19 50 1396 https://highway89.org/files/original/95f4eeaf46828ec07866ca2476836085.jpg 79b5356003aeeb3bd3d8df536d903c5d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/261">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/261</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan River just above First Dam at the mouth of Logan Canyon, Utah, near the Utah Power and Light Company Plant, 1920s Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Views. 1920s. Site just above First Dam near Utah Power and Light Company Plant. Black and white photograph (6 x 8 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Logan River (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan River (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3144 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3144 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d2a55cf2429ed5382701273930a48902.jpg 7af131fe1df93bc0e60accd3573237e4 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/262">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/262</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Members of Logan Scout Troop 5 sitting on a large log on a wagon up Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 Description An account of the resource Members of Logan Scout Troop 5 sitting on a large log on a wagon up Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white (2.5 x 4 in.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Log transportation--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 40:02 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03644002 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c668b3cb4d93b77836e6731ccac2ffc1.jpg 76fc5216a5d653c2b710e882bab41420 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/263">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/263</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White Pine Lake, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1910 and 1920 (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource White Pine Lake. Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Crookston, Newell J., 1890-1976 Subject The topic of the resource White Pine Lake (Cache County, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. White Pine Lake (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 1:034 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv9026">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv90267</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P013010734 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1910-1920 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/96f53b7037516b3a25561c1344648388.jpg 90dec13f86a02bedf2978a79e80642c5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/264">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/264</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Men pulling in a fishing net, Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho Description An account of the resource Men pulling in fishing net at Bear Lake. Black and white photograph (4 x 5 in) Subject The topic of the resource Fishing--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Utah juniper photograph collection, 1947-1970, P0366 1:15:02 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Utah juniper photograph collection, 1947-1970 can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv82354">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv82354</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Utah juniper photograph collection, 1947-1970, P0366 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P036611502 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1947-1970 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/4487ff3096af2659b596ba6b042d3ed8.jpg 857b58901f2aa8d4ab127b122886e931 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/265">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/265</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Canyon road with rock formation on the side of the road (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Canyon road with rock formation on the side of the road. Black and white photograph (8 x 10 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Dirt roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 1910-1919 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:01:15 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P032450115 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1890 and 1940 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c7dbf87062e63e2e01f16cd3dd8ffab7.mp3 6e43a491cb771a222a83e2341e4abb12 https://highway89.org/files/original/e0de45f69d9ebb87cef3b6c67f7ce874.pdf fb3f1710dbcdca4777fb1ff8a2e5e200 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Ron Goede Place of Interview: Ron Goede’s home in Logan, Utah Date of Interview: 16 October 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Elaine Thatcher and Brad Cole Elaine Thatcher Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Transcribed by: Glenda Nesbit Transcript Proofed by: Elaine Thatcher, Randy Williams (3/09; July 2011); Ron Goede reviewed (27 July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Ron discusses his family life, education in Nebraska in a German and Russian German communities, undergraduate work University of Nebraska, involvement with the Air National Guard as an aircraft mechanic, graduate studies at Utah State University in fisheries, and his career in fisheries in Utah. Reference: ET = Elaine Thatcher (Interviewer; Director, USU Mountain West Center for Regional Studies) BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) RG = Ron Goede NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION DISC One ET: This is Elaine Thatcher and Brad Cole. We are with Ron Goede at his home in Logan. And it is October 16, 2008. And it’s about 2:15 in the afternoon. And so we’re going to talk with Ron about his career in fisheries and whatever else comes up in the conversation. So Ron, why don’t you start by stating your full name your birthday and birth place? RG: Okay. Well my full name is Ronald William Goede. G O E D E. I’ve gotten used to that all the time now. So I remember. I was born in Columbus, Nebraska on April 4, 1934. Let’s see what all do we need now. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 1   �ET: No that’s all I asked you for. RG: Do you want me to just proceed with that. ET: Well if you just want to give us a quick rundown on... did you grow up there? RG: Well I was there until I was twelve. It was; I don’t know it was a German thing. And I was raised in a German neighborhood. So my father was a German Lutheran Minister. And spoke German. And we moved to Lincoln. And then I grew up in a German Russian immigrant culture. He took over a church there. And that’s kind of where I grew up. So a lot of my, a lot of my cultural background, even though it’s not my blood background. I was Prussian, you know. But my background actually was more German than Russian. ET: So did you grow up speaking some German? RG: Oh yea. Yea ET: You still speak it? RG: Yea. Not like I did before. I’m getting self-conscious about it. BC: What was your dad’s name? RG: Herman Martin Adolf Gerda BC: And your mother? RG: She was Irene Lavern Hahappold. HAHAPPOLD. And she was from a farming community. I had an intellectual side with my father’s side and she was from a big German farming community. Ronald Grandion, Nebraska. So on those two were big in my background. I learned to have a lot of consideration and respect for both the intellectual and the working side. Thought a lot of both of them; and that’s kind of stayed with me, always has. ET: What was your education like? RG: Um. Well of course I went to public school in Columbus up to the sixth grade and then went to high school in Lincoln: Lincoln High School. And then I graduated. And then [in] 1952 from there and then I started to attend [the] University of Nebraska in Lincoln. Started in engineering but didn’t like it. Stayed with it for a couple of years and then got out of it and went into arts and science. And that was a real turn on for me. So after the engineering I majored in botany. And then also I had a major in Botany and also one in Zoology. And I got a degree out of Lincoln: a bachelor’s degree. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 2   �ET: So you had a double major? RG: Yea a double major. ET: Botany and Zoology. RG: At that time they asked you to have one major and two minors or two majors. And so I was really into the biology period. So anyway I also got involved at this time in the military was hanging over your heads pretty hard. So I ended up, while I was going to University of Nebraska, I joined the National Guard. And I was in the Air National Guard and I was trained as an aircraft mechanic. So I worked up, went through one enlistment there. And then I ended up with about a year of active duty there too in the Air Force. At that time you had to have eight years in some combination military. The more active duty you had the less reserve time you had to do. So I was in there until I was going to be until for that eight years. And then I let’s see. I came to school up here at Utah State. I didn’t know what I wanted to do with biology so I applied for graduate work at: Duke and British Columbia for forestry; and Missouri and Utah State for fisheries; and Wisconsin and Purdue for pathology. And I figured well I’ll let them wade it out you know. And I got accepted at all of them. And so then that didn’t help. So I decided, actually one of the reasons I came to Utah was simply because I’d never been to Utah before. I could have easily gone any one of those directions because I was interested in all of it. But with a degree in Botany and Zoology, a bachelor’s, the only job offer I got was with the – was a fruit inspector in a post office in Kansas City. And I decided well I’d better rethink this. That wasn’t one of them things I had on my plan. ET: So you were still doing your time in the National Guard when you got accepted here? RG: Yea, that’s right. I would have just been finishing it here: the National Guard. And then when I came here there wasn’t an Air National Guard unit at that time close by here so I went into the standby’s reserve. I was still doing my eight year. And then let’s see, I finished the degree well somewhere in there. Let’s see in 1958 I went to work for River Basin Studies for the Fish and Wildlife Services River Basin studies in Alaska; and [I] did biological surveys on the Sisitna and the Yukon. ET: Was this after you got your masters? RG: No, this was between, about half way. I didn’t have any money. And I hitchhiked. I did about a year here and I was advised I had to get some money somewhere. And I hitchhiked to Seattle. And then from Seattle the Fish and Wildlife Service paid [for me to travel to Anchorage]. And then I had to live in a warehouse; I was just gonna go right to the boondocks, rather than get an apartment. I just lived in a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 3   �warehouse: a Fish and Wildlife Service warehouse and slept on a sack of seines [fish nets]. And I had that little stove in there and they’d bring. The guys that worked the commercial fish stuff would bring me little catches every day. I had shrimp and things like that. But it wasn’t too . . . couldn’t have many guests. And then went out to start doing their surveys. And they hired me primarily for my botany because they wanted me to do complete biological surveys in impoundments. They were talking about putting three major impoundments on the Mississippi River. And they wanted to know everything that was alive basically in that proposed impoundments area up to everything that was going to be impounded. So I worked the length of the Susitna. And I finished the project. ET: And you were identifying plants at some point. RG: Everything. Fish and anything I could get. But plants are the one they were worried about; because it tied in so much to the game forage and everything else. And the streams were pretty heavily fed by the glaciers; by the Susitna Glacier. So it looked a lot like a sidewalk, you know, gray, the Susitna. And the salmon couldn’t make it up, the water was too rough. They had an area called Devil’s Gorge; the salmon couldn’t even get by there. In fact we lost a person. We lost a person in Devil’s Gorge. But I finished that project. And then I decided I had to make some decisions. Of course I couldn’t spend anything because I gave the banks of power of attorney because I wasn’t in town. There was no place to spend it. And so they just kept depositing it. That got me to where I could afford to go back to school. So I came back to Utah State. And I had a master’s project. I wrote a project up for and it went to Bill Sigler [he] was my major professor. He was in charge of the Fisheries program, the wildlife department then. And I wrote one [mater project] up on the effects of sodium fluoride. Fluoride was a big issue then: fluoridization. And so I had a project on the effects of sodium fluoride on primary productivity of a stream. I worked it out on the Logan River. So when I finished that. That took a couple of years. That was a slow process. In those days you didn’t get a lot of money for [graduate work?]. A matter of fact I built my experimental unit out of an old airplane canopy; one that Sigler had from surplus. It was a plastic airplane canopy and I had to cut it and I molded it in my oven in my apartment; burnt the hell out of myself. And it worked and then they decided to go ahead and build some for me – have them built. ET: So these were what? RG: They were microcosms. They were tubes where I could put samples of algae and so forth in there and then run the water past and collect the gasses and so forth. And then I would measure the chlorophyll in the plants to give an idea of what the productivity was. And that would go up or down, depending where the fluoride level was. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 4   �ET: Did the fluoride have a negative effect on the growth? RG: Not too much. It actually got a little. They got a kind of a carbon dioxide gush when you treat them with the fluoride. So it had an impact but we never, with that particular study we didn’t work out whether that was bad or not. But it was, it was. We didn’t have calculators then either. Except the big Marchant and Fridens [calculators] you know. We had to wait in line to use the calculators. You could have never set that on a table because it went ka kink, ka kink, ka kink. Finally it would slosh over. So anyway that was when I got a job. I started to work on a Ph.D. but it was just. I simply needed to find a way to make some money again. And I was kind of burned out with the whole process anyway. So I got a job with Missouri; the State of Missouri, and started to work for them. And I worked for about I think I went to work for them like in June of ’61. And then in October of ’61 yea October of ’61 they had the Berlin crisis and I got activated because I was still in the reserve. I only had about three months left on my eight years and I got activated. So of course then I’d joined a unit in Ohio and then they decided they didn’t have a crisis. But you couldn’t get out, you know. They didn’t have a crisis but they couldn’t let you go either. So I spent a year there just volunteering for temporary duty anywhere I could, just to keep it interesting. So I flew all over. And I was still a mechanic. And I was flying all over the country. So then when I got [out] Missouri had to [give me a job again]. [They] gave me a leave you know; they had to when I got activated. Except the same job wasn’t there [when I got out, so] I had to take a different job. And when I got to back to Missouri, I was working for their research group under Slim Funk: John L. Funk, out of Columbia, Missouri and then I took over. Just before I went to the service I had taken over the paddlefish study. This was the reason I was interested in Missouri in the first place. Of course I didn’t get that back. But I was also doing small bass mouth reproduction studies. And I kind of lost, lost those projects. And I ended up in lakes and impalement studies and I finally took over their public use – management in their public use areas like St. Louis and Kansas City and places. And then they started, they sent me to Stutguard, Arkansas to a workshop that Fred Meyer had. Fred Meyer was a parasitologist with the Fish and Wildlife Service. And run it at the fish farming experiment station in Stutguard. And that was a two-week class. And that really turned me on. That was a really it was . . . it wasn’t strict fisheries, it was more fish health. And Fred told me that in about ten years ago fishery biologists would be a dime-a-dozen. But fisheries biologists with a special deal and I said, Wow that’s heavy. So I went back to Missouri and I wasn’t back there long. And I gave several papers, reports on the class. And I enjoyed doing that. That was fun. And I still like to do things like that. Like to talk, I like to talk to a crowd. Just like the Bridgerland Folk Society. But anyway while I was doing that, they asked me that their Chief of Fisheries, P.G. Barnacle in Columbia and he was, would have been. I mean yea, Chief of Fisheries. And he worked out of Jeff City, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 5   �Jefferson City. But he asked me if I was interested in, well he wanted me to take a tour of their, the state fish hatcheries which were directed by AG George Morris who ended up being. I would class George as another one of my mentors. But he was a native Hillbilly: a very good fish rater. ET: Fish what? RG: Fish culturalist. And Missouri, well a lot, well a lot of the culturists in those days were locals. You know the people that have a knack for it are real savvy of doing it. They didn’t know why they were doing some of those things. But when I was taking the tour he had another man Harvey Willoughby was along. And he was chief of hatcheries for the Fish and Wildlife Service out in Minneapolis. And I had a good time with them. I could really relate to Harvey. And so Harvey and George both became really good friends. And they were until they died. I was always in touch with those two. But George and Harvey were both inducted into the Fish Culture Hall of Fame, they call it in Spearfish, South Dakota. A Fish and Wildlife - there’s a national program. ET: I never knew it was there. RG: Yea. And they have. So those two both made it into the [Hall of Fame]. And so they would good ones to draw to you know. Then they asked me if I would. What? ET: The Fish Culture Hall of Fame? And it’s with what the state fisheries up there? RG: No. It was actually started by someone. Actually a friend of mine, Arden Trandell, who was Fish and Wildlife Service. ET: Arden Trandell? RG: Trandell. Yes. And then he retired. But he’s, in fact I think Arden’s in there too. And then he ran it; took care of it for them for awhile, after he retired. And they’ve got the biosketches and CV of everybody’s that’s gotten. I’ve got all those. They ran it kind of through the American Fisheries Society. Then after I took that tour Harvey got his degree. Harvey Willoughby. I’m just, I’m pointing. This is a nondescript point. Amorphous. I guess. But anyway Harvey got his degree at Montana State with C.J. DeBrown. And he had two thumbs. From this joint down there were two little thumbnails. ET: Oh my word. RG: Just on the one hand. And I learned fairly early on that he would distract you that way. When you were arguing with him, he’d fool with that thumb. And I’d tell him, “Damn it Harvey, put that in your pocket.” And he’s says, “Well it works sometimes.” And I’d say, “Well I bet you can pick both nostrils at the same time.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 6   �ET: But he was just a wonderful guy. He finally retired in oh Grand Junction. And he’s dead now. And his name is Willoughby? RG: Willoughby. W I L L O U G H B Y. Just a great guy; he ended up being Chief of Hatcheries for the Forest and Wildlife Service out of Washington. And really did a lot of work with new species of fish in Europe oh like the Samo Hucho hucho. The big Danube trout that they tried [and the] Lake Horid trout that they brought over here and tried in this country. Neither one of them worked all that well. But he was just a real ET: The Danube trout and the what? RG: Lake Horid. I think its H O R I D trout. It was from Central Europe. From the Alps. But Harvey was a shaker and a mover you know. He was a good advocate of culture and disciplined culture. And I thought a lot of Harvey. And George was. Old George Morris was a great, had a great influence on me. And I had my, when I was trained. When I got out of the Air Force this last time; after then they gave me a discharge you know. Then I was finished with it. But I had nine years by this time. But while I was an aircraft mechanic I got an enormous respect for preventive maintenance. And I was a crew chief taking care of the aircraft, you know. And I was working with fighter aircraft. I had the F-80’s and 86’s and 84’s. And, but that stayed with me. I still feel that way. And I carried that became part of my professional credo. You know that take care of it before it breaks. And don’t let it break with it’s up there. The pilots take issue with that. They don’t like that. When they were going down they looked to see who signed the paperwork. So this all, this all comes down to where I kind of. Where I went and why I went there, and what I did when I got there. You know. I started in Missouri I got really interested in the fish health was a big part of it. And the fish diseases. And while I was working for Missouri they sent me to Lee Town, West Virginia for about eight months to study and Dennis Snieszko, who was kind of one of the world leaders in fish pathology in the world. ET: What was his name again? RG: Snieszko. S N I E S Z K O: Dennis Stanislas Snieszko. He came here, he was educated in Poland and came here to get away from Hitler. And because they wanted him on their bacteria warfare; and he wouldn’t do it. So he came here and went to work for Kent Dietrich which was bacteria warfare in this country. But that was okay as long as it wasn’t Adolf. And he didn’t like it. He was a gentle man. And I had, I had it [?] So I got those three. I had four mentors in my life. My father was one and then Snieszko, Bill Sigler and George Morris. People that had that kind of impact on me. A lot of people were teachers, but I always add a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 7   �little extra for the mentors. They really get down inside. And I guess Dennis Snieszko is dead now. But boy I had a huge respect for him. Um, let’s see. ET: How long were you there? RG: About eight months; it was training, a formal training. They would only take four people a year. So then I was one of the four and it was very intense. Eight hours a day. You had four hours in a lecture and then four hours in the lab. All just, every day of the week. And you know, you were, you had exams and all that business. So it was formal. And Snieszko made a comment. He had been criticized by some of his peers for taking time out for to train from a research program. And his response to that was, there’s no point in building the bricks if there’s no one to build the houses. I still get choked up with this because he really meant a lot. And that stuck with me. And I never got that out of my system. So I did all my career a lot of training. But always I did it at the University here. But I did a lot of workshops. And when I developed that autopsy system I taught that to around 1500 people in 32 different states. And so that was a heavy, heavy part of my program was to pass on what we were finding to people, other professionals. So and I just. There were just us two. About two years ago. Two or three years ago I got the Snieszko Award finally. For distinguished service from the American Fisheries. And it’s interesting. You know one of the other scientists there, which I got to be really good friends with and was also, is a world famous pathologist. He’s dead now too. But it was Ken Wolfe. And Ken got the first Ph.D. here at Utah State. ET: Really RG: Not in fisheries. But the first. That was right after they went to the, at University from Ag College to University. He was the first Ph.D., Bill McConnell got the second one and John Neuhold got the third one. So, but Ken was a. He started the work with cell culture and stuff with, in fisheries. And so they could do. He was the first, developed the first cold-blooded cell line. So they could do the work with viruses. And I used his methods when I came here I found virus in Kamas; at the Kamas hatchery: the IPN virus. And started his cell culture here in my lab. But I was close friends with Ken until he died too. And Glen Hoffman was kind of the big. Did a lot of the early work on whirling disease. He was there too. These guys were all world class fish pathologists, men very well known. Hooked into. n Italy everybody came there to see those guys, you know. So you got to meet all these people and talk to them. And a lot of them spoke German. ET: So you got along fine. RG: Yea. It was funny how many of them did speak German; they weren’t all Germans. But German for awhile was kind of the technical language, scientific language. So anyway, so that’s where. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 8   �Then I came back to Missouri and I built their first disease lab, fish disease lab that they’d had. Down in southeast Missouri, down near Cassville Missouri. Not too far, about sixty miles out of Springfield. At a stake park down there. And had, and started working with fish quality. I liked that. I took it a step beyond the health and or disease and decided I was interested in the quality in a more general attack. And disease was just a part of that. And that’s kind of, that kind of became my thrust, all through the rest of my career. Was the fish quality and of course a lot of work with disease. But always in the context of quality. ET: So about what year are we up to now? When you came back to that RG: When I came back… I came to Utah after. I came back to in ‘62 after the air activation. And then went to Missouri for about eight months. And then came … I had worked before. I had to work. I went to work for the hatcheries there after Harvey. Had that meeting with Harvey, tour with Harvey Willoughby and George Morris. Apparently I didn’t know that but I was being assessed or evaluated. To see, because they were worried about putting a technical person with these old guys. You know. They weren’t happy about me being there. Those old guys. They had. Then you had a college graduate they stuck a couple of adjectives in there too. But Harvey maintained that since George was kind of a hillbilly himself. But Harvey said he didn’t know many people who would, who would get along with those guys. But he thought I would. And so the very first job I had there was working. And so I went to work as a hatchery biologist. And very first job I had there was a disease case. I never forgot. I still use this in lectures and stuff. But the, he didn’t want me there. That was pretty obvious. And he was very nervous about me being there. ET: Harvey didn’t? RG: No this old guy that was the hatchery superintendent for the Roaring River Hatchery. Bob Price. And we ended up being really good friends too. But he asked me. I said, “Well in the first place in Missouri you don’t just sit down and get right at the subject. You’ve got to get over to it, you know. Talk about the weather and everything else, you know.” And I finally said, “Well I understand you’ve had some trouble here.” Oh, he says, “they’re dead. But I don’t think it’s anything serious.” And he was serious. He was serious as hell. But I knew just exactly what he meant. But I was really struggling to keep from laughing you know. And that’s always stuck with me. That there’s being serious and then there’s being serious. You know. He was worried about it wasn’t going to be serious for him. He knew the fish were in trouble. He didn’t know whether he was. ET: They’re dead, but it’s nothing serious. RT: Yea. But I don’t think it’s anything serious. And so I started picking up a lot of their jargon. Well we cut it off twice, but it’s still too short. And then I’ve. I had a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 9   �pretty active program there. And I started the kind of an inspection of the stations. Boy I spent an awful lot of time on the road, sitting there drawing stuff on napkins in the coffee shops, trying to figure out how we’re going to approach this. I always used to. I always used the approach of what are we going to do? I never did say, “What can I do for you?” And I think that made a big difference for them, because I made sure that. Because they knew a lot of stuff about fish that I just. I knew how to. What we were going to have to call some of it. But they didn’t know. They knew what to do. They had a system for, when they had a leaking dam board and a raceway. You just can’t seem to stop it from leaking. They used horse manure. They called it super seal. But it’s the. And it didn’t work as well from cows because their ruminants and they break the fiber down too far. But horses they put, it’s dry. It has to be dry of course. They’ll put that in there and it sucks that in to those boards. And then it swells and it’s obsolete. ET: Oh for heaven’s sake. RG: And so. The first time I ever went looking for. Up at Kamas they were having leaky boards. And we went out and got some. I had a tech, one of the techs that was working for me. We walked: a gal. We walked out and got. I said I got a bucket and we went out and got some horse manure. And we came back and the assistant Superintendent Ron Russell. He said, what have you got? And he looked in there and he say’s I’m not sending you out for strawberries again. But they got a kick out of that. And so they started calling it super seal too. Now you can’t find horses. So there was a lot of those kinds of things. I had to take that and understand why it was working and try to bring it down into some kind of a quantifiable thing. And I loved it. I really fell in love with the work then. Because I felt that they needed me and I needed them. And then that’s always stuck with me. And it was with me when I came here. Bill Sigler recruited me down here. He called me and said that this job was open out here and that this lab was built in 61. They started building it in 61. George Post. And so he said, he wanted me. He was assigned, or asked by the State of Utah to find somebody. And so Sigler thought that I would be a good one for that. And so I came. And I thought then. I hated to leave Missouri but this was a whole new, whole new thing here. ET: What year was that? RG: That was ’66 when I came here. I was. Sigler called me in 65, the spring of 65 and I told him I wouldn’t do it unless I had at least three months to get somebody in place and trained to do the job there. So then they gave me that much time. And then I came here. But I always, quality, fish quality was central to my program. So that in 1967 I found the virus in Kamas in the Kamas hatchery. BC: And where’s Kamas at? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 10   �RG: It’s up by the Jordan[elle], by the Heber and Kamas and Midway. Kamas is on the Provo [River]. ET: It’s up on the Wasatch back. RG: Upper Provo River yea. ET: You found whirling disease up there. RG: No IPN virus. It was one of. It was actually. He was losing everything. In little brook trout. And I looked at those fish and I says, that’s. And I wasn’t even set up for it yet. And I said “that’s got IPN written all over it: Infectious Pancreatic Necrosis.” And so I had a friend in Hagerman, Idaho who was at the Federal Hatchery there. He was a hatchery biologist who had been through and had already set up some cell culture. And so I took samples up to him and we ran it through the lab there. And it came out positive. And then I, then I started. It took me awhile to set that all up here and the get the equipment I needed. And then I started the inspections. I started inspecting all of the stations. ET: So where was the lab here that you set up? Was it on campus? RG: Yea. No it was out at the experiment station across from the landfill there. BC: On second north? RG: Yea. And that’s. You know I had a little office. Merlin Olsen came out to see me and he didn’t even fit in my office. I told him Merlin we got to go outside. ET: That’s still a fisheries office isn’t it? RG: Yea. And it’s, it’s re-expanded a lot. It’s a full. That was about 1967. Well it was ‘68. I had basically a full service pathology lab going there. I had the cell cultures and we had the bacteriology and everything. And it stayed that way. Then in [?] cause now we’re starting to get down to here you know. This was the formative stuff that got me into all this. They were having a lot of trouble. You have to back up here now a little bit and realize where fisheries were at that time. You know. Like in the ‘50s still, fisheries was pretty trial and error. Especially in Utah and places like Utah because they were damming all the. Putting it would be the large central Utah project dams or small irrigation dams. But it was getting where they didn’t have fish for that. This was, there were no lakes in Utah other than the Uintas which didn’t have fish. And so you couldn’t just dam that up and hope that the fish that are there are going to take over. Because it was a different habitat. And so, and they were doing a lot of trial and error. There wasn’t a lot of sense. Just put barracuda in you know. Oh let’s try those. They’re pretty. And then you know. Piranha you don’t have to feed them very often, you know. Oh look, you’d put a hand. Put a sign there that says keep fingers out of water and you’d Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 11   �have it made you know because that’s an invitation to. Wouldn’t have to feed them. And this was a research program. The experiment station was primarily to develop fish culture techniques and methods and equipment to get better fish and more fish. Primarily more fish. And so I took issue with that whole, that whole idea. And I told them, I can’t buy. I don’t want to go for more fish. I’ll go for better fish. And that’s more of a sensible goal than as many fish as I can raise. I’d rather get the best fish I can raise. And then also decide what you’re going to plant; what species, when you know. When do you plant them, how many do you plant. And feed. They were still feeding a little meat when I got here. You know. In Missouri I had that too. I developed diets. But that was. You would feed livers. Get a lot of livers. And they’d dye them green so that you wouldn’t sell them for. And that was the law. And nothing like ET: And you fed that to the fish huh? RG: Nothing like grinding up a bunch of green liver you know. God, that’s awful stuff. And then the. Those old superintendents told us. Always figured you couldn’t raise a trout without liver. And so a lot of times they just almost beg you for more, some liver. Because they said, I know this is going to do it. And so I’d go ahead and I’d recommend a little liver for them, just because it made them feel good. It never did do any good. But anyway the upshot was, part of this is the fact that there were no diets for trout like the pellets. Like we feed now. And we were feeding some pellets, but the diets weren’t well worked out. And they would break in 40-50 days you know. They would have trouble. They would have to feed a little meat. And everybody, there were several serious programs in the country working on diets. So a good part of my first year or so was testing, developing and testing diets. I had mixers and pelleters and everything here. And then I’d have to. In order for anybody to bid on our feed contract, it might be a million pounds of feed. They would have to, we would have to test the feed. But all of this was part of that quality. A lot of the diseases; the bacterial and virus. The microbes that we had were there because of the feed wasn’t good enough. They made them very susceptible to everything that was trouble. And so we had to work. Then we so that’s program. We even had one that we worked out with Paul Cuplin who was Chief of Hatchers for Idaho. Paul and I worked up a program on jogging, fish jogging. We’d have them pull. Take the, in the hatchery, lower the water so that the fish would have to swim harder. And let them swim for about an hour and then fill it back up. Get ‘em ready. ET: Fish exercise program huh RG: We called it jogging. And we also had programs for stamina. And stamina was a big thing. And this gets in the whole idea of fish quality which was. But the fish stamina, we had a stamina tunnel out here where you would. It would be about eight foot long and a big. I think it was an 8 inch plastic Plexiglas tube and reservoirs. And you’d put fish in there and then you would. You could pump water through it at a given velocity. You measured fish swimming speed in body Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 12   �lengths per second. And you would swim them at a given body lengths per second for a given time and find out what the. Then you could measure. A lot of times they would simply start to drop out of the picture, because they couldn’t hold. They could hold for awhile and then they’d get tired. And you couldn’t tell whether they were sweating or not. Hard to do with a fish you know. But anyway so then you measure how long it took them to fatigue and then, and then how long they could. You would have to let them rest and put them in it again. But in the streams they don’t always have a choice. So but that all became part of what you had to evaluate in order to evaluate what the quality of the fish was. ET: And was this work applied throughout Utah. Or mostly up here in the North RG: No it was. But that was the thing. My program was basically state-wide. And it was the only program. So they were beginning to pretty much do what I wanted them to do. BC: Was it a program just for the state hatcheries, or does it cover the commercial hatcheries? RG: No, the commercial. We started doing it for the commercial hatcheries later. They were hard to work with. I had a long history with White’s Trout Farm out there. [Speaking to Brad Cole] Your neighbor [at White’s Trout Farm]. Clark White had , Grant’s dad or uncle was the first one. But they’ve had meat and stuff for a long time. So there’s nothing grosser than that, a big old plop and it’d float out then [?] and then the fish just coming roaring in there to eat. ET: Really. I had no idea. So now at this point did you ever get your Ph.D.? RG: Nope. I never [did]. No. In there when I was. That’s why I came back. That was one of the reasons I came back here. But while in that time I got par planitis in my eye. They didn’t know what it was for quite a while. ET: What was it called? RG: Par planitis is a part of the eye. And it was a sterile inflammation; wasn’t a microbe. And they worked on that for quite a while. Keith Gates was my eye doctor; it took him quite a while to diagnose it. And he finally said. Discovered that in England where they have socialized medicine they keep a lot of these records in one database you know. And he said. “A hundred percent of the par planitis sufferers were smokers.” And I smoked then. And that was good enough for me you know. That didn’t mean that everybody that smoked couldn’t get par planitis. But everyone that had par planitis was a smoker. And I told him, well that could just be because of you know, that always changes things with the smokers. They get vassal construction and that sort of thing. So I quit that. But it did a lot of, a fair amount of damage and I was on steroids for about two years: Prednizone. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 13   �And I backed off. I asked him what I was facing. And I said I don’t quite understand now what route to take in my career. It looked like I probably was going to loose the sight in that eye. And he advised me to just, it might be well to look for more administration. And that wasn’t what I wanted to do. But I dropped; I basically just gave up on the. I just decided I had some things I wanted to finish while I still had enough eye to do it. And I dropped the Ph.D. program. And still did a lot of work on it. And the funny part is I had, I already had the class work and I had taken the comps. I just, I just had still a fair amount of work to do on the research. And then it probably wasn’t smart to drop the thing when I was already, had two legs on you know. But I’ve never regretted. It never did, never made too much difference to me. I just kept. I’ve always kept. I still even now, and it’s been. I’ve been retired for eight years now. And I still read like I did when I hadn’t retired yet you know. I keep up with the professional stuff because that’s where my interests always were. I don’t ever read. Lisa [wife] can’t understand that because I’d be laying there reading. She thinks I’m reading a novel and I’m reading up on the history of western thought. She says, “You mean like west. Like Box Elder?” BC: Is there any? RG: There’s no thought over there. They haven’t got that far yet. But I’ve always been. I’ve loved information. I’ve just never been much of a novel reader. But I’ll read Garret Harden’s Tragedy Commons or something like that. And I love that stuff so. DISC Two RG: But the quality control is so important; and that all is brought into play. But what I was trying to point out was we had to develop all these other things before we did. First you had to know how to even measure the quality. We worked that out with the. We set up quite a physiology lab up there. But that was where my big interest was: measuring stress and quantifying stress you know. And measuring the same things you do in people; the same steroids and so forth. And define what the stress is and therefore help you define which were the stressors. A stress is a response and a stressor is what causes the response. So stress is good. The actual response that’s one of your ways your body has of keeping up. It’s when it has to do it too long why then it goes to distress and maladaption rather than adapting. And so then I worked up a system for quantifying that and quantifying health. I hated when we started to do the inspections for the diseases and the certification. We killed a lot of fish then just to take just to do the surveys. And I hated just coming up just whether they had these diseases or not. I wanted, if we’re gonna kill them let’s get some information out of them. And so that’s what. And so I developed what they call the HCP: the Health Condition Profile. And that’s the one I taught. That really caught on finally. I published that in the American Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 14   �Fisheries Society. And that come on. That’s the one I got, people were asking me to teach that all over the country and in Canada and in Mexico. ET: RG: So some of the work you did helped changed policies at the state and national level Yea, very much so. And I was always a member of the fisheries staff down in Salt Lake. Went to all the staff meetings and I always had a heavy impact on what they did and the directions they took. And so I knew also what the frustrations were with the legislature and a lot of times I would have to do battle with them. They didn’t. That never bothered me too much. There were a lot of times when I couldn’t come down and couldn’t make it to the staff meeting in Salt Lake. And they’d do something they knew I wasn’t going to agree with. And then they’d have to draw straws to see who had to tell me it. The secretary followed me out into the parking lot one time up there and she said, “Wait I got most of your comments, but how do you spell sucks.” You know. So the thing is that the Colorado River Wildlife Counsel asked in 1967. They asked for me to come up with some idea on. I accused them of dangling fish and that was the term. I got Harvey Willoughby going on that. I said, “You’re into fish dangling that’s what you’re doing.” And he says, “What do you mean?” And I said, “You call and say, we got IPN do you want them. Do you still want the fish? We’ve got IPN virus.” And I knew a lot of people who were really in sorry need of the fish. They’d go ahead and take them anyway. Even though they were, they carried this virus. And I said, “No.” I said, “I’m just telling you, you’re dangling the fish.” I said, “Look you can have these.” And so they actually asked me to come up with some kind of a way to how do we approach fish dangling. There were seven states in the Colorado Wildlife Council: the seven states on the Colorado. I was so involved this is hard for me to put this all in one dimension like that. But I started. It took me three years actually. I came up with the first meeting I had with them after we talked about the need to do something about this. Then I told them what I thought was going on and I wanted to, I said, “We need to start looking for this stuff. And I found out that the ones that were fighting it. I finally realized that they were afraid they already had these things, and what happens then. And I told them, “Just don’t bury the horse until you know he’s dead,” you know. “Let’s see where we are with this thing. We’ll do a survey.” We had a list of diseases; I put that together. And so they said, they appointed the Colorado River Wildlife Council fish disease committee. And we worked. And that was composed by design, one fish, federal pathologist, one state pathologist, one state fisheries manager and one state fisheries administrator. So that we got all those elements to argue it out before hand in committee and then go talk to the larger technical committee and then the council itself. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 15   �And boy I had a real round. The first meeting then, it was in Paige, Arizona. And I really got into it with them over there in that. They used parliamentary trickery to get the floor away from me you know. And they asked if they could ask a question so they gave the floor up. I gave the floor up so they could ask this questions. And then they wouldn’t give the floor back to me. And I blew my cork, you know. And I told them, “My God, you’re gonna listen.” And they says, “Well.” They said, “We got to study this thing.” And I said, “It’s only . . . this isn’t the communist manifesto. It’s a three-page policy.” And I said, “I assumed, I guess I was misinformed. I assumed everybody could read. Everybody that comes to this meeting can read. And I really got nasty with them. And they finally agreed to read it and we come in the next day and they passed it. Now as far as that committee was concerned, and then that goes on back to each of the seven states and they decide whether they’re going to. They all have to ratify what the policy that we had developed. BC: And what was the policy exactly? RG: The policy was that basically you couldn’t, wouldn’t be able to introduce fish into the Colorado River drainage unless they’d been inspected and certified by somebody. Which they really sadly needed. They all had their own kinds of statutes. So this was the policy, they would use their statutes however they had them set up in order to comply with that policy. ET: So did this have to be accepted by legislators, or just through . . . RG: No they could do it. Well some of them did it through the legislature but some of them already were. Like Utah was enabled. We had already been enabled by the legislature to write rules. ET: So this just went to the Fish and Wildlife Service then? Or the Fish and Wildlife Department. BC: Division ET: Division. Whatever it is at the state level? RG: Well the fish. Oh at the state level. Yea. ET: That’s what you’re talking about. RG: Yea, each of the local. That’s what the council was. The council didn’t have the Fish and Wildlife Service. It only had the states. And they all agreed. They just didn’t they didn’t know how to approach it. And that’s what I had to do. But at this time, at this time we found out that the. Well I found out that we didn’t have standard methods. So if you’re going to inspect and have. You got to have some kind of standard methods and people acceptable to use them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 16   �ET: Now when are we talking about? When did this happen? RG: This was [19]67. It took me ‘67, ‘68 let’s see. No ‘67 was when I did it for Utah. ‘69 I did it for. I was asked to go to Colorado River Wildlife Council and then that took basically it took then through ’70; let’s see ‘68, ‘70. Yea it took me two years to get it all set up so that they would all take. And we finally passed it and it went into effect in [19]73. And from ‘73, I was on the committee for nearly 20 years. And we basically met every year and we would, we had forms they had to fill: had inspection forms that had to have standard methods in order. And people that were on our list as acceptable to do the inspection. And we had to put that all together. And then we would meet periodically to fine-tune the thing if we had problems. But it worked well. ET: Is the Logan River part of that drainage? RG: No ET: It doesn’t ago into the Colorado River does it? RG: No but the states all, what the states all did that was just [like what] that council. The states all passed it for their whole state. So that once we did that then it was the same for the Logan River and the Bear River and as it was. This is all the Great Basin here so. And the Colorado River is. Well a lot, a lot of, about half the states in the Colorado River drainage. And it’s the same way with the upper Colorado States: Idaho, Colorado and Utah kind of sit at the top of the drainage. But it was difficult because we did. And then also all this time I was also working with the American Fisheries Society. And I set up Jim Warren. We started to work on the disciplines in sections. We were trying to create a fish health section. American Fisheries Society was geographic, you know. You had a western division, a central and so on. And the states each would have a section, chapter in those divisions. But there was nothing for the disciplines. And the disciplines were too dilute. And so Jim and I worked/did the changes in the constitution of the American National, American Fisheries Society that set up the formation of discipline sections. And then when that passed, we became the first discipline section to form under that. And so we had the fish health section of the American Fisheries Society. And then fly fish culture and pollution and so forth. All these started to form. And then part of our mission was to police our ranks and to come up with standard methods. And, so we had technical procedures committees and all that stuff, you know, and certification board. And they had an unassembled exam kind of thing. What their criteria, their education and their experience. And they had to meet criteria in order to be considered a certified inspector. And this was all part of the. So, but I actually had done this for the most part before we ever got to, before they ever got to that; Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 17   �because I’d done it through the council. And when it passed the council, Colorado River Wildlife Council, it really was quite a stir because that’s the first regulations in the country. And the Great Lakes Commission filed suit. They called and they wanted some information. This was all of the states on the Great Lakes and Canada. And everybody that was on the great lakes. And so they used the Great Lakes Commission and did something very similar with little odd and end differences depending on geography and so forth. But it was the same thing; each state [province] in Canada ratifying a policy. And then the eastern seaboard states followed suit and then finally the Columbia [River]: the Columbia drainage. And so within about four years we had the biggest. We had basically the trout and salmon of North America covered. ET: Wow RG: All starting from this. For all purposes I started what they call the drainage concept of fish disease control. And so drainages mean a lot to me you know. When I was taking a test after my accident, in the LDS hospital they were giving me these little tests to find out if I was with it or not; or how I was doing. And they wanted me to name the capitals of the states. And I just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom all the way down. And she says, “How do you do that?” Lisa said too. She thought there’s got to be a mistake there. And I said, “No.” I said, "I know where the drainages are. That was so much a part of who was doing what, where and when that I never even had to think about it.” I said, boom, boom, boom. I knew what rivers they were on there, what the drainages were and where the capitals were. ET: So basically it sounds like once you got the Colorado River Wildlife Council to read your proposal RG: Yea ET: They got right on board with it. RG: Yea ET: So you didn’t have to fight that battle that much once they read it. RG: No. I set up a. You say you’ve got this centered more around the tape. I’ve got a copy of [the] resolution, very first; a resolution for their consideration. And why we should be looking at this, you know. And they bought that. They approved that one, that finding in ‘72. ET: Because there weren’t any political enemies of this policy? RG: No. There was more fear. They really were. That was serious business if they had to close hatcheries, because it meant destroying the fish. You might have to Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 18   �destroy 100,000 pounds of fish. And so, Nevada was hard. And Nevada said you can’t close. Willow Beach had IPN virus: that big national hatchery down there by Lake Mohave. I remember well we had a big knock-down drag out over that too. And I said, “If we close Willow Beach we’re not going to have fish for a season, for a whole season, which hurts. You know licensing and that type of thing. And so I said to them “Well so handle it. Handle it.” But I told them, “No I think what I would like to do then, if that’s the case. Is that the only reason you’re not going for this.” And they said, “Yea, we simply can’t. We can’t handle destroying that many fish because we won’t have fish to satisfy our program.” And I said, “If most of these programs are like ours, they’ve got surplus fish. And so let’s talk to all of these seven states and they’ll, see if we can get enough surplus fish out of all of those states to cover your needs for the loss of Willow Beach.” And that’s what we did. So it’s all having a heavy impact on Utah too. And you know we destroyed for IPN we destroyed the Kamas Hatchery and destroyed the fish: disinfected. You have to disinfect it with chlorine. You know and start over. And we did it with Springville; we did it with Logan hatchery here and the one at Loa. But [we] didn’t have to do them all in the same year. ET: So did that result in wiping out IPN? RG: Yea, never got it back again. And I had also been pushing for fish quality so hard and measuring stress that I started selling the idea that it’s a game of inches. I call it incremental degradation. Colorado says, “We call that incremental aggravation.” And I said, “How about incremental defecation.” And we was teaching that if the fish, the hatchery is properly managed, properly loaded and the fish are properly handled, you’re not going to have these diseases. Even if you have them, it won’t be too serious. We just can’t afford to have them go with that disease out where the wild fish are going to get clobbered. Let’s see I retired in 2000. Yea it was 2000. Then we had, we used to feed a lot of antibiotics you know on a grand scale. And after I started that we did the bacterial diseases and so forth. We hadn’t since 1972. Since from ‘72 to 2000 we only used antibiotics twice in that whole, that whole period. Because it was a proper approach and disciplined approach to the raising of fish that made the difference. And then when they finally, the FDA started passing laws that said you couldn’t use these drugs: antibiotics. Or you couldn’t use the stuff even to just clean the gills up you know. And I said, “I don’t.” Boy they were afraid to drop some of that stuff. And I said, “I don’t think you’re going to have, just keep doing what you’re doing and you won’t have, you’re going to have a very minor problem.” And that’s what they did. . . . But it was, we just never let up on the game of that business you know; you can’t. And then when I went to work. When Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 19   �I retired, Colorado asked me to come and talk to them. They had a problem with their fisheries managers were not agreeing with, particularly whirling disease. And I wasn’t working for Utah anymore. Eddy Coachman, who was their Chief of Fisheries; I had never been on his Christmas card list. We were kind of enemies. Because I’d never agree to what Eddy was doing. Anyway he’s the one that asked me to come and talk to them, which made me suspicious; probably going to hang me or something. But they paid the way, so I agreed to go. And for three days I fielded questions from them. Eddy just says, “I’m gonna let you handle this.” He says, “I’m, I have nothing left to say to them.” So I fielded a lot of really tough questions. That’s when they said the incremental aggravation. Anyway I told them, “You guys, you’re losing track of what, of what you’re all about.” And I told them. And I still. And I gave this lecture to Utah a number of times too. But I said, “We have, our mandate is to be stewards of the natural resource. Agriculture mandate is to be stewards of commodity. Production of commodity, they’re not always happy playmates.” And I said, “What makes it tough for us in this business, for the state fisheries programs, is that when you. A lot of ours is pure recreation. The rainbow trout and stuff that we plant, that’s in a sense it’s a commodity; because we’re selling our licenses and so forth.” But I said, “The rest of the part, the wild cut throat and all of this stuff. All of the [?] the least chubs and the humpback suckers and stuff like that in the Colorado.” I said, “That’s stewardship. And they hadn’t thought about that.” And I said, “You can, you can. The further you get away from stewardship. Over here with the rainbow, we can. There are a lot of things we can do with the rainbow. We can put them back. But over here you can’t go out and kill out all the cut throat because some of them are endangered species, you know. And in fact you couldn’t even if you wanted to.” And they had not thought about that so. I had sold all that to Utah years ago. And you’ve got, you’ve got to be concerned. The rainbow we can do something anytime. It would be costly but we can do it. But over here you’ve got these wild cut throat and there’s nothing we can do. And so that’s it. You know. ET: So your approach with the wild fish is habitat RG: Habitat, yea. Habitat and making sure that if there are any fish. I also classified all the streams in the state. And I had help from the managers to do that. And they gave them how I wanted them ranked you know. So that would go in our computer database so if this says you’re gonna plant more rainbow trout in Gunnison Lake and that’s not supposed to be there, the computer will flag that. And, so we don’t run the risk of just inadvertently putting them where we shouldn’t. And that had all become part of the operation. And so I say it’s hard because what we did had an impact on the whole state and all of the fisheries. And when we started to decide, when we wanted to say when we discovered. We didn’t know. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 20   �When I first got here our ideas of a cut throat trout were relatively primitive including mine. No mine, yea mine were pretty primitive too. It’s nice to be primitive every once in a while. But anyway a cut throat was a cut throat was a cut throat trout you know. We knew. We knew about the Colorado River Cut Throat and the Bonneville Cut Throat and Bear Lake Cut Throat and so forth. But we didn’t treat it that way. We were getting eggs out of the Yellowstone Lake. Finding a lot of Yellowstone cut throats and then we would take a few locally. But we weren’t managing that way. And then we discovered, we found a pure strain of Bonneville cut throats in Trout Creek or in Deep Creek mountains on the, like on the Nevada border. And then we were convinced they were pure, pure Bonneville cut throat. And this point we started analyzing all the DNA and all that other stuff so we could actually identify the Bear Lake cut throat is actually a Bonneville cut throat. And that all is because this was, this was Lake Bonneville. And over on the other side, it’s the Colorado River cut throat. The Colorado cut throat they call it. And, but, so we had done so much damage through bad management and so forth. And so the certification law added a whole new wrinkle. And so if I wanted to put, I wanted to reclaim cut throat water through like . . . And we got a lot of streams like that. Where the cut throat, the cut throat are. There were cut throat up in the, really high waters. And … but you couldn’t put anything up there. You want to start it again. Get cut throat up there. But it’s got to be the right cut throat going to the. And it’s got to be a Bonneville cut throat going into Bonneville cut throat water. And then we had management populations and also recreation populations. You had to . . . that was part of the management. You often didn’t even allow fishing. But you would use that as a source to get some of the other stuff started in another place. But you had to have that all certified, those populations. And it took a couple of years to certify a population. And we would do that here. We would certify the populations. And then they were free to take eggs or fish. Usually they would take eggs. And then move them to another drainage and let them hatch in another whatever other stream. And, so that all became part of a kind of a routine operation. And we’ve, we kept the Bonneville’s off just recently, off the rare endangered species. They were, they wanted to list them as endangered species which would have: we could kiss the management good bye then. Because then you can’t do anything. But, that all becomes part and parcel of that whole. And then the system that HCP: Health Condition Profile system. That’s probably the one that I, that I’m best known for is the Health Condition Profile. And we just call it HCP. But I used to call it autopsies. And then I found out that’s not what I was doing. Did you know that? ET: Necropsies. RG: Do you know why? ET: No Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 21   �RG: An autopsy is of your own species. ET: Oh RG: So fish don’t autopsy themselves. So a human can autopsy another human; that’s an autopsy. But it is necropsy. And I told them, “But fish don’t have necks. We’ll call it necropsy.” Well they don’t have knees either. But and then I started that and that’s. When I quit or retired I had around about a thousand of them done in the state and I kept track of both the hatchery ones and the wild ones. ET: So the HCP was done on a dead fish RG: Yea. You would. EG: Okay RG: Yea. What it is. In an infinite population, more or less, a big population I would have to have 20 fish. But I could, I could take from the 20 fish and say especially if they were the same year class. I could take and I can tell what’s wrong, the condition of the whole water with those 20 fish statistically. And I had, I had done the program. I’ve got a book out on it. And I wrote and designed a computer program for it. So you entered your data and it would calculate it and then type the report form. ET: Wow RG: And so I taught that. And just, just everyone, they’re still using it. I thought probably that it would disappear. But Lisa and I went through the lab in Seattle, that big fisheries center they got up there. I know a lot of those people. And they introduced me as we were going. The gal was doing some work with one of the. And they introduced me and she says. She’s calling it the Goede index. And I said, “You didn’t get that from me.” It supposed to be the Health Condition Profile. And that’s, apparently that’s what they’re starting to call it: the Goede index. And now whether it’s a big research project or what, it’s just one of their tools. Even if you look at one fish, if you catch it up at White Pine, you can open that fish and you can get some idea where he fits in this scheme. You know, whether it’s something you should be worried about. And so, but I have people tell me that I was the chief source of mortality in the states too. I sweep down there in the north and kill all the first born and things like that once a year. ET: So I want to know if you have been inducted into the Fish Culture Hall of Fame. RG: Nope, not yet. One thing you have to do there is get someone to ET: Nominate ya. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 22   �RG: Nominate you. I was surprised when I got in the Sneszko Award because it’s kind of the same kind of thing but for pathologist. You know. BC: I met a guy in Flagstaff that nominated himself for a Pulitzer Prize. RG: Well someone’s got to do it. ET: We’re not going to have much time left on our card I think. Doesn’t this last about an hour and a half on the high. BC: I don’t if you’re on the high end or not. RG: Is there anything that you wanted me to concentrate on. ET: You’re doing great. BC: We might have to do another session sometime. RG: There’s just so much. BC: I was sort of curious about. Tell us a little bit about Bill Sigler. RG: Okay. Well you’ve got the Mossback book. [Mossbacks by Ron Goede and Lisa Duskin-Goede: Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives: 925 G551] ET: Well I was going to ask you. Has Lisa. Has Lisa done the Mossback’s work. Has she, did she interview all the guys. RG: She interviewed them, yea. And she helped; she didn’t finish that whole study. (That was one of those things that, what was her name? Kathy Pearcy (was it Pearcy) in Humanities or something—for someone else. [Lisa] was doing that when she was doing gerontology and all that stuff. She thought that would be a good Ph.D. program.) ET: Well just briefly maybe you ought to mention who the Mossback’s are since we brought it up. RG: Okay. But, you have, we gave you a copy of . . . BC: Yea, I have a copy of that. ET: Just mention who are the Mossbacks. RG: Okay. The Mossback’s were: it’s a little hard to define because it started informally, you know, when Bill Sigler retired in 1974. And he was bummed out Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 23   �about retiring he didn’t like that. And, so we had a kind of a get-together. A lot of his old students got together and had a little seminar: a little symposium. Anyway that didn’t start the Mossbacks, but it got them talking about it. Well these guys are all, they were. The mossbacks were originally were old Bill Sigler’s, older students. And Sigler came out of the, retired from the war, WWII. These guys were mostly GI’s and most of them out of WW II on the GI Bill; a lot of them combat veterans. And that was a little different, not your average college freshman, these guys. A lot of them had things they still won’t talk about. So anyway, we decided to get together. About three years in a row we got together and then we just decided that you had to be in this business for a while before you got to do this. And we call them mossbacks. Because you have to be there long enough until you’ve got moss on your back. And but they’re, they’re all over. They’re not just Utah though. They’re all, most of them, are from within reasonable [distances], like Fort Collins. McConnell was from Fort Collins. He got that second Ph.D. Bill McConnell he taught at Colorado State until he retired. Bob Behnke wrote the book; this new book on trout and salmon of the world: great book. And Jay Udy is in his 90s now. And he was in mapping before the war effort: cartography and that sort of thing. Stacy Gebhards, he was here and he’s got a number of good books out. He was a good biology and he was Chief of Fisheries for a while for Idaho. He’s written a book called Wild Thing: [backcountry tales and trails] it’s about his career. He took Arthur Godfrey. There were three: Arthur Godfrey, Walter Hickel and there was one other. He took them all on a float trip down the Salmon River. I was kidding him. You know, Hickel was the one that said you can’t let nature run wild. ET: Wasn’t he Interior Secretary? RG: Yea ET: Yea RG: He was Governor of Alaska too. ET: Alaska RG: Anyway. So anyway these guys, Fred Eiserman. Fred was just inducted into the Wyoming Hall of Fame, along with Jim Bridger. I’m going wow! You’re, that’s, isn’t he a little older than you. I said, “I don’t think I’ve met him. He is a mossback?” No I’m serious. It’s in the, I’ve got the magazine and they had a big ceremony. It’s a serious award. There were four people that were inducted. It’s the Wildlife Hall of Fame or something. It’s not a Fish and Game type of thing, but Wilderness Hall of Fame. And Fred got his degree here. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 24   �ET: Fred? RG: Fred Eiserman and he worked for Wyoming. But Wylie is a good friend of mine and he’s the youngest one. And Stew Clark just died. Eight of them are gone now. So that’s one of the problems with this kind of a group. So we have every year when one of them drops out, we have a toast. And break the glass you know. The first year, well Sigler was still alive when Bud Phelps died. We threw the glass. We decided to throw, just throw them in. Let’s do just like they do in the movies and we’ll throw the glass in the fireplace. But I found out only about half of them could hit it. We had glass everywhere, boy. It took us about an hour to clean up all the glass. So we started putting a rock in a garbage can and we’d throw them in the garbage can then finally. But there is Al Regenthal: he is about 87 now. No he’s older than that. Anyway, most of them are up there. And, I basically, when I wrote the little prologue that I pointed out that we: one thing that occurred to us as we were doing all this. And of course I was a part of that from the beginning. But these guys were the vanguard of a very young profession. They were the first ones out there actually doing some science and not just empirical wisdom. And it was kind of interesting. They were born in the depression, tempered by war. And it was serious. Some of them had some pretty tough times. So and they went into school probably couldn’t have done that if it hadn’t have been for the GI Bill. Regenthal and Essbach and McConnell all came out here together from New Jersey. And Raganthall’s still with Utah, Arizona. Essbach went to Arizona, working for their fish and game. And McConnell was at Colorado State teaching. And McConnell just died. ET: So it sounds like your career kind of, and theirs spans the transition from folk wisdom to scientific-based. Scientifically-based RG: Yea. That’s probably a good one. I haven’t used that, that’s probably a good term. I always called it empirical wisdom. You know. Just because it, a lot of it was empirical it wasn’t scientific. But a lot of it was good stuff. And a lot of the early stuff before those guys was just terrible. And it was, if it was wet it was a quality fish. So but that’s when you carp and everything else you know. So, it’s pretty important I think. But their level, I think we were good for the, our effort was good for . . . . And I’ve been told that several times by people who’ve retired since. That he felt that, that our effort through the experiment station and so forth elevated the fisheries and brought it to a different plane. And it’s hard. They didn’t have good hatchery people. I was their technical advisory because I was coming up with all the new stuff. But they had Chief of Hatcheries too, but the guys didn’t know anything. And they were regional. And this was a big thing that I changed. They were, each region like the northern region in Ogden, would have somebody. Their Chief, their fisheries manager would be in charge of the hatchery. It was a line staff organization. And I told them. I said, “These guys don’t know anything about culture.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 25   �So I wrote a fairly involved definition of culture. And told, let’s see Bill Geer got to be Director at that particular time, Bill Geer was director. And I told him, “We would like to, I would like to see you centralize the hatchery; because they’ve got to be working for someone who actually understands hatcheries.” And so the rest of the organization is still strictly line staff. But the hatcheries were centralized. And then there was a Chief of Hatcheries in a Salt Lake office who came out of the culture scenario. And then I knew a world-class fish culturist, Joe Valentine, who was wanting out of the Fish and Wildlife Service. He already had 18 years with them. And so, I got them to hire him. He was willing to come. Joe started the work for them. And I liked Joe. And Joe and I got along really well. So that was a big help too. So we, we had a good staff. And I think Utah led the way on fish health management because nobody had that. That drainage concept really brought the thing to the range of possibility. We’d failed many times because there was just too many, you couldn’t draw something up for Utah that fit Florida, you know, because it’s just a whole different ballgame. In the southeast water, something they pump out of their basement. And here it’s the lynchpin of survival you know. So anyway it’s very important and I felt good about it and Sigler. I point that out in the Mossback book that one phrase he always used that I coined is: That it was a privilege to serve. And so I . . . . there’s just a few things that I get emotional about. And that’s where it was: a great bunch of people. And that’s not easy to maintain that level. I don’t know if they’re at that point anymore. ET: When you say it was a privilege to serve. That’s sort of an old-school approach to public service RG: Yea. ET: So you felt, you felt the weight. I’m asking I guess. You felt the weight of the public responsibility on your shoulders? RG: Yea, this was our mandate to steward the natural resource. And do a decent job of it. And a lot of the battles were just sheer ethics. You know. Yea, boy I had some tremendous . . . Boy I remember one big battle I had with them. I got up and left the meeting. And I still had to drive back to Logan. And I was furious. And I said “I’ve bent over backwards to do a lot for this outfit. But I[‘ll be] damned if I’m going to bend over forwards.” ET: And that was with whom? RG: With the fisheries staff. And then when, over whirling disease when the Leavitt’s were, when . . . that was, those were black days. ET: Yea, we haven’t even talked about whirling disease. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 26   �BC: Yea, we haven’t talked about whirling disease. RG: Oh wow. Well those were. That was the end of a lot of things. We got bad hurt on that: a lot of people lost their jobs. ET: Do we need to schedule another session? RG: Yea I think if you’re. Because now you’re ready to really get into some of those Things . . . There are some things there that are kind of funny too. And I even have, I got along with the Leavitt’s and then I didn’t get along with them you know. Dane Leavitt, the Governor’s brother [Mike Leavitt]. I like Dane. He’s a lawyer in Cedar [City, Utah]. BC: Did they ever try to sell insurance for the whirling disease or? RG: The Levitt Group. Yea, no. Mark who . . . they were always covering up for Mark. He was the one that was screwing things up. Young Mark. And he’s one of those guys that would always answer the phones in an important meeting and just sit there and talk. And that just really hacks me off when people do that. And so I called him, and I called his brother Dane in Cedar. Said, you know, “I said I want Mark’s phone number, cell phone number.” And he was suspicious right away because he knew I didn’t like Mark. And I told him what he was doing. And of course that even irritated Dane. And he like that so much he set it up. He decided. He had somebody call. I told him what I wanted is that we got a meeting on Thursday and I want someone to call Mark at that meeting and ask for me. And so that’s what they did. Dane set it up and Mark picked that phone up and he says, “Hello.” And then he says, “Oh.” He says, “Oh.” He says, “Here it’s for you.” Oh yea. I don’t know whether Mark ever found out that that was Dane. ET: Well let’s, why don’t we stop here. It looks like we need to talk about whirling disease, some of your ethical battles. You want to talk more about Bill Sigler? BC: I’d be curious to talk just about Logan and stuff and that. RG: Yea. ET: So we need to have another session with you I think. We don’t want to wear you out all in one. RG: Yea. ET: Are you doing okay? RG: Oh yea. It’s just that. When Eisner read that little bio sketch I did for the Mossback book he said. He said he could see. He said I could see reading that Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 27   �BC: that you had a calling. And it’s actually true. That idea of quality really was stuck in doing something. And I’ve always been very public service oriented, service oriented. I’m not interested in the other stuff. I don’t really care about the material stuff that goes along with it, because it usually doesn’t. But anyway it was so. It is hard to talk about that without setting that foundation. Yea. That’s good. ET: That was great. This has been a great session. BC: I’m afraid to turn this thing off that I’ll erase it or something. RG: You know when we joined, when we became the. Oh! When we became the Natural Resource, Department of Natural Resources and the Division of Wildlife Resources under the department, that was not a happy day either. You know. That was back in the ‘70s. Bud Phelps was Director then, and Phelps was a good friend. And the people, the guys, all the parks and forests, everyone became part of the . . . and there were, they shared a coffee room. It was the old DWR coffee room. But they said, Bud said, they were sniping at each other, always just under their breath. And Bud Phelps came out with a directive then that said, “They’ll be no sniping in the coffee rooms.” It was a directive. And so I went out in the hall with him and I said. “You know he used to have a wall committee. You couldn’t put anything on the wall unless it passed the wall committee.” BC: We had one of those in Flagstaff. RG: Oh hey. BC: The Classics committee is what they called it out there. RG: Well I told Bud. “Well you know now you’re gonna have to, now your gonna have to form a snide comment committee.” And he says, “What do you mean?” And I said, “Well someone’s gonna have to decide in whether a snide comment has in fact been made.” And he sat there and stared at me. And I said, See right now you’re wondering if I’ve made a snide comment. ET: That’s one of the things I like about you Ron, your sense of humor. RG: That’s the only thing that keeps you up and running. ET: Well, do you have a calendar available? Do you want to try and set up another appointment now or later? BC: I don’t have a calendar with me but I’m usually pretty open. ET: Let me grab mine. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ron Goede, 16 October 2008 28   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/270">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/270</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-11-12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald William Goede interviews, 16 & 28 October 2008, and transcriptions Description An account of the resource In Ron Goede's first interview he talks about growing up in Nebraska, earning a bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Lincoln, joining the Air National Guard in Nebraska, attending Utah State University to earn a Master's Degree in fisheries, and his work in various fisheries throughout the United States, especially in Utah at Utah State University. In his second interview Mr. Goede talks about his work as a fish pathologist in Utah, whirling disease in fish, water stewardship, politics: his fight to get good science into the Utah fisheries and water legislation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Goede, Ronald William, 1934- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Cole, Bradford R. Subject The topic of the resource Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Interviews Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Family Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Career in Fisheries Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Childhood and youth Fisheries sciences--Research--Utah--Logan River Fisheries sciences--Research--Missouri Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Friends and associates Willoughby, Harvey Morris, George Snieszko, Dennis Stanislas United States--Air National Guard Doctoral students--Utah--Logan Fishes--Diseases--Research--Utah Fishes--Quality--Research--Utah--Logan Fishes--Quality Fish hatcheries--Utah--Logan Fishery policy--Utah Colorado River Wildlife Council Fishery policy--United States American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section Sigler, William F. Mossbacks (Club) Whirling disease--United States Whirling disease--Research--Utah Whirling disease--Research--West Virginia Utah. Division of Wildlife Resources Utah--Politics and government Fishery management--Utah Trout Unlimited Fishery research stations--Utah Fisheries--Utah--Monitoring Fishery scientists--Professional ethics Utah State Agricultural College. Wildlife Dept. Mentoring in education--Utah--Logan Student contests--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Women in fisheries--Utah--Logan--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Nebraska Logan (Utah) Alaska Logan Canyon (Utah) Colorado River Lostine River (Idaho) Utah Colorado Kamas (Utah) Madison River (Wyo. and Mont.) Strawberry Reservoir (Utah) Scofield Reservoir (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 2000-2009 20th century 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 10 & Box 3 Fd. 1 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2RonGoede Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 16 October 2008 28 October 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-10-16 2008-10-28 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/98299d89fc2600392968a9494cc4d429.mp3 c48ca7c3ba064634261bd8f333e851f0 https://highway89.org/files/original/421e7a3b1ce25ce28b62cb6bc72cccae.pdf 64dc3f1b02596da2fa51daccc2f9d384 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Forest Army When President Franklin D. Roosevelt entered the White House, he faced an economic crisis of extreme proportions, the Great Depression. The Civilian Conservation Corps, created in 1933, was one of Roosevelt's New Deal programs. It had two major goals: to help provide relief from unemployment and to protect natural resources nationwide. The Civilian Conservation Corps, or CCC, provided training and work for 2.5 million young men and succeeded in helping to protect, provide access to and direct attention towards America's wild places. CCC workers were paid a wage of $30 per month, $25 of which went to support their families back home. When Cache County was allotted 113 spots in the program, 275 men applied. Beginning in 1933, uniformed CCC workers labored throughout Logan Canyon. That first summer, they built a camp at Tony Grove, called Camp F-1. The camp included a mess hall, recreation hall, barracks, blacksmith shop, hospital, and several other buildings. CCC enrollees in Logan Canyon worked on projects such as planting trees, building dams and bridges, fixing roads, cleaning and repairing campgrounds, stocking fish, repairing soil erosion, and fighting forest fires. In their free time, they made belts out of snake skins, played baseball, and pranked newcomers by sending them on nighttime hunts for the “snipe,” a mythical creature which was rumored to inhabit the canyon. According to an article printed in the Herald Journal in September 1933, "One of the most completely successful of all the items on the New Deal program seems to be the forestry work of the Civilian Conservation Corps. . . So well is the project working out that a person is inclined to wonder if it might not be a good thing to make this forest army a permanent affair. . . All of this of course would be pretty expensive but it might be money well spent. . . certainly the question deserves serious consideration. This forest army is too good an outfit to be discarded off-hand." The Guinavah-Malibu campground amphitheater, completed in 1936, is part of the legacy of the CCC. The amphitheater boasts a stage of limestone surrounded by rows of benches, enough seating for up to 1,000 people. Today, the amphitheater is used for lectures, concerts, religious services, and local nature and history programs, such as those sponsored by Stokes Nature Center each summer. It also remains a standing tribute to the CCC, a group that left a lasting legacy both through their conservation work, and in the hearts and minds of Americans. Sources: Portraits in Time: Logan Canyon, a Historical Guide. Published by Bridgerland Travel Region and the United States Forest Service Logan Ranger District. Utah.gov History to Go website: http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/from_war_to_war/the civilianconservationcorps.html. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Utah State History website: http://history.utah.gov/research_and_collections/photos/ccc.html. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/273">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/273</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Forest army Description An account of the resource The Civilian Conservation Corps of the 1930s left a lasting legacy, both nationally and locally, including a well-known landmark in Logan Canyon. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Civilian Conservation Corps (U.S.)--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Conservation of natural resources--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Forest conservation--Utah--Logan Canyon--History New Deal, 1933-1939--Utah--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast7ForestArmy Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Feb. 7, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-02-07 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/494e02ae73d2cbde70395c8b562b0013.mp3 a31635e8399cc72eaa54b984f1c6f3e5 https://highway89.org/files/original/55851099196cd0f64e536b60346ce26a.pdf 7f3fe84c0092fdb6113e93665357c2bf PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series The Naming of Logan Canyon Fur trappers came to Cache Valley in the 1800s in search of beaver. As they explored the valley, they left many place names in their wake. For example, the name Cache Valley comes from the French word “cache” meaning “to hide.” Not wanting to lug their furs around with them, trappers would “cache” or hide their furs in a hole dug into a riverbank to keep them safe until they could take them to market. The name for Logan Canyon and its river also came from these early explorers. North West Fur Company trappers were the first Euro-Americans to explore Logan Canyon. They came to Cache Valley in 1818, led by Michel Bourdon. When Bourdon was killed by Indians west of Yellowstone, his followers named Logan Canyon's river after him in his honor. Later, trappers renamed the Bourdon River for another dead trapper, Ephraim Logan. Although Logan's name is well-known, not much is known about his past. The first record mentioning Logan shows him in St. Louis in 1823 joining a fur expedition led by William H. Ashley. He signed onto the expedition at a fixed salary of $200 per year, and traveled to the Rocky Mountains to trap beaver. During the summer and fall of 1824, he trapped from the Bighorn to Bear River, and spent the winter of 1824-25 in Cache Valley. In 1826, he traded his furs at the rendezvous in Cache Valley, and the next summer, he attended the rendezvous at Bear Lake. Later that year, Logan along with 15-20 other trappers set off for the Snake River Valley. Along the way, Logan and three others diverged from the rest of the group to explore some minor rivers. They had planned to meet up with their group in a few days, but mysteriously disappeared. Nothing was ever heard from them again. Accounts differ on what exactly happened to these men, but many agree that they were probably killed by Indians. In 1828, Logan's friends named the Logan River in his honor. When the Mormon pioneers arrived in the 1850s, they learned the name of the river, but not where the name came from. When it came time to name their city, John P. Wright suggested the name Logan. There are differing accounts about whether this name came from the river on whose banks the city was built or a friendly Indian chief named Logan Fontenelle, who made great efforts to keep peace between his people and the Mormon settlers. Whichever the case, the name Logan was adopted, and now lives on as a city, river, and canyon. Sources: Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Somers, Ray. The History of Logan. Somers Historical Press, 1993. Somers, Ray, Julie Van Horn, Amy Reimann, and Clayton S. Russell. History of Cache Valley. Somers Historic Press, 2004. Simmonds, A. J. “Names Change but the Places Stay the Same.” In God’s Lap: Cache Valley history as told in the newspaper columns of A. J. Simmonds, A Herald Journal Book. Herald Journal, 2004. Record, Patricia L. “The Trapper, the Indian, and the Naming of Logan.” Utah Historical Quarterly. 75.4 (Fall 2007). “The Legacy of Ephraim Logan” presented to the Logan City Council by Steve Murdock, President, �Cache Historical Society, Dec. 1997. Hafen, Leroy R., ed. Trappers of the Far West. University of Nebraska Press, 1983: 295, 341. Christensen, Vera A. “What's Behind Names of Cache Valley Towns?” The Herald Journal 15 Nov. 1982. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/276">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/276</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naming of Logan Canyon Description An account of the resource This is the story of Ephraim Logan, a fur trapper thought to be the person after whom the Logan River was named. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah)--Discovery and exploration Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--Discovery and exploration Logan Canyon (Utah)--Name Logan, Ephraim Logan (Utah)--Name Fur traders--West (U.S.)--History Fur trade--West (U.S.)--History Fur trade--Utah--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Logan (Utah) Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast12NamingOfLoganCanyon Date Created Date of creation of the resource. March 15, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-03-05 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c436bb48af02c7fb721b2cec31781074.mp3 f5eb6d5e17b5ee875c684e92354cb23e https://highway89.org/files/original/191fb7bd48b5d4bad3992247e3fa47ba.pdf 192b70b4059006892c6798e8f56d743c PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Plane Crash of 1953 At this location, you will see a 6 ½-foot-tall stone memorial with 40 names on it. On January 6, 1953, a military transport plane crashed at this site while transporting American Korean War soldiers from Seattle, Washington, to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. The plane was overfilled with soldiers eager to return home after having been away from their families for so long. Due to the way the military organized its transports, all the passengers had last names that started with H, J, and K. According to the flight log, the plane ended up carrying about 400 pounds more than it was designed for. Everything was fine when the pilot radioed in at Malad City, Idaho. But the plane was not heard from again. Air patrol and civilians began a search through the Bear River Mountains and found the remains of the plane in Pat Hollow. It had completely disintegrated on impact. There were no survivors, and little of the wreckage was even recognizable. When the remains were analyzed, the cause of the crash was determined to be ice that had formed on the wings, interfering with the plane's lift. The fact that the plane was overloaded added to the problem. It also appeared that the plane had entered the mountains from the southeast heading northwest, indicating they might have been trying to return to Malad for an emergency landing. Since the crash occurred in the middle of winter in an area with deep snow and low temperatures, removing all of the bodies proved extremely difficult. A base camp was set up and the site was guarded until spring when the Army removed the last of the human remains. In 1967, Gordon B. Hinckley of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints dedicated this memorial to the victims of the crash. No one was more affected by this tragedy than the relatives of the victims. In the following years, some traveled a great distance from their homes in southern states to visit this memorial site. Even today, visitors sometimes find pieces of wreckage, including items that once belonged to the passengers of the plane. Many decide to leave these tokens on top of the memorial. Sources: Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/279">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/279</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Plane crash of 1953 Description An account of the resource In 1953, a military transport plane carrying American soldiers home from the Korean War crashed in Pat Hollow. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Aircraft accidents--Idaho--Pat Hollow (Franklin County)--History--20th century Aircraft accidents--Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest--History--20th century Aircraft accident victims--Monuments--Idaho--Pat Hollow (Franklin County) Soldiers--Idaho--Pat Hollow (Franklin County)--Death Airplanes, Military--Accidents--Idaho--Pat Hollow (Franklin County)--History--20th century Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Pat Hollow (Idaho) Franklin County (Idaho) Idaho United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast14PlanCrashof1953 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. March 28, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-03-28 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/a58dcf8efc642261ecb18d86f06c28de.mp3 367aa32349939d2dcea490ae27afe2aa https://highway89.org/files/original/5c6d95ce69369de07337120fafa61597.pdf 0978dcc2b0eeb630146371ab0dab5d0c PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Power Struggle In 1895, the Hercules Power Company built a plant at the mouth of Logan Canyon to provide power for Logan. Households were charged per 40 watt light bulb used. The first bulb cost $1.25 per month, and each additional one cost 50 cents per month. Since there were no other power providers in the area, Hercules had a monopoly and charged what they wished. At a special election in 1902, citizens voted in favor of a $65,000 bond to allow the City of Logan to build a municipal power plant to provide power at lower rates. The city constructed a new hydroelectric dam, which today is called Second Dam. They charged 35 cents per light bulb or 3 lights for $1.00. The Hercules Power Company was not pleased at having competition. During the summer of 1903, in the middle of construction of the city's new power building, Hercules raised their dam 5 feet, which flooded a greater area, including where the new building was being constructed. Water flooded across the brand new floor of the building. Since the rights to the river were owned by the federal government, Logan City filed a federal application attempting to claim rights to the site, but Hercules had beaten them to it, filing an application only ten days before. After a heated debate, the federal government made a compromise and authorized both Hercules and Logan City to operate dams on the Logan River so long as they didn't interfere with one another. The monopoly was broken and Logan residents had two separate power providers competing for their money. A rate war ensued. Rates dropped to 20 cents per light, then to 10 cents. Running a power plant with less and less revenue became problematic. It was made worse by the fact that this was a time before metering. To determine their customers' bills, power companies would send a person called a “checker” to visit each house and count the number of lights and other electric appliances, such as toasters and irons. People paid per light and appliance, not for how long they used them, so no effort was made to conserve electricity. Furthermore, people were not always honest when checkers came to call. Appliances like toasters could be hidden away and, therefore not paid for. Electric metering helped solve many of these problems. And despite the difficulties of high demand and intense competition, Logan City's power plant has survived throughout the years. Today, about 10 percent of Logan's electricity is produced by the city’s hydroelectric power plants like the one here at Second Dam. As for the Hercules Power Plant, it is no longer in operation. Ownership of the plant changed hands several times over the years, and it ceased operation in 1971. In 1973, it was sold to Logan City for a public park. Sources: Portraits in Time: Logan Canyon, a Historical Guide. Published by Bridgerland Travel Region and the United States Forest Service Logan Ranger District. Cache Valley Visitors Bureau website: http://www.logancanyon.com/index.php?id=17. Logan City website: http://www.loganutah.org/Light%20and%20Power/Plants%20and %20Substations/index.cfm. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. �The History of a Valley edited by Joel E. Ricks 1956 � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/282">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/282</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Power struggle Description An account of the resource The first two plants to provide electricity to Logan utilized the Logan River, a power struggle over resources and customers ensued. Voiced by Val Grant. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Val Subject The topic of the resource Hydroelectric power plants--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Hercules Power Company (Logan, Utah)--History Logan City Light and Power (Utah)--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Logan River Second Dam (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast5PowerStruggle Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Jan. 24, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-01-24 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/28e71807721f3d77c34679758d3fd10a.mp3 dea16de2a9934094369da2239f6a49b0 https://highway89.org/files/original/23f512a96f3c37b2adc900318fe19381.pdf 4a61c9210192f545fbefc45480cde8c0 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Beaver Mountain Ski Area Harold Seeholzer loved the outdoors, snow, and skiing. He and his wife Luella wanted to create a place for family recreation during the winter, so in the late 1930s, Harold and other local ski fanatics installed the first lift at Beaver Mountain, a single rope tow. There was no road to Beaver Mountain, so skiers parked on the highway and hiked about a mile to get there. Because of this inaccessibility, operations were moved to the Sinks area a few miles farther up the canyon, but this area had its own problems, and little potential for growth. So in 1945, ski operations at the Sinks shut down. Beaver Mountain still had great potential, despite its problems. Thanks to the efforts of county commissioner El Ray Robinson and others, money was obtained to make the site accessible, and a road and parking lot were built. Further developments came to Beaver Mountain with the help of pledges made by the Mt. Logan Ski Club, the Forest Service, Cache Chamber of Commerce, and Harold and Luella Seeholzer. In 1949, a new tow rope was added, and in 1950, a 2,700 foot T-bar was installed. In 1961, Harold and Luella along with their four children officially formed a corporation. They continued to improve the resort, adding more lifts and buildings. Although the resort was a great and expanding success, one dream remained unfulfilled. From the beginning of his skiing career, Harold Seeholzer dreamed of having a chair lift that went from the base of Beaver Mountain all the way to the top. Harold died in 1968 without seeing this dream realized. However, his family continued to pursue the idea, and in 1970, a 4,600 foot double chair lift was installed at Beaver Mountain. Appropriately, it was named “Harry's Dream.” In 1997, the ski resort came under the care of Harold’s son Ted, his wife Marge, and their children: daughter Annette and her husband Jeff West, and son Travis and his wife Kristy Seeholzer. Each family member does their part to keep the place running. From plowing and grooming the snow to selling tickets and working in the shop, the Seeholzer family operates the resort. Marge manages the ticket office. Jeff and Travis help out wherever needed. Ted oversees the entire operation. Company meetings consist of six family members. And the operation continues to grow. After 1997, the Seeholzers added a new maintenance building and a beautiful lodge addition to accommodate the increasing number of skiers. They converted Harry's Dream into a triple lift, and in 2003, they put in a new lift, which added 400 acres to the resort. They named it Marge's Triple Lift. In 2009, they added a conveyor lift, similar to a moving sidewalk, which has been helpful in teaching new skiers. The Seeholzers have future projects already in mind, and continue to dedicate themselves to making Beaver Mountain Ski Area grow and prosper. In the winter months, an average of 740 skiers per day enjoy the slopes of Beaver Mountain. Today, Beaver Mountain Ski Area encompasses 1,100 acres and is the oldest family-run ski operation in the country. Sources: Ted & Marge Seeholzer. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Beaver Mountain Ski Area website: http://www.skithebeav.com. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/285">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/285</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beaver Mountain Ski Area Description An account of the resource Beaver Mountain Ski Area, the oldest family-run ski operation in the country, began with a single rope tow. Voiced by Val Grant. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Val Subject The topic of the resource Beaver Mountain Ski Resort (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History Ski resorts--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Beaver Mountain (Utah) Family-owned business enterprises--Utah Seeholzer family Seeholzer, Harold Seeholzer, Luella Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Beaver Mountain (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast13BeaverMountainSkiArea Date Created Date of creation of the resource. March 21, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-03-21 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/2f8fd92773c91651420defa0ad1d7c1c.mp3 1f3ea623eaca281fe390a22a4b9d15e0 https://highway89.org/files/original/aabf5ea2176340c41135a145c0911e40.pdf 047f7e90558dfa2e0aed42653957de54 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Too Many Sheep After 1880, sheep overtook cows as the primary livestock of Cache Valley. Herders took their flocks to the West Desert for winter grazing, to irrigated farms in the valley for spring lambing, and to the mountains for summer grazing. Between 1880 and 1900, the sheep population of Cache Valley rose dramatically to 300,000, and Logan Canyon became congested with sheep. As the herds moved, they kicked up so much dust that residents of the valley several miles to the west could see huge clouds of it rising from the mountains. During the summer months, pastures were effectively stripped of vegetation. After consuming all the plants, sheep would pack the bare soil down with their hooves as they moved. Soil compaction and the area’s low level of precipitation guaranteed that nothing could grow back. Plant cover allows snowmelt to sink into the soil and replenish the groundwater supply. It also lets the spring runoff trickle down gradually throughout the summer. Without plant cover, snowmelt plunged straight down the mountain all at once leaving the rivers and valleys below dry by late summer. The plunging waters also took the unanchored soil downstream. In spring, muddy water filled with animal waste and dead sheep flowed out of the canyon, polluting the valley's irrigation and drinking water. Mayor Moroni Price of Smithfield was disgusted by the dead sheep and other animals he had seen in the river. He said at a meeting of concerned citizens that he had just about reached a decision to “drink whiskey from now on.” This was a shocking statement coming from a Mormon community leader, for whom drinking was close to taboo. The situation prompted citizens to approach the federal government about creating a Forest Reserve to protect the watershed. After the Forest Reserve was created, grazing was limited by permits, and the canyon’s environmental health was greatly improved. Sources: Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Johnson, Michael W. “Whiskey or Water: A Brief History of the Cache National Forest.” Utah Historical Quarterly. 