7 50 1396 https://highway89.org/files/original/351f1dabe131f9e26552b997dff525eb.pdf cba2348b6dd780630f136889a059ed6f PDF Text Text 13058. GRAND CANYON HOTEL EN-TRANCE, YELLOW$rONE PARK. HAYNES·PHOTO. �R-54935 POST CARD [Stamp He re] Domestic, Jc MESSAGE . ADDRESS . foreign, 2c � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1816">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1816</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. 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Title A name given to the resource Grand Canyon Hotel entrance postcard, Yellowstone Park, ca. 1920 Description An account of the resource Hand-colored tinted photograph postcard of Grand Canyon Hotel Entrance, Yellowstone Park, ca. 1920. Number 13058. Haynes, St. Paul official photographer of Yellowstone National Park. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haynes, Frank J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Haynes, Jack Ellis Subject The topic of the resource Yellowstone National Park Hotels Tourism Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Haynes, St. Paul Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Yellowstone National Park Wyoming United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University. Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 WY 014 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1WY_014 https://highway89.org/files/original/422dd21677a7e32cc6831c898d6b8ac9.pdf 9f5165c6b615077ea8e248af4f035831 PDF Text Text NO. 214. GRAND CANYON HOTEL LOUNGE STAIRCASE-YELLOWSTONE PARK. HAYNES-PHOTO. �R-64136 POST CARD Il i MES:;; A G[ ADDRESS. StWIlP Here] I 1( I fore ign. 2c J L Domes!" I � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1825">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1825</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Height Height of digital item in pixels 2180 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3450 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 600 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 4159601567 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 7109346 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Canyon hotel postcard, lounge staircase, Yellowstone Park, ca. 1920 Description An account of the resource Hand-colored tinted photograph postcard of Grand Canyon hotel, lounge staircase, Yellowstone Park, ca. 1920. Number 214. Haynes, St. Paul official photographer of Yellowstone National Park. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haynes, Frank J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Haynes, Jack Ellis Subject The topic of the resource Yellowstone National Park Hotels Tourism Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Haynes, St. Paul Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Yellowstone National Park Wyoming United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University. Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 WY 011 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1WY_011 https://highway89.org/files/original/29c1ce1bb4d8bc100dc55ebaf64a3c79.pdf ce52b0bb393e198c280965c16979b615 PDF Text Text William Helm 977 Hillcrest Logan UT 84321 ��~~(}~~/~ ~/~~~lrI • - . ~. ~-/~~~~~J~ '~r-~a-<t-~~~ ~ Urv-<- r~' iJf ~~ ~ ~ d-. ~) t~ -z:;L. ~ c..:~ ~r- ~ ~ -z;L~ ~" ~ ~ L-T Iv'- ~~;t;Lc: , ~~~.~ ~r-"Z~f~~' ~ ~ ~~J~)~A_ Y? -:;;t~t'~~ . .M-~ ~~ .-t& ~r~~J~ ~ " "<- ~/~ .~~ ~~~~'~7- ~~~~""-~ p~ Wx.J ~~---f~ r ~J~~~ . ~ ~~ Y~ ~~(~.~~~ ~ r ~ /t~C/~ ___ vI-. ~~ ~~ -t;; .~/(~.J~,,_ () I ~ ::;:;::;- ~- ~~~ ~- - -- -~~ / -7 ~~i~ '~ ~_ ~~~<n.aLo~~~d-J ~ a. . ~ -c;;k~· if~~~ ~~~-/~~?0'n ��� Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/77">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/77</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000. Checksum 1695586601 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 1647714 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from William Helm discouraging certain changes to the Logan River Description An account of the resource Correspondence from William Helm to Rudy Lukez discouraging certain changes to the Logan River for the benefit of the local fish, plant, and animal life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Helm, William Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah) Aquatic resources--Utah--Logan River Fishery resources Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-01-19 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 9 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB27_Fd9_Page_5.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/a9e48df6398d0f9a81135b07bfecbdc1.jpg 0b2ba135c5d47e70f75def502079b0e6 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/197">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/197</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ricks Springs, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1978 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Ricks Spring. Gift of the Herald Journal, September 1978. Black and white photograph (7.5 x 9.5 in) mounted on board Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herald Journal (Firm) Subject The topic of the resource Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Ricks Spring (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2316 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2316 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. September 1978 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1978-09 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/05000b787d127fdff1a5e6262eef75e0.pdf a783e49070c82fce5c1ea0b353524e93 PDF Text Text ClOd Hill MEMORANDUM TO: Stan Nuffer Interdisciplinary Team File FROM: Mark Hill DATE: December 19, 1986 SUBJECT: Resource Value of Logan River PROJECT: B21163.FO At the last Interdisciplinary Team meeting a question was raised concerning the perceived "value" of the Logan River. It is a generally accepted public, state, and federal agency view that the Logan River is a sensjtjve and valuable natural ~ource. This viewpoint has evo~ed over time and i~_derived 'from three se arate ers ectives : ~recreational value~ conomic yalueL an iolo ical value. The river can be examined from each of these perspectives in order to understand the value, sensitivity, and importance credited to it. RECREATIONAL VALUE .. The Logan River has been cl~ssified by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources as a a II - H' h Priorit Stream has been placed on this agency's Unique Stream List. These actions by the UDWR reflect the Logan River's unique fishery and aquatic habitat as well as the stream's ability to sustain high quality, wild populations of salmonids. At the present time the Logan River above the impoundments is managed as a wild trout fishery. A self-sustaining trout fishery has numerous and relatively narrow habitat requirements at various life stages; consequently, the fishery is sensitive to any degradation or alteration of water quality and stream morphology. Fishing pressure is also a key factor in maintaining a wild trout population, and angling must be managed appropriately. Throughout the state of Utah there are a limited number of stream miles classified as Class I or II fisheries. The Logan River is also unique in that it is both a high priority and an urban fishery. Nowhere else in Utah is a wild trout fishery located so close t Q _ rna J ~r metro olitan area. Cona sequently, the recreational value of the Logan River is substantial. �MEMORANDUM to Stan Nuffer Page 2 December 19, 1986 B21163.FO The intensive recreational use of Logan River is shown in Figure 1 as the estimated past, present, and future number of fishing days. The generally steady rise in fishing days reflects the population increase in Cache County and metropolitan Logan City over the last 35 years. In addition to the river's accessibility to a large number anglers, it serves as a Datural laborat9£Y for Utah State University. The Logan River is used to train students in fish and wildlife, hydrology, forestry, archaeology, geology, engineering, and environmental field techniques. Numerous studies, theses, and dissertations have been carried out using the river's environmental features. ~f ECONOMIC VALUE Although fishing pressure is heavy on Logan River, excellent catches have been made (such as brown trout weighing up to 36 pounds). The mystique of "big trout" combined with the opportunity to catch the bag limit make the Logan River a preferred fishery for anglers. As such, the river generates a substantial amount of spending by anglers and is a valuable economic asset both to the state of Utah and Cache Val ey~ Table 1 shows the past, present, and future amount of money spent annually to fish the Logan River. In 1970 the river become a million-dollar fishery. During the 40-year period shown in Table 1, over $68 million dollars will be spent by Logan River anglers. Based on the river's length of 30 miles, about $30,000 was expended in 1985 for each mile of stream. Historical creel census data indicates that over 47 percent of the fish harvested are taken bet\veen DeWi tt Sp'ring--and -the mouth of Beaver Creek -.---------------~-- �70 ~ 60 0 0 0 .- 50 ~ en > oCt C (!) 2 :I: en 40 V LL 30 v v / ~ ............... .............. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ......... 11""'" /- 20 1950 1955 1960 1965 1970 1975 1980 1985 1990 YEAR Figure 1 SOURCE: UDWR creel census data and regression analysis. B21163.FO ESTIMATES PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE RECREATIONAL FISHING ON LOGAN RIVER �MEMORANDUM to Stan Nuffer Page 4 December 19, 1986 B21163.FO Table 1 Estimated Past, Present, and Future Expenditures by Anglers on Logan River b 0 Year Fisherman Days 1950 1960 1965 1970 197.5 1980 1982 1985 1990 26,684 42,801 51,206 a 48,219 a 52,227 a 56,235 53,748 a 60,244 a 64,252 Cost/Da~ Expenditure $ 2.99 b 6.81 12.55 b 22.10 b 31.67 b 41.22 45.04 C50. ]~~ 60.34 $ 79,785 291,475 642,635 1,065,640 1,654,029 2,318,007 2,420,810 3,059,190 3,876,966 a UDWR creel census data and regression analysis (r=0.87) b UDWR annual cost factor and regression analysis (r=0.73) Another economic factor is the investment value by the state of Utah. The UDWR, from 1960 through 1980, annually stocked the Logan River with brown and rainbow trout. An average of 36,612 trout were stocked each year at an estimated investment of $732,000 (based on an average cost of $l/fish over 20 years). Additional investment value has been made by the UDWR and the Forest Service as labor and expenses for management and study programs. BIOLOGICAL VALUE The Logan River supports four salmonid species: brown trout, cutthroat trout, rainbow trout, and mountain whitefish. The relative abundance and distribution of these species varies by stream reach. In general, however, the river above Right Fork has a smaller brown trout and whitefish population with a larger cutthroat and rainbow population than does the area below. Table 2 shows some historical data that indicates the general quality and health of the Logan River fishery over time. From 1948 to 1982 the catch rate and total numbers of fish caught has remained remarkably similar. This also indicates that management efforts have been generally successful. �MEMORANDUM to Stan Nuffer Page 5 December 19, 1986 B21163.FO K-factors or coefficient of condition are a measure of fish health or condition. It is also a measure of energy transfer through trophic levels and K-factors ~ 1.0 for trout po ulations indicate that fish e ' ot_ sxres ed b y a lack f food base . In the case of Logan River, K-factors for three sizes of trout have remained relatively constant over a 20-year period. Taken as a whole, these data indicate stable and suitable habitat conditions. Table 2 Historical Logan River Fisheries Data Year Measure Catch Rate (fish/hr) Total Number Fish Caught K-Factors: 0-199 rom 200-275 rom 276-350 rom 1948 1952 1972 1982 0.61 0.60 30,850 32,012 1.83 1.73 1.64 1.82 1.50 1.59 Fundamentally, highly valuable features of trout habitat are the overhanging banks and the fish pools associated with streambanks and bank vegetation. A Logan River habitat inventory showed that in 1962 these conditions did exist along Logan River segments that have not had channel encroachment. Along river segments encroached up to 30 years ago, no valuable streambank-associated fish pools and cover were found. Following on-site encroachment impact 30 years ago, the substitution of "junk" pools for the valuable bank- and vegetation-associated pools and cover occurred. Today one of the major limiting factors in the physical environment is the lack of good quality pools. Table 3 shows the results of a Forest Service habitat study performed on Logan River in 1966. The percent of optimum habitat (based on pool, substrate, bank conditions, and other environmental factors) is shown in comparison to other, regional streams. Compared to other streams, the Logan River exhibits high biological value for a salmonid fishery. �MEMORANDUM to Stan Nuffer Page 6 December 19, 1986 B21163.FO Table 3 Comparison of Habitat (%) for Regional Trout Streams Stream Fish Creek Montpelier Creek Fifth Water Diamond Fork McCoy Creek Sixth Water Currant Creek Wolf Creek Rock Creek rk Duchesne West o an River (entire Taft Creek North Fork Duchesne Hades Creek State Average Width Percent of Optimum Habitat Wyoming Idaho Utah Utah Idaho Utah Utah Utah Utah Utah Utah Nevada Utah Utah 16 13 8 22 23 15 21 8 40 22 37 7 36 10 64 62 51 49 49 48 46 44 41 50 37 33 25 SUMMARY The data, information, and statements presented in this memorandum must be taken as general comments, subject to revision when a more detailed analysis is performed. Nevertheless, this discussion does validate the position that the Logan River is a valuable resource when viewed from recreational, economic, and biological perspectives. BOT538/011 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/56">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/56</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000. Checksum 1514713720 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 3398765 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence on the value of the Logan River Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Mark Hill to Stan Nuffer explaining the resource value of the Logan River highlighting three perspectives: recreational, economic, and biological. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hill, Mark Subject The topic of the resource Logan River (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Rivers--Recreational use--Utah--Logan Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-12-19 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Utah United States Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 4 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB27_Fd4_Page_3.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/e56c9285f2796f62e1bfe7dc49d529da.pdf 2b9bdf96a5276651e0c88a81c4485039 PDF Text Text • EDUC 677 Ethnographic Study: Stanley Holmes Summer 1997 P rofiles in Activism: T hree Citizens Involved in the Loean Ca nyon Controve rsy Abstract: Thi s qualitative research project involved a multi-case study of adult citizens involved in a local political controversy. Following background research, structured interviews were conducted with three core subjects to identify shared character and bie-historical traits. Int roduction: ... brief his tory of the issue In the spring of 1997, the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) began the latest stage of a highway construction project that has been a source of political controversy in the Logan I Bear Lake region for three decades. UDOT's plan to rebuild and expand Route 89 through Logan Canyon spawned a spirited debate among citizens and officials; a debate that may continue for some time. The controversy stretches back at least to the 19605, which saw UDOT's widening of the road in lower Logan Canyon. and the dawn of a national environmental movement whose local manifestation led to delays and adjustments in subsequent highway construction in the canyon. For the first time, UnOT was required to develop an environmental impact statement on its proposed construction. Area citizens formed a group, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon (CPLC). that opposed the original UDOT plan then. after modifications, agreed in 1995 to participate on the advisory team working with UDOT and other agencies toward an acceptable design plan. CPLC's decision to provisionally accept the revised UDOT plan led to a schi sm in the environmental community that saw the formation of the Logan Canyon Coaliti on (LCC), which proceeded to take legal action aimed at minimizing Logan Canyon highway construction to little more than bridge repairs. In early 1997 a third citizens' group, the Logan Canyon Improvement Group (LCIG), was �,. \ -2- \ created to counter the environmental groups and promote significant expansion of the Logan Canyon highway. At the time of this research report, in August 1997, UDOT construction crews were well into the repair and upgrading of two bridges in the canyon. i I ... scientific relevance of the issue· The ongoing Logan Canyon controversy provides a unique opportunity to study democracy in action; to examine the dynamics of individuals participating as citizens in the process of making decisions that affect their community. This study seeks to better understand why some citizens choose to become actively involved in the political system . At a time in U.S. history when fewer than half the eligible voters bother to cast a ballot in national eJections, I hope to identify key factors that motivate the politically-active minority to dedicate their personal time to the political fray . ... researcher's interest: I am a doctoral candidate at the Utah State University College of Education, currently on sabbatical leave from my social science teaching position at Alta High School, in Sandy, Utah. I wi ll spend the next nine months in India, studying models of citizenship education in the schools of that democratic nation. "Citi zenship" is a key concept underlying my interest in education. In my opinion, the most important function of American public schools is the generation of socially-responsible and productive citizens. My favorite aspect of being a teacher has been the sense that I facilitate the acquisition of infonnation and thinking skills by the next wave of decision-makers in our democratic system . ... An overview of this report: This report covers background infonnation about the political controversy, identifies methodological questions, issues, and procedures that were involved, summarizes biographical �• -3- Ii data on the core subjects, compares similarities and differences in traits of the core subjects, discusses findings and additional research issues, and provides extended comparative data in the appendices. Methodology : Literature Review: Literature concerning various political and technical components of the Logan Canyon controversy were obtained from several sources that included archival files at the Logan Herald Journal newspaper, publications of the Utah Department of Transportation. and newletters of the involved environmental organizations. Owing to time constraints, no literature search was conducted to located similar studies that may have been conducted elsewhere. There was also no effort to build a literature base of research that has addressed aspects of po litical activism. The project rationale, conceptual approach, and imple mentation plan are my responsibility. Resea rch Q uestio ns: While the controversy over the highway through Logan Canyon provided the topical setting for conducting the study. my essential focus was on personal attributes (traits) of persons who have chosen to get involved. From that standpoint, the Logan Canyon controversy is peripheral to the main thrust of this study. Logan Canyon was selected as a vehicle for studying politicallyactive citizens because of its continued high-profile salience in the region served by Utah State University, and the ease of access to key informants. This study looked specifically for identifiable personal character and bio-historical traits that lead indi viduals to commit volunteer time and efforts to a political cause. The research question, then. was: What character and/or bio-historical traits do politically-active adults have in common? �• -4- Research Issues: ... researcher bias Several biases were brought by me to the threshold of this research project. First, I consider activists a special breed. Whatever their political stripe, I consider them more important to democracy than those nominal citizens who don't even bother to vote. This is in part an ego-based bias, since I've participated in several campaigns myself, and since most of my friends are activists of some degree. This type of bias might have led to questions and interview style that were not sufficiently critical or aggressive. In deciding who would he the core-profiled subjects, I arbitrarily narrowed the field to those whose involvement in the Logan Canyon controversy is completely voluntary. Despite the availability of persons with potentially more knowledge of, and greater involvement with, the issue, I ruled out anyone with a job connection to, or direct financial interest in, the controversy. In my view. volunteers are the foundation of citizenship. r arbitrarily decided to have a representative from each of the three local citizens groups serve as a core-profile subject, and did not consider selecting anyone who may be active but is not a member of one of the groups. This was done as a matter of expedience. 1 arbitrarily decided to have at least one member of each sex represented in the group of core profile subjects, and was pleased at the wide age range of the core profile subj ects. The main concern here was achieving more character diversity. Lastly, I must confess to being anything but neutral on environmental issues. The environmentalist in my pantheon of heroes is Edward Abbey. Fortunately for this study, the particular environmental issue --Logan Canyon-- is of marginal relevance to my core research goal. I asked the core-profile subjects exactly the same questions, and tried to maintain the same interv iew demeanor with them all . ... time constraint A proper ethnographic study would entail at least several months worth of investigation and analysis. Since the initiation and final report of this study were required within the timeframe of �., • -5- summer quarter, the entire process has been expedited to meet the time constraint. Hopefully. the data gathering has been broad and deep enough for my narrative and analysis to place the issue, and the actors, into a meaningful context for the reader. Procedures: This study employed a two-stage approach toward data collection that spanned the months of June, July, and August 1997. In the first stage, I gathered information on the Logan Canyon situation from newspaper files at the Logan Herald-Journal, UDOT project documents, and literature from citizens groups involved on different sides of the controversy. This stage involved conducting purposive, semi-structured interviews with persons I determined to be key informants. Their names were gleaned from news articles, and from referrals by other informants. The purpose of stage one was to deepen my background knowledge of the issue through a process that would afford some triangulation validity, and to make sure I understood the different perspectives from which involved parties view the controversy. Travelling between interviews, I also had an opportunity to drive through Logan Canyon and witness both the natural splendor and the challenging highway conditions that figure into the debate over what to do. Background information was gained in interviews with state and local officials, and with members of the three local citizens groups active in this issue. Key informants in an official capacity included the mayor of the Bear Lake community of Garden City, Utah, and the Utah Department of Transportation's head engineer for the Logan Canyon project. Interviewees representing the citizens groups included: two members of the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon (CPLC); three members of the Logan Canyon Coalition (LCC); and one member of the Logan Canyon Improvement Group (LCIG). I also gained valuable information and insights from LCIG members who spoke at the group's open meeting on July 21st, in Logan, Utah. All group representatives were interviewed in Logan, with the exception of one LCC member, who was interviewed in Ogden. The first stage interviews were semi-structured, in that a questionnaire was used that asked �-6- both specific and open-ended questions. I read the questions, and took notes as the subjects responded. No one objected to my tape-recording the conversations, although several asked me to tum off the recorder for moments of off-the-record infonnation. The respondents were first asked to summarize the history of the Logan Canyon controversy. Thi s data was used as an indicator of their depth of knowledge and perspective, and as a means to broaden my own understanding of the issues. They were then asked to identify the main players (key actors) on different sides of the debate. Questions that followed sought a description of the interviewee's position on Logan Canyon highway construction, details of their personal involvement, and the main motivation(s) for their participation. On several occasions. responses to these inqui ries led the interview into unexpected areas, such as connections drawn to the Provo Canyon controversy. states' rights issues, and organizational dynamics of both UDOT and the citizens' groups. I imagine one could write a book about the many political aspects and implications of what has transpired in the broader context of the logan Canyon controversy. In the second stage of this study. I narrowed the focus to the personal hi story and attributes of three individuals, each representing one of the three citizens' groups. All three met the criteri a of being sufficiently informed about Logan Canyon, all three have dedicated significant volunteer time to the controversy. and none have ajob or direct financial interest in its resolution. Each of these individuals was interviewed twice, using the first-stage and core-profile questionnaire fonns. The pseudonyms of the persons I selected for core profiles are: "Ezra", of the lCIG; "Vickie",ofCPlC; and "David", oflCC. The second stage, "core profile" interviews were more structured than the first stage interviews. In the interests of validity. I wanted to be sure that each subj ect received the same specific questions as the others. The four-page core profile questionnaire took between 60 - 90 minutes to complete. As was the case with the first stage, I asked questions from the questionnaire and noted responses on the same fonn. No one objected to my tape-recording the interviews. None of the questions mentioned logan Canyon. The three core respondents were asked �-7- biographical information that included: date and place of birth, residences and travels, education and work hi story, and details of their families of origin and procreation. I asked about parents', siblings" spouses', and childrens' occupations and education, as well as political affiliation, philosophy. issues, and activities. The last segment of the interview delved into the respondent's own hi story of civic and political activity, events and individuals who shaped their political beliefs, personal definition of "citi zenship" and conception of civic responsibi lity. Each was asked to explain their own motivation for political action, and whether they feel they've made a difference. Also raised were questions about levels of civic and political involvement in the United States today. and why many citizens do not get involved. They were asked whether the local (Cache Valley, Utah) culture faci litates or inhibits political expression. and if they had personally experienced hostility, stress, or other negative consequences of their civic and political activities. Finally, the three citizen activists were asked to identify the most rewarding aspects of their civic and political activities~ and each was asked how slhe wants to be remembered by hislher great grandchildren. Bioer'phic,' Sketches "Ezra" was born in Paris, Idaho on August 26, 19 12. Raised in Preston, Idaho, Ezra has res ided in Logan, Utah since 1932. He was stationed in Europe during World War 1I. Ezra worked almost 40 years as a linotype setter at the Herald Journal newspaper, in Logan, until a serious inj ury in 1974 forced a career change. He took carpentry and remodeling jobs until his retirement in 1996, at age 84. Ezra is now engaged in full-time political activism: a self-described "rabble rouser." His parents both worked for the postal service, and raised three chi ldren, of whom Ezra was the middle chi ld. Ezra comes from a solidly conservative Republican fami ly. He 'has kept that tradition alive since casting his first ballot (against FOR) in 1936. Ezra's fathe r spoke out on a variety of political issues. and had hi s mother's support ... much as Ezra has the tireless support �-8- \ of his wife today. He credits his parents with having most influenced hi s political beliefs. That generation of Ezra's family also featured two cousins [one paternal, one maternal] in Idaho who were politically outspoken. While Ezra's brother has been active in conservative politics as well, Ezra says hi s sole child (a stepson) prefers noninvolvement, believing that "all politicians are liars". Ezra's political interests range across a wide spectrum, and he is well-known as a regular writer of oftimes provocative letters to the Herald lournal and other Utah newspapers. Over many years of political activism, he has served as a Republican Party preci nct officer, taken part in the citizens effort to prevent construction of a Logan golf course and, most recently, co-founded the Logan Canyon Improvement Group. Once asked to run for local office, Ezra declined , stating that he preferred to remain an "outsider". Still, his living room wall boasts several certificates of appreciation from local and national organizations impressed with hi s efforts in the political realm. "Vickie" was born in Montreal, Canada, in October of 1942. She grew up and attended uni versity in Canada, then moved to the United States in the 1960s. Vickie fi rst arrived in Cache Valley, Utah in 1970, and has lived in Logan continuously since 1976. With degrees in biology and psychology, she has worked at Duke University and, having taken a career break to rai se a family, is now a school psychologist in the Logan area. Vickie became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1995. Explaining that she was raised in a "very 50s", apolitical family, Vickie is not aware of her parents' political affiliations. They voted, she says, but "never talked politics." Talking politics with her brother and sister is a challenge, since they both remain in Canada. Eldest of the three, Vickie is not familiar with Canadian politics, and her siblings are only slightly more aware of politics in the States. She characterizes her brother as conservative, and knows that her sister follows political issues that affect her business. Vickie describes herself as a liberal Democrat, adding that her Canadian-born husband shares the same values. Asked her son's and daughter's political affilia tion and philosophy, she would only di sclose that "they're not Young Republicans." Her daughter has worked for a college �.' -9- environment center, and her son follows zoning issues at his home in Park City, Utah. Vickie has a history of involvement with Canadian and U.S. environmental groups; most recently. Citi zens for the Protection of Logan Canyon. She was first sensitized to citizen initiative in U.S. politics in 1968, when a friend at Duke University sent money to support the campaign of Eugene McCarthy. Vietnam War protests also played an important role in her political socialization. "You couldn't help but take a side," she says. Lacking political direction from her parents, Vickie built a political philosophy from such authors as Paul Hawkins, Robertson Davies, and environmentalist Wallace Stegner. "David" was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, on June 9, 1970. He has lived in Logan, Utah since 1992. with the exception of 18 months spent in Jackson, Wyoming. David attended post-secondary schools in Utah. and is certified as an emergency medical technician and nursing assistant. He has worked with troubled youth as an outdoor acti vities instructor at Aspen Achievement Academy. in Bicknell. and is currently a mail carrier for the postal service. In his off hours, he volunteers time with handicapped children at a Logan elementary school, and with the science department at Logan Hi gh Schoo!.. David is the middle of five children --four boys, one girl-- raised by a father who works for a Salt Lake construction company and a mother who hand les mi ssionary assignments at the LDS (Monnon) Church headquarters. He comes from a solidly Republican family that ranges in philosophy from conservative father to David and an elder brother at the liberal end. Both parents have actively campaigned for Governor Mike Leavitt, and David's mother is past president of the local PTA. He admits, though, that his most po litically influentia1 mentor has been his elder brother, who was president of the University of Utah Young Republicans and supports liberal Republican candidates. A younger brother does volunteer work for Senator Robert Bennett. David is the family environmentalist. Most of the others "hate enviros", he says. While he is also concerned about the country's fiscal health, David's political initiatives have been linked primarily to the environment. He was involved in debates over bicycle lanes in Logan and �" -10- Jackson, has contributed time to the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, and now serves as a spokesman for the Logan Canyon Coalition. His main concern is the "frontier mentality" of older residents who are willing to accept environmental destruction in return for jobs. David is supported by a like-minded wife, who divides her volunteer hours between Lee. a rape crisis center, and learning Spanish to assist in a local literacy program. They plan to have chi ldren someday. Similarities - shared biographical features : All three subjects ..• ..have lived at least 20 years in Utah . .. travelled around the United States, and outside the country . ..graduated from high school and received subsequent education training . .. have worked in jobs involving significant social interaction . ..were raised in a two-parent family . .. have had at least three siblings, including at least one sister and one brother. .. are married to a spouse who is at least a high school graduate. and who has held a full-time job during the marriage . . .have had parents that voted . .. have at least one sibling who actively follows one or more political issues, and has either personally --or is married to someone who has-- held a political position, ranging from college Young Republicans president to party precinct chainnan to local zoning board member. ..identify with a political party, and are clear about their own political philosophy. .. share their spouse's political philosophY· �.. -11- .. have a spouse who actively follows one or more political issues, and who participates with the respondent in at least one political activity, including volunteer involvement with the respondent's Logan Canyon focus group . .. are interested in environmental issues, plus at least one additional political issue . .. have been involved with other political causes prior to involvement in the Logan Canyon debate . .. participated in the Scouts [for Vickie, the Canadian Girl Guides] as children . .. had political beliefs shaped, in part, by economic issues ranging from labor laws to taxes . .. believe that participation is a key aspect of citizenship. For Ezra, citizenship is "a privilege ... a freedom" , "You should vote or you're a fool, and should keep your mouth shut." According to Vickie, "If you're going to be part of a community, you've got to participate." David feels that citizenship means "dedication to the community, without the expectation of reimbursement," adding that "Ezra ... is a good example" of citizenship . .. feel a personal sense of civic responsibility that requires action. To Ezra, it's an issue of "free agency"; and one must share information and ideas outside of the immediate family. Civic responsibility means being "good neighbors." Vickie holds that "voting is important, although it doesn't mean much; but, what is the alternative?" She says that "if you see a problem, you need to deal with it." David's sense of civic responsibility involves "donating time and money; interacting one-on-one with others in the community." .. are motivated to political action, in part, to right a perceived wrong. Ezra admits that there are "things that rub me wrong", and it's up to him to "flush out the termites." Vickie also notices when "things aren't right." "I feel like I can analyze the situation," she says, and feels she can have an impact. Plus, "I enjoy doing it, and the people I meet." David gets angry when he and his group are "mischaracterized" by opponents. In �-12- additional, he feels he is "very fortunate" and therefore obligated to work on behalf of those less fortWlate . .. can cite at least one political accomplishment ('victory'). For Ezra, it was rallying people against the golf course. Then there is the following he has generated among fellow residents. through his letters to the newspapers. Vickie is satisfied that Logan Canyon is being dealt with differently than if she had taken no action. And David feel s his input to the bike lanes debates at least caused people "to view things in a different light. " .. sense that there is a general attitude toward politics shared by the majority of Cache Valley residents, although the perceived nature of this attitude varied among respondents. From Ezra's perspective, "too many people want George to do it. " "People are afraid of what others will think of them ." Vickie senses a mono lithic political culture. "The vast majority of people think alike," she says. According to David, "it's the provincial mentality lhat I love and hate." "I Jike the slower pace," he says, and it's nice that you can talk to your neighbors. But, he is concerned that for many, it is "okay to be nai ve about the impacts of growth." .. menti oned positive social interaction as a rewarding aspect of their civic and political activities. People call Ezra and ask, "when are you going to write another letter?" [Look for it in the Herald Journal every 6th of the month.] Vickie says she enjoys her involvement because "I learn new things, and meet interesting people." For David, it's "getting people to look at something in a different light", and "putting a smile on someone's face." Dissimilarities - biographical differences: Ezra is the sole military veteran. �.. " -13 David and Vickie are college educated [she with an advanced degree] , as are their spouses, w hile Ezra and his wife are not. Ezra and Vickie have children. David does not. Ezra's and David's parents engaged in politics beyond voting, whi le Vickie's did not. Ezra's parents were both conservative, David's split conservative I moderate, and Vickie's "apolitical. " Ezra's stepson is not politically active. Vickie's two chi ldren are. David is child less. Ezra claims a conservative political philosophy. while Vickie and David identify themselves as liberal s. Ezra and David belong to the LDS (Mormon) Church. Vickie does not. Each cites different life events that influenced their political beliefs. For Ezra, it was an adverse reaction to the liberal policies of Franklin D. Roosevelt, along with anger at the minimum age labor law that deprived his farm of the "best beet workers." In Vickie's case, it was the Vietnam War and Watergate that sparked her interest. Dav id says "the first time I debated an issue" was when Governor Leavitt kept the tax on food , but cut property taxes. He adds that he was impressed by accounts of President Harry Truman's political principl es. Ezra and David both follow the pronouncements of political commentator Rush Limbaugh, although Ezra co unts himself a supporter and David simply appreciates Limbaugh's ability to "frame issues in a different light." Vickie did not mention Mr. Limbaugh. They have different ideas about the level of significance of their individual actions. Ezra points proudly to the certificates on his wall , attesting to the impact he's had . Although Vickie feels the impact of one person is rather small , when "the choice is to do something, or to do nothing," she rejects the latter. The important question is o ne of conscienc~ . David claims that, in the context of Logan Canyon, "we are saving the taxpayers money ... although the aesthetic gai n is not that great." �-14- Ezra and Vickie agreed that it is unfortunate more Americans aren't involved in civic and political activities. Ezra says that "people can make a difference, if they get active." On the other hand, David accepts that "some people won't ever get involved. no matter how bad things get." It has always been that way, he maintains. The three have different notions of why many citizens do not get involved. Ezra says that people think they "won't make a difference," and that their opinion doesn't count. Vickie adds that "people feel disenfranchised; they don't know what to do, or how to do it." She also notes that would-he participants know they're "up against powerful vested interests." Vickie and David agree that people have less time to get involved, because of jobs. He says it is important to remember that "some people make their contributions through work", and that "we also need to be sure we include people's church involvement" in the equation. Both Vickie and David spoke to the issue of campaign finance reform. Ezra did not raise that particul ar issue. Ezra and David said they have experienced hosti lity or other negat ive consequences from their civic and political activities. In Ezra's case, it has been l etters~to ~the ~editor that have critici zed him . He is energi zed by the criticism, though, and claimed "I'm real thickskinned. " David said that his car was egged a couple of times, and he sometimes tires of being called an "outsider" and "eco-terrori st" because he has different views. When asked how they want to be remembered by their great grandchildren, Vickie and David prefer a political epitaph. She would like them to know that she "was part of a movement to save natural areas." David hopes that a generation yet to appear wiU remember him as a "fighter for the future" who helped set things aside for them to enjoy. Ezra just wants his stepson's grandchildren to remember him "as their real [great] grandpa." �" '. -15- Additional Observations Ezra and David, who are on opposite sides of environmental issues, both affiliate with the Republican Party. as do their siblings. Vickie and David. who are relatively close in environmental perspective, affiliate with different po litical parti es; she is Democrat, he is Republican. Discussion of Results: The core-profile interview process yielded a broad set of character and bio-historical traits shared by the three subj ects. It is unlikely that all o f these commonly-held traits are causally- related to political activism Were I to extend this line of inquiry into the realm of quantitative research, I would probably seek to operationalize the following traits as variables in a broad survey of political activists. • number of siblings • clarity about political party identification • clarity about politi cal philosophy • supportive spouse • previous political involvement • concept of citi zenship • like/dislike o f social interaction From the standpoint of qualitative research, I would likely seek the replication of this activity, using a similar procedure with different political issues in other communities. Other Research Issues: The fin al stage of research for this report involved "member checking", in which each of the core.profi le subjects was given a draft of the report that included the comparative responses document that is attached, in pseudonymic format, as Appendix B. Unfortunately, the copy given the core·profil e subjects used their real names, which was admittedly a procedural ··if not �-16- ethical-- flaw on my part. During the course of member checking, minor corrections were made to the text. At this point, one of the core-profile subjects expressed strong discomfort at my mention of the possibility that the report might he published as a human interest story in the local newspaper. The continued political sensitivity of issues related to Logan Canyon was cited as the reason for the individual's concern. I agreed that I would not use this report as the basis for a newspaper article, and have marked the front page "Not For Local Publication." �Appendix A: Core Profile Questionnaire Profiles in Activism: Logan Canyon Co re Profile Name: Birthdate: Birthplace: Residences: Travels: Education: (spec. training, degrees) Work hi story: Current occupation: Family [of origin] : Parents' occupations: Siblings (in binh order): Siblings' occupations: Family [procreation] : Spouse's education: Spouse' s occupation: Children: ... education: Date: Location: �-, -2... occupations: Political Background Family [of origin]: Parents' political affiliations: Parents' political philosophies: Parents' key political issues: Parents' political activity: Siblings' po litical affi liations: Siblings' political philosophies: Siblings' key political issues: Siblings' political activity: Exceptional behavior, in the extended family: Family [procreation] : Spouse's political affi liations: Spouse's political phil osophies: �--3- Spouse's key political issues: Spouse's political activity: Childrens' political affi liations: Childrens' political philosophies: Childrens' key political issues: Childrens' political activity: Personal political affi liations: Personal political philosophies: Personal key political issues: Personal political activity: ... first involvement in politics: Personal Politics [continued] : Membership in service-oriented community groups: (egs. scouts, school, church, adult groups, issues groups) Key life events that influenced your political beliefs: Key persons who influenced your political beliefs: �., 4· How do you define "citizenship"? How would you describe your personal sense of civic responsibility? What motivates you to take political action? How much of a difference do you think you make, from a political standpo int? ... Some things you have accomplished: What is your feeling about the level of civic and political involvement in the U.S. today? Why do you think many citizens do not gel involved? What civic I political behaviors are most needed in the United States today? To what extent does the culture of Cache Valley. Utah faci litate or inhibit political expression? Have you experienced hostility, stress, or other negative consequences of your civic and political activities? What do you feel have been the most rewarding aspects of your civic / political activities? How would you like to be remembered by your great grandchildren? �. , " Appendix B: Core Profile Data, Annotated Responses Profiles in Activism: Logan Canyon Core Profiles Name: COMPOSITE E ~ Ezra .. .interviewed 7-9-97 and 7-30-97 V ~ Vickie .. .interviewed 7-10-97 and 7-3 1-97 D ~ David .. .interviewed 7-9-97 and 7-30-97 Birthdate: E ~ August 26, 1912 V ~ October, 1942 D ~ June 9, 1970 Birthplace: E ~ Paris, Idaho V = Montreal , Canada D ~ Salt Lake City Residences: E ~ Preston, Idaho .. , Logan, Utah since 1932 V = raised in Montreat 1960s in N. Carolina; Cache Valley I Logan, 1970-71 & 1976 to present D = raised in Salt Lake City; lived in Alta, Utah ... then Logan for 3 years, Jackson, WY for 2 years, and returned to Logan Travels: E = All states of the USA ; Mexico, Canada; southern Europe in Army during WWIl V = both U.S. coasts, Canada, Europe, Australia D = extended road trips to the east coast U.S. and Pacific Northwest; Canada, Mexico Education: (spec. Iraining, degrees) E = Preston H.S. graduate; radio operator and cook in Army V = high school and college in Canada .. B.S. in ChemistryfBiology; Masters in Psych. USU D ~ high school grad (SLC); attended Salt Lake Community College, the University of Utah, and Utah State University; gained EMT I CNA (certified nursing assistant) at Bridgerland Vocational Work history: E ~ linotype setter at Herald Journal from 1932 to 1974, with 3 year break during WWll . .injured hand in 1974; shifted to carpentry and remodeling until retirement in 1996. V = worked at Duke Univ. med. center, taught school; rai sed fami ly; reswned full-time work in 1985 D = jobs in the food service industry and construction ; provided outdoor experiences for troubled youth at Aspen Achievement Academy (Bicknell); U.S. Postal Service, 3 years �,. -2Current occupation: E = political activist V = school psychologi st in Cache County D = mail carrier Family [o f origin] : Parents' occupations: E = mother: post office worker, then homemaker fath er: postal stage driver; assessor, then city judge in Preston, Idaho V = father: engineer mother: lavvyer. homemaker D = father: office manager for Salt Lake construction company mother : mi ssionary assignments administrator at LDS Church headquarters Siblings (in birth order): E = three children: brother and sister; Ezra is middle child. V = three children: brother and sister; Vickie is eldest D = fi ve children: 3 brothers, I sister; David is middle chi ld. Siblings' occupations: E = sister (deceased) was teacher, slore owner, real estate agent. brother: (retired) defense worker, po lice chief in Preston, ID ; accountant, real estate V = brother: engineer sister: home economist D = brothers: eldest is lawyer; another is in real estate; youngest is an econ. major ("U") sister: just returned from LDS mi ss ion , and is psych. major at the "U" Family [procreation] : Spouse's education: E = high schoo l V = Ph.D. in animal behavior D = USU grad, seeking Masters in Cardiac Rehabi litation; certified EMT Spouse's occupation : E = retail sales; 30 years as proofreader, advertising at Herald Journal (met Ezra there) V = professor at USU D = clinical assistant and community educator for Planned Parenthood Children: E = one (from w ife 's previous marriage) V = two (son and daughter) D = none yet �.. -3- ... education: E ~ USU grad V = daughter: masters degree in journalism son: bachelors in environmental studies D ~N/A ... occupations: E = (retired) Thiokel employee V = daughter: journalist (writer) son: school teacher and ski instructor D ~ N/A Political Background Family [of origin]: Parents' political affiliations: E ~ both Republican (s!might ticket) V = not known D ~ both Republican Parents' political philosophies: E = conservative V ~ an apolitical famil y ("very 50s") o = father: conservative Republi can mother: moderate Republican Parents' key political issues: E = father advocated for "underdog"; comprehensive issues V ~ N/A D = father: pro-business issues; anti-abortion mother: morality issues (for example, anti-pornography); anti-abortion (pro-Life) Parents' political activity: E = father spoke out on Republican issues, with mother's support V = parents voted, but "never talked po litics" 0 = mother: PTA past president at elem. school mother and father: campaign volunteers for Mike Leavitt Siblings' political affiliations: E ~ both Republican V = doesn' t know (Canadian parties) o = all are Republican �-4- Siblings' political philosophies: E = both conservative V = brother: conservative sister: doesn' t know D = eldest hrother is liberal Republican other brothers and sister are moderate Republican Siblings' key political issues: E = brother: comprehensive Republican issues V = sister: issues that affect her business [Vickie and sister are unfamiliar with the other's political issues ... Canadian and U.S .] o = anti~environment ("all hate enviros", except eldest brother); all are anti-abortion Siblings' political activity: E = brother: Republican precinct chairman; letter-writing to newspaper, Congress sister: vice-chair of Republican precinct; husband was Franklin County assessor V = sister's husband has served on local zoning board 0 = eldest brother: "U" Young Republicans president; campaigned for liberal Republican Genevieve Atwood; did volunteer work in D.C. youngest brother: volunteered three years for Sen. Bob Bennett Exceptional behavior, in the extended family: E = maternal and paternal cousins politically outspoken in Idaho V = none D = eldest brother Family [procreat ion] : Spouse' s political affiliations: E = Republican V = "we have the same values" .. .1 assume this means Democrat D = Independent Spouse's political philosophies: E = conservative V = "we have the same values" .. .1 assume this means liberal D = liberal Spouse's key political issues: E = general interest V = environment D = reproductive rights �•• .. -5Spouse's political activity: E = attends all city and county council meetings; supports Ezra V = just became a U.S. citizen (from Canada); belongs to lots of grassroots organizations; seen as an expert; beli eves in building a strong knowledge base, cares what's going on D = volunteers for Lee and rape crisis group; learning Spanish to volunteer with Bridgerland Literacy Childrens' political affiliations: E ~ Republican V = doesn't know; daughter is a U.S . citizen, son is sti ll Canadian D~N/A Childrens' political philosophies: E = "all politicians are liars" V = "they're not Young Republicans" .. .1 assume this means liberal. D ~ N/A Childrens' key political issues: E = not involved V = personal economic issues; wage scales, for example D ~ N/A Childrens' po litical activity: E = not involved V = daughter: worked at environment ctr. at Univ. of Colorado son: fo llows zoning issues at home in Park City D ~ N/A Personal political affiliations: E = Republican V = Democrat D ~ Republican Personal political philosophies: E = conservative V ~ liberal D ~ liberal Personal key political issues: E = mostly domestic; local,state,national comprehensive V = environment; fairness issues, such as a decent minimum wage, and more pay for social service and education workers D = Baby Boomer impacts on social services [will bankrupt the fi scal system]; environmental destruction fo r j obs ... opposes "frontier mentality" of older residents, with "take, take, take" approach to environment �.. ., ·6· Personal political activity: E = participated in citizen effort to prevent golf course; Republican precinct officer; letter-writing, phone calls, networking, organizing; electioneering; won't run for office (prefers to be an outsider); founding member of LelG V = gained U.S. citizenship in 1995 (from Canada); has worked with the Canadian National Parks Association, Audubon Society, Sierra Club, and CPLC D = served with citizens advisory groups on bicycle lanes in Logan and Jackson, WY; volunteered for Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, and attended wilderness hearings; got involved with Lee last year ... first involvement in politics: E ~ 1936.. first voted (against FDR) V = while in North Carolina, K. became aware of the U.S. political system through a friend who sent a campaign contribution to Eugene McCarthy's campaign 0 = 1992 bike lanes issue in Logan Personal Politics [continued]: Membership in service-oriented community groups: (egs. scouts, school, church, adult groups, issues groups) E = boy scouts; active in LOS Church as stake dance director, high priest, "Smokin Oeacons" (bringing back inactive members); LCIG V ~ girl guides (Canadian girl scouts) 0 = Eagle Scout and assistant scoutmaster; worked with handicapped youth in high school; LOS teen service projects; volunteers at local elementary school (hyperacti ve kids) and high schoo l (science dept.), and with Alzheimer's patients at a local nursing home Key life events that influenced your political beliefs: E = FOR's election bothered him ; passage of minimum age work law deprived him of best beet workers (under 16) V = Watergate; Vietnam War protests ("you couldn't help but take a side"); awareness of stagflation in 1970s, and greed in the 1980s 0 = Gov. Leavitt opposed cutting the food tax, yet cut property taxes ... "the first time I debated on an issue."; getting ajob with retirement benefits, having to consider investments, and realizing systemic problems Key persons who influenced your political beliefs: E = father and mother V = authors, such as Paul Hawkins (Ecology of Commerce), Robertson Davies (Canadian), and environmentalist Wallace Stegner 0 = eldest brother; Pres. Harry Truman ("he was above money" ; pushed for accountability, and for the underdog, and saved the taxpayers money; Rush Limbaugh, who "frames issues in a different light", although M doesn't necessarily agree with him �.. . . -7How do you define "citizenship"? E = "a priviiege ... a freedom"; much violated; "you should vote or you're a fool, and should keep your mouth shut"; learn English; obey the laws; convicts should lose citizenship rights V = "participation". "If you're going to be part ofa community. you've got to participate." D = dedication to the community, without the expectation of reimbursement .. "Ezra Allred is a good example. "; "citizenship is being involved"; for example, donating time and resources to a non-profit organization How would you describe your personal sense of civic responsibi lity? E = free agency; one must share info and ideas outside of the immediate fami ly; good neighbors V = voting is important, although it doesn't mean much ... "what is the alternative?"; if you see a problem, you need to deal with it D = donating time and money; interacting one-on-one with others in the community; "Courtesy is contagious." ; "put a smile on a stranger's face" What motivates you to take political action? E = "things that rub me wrong"; follows the news closely; supporter of Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich. gets ideas from both; "flush out the termites" V = "Things aren't right," ... "1 feel like I can analyze the situation,""; feels she can have an impact; "I enjoy doing it, and the people I meet." D = anger, at the LCC and me personally being rnischaracterized; the feeling that I am very fortunate ["I'm so lucky"] , and therefore obligated to share with those less fortunate How much of a difference do you think you make, from a political standpoint? E = has received several awards (local and national) for participation V = "very little" (as an individual); but the choice is to do something, or to do nothing; K agrees it's a matter of conscience o = we are savi ng the taxpayers money [Logan Canyon as a pork barrel], although the aesthetic gain is not that great ...Some things you have accomplished: E = "beat that golf course"; people read and follow his letters V ~ Logan Canyon is being dealt with differently than if [I had taken] no action D = Jackson bike lanes; he's caused people to view things in a different light What is your feeling about the level of civic and political involvement in the U.S. today? E = sad state of affairs when only 49% of eligible people vote; people can make a difference, if they get active V = "it's unfortunate" D = differences in political tolerance (what people wi ll tolerate) hav always been with us; some people won't ever get involved. no matter how bad things get �.. . -8Why do you think many citizens do not get involved? E = "it won't make a difference"; "my opinion doesn' t count" V = "people feel disenfranchised; they don't know what to do, or how to do it"; "people have jobs" [allusion to time?]; "you're up against powerful vested interests." D = now, there are more issues to deal with, and people have less time; some people make their contributions through work; we also need to be sure we include people's church involvement What civic / political behaviors are most needed in the United States today? E = no response V = campaign finance reform, especially at the national level D = people must force more accountability on politicians, & on the money that influences them To what extent does the culture of Cache Valley, Utah facilitate or inhibit political expression? E = too many people want George to do it; people are afraid of what others will think of them; " I'm real thick-skinned" V = feels no inhibitions; but, the vast majority of the people think alike D = "it's the provincial mentality that I love and hate" ; "I like the slower pace, and that you don't feel people are out to get you"; you're not a number, and can talk to your neighbors; but, "It's almost okay to be naive about the impacts of growth."; doesn't like being characterized as an outsider (Back East) because he has diff. views and ideas Have you experienced hostility, stress, or other negative consequences of your civic and political activities? E = yes; letters criticizing me (but never face to face); energized by criticism V = no D = yes; the car was egged a couple times; some work contacts call M the "eco-terrorist"; fee ls anxiety when he writes letters to the editor What do you feel have been the most rewarding aspects of your civic I political activities? E = personal sati sfaction; popular following ("when are you going to write another letter?"); letter in Herald 10urnal every 6th of the month V = "I learn new things, and meet interesting people." D = "getting people to look at something in a different light"; "putting a smile on someone's face" How would you like to be remembered by your great grandchildren? E = "as their real grandpa" V = "I'd like to see natural areas left [for them]"; I was part of a movement to save natural areas D = "A fighter for the future."; someone who looked at the future and asked "what's going to happen then? " rather than "what's it worth [today]?"; someone who set things aside fo~ the future to decide its status . � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Image Height 3323 Image Width Image Width in pixels 2619 Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/660">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/660</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 300 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale Checksum 2984228977 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Profiles in Activism: Three Citizens Involved in the Logan Canvon Controversy, student paper by Stanley Holmes Description An account of the resource Paper prepared for EDUC 677. This qualitative research project involved a multi-case study of adult citizens involved in a local political controversy. Following background research, structured interviews were conducted with three core subjects to identify shared character and bio-historical traits. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Holmes, Stanley Subject The topic of the resource Traffic engineering Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Design and construction United States Highway 89 Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Student projects Essays Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon/Logan Canyon Coalition Papers, 1963-1999, COLL MSS 314 Box 1 Folder 12 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv63458">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv63458</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS314Bx1Fd12 Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/43d4faa1e8252ce394f98f98ae21d873.jpg 5e5d65a639e1c7f72734da36244c545d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/224">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/224</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Children and adults swimming and boating at Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho Description An account of the resource Children and adults swimming and boating at Bear lake. Black and white nitrate negative (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hopkins, William H., 1873-1958 Subject The topic of the resource Swimming--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, William H. Hopkins addendum photograph collection, 1918-1939, P0360 716 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the William H. Hopkins addendum photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv21139">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv21139</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. William H. Hopkins addendum photograph collection, 1918-1939, P0360 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0360716 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/fe40f9168446c8d40313a03df21de24b.pdf 9aaca0cff5cf93cd5df13adfe8c971d3 PDF Text Text oR161ttAL 2 3 4 5 6 .. " o ... PUBLIC SCOPING MEETING LOGAN CANYON ENVIRONMENTAL STUDY 7 City Hall 145 West Center Garden City, Utah ~ I[ o IL 8 9 -000- 10 Presiding: Todd ~~eston state Highway Commissioner Utah Depar tm ent of ,.. TI'8.nsportation Conducting: stanton S. Nuffer 11 12 13 Project Manager 14 15 16 17 , 18 < U 19 o Z UI \oJ I[ IL 20 ~ UI \oJ ~ o « z " 21 22 \oJ D.. 23 24 25 CH2M Hill �I N D E X 2 3 Statement by Mr. Dee Johnson 6 5 Statement by Mr. Barry Negus 7 6 Statement by Mr. Val Peterson 8 7 Statement by Mr. Bryce Nielson 10 8 Statement by Mr. Ted Seeholtzer 13 9 Statement by Mr. Bryce Stringham 19 10 Statement by Mr. John Flannery 20 11 Statement by Mr. George Preston 23 12 Statement by Mr. Russ Currel 25 13 Statement by Mr. OWen Wahlstrom 26 14 Statement by Mr. Paul Webb 27 15 Statement by Mr. Bill Peterson 28 16 Statement by Ms. Cathy Webb 29 17 Statement by Mr. Ray Elliott 32 18 Statement by Mr. Lynn Hillsman 35 19 Statement by Mr. Don Huffner 36 20 Statement by Mr. Todd Weston of UDOT 38 21 Statement by Mr. Jess Anderson 42 22 Statement by Mr. Howard Richardson 43 23 'of Statement by Mr. Ken Brown 4 ell 0 3 3 .. Statement by Mr. Otto Mattson Statement by Mr. Dave Baumgartner 45 ~ II: 0 Ii. III ~ 1'1 C7I < u 0 z II) '" II: Ii. ~ II) '" ~ "0 0( z " III Q. 24 -000- 25 ) i. �GARDEN CITY, UTAH, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 1987, 7:00 P.M. 2 -000- MR. WESTON: 3 Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to w~'re 4 begin this meeting. 5 County, in Garden City. 6 for the use of this room, this facility. 1 here tonight on behalf of three agencies and a lot of other 8 interested people. 9 Commissioner of the Utah Department of Transportation, 10 happy to be over here in Rich We thank the Garden City officials We welcome you My name is Todd Weston. I'm the representing this part of the state. 11 We're here tonight to further our discussions 12 that we started with some information meetings some time 13 ago in this same room. 14 tonight. 15 had one in Logan last night and another one this morning 16 in Logan, and this will complete the scoping process of 11 the study that we're entering into on Logan Canyon. This is called a scoping meeting It's the third of three that we are holding. We The meeting will be conducted by the people from 18 19 CH2M Hill, who are the consultants employed by the Department 20 of Transportation to make the study in Logan Canyon. (Further comments by Mr. Weston. 21 Introductions 22 of officials present were made. Further comments by 23 Mr. Weston. 24 were projected upon the wall, and Mr. Barker gave a 25 narration. Comments by Mr. Sheldon Barker. Colored slides Mr. Nuffer continued the narration of the 2. �) slides. Further comments by Mr. Weston.) 2 MR. WESTON: 3 followed by Ken Brown. 4 We will first have MR. OTTO MATTSON: Ott~ Mattson, Gentlemen, after all these 5 6 route on a main artery, the highway system. 9 o Our economic growth is severely hampered by the fourth-class 8 III to be deprived of an adequate means of travel to and from? 7 ., studies, these surveys, the discussions, do we still have future is not to continue to be deprived because of a few N ~ a: ... o 10 We hope our we feel know nothing of our protective situation. We all love beauty, but we also love Twentieth 11 12 13 situations, transportation, livestock, construction, goods . 14 1-15 is an artery. 15 not least, recreation, the Wasatch Front's playground. 16 .J Century progress. economic growth now depends on the travel of these routes. < our future. o Last but Our Build, and remove the change for We hope you will consider that. MR. NUFFER: 19 U It's a Yellowstone route. Our views: 17 18 In our situation we have medical Thank you. Ken Brown. Then we'll Z til 101 20 a: t.. have Dee Johnson. ...: til 101 MR. KEN BROWN: 21 ~ Good evening, ladies and o « 22 gentlemen. 23 to see you, a good number of people here in attendance. 24 It shows good support, whether you're in favor or not in 25 z " I appreciate being here tonight, and it's good favor. 101 CL ) 3. �) The newsman from Channel 2 gave me a title of 2 being outspoken. 3 in there to indicate that. 4 But on the news, I didn't put- anything So I'm a little disappointed. As everyone knows, the Logan Canyon road 5 improvement issue has been one of a lot of controversy, 6 and I think that's probably unfortunate. 7 bit about the road. 8 been improved in Logan Canyon, as you know, is a very narrow 9 road, difficult to pass, problems for good flow of traffic. Just a little In my opinion, the area that hasn't 10 The bridges are a disaster, in my opinion, a real hazard 11 to traffic. 12 With respect to the study--and somebody correct 13 me if I'm wrong--I understand that this is the fourth study 14 --is that right, Todd? 15 ) MR. WESTON: 16 17 , 18 Well, I've been involved in three. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fourth. MR. BROWN: That's a real concern to me. going into the fourth study of this area. We're What are we going 19 to gain from the fourth study that we couldn't have gained 20 in the first, second, or third? 21 in my opinion. 22 The improvements. So I think that's a waste, I look for a design, improved 23 road, such as that in the lower portion of the canyon, or 24 that which has been improved. 25 essential for the flow of traffic. The passing lanes are New bridges need to ) 4. �) be built, in my opinion. 2 It's been my understanding that there has been 3 some proposal of a four lane system in Logan Canyon. 4 totally opposed to anything of that nature. 5 and it wouldn't be cost-effective. 6 Traveling in the canyon. I'm It isn't needed, I have spent most of II> 7 my life in Rich County. 8 of times, a lot of miles, a lot of different years, going 9 " o to college and Utah State University. N I've traveled the canyon a lot ~ II: o ... I think I have a 10 pretty good feel for how the road was prior to improvement 11 as now. Going through the canyon 12 now, and especially 13 the improved section, I can't see where you can tell there 14 was any disturbance carried out. 15 affect the beauty 16 there now, how can you tell, as I said, anything was ever 17 done? 418 <: u o I don't think it will once it's restored. As you drive through From a business standpoint or an economic 19 development, it's essential and critical. We know that 20 all businesses are struggling. 21 money, from the county standpoint, as well as from a grant 22 aspect, to the economic development in the Bear Lake region, 23 and we need to be able to get people to and 24 the Cache Valley area, as well. z UI LoI II: ... We are putting money, public ~ UI LoI ~ o « z " '" a.. 25 from~ I think As I said, I'm very much opposed to a fourth 5. �study coming forth of this issue, and I am very much in 2 favor of a road improvement in the portion of the highway 3 where the improved area ends in Garden City. 4 entire route needs improvement. MR. NUFFER: 5 6 I think the Thank you. Dee Johnson. Then we'll have Barry Negus. MR. DEE JOHNSON: 7 Good evening, ladies and 8 gentlemen. I appreciate the opportunity to comment. 9 I don't want to be repetitious of what's been said. I represent Rich County as a Commissioner and 10 11 12 ) as a citizen also. I sit in the middle. Mr. Francis was at the Logan meeting, and you've heard from Commissioner 13 Brown. 14 the other one is the other. 15 way to be would be to get in the middle of the road of those 16 two, and by so doing I sort of am an eternal optimist. And one of them is just as bullheaded one way as So I have decided the best I don't think there is anything that can't be 17 18 done if all people concerned try to make it happen. As 19 long as there's dialogue and study, then things like that 20 can happen. It's been mentioned that the entire economy, 21 22 of course, on this side of the hill depends on that road. 23 It is a major artery. 24 certainly fraternized by our people on this side of the 25 hill. I think Cache County's economy is You know, babies are born over there, and they will 6. �) always be born over there, and I'd like to see the road 2 improved and the environment withheld to a point that these 3 babies that's being born today and those that are going 4 to be born in 10, 15 years, can enjoy it. I see a situation where we have a present road 5 6 standard of approximately 25 feet. To get a standard or 7 a modified standard, we need to have about 8 I just can't help but think we can't add another 10 feet 9 in places where it's needed and still keep the environment io feet, and 10 so that it's protected, scenic. There has to be a way, 11 and there will be a way if we're all willing to work towards 12 it. If we go with Plan A, and we simply say no action 13 14 taken, then we haven't helped everyone concerned. We've 15 only helped one particular element, that being the element 16 who said, nBy doing anything, we disturb the environment." 17 If we go to the extreme and take alternatives 18 D or E, then we haven't maintained the environment as it 19 needs to be. 20 a road that can service the needs now and in the future. 21 We all have to work together. 22 the time. III N .... f ''"' " < u Somewhere we have to get in the middle, get o z I/) 101 a:: IL ...: I/) 101 ~ I think we can. I appreciate '0 « z " Thank you. 101 11. 23 MR. BARRY NEGUS: I agree well with everything 24 that's been said so far, and I think there is a definite 25 need for an improvement on the road. I think I can say ', ) 7. �most of the people travel on that road at least once a week, ~nd 2 3 to make it a little better and to help things out, not only 4 for us over here, - but for anybody else that wants to travel 5 the road. 6 think there are ways it can be done to keep the scenics 7 there and still make a good road and help everyone out. 8 12. · if not two or three times. Thank you. And with the scenic beauty and everything, I MR. NUFFER: 9 10 it does need to be improved Thank you, Barry. Next we'll have Val Peterson, followed by Bryce Nielson. MR. VAL .PETERSON: 11 ~ntothe I would like to have read 12 position that was taken by the Cache Chamber of Commerce 14 board of directors on the 15th of October in 1986 relative 15 to the Logan Canyon road study. such a study, which may eventually provide clearance to 17 much needed road improvements in the Logan Canyon. 18 our understanding that the study focuses primarily on the 19 stretch of canyon road between Right Fork and Garden City. 20 ~ 13 16 ) or recorded official record of this meeting a This is basically the unimproved section of the canyon road. We are pleased to support It is As a Chamber of Commerce we recognize that our 21 22 neighbors to the north in Idaho and Wyoming as well as Utah 23 depend on the canyon, Logan Canyon corridor, to provide 24 transportation access to services found in Logan and Cache 25 County. Their patronage to our businesses are encouraged, .) 8. �) welcomed, and appreciated. To these outlying communities, 2 this access is critical and fulfills a great need, a 3 lifeline, if you will, to much needed services and goods 4 not found in their areas. 5 Bear Lake is one of the largest bodies of clean 6 7 Salt Lake, and other Utah areas. 9 III facilities for not only local needs, but those of Ogden, 8 ., o ... fresh waters found in Utah. This area provides recreational area, as well as the canyon itself, attracts out of state ::E a: o IL 10 The beauty of the lake tourists, especially in the summer months. We think that the upper reaches of the Logan 11 12 Canyon Road should be made safer and more usable by upgrading 13 to an acceptable modern day standard as much as possible; 14 specificall~ 15 bridges widened, curves made less sharp, sight distance 16 lengthened, and areas widened. passing lanes installed, turning lanes built, It is recognized that environmental consideration 17 III ... N '" f 18 must be taken into account and in some cases allowed to 19 govern the situation. 20 attraction of the canyon is its uniqueness in its natural 21 setting. 22 uncontrolled road construction in Logan Canyon. III < u ci It is agreed that the charm and Z .., 1/1 a: IL ~ .., 1/1 ~ We do not want nor do we propose to support 0 <{ z " .., 0. 23 It is reassuring to know that an interdisciplinary 24 study team has been formed to guide the development of the 25 study currently underway. This team is made up not only 9. �of economists, biologists, engineers, UDOT, Federal Highway 2 Administration representatives, U. S. Forest Service 3 personnel, but the environmental community as well. 4 should provide a well balanced technical steering group 5 for recommended improvements. This Economical developments and the well being of 6 7 our existing businesses and those that may come into Cache 8 County is the basis of the Chamber of Commerce. 9 important for a Chamber of Commerce to help build a better It is also 10 11 the economic and social stability of our valley. 12 an opportunity for us to get behind this effort to do 13 something about the Logan Canyon Road and to work together 14 to improve our northern access from Logan to Garden City. 15 ) community by encouraging people to work together to improve Thank you. .. 16 17 18 MR. NUFFER: Thank you. Mr. Nielson. This is And after the Mayor, we will have Ted Seeholtzer. MR. BRYCE NIELSON: I appreciate the opportunity 19 to speak tonight. I look at the Logan Canyon Road from 20 various points of view. 21 up and live in Logan and to utilize the canyon from a 22 recreational point of view. 23 to live for a good number of years in Rich County and use 24 the canyon as a main artery towards the livelihood that 25 we require; doctors, stores, that type of stuff. I've had the opportunity to grow I've also had the opportunity ) 10. �! . I have also have had the opportunity to be a 2 fisheries biologist and a "environmentalist," you might 3 say. 4 the mayor of Garden City, and been able to see many of the 5 concerns that citizens of the area have about travel, 6 tourism, businesses, the life blood of communities. I have also been on the other side of the coin · as about I feel this gives me a good overview of the 7 8 problem on the Logan Canyon road. I feel that I can't really 9 state what alternatives I'm in favor of or opposed to. 10 11 13 appeal. is extremely important to me, since I transport my family, 15 my loved ones, through the canyon, and my friends travel 16 through the canyon. 17 to say which is more important that one or the other. 18 < throughout the canyon, its scenic values, its esthetic 14 u both the fishery environment and the other environments 12 ) Obviously, the environment is extremely important to me, think they're both extremely important. 19 o But on the same hand, the safety of the canyon So it's very difficult for me as one I I don't think speed is an issue in the canyon, Z III III 20 can you go around a corner? 22 many minutes can you save? 23 with most of the people in Rich County. 24 an issue with many people. 25 ... and I constantly hear this brought up as speed. 21 a:: very much in favor of improvement of bridges. How fast How many miles an hour, how I don't think that's an issue I don't think it's Safety is an issue, and I'm I'm very ) 11. �much in favor of improvement of passing lanes, so that 2 individuals who are impatient, want to get on down the road, 3 will not take hazardous actions that may affect the safety 4 of myself or people that I know and that I think a lot of. I think that it's important that the canyon is 5 6 improved for the tourist industry in Garden City and the 7 Bear Lake area. 8 about in many of these meetings is the fact that you talk 9 ' about loads through the canyon, people, numbers of cars; You know, one thing that's not been talked 10 but nobody has really talked about the amount of people 11 that go through Evanston, other routes to the area, primarily 12 to avoid the canyon. 13 utilize this exceptional resource . .J I'd like to see more of these people One other thing that I'm probably not--well, 14 15 I'm not in favor of--is any realignment of the Rich County 16 side. 17 and boats and semi's labor up and down the hill. 18 I also can see the scars of the old road that existed in 19 the thirties, and I don't want to see additional scars in 20 that beautiful area. 21 of the valley here and many of the tourists who come through 22 thoroughly enjoy seeing deer, moose, and associated wildlife 23 in that area. 24 25 I live on that alignment. I see the cars and trucks However, I know that many of the residents I think with some minor changes I can be very happy with the route as it exists at present. 12. �On the economic side, I don't want to see citizens 2 of Rich County be unduly taxed to maintain a road that they 3 would abandon if in fact they actually did abandon the road 4 or the alignment was changed so that it was our 5 responsibility as taxpayers to maintain the road that exists 6 right now. Above and beyond all, and in quick summary, I 7 8 would like to see more of us get together, both the 9 "environmentalists," "the users of the canyon," and the 10 politicians and look together to see the type of ending 11 that I think we can all be proud of. 12 ) MR. NUFFER: 13 MR. TED SEEHOLTZER: 14 15 Thank you. Ted. It's hell to get old,isn't it? My name is Ted Seeholtzer. I'm affiliated with 16 17 Travel Council for 11 years. 18 < u Beaver Mountain ski area. Bridgerland Tourist Council, which includes Rich County 19 and Cache County. 20 Some of them sit a little sideways from time to time, but 21 basically I'm straight down the middle type of a guy. a I'm a past member of the Utah I am now chairman of the So I can speak with two or three hats. z \II 101 a: ... ...: \II 101 ~ o '" " Z 22 I have been accused of being a special interest 101 IL 23 ·individual regarding the canyon. Perhaps I am to a point, 24 but I'm here to tell you one thing, whether or not I'm 25 associated with Beaver Mountain, if I thought for one minute 13. �that canyon was going to be uprooted, I would be completely 2 on the other side of the fence. So I do have some very, 3 very strong concerns about the canyon and what ought to 4 happen to it and the condition it ought to be in hopefully 5 when we get some work done on it. Just to throw a few insights to you regarding 6 7 the area and traffic patterns that we have there, on a day 8 that Beaver Mountain has 1,200 skiers, that develops into 9 roughly 440 cars at 2.7 persons per car, which is a good 10 average. It's pretty much a set number by all the resorts 11 in Utah-Colorado areas.· We have that happen any number of times during 12 ) 2.7 is a pretty good figure. 13 the winter. 14 Day and some of these type things that we get upwards of 15 1,300, 1,400, 1,500 people. 16 of 1,200 to 440 cars, if those people were to leave the 17 resort in an orderly fashion in a two-hour period, every 18 27 seconds an automobile would hit that road. 19 within an hour period, every 13.5 seconds an automobile 20 hits that highway. 21 Of course, we have some peak days. President's But as an average weekend crowd If they leave So we know that that road cannot be developed 22 to handle total peak traffic. The 24th of July, Labor Day, 23 Fourth of July type crowds. 24 considered when that road is designed that those types of 25 traffics are possible on it, and consideration should be But it certainly ought to be 14. �" given to that. We're noticing a great deal more traffic coming 2 3 4 We need those people in this area for their tax dollars, 6 the tourism industry, probably the easier industry to 7 attract. 8 water systems, and that for them. 9 (II resort. 5 " o '" from the Soda Springs, the Wyoming country in to use the your tax dollars. This side of the mountain needs some help also. We are not asked to build schools; cess pools, ~ II:: i 10 11 They don'tccme out of All they do is add to the coffers of the cities and counties where they visit. There are a few misconceptions that probably 12 have been handed out in the last 30 to 60 days concerning 13 the study that ought to be discussed just a little bit. 14 If you remember, the information was put up here on the 15 board regarding Logan Canyon as a designated scenic highway. 16 It · has been designated only in the Forest Land Use Plan. 17 It has not been registered in the Congressional Record at 18 this point in time. 19 that people think it is now in the record. 20 Forest Use Plan, not in the Congressional Record. III N ,.. 1'1 0> < U o I think that's a point of confusion Only in the Z VI III II:: '"- 21 It's been suggested that we use wider stripes, 22 · brighter paint, to mark the canyon with. 23 But, you know, it's rather difficult to see it in the winter 24 when it's covered with snow. 25 That's great. It doesn't show up too good. They talk about better .ighway atrol, law ) 15. �I. enforcement on speed down through the lower end, the lower 2 section of the project. I hope the heck they don't throw 3 the whistle at me when I'm on the way down, because there 4 is no place off of there. 5 for you and me to pull off if we're in trouble. 6 those things really need to be taken. care of. There are very, very few places Some of True, there could be some destruGtion to the 7 8 river. In places they have to build ret.a'ining walls. 9 question. It is a Class 2 fishery river. No But keep in mind 10 11 and it will always be a put and take river as long as the 12 ) it has been a put and take river for the last 10 to 12 years, fishing pressure is there. 13 it is possibly not a rating of a Class 2 river at this time. 14 So we have to consider .that We're been told that it will kill the algae in 15 the river if they work along the banks. 16 grow back next year. 17 have to be disturbed somewhat, providing we do not have 18 to maintain too many retaining walls. 19 So some of that stuff may have to be sacrificed for the 20 interim period, but it will return. 21 True. It will come back. But it will The bushes may Those will come back. Talk about campground destruction. Some of the 22 campgrounds will be eliminated. Two campgrounds are involved 23 in that lower section of the road. 24 other is the one at Cottonwood. 25 been blocked out for the last five or six · years by the One is China Row. The The one at Cottonwood has 16. �" Forest Service. It is no longer in use at this time. The 2 3 of the corridor of the trees. 6 granted. 7 GO have an extremely difficult time getting back on because 5 o You have . a difficult time getting off the road, and you 4 ., one at China Row shouldn't be, as it's far too dangerous. point . It is a beautiful place, But it is also a very dangerous place at that N ~ II: Logan Cave, a very definite problem area, probably 8 o ... 9 10 the most controversial area in Logan Canyon. question about it. Beautiful place. Agreed. No But it can be solved. The last four or five years, UDOT has had to 11 12 more fill in later on, nor push it into the river, which has been done the last two or three years . . I think that 17 problem could be handled very easily without a lot of 18 U it, and it's set. 16 o road. 15 < 13 14 ) haul fill in there to keep the river from coming over the destruction to it. 19 portion of the canyon--probably the one phenomenon in all 20 of Logan Canyon. Why don't we elevate the road? No problem. Cantilever out over We don't have to haul any And heaven's knows, I don't want that Z 1/1 W II: ... One thing that hasn't been discussed here a great 21 22 deal is the amount of snow that falls in Logan Canyon from 23 the Forks to, say, Sunrise Campground on this side of the 24 canyon. 25 there's somewhere between 300 and 500 inches of snowfall The records we've kept over the last years shows 17. �1/ within that area. , The 500 inches would fall from Tony Grove 2 over the top into Sunrise. Have you ever considered the 3 size of bar pit that you need to put that much snow in? 4 Sure, some of it can be blown away, but a 5 lot of it also blows back on. 6 ask the gentlemen who drive the plow trucks through there, 7 they will tell you -that 100 inches could blow in one night 8 that they have to push off, not only that that falls. I'm sure if you were to So we do need some bar pit room. 9 We do need 10 some shoulders for those in trouble to get off and to make 11 the road safer and less narrow in the winter time when there 12 is an awful .lot of snow falling. My recommendation would be on the improvement 13 14 15 estimation an excellent job on the bottom end of the road, 16 they have used awfully good judgment to improve that road. 17 f of the road to let the UDOT people, who have done in my It is not unsightly. 18 place, but that was necessary for a passing lane. 19 you did not have the one passing lane along by Brown's 20 Rolloff, you would only have the passing lane from Malibu 21 area until you hit the dugway, and that is too far for people 22 who need to get through the canyon. True, they got into the river in one And if I thank you very much for your time, and I 23 24 appreciate the privilege of speaking to you tonight. 25 Thank you. 18. �.. MR. NUFFER: 2 Bryce Stringham. Then we'll have John Flannery. 3 MR. BRYCE STRINGHAM: I'm Bryce Stringham. I've 4 5 It was about eight years before that that I was a part-time 6 resident. 7 that canyon any more than I have in the last '28 years, and 8 I put in quite a lot of input in the last meeting we had 9 ~ III o been a resident here for all the time for about 20 years. here, and I kind of protested about that road, and I'm sure I don't think there is anybody that has traveled Of I II: o ... 10 11 that's been covered many times. The concern I have on this is changing the route 12 13 'he's for keeping it on the route it's going. 14 go along with that to a point, that if we've got to change 15 that route, that we change it on the face here because of 16 the scenic values, because of the people who are already 17 ) on this side of the hill. I think, as Bryce has said, that there who need to serve in part. 18 need to change the road, let's keep it near where it is, 19 and let's come out where we're at. I essentially ,~ In other words, if we ill N ,... t'I 01 <: u o We have to look at the Z til W II: ... W economic part of it, too. 21 Now, if they're going to change the route down 22 Hodges Canyon, they've got to buy more property, they've 23 got to ·change the route. 24 maybe using some of the old route they had, or whatever. 25 I don't know what . the study is. That costs a lot more money than But I'd be violently against 19. �II changing any other route but essentially the route we've 2 got. Now, with some variations and like that would 3 4 be fine, but to change a whole new route that's the thing 5 that I'm opposed to. Thank you. 6 MR. NUFFER: John Flannery. 7 MR. JOHN FLANNERY: Thank you for the opportunity. 8 Can you hear me in back? I'm a writer, not a speaker. 9 So I'm going to read what I have for all here. First of all, I have no financial interests in 10 11 any way in Logan Canyon or Logan or Rich .county. This is 12 not in opposition to what has been said or to the idea of 13 improving the road we have. 14 it as a note of caution. I would prefer to think of When I came to Utah to work for the State 32 15 16 years ago, it was Parley's Canyon that said: 11 good place. 18 two-lane road going into Salt Lake City is marvelous. 19 gone. This is beauty." "This is a That small stream by the It's Provo Canyon was a quiet meander from Provo to 20 21 Heber Valley, with a few scattered mostly summer homes. 22 Excellent brown trout fishing and shade. 23 and winding. 24 gone. 25 The road was slow It was a place of tranquility. And it is The road from Ogden to Huntsville is less exciting ) 20. �perhaps. 2 homes. 3 13. k~ Steeper, a little bit. Narrower. Not too many That, too, is gone. One canyon remains, admittedly butchered in part, 4 riprapped in part, but maintaining its uniqueness. 5 Logan Canyon, as you all know. As a sometimes travel writer and photographer, 6 ., That's 7 I find that will attract and appeal to both the veteran 9 o my concerns are the esthetics of an area. 8 III What is it that traveler and the first-time or once in a lifetime voyager? N 10 11 I have visited and worked in a lot of states and a lot of 12 countries, flown over quite a few of them too. 13 ..J Without going into a travel log, I would like to say that of these have been visually diminished by the straight 14 ribbons of cement and blacktop we equate with progress and 15 call development. Too many Less than a month ago in Hawaii, I had the 16 17 privilege of driving a road called the Road of a Hundred 18 Bridges, and it runs down across the back of Maui to the 19 tiny town of Hana. 20 is 20 miles an hour. 21 And at many, many bridges you have to stop, yield to oncoming 22 traffic. · 23 There are 23 miles. The top speed limit You often have to go 10 miles an hour. These are one-way bridges. And you'd be glad that you're in a Japanese car and not an American car when 24 you do try to cross those. Still, it's an unforgettable 25 drive of leisure and beauty, with enough ·pullouts to 21. �) encourage dawdling and savoring a unique place on earth. 2 The Hawaiians don't lament those 23 miles of beauty, and 3 that leisurely drive makes people come allover the world 4 who care about scenic beauty. 5 of the tourist industry. 6 It's the backbone of some I submit that Logan Canyon and its river are 7 similarly unique. Certainly there is nothing like this 8 canyon and the Logan River left in . Utah. It's butchery, and it could happen. 9 It will 10 diminish its ability to draw the many people who come to 11 savor what we have. Injuring this canyon will diminish Utah's full 12 13 house of attractions. Its damage could and will reduce 14 the value of what is a gateway to your beautiful valley 15 and perhaps wipe out travelers' enthusiasm for the total 16 experience of the drive from the Wasatch Front communities 17 to Bear Lake. Minutes saved will never repay posterity for 18 19 the measured damage that may be done to the unique canyon 20 we have. Thank you for listening. 21 I know you're not 22 sympathetic to some of the things I've said. 23 this is not opposition. 24 you. 25 MR. NUFFER: As I said, It's a word of caution. Thank you. Thank Well, those are ~ll ) 22. _. ____ .. _ .. _.... ..... .. _. . .... . _.................. . . . . . _ . . . . ....... ....... _... ...... .... , ... ... ....... .\.\.. _,"\ H'" ... . . .? . • • _ .' .. r .. r .... ' ..... ·. _-•• , • • -·.""\ ' ..... ·--; .... _l �II the ones that signed the list that indicated they would 2 wish to speak. 3 home at 10 after 8:00, now, do we? 4 Some said maybe. We don't all want to go I hope the setup here hasn't intimidated anyone. 5 This looks kind of official, but we would certainly invite 6 you to come up. 7 if there is anybody that's changed their mind about talking 8 --if you said no here, I don't care. We sincerely want to have your input. MR. GEORGE PRESTON: 9 So Come on up. My name is George Preston. 10 11 of residency, but not newcomer in the sense of being over 12 here and enjoying the place, and I have a very deep sense 13 of feeling towards the responsibility that we each have 14 ) I guess I'm a newcomer to this county, newcomer in the sense towards this community. 15 16 Club and have thought as Mr. Flannery thinks, we would still 17 have a double width wagon track through the canyon. 18 < u If our forefathers had been members of the Sierra would be totally cut off from any sort of civilization; 19 and as far as any economy, there would be none. 20 there is now. o We Less than z I/) LoI a: IL ~ I/) LoI ~ I have listened to five hours of meetings. 21 I o « z " 22 have listened to both sides, pro, con, all the way from 23 Alternative A to Alternative D. LoI IL With that in mind, I drove through the canyon 24 25 today. As I drove through, I convinced one person, and 23. �that was myself, that this road can be improved, it can 2 be widened, passing lanes can be made. All of this can 3 be done with the gentlemen that are here and available as 4 experts, without compromising the esthetic beauty of the 5 canyon, without compromising fish, wildlife, with hardly 6 any· compromise to the ecology, because we can do it. 7 looking at the alternatives, and driving through the canyon, 8 Alternative C category, improvements can be made in the 9 first lower portion. In The C category can be made in the 10 upper portion. 11 down into Garden City, significant improvements can be made. Two of the worst corners in the entire canyon .12 ) · 13 And, of course, from the top of the canyon can be eliminated. We all know what's happened on those 14 corners. We all know of the accidents. There is no reason 15 to maintain a ·hazard like that in which it affects me and 16 potentially you, because those that have gone before us 17 . on those corners, they're gone. Who is next in the future? 18 When the economy of Cache County was sorely in 19 need of a highway leading into Logan, so that Logan could 20 say, "We need that highway to boost the economy," it was 21 given to Logan. 22 road and those modifications, compatible with the ecology, 23 to boost this economy." Rich County is now saying: 24 Please give it to us. 25 MR. NUFFER: "We need that Is there anyone else here? Yes, sir. ) 24. �II MR. RUSS CURREL: My name is Russ Currel. As 2 3 I came together. 5 ... I do speak for myself today. 4 n -- I look over this group, I recognize nearly everyone here. in Logan, Cache County, when that statement was made. 6 do support the statement of the Chamber of Commerce. I did come over. Val and I was president of the Chamber of Commerce I I would like to make some comments of my own. 7 8 I do own property in Bear Lake and property in Cache Valley . 9 I was born in Bear Lake county, and I don't think there 10 11 My family, as we were talking about taking a posi t ·ion here-- 12 ) is anyone here that enjoys Logan Canyon anymore than I do. I have five children, and without exception, all five said, 13 "Dad, please don't take a position to destroy the canyon." And I said, "I think you know me better than 14 15 that." But one thing I do take a position on, and that 16 17 is the safety of the canyon. I don't know what you would 18 do to the canyon. 19 getting from here to Logan very much. 20 are a lot of things there that need to be done for the safety 21 of the canyon. II) N " en 1'1 <: u o I don't think you'd speed up the time But I do know there Z III 101 a: ... I think I would be about B plus position on the 22 23 map, where I think there are a lot of those things, B, that 24 need to be done. 25 C. Most of those things, and even some in And I really feel they can be done without really being 25. �a hazard to the ecology or to the wildlife. 2 I don't fish. Never fished in my life. But 3 I think there are ways that we can handle the river where 4 we're not going to be a detriment to that. I would hope that we all get together, and I 5 6 think the mayor over here stated it best. 7 together and work hard on this, I think we can overcome 8 the problems that are here and really accomplish what we 9 want to accomplish. Thank you. MR. OWEN WAHLSTROM: 10 If we all get My name is OWen Wahlstrom. 11 12 know how to express my feelings to you; but this winter 13 in the canyon, we were going through the canyon to Logan. 14 It was snowing so hard I had to stop and get the ice off 15 my windshield at Twin Bridges. 16 I watched three snow plows go across that bridge with their 17 blade jammed into the guardrail to miss a car coming the 18 other way. They were all three sliding. 19 ) I'm a resident here. feet between them. My family is from this area. I don't While we were stopped there, There wasn't six I definitely agree that the bridges have got 20 21 to be widened. 22 you'd call a modern day miracle. 23 wide body cars. 24 make it. 25 Somehow they missed the car. It was what One of those big full, And we didn't think they were going to If we don't do something, and if we go completely ) 26. �with the esthetics, are we going to make up a road like 2 is going through Glacier National Park, where all trucks 3 are prohibited and large motorhomes are prohibited? 4 It will eventually come to that if the traffic keeps up. I, too, enjoy the canyon; but I do think some 5 6 7 there are probably lawsuits against the State in that canyon . 8 We're going to pay one way or the other. 9 .., CII o .,. improvements have to be made. happening in there. I don't know. I imagine ~ a: o ... Accidents keep It's been stated here, it's a 10 11 - substandard road. are many areas in there where if somebody wants to raise . 12 problems for I'm not an attorney, but I'm sure there it can easily be done . anybody, I also rely on the economy over here very much. 13 14 I don't want this to be a two-bit tourist trap, but I think 15 we can accommodate more people than we're getting. 16 you. 17 18 < u MR. NUFFER: MR. PAUL WEBB: 19 o Thank Yes, sir. Can I just stand here? is like driving through Logan Canyon. The trip (Laughter.) Z \II 20 W a: I/.. ..: \II 21 w ~ o « I just had a few thoughts I want to say. taking any alternative-- 22 MR. NUFFER: 23 z " MR. WEBB: III IL By Could you give your name? Paul Webb. I am a resident here in 24 Garden City. By taking any alternative less than a major 25 resurfacing modification, we're only going to reduce the ) 27. �Il time between conflicts between people and also reduce the 2 time between disturbances of the environment. We must 3 remember at this point in time we consider the canyon a 4 beautiful place, where wildlife thrives and brightens our 5 lives. 6 was butchered, and it has recovered. 7 the butchery. 8 can be improved and provide transportation to people. 9 we're doing the job, let's do it right. But remember, at some time in the past the canyon And it's beautiful. 10 MR. NUFFER: 11 MR. BILL PETERSON: We are looking at With caution, the canyon While Yes, sir. Bill Peterson, Garden City. 12 13 20 years. 14 surveys and signs and studies go on in the canyon. 15 think it's time we get past the looking and the studying 16 ) I've been a resident of Garden City and the area for about and do something to improve the canyon. 17 For 15 of those 20 years I think there have been I'm in the real estate business. .1 really I have numerous 18 people coming through the canyon stopping in the office, 19 many of them upset. 20 21 22 23 24 25 "That's a beautiful canyon, but I would never drive over it again." I mean, I'm not kidding you. That's what a number of people say. It's dangerous. want to go over it. It's beautiful. But they don't I really think even the first section ) 28. �down towards Logan is out of date. i We've got you gentlemen 2 3 than your 1 to 2 percent you've predicted. 4 of major developments, at least 5 are major. 6 • o coming up here. Our growth rate is going to be much more every year. tw~ We have a number that will be here that And we have building permits. We're growing 7 I think if you go and improve to meet what you 8 had in the lower part of the canyon, as Paul said, you're 9 III wasting your time. III ~ a: o ... We should plan · now to have the facilities 10 for the future. 11 Canyon is not going to do us in 10 years from now. MR. NUFFER: 12 ) 13 That section in the first part of Logan Thank .you. Is there anyone else? Ye s, rna' am. MS. CATHY WEBB: 14 My name is Cathy Webb. I'd 15 16 view. 17 to and from Logan probably at least once a week. 18 < u like to make .some comments from a woman's standpoint of even more than that. 19 o z VI .... a: Everyone of us ladies - here in this community travels Maybe I'd like all of you executives and officials 20 that are in this room tonight to know that I have spoken 21 to each and everyone of you several times. 22 didn't get past Paul's ears. 23 And I've gone through that canyon a million times, and I've 24 remodeled it a dozen times. 25 ... to see what . would happen if somebody dug away some dirt However, it It didn't get past the car. I've checked out the mountains ) 29. �and some shrubs. I've put up fence along the dugway for 2 years, so that the rocks wouldn't bounce down on the road. 3 I just know I'm going to get hit by a boulder on the dugway 4 one of these years. I just know it. On top of the car. I've taken four little children, tiny little 5 6 babies to the doctors, the hospitals, the groceries. I 7 have spent probably a minimum of $500 a month, ·and that 8 probably is a minimum, over in Cache Valley. I appreciate the comments of the Chamber of 9 10 Commerce. We like to feel appreciated over here and the 11 fact that we do put a lot of money into Cache . Valley . . I would also like to make a comment that last 12 13 year in August I packed up my car, took my 15-year-old 14 daughter at 10 o'clock at night. 15 My husband had already left. 16 with just my daughter and me, 10 o'clock at night. .> We were moving to Logan. And I started out the journey I climbed up the summit. 17 I had a car behind 18 me. 19 to get in front of me. 20 to the point that I had to pass him again. 21 him. 22 tell, I had a carload of screwballs following me. 23 I let him pass through Tony Grove, or through Beaver, He slowed down. And then he continued to tail me. He slowed down So I passed As near as I could Needless to say I was scared to death by the 24 time I got to Logan, because, you see, we passed no other 25 cars on the way. There was no moon. It wasn't bright. ) 30. �') There were no reflectors. I couldn't tell if there was 2 a place for me to pullout on the road. 3 my tail. 4 on going. 5 But I couldn't tell. I wanted him off I had no choice but to keep At that point, I told my daughter, "Hand me a 6 7 GI o traveling through the canyon, put a man's hat on, it will 8 • .. baseball cap," because I had always read if you're a woman protect you. ~ I[ o a.. 9 We're driving down the road, and I am scared 10 11 this hat on, and we went that way through the rest of the 12 canyon with these guys tailing me, turning their lights 13 off, harassing me through the canyon, and I not being able 14 to get off the road to make them pass me, until we got onto 15 the new part of the road again. 16 bugger, you go ahead, and I'll find somebody, and I ' l l get 17 ) to death. "Hand me a hat." I tucked my hair up and put your number." And then I thought: "You 18 19 to the point, once we got to the turnoff, that he had to 20 pass. 21 < u And he had to pass me, because I slowed' down ' was my greeting into Cache Valley to be a resident there. o z \I) LII I[ IL. And that's the way we went on into Logan, and that ..: \I) LII ~ o « z " 22 LII Well, we lived there for nine months and then CL 23 24 25 we ended up moving back to Garden City. May I say to those of you that are here and representing the environment, you'll find no one that ) 31. �\ appreciat.e s the esthetic beauty of Cache Valley and of the 2 mountains more than those of us who choose .to live in them. 3 We talk about the drives. 4 single time we go through Logan, because every time you 5 go through Logan Canyon you see something different. 6 We talk about the beauty every Improving that road is not going to change what 7 we see when we go through that canyon. 8 to say. That's all I have 9 Oh, I do have one other comment. 10 who is in Logan, calls Logan Canyon a paved cow trail. 11 MR. NUFFER: Thank you. 12 MR. RAY ELLIOTT: My dentist, Anyone else? Yes. My name is Ray Elliott. I 13 know most of you here. Some of you may know us from being 14 here in the summer. 15 So I wanted to speak just a little bit concerning all of 16 the interests involved. I have interests here in Bear Lake. This seems to be quite a polarizing issue. 17 I '18 went to the meeting last night in Logan. The meeting was 19 heavily represented there last night by environmental 20 interes~s, 21 towards development of the road. 22 different motives, different personal interests, some of 23 them personal, some of them environmental, some of them 24 concerned with safety. 25 from people who have specific monetary concerns in the canyon and the interests seemed to be more slanted Everyone seems to have Some interests are monetary, either ) 32. �I, or on either side of the canyon, to see improvement made. 2 I feel that we really need to be responsible to 3 4 we need to be careful to protect the things that we all 7 ., to be made in the canyon. 6 flII improvement. 5 o the future, both for the environment and safety and feel are important. .... But in making those improvements, There is going to be increased traffic. 8 9 Improvements that are going to be made need If we want to see increased use here in Bear Lake, we need to 10 decide who we're trying to attract. 11 Lake is attracting tourists, we need to be careful. 12 we want the tourists to get through on a faster highway, 13 or do we want to attract people who are there to enjoy the 14 scenery? 15 If the economy of Bear There are gives and takes there. Do In trying to 16 attract more people, if they declare 17 route and list it in the Federal Registry, you may attract 18 more tourists; but in doing so, you're going to have to 19 accommodate more people in that canyon, and the roads are 20 going to have to be improved. 21 both ways. 22 th~ highway a scenic There are going to be trades If we decide over here--and I have interests 23 here that I need--I would like to see tourist trade increase, 24 but I'm not sure that faster roads or scenic highway, either 25 one, there's a question that exists there. Which is going . ) 33. �to be in the best interests of Rich County in attracting 2 3 tourists? We need to be careful that this type of forum 4 that we have in getting public opinion does not leave the 5 engineering firm, CH2M Hill, UDOT, with the impression that 6 what they have seen either in support of widening the road 7 or in support of saving the environment and doing nothing-- 8 they're going to be left with an impression there, and then 9 they're going to take that 10 info~mation home and decide what they will do with it and do what they will. 11 the two groups is because each group feels that one group 13 is trying to take advantage of the other group or that the 14 concerns of the environmentalists will be totally served by 15 whomever is going to make the decision, or the concerns 16 of improvements in the road are going to be served over 17 ) Now, some of the polarities that exist between 12 14. the environment. 18 I have a suggestion that I'm not sure what could 19 be done there to insure that both sides are served; and 20 I feel that there is a middle ground that could be achieved 21 without destroying the environment and without changing 22 the canyon, and still improving the road. 23 responsible to the improvements that need to be made. 24 25 . We have to be I mean, I've driven a pregnant wife at 2 o'clock in the morning over that highway from Bear Lake to Logan, ) 34. �with labor pains and two minutes apart, and I know the 2 anxiety that accompanies that. 3 So there are safety concerns that we need to 4 5 forum like this leaves people with a few notions that they 7 will go ba.ck and, . again, as I said, do what they will. 8 there could be a committee put together of interest groups 9 ., o ... same time, I really love and appreciate that canyon. 6 III be .concerned with, that we really need to address. that each have their own interests that could be used as At the A If ~ I[ o "- . 10 11 environmentalists, the Sierra Club may have a representative 12 at that meeting, the Rich Tourist Council should have a 13 representative on that advisory committee. 14 perhaps there should be a way to insure that everyone's 15 ) checks and balances for whatever is going to be done, the interest there is served, and I feel that they can be. 16 17 MR. NUFFER: 18 < u That's all I had to say. MR. LYNN HILLSMAN: I think that Thank you. Yes, sir. My name is Lynn Hillsman, 19 and I have one thing that's just a little bit different 20 than most people. 21 of others. 22 the middle of the road, and there are major problems with 23 the subgrade. 24 up the road just to even maintain it. 25 improvement and still try to maintain it? o Z \/I 101 I[ "- I drove that canyon today, like a bunch ...: \/I 101 ~ (; « z " a. 101 To my idea, there is water coming up through To redo this, you're going to have to tear So why not do some \ ) 35. �But with the subgrade and the drainage the way 2 it is, there's something drastic has to be done with that 3 road to keep it to where you can drive on it. 4 you're doing it, do it right. 5 That's all I have to say. 6 MR. NUFFER: 7 MR. DON HUFFNER: So while Yes, sir. I'm Don Huffner. I wasn't 8 going to say anything tonight, but Ray reminded me of 9 something that happened to me. I used to be on the Highway 10 Patrol. 11 in Logan Canyon, it was probably me that gave them to you. 12 In fact, 20 years ago if any of you got tickets Ray said that he has driven Logan Canyon with an expectant wife. 14 somebody else's expectant wife, and it's no easier when 15 it's somebody else's wife. 16 ) 13 trying to tell the father how to deliver that baby. 17 Well, I've driven Logan Canyon with It's hard to drive that canyon I've got some recommendations here, or at least 18 things, as I look at the presentation and look 19 a little more specific 20 maybe Alternative C was all right. 21 looked at it, and Alternative D, they have changed the road 22 just below Ricks Spring and cut out an area there that in 23 my opinion, my experience, it is quite a bad area. 24 made a lot of other improvements here, too. 25 like the difference between C and D is this cut just below On at the maps the first section I thought that But then the more I They But this looked ) 36. �1 , ) 1 Ricks Spring that eliminates an area where the banks are 2 very steep and in the winter time the sun never gets down 3 to the road--well, seldom gets down to the road--not because 4 of clouds, but because of the mountains shading it. 5 quite a dangerous area in my opinion. Now, Alternative C I believe would be fine other 6 7 That's than that. On the next section, on Section 2, I thought 8 ' 9 10 they would like to see the road brought right up to snuff, 11 put a brand new road in there, because in 15 or 20 years 12 ) Alternative B was satisfactory. NOW, some have said that we're going to need it, or maybe even sooner. 13 possible. That's But ' economically speaking, I don't know that-- 14 15 I'm afraid we're going to choke the horse if we try to feed 16 it that much and that we need to be realistic on our needs 17 now. 18 <: u We've got other areas, other routes of getting 19 in and out of the valley. 20 too, to develop those along with this. 21 summer people that have cabins here on the lake that come 22 from Salt Lake, well over half of them--well over half of 23 o I think we need to work on those, them--from the Salt Lake area come through Evanston already. Z III III It: IL 24 25 Already of the Now, as more people learn of the Evanston route, there will probably be more and more people come that way. ,. ) 37. �') And that's not all bad to have several accesses into our 2 area. The last section, again, there are some very 3 4 bad curves there, and I think that they need to be looked at. I think Alternative D would be the one that I 5 6 would recommend. It eliminates the bad curves without 7 realigning the road drastically, and I think we could get 8 along with that. Thank you. MR. NUFFER: 9 Is there anyone else here that would 10 care to testify? 11 want to that changed their mind? Now is your chance. Well, with that, do any of the UDOT people want 12 13 Anyone that came thinking they didn't to say anything in closing? MR. 'WESTON: 14 I was ready to go at 10 after 8: 00, 15 but since we've talked some more, let me make one thought 16 or two in conclusion. 17 through our previous meetings that Logan Canyon itself means 18 different things to different people. 19 all going to agree upon what Logan Canyon means to us. 20 think we've found out that it's a very sensitive area. I think 'we've found out tonight and I don't think we're I I think we already know that the Forest Service 21 22 desires to keep it a scenic highway, and I think that's 23 fine. 24 25 I think that can be done. I think we need to remember a few things, and I think I need to answer a question of Commissioner Brown's. ) 38. �I think it deserves an answer. That is, what's to be gained 2 3 study. I don't think we've lost anything by three times. 6 that this better be the last study before we do something 7 CIO And I've told you previously that this is my third 5 . asked. 4 o ... by an additional study? I think that's the question he in Logan Canyon . study~ng it But I do think that the time has come now l: II: I say that from the standpoint that we now have 8 o "- 9 -got some structures up there in the canyon that have got 10 to be repaired or replaced quite drastically. I can see 11 some problems if we don't repair those bridges; and if we 12 try to do it on the existing alignment, on the existing 13 bridge, we're going to have to build a route around those 14 bridges for the traffic to go through that may be more 15 detrimental to - the highway than some of the things we're 16 talking about. I just want to say this much, that we have got 17 18 19 do something on the bridges is quite obvious to most of 20 you here. 21 of our study. 22 Transportation is not flush 23 the Legislature recently passed a 5 cent gas tax increase, 24 the needs that we have, I've got to say in all honesty that 25 <: u to do something on the bridges. - The reason we've got to 5 cents more gas tax is a drop in the bucket to our needs. o z II) 101 II: ... What we do over and beyond that is the purpose But I do know this. The Department of with dollars. Even though ) 39. �We have to rely on the federal highway people 2 to help us fund primary road systems. Logan Canyon Highway, 3 Highway 89, is more than just a road for Cache County. 4 more than just a road for Rich County. 5 federal highway; and as long as we're going to have a primary 6 federal highway going through that canyon, we've got to 7 keep it up to certain standards. It's It's a primary 8 Now, if the time comes that there are enough 9 feelings that that shouldn't be a primary highway, then 10 I guess we'll address that at that time; but it presently 11 is, and we're required and obligated in our responsibility 12 to the highway system of the State of Utah' to do certain 13 things on that highway to make it reasonably safe and usable 14 for the traveling public. 15 to do it. 16 it's our judgment as a Department of Transportation, that 17 there will be no money spent up there, even on bridges, 18 until we complete an environmental impact study in depth, 19 like we're doing now, and there will be a chance to have 20 you come to a hearing on our draft environmental impact 21 study, which will be ready sometime this fall, hopefully; 22 and at that time you can make the decision, help us make 23 the decision, on what we're going to do with Logan Canyon. 24 But I do know that the study has got to be done. 25 We need federal highway dollars The federal highways, I can tell you now, and When I first came on the Commission, ·1 was the ) 40. �\ i first one to go to the rest of the Commissioners and say, 2 "Why are we spending half a million dollars up there to 3 study something we already know?" 4 statement as Commissioner Brown made. You know, the same 5 6 ., I since have become a little older and a little wiser, and I know that we've got to complete this document . 7 and consider every option and consider everybody's feelings 8 and examine every portion of it and now do anything in that 9 ell o canyon until we're satisfied that we're doing the right III ~ II: o ... 10 thing. 11 to release any money and Dave Baumgartner and the Forest 12 Service are not going to support us if we don't do the job 13 And I know the federal highway people are not going -and do it right. 14 Now, that's the reason for the study. You have an opportunity to give us input. You 15 16 consulting team up until April 6. 17 has the address you can mail those to, if you have things 18 < u will have written comments that can be written to our to say that you didn't say tonight. 19 if you want to get your name on the record, you send that 20 in to the people and express yourself. o You have - a handout that Even if it's repetitive, Z III W II: ... I don't think numbers are going to be things 21 22 that make the determination. I don't think numbers ever 23 was the determining decision-making process in any valid 24 decision. 25 good solid concrete suggestions on what you think we ought But we do want your input, and we want to have 41. �to do. Thank you. MR. NUFFER: 2 3 Jess, did you have a follow-up on that? MR. JESS ANDERSON: 4 I just have a question. Can 5 you do anything with the area around Logan Cave? 6 make that parking or something? 7 in a snowstorm in the middle of the night, and there's not 8 much room on that corner. That's what these experts are going MR. NUFFER: That's one of the areas we're going to tell us. 11 12 You come through there MR. WESTON: 9 10 Can you to take a good close look at. A VOICE: 13 Just on the time frame fot the 14 environmental impact study, how long does that need to 15 proceed? MR. NUFFER: 16 Well, if all things go reasonably 17 well, we hope to complete the draft environmental impact 18 statement this summer, which will give you the environmental 19 datq to accompany these alternatives that we have identified where. 21 One more question. 22 A VOICE: I'm a little uncomfortable with the 23 monologue type input. I feel a little better with the more 24 dialogue type input. 25 says something, another person says something, and it's What's been happening is one person ) 42. �tough for both parties to get together. What my question 2 is, ultimately who makes the decision, and how is that 3 decision going to be made on what is actually done in the 4 canyon? 5 6 '" III o 7 MR. NUFFER: Does Howard or Todd care to answer that question? MR. HOWARD RICHARDSON: This draft environmental N ~ II: 8 impact statement will contain an inventory of all of the 9 o "- resources and the values that all parties have identified 10 in the canyon; and a recommended design will be recommended 11 or proposed, considering all of those things; and where 12 impacts or problems are perceived to take place, mitigations 13 and recommendations will be supplied in the environmental 14 impact statement containing what will happen. 15 There will be a public hearing that will be held 16 17 < o on that proposal and on those recommendations and on the 18 U that will contain the comments of people who wish to comment proposed mitigation. 19 U. S. Forest Service and the Federal Highway Administration 20 will make a determination of whether the environmental issues 21 and safety issues have been properly addressed and whether 22 that represents a reasonable and proper and prudent solution 23 to the problem at hand. After that has been heard, then the Z VI 101 II: "- ..: VI 101 ~ o 0{ I!) Z 101 II. 24 25 So the agencies, the sponsoring agencies are the ones who will make the final decision. It will be made 43. �only after a tremendous amount of input, of which these 2 meetings last night and tonight are only a part of. MR. ELLIOTT: 3 Another question. Is there a 4 possibLlity of having a citizens' advisory to that decision? 5 Has that been done? MR. RICHARDSON: 6 Well, I don't think that's--it's 7 possible to have that done on an informal basis. 8 would be simply a measure to help structure and make sure 9 that the problems are identified and the concerns were 10 properly put into the environmental document. MR. ELLIOTT: 11 12 But that Could you take that into consideration? MR. RICHARDSON: 13 Yes, I'm sure that will be taken 14 into consideration. 15 that. 16 meeting for several months, there has been 12 to 15 meetings 17 by the interdisciplinary team. 18 of varied interests of the resources and the values in the 19 canyon. 20 place. 21 22 23 On the The team and I were thinking about interd~sciplinary , team that has now been That represents a composite So there already is a type of that thing taking Yes, there is. MR. ELLIOTT: Is there any way of getting a record of what transpires next? MR. RICHARDSON: Well, those minutes are public 24 information, and minutes have been kept of all of those 25 meetings, and CH2M Hill are the guardians of those things. ,) 44. �~) They manufacture them and make them and circulate them for 2 each of the meetings, so that everybody knows what was done 3 last time, and they are reviewed and approved and discussed. 4 And, yes, those things are not secret. 5 for everybody who wants to look at them. 6 III o 7 MR. NUFFER: 8 ., . MR. ELLIOTT: MR. DAVE BAUMGARTNER: 9 They are available Thank you. Dave Baumgartner. As a suggestion to us all--and I haven't talked to Howard nor to Stan nor the 10 CM2H folks about this, the original design of that 11 environmental study is unique, and it really didn't operate 12 like we had thought it was going to at . the beginning. 13 had invited some members of the environmental community 14 to sit on that, because they had the major concerns with 15 the program. We 16 17 o needs that legitimately ought to be done on the highway. 18 < u I think most people recognize that there were 'And our thought in the beginning was to bring in those people 19 who had adverse views to that and help us work through the 20 process, so that that would go a little bit smoother. Z 'II W II: ... ~ 'II W ~ 21 But it's changed a little bit in its organization. o 0( z " 22 I would suggest to us who were on that team that we do what 23 he suggests and invite a responsible member from either 24 this side of the hill or however we want to do that, in 25 order to provide that balance that not only he, but several W IL 45. �others have suggested. I think we ought to consider that. 2 That's more of a statement to these guys than the crowd, 3 but I think it's a legitimate thing to bring up. 4 MR. NUFFER: 5 (At 8:43 p.m., Wednesday, March 4, 1987, the . 6 7 Thank you. meeting ended.) -000- 8 9 10 11 12 ) 13 14 15 16 17 18 .1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ) 46. �r - - - - - - - - - - - -- ------- - -..-_ . C L ! -~ r 'T' I 2 3 State of Utah county of Salt Lake 5 I, Ronald r . Llul.1.;;trd, 01 0 here!.. '.' certify that I ,un a certified shorthand reporter in ano [or the ~~t() te of Utal'lt 7 8 proceedings, and that tlLi : ; 9 correct record of said proceedinqs. 10 11 Dated a t of 12 ()~r~ Sal t Lr -· ll l~i cr..i.pt L.'1J:(~ C ity, ..i. :.~ ,l Lull, true, Utah, tlnd day 1986. (R~&.~..2__ 13 '~ '. !lon.:lld F . 14 IIubbilrd - 7.30 LTudCJ(~ J1.ui lc1in'J Salt L ~lk.C City, Utah (301) 355-1611 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ::-) L___ _ �. . .- ....' () LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SeOPING MEETTNGS . 3« 1987 ~o§aD Utah 4, 1981 - Gar-en city, Ut~ March ~rch ) \~ /V2) �, I LOGAN·CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING -MEETTNGS I March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 1987 - Garden City, Utah NAME REPRESENTING r/\~ t>-Av DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? j!cJ~ } r. I �LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING . . - "\ 1 I ~ \ ....J . ~NGS March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 1987 - Garden ' City, Utah I ; NAME REPRESENTING DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? �•• I LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING MEETINGS March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 19~7 - Garden City, Utah DO YOU WISH TO - ). � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/55">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/55</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000. Checksum 372804673 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 29603450 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public scoping meeting for the Logan Canyon environmental study Description An account of the resource Transcript from the public scoping meeting for the Logan Canyon environmental study held at City Hall in Garden City, Utah on March 10, 1986 where several spoke and answered questions. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hubbard, Ronald F. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mattson, Otto Brown, Ken Johnson, Dee Negus, Barry Peterson, Val Nielson, Bryce Seeholtzer, Ted Stringham, Bryce Flannery, John Preston, George Currel, Russ Wahlstrom, Owen Webb, Cathy Elliot, Ray Hillsman, Lynn Huffner, Don Weston, Todd Anderson, Jess Richardson, Howard Baumgartner, David Subject The topic of the resource United States Highway 89 Logan Canyon (Utah)--History Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Administrative records Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-03-10 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Garden City (Utah) United States Rich County (Utah) Utah Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 11 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB27_Fd11_Page_1.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/d4f3fbd12f09a828683306f8f51a21a2.pdf 49771aba8a4baf947f97982500df30bb PDF Text Text ORIGINAL ") 2 3 4 5 6 7 LOGAN CANYON ENVIRONMENTAL STUDY 8 -000- 9 'f III 0 PUBLIC SCOPING MEETING FOR PUBLIC OFFICIALS AND OTHERS Logan City Hall Logan, Utah '" ~ a: 0 to. 10 March 4, 1987 , 10:08 a.m. 11 -000- 12 Presiding: Conducting: ) Todd Weston State Highway Commissioner Utah Department of TrCinsportatic:n Stanton S. Nuffer Project Manager CH2M Hill 13 14 15 16 17 III N • 18 .... I"l 0> < u 19 0 z III 20 to.! a: ... >- III 21 to.! ~ 0 q: 22 z " to.! a. 23 24 25 " , 'x''''' , ..;;( ~ 1 �) I N D E X 2 8 Statement by Bryan Booth 9 5 Statement by Richard Denton 13 6 Statement by Bruce King 17 7 Statement by Dr. Newel Daines 18 8 Statement by Ted Wilson 23 9 ell Statement by Robert Fotheringham 4 0 3 3 .., Statement by George Preston Statement by Gordon Low 28 III ~ II: 0 ... 10 11 -000- 12 13 14 15 16 17 III 18 ~ l'I en < 19 u 0 Z IJI 20 '" II: IL ~ IJI 21 '" ~ 0 0( 22 z " L&J Q. 23 24 25 .,) i. �) LOGAN, UTAH, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 1987, 10:08 A.M. 2 -000- 3 MR. WESTON: I waited a few minutes beyond the 4 5 I see more participants than I do audience,but we're still 6 • hour hoping we could get a few more people here. going to proceed. 7 & o We need to make some introductioris. I think I'm Todd N 8 Weston. I'm Commissioner with the Department of 9 Transportation for Utah. I'm going to have a few other 10 people introduce some of their people that are here. 11 purpose of meeting today in this meeting--you are aware 12 that we had a large group here last night in this room. 13 The meeting this morning, all those people were invited 14 to come back if they so cared to, if they hadn't had a chance 15 to make any comments on the study we're doing in Logan Canyon 16 for possible improvements and development. 17 I see here again this morning. 18 Our Some of those This meeting was mainly directed toward government 19 officials, public officials, those who we look to to 20 represent the public in general in their positions. 21 sorry that we don't have more of them here, and we ought 22 to have in my judgment. 23 what their time frames are, and I'm sure they were all 24 invited, maybe just through the newspaper. 25 Individual letters were sent to all city mayors. I'm But each one of those people know I don't know. ) 2. �) (Further comments by Mr. Weston. 2 of officials present were made. 3 Barker. 4 themselves. 5 were projected upon the wall, and Mr. Barker gave a 6 narration. 7 slides.) 9 Mr~ Sheldon Mr. Barker has all other present introduce Further comments by Mr. Weston. Colored slides Mr. Nuffer continued the narration of the MR. NUFFER: 8 Comments by Introductions If anybody didn't· sign, it doesn't mean that you're not going to get to testify here. We will 10 11 Preston representing Rich County. 12 ) begin with this, and the first name on the list is George microphone or if you would prefer to come up to this one. 13 This is a little better mike. 14 leave that up to your discretion. MR. GEORGE PRESTON: 15 You can use either that But that one does work. Thank you. I'll Having made 16 some remarks personally last night, I have talked to the 17 Commissioner, and he indicated to me that he had some remarks 18 that he wanted to be made in behalf of the county. 19 Commissioner Day over there, and that's why the Commissioners 20 aren't here. 21 in it. n asked to speak. It's It's not that they don't have an interest It's that they have business over there, and I was Basically, Rich County consists of 2,000 people 23 24 located along Bear Lake and in the Woodruff and Randolph 25 areas. These people are concerned about getting in and ,J 3• �) out of Bear Lake. 2 If you will recall, the roads in the winter time 3 are extremely difficult and many times impossible. The 4 life blood of that community is a transportation system 5 for the people coming in and coming out of the community. 6 As you know, the oil interests have decreased there. 7 income of the county has decreased. 8 for businesses. The Rich County is looking You can't attract businesses, you can't attract 9 10 11 transportation system. 12 of Rich County do not want a roadway that · is uncontrolled 13 construction, . consists of poor planning, and one which would 14 essentially disrupt the ecosystems that exist along. the 15 ) tourists, you cannot generate income without an adequate highway. 16 On the other hand, .the residents They feel that a critical safety factor is 17 presently in the corners and in the bridges, which must 18 be replaced. < u 19 abdicate our responsibility at this time, leave the roadway IJ 20 where it is, and pass this problem along to our future 21 generations, obviously at a much higher cost both in study 22 time and in construction time. ~ .... .., . It is very easy to do nothing. We can en .... VI .... ~ tr 23 Had our forefathers done this--and they traveled 24 to Bear Lake on a wagon wheel road, it took two days--and 25 had our forefathers been members of the Sierra Club and .J 4. �) other clubs, we probably would still be faced with that 2 same form of transportation. 3 something about it. 4 improvement. 5 This is the time to do This is the time to make a significant With regards specifically to problems existing 6 on the road, you have approximately five to six turns in 7 that road that are of a decreasing radius turn, depending 8 on which way you're traveling upon that turn. 9 decreasing radius, you are going from a shallow turn at By 10 its inception to an increasingly sharper turn throughout 11 the course of the turn. 12 If you follow people, particularly out of state 13 people, on those turns, they overshoot those turns. 14 fail to slow down sufficiently on those turns; and, 15 therefore, it is an extremely dangerous turn, not only for 16 ) the person going down, but also the person coming up. 17 18 19 They The bridges, you have three major bridges that are problems, the Burnt Bridge and the Upper Twin Bridges. I'm on the National Ski Patrol, and every year 20 we go up there and pick up beer cans along the road. 21 Incidentally, there's a lot of them, which means there is 22 alcohol consumed on that road to a great extent. 23 you pick up the beer cans under the bridge and look up, 24 you really have a second thought about whether or not you 25 want to travel that bridge. But when In many instances, those ) 5. �bridges by reason of the salt that the state has kindly 2 furnished to the road has practically eaten away the concrete 3 on the bridge, and they are unsafe. 4 I think they're a hazard right now. 5 They should be replaced. The Burnt Bridge has had two accidents on the 6 Burnt Bridge last weekend as a result of traffic on there. 7 It is so narrow that a pass was not effectuated properly. And if you have tried to pass a Miller truck 8 9 on the Burnt Bridge, you've got some serious problems, 10 11 uphill and downhill are from a curve. 12 that bridge not from a straightaway, where you can kind 13 of get your sights on it. 14 curve, and it makes it an extremely difficult bridge to 15 pass on. 16 that's· pulling a trailer house on that bridge, they want 17 their share right out of the center. 18 < u because both ends of that, both approaches to the bridge, dangerous place. ~ 20 ~ You're approaching it from a If you've tried to pass a person from out of state So it's an extremely Those are examples of the types of things that 19 o z w So you're approaching inhibit travel and which should be looked at. ~ Thirdly, the speed limit. 21 The speed limit is 22 at 35 miles an hour. 23 that speed limit, including the officers that control the 24 canyon. 25 straightaways are reasonable and prudent to go 40 to 45. Why? I do not know of anyone who observes The turns are set for 35, but the ) 6. �) So what are we doing? We're posting the travel 2 in the canyon for the lowest speed limit that is practical 3 on the corners. 4 by reason of the nature of the construction to travel at 5 the higher speeds on the straight, slow down on the corners. And so we are actually inviting people I think that improvements to the corners would 6 7 facilitate travel, increase safety · significantly. The last 8 comment is on bicycles. 9 the canyon in the summer-spring, you will find bikes up If you look at the lower part of 10 and down the canyon. In fact, there. is a lot of bicycle 11 travel up there, a lot of people running on the side of 12 the road. 13 Do you find that in the areas under consideration? 14 No, because you put one bike--I'm talking about pedal bikes-- 15 but one bike on that road, two cars passing, and someone 16 is going to get hurt. Now, we can't do anything about the people that 17 d8 have died before on that road. 19 obligation to look at the people who are yet to die on that 20 road. 21 But .I think we have an Is Mr. Baumgartner present? Has this road 22 actually been designated presently as a Scenic Highway, 23 or is it under consideration for designation? 24 25 MR. DAVE BAUMGARTNER: Under consideration. A decision has been made in our forest plan to manage it as 7. �) a Scenic Highway and then encourage the State to designate it as such. 3 the Forest Service has an option to do it themselves. 4 If the State isn't capable of doing that~ 2 MR. PRESTON: 5 6 ., and dried right now? Is that correct? 7 ell o So that designation is not cut It's still open for some consideration? MR. BAUMGARTNER: Yes and no. Once again, because '" l: a: 8 of .our management policy in the canyon, we are going to 9 o II.. manage it as a Scenic Highway, even though it doesn't have 10 an official designation. MR. PRESTON: 11 Thank you. With those comments, 12 13 tonight. 14 that road with a view towards looking at that road, seeing 15 where damage won't be done, seeing where improvements can 16 be made; and if you decide to drive that road at about 17 ) I would ,like to invite you all to come to Rich County 4 o'clock when the skiers are coming down from the ski area, . 18 < u When you do come to Rich County, please drive you've got one car every 27 seconds approaching you, some 19 of which have been dri.nking, I think you would want some 20 improvements to that road. o Z 1/1 I.J a: II.. .: 1/1 21 a « z " Thank you. 22 I.J ~ MR. NUFFER: (Applause.) Thank you. The next one indicating I.J IL 23 an interest in speaking is Robert Fotheringham, and then 24 we have Bryan Booth. 25 MR. ROBERT FOTHERINGHAM: I'm really not here . I ( 8. �) to recommend any alternatives to CH2M Hill. However, there 2 is only one alternative that may possibly not affect the 3 stream, and that would be the No Alternative solution to 4 the problem. 5 that. I'm not presentjng that I'm for that or against In 1985 the Utah Legislature deemed it necessary 6 7 to amend one of the laws in the state which says that any 8 time you affect a natural stream in any way, you must receive 9 written approval from the State Engineer to do that. If 10 11 other than Alternative A or No Alternative, there is a 12 probability that you will in some reach of your construction 13 ..> you do, or if you approach any alternative to this problem affect the river. 14 approval from the State Engineer, and I will leave a copy 15 of the Code, 73-3-29, with one of the committee, so you 16 can look at that. In doing that, you will require written I don't know at what point in time you would 17 18 want to start informing the State Engineer of any plans, 19 but the earlier those are received the better they can be 20 reviewed. 21 22 23 24 25 That's all I have. MR. NUFFER: (Applause.) Thank you, Robert. Bryan Booth, and then we'll have Richard Denton. MR. BRYAN BOOTH: I didn't dare speak up. I was here last night, but There were too many here. Bryan Booth, of course. My main interest, of 9. �) course, is since I am a Bear Laker by nativity and since 2 3 development. 5 park just north of Garden City for 15 years. 6 people from other areas, other states, that came over that 7 with their trailers behind them, they were shaking like 8 a leaf by the time they got in to my trailer park. 9 ., . of business, I'm interested in this highway and its 4 o ... I'm there a good share of the year now and have a place said they had never driven anything so scary as Logan Canyon. 10 I built and operated an overnight trailer Some of the They They didn't have time to look at the scenery at all. Since selling this overnight trailer park to 11 12 Camper World about 10 years ago, I have built and operate 13 now a mobile home park back of my home, almost adjacent 14 to that same area. Whenever a big mobile home comes in from somewhere 15 16 17 Soda Springs, because they are scared to death, and, of 18. < u they have to generally go around by Evanston or around by course, the Highway Patrol is not too happy to see them 19 go through Logan Canyon, especially if it's a 65 or 70-foot 20 trailer. o Z III W a: ... .... III W ~ 21 Someone mentioned the guardrails. I'm grateful o « z " w 22 to see so many of them installed recently. Of course, where 23 they have been installed on the edge of the bridges, that 24 has narrowed these bridges about 10 to 12 inches. 25 of course, a lot of people are scared to death of those. a.. And, 10. �-> As has been mentioned so many times, it's a hazard to cross 2 them when someone else is coming. Now, as far as the deer being killed, I'm sure 3 4 that if the trees were moved back a little farther, they 5 would be able to see a deer before you hit him. 6 they just appear out of nowhere without any problem at all, 7 so far as they're concerned. But now I would make one suggestion in the interim that 8 9 10 the side of the road that appears about the middle of the 11 summer, the deer sneak out of those in a hurry, and you 12 would be able to see them a little sooner if that were the 13 ) if the Highway Department would cut that high grass along case. I've never counted the times I've traveled Logan 14 15 16 State. 17 .f Canyon from Bear. Lake to Logan. while I was teaching. 18 I got my education at Utah I got my master's degree mostly in the summer schools I taught two years in Cache Valley . I'm sure the people won't slow down whether 19 20 night, the hazards of people passing you on a double line, 21 I've had that happen time and time again. 22 ~lo,..r anything is done or not, because, as someone mentioned last someone with a high speed powerful car whizzed by me on 23 a double line, and 10 24 at almost the same speed, and T had to throw on my brakes 25 to avoid a crash; that is, for him to avoid a crash. On one occasion and behold, another car was coming So 11. �) it's happening all the time on curves and everywhere. People 2 are so · anxious to go places and to go there so quickly, 3 that it's almost an impossible situation to control it. 4 Sometimes these people in Bear Lake who have 5 6 ., a lot of trouble with the deer wish there were more killed ·on the highway, especially the females, with the hay stacks 7 o Of course, we've got one · man in Rich County who will ·take 9 III and elsewhere. 8 .. And I've had a lot of experi'encewi.th that . care of it, if you don't do something about ~ a: o ... 10 that~ So I'm anxious to have something done. I haven't 11 12 recommendations. 13 for the whole thing must be finalized before any portion . 14 of it is done. 15 is done and whatever can be done as the time goes on, I'm 16 for it; and I'm sure that if we vote against anything being 17 done in Bear Lake, the Logan Canyon Road, that that money, 18 whatever is available, will go somewhere else, and I think 19 we want it on this canyon. 20 particularly recently complaining about the first half of 21 Logan Canyon. 22 of screaming about the spoiling of the environment. 23 it's a beautiful road, and I think it's much better now 24 than it was before, and the scenery is better. 25 < u studied the proposal carefully enough to make any specific see the leaves in the fall; and if the trees are too close o I suspect that whatever is done, the plan That is my guess, anyway. And so whatever I don't remember anybody Z !II 101 II: IL Yet, when that was proposed, we heard a lot I think You can ) 12. �to the road, you can't. One other item that hasn't been mentioned. 2 3 Someone mentioned last night that it would be a good idea 4 to move the trees back, but some of them and most of them 5 that are right close to the road are being killed by salt 6 that the snowplows obviously and unavoidably have to plow 7 off, and it hits these trees and eventually some of them 8 die. 9 with a wood stove wouldn't dare cut one or he would be in So many of those trees are very unsightly. A person 10 11 of those that are dead and haul them in for wood for somebody 12 .) trouble, but I wish the Highway Department would cut a few the widows or someone else who needs them. 13 I think that's all I have to say. 14 MR. NUFFER: 15 16 17 · 18 19 . ( Applause. ) After Richard, we'll have Bruce King. MR. RICHARD DENTON: My name is Richard Denton. I'm an environmental scientist with the Bureau of Water Pollution Control. I'm not going to address one of ·the different 20 issues that have been addressed here whether the road should 21 be built or not. 22 concern as far as water quality within the canyon. 23 Logan River is classified in the state system as 2B, which 24 is for water-borne recreation, 3A a cold water fishery, 25 and 4, agriculture and irrigation. I'll try to limit my remarks to our Bureau'~ Presently 13. �Under state law we are required to protect the 2 3 type of thing going on. 7 • probably a limited amount of canoeing, kayaking, and that 6 o agriculture. 5 II mainly as a cold water fishery and aquatic life and for 4 .. Logan River for these three different stream classifications, imagine at campgrounds and things like 8 9 In that section of the river there is I think There is some water contact I this~ The entire Logan River from the mouth of the canyon upstream on the forest is also classified as an 10 antidegradation segment for the State, and as such we are 11 required to protect the stream from any type of activity -12 13 14 wi thin that stream that may degradate the water quality and the aquatic system within the canyon. After talking with our staff and looking at some 15 16 Right Hand Fork to -Ricks Spring, we as a staff feel that 17 very little widening of the road or construction in that 18 area could be done without affecting water quality. 19 Presently in most of those reaches through there there is 20 a good riparian zone, trees and shrubs and what not, that 21 protect the river from the highway and from the use from 22 the highway. 23 < u of the alternatives here, especially in the section from water quality would suffer. o Z III '" ... I[ If any of that area was disturbed, then the 24 One thing the riparian zone does is it acts as 25 a buffer system to protect the stream from such things as ) 14. �) surface runoff of the road, which is extremely high in 2 salts, turbidity from any type of erosion that may occur, 3 affords some protection from any type of gasoline spills. 4 If a tanker turns over, what not, it offers some protection, 5 unless in some places it would go directly into the river. So I think that's where our Bureau is coming 6 7 from. 8 we will be insisting that we review what plans are come 9 up with by the committee or the tech team, and we will have 10 11 We are involved in the NEPA process, and as such to give approval for the different aspects of that. One thing is that if there is any construction 12 13 road alignments, we will have to have turbidi ty waivers 14 for · the stream. 15 affected, those will require sediment control structures, 16 .> involved, whether it's bridges or whether it's anything, different things, to protect water quality. 17 If any section of the stream will be I don't want to say this in picking on the DOT 18 right at the moment, but we have seen some good and some 19 bad things that have happened on road construction within 20 the state in the last few years. 21 seen in the last few years is the new Interstate 80, or 22 70, I guess it is, through Clear Creek Canyon. 23 with everyone to protect water quality and to improve the 24 stream or to reconstruct it, whatever needed to be done, 25 I think we've ended up with a compatible situation there A good example that we've DOT working ") 15. �where the stream runs through a closed canyon and we still 2 have a good trout fishery, we have good water quality, and 3 those things have been met. 4 A situation that's 100 degrees around from that, 5 6 by thousands of tons of sediment a year going into the Weber 8 River. 9 ca o see that we have increased turbidity loads in that canyon 7 · .. though, is the interstate down through Echo Canyon. We Wasatch Front. l: II: o ... The Weber River is a culinary water source for the And now we're going to end up--we have a 10 team put together to try to correct some of those things, 11 and it's probably going to cost hundreds 12 dollars to try to reconstruct that stream and to get - rosion e - 13 14 -15 of thousands of under control and to protect water quality that's going into the Weber River. We have had problems in Little and Big Cottonwood 16 17 I f think we're going to have - to work very closely with you 19 to ensure that we do not see some of these same problems 20 o construction. 18 < u canyons, for example, with erosion because of road in the canyon here. So like I say, I'm not picking on DOT, but Z (/) W II: ... t(/) 21 w ~ o < As I look at the alternatives, and we've studied 22 them with the staff, I think that we as a staff would have 23 to recommend probably Alternative B. 24 go with "A." 25 z " ... and still protect the integrity of the stream. a.. I see no reason to I think things could be done within the canyon But, like ) 16. �) I say, especially on the lower one section in there, as 2 a staff we feel that very little could probably be done 3 and still ensure water quality and protect the state's 4 standards, and that's where we're coming from. I believe those are about all the comments I 5 6 have. We would like to, like I say, be kept informed, and 7 we will be requiring you to put some of these things through 8 as part of the NEPA process. 9 Thank you. MR. NUFFER: 10 Thank you. (Applause.) and then Newel Daines. 11 MR. BRUCE KING: We'll have Bruce King Bruce King representing Cache 12 County Government. 13 commendation to UDOT and the consultant here for the process 14 that's going forward. 15 irreconcilably separated on distant poles, I think a ·great 16 purpose is being accomplished by affording the public this 17 opportunity to be heard. 18 I'd like to comment just briefly by Even if the various interests were There's great value in that. On the second point, I don't think we are 19 irreconcilably disparate on our poles. 20 also by what I see as an ability to get together and carve 21 a compromise here that will preserve important values and 22 still give us a significant benefit by way of facility and 23 improvement in that canyon. 24 25 I am encouraged With regard to the position of public officials and specifically Cache County, I don't have anything to ) 17. �recommend at this point, except to indicate that our new 2 3 that you'll have that. 6 of the council here today. 7 III submit something in writing during the comment period, so 5 ., one section. 4 o ... county council has reviewed this issue preliminarily in presence. Of course, there are two members I want to acknowledge their So something should be forthcoming there . I'm also going to take the initiative in meeting 8 9 I'll encourage them to do so again and to with the Mayors Association a week from Saturday, to take 10 11 them either collectively or individually, and perhaps in 12 . ) copies of your comment sheets and summaries and encourage consultation with individual city councils to give you some 13 written response within the comment period, as well. 14 So, again thanks for the opportunity afforded 15 for us to be involved in this process. 16 something meaningful to you within the period. 17 ( Applause. 18 < u o We hope to have Thank you. ) MR. NUFFER: Mayor Daines is the last one who 19 has indicated an interest. 20 If there is anyone else, we will open that up. Z III W a:: I<. ~ III W ~ TIR. NEWEL DAINES: 21 I was kind of the old timer o « Cl z 22 W in this group until I saw Mr. Booth. Q. I have driven that canyon road since it had no 23 24 asphalt from the mouth of the canyon up. 25 it. I've ridden on I didn't drive it at that time. 18. �) I'm kind of wearing three hats this morning. 2 I would like to wear the hat, the personal hat as an old 3 timer from the 1930's right on through to today. 4 taxpayer and a supporter of Rich County as well as Cache 5 County. 6 boxes along Bear Lake and utilize it a considerable amount 7 of the time, about six months out of the year. 8 that canyon consistently on an average I would imagine 100 9 times a year. I'm a I own one of those what they refer to as cracker I'm a skier. 10 I'm a boater. So I drive I don't have a 11 10-foot-wide boat. 12 wide boats. 13 than about an 8-foot through the canyon without some special 14 permits. 15 an important part of the things that I'd like to talk about. 16 I don't think there are many 10-foot- As far as I know, you can't take anything wider Isn't that correct, Howard? But I think that's No.2, the hat that I would like to put on is 17 my surgical hat. 18 emergency physician in Logan for 3 a years. 19 I've been a physician and the prime I was the first anesthesiologist and intensive 20 care physician in the valley. So I've seen the change in 21 emergency medical services that has come into the valley. 22 I also have relatives that have practiced medicine in 23 Evanston, Montpelier. 24 that has 10,000 clients that use that road for emergency 25 medical services. We really have a medical center here There are about 8,000 people in the Bear .) 19. �Lake County. We are the largest Class 2 medical center 2 that services Star Valley, all of Rich County, Bear Lake 3 County, and even down into the southwestern part of Wyoming, 4 Cokeville and those areas. 5 So I've seen the use of this road as an emergency 6 7 ., III o road for medical services, and I would like to mention that for a minute . OJ 1: II: 8 A n d then I am a Johnnie-Corne-Lately of about o '" 9 five years experience as the mayor of Logan. Both Bruce 10 and I have the same feeling. We will bring these problems 11 to the Cache County Mayors' Association for their input, 12 and I certainly will go to the Municipal Council as we had 13 discussed this in the past for their involvement in 14 recommending to th.isgroup what kind of a road services . 15 we feel we need .. .But I want you to remember that Logan 16 City is about half of the population of Cache County. Back in the sixties, I was aware of the alarm 17 III ,.. OJ 18 miles. 20 < u that attended our community as we upgraded the lower 12 19 en '" I am proud of even the lower 12 miles. o z I have lived in Logan continuously since 1957, and (/I w :z: '" 21 Next week I have a house guest coming from New 22 York City who is the vice president and director of all 23 the travel services for American Express. 24 be proud to show her the whole canyon and take her and her 25 children, and ·my grandchildren are coming out from New York This lady, I'll 20. 'Ie -.. , • ~ .. , " �with them, skiing and show them what we have. I'm proud 2 of all that canyon, and I certainly join with the rest of 3 you in not wanting 4 the Right Hand Fork and Ricks Spring. to rape that five or six miles between But I think that this bottleneck that I look 5 6 at from my medical standpoint and my personal standpoint, 7 I think that bottleneck from the Forks to the Ricks Spring 8 deserves our sensitive attention. 9 and augment the facilities to make this area safely I think we can preserve 10 11 to remember that it is also a conduit for 10,000 residents 12 .> available for all of our citizens. I think that we want over the hill, that we have to be sensitive to their 13 requirements . Now, it's only last Saturday about 10 o'clock 14 15 that we had a IS-year old from Soda Springs receive as he 16 collided with a six-inch Quaker serious injury to his femur, 17 a fracture. 18 This is my third time to ski this winter. 19 my day of skiing to bring him down the canyon in my Ram 20 Charger ambulance, so to speak, because he needed continual 21 traction on that. 22 time with a bare road. 23 accident, as we have had many bad head injuries in the canyon 24 by hikers and especially bikers--I remember the bad one 25 that occurred just below the dugway--if this had occurred He had circulatory impairment of his foot. I interrupted And I was happy that it was in the winter If this had been the type of an 21. �) in the summer, between June and September, I would have 2 had a significant delay as I had tried to negotiate that 3 area between Ricks Spring and the Forks as I tried to bring 4 this patient down the canyon rapidly to put him in a position 5 where we could give him the best of medical care. 6 ~ Our records are replete with instances of 7 transportation time impacting survival of life and limb. 8 And Mr. Booth doesn't know about them, but I could name 9 ca o you within the last five years significant impact of time N 10 transmitting patients from Bear Lake with medical emergencies 11 such as ladies with massive hemorrhages, what we call 12 placenta previa or retained placentas. 13 them here. 14 you look at the tradeoffs in this choke, this choke that 15 I call from Ricks Spring to the Forks. 16 And we have to get So I think you need to keep this in mind as But I think we can come to make some compromises 17 in this area on alignment, bridge repair. 18 ought to really look at having significant areas in this 19 section of the highway that do have adequate passing lanes, 20 especially for emergency vehicles. 21 that happens to people as they drive on areas of roads where 22 they don't get around, and then they start taking 23 And that's what happens as I've seen it over the last 40 24 years that I've been driving the canyon, 45, that I 25 personally have been driving that canyon road, over 45 years. <: u o But I think we z I/) '" "- II: And then the frustration chances~ ) 22. �I think it's a thing that we should try and cut down that 2 frustration. 3 I am sensitive to the water quality. 4 has tried to work and will work and have worked as we have 5 tried to preserve the canyon. 6 that have to be considered as we look at the canyon as a 7 commercial, as a recreational resource, and as a base for 8 the resources of our community; and certainly water quality 9 and recreation are probably very important ·as we look at 10 11 12 13 it. Thank you. Logan City But there are other menus (Applause.) MR. NUFFER: Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Is there anyone else who would care to comment? MR. TED WILSON: This is a very impressive group 14 as far as Logan Canyon. 15 quite this strong a group. 16 a resident of Logan and of Bear Lake. 17 developer in Bear Lake. 18 towards the development or the property which is greatly 19 affected by any of these alignments. 20 I didn't think they could gather My name is Ted Wilson. I'm I'm also a real estate My comments are not going to be I have traveled Logan Canyon all my life and 21 very heavily. A couple of things that I kind of see that 22 I feel may be overlooked or a little bit on the soft side, 23 I have just jotted them down here. 24 that states that anticipated growth would .be about 2 percent, 25 I think that's very mild to what the growth can be if the No.1, in the survey 23. �road is improved. 2 Now, I'm for the improvement of the road, and 3 I'm against it in a lot of instances. 4 Daines just mentioned is a very, very critical, touchy area. 5 I think we can go through that area with some mild 6 improvements and some major improvements above. 7 really backs up really bad in the summer time. 8 R.V., recreational vehicles towing other recreational 9 vehicles towing other recreational vehicles, I've seen them The area that Mayor That road Right now 10 hooked on to three. 11 a boat. 12 idea. 13 behind, it, even on the straightaways, where the lines are 14 passable now, they won't pass. 15 and another car and another car. 16 tempers building as people are trying to get to Bear Lake 17 or Yellowstone or wherever. 18 I've seen a motor home, a car, and . Now, how the State even allows that, I have no I mean, that going up Logan Canyon, you get people Then you get another car And you can just see the The first 1.8 miles with mild improvement of 19 a couple of pass lanes, a couple of pulloffs, heavy signing, 20 slower vehicles, you know, if you get four behind you, in 21 some states you have to pull off. 22 have that law. 23 backing up four, you can get a ticket. 24 Legislature ought to look into something like this, because 25 it's terrible. Now, I guess Utah doesn't But I've heard of other states, if you're Maybe the I have counted 20, 30 cars backed up behind .) 24. �) one cautious Midwesterner that hits these mountains and 2 is petrified. 3 Like Bryan said, it's scary to people. If you touch that area carefully where it's 4 critical, come out in what we call the Crookston Flats, 5 improve it more than these maps are, with decent passing 6 lanes where you're back off the river and won't disturb 7 the water quality. 8 pieces of water in the United States. There's just no 9 question about it. We need to watch 10 the water quality. The Logan River is one of the classic So is the canyon. Mr. Denton referred to the salt, or improvement 11 12 of the road making the salt run into the river and possibly 13 a tanker spill. 14 runs into the river. 15 is no place for it to go but into the river. 16 of that road could improve the possible tanker spills. 17 shoulders of that road are so dangerous. All the water and all the salt right now I mean, you get the runoff. There Improvement The Myself--I'm not Dr. Daines--I have helped seven 18 19 to eight very critical accidents in that canyon. 20 one of them has been above the Forks. 21 of them. 22 out of rivers. 23 with an improved road, most of those accidents may have 24 been prevented, because they were almost always on a steep 25 or people passing where they should not have been. Every single one I've pulled babies out of cars. That's my nature. Every I've pulled people I'll stop and help. But Why ') - ~ 25. �) they do that, I don't know. An improved road won't stop 2 that, but it will help it, if you can get traffic around 3 the slower vehicles. 4 My recommendations, then, would just be really 5 6 If you got that so that they can pass there, I think you 8 CII o you've got half the canyon, half the canyon is passable. 7 ., .. careful in the critical areas, but the open flat areas-- would speed up the flow and deter accidents. 9 Mr. King, who, of course, just moved into his 10 position, mentioned that the County hasn't looked at the 11 situation thoroughly yet. 12 look at it. I would recommend that Mr. King 13 17 along the side of the lake. and coming down in, instead of through Cache County. 19 I would strongly suggest Cache County officials really look 20 at the situation very carefully. 21 money. 22 o Lake to get to Bear Lake where they have these shanties 18 < Canyon. 16 U really being hurt because of the flow of traffic in Logan 15 " f Our economy of Cache Valley and Rich County is 14 ) as far as the economy of Cache Valley for that purpose. Many, many of the people now go up through Salt They are going through Randolph So Z III W II: ~ It's economy. It's tax dollars. It's And Logan Canyon needs to be improved The people going to Yellowstone are looking for 23 24 alternate routes. 25 highway. Logan Canyon is a dangerous piece of The deaths that occur in there I think you all " ) 26. �should think of that. Some day it might be one of your 2 kids. I've had friends' kids that have been killed in there 3 senselessly. 4 helped a baby out of a semi-truck that had rolled over. 5 The baby was wrapped in a blanket in a windshield. 6 windshield had collapsed right around the baby. 7 was unconscious, and the father was out wandering around 8 through the field just totally in a daze. 9 the semi-truck, it was upside down. It's got to be improved. The shoulders--I The The mother When I got to The wheels were still 10 11 pulled that baby out of the windshield. 12 in that baby blanket, comforter, a real thick comforter--that 13 baby didn't have a scratch on it. 14 accident was a shoulder of the road. 15 pulled off because another truck was coming by. 16 one wheel off that shoulder, and he went just like that. 17 It was not his fault. 18 fault as far as I'm concerned. 19 It really is. 20 whatever you decide is the best for all. 21 ) turning and everything. an interest that needs to be looked at. 22 That baby started to cry, and I Had it not been But the cause of that That semi driver just He caught It's the Department of Highway's That road is atrocious. It needs to be repaired, fixed, changed, All of you have As far as the people of Garden City. I have 23 a business in Garden City. All those little black dots 24 on this one map, I guess some people say I raped the mountain 25 But that was my choice to do with my land. But the residents ) 27. �) of Rich County and Bear Lake county are being financially 2 3 o by way of Soda Springs. 6 that they manufacture up here,is almost financially not 7 worth it over there, because it costs $1,000 more today 8 than it did five years ago simply because of the route that 9 III a piece of farm equipment to Rich County, they have to go 5 ., restricted the width through here. 4 - handicapped because of this road. they have to take to get a manufactured home into Rich County, .... The State of Utah has If they want to take A home, one of these double wides :l: a: o ... 10 and I guess the width is the reason they are restricted. 11 I appreciate your time, gentlemen. I'm sorry 12 I was unable to be here last night when the public should 13 have spoken, but I appreciate your giving me a moment. 14 (Applause.) MR. NUFFER: 15 16 Thank you. Is there anyone else? Yes, sir. MR. GORDON LOW: 17 As indicated earlier, I'm Gordon 18 < u o Low. I'm here on behalf of Lyle Hillyard. He didn't ask 19 me to state a position or any recommendations. 20 to him that he ought to consider--not consider--suggest. 21 I have just a couple of comments to make. I suggested Z til W a: ... ...: til w ~ o <t " Z 22 W IL One concern I have is that this projection goes 23 to the year 2010. As I understand it, the improvements 24 may make this an adequate road until that year. 25 is what happens thereafter. My concern 28. �I think everybody doesn't anticipate a four-lane 2 highway through this canyon. 3 going to be adequate for 20 years, perhaps we ought to look 4 at an alternative route. 5 economic development and so on, I think there are some strong 6 feelings on the other side that perhaps people from Salt 7 Lake and Ogden should take alternate routes to Bear Lake 8 and Yellowstone and not use Logan Canyon. 9 are not amenable to the kinds of traffic that some of us 10 My concern is if this is only Contrary to Ted's feelings about Some places simply like to see go up there. I know this hits at the heart of economic 11 12 13 it's time to take a close look at that. 14 what other alternatives have been considered as far as 15 perhaps major roadways, the Blacksmith's Fork area, 16 ) development. But, on the other hand, I think that perhaps Strawberry, by Preston, or whatever. I'm concerned about I'm concerned about restrictions on this road. 17 18 I'm not sure how big of a problem the trucks are. 19 passed them on the bridges also. 20 some restrictions on the use of this highway for that kind 21 of traffic. 22 an alternative consideration. 23 I don't know. I have Perhaps there should be But I hope that that would be I'm concerned about enfoT-cement. Perhaps I've 24 25 .. been on the other side of the counsel table from Jud Preston too many times. But I get a little concerned when we want ) 29. �') to widen the road and increase the speed when one of the -- 2 concerns is alcohol. 3 Frankly, I drive from here to Brigham quite often. 4 5 Garden City. Maybe we need better enforcement and more 7 enforcement. I don't know. 8 III between here and Brigham as I'll ever see between here and 6 " o ... I'll see three or four times as many Highway Patrolmen alternatives. I'm just suggesting these as ~ a: o "- I'm concerned, as I'm sure many are, with respect 9 10 11 concerned about sediment and a second dam right now. 12 suspect that much improvement will present a considerably 13 larger problem with sedimentation both in that dam and in 14 the Third Dam. And I suspect that 15 11.