73.4 (Fall 2005). U.S. Forest Service website: http://www.fs.fed.us/aboutus. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/288">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/288</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-06-14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Too Many Sheep Description An account of the resource Sheep grazing during the late 1800s led to the deterioration of Logan Canyon. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Grazing--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon Sheep--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--History--19th century Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Rangelands--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1880-1889 19th century 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast1TooManySheep Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Dec. 14, 2010 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2010-12-14 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/68ca0bc1ffd718b26a265b400f683b76.mp3 7296af48a8c1bfab9ea2780c5acf77ad https://highway89.org/files/original/e844513b9ea71c81f8c60f5bad4ac76e.pdf 9e6f85ac066c1a52c1ade5dbf5056aac PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series St. Anne's Ghost Everyone loves a ghost story. Young people in Logan grow up hearing stories about the ghost at “the Nunnery,” a story inspired by St. Anne's Retreat, in Preston Hollow. In the early 1900s, Hezekiah Eastman Hatch, a prominent Logan businessman, built a cabin at the location. His descendants expanded his cabin into a recreation camp for the family. Over time, the camp grew to include 21 structures: two main lodges, six smaller cabins, a playhouse, and several other buildings. Outside, there is a fire pit, fountain, bridge, and swimming pool. In the 1950s, the property was offered to and accepted by the Catholic Church. It became a summer retreat for nuns and was renamed St. Anne's Retreat. At some point after this, the ghost legend was born. There are several versions of the legend. According to one, a nun staying at St. Anne's Retreat became pregnant. To keep the birth a secret, the mother drowned her baby in the swimming pool. Some say that you can hear the voice of a child coming from near the pool. Others claim that the ghost of a nun haunts the retreat, eerily emerging from the forest. Sometime she is accompanied by two white Doberman Pinschers with blood-red eyes. Others have reported seeing a woman dressed in black who appears out of nowhere on the highway near the retreat. And beware if you are a first born son, for if you see St. Anne's Ghost, your own death is imminent! Unfortunately, vandals visited the retreat from time to time, causing a great deal of damage. As the ghost stories circulated, vandalism increased. The nuns became alarmed and eventually no longer wished to stay at the retreat. So the Catholic Church sold the property. Visitors, please note that it is private property. Please be respectful. Sources: Browning, Diane. “A Haunted Retreat.” The Herald Journal 26 Oct. 1986. Moore, Carrie A. “Legends surround St. Ann's Retreat.” Deseret News 22 Jul. 2006. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/291">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/291</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource St. Anne's Ghost Description An account of the resource According to local legend, a mysterious presence haunts St. Anne's Retreat in Logan Canyon. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sidwell, David Subject The topic of the resource Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Folklore Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Saint Anne's Retreat (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast10StAnnesGhost Date Created Date of creation of the resource. March 1, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-03-01 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/fdf53e3eb2669f7b50165477e4db5911.mp3 fabb9344d29b6d57d1d968065fea1cc7 https://highway89.org/files/original/af50a7a52b6c09072f26ce66dd68cc88.pdf 72be29ed175edb3da3bbee1ae3532add PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Old Ephraim One of the most famous residents of Logan Canyon was a grizzly bear named Old Ephraim. Old Ephraim was big even by grizzly bear standards. He was said to stand 9 feet 11 inches tall and weigh approximately 1,100 pounds. However, since grizzlies normally range from 225 to 670 pounds, this estimate is quite possibly an exaggeration used to make a good story even better. It is safe to say, though, that Old Ephraim was intimidatingly large. Like other bears, Old Ephraim was considered a nuisance by the sheep herders grazing their flocks in the canyon because he had a tendency to eat their sheep. Many Logan Canyon bears were hunted and killed by sheep herders trying to protect their flocks. One particular sheep herder named Frank Clark was no exception. Beginning in 1911, Frank took his sheep into Logan Canyon every summer. In the 45 summers he grazed his flock in the canyon, there were only two summers that he failed to kill at least one bear. In 1913, Old Ephraim began to visit Frank's flock. For 10 summers after that, he continued to eat Frank's sheep. And for 10 summers, Frank used traps and guns, attempting and failing to rid himself of the clever and unwelcome visitor. When Frank found Old Ephraim's wallow, a muddy shallow pool of water where the bear spent time, he thought victory was close. He set up a bear trap in the wallow. But Old Ephraim was very clever and picked up the trap without setting it off, dropping it nearby before getting into his pool. Frank tried more traps in the following years with the same result. The conflict between Frank and Old Ephraim continued until 1923 when the grizzly created a new wallow. Frank decided to try his old trick at the new location. The next night, Old Ephraim fell into the trap. One mile downstream, Frank awoke to, in his words, “an awful roar and scream” of “mingled pain and misery.” Frank grabbed his rifle and ran through the dark to the wallow. There, he saw Old Ephraim lunging about on his hind feet. Ephraim's right front foot was caught in the trap and wrapped with 14 feet of chain. Still on his hind feet, the bear began to walk up the bank towards Frank. Terrified, Frank fired his rifle, hitting Ephraim with several shots. The giant bear fell dead. Frank described the death of Old Ephraim in these words. “I sat down and watched his spirit depart from that great body, and it seemed to take a long time, but at last he raised his head just a mite, gasped and was still.” Frank then ran off to find his nearest neighboring herdsman in the canyon, and when he returned, they skinned the bear and burned the carcass. Then, Frank buried the remains at this site now called Ephraim's Grave. Later on, a Boy Scout troop went to the grave site and took the 15 inch skull. They sent it to the Smithsonian, who confirmed that it had belonged to a grizzly bear. In 1978, the skull came back to Logan on a long-term loan from the Smithsonian. It now resides on display in the basement of the Merrill-Cazier Library at Utah State University. Only later did people realize that Old Ephraim was Utah's last grizzly bear. When telling his story afterwards, Frank Clark expressed regret over killing the bear. Today, Old Ephaim's grave stands as a tribute to the grizzly bears that once roamed Logan Canyon. Sources: Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Recorded account of the killing of Old Ephraim written by Frank Clark at the request of the Forest Service. Can be accessed on Utah State University's Merrill-Cazier Library website: http://digital.lib.usu.edu/u?/Ephraim,78. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/294">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/294</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Old Ephraim Description An account of the resource The legendary conflict between sheepherder Frank Clark and Old Ephraim the giant grizzly bear is one of the most widely-told stories of Logan Canyon. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sidwell, David Subject The topic of the resource Old Ephraim (Bear) Grizzly bear hunting--Utah--Logan Canyon Clark, Frank, 1879-1960 Grizzly bear--Utah--Logan Canyon--Folklore Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast8OldEphraim Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Feb. 14, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-02-14 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/e68bc355ecace80fd5ebda813e76ee7b.mp3 59730e73eae69cd35fffe7375cbe6b9b https://highway89.org/files/original/e06019ee4774a4bd88da22ba8cbfb5a5.pdf 2ceb40a02a4bceb44c74e1f493a24832 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Bear Lake Monster Like Loch Ness and many other lakes around the world, Bear Lake keeps a monster-sized secret in its depths. The legend seems to have been born in 1868 when local resident Joseph Rich reported sightings of “a strange serpent creature.” Rich was a correspondent for the Evening Deseret News in Salt Lake City, where his articles and letters about the monster were first published. Between 1868 and 1871, several more sightings of the beast were reported. Four campers claimed that a huge alligator-like animal emerged from the water and destroyed their camp. A local from Paris, Idaho, named Thomas Sleight reported seeing a huge animal three miles out on the lake swimming south with incredible speed. Aquilla Nebeker, a resident of South Eden, saw the monster gobbling his flock of sheep along with several rolls of barbed wire. With each sighting, however, the description of the monster changed dramatically. The Bear Lake monster has been reported to be as little as 6 and as much as 90 feet long. It had a horse-like head and then a snake-like head. Its body has been alternately brown, green, shiny, scaly, or hairy. Through the years, the beast was seen rising out of the water, floating calmly, swimming at great speed, and even walking on the shore. Interestingly, several eyewitness accounts came from men and women greatly respected within the community. This helped to convince people that there really must be some kind of creature inhabiting the lake. Panic rose, and local shop owners saw an increase in gun sales from 1868 to 1870. At different points of time, plots were hatched to capture the beast. A man named Phineas Cook crafted a large fishing hook, attached it to a log float, baited it with sheep meat, and hoped to catch the monster like a huge fish. Someone else suggested running the entire lake through a strainer, but no one knew where to find one of sufficient size. Several years later, Joseph Rich claimed his Bear Lake monster story was a hoax that he invented to help attract tourists to the lake. However, many witnesses stood by their accounts. While the overall fervor about the monster has abated, the legend continues, and the locals still have fun with the story, making boats and parade floats in the image of the beast. Take a look at the beautiful Caribbean-blue waters of the Bear Lake. Do you think something lurks below the surface? Sources: Bagley, Pat. “'Monsterologist' doesn't dismiss the Bear Lake Monster.” Salt Lake Tribune 30 Jul. 2006. Law, Dorothy C. “Bear Lake's monster tales live in history.” The Herald Journal 26 May 1985. Portraits in Time: Logan Canyon, a Historical Guide. Published by Bridgerland Travel Region and the United States Forest Service Logan Ranger District. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/297">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/297</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bear Lake Monster Description An account of the resource Reported sightings of a strange creature in Bear Lake during the 1860s grew into a monster-sized legend. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sidwell, David Subject The topic of the resource Bear Lake Monster Monsters--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--History Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Folklore Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1860-1869 1870-1879 19th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast15BearLakeMonster Date Created Date of creation of the resource. April 4, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-04-04 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/177b4fd585db1b91a0bbdc0182ba4973.mp3 cd7869ef301d8f57e8664fc445a473d5 https://highway89.org/files/original/68474adccaeddcbccb02754442e402e7.pdf e7c36f0fdcb4409759ee4f3ae02eda4e PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Road to Recreation When the Mormon pioneers were first settling in Cache Valley, recreation was very limited. Not only did the pioneers have little time to devote to recreation, they had fewer options. The canyon road at this time was not in the best shape, and recreating far up the canyon was difficult. Logan Canyon was used primarily for the resources it provided. Most of the people who ventured into the canyon were loggers, herders, hunters, or explorers. On July 4, 1873, an LDS stake led by Apostle Brigham Young Jr. spent a day of rest and recreation in the canyon. This may have been the first purely recreational use of the canyon by the pioneers. The first published account of recreation in Logan Canyon showed up in the Ogden Standard on August 17, 1888. The article stated: “Rev. Samuel Unsworth, rector of the Church of the Good Shepherd in this city, returned yesterday, in company with his brother, from a pleasure trip to Logan Canyon. Their appearance proves that the few days resticating have been of great physical benefit to them.” After this, the canyon began to receive increasing mention in the local press as a place for recreation. It is likely at this time a group of Logan’s leading citizens began to make frequent trips to a spot about six miles up Tony Grove Creek. The flowery meadow sprinkled with trees made an idyllic setting for fishing and camping. To those who used the canyon for work only, the sight of people camping just for fun invoked envy. They began referring the area condescendingly as “Tony Grove.” The word “tony” was slang for cultured or high-brow. This name was repeated so often, that it stuck…and grew to include the creek and eventually, the lake that feeds the creek. Today, Tony Grove is one of the most popular hiking and camping locations in Logan Canyon. Sources: Simmonds, A. J. “A Mountain Grove for the 'Tony Set.'” In God’s Lap: Cache Valley history as told in the newspaper columns of A. J. Simmonds, A Herald Journal Book. Herald Journal, 2004. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/300">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/300</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Road to recreation Description An account of the resource In the 1870s, Logan Canyon began to be used for recreation, a novel idea that led to the naming of one of the most well-known areas in the canyon, Tony Grove. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Recreation--Utah--Tony Grove--History Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Tony Grove (Utah)--Name Tony Grove Lake (Utah)--Name Tony Grove Creek (Utah)--Name Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast11RoadToRecreation Date Created Date of creation of the resource. March 8, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-03-08 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/e6c0f0398dafb8857334a9ef971a18ee.mp3 4f3140d3ffbfa12e441ec1905bcbb63b https://highway89.org/files/original/1d07b837277bd1fa300321581a995ad1.pdf 4f72c3d40592cc51c01517e96173bb45 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Witch's Castle Located about 900 feet from the canyon floor, the Wind Caves represent thousands of years of weathering by wind and water. The result is a beautiful cave-like formation with three delicate arches. This limestone formation bears the local name “The Witch's Castle.” The resident witch is known as Hecate, the name of an ancient Greek goddess associated with witchcraft and the underworld. According to legend, if you venture into Spring Hollow, just across the highway, and chant the name of the witch, she will appear. Sometimes she appears with her son, and sometimes with her dogs. She often appears with long white hair, wearing a long pale dress. It is said that she has the ability to kill car engines. Some believe the legend dates back to the 1920s when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints built a girls' lodge at a nearby location. Or it could have come about simply as a result of imagination and inspiration spurred by the unique natural architecture. Whatever the origin, the legend has been preserved in the many so-called documented sightings of Hecate over the years. In one sighting, a man named Clyde was driving his pickup through Logan Canyon. His truck unexpectedly died near Third Dam, and there was a woman standing in the middle of the road. The woman was wearing a long gray coat. Clyde frantically tried to restart the engine as the woman walked around the truck, looking into the window. When she walked behind the truck, it started up again, and Clyde drove off, watching in his rear-view mirror as the woman slowly followed him. Only as he exited the canyon did she disappear. If you are up there at night, you may hear Hecate's dogs howl. The sound is real. As the night canyon wind blows through the caves, it could easily be mistaken for the howling of a supernatural dog with a witch companion. Sources: Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Logan Canyon National Scenic Byway website: http://www.logancanyon.com. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/303">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/303</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Witch's castle Description An account of the resource The Wind Caves, a beautiful natural formation in Logan Canyon, has inspired stories of a supernatural resident, a witch named Hecate. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sidwell, David Subject The topic of the resource Wind Caves (Utah) Wind Caves (Utah)--Folklore Legends--Utah--Logan Canyon Folklore--Utah--Logan Canyon Hecate (Greek deity) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Wind Caves (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast6WitchsCastle Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Jan. 31, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-01-31 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/55e2e799502e41e4a4b5cc0101a66ac0.mp3 0fc8d2ba4bfc6e3f2cf8f5567abf46b2 https://highway89.org/files/original/1431c4cb454c9bb352b6b74fe180b14d.pdf dca0a604abfa6ec3d158b3450966ec15 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Stokes Nature Center's Beginnings Stokes Nature Center operates out of a 3,000 square-foot lodge that sits on U.S. Forest Service land, under a lease agreement with the Forest Service. It was constructed in 1924 by members of the American Legion. After the Legion built a new facility in Logan in the late 1980s, they donated the lodge to the Trapper Trails Council of the Boy Scouts. Finding that it didn't fit their needs, the Boy Scouts left it vacant. Several community members in Logan's First Presbyterian Church and the Bridgerland Audubon Society, seeing a need for nature education in Cache Valley, began to develop the idea of creating a nature center out of the old abandoned building. In August 1996, the church took ownership of the building. Together, the Presbyterian Church and Bridgerland Audubon designated a board to establish a separate organization to develop a not-for-profit nature center. After being abandoned for over two years, the building was in poor shape. Vandals had kicked holes in the walls, broken nearly every pane of glass, and built fires on the tile floors. Nature had begun to reclaim the space, taking its own toll on the building. Trees grew into the sides of the roof, holes in the ceiling let in the weather, and mice built their nests in the cozy interior. However, the location was just right: only a short drive from Logan, but far enough into the canyon to bring people out into nature. And it was free! There were challenges, but there was an even greater amount of determination on the part of many people who believed the community badly needed a center for nature education. A crew of over 200 volunteers worked for more than a year renovating the building to provide a safe and welcoming place for learning. Now, all it needed was a name. Allen and Alice Stokes loved nature and were both active members of the community. Allen was a naturalist and professor at Utah State University, and Alice volunteered her time for many causes. The nature center founders asked Allen and Alice if they could use their name. Reluctantly, the Stokes gave permission, but Allen asked that Alice’s name be put first. He died before the center opened, and Alice switched the names so that his was first. On November 1, 1997, the Allen and Alice Stokes Nature Center was dedicated. In July 2001, after three and a half successful years of programming, the title to the building was turned over to Stokes Nature Center. Since then, the center has operated as an independent nonprofit organization with a mission to provide opportunities for people of all ages to explore, learn about, and develop appreciation and stewardship for our natural world. Sources: Stokes Nature Center website: http://www.logannature.org. Dixon, Bryan. The Allen and Alice Stokes Nature Center in Logan Canyon: The Beginnings. Field Notes from the Allen and Alice Stokes Nature Center. 1.1 (Feb. 1998). Strand, Holly. “The Stokes Legacy.” Wild About Utah. Available on the Wild About Utah website: http://www.bridgerlandaudubon.org/wildaboututah. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/306">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/306</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stokes Nature Center's beginnings Description An account of the resource Stokes Nature Center, the main source of nature education in Cache Valley for over 13 years, began with a group of dedicated volunteers and an old abandoned building. Voiced by Val Grant. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Val Subject The topic of the resource Stokes Nature Center--History Nature centers--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Stokes Nature Center (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast4StokesNatureCenter Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Jan. 18, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-01-18 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0785376b66a41a59e942cc99fa774131.mp3 6de70bf9a087ee6383794911a02f3029 https://highway89.org/files/original/7371fbd836542088afd73e3da071188e.pdf 1802557b4952241c98aaf3d883f5d16d PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series A Growing National Forest The protected area that includes Logan Canyon has grown and changed names many times. In 1903, the Logan Forest Reserve was created by presidential proclamation and covered 107,540 acres. It and other forest reserves across the nation were under the jurisdiction of the Interior Department's General Land Office. Two years after the Logan Forest Reserve was established, Gifford Pinchot, Chief of the Bureau of Forestry at the Department of Agriculture, transferred all forest reserves to his agency and then renamed it the Forest Service. While in office, Pinchot brought millions of acres of land under forest reserve status. The reserve system across the country tripled from 56 million acres in 1905 to 172 million acres in 1910. This is roughly twice the size of the state of Utah. At this time, the Logan Forest Reserve was expanded and renamed the Bear River Forest Reserve. It now included most of the Bear River Mountains up to Soda Springs, Idaho. William Weld Clark, Forest Supervisor for a short time, reported in 1907 the public opinion of Rich County residents to the growth of the protected forest region. “The attitude of the users and neighbors of this Forest is on the whole very friendly and favorable. There are still plenty of kickers who are to be found in all communities and are constitutionally opposed to any regulation by which they are required to ask for something that they have been in the habit of obtaining without consulting anyone.” Pinchot didn’t like the term “forest reserve.” He thought it gave the impression that the forests were set aside and not meant to be used. But in fact, forest reserves have always been meant to have multiple uses, from grazing and timber harvest in moderation to recreational opportunities, as well as protecting the forests for future generations. To emphasize the idea of utility, Pinchot changed “forest reserves” to “national forests.” Thus, the Bear River Forest Reserve became the Bear River National Forest. In 1908, the Bear River National Forest was split. A portion of the Idaho lands were transferred to the Pocatello National Forest, and the remaining area was renamed the Cache National Forest. Over the years, the Cache National Forest transformed many times, as lands were added and subtracted. Notably, in 1915 the Pocatello National Forest was eliminated, and its lands transferred to the Cache National Forest. Then in 1973, in an effort to consolidate management, Cache National Forest merged with neighboring Wasatch National Forest. Idaho lands were transferred to the Caribou National Forest. The result was the Wasatch-Cache National Forest. The most recent change occurred in August, 2007. The Uinta National Forest was merged with the Wasatch-Cache to create the current Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest. The forest covers nearly 2.1 million acres, or nearly 4% of Utah’s total area and is one of the most frequently visited national forests in the nation. References: U.S. Forest Service Website: http://www.fs.fed.us. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Johnson, Michael W. “Whiskey or Water: A Brief History of the Cache National Forest.” Utah Historical Quarterly. 73.4 (Fall 2005). �Forest History Society website: http://www.foresthistory.org. Wilson, Richa. “On Horseback and by Highway: Administrative Facilities of the Wasatch-Cache National Forest 1902-1960.” Historic Context Statement and Evaluations, Forest Service Report No. WS-05-731. U.S. Forest Service, 2005. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/309">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/309</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Growing national forest Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon is part of the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest, a nationally protected area which has grown and changed many times over the years. Voiced by Lisa Thompson. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thompson, Lisa Subject The topic of the resource Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest--History Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast3AGrowingNationalForest Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Jan. 10, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-01-10 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c2bc879d31d909054da0909fac666fd0.mp3 f11ca2547bc83c84e9f284d11fe38961 https://highway89.org/files/original/c04b495f403d87adfcda6bcbb5de4ca5.pdf b1d280c0cf16d53ff3274533349f23a2 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Temple Sawmill In Spring 1877, Brigham Young, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, decided to build a temple in Cache Valley. The locals looked to the canyons to the east for the resources they needed to complete this huge task. By summer of the same year, Thomas X. Smith and C. O. Card located an appropriate site in Logan Canyon, a side-canyon then called Maughan's Fork. This was a very competitive time for lumber. Nearby, the Utah & Northern Railroad was being constructed, and Coe and Carter, a company that supplied railroad ties, had scouts looking to the mountains of northern Utah to supply the wood they would need. Upon receiving news of this, the locals took immediate action to secure the stands of trees they had chosen for the temple. Card sent out a team to begin construction of the new sawmill, and not a moment too soon. Historian Marion Everton wrote, “When the Coe and Carter outfit arrived some forty-eight hours later they found the first logs laid out for a big sawmill and men busily engaged in constructing shelters, but not too busy to tell visitors that they intended to continue the occupation of Maughan's Fork with the exclusion of any and all other outfits.” Work progressed quickly, and on November 4, 1877, the mill sawed its first board. In 1878, the side-canyon where the sawmill was located began to be called by an appropriate name: Temple Fork. The sawmill proved to be overly capable, producing more wood than was needed for the new temple. Contracts were made with the Utah & Northern to cut the extra wood into railroad ties, and, ironically, the project that once rivaled the temple became a project that helped fund its construction. The sawmill operated for 9 years, producing more than 2.5 million board-feet of lumber, 21,000 railroad ties, and many other wood products. It was closed down in 1884 and put up for sale, but there were no buyers. In 1886, the sawmill met its end when it mysteriously burned down. Two sets of men's footprints in the snow led to and from the site, which led people to suspect arson. However, no clues indicating who set the fire, or why, were ever found. Sources: Simmonds, A. J. In God’s Lap: Cache Valley history as told in the newspaper columns of A. J. Simmonds, A Herald Journal Book. Herald Journal, 2004. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/312">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/312</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temple Sawmill Description An account of the resource The sawmill that provided lumber for Cache Valley's LDS temple survived fierce competition, had a productive life, and then met its mysterious end. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Temple Fork Sawmill (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History--19th century Sawmills--Utah--Logan Canyon--History--19th century Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Temple Fork (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1870-1879 1880-1889 19th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast9TempleSawmill Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Feb. 22, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-02-22 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/28db32603f74fe3f64a180c65e9afe82.mp3 79ff7b971119867e17d94a811073ac32 https://highway89.org/files/original/3ad72a68f36b762f56531e20e2fe307b.pdf d966d624a31661e7647142b50a2eb382 PDF Text Text Stokes Nature Center History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series Establishing a Forest Reserve Logan Canyon is one of the most scenic areas of the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest. It offers an abundance of recreational opportunities, including skiing, hiking, kayaking, and camping. However, it was not always viewed as a recreational resource. During the late 19th century, huge timber harvests and overgrazing led to the deterioration of Logan Canyon. Irrigation and drinking water in Cache Valley became so polluted that residents debated whether to petition President Theodore Roosevelt to intervene to preserve Logan Canyon and its river. At the urging of several concerned citizens, the Cache County Commission called for a public meeting to discuss the issue. On February 15, 1902, citizens from throughout the county gathered and after much debate, voted almost unanimously in favor of petitioning the president. President Roosevelt sent a grazing expert named Albert F. Potter to survey the canyon. Potter estimated that around 150,000 sheep grazed in the Utah portion of the Bear River Mountains in 1901. He concluded that the canyon had indeed been overgrazed and the trees over-harvested. So in May 1903, President Roosevelt signed a proclamation establishing the Logan Forest Reserve. The designation covered 107,540 acres in and around Logan Canyon. During his visit to Salt Lake City in spring of 1903, Roosevelt made a formal address to the citizens of Utah. He said “do not let the mountain forests be devastated by the men who overgraze them, destroy them for the sake of three years' use and then go somewhere else, and leave so much diminished the heritage of those who remain permanently on the land.” The General Land Office appointed John Fell Squires, a 56-year-old barber from Logan, to serve as Forest Supervisor. James Leatham, a farmer and school teacher from Wellsville, became the first ranger. These two men comprised the entire forest management team for the new reserve. They fought the occasional forest fire and introduced a permit system for grazing. When the system was first introduced, Squires and Leatham issued 17 permits for a total of 33,950 sheep. This is less than a quarter of the number of sheep that grazed there in 1901. Logan Canyon slowly returned to a state of ecological health. Today, the canyon continues to be used and managed for multiple purposes, including recreation, power production, and forest products. As stated by Gifford Pinchot, the first Chief of the Forest Service, National Forests should “provide the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people in the long run.” Sources: U.S. Forest Service Website: http://www.fs.fed.us. Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008. Johnson, Michael W. “Whiskey or Water: A Brief History of the Cache National Forest.” Utah Historical Quarterly. 73.4 (Fall 2005). � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/315">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/315</a> Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-05-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Establishing a Forest Reserve Description An account of the resource Disgusted with the deterioration of Logan Canyon, Logan's citizens came together and a Forest Reserve was born. Voiced by Lisa Thompson. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History &amp Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stokes Nature Center Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thompson, Lisa Subject The topic of the resource Logan Forest Reserve (Utah)--History Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest--History Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. podcasts Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1880-1889 19th century 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Podcast2EstablishingAForestReserve Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Jan. 3, 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2011-01-03 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/20ed8043a21f1ca4f2fb1f80780ee0b1.pdf 9a3ab79b19297e3ed816b1e1e6f27e2b PDF Text Text About this collection: By Thad Box Logan Canyon runs east from the lush Cache Valley, which supported Shoshone families for hundreds of years. Beavers raised their broods in the streams and marshes. The first Europeans, mountain men and fur traders, gave rivers and canyons French names. Mormon pioneers established farms and towns in the valley, cut mountain forests for lumber and railroad ties, developed dairies and beef herds in the canyon. Landless, migratory sheepmen brought flocks from afar. By the late 1800s, the land in canyons and mountains was barren. Sheep herds could be counted from Logan by the clouds of dust they raised. Logan River and its tributaries were polluted by silt and debris. Utah Agricultural College was established in 1888 as Utah's land grant school. The Cache National Forest was created in 1902 at the request of local citizens who feared mudslides from denuded lands. These local citizens wanted the landscape rehabilitated. For the next 100 years scientists, engineers and land managers conducted research, applied what was learned and rebuilt the abused land. In so doing, hundreds of scientists, scholars, land managers and local citizens helped reclaim the areas in and around Logan Canyon into a special place of beauty. They gradually rebuilt its productivity. Hundreds of thousands of people come through the canyon each year. The canyon has become more than a beautiful mountain canyon; it is a part of people's lives and an icon of their culture. Some of the earliest work at Utah Agricultural College and the Utah Agricultural Experiment Station was stabilizing land to prevent landslides and improving overgrazed and overcut mountains. Curricula were developed in the emerging fields of forestry, ecology, range management, watershed management and environmental engineering. Managers were trained in Utah, but worked worldwide. Academic units in the College of Natural Resources and the water program developed reputations for land care. Their research was applied all over the world. In an effort to document these efforts, Special Collections and Archives in the Merrill-Cazier Library have the personal and professional papers of many of the scientists and land managers who helped rebuild Logan Canyon. More are being added. These collections form a valuable reference for anyone interested in land management and policy. These include papers from pioneer academics such as Laurence Stoddart and Arthur Smith, forest ecologist Lincoln Ellison and forest manager William Hurst. Beginning in 2008, Utah State University’s Special Collections & Archives, the Mountain West Center for Regional Studies and the College of Natural Resources Department of Environment and Society collaborated to collect the oral histories of key land use managers and users. Trained interviewers from The Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project gathered oral histories of people who have worked in or enjoyed the Canyon during the last century. In these interviews, available in audio and transcript form, people talk about what Logan Canyon meant to them. The stories of ranchers, recreationists, scientists, activists, scholars, foresters and sheepherders add cultural depth to the work of scientists, engineers and academics. This growing collection of oral histories and personal papers from those who have worked in Logan Canyon is fast becoming a major resource for others interested in rehabilitation, land management and policy. These oral recollections form a basis for understanding policy in one area. Principles from them can be applied to broader land areas. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/318">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/318</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource About this collection Description An account of the resource One page essay discussing the importance of Logan Canyon to area residents through its many uses and the benefits of collecting oral histories, photographs, and other historic materials that document those interactions. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Box, Thadis W. Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah)--History Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Land use--Law and legislation--Utah--Logan Canyon Range Management--Utah--Logan Canyon--Research Reclamation of land--Utah--Logan Canyon--Research Utah Agricultural College--History Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Essays Color photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache Valley (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ThadBoxEssay Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-07-03 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/993bcca0830449a0c737649a3f49ab5b.tiff e60067b8b7feb22d15c0651e10a088a2 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/319">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/319</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Modified by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Canyon National Scenic Byway - U.S. Hwy. 89 Description An account of the resource Modified map of U.S. Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, Utah, from Logan, Utah, to Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho. Taken from Cache Valley Visitors Bureau's pamphlet entitled "Guide to Logan Canyon : national scenic byway." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cache Valley Visitors Bureau Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah)--Maps United States Highway 89--Maps Scenic byways--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maps Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Tourist maps Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2010-2019 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Cache Valley Visitors Bureau, (435) 755-1890 or 1-800-882-4433 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LoganCanyonMap Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2011 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-07-03 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0057aec5e49ff98be54dc955f758ee12.mp3 475bd1becfcac6cbe06837883a6c651a https://highway89.org/files/original/2ff5831c9365bee55920e58d6c6717b0.pdf 03f6ac5e6ec24f8075f3f1f3008b96e4 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: John K. Hansen Place of Interview: Garden City, UT Date of Interview: 12 March 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Tape Recorder, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Randy Williams, 6 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah on his families’ cow and sheep operation, including yearly cycle of ranching: haying, feeding cattle and sheep, moving animals, protecting lambs from predators; his earliest memories of Logan Canyon; three years in the South Pacific during World War II; 18 years in highway construction with WW Clyde and Company in Springville, Utah; returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JH = John Hansen (Interviewee) NH = Noreen Hansen (Interviewee’s wife) BH = Bonnie Hansen (Interviewee’s daughter) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 3: A] BM: I’m going to watch the tape every now and then. This is Barbara Middleton and we are here in Garden City. And this is tape 1, side A. And we are here in the home of John -- Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  1   �JH: BM: John K. Hansen. John K. Hansen. And we are just getting started on the first interview with John. So I am going to have him start off with talking about when and where he was born and a little bit of his background. John. JH: Okay. I was born right here in Garden City, about a mile west of Garden City in my grandfather’s home. The old home still stands there. That was August the 16th, 1924. As I say, that home still stands there. As you go up the highway toward Logan from the last of the service stations, as you begin to climb the hill it’s on your left down off the grade. You can still see that white home down there, it’s still there. BM: So this is Highway 89? JH: Yeah, uh-huh. BM: Up the canyon, okay. JH: Yeah. And I still have a cousin and his wife living there. My grandparents moved out and moved over to Logan at the outbreak of World War II. And they owned a sheep ranch there. They had three sons that worked on that ranch and they all had different things to do. After I grew up enough to be of much help to them I used to help with the haying and with one thing or another. Most of my life was spent right here where we’re sitting except for I spent nearly three years in the South Pacific during World War II. That was from one end of the Pacific to the other, with a few stops in between. Then I spent 18 years in highway construction with WW Clyde and Company over down in Springville, Utah. Then I came back here when my brother had passed away; my dad had been gone for several years and had this ranch here. When my brother passed away he was running the ranch for mother. So I had to come back and I had to quit construction and come back here to help her out. And I’ve been here ever since. I don’t know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing! [Laughing] JH: Today, with the way things are why there just isn’t much in farming and ranching. There isn’t anything here in Garden City anymore. There is so much development; there isn’t what you could call a stable farm or ranch here that would be in full production, like there used to be. BM: So let’s talk a little bit about that, in terms of you started out with sheep ranching and haying and of course have seen a lot of change. Would you go back and talk a little bit about the early years of that sheep ranching and what the haying was like? JH: Yeah. BM: And how old were you at that time? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  2   �JH: Well, when I got old enough to be much help in the hay fields – the hay at that time was all put by a horse plow, with horse drawn mow machines and hay rakes and everything else. They just started using overshot stackers. Well, that was quite a job to work on the pull-up with a team of horses. BM: That’s where the horses --? JH: Yeah, the horses pulled it up on what they call an “overshot stacker” and I had the job of driving the team to put the hay on the stack. BM: So it was a team of two horses that pulled out? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. A regular team. BM: Okay. JH: And then I had the job also of raking up the scatters which was a job for me because you didn’t trip the hay rig with your foot like you did later on, you did that with a lever. And sometimes in heavy hay that lever would just about yank you right off of the hay rig. [Laughing] JH: And I wasn’t very big anyhow, so [laughing]. But that was my job to start out with. BM: You know, I have seen that. And that’s a pretty quick operation. JH: It is. BM: You had to be fast. JH: You have to know what you’re doing and if you’re on that pull-up on the stacker that reaches the top, you can tip the stacker right over on top of that hay stacker over on top of them stacking hay, if you’re not careful. But they usually had it chained down with stakes driven in the ground to keep that from happening. But you had to hit that hard enough, let your team to hit that hard enough up at the very top so that hay would shoot off, and then you would back your team up just a little bit and let that momentum carry the stacker head back. BM: And how high did you build these hay stacks? JH: They were up about, some of them 18-20 feet. BM: So this hay was stored out in these big piles, and just left open to the rain and such? JH: No, no. We stacked all of our hay right here – we had a big field out here in the south of town where we had our wild meadow hay. And all the hay that was in here we stacked Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  3   �right here behind the barn. Generally we would have about four stacks of hay – real good, big stacks of hay when we’re done. And then it would be fenced in. Out in the meadow we did the same thing. We had stockyards built out there, because if you didn’t you always fed your livestock out where the hay was, so you had to fence those yards in or you wouldn’t have any hay left! BM: [Laughing] So you had these stacks at two different places? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Out here, when are you going out and feeding your animals? Is it once a day? JH: Ordinarily we always fed our cattle and sheep twice a day, both of them. BM: And how do you get out there? JH: In the wintertime with a hay rack and a team and sleighs, and you went out and opened the gate and drove in beside your haystack and pitched a load on and hauled it out in the field and strung it off to the animals. Whatever you were feeding: sheep or cattle; you never fed the two of them together. BM: Hmm. And why not? Why won’t you feed them both together? JH: Because the cattle chase the sheep off. BM: Oh, okay. JH: They would eat – they were just too rough on the sheep. And by the time in the wintertime, why your ewes would be getting heavy with lamb, and it was just too dangerous. So you fed them separate. BM: Um-hmm. So you have them in pastures, fenced in different pastures – JH: Um-hmm, yeah. BM: And you have to get the sleighs into both of these pastures – JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: To come and feed them. Were the animals waiting for you? JH: You bet, standing there at the gate [laughing]. And one thing that I haven’t saw in this valley for years – all while I was growing up as you remember – well our winters, we had snow over here that you couldn’t see the fences. BM: Oh, wow! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  4   �JH: You couldn’t see the fences. A lot of times we would just drive our teams and sleighs right over the fences and go right out to the stockyard. And I don’t know why, but the stock just stayed there – you would have thought they would have followed the sleigh roads back. BM: Right. JH: But they didn’t. They stayed pretty – that’s why we fed them twice a day (that’s one reason why). The other reason why, my dad always had a lot of consideration for his animals and it fell off on me too. You know, in bitter cold weather an animal needs to have some feed for it in the mornings – just like you want to have suppertime – BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay, so did they. And they did better and it didn’t take as much hay either. You would think so, but it didn’t. It didn’t take all that much hay extra. In the springtime then, your animals are ready to go out on the range when it comes time to go and if feed was a little short (which it generally was), why then they could get by a whole lot better until the feed began to come up better so they could get a mouthful, you know? BM: Um-hmm. JH: We always came in with a top weight on our lambs and our calves. And your animals do so much better and they didn’t resent you and you could work them a whole lot better, which just made the work so much easier for the persons that are working them. In the past I have worked for other cattlemen where they fed their cows whether they need it or not. Come calving time you had a mighty tough time with the calving process. The poor old cows had an awful time. And you would pull more calves than you could shake a stick at. BM: Hmm. JH: And the same way with the sheep. In other words, a weak animal is nothing to have. So we always got by that way and did just fine. And that’s what we did when I took this place over, come back to it. We didn’t have the sheep – my dad sold the sheep when the War came on. BM: Um-hmm. Now before you go into that – you just went through almost a whole year of your cattle-sheep cycle. Let’s break that down a little bit, because there are some interesting things there. To me, as far as having them contained and then you’re getting them out onto what I assume was the Cache National Forest? JH: Well, we could always go on the forest on the first day of July. And then on the tenth day of September, your time was up and you came off the forest. And then you had to have a spring and fall range to go with that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  5   �BM: Now, did the cattle go one place and the sheep go another? JH: Yeah. Well, pretty much so, pretty much so. In the earlier years, back in the Depression years when things were really tough, why they had the sheep and the cattle pretty much together. They just put them out – with the sheep, they were herded. If you didn’t, you would wreck that grazing land (wherever it was – on the forest or your own), you would wreck that grazing land right quick. BM: Um-hmm. And is that because of them eating down close to the ground? JH: Yeah, um-hmm, yeah. BM: Okay. JH: So that’s one thing I would like to stress if it’s your dealing you say with people who hear about these things and without a doubt you too yourself have heard about the old sheep and cattle wars where the cattlemen wanted to run all of the sheep out of the country, and vice versa. And they couldn’t get along. Well my dad never did put his herd out in the morning in the same place they grazed yesterday. BM: Okay. JH: And he would go back over that and he would evaluate what those sheep took yesterday because different feed, and the sheep will get on a barren hillside with nothing but white gravel on that thing, and feed for hours at a time! And you’d wonder, “What in the world are they eating rocks for?” So you ride your horse over there and sit there and watch for an hour what they’re doing. And then you’re going to get off the horse and walk over there and move that sheep out of the road – our sheep are just about as gentle as they could be – and here is a rock about that big around that was sticking up and all around it was gray moss. That’s what they were eating! A cow would never eat that, so the sheep man he always got blamed for dropping out the forest. And some of them did, don’t get me wrong. Because there were some men who overgrazed in other words, and that’s one thing I never saw my dad do or my grandfather. BM: Um-hmm. So your grandfather and your dad both started that business and you were the third then, in your family that continued that? Third generation? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. I didn’t do sheep. Like I say, when World War II came along, Dad sold the sheep because he figured my older brother would be going into the service right quick. I was a junior in high school, at that particular time, and he didn’t figure that he could get along with me, with the sheep. And him trying to be down here and get the irrigating done and everything else that goes with a ranch, you know. BM: So then he became just a cattleman? JH: So he took the money and went and bought cows instead. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  6   �BM: Um-hmm. JH: And he bought himself one heck of a job! [Laughing] Because the cattle that he bought were wild, dirty stinkers! BM: Really? JH: Yes, they were! I’ll tell you what! BM: Where did you go to buy cattle at this time? I mean are you talking about buying cattle in the valley? JH: Yeah. BM: So there are other people that are selling off their herd? JH: Yeah, well the cattle he bought was right down there in the same town – BM: Ovid. Okay, Ovid, Idaho. JH: And the man he bought those cows from – his last name was Olsen. They were the wildest bunch of miserable animals you’ve ever seen! BM: So how did you get them here? How did you bring them from Ovid? JH: They trucked them up here. BM: Okay. JH: Yeah, they trucked them. NH: And the kids down there were the same! [Laughing] BM: So when you got the cattle on the land here, how were they wild? JH: Oh, you just have to be around a sheep outfit, but never had any cattle. You’ve got sheep curls about that high, and they was nothing to a cow! They would just go through her like a Sherman tank! [Laughing] JH: Down here on this lake shore below us, clear along here for oh, half a mile – just a solid line of sheep sheds where they lambed all the sheeps. Now my dad’s brother had a herd, and they ran them together – so that’s where they would lamb them out down here in the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  7   �early spring. They would start lambing right around the 15th of April and that’s where they would do it. BM: Was there a certain weather condition that they needed? JH: The warmer, the better; the warmer the better. And, the drier the better. BM: Is it warm here at that time of year. JH: It was pretty warm. NH: It was! [Laughing] BM: What’s the temperature April 15th? What do you remember? JH: Back then? It was kicking right around 40 degrees. BM: And snow? Did you have snow? JH: Yeah, there would still be a little snow, not much snow. There would still be a lot of ice on the lake. BM: Okay. JH: That was one of my jobs when we had the sheep. I’d come home from school and hook up a team of horses and go around – this is all slough down here clear over to my uncle’s place. I had to go around to his gate and back around with my team and hook them on to a sled. We had four open top, 50 gallon barrels on there and there is a good spring right below the sheds. I’d go down there with a bucket – 5 gallon bucket – and fill those barrels full. And I’d come up and go through those sheep sheds and water the sheep at night. BM: Oh! So they were in and they were waiting for you to shear them? JH: Well, they generally didn’t shear those sheep until, oh around the 10th of June – it was just too cold. BM: Oh, okay. JH: My dad and his brothers – spring and fall range was over on this side – you’ve seen where that little segment of “R” on top of the hill? BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  8   �JH: Well, their spring and fall ranges were immediately below that. BM: Okay. JH: There were about four sections of land in there that the two of them had together and they ran on, that they homesteaded. So that’s where they take them over after they got through lambing out, why they would put the two herds together and then they would trail them over. It would take them about three days to get them over there with all them young lambs in the bunch. BM: And what are they trailing them through? What’s the landscape like? Is it dry at that time? JH: Yeah. It’s pretty dry. You would be getting spring rain storms, you know, off and on quite a bit. Most generally it was pretty nice weather. BM: Okay. And then, is that where you sheared them then? JH: Yeah, we sheared them over there. BM: Okay. So if your job was shearing, were you actually – JH: My job was right here with my mother. We had five or six milk cows. BM: Ahh. JH: And I had to go them night and morning and help her milk them milk cows. NH: [??] [Laughing] BM: What time did you get up for that job? JH: Oh, we’d get up right around five o’clock on average. From the time I’d get those milk cows milked and get them took out to pasture, why it was getting along towards eight o’clock. And then when I come home at night, I had to go get them again and help her milk them again! [Laughing] BM: That’s a busy job. That’s another regular kind of thing you have to do every day. JH: Yeah. It’s an every day process – there’s just no getting away from it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  9   �BM: So then when it was shearing time, in between the milking of the cows were you down there helping them with the sheep shearing? JH: Nope, no. That was all done across the lake over there on the east mountains. I just had to stay here and help her and help her plant the gardens and stuff like that. BM: Sure because the weather was planting time. NH: Did you help lamb the lambs, when they were down -- ? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: So tell us about that – so that’s right across the street here. JH: Yeah. BM: Okay, tell us about the lambing. JH: Oh, that was a terrible job! [Laughing] That was a clock around job. You always had a night shift to go on. They would hire a couple of guys and most generally, why they were my dad and my uncle’s nephews that just lived around the corner there and they was both married. They’d come over and one of them would come to work just as it was beginning to get dark at night. And they would always pull a sheep camp down there so they’d have a place to stay in all the weather. And then the other one would come over and relieve him right shortly after midnight. And he would go until like six o’clock in the morning – most generally five or four o’clock my dad was down there. And they’d hire those guys to help them out that way. And there was a job of having to feed those sheep down there off the hay rack. Those big corrals we had down there – we had to board up the side of the wagons clear to the ground so the ewes and the lambs couldn’t get under and get run over. And I fell under that job more times than not! [Laughing] That was first thing in the morning, but when I come home from school – lo and behold them milk cows were still staring me in the face! BM: So when are lambs typically born? Are they often night, or? JH: Anytime, any day. You could always tell when the pressure dropped you would get a bunch of lambs. If the pressure dropped, why you’d have lambs all over. That was another little job I had to do. They had a sheep boat it was just on a pair of skids (like that water skid I was telling you about), only they had a little box on that thing. I would go out through the corrals and generally either dad or my cousin or my uncle would go along with me and we would gather up the lambs and ewes and put them in that thing. We had a lot of space where we could put the ewes and the lambs in a pen to theirselves. And then you had to constantly shift them and make room for the next go around. It was quite a deal. And then if you weren’t watching real close, you could get those lambs mixed up and then boy, there was all heck to pay! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  10   �[Laughing] BM: A lamb can lose it’s mom? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Huh. How do they know their mother? JH: They have their own smell, their own scent. Each one has their own scent. And that’s how the mothers can tell their own lambs apart. BM: So when the mother gets sheared two months after the lamb was born, the lamb still knows mom because she still smells the same even though she might look a lot different. JH: Um-hmm, yep. Oh yeah! That don’t bother them lambs. They know where that bottle of milk’s at! [Laughing] BM: Don’t lambs have twins? JH: Yes. BM: And triplets sometimes? JH: Twins and triplets and sometimes four lambs – I’ve seen them have four lambs. But I hated to see triplets, I just hated to see triplets. Because mama most generally didn’t have the milk for them. BM: Oh! JH: So you would have to go through the herd and find a mama that only had one lamb. And then the trick was to get mama to take that lamb. And until you could get her milk going through that lamb, she wouldn’t have nothing to do with them. BM: So how do you do that? JH: You just tip the ewe up on her hind end and you suckle that lamb until he filled up and then you put them back in the pen together. And if she got mean with him, why you’d have to put him in a little side pen next to her. And then you always let that little lamb get just a little on the hungry side – there was tricks just like there is in all trades [laughing] – you just had to be able to figure out, you know, what was going on and understand your animals. So you would let him get good and hungry and then you would take her lamb (because she had one lamb), you would take her lamb and put him over in that pen with the bum lamb. Then when you come back to feed those lambs, then odd lamb (to her), he’s hungry enough to hang up the bottle and so is her lamb hungry enough. So then you had to get a hold of that ewe and make her behave herself, and put a lamb on each side. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  11   �And every time she tried to reach around her to bump that spare lamb, why you just popped her on the nose and let her behave herself. BM: So how many like, triplets did you have in the season? That’s a lot of work! JH: That is a lot of work! Thank heaven there wasn’t too many of them! [Laughing] [End Tape 1: A; Begin Tape 1: B] BM: Tape 1, side 2. And we’re continuing with the sheep and the bum lamb and getting it to take to a different mother. JH: Um-hmm, yeah. Okay, so you made her behave herself and made her keep standing up so both lambs (on each side) could suck. A mother will always turn around and stick her nose right back under that lamb’s tail. That’s how she identifies that lamb, is by her milk going through that lamb. So that’s why then once you can get her to behave herself and get enough of her milk going through the bum lamb. And then if she don’t want to stick her nose around there and recognize him, you bend it around her and make her do it. You could save little lambs that way. BM: How do you bend a sheep around? I mean aren’t these sheep pretty big? JH: Yeah. The average of my dad’s sheep – they were big old Columbia ewes – and they weighed around 150 pounds. And I’ll tell you what, you’ve got a job to do. BM: And how old were you at the time? JH: Oh, I guess I was about 14 when I would help them down there. Then I would go through their corrals with them and help them that way when I could. In later years here I had a little herd of my own here on the place. I would lamb them right here and sheared them out right here. So I knew all about how to handle them. BM: Now one other thing, before you go on to that: you were mentioning that sometimes the mother didn’t take to the – what did you call it? Bum lamb. JH: Yeah. BM: So there were times when you had to supplement and feed yourself. JH: Yeah. BM: Could you tell us a little bit about that? JH: Well, if you was worth a hoot, you could make her take that lamb. BM: So it was pretty successful? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  12   �JH: Yeah, it worked fine, it worked real good. We made that ewe stay in that pen until she took that lamb, until she let that lamb suck. And then we would put her out in the bigger pen with a few more ewes and their lambs and watch her, until you knew that she had the lamb, she recognized the lamb and she would feed the lamb. And she would keep track of it. But it was all the other lambs that came along like that – whether it was triplets and you didn’t have any place to put two of them – why you bottle fed them. We’d keep them around, we’d bottle feed those little beggars all summer. BM: Is this cow milk your? JH: Just cow milk, yep. Just cow milk. [Laughing] NH: It wasn’t that much of a job! [Laughing] JH: The only problem I had, you would have a bum lamb and a bottle – those little beggars, they liked to get a hold of that nipple on the end and they would just start chewing on that and sucking on that, pretty soon they would back up and pop the nipple off. The milk would go out! Then they’d run around in middle of the corral and spit the nipple out and you would have to go find it and wash it off! It was a job, you know. It could try your patience sometimes, but we always had some real good bum lambs to sell when the sheep would come off the forest. Ordinarily my dad’s lambs weighed around, oh, around 90-95 pounds. Which is a real good lamb. BM: And how old would that lamb be? JH: That would be an April born lamb. BM: Okay. So when were the sheep and the lambs turned out on to the National Forest? When did you turn them out for grazing? JH: That’s on the first day of July of the year. BM: Okay, so that’s July. So they are on the ground, they’re being born in April, so April, May, June – they’re only like three months old. JH: Yep. BM: So how big is this lamb at this time? Is this like a loaf of bread? Is it -- ? JH: The newborn lamb? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Some of those little fellars would weigh, oh, I guess about six or eight pounds. I hated to see that – I liked to see a smaller lamb more because it will get up and it will go. If Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  13   �they’re any heavier than that in the cold weather, the little beggars will lay right there and freeze to death if you ain’t right there. BM: Hmm. JH: And then they get lazy and they don’t want to follow mama. If you’re moving them, like on a range, why they won’t get up and follow mama, when she leaves them – goes and begins to feed why they lay right there and then that ewe will have to go clear back there and get that confounded lamb. A lot of time she can’t find it because the little cuss won’t answer her. If the herder don’t know where that’s happened – if you ain’t watching your herd in other words – why, that can happen you lose a lot of lambs. If it doesn’t happen that way then the coyote gets them or the cat. BM: So that would have been one of the predators that – JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: Mountain lions or coyotes. JH: Or coyotes, yup. BM: Were there pretty healthy populations of those? JH: Oh, there was a lot of coyotes! There was a lot of coyotes. A lot of times we’d have to get up in the night and go run them off. Over on the east side of the lake when they first got up there in the spring – take the old lanterns and hang lanterns all around the bedding ground. You never let them sheep just sleep anywhere, you put them on the bed ground so you could watch them. BM: Huh! And you put lanterns around the edge? JH: Um-hmm. Put lanterns all around your bed ground and that would help keep the coyotes out of them. But a lot of times you had to go out there and run the dang things off. BM: So you’re on horseback running – JH: No. No, you’re on foot at night. BM: Oh. JH: You just go out there and when it’s dark you can’t see nothing anyhow – you just go out there and run them off the best you can. BM: Um-hmm. Did you yell? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  14   �JH: Yeah. You just had to holler and be careful how you done it because if you got to yelling, why the next thing you know your whole herd got off the bed ground and gone out in the sagebrush somewhere! BM: Holy smokes! So how many of you are doing this? How many of you are watching the bedding grounds as well as running off – how many people are managing? One. JH: Um-hmm. Just the herder. BM: And that’s you? JH: Well, sometimes it was. After we got out of school in the middle of June, why there was no school so I would go out and let my dad come home and do some things that he needed to do. Over there, you know, there are some nasty looking rattlesnakes, and out in the dark with them sheep. You could get pretty snaky! [Laughing] BH: So Dad, was that the common way most sheep herders did? Was just one sheep herder? JH: Yeah. Well, not too much. Pert near all the sheep men around here -- and there was a lot of them in Rich County. Over here right across from us and clear up into Idaho, there was eight herds of sheep over there. BM: Clear up would be like – JH: Up there at Mud Lake – east of Mud Lake. BM: Gotcha. JH: There was eight herds of sheep over there, besides what was over here. Nine out of ten of them had a Mexican herder. A big part of them had a Mexican herder. BM: Hmm. And why was that? JH: Didn’t have to pay them so much. [Laughing] BM: Cheap labor. JH: Yep, cheaper labor. NH: And the [inaudible] didn’t make them herd sheep. BM: Oh, okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  15   �JH: But you know, where the bulk of those old Mexican herders, they were the nicest people you’d ever want to be around. For example, if we picked up some of their stray sheep, we’d come out of our herd and then we’d take them over (with their brand on them, you know, we knew which herd they went to) so quick as we got a chance we would take them over there to that herd. And then you could sit there and visit with – if you could understand that Mexican. Most of them, they could talk broken English pretty fair, you know. He’d ask you if you’d want, “How about a cup of coffee before you go back?” or something like that, and you could talk about things. Most of the herds that was right here came from the Nebeker Ranch right over here. We was right by them. So if they had any problem at all over there – and all those herders rode mules – the orneriest bunch of contemptible animals you’ve ever seen in your life! [Laughing] NH: Now he could have said something worse! [Laughing] BM: Oh, tell me about these mules! JH: Yep, they were good. They were good mountain animals to ride if you could stay on them! Yeah. You had to ride them with a breast strap on your saddle and a britchen on the back end to keep the saddle from sliding over his ears. BM: Right! JH: And when you’re going up hill the breast strap kept the saddle from coming back and sliding off the tail end! But anyway, if they happen to get or something, why they would come over to our camp and we didn’t have much of a problem to get down here, the Nebeker Ranch, and let them know about it. BM: Now why mules? Did the Mexicans that worked the sheep – did they bring mules with them, or is that something that was locally used? JH: Nope. Nope, that was just what was locally used on some sheep outfits. BM: And why not horses? JH: Well, mule don’t take as much feed and he’s got a lot of good stamina; and I guess mostly that was probably the reason why most of those sheep men furnished mules survived. BH: Dad, were horses more expensive than mules? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  16   �JH: You know, they were to go buy a good horse. NH: Well a mule would eat what a horse wouldn’t eat too, wouldn’t they? JH: Yeah. BM: So they eat less and they eat a different kind of feed? JH: Well, they eat the same thing as far as that goes. I’ve seen them go strip the bark off cedar trees and eat the bark off of cedar trees. BM: Ooh. Well it also sounds like you’re in some pretty rough country, if you need to both tie your saddle off on the tail and with a breast collar – you’re going up and down some rugged hills! JH: You do! You do over there! Back here on the forest it’s even steeper than that! We had to use breast straps and troopers on all of our back horses because you couldn’t keep a pack on there right. One thing about that job, if you didn’t know how to throw a square cinch tie, you was in trouble! You could never keep a pack on a pack saddle. So when I was with my dad, why I learned how to tie that knot. [Laughing] You use what they call “swing cinches” to work on that knot. I’d crawl up on top of that load and roll the square end so he could hook the other end of rope through it; and when you pulled it down to a cinch, it would just pull a square knot just about that big. And that pack didn’t move. BM: Hmm. Could you still tie that knot today? JH: I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing] NH: I think he could. JH: I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing] BM: So when you were tying this up – it sounds like you’re going out to stay for awhile with supplies for a sheep camp? JH: Yeah. Well every time you moved camp – and you had to move, ordinarily we would move camp up here about, oh nearly every other day. Like I say, the easier you took it on your feed allotment up there, the better feed you had next year. And your water supplies, your spring supplies – it is amazing at how much it helped those spring supplies! BM: What do you mean by that? Tell me more about how the grazing helps the spring. JH: Well, you know you’ve seen where the grass is burned in the summer months, burned right to the ground – where it’s never had anything. It hasn’t had enough water all Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  17   �summer long. Well that’s what it looks like if you over-graze it. Well there is nothing there to hold the summer rains that comes; to revitalize that feed and keep your water supply up. So over-grazing hurts that range more than anybody could ever think. Anybody that does that is doing nothing but hurting their own self and their animals. BM: Um-hmm. And you probably saw some of that? JH: Oh, I’ve seen too much of it. BM: So what makes that change? Were you and your dad and your grandfather – was the permit system already in place then in the forest? JH: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh I don’t think I was much more than, what – maybe five years old – when my dad – well my grandfather came into this country with the first herd of sheep that came into Bear Lake Valley. BM: When was that? JH: I can’t tell you the year – he was a very young man himself, and he herded sheep for a big sheep company out west of Ogden. [Thinking out loud] What in the heck is that little town out west of Ogden? BM: Were you around Lucerne? In that area? JH: No, this is right straight west of Ogden – NH: It’s not Roy – JH: No, no. BM: But you’re west of town and east of the lake then? JH: Oh yeah, yeah. I’m just telling you where he grew up. He lived in that town. No. NH: No, Milton’s over in Cache Valley. JH: No. Well anyway, that’s where he was from. That’s where he was born and raised there. When he was around, oh about 16 years old (oh, I guess he was 15 years old), he went to work for one of those big sheep that’s out west of Ogden – Plain City! BM: Oh, okay: Plain City. JH: Plain City. That’s where he was from, Plain City. And then these big sheep outfits was out toward the north side of Salt Lake. And they brought the first herd of sheep over in this valley and he came over as a camp jack. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  18   �BM: Hmm. What is a camp jack? NH: Cook! [Laughing] JH: No, he was just an all-around – NH: Handyman. JH: Handyman, yeah and a cook. NH: Except for your dad, he had to do his own! [Laughing] JH: My dad, later on after he had gotten married, he bought some sheep and he came over and homesteaded that ranch up here. And part of that ranch is up there where you are coming down the canyon, you know and making loops around? BM: Um-hmm. JH: And all the buildings back there? Well, that belonged to him and it went over north of there, oh about a mile and a half. And it come this way almost over above the middle hill over here. He homesteaded and bought; that’s where his spring and fall range is that. And his summer range was all over Swan Creek Peak up here. BM: So tell me some of the landscape features. Before we turned the tape on you mentioned some hollows and some areas. Take us like from the south end to the north end of where he worked his sheep. JH: Well, our grandpa had his sheep over here on Swan Creek. His summer range was all over Swan Creek; it was a sweet setup. You didn’t have to trail anywhere to get on the horse. And it didn’t have very far to come off the horse. And most generally it had to be off the Cache National by the 10th of September, they had to come off. Most of the guys had to come off anyway to cut their lambs out and ship their lambs. BM: And who checked to make sure that you were off? JH: Hmm. NH: Forest Rangers. JH: Forest Rangers. I don’t know, I don’t really remember having them come and check us off. I know right up here west of the golf course, over the top of the hill, they had what they called the “Counting Trail” where you took your sheep on, on the first day of July. And the ranger sits there on his horse and he counted your sheep on. And if you had more in that herd than you was supposed to have, you had a problem on your hands trying to keep that many sheep out of your herd and then finding a way to get them down home! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  19   �So you was pretty darn careful about going on that forest with the same amount of sheep that your permit called for. BM: Does your permit change from year to year, as far as the number you can take? JH: Nope. Ours didn’t, some of them did. BM: And that would depend upon what? JH: That depended on that Forest Ranger. He’d come, oh generally he’d get around our herd about, oh right around the first of September (some time in there) and he’d ride that whole summer range: Dad’s whole allotment. And check the whole thing over. And that was one thing my dad was always proud about, he had the best allotment of the whole bunch because he didn’t overgraze. BM: So he sounds like he was very responsible with it. JH: He was. You never saw a more honest man in your life. I can blow about him! [Laughing] I don’t think he would steal a six penny nail from anybody. But he knew livestock, he knew what they were about and he knew what he had to do to keep them to the point where they was going to make him some money. BM: And it sounds also like taking care of the landscape for next year’s grazing and – JH: Exactly, um-hmm. That’s right. Your watersheds – that was another thing that the old ranger we had up here. I could remember him, he rode and old white horse. And he would come over to our camp every Tuesday when he was up in there. Our range was clear up – you know where the Beaver Mountain ski lift is? Okay, the actual Beaver Mountain is not there. The actual Beaver Mountain at that time (and it still is) right across Beaver to the north east. That big old mountain back in there – BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay. Our allotment went right up to the flats, the Beaver Flats. You go up through that narrow canyon there, right up to the Beaver Flats. And there was a saw mill up there a little ways and dad’s allotment ended right by that saw mill. BM: Do you remember the name of the saw mill? JH: I’m trying to remember. The man that owned that saw mill lived down there in St. Charles. Hmm. NH: [Inaudible] [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  20   �JH: Yeah, oh I’ll tell you my memory is just – NH: Oh about the saw mill and about St. Charles. Was it an Allred? JH: No. He had that mill up on the Beaver Flat. BM: Well, maybe we’ll think of it as we’re chatting. NH: I’ll go get the phonebook and go through it – that’s what I’ve done before! [Laughing] BM: That’s a pretty big allotment. JH: It is. It wasn’t very wide. It came down as you come up above the Beaver turnoff and you start making them turns, you know that kid has always had saddle horses in there. BM: Hmm, um-hmm. JH: And that’s one guy I’d like to take a boot to! [Laughing] BM: Because? JH: He treats his horses like, I’d better not say it. NH: He does not feed them. He does not take care of them. JH: He stands those horses in the hot, boiling sun with a saddle on them, waiting for somebody to come along and rent them. What in the world is wrong with that pine grove behind them – taking them over there and tying them in the shade so they got a place at least they’re not burning up! BH: Sometimes when we’re down that way, you know, I have to hang on to him so then there’s no stopping and going out there and turning them horses loose! [Laughing] JH: Well, I love a horse. You can’t beat a good horse and the only way you have a good horse is to treat that horse like you would treat your own self. You know? I’ve always had a horse that will work for me and the danged horse, just like a buddy. BM: So you had horses too? On the ranch? JH: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  21   �BM: So you didn’t have mules? JH: No. We didn’t have any mules, thank heaven! [Laughing] BM: So the horses then you used when you went out with the sheep in the summer time? You would pack horses? JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. Do you remember any of the names of your horses? JH: Oh yeah! We had Old Lass and I had a little mare that I’d bought from an old fellar out here (he had sheep and this was years and years later). The horses he used to put on his sheep camp and I herded sheep for him a couple of years out here anyway, out on his spring and fall range up on the top of south of Lake Town. BM: Okay. JH: And he had some horses that were so old, they would start to stumble with you and before they’d quit stumbling they’d be 100 feet down the road with you. They were just wore out. So his son-in-law got a chance to buy some young mares that came off the Carter desert out here in Wyoming. BM: The Carter desert? JH: The Carter desert. BM: So is that around Kemmerer? JH: It’s east of Kemmerer and a little bit north, kind of over towards Piney area. BM: Um-hmm. JH: That’s where them horses come from. So the son-in-law, when we came off the summer range that fall (and I wound up herding his sheep that time out here on the spring and fall range). So Paul rounded up all but that one horse that I was riding – a big old black horse (he could stumble over his own shadow) and he rounded up those old sheep camp horses and he traded them to this guy that had bought a bunch of those little Morgan mares. [End Tape 1: B; Begin Tape 2: A] BM: Tape 2, John Hansen and Side A. Go ahead with the Morgan thoroughbred story. JH: [Laughing] Well, anyway, Paul he traded those old, wore out sheep camp horses. They were in good shape, they were fat and so they brought a lot of money. They was buying Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  22   �them for fox feed. And so Paul, he just made a trade with them for some of those little thoroughbred Morgan mares. BM: Okay. Hang on – for fox feed, who is raising foxes? In the Valley? JH: Yeah. There was (I can’t remember his first name), but he was a stock from down here at Fish Haven. He used to have foxes. But I think he’d gone out of business by then. But most of the foxes came from over east of Preston, Idaho. BM: Okay. And they’re raising foxes for what particular industry? JH: Fur; for the fur industry. BM: Fur? So coats and other -- ? JH: Yeah, just for their coats, just for their fur. So when the boss seen them little mares, he really blew up. He cussed that son-in-law up one side and down the other one and he said, “Nothing but a bunch of junk!” He says, “Ain’t worth nothin’!” He says, “they’re not even worth having on the ranch! Just load ‘em up and get ‘em out of here!” he says. And he says, “We’ll go somewhere and find some horses!” Paul told him, he said, “Well, we can go find you some horses Tom, but you’re going to pay around $1,000 a piece for them horses if you expect your riders to get anything done on this ranch.” “Well what did you sell them others for?” “Because,” he said, “they had run out from under us too many times. They get right down on their knees,” he said, “and plow their nose in the dirt. You’re going to kill some of your men one of these days!” So they argued and argued and argued and no sir, Tom, he wanted them horses, them little mares. (What was it I think – there was five of them, five of them.) So the boss, he was going on like that and I had my eye on one of them and I just thought, “Well, you know, I’ll betcha I could get that mare for 50 bucks.” So while he was going on, “It ain’t worth nothin’, it ain’t worth nothin’.” When he stopped, I just, “Tom, I’ll just give you 50 bucks for that little mare right there, if you will sell her to me right now.” “Get her outta here! You’re on!” [Laughing] JH: I hadn’t even talked to her! We were a little short on cash anyhow! BH: Was this Snooks? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  23   �JH: Yeah. NH: Yeah, this is Snooks. BH: This is Snooks that nobody could ride except when Dad came home, she would saddle up to Dad. I remember her. JH: So anyway, I rode her out that winter. There was never a time she ever bucked with me. I just made good friends with her and once in a while I’d sneak her a little sugar [laughing], and a little extra oats or something, you know. And we got along just wonderful. And then when I quit herding sheep and went back to punching cows, that thing turned into the best cow horse we ever had on this place. BM: But you were the only one that could ride her? JH: Yeah. NH: Yes. BH: She ran away with me on her. BM: Oh! BH: I was coming down with Uncle Stan [he] was bringing the cows down, and I was up there with him and I begged him to get on her. And he thought, well if he had a hold of her bridle maybe I could. So he gave in and let me get on top of her, and she got away from him and ran away with me. BM: Oh my! How old were you Bonnie? BH: Oh, about nine I think, right around there. NH: I think, yeah. BH: And we were headed for the highway. BM: Oh! BH: And there was a fence at the bottom of the pasture there. And I could see that fence coming – I don’t know what happened, but I fell off of it, right in the middle of a cow pie! [Laughing] JH: Soft landing! [Laughing] Soft landing! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  24   �BH: And Uncle Stan said, “Don’t you tell your mother that I let you get on that horse!” [Laughing] JH: He didn’t like to ride her very good because she got out from under him a time or two. She’d turn with a cow. I just talked to that little mare and she just picked it up as a natural, you know. She’d lay that shoulder right into a cow and that cow got ornery and tried to go around her, why she’d just – and that cow would just over. And the cow would generally go on her knees, you know. But when that cow got up that little sorrow mare had her right on the loop of the tail that sticks up – POP! She could take the hair right off, and that cow would bellar, man! She’d get back in the herd and she’d stay here! [Laughing] JH: But what I’m going to tell you about, you’re not going to believe, I know! That’s the only cow horse I rode from Goodwin’s. The only cow horse that I ever seen that you could get a cow in a fence, going down that fence and trying to get by you, and you’d reach over and grab that cow by the nose and make her back up, you know. She’d get over there in the fence. When that cow tried to get between her and that fence again, she planted all fours and run them back, sure as the cow on your right. You just take your rope, once that brass horn [clapping hands] banged her on the nose and she behaved herself. That cockeyed horse was running backwards almost as fast as she could front ways! [laughing] The first time she done that with Stan, he wasn’t looking for it (and I’d warned him about her; I said, “when your tailing cows with her, she will run backwards if that goes to go by you and she don’t want it to, she’ll plant all fours and run backwards with him and she’ll leave you sittin’ right there on her nose!”) [Laughing] And she did, a time or two! BM: So how old, when you picked this mare out and said, “That’s the one I want.” How old was she when you got her? JH: How old was she? Three. BM: Okay. And what made you choose her, when you looked at her? JH: Just her confirmation, her build, her legs and up here between her ears is where I always looked. If there’s a bump up there, get rid of them; but if there’s a good roll, a good roll is a smart horse. I’m going to check my horses when I go back home! If any of them have a bump, they’re in trouble! BM: [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  25   �JH: If they’ve got a big bump, they can be ornery son of a guns. BM: All be darned. JH: Anyway, I’ve ridden some nasty cow horses that would get dried out from under you. BM: So you had to replace Snooks when? How long did you have her? JH: I had that little mare for, oh gee, I guess 10 years or more. NH: A good ten years. BM: And you eventually retired her because? JH: Yeah, I had to. I had her over on the east side of the lake, rounding up one fall. I was trying to get them through a fence. I had quite a herd of cows and I was all alone and trying to move them over into another pasture where the last ten days that I was going to be over there with them for the season. And they was giving me a bad time, that little mare she just worked so hard. Finally when I stopped to let them get through the gate, why as usual, some ornery old heifers broadside the gateway and nothing could go through. And that’s when my brother come along, about that time, him and a couple of his buddies. (No, that wasn’t my brother that was Randall.) NH: Yeah, that was Randall our oldest son. JH: It was late in the afternoon, well quite late because he’d come from college over here and he brought his girlfriend with him. They all jumped out of the car and run over there hooting and hollering and got the cows a going. So when they got through the gate I got off to go shut the gate of course and I looked around – I could always drop the reins and that mare would stay there when I came back if it was an hour – went over and shut the gate, come back and she was just a quivering. So that was the last work she ever done for me. When I put her in the pasture here at the place, and she died here. BM: Ahh. JH: So. BM: Oh, I bet that was a hard loss. NH: Oh it was a sad day. JH: It was. NH: That was a sad, sad day. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  26   �BM: So she was about 18-19 – no, how old was she? She worked 10 or more years, so she was probably about 15. JH: Um-hmm. Yeah, she would have been right around 15 I guess when she died. BM: Those are probably big hooves to fill. JH: No. BM: No? JH: Nope. That’s another reason why I chose her. It didn’t cost the cock-eye much to shoe her; she was easy to shoe. I never had a problem putting a shoe on that mare right from day one. She always wore a double odd shoe. It didn’t take much to put shoes on her and she could get through brush for the bigger horses, but take half a day. But you had to be a rider to ride her in tall sagebrush, because she would go over the tallest of it! She’d just – like that. BM: Oh, just jump it. JH: Yeah, she’d jump it. BM: Holy cow. And you were hanging on! JH: I’ll say I was hanging on! [Laughing] BM: So who did you replace her with? JH: Randall, our oldest son, he bought a horse from (now I can’t remember his name, over there, he would live in North Logan) – no, no. He would be in North Logan now, but he had those American saddle horses. BM: Oh, okay. JH: He had this three year old – a real pretty, sorrow horse, with three white socks and a blaze face – BM: Another mare? JH: No. It was a gelding. And he bought that horse and – NH: [Inaudible] JH: Yeah, Loy Robinson was his name. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  27   �[Inaudible chattering in the background] JH: Anyway, he bought that horse from him and he was just halter-broke. And he brought him over here and we saddled him up and warmed him up walking him around the corral. And I got on my horse and just snubbed for him a little out here in the field; got him over there behind where Randall’s house is now and I just reached over and unsnapped the halter rope and turned him loose. [Laughing and chattering] JH: Well that horse just stopped, you know. So I just turned around and headed back down to the corral. And the horse he just (we named him Mac, well I guess I did), and the horse, he just followed us for a little ways. And then pretty soon that horse hit a running walk and he never stopped until he got to the barn door. And that’s the way that horse was for all the time we had him here on the ranch. You could get him up in the morning, jump him out of the truck over there when you was going to round up or move to another pasture, to get him out of there (just about the time the sun was coming up and by about six o’clock), that night you could aim him back to the truck and he would hit that running walk and that sucker was there until he got to the truck. He just had that much guts to him. He was just an all around good horse. He was fast, you could rope off of him. Randall never really rode him a heck of a lot! NH: He wasn’t here! JH: Well, that’s right, he was. He was in college most of the time. NH: College and on a mission, and – JH: Yeah, and then he went on a mission, didn’t he? Yeah. NH: Yeah. He got one year of college and then he went on his mission. BM: But this is a horse that other people could ride, unlike Snooks who -- ? JH: Well, I wouldn’t have put a kid on him. I wouldn’t have put somebody on him that, you know, wasn’t very used to riding for the simple reason if you got him around a cow, you better be ready to ride because he’s watching. If you’re just riding by a cow, if he figured that thing was going to turn and go somewhere, he wanted to go right now. You know, a typical cow horse, cutting horse. I only rode one other horse that was better than he was for cutting cows and that was Ross Jackson over here at Randolph one spring (the spring I got out of the Army). He had this American saddle mare – beautiful thing. Solid black, four white socks and a white blazed face and she had kind of a light mane and tail. He gave me her to ride in my stream and he says, “That’s been my personal horse, you take care of her.” And he says, “She’ll get your work done, but boy you better be ready to ride!” Well, he wasn’t Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  28   �kidding! That horse knew more in a half-book second about what a cow was going to do than I would know in all the year. First thing we did, went down to the field. That was in the last part of April, when it was nice and slick down there with slush on the ground. We gathered up a bunch of cows with little calves and riding around them, got them all bunched, ready to go up to the corral so we can put them in the corral above the road, so we could brand the calves tomorrow. Well first thing that happened: here goes a little calf, gone across the field – bam! That mare had that calf so cock-eyed quick! She caught that calf and spun and me just still hanging out there! I had to grab hot air! [Laughing] I wasn’t looking for it. Well, for one thing it was so slick, you know, I was afraid she was going to go out from under me. But he had some pretty good shoes on. They used horse shoes in those days, not these little pressed plates that will go out from under you. And so they had toe carts and heel caulks for them, and that’s the only thing that saved Dave! That cock-eyed mare had that calf back to mama right fast. And me hanging for dear life just trying to be there too! When I learned how to ride her, I knew what she was, you know. So I was watching her and we got along like two peas in a pod. We went out that spring and rode over to – well that was on the edge of the Carter desert where you had about 200 head of cows with unbranded calves that he’d just pulled off of a feedlot over there somewhere and set them up. And we had to go get them the next day and trail them clear back through Kemmerer then pert near to Randolph over here in the Crawford Mountains. And that was the nastiest spring I’ve ever seen. The first day, everything was peachy; it was nice and warm coming across that alkaline desert. I didn’t know where we was going, and the other rider that was with me – and to top it all off, to make it even nastier, we had 100 head of yearlings in there and they wanted to go home. And the cows was taking it pretty easy and it was hot. So he was riding the point and I was back on bringing up the tail end. And you couldn’t see your nose in front of your face for the alkaline dust flying. The next day the boss went and borrowed a sheep camp from a sheep man over there to put behind his truck to follow us through and then he had to take all of them mountain roads around to meet us here and there. In the middle of that night, the wind come up and it got cold! Man, it did get cold! And the whole herd got up and monkeying around so we had to get up and keep them together. And by about four o’clock that morning, here come the sleet. And man! I had a real good pair of bull hide chaps and I had it treated – what the old Mexican sheep herders told me to treat them new chaps with. They were roughouts. “Don’t put oil on them, don’t put oil on them – make too cold; when come time for cold weather, no bed, no bed. You get fur hung up under horse belly and get throwed and hurt.” Well what are you going to treat it with? “Go find yourself a big pine tree, with lots of pine gum. Take big ball of pine gum,” then he says, “you go put that in a pot and then get some minks foot oil and you put with pine gum; heat it good and mix it up real good. Go buy yourself a new wash rag if you have to and use that wash rag to put that on your chaps. Lay them out there on something flat and work that in.” He says, “It’d take you three or four days.” And I said, “Well, pine gum, that will make those chaps so stiff I can’t get into them at Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  29   �all!” “No rain go through, no rain go through and it will do cold, it will do cold,” he says. “You fix them chaps like I tell you and you be mighty glad you did.” Well that was one time I was mighty glad I did. The chaps, they stayed just right – they were fairly stiff you know -- just to hold their shape. And I could sit on a horse and I was covered down to my in steps on my boots and the water run off them and never got anywhere near damp inside at all. When we road for four days and four nights on that trail in the most miserable, cold storm you ever wanted; calves going in every direction on the tail end and me trying to hold them. And every time Casey come back to try to help me, the yearlings would take off and run. So we’d have to bunch the works together again and lose time a doing it. BM: And how many are you moving at this time? JH: We had, I think there was 215 head of cows with new calves. Well the calves was probably about like a month old calf. And then there was 100 head of those miserable, lousy yearling heifers. [Indistinguishable] [Laughing] JH: We battled and fought that through and out in that country, in that desert, there is washes to beat the band; and I wish I could remember the name of them. Because when you picked up some of these books and read them – he’ll tell you about some of them places you’ve been. There was two washes: one was a big, deep, wide wash and another one was smaller. And I read his books where it’s mentioned both of those washes right out here in Wyoming, by name. When we’d cross those things with that herd, that was all alkali country and just as slick as it could be. BM: Um-hmm. JH: And you’d get down in those cock-eyed things and you’d have a time of getting out. Then when I’d come along on the tail end, invariably I’d have about 30 to 40 head of them cock-eyed little calves on the tail-end, and ma up there bellering on the other side, and them calves trying to run back. And that mare just worked herself silly to keep them calves from getting away. If you ever wanted to see a smart animal – brother, there’s a smart animal: a horse. Well, we finally got through those washes and up the other side and finally, oh I guess about 4 o’clock in the afternoon why, it quit sleeting. It kind of shot off, you know, and then oh man, did it cold. And then Keith come riding back to me and he said, “We haven’t got very much farther to go John,” he says, “we only got about ten miles so we’re going to be coming up on Old Lady Wheeler’s ranch. Now that’s a big ranch, they’ve got Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  30   �great big cattle corrals in front of that big, old house. The house, it’s a two-story house, it’s got a veranda clear around the top story and around the bottom.” And he says, “When we get there,” he says, “we gotta be careful.” [Remembering] Zeeler! Zeeler. Old Lady Zeeler! That was her name! [Laughing] That’s what he called her anyhow! Old Lady Zeeler. “Now,” he says, “you could tell her for a mile off, you can see her for a mile off; she sat big. And she’ll have a great, big, old, black coat on from the top of her head, right down dragging on the ground.” And he said, “If she comes out here,” he says, “you better come help me stop them. Because,” he says, “I don’t think the boss is going to get over there in time to go talk to her. She’ll take a shot at you!” Oh my Lord! I said, “Well where is Frank?” And he said, “He’s going around there right now, he ought to be around there pretty quick now.” He says, “He’ll be there by the time we get there, I’m sure. Let’s just hope that he gets to talk to her and get permission to get these cock-eyed cows in that corral tonight so we don’t have to night ride.” Well, we kept a going and we kept a going, and I didn’t think we was ever going to get there. I could see that one black spot, see that big, old ranch house sitting over there. And there was a little grove of willows in a little creek just between us and that ranch house and the willows weren’t very tall, but I could see the top of that house and there was that black spot. And I watched that black spot get bigger and bigger [laughing]. And I just could see old Keith – now he was holding the leaders up all he could, but he just about had them all. One time we got almost over there and then she stood up on the porch and you know what she had in her hand? A double-barrel shotgun. She pulled out from under that big, old, black coat and she aimed that right -- , “Let’s pull it up, let’s pull it up.” And boy, everything come to a halt. And Keith, he was sitting on his horse and wondering whether he was going to get shot or not, and so was I! And here come the boss – he finally made it there! Drove up into the yard, and then she knew who he was. So he talked to her and asked her, he said, “We’ve just had an awful time in this storm. I wonder if we could put these cows in corral tonight?” He says, “These guys, they’s give out, so’s their horses. They’re wet and cold. If we could just put them cows in the corral tonight,” he says, “we’ll be out of here at daylight in the morning.” “Well…I recon you can,” she says, “if you know how to open that gate. Is there any one of the three of you that knows how to open the gate?” Oh and Frank says, “You bet! I’ll get it open.” [Laughing] That old corral was made out of poles – I guess it had been there forever, you know. And that gate was, oh I guess almost 20 feet wide! A pole gate. Old Frank, you’d just about have to have a saddle horse and lariat rope and pull that gate around to get in, you know. And old Frank, he just worked on that until he was almost black in the face and I hollered out, “For Lord’s sake! Go over and help him get that gate open! These calves are going to get away from me!” So he did; he went over. He just dropped the rope on the end of the gate and helped Frank pull that gate open. And then we got them in and put them in that corral that night. You know what happened? He pulled that cheap cap right down there in front of that old girl’s – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  31   �[End Tape 2: A; begin Tape 2: B] BM: Side 2. And we’re continuing with the Zeeler Ranch story. BH: The sheep wagon? JH: Those two guys, they just jumped in that truck and they said, “We’ll see you in the morning John.” And left me there. BH: With Lady Zeeler? JH: Yeah! So I had to get old Keith’s saddle horse and then she was still standing up there with that shotgun tucked under her arm, you know, watching the whole thing. BH: How old were you, Dad? JH: I don’t know, how old was I? BH: Were you married? JH: No! That was before we got married. Just about – we got married on the 16th day of May of – NH: I think that was – around the last part of April – JH: It was, it was. BM: This is after you got home from the war? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Okay. JH: That was the only job I could find. You couldn’t even buy a job when I got home. And me and my buddy, we had quite a stinker pulled on us out there. But that’s not the story! Anyway – BM: So wait, she’s got the shotgun, she still has it in hand and you’re alone on the ranch with her. JH: Yeah, that’s right. So I looked up at her and I went over and got that horse. She had a heck of a nice barn that hadn’t caved in yet. She had all kinds of sheds you know, all her sheds were all there, her colt sheds but they’d all caved in. And I didn’t know whether I’d dare go put the horses in the barn or not. Finally she said, “Well, are you going to go get the horse and put him up or just stand there?” “Yes ma’am.” [Laughing] So I went and Keith’s horse and took him over to the barn and she says, “I guess you can tell a barn Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  32   �from a lean-to?” “Yes ma’am.” “Now put them in there, make sure you give them some hay. There’s some hay in there. Them horses have worked all day and they look like it.” Anyway, I took care of the horses and come back over the camp and she said, “You got any dry wood at that camp?” I said, “I hope so.” And she said, “Enough to keep you warm tonight?” “Well, I think so.” “Alright,” she says, “alright, I guess you better get at it.” And she turned around and went in the house. And I went over and climbed in the tent and built a fire and got myself some supper and climbed in bed and had one hell of a bad sleep all night, worried about her and that double-barreled shotgun. [Laughing] And those two jerks never got back over there until 7 o’clock the next morning and we had a 20 mile trail to go yet! Thank heaven it had quit storming. BM: But the cow, you were able to put in a fenced enclosure so you don’t have to worry about them? JH: Yep, didn’t have to worry about them. Oh boy, I’ll tell you what! That was a life saver for me. When those guys got there and then we had that 20 mile trail to go and that was back toward that highway that comes from Evanston over to Kemmerer. BM: Okay. JH: Not in the middle of it, we would come up from the Zeeler Ranch and hit that highway. And then once we hit the highway, we had about 10 miles to go towards Kemmerer. And then there was a big cattle outfit just west of the highway there, and that’s where we went with them. And we took them up there and that man was a good friend of Frank’s, so he let us put in to pasture there for the rest of the day. And then he said, “You guys get out of here and go home. I’ll have my riders bring them out of the pasture,” he says, “if they need to come out. But I think they’re alright right there until tomorrow morning. Now Frank,” he says, “where is your branding irons and your tools and stuff?” Frank said, “Right here in the truck.” He said, “Well leave them, my boys ain’t got a thing to do tomorrow and we can take care of them cows tomorrow.” Then he said, “You guys can come back and help us push them up on the range,” he said, “the day after tomorrow and settle them down and distribute them.” BM: So they brand them and then they’re going to disperse them up here on the Cache? JH: No. Over in the Crawford mountains. BM: Oh, Crawfords. JH: Uh-huh. So that’s what we did. And the next day, why we was back over there. No! Next day they branded them and then it was the day after that we went over. And he had, oh, he had eight cowboys on his ranch. He had a big old ranch there – he had eight cowboys, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  33   �and then there was just me and Keith and Frank joined them. We put the whole mass – I’ll bet we, well we had over 2,000 head of cattle. BM: Oh! JH: In that herd. And we pushed them up on that summer range of theirs over in the Crawfords. But then we had to pair up a lot of them to get different bunches. Then we just took them out and put them in different places over in there, in different pastures. Took all day. BM: And so you moved them and then you got them up and then had a day and then you moved them up into the Crawford Mountains. And then did his cowboys pretty much stay with them and work with them for the summer? JH: Well, a lot of the fellows over here in Randolph and Woodruff run cattle up in there and they all work together. So come roundup time, they all rounded at the same time. And I guess, according to that young son of ours (our youngest son, Mill), I guess come roundup time they had gala outfit going up there: work all day, then drink all night and play cards. [Laughing] NH: They still do! JH: Yeah, they still do. Our son-in-law runs cattle out there, and he’s a bishop – I don’t think he joined in with the boozing though. I don’t think he ever did much of that anyway! BM: Now was that the same time period – because you talked about getting the animals off the forest up here by September 10th. So were the Crawfords about the same time? JH: Yeah, um-hmm, ordinarily. BM: Okay. JH: There was a reason for that, it was a good one. Because you know, ordinarily your deer hunt came along in October, about the middle of October. And so to bring them off of there, by that time your feed is pretty well gone anyway. I’ve seen my dad come off the forest ten days quicker than that, just to make sure that he wasn’t going to have to go back over something they’d been over. They would come off about that time to get out of the way, so they would have time to go back up and ride for strays. He always got a good two weeks up here to get – and then you’d never get them all out. The snow has to drive them out. That was one of the reasons why we had to come off on the tenth day of September. Because they’d figured you’d had enough time to graze those animals, then you had time to go back up and make sure and ride for strays, because you’re always short. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  34   �BM: Now you mentioned going in that the foresters were there checking your numbers for your permit. JH: Yeah. BM: Were they also there when you came out? JH: There were times I ever saw when we came off that they counted us off. BM: Okay. JH: They never did count us off, no. I don’t know what they did with the other guys, the other herds of sheep; it was the same way with the cattle. No, they would count cattle, but ordinarily when I rode for this old fellow out here (I managed his ranch for a while) and he runs cows up here above the ridge. The forest ranger would come and tell you which gate to put them in on the forest reserve line fence. BM: Now which ridge is this that you’re talking about? JH: This is Long Ridge. BM: Long Ridge, okay. JH: Uh-huh; right above the Sweetwater Park. BM: Now, so the forester was there to direct you where they should go – which was the best pasture at that time? JH: They gave you a pasture to put them in. And that pasture was the one that you had for the summer. It was up to you to ride that pasture and make sure that your stock was there. You all worked together – you always had cattle get out and go on another guy’s pasture – so you worked together. And you’d go over and you’d pick up their strays in your pasture and take it back to them, and they’d bring theirs over to you. And they had a regular rider for the summer and he kind of watched out for that and helped you out, and then he did all the salting – they’d put all the salt out. BM: And how often was the salt put out? JH: Just whatever was needed. Now, that’s another thing that these people need to know. It’s crucial to a cattle operation – it’s not so bad for sheep because you carry your salt with you and put it in boxes for a night, you know. And then you’re not leaving a tromped down place. Well same way with those salt areas for cattle. That rider would go distribute so many blocks out in one pasture, because quite often he was always moving from one pasture to a new pasture. So he’d go and put that salt out – so many blocks that he figured that those cows was going to take for so many days. Then when it comes time to change that pasture, he’d go check on those salt grounds and if there was any salt left, he moved Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  35   �it. And moved it ahead to where he was going. And if you had a real good rider, why you know, you didn’t have to worry about it. You knew your cows had the salt in front of them that was needed, and there wasn’t excess stuff to bring excess cattle in at one time. BM: Now he’s carrying this on a pack horse? JH: Yeah. BM: And these are blocks? Like 50 pound blocks? JH: Um-hmm, yep. Regular, 50 pound block of salt. BM: Okay. JH: And if a certain cattle man wanted his cattle to have access to iodized block, he got the iodized block, and that particular cattleman furnished the block. BM: Oh, okay. So would the cattleman drop off the blocks and then the cowboy would come and pick them up and take them? JH: Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. He’d distribute that right up here – I’m talking about, have you ever been up Temple Fork? BM: Yes. JH: Okay. Right up on the flat, right up on the flat they had a pretty good corral back there; made of poles tight enough so the livestock couldn’t get in, not even the elk or the deer. BM: Um-hmm. JH: The association would deliver the salt and whatever else was needed, to that point. And then that summer that range rider would go there to pick up what he needed. BM: Okay. JH: And if he had to go like south of there, you get over to (what’s it called?), Mud Lake? Or towards the Hardware Ranch? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Why, he’d have to bring his Jeep up (most generally they had the same rider there for years), knew what he was doing, he had a Jeep; he’d go load up the salt that he wanted to put on those other salt grounds and leave it there and then he’d come and get his horse and his pack horse and go distribute from there. Because it was too far to carry that salt on a horse’s back. Salts mean to blocks of salt to carry. And I’ve seen it wear a hole right in a horse’s back. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  36   �BM: Ooh. JH: So that’s the way they did things up there and it worked out good. This guy I worked with – it was KB Hansen that bought this old ranch out here. And I worked for him for four years. And he ran cattle down – and this is where I got to know a lot of the Cache Valley boys over there. I rode with them for three seasons up in there; all up in Temple Fork area and all through Tony Grove and all that area. Better bunch of guys I’ve never worked with. BM: So when you were up in those areas, what other kind of people did you see up in Logan Canyon and Temple Fork and Tony Grove? JH: At that time, I rarely saw anybody. Of course I wasn’t up there all of the time. I did go up and help that rider occasionally when he’d need some help; I’d throw my horse in the truck and go up and help him. If he had something that had got away and he needs some help, why I’d go up and help him and generally there would be a rider or two coming from Logan up. BM: A rider that was working cattle or sheep? JH: Yeah. One was salt man, one was a cattle owner. And we would get together and we would go get them put back together again for him. They were just a nice bunch of guys to work with. There was only one or two. One of those guys, you probably remember. Had all that trouble there west of Logan out there by the ball goal where that crossed the slough and got hit and killed that woman? BM: Yes! That was just in the last few years. JH: Yeah, about what? Two, three years ago? BM: Right, right. JH: I rolled with him all one fall – we just happened to get on the same crew at round-up time. And I’d never met a nicer guy than him! My gosh, you know! And when I read what was going on, what happened to him in the paper, I couldn’t believe it. And I got to thinking (because I didn’t know him very much) about that big, wide ball pit I guess you could say down that side of that road. And I’d see them cattle over in there – knew where they was – I even hauled a load of these cattle down at round-up time I guess it was last fall that I was up there and rode with them. He had one load too many that he could load and they would have had to stay there in the corral up there all night and half the next day. So I told him, I said, “Well, I’ve only got five head up here.” And, I said “Criminy I can load them myself when I come back. I’ll just throw them in the truck and follow you down there and we’ll have them down there.” Well, you’d have thought I’d done him the biggest favor in the world! I don’t know that I did. I just came back and loaded our two or three in the truck, it was a simple matter. We had a real good corral there. Of course I was all alone, and then I had to lock up everything before I left! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  37   �BM: Where was this corral again? JH: What is it they call it? It’s down towards the bottom of Tony there. You know where the new highway ended off? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay. Then you go down the road there about, oh what? About three quarters of a mile. So on the right-hand side of the road, and I want to call it Bunchgrass, but the Bunchgrass pasture is back up toward the north – BM: So you’re not in Franklin Basin are you? JH: Nope, not quite. You know where Red Banks picnic ground is? BM: Oh sure! Sure. JH: Okay, well Bunchgrass is just south of that picnic ground, back up in the timber there. BM: Okay. JH: They’re quite a ways up there. It goes clear back up there almost to Tony Lake. BM: Hmm. JH: That Bunchgrass, sometimes you could hardly ride a horse through the cock-eyed stuff. Anyway, that’s where their corral was at. And I guess I haven’t seen it for years and years and years, but they still use it I know in the fall of the year. BM: Can I ask you a question about predators? When you were working with cattle and if there was a problem with predators and what they might have been? And did anybody help you with predator issues? JH: Not with cattle. We didn’t have any predator problems. In earlier years, before Dad got into range cows, when there was so many coyotes the cattlemen over there – where the highways hits just before you get to Bear River there’s Sage Creek Junction. BM: Yes. JH: Well okay. Some of those cattlemen there was having as much trouble with the coyotes and their newborn calves as we was having with the coyotes up there and the sheep. Oh man, there was coyotes anywhere you wanted to look. And the government, they had trappers out. There was two old men here that trapped coyotes for years; I can remember them both. They trapped coyotes, they’d shoot them, whatever it took. BM: Um-hmm. Did they do something with the skins? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  38   �JH: Yeah, yeah. They’d skin them out and they sold those coyote pelts – this was back pretty much in the days of the Depression when (just to give you an example), my mother used to give us kids one egg a piece when we went to school in the morning, once in a while. And the Hodge’s Cache Store was right across the road from where the church office still is. Well, she’d give us an egg a piece and we’d go in there and we could get a nickel’s worth of candy. BM: [Laughing] And trade for the egg? JH: Yeah, in place of the egg. So now, there’s what you were faced with here. Her [wife] and I, we lived through that. This is something else that these same people that you’re talking about, don’t know the first thing about. And you know, when I stop and think about it now, the people here worked together. All of them are farmers and they all had gardens. All the women, right down to some of the smallest little girls you’ve ever seen that couldn’t twist a lid on a bottle, knew how to bottle deer meat, or anything else. And they all worked, you know. I got one of them out here – that’s how she learned to bottle. She lived through it same time I did. If Mom and Dad didn’t teach that to them kids, you know (and I know they did). If those kids nowadays, that were kids then don’t teach that to their kids, they ought to have a hold of your head. Because at least you can live. We’ve got a real bad situation on our hands here. And you know and it’s going to get worse. Just as a little example, buying my groceries down here to Montpelier and in three weeks what I used to buy down there, the same articles that cost me $50 bucks, right on the scratch, yesterday cost me $71.63. That’s how much they jumped down there. Well, that’s where we’re going and you know, you talk about these people that need to know how to take care of your ranges and boy, I couldn’t agree with you more! And thank heaven we’ve got people like you who are willing to teach them. You know, if we were taught more about how we went through that in those days – my dad was one of the handiest men you ever saw (I know I’m bragging about him). BM: He was a good person though. JH: He could do just about anything. He built this home for us. He was a good carpenter; he was a good blacksmith shop; he could forge weld. He could build horseshoes from scratch – just whatever you wanted. He taught me and my brother everything that he could teach us. BM: And you’re probably very proud of what he could do too. JH: I’ll say. And he was awful particular about his work. That’s where we’re at today. We need more people to pass that lesson on to their children and their grandchildren. Now I’ve got granddaughters – two of the best articles I ever wanted to have canned: corn is one and deer meat the other. My mother used to cut the corn off the cob and I used to help her. And I right behind my house here that my grandmother used to use for the same purpose was a summer kitchen, with a big, old wood stove in it, you know. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  39   �BM: Um-hmm, sure. JH: And she did all of her canning out there. And Mother would take the sheets off of her bed and put on the top of that roof (it had a little gradual slope to it). And we cut the kernels of corn off of them cobs of corn and by the bucketful she would take it up there and spread it out. And then I had the job – BM: So she would dry it in the sun? JH: Yeah. Sun dried. And then I had the job of keeping the magpies off! [Laughing] JH: Oh man! BH: How did you do that? JH: Well, we had to pick of rocks out of the corn a time or two – [laughing] I used a flipper on them. I was a dead shot with a flipper, I’ll have to admit! [Laughing] She sun-dried that corn and then she put that corn in a bottle, screw the lid on tight and then come deer hunting time, why dad would always get a deer. And she took that meat and cut it up in little squares (about so square) – BM: Uh-huh. JH: And then she bottled. Well, you never had a better combination of something wonderful to eat – she took that corn and made gravy out of it and then she mixed that deer meat with it. And she would pull that deer meat apart with a fork. And oh, boy! You could just bust! BM: Oh, that sounds excellent. JH: It was really good you know. Those people in those days knew how to live. BM: They did; very talented. JH: You know what we got today – I know this is going to be a little bit off of what you were wanting, but I have to bring this to your attention. You know, I had a lady in here the other day; she’d bring us quilts for Noreen to hem. A real nice gal – she’s a little bit older than I am. I am coming 85 and I think Marie would be probably like about 87. (Whispering: One of the most staunchest democrats you’ve ever seen in your life.) And she sat here talking to Noreen. And she got to talking about what was going on here with President Obama. And I was just sitting here in the chair watching her. And finally I said to her, I said, “Well,” (she was talking about the fighting between the democrats and the republicans). I said, “Well you know Marie the best cock-eyed” [tape ends] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  40   �[End Tape 2: B; begin Tape 3: A] BM: Three, side one. Alright finish with the democrat. JH: She said, “What did you say?” I said, “Marie, the best thing that ever happened to this nation was World War II.” [She said] “I can’t understand how you can think that! Look at all the people and our boys from home that was killed and mangled in that war.” And I said, “Marie,” I said, “I was right with them.” “Well how do you figure that?” And I said, “You tell me this, Mrs. Democrat,” [laughing] I said, “When did you ever see the democrats and the republicans get along better than they did then?” NH: Oh, you said the wrong thing to him there! [Laughing] JH: And she thought and she thought and then she looked at me and she was waiting for me, I guess to say some more. I told her, I said, “You’ve never seen politics go out the window so fast in all your life. You’re going to have to admit it. Democrats worked with republicans and republicans worked with democrats because they didn’t have no choice in the matter! We was broke, just like we are now, and a whole cock-eyed world to fight this war in and how are you going to do it? Everybody pulled together. Everybody, because it was death staring them right in the face.” So I said, “And I hate to think that’s what’s going to happen here, but I’m just scared to death if they bring them kids out over there now those murderers are going to follow them right to our shores and we’re going to be worse off than we ever was!” That’s what’s scaring me. “And one of the biggest problems there,” I said, “now we have got a lot of people at the head of our government” (just like these young people that you was talking about), “that think they know, but they haven’t got the experience to handle. So the rest of us are going to have to get behind them and do something about it.” BM: Um-hmm. And they haven’t been destitute; they haven’t been challenged in that way. JH: Yeah. NH: We’re all going to have to get together and find a boat of some kind and put Obama on it and send it across the ocean – [Laughing] JH: And a few more people to go with him! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  41   �BM: Okay. Let’s stop there for – it smells like lunch to me. [Stop and start recording] BM: Okay we are continuing with our tape after lunch, here with John Hansen in Garden City. And we’re going to continue with some of his earliest memories of Logan Canyon. So, John. JH: I guess the earliest that I can ever remember of Logan Canyon was a mighty long time ago. I think I was probably right around six or seven years old. But the earliest thing I can remember about Logan Canyon, down the canyon very well, would have been right down at the bottom of the canyon where you come around that first sharp curve where the city water line used to come down and cross the road there. BM: So this is on the Logan side? JH: Yeah, uh-huh. They had just started to widen the road out and they had a steam shovel there working (and some other equipment). And I’ve been trying to remember the name of that company. They were a Logan company that was there. It wasn’t Johnsons, but it was another company from Logan. We’d been to Logan, been downtown and was coming home and we come around that curve and there was that steam shovel working there. And he was loading a truck. So we had to stop and wait for him to finish loading that truck so we could get by him. At that time, most of the rest of the road clear through the whole canyon was nothing much more than a wagon track, it was so narrow. Most places you had to pull over and stop and let the other guy go by you. And on the curves, the same way: you’d go around those curves awfully slow. I can remember that road up through there so well, and especially that particular time because that was the first time in my life I’d ever seen a steam shovel. I’d heard about them, you know, going to school and all that. BM: Wait a minute, before you go on. The road, the texture of the road at this time was dirt? JH: Yeah. BM: And one lane? JH: Well, you could call it about a lane and a half [laughing]. And it was all the way through right down to Garden City. So many places you just have to stop and move over and let the other guy go by you, or some places or a lot of places of course, why you could pass each other but you had to be awful cheerful about it. BM: How did you get through in the winter time? Wasn’t it muddy? JH: It was closed. That road was closed all winter. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  42   �BM: Oh, okay. JH: They never started keeping that road open (now don’t quote me on this, because I can’t remember for sure), but when they first started keeping that open I think it was right around 1938 when they first started to get the equipment to keep it open. For one thing, they needed those snow throwers real bad because the canyon would close so quick. They were in short demand and so that kind of hampered the opening of the road, you know, to keep it open. The first workers from Garden City that worked for the State of Utah on this side, kept that road open through the winter from Garden City, down to the Temple Fork (let’s see, it would’ve been down below Temple Fork by quite a little bit); right down where the new wide highway goes on down the – that’s where the guys from this side had to keep it open. Because the machinery on the other side – from there on down into Logan – had all of Logan and Logan area to do. The two men in Garden City was Ross Hodges and (oh, what the heck was his name?) and Lamont Schofield. They were the two first men to go to work for the State to keep that road going through the winter. And they would work all day until late at night and then they would hope that they could get back up to the road shed to get it open in the mornings. BM: So they stayed in the road shed at night? JH: No, they came home. BM: Oh, they did? JH: Um-hmm, yeah they came home. And then they found out that wasn’t going to work very good. So then they had to put on a second crew from Logan that came up. And then they’d change shifts. They had people working that road the clock around. They had people getting hung up in the drifts before these guys could get back the next morning. And a time or two they couldn’t even get in, they had to walk. BM: Where did they walk to? JH: Well, they could generally get up to where the overlook area is. They could get that far in that area with their cars, and then they had to walk from there, clear down to the road shed. In all that deep snow, that took a lot of time. So they put on two shifts. And that’s the way it’s been ever since and I think they have done an immaculate job on it all the time. I don’t know of anybody that’s ever had a lot of problems. You’re going to get snow blowing across that road and some of those cuts in no matter what you do. So I’m sure those fellows have had both hands busy to keep that road open, you know. I think that they did a good job. Of course they’ve had several different crews since that time. But to get back down to the canyon itself, why I can remember coming up through there in a car when I was of a young age, you know. Going through to Logan and back, or wherever. Especially after a rainstorm or in the fall of the year, the mud (because there was no surface on it, just a gravel road), you could get stuck pretty easy. But I can remember doing that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  43   �And in much later years, why I didn’t have all that much to do down in the canyon itself for a long time, until after we was married I guess. Our next door neighbor over here and I, we just love to fish. And we’d put our families together on a Saturday night or a Saturday morning and take our eats and stuff and go over there just above the Red Banks. You know where they built that new house crossed, on the west side of the highway? BM: Right. JH: Well there was a good little campground there and we had fixed up a place, dug a fire pit and rocked it all up right nice, and Noreen and our good neighbor over there, those two women would get together and Dad still had a couple of his Dutch ovens left. And I’d go get them and we’d go up there to fish. And we would fish right from, well from above there, quite a ways above there; almost up to the confluence of the Beaver and the Logan rivers. And we’d fish clear down below the Red Banks. And then we’d go back up there and then ordinarily we’d have all the fish we was entitled to. And then sometimes when things got crowded there, why, we went down there one time (he and I just went the two of us), that was on Saturday; I’d see that little creek coming in down there just above the Red Bank (which was White Pine and I think you mentioned that). BM: Um-hmm, um-hmm. JH: And I was standing there where that was flowing in to the river and all of a sudden I could see some pretty nice fish going up. About like that, just real nice pan size. And I got to wondering how far up there those little suckers would go. So I told Dave about it – he was on the other side of the creek. So he came across and we started up there (and this would have been about four o’clock in the afternoon I guess, when we started up White Pine); we was getting more fish than we had any right to have at all, so we was just throwing them back. And we got to wondering just how far up there it did go. Well we didn’t know it went all the way up to White Pine Lake. So by the time we got up there it was getting pretty close to dark and going up across that little sagebrush flat – just below – why, that channel was so deep. I guess it would have been about waist deep on me if I would have fell in it. And there was them cutthroats about like – you could dangle anything you wanted to put right down on their nose and they would just not pay any attention to that at all. I don’t think we caught one fish up there. [Laughing] The next time we went up, we went all the way up and the same thing happened, right at the same place. I don’t know where all them fish was getting all their feed from, but boy there was big, fat ones and you couldn’t get them to bite! No sir. So I tried the treble hook just to see if I could get one. And I finally did get one. And boy, it was a nice fish and just as fat as he could be. And that’s the only fish we ever got out of there! BM: The only fish, oh! And that was a cutthroat trout? JH: That was a cutthroat trout, yep. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  44   �BM: Okay. That’s a very special population up there. JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: Wow, those are beautiful fish. JH: But talk about beautiful country, boy we’ve got it in this state. Anywhere you want to go. And it just seems so nice to be able to get in a place like that, you know and enjoy yourself. BM: And so close to your home. JH: Yeah, right. Close to home. And then we got acquainted with quite a few of the boys that came from Logan to fish up there – from just anywhere in Cache Valley. A whole lot of the fishermen that we saw were Japanese people. Just a whole lot of them. BM: Hmm. Why was that? JH: Well, that fish and rice are the major food stuff that the Japanese people over there eat. Fish and rice. I guess you could smell a Japanese soldier a good 20 feet away from you. You could smell him. And I guess maybe that a lot of bearing on the case. Now rice in the Philippines is one of their major crops. And they harvest that rice – they thresh it, just like we did wheat here, same old thresher. And the Japanese they would take that away from those people. They grow that and they would wait for that rice to ripen to the point where it was ready to thresh. They even stacked it in round stacks like we used to do here. And pull those old separators up the side of them. Gosh they had those big, old rice patties just covered with them. And the Philippine people got very little of it. Now there’s one thing I would like to tell you about and I don’t know whether you’d like to include it in this. BM: Let’s look where we are here. Good to go. JH: What I saw over there – BM: Over there, you mean in your World War II – JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. JH: What I saw over there, it would break your heart. Did us. I got shot up a little bit and I was sent back to a hospital. The other major Philippine island is Lety. Our people had already cleared Lety Island. BM: Now how do you spell that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  45   �JH: L-E-T-Y (I think that’s it). I think it’s L-E-T-Y. BM: Okay. JH: And they had set up a real big area base hospital there. Well that’s where I wound up; they flew me clear down there – me and a plane load of other guys. We’re right on the south side of that – now this hospital is sitting right down on the beach. And there’s a big, high chain-linked fence. I bet that thing was a good 20 feet high. When we came in there in those ambulances and we got out, why that chain-link fence was about 50 feet away from the military hospital. And I’m bringing this to your attention so you can get an idea. Now there were MPs walking up and down that fence. And I was wondering, and I seen these signs and wanted to get out of the ambulance. I was close enough I could read one of those signs and it says, “Do not feed the prisoners. Do not feed the prisoners.” In big, bold, black letters. You couldn’t miss it. I went, “Prisoners? I didn’t know they would have a prison down here.” Now at that same time our boys had come into Manila. And what had happened, they had got into that big Japanese prison camp and they had freed all those people that are inside there. And 99% of them were women and children. And that was inside of that compound. And looking at what was over there would break your heart. That’s one thing I need to tell you is that the old American soldier has got a heart bigger than a lard bucket. And if anything is going to get to him it will be what is happening, especially to little children. There’s nothing but a bunch of skeletons walking around over there. You see every bone in their body. And had we fed them, had we gave them so much as chewing gum, it would have killed them on the spot. Because they had not been there, but just a matter of hours at that particular time (is the way they explained it to us). They made sure they we wasn’t going to be giving them anything because up in our battle zone when we’d run across them little kids, you know, we used to get those tropical candy Hershey bars (about that long and about so wide) and them little kids up there, they would come around and just, “Chocoletto-zho, chocoletto-zho.” And they were in our crations. So we’d give them a candy bar once in a while, you know. So that’s what I saw down there. I was down there for (what was it?), nearly three weeks before I could get this leg back under me. BM: Which leg was injured? JH: This one. BM: Okay, your left leg. JH: Uh-huh. Bullet went right down here and come out down here. My buddy stepped up behind me and took the sole off his boot, went through my leg and clipped the under sole off of his boot – he stepped that close to me. Wow. BM: Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  46   �JH: Then that was the only place in all my three years that I ever saw the LDS Church advertised. BM: Hmm. JH: That would be quite a little story, so you probably wouldn’t want to hear that. I get to church, but I had to wait a [inaudible] to do it. [Laughing] JH: And I’d only been there for four days, something like that I guess, when that happened. BM: Wow. I can’t imagine coming from a place like here and being raised on a farm, and your family around you and the kinds of things you saw here – even though it was during the Depression – and then having that kind of experience. JH: It was horrible. It was one of the most horrible things. But that was only half of it. I saw some of the worst of it, right up there in the Nagoya, Japan. BM: Mm-hmm. JH: After we had gotten settled, we were using Japanese quarters and everything, and kitchens – their buildings. And so you’d go to chow and go through the chow line with your mess gear, and you’d pick up your chow and go sit down to a table. And when you got through they had eight open-top barrels with planes under them outside. Well there was four of them that you scraped your mess gear out in those barrels, and then on the end where the boiling water was and everything, there’s where you washed your mess gear and then took them back to your quarters and hung them up to dry. Well, we got there (it was just, I guess somewhere around the fifth of September when we pulled in there), so it was pretty good weather. Well the first time we ate and came out there to scrape our gear out and wash them, all four of those open-top barrels had little Japanese kids standing there going through what used to be pig swill. Their clothes hung on them like there was just nothing but a pole inside. No shoes on their feet and nothing on their head. And then here would come the adults and run a competition and they were fighting over the contents of the barrels, what we would scrape off in there. Enough to turn your stomach, those poor little kids. Well, we hadn’t been there very long, the next thing you knew the mess sergeant was complaining he was having to go through too much food, too many groceries. So the company commander, he decided he better find out what was going on, so he went into the mess hall, collected all the KPs and the table waiters and the cooks and he really had a chat with them. Well, they were putting it out where they were supposed to, and putting on the mess gear as we would come through the line. Well, yeah, but those guys are loading up their mess gear more than they ever did before. We never seen them load it up like that in our lives. And those little kids would come over you know, with just about Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  47   �any kind of a plate or something that they could find. And so we would go along and we would just scrape off half of what we had. When the Army found that out, boy I’ll tell you, they brought that to a halt in a hurry! So then they put up a big, high chain-link fence to keep them out. And later on when it started to snow, the first time it snowed it dropped a foot of snow. BM: Oh, gee. JH: Here was them kids over there, coming down to those barrels and hanging their little fingers in those chain-link fences and looking over there so . . . [End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B] BM: [Tape 3: Side] Two. Go ahead. JH: There go battle-hardened soldiers standing there with tears running out of their eyes and dripping down off their chin. So we all of us got in touch – well all of us non-coms we got a hold of the company commander and asked him to have a talk with him, which we did. What can be done about it? And he said, “This is military gentlemen. You know as well as I do,” and he says, “we’re having trouble. There’s enough trouble and expense of getting food in here to you guys to get the job done. If you’re going to part with food like that, we just can’t afford it for one thing.” And he says, “You’re never going to fill them kids up.” Well who is? [And, he said] “That’s the Japanese people’s problem and you’re not to mix in it.” Then when I’d go out on my tour of duty, my riot patrol, we’d go by some of those little grade schools, you know, and see the same thing: them little kids. And the teachers just come right out and gather them little kids up and push them up to the school house. When you’d see them, why they’d be out just like our kids, you know, for recess. And it took almost three weeks before I could stop my squad from beside that fence and get those teachers to say one word to me. We had a whole bunch of those cock-eyed little bars – BM: These are the chocolate bars? JH: Yeah, the little chocolate bars. I’d gone over to the kitchen and swiped a couple of cartons. BM: [Laughing] JH: I did. [Laughing] I wanted to make friends with them kids, you know. My squad contained eight men, plus myself. And six of them was back in that squad truck behind me. I made them stay there, and my Jeep driver – I made him stay in the seat of the Jeep and I got out and walked over there with my pocket full of them. This one teacher – she’d seen enough of us and we hadn’t done any problems there, so I talked to her. I said, “Did you happen to speak English?” I knew a little Japanese, but I Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  48   �you know, I didn’t know all that much. And she said in just as plain of English as you could get, “Yes, I do.” And so I told her, I said, “I have some of our rations, little candy bars. They’re Tropical Hershey’s candy bars and they’re made by Hershey company. I’m sure you know about Hershey’s chocolate bars.” And she said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “Well I would like to give them little kids one of these bars.” I guess there must have been about 30 little kids that was in that class. The next thing I knew, here come two more teachers down there. I guess they got to wondering what was going on, you know. So they come down to see what was going on. So them three got their heads together and they decided to let me pass out a bar to them kids. So I got in the back of the Jeep and opened up one of them boxes and took it over there. And I passed out a little candy bar to each one of them little kids and then I handed all the teachers one. I ate one myself, to start with so they would know it was alright to eat. Well after that when I’d go by, “Chocoletto-zho.” [Laughing] BM: Were you able to do that again? Sharing chocolate with them? JH: Yeah. BM: Oh, that’s nice. JH: Yeah. I got my squad all together and I said, “Now it ain’t right that we just go and steal these chocolates over there.” So we pooled our money and bought them. And that wasn’t the only school. On that 40 square miles there was about four little grade schools on it and one high school. But around that high school I never saw anything but a little bit older Japanese boys that would’ve been maybe 14. But you didn’t see a girl, not a girl. It was quite a thing. BM: And this was in Nagoya, Japan? JH: This was Nagoya, Japan. Yeah. BM: So you were in the Philippines first, and then in Nagoya – JH: Um-hmm. BM: And then your job in Nagoya was what again? JH: I was a riot patrol sergeant. BM: Okay. Which means what? JH: Huh? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  49   �BM: Which means what? What does it mean? What’s the job? JH: Oh. To make sure that there is no riots going on in the area. Because we didn’t know, you know, how they was going to receive us. For a long time you still didn’t know what was going on, especially in that area where they’d use those incendiaries and burn everything to the ground. You know, you’d have to naturally consider the fact that feelings wasn’t going to be very good about you. So that’s what the deal was. We never did have any problems. This boy that I showed you here (my old buddy) – he had a squad, you know. He had a different district than I had. He ran in to the same thing that I did. He had just an open heart as I did. Then we had another buddy from Iowa, that the three of us were occupying the same room together and all three of us were riot patrol sergeants and they had their district, same as I did. We all had similar kind of situation. The Japanese people could speak better English than we could. BM: Hmm. JH: The whole big bunch of them. There were very few of them you ever ran across that couldn’t speak much English. BM: Um-hmm. How many people were from your area that you were over there with? From Utah – JH: From Utah? BM: Or even from this northern Utah area? JH: Well, from Utah there was seven of us in that one assault battalion. And we spearheaded every lousy battle that we had in there in Luzon. We was the first ones on [inaudible] beach head. One of them was from Moab, down here. The other one was from Manila – they’re both gone. The one from Moab, he wound up – his family is down here in Sandy. And he passed away here, it’s been not quite a year now since he’s been gone. And the other one has been gone a year. And those are all I know of from around here anywhere. BM: Were they coming from similar backgrounds? When you think of the people you served with, were they similar kids as far as farm boys or ranch? JH: Yeah, quite a bit of them. Most of them were. Most of them in that outfit were. The outfit we belonged to was a 25th Infantry Division. And their home base is Schofield barracks within a 15 minute bicycle ride of Pearl Harbor. That division is regular Army. And we was sworn into the regular Army and they can keep you just as long as they think you’ve got anything that they need. My commander wanted me to ship over for two more years. And I told him, “Nope.” I said, “I’ve had enough of the Army. I’ve had enough of the fighting. I’m going back home over in that little valley that I know of and the surrounding areas where they grow the most beautiful girls you’ve ever seen. I’m going to find me a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  50   �mate, and the next thing I’m going to do is I’m going to get me a horse. And get that sucker so I can climb up in that seat and look in between his ears and get out on a range where nobody can bother me.” BM: [Laughing] JH: And he looked at me. He was from Texas, he was from Dallas, Texas and he came off of a ranch too, the louse. Well, that’s when we was coming home on points. I think I had 58 points. BM: Wait. So what does on “points” mean? JH: Well, points they give you for your accomplishments in the military anywhere. Chiefly your battles that you were in, and your citations. I had three Bronze Stars; I went from a PSE to a Buck Sergeant in 15 minutes. And that was under a heavy battle. I was still packing a radio. BM: Because you were in communications? JH: Pardon? BM: Because you were trained in communications? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. I was still in communications. When we went up to Luzon to battle, I’d never seen a radio before, but I’d seen machine guns and I’d been around machine guns in basic training. So they attached me to a machine gun squad. And on this particular time I’d been with that squad for a couple of months. The squad leader got shot through the neck (right there, a bullet). Just shot him wide open while I was standing right there talking to him with my radio in my hand to transfer a message from him to the company commander. I was standing there trying to talk in it, all of a sudden pop! And something hot hit me, went down my throat, and all in my eyes – I couldn’t see. I couldn’t hardly hand on to that radio receiver, and I couldn’t imagine what in the sam-hell had happened. And Dave, he just hurled. And then I realized what had happened, you know. “Pressure point, pressure point, pressure point Hansen!” I tried to find it up there, couldn’t find it. I had to go up on his fatigue jacket and get up here in his armpit and I was lucky enough to find it. And then I was screaming and hollering for an aid man because he was bleeding so bad. Now I was having to hold him and tried to move him over so I could get him to go down so that sniper wasn’t going to get us again. Here, a brand-new squad of fresh little high school seniors that had come up to that squad that morning and didn’t know doodlysquat about combat. Nothing. Both guns sitting out in the wide open in a bad place and we had a banzai attack coming down the hill up there, 500 yards away. Well, anyway I hollered at those kids and told them to get them guns pulled back and get them up where I was standing and they just stood there and looked at me. About that time the captain come on and he said, “Hansen,” (it was a rare occasion you ever heard that man swear, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  51   �but boy he had some choice words that morning!), “what in the blankety-blank-blank is going on up there?” And so I told him what had happened. Now he said, “You listen to me and you make damn sure you listen carefully. Because what I’ve got to tell you,” he said, “is going to mean that you’re going to have to dig in here. Get that radio,” he said, “take over that squad immediately, and get them a moving. Even as I speak,” he said, “you have a battle line under fire promotion from PFC to Sergeant. That’s your squad from here on out buddy, and you make it work!” BM: And did you still have this guy? JH: I still had him, trying to get him down. Well at that time the K Company’s aid men heard me and he come a hoofing up there. One of their first lieutenants (he was only about 20 feet away from me) and he had both hands full with his people. Then he dropped them and come up to help me get him down. So anyway, got that all took care of. And him and an aid man took David over and took him down. We were working on a real rocky, awful, nasty spot. We called it the “iron head.” You couldn’t dig a hole. And I turned and those kids were still standing there. This one kid I said, “If you don’t get them guns back up here, you’re going to wish to blankety-blank that you did. You see them Japs coming down up there? You’re out in the wide open!” And two of them had came in the night before and it was the only two that he had in his squad at that time. The other five had come up that morning. This one kid stood there and he said, “Well, I don’t know who you think you are,” he says, “I had military training in high school, I just graduated from it,” he says, “I don’t know why you can throw over at me.” And I said, “Mister, one more word out of you without I see action and you’re going to find out about it. Get a move on!” And he just stood there, just cocky – I couldn’t let him get away with it. When you’re under orders when that happens, you take action, you take that man out. So I pulled my .45 out, jacked her back, calm, walked down, knocked his helmet off, smacked him right on the side of the face there. And I mean I put him down. You’re told to kill them, don’t monkey with them. Well, I didn’t want to do that, but I knew I had to get him out of the way. When I did that I got some action out of the rest of them! BM: You got everybody psyched. JH: Yeah. So we got both guns back down where I could get a feel of the fire form, and then I had to go drag him out along the way, because he was right square where I had to have that ledge to go along the ground when he crawled up on you. Well I walked up to him and hoped he didn’t get hit, backed up and got my arms under his boot heels like that and under my arms, and I just dragged him down to where the rest of them were, his head’s a bouncing. I thought he was dead and took him down and the K Company’s lieutenant says, “Is he dead?” And I said, “I don’t know, and I don’t much care. I haven’t got the time, I’ve got to get these guys set up.” And then I just pulled my canteen out (and that’s one thing you very rarely had, was enough water). I just dumped that canteen in his face and started washing him. And pretty soon he started showing some signs of life. The Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  52   �lieutenant, he walked over, took the cork off his and dumped it on him. And between the two of us we got him a going. Well, to make a long story a little shorter, he turned out to be the best man we had in the squad. When I left I recommended him to take my place. BM: Oh. That’s great. Well you’re a leader and a teacher with that, you know. JH: Well, that’s your job and boy, you better do it because if you don’t, they will. BM: Yep. And then you came back? JH: Yeah. BM: And you got back on your horse? And got married? JH: Yep, I did. I did. BM: What is the date of that? JH: Well we were married on the sixteenth day of August, 1946. BM: Oh. Okay. JH: I don’t think I’d been home – I don’t think I’d been home much more than a month. And the funny part of it is I hadn’t ever dated her! I graduated school down there, the same school she was and one of my best buddies that lived in Ogden come up here and he was dating her when he come up. And I was dating her best buddy! [Laughing] BM: The old switcheroo there! JH: Oh, yeah! [Laughing] Interesting! BM: And then you both moved in here. JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. Well I think at this point, what we ought to do is stop because we’re just about at the end of this tape. And what I’d like to do is next time we get to talk, I’d like to pick up from that point. JH: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  53   �BM: Okay? And then we also want to interview a little more on, definitely on the veterans and the World War II. I want to separate those two. But I am going to stop you here just because we’re about to run out of tape, and I am out of tapes! [Laughing] JH: You’ve got as far as you can go, I don’t want to overrun you! BM: You’re fine! You’re fine. This has been wonderful. Is there anything you want to say in closing, before we sign off for today? JH: Well I would have this to say to your students, as I understand it. Listen to your teacher and listen to your old people. Go and ask them some questions; don’t be afraid to go ask them questions. When I came home, nobody knew anything about – well, they knew where I’d been, but I just couldn’t talk about it. I didn’t talk about it until I had half of my children here. And then the thing that knocked me to, was the simple fact: history wasn’t being taught. Sports had all of a sudden taken place of history that these people nowadays need to know about. Because I am just scared to death their going to take a good look at her. And if you don’t know anything about it, you’re the first one’s to run. So I would say to them, learn all you can from your elders and your teachers; if they’re willing to teach you, listen to them. Then you’ll be a whole lot better off, and so will the nation. BM: Okay. JH: I guess that’s it. BM: Well thank you very much. This has been delightful. To be continued. JH: To be continued? Okay! [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  54   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John K. Hansen interview, 12 March 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah, and his earliest memories of Logan Canyon, three years in the South Pacific during World War II, 18 years in highway construction with W.W. Clyde and Company over in Springville, Utah, returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hansen, John K., 1924- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Hansen, John K., 1924---Interviews Hansen, John K., 1924---Family Garden City (Utah)--History Sheep ranchers--Utah--Garden City Sheep--Utah--History Sheepherding--Utah--Rich County Sheepherding--Utah--Logan Canyon Ranching--Utah--Garden City--History Ranch life--Utah--Garden City Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Cattle herding--Utah Cattle herding--Wyoming Ranchers--Utah--Biography Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maintenance and repair Fishing--Utah--Logan Canyon World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Logan Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Plain City (Utah) Randolf (Utah) Woodruff (Utah) Temple Fork (Utah) White Pine Lake (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Garden City (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 3 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd3JohnKHansen Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12 March 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-03-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/e043b6437fe21a9b953f92381903b6ef.mp3 b402d958140ac2ac17780e155c737cd4 https://highway89.org/files/original/b26ba0bf286f3df603e1dbd3ada0d5d0.pdf 191f30876a7d6afb212f7828b447a85e PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Jim Kennedy Place of Interview: Date of Interview: Quinney Library, College of Natural Resources, USU May 4, 2009 & May 5, 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Radio Shack, CTR-122 Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Barbara Middleton 25August 2009; Randy Williams, 12 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JK = Jim Kennedy NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Tape four was never turned into the USU Special Collections for deposit or transcription. At the end of the transcript is Professor Kennedy’s 2005 CV. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 3: A] BM: This is Barbara Middleton, and we are here on the USU campus with Jim Kennedy on Monday, April 4th. It’s about 2:00 in the afternoon, and we’re in the Quinney Natural Resources Library, recording for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project. So, welcome Jim. JK: Thank you. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  1   �BM: Why don’t you go ahead and start off with your – JK: Do you just want me to follow the script? Pretty much, until I get down to my – yeah, let’s just do that. BM: Why don’t you start with your full name and then a biographical sketch? JK: I’m James Joseph Kennedy, III. I was born in Philadelphia in 1940; it was about four weeks after Hitler invaded the Benelux Countries. My first memories are of the city. I was a first child with my grandparents. And the only person that wasn’t involved in the war effort was my grandmother, who pretty much raised me. My grandfather worked in the steel mills and was a Labor Union organizer (which is deep in my DNA, in my social values and the way I look at the world). My father was in charge of building altimeters, eventually for B29s and RCA. My mother was the executive secretary for a firm that suddenly became hugely important in developing fire extinguishing foam systems for aircraft carriers. I remember when the war ended. I remember the black shades on the windows. I remember the sense of, you know, everyone working hard to do something to defeat evil. The first Christmas present I can remember asking for at age three – excuse me, age four – was a wagon, so I could go collect tin and paper and recycle stuff to help defeat evil. But after the war was over we moved up to central Pennsylvania. My favorite place in Philadelphia were always the parks, even when they put gun emplacements up on Fernhill Park, next to Midvale Steel in Philadelphia (you know, in case of supposed bombing or attack or anything on that important industry that proved a large portion of the metal for the Philadelphia naval yards). I always spent time in the park, even when they tried to keep people out of that. I bartered with the guards to let me go in at certain times in that restricted territory, just to be out where it was green, and trees and birds, and even garter snakes in that part of Philadelphia. My favorite place to go was to go to the zoo. I always loved the wild lands. And so after the war when my father had to change jobs and move up to central Pennsylvania, we moved on to a farm. We rented the farm and the family (a huge family, with probably an average of maybe 7th grade education, with about their nine children) rented the land, 300 acres of the farm that we were living on, renting the house on. They had a smaller, less prosperous adjacent farm, and that wild land and those fields, and also the open-heartedness of these (and in no disrespect say “simple”) people. Probably one of the persons that had one of the greatest impacts on my life is still alive at probably 95; one of the young men there, never married. He took to us kids and we followed him, he started paying us a pittance to work for him. I learned never to whine, you know, never to complain; never to blame anyone. It just didn’t benefit you. I learned a work ethic. I learned that’s how you got respect from adults, by doing what you’re told without whining and doing it well. But also being able to have a sense of humor and irony and fun at what you were doing. And a person that probably didn’t graduate from junior high taught me that as much as anybody. And also, just how to live off the land – which they did legally and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  2   �illegally with great skill; had been doing so for generations. I don’t think any of those people, other than maybe a brother that was strapped into the war had ever been more than 50 miles from where they were born. It was a very rural, rural area. Someone once described Pennsylvania as Philadelphia to the east, Pittsburgh to the west, and Appalachia in between; and I was raised in Appalachia. BM: What was the town? JK: It was called Montgomery, Pennsylvania. Then we moved a few miles to less of a middle town (though all those towns were middle towns, and would now be called “rust bucket” areas). Then we moved into town, bought a house. That was the first house my parents owned, and that would have been 15 years of marriage (I just turned 12), and we moved to that little town. We had been going over there to the Catholic Church, so I knew some Catholic kids there. Our graduation class was only 49, of which three of us got PhDs, and about a third of us went to college (which is really astounding when I think of it). But when I moved, it was very much a small town. Everybody knew you almost to a fault, and especially even a smaller subset of our community of 2500 people within a church and a school. But it was a good place to grow up. I was, again, much closer to the floodplain and the tributaries of the Susquehanna River – which was just like, you know, Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer’s playground and growing up an adventure place for me. I spent a lot of time in the forest and woods. I always liked getting up early in the morning, even if there weren’t cows to milk, or traps to check. But I was always involved in trapping, hunting, fishing and getting up early in the morning. I was an ADHD kid, so I was hyperactive, easily bored, short attention span, hated being cooped up inside of buildings (whether it was for church, for family reunions or for school). And by getting out early in the morning and releasing some energy and feeding my spirit and having some control over my life independently of the adult world, I was ready to face the adult world at 8:45 when the school bell rang. And I found it was wonderful therapy for me. So I always went to the woods, and went to the fields and the streams. BM: You mentioned trapping. Would you tell us a little bit about that? JK: Well it’s as brutal of a relationship as you can have with nature, maybe with the exception of bull fighting. And at the time I knew that. One of the earliest things I had to wrestle with as a child was my sensitivity to animals and lots of stuff that wasn’t okay for boys in the ‘40s and ‘50s to have. If you brought up as a topic it was usually shunned and ridiculed or laughed at, so you rarely did that. The only people you might be able to talk to with were girls, and that wasn’t cool at that age in that era either. And so I remember that I never, ever missed going out to check my trap line. I remember one time my mother trying to lock me in when I had a 103 fever. The chances of finding a muskrat in the traps that I set, the way we set them alive after five minutes when the trap would bite them and they would dive in the water for protection, they would drown; maybe one out of 20 of the muskrats we took out of our traps were alive, which was increased torture. I always considered that really Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  3   �important, and mortal sin to me would’ve been, you know – some people do not check a trap line for two, three, or four days. That, to me, was just unpardonable. So in a perverse way it did develop a certain ethic. And you know, my feelings that 4:45 or 5:10 in the morning when it was raining outside wasn’t the issue, damn it. You had a job to do and if you want to engage in such a brutal activity, you had to have at least some standards involved in the process. A lot of the animals we were trapping had bounties on them, such as fox and weasel. When I first started trapping, at probably age 10, the state said they were bad and gave you money to prove it – there was a certain sense of – you know everything was, you know, most beliefs were accepted with zero tolerance. This was it, period; whether it was your being educated in your religion, your politics or in school. And if you had feelings against that, especially as a man, you were supposed to get a hold of them. And the fact that shooting animals, or trapping them especially, would bother me and continued to do so was troublesome to me. And I thought somehow that I was wrong. Most the other adult males and boys didn’t seem to have that problem at all. But I loved the mornings. I must say that I probably enjoyed trapping more than anything; I was usually out by myself. And later as I became a teenager and we got automobiles with my trapping buddy (we’re still very close) – he went right into the steel mills after high school, and we still talk and respect and love each other very much. So for about three years I did it with a person who I became very, very close to. Plus it was earning money, which was really important. And earning money was a badge of manhood, and adulthood, and responsibility and accomplishment. And we earned money from it; we were very, very good at it. And we worked hard at it, and fast, and checked our traps (you know, we were out there twice a day). The number of animals we caught per trap, per year was astounding; maybe the average would be three and for us it was 30! BM: Wow. JK: Because we moved them everyday, you know if they didn’t catch anything. And moved fast through a stream, and then came back over it a month later, for example, just to get a high probably sets with your traps. And I hunted and fished; all of that stuff as well. BM: Just in terms of setting your traps, you’re saying they’re in wet areas? JK: Well, obviously fox and weasel weren’t; but for mink, raccoon and primarily muskrat. Muskrat were the most abundant, the easiest to catch and they were, you know you could average $1.50 per pelt – which today would probably be $10. BM: Um-hmm. JK: And if you caught, you know, 500 of them – well, we’d catch about 350 a season. So you know, multiply that times $10 – for some kids to do something. Well we’d get 350 when we had a car, with about 45-50 traps. And of course you had to skin them; you know, skin them, scrape them, cure them. And it was a lot of work, and a lot of effort, and a lot of skill. There Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  4   �was a blood and blister intimacy with everything that you did in that rural environment in the ‘40s and ‘50s; whether it was recreation, whether it was work, whether it was hunting/fishing, and whether it was you getting paddled by the teachers or something, you know. It was much more intimate and direct than today. BM: The money that you earned, was that to help support your family? JK: Well, saving money for college, so indirectly yes. But also, you know anything you wanted you had to – anything extra other than Christmas presents and birthday presents – you had to get for yourself. And if you broke a birthday present, you know, that was tough. You had to replace it. And so it was you know, the money was important. When we lived on the farm we weren’t that wealthy. I was the first Kennedy in my family to go to college. I bet you I killed and we ate cottontails and squirrels, probably 200 year, for the family. That’s quite a lot of protein. In fact a columnist used to call squirrels “meat that grew on trees.” On the other side of the Mississippi, here’s a rodent that didn’t hibernate, and didn’t burrow under the snow like mice – it was always up in trees, it was always visible, and it kept a huge number of families from starving over the winters. They were always abundant. BM: How did you prepare it? JK: Oh you know, you usually par-boil them, and then roast them, bake them. You can make squirrel stew; they’re very tough meat, but they’re very good, very succulent. It’s unlike rabbit, you know. Rabbits are easier to vanish; squirrels are very muscular, but very good protein and very good food. And woodchucks, you know. All sorts of stuff we’d eat, and lots of it. And of course we’d always kill a couple of deer. So we had huge pit freezers, old ice cream freezers that would hold three times the amount that a normal freezer would today, that we would keep in a special room because they took up so much space. BM: And by a pit freezer, you mean a deep freeze? JK: Yeah, that’s right, yeah. And so I grew up – my brothers didn’t – but I grew up as the oldest, you know, doing a lot of that providing for the family. Then we moved more to a town where they cut grass and worked in grocery stores (all of which I did too) in the summer. But I worked just about every day, and with a trap on you worked – it was weekends and everything. BM: Sounds like having a dairy cow. JK: Yeah. And I milked cows by hand when we lived on the farm, until I was 12. And then I worked on farms in the summer, but by then the farms that employed us were milking with automatic equipment, and milking 100 cows a day; big, big operations. And I liked that too. I like the smell of fresh hay, I like using my muscles, I like being out in the sun, I like being on the farm. By then, using heavy equipment before you could drive at 16 you could be driving powerful machinery, and very dangerous equipment on the farm; and I liked that. In fact, if my father had owned a decent farm, I might have never gone to college or certainly wouldn’t have left afterwards. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  5   �I liked the rhythm of farm work, and I like the smells and the connections and the meaning, the depth, and the