-+ to the alteration of the river. I see Logan City is consideration. Perhaps it has been. I ought to be a I really don't have any strong suggestions or 16 17 18 are strongly considered, with not just 20 years anticipated 20 in the future, probably 40 or 50, and perhaps increased 21 o have already been expressed. 19 < u recommendations. I just have some concerns, most of which enforcement. I hope alternative routes Z IJI 101 a: "- .... IJI 101 ~ o <( u MR. NUFFER: 22 Z Anyone else? Now is your chance. 101 II. 23 Again, let me mention that we will receive written comments 24 up through the 6th of April. 25 to do that. And we would encourage you ) 30. �Yes, sir. 2 3 A VOICE: Where will those comments be directed? I don't see any address or an agency. 4 MR. NUFFER: I believe we have a sheet of paper 5 at the back that is set up for that purpose that has an 6 address at the bottom. 7 8 Anything else that anyone would like to comment on or bring to our attention? 9 Thank you all for being here. 10 appreciate your input. 11 We really the future. 12 ) I believe you were just handed one. 13 14 We will be in touch with you in (At 11:28 a.m., Wednesday, March 4, 1987, the hearing ended.) -000- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .J 31. �" . C E R T I F I e ATE :l ! ! I 3 4 i State of Utah i I County of Salt I I Lake I, Ronald F. Hubbard, do hereby certify that I am 5 I ! a certified shorthand reporter in and for the State of Utah, 6 I' 7 I 8 License No. 32; that I reported in shorthand the foregoing I ! proceedings, and that this transcript is a full, true, and i 9 correct record of said proceedings. to da.y Dated at Salt Lake City, Utah, this " of 1931· 12 13 'I i ___ ~Q"J. ~~__ _ ~ald F. Hubbard 230 Judge Building Sal t L .:} ke Ci ·ty t uta.h 14 .! ,i ·1 15 : ( 801) ! i . 355- 3611 I 16 I i i ! 17 j 18 ! ! 19 1 20 ! 21 I i I 221 23 I 24 ! I I 251 . -- _. _._- -_._---_ - ----- - _._._ - ----_._---._ �/ 1r~~~ I D~ LOGAN-CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING MEETINGS ~ March .~, 1987 - Logan, Utah \ /0 :0-0 -Ma.Gb 4, 1-987 - Galdell City;--Utah-' DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? ) �LOGAN·CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING~NGS i --; \ March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4·, 1987 - Garden City, Utah NAME ) ) . ' ''. · .. h.. , ' ' REPRESENTING DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. 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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000. Checksum 1011421546 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 20000735 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public scoping meeting for public officials and others Description An account of the resource Public scoping meeting for public officals and others on the Logan Canyon Environmental Study at Logan City Hall on March 4, 1987. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hubbard, Ronald F. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Preston, George Fotheringham, Robert Booth, Bryan Denton, Richard King, Bruce Daines, Newel Wilson, Ted Low, Gordon Nuffer, Stanton S. Weston, Todd Subject The topic of the resource United States Highway 89 Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Logan (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Administrative records Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-03-04 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan (Utah) United States Utah Cache County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 11 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890. 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Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB27_Fd11_Page_2.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/14543bf93259e4823ef80bb976b0030c.mp3 3fdb21748d70982420ec86c054943f9d https://highway89.org/files/original/2f15c9695e5c5e3b877f54072b0607e1.pdf 341343064e93ff303bacc9460407d016 PDF Text Text LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: William Daly Hurst Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center in SLC, Utah Date of Interview: 11 February 2009 Interviewer: Barbara Middleton & Thad Box Recordist: Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams, 4/23/2009; Bill Hurst; Randy Williams, 7/12/11 Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences on the Forest Service and in Logan Canyon: Cache National Forest. Reference:     BH = Bill Hurst BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) TB = Thad Box (Interviewer; former Dean USU College of Natural Resources and Emeritus Professor: Range Management) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: This is Barbara Middleton and I am here interviewing Bill Hurst with Thad Box and we are both here to talk on the second part of the interview with Bill Hurst. It is Wednesday February 11th 2009; it is about 11 o’clock in the morning and we are here in Salt Lake City, Utah. As you remember from the first tape we started off with Bill’s biographical sketch and now we are going to start with Bill’s relationship with Logan Canyon and where that started with the Cache National Forest. So Bill… Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  1   �BH: I first became acquainted with the Cache National Forest when I went to Logan to enter Utah Agricultural College in 1934. Our professor, mainly Ray Becraft, took us on a number of field trips into Logan Canyon to study plants and the effects of grazing on the vegetation and talk to us about forestry in general. At that time there were only four professors in the School of Forestry. One of them was T.G. Taylor who was head of the School of Forestry. The School didn’t have a Dean at the time. Raymond Becraft taught range and some range related plant identification classes although we did take botany in the Botany Department from Bassett McGuire. The other professors there at the time were Paul M. Dunn who later became Dean when the School of Forestry was founded. A man named McGlochlin and J. Whitney Floyd, who later became Dean, made up the primary faculty in 1934-35. Slim Hansen, a graduate student they brought back to help teach this rather large class of foresters that started in 1934. The Forestry School at Utah State experienced a large increase in students in the fall of 1934, as did many other Forestry Schools around the Country. The Civilian Conservation Camps had a lot to do with this I believe, since many of the Camps were located within the National Forests and young men became acquainted with the forests and the Forest Service. At any rate, that was the faculty in the 1934-35 Forestry School. So that was my first relationship with Logan Canyon and the Old Juniper, the monarch of the forest. [Omits information about moose encounter from tape.] BH: [Later in this paper I will tell you about my first encounter with a moose which took place in Logan Canyon.] TB: You mentioned being up Logan Canyon quite a bit. Did they have a normal Summer Camp or did they just take you up in classes? How did they get you up there to understand the land? BH: [Utah State had no Summer Camp at the time. Their first Summer School was held in August of 1936 in Logan Canyon. During my freshman year,] Dr. Becraft took us on a number of one day field trips. One day we climbed to the top of Mount Logan stopping in each vegetative zone where our teacher explained to us how elevation influences the vegetation in each zone. We went on a number of field trips with him. He loved the field trips and was a really excellent teacher. I attended the first forestry summer camp at Tony Grove in Logan Canyon in the fall of 1936. The Camp lasted about six weeks as I remember. It was held in the old CCC Camp. I think there were about 35-36 of us. Thad, when you were Dean, I gave you my pictures of that camp so they must be at the University some place. TB: Yes. I think they are there somewhere. We’ll dig them out. BH: At that time, Whit Floyd was in charge of the camp. He was a pretty seasoned guy in the University and handled a lot of different camps. Art Smith was a member of the faculty and helped with the Summer Camp, as did Dr. D.I. Rasmussen, head of the Wildlife Department and E.L. Stoddart head of the Range Management Department. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  2   �BM: Bill, can I ask you a question? You mentioned the camp was in the fall of 1936? And I’m familiar with camp being in the summer. Could you explain a little bit of how that worked into your school year? BH: The Fall Quarter would start sometime after the middle of September. Summer Camp would start sometime in August. The year I attended Summer Camp we moved directly from Camp into the class rooms at the University. As far as I know a similar schedule prevailed throughout the history of the Camp. BM: Most of you were working summer jobs and then coming off of those summer jobs right into forestry camp? BH: Yes. I quit herding sheep in mid August and went directly to Summer Camp TB: When you were talking about the faculty you mentioned Art Smith. I’ve had other students tell me that Art broke colts while he was teaching up there, was that true? BH: I wouldn’t be surprised. His uncle, who lived in Idaho; had one of the most highly prized stallions in the State of Idaho. Art lived with his uncle I understand, so I’m sure he was riding his horses. TB: I had several students tell that while he was teaching range classes he’d be breaking the colts at the same time. BH: Yes, that could be true. I’ve never seen the horses with Art, but he was at ease around horses. I’ve never seen him riding any bucking broncos however. BM: So after these six weeks in Summer Camp, then pretty much this crew of camp students would start classes in the fall. BH: Right. And as I said, 1936 was the beginning of that program. I enjoyed summer camp. We had a man and his wife who did the cooking. Their name was Cooley. They did the cooking for many years at the Summer Camp. And I mean they put on a feed at every meal. One of the indelible memories of the camp was a truck wreck we had on the Beaver Creek road east of Summer Camp. The Forestry School had a stake bed a one and a half ton truck. A four and a half foot rack was in place on the truck bed. There were no seats on the truck beds however. When traveling, the occupants would stand up holding onto the racks. One afternoon about half of the camp students and two Professors, Whitney Floyd and Professor Barnes, loaded in the truck to drive out about 10 miles to a study area. The two teachers were in the cab with the driver. All of the students were in the truck bed holding on to the racks. As we paralleled Beaver Creek, a stream laden with willows, a couple in a red sedan came toward us from the opposite direction and failed to yield space on the narrow road. The right hand wheels of our truck went over the edge and the truck fell topside down into Beaver Creek. Only the willows prevented this from Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  3   �being a tragic accident. They cushioned the landing in the creek bed. However, there were many cut faces and arms and some with body cuts. As soon as transportation was available we were all taken to a Logan Budge Hospital [200 North and 300 East] and examined. All but two of us, Virgil Peterson and Clyde Lowe, were returned to Tony Grove Camp for the night. The other two remained in the Hospital for a night or two. TB: Did he destroy the truck? BH: I don’t remember; I don’t think it destroyed it because it landed in the willows also. But the willows were thick enough that it was upside down propped up. TB: The reason I ask, when I started teaching Summer Camp in 1959, we had a 1936 Chevrolet truck, a green one, and two old army 6X6’s. That’s what we took the students out in. I just wondered if that was the same truck or a replacement. BH: Well it could be. It could be the same truck. But that was our thrill for the day. In those pictures that I gave you Thad, Virgil’s still had a bandage on his head. TB: Hum. BM: So in a group like that, were you mixing forestry, wildlife, range; was there a wide assortment of students in that camp? BH: In that day, especially during the first two year of Collage, we didn’t consider ourselves different. We were first and foremost students in the School of Forestry. . Most if not all of us had taken classes together during the first two years of Collage. However, I think in 1936 they had Dr. Stoddart on board; he was head of the Range Department. And they had Dr. Rasmussen on board and he was head of the Wildlife Department. And Paul Dunn, I don’t think they called him a Dean yet, but he was head of the School of Forestry Range and Wildlife, in effect the Dean. At Summer Camp, we were exposed to all of these disciplines. The students were broken down into two or more units. Each unit would then go to the field or class room and study one particular field. The crews would then rotate until all had been exposed to the entire field of study. BM: What time did they get you up in the morning and when did the day end? BH As I remember, we would get up about 6:00 AM and be ready for field work or study by 8:00 AM. I think dinner was around 5:30 or 6:00PM. Lunch would be at noon. We would take lunches to the field and this happened often. BM: And were there evening lectures then? BH: Yes, we had some evening programs but I don’t remember much about them. After a day in the field hiking and climbing hills we were usually tired in the evening. BM: Is it Doc’s Hill? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  4   �BH: Yes, yes Doc. I’m trying to think of his name. TB/BM: Daniel? BH: Oh Doc Daniel yes. He hadn’t arrived at Utah State in 1936. BM: So that was Benchmark Hill. TB: Yes, Benchmark Hill. BH: Yes. TB: Bill, do you have recollections of what the country was like in 1936 up Logan Canyon? As far as you mentioned range conditions that Stoddart was teaching you, as compared to what it is now or other times in your career? BH: Well, no I really don’t. I really don’t. However, during that same period of time I was herding sheep on the Dixie National Forest. I herded sheep the summer before I went to college and the first summer after I started college. I couldn’t get a job so I herded sheep One day I killed a mutton and checked the stomach to see what it had been eating. I found a leaf that looked like a holly leaf. I can’t think of the name of that plant now. It was a heavy leaf with little prickly around the edges BM: Like an Oregon grape? BH: Yes. Well, something like an Oregon grape. BM: Utah Holly maybe. BH: Yes, it looked like an Oregon grape or holly. However, on the chart then being used by range survey crews the plant had no palatability whatever. A few days after I had killed a mutton and found an Oregon Grape leaf in its stomach, here comes the range survey crew of guys I knew. They came in to have dinner with me. We got to talking about what’s palatable and what isn’t. I think it was Oliver said “Well, they won’t eat this and they won’t eat that,” and so forth. He pointed to the little holly plant and said “They won’t eat that.” I said “I’ll bet you they will.” Then I showed him the leaf taken from the sheep’s stomach. We had a good laugh over this and agreed the sheep made a mistake when it ate the Oregon grape leaf. So we were thinking about what’s palatable and what isn’t in those days. My sheep herding experience served me well after I got into the Forest Service. BM: How so? BH: Well, I learned what livestock could do if not properly taken care of and what the herder had to do to protect both the sheep and the land they were using. I learned that it wasn’t easy to get even utilization of the country. And I learned that herding sheep isn’t a lazy man’s job. With only one herder with the sheep it’s a 24 hour a day responsibility. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  5   �I gathered plants when time permitted and identified and pressed them. I carried a plant book with me most every day and had a plant press in my camp. Through the sheep herding experience I gained a better appreciation of the problems of a stockman. I think that helped me more than anything else. Their [stockman] life isn’t an easy one. Now to go back to Thad’s question of comparing what land looked like in 1935 to what it is today. To attempt to answer this question I’m going back to my sheep herding days in Southern Utah where I did make an eyeball sixty year comparison at the request of the Supervisor of the Dixie National Forest, Hugh Thompson. To quote from my Memoirs which were completed at the end of the year 2000 [A life Recalled: Memoirs of William Daly Hurst by Williams Hurst.] On July 17, (1995) VerMon Barney (my Brother in Law) and I trailered horses to Castle Valley to spend two days riding with Supervisor Hugh Thompson, Ranger Ron Wilson and Range Staff Officer Dale Harris on the Houston Mountain where I herded sheep the summers of 1935 and 1936. Our ride took us to the old Jenson Sawmill on Houston Mountain, a mill that operated in the very early part of the century and perhaps before. After sixty years, I believe there is more grass in the dandelion cover and more fir in the aspen stands. The country looks beautiful, as it did 60 years ago. The ground cover is now probably better. A herd of sheep were grazing in the area during our visit. We located my name on an aspen tree dated 8/1/36. On July 18, 1995 we were joined by Ranger Wilson and Range Conservationist Randy Houston. Our day’s ride took us over Dry Valley and onto Blue Springs Mountain. The complexion of Blue Springs Mountain has changed because of logging roads. I feel certain however there is more fir in the aspen stands. The young firs are less than 60 years old so most of them have come in since I worked there. The country is still beautiful and in good ecological condition. After my two day ride I felt good about the management the area has received. I rode Diamond, my former saddle horse, on both days of the ride. My personal opinion of the area is this: When the area was first grazed with domestic livestock, probably in the 1880s it was used by both sheep and cattle and probably heavily grazed. This resulted in depletion of the original grass stand which was replaced by dandelion. In 1936 dandelion occupied almost 100 percent of the ground. Once over by sheep and the ground was bare. Subsequent lighter use has permitted the grass to slowly return. Very early fires, of which there is now little evidence, could have removed the original forest and replaced it with aspen. That fir is now replacing the aspen there is little doubt. Regardless of what happened in Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  6   �the past, in my eyes, the area is healthy today and still supporting sheep and wildlife plus a charming landscape. In closing this subject on sheep herding days I would like to quote from my Memoirs a paragraph about my faithful companions, the mule Jody and the dog Pal. Jody could be either ridden or packed. I used him mainly to pack, since Luke was much better to ride. Luke was a very good saddle horse. Jody had the patience of Job. One day I had my camp on him and was in the process of moving to a new location. For a reason I no longer remember, I was interrupted in the moving process and had to leave Jody tied to a tree for a couple of hours. On returning, Jody was in approximately the same place under the tree but the pack was under his belly. In fact, the top of the pack was resting on the ground. This didn’t seem to bother Jody at all. He just patiently awaited my return. Many times over the years, I’ve wished some of my mules and horses to, had a disposition more like Jody. The dog Pal was also incredible. He continually amazed me. Besides being wonderful company and providing me with a sense of security both night and day, he would on command, go around a herd of sheep as far as the eye could see. Best of all I felt confident that he had gotten them all. TB: At the danger of messing up Barbara’s tape, I’m going to ask you a question because now most of our students come from cities, have none of this experience. Do you have any ideas of what the modern day natural resources or Forestry College, how can they teach these things to their students? BH: I don’t know. Very few in my day had the experience I had. But it’s an important experience. I believe that the three years I spent with the Hatch Brother’s Ranch paid big dividends in my career with the Forest Service. TB: You mentioned that most, or many of the students at your time, didn’t have that background with livestock, did Summer Camp help fill them in? Or where did they learn? I know a lot of them went on to be distinguished foresters, they must have learned something somewhere. BH: The reason I feel that my experience with ranch and farm activities paid off is because of the positions the Forest Service selected me to fill. From Assistant Ranger through Regional Forester the jobs were heavily range and wildlife management orientated as was my position in the Washington Office of the Forest Service. I’m sure most people in the organization didn’t know of my earlier experiences but some did. And most important of all, my earlier experiences made me feel more comfortable in the jobs I was selected to fill. Many farm and ranch raised forestry students, such as Ed Cliff and Basil Crane, did very well in the Forest Service as did others in land management agencies as well. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  7   �TB: Well, unfortunately none of us can answer that. We’re still arguing that in education now how to teach the practical things to our students. BH: Yes. BM: Well, and also the transference from what happens at field camp into the classroom for that whole academic year. And when you think about that—what did you take from field camp that you bridged into the classroom? BH: Well, we learned how to survey land for example. We learned what fish were eating by catching a fish and examining stomach contents. We learned how to mark timber of different species and how to determine forage utilization by cattle and sheep. We learned how to use portable radios and how to fight forest fires among many other things TB: You mentioned you had on snowshoes when that moose chased you up a tree. Was that an assignment or just you? BH: Oh no. [Tape 1 of 2: B] BM: Bill Hurst [continuing from tape one side A]. BH: Dr. George Kelker’s Wildlife Management class was on a one day field trip in Logan Canyon during the winter. We were between Tony Grove Ranger Station and Tony Grove Lake. The snow was deep and we were all wearing either skis or snowshoes; I was wearing snowshoes. When we reached the area Dr Kelker had chosen for study we broke up into smaller groups each assigned to a different area. My partner was Virgil Peterson. He was wearing skis. In the vicinity of a lake (the name of which I don’t remember), we crossed some huge tracks. TB: Pipeline Lake? BH: Perhaps, but I really don’t remember, But we crossed large tracks. Dr. Kelker said “That looks like a moose to me.” Neither of us had ever seen a moose so we continued on our way. Virgil and I walked into an opening in the aspen and there he stood. [Laughing] That’s when we took the snowshoes and skis off and climbed a tree. In a minute or two the moose left and we went on our way. We saw that moose again the same day on the plowed out Logan Canyon highway near Tony Grove. A week or two earlier Art Smith, Ben Haywood and J. Lowe Sevy, all Wildlife Management students from Utah State, had seen, what we think was the same moose, swimming in Bear Lake, from east to west. . BM: Well, now you mentioned boys in that moose story. Where were the girls? BH: There weren’t any girls. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  8   �BM: No girls in Summer Camp? BH: No, there were no girls in forestry school at that time. The enrollment in the Forestry School was large but I remember no girls. TB: The first women went to Summer Camp in the summer of 1970, but that’s another story. BM: Well, let’s look at some other relationships with Logan Canyon as far as school. You were talking about some field trips and Summer Camp as far as the time period that you stayed up there and you explored around. When you graduated from Utah State, did you leave northern Utah for awhile? BH: Yes. I left Logan for the summer of 1937 and worked until October on the Grantsville Division of the Wasatch National Forest near Grantsville, Utah. After my senior year, 1937-38 at Utah State I returned to this same job in May 1938 and remained connected with the Wasatch National Forest until June 1941. In the summertime, I would be working on the Grantsville Unit. During the winter I worked in various timber jobs on the Kamas and Evanston Ranger Districts of the Wasatch National Forest. During the pre World War II years the Forest Service operated on a very lean budget. A couple of times I was placed on furlough during the winter months. One winter I worked a couple of months at a sawmill before being put back to work with the Forest Service. BM: Where was this? BH: It was down there. BM: In the Ashley? BH No, it was in southern Utah where I was raised. My cousin was a Barber and had major interest in a Ford Motor Company. He also had a small sawmill which wasn’t in operation. Railroad ties were in demand so a group of us put the sawmill in operation and sawed railroad ties. I went with the sawmill for a couple of months acquiring an up graded automobile and a little cash. BM: Well, and different in that you also have those certain time of year where you’re always going to be laid off. BH: No, this just applied to those who didn’t have a permanent appointment with the Forest Service and at the time I didn’t BM: So how did you get to the Logan Ranger District? BH: I worked as an Assistant Ranger and District Ranger after I left school. In the latter job we lived about four years in Manila, Utah. I then served in the Army for two years spending one year in Japan at the end of WWII. After being released from the military the Forest Service assigned me to the Cache National Forest in Logan, Utah as Staff Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  9   �Officer to the Forest Supervisor. At that time the Forest Service was in the process of purchasing Wellsville Mountain and adding it to the National Forest System. That’s the big mountain out west of Logan. BM: And what was going on in Wellsville Mountain that they wanted to incorporate it into the National Forest? BH: Wellsville Mountain is a big beautiful mountain that was outside the National Forest and had been heavily used by livestock, particularly sheep. Accelerated erosion was common in many of the drainages. In the mid 1930s I believe, Congress placed the entire mountain within the National Forest System and authorized the Forest Service to purchase the land from the private land owners. The governor of Utah at the time, [Henry Hooper] Blood appointed a committee to look into the cause of the floods. One of the people he appointed was George D. Clyde, Dean of the School of Engineering at Utah State Agricultural College, who later became Governor of Utah. Another was Reed Bailey, a Geologist and later became Director of the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station. Another was A.R. Croft, a soil scientist I think, from Utah State Agricultural College. He joined the Forest Service and stayed with them until retirement. I think there were two more on the Committee whose names I’ve forgotten. These five men were all very talented people. They studied the mud rock flood problem and wrote several bulletins on the subject. Convincing evidence led the Committee to the conclusion that denuding the high elevations of a watershed and exposing it to torrential rains was the root cause of the problem. Furthermore, overuse by domestic livestock caused the loss of the protective vegetation. When these watersheds were perched above high population centers they posed a real threat to the population and property below. During my stint on the Cache National Forest I carried this program forward under the direction of the Forest Supervisor. A substantial part of my work in the Watershed field was in land appraisal and land acquisition. During my three and one half years on the Cache National Forest I also became well acquainted with Logan Canyon through assignments I had there particularly in range and recreation management. BM: Can I ask before you move on to range, could you talk a little bit about what it was like working on this acquisition and this Wellsville initiative? BH: Yes. BM: Well, you know what’s interesting to me is you are saying that, and you’ve used the word several times, that the public demanded that the federal government come in and do something. BH: They did. They pushed us hard on it. And it’s interesting to note that really the National Forest (now I’m stepping back now in time oh 30 years or more), many of the National Forests in the United States were created not for the timber but for the water they Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  10   �produced. There was damage being done to streams and springs and it wasn’t so much mud rock floods as it was the consequence of excessive animal concentration around and in the water people depended on to sustain their lives. TB: I want to ask a little bit more about this Wellsville Mountain. It’s my understanding that, and it may have been before your time, in the early days the local people actually raised funds to buy land to give to the Forest Service and that the county commission was actually behind the acquisition. Is that true? BH: It is true and not too far back either. I have seen petitions in the Cache National Forest files wherein people petitioned the Forest Service to purchase watershed lands above their communities to protect their water supplies. This was also done at an early date in the history of the Forest Service for watershed land on the Manti National Forest in Central Utah. At a later date petitions from people in Ogden, Utah and other communities and from people around the Wellsville Mountain resulted in efforts that have placed thousands of acres under federal control. The Weber County Watershed Protective Association and the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association were both the results of local people’s action to secure protection of their watersheds. A.G. Nord, former Supervisor of the Cache National Forest was instrumental in achieving federal as well as local support for watershed programs in the intermountain area. To pursue Thad’s question of public involvement in the watershed land acquisition program and the role the public played in this effort, I think it would be worthwhile for Barbara or one of her staff to review the files of the two private organizations deeply involved. One was the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association which once was head-quartered in Brigham City, Utah and the other, the Weber County Watershed Protective Association which had its offices in Ogden, Utah. If pursued, I suggest starting in the Forest Supervisors Office of the combine CacheUinta-Wasatch National Forest in Provo, Utah. Perhaps they can tell you where the files are located. A discussion of land acquisition and watershed management on the Cache National Forest as well as other locations wouldn’t be complete without recognizing the positive role Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson played in this effort. The Secretary was a Republican, a party opposed to the expansion of federal ownership. The Secretary on the other hand supported public ownership on land that was serving a public need. Under his leadership the political aspects of land acquisition were substantially diminished. He also supported the Forest Service in many other ways all of which I thought furthered the cause of conservation. BM: So with you working on the Wellsville issue and you’re, I’m assuming, meeting with the public to understand what’s going on. What other kinds of issues are going on the Cache Forest at the time? BH: We did meet often with the Watershed Associations mentioned above. We also kept in close touch with other watershed activities In addition to the land exchange work on Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  11   �Wellsville Mountain and in the Ogden River watershed, there was an active land exchange effort underway with the Deseret Land and Livestock Company on the southeast side of the Cache National Forest. Much of the land owned by this Company was situated in a checker board fashion over a vast area. The intermingling land was in large part National Forest land. Both parties agreed that it would be in the best interest of all concerned if the scattered land could be consolidated. The land would fare better also. Accomplishing the consolidation would take time both on the part of the rancher and the Forest Service. I’m not sure that it has yet been completed. The Deseret Land and Livestock Company was formally owned by the Mormon Church. I believe it was during the period of which we speak. It is now in private ownership. The Church also owned a Ranch in Skull Valley on the west side of the Stansbury Mountain. While in Church ownership it once was used as a sanctuary for a Leprosy colony. BM: And the objective of getting rid of the checkerboard ownership was what? BH: Was to create conditions more favorable to management both from the standpoint of the private land owner and the Forest Service. It is difficult to manage 640 acres of range land when it is surrounded by land of another ownership. So there were benefits to be gained by both parties that was getting out of Logan Canyon but that was the work I had to do. BM: So you met with the Deseret folks at the time and you looked at different value and trading parcels? BH: Most of my work on this case was independently done. Our District Ranger, Clark Anderson, was active in identifying land that would be most beneficial to acquire as well as land that could be disposed of with least impact on National Forest interests. My two primary contacts were with the Ranch Manager, Dan Freed and their Attorney who had his Office in Salt Lake City, Laurence McKay. I didn’t meet with them too often. I think Thad knew Dan Freed. Thad, Dan and I were active members of the Society for Range Management. The Deseret Land and Livestock Company eventually went private. Except for occasionally meeting with their attorney and Dan Freed, I didn’t spend a lot of time with the Deseret Land and Livestock Company; although all of the acquisition cases would clear my desk before going to the Forest Supervisor for approval. TB: Just when you were making exchanges like that, how much did current condition enter into your thinking? And how much potential? How did you reconcile those two? Say one block of land was, had been really abused and the other was in pretty good shape. And they both had similar potential, how did you [evaluate it]? BH: I don’t think we took current condition into consideration. I didn’t in land I personally appraised. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  12   �TB: That was my impression. BH: Yes. The senses of values were quite interesting. A fellow well along in years, who lived in one of those little communities on the west side of Wellsville Mountain, came to the Supervisor’s office and told us he had a section (640 acres) of land on Wellsville Mountain which he wanted the Forest Service to have. We told him we would like to have it, that we would appraise the property and get back to him. I did the appraisal on this property and it came out to about $10.00 per acre. This was in the late 1940s. After my Supervisor’s approval I went back to the man’s home and gave him the results of our appraisal. He insisted that $10.00 per acre was too much. We finally settled for $l.00 per acre. He really wanted his land to become a part of the National Forests. [Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: This is tape two with Bill Hurst and side one. Ok, we are continuing with tape two and we are talking with William Hurst and we have Thad Box with us. And I posed the question based upon the Wellsville acquisition in terms of the nature of public perception and this idea that the public approaches the Forest Service to want to have their lands either sold to or donated to the Forest Service. And I wonder if you could give us a little more of a context for that in terms of the public views of the Forest Service and that relationship. BH: There are several areas in the Intermountain Region that I’m acquainted with where land was placed in public ownership [chimes] with the support of the local people; in fact in some cases, it was the request of the local people. The Wellsville Mountain is a case in point. However, long before that, back in the early history of the Forest Service, some of the Cache National Forest was placed in public ownership at the request of local people. They weren’t thinking about using it for timber or for recreation or grazing. They were thinking about it from the standpoint of maintaining healthy watersheds. And I think that the watershed issue was the driving force behind the creation of not a majority, but a substantial part of the National Forest system. Even though the public in general supported the movement, both early on and in later years, to expand the National Forests or manage those in existence to enhance water supplies, strong leadership was required. In the case of the Wellsville Mountain this leadership came through the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association with Robert Stewart of Brigham City at its helm supported by a capable Board of Directors from Cache and Box Elder Counties. In Weber County the watershed movement was directed by a citizens group under the name Weber County Watershed Protective Association with Julian Heppler at its head. Both groups had authority to buy and sell land within their area of responsibility and they often did with the Forest Service being the purchaser when money was available. This arrangement made it possible to take advantage of land sale opportunities which might otherwise be lost. During this period of time, the 1940s, the annual appropriation to Cache, Weber and Box Elder Counties was, as I remember, only $120,000. Despite this modest amount the Corporations seemed to find ways through donation to keep an energetic land acquisition program going. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  13   �BM: But the debt that those two corporations then [had] that you are talking about, the debt incurred, could that have gone on until the forest had enough money. BH: Yes, it’s maybe still going on. Yes, they carried over, but it was the Associations that made this possible. The transactions didn’t get into government funds at all. The Corporations would buy the land and then donate or sell it to the Forest Service BM: But the primary concern of these watershed corporations was the protection of the cities from the mud fl, it could be stated that way, or the primary objective of the corporations was to get this land into government ownership, so they could manage it. TB: I think one of the reasons you asked “why did this happen?” There was in a number of communities that had people there that [were] old enough to have seen what it was and how it had been deteriorated and how it was stripped off. And it was really amazing how denuded these lands were. You can look at some of the old pictures there and you can’t find a sprig of grass or anything. And so there were a number of citizens in almost every community along the mountains that became concerned. Bill said that the mountain had come sliding down on them. But I don’t think it was totally the fear, it was that they could just remember it, that the land had been better than that. And so they wanted somebody to take care of it, and they knew that each little individual land owner couldn’t. The Forest Service was a mechanism that could do it. BH: They wanted the Forest Service to manage the land. Now there was opposition to this from certain factions of the public. For instance, some in the livestock industry didn’t like the general idea of public ownership of range land. However, in some cases it was the livestock people who joined with the movement to place critical watershed lands under public jurisdiction TB: Another reason that there was, I think, considerable public support, was that most of the land wasn’t fenced in individual plots, it was open. BH: Yes, it was open. TB: It was open. And so it was essentially a commons that anybody that had livestock could turn them out on that area. So even if you were a land owner and had a 40 acre plot or something up there, you had no way of really using it. BH: Right, no way protecting it. That’s a good point. BM: Thanks for the clarification. BH: Those two Watershed Protective Associations mentioned earlier, may yet be in existence. They did a wonderful job when they were active. Their support went far beyond the communities they served. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  14   �TB: I’m glad you brought this up Barbara because this is a good model that we ought to be looking at in public/private cooperation. Where the private citizens decide they want something done, and then form a cooperation to contact a government agency and then get it done. BH: Yes they did. In my opinion, it would have been difficult if not impossible for the government to acquire the critical watershed land in the Weber River drainage and the Wellsville Mountain without the two Watershed Associations. Their reach was wide and it extended into some deep pockets BM: It was demonstrating effort too from the public. When you think of a huge federal entity like the Forest Service and how it’s growing at that time. For local communities to feel like they have some kind of public input, you know, this is way pre NEPA. So the kinds of input that they could have, and working on that partnership, as a way to either move land through into ownership or move money or especially, importantly, the protective management of that landscape. I mean that must have been a tremendous feeling to have that kind of connection with Washington. TB: What I would like Bill to comment: in those days before the Forest Service wasn’t just something in Washington (we were fighting Washington) they knew Bill Hurst, who was down on Main Street in Logan Utah. They knew that the Forest Service personnel stayed in one place, a good amount of time, they got to know the people and the people know them. They were part of the community. So the local people, when they started forming these corporations, weren’t necessarily working with the big bureaucracy in Washington, they were working with people that they knew. BH: Yes, the people in the two Watershed Associations were well acquainted with Forest Service people and had a good understanding of the Forest Service’s mission. The Associations were holding public meeting semi-annually in communities like Brigham City, Ogden and Logan to keep people informed of their activities and to get feed-back from the public. Of equal importance, the Associations wanted to know what the people were thinking. These meetings were usually well attended too. BM: You know one of the things that I read in your memoir, and I wish you would expound on it a little bit when you talk about this relationship with the public, you mentioned actually going out and riding and spending days out on the forest on horseback, with other staff, but also with the public, some of the land users. I think some of them were sheep herders and there may have been cattle people too. But you talked about that relationship, how important that was, and that was something that was, I think you said established with the nature of the way activities needed to be done in your District Office. Could you talk a little bit more about that and with the Forest Service in Cache [National Forest]? BH: A long time before I started, the Forest Service had on the Forest level, Livestock and Timber Associations whom they would meet with annually or semi-annually to discuss problems or situations of mutual concern. Later, multiple use associations were created Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  15   �on many National Forests. Their purpose, of course, was to facilitate the transfer of information between the Agency and the public and visa-versa. Such organizations are not uncommon today. I think they’re probably more active now than they were back in the period we are talking about. The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960 has probably broadened the scope of discussion. In that regard I’d like to refer to Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson. He was writing a letter to members of a Cattle Association whose grazing permit had been reduced. His reply was very interesting. He explained the mission of the Forest Service and then he went on to say something like this “the National Forests are not timberman’s lands, they are not the recreationalist lands, they are not the water user’s lands, they are not the cattleman’s lands they are public lands belonging to all the people of the United States and must be managed with this fact in mind. The Secretary had it right. TB: Bill, you were Washington staff along about that time. When the Secretary writes a letter today he has dozens of speech writers, drafters and so on. That letter for instance, how did the Forest Service input get into the Secretaries’ letter then? Did you write the letter? BH: No I worked on it. TB: I suspected that. [Laughing] BH: I worked on it but others did also. The statement on “who the land belonged to” came from the Secretary. He didn’t pussy-foot around when stating his opinion. While I worked on a number of letters which he signed the Secretary usually discussed them in the formative stage with the Chief or Deputy Chief who was Ed Cliff. The Secretary was very fond of both men. I did accompany Mr. Benson when he met with some livestock interests in the field and took him on a five day fishing and sightseeing trip into the High Uinta Primitive Area. In my opinion he was a great man and an excellent horseman. As a fisherman he wasn’t so hot. So I put him on a lake where he couldn’t miss. In later years my Grandson would say, “Grandpa taught the Prophet to fish.” In the Mormon Church the Church President is our Prophet. BM: Well, a question I have for you is: do you remember a favorite place in Logan Canyon? BH: Logan Canyon is all special to me. It’s a beautiful canyon. The stream is just unprecedented. I do remember a couple of incidents about Logan Canyon though, that always impressed me. One of them had to do with the stream itself. The Bureau of Public Roads wanted to upgrade a portion of the road through the canyon. That was, I think the time you [Thad Box] were at Utah State and I was in the Ogden Office of the Forest Service. The Bureau of Public Roads hadn’t at that time come around to recognize the value of streams and what might damage them. They wanted to build a road where it was the least expensive and the best alignment from the standpoint of automobile traffic. On the other hand, the Forest Service and the University people, led by Dr. L. A. Stoddart wanted the stream to have first priority. I should also mention Dr. D. I. Rasmussen. He and the entire Forestry School faculty were deeply involved. They wanted the road to go Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  16   �where it would have the least impact on the stream, but still make an acceptable road through the canyon. This developed into a first class battle between the Bureau of Public Roads being on one side and the Forestry School faculty and the Forest Service on the other. Eventually the latter prevailed. The decision was a popular one with the public as well. TB: The publication that came out of that “Road Construction and Resource Use” is the only paper that I know of that every faculty member in the College of Natural Sources signed up on. I mean in the whole history of it. And it started as you say, with L.A. Stoddard and Jess Lowe went up the Canyon to go fishing one day and found a bulldozer parked in the river where they were going to fish. And they came back down and got a hold of Dean Turner and said “We got to do something about this.” And so they got the whole faculty together and we had meetings, and I was just a young guy on the faculty there. But we had a number of meetings and came out with that publication. And like you say, there was a battle there. And it’s still going on. BM: What’s the time period you are talking about? TB: This is about 1960 as I recall that that publication came out. BH: It was somewhere between 1958 and 1962. But I’ll tell you, the Forest Service was sure glad to win this one. It posted a sign that all road construction interests paid attention to. [Tape 2 of 2: B] BM: We are on tape two, side two with Bill Hurst and Thad Box. BH: In reading this you must remember this road issue stretched over two or more years. It didn’t happen while I was on the Cache National Forest. I was in the Regional Office at the time as was Dr Rasmussen. TB: I think there’s a point here that it is important to get, whether we are talking about the Wellsville or Logan Canyon, it’s important if there’s a problem that people see and agree on. And the Forest Service and the University have no problem coming together to study Logan Canyon and the river; if they say that there’s a common problem. And you don’t worry about budgets, you don’t worry about personnel, you just go out and do the job. BH: Yes. That’s right. BM: And the perception of the public at that time too, of these two agents working together. Can you tell a little bit about that? TB: Well, the perception of the public, I was just a young faculty member then and don’t remember. But the public mostly wanted that road constructed. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  17   �BH: Oh, yes. The public definitely wanted the new road. However, I don’t believe they realized the impact it would have on Logan River if constructed to the original design. TB: I think if you’d put it to a vote, the Forest Service and the University would have lost because people wanted to drive faster over to Bear Lake. It was something that was going against public opinion at the time. BH: I agree; there is no question about it. And that’s the case on so many issues that come up when public land is involved. There’s a certain group that’s really pushing and their voice seems overwhelming until you expose the entire picture. Then, if your position is logical, it changes and sometimes radically. I think most everyone now appreciates more than ever the value of Logan River, values that would have been lost had the road been built just to accommodate speedy automobiles. Well, one other point of interest that took place in Logan Canyon more recently was the Range Wars of the 1950s. The Forest Service reduced the amount of grazing by 20 percent on the Logan Canyon Cattle Allotment. At the same time there were reductions being made on other National Forests in the Region. While many people applauded the actions of the Forest Service many did not. The Forest Services actions were appealed in a number of cases in both Utah and Idaho, some of them going to the Secretary of Agriculture for a final decision. The primary issue was the question of what land on the National Forests could be grazed in a way that was compatible with other resources on or adjacent to the land being grazed. The issue boiled down to a determination on each grazing unit (allotment) of the land that could be grazed on a sustained program without damaging other important values. The term “suitable” was selected to describe such land. Other regions in the Forest Service were using the word “useable.” This word was unsatisfactory in our opinion because most land can be used by livestock if other values are ignored. Our definition of “suitable range land” was, “Land which can be grazed on a sustained basis without damage to the area itself or to adjacent areas.” With this definition being applied the issue of suitability became the crux of the grazing problem. It was decided this issue was worthy of a research effort. We welcomed this as did Utah State University and many in the livestock industry. Wayne Cook from the School of Natural Resources at USU was especially supportive as was Weldon Shepherd of the Research Branch of the Forest Service. Logan Canyon was chosen as the location for the research project. Ralph Crowell, Supervisor of the Cache National Forest and Wayne Thorne, Director of Research for USU would provide direction for the research. Wayne Cook from the School of Natural Resources, USU and Weldon Shepherd, Director of Range Research for the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station would design the program and give direction to its application. The Forest Supervisor, Ralph Crowell, appointed Hallie Cox to represent him on his study committee. The Committee and the range management scientists who helped them, put in about two years on the study of rangeland suitability for livestock grazing. When the studies were completed the issue of suitability seemed to evaporate. It is my opinion that people on both sides of the issue were Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  18   �convinced that the cost of capturing the forage in an acceptable way from these difficult to reach or sensitive areas was far greater than the benefits gained. BM: So did suitability then become more of a policy? BH: Yes, in Region 4 [Forest Service ‘regions’] they still use the term “suitability.” But in Region 3 where I later worked, I could never get them to use the term. TB: You couldn’t? BH: No, I couldn’t. The Chief’s Office used the term “useable” rather than “suitable” and it had become so ingrained in their thinking and in their instruction that it is difficult to change. I believe the use of the term “useable” is one of range management’s major problems. A cow goes where she has to go to get her belly full. She has no concern for the damage she might cause in getting there. TB: Well, I learned something. I thought it [suitability] was in common use everywhere. Because I came in right at the end of what Bill is talking about. I got my appointment right at the end of that study. And all the classes I taught, I used suitability. And it’s in their text book and I thought it was the widely used term now. I didn’t know Region three still or Region four. BH: Well, I believe Region 3 still uses the term “useable” while Region 4 uses the term “suitable” which in my opinion is by far the most descriptive of the message the user is trying to convey. I think I understand Thad’s frustration also. He came into an area where “suitable” was the acceptable term and one he was most apt to pick up. TB: So the basic argument was that suitability is a subjective thing. It depends on the three of us here. We would each have a different opinion. Or usability, you could measure. But I don’t buy that. As a policy of directive and I think suitability makes a lot more sense. BH: Yes, “suitability” is much more acceptable in my opinion. BM: Does suitability eventually have criteria? BH: Yes, it has criteria. BM: . . . that soil and water and re-growth and vegetation … BH: Yes. Suitable for grazing means the forage on the land can be harvested by livestock under a level of management the livestock owner can afford, without unacceptable damage to other resource values The ‘adjacent areas’ is critical in the definition because that means the areas that are otherwise suitable for use can not be reached without unacceptable damage to other areas of land. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  19   �TB: To answer your question more specifically, the criteria and standards were developed by individual agencies. So they would differ and I’m finding out that even within them, the agency, and the society for Range Management has tried a time or two to try to get a standard criteria across all the private and public lands, and they haven’t been able to do it. BM: That’s interesting. Alright, we are going to end this tape today. It’s about 2:30 [PM] on Wednesday, finishing the interview with Bill Hurst. To be continued.   Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  20   � https://highway89.org/files/original/2d91a674268b6fda189b31097293174c.mp3 327a305adc5052d9eab210fc2fbee3c5 https://highway89.org/files/original/8dbcab859972dcec96cc98d5ccab4eb4.pdf cefb28e8ef37235dbabff71707d5b4db PDF Text Text LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: William Daly Hurst Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center; SLC, Utah Date of Interview: 16 April 2008 Interviewer: Barbara Middleton Recordist: Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Tape Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams (4/15/09), Barbara Middleton (4/24/09), Bill Hurst, Randy Williams (7 July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where his father was the forest ranger; his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon. Reference:     BH = Bill Hurst BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: We are here on Wednesday, April 16th [2008]. My name is Barbara Middleton; I am one of the interviewers for the Logan Canyon Land Use & Management Oral History Project of Utah State [University]. And we [Thad Box and Barbara] are here visiting with Bill Hurst at the Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center and we are in his room which is just full of Forest Service memorabilia and artifacts and we are here to capture some of his stories from the Logan Ranger District as well as some of the other areas. We’ve got Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  1   �about thirty minutes on this first side and then we will stop and take a lunch break and come back and continue. So you are going to be my timekeeper Bill. Ok? BH: Ok. BM: What I’m going to have you do is introduce yourself with your full name and your birth month and year and tell us where you were born. BH: My name is William Daly Hurst. I was born in Parowan, Utah, Iron County on October the 5th 1915. My father was a forest ranger on the Dixie National Forest at the time I was born. And he was, a year or so later after my birth, he was moved to Panguitch Utah and given a job on the Panguitch Lake Ranger District. He put his entire career on the Dixie and what used to be the Powell National Forest. They are combined today. BM: The Powell National Forest and the Dixie? BH: And the Dixie, but mostly on the Dixie. He worked on the Powell before I was born. And he never moved and he lived in his home in Panguitch. He built the home. And he and mother lived there all of their life. And my dad worked for the Forest Service for about 38-39 years. BM: So you grew up as a child of a forest ranger? BH: Right. And another distinction that I like quite well is my grandfather was a Forest Officer also. He had an interesting beginning. He joined the Forest Service in 1905 and he was an engineer by training. Born and raised in Scotland. In 1905, Gifford Pinchot, the first forester in the United States, and President Theodore Roosevelt were instrumental in establishing the National Forest system. And of course they were looking for people that could survey land and I think that was the primary reason grandfather was selected early on—because he had his early training in engineering, so he could run boundary lines and survey that and map it out. [Stopped tape] BM: Ok, I just stopped the tape for a moment because we want to back up a little bit and we are talking about, Bill’s talking about his grandfather who was born and raised in Scotland. Would you give us his full name? BH: My grandfather’s name was William Radkin Hurst. And my father’s name was William Miller Hurst. And my name is William Daly [Hurst]. And I have a son named William Johansen [Hurst]. The Williams carried down and they’ve always given--the middle name has always been the mother’s [maiden name] of the person being named. BM: So Johansen is your wife’s family name. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  2   �BH: My wife was a Johansen, so our son is named William Johansen. [Chimes in the background.] BM: Now your grandfather, you said, came from Scotland and as an engineer was valuable for with what was needed in the Forest Service. BH: Right. When I say he was an engineer, he had some training in the use of engineering equipment. And he wasn’t a graduate from a college of engineering if they in fact had those in that day. This would be before 1905. BM: Right. BH: But he was skilled enough that he was a Beaver County Engineer. So he was selected; and back in those days I understand that Gifford Pinchot played a role in the selection of that first cadre that came in. So my grandfather was known quite widely as a ‘Pinchot Man’. I think Pinchot actually made a contact with him in those early days of Forester Service. My grandfather . . . we’re really talking about surveying boundaries of the National Forest. You understand, Barbara, I am assuming some of this stuff because he never told me. But I do know that he surveyed a lot of the boundaries of the National Forest when they were first selected. BM: Was it mostly down in the southern Utah area then? BH: Well, it, most of it was in the Southern Utah area. And I think that was a skill that got him involved in the Forest Service. He stayed, my grandfather, stayed with the forest service until 1913, and during that period of time he was a supervisor of the Beaver National Forest, which was headquartered in Beaver [Utah] and that’s where he lived. Later the Fillmore National Forest headquartered in Fillmore, Utah, was added to the Beaver National Forest. He became supervisor of the two forests. Then later on in 1913 they added those two forests to the Face Lake National Forest, which was headquartered in Richfield, Utah. BM: Ok. BH: And they asked grandfather to be supervisor of that forest and move to Richfield. He told them that with 12 children he couldn’t make it on a supervisor’s wage, which was very small. And he said at Beaver “I have a little farm where I keep the boys busy. They raise a lot of our food and get our wood that we used to heat the house and so forth.” So he resigned from the Forest Service and he went back to his job as County Engineer for Beaver County and that was in 1913. BM: Ok. So your dad grew up the child of a Forest Service family also? BH: Yeah he did. And my father William Miller Hurst he joined the Forest Service in 1910, after he passed the rangers examination. He was stationed on the Dixie and Powell Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  3   �National Forests. He worked about 38-39 years in the Forest Service and retired—in I think he retired in 1948 or [19]49. BM: And he was mostly in Southern Utah. You said he was in the area of Parowan, Panguitch? BH: He was District Ranger in Parowan, Utah when I was born. Then about 18 months later he was transferred to Panguitch, Utah. And he lived his career out in Panguitch, Utah. But while he was there he was ranger on three different Ranger Districts; they transferred him around. BM: So your love for forest, the Forest Service, the outdoors, is in your genes. BH: It is. I think that’s right. BM: For many generations. Now with your, with that kind of experience, was there any other choice, did you have any other fields of interest? Because I thought I read something about a medical possibility somewhere along the way. BH: No. BM: No, ok. BH: No, that was never in my plans. However, my oldest son, in fact both my sons started out in the school of natural resources up in Logan. Neither of them stayed though, in that field. The elder son, I think spent 2 or 3 years at school forestry up in Logan. And the younger son has spent 1 or 2 years in that field. And the oldest son went into biology, so that he’d qualify for dental school or medical school. The other son worked for the Forest Service a couple of years while he was going to school of Natural Resources, but he quit that and thought there was a brighter future in Computer Science. So he went into Computer Science and that’s where he makes his living. BM: Probably a good choice. BH: Yeah. He worked for Hewlett-Packard. And he lives here in Salt Lake City. BM: Ok, so you have mentioned two sons. One that’s a dentist in Bend, Oregon another that is at Hewlett-Packard. Are there other children? BH: I have three other children. I have a daughter who is second child in my family of five. And she lives east of here in a town near Heber, Utah, [called] Midway. She’s a graduate of Weber State College [now Weber University] and she put in a career in Education. Most of her career was in the public schools. She became an Assistant Superintendent of the Utah County School District. And then she left that job and went and taught at BYU for three or four years before she retired. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  4   �BM: Ok. And she’s number two. BH: Yeah. BM: So number three? BH: I was going to tell you a little more about number two. She was… BM: What’s her name? BH: Her name’s Kathleen. She married a fellow named Hughes. She was very active in the Mormon Church and she was selected by the president of the Church to be the 1st counselor to the President of the Relief Society—that’s the woman’s organization. And she served a five year stint as 1st counselor to the president of the Relief Society and that really placed her on the General Board they call it, and is a top level administration. You may know more about this than I do? BM: I don’t know that much about it so… BH: It was really quite a special calling for her. And then number four. BM: Oh wait, we missed number three. Who’s the third in line? BH: Oh yeah, number three. Number three is another daughter and her name is Linda. And she married a man named Bryant Nelson. He was a Utah State graduate. And they live in Hewitt, Texas near Waco. Both of them work in retail business. I’m not sure the name of the people they work? Bryant works for a big store complex in Texas, it’s similar to Walgreens (Walgreens would be here). His wife works in a business that supports that group. I think her job is setting up displays in the store around the country. BM: She must be very creative. And then number Four? BH: Four is another daughter and she is another graduate of Utah State. BM: A lot of Aggies here. That’s great. [Bells chime] BH: Yeah, there’s four Aggies. BM: And her name? BH: Her name is Helen. She married a fellow named Tom McKay. She teaches school in Edmond, Oklahoma. Her husband just retired from the Fish and Wildlife Service. He was a biologist. BM: And so number five. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  5   �BH: Number five is a son Carl. BM: BH: That’s Carl? [pointing to a picture] His name is Carl Johansen. And he’s in computer science. BM: That’s the computer person. BH: Yeah and he’s at Hewlett-Packard. BM: Well, from what I’ve read in your memoirs, these names are going to come back through because I think it was your first, now where’s your first son? What was his name, the dentist in Bend [Oregon]? BH: His name is William, William Johansen. BM: I think there’s a horse story somewhere along the way that we want to hear, about one of his horses. BH: Yeah. He’s got all kinds of horses. [Stop tape] BM: Alright, so we have the children, so how about your wife? BH: My wife was living in Grantsville, Utah. Her name was Emma Johansen. But everyone called her Dolly. She went by that name her entire life. I met her when I was working on the Wasatch National Forest out in Tooele County. I spent four, parts of four years, out there and became acquainted with her and married her in 1941. She was with me 41 years before she passed away of liver cancer, which took her fast. BM: So you mentioned the nickname Dolly. Do you know how she got that name? BH: I don’t really know how she got that name except that, you know family stories. She came from a family of, first place her dad was an immigrant from Scotland [thinking, correcting self] Sweden. From Sweden, he was a Swede. And he married, he wound up in northern Utah and how he found her [Dolly’s mother] out in Grantsville I don’t know, but he did and they were married oh about 1905 or] 6 I think. They had seven children and my wife was the last one; she was the 7th. The story they say about her, about the name Dolly, is that her mother was so glad to see this little girl come into the family that she called her “My Dolly.” BM: Oh that’s sweet. So were all the other siblings’ brothers? BH: Oh there was one girl up near the front. One big sister that was about the 2nd one in the family I think and then Dolly wound up being the 7th. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  6   �BM: Five brothers to grow up with. BH: Yeah, five brothers. BM: Ok so what we have here is we have Swedish descendants and we also have Scottish descendants. You said that your, just to finish up this side in the family, your grandfather came over from Scotland. And do you know any geography in how he got to Utah? How did he come in? BH: Yeah I do. He came with his parents, my grandfather Hurst, when he was about 18-19 years old. He came to Utah as a Mormon convert with his mother and dad and two sisters. When they reached the United States the church [Church of Latter Day Saints] of course, met them, I guess at New York, and they sent them to Utah. They sent them here to Salt Lake City; there was a mother and father and the one son and two sisters. BM: How did they travel? BH: When they got to New York I think they traveled by train. Then when they got to Salt Lake City the Church sent them to Beaver County. I say Beaver County because they sent them to a little place that was just under settlement then, Greenville, I think they called it. And my grandfather, he did quite a bit of education and he was picked up right away to teach school. And that’s where he met my grandmother. She also came from parents who immigrated as Mormon converts to the Church. And she in fact, she was one of his students for awhile. They were just two years in age that separated them and they were married and they had a family of 12 children. BM: So a family of 12. And he’s the one that eventually becomes then the engineer. BH: Well, he was the one that could do engineering work. Now I don’t know how much training he had had in it but you know training in those days was a lot different than it is today. And for doctors it is also. But he raised a family of 12 children which is a big family. BM: It is. BH: My mother was raised in Panguitch, Utah. She came from a family of 12 children also. Her name was Katie May Daly; that’s where I get my middle name. She was a school teacher in southern Utah. She got her education in Cedar City, what is now the College of Southern Utah [Southern Utah University], but in those days it was just a two year institution. She met my dad who was a forest ranger in the Parowan/Panguitch area and they were married in 1914. They raised three children which I’ve already described. My mother came from a family of also 12 children. BM: Those are big families in those days. BH: So we had lots of relatives. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  7   �BM: Oh, I’ll bet. We’ll we are almost finished with the end of the tape so let’s stop here and then we will go on to the next section. BH: Ok. [Tape 1 of 2: B] BM: Ok, we are continuing on tape one side two with Bill Hurst. It’s just after a lunch with Fred and some of his other friends and we are going to continue on with Bill’s [story], how he got to USU, the influence of USU in his early training, and also within those college years some of the work that he did in the summertime, which was very important for later on. So Bill, would you tell us a little bit about how you decided to go USU and some of your influences there? BH: I think that I had in my head a long time before I went to college that I was going to Utah State Agricultural College. The reason I say that is that I don’t remember ever thinking about going to either BYU or the University of Utah. Why I didn’t think of that I don’t know, but I didn’t. I always looked forward to going to Utah State. I think one of the reasons I was attracted to Utah State was that quite a few of the young foresters who would show up on the Dixie National, the Powel National Forest, the area’s where I lived, had been graduates of Utah State. And I admired them and the work they were doing. I think I mentioned earlier that I had engineering in mind and I did right up until almost the last moment too. I even took engineering classes that I didn’t need to take, because of the influence [chimes] of the Dean of the School of Engineering, George Clyde. But nonetheless, I wound up in Forestry and majored in Range Management. BM: Now were there some influential people as far as either professors or other folks that [influenced you]? BH: There wasn’t any particular person that got me interested in Utah State or forestry for that matter. Although, looking back my dad and my granddad had an influence on me that I can’t deny. Even though I didn’t look at it that way at the time, but they were both foresters. And they loved the Forest Service and they just had to have an influence on the choice I made. Although I had some very close relatives who had done very well in engineering and they pointed me in that direction also. My dad’s younger brother, Howard, he was an engineer out of the University of Utah, and did very well in life. In the 1930s when I started to college, we were in a big depression in this country. Thousands of men were out of work and jobs were very scarce, particularly in small communities like Panguitch. So there weren’t many opportunities to find a job and so I took a job with Hatch Brother Sheep Company in Panguitch, Utah. The first summer which was 1934, which was the year I graduated out of high school, they used me mainly in their fields and with their haying crops and irrigation and to herd their buck sheep. Their buck sheep were kept away from the female sheep all year long until the fall time when they were turned with the ewes for breeding season. Somebody had to look after Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  8   �the bucks during the summer when they were grazing on local ranges. To make sure they were in at night and not straying. So that was one part of my job, but hay and irrigation comprised a big part of my work. BM: Now let me ask you a question on that because that sounds different than some things that I am familiar with. But you are saying that as part of a sheep range grazing, they are out during the day but then they are brought into an area at night? BH: Yeah, the bucks. That’s the buck sheep. The reason that’s important is that if they get out they might wander off to where there’s a herd of sheep; then get into the ewes’ too early and they have to be pretty exacting on when they do the breeding because that affects when they shear and when the lambs are born and when they do the docking of the lambs and everything else. BM: So it’s very timed? BH: Yeah it’s very timed. In fact it was almost the exact date every year when they turned the bucks with the ewes’ and then the lambs would all come about the same time. BM: What time was that? BH: Well, the lambs would start to come in the last of February the first of March. It was what they call ‘range lambing’ in those days. The lambs weren’t, I mean the ewes’ weren’t put in sheds or barns to have their lambs. They were, they dropped the lambs right out in the open range. They couldn’t have a lot of real severe weather that would freeze the little lambs. So it was a pretty exact science as far as breeding was concerned. And that’s why they had to keep control of the bucks. Nonetheless, I wound up looking after the bucks a part of the year and helping with the hay crops and the irrigation of the alfalfa fields with the Hatch brother’s sheep company. The first summer after one year of college, I went back and they put me out on the range with the herd of sheep. And I spent the month of June what they call lambing the sheep. And that’s when the ewes’ were having their babies. By the first of July the lambing was over and they went through a process of two or three days they’d take the lambs and all the sheep to a corral. They would dock the lambs, which meant cut the tails off of all of them. If they had ear mark, they do marked the lambs. They would castrate the males and put a brand on all the ewes; put a fresh brand on all the ewes. And that took a couple three days. And after that process was over the sheep would go to the summer range. The summer range that I was on for two years was, most of it, was quite a distance from a road. I’d have to take a pack horse along with my bed and groceries and I had a saddle horse to ride. And of course I had a dog; it was a wonderful companion BM: And was that Pal? BH: That’s Pal. I can’t believe how much help he was. I was sleeping in a tent way out alone. Well most of the time, I never worried a minute about him coming in the tent. Pal slept Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  9   �right along the foot of my bed. And if anything happened he’d growl and wake me up. And he did that quite frequently when a coyote came near the sheep. BM: BH: So some of the hazards would be coyote, what else would be worried about? Bear. We were worried about bear. However, I never had a bear get in my sheep. But I did worry about it because that occasionally happened and usually a bear would inflict big time damage on the lambs. They seemed to kill them just for the fun of killing them you know. BM: Ok, not necessarily eating them BH: No they weren’t eating them. The coyotes would just have a little bit. But usually a coyote would eat it, eat the lamb or drag it off some place. I thought of a story. One night in the middle of the night my dog had waken me with a deep growl and I picked up the lamp and put my clothes on and he kept walking outside a little ways and then he would come back in the tent. The hair on his back was standing up and he had this deep growl which I seldom heard him make. I thought for sure a bear was out there in the sheep; although the sheep weren’t moving. You can tell when they move because the bells will tinkle. The bells that were on the sheep—[the ones] that had bells on them. And they weren’t tinkling which indicated that the sheep weren’t moving. But old Pal continued to bark and walk ahead of me a little bit and then come back. And that hair was still standing up on his neck which indicated something pretty bad. BM: Were you nervous? BH: I was quite nervous. I took my 30-30 rifle. And I walked down the trail. We were a long ways from the road. I went down the trail and this dog would walk ahead of me a little ways and then come back and then walk ahead, come back, all with that deep growl. Finally, about a mile from camp, I heard a faint call say “Bill. Bill.” and then I knew someone was trying to find me. But I knew it wasn’t a bear. [laughing] I was relieved in that respect, but I was more concerned because what in the world would somebody be looking for me at 2 o’clock in the morning? And I thought “my folks.” I thought something’s happened to my dad or mother or my sister. And they’re trying to find me. What in the world would they be out here in this time of night if it wasn’t something serious. And so that made everything else like bears, coyotes, seem trifle. So I kept walking down the trail and the voice came louder and louder and finally we met. And it was a friend of mine from Utah State University that had a summer job with the forest up at that country. He had been out marking timber. He left early in the morning from Panguitch Lake and went out to mark timber. He broke down, his car broke down on the way home and he knew that I was in the vicinity. His name was Bill Thompson. Finally, I ran into him and he told me his story. Well we moseyed back up to the tent and both of us crawled in the bed and went to sleep. And got up the next morning and had breakfast after the sheep were settled. Then I took him, I had a mule and a horse there and we saddled both [chimes] of those animals up and went back to the highway Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  10   �where his car was. And it still wouldn’t run. So we waited until a car came through and he got a ride to Panguitch Lake. And I went back to the sheep herd. BM: Now, I want to go back to a part of that story because you made a comment about the sheep having bells. But only certain ones had bells. Who do you decide to put the bell on? BH: Ya know, I don’t know. I never put bells on any sheep myself. They were already on the sheep when I took over, so I can’t tell you that. But I do know that bells were very important for two reasons. One is the dingling would tell you where the sheep were. And then if, I think they had a bell on about a 1 in every 50 sheep. And there were 1200 sheep, so you would have 24 bells. And in addition to that they kept so many black sheep in the herd. And the black sheep were kept in the herd to facilitate counting them. It would be difficult you know, for anyone to count 1200 sheep plus the lambs and there’d be more than 1200 lambs because a ewe usually has two lambs. So there would be 1200 plus. But these belled sheep and the black sheep are what are known as counters. So when the herder brings the sheep in to bed them at night, he’ll count. He’ll count the blacks and he’ll count the bells if he can do it. Sometimes you can’t count the bells because they might be in lie down so you don’t hear a tinkle. But you have the bells that you count sometimes. But you always count the blacks. If you have say 24 blacks in the herd and you count 24 blacks you can be reasonably certain you got your herd. If you are missing one, you better go look, hunt. You know you got a job the next day, trying to find the other black. BM: So it’s kind of like sampling. BH: Yeah it is; it’s the same thing. And so that’s the reason they have blacks and bells. And of course the bells tell you where the sheep are too. They are valuable in that respect. BM: Interesting. So these were, this was the Hatch Company was your summer job. Was this each summer that you went home from college? BH: I’d go right to the sheep when I got home, maybe stayed home for overnight or something like that. They were anxious for me to come because they were in the middle of lambing and they needed the [help], you know if I was going to work for them all summer they needed the help right now. BM: But you were put out with the herd and you were responsible once the lambing was done and some of the other things that you talked about with castrating and some of the other jobs. Then you were put out with the herd in a meadow? BH: Oh no, not the meadow. It was just mountains just like these mountains. BM: So tell us about the landscape you covered. BH: The what? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  11   �BM: The landscape that you were in. BH: Well, it was a mountainous landscape, there was lots of aspen, lots of pine trees, quite a lot of spruce and fir and there was some quite large and deep canyons. Mammoth Creek went right through the area. It was well isolated. The Hatch brothers had three herds and one herd was on the south of me, one herd was one the north of me. The herd on the north of me was headquartered in what they called Castle Valley and that had a road running through it. And the sheep foreman had a sheep wagon there and he’d bring his wife and his little girls up to stay with him during the summer time. And he would move that camp. It was a big valley, a big, great huge valley, that had plenty of area that were the sheep could graze all summer long. So he’d be there and take care of the sheep. But he’d be home every night. And once a week at least he’d ride over to the camp I was in, and the camp that my partner was in, the same man both years, was in the other camp. And he’d ride over to make sure we had salt; we had to salt the sheep at least every two days. BM: And why is that? BH: Well, they just needed salt. A lactating female will die if she doesn’t have salt. BM: So it was just a common nutrient that they need. BH: Yeah, well, that’s an ingredient of milk you know. And milk cow you have to have salt before her all the time because, as I said, if they don’t have salt they die. So he had to make sure we had salt every couple of days and he’d come over at least once a week and sometimes more often and bring us salt. And he’d bring us groceries. And on each trip that he’d make to our camp he’d say “what do you need now for the next week in the way of groceries” and you’d always have an inventory ready for him. BM: So what kind of things did you order? BH: Well, they were quite limited. They didn’t include candy bars or anything like that. We made sour dough bread. That was made out flour and baking soda and put a little sugar in it. And this fermented flour and sugar thing and you know what sour dough is? BM: Yes, I love it. BH: Yeah I love it too. That was a basic thing and we always had bacon. And they tried to keep us in eggs. And we had, we ate lots of beans and we ate lots of rice. Rice and raisins was a favorite dish. BM: A hot dish? BH: Well, it could be either cold or hot. You’d cook the rice and put some raisins in it and they’d swell up. You know. It made really a good dish, I still love it. Put a little salt in it and usually it was cold. Then you’d put some canned milk on it and we’d always have Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  12   �canned milk. Oh it was good food; I loved it. I still love it, cheaper food. And occasionally we’d kill a mutton. They had a few, oh a mutton and they were males that had been castrated and they’d let them live over a year so they were a year old or better. When we would kill a mutton the camp herder would usually split it three ways: he’d take part of it and give the other herder part of it and me part of it so we could eat it before it spoiled. BM: Because I was going to say you would have to store that some way. BH: Well that was kind of a unique thing too; we used to put it in a seamless sack in the day time and rolled it up in the bed. Then at night we’d hang it up. Have a rope on it that was up over the limb of a tree if there was a tree around, and hang it up above the fly line and flies don’t go way high. We’d drag it up and let it hang out all night. And the nights were at that elevation, 8,000 to 9,000 feet, would be quite cool. Then bring it down in the day time and put it in a seamless sack and wrap it up in the bed again. So it would go in the bed quite cold and stay pretty cool all day. We had good mutton to eat. And I don’t know, my mother used to send me up cookies once in a while when somebody was coming in my direction. BM: What kind of cookies? BH: Oh she was great on the sugar cookies. And I don’t know if she ever made chocolate chip or not. I don’t remember. But I’d like that. And dad would bring some apples once in a while. We ate pretty good at the sheep camp. One of the owners—it was three brothers that owned these sheep. And one of the owners had a son named Delosh, and once in a while his dad would bring him up and let him stay over four or five days with me. He was quite a lot younger than I, but he’d come up and have a good time. Incidentally, he called me here not a week or two ago, but a month or so ago. He was up here with his sister. And we thrashed over the old sheep herder days. BM: What fun to catch up like that! BH: Yeah, he lives in Canada. Well, that’s about the way the sheep herding went. I had that job for two summers. In the 3rd summer I started working for the Forest Service. [Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: This is tape two side one, April 16th [2008] and we are here with Bill Hurst continuing our interview and we are talking about sheep herding as a summer job in college. Bill, you mentioned two years with sheep herding and then in the summer of [19]36 is your forestry camp? BH: I had herded sheep that summer [1936] and the summer camp, the first summer camp that Utah State University forestry school held was in 1936, the fall of 1936. It was about a 6 to 8 weeks camp; I’ve forgotten the exact length. It started about the first of September. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  13   �BM: So I had to leave the herd, sheep herding job, a little early that year to get up to Logan and go to summer camp. Then, immediately after summer camp of course, school started. So I entered my junior year of college. Would you tell us a little bit about summer camp since some of us don’t have the experience of that. BH: Well, it was really quite an enjoyable time as far as I was concerned. I think there were 35 to 40 young men there. They had a wonderful cook, a man and wife team and their name was Cooley: Mr. and Mrs. Cooley. He was an excellent cook and so was she. And she was a motherly type lady; she was appreciated by all the boys you know. They liked to visit with her and tell her their troubles and their experiences as well. It was a very helpful camp also because we were out in the field and we were doing things that we’d probably have to do if we went to work for the Forest Service; like survey pieces of land and put out forest fires. Radios were just being adopted that were two way, two-way radios. We learned how to operate the two-way radio and we learned how to mark timber. BM: So was that timber cruising? BH: Well ‘cruising’ is where you estimate the volume of the timber. We did that also yeah. Then we learned which trees out of the stand you would mark in different species of timber. Where we had access to different species of timber, we’d actually go out and select the tree that we thought should be cut and mark it somewhere. We didn’t do any cutting or anything like that. We just learned which trees out of a stand should be cut, depending on their new crown and how large they were and how thick they were, and cut them so that you’d release the smaller trees and get the old trees out that weren’t putting on any further fiber. So in many respects it started preparing us for the work that we could expect to do in the years ahead, if we were in forestry. We also learned how to estimate utilization on grasses and forbs and learn which of those plants cattle and sheep would prefer. Just a general review of Forest Service activities, out on the range, in the forest. BM: Can we go back to when you say estimate utilization of the range. Explain that to a nonrange person when you say that. BH: here are several ways they do that. One is, and the most accurate job anyway but one that takes time, is to have a cage out at strategic locations, and they called these key areas. That’s key areas where the livestock generally go to graze. Have cages out there that prevent the livestock from eating that grass, [like exclosures to keep animals out of a particular area]. These might be 3 feet in diameter, sometimes they have permanent fenced areas that are about a rod square: 16½ feet square. A lot of those are put in permanently so they are never utilized. But they use a lot of cages out that are just annually put down. And then the animals will eat around them. The most accurate way is to take a pair of scales out and clip the residue on the outside down to what you think is proper level and weigh. Then clip the similar area inside the cage and weigh that. And compare the two and you get a percentage utilization that way. If you do this enough you can make fairly accurate estimates of utilization just by walking through the country. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  14   �When I was ranger I did very little clipping, I’d just go out and look at a piece of country and could tell almost as well by estimating how much was gone. Because I knew that the heavy stuff would be on the bottom and the lighter stuff would be on the top. And if they take it down within two inches you know they haven’t gotten half of it yet. And so you do a lot of estimating. But that’s the way they determine plant utilization. A lot of people say “well that couldn’t be very accurate” but I disagree, it is quite accurate. Livestock people and the forest ranger, whoever’s doing work for the Forest Service, they get pretty good at estimating the percent of forage that’s gone from an area. Each vegetative type usually has a maximum and a minimum standard. So if they get down to the minimum standard you know they’re taking too much. And the maximum maybe they’re not taking as much as they could. That’s the way she’s done. BM: Now this is the college of forestry at the time? BH: Yes. BM: And you were at forestry summer camp, so is there also an area [of study] that is helping you look at watershed or wildlife or some of the other aspects that I think of today that are part of the college. Where was that kind of thinking? BH: We took classes in that. The only difference, well by the time we got to the period we are talking about we had a division, I mean a School of Wildlife Management and a School of Range Management as well as a School of Forestry. Now they got a school of Recreation and other things and Watershed Management and so forth. But when I started school in 1934-35, we just had the School of Forestry. It was headed over by the head of the School of Forestry by the name T.G. Taylor, doctor. We had Paul Dunn, he taught the forestry classes. And Dr. [can’t remember his name] oh dear, anyway we had a fellow that taught range management and he also taught dendrology, like the study of trees. And he taught some classes in—[remembers name of professor] Raymond Becraft. He was the other professor. Those three fellows pretty well handled the School of Forestry which existed in those days. Sometimes they’d get graduate students to come in and help, like teach some of the classes. You’d go to the botany building to learn about plants, identify plants and all that stuff. And you’d go to soils building, where they specialized in soils to learn about—to take your soils classes. So it was a pretty well rounded out program, even before they divided the School of Forestry into these three divisions. When we got Dr. Rasmussen for wildlife, he created a Wildlife School that was just one of the best in the country. And Dr. Stoddard: Ely Stoddard, he set up the school of Range Management which also was widely recognized as being an excellent school. That’s the one that I chose to graduate in. Since then of course they’ve expanded that and they have this School of Watershed Management now. And they have some others. BM: The wild lands, which range and forestry are incorporated into that, and wildlife is in that also. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  15   �BH: Yeah. That’s kind of like it used to be when I first joined, they were teaching them all and they were all meshed in together. BM: Well when you talk about that several times in your book, you talk about the importance of understanding the inner relationships. BH: Yeah, you have to do that. BM: Some of it was from a predator-prey standpoint. And some of the others were just the watershed standpoint with grazing, grazing management and watershed systems. BH: The watershed condition is the key to good management. If you don’t have control over your watershed you don’t have good management on the land. So they give a lot more attention to watersheds now than they used to. Although watershed has been important, you know that’s what you’re talking about when we talk about all these flash floods that came off these mountains. That was just watershed management. BM: And that was a strong part of what was going on in the landscapes around you that you’re seeing as a student. BH: Yeah. All those big floods, and I say all of them, not all of them by any means, were taking place during that period of time. Some of them were taking place during that period of time. And they were terrific floods and, of course, they don’t happen as often anymore as they used to happen. And that’s really because they have better watersheds. BM: So some of the places that were infected were like Ephraim and where else? BH: Well, there were a lot of them up on the Wasatch Front, between Ogden—well let me see. It was that country—it was north of Salt Lake City and between there and Weber Canyon. BM: Layton area? BH: No, but maybe Bountiful and through there. There were a lot of those floods taking place down around Manti and through that country where the Great Basin forestry range and experiment station, through there. BM: And that would be Ephraim right at the bottom of that canyon. Now at that time also with the camp experience, how many students are we talking about being enrolled? What was the class size like at summer camp? [chimes] BH: Oh at summer camp? Well, I think I mentioned that earlier and I’ll probably contradict it now. But, I don’t remember the number I gave you before but, I think it we had around 40 students up there the first year. BM: So you’re camping in the old CCC buildings that are there. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  16   �BH: Right. BM: And you are using quite a large area of Logan Canyon, of the upper Logan Canyon, are you using primarily right around the camp? BH: Primarily right around the camp; although we took excursions out from the camp, different places. The University owns a big section of land up there. A lot of it was taking place that was right behind the old CCC camp where we were staying. We’d hike up and over the top of that hill and do a lot of our training work up right within, well, inside of the camp. BM: Is that now called the Ted Daniels Forest? BH: Yeah I think it is. BM: Alright. BH: Yeah that’s it. BM: Were you at the University when Ted was there? BH: No. He came after. I used to have fun with Ted. He was ours for many years you know. He was a really permanent fixture at the University. He was recognized and honored quite a few times. I’d kid him once in a while and say “Yeah I remember when you came.” BM: When he was a young guy. BH: Yeah. So I remember when he came, and I can too. Yeah I was graduated before he came. BM: And he made that one hill famous. What did he call it? Benchmark Hill? BH: Yeah, that’s Benchmark Hill. You’re right. Well, the hill’s named after him now isn’t it? Ted Daniels Forest Hill. Yeah he’s quite a guy. He did a lot for the school of forestry too. BM: Bill, you’ve been talking about your USU experience and summer sheep herding and your forestry camp experience. We are going to finish up for today, so would you summarize for us the importance, the experience, some of the ways that USU prepared you for your first job in entering into a profession in forestry and range? BH: I started to work for the Forest Service in the summer of 1937. That of course was before I graduated. I worked until the latter part of September that year and then I returned to the Utah State University to graduate in the spring of 1938. I went back into in June of 1938, I went back into the same job that I’d left the previous fall. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  17   �BM: And what job was that? BH: That was called administrative guard on the Grantsville division of the Wasatch National Forest. It’s out west of Salt Lake City towards Wendover. I was on Stansbury Mountain, which was an isolated mountain standing out in the desert, but it runs from lake level which is about 4200 feet to 10,000 some odd feet in the air above timberline. It’s a magnificent long mountain; it has all of the life zones clear from, oh south desert, desert shrub to tundra, above timberline. So it was a wonderful place to work. There was no timber to cut on the forest, there was timber, but they didn’t cut any of it except few poles and things like that. But it was a big range management job and the country was alive with deer. So I gained a lot of experience in range management and wildlife management while I was on that district. After I returned in 1938 they assigned the Vernal Division of the Uinta National Forest to me and it later became a Ranger District. A few years after I left, they consolidated this Vernal Division and this Grantsville Division, which I’d been on. They consolidated those together and made a ranger district out at Tooele, Utah. Since that time, it’s been a part of the Wasatch National Forest. Now I understand they’re going to put all three of those forests together. BM: Right. The Cache, Wasatch, Uinta. BH: Yeah. So I enjoyed another three years on those units. I should say however that there were periods when I would be laid off. During the next three years there were periods that they’d just run out of money to pay someone. And when that did happen they would put me over on the main part of the Wasatch National Forest out east of Salt Lake up around Kamas and Evanston and Granddaddy Lakes and [I would] work mainly in timber. Selling lots of timber crops in those days: that’s mining crops. Then there were huge insect control job projects going on. I worked on those and became superintendant of a 200 men crew up in insect control one year. In fact, I had that job when I got my permanent employment with the Forest Service. BM: What kind of insect control were you doing? BH: It was the mountain pine beetle. It was in lodgepole pine well, mainly lodgepole pine. There were tremendous attacks and killed a lot of lodgepole pines. But they’re still going on you know? Colorado’s complaining all the time now about insects taking all their trees. I’ve about reached a conclusion that that isn’t too bad. We can’t use it; the forest has to turn over and that’s the way that nature has for turning them over. BM: Uh huh. BH: The only trouble, and the thing that bothers lots of people, is they’re burning up a valuable resource that you can make gasoline out of now. And then big fires get into Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  18   �them, into this dead timber, and sweeps out of the dead timber and into live timber, you notice those downsides to it, too. But on the other hand, the forest is turning over. We just never have been able to use all that timber, no matter how much or how badly we’d like to see it utilized. You got to have a place to use it. And then, I’m jumping ahead quite a few years now, but when I was supervisor of the Ashley National Forest we sold the largest crop timber sale that was ever made in the United States. We were so proud of that. We thought, boy this is really going to make an inroad into all this old rich lodgepole pine. You know those trees that don’t grow too big in diameter but they grow up straight and you can cut a lot of crops out of them. Well, we just got that timber sold at a good price—not only the largest sell but it brought the biggest amount of money. They got to bidding for us and they went way high, the timber operators did. Within ten months they had invented what they call the screw bolt process, I mean a plate screw process. Where they take a big old square piece of heavy iron and they’d run a couple of holes through that then they’d put that up in the top of the mining shaft and screw bolts through these holes and up into the crevices of the coal. Then [they] take huge wenches, they had down there, and tighten them up and put that plate right up solid against the coal mine, the top of the coal mine. That protects it as well as those mining props were doing and a lot cheaper. The bottom fell out of the [timber] crop sales. People who had bid these big high prices, we had to make some adjustments and do it fast. And cancel a sale under, you know you’re not supposed to do that really, but we were forced to do it. Like when I say we were forced, what could a poor guy do? He can’t sell his crops. BM: It lost it’s economic value. BH: Yeah, well, yeah it lost it’s economic value. Well, that only compounded the problem that we had and have an overabundance of this over mature stuff. So what are you going to do with it? [End of first interview] Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  19   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Daly Hurst interviews, 16 April 2008 & 11 February 2009, and transcriptions Description An account of the resource In Bill Hurst's first interview, he discusses his experiences with the Forest Service: (father and grandfather both worked for the U.S. Forest Service in Utah), including Hurst's service in the Logan Ranger District and the Cache National Forest in Logan Canyon. Then in the second interview he shares his experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where his father was the forest ranger his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hurst, William Daly, 1915- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Box, Thadis W. Subject The topic of the resource Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Interviews Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Family Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Career in Forestry Logan Ranger District (Utah) United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees United States. Forest Service Hurst, William Radkin Hurst, William Miller Forest rangers--Utah--Biography Mormon converts--Utah--Biography Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews Sheepherding--Utah Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes Forests and forestry--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Forests and forestry--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Utah State Agricultural College. School of Forestry Watershed management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Range management--Utah Forest reserves--Utah Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Becraft, Raymond J. Benchmark Hill (Logan Canyon, Utah) Grazing--Utah Watershed restoration--Utah--Citizen particiapation Deseret Land and Livestock Company (Utah) Public lands--Utah Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association Forests and forestry--Multiple use--Utah--Citizen participation Benson, Ezra Taft Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Public opinion Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Grazing--Research--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah State University. School of Natural Resources--Research Forest ecology--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Iron County (Utah) Beaver County (Utah) Dixie National Forest (Utah) Panguitch (Utah) Utah United States Salt Lake City (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 4 & 5 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd5WilliamDalyHurst Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 6 April 2008 11 February 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-06 2009-02-11 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d6289430216f8a2ca03f52929a02db5b.jpg df7f2fe70c67665f3a0201b79f138abf Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/135">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/135</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho, looking toward the East Description An account of the resource View of Bear Lake, looking toward the East. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Israelsen, Orson Winso, 1887-1968 Subject The topic of the resource Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs, 1900-1960, P0358 1:15:14 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03680">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03680</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs, 1900-1960, P0358 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0358 1:15:14 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1930s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/238851ed4552ba90b978209440bd6208.pdf dd6b2b7a7c204654ab81735005c4cdde PDF Text Text ( The Forest Service PositionOp The Logan Canyon Highway The Forest Service is deeply concerned with the protection of the tmportant resources and uses in Logan Canyon. Logan Canyon i~ well recognized as one of the choice recreation attractions in the Intermountain West. It is widely known and many people enjoy the fishing, cgmping, picnicking, and scenic -beauty of this colorful area. Many years ago Logan Canyon was accepted as a highway route between Logan and Garden City--a di~tance of some 40 miles. The original route through the canyon was built prior to establishment · of the national forest. Recognition of the need for a better highway led to Forest Service approval of plans for the State to construct the highway that now exists between the two points. t~e pr~ry Much of road system throughout the national forests represents stmilarly , successful cooperative efforts between the Forest Servic·e and State and local agencies. Present and projected traffic indicates the need for reconstructing the road to higher standards. Trends in traffic, however, are paralleled by trends in use and enjoyment of the canyon's recreational assets. New highway construction in this ltmited area poses serious conflict with the stregm, streamside vegetation, and recreational values. In 1959 approval to reconstruct the 4.2-mile section above Logan was granted by the Forest Service with the realization that tpere would be same on other public values in the canyon. high-speed highway. ma~or impacts The section now completed is a very fine, However, the impact on the resource values has been great. even though a yearlong permanent stream was not involved for same distance in this section. Wide clearing for the right-of-way has eliminated much vegetation that contributed to scenic values and to sdil ;s tabilization along the river. The river �channel is practically a canal in same places, and fish habitat value has deteriorated. The new highway, on the other hand, affords the traveler a better view of the canyon walls. The State Department of Highways' request for a per.mit to build the second 4.2-mile section of the new highway is of great concern to many interested people and to the Forest Service because particularly serio~s ~pacts are involved. Accordingly, Forest Service Administrators met last March out on-the-ground with - - repres.entatives of the State Department of .Highways, the State Fish and Game Department and the Bureau of Public Roads. During this field review specific measures to avoid the impact on the stream and streamside vegetation in a number of places were discussed. Again in June, . the groups represented at the March meeting and a representative of Utah State University met in Logan. was discussed and then reviewed in the field. lessen some of the ~pacts The redesign of the proposed highway The redesign included measures to at an additional cost of about $100,000. included shifting a l200-foot section of the roadway to save trees These measures an~ otper vegetation in front of Guinavah Forest Camp; installing two culverts and a high .. water bypass; and reducing streambank changes on channel encroachments throughout the project by approximately 4560 feet. The redesign, however, did not include the additional measures discussed in the March field meeting which we believe are reasonable considering ·the long-ter.m public benefits involved. These measures would cost an additional $126,925 and would el~inate several severe adverse effects on the stream channel and bordering vegetation. The Forest Service has made clear that the measures in question do not provide for complete protection of the stream channel and recreation values in the critical 4.2-mile section of the highway under consideration. -2- A review of the situation �shows that the Forest Service has accepted many ~pacts on other values in the i nt erest of constructing a good highway at reasonable cost. the loss of ~portant streamside vegetation for same 8,400 feet due to channel encroachment and channel changes. There are two major channel changes that i nvolve the construction of same 900 feet of new channel. we have accepted. There will still be These are among the ~pacts which A general engineering review of the cost 'of fully protecting the 8,400 feet of streamside vegetation and avoiding the .ne:ed for the 900 feet of new channel could, conservatively, raise the estimated construction cost by an additional $325,000. That portion of the highway route upstream from the 4.2-miles under cons i derat i on to approximately' Ricks Spring will also be difficult to coordinate with other resources and uses. This portion will likewise be expensive to copstruct. The route fram Ricks Spring to Garden City is in terrain that lends itself to easier location, less conflict with resource values and lower construction costs. The present proposed new const.r uction and that portion on to Ricks Spring is the most difficult part of the route to coordinate. To do an acceptable job of coordi nation in the best public interest will necessitate higher costs. The additional cost of $126,925 for the 4.2-mile section presently under consideration does not seem excessive when considered as a portion of the 40-mile route from Logan to Garden City. The expenditure of these additional funds will help in preserving the i nherent natural and near-natural aquatic environment of Logan River. The Forest Service feels that the expenditure of these monies will min ~i z e adverse effects upon existing favorable fish pabitat by avoiding 1,210 feet of channel . Encroachments pool structure, damage to on the stream in these areas would result in loss of na~ural streambeds, and elilnination of desirabl e -3- �streamside vegetation. In another location a 10-foot setback would save valuable streambank vegetation and el~inate an additional 385 feet of channel encroachment. The vegetation which exists along this total of 1,595 feet of streambank provides much needed overstory stream cover and shade; it provides terrestrial insects and other organisms to the water for trout food; it also provides streambank stabilization, and roots and branches that extend into the stream provide protective cover and resting areas. A recent fish habitat survey of this very popular and heavily-used fishing stream by Forest Service technicians shows there are a numb~r of good pools and numerous smaller pools formed by boulders, rock outcroppings, and streambank vegetation within the proposed road construction areas. Any encroachment on the stream channel, removal of streamside vegetation or increased gradient resulting in higher water velocity will cause shifts in streambed materials and adversely affect the natural channel and the desirable pools that are now presento Dr. C. J. D. Brown, a nationally recognized ~uthority on trout streams, made a very detailed study of Logan River in 1935 while a biologist with the Uo So Bureau of Fisheries. He reported that, "Probably the most undesirab le physical condition existihgin the main Logan River from the point of view of fisheries is the almost complete absence of good pools. The Logan River has but · one or two good pools per mile, while the Blacksmiths Fork stream has 40 to 500 As already mentioned, the absence is a natural result of a steep gradient flow of high velocity." are generally good. a~d a Dr. Brown also said, "Shade and cover in the Logan River In many of the sections, it is very dense and affords an excellent hideout for fish. Those plants along the banks and the brushfalls in the water should be carefully guarded." We believe ' this' appraisal reflects present day conditions. -4- �( Dr. Brown's report emphasizes the suitability of the water of Logan River for several species of trout, the abundance of deficiency in good natural pools. a~ilable natural food, but a definite The need, therefore, to protect as many as possible of the pools that are present, both large and small, is essential to - maintaining suitable conditions for trout whether they are produced in the stream itself or are hatchery reared. In addition to the prevention of dwmage to the stream habitat for its fisheries value, there is much public interest in preserving the natural setting and aesthetics of this beautiful stream and canyon. To do this will require all feasible measures to maintain to the extent possible the natural stream channel with its pools and riffles and native stream-bordering vegetation. The concern of the Forest Service on this matter is shared by others. recent report by a qtah State University group ~oncerning The the need to program and finance resource protection in highway construction projects is an example. That this will add to per mile construction costs is undeniable. We believe the costs entailed to accomplish this are both reasonable and justifiable. Our decisions in matters of this kind must be based on the concept of multiple use and sustained yield. The authority for this goes back to the Organic Act of June 4, 1897, and to the Multiple Use and Sustained Yield legislation enacted June 12, 1960. The latter, Public Law 86-517, directs that tangible as well as intangible values must be weighed and considered in management of national forest lands. It is mandatory that Forest Service administrators coordinate uses on these lands, exercising their best judgment in authorizing any single use so that coordination is effected to the fullest practicable extent in the best interest of all the American people. -5- �National forest administrators share everyone's interest in the construction of a good highway at reasonable cost. At the same t~e, the Forest Service is charged with a major responsibility for coordinating highway construct.i on on' national forest lands with other ~portant values. A highway in Logan Canyon designed with obvious consideration for the locality's outstanding roadside and stream values will be an endUring source of satisfaction. FLOYD IVERSON Regional Forester Ogden, Utah -. November 22, 1961 -6- � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1741">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1741</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Checksum 1087038698 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 3963769 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Forest Service Position on the Logan Canyon Highway Description An account of the resource Six page essay regarding the Forest Service Position on the Logan Canyon Highway. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Iverson, Floyd Subject The topic of the resource Traffic engineering Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Essays Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Ogden (Utah) Weber County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1960-1969 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 14717Bx8Fd20_Item 43.pdf https://highway89.org/files/original/6ce507029c5d7f8245640e032d555159.pdf fe19697ab8da4b567523cfc4a859cad3 PDF Text Text I I UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRIC U LTURE FOREST SERVICE I NTERMOUNTAIN REGION ADDRESS REPLY TO REGIONAL FORESTER FOREST SERVICE BUILDI N G AND REFER TO OGDEN , UTAH December 4, 1961 J . Whitney Floyd, Dean College of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management Utah state University Logan, Utah _Dear Dean Floyd: I appreciated receiving your open letter of November 25 addressed to the principals responsible for the collection of data, the establishment of position, and the related decisions for the .Logan Canyon Highway construction project. That letter should be helpful in clarifying the understanding of the concerned agencies about the position of the College of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management of Utah state University . We in the Forest Service have at no time interpreted the statement of the College committee as being relat ed to or influencing our decision in the administration of national forest lands in Logan Canyon. You properly point out that this would be outside the prerogative of the University. However, the basic principles set forth in the University statement establish sound land management objectives; objectives which the Forest Service has sought-in Logan Canyon and elsewhere for many years . We understand the sincerity of your efforts to encourage agreement among the agencies concerned so that the project can move forward . This is our interest. However, the question at issue involves determination and definition of what you have referred to as "a satisfactory design, adequate financing, with minimum damage to the natural resources affected." Use of cost as a measure of needed work is convenient . The basic road construction cost for this highway, without consideration of resource values, is $ 360,000 . The total additional cost for essentially full resource protection without consideration of economic factors is 552 , 000. The State Highway Department has agreed to resource protection work amounting to about $100,000 over and above the basic cost . Our studies indicate that additional work, estimated to cost a further $127,000, is needed to meet "minimum damage" requirements . �This is the situation that has been described as an "impasse . " We hope this is not the case . However , I must fully discharge my responsibility for administration of the national forests in the Intermountain Region . I cannot , in the absence of facts to the contrar.y , agree to a proposal set at a level below that which meets the "minimum II resource protection need . We look forward to further discussions with State Highway Department officials , especially with regard to the total project and the costs involved from the end of the present constraction t o Garden City . Sincerely yours , ~VERS~ Regional Forester cc: Gov. Geo D. Clyde W Jay Garrett , Cache Chamber of Commerce . Pres . Dar.yl Chase , Utah State University Mr. C. Taylor Burton , Director , Utah State Dept . of Highways Mr. Harold S. Crane, Director , Utah State Dept . of Fish and Game Mr. Grant E. Meyer , Division Engineer, Bureau of Public Roads � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1743">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1743</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Checksum 199481223 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 1132328 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Floyd Iverson to J. Whitney Floyd, December 4, 1961 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Floyd Iverson to J. Whitney Floyd, December 4, 1961 in response to the related decisions for Logan Canyon Highway construction project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Iverson, Floyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Floyd, J. Whitney Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah) Traffic engineering Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Utah United States Ogden (Utah) Weber County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1960-1969 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 14717Bx8Fd20_Item 41.pdf https://highway89.org/files/original/5209d400ae550b6aa7f572d05ee8ade7.jpg ee6851579b0d82a59021023cb27e92fe Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 2743 Image Width Image Width in pixels 3928 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 1200 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum F77C213E01EB7822C726AE2862DC48B6 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 5790520 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Epson Expression 10000XL scanner, display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2010-07-22 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63364">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63364</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Burning trees along highway 89--Schultz Fire, June 22, 2010] Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jarvis, Allen Subject The topic of the resource Forest fires--Arizona--Coconino County; Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Born digital Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. United States Highway 89; Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019; 21st century Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Schultz Fire Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_133784.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/e40da532016f580d4c5ffcabd73269eb.jpg 9d0b5de9c924e219a05d56492db8b7e7 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 3965 Image Width Image Width in pixels 2718 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 1200 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum DFE23B8E8FF13F87104A25719447342C File Size Size of the file in bytes. 5786824 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Epson Expression 10000XL scanner, display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2010-07-22 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63365">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63365</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Schultz Fire. View from Highway 89 looking south, June 22, 2010] Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jarvis, Allen Subject The topic of the resource Forest fires--Arizona--Coconino County; Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Born digital Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. United States Highway 89; Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019; 21st century Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Schultz Fire Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_133785.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/f3ab121988190cbf4051da32c120d45e.pdf 2d01467c67fe5c188fcd2a5a579210b1 PDF Text Text WA)J\TCH FRONT R€GIONAl COUNCil SUITE 100,420 WEST 1500 SOUTH, BOUNTIFUL, UTAH 84010 PHONE OGDEN 773-5559 • PHONE SALT LAKE 292-4469 D. MICHAEL STEWART, Chairman WILBUR R. JEFFERIES, Executive Director D. Michael Stewart Chairman Commissioner Salt Lake County Harold J. Tippetts Vice-Chairman Commissioner Davis County March 28, 1989 Bart Barker Commissioner Salt Lake County James W. Davis Mayor, South Salt Lake Palmer DePaulis Mayor, Salt Lake City A. Bruce Dursteler Mayor, North Ogden L. Clifford Goff Mayor, Ogden Kelly H. Gubler Commissioner Tooele County Carol L. Hardy Commissioner Morgan County Charles Hoffman Mayor, Draper Robert A. Hunter Commissioner Weber County William H. Levitt The Honorable James V. Hansen United States Congressman 2421 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510 Dear Congressman Hansen: The Wasatch Front Regional Council has been working for the past several years with the Utah Department of Transportation and local governments in Davis, Weber, and Morgan Counties to develop plans for improving US-89 from Burke Lane in Farmington to Harrison Boulevard in Ogden. In August 1988, a consultant was hired to study the corridor and recommend needed improvements. The objective of this study was to provide for safe and efficient travel in the corridor through the year 2010. The recommendation of the study is to develop US-89 as a limited access expressway with interchanges. A copy of the Executive Summary describing the results of this study is enclosed. I hope you will find this report helpful. If you have any questions or need further information, please contact us. Mayor, Alta Sincerely, Richard McKenzie Mayor, Layton tVv02~ J. Steven Newton Mayor, Sandy Wilbur R. Jefferies Executive Director D. W. "Jake" Simmons Mayor, North Salt Lake Lew A. Wangsgard Mayor, South Ogden WRJ/DH/pmb Enc. �EXECUTIVE SUMMARY us 89 CORRIDOR STUDY DAVIS AND WEBER COUNTIES SUBMITTED TO: Wasatch Front Regional Council SUBMITTED BY: Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade & Douglas, Inc. Midvale, Utah March 1989 �- �BACKGROUND The US 89 Corridor Study was a comprehensive analysis of the existing and future travel demands along US 89. Its major purpose was to identify and evaluate options for short-, intermediate-, and long-term safety and operational improvements along the corridor. The study included an inventory of the existing conditions; identification and analysis of the operational deficiencies of the existing facility; the projection of future travel demand through the year 2010 based on population and land use forecasts; the development and analysis of alternative conceptual improvement plans; a recommended improvement plan and the implementation phasing of its elements; preliminary cost estimates; and possible funding and implementation options. The US 89 Corridor Study Final Report documents the entire study process and the detailed study findings. This Executive Summary provides a brief overview of the study and the recommendations. THE STUDY AREA The subject portion of US 89 is located in the north-central part of Utah and functions as a transportation link between Salt Lake City, Ogden, Hill Air Force Base (HAFB), and the surrounding communities. It serves local, commuter, and interstate traffic and is the designated route between Interstates 15 and 84~ The study area is shown in Figure 1. It is bounded on the north by 4800 South Street in Ogden, on the south by 925 South Street in Farmington, on the east by the Morgan County line, and on the west by Interstate 15. THE STUDY PROCESS The study was administered by the lVasatch Front Regional Council (WFRC) as part of its transportation planning process. A Technical Steering Committee was esta!:llished to provide input and guidance for the study. The committee included -1- �~ NORTH I I -.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.~ ,-~~--+---------,-- MP 347.12 SECTION 5 · ,-_::::::~~+~---~f- MP 344.99 SECTION 4 1.9 MILES I --------1-- MP 343.04 Mati. . . . .. SECTION 3 2.8 MILES , ----:=--__--, - - - - - - - - - f - - MP 340. 23 SECTION 2 2.4 MILES ~___ t . . - - - - - - - - - t - MP 337.81 SECtiON 2.9 MILES _._.- STUDY AREA BOUNDARY ~~"","~ _ _ _ _ _. L . - _ FIGURE 1 STUDY AREA MP 334.87 - _._._._._._._._._._ .. US 89 Corridor Analysis: in Davis & Weber Counties -2- �. . representatives from the cities of Farmington, Fruit Heights, Kaysville, Layton, South '\1eber~ and Clearfield; Davis~ Weber~ and Morgan Counties; and the Utah Department of Transportation: The Utah Transit Authority and the Wasatch Front Regional Council also participated in meetings of the Steering Committee: One of the principal elements of this study was a thorough public involvement process which included the following major components: 1. Regular meetings with the Technical Steering Committee. 2. Interviews with elected officials from all involved jurisdictions~ 3. Presentations throughout the study process to elected officials of each of the cities within the study area~ 4. The formation of two citizen planning committees which met monthly to review and comment on the development of the alternatives and the refinement of the recommended improvements~ 5. Public meetings in September 1988 (Kaysville and South Weber) and in January 1989 (Layton): EXISTING CONDITIONS US 89 serves communities in North Davis County and the southeast quadrant of Weber County~ According to the 1986 population and land use data provided by the Wasatch Front Regional Council (WFRC)~ the population of the study area was 85,539 people. The existing land use and zoning in the corridor is a combination of residential, agricultural, and limited commercial~ In addition, some industrial land exists in the vicinity of the Weber River~ Hill Air Force Base~ which contributes 55 percent of the total employment in the area, is located immediately west of the corridor~ The segment of US 89 between Burke Lane and Harrison Boulevard is 12~62 miles in length~ It has four lanes~ two in each direction~ shoulders which are typically wide~ -3- �and a median of varying width and treatment~ The .roadway is functionally classified as a principal arterial~ Currently~ 125 streets and private drives open onto US 89~ No pedestrian provisions exist for crossing US 89 except at Harrison Boulevard. The average daily traffic (ADT) volume on US 89 in 1988 was approximtely 23,000 vehicles per day. Approximately 93 percent of these vehicles are passenger cars, vans, or pick:"'up trucks~ Less than five percent of the total vehicles are heavy trucks. Accident data for 1984 through 1987 were provided by UDOT. The total average accident rate for this period was 2~27 accidents per million vehicle miles of travel~ which was less than the expected rate of 2~93~ The fatal accident rate is 0~03~ however~ This is four times greater than the expected 0~0075 fatal accidents per millio.n vehicle miles. Thirty-five percent of all accidents occurred at intersections~ Poor light conditions were a factor in 33 percent of all accidents~ Excessive speed by one or more vehicles contributed to 22 percent of the accidents~ Trucks were involved in four percent of all accidents~ '~ild and domestic animals factored in 16 percent of the accidents. The existing operational characteristics of the roadway were evaluated to identify those intersections where improvements are necessary~ The results of this analysis show that the "thru" lanes of traffic on US 89 operate at a good level of service with little to no connict~ However, traffic entering the mainline from the cross streets typically experiences excessive delays~ especially during the peak hour~ Left turns from the mainline onto the cross streets also experience significant delay~ These intersections were also evaluated to determine if further analysis for traffic . signals or interchanges was warranted. . Shepard Lane, Farmington Junction at -- ~ . Cherry Hill, 200' North Street, Oakhills Drive, Cherry Lane, Sunset Drive, Hill Field Road (SR 193)~ and South Weber Drive all warrant additional study at this time~ -4- �FUTURE CONDmONS Future population, land use, and traffic volumes will dictate the type of improvements needed in the future~ The master plans for the cities along the corridor indicate that the study area will continue to be primarily residential~ with limited commercial development occurring to serve the growing population~ Figure 2 shows the growth projected for the study area population and the US 89 traffic volumes between 1988 and 2010~ 180 Jl,..--'" 170 160 150 ;; 140 / en 0 V 2 0 <{ CI 130 ~ z en :J 0 l: 120 ... ~ 110 0 :I: .... ~ - en 50 w / ~ Z 100 0 ti ..J :J 90 Q. 0 Q. :::> .J g 40 u G: 30 u.. <t 80 Q: .... / V ~ / ~ V/ / / I------ ~ V"" V 0 1988 1995 2000 2005 POPULATION TRAFFIC VOLUME FIGURE 2 POPULATION TRAFFIC AND VOLUME GROWTH -5- 2010 �Traffic forecasts for the study area were developed by WFRC in conjunction with the Transportation Planning Division of UDOT~ UDOT and WFRC developed projections for the years 1995~ 2000~ and 2010~ Projections of daily and peak hour turning movements were made for 13 major intersections along US 89 and at the 184/US 89 interchange~ An analysis of the 1995, 2000, and 2010 traffic on the existing roadway system showed that the operational performance, which is already below the acceptable level~ cannot be significantly improved throughout the design period with additional turning lanes or other changes constructed at the in tersections. These intersections were also evaluated to determine when and if further study for traffic signal control or an interchange should be conducted by UDOT~ (The choice q of a signal over an interchange is related to the preferred ; uaHty of service and the functional design of the roadway~) Of the 14 locations ev~luated, it was estimated that all but one would require additional analysis within the design period~ The analysis of the existing roadway show.ed that improvements for safety and traffic management are needed for the entire length of the US 89 corridor: The results of the analysis and the traffic projections were used to develop and analyze improvement alternatives. ALTERNATIVES ANALYSIS Three alternative designs plus a "No Action" alternative and a Transportation System Management (TSM) alternative were developed for the corridor~ The designs were chosen to best represent possible approaches for improving safety while maintaining an appropriate operational performance throughout the 20-year study period~ The transportation system designs considered are described below: 1. A "No Action" Altemative for which neither operational nor safety improvements are considered for implementation~ 2. A Transportation System Management (TSM) Altemative which would attempt to address the transportation problems without major financial investment~ -6- �3. A Full Freeway Design Alternative with access to US 89 only at interchanges located no closer than one mile. Grade-separated crossings were assumed at major east/west collectors~ 4. A Limited Access Expressway Design Alternative with Interchanges Grade-separated crossings were located no closer than one mile. assumed at east/west collectors~ Right-in/right-out access to US 89 was permitted at selected locations. No left turns or cross movements were permitted at any location. 5. A Limited Access Expressway Design Alternative with Signalized Intersections at locations meeting signal warrants. Right-in/right-out access to US 89 was also permitted at selected locations~ No left turns or cross movements in tersections. were permitted except at the signalized Both the "No Action" and the TSM alternatives would be unable to provide an adequate level of service on US 89 in the future~ Therefore, these were eliminated from further evaluation~ A traffic analysis was performed to determine the expected level of service (LOS) at the .major intersections and along the arterial itself~ The methodology of the Transportation Research Board, 1985 Highway Capacity Manual, Special Report 209, was used for this analysis~ The minimum LOS for the analysis was "D"~ Existing and projected 1995, 2000, an 2010 traffic volumes were considered and analyzed~ The results of the analysis are summarized in Table 1~ -7- �TABLE 11 EXPECTED AVERAGE LEVEL OF SERVICE Altemative Existing 1995 2000 2010 Freeway Design A A B C Limited Access Design with Interchanges A A A A Limited Access Design with Signalized In tersections A C D E INOTE: Level of Service ~s a method typically used to evaluate the traffic conditions at intersections, merge areas of roadways, and the mainline of the roadway. LOS A is optimal while LOS F is essentially nonfunctional. The analysis of the freeway design was performed for existing traffic volumes and for projected 1995~ 2000~ and 2010 volumes~ The results show that the expected average level of service on US 89 would be "C" in 2010~ To provide this level of service three to four freeway lanes in ~ach direction would be necessary, and the majority of ramps would require two lanes~ In addition~ three to four lanes in each direction would be necessary for the access stre~ts~ The limited access expressway design varies from the freeway design by permitting right-in/right-out access to US 89 at selected cross streets~ The effect of this is to reduce the total traffic volumes at the interchanges and on the arterial and collector streets accessing the interchanges~ The expected level of service for this design would be "A" through the year 2010~ To accommodate the traffic volumes three "thru" lanes in each direction on US 89 and two to three lanes on the cross streets will be necessary~ Standard acceleration/deceleration lanes were assumed at the right-in/right-out locations~ -8- �The signalized corridor alternative was analyzed to determine both the expected level of service and average speed on US 89~ This analysis shows that for the 2010 projected volum es the average LOS at the signalized intersections of the corridor will be "E", and the average speed on US 89 in 2010 will be 32 miles per hour~ To maintain this LOS and speed it would be necessary to provide a minimum of three through lanes in each direction of US 89, plus two left turn lanes, and one right turn lane at each intersection. On the cross streets one to two through lanes in each direction, plus one left turn lane, and one right turn lane or shared right/through lane would be necessary at each intersection. The optimum design for the year 2010 is the limited access expressway with interchanges and grade-separated crossings. This design has less impact on the adjacent street network than does the freeway design. This design provides a higher level of service and safety while permitting a higher speed than does the signalized arterial alternative. DESCRIPTION OF THE PROPOSED ACTION The proposed US 89 corridor improvements were developed to improve safety and to maintain a level of service appropriate for a principal arterial~ The elements of this design include interchanges; grade-separated crossings; controlled access points with adequate acceleration/deceleration lanes; construction of an additional travel lane in each direction; separation of the north and south travel lanes; standardization of the median treatment along the entire length of the roadway; construction of truck climbing lanes; development of a two-way frontage road system on both sides of US 89; improvements to the roadway lighting and signing; and amenities for pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses. Construction of these improvements will require several years to complete~ Interim mitigation may be used to forestall the construction of the improvements; however, the need for certain elements is imminent and will be necessary with or without the use of interim mitigation~ Figure 3 shows the conceptual design of the improvements recommended for the US 89 corridor~ -9- �~ NORTH c::J KEY ~ INTERCHANGE @ GRADE SEPARATION I> RIGHT-IN/RIGHT-OUT FRONTAGE ROADS FIGURE 3 PROPOSED IMPROVEMENTS FOR US 89 CORRIDOR US 89 Corridor Analysis: in 'Davis & Weber Counties -10- �Currently, the large number of access points on US 89 is not only hazardous, but also reduces, significantly, the quality of service on US 89 and its intersections: Implementation of a limited access expressway design would necessitate closure of all access to US 89 except at 12 designated points. At these locations traffic control measures would serve to ensure safety and an appropriate level of service~ The interchanges and right-in/right-out locations would be the only access points to US 89. All other streets and driveways would be closed with access to those properties provided from the frontage road system. The level of use and compatibility with the existing and planned street network was used to determine which access points would be closed and which would be improved for increased use~ No commercial access to US 89 would be permitted. The improvement elements were prioritized into short-, intermediate-, and longterm construction phases as shown in Table 2~ These phases reflect the need for the improvement as determined by the analysis of traffic and accident data~ Existing and proposed land use was also considered in developing the plan. ENVIRONMENTAL ASSP.SSMENT An environmental assessment of the study corridor was performed to determine what, if any, environmental consequences would result from the proposed improvements. On the basis of this .initial assessment, it was determined that the appropriate environmental document for the proposed project is an Environmental Impact Statement. The major environmental factors requiring further analysis include wildlife, wetlands, fault hazards, slope stability, soils, prime agricultural lands, right-of-way acquisition/displacement, hydrology/floodplain, noise, air quality, and archaeological/historical resources~ Any of the analyzed improvement alternatives would require this level of additional study~ -11- �TABLE 2 PIlBUIOIfAIlY CONSTIlOcnON PHASING PLAN lnW1udiate Interchange Construction 1.1t-I"S HiU Field Road Farmington Junction Interchange Completion LoIIC 1'''-2000 Short Improv.m.t 2001-201' Uintah Junction South Weber Drive 200 North Street Oakhilia Drive Antelope Drive Rftinbow Drive Grade-Separated Crossings · Nicholls Road 200 North Street Oakhills Drive Antelope Drive 6600 South Street Crestwood nrive AcceleraUon/Deceleration Lanes- Green Road 6550 South Street Combe Road Old Mountain Road Cherry Lane 6200 South Street South Weber Drive Sunset Drive leays Creek Drive Valley View Drive 8075 South Street Deer Run Drive Corn III Drive Shepllrd Lane NIcholl. ROlld Carle Drive Oakmont Drive 200 North Street Crestwood Drive Mutton lIollow Drive Oak hills Drive Antelope Drive 6600 South Street Crestwood Drive Truck Climbing Lane Southbound. Deer Run Road-HIU Field Rd. Northbound. Combe ROlld - 8200 South Additional Travel Lane 1-84 - Antelope Drive 1-15 - Old Mountain Road Oakhllili Drive - Antelope Dr. Oakhllls Drive Old MOllntdin Rd. Median Improvement Farmington Interchange Uarrlson Blvd. Channelized IntersecUon • Shepard Lane Old Mountain Road Nicholls Road Green Road Carle Road Oakmont Lane 200 North Street Mutton lIollow Cherry Lane Kays Creek Drive 8075 South Street . Deer Run Drive South Weber Drive 6550 South Drive Chllnncllzed "T" Intersection Crestwood Drive Oakhills Drive Sunllet Drive VaUey View Drive 1-84 Combe Road Frontage Road Burke Lane - 200 North Ulntah Junction - Combe Road 200 North Street South Weber Drive South Weber 6600 South Street Lighting JIIU Interchange Farmington Interchange Nicholls Drive 200 North Street Oakhilll Drive Ulntah Junction South Weber Drive Pedestrian Amenities Shepard Lane Cherry 11111 Deer Run Drive Farmington Interchange Nlcholla Road 200 North Street Oakhllll Drive At any locations where algnala may be InstaUed. Paths to school bus stops. South Weber Drive Antelope Drive 6600 South Crestwood Drive Pathli to Park-andRide Lots Bus Amenities School bus sarety Improvements Park-and-Rlde Lots atl 11Illlntercbange Farmington Intrchg. Oakhilia Intrchg. -12- �COST Preliminary construction costs were developed for the recommended conceptual design. The costs were developed to show only an order of magnitude for the improvement costs. These costs are summarized for each of the construction phases in Table 3. TABLE 3 SUMMARY OF ESTIMATED PROJECT COSTS Base Contingency Total Phase Cost f} 20% Cost 1 $28,051,204 $ 5,610,241 $33,661,445 2 33,735,800 6,747,160 40,482,960 3 8,142,440 1,628,488 9,770,928 $69,929,444 $13~985,889 $83,915~333 TOTAL The preliminary cost estimates for the recommended improvements were also developed for segments of the mainline roadway and the frontage road proposed within the corridor. These costs are summarized by segment in Table 4. All costs are presented in 1989 dollar values. Land acquisition costs were not included in these estimates. However, minimal land acquisition will be required for US 89 mainline improvements~ fluctuate Real estate values widely throughout the corridor and will change with any future development. These values will impact the cost of land acquisition for the recommended frontage roads. -13- �TABLE. 'REUtmfARY COST EST1!1ATES BY SEcnott Ranape 2-Lane Additional 1 Lane Mainline Seetion Unit $: (riD) Lanes (rID) $l5.75/SF $l73/LF $ 5,462,100 $15.75/'SF $ 598,500 1-Lane (Structur.) 2-...... (Structure) $76/SF (EDtInc) Bride· SU/SF $76/SF 3,161,600 -0- -0- 5,191,400 -0- -0- 3,906,400 1,091,250 1,051,200 1,696,320 667 ,500 S 2,865,600 $ 19,887,680 $ ',612,250 Seetion 2 1,439,360 2,"9.1,800 478,800 -0- -0- Seetlon 3 2,440,165 4,116,900 2,004,915 -0- Seetlon 4 1,665,990 2,551,500 1, 19~ ,000 -0- Seetion 5 1,126,230 3,345,300 119,100 1,404,480 S 9,092,880 $ 18,030,600 S 4,398,9':'5 $ 3,100,800 -0$ $ 2,112,500 577,601f 5~':' ,600 • 1,114,400 $ 211,803 IfIfWJ Barrier COIDb Median RaiMd $39.50/LF 1,014,750 I $ ..... $~5.'SF -0- $ 2,421,135 Median AeeUntlDeeelentl_ Boaell $ 3,596,250 Seetion 1 TOTAL: PtGatlp 5,924,960 I ..... ~ $ 1,696,:!20 $76/SF . .nap De_oUtia. Lanes ..rm Totlll $10/LF $30/LF S39.50/LF $39.50/LF ($) $85,000 S 312,300 -0- $205,400 $22 ,9~1, 761 $ -0- 261,600 -0- 193,550 9,104,460 -0- 434,400 -0- 306,U6 16,167,891 -0- 297,900 181 , 305 -0- 10 , 891,345 248,850 -0- 304,050 130,350 -0- 10,093 , 980 591,0i'1 $85,000 $1,670,250 $311,655 $705,075 S69,929,4U -0U4,425 -0- $ �POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS In order to implement an expressway type design for US 89, certain policy issues need to be implemented uniformly throughout all political jurisdictions along the corridor~ While UDOT has final control over the location and installation of access points, each county and city should have a uniform policy to deal with future development~ This will allow equal treatment of developers throughout the corridor~ As development occurs along the corridor, additional areas will require access to the highway. The frontage road system can control this need for additional access. It is recom mended that developers be required to design their development plans to include both frontage roads and their access onto them. The elimination of access points is necessary for the improvement of safety along the corridor~ New access points directly onto US 89 should be discouraged~ Future requests for access onto US 89 should be subject to specific guidelines prior to approval. Any new access point should be considered temporary and subject to closure at such time as deemed necessary by UDOT. Each public agency along the corridor has in place ordinances covering new development. A legal review of those ordinances by each agency is recommended to determine if modifications are necessary prior to the incorporation of guidelines for frontage roads and access points into those ordinances~ FUNDING Several funding sources would be available to fund the improvements recom mended for the US 89 Corridor~ Projects on US 89 would be eligible to receive Federal Aid Primary or state construction funds~ UDOT and the State Transportation Commission are responsible for programming these funds~ One approach for funding the project would be to implement the improvements in the three construction phases~ A bond of $20-25 million could then be issued for construction of the short- term projects. Since each phase of the study is generally a stand-alone phase, this process could then be repeated for subsequent phases~ Under this methodology, funds for construction of the project would not be sought until needed~ ,,:,,15- �The construction of the proposed frontage roads will need to be a joint effort between UDOT and the local jurisdictions~ build the frontage roads where possible. -16- Developers should be required to ��� Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1702">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1702</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 3891742696 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 14877578 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Executive summary of US 89 corridor study, Davis and Weber Counties Description An account of the resource Results of the executive summary of US 89 corridor study of Davis and Weber Counties explaining the need for an expressway and funding. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jefferies, Wilbur R. Subject The topic of the resource United States Highway 89 Roads Improvement--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Administrative records Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-03 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah) Davis County (Utah) Ogden (Utah) Weber County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Papers of Congressman James V. Hansen, 1970-2003, COLL MSS 351 Series I Box 85 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv82138">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv82138</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS351SerIBx85_Item_9.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/460fb638e9fdf3a44146f6b31a4f8180.pdf 831bad8b4e2ae3396e94f544b2df7bc8 PDF Text Text 10 River Court Parkway, N. W. Atianta, .Georgia 30328 ���/ j)~ 4 ~ --juL(U Lffru Ai ~~ ~~ ' -~ G~) 1(,1 ~ ~~ ~""' ./~) ~ . t 30 ~~/en.k)5 ~f~( l1.. qLj/l/ ~ i(S--- S-S~- >S77~ . rPr / lf~M~~u4pw~ v] ~ ~ . J)~~;6~ ~1 ~J~;6~. (CLW 9:~~~ I ~/j)~.~ . I � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/116">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/116</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 3176498326 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 2138866 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Jo Jones, December 6, 1979 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Jo Jones to Brian addressing his concerns and giving him the names and locations of people to contact to ensure than an EIS is produced Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jones, Jo Subject The topic of the resource Government agencies Sierra Club. Utah Chapter Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-12-06 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 28 Folder 12 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB28_Fd12_Page_2.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/e043b6437fe21a9b953f92381903b6ef.mp3 b402d958140ac2ac17780e155c737cd4 https://highway89.org/files/original/b26ba0bf286f3df603e1dbd3ada0d5d0.pdf 191f30876a7d6afb212f7828b447a85e PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Jim Kennedy Place of Interview: Date of Interview: Quinney Library, College of Natural Resources, USU May 4, 2009 & May 5, 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Radio Shack, CTR-122 Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Barbara Middleton 25August 2009; Randy Williams, 12 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JK = Jim Kennedy NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Tape four was never turned into the USU Special Collections for deposit or transcription. At the end of the transcript is Professor Kennedy’s 2005 CV. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 3: A] BM: This is Barbara Middleton, and we are here on the USU campus with Jim Kennedy on Monday, April 4th. It’s about 2:00 in the afternoon, and we’re in the Quinney Natural Resources Library, recording for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project. So, welcome Jim. JK: Thank you. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  1   �BM: Why don’t you go ahead and start off with your – JK: Do you just want me to follow the script? Pretty much, until I get down to my – yeah, let’s just do that. BM: Why don’t you start with your full name and then a biographical sketch? JK: I’m James Joseph Kennedy, III. I was born in Philadelphia in 1940; it was about four weeks after Hitler invaded the Benelux Countries. My first memories are of the city. I was a first child with my grandparents. And the only person that wasn’t involved in the war effort was my grandmother, who pretty much raised me. My grandfather worked in the steel mills and was a Labor Union organizer (which is deep in my DNA, in my social values and the way I look at the world). My father was in charge of building altimeters, eventually for B29s and RCA. My mother was the executive secretary for a firm that suddenly became hugely important in developing fire extinguishing foam systems for aircraft carriers. I remember when the war ended. I remember the black shades on the windows. I remember the sense of, you know, everyone working hard to do something to defeat evil. The first Christmas present I can remember asking for at age three – excuse me, age four – was a wagon, so I could go collect tin and paper and recycle stuff to help defeat evil. But after the war was over we moved up to central Pennsylvania. My favorite place in Philadelphia were always the parks, even when they put gun emplacements up on Fernhill Park, next to Midvale Steel in Philadelphia (you know, in case of supposed bombing or attack or anything on that important industry that proved a large portion of the metal for the Philadelphia naval yards). I always spent time in the park, even when they tried to keep people out of that. I bartered with the guards to let me go in at certain times in that restricted territory, just to be out where it was green, and trees and birds, and even garter snakes in that part of Philadelphia. My favorite place to go was to go to the zoo. I always loved the wild lands. And so after the war when my father had to change jobs and move up to central Pennsylvania, we moved on to a farm. We rented the farm and the family (a huge family, with probably an average of maybe 7th grade education, with about their nine children) rented the land, 300 acres of the farm that we were living on, renting the house on. They had a smaller, less prosperous adjacent farm, and that wild land and those fields, and also the open-heartedness of these (and in no disrespect say “simple”) people. Probably one of the persons that had one of the greatest impacts on my life is still alive at probably 95; one of the young men there, never married. He took to us kids and we followed him, he started paying us a pittance to work for him. I learned never to whine, you know, never to complain; never to blame anyone. It just didn’t benefit you. I learned a work ethic. I learned that’s how you got respect from adults, by doing what you’re told without whining and doing it well. But also being able to have a sense of humor and irony and fun at what you were doing. And a person that probably didn’t graduate from junior high taught me that as much as anybody. And also, just how to live off the land – which they did legally and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  2   �illegally with great skill; had been doing so for generations. I don’t think any of those people, other than maybe a brother that was strapped into the war had ever been more than 50 miles from where they were born. It was a very rural, rural area. Someone once described Pennsylvania as Philadelphia to the east, Pittsburgh to the west, and Appalachia in between; and I was raised in Appalachia. BM: What was the town? JK: It was called Montgomery, Pennsylvania. Then we moved a few miles to less of a middle town (though all those towns were middle towns, and would now be called “rust bucket” areas). Then we moved into town, bought a house. That was the first house my parents owned, and that would have been 15 years of marriage (I just turned 12), and we moved to that little town. We had been going over there to the Catholic Church, so I knew some Catholic kids there. Our graduation class was only 49, of which three of us got PhDs, and about a third of us went to college (which is really astounding when I think of it). But when I moved, it was very much a small town. Everybody knew you almost to a fault, and especially even a smaller subset of our community of 2500 people within a church and a school. But it was a good place to grow up. I was, again, much closer to the floodplain and the tributaries of the Susquehanna River – which was just like, you know, Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer’s playground and growing up an adventure place for me. I spent a lot of time in the forest and woods. I always liked getting up early in the morning, even if there weren’t cows to milk, or traps to check. But I was always involved in trapping, hunting, fishing and getting up early in the morning. I was an ADHD kid, so I was hyperactive, easily bored, short attention span, hated being cooped up inside of buildings (whether it was for church, for family reunions or for school). And by getting out early in the morning and releasing some energy and feeding my spirit and having some control over my life independently of the adult world, I was ready to face the adult world at 8:45 when the school bell rang. And I found it was wonderful therapy for me. So I always went to the woods, and went to the fields and the streams. BM: You mentioned trapping. Would you tell us a little bit about that? JK: Well it’s as brutal of a relationship as you can have with nature, maybe with the exception of bull fighting. And at the time I knew that. One of the earliest things I had to wrestle with as a child was my sensitivity to animals and lots of stuff that wasn’t okay for boys in the ‘40s and ‘50s to have. If you brought up as a topic it was usually shunned and ridiculed or laughed at, so you rarely did that. The only people you might be able to talk to with were girls, and that wasn’t cool at that age in that era either. And so I remember that I never, ever missed going out to check my trap line. I remember one time my mother trying to lock me in when I had a 103 fever. The chances of finding a muskrat in the traps that I set, the way we set them alive after five minutes when the trap would bite them and they would dive in the water for protection, they would drown; maybe one out of 20 of the muskrats we took out of our traps were alive, which was increased torture. I always considered that really Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  3   �important, and mortal sin to me would’ve been, you know – some people do not check a trap line for two, three, or four days. That, to me, was just unpardonable. So in a perverse way it did develop a certain ethic. And you know, my feelings that 4:45 or 5:10 in the morning when it was raining outside wasn’t the issue, damn it. You had a job to do and if you want to engage in such a brutal activity, you had to have at least some standards involved in the process. A lot of the animals we were trapping had bounties on them, such as fox and weasel. When I first started trapping, at probably age 10, the state said they were bad and gave you money to prove it – there was a certain sense of – you know everything was, you know, most beliefs were accepted with zero tolerance. This was it, period; whether it was your being educated in your religion, your politics or in school. And if you had feelings against that, especially as a man, you were supposed to get a hold of them. And the fact that shooting animals, or trapping them especially, would bother me and continued to do so was troublesome to me. And I thought somehow that I was wrong. Most the other adult males and boys didn’t seem to have that problem at all. But I loved the mornings. I must say that I probably enjoyed trapping more than anything; I was usually out by myself. And later as I became a teenager and we got automobiles with my trapping buddy (we’re still very close) – he went right into the steel mills after high school, and we still talk and respect and love each other very much. So for about three years I did it with a person who I became very, very close to. Plus it was earning money, which was really important. And earning money was a badge of manhood, and adulthood, and responsibility and accomplishment. And we earned money from it; we were very, very good at it. And we worked hard at it, and fast, and checked our traps (you know, we were out there twice a day). The number of animals we caught per trap, per year was astounding; maybe the average would be three and for us it was 30! BM: Wow. JK: Because we moved them everyday, you know if they didn’t catch anything. And moved fast through a stream, and then came back over it a month later, for example, just to get a high probably sets with your traps. And I hunted and fished; all of that stuff as well. BM: Just in terms of setting your traps, you’re saying they’re in wet areas? JK: Well, obviously fox and weasel weren’t; but for mink, raccoon and primarily muskrat. Muskrat were the most abundant, the easiest to catch and they were, you know you could average $1.50 per pelt – which today would probably be $10. BM: Um-hmm. JK: And if you caught, you know, 500 of them – well, we’d catch about 350 a season. So you know, multiply that times $10 – for some kids to do something. Well we’d get 350 when we had a car, with about 45-50 traps. And of course you had to skin them; you know, skin them, scrape them, cure them. And it was a lot of work, and a lot of effort, and a lot of skill. There Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  4   �was a blood and blister intimacy with everything that you did in that rural environment in the ‘40s and ‘50s; whether it was recreation, whether it was work, whether it was hunting/fishing, and whether it was you getting paddled by the teachers or something, you know. It was much more intimate and direct than today. BM: The money that you earned, was that to help support your family? JK: Well, saving money for college, so indirectly yes. But also, you know anything you wanted you had to – anything extra other than Christmas presents and birthday presents – you had to get for yourself. And if you broke a birthday present, you know, that was tough. You had to replace it. And so it was you know, the money was important. When we lived on the farm we weren’t that wealthy. I was the first Kennedy in my family to go to college. I bet you I killed and we ate cottontails and squirrels, probably 200 year, for the family. That’s quite a lot of protein. In fact a columnist used to call squirrels “meat that grew on trees.” On the other side of the Mississippi, here’s a rodent that didn’t hibernate, and didn’t burrow under the snow like mice – it was always up in trees, it was always visible, and it kept a huge number of families from starving over the winters. They were always abundant. BM: How did you prepare it? JK: Oh you know, you usually par-boil them, and then roast them, bake them. You can make squirrel stew; they’re very tough meat, but they’re very good, very succulent. It’s unlike rabbit, you know. Rabbits are easier to vanish; squirrels are very muscular, but very good protein and very good food. And woodchucks, you know. All sorts of stuff we’d eat, and lots of it. And of course we’d always kill a couple of deer. So we had huge pit freezers, old ice cream freezers that would hold three times the amount that a normal freezer would today, that we would keep in a special room because they took up so much space. BM: And by a pit freezer, you mean a deep freeze? JK: Yeah, that’s right, yeah. And so I grew up – my brothers didn’t – but I grew up as the oldest, you know, doing a lot of that providing for the family. Then we moved more to a town where they cut grass and worked in grocery stores (all of which I did too) in the summer. But I worked just about every day, and with a trap on you worked – it was weekends and everything. BM: Sounds like having a dairy cow. JK: Yeah. And I milked cows by hand when we lived on the farm, until I was 12. And then I worked on farms in the summer, but by then the farms that employed us were milking with automatic equipment, and milking 100 cows a day; big, big operations. And I liked that too. I like the smell of fresh hay, I like using my muscles, I like being out in the sun, I like being on the farm. By then, using heavy equipment before you could drive at 16 you could be driving powerful machinery, and very dangerous equipment on the farm; and I liked that. In fact, if my father had owned a decent farm, I might have never gone to college or certainly wouldn’t have left afterwards. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  5   �I liked the rhythm of farm work, and I like the smells and the connections and the meaning, the depth, and the – I don’t want to call it spirituality, but the meditativeness of it all. It was very meditative work; I never had more time to think than when I was plowing. You don’t have that much time to think around a university. Much more time to think when you’re doing something – all you had to do is every five minutes just lift the plow, spin it around and drop it. I loved plowing at night, in the spring with the odors and the smells and the pull of the plow. Before I left the farm in Montgomery at age 12, they wouldn’t let me around heavy equipment. But the farmers, they were so poor, they didn’t have much equipment. I used the last two draft horses they had in a couple of generations, they could remember the names of all the draft horses: Tony and Burt because they were safe. And I would harrow corn with Tony and Burt and do things like that, that were slow and boring – while they would be on the expensive equipment, and the high status equipment, the tractor (and the more dangerous equipment). BM: Um-hmm. JK: And the smell of horses, and being around horses that weighed then, probably ten times as much as I did as a skinny ten year old. And that gentleness and that power and that predictability and that loyalty: both literally and figuratively. Draft horses are, you know, deep in my memories – symbolically as well as just fond memories. When people talk about ice skating and horses for fun – I just associate that with work, you know. Once the ice would freeze on the Susquehanna River, I’d go out and I’d skate five miles before school, just checking the muskrat traps through the ice. So ice skating and horses, that was work (not un-fond memories), and of course trucks too. And now trucks are these, you know, “boy toys.” You know, I can remember pickup trucks in the ’40s that were rough, nasty, uncomfortable, and there were dozens of parts on those trucks that have developed a taste for human blood; they would bite your fingers around the tailgates, and they were sharp, and nasty and mean! Nothing cozy about a bloody truck. Well and there’s nothing cozy about Holsteins either, and a measure or a mark of becoming an urban world is how people romanticize Holsteins. You know, after the first 10% of their life Holsteins aren’t very playful, you know, it’s hard to have much of a relationship with them. They just line up and you pull the milk out of them, and then shovel away all their crap and put it in the manure spreader in the spring (which was really back-breaking work), shovel the food into them. And most of it became manure; about 5% of all the silage and hay you’ve worked so hard to store up for them and feed them, ended up in milk. Most of it ended up in back-breaking feces to haul out and put on the field. But you know you learned the rhythm of working a fork and using your back and spinning your body. And I must say when we’d come back from Sunday Mass often, as a kid in the winter when the cows were in underneath the barn in a (mostly) covered barnyard – BM: Bank barns? JK: Yeah. It was a big – you know Pennsylvania barns – this was a serious barn. There were a couple of cows, probably 30, they milked by hand. And I’d put some fresh straw down and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  6   �bring them over on the south side where there would be a window; and you know, they would plop down and I’d lie against the cows and read – they generate so much heat. There’s never nothing going on inside a cow’s belly. I mean it is like New York traffic at noon! I mean there is bubbling, and gurgling, and gas, and belching; they are always chewing, and farting, and gurgling. And it’s really kind of content to just lay on Sunday, when you didn’t have to work (until you had to milk them by the time the sun went down). When it would be sleeting and nasty outside, to lie against a cow and read; and I would do that. BM: Your comments and your stories are so sensuous in a way that is not just milking the cow, but everything associated with it. You know, it’s no wonder you have such connections with natural resources, with the kinds of feelings and emotions that you have in just explaining life on the farm. JK: Um-hmm. BM: I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it described quite that way. JK: Well, even milking cows by hand – I mean I still have the forearms of a hand cow-milker or a piano player. That’s about the two ways you really get gripping forearms that way. There’s almost nothing physical that I ever would shut down on than milking. You can only milk a certain point, and then your hands would cramp up. You’d go in for breakfast and you couldn’t hold a spoon. Your hands would just be knotted. And that would be on the first cow and a half or two cows; it takes incredible grip and strength to hold and strip those teats. And if you’ve ever looked closely to the back of a cow – the hind, where the hams meet the stomach cavity, there’s a piece of skin, and you can pull that down and put your head up underneath there when it’s really cold. And you can put your head up right next to a cow, and of course your ear is right next to its stomach – BM: Right. JK: And you really, it’s like listening to the earth’s core. I mean, seriously. There’s just a lot – with all the fermentation that occurs in the digestive process, and all the double, triple chewing, you know, and all the gases (methane gases) are created by that process. Cows really – a cow is never quiet. Gurgling and it’s kind of interesting. And it was kind of meditative; you could hear the milk hitting the can: bing, bam, bam. And then the milk would fill up and it would change tune. And your head would be warm; you’d be against this animal that (some of them you had to put kickers on to milk by hand). BM: What was that? JK: They were chain kickers – you would put them around the back two legs, you’d just wrap them around. It was kind of a clamp that was on their hamstring, their Achilles tendon, if you will. You put it on a clamp and you just wrap the chain around. And it was loose, but if they kicked, it thwarted that; it stopped that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  7   �And I worked on farms during my teenage years, even though I could’ve worked in grocery stores for half the time and as much money. And I worked with some real jerks too, on some farms. Men had damaged little boys inside them that were just jerks; weren’t happy, weren’t content, weren’t peaceful. And even though they had the potential – they weren’t inherently evil or vicious if you gave them the benefit of the doubt – by their behavior they often looked that way. I still liked working out with my body, rather than working in a grocery store. And I liked the smells and feels out there, compared to being in the grocery store, or in a garage, or in the mills (which money drove me into when I started going to college). And I worked in the mills – you know cabinet mills, with all the smell of lacquer and sawdust, all the noise and toxic you know, steel mills with all the danger and noise and banging. And that I never, never liked. But I could make money; I could make serious money there. I didn’t start out in Forestry, you know. Being the first Kennedy to go to college, I wanted to be an artist, but my parents wouldn’t hear of it; especially my mother who was very emotional, and very insecure, and very status-driven, and upwardly mobile (what the neighbors think). They want me to be a doctor or lawyer; when I first said I liked to be an artist, you know, “Glory be to God! Jesus, Mary and Joseph you’re never going to make any money, you’re going to be living with some Protestant girl in Greenwich Village you’re not married with!” You know – I wouldn’t do that. “You’re going to be broke! We’re not going to work our fingers to the bone to send you to be some artist.” And I said, “Mom, I can be an art teacher until I make it.” “No, no, no!” So I had a really close friend to the family, unlike some of the men that I worked for that I told you about – but he was a dentist in Scranton, Pennsylvania (we called him “Uncle” but he wasn’t, he was just a good friend of the family). He was sweet; he was one of the first men that was really sweet and seemed to be okay with it and everyone else was – he was just a nice guy. And his son didn’t want to be a dentist and he said, “Be a dentist Jimmy, and you know, you’ll come on by the time I can start you in my practice; you’ll give me some time off and I’ll just give you the practice after you work there for five or six years.” You know, it was job security and a good income and a house in suburbia, but I was having nightmares about putting my hand in people’s warm, red mouth. Now I’m an adolescent and I’m sure Freud would have a field day with that! BM: [Laughing] JK: But I would wake up full of sweat, just terrified, thinking, “Oh my god! I’m going to be reaching in mouths all day!” Inside a dentist’s office always smelled terrible, and you cause pain to people. And so I went up to Penn State to interview, and they gave me (this would have been the summer of ’58), they gave me the test of what I would be good at. It was this pimple-faced (probably Master’s) grad student psychologist, you know, that has to do the grunt work after the meeting with the parents. But my parents were such ‘40s product, you know, early 19th century product, and [he] looked official; they gave them the benefit of the doubt, to a fault. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  8   �So he’s looking through my results and said, “You don’t score very high here, being a dentist. Why do you want to be a dentist?” And I said, “Well, I really don’t.” And he said (he was very official at first), and then he sent my parents out and then he asked me that question. He said, “Why are you doing it?” And I said, “Well, my parents want me to and I’d be working, blah, blah, blah.” And he said, “But are you going to be happy doing that?” I said, “No, I don’t think so, but I’ll just spend the weekends hunting and fishing and doing stuff to compensate for that.” And he said, “Well what job would you really like to do?” And I said, “Well, I’d like to be a forester.” And he said, “Well, look right here, you score very high on the success chart for that.” And he said, “We have a very good forestry program here.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And he said, “Well, I tell you what. Why don’t we talk to your parents?” And so my parents came in and he brought that up, my mother, “Oh, glory be to god! He’s going to work out in a fire tower and be living with bears, and we’ll never see him, he’ll never make any money, he’ll just be a hermit and I’ll never be a grandmother!” BM: [Laughing] JK: But my father said, “Well, why do you want to do that Jim?” And I said, “I think I’ll be happy.” “Happy? Happy, what’s happy have to do with it, for god’s sakes?” [Laughing] So, the guy said, “Listen, I have to take a break.” So I remember we went out at the HUB, you know – I think it was the Hetzel Student Union – BM: Hetzel Student Union Building. JK: And we leaned on the railing, looking down, across campus towards the town, you know, in that direction (I remember the direction we were looking at, down towards DU, which was the fraternity I was in when I went to school there). And dad said, “Why do you want to do it?” I said, “I think it will make me happy, Dad.” And he said, “Well, happy hmm?” He said, “Well, I haven’t been very happy in what I’ve done most of my life, so if you want to do it, I’ll support you. I’ll manage Mom.” And that was the most intimate – my father was very spoiled, very self-centered; the only child of an Irish immigrant (she didn’t get married until she was in her 30s, and been a domestic until that point); spoiled him rotten. But he was a nice guy, but you had to – one of the reasons that I learned to hunt and fish is that was the only way I could spend time with him. You had to do what he wanted to do. And long before I could carry a gun, I was his beagle. I skinned all the animals, cleaned the fish, you know, take care of his fly lines, dry them. I mean I was his page, you know if you will. And he, you know, for a gentleman that was quite appropriate. But we did spend time together and we got to like and know each other. But that’s one of the only times where I really thought he understood me and came to my rescue. So I switched into Forestry and never regretted it. Although I was getting into Forestry because I thought I could escape a complex world by working in the trees and not having to deal with people and feelings, and check on my trap line on the way to mark timber, or something out west. Seldom would be heard a discouraging word. I never knew I would have to work with people; I was terrified of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  9   �speaking. I was pretty insecure too. I was running away from things getting into forestry, as much as I was drawn to, you know, thinking it would be a good thing to do; it would be a noble area that I would be involved in public service. BM: So tell me what it was like studying forestry at that time, in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s? JK: It was very much like getting ready for your confirmation. You know, you were taught Forestry like the Baltimore catechism as a Catholic. This is truth, get it dummy, and don’t forget it. Fire is bad; you put it out by 10 o’clock, end of story. No debate; there was no room for ambiguity, much less a sense of humor with my professors or imagination. And the image of what they were training you for was a driver’s license, rather than a learner’s permit. I mean, there was none of this continuous learning imagery and what we talk about now, today, in any stage of education: imagination, taking risks, confrontation, all that stuff – it’s more talked about than practiced. And it still isn’t as embraced among colleagues as much as you would think it would with all the lather about it. And I resisted that, you know. I wasn’t a very good student. I was a C+ student until my junior year, when I said, “To hell with it! I’m killing myself; I’m working 60 hours a week, you know. I’m smoking a couple of packs of cigarettes a day; I’m not having any fun.” By the end of my sophomore year we went to summer camp in central Pennsylvania, I still had yet to go work for my first forestry job. I’d got back and work – [End Tape 1 side A, begin Tape 1 side B] BM: Side 2, with Jim Kennedy. Sophomore year. JK: Yeah, I said, “The heck with it. I’m going to join a fraternity; I’m going to start having fun.” I went out for lacrosse. I cut back my studying to 40 hours a week, you know, and my grade point average – I started dating girls. My grade point average jumped. Probably jumped from a 2.3, was my grade point average at the end of my sophomore year – which was 60% of the total credits in those days, the way that they would cram so much in the first two preparatory years – and my grade point average jumped to 3. And I started feeling better about myself. I think my colleagues, my fraternity brothers voted me into leadership positions: as Rush Chairman, Social Chairman, Vice President (that I didn’t think I could do, didn’t want, and was stunned why they were so stupid to entrust me to do that!). [Laughing] BM: [Laughing] What fraternity is this? JK: Delta Upsilon. BM: Okay. JK: And I did well. And that probably saved me more than anything. And ironically, rather than my grade point average going down for feeling better about myself, it went up. I lettered as Lacrosse Manager at Penn State my senior year, for a wonderful coach – Pensick. Pensick Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  10   �was the Lacrosse coach; lovely young guy. Probably he was only about 28; I really loved and respected him. And I didn’t feel that way about most of my university professors; they were pretty rigid, humorless. I don’t know. Pennsylvania then, forest products were not the values of Pennsylvania forests in the ‘50s, and they behaved like it was. They were still treating them like a tree farm, and I knew better than that. And it was no spirituality about it, far from it. That was considered touchy-feely crap. And so again, even at that stage I couldn’t think openly and discuss openly my relationship with forests. BM: So how did – with Delta Upsilon – JK: Yeah. BM: How did that start to change? I mean, were there mentors there? Were there people that you looked up to, or? JK: I had some good brothers (as well as some real jerks). You know, we went through a brutal pledge process a humiliating pledge process. But you know I knew how to do that stuff. And as a result, afterwards when we went into the Forest Service and all the male rituals that would, you know, intimidate and anger some of our male students (and especially the females), I knew that stuff. I knew it didn’t last forever; I knew it was, you know, kind of cheap rituals that males tended to do in initial bonding activities. So I went through that. But no, it gave me a community in a huge, impersonal place like Penn State. And you know how important that is. And I think it did that, and it gave me a sense of confidence that I could be as good as these guys in almost anything, and they all came from (seemed) better backgrounds than me. I came from as lower-class as probably, a lower class than 80% of my fraternity brothers and pledges. And yet, they thought I was more than okay. And you know, so for leadership and confidence, that was a real boost to me. As again, I wasn’t a very good undergraduate student. There was one professor at Penn State who saved me, by the name of Bob McDermott, who appreciated a sense of humor. Most of my professors did not like being questioned, where Bob just loved questions and kept, you know – like my educational method is just begging students, encouraging students, teasing them, confronting them to open up and get involved in some kind of a dance, rather than sitting around like a bunch of toads, taking notes. And he became one of my champions and he got me back into a master’s program at Penn State. My grades, even my success in the last two years hardly pulled me up. And a lot of the professors still identified me as a trouble-maker and an annoyance, where Bob respected me. And he had clout – he was Assistant Department Head by then – and he got me back into, after three years working for the Forest Service in Oregon, got me back in. Now the first summer I had was my junior year. It was at Rogue River National Forest, on the ranger district where I became permanent. And when we came back, driving back (two of us in a – it would have been a 1953 Oldsmobile) we plotted a course that brought us through Cache Valley. We were driving six hours on, and I ran into two Utah State graduates: one was a summer job person; the other one had graduated three or four years, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  11   �five years ahead of me and was a permanent employee on the district I was in in Oregon. And so I heard about Utah State University and about Ted Daniels stories and everything. And so my buddy was asleep, and I had such low expectations of Utah – when we came over from Tremonton we didn’t take the cutoff, so we went to Brigham City. When I came up Sardine Canyon, I was trying to wake my buddy up. It was in September and there was a little bit of snow up in the high country and the aspen had changed. And I had expected sage brush and salt flats, and I was stunned! You know, we had just come across the Snake River Valley in southern Idaho (which is not nearly as impressive as this mountain range). And then I saw the university and I drove around and I couldn’t wake my buddy up, he was out of it. We, by that time, probably been driving 20 hours from Crater Lake. And then I went up the canyon, it was a beautiful day. I was just astounded at how gorgeous it was. And there was water running in the streets, water running down the canyon. And then when we finally got to Bear Lake, it was in all it’s blue glory, I finally pulled over at a view point and got Bob up – put a cigarette in his mouth to wake him up! BM: [Laughing] JK: And I said, “Look at this!” And so I just thought, “If I ever have a chance to come back to this place, man I am going to take it!” So I think of that, oh, 10-20 times a year. And here I am retiring from Utah State University. But it really had a profound impact on me. I remember when I was back about three or four years later, after I got a permanent job on the Rogue River and then I was back at Penn State. We were sitting around in an Ag-Econ class, after an Ag-Econ class a bunch of went to get a cup of coffee at the lounge in the building and we were talking about great places. And I said, “Bear Lake, Utah.” And there was a student there whose parents were raspberry farmers, who was from Utah State (he was getting his Master’s degree). And I remember how he perked up, because we hadn’t talked about much of anything – he was a pretty quiet guy. “I live there!” You know, yeah. So I fell in love with this part of the country. But I got a Forestry degree also so I could come out west, you know. My class of people never came out west unless you were getting paid; never went to Europe unless you were wearing a military uniform, you know. So I wanted – as much as my imagination could take me, in terms of seeing a part of the world – it was coming to the west. I mean I dreamed about the west from all the hunting magazines. In sixth grade I was fortunate to have a teacher – she never married – in the summer she would come out west (by herself or with a friend) and tour the parks. And she subscribed to Arizona Highways, which in 1954 is colorful and is imaginative and as beautiful a magazine as you could hold in your hands. It was gorgeous! And I would just dream; and if I did my work quick, and early, and as prudently and fast (which I could do when I concentrated), it was a little nook that had cushions on the floor. You could get up and go back there and read what you wanted to read. And she’d always have her magazines there. So that had an influence on me wanting to come out west. And I decided that by, well before I was 12. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  12   �BM: Hmm. And that would be probably original art on those Arizona Highways because color – JK: Well it was color photography, it was incredible. BM: Oh was it? Okay. JK: Oh, for the ‘40s you couldn’t see the color photography. I mean National Geographic was still all black and white. BM: Yeah. JK: You know Saturday Evening Post didn’t have nearly the – Life magazine didn’t have as many. It was great color photography. BM: Hmm. JK: Called Arizona Highways. BM: Absolutely amazing. JK: It was really great. And so that just haunted me, those pictures haunted me. And of course all the sunlight and red rock; such a different country. So I wanted to come out west. And I never considered a job any place else; I was offered a job for Pennsylvania State Forests and that was nice, but that was backup. BM: And you mentioned Rogue River National Forest and you said Crater Lake. Is that the Crater Lake District then? JK: Well it was up next to Crater Lake. The Rogue River goes down stream and then it jumps over to Ashland and places like, yeah Ashland and it jumps around, like a lot of those forests do. The supervisors’ office was Medford; our first son was born in that hospital in Medford. I just loved that forest out there. There were times I felt guilty. I was a bachelor for the first year out there and it was just wonderful. I was the youngest Scout Master in Oregon and we had about 12 loggers’ kids (maybe one or two might have been Forest Service boys). And you know I’d take them out at least three times a month in the summer. We roamed all through those hills and it was just wonderful to work, wonderful to be there. A bit lonely because Kathy and I had been pinned before I went out there. And then she came out for a year. And I took a year’s leave without pay (educational leave). Happily they kept us on medical insurance because we had our second child. We didn’t realize we were pregnant with our second child or we might not have left. But I went back to get a Master’s degree in Outdoor Recreation because I could see that was important. BM: And that was at Penn State? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  13   �JK: Um-hmm. I could see that very few people knew what they were doing, and even less of them seemed to care about the value of recreation. I realized, working on the Rogue River, that I knew lots about silviculture and ecology but very little about people. And that was beginning to fascinate me. Plus my girlfriend and wife was a psychologist and brought out all of her Freud books and everything about psychology – which I never would have read as a forester. But there was not much to read in that little logging town of Prospect, Oregon (there was about 800 people): one bar, one grocery store, and one gas station, and a high school. And I just got interested in that. Then in the ‘50s and ‘60s as far into the social sciences you were allowed to go in natural resources was economics and micro-economics, at that – which is even less involved in people than macro or developmental economics. So I didn’t really want to be an economist, but I was so naïve, I didn’t know that. You know, so I just dutifully followed – and economics is so demanding with all the mathematics and conceptual thinking that you didn’t have much time to wonder whether this was it when you working so hard just to understand it. But by the time I got my PhD I was ready to branch out more. Even though I got my PhD in Economics, I wouldn’t have gone to Virginia Tech (it was called VPI then) unless I trusted my major professor; and we had a verbal agreement that he’d let me take Planning and Sociology and other courses, which he did. BM: Um-hmm. And who was that professor? JK: That was Larry Davis, who I ended up talking him into coming out to an interview at Utah State in my last year and a half of my PhD program. When the dean was hounding him to apply and come out for an interview, he said, “Who in the hell wants to go to Utah?” I said, “Larry! Logan!” I was just passionate in these descriptions in what a great place it was. And then he gets up – we’re in a Rough Rider bar in Washington National Airport – and he walks out into the hall and calls Thad Box at Utah State. And I’m sitting there looking at our two beer mugs going, “You dolt! Here you are talking your major professor into going out to interview. He’s going to leave you! What the hell’s going to happen? This is really poor career planning.” But we loved and respected each other, even when I was a grad student. And our families were very, very close. I’m coming back through here in July to go up to his and his wife’s 50th wedding anniversary at Flathead Lake. Ironically, they live in Spokane, not far from where our son lives. Because our kids were raised together; our kids are as close to their kids as, you know, as either family’s cousins. We spent a lot of time together. Even when a lot of his colleagues and my fellow grad students said, “How do you pull this off?” You know, and it was the old ROTC dichotomous, mechanistic thinking: you don’t shoot and fraternize with the troops, especially if you’re going to send them out to battle – whether it’s with a machine gun or standing up in front of your dissertation committee, you know! [Laughing] You couldn’t mix rationality with feelings. Which is just dumb, and we never bought into that. We’ve always been close and he was a very tough – he had four PhD students and only two of us made it through. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  14   �BM: Whoa. JK: Yeah. That was pretty standard in those days; the survival rate was not that great. BM: So what year are we talking about when you finally finished your PhD? JK: That would’ve been ’69. I was on the faculty there for two years then came out here. BM: You came directly to Utah State from there? JK: Yeah. And I’ve never gone any place else. Now eight of the 38-39 years I’ve been at Utah State, I’ve been out of here; and usually on foreign assignments. So it’s given us an opportunity to go see other parts of the world and come back to your country and your university different than when you left. And seeing the place you’re returning to differently, for better or worse. BM: What are some of those places you visited? JK: Well, the first sabbatical was a year with the New Zealand Forest Service, on a national New Zealand fellowship. Then I got a Fulbright at Trinity College, Dublin; and that was the last year that we were together as a family. Both of our sons were students and Kathy was a research assistant. The university started in 1605 – oh excuse me, 1590. So that’s about 15 years before Jamestown Colony. And it feels that way. It feels like going to school in the Vatican: ancient university, wonderful place. And a wonderful city – in ’83 Ireland was still very much a peasant society. They called it “Dublin town” then, and it felt like a town. (As did Washington D.C. when we first started going there in the ‘60s, before it became so big, fast, impersonal.) But, no it was a wonderful place to be. And after that I went to the Wageningen University in the Netherlands in ’85. Then I did a sabbatical – I was a special assistant to Mike Dombeck with the BLM. Then they asked me to stay another year, so they just bought out my contract. Then we went back to Wageningen for my last sabbatical, for a year. In I think it was something like ’03 or ’05 – something like that. BM: How do you spell that university? JK: W-A-G-E-N-I-N-G-E-N. It’s Wageningen. The “g” is a [makes guttural sound]. Wageningen. BM: And in all these places, as far as a sabbatical, was it primarily economics that you were working on? JK: No, no. I’ve never been a very disciplined economist. I taught it and did it because I had to. But I’ve always been interested in organizational behavior and the ability and inability of traditional cultures, like foresters in the Forest Service, to adapt to changing realities of an urban, post-industrial society. That valued non-market goods, which really made my Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  15   �economics less and less potent. And I never was a good economist. So many economists are so anal and so judgmental, they’re kind of intellectual Jehovah’s, you know. They really talk and think like they know what the hell they’re talking about, which makes me suspect of any group like that. BM: [Laughing] JK: And I didn’t find them very good company, you know. They were so anal, and so sure of themselves, and so narrow and so irrelevant that I just moved in another direction. I used to call myself an economist of sorts, and often introduce myself as a forest economist that’s been in recovery for 12 years or something! [Laughing] I didn’t want to be an economist, but I didn’t know that. And I trusted my elders too damn much. But they gave me their best advice, they were even more ignorant than I was and didn’t realize it. So, no economics just got me started and allowed me to get in a university and earn my keep for the first five years. BM: So go back to that, you mentioned coming to Utah State. Tell us what that was like. And the year again -- JK: Well I came here because this was a multiple-use oriented school. Timber wasn’t king here – look out the window. I mean Utah State could never justify itself on board feet; maybe red meat. And as a result, I think the first outdoor recreation course in the world was taught here; certainly I think the first in the country. They were very multiple-use oriented. I also came to Utah State because they weren’t under the thumb and the influence of an agriculture college, which was so conservative and so reactionary, and so inflexible in their inability to adapt. Plus, they were always the ones out, you know, throwing the stones at the people protesting the war and other things that I believed in. And so when we came here, the College of Natural Resources was the most liberal college on campus, including HASS (Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences) – with such wonderful people like Aldo Leopold’s last grad student, Stokes, which was really ironic for a northern Utah cow college. Of course “liberal” is always relative here. But that was a big attraction. And there were a lot of refugees here from large universities that came to Utah State as professors for the right reasons: they were tired of the universities of Wisconsin’s or Penn States, regardless of their supposed qualities and rankings. You know, this last weekend we graduated one forestry student – we had to limit for every two people that applied to summer camp, we could accept one. We could only hold 30 students and 60 would want to go to summer camp – this was just Forestry. And we were an academy for the agencies; we trained range guys, wildlife biologists and foresters for the federal agencies. And we wouldn’t have thought that, but we behaved very much like a WestPoint. It was a much more liberal WestPoint than most. And they were good people, and it was a good community, good departments, a good college. BM: What departments were there at that time? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  16   �JK: Well, there were three: there was Range, there was Fisheries and Wildlife, and there was Forestry (that soon became Forestry and Outdoor Recreation). BM: And were you responsible for teaching some of those Outdoor Rec courses at that time? JK: Ironically, no. They had a huge Recreation contingent here, which really attracted me. I was an economist and I was a bridge between economics and outdoor recreation for them. I taught Policy and Economics, primarily, and Principles of Forestry because I always taught Principles of Forestry as a social science. And nobody wanted to teach that, plus I could get to the students early in their career, when their minds were open and when they were was still romantic idealists; and give them confidence and context to stay that way throughout their rational education. BM: And Principles of Forestry is like a freshman level course? JK: Freshman or sophomore. BM: Okay. JK: We had five Principles courses: Principles of Wildlife, Forestry, Range, Outdoor Recreation, and Watershed. BM: Okay. JK: And I taught Forestry, which was the biggest. It was a general education course also, because there was enough social scientists on the general education committee to recognize what a broad course it was. I used to fill the business auditorium – which was the biggest auditorium (well maybe there was a bigger one in Old Main). But it was almost 300 students. I’d have a whole flock of TAs. BM: And the breakdown was university-wide? JK: Yeah, but you know, all the forestry students had to take it and a lot of the other natural resource majors took it. And about half were natural resource majors, half were across campus. BM: Wow! That is different. You know, when I think of Principles of Forestry from other places I’ve been at, and in talking with other instructors, it was very much – JK: I always taught it as changing relationships between people and forest ecosystems, and how important culture was in shaping your relationships – as my rural culture in the 1950s was shaping my relationships with traps and hunting. And I was teaching in the ‘70s and some of my students said, “Well you don’t look like a hunter! How could you hunt? Blah, blah, blah. Didn’t it bother you?” “Well yeah, sure!” And also you know, I said, “I was learning life skills. I didn’t know if I’d ever live through between 18 and 24 – my draftable age. I fully expected being able to shoot squirrels might save my life and the life of my buddies, plus Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  17   �keeping the world free from evil.” I couldn’t remember years when there wasn’t a war: we were either finishing one up or talking about the next one. I remember when the Korean War broke out, I counted on my fingers, you know. I was eleven when it broke out, how long would it have to last before I could be drafted into that place. And they just didn’t get that, you know. I mean they thought that they could avoid killing other people in the name of their country – which has its bright side and its blessings of course. But I thought I was going to end up shooting people; and do it efficiently, without letting my emotions get in the way. So if I couldn’t pop a deer, what was I going to do when people were shooting back at me and my friend was screaming because he had his shoulder blown off? So, you know, they didn’t get that. They get it less today. BM: So this Principles course that you taught – that’s a fascinating approach as far as the relationship and not just the products – JK: Well, I got into forestry because of relationships. Even the very pragmatic, technician types in forestry – most of them got into forestry out of romantic relationships. And yet they had that beaten out of us, we couldn’t respect and nourish it, and even elevate it, throughout our education and our professional development. And I tried to get ahead of that. And every principles class I’ve taught has always had a strong element of professionalism woven throughout the whole course; a major tapestry, you know, cross strain and pattern. And I’d say that professionalism is three components: a trilogy of caring, knowing and doing. For the first day of all those Principles classes, including the last two I just graded here a couple of days ago, the first day I’d ask them to define professionalism. I’d ask them, “How many of you in this class plan to be professionals in four, five or six years?” All the hands go up. This is the way I seduce them and co-op them. So I’d say, “Well, you want to be a professional? How many want to be a good professional?” And all the hands go up, you know. And I say, “Well, what’s a good professional? Most of you have met good ones and bad ones, so tell me the characteristics of professionalism.” And they’ll throw about 20 of them at you. 80-85% of them will be characteristics of good people in our culture: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly – you know the Boy Scout characteristics of a good person. But the difference between a good person and a professional is confidence, and that’s in their mind of things they keep mentioning. And I’ll talk to them about, “Well, would you rather have a dentist you like or one that can put fillings in your teeth that don’t hurt and stay there?” Well, alright, you know. “How many of you have had teachers?” (Because that’s a big role model, positive and negative role models that you’ve experienced as professionals.) “How many of you have had teachers that were good guys and gals, but weren’t competent? How many of you have had jerks, but really did teach you something?” Alright, so we’re back and forth on that. And so I say, “Alright, how do you want me to treat you people? As post-high school students or as emerging, young professionals? How many of you want me to treat you as post-high school kids?” [Pause] “How many of you want me to treat you like emerging, young professionals?” You know, some of the hands go right up like this. And I say, “Okay. I’ll do that, I want to do that.” Quite honestly I’d do that even if you told me you didn’t want it. But I said, “You know, this requires more of me and more of you, if you want me to treat you with that respect and with that kind of information. And it has higher expectations than you might otherwise get.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  18   �So within the first week then, we’re defining professionalism as these three characteristics. And I said, you know, “Most of you here want to care more. You’re here to really increase your competency in caring, or knowing, or doing.” You know, and it’s the “knowing” part, the cognitive part, the rational part. And I said, “The ‘doing’ we don’t actually teach you much anymore, with field trips and stuff that I had ad nausea as a kid, as a forestry student. You’re going to get that by summer jobs. And we’re really going to encourage you to do that; it might be uncomfortable, you might not make as much, blah, blah, blah. But you’ve got to do that.” And whether it’s teaching summer schools or camp if you want to be a teacher; if you’re an engineer, getting out and doing various things in engineering or natural resources. Because again, at least half or more of the students aren’t natural resource students. And I said, “Then there’s ‘caring’. We don’t teach you how to care here.” Usually it’s the opposite. But I said, “That’s important. How many of you know what profession you want to be, you know? How many of really care?” We talk about caring and I confirm how important that is. And how, if you’re not careful in all this pursuit for knowing, especially if they’re taught the traditional male rationale of dominating everything – that you could squeeze the caring out of you; don’t let that happen, that’s precious. And I’m telling you and I’m honoring your already moving quite forward. I ask them, “How many of you feel competent as an emerging, young professional?” Most of the hands go up. I said, “Well look, here’s the caring part. You told me you were caring and that’s huge! You’re not recognizing and respecting that. You have to do that, because we will not do that in academia. So this is your personal responsibility, you cherish that. Not only that, that’s going to drive what direction you go and more important than that, it’s going to keep you from burning out, you know. It’s not going to be the ‘knowing’ that’s going to cause you to burn out and give up; it’s going to be the caring and how you manage your feeling relationships and your passion, and your forgiveness and your tolerance. And that’s huge for adaptability as well.” And I wanted to get to them early on that, because by that time I’d realized how important that is. And you get into nursing, police work, teaching, engineering usually for caring. And most of you, if you get into it just for the money – that’s not very romantic in a way – but I don’t find that the case in most people; even accountants can be romantic about it! [Laughing] God knows how, but they seem to. And so I want to recognize that, endorse that and enforce that. And I want them to think broadly and liberally too. So it was a very conscientious attempt for me to teach the courses that nobody wanted to teach: the introductory course. I wanted to subvert – I couldn’t change my college way of thinking, but I could help put students into their class that would make my colleagues think and teach differently. But it’s a long-term process. But I’ve always been in long-term processes, certainly as a forester every tree you plant is a huge act of faith. BM: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  19   �JK: So it’s kind of, you know, that’s why I took those big, general education courses. You got no professional rewards or respect from your colleagues, or university rewards; you did that in spite of the reward system – which romantics tend to do. And I’ve always accepted my romanticism as cherished, personal property. [Stop and start recording.] [Tape 2 of 3: A] BM: Okay, we’re continuing on Tape 2, with side 1, with Jim Kennedy. And he’s just finishing up his discussion on why the general ed courses that he taught at Utah State were so important and influential in terms of his vision and his idea of where he wanted to go with education, and with students, and with colleagues. So go ahead, finish what you were – JK: It was subversive, but first impressions last. I hadn’t been to the graduations for the last couple of years (because I’m usually out of here, down at the ranch by the time graduation). BM: And the ranch is in? JK: Tropic, Utah. BM: Alright. JK: And the dean, you know, put out a memo, “Please come.” Plus this might be the last time I’m on campus in May, so I went. And the valedictorian said that she graduated from high school in California (this is our college valedictorian), and she was so sick and so disillusioned with academia/school was going; she went to Mexico and was going to just be a bartender in Margaritaville for a couple of years. She ran into a friend of hers that was coming up to Utah State, and talked to her into coming up. And she took my introductory course and she said her life changed. And I turned her on to thinking, and feeling, and excitement. And seeing that finding a profession that feeds your soul, as well as your wallet, can be – in our society, the way it’s constructed for better or worse – is an opportunity for joy, and fulfillment and growth; or an opportunity for despair, or in between: just boredom. You’ve got to choose, what do you want to do with your life? And that’s a big decision. She’s gone on to graduate school, so that was kind of cool. BM: And what area of CNR did she graduate in? JK: Shupe escorted her down the isle, so I think it was – you know, I don’t remember. But I mean she was one of just the general ed students that came in and then switched to our college. BM: That’s amazing. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  20   �JK: And that happens, and that’s as close to miracles as you can get. There are lots of theories of education, but that result that I experienced on Saturday, supports my inoculation theory, you know. Where you sneeze on them, like with Swine Flu, or with Jesus of Nazareth breathing on them, “Who’s sins you shall be forgiven,” and they don’t think they’re getting a cold. I remember one time a student walked into my office – this was in the ‘70s – and said, “You son of a bitch. I came out here to ski and I ski every Tuesday and Thursday, and I’ve taken your class on Tuesday and Thursday and I thought I’d cut it.” He said, “You’ve turned me onto school! The damn snow is melting and I haven’t been skiing!” BM: [Laughing] That’s hilarious! JK: He said, “You have really screwed up my life!” He said, “Damn! I am really turned onto this stuff and I’m becoming responsible. And my parents and I don’t know really what happened! [Laughing] JK: That was the plot. I’ve developed a very humble image as myself as an educator. I used to see myself as a lightning rod, but you’re really a seed crystal. You know, the solution has to be charged for you to make major changes in people’s lives. Now, for better or worse, they usually give you too much damn credit because they feel their lives – the valedictorian put it (Sivvy was her last name – I forget), but she said, “Her world pivoted” on that course. So pivotal points is a nice image, you know. For physics or for a ballerina, a pivot point and angles over pose – that’s nice imagery to me. And you know, part of what you teach you are a role model and a life force and all the intellectual crap, especially is so important in economics. You become a positive or negative role model. I used the verb “educate” and “role model” almost like in one breath. Because you ask people – I’ve interviewed a lot of people – five, ten, 15 years out of the contact with teacher. And they never remember the theory, they always remember the person. And as a role model: positive and/or negative, or both. So you know I figured that out pretty early. I’m much more humble. And usually when students write me about what an influence I’ve had in their life – I’ll always say, because I think it’s the truth, not just cause -- I can accept compliments in my old age now (I couldn’t when I was younger). But I said, you know, “You came into my life with all of that and more. And I just happened to enforce it, nurture it, confirm it. And you’re giving me more credit than I deserve, which I’ll take, but I know and I want you to know that I think you’re giving me more credit. And I’d like you to take more credit for yourself.” And I was glad there to be the catalyst. A catalyst I think is accurate and good image. I was glad I was there and I was glad I was the catalyst. But you had to be ready for a catalyst. And when you look at it, a catalyst is usually not much of the weight in a solution; it’s a small amount. But the other mass there ready to receive it. So you know being an educator really requires receptive people. And it might be asking too much of 19 year olds that have so little life experience. They just don’t have anything to make it relevant, the things I’m talking about. But many of them do, and they’ll never be able to come back to me and say I didn’t tell them so. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  21   �BM: There is a tremendous passion when you talk about what you do. And it’s not just because you like the woods, you know, like you hear a lot of foresters talk. You obviously have talked about liking to be outside and how that, you know, with your ADHD and all of that, those kinds of behaviors. But I think that’s something else that is just like a thread through all of what you talked about. There’s that passion for what you do in caring about people and how that comes out in your teaching – over and over again I hear from students how stimulating that is. And that is something that not a lot of us have been exposed to. You know, some of us have had that lucky series of teachers – JK: Yeah. BM: But that’s, I think a very important quality that you put into all the teaching that you’ve done. JK: Well, if you teach natural resources not as sacred stuff, but as human-ecosystem relationships, based on what you know – knowing and caring about parts of ecosystems. If you study natural resources you’ve got to learn about yourself, because it’s relationships. And you’re pivotal in that relationship and so are the people. And you’ve got to be empathetic with other people, because without relationship there are no natural resources, you know. And occasionally when I really want to berate my colleagues here, I tell them you know, “It’s like you’re saying, ‘We’re the college of traditional marriages.’ And for 95% of the course we teach the husband side of marriages. But in the end we give them a course in the wife side of natural resources – the wife side of marriage.’” That’s like saying you teach natural resources here and you give them a human dimension course at the end? And in wildlife, often that human dimension course is law enforcement? Better give them zero, than to give them the relationship of the enforcer, you know. The Conan the Barbarian for right and truth. I said, “No wonder you turn out such dysfunctional, damaged professionals.” You’ve got to focus on relationship and you’ve got to learn about yourself if you see yourself in a relationship. And you’ve got to take ownership for that. If you fear rattlesnakes, you’ve got to take ownership for that, it’s not the rattlesnake’s fault, you know. If you want change, you better change because the rattlesnake isn’t. It’s your perception and response and behavior around them – and that’s true with just about everything. Living in a bureaucracy, living with a crappy provost or whatever, you know. You’ve got to take responsibility for your feelings about that, and manage that. You probably can’t change him or the war, you know. That’s not to say you don’t do something about it; stoicism is only one response, or denial is another that is even less justifiable than stoicism. So I really focus on the relationship part and that you’ve got to take responsibility for that. And I do that in class too. I said, “I expect you to come prepared. You expect me to come prepared, and damn it, you should. I’m a professional, I’m proud of it and I’m going to prove to you I’m a good one. But I expect you to come doing the reading. If you don’t come having done the reading, I’m not going to sound that organized; I’m not going to sound that profound. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that; I’m not! I’ve given you Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  22   �the readings, spoon fed them to you. It takes a half hour – most of you spend that much time getting your hair ready to go out in the world. If you can’t do that, you’re really not an emerging, young professional that has much of a future ahead of him.” So I beg them, I kid them, and I’ll confront them. But I can do that fully justifiably and I get away with that. I grade every one of their exams. They come to see me, not a TA; there is never a true/false or multiple choice questions in it. That really gets their attention because they know that weekend before I give them back their exams, I’ve spent 20-30 hours doing their exams; comments in the margins. That gives credibility normally you don’t get when you don’t deserve it. You really invest yourself and that counts. They hear so much talk: “I love you; I respect you, blah, blah, blah.” Show me the beef, you know. Your involvement with them and your willingness to read – some of them wish you wouldn’t read their questions and make as many comments as you would and just give them an ‘A’. It doesn’t work that way. BM: Well, and you have a vested interest in them. They’re not just [inaudible] sitting in your classroom: they are living, breathing organisms that are going to go out and change the world. JK: Yeah. And it goes back to the non-intellectuals, the farm guys I knew that taught me that, in terms of I want to see it raw. I want to see it and wanting to spend time with me or work me, or do something with me, you know. And get up early in the morning and do it and not whine about the weather or whatever other things you’re using to limit yourself or protect yourself. So that’s a form of vulnerability in a way. BM: Um-hmm. JK: But it’s also a form of accountability that seems to be diminishing, especially in the way we grade them too. BM: What do you mean? JK: The greening of the grading system: everybody gets a three-point anymore. BM: Hmm. So influence wise – you’ve mentioned a few names along the way – who would you recognize as your mentors? JK: Well, Bob McDermott who saved me as an undergraduate student really did. And he loved questioning, he loved debate; he had a sense of humor, he was open-minded, he laughed. He was involved with life in the classroom and in his mind as well as when (I suspect) being out with friends – which maybe some of my other stick-in-the-mud professors were, but I never could sense it. A lot of people that I’ve read, you know. And you know, sometimes it’s a personality defect for a person that’s talked as much about mentoring and being a mentor, and studied mentoring as I have – there have been no real saviors other than Bob McDermott in my undergraduate. And I only had two classes from him: Outdoor Recreation and Range; really Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  23   �the only multiple-use classes I had at Penn State. I was fortunate to be his TA when I back for my Master’s degree too. Larry Davis, my major professor and department head here was a wonderful guy; really bright, intellectual guy. And I think he also saw me as a different personality and thinking type, and he embraced me for that. Because I think I made him better, and he made me better. I think we taught each other values and relationships and all the “knowing” part of the three parts of a professional. BM: Um-hmm. Which two are the essence of a mentorship and relationship. JK: Yeah, sure it is. BM: You’re both giving and sacrificing and pushing each other. JK: Yeah, yup. Yeah, and I had some people in some individual classes like Speech class I stumbled into at Penn State, where the person really forced me to confront my insecurities and help me – I used to have bladder control problems standing up in front of a group. I came across some good, positive role models as an educator, but for every positive role model as an educator I had ten negative ones; but they taught me something. I mean, that didn’t teach me what to be, but it taught me what I didn’t want to be. And they taught it to me solidly; and I was sure I didn’t want to be like that. So that really helps you decide what you want to be. And there was just a whole bunch of people. I’ve been exposed to a lot of people. My father, in some ways, was a negative role model; but he taught me stuff even by that – in terms of relationships with spouses and children – as well as the positive ones. So I’ve always been blessed by the negative ones. Some of the greatest shocks in my life and disappointments in my life. Well Thad Box, when he was dean, turned me down for a full professor the first time I went up. I mean my full support of my committee and my department head. As a result of that, I turned to the agencies that really needed me in the mid-1980s to put their diverse, professional and gender recruits, in their post-NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act]  culture. And we developed short courses where I was – with all the teaching I did on campus, even when I was teach large classes, I often had more contact hours with 30 and 40 year olds in the Forest Service and BLM, in these one week short courses with people like Jack Thomas. And these people are ready to learn. Whoa! You talk about a charge – and that really made firm in my concept and confidence in this catalyst model of being an educator really was convincing there. Plus, going out on a limb and taking the risks to deal with feelings that were involved and the emotional, spiritual elements of their frustrations and successes allowed me to come back and risk doing that with more confidence back on the class here, when students would laugh or say, “Oh crap, what’s that all about?” Because these 19 year olds don’t have that much context. Sometimes it’s like me giving a terrific lecture on retirement planning to 3rd graders over at Edith Bowen [elementary school on USU campus], you know. No matter how good you do it, I mean they just don’t care! They’re not ready for that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  24   �But these 25, 32, 40 year old combat biologists who weren’t being very successful, and getting beat up in the agency and often weren’t taking responsibility – talk about a miracle worker in a week. I mean, we had people come unglued, I mean that just had to really reevaluate their whole context of who they were and what they were doing. Because they were behaving as these kind of Robin Hoods out there, and they weren’t very affective; and they were alienating the community and the resources that they gave a damn about weren’t being adequately protected (as they could and should be). Plus, they were working themselves out of stomach linings, and marriages, and everything. I mean they really needed to reconsider their life as a person and a professional, and as a change agent within the Forest Service. Most of them, of course, didn’t see themselves as change agents, didn’t want to be change agents, didn’t study to be change agents; they wanted to do it, didn’t know how to do it. But you know, NEPA put them there to be change agents, I mean geez! And NEPA put them in there to change the power relationship within the Forest Service. And most of them didn’t think they were into power – which they all were, they were just in the closet, even to themselves. Of course power is your ability to change the world, change things; that’s what power is. And most biologists and these specialists think that power is something that capitalists and generals and people that they don’t admire and care about are in to, like the Forest Supervisor. But just intellectually, and emotionally, and relationship wise to confront them, that was hugely important to me because it made me work hard. And these 30 and 45 year old, frustrated, very powerful, intellectual, caring, romantic, idealistic, hard-working people – they did not tolerate bullshit for long, you know. They would come right at you. And so you had to be relevant and you had to be true. I mean you had to be true and honest with them, even though initially they would rebel against it and didn’t like it. And I was; and the team I put together was. You know I just threw away the plaque that the Forest Service gave me for doing that – put it in the trash can. You know, it’s just a piece of wood and brass. But you know [inaudible], I’ve got the memories. BM: Right. JK: But kids aren’t going to experience it. It was signed by – Max Peterson signed it. Anyhow, I’ve always seen myself as a change agent and a revolutionary, but I’ve done it indirectly, like planting trees and things. I plant seeds and stand back and watch them grow. But that was really powerful. You could see impact and people would, you know, tell you how you changed their life. But the only requirement was we wouldn’t take anybody into that short course unless they had worked for a year (or preferably three). We wanted them to really be frustrated and be experienced and have context, and be ready to take ownership for their successes and their failure and frustrations. And it did. It worked, it worked and it was great. And it allowed me to come back and teach in a different way on campus. And even 19 year olds, that I wouldn’t have had the courage to do, given the criticism and lack of respect for Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  25   �that from my colleagues. And it annoyed a lot of the undergraduates. If I show you my bio, you know, my true bio – I describe myself as “Coyote the Trickster.” And my students know that. Three or four times in a lecture I’ll say, “Okay, I’m going to be playing Coyote with you.” Which means it’s not on the exam and I’m going to be confrontive and I’m going to be playful, and I’m going to be flipping things on them. I’m going to flip them; I’ll lead them down a path and wham! I’ll t-bone them with this idea, without airbags and they know it. So I often tell them, “Hold on to your seat now, I’m going to play Coyote with you.” BM: [Laughing] JK: And so I think that’s really important. I think one of the most important things you can give people in an era of complexity and change (like our world is), is haunting metaphors. Never let them be comfortable with what they know – which was the absolute opposite the way I was educated, you know. This is it, this is truth, and it’s going to stay that way forever, and it’s on the exam. But to give them haunting, relevant metaphors I think is great. And one of the reasons when I think back I don’t see any critical mentors, most of the things that broke me free to think were often novels and experiences in my past that haunted me. BM: Name some novels. JK: Oh, god! Everything from The Heart of Darkness to plays like Ibsen’s play An Enemy of the People. I mean things that were really haunting. Well actually, Miller’s re-writing (or getting ready for the stage) of Ibsen’s Enemy of the People is a lot easier: it’s like Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov without the second coming part; or Bernard Shaw’s Superman without when they go to Hades. All of those things haunted me and I think about them over and over again. And all of a sudden the relevance to me and my profession just leap out at me. So I’ve got a lot of kindred spirits that are dead and some that are alive as well. And I think that’s critical for a professional. And to feel that you can speak to the dead and the dead can speak to you, I think is a powerful, spiritual connection; and humbling. So I always was a reader and still am. But good novels – I’m looking forward to reading everything Joseph Conrad wrote. Lord Jim is a perfect example of a romantic, written beautifully by a person who English wasn’t his first language: he was Polish. And he did Heart of Darkness, which is – ah! You never recover from reading that little book. Have you ever read The Heart of Darkness? BM: I haven’t. JK: Joseph Conrad. BM: Hm-mm. JK: You’ll never get over it. Apocalypse Now [film] was based on that and actually the making of Apocalypse Now,  if you’re a movie person, rent it. It’s called “The Heart of Darkness” [Hearts of Darkness: a Filmmaker's Apocalypse].  Coppola’s wife put it together while they were making it. The making of the film – they were all drugged and in that tropical Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  26   �rainforest. It’s no wonder that creepy, haunting, operatic movie came out. And it is operatic: full of tragedy, and ambiguity, and uncertainty, and blurry edges. It’s an impressionist piece rather than, you know, an etching. So those things really affected the way I think and feel. BM: How are you thinking on the eve of your retirement? JK: Well, you know, it’s just something that’s always been in my job description. I knew it was coming, I’m glad I lived long enough to do it and I still have some health and opportunity ahead of me. And I’m focusing mostly on being. When we go down to the ranch, we just get absorbed by that place. It owns us as much as we own it. And Kathy and I like each other’s company and we’ve been nomads with all of our sabbaticals. And so we trust our ability to get along together and manage and live in a place and live well. We’ve always done that. So we’re much less uncertain than some of our colleagues are. And people keep asking us what I’m going to do. And that’s just the wrong question, you know. I’m focusing on being. I’ve been doing a lot, and I’ve accomplished a lot. But just being is different than that. And so often the tragedy of retirement is so many people have their whole self-identity and life built around “doing” that they don’t know how to “be.” And once you do that, take away the doing that they’re comfortable with, their lives fall apart. So we’ve got a beautiful place to go be. And after almost 50 years of marriage we still like waking up together, so that’s important too. BM: Um-hmm, it is. JK: And that’s the most annoying question I get asked in my life is, “What do you do down there?” Well, they’re already off on the wrong footstep if that’s the way they frame the verb, frame the question! BM: [Laughing] Right, right. JK: A lot of times I’ll make up stuff just to give them an answer they’re comfortable with. Because when you start talking about being together, after three minutes their eyes glass over; they just don’t get it or they’re not interested. “What? You sit in bed for two hours and drink coffee and tea and talk?” “Yeah.” BM: Well having lost the art of relaxation and just that chance to just – JK: Yeah. Well the land will absorb you, that’s part of the relationship: you’ve got to let the land talk to you as much as you talk to it. And I don’t carry a weapon around anymore when I go out in the woods. And when I see deer – I remember the first time I saw a big buck when I watched it. And after watching it disappear, realize for the first time ever I didn’t have a cross-hair on my pupil. You know, I was always watching the deer where I would shoot it. BM: Sure. JK: I was focusing exactly on that spot. Even when I had no intention of shooting it and had no means to, or never mind the desire. So that was kind of liberating. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  27   �BM: So one of the questions on this long list of questions that is here – JK: We can’t go too much longer. BM: Oh my goodness! Yeah. JK: Because it’s 3:20 already. BM: Yeah, okay. Let’s finish this side of the tape and then we’ll stop for now, or stop for this afternoon. You know, in looking at – this is just so rich with relationships with people, with students, with colleagues, with mentors or people who you admire that aren’t even alive or maybe you’ve never met. You know, part of this project is looking at that relationship with the place called Logan Canyon (right out here). JK: Um-hmm. BM: And I wonder if you would just share a few of those memories before we sign off for today. JK: With Logan Canyon? BM: Um-hmm. JK: The first relationship I have with Logan Canyon was that surprising afternoon I drove through here. Tired and boy, it just woke me right up. I never forgot it, and I was just astounded. Again, any kind of satisfaction or response to any kind of event is heavily influenced by our expectations. And as I qualify that, my expectations were so low, the shock was magnified. BM: You mentioned sage brush, and – JK: Yeah. I mean I was really impressed with Crater Lake, but I kind of knew it was going to be spectacular. BM: Right. JK: Still took my breath away when I first looked at it. But reading the diary of Pinchot’s front man who went up here in 1895 – what was his name? Copies of his diaries are in the Special Collections. Have you read them? BM: Uh, no. JK: Shame on you! You have got to read that! In fact, there’s one great section he says, he’s up there and he says, “There’s no trees of value up on the mountain, it’s just all aspen.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  28   �BM: Oh! JK: Now we’re trying to get it back and worried about aspen coming back. Oh man! I used to have that as part of my Principles of Forestry course. And he’s got articles written about it, and people have written – and the Special Collections librarian is a really neat guy. BM: Is that Brad? JK: Brad, yeah. BM: Um-hmm. JK: He’ll know who I’m talking about. BM: Okay. JK: He was working for the Forest Service, he was looking at this public land before it became National Forest; you read his description of Logan too on a weekend, it’s kind of cool. He wasn’t from the local culture. But people like that – I never liked history in high school, but it was never about people and relationships: it was about dates, and deaths, and wars and stuff like that. So you know, that’s a wonderful opportunity to walk in his footprints up through this canyon that looked a bit like “All Quiet on the Western Front.” It had all been lawned off and grazed. It literally looked more beat up than it does now. And I bet you Thad Box said that when he first saw Logan Canyon about 20 years before I did. You said you were interviewing Thad. You know, you look up there now and it’s probably in better much ecological condition than it was 100 years ago. BM: Um-hmm. JK: I first started just fishing it. But we’d take the kids up there; we’d go cross-country skiing. We’d use Green Canyon and we’d go up here and ski after school, on real quick day trips after work was done. We’d tube down it – the canal comes right out at the back of our property. We’d tube down it in the summer 50 times – day and night. Sometimes 11 o’clock at night you’d come back, or 10 o’clock at night you’d come back from a party and the kids would be watching television; it would be a full moon and it would be July and they’d say, “Let’s go tubing!” “Oh man! Just came back from a party, it’s been a tough. . .” “Come on Dad!” “Oh, what the hell!” And up we’d go. Kathy would drop us off. BM: [Laughing] And you’d come down in the dark? JK: Oh yeah. But you know the dark here is so light. From back east, I never could understand how nocturnal animals made it. Out west, you could see – I could be a nocturnal predator, damn near, most of the days of the month! But mostly it was fishing, and cross-country skiing it. We would go up to Bear Lake and come over and we’d come back down Mink Creek, come back down, you know, down through the next – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  29   �BM: Emigration Canyon? JK: Emigration Canyon, yup. BM: Yup. JK: That’s a wonderful loop. We’d do that every season. And my most intimate relationship with the canyon in a way, was when I was the first person to run summer camp after the originals: Ted Daniels and Ray Moore ran it all through World War, you know, through the ‘30s and World War II. And I took it over from them in, probably about 1970 maybe, something like that. And I was the first, you know, guy to do that. I mean the first person to do that; just when women were starting to come in up there. And I’d ride my motorcycle – [Stop and start recording.] [Tape 2 of 3: B] BM: Tape 2, side 2 and we’re continuing with Logan Canyon. You’re on your motorcycle. JK: Well, you know, just driving up through there on a motorcycle at 6 o’clock in the morning. So you’d get up, you’d eat and finish eating breakfast by 7:30 so I could get some leftover eggs and a cup of coffee by the time I got up there. Early in the morning, quiet, nothing there – ah! It was gorgeous with a motorcycle. But you know, most of my memories of course with summer camp are running that old facility and dealing with young people and all the things that went with it. BM: Like what? JK: Oh, you know, just feeding them and manage them, and dealing with the issues. You know the first year I was in charge of it – they always allowed dogs up there. We stopped that about the second year I was in charge of that because the kids were less responsible with everything, including their pets. And one of the first Forestry students had became pregnant and had a baby without a husband here, and she came to me and said, “I’d like to come to summer camp.” And I said, “Well sure, you have to.” And she said, “But I don’t have a babysitter and I’m breastfeeding my child. Could I bring my baby to camp?” And in those things you should go check with the department head and go check with the dean I guess. But it was just a sense of justice that just hit me, from mostly reading and other things. And of course being raised as a shanny Irishman too, we always focused on justice and we were treated unfairly, you know. But anyhow, it occurred to me – I was going to go check with the leadership – and I thought, “Wait a minute. If we allow people to bring dogs there, how could we ever say ‘No?’ I mean I don’t have to go listen to these people. And the fact that Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  30   �they told me to qualify it or say ‘No.’ I resented and resisted. And they might tell me that and I’d have to enforce that stupid decision.” So I said, “Certainly you can do that.” Well, when the word got out, everyone was you know, upset. And even some of the students, well. That baby was passed around and in the first week it didn’t know who it’s parent was, you know. It was part of the group. When she had to do stuff there was always a willing hand to put that little baby in their backpack or underneath their jacket. We’d take it out in the snow and everything. And it really had an influence on the culture, as did women. BM: How so? JK: Well, I mean it made us more human. When male cultures dominated, there was always a goat. I mean males I think were so insecure they had to put a benchmark, like a brass bench marker to know what the elevation was, so they could feel taller. And with the women up there – I remember, this was the first year – I could see the goat that they picked out within a day or two. And I mentioned it – there were three very powerful women there – and I mentioned it and I was going to have to intervene. And one of them, God bless her (and I can’t remember her name) – when one of the alpha males was putting this kid down, she said, “What needs are being fulfilled when you put another human being down like that? When you hurt another person, how does that make you feel good?” “Well, I’m not hurting him” [Inaudible] You little punk, you know, you little shit. “Yeah, yeah I am.” “Ah, I’m not really. Well I don’t really mean to hurt him.” She just – and then he got red and flustered. And he made such a fool of himself that [snap], the sport was off! BM: Yeah. JK: I mean that really, that really hit me. And I just looked at her and she looked at me, and I had such respect for that woman. And by having a baby there and I remember all the concern when we were going to bring women up to camp. You know, there was, “Oh! How are we going to pee in the woods together?” Crap, you know that stuff! BM: [Laughing] JK: You know it was so absurd to have a bunch of PhDs sitting around the damn table, talking about such irrelevant, peripheral rubbish! “Well we won’t get to tell jokes together. What if we’ve got to fart around girls?” You know that kind of a thing. [Laughing] This was really cute, you’ll appreciate this. And I don’t even mind if it’s on tape. We got there and we had a huge snow storm. In fact, you can still see mature aspen trees that bent over from getting about 16 inches of wet snow. And this was in the quarter system, so this would have been about the 10th of June. It was huge! And most of the young people didn’t bring adequate footwear. So it was a serious storm and all the trees were bent over. And we couldn’t even drive out – you know we’re not that far off the highway. The highway crews weren’t ready for it, everything was shut down. We’re eating breakfast and they’re wading through snow (this is the first week of class), “Well, we’re not going to go out are we Prof?” “Certainly we are! We’ve got everyday scheduled, you’re going out. What do you think is Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  31   �going to happen when you’re working in the field? Certainly you’re going to do that.” “Well, we don’t have shoes.” You know, I had more wool socks, I think, then anybody. So we started sharing socks. We took all the bread out and used bread bags. I said, “You put that underneath your sneakers. You mean you came up here without boots? You know, I’m sorry. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for you. We’re not going to put you where your life’s at risk, and we’re not going to let your feet freeze off, but they’re going to be bloody cold. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that.” “Well, you were such a nice guy in Principles class.” “Well, this is a different learning experience.” So all of that. And about two or three days later when we had a chance to go down and get boots, there was still snow as we’re going up to do our first day of cruising. And the guys were trying to tell jokes and were on the edge and with caution. And it was awkward, it was kind of cute. And walking up through the snow – we drove in open trucks then. So we drive up and someone was telling jokes (I don’t remember that part). But I remember it was within the first week or ten days and they were trying to learn how to deal with women colleagues (as we were) with women students. And we’re walking up deep in snow, and one of the women tripped up in the front and said, “How is getting screwed by a Forester like spring snow?” And everyone freezes, and then no comment. She said, “Well you can always count on it being sloppy, but you never know how many inches you get, or how long it’s going to last!” BM: [Laughing] JK: Well, I went crazy. I just started laughing, my knees buckled. The guys thought they had to laugh – I mean that really hit them where it hurt. [Laughing] The guys thought they had to laugh, but it sounded like rusty plumbing. You can hear them all going [imitates forced laughter]. They weren’t having fun at all. And I just laughed. And then I felt badly because, you know I was embarrassing the guys too much. But after that – I mean all the ice got broken, you know. And it just made better people out of everybody. And a lot of the stereotypical bullshit got knocked, you know, which was a huge learning experience for everybody. But it was exactly the learning experience they needed to go work in a post-NEPA culture in the agencies. And most of all professors weren’t getting that education; they were stuck in the old, traditional molds. And they didn’t expose themselves to the agencies. By me being turned down as a full professor, my reference group shifted. Where what the chief of the Forest Service and a half a dozen Forest Supervisors I respected, or a colleague that I was teaching short courses with (like Jack Ward Thomas) – what they thought of Jim Kennedy as a person, professional meant so much more than Thad Box (or even my department head) thought. And so that really liberated me from this place, where I could do what I wanted to do for better reasons. BM: Um-hmm. JK: And it was about that time when I started to recognize the validity and empowerment of the puppet model, you know. I never liked people calling me “puppets” for reading the Bible, or Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  32   �calling me a “sheep” you know. I was anything but a “sheep,” damn it. And a “puppet?” No, by god, I was in charge! Nobody was a puppet master to me. But when Thad really messed up my life for a couple of weeks after he rejected me as a full professor, I was obviously a puppet and he had strings. And my only way of dealing with that was to let go of the damn things. You know, the only way a puppet master has any control over you is you hold on to the other end of the string. You let go of the string, whew! You know, he’s just flipping a piece of string in space, which isn’t very satisfying to puppet masters. And so I decided I was a puppet and a lot of strings were up there, and too many of them I was holding on to and I didn’t have to do that. But I still recognized I needed respect, and I still recognized I needed self-respect. But I just went other places to gain that, more than I did in the past. So I became much more annoyingly independent of this group, than I had my first 20 years here. But it allowed me to go into the agencies and really do some powerful work and pivotal work. You know, you have an impact on a student you’ve got to wait a long time. When you have an impact on a frustrated professional, six years in the Forest Service (and half of them were women), you know you can see an immediate response. And a lot of the reasons the women were having trouble was they were blaming too much of their frustration and their failure on their gender. Which, you know, wasn’t necessarily it at all. I didn’t fit into the Forest Service as an early professional. And if I was a woman I’d have used that to blame too. I’m sure I would have. But having them consider that maybe the reasons they’re not fitting in and not being effective as a role model, and being perceived as an ugly American in a foreign culture like the Forest Service – as they would be if they were in Zambia – behaving like a goddess that knew what was good for wildlife and was going to bulldoze over anyone that she could to do god’s work, and do it right and get all the credit herself. And that just may be why you’re failing. It’s just the way you’re trying to execute; and the image you need to make yourself feel comfortable as a rebel, as someone that confronts people. And when people don’t respond to you, it’s obviously because they don’t care or know enough to be as good as you, you know. Which is a great escape clause – then you don’t have to deal with your consequences (which isn’t very mature and very effective in the long term). All sorts of issues like that we had to deal with. Which were hard to say, and really hard to receive. But boy, I’ll tell you, unlike teaching undergraduates – you always got contact. And I used to fear as a young educator, negative contact with me: anger, rejection, fury. I did not seek that out, but that’s contact. That’s intimacy. And unlike the students sleeping in class, or not showing up, or looking up at the ceiling, or not getting it – just taking notes just to get a grade. And so I no longer felt fear of that. Because in order to do your job in a week with these frustrated, inter-disciplinary professionals, you had to make contact quickly. And they were so primed you could hardly avoid it even if you wanted to. And some of the people that we first brought in tried to avoid it because they didn’t know how they could handle that, they didn’t want to disturb people. But by Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, even the tougher ones just often came around to take personal responsibility for what they were doing; much more so than they were. And to be more forgiving of themselves, as well as the system, and not be blaming – exploiting blame rather than keeping it where it belongs. And Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  33   �even if it doesn’t belong with you, even if you’re treated shabbily – like you could probably consider you were with what you’ve put into environmental education with your job. The only way you can empower yourself is your response to that. BM: Um-hmm. JK: The decision has been made, regardless of the jerk or the situation. The only way you can come out of that whole and more whole, is to decide on your best responses to that. To keep you going and to be the person and professional you want to be. BM: Um-hmm. And it makes you reach further. It makes you reach further than what you think you have. I’m sure the students felt the same way with forestry camp too. That you know, we’re being embarrassed here but it makes you look inside and say, “What do I have and how do I respond to this? And how do I be the better person?” That metaphor of the puppet strings – that’s perfect. We just hang on to those and – JK: Yeah, it’s amazing, especially when you look at the data. For example, we were getting – in those days inflation was 5%. If you did well, everybody got a 2% raise. Then you had 1% to divide up for performance, which usually came out to maybe another 2-3% more salary a year. God! Even if you’re in the money, that’s such chicken feed. When I was being a consultant, I was making three times as much as a raise in a week; which was really helpful financially because both of our kids didn’t stay in Utah. One was at Whitman College (which was really expensive) and one was at Georgetown. So it helped us put both kids through really expensive schools. And that really was a test for me, as a human being as well as a professional, to deal with those very human problems and not pander to them; to just be tough love. But they always knew that we cared about them and we cared about the Forest Service. You know, Jack was part of the Forest Service and I, in my heart, never left the Forest Service and never left the National Forest (which I cherish more than the agency that’s the steward in this point in time). So that failure was really one of the best blessings I ever had. Now, as it worked out Thad took a retirement buyout, Joe Chapman became our dean and he was on my committee who recommended that I be a full professor. So the first months of his reign, he came and said, “I want you to go up for full professor.” And this was a year after I was turned down.” I said, “I’m too busy. Besides, you know what Joe? I don’t give a damn about it that much.” [Laughing] “I don’t care if I ever have a full professor.” You know, in those days you never got a raise for it. There was no money. And the year that I became a full professor, there were no raises at the university – so I got zero! In fact, I said, “I’m going to turn it down and go for it again next year.” “You can’t do that. Once they give it to you that’s it!” But anyhow, I mean all that stuff was really important at the time, but it’s like being stood up for the Junior Prom: at the time it’s really a serious issue! [Laughing] But you know, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  34   �BM: within a few months or a few years it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. And now it’s just kind of funny. Yeah. Well they say, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” JK: Yeah, that’s Nietzsche. That can be taken too much. BM: Right, right. JK: Yeah, and everything that Nietzsche says I take with a grain of – I always take with qualifications. He was twisted in a way; real bright, brilliant. Anyhow, that’s some of my summer camp stories and these young professionals. Plus the other thing (issues) is just dealing with if they were going to be drinking and managing damage control. You know? “I don’t want anybody driving! I am serious! I’ll be all over you if I find out a bunch of you went out, you know, got half drunk here and then went up without a designated driver. I’ll be the damn designated driver, but I do not – do you understand that? I mean I’m going to be in your face, I’m going to beat you over the head with a stick when you’re hung over! I am never going to trust you again, do you got that?” I mean I was just really clear. [Laughing] So that the kind of stuff that you just did not want tragedy. And it could easily happen with that much youth, testosterone and death machines around. But once they got that, and it was legitimate, they knew that was also an expression of caring. Okay, I’ll do a little bit more of this some time this week, but my voice is running out on me. BM: We’ll stop for today. JK: It’s the allergies too. BM: Thank you so much. JK: Do you often have to break in these interviews? BM: No, not too often. Okay, so we’re going to finish your interview today with the first part of Jim Kennedy. We’ll come back later on this week. Thank you, Jim, for meeting with us. [End tape 2: B; Begin Tape 3: A] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  35   �BM: Okay, we’re here with Jim Kennedy. We’re doing our second day of our interview on Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project. I’m Barbara Middleton and it is Tuesday, May 5th. We’re here again on the campus of Utah State University. Continuing onto tape 3, side 1. Jim. JK: Okay. I guess we’re starting with religion and spirituality, although I never separated religion and spirituality early in life. I was raised in a very, very religious family. And I’m still God haunted. And probably if I had to classify myself as anything I’m a “Jack Catholic.” And that’s out of some good experiences I had. I consider all religions human creations, with people with feet of clay: both those who create it and those who continue it. And so I never ask for perfection in a religion of anyone I knew – my neighbors or myself. My grandmother and my mother in my parochial school years had an influence on me. In terms of my relationship to the land, a lot of the religion training I got in the classroom, and being required to go to confession once a week when you were seven years old (and you almost had to make up sins just to have an interesting conversation with the priest). Those were kind of rituals and a lot of times I couldn’t find spirituality there. Yet, I could come out of Mass in the spring and hear honeybees up in a fresh, blooming apple tree and just take off my good clothes and scamper up there and lay in the branches covered with white and pink and odors and bees and sunlight – and you know you just melt all the barriers on your heart and in your mind. And you could become part of something much bigger and much more wonderful than yourself. So in some ways, searching for spirituality and religion, and often being disappointed (although not always, but when I was younger, pretty much most of the time), it had me look elsewhere for spirituality. And I usually almost always found it in nature and solitude usually – not activity. And out in nature was one of the few places I could slow down and was captured and interested enough with my ADHD qualities, to find spirituality there. My first considerations as professions, as a young boy in Philadelphia, were three Ps. They were to be: a policeman, a politician or priest. And I had good role models in all of them; good, honest, caring people who had a sense of social service and a sense of self bigger than who they were, and sense of purpose. So I never had any bad run-ins with any negative role models in those areas. More with teachers and neighbors and people like that. And I also stay in my current religion, mainly out of a sense of loyalty. I’m still a Democrat, I’m still a Catholic, but I’m not a baby boomer. My two brothers and my sisters are baby boomers; they’ve all become Episcopalians and Republicans and have become embarrassing wealthy – seriously wealthy. I’m talking tens of millions of dollars. We were all upwardly mobile I guess, and climbing. I just never wanted the traditional – all the professions I really (other than my initial kind of pressure to consider being a dentist), I never was attracted to status or money or fancy cars or fancy clothes or power – in a sense of power in an organization. I wanted power to change the world when it came to the way we used and abused the land. And I wanted some power and influence over my own life too. I wanted to be, what you call today, empowered. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  36   �But it saddens me that my siblings have betrayed their history. And I don’t know what they’re going to, but I’m certainly not going to turn my back on a religion that my ancestors have fought and died for for hundreds of years. To do a makeover on myself, or be more presentable to my peer group I’m trying to impress. And you know, I wouldn’t change my political party either. My grandfather had scars all over his body from being beaten with bicycle chains with fish hooks in them when he was a labor union organizer. And so that also ties with my orientation with policy. Although I worked at the policy level, being a special assistant to the director of the BLM, and being very close friends and respected by a couple of the Forest Service chiefs – I never was comfortable or impressed or felt in place on top of Mount Olympus in Washington, or at the regional level in Portland, or down in Ogden with the Forest Service. I always liked being with the working class, you know. The foresters, the wildlife biologists, the technicians; they’ve always been my identification group, my peer group. That’s where life and interest in action occurred. So if anything, I switched from being an economist to someone interested in organizational dynamics, organizational behavior, organizational change. Although, you can’t put that on your letter head; no one gets it. You know, if you say, “administration,” that immediately puts you down with the secretaries. I don’t mind being there with status, but it’s just plum inaccurate. So I always would put “policy” there because I didn’t – it would just keep them from asking me embarrassing, annoying questions. And “policy and economics” – people would salute that and just let you be yourself. BM: So at the time you’re talking about, with the BLM, again – give us the date. JK: That was in the first Clinton administration. BM: Okay. JK: I think it was – I’ll have to check for sure. But I know it was the year before the Republican takeover of Congress. When that happened, the BLM was so rattled. And ironically, the Congressman Hansen was the new head of the Natural Resources Committee in the House. And he and I got along okay; I mean I liked him as a person. I would have even been happy to have him as a grandfather. As a policy person values – his views on our values, how we should think about the value and manage of public lands was very much opposed to mine. But Mike Dombeck, the director of the BLM then, asked me to please stay on a year. So like a baseball player or something, USU let them buy out my contract and kept me there to pitch hit for them. Mainly because I was trustworthy and Jack Ward Thomas and Mike Dombeck liked and respected me, and I could run back and forth between Interior and the Ag building and we could cut a lot of deals, and they could do it with confidence. They could come up with an agreement, and they’d just turn to me and whoever was representing the Forest Service and said, “Well we’ll let Kennedy and Barb, you know, work out the details.” And you and I, for example, would get together and work out a memo. I never tried to get a penny for them for research or anything special, and they knew that. So they knew I wasn’t trying to get into their pocket or exploit the influence and friendship we had together. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  37   �But even doing that with the BLM, a lot of times I was out in the field doing stuff, if I could do it. I mean I would look for reasons to get out and work with universities that were historic, black colleges they were working in partnerships with to try to diversify their culture, issues. BM: In the natural resources area? JK: Yeah. BM: Okay. JK: Well, yeah. But they were geology, but even engineers (any skills the Forest Service could use) public affairs, for example. It’s much easier to find an African-American interested in public affairs in eastern shore Maryland, than one of the traditional black colleges there. Queen Ann: Queen Ann of Maryland or Queen Ann of Virginia? But they were interested in recruiting people and I was an academic and had respect. And so I would go do a lot of work for them in that way, just to keep in touch with what was going on out there. BM: And did you see that change in the time from then until now? JK: Well it was changing then. My immediate supervisor was the assistant director for the BLM – it was a black, woman, wildlife biologist. Really tough as nails, Brooklyn gal, that I loved and respected. And she would cringe at using those words. She was a street fighter; although she had a good heart, but she didn’t like herself very much. She tried to define herself by what she was doing, and that’s pretty hollow. She loved film and didn’t like going out to film by herself as much, or going out to eat afterwards alone – and she was a loner. And my wife was taking care of her father and going up to New Jersey a lot. It was kind of spooky and some people got the wrong idea, but Denise never came across that we’d be involved! [Laughing] And anyway, it would insult the promises we made to people that mattered, but we spent quite a bit of evenings out together having fun and talking about life (as much as she would do that). So yeah, I would live a long time at Utah State University before I work for a black wildlife biologist woman. BM: Right. So in looking in your role; I’m trying to understand that a little bit more so that people that are listening to this get a feel for when you go back to Washington and you are doing some of these special assignments. That sounds fascinating to me to be able to go out and look at the kinds of young people that are coming through the program and encourage people from other diverse cultures, religions, races, whatever; to be able to come to the field. What do you say to them? How do you attract them to something like natural resources? JK: Well, you try to find out number one, if they have a passion about being a professional, or if they’re just in the rank and privileged and other things like that – then they want to be a lawyer, or business person. And usually you can’t capture them because their needs are Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  38   �different and they probably wouldn’t be very good if I did capture them. But people that want to make a difference, that have some pioneering spirit, that have some attachment to the land. But an awful lot of African-Americans see the land as the enemy; that kept them in chains as much as any political, social or cultural stuff. You know, working in the swamps, logging under miserable, dangerous conditions, working in the mills, working in the mines, working in the fields. BM: Yep. JK: I have fond memories about my attachment to the land, but we kind of own some of the land, or a few people that I knew and cared about did own the land; but it was a big difference. And it was always a round-trip ticket: if I didn’t like being abused, or come football season or school, I’d be out of there. And they didn’t have that option. So that was a hard sell. That was really a hard sell with blacks, especially in the southeast. And some of them wanted to get out of urban areas, and you could sell them on that. But I looked for a spark of professionalism and wanting to make a difference. And those who want to entertain a surprising option that they hadn’t really thought about. And a lot of the people I talked to were single moms in those traditional, black colleges. And you could talk about the security that we get and the support that they wouldn’t find in industry. And so I was actively recruiting them, as well as talking to the people who – when I’d leave would hopefully continue or increase that activity. BM: Were there programs actually growing at that time in D.C. with these agencies? JK: Oh yeah. Like Haskell Indian School [Haskell Indian Nations University] in Kansas. And they had some formal, signed partnerships, and some Hispanic schools in New Mexico – heavily populated Hispanic schools. BM: And you were also seeing then, the nature of the culture in Washington changing with the personnel that were hired. You mentioned Denise, the black wildlife biologist. What other kinds of entities within the Forest Service were seeing more diversity? JK: Well, I mean initially it was at the entry level and that was part of the problem. The cultural diversity was gender, ethnic and professional. That’s how I got involved with the wildlife fisheries biologists in the Forest Service because in the ‘70s when they were starting to hire women (well NEPA forced them into hiring professional diversity). Presidential proclamations motivated them to hire gender diversity and ethnic diversity. And often the only jobs that were available then were not more foresters it was all of a sudden they needed to hire a lot of wildlife/fisheries biologists. And so without intention and without recognizing the consequences, they got double whammies: they would hire a black woman or Hispanic woman biologist, and they’d score triple points, like in Scrabble. However, that was three often stress points with a person with triple uniqueness trying to fit into the agency, especially moving the line by being successful on the ground. They were change agents in three ways; and most had the attitudes and skills, or the expectations of that, and they were just thrown into the whirlwind and didn’t know it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  39   �And many of the line officers and their peers wouldn’t have hired a woman, an ethnic or professional diversity, if they weren’t forced to. And NEPA and all those legislations were change agent legislations; they were social experiments. And these poor people didn’t know that they were being dropped into an organization. They thought they were going to go out and count beaver or birds or something and wear hip boots for the ten years and shocking trout. And then when they found threatened and endangered species, their peers would congratulate them for completely changing their professional lives by making it much more complex, and slowing down projects. And they didn’t know how – they didn’t want to do it. They didn’t want to be political; they didn’t want to be change agents. They didn’t have the right table manners to do it; they had lousy expectations. So before I went to Washington, mostly as a carry on for my passion as an educator, I started to look around and the Forest Service (especially line officers at the Forest Supervisors and Regional Forester level) by the mid-late ‘70s were seeing this dropout rate. And these young people were having such conflict fitting in and being effective in the Forest Service; they were like very unsuccessful Peace Corps workers. BM: Stop for one second. I’m concerned about this tape. [Stop and start recording] We’re fine. JK: So I was with a Regional Forester. We used to have a lot of connection. Of course many of the people down in the Ogden Region 4 office were USU grads. So once a year we would have a banquet down in Ogden. (Now this is a quick, 15-20 years ago.) I was down there with a Regional Forester and he was talking about all the new people they were getting: hiring more people with Master’s degrees, having more science in the Forest Service. And he also had been talking about the difficulty it was for them to hire and keep good women and biologists really (many of which came from Utah State University). And I said, “Well you know, you have science, your science has improved. Let’s take recreation for example, when I left you guys you were not applying science to recreation; now you’ve got some of the best recreation researchers on the planet in the Forest Service. You are doing all sorts of things. But you know much more about the hikers in the high Uintas than you know about how and why young people come work for the Forest Service in these new ‘-ologist’, non-traditional positions, how and why they are not effective, how and why they stay or leave.” BM: Um-hmm. JK: I said, “You’re not doing any research on that, it’s a folk art. And so you don’t have a chance until you start finding out how and why that system’s failing. And so don’t tell me you’re scientific there.” And I said, “And really, does it mean you care more about high Uinta hikers than you do your own people?” BM: So what was their response? JK: Well you know, we were having beer and having a lot of fun. And he said, “You know, you’ve got a point there.” And something else came up and I brought it up again, and he Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  40   �turned – one of those serendipitous things – and he turned to his administrative officer and said, “Can you give a couple thousand bucks to Kennedy so he can do some research and we can shut him up?” And he said, “Yeah, I think we could do that.” So I immediately got back and called Region 6 in Oregon (I had a contact there), and said, “How about if we compare foresters with your entry-level, one to three years in permanent positions, your entry-level foresters, range cons, and wildlife biologists, and men and women? Let’s see how and why they’re fitting into the culture.” And it really was that often women wildlife biologists had more trouble because they were biologists than because of their gender; although it’s hard to separate out the two. Wildlife biologists were seen as obstructionists; they were always telling the foresters and the engineers and the range cons what they couldn’t do; why they had to spend more money and more time doing something different, or doing what they normally did a little bit differently, or make 180 degree turn. A lot of the biologists and a group and individual self-image – they call themselves “combat biologists.” The Nez Perce said, “Screw negotiations, go for the throat.” And they had this wolverine with a rabbit by the throat, combat biologist on the Nez Perce. Well that just set up conflict. And so they were having conflict and they were taking no ownership for that. And so I was a forest economist, and not a Forest Service person and not that well known in the agency, so I recruited Jack Ward Thomas. Because he was a highly respected Forest Service professional, very good politically and loved and respected throughout. And we hit it off. And so we developed a one week training session. Well we did the research – I could give you the reprints – which was the only research done in that area that I know of, in natural resources; then or since. And of course it just broke my heart to see some of my best and brightest students come back one, two, or three years after being in the agencies, failing as a person and a professional, and as an employee. Being miserable, being unsuccessful, not really helping the land or their people or future generations, and not taking any ownership for their failure: blaming it all on evil, external forces, men, politics, the damn foresters and engineers. And that just broke my heart. I mean that was worse than watching the land erode. And you can’t have healthy land without healthy people managing it. BM: Right, right. JK: So that’s what really changed my career. And I got involved in studying cultures and the interaction of culture, cultural change and changing power. And so we developed this training course that really ran about 80% of the current entry level; within five years the entry level wildlife/fisheries biologists through that program. And it was known, in some regions, as Peace Corps training for biologists. BM: Did you have a title for that training program? JK: Yeah. It was a formal training program; part of the formal wildlife/fisheries biologist training program, called “Entry Level Training.” BM: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  41   �JK: We usually went out and held it on the sites or among the forests, rather than bringing them to the universities. BM: And most of them were in the Pacific Northwest region? JK: No, all over – eastern regions – BM: Oh, okay. JK: And it went to New Mexico; a couple in Region 4 did come up to Utah State; one in Montana, a couple in Alaska. BM: You know, it’s interesting that you make that comment because I remember in Oregon, when I was there the group that was really being crucified were the archaeologists. JK: Them too. And landscape architects and the soft scientists – those “ologists” that didn’t have any kind of entry level training like that suddenly started showing up at these short courses. As did an awful lot of mid-career biologists that really hadn’t gotten over the pain from the way they were treated in their involvement with the Forest Service. And in some cases some of the people who should have quit and left were those who didn’t. Usually you lose your best and your brightest in the first three years. Those that stay in often stay in and cope in a stoic, bitter way. And sadly they become toxic mentors when we send our summer students out, or young, permanent people or co-op students. You know, because some of these isolated, ineffectual biologists can be interesting characters. They’re like Robin Hood stuck up in the Nez Perce – no one likes them but that’s because no one can handle their vision and truth and devotion to the land. And they’re all dog loyal to the agency, where I care about the land and the birds and birds and the cougars. And you can come with that encased, glorious, victimization image of yourself. And there are always plenty of whining support groups you can get around with alcohol, especially, to help convince you that you really are the pure of heart and the agency and the politics and the stupid locals just don’t appreciate you. And that’s how Peace Corps volunteers become ugly Americans and dysfunctional, and really betray the faith of that position that they’re in Zambia or Uganda. And we use those examples all the time. BM: Hmm. Now was this during a time when the group in the Forest Service (and I don’t know the exact name), but the environmental – JK: Exactly. BM: Employee ethics? JK: The Forest Service for Employee Ethics. Yeah. BM: Yes. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  42   �JK: And the current president and CEO of that is one of our PhD students who never finished, Dave Iverson, from the regional office. Who took all of his coursework at Utah State University – in Ecology at Utah State University. Yeah, that was a splinter group that broke off because of the frustration and anger they had, and sense of betrayal with the Forest Service. A lot of it though was their personal, professional betrayal. Because we never talked about career development; we talk about managing all these precious resources out there and the ecosystem – your career is pretty precious too, and it’s a non-renewable resource if you’re not careful. For example, an awful lot of these people had this image of promotion of the “Cinderella” model: they were going to go out and keep their hands pure of politics, they were never going to kiss anyone’s ass or snuggle up to any line officer; they were just going to work hard, work Sundays, work their ass off, do good work and their Prince Charming was going to come down in a clean truck and pluck them up out of the stream and say, “What can I give you? Come to the mountaintop and pick your career.” And when you put it that way they’d all just kind of look at you. And some people would even start crying. And they say, “That’s stupid!” And not only that, it’s arrogant. Because when you put yourself in that position you set yourself up for a lose/lose position. Because if you’re not picked up by your Prince Charming, it’s not your fault, you’re being pure – you’re being a pure Cinderella or Cinderello (if you’re a male). And the whole fault is in the ignorant, insensitive, bureaucratic, political system. And so not only do you feel betrayed and unappreciated, but there’s no way you can fix it because you won’t get involved. And it’s just this death spiral for people and professionals – it’s a tragedy that Shakespeare would recognize and would make much more poetic than me. But I saw it and it bothered me, and a few other people did too. And so ironically when people like Mike Dombeck and Jack Thomas end up in high power positions, so did a lot of other wildlife biologists. They were so ready (talk about the seed crystal), they were so ready for us – whether they realized it or not, most of them didn’t realize it. And initially they thought we were a setup to bring all these wildlife biologists together for a week at a nice ski resort that wasn’t being used in May; play nice so they would lay down and let the rock trucks roll over them. And they came in with cohesive and ready to – “You just try to teach me something, you just try!” You know, you’d see the body language at the opening night. And normally, when I was younger that would’ve terrified me, I’d had wet my pants. But I learned that was engagement, and what I always seek in a group is engagement. And I get less engagement with undergraduates than I do with anyone. You can’t avoid engagements with serious, involved professionals; they just challenge you. And if you can rise to that challenge, that’s really cool. And again, it really allowed me to come back as a much more confident peer among my other peers (who still have Cinderella models), and often directly and indirectly project that and teach that to their students: don’t get involved in politics, don’t compromise—all of that stuff that’s just dysfunctional. BM: Well and that also follow with then, don’t even come to the table and negotiate; don’t even bring your ideas and don’t feel like you’re part of a team. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  43   �JK: That’s right. BM: So how does that eventually affect the perception of yourself, and your whole role within that agency? JK: Yeah. Well, you become disempowered. BM: Yeah. JK: Bitter. And it’s tragic; it’s a tragedy. We were pretty effective on that, plus we had a lot of fun. We really did. I am more confident that I changed more lives per capita that way than with undergraduates. BM: Um-hmm. Can you recall one of the good arguments that somebody brought to that workshop? I mean it sounds like an incredibly engaging week – like an energy drain too. Whew! JK: Yeah. You could think it through and when you represent it in the Cinderella model and you have Jack Thomas and I doing that, you know, and you get them laughing; and sometimes we’d act it out. You’d get them; you’d play “gotcha” the whole time. But they knew Jack and I really, really cared about them and the future of National Forests, and wanted them to be an effective part of it. We wanted to empower them. And they all considered themselves scientists – and you would show them the numbers – there were a lot of numbers on this to look at the failures. And we’d look at the interviews and the survey research results that I got my studies with the Forest Service. And many of them were part of those studies, and I made sure the results got back to the participants. We were playing coyote, you know. That’s when I first started developing this image of myself in a bio as “Coyote the Trickster,” who I love. That is such a wonderful image and a god. Christianity is so bereft of the power of having an image like that. I mean, actually Peter was always one of my favorite apostles because he was so ADHD and wacko! He wanted to walk on water . . . and what Jesus of Nazareth was just smoking when he saw that guy as a rock! [Looking for files] I’m looking for – I had to change all my files around because they’re kicking me out of this space. And I don’t know where my bios are. Hmm. You keep me going; I want to find those even if I didn’t want to immediately give them to you because I know where in the heck they were. That’s normally where I kept them. Huh. BM: I’m going to stop the tape. [Stop and start recording.] BM: We’re back on. JK: He’s always being caught for his hubris (as the ancient Greeks would call it). Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  44   �BM: This is the Trickster you’re talking about? JK: Yeah, Coyote the Trickster. And we would say to them, “We’re Coyote the Trickster. We’re here to cause you to wonder, to question things. We’re here to annoy you. We’re not here to play nice. We’re going to be confrontative; we’re going to be honest. We get away with this in the short courses because “it will be abundantly clear to you that we really care about you and we want you to succeed and we want you to figure out ways to finesse and to use Judo. To know how the organization works, and rather than Sumo wrestling.” I mean most of these people were the Sumo wrestler model: they were going to squat down and run up against the bureaucracy. All the engineers and foresters; all the damn men were reactionaries and they became road kill. And they’d get up valiantly and wham! [End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B] BM: We are on tape 3 and we are on side 2, continuing with Jim Kennedy. Just talking about Judo versus Sumo wrestlers in how we approach things. JK: Well, you know, all things are a relationship. And your relationship with an organization is huge. And I know this from experience. I don’t know this from self-help books; I mean I’ve been road kill. I’ve acted out against authority. Back in my bedroom bureau I probably have 40 Purple Hearts from serious injuries in combat with bureaucracies. And they always win, you know, especially if you confront them with impatience and arrogance. But that’s how heroes were trained: from the comic books, with our professors, with movies. You know, this is my alternate – I have my bio here – but on the back I said: I have an alternate, more honest and descriptive Jim Kennedy bio sketch. I am Coyote the Trickster. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to doubt, wonder, search, so you and I might be more aware and wondering learners together. I’m not here to teach you to know more or better. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to be a learner and not a knower, and as such I honor your inherent wisdom. As an insecure grad student I didn’t want to be Coyote at this stage in my career. I dreamed of being White Eagle: mature, wise, proud, mighty and unassailable, sailing safely above you and the messiness, complexity and wonder of life, raining truths down to teach you, with neither of us being learners, not much. Happily I failed at that, it never worked for the things I considered worth learning, including myself. I am Coyote the Trickster down here with you and immersed in our own messy, complex, and mysterious world. And as such I honor you, myself and together what we search to learn more about. And you know, I’d give it to them and I’d tell them, like I do my students (I give this to my undergraduate students) and I say, “I’m going to play Coyote with you now.” And they’d relax, they wouldn’t feel the confrontation. And I’d use myself and Jack Thomas, we’d use ourselves [as] examples. We would laugh about it; they’d laugh at me and with me. And all of the sudden you’d feel them, they’d get had. They’d go, “Oh my god! That’s what I’m Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  45   �doing! Oh, that is really dumb; I have to consider changing!” And that’s huge, to get people to do that five or six times in a week. But it was going on with people all around them. I mean people really had “falling off the horse” experiences on the way to Damascus. But they couldn’t do that unless they had gone through the pain and frustration and be ready to change. And they weren’t ready to change fresh out of college. They just didn’t have the life experiences. BM: Right. JK: And so that was the most powerful educator experience I ever had. BM: But you know that comes when you talk about being at the right time to change and having that experience, but also of being of the mentality to be open to change. Like being open to learning and realizing that each one of those is a learning experience, and you know, “What did I learn? Or I’m going to go and repeat this again and again until I finally learn.” JK: Yeah. BM: You know, so it’s recognizing it and also having found that those years on your feet that you recognize the experience contributing. JK: Yeah and we’d use all sorts of metaphors and examples. For example, we said, “Look, in America today you all expected to learn about being an effective bureaucrat with soul and spirit, and a long term resilience on the job. You’re as poorly trained in that as you were in sex. We don’t formally train you in sex in our country it’s on the job experience. And often it’s pretty tragic and high risk, but especially if you don’t have the right attitudes to be an effective on-the-job learner; whether it’s sex or in the bureaucracy.” Most of them don’t realize that that’s their job. When you go to a foreign country – Kathy and I have spent a lot of time in foreign countries or as a Peace Corps worker – you’re going to have to do most of your learning there. But it’s absolutely essential that when you go there that you have functional attitudes and strategies to be an effective on-the-job trainer. We give them neither of that here, other than the ENBS programs, some of them. We just give them science and throw them out in the bureaucracy, usually with the attitude that politics is bad. Many of our students have the same attitudes toward politics my grandmother had about sex, you know, it was very Victorian: you only did it as means to an end, you weren’t supposed to enjoy the process, take a shower afterward, you never talked about it, you didn’t study about it. And so they would only engage in politics if they felt dragged into it; many of them would feel dirty afterwards. I mean the attitudes we have about politics and politicians are the attitudes we had about “dumb blondes” and “niggers” when I was young. It is biased and bigoted and it’s poisonous to our culture. And we can joke about lawyers and politicians now, with the same impunity that you used to be able to joke about “dumb Pollack’s” or “Irishmen” or “dumb blondes” or “black men from the south” or something. You can’t joke about those things anymore, praise god. And so we have a terrible, dysfunctional, black hole in the way we disempower our young people in the education we give them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  46   �And not only that, our professors (but our professors don’t know it), they’re like, in many cases, a bunch of celibate Catholic bishops who are talking to people about sex, you know. They just don’t get it; I mean they have never had the on-job experience. That’s why they are often in universities. And look how bitter and how easily some of our professional colleagues burn out because the bureaucracy doesn’t work in their Cinderella, Robin Hood mythology that’s totally unrealistic and unfounded. They hold to that because they don’t have anything else rational. And they don’t consider that a rational part of their thinking in life. They respond to that emotionally and glandularly: where they use their intellect in a lot of parts of their personal and professional roles (say with professional colleagues here), but they haven’t been aware that there is science out there in this and they shouldn’t figure it out. I mean we were treated the same way when we were trained to be educators as professors. We had no formal training in that, that’s on-the-job the same way we had our sex training. We had some good role models and some bad role models, and we bumble around and try. We don’t monitor it and measure it; we don’t try different learning practices that much. And it’s not an area where we apply our science. I mean the studies that I did on how and why entry-level professionals were succeeding and failing in the Forest Service, you know part of their failure was the poor, dysfunctional way they were educated and role modeled. So we have to take credit for that. BM: So today, if you were working with the Forest Service and you had that job back again, what kinds of training would you recommend? JK: Well to continue what we’re doing. The problem is in all this wanting to get together there was real suspicion about different professional groups going off by themselves, they thought they were becoming clannish and not part of the mainstream and identifying too much with a particular specialty. BM: So what are the different professions? Biology [inaudible] JK: Engineers, foresters, yeah, and watershed, soils people. And so they pretty much – plus that’s expensive: it’s a full week. It’s hands-on; it’s expensive. And many of the training programs have been gutted and reduced and thrown into big groups where they have a lot of motivational people come in, at one extreme, and a lot of agency line officers come in at the other end of the extreme, and talk to them about policy and stuff which is pretty boring. And in terms of life skills and survival skills and really getting in touch with their humanity as well. I mean that was part of it too. We focused a lot on that. And really you have to love yourself to be able to love and care about others. You have to take care of yourself if you are going to have anything left over to care for the land and care for some of your colleagues. And be a person in the agency that is a healer, rather than a slasher or a “salt on the wounds,” or someone who just ignores people and walks on the other side of the road to Damascus when you see someone in a ditch. Because you’ve got your head up in the air, in theory, or you’re doing important things. So someone is having marital problems or is obviously having alcohol addiction problems in the way they’re showing up or not showing up. And just deal with that because that’s good work for groups of people and human beings. So you can’t separate that from being a good biologist or an engineer. You can, but I don’t think it’s functional or healthy or sustainable. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  47   �BM: So when you talk about the difference in training here at Utah State with the College of Natural Resources, we’re separated into Wildland Resources and Watershed, and then we have Environment and Society. JK: Yeah. And the whole core educational program that I worked so hard to pull off, where we were in the vanguard of the world (not just North America), by having core courses and bringing all of our young people together in initial courses and talk to them about the dark side of their professional: myopia and pride and arrogance. And we’ve balkanized, you know. We were Yugoslavia, like Yugoslavia was from the ‘70s through the mid-90s, and now we’ve balkanized just like Yugoslavia. And we have the Serbs and the Croats and the Bosnians, you know. We have the same thing with the hard sciences and the soft sciences. When I really want to confront my colleagues (and I can get away with it as an economist and as male), I talk to them about the erect sciences and the flaccid sciences. BM: [Laughing] JK: Some of them just squirm. But I’m playing Coyote with them; because it’s often at that level and that level of intellectual foundation. It’s at the glandular level: hard science, soft science, social science, true science. Calculus versus college algebra; how you’re not worthy unless you go through that. It’s more sinister than substance in that. But it’s very powerful and it’s a deep undercurrent. BM: Let’s bring it a little bit closer to home then, to Logan Canyon in terms of as someone who is living here and working here, some of the policies that you saw impacting the canyon and some of the activities that were going on here. You also mentioned that you recreated with your family up there. So could we talk a little bit also about some of those special places, and maybe how policy sort of changed those? JK: Sure. Well the biggest policy battles I’ve been involved with Logan Canyon from the early ‘70s has been always the highway; UDOT eventually wanting to put four lanes of concrete up through that place. I think. Maybe, maybe we’ve slowed them down enough – you know that’s one of the last canyons that doesn’t have major highways slashed through it. Most of the other stuff is that with all the times I’ve been on sabbaticals, with all the traveling we’ve done in the summer, I haven’t staked a claim on a watershed or an area where I’ve become a defender of it. I love skiing on Green Canyon and I really respected them closing that off. There used to be four wheel drives and snowmobiles up there all the time. And making it an urban, short day use recreational area for families and everything. To be able to work a fulfilling day and be in cross-country skis twelve minutes after you close the door in your office, and ski to the darkness of the evening and turn around and still see the red glow as you come down; gravity brings you down that canyon. We used to go up there and ski at night a lot; just a wonderful gift for me. Most of the areas that I really used are just that beautiful basin below Third Dam, off to the south. We’d go up towards that glacial circ up there, that beautiful area. I mean that is such a beautiful area! And it’s just so quick and easy to get to. You know, we’d go up to Tony Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  48   �Grove and we’d hike up there and things like that. When I was director of summer camp and staying there at nights, I would run at night up through those old logging roads and dirt roads up behind camp. It was just gorgeous country. Again, I think the land up there is healed up more and it looks better (and probably functioning better) than it did years ago – ten, 20, 30, 50 years ago. BM: And what would you attribute that to? JK: Just less timber harvesting, more controlled wood scrounging, and especially grazing: better grazing management. And really the market system has really cut down on the motivation to graze sheep up there, you just couldn’t make money. Plus the labor costs and scarcity of labor for the shepherds, took care of a lot of battles with the sheep, in a very quiet way that is much more acceptable than political battles in our culture (for better or worse). Listen, why don’t you shut this down a bit. [Stop and start recording.] Well and the context – so much of my responses to your questions on policy and involvement in the Forest Service is ironic, but I’ve had probably the least impact on Region 4 (this region) that I’ve spent almost 40 years in, than the rest of the agency. I’ve spent much more time and have been much more accepted and welcomed into the Region 6 [Pacific Northwest Region] culture; I think they’re more liberal and they’re more mobile. Region 4 is pretty homestead, you know. Folks usually stay within the region and don’t leave. I don’t know. You only have so many places to punch your dance card. My phone would be ringing and I’d be saying, “Yes” to go to Milwaukee and to go to Portland and go to Juneau, and be driving in the snow past Ogden – coming or going – to catch a plane. I’d be thinking, “What are you doing? Are you nuts Kennedy?” As a result, that filled a lot of my needs to do that. And on the weekends often we would go some place, especially after the kids grew up. I didn’t spend that much time involved in Logan Canyon. And with some people, like the high Uintas we used to hike in when the kids were young, to manage my guilt I would just support the high Uintas preservation group with Carter and some of those folks – to be a spokesperson for me. BM: So that was one of the groups you were involved with? JK: Well, yeah initially, when he left the Wilderness Society and started that group. BM: And who is this person? JK: Dick Carter. [See Folk Collection 37: Box 3 & 4] BM: Dick Carter, okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  49   �JK: Yeah. And he was one of my early students so I had a lot of respect for him. He was always an activist, it was in his blood. Some students you just see in the audience and you know that they’re going to be involved up to their elbows in that stuff. I’ve been involved in surveys and I was involved in public meetings and things on their planning, at the request of the district rangers (who I tended to know, but I haven’t known the last two or three). So that’s kind of sad in a way, in my own backyard I’m the least involved and probably the least known. BM: But it’s interesting in the perspective of the fact that it’s not that they’re behind the times here, it’s that the culture is different and they are – how would you say it? They look at it through a different lens? JK: They’re more entrenched, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. But I mean, really they haven’t had the pressures that Oregon and Washington had in so many ways. And the values were less environmentally oriented, so the populace hasn’t had a ground swell as they had in those areas. Now that’s changing, happily. Of course Oregon has so many more people and so much more money, and they needed so many more biologists because they had so much mitigation work to do with all the activity they were doing up in the hills, for better or worse (and often for worse). I spent an awful lot of time in Region 6, was well known in Region 6. And loved going there because it was a different environment, and a different place; and you go to a different city, like Portland. And sometimes Kathy would go with me. I spent a lot of time there. BM: So what was it like to come back here then and watch what was going on here, knowing what you saw in other places, as well as the kind of work that you were doing? JK: Well, I didn’t have the time and energy to mope about it too much. I tend to have faith that things change, and I’m patient. [Laughing] I’ve learned patience. And yet I knew some people and I respected them, and they respected me, but they wouldn’t ask me to be involved as much because I usually would stir up action and excitement. That’s bothersome to some people. Again, I don’t want to sound arrogant about them. Just by fate there were a couple of regional foresters that we had a great personal and professional relationship with. None of them have ever been in this region. Regional foresters trust you as an outsider; they’re always calling you to do things. And it’s the same way with the chiefs, you know. All the really sensitive national studies where we looked at the soul of the Forest Service, I was in charge of. And they never edited me. I mean they just gave me a scalpel and rib separators and said, “Here, we’ll support you. We want you to sample 15-20% of our people and you just crank open their rib cage man, and you poke around in their heart.” They trusted me to do that, and they never were betrayed. BM: And you did that through interview and surveys? JK: Yeah. I was the one that challenged them to look at their values and reward system. The biggest heartburn and conflict at all state, especially the entry-levels of career, is when people’s values are not consistent with the values that Forest Service rewards. And it’s the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  50   �same with the university. I’m not saying it’s not consistent with the values they mouth, the values and their vision statement. What they say at the university or the Forest Service is rewarded, is often much more consistent with what the values young people entering into the profession hold dear and want to be rewarded. The real hypocrisy and the corrosive effect on the agency culture, spirit and respect is when the agency says they reward values that professionals endorse, and then they don’t. They reward other things. And the university is the same hypocrisy, you see. BM: Oh, and I bet it’s true in other industries. JK: Oh yeah, but I think that’s true with most organizations. And it’s true with many families too. “Oh we really care about our children. I really care about my spouse.” But put a pedometer on their ankles or on their brain and their heart and see where their heart and mind and ass spends most of their time. You’ll see that what you see and what you do is often very, very different and hypocritical and dysfunctional in the long term; especially when you don’t recognize or admit it. And so the last study I did for the last kind of Vatican gathering of the council of the Forest Service is – here I’ll show you. I just have to go over here and pull one off. I may even have an extra. Part of my not spending that much time in Logan Canyon, [was] of course [because], for the last 15 years we’ve had a ranch in southern Utah, and every time I want to get in touch with land I run there. I’m not the best person for the last 20-30 years about having an intimacy with Logan Canyon. Most of the joy and thrill and contact I have with that National Forest is just basking in its beauty visually and spiritually in the morning and the evening. And waking up to it or looking out my window or facing a class and walking over to BNR314 and looking at the sun coming up over the mountain after the students thunder out, or the sun setting on it and the snow turning pink. Thinking how blessed I am to live in this valley. So it’s the ambiance, the indirect relationship I have with that. And I’ve hiked up on Mount Logan – I just look up at it and remember that I’ve been there and know what it looks like up there – and can still feel a joy walking over to my 3:30 class Wednesday, my Econ class that’s two hours over in the Business Building. When I go have coffee I always sit at the bar and face out the window. Even if I’m reading the paper, I’m looking over the top of the paper all the time at that mountain. So you know I do cherish it. That’s one of the reasons I’m here and came here. I haven’t had a hands-on relationship with it for quite a while. BM: But there’s also that being able to enjoy it from a distance, and those memories that are a part of it. As well as you know, you think of how does that help regenerate you and just recharge you for the kinds of things that you need to go and do. JK: Oh, it’s a very spiritual relationship. Just as some people walk past a stain-glass window or something, it has all those qualities. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  51   �BM: You wonder if, you know, when you talk about just that simple act of being able to enjoy the canyon from here, and you wonder how many people actually do that. Especially the students – when you think of this incredible setting we’re in and it hits you in the face all the time. JK: Yeah, yeah. BM: And in the changing light of day, you know, highlights the different parts of that mountainside to the east. You know, how many people really think about that? JK: Yeah. Oh in the last two weeks it’s been some of the greenest I’ve ever seen it since 1970. It looks like Ireland; it’s gorgeous! Maybe 10% of the last 30 years the soil has been that saturated with moisture; it is amazing. Plus with the cool spring, we’ve put off the growth spurt until the day length really is long. And man, those plants are like race horses: been delayed in the starting gate for 15 minutes – they can’t wait to get out. And you can just see them grow; you can just hear it almost. BM: The green up is amazing; it just really catches your eye. Ah! Let’s stop for a second. [Stop and start recording.] Okay, we’re back. JK: Now all the research that I did was never funded by the research money – not a dime. It was always out of operating. It was line officers that had problems, had questions; had issues. And they really wanted me to come in. That’s why I could never have many graduate students – they wanted me to come in and be a consultant. And they wanted the answers next week. I mean I’d say, “Over the summer I can find a good grad student, and we’ll study it for two years, we’ll have a publication.” “No way.” That was not their time dimension. They were in a hurry and they had real issues. Now it was sad that I’d hire people that were on campus for six months, or six weeks, to do something and that was grand. But I never developed a cadre of PhD students and things like that because I could never get long-term funding. And these folks kept me so busy doing things I thought were important and were immensely rewarding. The nice thing about that though is you never lamented them not using your results. In fact they over-used them sometimes. They would, you know. I would say, “Wait a minute! This is only two regions, this isn’t a national study.” “No, no, no; let’s put it in place, we’ll start a program!” You know, and you’re around these people that are actionary people – they were so much different than researchers. And their time dimensions, their sense of urgency and often their personal bonding – I mean they didn’t want to lose another woman wildlife biologist. It was too hard to recruit them, and the last one that left broke their heart because she had a lot of potential. And they saw it as a real failure and an accident that they would like to avoid. So that was pretty heady and rewarding. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  52   �I did respect the Forest Service social scientists. Hendee, Stankey  and Lucas were some of the best social scientists on the planet in the area of natural resources. BM: Could you – you’ve got the first name? JK: Hendee, Stankey and Lucas – they were the last names. You’d all know them? [John Hendee, George Stankey & Robert Lucas. ] BM: George Stankey? JK: Yeah. They all came up with the first studies of wilderness areas and boundary waters canoe areas; and the landscape architects in the Forest Service coming up with all the visual management stuff. People in Europe, that’s what they wanted to get from us. I mean they thought they knew all they needed to know about silviculture (and chances are they did), or game management in Germany or New Zealand. In the early 1900s if there were floppy disks, Germany and France could’ve given us floppy disks on how to manage our forests, how to create a National Forest Service, and how to educate our forestry students. We essentially just took that and put it right into our (metaphorically) computers in 1900, and just followed them like a blueprint. But what we gave back to that area of the world and the rest of the world when we started being innovative was NEPA, really. From the ‘60s and ‘70s on, we were ahead of all the rest of the natural resource agencies in the western world and planet. Because the previous ones – this whole machine model of conservation: sustaining the flow of (primarily) commodities – was designed for an industrial state with a large part of the population still being rural. They were able to have that kind of blood and blister relationship with producing commodities. But in a restrained way (and that’s what sustained was – it was a bridle on us race horses or plow horses out there) to manage the land in a way that wouldn’t destroy the long-term productivity. That’s the way the laws and the philosophy always was; but as we became an urban, post-industrial society (and I’ve written extensively on that) there was a different relationship with the land. It was urban and it was much more romantic and idealistic; much less blood and blister. And I have nothing against romanticism – I’m a romantic and I’m going to die one. I’m even romantic about death. The Danish Forest Service, they were still stuck in a rural, industrial model of society’s relationship with their natural resources. And society just was not there. And we thought it was society’s problem. Look at all the effort Weyerhaeuser invested to try to get the public to love clear cuts, you know. No way. And maybe we can get people to love root canals. I mean they just don’t like it, you know. And it looks bloody ugly; and don’t tell me it’s going to look good in 50 years! I’m already 50 and I’m not going to be here! And that’s not renewable as far as I’m concerned, buster. And in many ways it’s always been the case that the public are libertarians and foresters and wildlife/fisheries biologists, we’ve always been communists. We look at the stand, and the population, and the long-term. And that’s a very impersonal, abstract relationship where people don’t cut that tree or those trees along that stream in a very libertarian way. And we Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  53   �respond like communists, “You’ve got to think in the long term, lady. Don’t get emotional. You know this has a purpose; we’re going to plant it back. It’s all going to be back and you’ve got to focus on the masses, not the individual. And don’t be bleeding heart about it; you’ve got to be a bit abstract.” That’s the argument I used to have with my classmates at Penn State in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And so there’s a built in conflict between the public and natural resource managers. We are, by our nature and by what society really expects of us, dealing with the long-term productivity and sustainability of systems to look at it in a larger, more abstract way. Some people think it’s impersonal, where we love the system. You know, Stalin would probably say he loved the masses of Russians, as he was killing about 5% of the population every decade. It just didn’t fit into his image. It had to be done to cull the stand, to get rid of the weed trees. You know, to manage it for long-term, abstract goals – which sustained yield is, or sustainability is a pretty abstraction too. And it’s a much more organic model. [Stop recording.] [Tape 4 of 4: A] Susan needs to pick up from here and finish the transcript with the last tape I have sent over. Thanks, Barbara Randy Williams: I do not have the fourth tape. Sent email to Barb on 1/7/2011 and again on 7/12/2011 about it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  54   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jim Kennedy interview, 4-5 May 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor at Utah State University), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. The transcript for tape 4 is not included as of 10/10/12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Interviews Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Childhood and youth Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Family Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Career in Forestry Education Trapping--Pennsylvania--Montgomery--Anecdotes Farm life--Pennsylvania--Montgomery Dairy farming--Pennsylvania--Anecdotes Delta Upsilon Fraternity Utah State University. College of Natural Resources--Faculty--Interviews Forestry teachers--Biography College teaching--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Mentoring in education Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes Box, Thadis W. Ecology--Study and teaching United States. Forest Service United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees--Training of Career education Occupational training Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Religion Natural resources--Law and legislation--Utah Multiculturalism Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (Association) Recreation--Utah--Green Canyon (North Logan) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Cache Valley (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Philadelphia (Pensylvania) Pennsylvania Mink Creek (Idaho) Emigration Canyon (Idaho) Mount Logan (Utah) Green Canyon (North Logan, Utah) Idaho Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd6JimKennedy Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 4-5 May 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-05-04 2009-05-05 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/1853497373d1d4843e9aa136dab68917.mp3 27b65a76fabe9258b3dc42c7ce924cb2 https://highway89.org/files/original/618db0fe3620b2b683c89edb9c9d64ff.pdf 4f9cc6b888007ed303d7aee78e8747da PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Ted Kindred Place of Interview: His home in Hyrum, Utah Date of Interview: 13 August 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Darren Edwards Darren Edwards Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Express Scribe Transcription Software Glenda Nesbit Elaine Thatcher, January 2009; Randy Williams (1/13/2011 & 7/13/2011) Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau, his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his local history efforts. Reference: DE: Darren Edwards (Interviewer; USU graduate student) TK: Ted Kindred NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. The interview is broken into five-minute tracks, which are noted in the transcript. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Disk 1, Track 1] DE: This is Darren Edwards. I’m here with Ted Kindred at his home in Hyrum, Utah, for the oral history of Logan Canyon Project. So what’s your full name? TK: What? DE: Your full name. TK: Theodore J. Kindred. DE: And when and where were you born? TK: Kansas City, Missouri, 1918. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  1   �DE: So how did you get from Kansas City to Logan? TK: Oh, I was out here with Thiokol when they first started. I was a management consultant. And, I don’t know. When they first called me to come out here I asked them where it was at and they said Promontory. I said “You’ve got to be kidding.” I said, “There’s nothing out there but sagebrush.” And they said, “No we’re building a big plant out here.” So I came out and I stayed. Been here ever since, this is home. DE: You decided you liked the sagebrush. TK: Oh, I love it here. I didn’t want to stay on the other side of the mountains [Box Elder County]. So I wanted to come over here. And now it’s getting too crowded. DE: So what’s your earliest memory of Logan Canyon? TK: The very earliest is at the mouth of the canyon. It was a two-lane road at that time. And the trees made a tunnel over the canyon there at the mouth. And you drove that way almost to Malibu and Guinavah in that. Of course then when they decided to widen it all the trees came out. No more up there. But, we used to go camping up there and then later up at St. Anne’s. I used to go up there. Monsignor Stock [of the Catholic Church] looked after it [St. Anne’s Retreat when it was] left to them. And he only had a small parish here, and I was one of the few in that. But anyhow he was trying to look after it, and so I sort of took over half of it to look after. And oh, did a lot of repairs and things up there. And then there used to be a tremendous amount of vandalism done up there because, there are all kinds of stories you’ve probably heard and that. But it was basically used as a, we [Catholic Church] called it retreat. But it was a vacation place for the Holy Cross Hospital [in Salt Lake City] and the Benedictine Hospital in Ogden, for them to come up and spend a week or two. But I don’t know. After winter when it was closed up, they [vandals] used to break in and the furniture was getting torn up and burned in the big fireplace and stuff. And I don’t know, maybe you’d like some background of that St. Anne’s. DE: St. Anne’s is the Catholic retreat just up Logan Canyon? Yeah. Background would be great. TK: Well some of the background: That land originally belonged to the Hatch family. And they gave it to the Forest Service for lifetime lease on it. They kept it forever. But Boyd Hatch took over and built, oh, a nice place up there. And I don’t know I don’t believe a whole lot’s known here about him other than the Hatch Room up to the University in the Library. That was donated by them. But he had a partner at the Atlas Corporation: Floyd [Bostwick] Odlum. And he and Floyd, I’ve always said, were the first conglomerate people. They had the RKO Studios and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  2   �Bell & Howell Camera, United Fruit, Bonwit Teller department stores: a whole group of things. But they would bring people in [to the St. Anne’s Retreat, then called Pine Glenn Cove or Hatch's Camp or Forest Hills. It was placed on the national Register of Historic Places on 28 December 2006]. They had a large closed-in porch, screened in. And they’d fly people in from New York and Los Angeles, friends. They had barbeques down by the river. And then on that porch they’d have big name orchestras out of the, like RKO Studios. Bring them in for dances here and things. But [Track 2] anyhow, Boyd was going to build a Tudor mansion in Providence up on the, up where Edgewood Farms is there. And he had a heart attack and died. So all they ever got done was the foundation. [The furnishings for the library for this mansion were donated to Utah State University and are now housed in the Hatch Room in the Libraries’ Special Collection & Archives.] But then, they Hatch and Odlum were both married to sisters: the McQuarrie sisters. [Speaking of St. Anne’s Retreat]: Boyd died. Mary Anne [his wife] gave the lower Hatch part to Monsignor Stock for the church. And later Hortense [McQuarrie] Odlum she’d be up there by herself. She decided there’s no use her coming up there anymore because Floyd had got a divorce and married Jackie Cochran, a jet flying woman, jet flying ace. And so she called and told him [Monsignor Stock] he could have hers, too. So they had the whole thing. But it was a wonderful place. I used to clean out the pool up there, the swimming pool. DE: What were the names again of the people that donated that land? TK: Boyd Hatch and Floyd Odlum. It was actually their wives, Mary Anne and Hortense. DE: Mary Anne and Hortense. TK: Hortense. Uh huh DE: How do you…Do you know how to spell that? TK: HORTENSE I think it is: Hortense. But there’s an interesting thing about that. They were sisters – McQuarrie sisters. And their father died and Boyd’s [Hatch] mother died—Eastman Hatch’s wife; the older one. And they met each other and they got married. That made Boyd and his wife step-brother, step-sisters. It’s interesting, it’s complicated. But anyhow that covers pretty well what that was [history of St. Anne’s Retreat]. They finally, the nuns wouldn’t go up there anymore because there were too many people trying to get in there. And they just didn’t want to be up there bothered at Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  3   �night especially. So anyhow they had it for oh, the kids, needed places to go you know, on that. And it didn’t last very long and they weren’t taking care of it. So the church sold it; got out of it. But anyhow, aside from that the sisters still wanted a place to go. And I had bought a place at Beirdneau; and I let them use that place. They could come up there, small groups of them. It wasn’t big like St. Anne’s. But they’d come up and I’d take vegetables and things up for them to have while they were there. DE: Where was that again? TK: At Beirdneau. DE: OK; Beirdneau. TK: And I don’t know if you ever knew Tom Lyons? [He] taught English here at the [Utah State] University for years. DE: Must have been before my time. TK: Well. Yeah, it was. He lived next door there [at Beirdneau]. They lived there the year round. I don’t know what all you want me to tell about this. But I’ll tell you an incident that I was involved in. They had three little boys. And we had six children, some of them about the ages of those kids. Of course they were up there by themselves so they would come over as soon as they heard the car come up to our place, to have somebody to play with. Well, one time they came over and they were turning handsprings and things. And they asked me if I could do that. And I said, not any more. I said, “I practice yoga.” And they said, “Oh we’ve got an Indian teaching us yoga comes up to the canyon.” I say, “Well, I tell you what, next time I come up I’ll dress, everything on for that. But you got to be quiet when I go.” Well I had a Chautauqua outfit. Years back those traveling operas and things. It was a brocade and velvet outfit, you know; spangles all over it. I don’t know all kinds of stuff. And I had a fez, and I had a pair of turned up boots, or shoes, like the Turks. I had those on [Track 3] and so the kids caught on what I was doing and they had all kinds of garbs to go with me up there. Well, when they got up there, their lands were gone. I and told them there’s no use wasting that. And in the front of our place there’s a bend going around in front of Malibu and Guinavah, just a slight bend. Well, we . . . out on the end of that and it was open. So the wild phlox was all in bloom. And we had our dog Gabby with us and we picked phlox and put in his collar. And the kids had him, we’d go down to the corner, a car came around we’d give them a peace sign and throw phlox out, you know. [Chuckling] Two weeks later there was a rumor going around town that a hippie family moved up Logan Canyon. But it was fun. DE: And you guys were the hippie family? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  4   �TK: Yeah. But anyhow we used the place we had up there; we’d use it the year round. We had a big fireplace in it and we had a wood/coal stove like that. Go up there in the winter and build a fire in the stove and the fireplace, heat it up. The kids would go snowshoeing or sliding up there. And have hot chocolate and things for them to warm up with. But I don’t know. On up the canyon in the early days, we used to cut Christmas trees up at the Sinks. And I’ll never forget that. Our two oldest ones weren’t too old then, that we had. It was quite a lift, must be a half a mile across the land there to get over to the trees. There was about three feet of snow on the ground. I went over, I cut a tree and took, the two older ones wanted to go with me. Well, by the time they got over there they were tired and they wanted to be carried. And I had that Christmas tree and those two kids to get out of there. Well, a friend at that time, Jim Cannon, worked for the Forestry. And he arrived with a snowcat just as I was getting back off of that. And I said, “Why did you have to wait until now to come up?” [Chuckling] He’d have got me out of here. But that’s the only time I ever cut a tree up there. Never went back to get another one. DE: Where was that again? TK: At the Sinks. DE: Okay. TK: That’s, you turn at Beaver to go up and you get about half way up the slope, it was down in the Sinks. All down there, the low part. DE: So just past Beaver in those sinks there? TK: Yeah, uh hum. But you had to go clear across that to the trees. And that’s where they issued permits to cut them. And we used to like to go up to Sunrise Campground, up there and camp. We’d do that a lot. But it’s hard to get into any of those places anymore. There’s everybody wanting in them. DE: Yeah. Now when you say “we” is that you and your family? TK: Yeah. DE: Your kids and wife? TK: Yeah. We did a lot of camping before, well even after we had our summer place up there. We liked to go up the Wind Rivers. But anyhow back to Logan Canyon. It had the most beautiful view [at Sunrise Campground] coming up, looking down on the blue there at Bear Lake from the outpost there. But also I think a place they forget about--there where they turn off to Temple Forks in Logan Canyon there’s a privately owned place right there that looks like oh, a nice brick ranch house built down there with a boat. There’s four acres or something in there. And there Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  5   �had been a juniper place in there they called it Juniper Inn. You’d go up there and eat and things. And it burned down. And it was a long time ago. Anyhow, I inquired about that land up there because they have water rights, everything for it. And at that time the forester, M.J. Roberts, he was looking for it too. Well, I found the guy he was in the army over in Germany. [Track 4] And I contacted him. He wanted $26,000 for that. I wished I bought it now. DE: So did M.J. buy it? TK: M.J. Roberts. That was the Chief Forester at that time. Everybody knows him, he’s been around … DE: So did he end up buying the land? TK: No. DE: No. TK: I wouldn’t tell him who it was [that owned it]. [Chuckles] No, that’s private— they built that ranch house up there on it. And they have water rights and everything for it, on both sides of the river. DE: That’s a good setup. TK: Yeah. It was a good deal. But I don’t know. There’s been such a change in the canyon itself because everybody’s in a hurry to get up to Beaver or Bear Lake in the summer. And even Bear Lake, I remember that. Gad, when Ideal Beach was the place to go, and we used that a lot too on weekends. But I don’t know if you want to cover anything that was that far up. DE: That’s good; whatever you want to talk about with Bear Lake or Beaver or any of that. TK: Well I can tell you a couple of good stories about it. My son was in the Civil Air Patrol. And often in the summer they would sponsor members coming in from other countries here, spend a week or two. And one year they had boys from France. And we had them up the canyon; they used the cabin up there to stay in. But I wanted to take them up to Paris, Idaho. [Chuckles] And we went up there just to show them the town. As we came back the north beach was crowded, it was on Sunday; people all over the beach. And they saw it. And they wanted to know if we could go in there, turn in there. They wanted to, the minute we turned in there they stripped clothes down, they were going swimming. And in those jockey shorts, it, if they get wet, they may as well have been naked, you know. Well that was long before we ever had them here. But then that’s what they had on. Everybody was staring over at them. But they had a good time up there swimming and all. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  6   �But then another time we had them at our place from Denmark. And everybody said, “Oh we’ve got to have the return missionaries come up so they can,” I said, “We don’t need that they speak English.” I said, “We don’t, but they speak more than one language over there.” So anyhow, I don’t drink, but I thought they do because the water’s bad there you know. And it’s gonna be hot. It was in July. So I had a guy bring up a few cases of beer. And I had a little stream running down by us that come out of the springs and I had them set them in there, cooling. So when we got up there, why, they had, they had the interpreters with them. That is the other people that was with them. And I asked them when they got up there if they were thirsty. Oh yeah, they are. I said, well, over in that stream, I said there’s cold drinks over there. Gad, [laughing] they did away with all of them. They were all gone. But I don’t know this. I made a few notes here… Oh another thing. We had a very dear friend who was James Holy Eagle from Pine Ridge Reservation. DE: Now that was James TK: Holy Eagle DE: Holy Eagle TK: He used to come and spend summers here. And, oh, the kids they just worshiped him. He was their grandfather as far as they were concerned. But he liked to spend all the time he could up at our place there in the canyon. And he, what we call dogwood, they call that red willow. And he’d cut off pieces of that and let it kind of dry. Then he’d scrape the outer bark off and then the inner bark he’d scrape and save. And when it dried he’d grind it all up and that’s what they call kinnikinnick or tobacco. He’d mix a few little, real tobacco in with it. He had one cigarette every night for visions up there out of that. But I thought that was interesting to find out what we call dogwood they call red willow and made their tobacco out of it. But [Track 5] he’d wander around up there. He loved being up there and that. And the kids loved having him up there, too. I was a special guest for the first Sun Dance they had that was legal back in ’72. And I was able to take pictures of all that. There was a porcupine up there. DE: Now when you say the first Sun Dance what was that? TK: That’s a very holy dance for them. They put a pole or a tree in a circle and then their, whoever they’re going to dance for, they make kind of a rope that they weave that’s tied up to that. And then they’d pierce themselves here and put that rope in it. And they’d dance and that until, four days, until they’d pull that out finally. And for the, in order to have the whatever they’re dancing for was done. But I don’t know so many things. There’s something. I’m getting off of… Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  7   �DE: You’re okay. You’ve mentioned your family a couple of times. What were their names? TK: My family? [Wife was Patricia Kindred.] I had six children. I just lost my daughter [Jennifer Treibe died 22 July 2008]. She lived right across the street; the only one that still lives here. [She] had liver cancer. But anyhow, my oldest was Timothy Kindred; then Rebecca Kindred and Kathleen Kindred and Patricia Kindred, Jennifer Kindred and Lindy Kindred. Most of them had a, only one graduated from over here at USU. But they all had an introduction over there. Some stayed and some didn’t. My youngest one she’s, teaches graduate students in Bloomington, Indiana, in theatre. In fact she was a designer for Shakespeare Festival, not this year, but the two years before. DE: Just here in town? TK: Salt Lake. But anyhow, I was trying to think what else I could tell you about… DE: Well, really to get just a little more on you. During all this time what was your profession, what did you do? TK: Well, I was a jack of all trades, I guess. Out here, for instance, I was hired as consulting, management consulting person. And I traveled quite a lot. More for corporate than I did from the Wasatch Division, because they had other interests that they’d call me for. We had, oh; we had a place, for instance, in Georgia, St. Mary’s, Georgia. And they were going to build a big booster down there. But it didn’t work out. So they started building ammunition down there and there was an explosion. So it killed several people. So they sent me down there to get it started again. And then they were in the rug-backing business. And that wasn’t working. So they sent me here, there and yonder. They had, oh they must have had 25 places that made ‘em. But it didn’t take long to find out what was the matter. They weren’t organized. But I spent time down at Virginia – at Waynesboro. That was for the one that I, the main one was on it. And I don’t know. Then I spent a year in Chicago when the wind tunnel at Calahoma [?], the Air Force. Somebody left a ladder in there and they turned it on and destroyed it. They had to rebuild it. And part of it was in Chicago. They weren’t building it very fast so I spent a year commuting in there. But that was mainly what I was sent. But since I’ve retired it’s been oh, history, local. [Track 6] In fact here I think it was I don’t know [19]’96 -’97, I belonged to the Mormon History Association. And they established the Thomas Caine Award and I got that the first year they issued it. That’s for a non-Mormon doing Mormon history. DE: Now what is the Thomas Caine Award for? TK: The Thomas Caine? I collected all this data, local data and maintained it. I don’t know they’d send people from everywhere here for information; anywhere in the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  8   �Valley here practically. Elaine Thatcher, her father was a really good friend of mine – Ted Thatcher. And his mother was a very dear friend of mine: Hannah Thatcher; Frank Thatcher’s wife. But she was a 106 years old when she died. She lived a good long life. DE: And Elaine told me (Elaine Thatcher is one of the people who is over the project) she said that you were quite a historian; that you had done a good deal of local history work. TK: Well, her grandmother was not Mormon, and her grandmother’s father John oh… I’m pushing 90 and I have, I don’t get instant recall of names. What was his last name? Anyhow he was director of music. He came from Wales. He was director of music out here in Benson Ward for different wards out there. Went to church there all the time; but never joined the church.1 And he was the first Postmaster out there. And his, he had to make a name for it. Wasn’t Benson then; he called it King. And I have postcards from there that were never used. King, Utah. DE: Before it was called Benson it was called King? TK: King. Uh hum. Yeah. But I don’t know. I was trying to just think of other things that maybe… DE: Some of the things that we’re looking into are the land use policies. The way the canyon has been used. What are some of your views on land use policies? TK: Well, they put a stop on issuing any permits for homes up there. And they would like to get rid of all of them. But that’s going to be a hard thing to do. I know they had a committee a number of years ago do a massive study on that. And there were some 98,000 summer homes on government land [all over the country]. And they recommended that Forestry sell that land to the people that owned the places and get out of the business. Don’t do it anymore. Well, poor old M.J. Roberts, he had to call a meeting on that, you know. And I kept asking when he was going to get to that part. And finally he was getting angry about me asking him. He didn’t want to get it. He said, “You couldn’t afford to buy it.” He said, “We want $3,000 an acre.” I said, “I’ll give you a check right now for it.” [Laughing] But they never did do it. They never sold them. They still lease the land. And it’s high now, but the lease is not as high as the areas put on taxes, things like that, you know, and insurance for up there. And I don’t know the taxes have gone skyhigh. There was hardly any taxes on those places [in earlier times]. They never 1 Note from Elaine Thatcher: Hannah Mathews Thatcher was 105 when she died in 1990. Her father, John Mathews, was choirmaster for St. Johns Episcopal Church in Logan. He would walk to Logan from Benson to serve in this capacity. I don’t think he ever attended the LDS Church unless it was for a wedding or funeral. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  9   �did anything for them. But now the county, I think, on just a little place up there, be $600-$700 a year on it. And they used to let students live there the year-round. But not anymore; they got to be out of there, they close it. DE: You mentioned earlier some of the ways that you’ve noticed the way people use the canyon has changed. [Track 7] You said it used to be a lot slower, and now everybody’s in a rush to get to Beaver or to Bear Lake. Can you talk a little bit more about that? How the way people use the canyon has changed in your life. TK: Well, yes. It used to, you know, you drove slowly up there because it was a narrow road. And you could enjoy a trip up there. You weren’t hanging on to the steering wheel wondering who’s gonna hit you next, you know, or something. But now it’s a speedway going up there. Well, it’s getting to be the same way going from Logan to Preston since they widened that. That’s 60 miles an hour now and they go 70-75-80 on it. But it used to be an enjoyable trip to go up there. But I don’t know; I don’t like it now. I go up to the Emigration Canyon going from Preston over. Because it’s a bad road there, it’s narrow yet. You can go through there and really enjoy it, going through, enjoy the whole place. And then there’s Ricks Springs up there. I don’t think it’s even open anymore.2 DE: Ricks Springs? TK: Uh hum. Everybody’d always stop there and get a drink. But I guess it was dangerous to pull off there now. Or maybe it didn’t have no parking there after widening it. I don’t know. DE: So it seems like widening, the widening of the roads and the making of the speed limits faster has changed things a lot. TK: Yeah. The whole bit. And they had to widen the bridges. Then there’s that one bridge up used, you kind of worried about even crossing it when somebody’s coming the other way, ‘cause it was just real narrow. DE: And where was this bridge at? TK: Oh it’s after you . . . it’s quite a ways up there. I’m trying to think what the, it’s when you’re going up high and there’s a deep canyon all around there. In fact a fellow pushed a car off with his wife in it up there. DE: When was this? TK: Oh, a long time ago. Yeah. I think he went to prison for it. Because that must be a 150 feet down. 2 Note from Elaine Thatcher: As of this writing (Dec. 18, 2008), Ricks Spring in Logan Canyon is still open and has pull-out areas for cars, interpretive signage, and a boardwalk for people to walk on going up to the pool. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  10   �DE: Now was this back when the bridge was narrow? TK: Uh hum. Yep. DE: So in dealing with the land use and the policies governing land use, have you, did you personally have any hand it those? In creating policies? Or was there ever something that you lobbied for? TK: No. The things that you used to argue about. They came up one time, for instance, at me. I kept the lawn nice, because we had small children. And you have snakes up there, you know. We’d have a rattler every once in awhile out there go across. But I kept in down and one of the rangers told me I shouldn’t do that I ought to let the grass grow. And I said well I’m not going to do it. I didn’t, either, because I didn’t want my kids running out there to play you know, and stepping on a rattler and get bit; because you never knew for sure. But that brings up something else, you know, that… The students used that the year round. They’d stay there the year round. And there was a couple of them. One of them still lives over here in Logan. But he was kind of a real environmentalist. And in fact he was against the North Slope pipeline in Alaska coming down. But after we had the shutdown on oil coming in here for a short period a long time ago. Well, he went to Alaska and he did write ups on the pipeline. And he made quite a lot of money doing them. And he came back here and he opened his own business here. I often have thought of him. He made all the money writing all these things, you know. But I think he was hurrying them up to get oil in, too. But they’d [Track 8] park in my lower parking and it’d be muddy and they’d made ruts in there. So I called them one day, the three of them up there and I said, you guys bring your rakes over here and clean up the mess you left on my parking. They says, like what? And I said, “You’re all environmentalists,” and I said “Look what you did down here.” I said, “You made these deep ruts.” [Chuckles] But those same guys, I get, they used to come up and we’d have, I had a fire pit and we’d do pit barbeques up there. That’s something else I did too. When they used to have the Western Writers Conferences here, I always knew who was coming and I’d do a pit barbeque up at our place for the ones who were going to take part in it. Not the audience, but the ones that were, and I met all these people, and I’d always have their book so they could sign them. But I don’t know. They’re wonderful people, you know. The only one I didn’t like, well, I guess he was alright. But he was different, was Edward Abby. DE: Edward Abby? TK: Yeah. He was kind of foul-mouthed. But he’d have a couple of drinks, and start in. But I don’t know. Wallace Stegner, he was a wonderful person. He just, they were over to the house here, he and his wife two different times to visit. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  11   �But also this, the same ones, the environmentalists that I was telling you about, one winter we went up to Mammoth Springs in Yellowstone and stayed up there with a project officer and then the next day went over to, oh, what’s the, oh, that’s awful when you can’t recall right quick. Anyhow it’s Windows Flat in the valley. And we went over there and snowshoed in to get pictures of wildlife in there. Oh, it was a beautiful thing. But they were worried about me. I was the oldest one of them and they were afraid I was going to fall. But I made it. And oh, shoot. But anyhow, we had lots of experiences like that. I feel I’ve had a good life. You know, getting involved in all these things. DE: Had a lot of activities and things go on. TK: Well, in the early days. Now this is something else I guess I could tell you about. We were very active with the foreign students. And back in the early 60s up ‘til early 70s they had several thousand here. DE: The foreign students? TK: Uh hum. And a lot of them were from Iran, Iraq, and places like that. Arabia, Egypt. But the main ones that came was from South America. And places that don’t like us like Venezuela. The ones that turned on us, you know. But we had lots of students. They used to call this house the Latin American Embassy. But anyway some students were leaving to go home then they would bring students coming in over and introduce them. So it was constant turnover coming in. But we’d take them up the canyon. I don’t know, have barbeque and stuff up there. And entertain them. But I don’t know. Do you have more things there that you could . . .? DE: A couple of things that I would like a little, if you can elaborate a little bit more on, with the writers project; when the writers came in. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? TK: Well, yes, it was a fabulous thing to me. They had quite a large attendance for that. And, of course, the big names of all of them that came in. I know our son’s name was Timothy Shane. And Frank, [Track 9] I’m trying to think of his last name just off hand. That wrote the movie, the story Shane. [A.B. Guthrie wrote the screenplay for Shane.] He was here. And when he found out our son’s name was Shane he wrote a whole page in the book and gave to him. About Shane and all. But oh, Guthrie, and here a while back, I can’t get the names, I can’t recall them real quick for you. But those, some of those people still come for other occasions here. Like when they have the Leonard Arrington lectures. Every once in awhile I’d go and here’s an old face comes in. And there’s one from Yale, he was here a while back and I went down to talk to him. We had a nice visit there for a while. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  12   �Because he had the old memories of having a pit barbeque. He’d never seen one before. But it’s been a wonderful life here you know, and stuff. DE: Are there any ways you can think of that the writers project, and having those writers come in and share that Logan Canyon, and experience Logan Canyon, that affected the development of Logan Canyon? Or the land use of Logan Canyon? TK: Well, we used to use up all the parking spaces up there at Beirdneau when we had these. But I think the people enjoyed them. Like Tom Lyons lived right there, he was from the University. And I don’t know but Ken Brewer. Ken was a participant in that. And then there was another one that died not long ago – Mark Sorensen. [Omitted part of interview at this point.] In fact there were other things they had, too. They used to have the Lawman/Outlaw Group. And they had all the western stuff. It used to all be published here. But they’d just last so long; it was almost like the Heritage Farm out here. Most of that was up on the campus and they moved it all out there now. But I was involved in that when they first started out there. The first manager was from here, Sven Johnson [Johansen?]. But I think they’re doing a better thing out of it now, over there. DE: That’s the Heritage … Was it the heritage ranch you’re talking about? TK: Farm DE: The Heritage Farm. TK: Yeah. Out there by Wellsville. Yeah. [Ronald V. Jensen Historical Farm] DE: What can you tell me about Austin Fife? TK: Austin Fife. He was a real good friend. He and his wife used to come over every once in awhile. And they always had these wonderful stories. There’s something that I never did see documented that over here in Wellsville they had, one of the families that came in from the east brought slaves with them. And when the slaves were released they took their name of Brad what, it will come to me in a minute. Anyhow one of them was Pokey. And over here in Mt. Sterling he squatted on a piece of land. And they had a quarry in there. And a lot of the rock that went into these Wellsville homes [Track 10] came out of that quarry. And they have the cemetery over there. For the centennial I got people out of range science to come and clean that up, because there’s still a lot of people buried there. And when I, they put something in the paper about it. And I said that I was worried about two places there. Said I was wondering if there had been slaves that were buried there. Because they had sunk in; and Wilma Hall over in Wellsville, she’s the historian for there. She called me up and she says, “What do Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  13   �you know that I don’t know?” [Chuckles] That was under their control then. I said, “I don’t.” I said, “But they didn’t make tombstones for them when they died.” I knew that. And I said, “I’m trying to also get more information on it.” But I said, “Most of them migrated to Salt Lake.” And I said “I have the phone numbers of them.” But how do you call and ask “Are you black or are you white?” To talk to them. So I said I haven’t done it. But I don’t know. There’s so many things that they have up there. Now Malibu, right across from where Malibu is the area called Malibu. There used to be a large, oh, dance hall built in there. And later became a scout place. And then finally they just tore it down, got it out of there. Then down where the Stokes Center is. That was originally a scout place. And then the Legions had it for a long time. DE: The who? TK: The American Legion. DE: American Legion. TK: Uh hum. And now, of course, it was kind of abandoned because the Legion was, well, ‘cause they were dying off from World War I and II. That was the day. Not going to be around too long. DE: Is there anything that you could tell me about Hardware Ranch? TK: Yeah. I love the Hardware Ranch up there. In fact, there’s a book on it called Twenty Eight Years on the Anderson Ranch by Leon Anderson. And a number of years ago when they had a young ranger up there, and they wanted to start having an elk festival. So I called all over to find out who could give me authorization to republish that book. And I found Leon’s son in Hawaii and he gave me permission to publish a thousand of them. And we printed them for $3.00 apiece; we were selling them for $10 using the money for that up there to help with that. And when I first came here the Legion in the wintertime had a trailer that they’d park at the entrance up there and they sold hot chocolate and coffee and hot dogs and hamburgers and stuff to people. Used to be a lot of people went up there in the winter. And I don’t know that’s the way they raised funds for it. But then the first year that they had this elk festival. DE: What festival was that? TK: Elk Festival DE: The Elk Festival Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  14   �TK: Yeah. Dan Christensen is the Superintendent up there. And he’s doing a lot of new things. What’s his . . . Thad Box. DE: Thad Box TK: Yeah. He was the first speaker up there. I like him. He’s really a neat fellow. Even at his house, the house he lives in there on Center Street. I had a call from Barbara Howell one time, wanted to know if I’d come over and tell her about some light fixtures that she had. And I went over and they were art deco style. And she was showing them to me and wanted to know what they were worth. And I told her. Well, then I was on the committee for places that we give awards to for maintaining. [Track 11] And Thad’s house came up and we went down to take a look at the house, and I looked at it and I said, “Oh, those fixtures, you got those from Barbara Howell.” And Thad says, “You’re the culprit that told her what they were worth.” [Laughing] But I get involved in a lot of stuff like that. I don’t know. But anyhow, I was afraid they were going to try to do away with Hardware Ranch, maybe sell it or something. And so I’ve encouraged Dan to do everything he can, you know. He’s doing a lot of new things up there now. And I know this one time, the first year they had the festival later. They had an all day, oh, kits that they got from Lowe’s and the Home Depot to make bird houses and things. And I stacked up a whole bunch of bird seed. And the kids would put those together up there for something to do, you know. And they began to draw a pretty good crowd up there to that. And I loved driving up. But that’s another canyon where it’s all privately owned up there now. Yeah, when I came here you could walk anywhere you wanted to you know. It was privately owned then, but people didn’t, there was just one place up there, the Adams Homestead. DE: The Adams Homestead? TK: Uh huh. It’s still there too. In fact, it’s still in the Adams family. He was the principal here at the high school. And they homesteaded up there, and I think this is the third generation now, has it up there. The house is still there and all. But it’s a, I don’t know, it’s a—when I used to come over the summit up here and look down I could tell every little town because there was just a block or two of lights. Now the whole valley’s lit up. Everything, you know, just… You know I gave, this is off the subject, but, I gave . . . after my wife passed away I was going through things she had. And I had two years of newspapers bound like they used in the newspaper office. And I thought they ought to be over where somebody could use them, because the age of them and all. And I took them over to Ann Butters and gave them to her. DE: Who’s Ann Butters? [USU Special Collections’ Western and Mormon Americana Curator] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  15   �TK: She was over Special Collections. DE: Okay. TK: At that time. Anyhow, she was amazed because they were from, there was a Boston Record it was 1818 and 1819. And it was still very legible. No deterioration on them. But they had all the stuff in there about slave ships coming in, and missionaries going off from a hundred different churches. Everybody was sparked with religion then. But then I don’t know, just other things I gave them. I had, let’s see, Campbell. Yeah, Thomas Campbell and his wife they were the first Presbyterian ministers up at Mendon. And it’s their wedding pictures, oh, that high and that wide, you know. It was left here when they left. I don’t know if they left in a hurry or what. And this house next door to me, it used to be the Methodist Church here. DE: And now it’s a home. TK: Yep. I’m getting off the canyon for you. DE: I noticed when I was walking up to your house. You have a lovely house here. You’ve got this great old wood burning stove behind you that we talked about earlier. TK: Yeah. That came out of Park Valley [Utah, in Box Elder County]. DE: Oh did it? Out of Park Valley? TK: Uh hum. DE: It’s a beautiful old wood burning stove. TK: It’s usable. I keep that wood out there. When I’m sitting here in the evenings, I put a stick or two of wood in there and light it. And then it’s a [Track 12] different warmth and that. And then the kids, I have two grandchildren who live across the street. They’re 19 and 22. They like to go camping, so they come over and swipe a few to take with them for fires when they’re up camping. DE: Well, I guess probably one of my last questions for you with talking about, you know, you have this very strong connection with Logan Canyon, with the outdoors and in working with the writer’s project, and, you know, you had some great experiences with that. Was there any piece of literature, any piece of writing that really affected your connection to the land? TK: A writing of it? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  16   �DE: TK: Uh hum. Well… Well, like Old Ephraim. That story lives on and on. I can tell you a story about that too. Scott Bushman, one of the Rangers… DE: Uh hum, Forest Rangers TK: Forest Rangers. He wanted to fix up for the centennial an exhibit there in the rangers shop. And he wanted to get use of the Old Ephraim’s skull that they had at the University [in Special Collections, on permanent loan from the Smithsonian]. DE: Uh huh. TK: This is bad. I told, I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what,” I said. “That really belongs to the Smithsonian. But, I said, they let the University use it here. And I said you call, I had the Director of Government Affairs for the Smithsonian, she’s a friend of mine.” I told him, call her. And I said, “She’d give you permission.” He called her and she said, “Old Ephraim’s skull. We’ve been trying to find out where it’s at.” [Laughing] Anyhow, he told her who told her to call. And so she gave him permission to use it. But that was funny you know that they were upset that they didn’t know where it was. But that’s records I guess. DE: Now what’s the story behind the Old Ephraim. [For information on Old Ephraim go to USU Special Collections digital collection at http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/Ephraim] TK: Well, supposedly, this fellow was almost attacked, and he’d been watching for him because he knew he was big. And he came in as a sheep herder type. And I don’t know they give that lecture here all the time. They love to give that to scout troops and all, you know, the ones that read it. But he was buried and was over nine feet tall, on it. But, I don’t know, it gets overused maybe. But I think of Yellowstone. I don’t like Yellowstone anymore, because, when I used to go up there, you could stop, the bears never bothered you. They’d come right up and you’d give them something, you know. I was more concerned about moose those days than I was the bears; because the bears were smart. They could get a handout. But now there’s more foreign people up there than there are United States citizens. And, besides its speed [limits] changed, widened the highways. And now around Old Faithful, you used to set up fairly close and now it’s all gravel; a great big area that’s graveled. DE: Well, are there any last stories that come to mind that you’d like to share? TK: Well, I got lots of stories, but they’re not all about the canyon. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  17   �DE: [Laughing] Well, we’ll narrow it down to any last stories about the canyon. TK: Yep. I don’t know. When they, when this American Heritage group were meeting out at the farm out here for a long time. And I was involved in that. But then they got to the point where, well, in four months I’ll be 90 years old. That’s getting pretty awkward you know, to try to keep up with the younger people in this stuff. And I drive, but I don’t like to drive at night. I’m just apprehensive. I don’t want to cause an accident. But I was involved out there and I loved it. In fact I was [Track 13] involved with the whole thing out there when it first started. I helped to get it going. I used to furnish stuff for the June wedding; things that you never see around there anymore. You know what bone dishes are? DE: Bone dishes? Uh uh. TK: Well there like a, they’re shaped, there’s some over there in that thing. But, they sit beside your plate. And when you ate chicken you put the bones over there. DE: So it’s kind of like almost banana shaped dish that you would put the bones in. TK: Yeah. Well those and butter pads and knife rests. Two knobs with a thing. They had a plate so the knife wouldn’t get on the tablecloth. Stuff like salt cellars with little dips, for salt shakers and things like that. I’d take them out there and special types of linens and things clear back then. But it’s getting to where it’s just too much effort to do it anymore. I have Indian things though. I was telling you Holy Eagle used to come here. DE: And what was Holy Eagle again? TK: James Holy Eagle. He’d spend a full summer and he’d have his mail sent here. And he’d go up to the post office every afternoon to get the mail. The kids would go with him. Everybody in town knew him, him being here all summer. But they’d stop at the, had a drug store up there then, on the way back and get a candy bar or ice cream or something for each one of them. Well this one day it was raining, the kids said it’s time to go get the mail. And he said, No we’ll wait till 2:00 and it will quit raining. Well, 2:00 came and it quit raining. So he went and got the mail and came back and it started raining again. Well, they figured Holy Eagle could do anything, anything at all. [Laughing] But I don’t know, he went to school here one fall to the high school. And, well, it was up at Sky View, before Mountain Crest was here. And they had him on the stage for all the whole school and audience there in the auditorium. And he kept going on and on and we had Indian kids in front of him and his big arms stretch out and emphasizing everything. And it was so quiet in there and finally he was going way past time. And I asked the principal, I said, you want me to stop him? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  18   �And he said, No, not on your life. He said, they’ve never been a piece where it’s been this quiet. Let him keep right on. DE: Now do you remember was he Shoshone? TK: No, he was Sioux. DE: Sioux. TK: Hunkpapa-Minneconjou, a mixture. But he was a grandson of Sitting Bull. DE: Of Sitting Bull? TK: Yeah, very interesting. But I don’t know my daughter that passed away [Jennifer Treibe]. She has an oil painting of him upstairs that she did. But I got lots of pictures of him. He was mistaken a lot of times for the fellows in the movies. Has long hair, white hair, chief. I had him down to the airport one time and this fellow facing the other side from us. I told Jim, I said, you better smile a little bit that fellow’s going to take your picture. He was getting the camera way down there. He was just gonna see it. After he took it I asked him, I said, “You wanna know who he is?” He said, “Well, is he the one that’s in the movies?” And I said, “Nope. It looks like him, but it’s not him.” But he was, he was in World War I and he went to Parallel school in Pennsylvania when they sent the Indians out for, but he was a wonderful person. [Disk 2, Track 1] DE: Well, thank you very much. TK: Say what? DE: I said thank you very much. You’ve done a great job as a historian. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of great work and lived a very wonderful, interesting life. TK: Well, I love this stuff. You know doing this. And, I don’t know, there’s times they talk about maybe I ought to be in assisted living. And I said, No, I’m going to die here, because everything that I love is right here. DE: You’ve got it all set up in the kitchen here. TK: Yep. And I’ve, I was in the throes of passing this stuff on to my daughter; because she was my sidekick for this history and stuff. And we discovered she had liver cancer. And so some of it’s over at her place and I’ve got boxes of stuff that I was giving her. And I’m not sure what I’m going to do now with it. There was a fellow here a while ago, Ray Anderson. He lives down at, just out of Cedar City. And he grew up here in town. And typical, there was a big family. There were 13 Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  19   �children and they were poor. And they were kind of pushed around. But now he’s writing stories about the town. And he comes to me for information. But there are things, I don’t know if you want, if you’re interested in things that you won’t find in a history book. DE: Oh sure. TK: Well, Hyrum had a dairy up at Hardware Ranch, in that area. In the early days it was called United Order dairy: For butter, cheese and stuff. Well, I often challenge people when they tell me Peter Maughan was the first settler here. DE: Peter Maughan? TK: Yeah. I say that’s not true. The first one here was Thomas Garr, when he drove cattle up from Antelope Island: [LDS] Church cattle and their cattle into the valley. And over in Millville they built the, there were three different ones. Each one built a cabin over there. The other two left and went back, but he didn’t. He stayed. And he never married, but he had an affair with a Shoshone. They call her Susie. Now whether that’s the right one or not, nobody knows. Anyhow she had a baby. And she left it with him. And he was known as Jack Garr: Indian Garr. And he found out the church hadn’t filed on the land that the dairy was on. So he went over and filed on it and made them move it. And that’s not in the history books. They had to move it. And that became what is Anderson Ranch today, was established by him. That’s where the church… DE: So Anderson Ranch was established by Garr. TK: Yeah. By Jack Garr DE: Jack Garr TK: And Jack would come in to Hyrum, he’d drive his wagon and horses in, you know. And he’d proceed to get kind of drunk. And on the way back one time he went to sleep and the horses got off to the side of the road and it turned over and it killed him. And so there was a big lawsuit. There’s a schism in the Garr family over this, that don’t believe that really Garr, you know Indian Garr. And the ones that are. But Jack Garr’s grandson lives over in Millville and he’s an old fellow. He’s well educated. His name is Jensen. Monroe Jensen. Nice old fellow. I go over and visit with him every once in a while. But I’ve got the whole history of the Garrs and the lawsuit and everything on it. But to me it’s interesting that its history but they don’t want to document it: unwritten history. So, and there’s a lot of that. There’s another one here, the reason I got interested when I retired was [Track 2] I found photographs done by Hugo Peterson. And he was born with one arm off at the elbow. But he was an artist and a, well, did everything. Photographer. And anyhow, I was looking for pictures that he had Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  20   �done: photos. And I got quite a few of them I found. I knew where he was born over here, where he grew up. I called a fellow that lives in his house. And it was a log house but it’s had additions to it and covered with sheeting now. Anyhow, I asked who he bought the house from and he told me. He said, this fellow. And I said, “Do you know how to get a hold of him? Oh, he’s an old man and he’s dead. Well, I didn’t take that. Went to the Salt Lake phone book and I found this Frank Boyd down there and I called him. And that was him. And he was a grandson of Hugo Peterson. And he came up here. And I had a lot of information. In fact I had their grandparents’ photos: big ones. And I just recently gave them to his sister so they’d be in the family. But I don’t know; we became very good friends over this. And I get a lot of data from them on it. But it’s just things I’ve done. In fact I can tell you the story of how I got the data on them. I had a fellow, there was a Grover Christensen here in town. And I knew he had died and he had no children. He had adopted a boy, the boy died before he did. And his wife had died. And he married a May Nielson. And when May died, I wanted to find out what she did with his documents and things. And they told me she gave them to a woman across the street, a Mrs. Huron. So I went over to Mrs. Huron and asked her if she had them and she said, “I have.” And she gave them to me. But she said, “I wasn’t a relative. So I gave them to Mrs. Croshaw over in Brigham, a cousin.” So I knew Mrs. Croshaw; So I went over to see her. And I said, “Do you have those?” “Oh yes,” she says, “I’ve got all that stuff.” I said “Could I borrow some to reproduce some of it.” And she goes and gets two great big cardboard boxes and these two big pictures. And I said, “How much of that can I borrow?” She said, “You can have the whole damn thing.” She said, “I didn’t like him.” [Laughing] I waited for her to say something else. She said, “He’d come over here and we had fruit farms.” Said, “He’d get cherries, he’d get apricots, he’d get peaches.” And she said, “He’d never pay for them.” She said, he’d look me in the eye and he’d say, “If you think you’re getting any of my money when I die, you better think again.” And they were cousins. But anyhow, here I have all that data, you know. And there’s a lot of stuff I’ve never published, you know, on it. Because I’m telling things that maybe… DE: Is there any of the kind of unwritten history stuff about Logan Canyon that you feel comfortable talking about? TK: Well, I don’t know whether there is or not. This fellow that just wrote the recent book from National… well, teacher [referring to Michael Sweeney and his book on Logan Canyon that was published by National Geographic: Last Unspoiled Place: Exploring Utah's Logan Canyon.] DE: The journalism professor. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  21   �TK: Yep. He was going to come over and talk to me about St. Anne’s. But then I think he decided there was too much controversy over it. And he didn’t want to get that in his book. But I have his book here. But I don’t know. I don’t know. Are you LDS? DE: Uh, yeah. TK: Well, I’m Catholic. But I have to tell you. I told you I got the Caine Award for that. But also they’re going to tear down the old stake house; it’s on the corner here. It’s abandoned now. And a lot of people came to me about what could I do about that. I said, “Nothing.” But I did do something. They were gonna tear it down, [Track 3] but I took the initiative to call the Director of Temporal Affairs in Salt Lake and asked if they would consider donating land to Hyrum for a little children’s amusement park. And I think they’re going to do it. So it’s a two level park. And it would just be ideal to get trees in there and have it; it’s not big enough for too many things. But we don’t have any parks on the west side of town. And so I called the Stake President and the Bishop and told them. They were amazed that I talked to that level. I think they were afraid to. But I figure if you talk to the head honcho. Just say, when we had foreign students, Dr. Chase was president of the University then. I called him one day and I said, “Dr. Chase, Eduardo Zapata, they’re not going to let him register for next year.” And I said, “I don’t know why. I think you ought to know that his family in Venezuela are the head of the Christian Democratic Party. And that could get serious, not letting a son register here.” Oh, he said, “I can overrule the board on that.” So anyway I called him back later. And he says, “Well, I found out, he flunked everything except one, you see, and he’s got an A in that.” And then I says, “Well what was that?” And he said, “Soccer.” And I said, “Let him go home then. Tell him to reregister as a tourist to come in and get things started again.” And Eduardo went home and he called me from there. He was upset, he couldn’t get back in. [Chuckling] But there’s so many. We had some high ranking people here for things. I don’t know if you want to know. Maybe I shouldn’t tell those things. The University and Venezuela were going to establish an irrigation college in Caracas. And we were so heavily involved with foreign students from all over there that they asked if we would work with Dr. Grant Reese and his wife for a reception for the ones coming in. And I said, “yeah, that would be great,” you know, so we were making all the arrangements and some of them arrived on Sunday and they called up here about how did they get to Logan. And I said, “Just cool your heels. You’re not supposed to be here until Monday.” Terrible, you know. They were Ambassadors from the OAS. Well, they get here and they put them up in the Metro Motel, it’s just the motel, the old one there on, up by Frederico’s is it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  22   �DE: Okay. So kind of right as you’re heading out towards the canyon. TK: Yeah. DE: The hotel there. TK: Well, anyhow. They put them up there and they’re calling for room service. They said, “We don’t have room service.” They wanted drinks, you know. And the next thing, they go to the meeting and it’s in, we call it United Nations Room. It’s got a horseshoe shaped table they all sat around. One of them was smoking a cigar, and so he had to put it out. Another one wanted to know if they had coffee. I said, “We don’t have coffee here.” Finally one of them gets up he says, “I thought this was a joint venture thing.” He said, “I’m not staying here, if it’s one sided I’m going home.” And oh, he broke the meeting up. Well they told, called Grant in and told him, they said, “Don’t get involved in that reception, leave it alone.” So I said “Well, we’ll have it anyhow.” And I called these Latin students and I said, “We’re gonna have two bowls of punch.” I said, “Bring whatever you’ve got.” Because they’d have rum and everything you know. And I said “We’ll have sin and some: some with and some without it.” And then Sunday, what do you get them? Pizza. No place open. So I order a whole bunch of pizzas there. We had tables set up nice. But they had interpreters from Washington [Track 4] here. And one of them came up to me and said, “Does the University always do things like this? Oh no! I said, “This is very, very unusual.”[Laughing] So anyhow they got straightened out and they went ahead with it and got it going. And it turned out they put Hermano Scotegi [?] (he was from Caracas; just got a doctorate degree at the University), and he was the first president of the college down there – Joint Venture College. But I don’t know. It’s always been interesting living here. DE: Very interesting. Well, this has been Darren Edwards interviewing Ted Kindred. Here in his home in Hyrum, Utah. Thank you again for your time. The date is August 13, 2008. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  23   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-11-05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ted Kindred interview, 13 August 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau, his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his local history efforts. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindred, Theodore J., 1918- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edwards, Darren Subject The topic of the resource Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Interviews Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Family Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Career in Consulting Logan Canyon (Utah) Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah) Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah) Vacation homes--Utah--Logan Canyon Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah) Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon Sun dance--Utah--Logan Canyon Holy Eagle, Chief, b. 1889 Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon Entertaining--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes Western Writers' Conference Congresses and conventions--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Hardware Ranch (Utah)--History Old Ephraim (Bear) American West Heritage Center (Wellsville, Utah) Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--History Garr, Jack Students, Foreign--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah) Hardware Ranch (Utah) Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah) Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah) Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah) Malibu (Logan Canyon, Utah) Guinavah (Logan Canyon, Utah) Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah) Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah United States Hyrum (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 7 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd7TedKindred Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 13 August 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-08-13 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/89644726e757b60fcb0c622a3f31f574.mp3 33f6694d0c31f329016de79339ef1a11 https://highway89.org/files/original/b319cc667d8ea2f93cac957897690c68.pdf be77c82fb32e3c01d576317a6d69ed62 PDF Text Text LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Fred Knowlton Place of Interview: Conference Room in Sociology Department Date of Interview: 28 April 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Rebecca Smith Rebecca Smith Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD 660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams (14 July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Fred Knowlton talks about his growing up experiences on the family farm in Springville, New York, his family’s educational pursuits, and his experiences with coyotes and the environment. Reference: FK= Fred Knowlton RS = Rebecca Smith (Interviewer; USU graduate student) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] RS: So Fred, I would like to start by asking you to tell me your full name. FK: Ok. Frederick Frank Knowlton. RS: When were you born? FK: 11/24/1934 RS: And where were you born? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  1   �FK: I was born on a farm in Springville, New York. That’s the western part of the state, south of Buffalo. RS: Could you talk about being born there and growing up there. FK: As I mentioned I grew up on a farm. Started working on the farm when I was six or seven years old. And from the time I was seven until I left for college, I guess I was responsible for the family cow. Milking it twice a day and taking care of the feed and everything. But I was actively involved in, it was essentially a truck farm, a truck and poultry farm, we had about six hundred laying hens and then we grew cabbage and sweet corn. And one of the more unusual things is we had up to four acres of gladiolus that we used to sale as cup flowers. So it was sort of a diversified operation, all outdoors. RS: This was your family farm? FK: This was a family farm. RS: What was your father’s name? FK: His name was Frank. RS: Frank Knowlton? FK: Frank Eldore. RS: And your mother? FK: Eva Elizabeth Reith Knowlton. And she was born in Hungary. Came to this country in 1907 or there abouts, the exact date is a little bit uncertain. RS: And your father was he from New York? FK: He was from New York; lived most of his life in and around Buffalo. Actually Lackawanna and Woodlong and so were the two areas where he grew up. My parents met at Cornell, which is sort of an unusual back in say about 1920. And he taught for a year down at Farmingdale on Long Island and then decided that teaching wasn’t for him. He went back to the city of Buffalo and found a farm, a small farm. And that’s where they settled for 56 years. RS: Did you have siblings that also helped with the farm? FK: A brother and sister. RS: You took care of the cow, you say, and milked it twice a day. What did they do? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  2   �FK: We all worked on collecting the eggs and taking care of the chickens. That was some of the routine stuff. And then my sister and I were probably the only ones that really worked the farm. My brother was interested in other things and he went into engineering and that sort of thing. RS: So how long did you work on the farm on a daily basis? FK: Oh it probably would have been it was until I was 18. RS: And your sister… FK: And my sister also. And you know, we don’t give that generation much, too much credit at times, but my folks must have done something right because they raised three kids. My sister was the slacker in the group because she was salutatorian of her high school class. Her two brothers were valedictorians. RS: I don’t know if I would call her a slacker then… FK: Well, we have to remind her of it. And then one of our favorite pictures is a picture my aunt took when we were, my sister was about 3 and I was 4 and my brother was probably 8 at the time. But we were sitting on the front porch of the house and it looks like 3 dead end kids. It’s just a rag-tag crew. But many years later we were all back visiting the folks at the same time and we took another picture, with all of us in the same pose that we were in the original picture. And then we just printed it. 06:08 Our brother was PhD Cornell, oh no, MIT, I forgot what the year was. And my sister was PhD Cornell University. And mine was PhD Purdue University. And so we just sort of laugh about these dead end kids that all ended up with PhDs. I think my folks did that, and I don’t think they ever netted more than $5,000 a year off the farm. In this day and age it’s hard to conceive of that sort of thing going on. RS: Did they encourage your education? Or was this something… FK: Well, I mean it was one of those things that just, it was understood. I mean it was not a question, it was not, you were not asked. It was when you got done with high school you went to college, period. And we never questioned it, we just, just did it. RS: And it sounds like it worked for you. So your siblings went to Cornell, but you ended up at Purdue, how… FK: No, I, we all got our bachelor’s degrees from Cornell. One of the things my dad said was “You can go to college anywhere you want, but the first year you go to Cornell.” RS: So we were talking about your education and growing up on your family farm. How long did you live in New York? 07:20 Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  3   �FK: I lived in New York until I was probably 22 or 23. RS: And then where did you go? FK: And then I headed off for a Masters degree at Montana State College at the time and got a Masters in Wildlife Ecology. I worked briefly then with the Montana Fish and Game Department. And then was accepted into a PhD program at Purdue University, under the advisorship of Durward Allen. RS: So what did you study at Cornell then? FK: Wildlife Management. RS: Wildlife Management at Cornell. And how did you get interested in that? FK: Well, I guess coming out of a farm background and when I wasn’t working the farm I was out poking around in the bushes and playing in the woods and seeing what was going on, watching the animals and that sort of thing. RS: Do you have any particularly interesting stories about your forays into the woods with the animals? FK: Oh, not particularly then. Some of the more interesting things is after I went in college, as I was taking Wildlife Management but not totally sure that that was the definitive thing. And one day I remember sitting in the lab, was part Taxonomy lab, and studying plants. We were trying to classify various specimens and things. One of the people in the row in front of me was David Mech; we were sort of casual friends but particularly in clubs at that particular time that was a day in spring. And one day he turns around and said “Say did you hear about the black bear project that they are going to do in the Adirondacks?” And I said no. Well, he said, “Well, that guy up there on the 3rd row is a graduate student, and he is heading it up. Why don’t you ask him if you can get on the research crew?” And it turned out that I said “Oh that sounds interesting for the summer.” So I queried him and he said “Well we only have funds to higher two people.” And almost on spur of the moment we got another thought. I said for “Room and board you got a third.” So it turned out that to make everything good and legal, it was room and board and a dollar a day. And that’s sort of a ridiculous thing to do because I had to make money to go to school at fall: to pay tuition and everything. But that experience in terms of things that happened that summer, were set the sails and the rutter and everything else, for a whole career. But you may not be aware, but David Mech went on to become one of the foremost wolf biologists in the country. And I took a slightly different track and ended up spending my entire career studying Coyotes. RS: So with that black bear research, what did you end up doing? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  4   �FK: RS: Were you fearful? FK: No. We weren’t old enough to be fearful. Actually, black bears are fairly docile and they are more apt to run away than anything else or not at all aggressive. RS: So I’m just going to recap a little bit to make sure that I have your story down pretty well. So you grew up on a farm and that sort of sparked your interest in animals and wild life and plants. And so then when you decided to college you went to Cornell and you studied Wild Life Management. And then while there, that’s when you met David Mech. How do you spell his name? FK: MECH. RS: MECH; Okay. And he told you about the project that would be going on in the Adirondacks with the black bear and so you did that for a while. FK: I actually did it for two summers. I got paid a little better the second summer. RS: That was good. With your experience you could hold out for some more huh? FK: It was actually, the people with New York Conservation Department were essentially helping that we could tag 5 or 6 bears during that 1st summer. And that summer, Dave and I were pared teamed together and we just run the Adirondacks and we ended up trapping and tagging 60 bears when they expected 5 or 6. RS: Wow. Ten times their expectations FK: And before it all got said and done, I like to say that I had a hundred and 67 notches in my bear trap before that part of my career ended. RS: So you did that at Cornell? And you graduated with your undergraduate degree there: a Bachelor of Science in Wild Life Management. Did you meet people there who were particularly influential in shaping your career? FK: 15:39 Well we were trapping and tagging bears primarily, and it was before the days of telemetry and everything else. We had very crude techniques for subduing bears and tagging them and measuring them, and weighing and all that. I met a few people. But it wasn’t particularly on a, well I say it wasn’t on a professional level. I did meet people like C.W. Severinghouse and E. L. Cheeton, but they were higher up in the New York Conservation Department and they knew of this crew and everything and they came to visit us, but it wasn’t much beyond that. And then my advisor at Cornell was, undergraduate advisor was Oliver Hewitt and there isn’t much exceptional in terms of undergraduate relationship, but eventually after I got my PhD and was working for the US Fish and Wildlife Services, he was going on Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  5   �Sabbatical and he needed somebody to teach his courses. So I took a leave of absence from the Federal Government and went back to Cornell and taught his courses for a semester. RS: Did you enjoy that experience? FK: I enjoyed it. But at that time I had a full time research job, with the Fish and Wildlife Services. I opted to stay in full time research as much as possible. RS: So when did you get interested in coyotes then? Was that at Cornell? FK: No, my first experience with coyotes was in New York. It was during the fall of 1956. We had been asked to go back into the Adirondacks Mountains in late September to try to catch another bear or two. And I remember Dave each night camping out in the cold frosty night with stars everywhere. Suddenly a bunch of coyotes took off yipping and that was my first exposure to them. But subsequent to Cornell I went to Montana State University. And did masters on moose in the Gravity [?] Mountains. And then after that I went to Purdue. I was recruited by Durward Allen to do a study in Texas, which involved predation problems with coyotes and deer on the Wardler Wildlife Refuge in South Texas. So that was my first real experience with coyotes. RS: So Durward Allen was at Purdue and he was your? FK: He was my advisor. Graduate advisor from my doctoral dissertation. RS: Ok so he got you working on a project with coyotes? FK: Yeah, with coyotes. RS: And you said it was because they were attacking deer? FK: Well, he just said that there was this neat area in Texas where they had a lot of deer and they had coyotes and wild turkeys and that stuff. And he just sent me down there and for a summer I had to figure out what I was, or carve out my study program. It involved the study of the relationship between coyotes and deer. And try to interpret it. RS: Can you talk more about that experience? FK: Well it turned out that I decided that if you wanted to understand the impact of coyotes on deer you needed to understand the deer. So that study involved primarily looking at the feeding patterns of coyotes, to determine when deer were vulnerable and what portion of the coyote diet the deer comprised. And then it was a matter of studying the deer in terms of looking at age, structure and survival rates, and reproductive rates for the deer. And so I actually spent more time studying the deer than I did the coyotes. But I became very much interested in the coyotes. And then after I completed my degree, I was hired 16:43 Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  6   �by the US Fish and Wildlife Service to continue ecological research on coyotes. And that was in Texas. I was stationed in San Antonio at the time and I was there for some eight years. And as most people are aware, most of Texas is private land and private ranches. And working’s a little bit difficult. And primarily of sheep predation; problem sheep and goat. And I finally convinced, after about eight years, I convinced directors of the National Wildlife Research Center that we needed to be directing a bunch of this research on public lands. That was a subterfuge. Because when I was in Montana I knew about mountains and snow on top of them year-round. All the time I was in Texas I knew that just over the horizon there were mountains that had snow, and that I was trying to come back. Through the graces of, essentially, Fred Wagner, who is also in the College of Natural Resources. He was Associate Dean at the time. He had started a coyote study in Curlew Valley and he had come down to talk with me about how, things that could be done, or how to go about doing something. Eventually, he was instrumental in getting me to transfer the whole field station that we had in San Antonio to Logan. We’re associated with the College of Natural Resources here, but we are still federal employees. RS: So what valley was that you said? FK: Curlew. RW: Curlew: how do you spell that? FK: CURLEW. And that’s immediately north of Great Salt Lake, in the vicinity of Snowville. RS: So you came there directly from Texas. FK: Well, I came to Logan, but he was doing, conducting some coyote/ jackrabbit studies in Curlew Valley. And that was in 1972. And about that time he sort of got out of the study, stopped his involvement with the coyote and jackrabbit studies in Curlew Valley and our program took them over. And we pursued them for another 20 years. RS: So were you teaching here at the university when you came? FK: No, I was primarily doing research and was administering the official wildlife service program on coyote research. Primarily ecological research, but there are some management implications related to looking, trying to understand coyotes in relation to their jeopordations on sheep and trying to find ways of minimizing those jeopardations. RS: So can you talk about some of your first experiences then here in Logan and Cache Valley or Curlew Valley? FK: Well, a lot of things have changed since then. Obviously some of the first part was just trying to understand both coyotes but also understanding the sheep industry. And at that time they used to, the sheep industry in Northern Utah, has a tendency to graze the mountain ranges in the summertime. And then they move the sheep out to the desert for the wintertime, and they graze out on the desert during the winter. When we first moved Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  7   �here in 1972 they used to trail the sheep from, they used to come out of Green Canyon and trail across the valley and some 60 miles out to Curlew Valley and other areas in that vicinity. And the convention of wisdom at the time was that the coyotes followed the sheep out there. When they moved the sheep the coyotes went with them. When we started to understand that coyotes are territorial, they said it doesn’t make any sense for the coyotes to be following the sheep. They are locked into a partial ground that they defend. So what was happening was the sheep were going from one coyote territory to the next. And the reason that the people thought the coyotes were following them, was that they kept getting jeopordations as they went. But subsequently the one study I did in the Bear River Mountains themselves was looking at, there was also the feeling that coyotes migrated in the winter time with the deer herds. Because people found coyotes among their deer winter range during the winter time. But again from a biological standpoint it didn’t make sense to us to think that here you have a territorial animal, that they would abandon that territory and follow the deer, when they outa be out of their territories during the breeding season and whelping season. Well, the breeding season and whelping season is right in the dead of winter. RS: What’s a whelping season? FK: That’s when pups are born. And so we had a study which specifically looked at whether coyotes changed their location from summer to winter. Summer because it mates. There was a great deal of criticism at the time that from some segments of the public thinking that they are hunting coyotes in those high mountain areas in the winter time and there aren’t any sheep there. And there’s no jeopordations going on. The question is whether they were really getting the coyotes that were causing problems or were they just out there killing coyotes because that’s when they could do it. Our research essentially showed that the coyotes that are moving winter include the coyotes that are there in the summer. And the coyotes tend to, there was no net change in the altitudinal levels in where the coyotes were in the winter time compared to summer time. But that doesn’t mean that there weren’t coyotes congregating around the wintering areas of the big game animals. But I’m reasonably sure that was that were transient animals that were not attached to territories yet. They were essentially kicked out of there natal, the areas where they were born by their parents. And they were out looking around for other areas to go into and also a place to get groceries. RS: So when you made it here to Logan, I was just wondering about your own family, if you had started your own family by this time? FK: Yes, I had… RS: Could you talk just briefly about that? FK: All my children were born in Texas: one in Corpus Christi, and one in Sinton, Texas and two in San Antonio. RS: And where did you meet your wife? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  8   �FK: Via the U.S. mails; a friend of a friend. She was going to West Virginia Wesleyan. And I met her and it was just as I was starting my PhD program. I knew I was going to be going to Texas for a couple years. And I said well either you decide to go together or you just go your separate ways. So six months after I met her we got married and the honeymoon was a trip to Texas and all the years there after. RS: So then you came as a family here to the [Cache] Valley. Do you have any family land use traditions? FK: Well, I grew up on a farm. RS: Yeah, but with your own family here ? FK: Here we did not. As a matter of fact, I have been … as I was getting ready for retirement back in the early 90s, well around 1990, I, having come from a farm I wanted to return to a farm. And I wanted to have animals. And I knew that I couldn’t. I really have a preference for South Western Montana, but I knew I couldn’t get ready for that thing in arms length away. So we eventually, in 1990, bought the small farm in Northern Cache Valley; and acquired a small flock of sheep. And by that time all my kids were grown and through college. But I’ve been roundly berated for not having done that earlier. RS: Not having gotten your farm earlier? By who? FK: Not having gotten the farm. It is primarily my youngest daughter who dearly loves working with horses. And we didn’t have much of an opportunity for that when she was growing up. RS: What kinds of things did they do as kids growing up? Did they do much with the land? FK: Not really. We lived in, at that time, we lived in the North East bench here in Logan adjacent to Lundstrom Park, before it was a park. And they pretty much did typical youth activities in the valley. I mean in terms of school activities and things of that sort. RS: So your small farm that you bought in 1990 then, is that where you still are in Cornish [Utah]. FK: Yes, a non-commercial enterprise. RS: And so you have sheep. Do you have other animals? FK: We had some horses. Actually now its one horse and we board two others for somebody else. That’s all it is. We are raising, the flock is geared specifically toward, to provide wool for my hand spinning interests. So we have essentially three breeds of sheep: Corriedale, Romney and Romeldale. Which are quite three different specific types of wool: white and colored. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  9   �RS: And then you can, do you send your wool to someone? Or do you do the … FK: No, we sell it there at the farm. Or we go to fiber shows, primarily the one in Idaho Falls: the Snake River Fiber Fest. And there is another one now in Salt Lake, which is the Great Basin Fiber Fair. But they are all craft people essentially. RS: So how’s the farm? FK: What? It’s delightful! It was an old decrepit farm that needed a lot of fixing. In my wife’s words (when she saw it and I indicated I wanted to buy it, and all it had for a house at that time was a building that had been moved there, had been retired as a railroad section house in 1930). And my wife said, “Seems to me we are just moving backwards.” But a few months later she said, “Why did we wait so long?” RS: Oh that’s great. So then what are some of your hobbies and recreational pursuits? FK: Well, number one is if you have a farm, you don’t give up the day job. And so the hobbies and recreational things are primarily taking care of the farm. And I did retire about a year ago. But for 15 years or so or 16 years we kept the day job to support the farm. RS: Right. So you retired from the university about a year ago? FK: Well, I actually retired from the federal government. RS: From the fish and… FK: Well, it’s a long story but, well, I was employed by Fish and Wildlife Services, initially. Then in one of their inspirations in 1986 the US Congress transferred the whole animal damage area from the department of the Interior: The Fish and Wildlife Services, to the US Department of Agriculture. So I technically retired from the US Department of Agriculture. But I was still associated with the same, the National Wildlife Research Center, which was the research arm dealing with the problems associated with wild animals. RS: And is that your connection to the university then? FK: Well, my connection to the university is sort of a happy agreement. We have a cooperative agreement where they agreed to house us and give us staff status and let us serve on graduate committees and serve as major advisor of graduate students; that sort of things. So that went on between, from 1972 till 2007. RS: So now your full time profession is farming or ranching? FK: Well, sort of. I still come into the office three days a week or thereabouts. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  10   �RS: I think a lot of people do that. It’s hard to give it away. FK: Well, trying to wrap up. I mean I’ve got, when I look at the, I’ve identified 25 research papers that need to be written. I mean they’ve already got the date and stuff. Obviously all of them aren’t going to get written, but hopefully a major part of them will. RS: So I asked you about some major people who were major influences in helping you make the choice in getting into wildlife management and into farming. But were there other things that influenced you? Like certain classes that you took? Or books? Or maybe some leaders or anything like that? FK: Well, initially when I was probably in junior high school, I had an aunt that gave me a subscription to Natural History. And that sort of, well through that I sort of developed a gradual interest in, I mean, I was always interested as I was out seeing in the wild I mean, on the farm, and I used to trap muskrats for income when I was in my early teens. And I just gravitated in that direction. And [as] I said, I went to Cornell and I didn’t get a full head of steam in the reading in wildlife, I mean I was taking courses and liking it. But it was the research work of the black bears in the Adirondacks that “This is the way we’re going.” And then you start getting wrapped up in some of that stuff. And the new stuff was interesting and they coyote stuff became REALLY fascinating to me when we started looking at the population ecology of coyotes; because virtually nothing was new about it. People just thought coyotes were just out there running willynilly around and we found out that: no they aren’t. They have their own restrictions. They are limited to their own part of the universe. I mean they have their own territory and they stay pretty much within it. Except when they’re bored and they get to be juvenile delinquents. That’s why they split, and try to find a place of their own. And most of them don’t make it. I mean probably 9% of them simply don’t make it to become full- fledged adults. But that’s a pretty common thing in all of wild populations. In order for a population to sustain itself the breeding parent only has to replace itself in its lifetime. You know to bring another pair of animals up to breeding age. And when you realize that they can, that they own a territory they can produce probably 25 or 30, 35 pups in their lifetime. Only two of those will survive. And we are talking averages obviously. RS: Ok, what was your earliest memory of Logan Canyon then to be more specific? FK: My earliest memory? Well, I mentioned that Fred Wagner had visited me in Texas and had talked us into funding one of his research projects. And so in the summer, I can’t remember which summer, in the late 1960s, I took the family on summer vacation. And I remember that we came up and camped in Rocky Mountain National Park; and then over in western Colorado in a place called Lincoln Park. Then I remember we drove across southern Wyoming before the days of I-80. And I remember coming around Bear Lake and then turning at Garden City and climbed up over the ridge and cruised down Logan Canyon and we stopped at a campsite. What’s the name of it? Not Woodside? [Wood Camp] It’s right where the Juniper Jardine trail turns off; I can’t remember the name of it right now. But we camped there and got some pictures of the kids sitting there, they were Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  11   �probably 2, 4 and 5, or something like that at the time. Then we came on down out of the rest of the canyon then met up with Fred Wagner. Then he and I and his graduate student went out to the west desert, but that was my first experience with my introduction to Logan Canyon. RS: So beyond your first experience were there any areas of Logan Canyon that you visited a lot or were most active in? FK: There were some areas, like the areas like the sinks that were pretty during the summer time. And there are some other areas back up in the city of [inaudible] ground, and Herd Hollow those areas. I have not spent much time there in the winter time other than skiing at Beaver Mountain; a past time that has now gone by the boards. RS: Were most of the activities you did in Logan Canyon personal then? FK: They were very personal. The only professional activity was, involved the one study when we were looking at the altitudinal location of coyotes in the summer verses winter, which was a study done by a graduate student Glenn Gantz. RS: How do you spell Gantz? FK: GANTZ RS: Do you have a favorite place in Logan Canyon? FK: Not a single. RS: This goes in a little different direction but are you a member of a religious community? And if so does your religious affiliation effect your land use beliefs? FK: I currently belong to the Presbyterian Community Church in Preston, Idaho, which is the closest church. It’s [inaudible] to our farm. Our farm is right on the Utah/ Idaho border and Preston’s closer than Logan so we affiliated. And they seemed to need us a little more than Logan did. [Laughing] RS: Do they have certain beliefs about the land? FK: It isn’t anything that is identified specifically as land other than a general concept of stewardship. And it’s a matter of … when we are talking about stewardship we are talking about not only stewardship here now, but in perpetuity. You know, it’s for future generations as well as for what’s going on now. RS: So how do you think you or your activities have contributed to land use change and policies in Logan Canyon? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  12   �FK: Well, I think that it’s a little bit difficult to answer. I mean I don’t know exactly how to answer that, other than say that we’ve been studying coyotes and coyote ecology and coyote populations and understanding them. And we’ve been doing that across the west. And most of the things that apply to coyotes elsewhere, also apply to coyotes here. We conduct the studies on coyotes . . . you know I’ve been involved in some very intensive predation studies in Texas. I’ve been involved in coyote population studies in Idaho, in Utah, the state of Washington, Wyoming. So I mean they are all scattered around. The general population patterns are the same; it’s just that you sometimes tweak reproductive rates or you tweak territory sizes or something like that differently when you go from one type of environment to another. But the basic principles in terms of recruitment loss and the behavior of the animals was just one of the things that you try to work with extensively when you’re trying to manage deprivations. So coyotes are very similar in terms of behavior, in terms of their population mechanisms throughout their range. RS: I was just going to ask about policies then; because if you have been doing studies on coyotes I wonder, have there been any major policy changes regarding coyotes that are important or that have maybe shaped your work? FK: Well, there have been some major policy changes in predator management practices; particularly when you’re dealing with animals that cause deprivations. And to pin any specific thing to specific research becomes a little bit difficult. For instance, in 1972 by executive order all predacides were essentially banned in the use for killing coyotes in the federal program. They did switch for some other techniques but that was without the use of poisons. Some of the other subtle things that are going on, just understanding that there’s not a great big mass of coyotes floating around just looking for something to bite, but to understand their territorial and that they limit their own numbers, through aggression or pushing the animals out into unfit environments where they die. And understanding that reproductive rates change; things like that. The management program is trying to shift from removing the animals to behavioral modifications that’s finding those processes, trying to work with those processes that decrease the likelihood that they are going to develop perdition problems. But the policies change slowly. Sometimes they exceed the lifetime of the professionals that are doing the work. You have to wait for the people to change [laughing] in order to get new practices instilled. Although there are occasions when there are very specific directives that come down that are very politically motivated; I mean, that bad intoxicant’s [bill] in 1972 was primarily politically motivated by somebody that wanted to garner a few more votes for presidency. RS: So what’s your overall impression of how land use policies are determined in Logan Canyon? FK: Well that’s something that you probably outa get more information from the Forest Service on that, which is, they’re the primary ones. But I think that curtly there’s a lot more public input into the establishing the policies and the guidelines by which they manage. At least the public is taking into serve in sort of an advisory role in terms of Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  13   �what their interests are. It isn’t that, obviously when you’re talking about areas large and as varied as Logan Canyon is that there are a lot of people that have a lot of different ideas about how it should be used and they all can’t have their way. It’s my impression that the Forest Service is trying to let people have voice and help to guide some of that. RS: So are you a member of any associations that are involved in decision making and land use policies in Cache Valley? FK: Not at the moment. RS: Or in any other places? FK: I’m on, the list goes back to earlier things, I am on the Red Wolf Recovery Implementation team which sort of reviews of policies of trying to establish the wild population of red wolves in North Carolina. That harkens back to a time when my research group was responsible for quote, “finding the remnant populations of red wolves.” And they were brought into captive breeding program; then eventually released back into North Carolina. We were more sort of advising Fish and Wild Life Service what things they need to be doing and what measures they should be taking to understand what’s going on. RS: So have you worked in North Carolina? FK: No, other than going there for advisory. But it was my background in terms of canidae   biology and behavior of that expertise. There’s actually 8 members of that team; we get together twice a year to review data, make suggestions and recommendations. RS: Have you ever tried to influence government actions and, besides making recommendations, but like writing letters or attending meetings? FK: Well I attend professional meetings. But I haven’t as federal employees we’re sort of restricted from getting into policy arenas. Now that I’m retired maybe I can get into them; become a little more involved in that. RS: What world events have had the most impact on your professional life? FK: I think, compared to my professional life, it has probably got to be the environmental moment... that essentially sprung up in the early 70’s after the release of Rachel Carson’s book Silent Spring. Which made people really aware of many of the environmental issues that are going on, were going on at the time. And of course, that focus has switched over the years. I mean now we see it in terms of global warming and energy policy and things like that. But just waking public awareness of the impact that humans have on their environment has essentially is driven by professional career. Because people have different ideas about the species that I’ve spent my career studying was funding for it is derived because of the controversies and the interests that people have. There are a lot of different people that are very much endeared to coyotes; they are very Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  14   �charismatic and they’re extremely interesting, I think, if you get to know them. There’s other people that detest them because of the economic problems they cause to their livelihoods. And that can be a major conflict. And the public awareness of those, I mean of being charismatic, they are trying to push it in one direction and the other people are adamantly opposed to; they would like to see the last one gone. RS: Ok. So do you have any other particular stories that you would like to share with us about your experiences. FK: Nothing other than it’s been a really, a really fun career. I mean it’s had its trials and tribulations, but it’s had some enormously interesting and really insightful things that you just go along and you are just totally puzzled by something. Then you know, every few years you get one of those “ah-ha” moments. And things seem to fall into place and you seem to understand one more small aspect of the whole situation. That’s what people that get wrapped up in environmental research live for I think; the “ah-ha” moments. RS: Do you have any in particular that you remember specifically going: “Oh this is…” FK: Well, some of them are, a bunch of them are really minor things. Like one of the minor ones that I had was early on when I was starting out my studies in Texas, I used to collect coyote carcasses’ from government trappers. And I would look at the stomach contents to see what they were eating. And I remember from this one location I kept finding what obviously was cowhide: no meat, nothing, just cow hide. And it was just one of those puzzling things you know. Why is it that? And, one day I was out on that ranch and one of the people that was there whose duty was to go out and shoot a cow and butcher it and bring it in. So I because at the time I just went along with people, just to see what was happening. So he killed a cow and they butchered it out there in the field and took the meat back to the cool shack to spread out to the families that belonged on that ranch. But the hind and the internals and everything were just; they dug a hole and put ‘em in it. I said “Ah ha!!” RS: Free food for the coyotes… FK: And you know that was just, it’s a very minor thing but those sort of things, you never know when you are gonna run into those things that suddenly give you insight into something. I mean the other time I found, I was looking at studying coyote droppings to determine what they were eating. I literally had thousands of them. This one time of year I kept finding little sharp pieces of grass and I couldn’t, it looked like they were eating cow dung or something like that. And it didn’t make much sense to me. Then one day I just saw these little insect cocoons that were hanging on a fence. The worms had climbed up there and they had created a cocoon by cutting short pieces of vegetation and wrapping it around themselves and secreting a [?]. And it suddenly dawned on me that the same coyote droppings that had these short pieces of grass on them, also had insect parts in them. So they would go along the fences and pick it, pick these things off them. RS: Like berries. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  15   �FK: And eat them like berries. [Laughing] RS: That’s fascinating. FK: It also meaning, with eco coyotes being a carnivore but certain times of the year in Texas 90% of the diet is fruit. You know it’s no big deal, but it’s just one of those things of how really amazing how versatile they are as a species. Someday I’m going to write a book about some of the neat little things about me. RS: That would be great! Well, now that you are retired and when the farm settles down a little and you have a little more spare time maybe you can. FK: Well I built the last fence already so. RS: Well, I’m glad your wife likes it now too! That’s right; I wanted to ask you a quick question about her; probably not related to the project. But you said she went to West Virginia Wesleyan? FK: That’s where she started going to school. RS: Is she from West Virginia? FK: No, she is from western Pennsylvania. RS: Okay. I’m from Maryland and I went to West Virginia University so I know West Virginia. FK: Oh, no she went to West Virginia Wesleyan for a couple years and then she had to decide if she was going to go back to school or if she was going to go to Texas with me. [Laughing] And so she and we started raising a family. She did take time, she took some courses at the Trinity University in San Antonio. And then she actually, in 1972 we moved to Logan, she actually finished her degree at Utah State in Environmental Studies. RS: Did you have influence on her for studying that or that was her own interest. FK: No, that was her interest. And it was, it has been sort of interesting. She has always had (It’s sort of interesting how peoples career sort of wobbles around frequently) but she has always had an affinity for older people. I mean just grandmothers and just old people in general. And after she got her degree here she was not especially an outdoor person at the time. But she must have been 40 at the time when she signed up to be a true leader on the YCC program; which is the Youth Conservation Core. And they were going out in the Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  16   �Logan Canyon, I mean in the surrounding area. They were rip rapping streams and they were building fences and they were building trails and all that sort of thing. And sometimes they’d go out Monday morning and come back Friday evening; and camping out in the meantime. It almost seems out of character at the time, but it was something she did. But at the same time she had an interest in gerontology; so she pursued some studies in that and eventually she became the activity director at Sunshine Terrace here in Logan. She was in the activities department there for 15 years. RS: Wow; good thing she liked grandmas, huh. FK: Yeah! Well, I mean that was her plan she, she eventually, she retired 6 or 7 years ago. But she still gets involved. RS: And you say you have three children… FK: Four. RS: Four children. FK: Two girls, two boys. RS: And are they, did they get… I know you said one is interested in horses and said why didn’t you buy the farm earlier? But are they sort of into using the land or living on… FK: One of them is a teacher in Ogden. And one works at local cheese enterprise. One was a mechanic for 20 years and currently is a long haul truck driver, and thoroughly enjoys it. And then the youngest one, which is the one that likes horses, got a PhD from the University of Alaska at Fairbanks. At the moment she’s, she has come back and taught Oceanography here at Utah State for two years but she is returning to Fairbanks in a month or so, where she’s going to be helping to coordinate, what they call the Census of the Seas. She’s into marine biology. And that’s a world-wide program. And she will be coordinating the near shore elements of that census. RS: Diverse group! Alright well, if you have anything else you would like to share, now would be great. And if not? FK: Well, it’s just that Utah environment is really fun to be around and it’s got variety and it’s pretty neat if you like the outdoors. RS: I think so too. Okay well thank you for your interview. FK: Yeah. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  Fred Knowlton     Page  17   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/28</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Frederick Frank Knowlton interview, 28 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Fred Knowlton talks about his experiences growing up on the family farm in Springville, New York, his family's educational pursuits, and his experiences with coyotes and the environment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knowlton, Frederick Frank, 1934- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Rebecca Subject The topic of the resource Interviews Knowlton, Frederick Frank, 1934---Childhood and youth Family farms--New York Wildlife Management United States. Dept. of Agriculture--Officials and employees--Interviews Coyote--Research--Texas Coyote--Research--Curlew Valley (Idaho and Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Springville (New York) Erie County (New York) New York San Antonio (Texas) Bexar County (Texas) Comal County (Texas) Texas Curlew (Utah) Box Elder County (Utah) Cornish (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 2000-2009 2010-2019 20th century 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 1 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd1FredKnowlton Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 28 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-28 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/8aeb4f565af74c9552b3f33fc58d5b47.jpg 3c30037bf4980fca82339195f71ee2e5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 3508 Image Width Image Width in pixels 4738 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 1200 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale Checksum c7baba383ddf2e6ffa3f2ca98d02d9d0 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 60567164 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Epson Expression 10000XL scanner, display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2008-08-08 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/68895">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/68895</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Navajo Bridge Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kolb, Emery Clifford, 1881-1976 Subject The topic of the resource Bridges--Arizona--Grand Canyon; Rock formations; Rivers--Arizona; Canyons--Arizona; Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white nitrate film negative Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1902-1976 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Navajo Bridge (Ariz.); Colorado River (Colo.-Mexico); United States Highway 89 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Kolb, Emery; Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_110265.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/1b858f4114f45db0479837eb155968f2.jpg 1bac60290c3fa96dbbfb9b6b1bd407bf Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 1424 Image Width Image Width in pixels 2144 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 300 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum ab203b5e271a520af0e3642f9864004a File Size Size of the file in bytes. 33264364 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using NIKON D90, display file is JPEG. Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/14527">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/14527</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Navajo Bridge Dedication, 1929. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kolb, Emery Clifford, 1881-1976 Subject The topic of the resource Bridges--Design and construction--Arizona--Grand Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white nitrate film negative Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1929 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Navajo Bridge (Ariz.); United States Highway 89 Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929; 20th century Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Kolb, Emery Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_123734.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/c395019223c60df9a7fbc359f2d07898.jpg 45c9b78ca4bfebd4da0bb47670c8ef43 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 4715 Image Width Image Width in pixels 4786 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 5000 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 6D2BF4A3363CC1994DFC21C92C7F4590 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 64669780 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Imacon Flextight 848, display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2010-08-13 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63963">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63963</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Navajo Bridge over the Colorado River, Marble Gorge of the Grand Canyon. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kolb, Emery Clifford, 1881-1976 Subject The topic of the resource Bridges--Arizona--Grand Canyon; Rock formations; Rivers--Arizona; Canyons--Arizona; Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Color transparency Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1928-1976 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Navajo Bridge (Ariz.); Colorado River (Colo.-Mexico);United States Highway 89 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Kolb, Emery Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_134304.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/06fda699f38aa5afe984a1a237f55a16.jpg 6e7a3b317f5f25a5a45e29f05936050a Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Image Height 4642 Image Width Image Width in pixels 6806 Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 5000 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 0FF05DC32285D420169CB542A6C87DB9 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 64683452 Conversion Specs Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Imacon Flextight 848, display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2010-08-13 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a> Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63964">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63964</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Navajo Bridge over the Colorado River, Marble Gorge of the Grand Canyon. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kolb, Emery Clifford, 1881-1976 Subject The topic of the resource Bridges--Arizona--Grand Canyon; Rock formations; Rivers--Arizona; Canyons--Arizona; Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Color transparency Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1928-1976 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Navajo Bridge (Ariz.); Colorado River (Colo.-Mexico); United States Highway 89 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Northern Arizona University. Cline Library. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Kolb, Emery Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NAU_134306.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/b4885cb7df20b07b79a6e9db0c9e1749.pdf e3b3d546309f408aedd7aade291efc6d PDF Text Text �CHAPEL OF THE HOLY CROSS Sedona, Arizona Home of the Spiritual Life Institute Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig PLACE STAMP HERE POST CARD ~ <U 0. 0. o "" .a; z Photograph by Neil Koppes 55329 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1756">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1756</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Height Height of digital item in pixels 2215 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3403 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 600 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 2917244521 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 9204349 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona, Arizona, exterior front view, postcard Description An account of the resource Photograph postcard of the Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona Arizona, Home of the Spiritual Life Institute, Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koppes, Neil Subject The topic of the resource Church buildings United States Highway 89 Postcards Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Neil Koppes Photography Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Sedona (Arizona) Coconino County (Arizona) Arizona United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 AZ 006 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1AZ_006 https://highway89.org/files/original/0136abd11528120deff86fa23446bf5c.pdf c9d6fd6e7db3caf0ecb26047b8d0435d PDF Text Text �CHAPEL OF THE HOLY CROSS Sedona, Arizona Home of the Spiritual Life Institute Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig PLACE STAMP HERE POST CARD '" 0. '" 0. o '" z '" Photograph by Neil Koppes 52329 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1759">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1759</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at:<a> https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Height Height of digital item in pixels 2203 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3415 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 600 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 538865105 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 8166519 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona, Arizona, exterior back view, postcard Description An account of the resource Photograph postcard of the Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona Arizona, Home of the Spiritual Life Institute, Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koppes, Neil Subject The topic of the resource Church buildings United States Highway 89 Postcards Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Neil Koppes Photography Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Sedona (Arizona) Coconino County (Arizona) Arizona United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 AZ 007 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1AZ_007 https://highway89.org/files/original/5eb578c8e74bf5cc791709adc3e7c8d9.pdf 8eea520138b98d735380ba1556c78b0e PDF Text Text �CHAPEL OF THE HOLY CROSS Sedona, Arizona Hom e of the Spiritual Life In stitute Memorial to Marguerite an d Luci en Brunswig PLACE STAMP HERE POST CARD z '" Photograph by Neil Koppes 51329 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1762">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1762</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Height Height of digital item in pixels 3392 Width Width of digital item in pixels 2226 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 600 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 556574912 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 7655745 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona, Arizona, interior view, postcard Description An account of the resource Photograph postcard of the Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona Arizona, Home of the Spiritual Life Institute, Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koppes, Neil Subject The topic of the resource Church buildings United States Highway 89 Postcards Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Neil Koppes Photography Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Sedona (Arizona) Coconino County (Arizona) Arizona United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 AZ 008 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1AZ_008 https://highway89.org/files/original/a3383fdb6003d97b55d3efce03c9fdba.pdf a8a7a7092eb5561e0957ee56bb69ecdf PDF Text Text �CHAPEL Of THE HOLY CROSS Sedona, Arizona Home of the Spiritual Life Institute Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig PLACE STAMP HERE ~ .<:: 0. ;-. '" .s o .<:: 0.. ., '" 0. 0. o '" 'iii z Photograph by Neil Koppes 56329 POST CARD � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1765">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1765</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Height Height of digital item in pixels 3403 Width Width of digital item in pixels 2215 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 600 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example RGB Checksum 3403756945 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 7716571 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona, Arizona, interior window view, postcard Description An account of the resource Photograph postcard of the Chapel of the Holy Cross, Sedona Arizona, Home of the Spiritual Life Institute, Memorial to Marguerite and Lucien Brunswig. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koppes, Neil Subject The topic of the resource Church buildings United States Highway 89 Postcards Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographic postcards Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Neil Koppes Photography Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Sedona (Arizona) Coconino County (Arizona) Arizona United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 AZ 009 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0031_Bx1AZ_009 https://highway89.org/files/original/402e7825a23f0de91550986b0410f213.jpg 2696752400b14ab61ac00e8b1feec7e9 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 3 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 jpg Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Coal Miners Description An account of the resource Coal miners visiting Lagoon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon001.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/d971bbd45031b15566cea97939aad5f9.jpg 9987267356766667ae70b4533cbbd080 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Beach Description An account of the resource Young ladies at Lagoon Beach Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon002.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/c34f367e9118da448f97c60e9698ac6b.jpg bd88a705769fc260a277f8a7de9fee14 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches by 3 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Midway at Lagoon Description An account of the resource Midway at Lagoon Park Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon003.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/b7d90e31d5040327274ab2930c213048.jpg f5ae85d452582d0f0a80cf848d68e3a1 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Grounds Description An account of the resource Lagoon Grounds Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon004.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/8b009f40ff687a0146119edd803fa272.jpg f54db9354b325fa4fef0e7ddb8de0a96 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Well Description An account of the resource A photograph showing the well on Lagoon grounds Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon005.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/ee30fd4115d7d06ddf59cd84c30a6718.jpg 0a3b37b8600601e18d13ef21000a88e3 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches by 3 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Swimming Pools Description An account of the resource Swimming pools and motor boat run at Lagoon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon006.jpg Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/b1359e82b57ac91ce40fd13a36ccf183.jpg a407fb670d322cb4bfbeea881ad6bbb0 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches by 3 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon parking Lot Description An account of the resource Parking near the horse racing track at lgaoon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon007.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/d1e8d9eea175249f574e3e330a8c4aab.jpg dd68cf50e18ed61c550aa2a2ca470e48 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Fun House Description An account of the resource Fun house at Lagoon Park Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon008.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/135559b7f1b1ad0ea736c00edfd35ba0.jpg bb64b4af3d1ba8258327c74fd052c4dd Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Grounds Amusement Park Description An account of the resource Grounds at Lagoon Park Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon009.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/f7fa742b017e54f0f5decd8cb242d34a.jpg 14b786ffb2523aec7cce5c5c001d5067 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lagoon Motor Boats Description An account of the resource Motor Boats at Lagoon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon010.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/101f287cb31436cd2983e79a09e137a3.jpg b60dddb4c8d07af2fe25a1da2808c55b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 3 inches by 2 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horse Races at Lagoon Description An account of the resource A view of horse races from the stands at Lagoon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon011.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/918b54749ef269faecb8066e6fd991d8.jpg 2f4b330ea464da7cb176f29ef4742699 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ayraud riding Baby Doll Description An account of the resource Jockey R. Ayraud riding Baby Doll in a Lagoon Horse Race. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927-09-05 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, P 51 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/photograph/p51.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon012.jpg https://highway89.org/files/original/d97c9d9a2b713b1123deaee3a583bf06.jpg 249f2c7fdc4de2d4653e7f6740a70a4a Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dye riding Doctor Shot Description An account of the resource Jockey L. Dye riding Doctor Shot in a Lagoon horse race Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927-09-15 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, P 51 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/photograph/p51.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon013.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/35289ed1fe6a6f33df9d72b4ecc5b2cc.jpg 9cf985c57df0da2664ddd3c39cead90b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fredrick riding Fair Trial Description An account of the resource Jockey J. Fredrick riding Fair Trial in a Lagoon horse race Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927-09-20 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, P 51 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/photograph/p51.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon014.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/cb67680f6b05a4d89e2c0f65839de23b.jpg f252f7d39d9ae8197ae1cd737773849d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ayraud riding John A. Scott Jr. Description An account of the resource Jockey R. Ayraud riding John A. Scott, Jr. in a Lagoon Horse Race. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927-09-05 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, P 51 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/photograph/p51.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon015.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/f7b29ca9981651c1f00fd168f617548e.jpg 91f2495b842d97040a8930d8340fc963 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fredrick riding Fair Trial standing Description An account of the resource Jockey J. Fredrick riding Fair Trial in a Lagoon horse race Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927-09-20 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, P 51 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/photograph/p51.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon016.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/31fd7a515d8de23808265e0e9529853d.jpg 281c3e08d22fe95a7ce0aa93ef63c5df Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 5 inches by 7 inches Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 400 Conversion Specs Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-01-23 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Youth swimming Description An account of the resource Youth swimming at Lagoon Park Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs; Black and white photographs; Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920-1930 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1930; 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image;StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context wsu_lagoon021.jpg Amusement Parks Highway 89 Lagoon https://highway89.org/files/original/c4c26f7154a62776f62d4a46b8e2e669.jpg efb595554a50203febc1aa5ed30cab4d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/148">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/148</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Second Dam up Logan Canyon, Utah, ca. 1915 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Second Dam, ca. 1915. Photo by Peter Larsen. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) mounted on board Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Larsen, Peter Subject The topic of the resource Logan River Second Dam (Utah)--Photographs Dams--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan River Second Dam (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2889 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2889 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1915 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0ba881a3415a2a550f877945268ab86f.pdf c5beb262f01c16344b905349b9f344ec PDF Text Text October 22, 1987 Mr. Lukez: We spoke on the telephone this summer about the proposed highway through Logan Canyon. You subsequently asked for copies of legislation that had changed Interstate design standards in order to address environmental concerns. I've enclosed copies of the two instances where an actual law was passed. I also asked FHWA for examples where they had made administrative changes in design standards for environmental reasons. They gave me the following examples: Projects where designs were down scoped including reduction of lanes but not below 4 lanes": -- 1-476 in Philadelphia -- 1-279 in Pittsburgh --1-676 in Philadelphia --1-66 in Washington, D.C. Projects where designs were revised to include cut and cover requirements because of environmental reasons include: 1-10 in Phoenix 1-90 in Seattle 1-696 in Detroit 1-78 in New Jersey I hope that this information is helpful and apologize that it took so long. � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/141">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/141</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 3146272681 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 483386 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Jean Launer to Rudy Lukez, October 22, 1987 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Jean Launer to Rudy Lukez giving examples of projects in other states where administrative changes in design standards were changed for environmental reasons. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Launer, Jean Subject The topic of the resource Environmental policy Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-10-22 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan (Utah) Utah United States Cache County (Utah) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986 COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 29 Folder 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB29_Fd6_Item 6.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/4aead02edbd3e75ba1a5985a07af1dbc.pdf 4c56dbacfded7d11ebeadc6a0e47dc55 PDF Text Text u.s. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION IN REPLY REFER TO: .1 have I, rDvi r~0 ~ ·I ~as::;. Wl r>.~ I pl j'c..t . .· � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/126">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/126</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 172972509 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 444698 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from K.P. Lautenbach to Brian Beard, December 18, 1979 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Keith P. Lautenbach to Brian Beard of the Sierra Club in response to Beard's previous correspondence about the FHWA's compliance with NEPA and other agency regulations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lautenbach, Keith P. Subject The topic of the resource Environmental policy Government agencies Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Administrative records Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Colorado. Department of Transportation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-12-18 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIIIBox 28 Folder 8 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB28_Fd8_Page_5.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/c2655cf3f9b4674feb9edff3c00e94c0.pdf 4f27031cc2004e2a88dab133bddd15ca PDF Text Text u.s. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION REGION EIGHT 555 Zang Street P. O. Box 25246 Denver, Colorado 80225 December 18, 1979 eMr . Brian Beard, President Sierra Club, Utah Chapter 93 East 1st South Logan, Utah 84321 IN REP L Y REFER T O: HED- 08 Dear M Beard : r. In your letters of November 20 and 21 , 1979, you requested copies of Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) regulations for implementing the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) . Also , you requested support documentation for determining that highway construction activities proposed for Logan Canyon , Utah , w ill have no significant impacts. Regarding the request for agency implementing regulations, we have enclosed copies of DOT Order 5610 . 1C : Procedures for considering Environmental Impacts , and the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Federal H ghway Administration 23 CFR 771 as contained i n the i October 15 , 1979 Federal Register . For all NEPA- related activities and documents processed by FHWA after November 30 , 1979, there must be compliance with the CEQ regulations and DOT Order. Also , the proposed FHWA procedur~s should be used as supplemental guidance . Concerning the Logan Canyon construction activities , ~"e are enclosing a December 10 , 1979 memorandum from Federal Highway Division Adminis trator Bohn to UDOT Director Hurley rescinding FHWA concurrence in the preliminary Category III assignment to th i s project . We believe the information provided addresses your concerns . If you have any further questions , please feel free to contact Administrator Bohn or our office . Sincerely yours , r -$di?/~d Daniel Watt Regional Federal H ghwway Administrator i � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/162">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/162</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 2848903558 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 497059 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Keith Lautenbach to Brian Beard, December 18, 1979 (with signature) Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Keith Lautenbach (on behalf of Daniel Watt) to Brian Beard, (with Lautenbach's signature) in response to Beard's previous correspondence about the FHWA's compliance with NEPA and other agency regulations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lautenbach, Keith P. Subject The topic of the resource Environmental policy Government agencies Logan Canyon (Utah) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Administrative records Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Colorado. Department of Transportation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-12-18 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Folder 8 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB28_Fd8_Page_9.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/5d42e9411fe17f9fd3872bea921a6da6.mp3 3cebf608b6ac4373b04f76c89d8ed02d https://highway89.org/files/original/73a6931bb0b2e17df2147c0682e319b9.pdf d833298321ba77377d1b2e6270e11701 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Janet Quinney Lawson Place of Interview: Ms. Lawson’s home; Salt Lake City, Utah Date of Interview: April 28, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole and Barbara Middleton Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Brad Cole, February 2009; Randy Williams, 25 February 2009 and 14 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at her family’s summer home at Bear Lake and at family members’ homes in Cache Valley, Utah. She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah and in Cache Valley and Bear Lake. Reference:   BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JL = Janet Quinney Lawson NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: [This is Barbara Middleton of the] Natural Resources at Utah State University. [I am] here with Brad Cole. Cole [interviewer] is the Director of Special Collections at USU Libraries. And we are here with Janet Quinney Lawson in her home in Salt Lake City, on a beautiful spring day. This is Monday, April 28th [2008] and it’s about 2-2:15 in the afternoon. So Janet, if you would please say your full name and when and where you were born. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  1   �JL: My full name is Janet Quinney Lawson. And I was born here in 1922 at the LDS Hospital, as I recall. BM: In Salt Lake City? JL: Uh-huh. I guess I was born there. BM: Can I ask you, just to start off would you be willing to share the earliest memories of your father? JL: Yeah, I was kind of scared of him! He was not a child’s best friend or “daddy.” He was stern and he lived and he made you kind of tow the mark. As I grew older I began to appreciate him. He was a superman. I used to run the rivers with him. BC: What was his name? JL: My father? BC: Yes. JL: S. J. Quinney. Seymour Joseph Quinney. BM: And running rivers – what kind of rivers are we talking about? JL: Oh! Colorado and Hell’s Canyon and all the rivers of the west. We used to run them in row boats. It was great fun; I loved it. And we would do that and pull out wherever we pulled out. I know I went down the river when I was – gosh, I guess six months or more pregnant with Peter (my youngest son). But I didn’t tell Dad and I wore, you know a blouse that hung out. And he didn’t even [know]. He wondered, I think he said, on occasions. But boy when I told him driving out of Preston, poor father! It was a real blow! Now he wanted to know if Fred knew, and I said, “Well of course.” “Did your mother know?” and I said, “Yes.” “Did she approve?” I said, “Sure she did, she thought I was alright to do that.” And I loved it! It was great fun and I didn’t have any problem. We went down Hell’s Canyon and came out at Preston maybe? BC: Maybe Lewiston area? JL: Yeah! Way up there – BC: Right. JL: On the Oregon – yeah we pulled out there and then we drove home. We brought a car the bank had repossessed up in Preston, I guess, or some place for Aunt Eve who was Bammie Eccles’ sister and never had any children and so she adopted all of Bammie’s children and all of her grandchildren. And we were very close and she used to stay at our house. Her husband was an engineer on the railroad and so he was out of town a lot. And Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  2   �she used to come up and stay with Bammie in Logan. Then she would come back here and she would come up to the house. She lived out on the west side way out by Wasatch High School and then she’d come in and up to the house and stay. And it was great fun, she was a lovely person. She finally devoted a lot of her time to Bammie up in Logan – she wasn’t really sick but anyway, she was getting old (in those days). They were half sisters – same father, different mothers. So that’s what we did. BM: So speaking of mothers, what is your earliest memory of your mom? JL: My word! [Speaking to herself] Earliest memory [of] mom. I don’t know! I guess running a pretty tight ship when I was little and not even in school yet. But I had a friend – a life-long friend that lived across the street: Kay Henderson. She was my dear friend. We used to go to school together. She’d go with us. She came from a rather upbeat, youngest Dr. Dave’s family who was an eye, ear, nose and throat [doctor] in Salt Lake. Kay and I – well we just plain grew up together. She didn’t have quite as athletic of a background. She did fine, but she came from a family of kind of a bunch of kids and they couldn’t spend the money for ski clothing and so on. We remained friends all through our lives. She died three years ago in Cape Cod. It was a good, long-standing relationship I must say. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And it was fun to go over there because it was a big family. And I had only my brother Dave who couldn’t be bothered much with me which was fine. But growing up in the neighborhood but it was fun. BM: Was she someone that went with you when you traveled to Bear Lake or Logan? JL: Kay? BM: Um-hmm. JL: Oh yeah! She went to Bear Lake. Every year she would come up and go with us. They were sort of, you know, more religious. Her mother didn’t like her to miss church, but she did. My mother would talk her into it and say that she could go to church at Bear Lake. I don’t remember if she ever did or not. Maybe we did a few times. I can’t remember really. That wasn’t one of my great points in growing up. BM: Would you tell us a little bit about some of your early memories of Bear Lake and traveling over there? JL: Oh. Wow. First thing that happened was that we had a seven passenger Buick. Now that’s a pretty big car and it had little jumpseats. But we always had our dog, Tip, and I had the cat, Tawny, and three kittens usually. And we would pile into the car and we’d chug along and go up to Logan. And then we’d spend the night at Bammie’s house—Bammie Eccles’ not Bammie Quinney’s—but Bammie Eccles’. Then we’d get up the next Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  3   �morning and mother would drive us [o]n that old, broken down road that was a one-way road really, you know. People just didn’t go up to Bear Lake that way except people in Logan maybe, but we did! We’d go up there and haul in. That time we stayed up in Idaho – my first recollection of staying at Bear Lake was in Idaho. Mother rented the Gray house. Mr. Gray was the First Security Bank’s president in Montpelier, Idaho. Yeah, that’s how it was. He was there and we rented this house because by now they’d fallen upon hard times, then they went through a depression. The bank went bust, or whatever. It was kind of tough. But anyway, we rented that house for quite a few years. Then mother went out buzzing around one day and the next thing she did was come home and say, “I bought a house.” So down at Ideal Beach was a house that was owned by a Mr. Boyer who was a very successful (I don’t know what he was!) man – businessman. That went kind of belly-up and he had to sell the house. And here was this house that was completely furnished, lock, stock and barrel–silver and china and bedding and more bedding. And then Dad bought the lot, finally he talked Sister Boyer (maybe; Sister somebody) – and he sweettalked her. On part of that lot there was a lumber mill. And they’d cut the logs which was fine except all the sawdust they pushed into the lake. Well that doesn’t deteriorate really. So we had many years where every time we’d go down everybody would take a bucket of some sort. And we’d haul out the logging – BM: Sawdust? JL: Yeah. Well finally we got rid of it, I guess. Of course that was many a year ago. Mother came home and Dad nearly had a fit! But what she got that house for was—lock, stock and barrel. I think it was something like $800. It was just ridiculous! And it was the house we had. Dad, finally when Mother told him and he went to see what was going on, he knew the piece of ground. I don’t know what he did. A lawyer did that as a “Thank you very much people.” And so he was in good standing with the locals. They just got out and they cut that house in three parts and they moved it! And it wasn’t out that much. It was just amazing! I remember when they did it and I remember Mother went up to Bear Lake. And that fireplace of course was stone from across the lake. It was a big hole because they had to knock it down when they moved the house. So all Mother could see was this hole and oh she went into great sobs of mourning that the house would never be the same. Well of course it is the same and much better, and added on to, to some degree. We added on—we changed the kitchen quite a bit and added another bedroom and bath back there because Mother always had somebody to go to help. That extended the kitchen on out further and behind the kitchen was another bedroom. BM: Um-hmm. Now Ideal Beach is – when I look at this map – Ideal Beach is south of the Junction coming over to Garden City, but you were saying you were north to start off with? JL: Oh no, no, no. Here we are. Let’s see. [Looking at a map] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  4   �BM: Here’s Ideal. JL: Here’s Ideal. We’re down there to – what does that say? BM: That says Ideal Beach, Sweet Water Marina. So they’re just showing – JL: There, yeah well here’s – BM: That’s the Highway rest stop down there. So right around Rendezvous Beach State Park, which is very historic. JL: Yeah. We moved it down about 2 miles that way and about one mile from Garden City. BM: My goodness! And you literally picked up the house and moved it? JL: Yeah, it was just crazy what they did! BC: About what year was that, do you remember? JL: Well I can think, but wait a minute. Let’s see – I think I was 16 maybe; 15 or 16. Yeah, so how old would that make me? Since I’m 86. BC: So it would have been about 1937. JL: Yeah, something. BC: You said you spent a few years in Montpelier [Idaho]? Would that have been in the early 1930s? When you lived in Montpelier and rented Mr. Gray’s house? JL: No, that was in Fish Haven! BC: Fish Haven? JL: Down on the lake. That was their summer home! BC: Oh, okay. So he lived in Montpelier, but also had a house [on the lake] – okay. JL: Yeah they lived in Montpelier – Banker Gray – and had a beautiful home there. And there was Grove and Fred. Fred was the oldest son, then they had Grove and then they had a sister. What was her name? She was a cripple; she was born with faulty legs or something, I don’t remember what. She was a lovely person but she was certainly incapacitated. Times were hard. They opened up this fox farm in Fish Haven—Grove and Fred. Fred first and then he went off and went into business and then Grove took it over. And they raised these [foxes], they were a big thing in those days I guess. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  5   �BM: And they were fox they were raising? JL: Yeah, they were foxes. BM: And what were they raising them for? JL: For the fur. BM: Okay. How interesting. JL: Yeah, they really would. Fur coats; not really coats so much, it would take too many foxes. Oh, I remember. I never went down there though when they were slaughtering the foxes. That was not my cup of tea. Nor go out – yeah I did. I went out with them when they would go buy an old horse that was tired and slaughter it to feed the foxes. And of course you had to be down there every day. They had to eat. It was fun, I liked it. It’s nothing anybody else would like, but I did. Getting all bloody! Mother used to just shake her head and say, “My goodness, what have I got here?” See I was a little, bitty kid. I wasn’t very big at all. I mean structurally I was very small, but boy I was a terror I guess! Poor thing. BM: Now did you go over there winter as well as summer? JL: Huh-uh. No, never did. BM: So mostly summer? JL: Yeah. What we usually did was plan to go up there on, well around the 4th of July and then we’d close it up to some degree and get somebody to come in and drain the water; which we still do. But things are changing up there; very definitely changing. And I can envision–we’re not building anymore house. Rick was talking, I know, about building on to the bedroom wing and putting in another few bedrooms and a bath. I think we kind of decided that wasn’t a good plan. Anyway, I don’t think it’s happening, and it’s not my problem. I’m not going to be here to run that. BM: So when you say, “things are changing up there,” what do you mean? What kinds of things did you see change? JL: Oh! Oh the building is simply incredible that’s going on. And across the street and on up Hodge’s Canyon it’s all subdivided and people are building houses up on the hillside. And then they come down and go probably over to Ideal Beach, Bluewater Beach and go on to swim or put their boats in or whatever they have. BM: Was that something that you did when you were a child, boating? JL: Yeah. Dad had the only sailboat on the lake I guess, for years. And then we also had an outboard motor boat and then we got – well, let’s see. What have we got up there now? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  6   �Peter has a Hobie Cat up there. (Peter is my youngest son.) And he has this Hobie Cat and he also has – yeah I think he’s got a motor boat too. BM: So sailing was something that you learned from your father? JL: What? BM: Sailing was something you learned from your father? JL: Yeah. BM: Did your mother also sail? JL: No, she didn’t. That wasn’t her cup of [tea]– she’d go out there sometimes with Dad. They’d go out alone and just sail. Dad would sail very quietly, not too far out from the shore. But, yeah she went out boating. She went out boating – I had a boat too. That was a power boat. You know that lake isn’t constant. It varies – they pumped it out for irrigation upstream. Well, they don’t want it anymore upstream. Anyway, last year they pumped because the pumps would run out of – there was no water for them. And now they’re going to let that go back. They’ve sold it to, I don’t remember the name of the people they sold it to, but they are not interested in alfalfa which is what they used the water for. [Looking out the window] Oh, whoa. Looking out there at the sky, can you see? BM: Oh yeah; leaving a jet trail. JL: You see that? Yeah. Big old thing going across. Dad had a lot of foresight. However people don’t know and we don’t tell them that we have as much land as we have. But we’re well-protected on the north side and the south side of our property. And it of course goes to the children and I guess they like it. I think they’ll use it. [Speaking to somebody else] Who’s that? BM: Sounds like somebody is talking on the phone. JL: Maybe. And I don’t know, I just had some rare old times and fun times up there; very happy memories. It [Bear Lake property] has this great, big screened-in porch that goes all around half the house and the dining room table is outside. And there is a couch out there and Grandfather Eccles’ rocking chair, old leather rocking chair. It just has lots of memories. We have a book that we keep and people write in it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  7   �BM: Like the visitors that come? JL: Yeah, yeah. And it’s nice and it’s fun. And it’s fun to look back and it’s fun to look and see when I decided I better go home is when I was going to have that baby. And I did. BM: [Laughing] Now which child was that then? JL: It was Peter. BM: Peter? Okay. JL: Yeah. See, he’s 10 years younger. He was really an after-thought. He wasn’t a happenstance – he was planned on and conceived. And he went down Hell’s Canyon with me unborn. I didn’t tell Mother about it. I told Dad about it on the way home. And he said, “Does your mother know?” And I said, “Yeah.” He said, “I thought you were looking a little dumpy.” Yeah, that was May and Peter was born in August. Yeah, I was well along. I didn’t care, that was fun. I skied and I did everything! BM: Could you tell us a little bit about your skiing? JL: Well – BM: Where did you start? JL: There is Ecker Hill up Parley’s Canyon; Dave and Dad got involved in that through the jumping. Dad got interested in judging and got interested in the Norwegian people and he judged all the time up there, ski-jumping. And that is how Dave got going. I didn’t ever go off Ecker Hill—I was too little. I went off Rasmussen’s Hill which was down the way. But heavens! I didn’t even have bindings then. I think we took inner tubes and cut them and put them around the toe and around the outside of the toe and around the back. Those were our bindings. That was many a year ago! BM: That was inner tubing on wood? JL: Well the inner tubing I used for bindings – BM: Oh! JL: BM: They were like the old wood skis with a toe strap. That was it. And then you got a hold of that and then you got a hold of the inner tube and cut a piece about that thick and put it over your toe and over the toe of your boot and back over your heel and off you went on Rasmussen’s Jump. And it was a scaffold that was built and came down and landed on the hill and ran out. Oh, it was fun! How did you get up to the top? JL: Climbed. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  8   �BM: On snowshoes or boots? JL: No, no. We just climbed on our feet on the little hill I jumped. But the boys, the big jumpers – Al Bangerter and his tribe and us – they just put their skis over their shoulder and walked up to the top. BM: Hmm. JL: Boy am I thirsty. Do you want some water or something? BM: Actually, I’m fine. BC: I’m fine right now. JL: Are you? Alright. BM: So those are the days before ski lifts and riding on top of the mountain. JL: Dad did the first lift in Alta – Collins lift – he did that. I mean when I say he did it – he got 10 business friends of his to each put in x number of dollars (which I don’t know). Ecker Hill was there, but it was pretty rough and I think they used it, but not for tournaments and things. But he did. They built that and set it up. Now how does that work? I was thinking that it was the biggest ski jump in North America. Whether it was there or whether it was – I don’t know – in the Northwest. I don’t know. I would have to research that and look it up. But there wasn’t an awful lot of ski jumping even. But then I got my first pair of skis. I was little – I didn’t grow very much. [Tape 1 of 2: B] JL: Celeste can get you something. These caregivers I have are just wonderful. BM: Oh, I bet. It’s nice to have people here. JL: Yeah. Well I didn’t have them here except during the day, but then I fell a year ago in Moab and cracked it! BM: So now you have someone with you day and night. JL: I have somebody, yeah. I have two of them that are here day and night. BM: That’s great. JL: Yeah it is! I like it and they seem to like it, so. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  9   �BM: JL: So let’s go back to something you were saying. I am trying to picture the trip when you were a young girl from, not just Salt Lake to Logan, but Logan over – To Bear Lake? BM: -- to Bear Lake. I’m trying to picture that road. JL: Well at first it was even just a dirt road. Mother in the seven passenger car and the cat and the dog and a couple of kittens and Dave and I was there and BM was there I guess (or some household help). And we’d go to Logan and stay overnight at Bammie’s house – Grandmother Eccles’ house – and go chuckety, chuckety, chuck the next day. And sometimes your old car would heat up and you would have to sit there and wait for it to cool down so you could go on [laughing]. But we always stopped at Rick Springs. BM: Oh, sure! JL: That was very different then than it is now. Because, I don’t know what they’ve done but you can’t even hardly see it without getting out and walking! Well, I mean it wasn’t that way in those days. BM: So you got there and you parked your car, and what did you do at Ricks Springs? JL: Oh, we’d have a drink or have a sandwich or have some water. It was just halfway and it was good and it was fun and it was nice. And we always did that. Now I flew past – well I haven’t been up through Logan Canyon because it’s been all under construction and a mess. And then going in Roy into Ogden – that highway is just one big, bloody mess and I haven’t gone there. I don’t when that’s ever going to get done. And I don’t know when they’re going to quit monkeying with that road up the canyon. BM: Well they just did some bridge improvements, and that was quite – JL: Oh yeah. BM: -- quite a bit as far as stopping traffic one-way, and. JL: Yeah, because that one bridge goes over a great, big – BM: Oh, that’s the large one on the curve? JL: Yeah. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And I don’t know. I haven’t been up Logan Canyon—I don’t remember if I even went up last year because I just get on and zoom up here to Evanston and then- BM: So that’s your new route? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  10   �JL: Yeah. BM: Over 80 to Evanston and then up? JL: BM: Um-hmm. Um-hmm. Now when you went through the earlier part when you went through Logan Canyon, did you ever go to some of the places like Ephraim’s Grave (the big bear), or ? JL: Uh-huh. And they had, what an MIA Home or something? BM: What is that? JL: Up at the first dam or something? BM: Oh! JL: No, second dam I guess. And we used to cross the bridge and go up there and there was – I don’t know and MIA. Maybe it wasn’t, maybe it was something else. I don’t know. BM: Hmm. JL: But anyway it was a camp and the kids used to go up there for, you know, camping out – like Girl Scouts, only they were something else in those days. BC: So when you say, “MIA,” do you mean Mutual Improvement Association? JL: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. [Mostly likely talking about Camp Lomia, past 3rd Dam a few miles.] BM: So was that possibly the Scout Camp at St. Anne’s? BC: Might be, I’m not sure. JL: What? BM: Was it St. Anne’s? JL: What ? BM: The camp you’re talking about? JL: I don’t know. BM: Hmm. It was on the right hand side as you go up the canyon? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  11   �JL: You went over the dam there, which they used, and the water that came out of there they dammed it up. So, I don’t know what it was called. And besides it’s all different now. Utah State has that big forestry place up there too. BM: Um-hmm. Have you been there? JL: Yeah. That’s Mr. Dad’s. I said, “Now you quit that!” He said, “Wouldn’t you rather have me interested in it than somebody else?” I said, “Yes I would.” BM: So this is the forestry camp? JL: BM: Uh-huh. That’s on the right-hand side as you go up. JL: Um-hmm. BM: And was the – let’s see was it 1938 was the first summer camp up there? 1936? Somewhere in that time? JL: Um-hmm. BM: And so what is your dad have to do with that? JL: Well, he gave them the money to start the training camp up there. BM: Oh, okay. JL: And bring the animals and so on. BM: Um-hmm. JL: So that’s what he did. BM: It is a very important place for a lot of the foresters to get their start. JL: Oh I think so. BM: Yeah. JL: A lot of foresters. Um-hmm. BM: Also fire. As far as training young men to help with forest fires. JL: Now, that I didn’t know. But that’s interesting. It’s a good place, should be. BM: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  12   �JL: I don’t know why I don’t. I think they have one cabin up there that they save for Dad and Mother or for me or somebody to go up and stay overnight. I think I told somebody; who would I have told – BM: Was it Thad maybe? JL: Uh-huh, probably Thad. BM: So you have gone up and camped up at the Forestry Camp? JL: Yeah! BM: Oh, alright. Because there is one building that is the older building. JL: Yeah! BM: With all the pictures in it and the stove – JL: Right, right. BM: Okay. JL: What’s that called? BM: Well that is the old Forestry Camp CCC building. JL: Oh yeah. BM: And it’s the oldest building – JL: There. BM: It’s one of the oldest buildings there. And then there’s a larger dorm, which sleeps about 30 people. JL: There? BM: Um-hmm. JL: Yeah, that’s right. I do remember that. BM: Do you also remember – you know, part of that camp burned. JL: Oh, it certainly did! I had forgotten that. It really burned. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  13   �BM: The kitchen – the lodge. JL: Oh, that was – they had to rebuild it totally didn’t they? BM: We haven’t rebuilt it yet. JL: Oh, I thought we had. BM: No, not yet. We’re looking, we’re hoping. We’re hoping. But right now it’s an open area; there’s a small trailer that was there that serviced some of the work, but nothing like the beautiful lodge that you must remember. JL: Yeah, although it was – BM: The dining hall – JL: Yeah. It was kind of little, as I recall. BM: Was it? JL: Yeah, it wasn’t like – in comparison to maybe the Girl Scout camp down here or – BM: Camp Cloud Rim? JL: Rim. BM: Right, right. JL: Camp Cloud Rim. BM: Which was also a CCC building. JL: Well I guess those lakes [cabins?] were owned by people, you know. They weren’t just sitting there. I’m trying to think who – John Wallace; the Wallace family had up there. And the Brimhall family; and I don’t know. Of course they gave it over to the Girl Scouts and now they use it and have added onto it even since I was there. BM: Um-hmm. JL: For the dedication of the building or whatever. BM: And that was back in the late 1990s. JL: I guess, yeah. BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  14   �JL: I guess it was. BM: Yeah. JL: Did they name it for me or something? BM: They did! Your name is on that building. [The Janet Quinney Lawson camp?] JL: I just live in horror. [Laughing] JL: I say, “I’m giving you the money and you’re to go ahead, but don’t be putting my name.” There it was. BM: [Laughing] It’s on a building on campus too, up at Utah State. JL: Yes it was! What was it – oh that little Quonset hut. Yeah! That’s a great place. BM: That’s a great building though. [Ms. Lawson was recognized by USU in 2004 during the dedication of a building named in her honor. The Janet Quinney Lawson building houses USU's Utah Climate Center and Remote Sensing/Geographic Information Systems Laboratory along with other services.] JL: Oh, it is! I’ve been there when little kids have been there. One of them really attached himself to me; poor little things. BM: Was that the Adaptive Technology part where they’re in the basement there? JL: Yeah. BM: Is there a lot of children in that program? JL: Yeah that are learning to speak or walk, or – yeah, they’re physically limited. BM: Right. JL: But it’s a great thing that they can do what they’re doing in that Quonset hut. BM: Um-hmm. And they help a lot of children get around. JL: Oh, I know. I just know they do. And that cute thing out in front of the Edith Bowen – is it the Edith Bowen and Emma Eccles Jones, are they here? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  15   �BM: They are. Emma Eccles Jones Building is the education building and then Edith Bowen is the lab school, which is right next door. JL: Yeah. Is it west or is it –? BM: Edith Bowen is east – JL: Yeah, it’s east – BM: And then there is a sculpture – JL: Yeah, that’s a Van Dam BM: Right, right. With the two children and then the – JL: Yeah, then, uh-huh. And then Aunt Em’s building. BM: Right. JL: Dad’s building is there too; Dad and Mother’s. BM: Well that would be the College of Natural Resources building. JL: That’s right. BM: Right, right. And that’s right behind, that’s right to the south – JL: South. BM: Of your Quonset hut, that you call it. JL: That’s right. Well, that’s what it is! BM: It is! And you know there are still folks that come on campus that say, “I remember when that was a Quonset hut.” And it kind of still looks like a Quonset hut! JL: I think it does. Yeah, I do. BM: It has the remote sensing lab in it now; where they do a lot of the geographic maps. JL: Oh there? BM: Um-hmm. There are several entities in that building. JL: Besides the little kids? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  16   �BM: Um-hmm. JL: Oh. Well I just know that those little children – it’s wonderful when they can finally get them out. They’re kind of timid about everything of course, because they’ve been so protected; but, what a break for the parents and the children themselves to be able to get out. BM: And it’s also a great training center for the students. JL: Terrific! Just marvelous! BM: There are a lot of classes that go through there. JL: Well there’s kind of a lot of Eccles/Quinney stuff up there somehow. BM: There sure is! Now speaking of USU and getting back to Bear Lake – if you’re down near Ideal Beach, aren’t you also close to the USU – JL: Yes! That Dad built? BM: Oh! JL: I think Dad built that – gave them the money to build it. Yeah, it’s just down, maybe, oh, maybe three-quarters of a mile on the road. BM: Um-hmm. JL: But you can walk it. Of course now let’s hope that they’ll be good enough to – can’t I get you anything? I feel so – BM: No, I’m fine. JL: I feel terrible. [Ms Lawson is concerned for her guest’s needs.] BC: Oh, we’re fine. BM: When you were there, you talked about sailing and you talked about swimming. Were there also holidays, like Raspberry Days? JL: Oh yes! And I remember when the raspberries weren’t [growing] because they got diseased! A few years ago actually, that was. Oh yes, indeed! BM: Hmm. So what did you do for Raspberry Days? JL: Bought them and ate them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  17   �[Laughing] BC: Well did they have – when you were a little girl, did they have raspberries then? Or did that came later? JL: No, I think that came later. I think that was started by the Hodges family and their boys. And they planted those and then psh! I don’t know what happened. They got a disease though, and it really – it was something they couldn’t spray and kill and have it alright. It imbedded itself and would appear on the next year if you planted them. So, I don’t know. And now – I don’t know what they’re doing now. They’re behind that – what’s that called? That new place by the marina, only on the other side of the road? BM: Oh that large development? JL: Yeah. And then on up and up and up and up. Yeah. And that’s all being subdivided. And honestly I think Bear Lake is seeing the best of times. It’s – I’m concerned. I think it’s just going to develop and develop and more and more and more. And people are able to get there and they’re building houses. I don’t know, Well, I’ve got enough space that I don’t need to worry too much about it. BM: When you were over there before the development, do you remember cattle or sheep, or – with those hills where the homes are going – what was that landscape like? JL: Yeah. They ran cattle up Hodges Canyon. BM: Um-hmm. JL: They could run cattle up there. And they did and I don’t know whether they still can or just don’t do it because nobody’s interested in doing that kind of thing. All those people died; faded away. Although Rula is here and Dolly is here. And Dolly has died and Rula – Dad bought the piece that goes in front of Rula’s house is on that side. And she – what did they do? They finally got her to go over to Logan to live in a place, a house, a rest home or something in the winter. Because they said they wouldn’t leave her up there in the winter anymore, she couldn’t navigate. So I don’t know. I may see her, I hope so. I’ll have to find out. BM: And who is Rula? JL: Well, she’s a neighbor on the east side. And they have a house. And Tom used to help Dad all the time with the planting of the garden vegetables and so on, and mowing and one thing or another. Well, he died and so it was Rula’s. And so she sold us this section that was theirs, adjacent to our north boundary. It’s a south boundary and it’s a lot. And there’s nothing there except, oh beautiful roses. BM: Hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  18   �JL: I don’t know, I think one day maybe one of the kids will build something there. I’ve got a few of them hanging around that are entitled to do what they want to do. BM: Okay, so who’s the other person you were talking about? Dolly was another neighbor? JL: Yeah and she was on the other side of Joel. BM: Okay. JL: And they just loved him. Oh they just did. And they just used to open our house and clean it and so on. Of course those days have gone. Dolly died a couple of years ago I guess. I believe she was a year older than I am; maybe two. And Rula is a year younger. I think she had about 12 – Grandma Hodges. And oh, did she like Joel! He could just wiggle her out of anything. [Laughing] JL: And then he would do a lot, you know, and they had legal problems. Dad would help them out. And he was very kind. And they all knew it and all loved him for it and it was beneficial to us. Because see we own – well, God I don’t know how many front feet. I don’t tell them that because they don’t tax us. It’s undeveloped. BC: Yeah. BM: Sure. JL: But Dad’s never paid taxes. It’s called wetland. And actually it is. It goes down toward the USU building. There are a couple of houses and then the building is there. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And it goes down there. BC: When you’d go up there in the summer as a young child, did your dad stay up with you for the whole summer or did he come back to Salt Lake? JL: Oh, he’d come back, you know. BC: Uh-huh. JL: I think he just felt that he had to get back home. And he’d – sometimes he would stay up an extra day or two, but he didn’t stay up like Mother did. But Mother would pack us up and go in. Of course we had Mr. Coddle then and the store and that was fine. But that’s no longer. It’s all so changed. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  19   �BC: And would you spend any time up in the mountains hiking, riding horses or anything like that? JL: Huh-uh. No, nope. I just did it on the lake. And I rode horses on the lake. BM: Huh. Now who had the horses? JL: Oh, somebody local. Yeah. I’d say one of the Hodges I suppose. Yeah, even had my little kids which weren’t so little anymore – although maybe he died. They tore – I’m so mad at them, you know? Up there across the street from my place there was that old house and then that little log cabin that was the original old house. And when they bought that land they ripped it all down! And that was a terrible thing to have done! I mean that was kind of a historical little old log cabin! BM: Did you know the people that lived there? JL: Yeah, I did. He was interested in nothing but the money. Ron Hansen was his name. But I don’t know. Things will change, there’s no question about it. Gosh! I look up there to see Dad and was sitting down on the porch that we added on outside, off the dining room – the screened in porch. And it was right after he went up there after he had surgery. BM: Hmm. So it was a place he went to recuperate and rest? JL: Uh-huh. He loved it! He just loved it. And of course anything he did was for improvement. Now if that lake will get back up, I will be ever so grateful. And it may. Because the people who bought it from Scottish Power they can’t pump it anymore. They used to pump it and pump it upstream (or downstream, whatever you want) on up into Idaho, to give the farmers more, oh what do I want? BC: For irrigation water. JL: Yeah, for other chokecherry bushes. BM: Oh. JL: And they don’t do that anymore. They haven’t run the way -- . Yeah, they used to – they’d sell the chokecherries all the time. In Garden City you’d go to the stand and buy chokecherries. BM: Huh. JL: Take them home and put them in a pot and boil them up – ooh! Good! BM: And ate them as what? As a sauce, or [unclear] JL: No. Then you strain it and take it and thicken it as a chokecherry jelly or – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  20   �BM: Sounds like one of your favorites! JL: Oh yeah! Gee it was good! BM: Huh. And so you put it on toast, or? JL: Yes! Anything you’d put jam on! It was just delicious. And those days are gone! They just are. I looked out – going up toward Logan out of Garden City – here all this is subdivided down to that place, that new – BM: That new development down there. JL: Yeah, whatever that is. And I may not live to see it, but then I may live to see some, but I guess it’s just going like crazy. BC: It is. JL: Is it? BC: Yeah, I think it’s – JL: People are buying it and building and so on. BM: And it’s a beautiful place. JL: Oh! Of course it is. It’s just lovely. And down to the boat marina. BM: Do you remember the refuge? The wildlife refuge on the north end of the lake? Was that there, or was that yet to be established? When you go past the boat marina and the state park, and you continue north – JL: Yes. BM: Towards Montpelier, around the north end is now a National Wildlife Refuge. JL: It is?! BM: Um-hmm. JL: Well, I don’t know. I’ve driven around the lake and I know people that live there. BM: I’m trying to think of the year when that was established. Because I think you would have been over there. JL: Oh, I no doubt would have! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  21   �BM: It’s waterfowl and swans. JL: It’s beautiful! It’s more at the north end than the south end. Yeah. Yeah, I know where you mean. BM: Because part of the refuge – I’m wondering if you ever swam at this beach on the north end of the lake called – North Beach State Park? Is that it? JL: What is it called? BM: The very north end of the beach – by the pump houses. JL: Yeah, by the pump house. BM: That’s a very popular swimming place. JL: Well it is for the people that are up in Montpelier and Paris and St. Charles and so on, but there are no – there are some hot springs over there too. BM: That’s right. JL: Yeah and they’ve been there forever because I was a little kid and Mother used to take us to swim in it! BM: At the hot springs? JL: Yeah! BM: Oh, really? JL: So it’s really been there forever. BC: Oh. BM: That’s a very famous hot springs place. There was a hotel there. JL: Yeah. I don’t think – yes, I guess there, but that was really in the 1800s wasn’t it? BM: Yes, the late 1800s and 1900s. JL: Yeah, I know. But Mom used to take us up there. She didn’t like us to go swimming too much because she didn’t think it was very clean. BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  22   �JL: Yeah, I don’t suppose it was. And anyway I don’t know whether there is still swimming in there or not. BM: There are still hot springs back there in that area but the building is gone. JL: But the building is gone, so nobody really swims? BM: I think only locals who really know it’s there. JL: Oh. BM: But that is more off the north east corner of the lake. JL: That’s right. BM: Back towards the Bear River and the mountains then, close to Wyoming? JL: Yeah. BM: My goodness. You really got around! Holy cow. JL: And the Nebeker Ranch, which was big and now the kids are running it again. I don’t [know] whose it is? Is it Paul? See Dad was partners with all those gentleman. Paul and – BM: Um-hmm. Partners in the law firm, you’re saying? JL: Uh-huh. BM: Right. JL: They’re all gone, but their issue is there. And I don’t know who is over in their house. I know that the gals and boys – or boy and gal – that run the wonderful little stand that do those little donuts – ummm. [Licking her lips] [Laughing] BM: Wait, what donuts are these? JL: Uh, they just fry them right there. They are just little things like that. And oh boy! Are they good! I want to go out and get them. And then they also – they had some, they showed it to me anyway, chokecherry. But that is gone – that day and era. And you know, that’s kind of too bad. BC: Yeah, it is. JL: I feel sorry about that. I used to pick them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  23   �[Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: Tape 2, side 2[1]. JL: Yes. BM: Here with Janet Quinney Lawson and we’re continuing with our Bear Lake stories. So he still sails up there? Peter? JL: Yes! And his kids; you know Peter’s kids are getting big! He married and he got these two – after he was divorced from [?] and he remarried. And he has two little kids – three and five. And that’s pretty little. They come up. They come up for a week or ten days and they just love it and we love having them. BM: Oh, I bet! JL: And it’s the way it should be used. BM: Now are they swimmers as well as sailors? JL: Oh yes! Sure are. Is the Bear Lake monster for real? BM: Ah! You remember the Bear Lake monster? JL: Oh sure! [Laughing] BM: Tell us about that. JL: I don’t – BM: I actually have that in my notes as one of the myths or legends about – JL: Yeah, it is. BM: So what did you hear about it? JL: It’s exactly it – that it would come out and you better mind your p’s and q’s or it would get you! And it was usually at dusk or after. BM: Uh-huh. What did it look like? JL: I don’t know! It sort of was large and it sort of had a long neck that would recoil in I guess and just its head would be there; or it would be out standing up. What’s he got here? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  24   �[Reading] Is the Bear Lake monster for real? Did I give you one of these? BM: No, that’s fine, you can keep that. JL: Don’t you want one? BM: Nope, that’s fine. You can keep that. JL: I’ve got more. BM: That’s okay. On the monster, have you told your new grandchildren about this? Peter’s children? JL: Yeah, Peter’s. Uh-huh, two little fellows. BM: Um-hmm. JL: Um-hmm. BM: So they know about the Bear Lake monster? JL: Oh they do! And they’re sure they saw it. And as a matter of fact sometimes, you know, the 4th of July or 24th some boats get together and make a Bear Lake monster out of it. Oh yeah, it’s fun. BM: Well you know I also wondered if you fished there because there are fish in the lake. JL: Yeah, but they’re trash fish usually, like the sucker. They’re no good eating, they’re nasty. Yeah you can go and if you’re very patient and want to do it. The trout you just can’t catch, but gradually I think it will restore itself. BM: Um-hmm. BC: What about your father? Did he fish at all? JL: Oh yes! He was a great fisherman. Not really so much there, but yeah. But he fished there, sure. But it just didn’t yield anything but carp and sucker. They were so stupid you could catch them in a net. BM: Wow. When you talk about Bear Lake – that’s a summer place and you’re a skier so you’re coming down here to the Salt Lake City front – where was Beaver Mountain with the development of that ski resort when you were a young child? JL: It wasn’t. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  25   �BM: It wasn’t there. JL: No. That area was called Beaver Mountain. But I remember when it opened. BM: You do? JL: And I remember the people – I can’t tell you now, I just can’t – who opened it. BM: Were those the Seeholzers? JL: Yes, maybe. BM: Okay. JL: Maybe. BM: And so, how old were you when that [Beaver] opened? JL: I was probably 14 or 15 I think, because I raced up there. BM: Oh you did! JL: Yeah. And it wasn’t anything like it is now. I mean you have to go back up in, well that wasn’t like that. It was, seems to me, you just go off the road and go on up. BM: Um-hmm. Did it have a tow lift? JL: Well, actually yeah it did, it had a tow. But it wasn’t developed really, [back] then it had a single chair lift. I think it still does perhaps. BM: Um-hmm. JL: I don’t know; I haven’t been up to it. I’m very naughty about that. BM: It’s gotten pretty spiffy. JL: I guess it really, really has and I guess it’s just wonderful skiing! BM: Um-hmm. And the Seeholzer family still has the operation. JL: The rights? They do? My word! BM: And it’s grown. So you raced there as a child? JL: Uh-huh. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  26   �BM: Downhill ski racing. JL: Uh-huh. And giant slalom, we did that there too. And we did slalom; yeah, we did all of them. BM: Were they also jumping up there? JL: Not really. BM: No? JL: No, the jumping was mostly down here, up at Ecker Hill. [Ecker Hill is in Wasatch County] I’ve got some pictures that Peter [Lawson] has restored (and maybe some of them are up at the University, I don’t know) of the jumping days with Alf and Sverre and Corey [Engen]. Now they’re all gone. I think, to my knowledge though, Alf’s wife Evelyn is still alive. I’m not sure, but I believe she is. BM: This is Evelyn Engen? JL: Uh-huh. BM: I’m not sure. I don’t know the name. I know the name Alf. JL: Uh-huh, he was the older brother of the three. There was Alf and then there’s Sverre and Corey. And they all moved over here gradually. And then their parents moved over here. [Mrs. Engen moved to Utah, but her husband was deceased.] And she was Alf’s wife (she’s a pain in the butt! That’s not nice, but anyway she is.) She lives on an old farm. I think it’s an old farm. Maybe it’s not, maybe it’s out on the – I don’t know. It’s out there in one of those condominium developments. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And I’ve seen her on occasions at some gatherings skiing, but I haven’t seen her since the last ski archives up there. BM: At the university? JL: No. Up at the – what do they call it? That what I’m trying to think. BC: The University of Utah Ski Archives? JL: Yeah, that’s what it is. And that’s called something – I can’t think what it’s called. [The Alf Engen Ski Museum in Park City.] BM: Is it Ski Meister? Or is that a magazine? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  27   �JL: Maybe it is. BM: Hmm. But they celebrate each year, and that’s what you’ve been back to? Hmm. JL: I think Alf’s book or Corey’s book – was it Corey or Alf or Sverre? Maybe Sverre’s book. Over there, can you see it? BC: Yeah. There’s one called First Tracks? JL: Yeah, that’s the endurance. BC: Yeah. Let’s see – JL: He’s gone. BC: The Wasatch Mountains – JL: They’ve all died but me. And as my Dad said, “You’re too ornery.” [Laughing] BM: So you’ve skied with all of them? JL: Yeah. BM: That was part of your – JL: bringing up. BM: Gee. JL: Oh yeah. I skied, as I say, when you put the inner tube around your boot and binding and that was at Ecker Hill, that’s where we went. So of course it was open. Unless you skied, and we did later on and I did too. You know, you would drive up Silver King Mine and hike up and over and drop down into Brighton and stay at [?]; Mrs. Howardy would run that. The only way you could get in was to ski in. BM: Um-hmm. JL: God it was fun! BM: And the boys skied with the girls and you kept up with everybody? The boys kept up with you? JL: Oh, sure! Some girls – oh, Jenny Gurnsey, we were not best friends. Dear Aunt Em. I wonder who lives in that house now? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  28   �BM: In Logan? JL: Aunt Em’s. BM: Um-hmm. The Eccles House in -- JL: Not Bammie’s, but Aunt Em’s on the corner. Don’t know. BM: I don’t know. JL: She had an open house, somebody at Bammie’s house, and had it open and I couldn’t get there for some reason and I wanted to. So I’ll have to call one day and see if I can go and see her. I did a lot of growing up in that house. BM: In Logan? JL: You bet. BC: In the summers or all year round? JL: Mostly the summers. Well, we used to have winter there, Christmas. BC: Oh. JL: And Bammie would put one of the Christmas trees in the bay window on the second floor. BM: I bet that was beautiful. JL: Oh, it was wonderful! BM: And so you went up from Salt Lake to Logan for Christmas? JL: Yeah, and stayed. Bammie had a whole house of people. Mother was there and of course Aunt Marie was there but she lived in her own house I guess. I used to get so mad at her, but it was George’s fault, he would just spoil her rotten, you know. All she did was feed the kid, whichever one she had at the moment, and he would bring the baby to her. Honestly! What a woman. BM: So these Christmases, this was an annual thing? You went up every Christmas? JL: Yeah, yeah. Until Bammie decided she wouldn’t stay there anymore. She went down to California. And then we quit going up there and did Christmas at home. But Bammie stayed there and then eventually of course we moved Bam down, moved her into the Mayflower apartments [in Salt Lake City] where she died. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  29   �BM: Can I ask you what Logan was like at that time? JL: Well, it had the streetcar, you know? It went clankety, clankety, clank. And it had Bammie’s electric car. “Clear, here comes Mrs. Eccles, clear the way!” And Bammie – it had enough juice in it to take her from her house to Aunt Marie’s. Now that was a pretty good haul up. Back wasn’t bad, but up was – BC: Now is Aunt Marie [Marie Eccles Caine] the same – below the university they call the Caine House? JL: The old – yeah, yup. BM: So right on the corner of 500 North – JL: And – what is that? BM: 600? JL: It’s called “Something Way” or – BC: Yeah. BM: It goes right up past Old Main, they could probably see the Tower from their house. JL: Oh yeah, they lived directly down, actually. BM: So you went in an electric car from you aunt’s over there – JL: It was fun! BM: Oh my goodness, that’s interesting. JL: It was very sad and I didn’t know it, but Uncle Spence sold Bammie’s [car] (it was the second one she had too, it was in perfect condition). He sold it to the scrap yard. BM: Sold the car? JL: Yes! BM: Why did he do that? JL: Huh? BM: Why did he do that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  30   �JL: Because the War was on and they needed it I guess. And Bammie wasn’t there to drive it. I don’t think she was. Was she there? I don’t remember when she moved to Salt Lake. BM: So this would have been the 1940s then when he sold the car? JL: Yeah. BM: Hmm. JL: There’s a statue. BM: There you go, that’s the sculpture. JL: Then there’s that. BM: Oh! JL: That’s a miniature of the one that’s at Westminster. BM: Okay. JL: But it’s life-size; you can sit in a couch beside it. I was trying to think: who is that? I used to go down to California and stay and visit Em and Noni. BM: Now who is Noni? JL: She’s the younger sister and she’s always lived in California, in Berkeley. Just over almost to Piedmont. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And Em – after Uncle Lee died – she moved down there and she lived with Noni until Noni finally kicked her out. Here’s my mother. That’s Mother, and that’s Marriner and that’s Ellen. BM: Ellen? JL: Bammie’s next-to-the-youngest. BM: Oh, okay. JL: And Merrill. BM: And you remember them very well? JL: Oh yeah! Sure, I stayed with them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  31   �BM: Did they ever come over here? JL: Oh yeah. BM: And to Bear Lake? JL: Um-hmm. BM: So you had company there quite often? JL: Um-hmm. BC: And that’s Marriner. JL: Yes. BC: Do you remember him at all when he was Secretary of the Treasury? JL: Sure. I was back in Washington with him. I used to stay with him because I was in barracks and I didn’t want to be in the barracks very much. So Uncle Marriner would say, “Well come on; you come stay here if you want to. And just check in and out so I kind of know what and how.” So I stayed at the [?] [whispering]. It’s kind of posh! It was very posh because the other ones were over in Arlington. The barracks were just over the Potomac River. BC: So were you in the Navy, or? JL: Yeah. I was in the Navy and I loved it! And I loved being in the Navy. And the only reason that I got out was because I married Fred and I got pregnant purposely. Because I couldn’t get out, I just couldn’t do it. Then I got pregnant and then I could. No reason I couldn’t have stayed in. BM: Hmm. When were you – what time period was this when you were back east? JL: In the Navy before? Who’s that? Who’s that? BM: Is that a bird? JL: No, well I guess. I’m looking just over the fence and I think probably it’s the gardeners. They moved that house. BC: Oh did they? JL: Uh-huh. BM: Beautiful tree. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  32   �BC: So did you join the Navy then? JL: Yeah. BC: And that was for World War II, or? JL: When I got to be 21 I joined the Navy. I couldn’t before that, because my dad wouldn’t give his permission and I had to have my parents [permission]. So finally I got to be 21 and bang! I joined it. BM: So how did you tell them that you joined? Your parents? JL: Very terrified. [Laughing] BM: Did you do it face-to-face or did you do it by phone? JL: No, I did it face-to-face. BM: Ooh. JL: Boy Dad! Mother I didn’t care about; but Dad was going to be a case. And he was! He practically went to Marriner to tell him to get me out of this thing. And Marriner said, “I can’t do that!” Because he was still Head of the Federal Reserve back in Washington. BM: Um-hmm. JL: So there I was off to [?] college and boot camp. And then when I got out of boot camp I went to Washington D.C. with a Bureau of Ships and that was great because it was a very closed, small, what they call a “Blue Seal” office. Nothing ever went out of that office. Everything was burned, had to be. We camouflaged all the battle ships and they would send [?] to them. And we would take them and put them on a paper and scale them down to – and put them on a paper and then put ships out there to see how the ships . If they looked like ships something, blah, blah, or whether we would camouflage them so they didn’t look like the ones that they were. It was fun, I like it. As a matter of fact I liked the Navy. I really did. I had a great time. My father and mother had conniptions. But I was 21! And I just did it. I must have been a terror for them to raise and I think probably I was. Dave wasn’t here, my brother. He was in Australia. No, was he in Australia? Yeah, I guess he was; in the Army. BM: So he couldn’t even be here to back you up? JL: No, no. After I got out of the Navy I met – through the S.O.S. or S.S.? BC: S.S. I think. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  33   �JL: Yeah. And I got some kind of – not because of who I was but because of who I had been in the skiing department and in the skiing mainly and so on, they wanted this run. And now he or she is a wave and so on. We had fun. I had special [?] that brought me into the studio and oh! Yeah, had a good time. I like it but I couldn’t stay in when I got pregnant. Which I probably wouldn’t have gotten pregnant except that’s the only way and Fred had been transferred to Ohio from D.C. and so the only way I could get there was to get pregnant and get out of the Navy honorably. I did! Everything just went swell! BM: And you came back here? JL: No, I joined Fred in Dayton, Ohio where Rick was born. And that was something else again. I thought Dad would have a fit! And I said, now never mind, I did this deliberately and I’ll probably have another one deliberately. So anyway, I had the baby and stayed in the Navy – or stayed in until Fred was released – and then we checked out and came here. He’d never been here before. He’d never been west of the Mississippi I don’t think; poor old guy. BC: How did you meet Fred? JL: In the Army-Navy picnic. Creek Park is where I met him. Although that was tough because he was an officer and I wasn’t. And that made things a little tough sometimes. But we managed, much to my father’s chagrin. I think he probably – what would he have me – well I would have stayed in school I guess. I didn’t ever graduate from the university. Because I was busy in the Navy and I did love it though. I really did. And it was very good for me to do. And I was in a wonderful office in Washington, on Constitution Avenue, in the Blue Seal Room. And that meant that upon opening and closing that it was always locked. You couldn’t get in there unless you were admitted by somebody who was your --. We were only about eight or 10 people in this particular department. And we would camouflage the ships and put them on a board and look at them out here and see if we had camouflaged out a stack; to change what kind of class it was in. We burned everything, had to be burned. Nothing went out of that office. BM: Do you remember where you were when the War ended? JL: Sure. I was in Dayton, Ohio. BM: Had you had your baby then. JL: Yeah. BM: Rick was already born? JL: Yeah, Rick got himself up and born. An OB/GYN, who apparently was a very outstanding and very something else – OB/GYN doctor – Kirschbaum, I think that was his name. And boy, he took such good care of me. He thought this was the biggest joke Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  34   �on the Navy he’d ever heard. And so Dr. Kirschbaum, who was an outstanding, apparently OB/GYN out of Chicago – he’s the one that delivered me. BM: Hmm. JL: Hardly got there in time. I didn’t have much trouble. Oh, I didn’t. Mother was very busy trying on hats until Dad I thought was absolutely going to croak her. BM: She was trying on hats while you were – JL: In labor. BM: Oh! JL: Getting ready to go to the hospital. Because you know, where we lived Patterson Village was a long way from – well, I guess it was at least a half an hour or 45 minutes away from Wright Field where you had to go to have this baby. It was funny. Did you see that? Emma Eccles Jones: Educator, Teacher, Friend. (6 March 1898—29 March 1991.) [From Utah State Magazine, Vol. 14 No. 2; Summer 2008] BC: They published this for the dedication the other day. JL: Yeah. BC: Yeah. Somebody told me about it, but I hadn’t seen one yet. JL: Well, that’s it. I won’t give it to you, but you can probably go and get one. BC: I will. We’ll put it in our [Special Collections]. I work in the library, so we’ll put it in our [library at USU.] JL: Absolutely. I think Rick wrote a lot of it. BM: Well, we’re just about at the end of our tape. So is there anything else that you would like to add? JL: No. What do you want to add? BM: Well. JL: Or ask? If I can fulfill – BM: Well you know one question that we were really interested in, that you talked a little bit about in terms of so many changes going on at Bear Lake. And Bear Lake and Logan Canyon – you mentioned the road and the bridges. Are there any other significant Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  35   �changes or policies that you can think of that impacted the lake or the canyon while you were going over there? JL: Well. BM: Or even events. Like the Depression, or civil rights, or anything like that? JL: I went – where was it? You know, it’s about that road that goes up, up, up and comes to where you turn off to go – what is that road called? The part of it? BM: Is it the winding part of the road? JL: No. It’s the one that goes up from the river, over the bridge – they had to redo the bridge like completely. [Tape 2 of 2: B] Yeah. Gee that was a fun one. You know when you go at the top there on that Denny’s dugway and then turn to get out, you used to go out and around on that point. You can probably still see the road. And mother was driving this 7 passenger Buick you know it’s just a big hunk of machinery. That was the climb. And you know, you didn’t just sort of flip up there like you do now. It was fun though. Mother was quite adventuresome. I don’t know, I guess she went up to the store and tell Joan she was there. You didn’t go over Evanston because from Evanston over was dirt road. All through Woodruff, Randolph up the canyon, it was all dirt. BM: And you said you came then in most recent years, you came up through Evanston. Where you going through Woodruff and Randolph at Deseret Ranch? JL: Yes. BM: Was that a place that you were in? JL: Yeah we didn’t go into it. No, we stayed on the road that went past the horse racing and we went up there and then we just zoomed and kept going until we got to Big Junction. From there you can go to Jackson Hole or Bear Lake. BM: Is that Sage Creek Junction? JL: Yeah, it’s Sage Creek Junction. And yeah, it’s longer but well I just haven’t driven in Logan forever. I was asking somebody the other day how it was. Could I get through the canyon or couldn’t I? Cause I was thinking about going up that way. BC: I think it’s pretty good right now. I don’t think there’s much going on now. So you better do it this year because they might start all over again. [Meaning road construction.] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  36   �JL: Yeah it I otta go. Why didn’t they leave it alone?! BM: Cause there’s lots of skiers and lots of folks going up and down. And they are in a hurry. JL: Well, do you think that they are to get up skiing to the meadows there, is it a lot faster now with the road? BM: It is. It’s a lot faster. You know 10 years I’ve been here, but it is a lot faster from what people tell me. It’s still a beautiful ride. JL: I know. It is. That’s the prettiest. The other one is just interesting kind of. Getting up, over and dropping down. BM: But it gets wicked in the wintertime with the weather. JL: Well, yes it is. I guess it’s a hard road to maintain. They only open it up to the ski area. I don’t think they open it up and over the top and down do they? BM: They do keep it open now. JL: Do they?! BM: So you remember a time when the road used to just be opened to the top? JL: Yeah. BM: Hmmm. And did they gate it? JL: No… they didn’t gate it. I don’t know. You just knew it wasn’t plowed. That’s how you knew. You came to a grinding halt. BM: And the last place you could get to was what? Beaver Mountain? JL: Mm Hmmm. Yeah. BM: That’s a truck route now, Janet, with a lot of trucks that go through there pretty much year round. JL: What? Bear Lake? BM: Yeah. JL: Oh. Over the new road? BM: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  37   �JL: Oh I’m sure. There was a great increase even before they did this new deal as it started down. What was it called? Denny’s dugway. I wonder if it’s… is it significantly better? BM: They’ve taken some of the corners, they windy parts out. BC: Probably the big thing was they’ve built in a lot of passing lanes, so that you know, if you had a recreational vehicle that was going slower, they wouldn’t back it up as much. So now you can get around some of the slower vehicles. It probably saves you 15 minutes. JL: Honestly, who don’t go that way, go the way that’s not pretty just go to Montpelier [Idaho]; that’s where people want to go I guess. Course Montpelier is a train … BC: Train town. JL: And there’s nothing in St. Charles. And there’s nothing in Paris really. And I don’t know what they could build there. Or what they would have there. BM: I think mostly the change now is just homes that are going in. Summer homes and some are winter ski homes. But mostly just homes because some the ranches that were there are much smaller or gone. But more, more homes. JL: Between Montpelier and Lake Town? BM: Between Paris, St. Charles, and then down I don’t know what the next town would be, but along that side. Little by little… JL: They are encroaching on my property and I don’t like it. BM: Well, Janet, thank you so much for chatting with us this afternoon. JL: Oh sure! I hope I’ve done something good. Well, if it isn’t right, or you need more whatever, I will be aboard. BM: Alright. Well, thank you very much for having us today. We appreciate it. JL: I hoping I could get you something? BM: You know I might take a glass of water now. Thank you. JL: Um hum. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  38   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janet Quinney Lawson interview, 28 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at her family's summer home at Bear Lake. She also talks of her childhood memories at family members' homes in Cache Valley, Utah. She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah, and in Cache Valley, and Bear Lake. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Interviews Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Family Quinney, S. Joe (Seymour Joseph), b. 1893 Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Boats and boating--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Vacation homes--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Anecdotes Skis and skiing--Utah Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp Utah State University. Janet Quinney Lawson Building Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Friends and associates--Anecdotes Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)--Description and travel Bear Lake Monster Monsters--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Folklore Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Beaver Mountain (Utah) Logan (Utah) United States. Navy--Women Automobile driving--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Garden City (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Parley's Canyon (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Salt Lake City (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 2 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd2JanetQuinneyLawson Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 28 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-28 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections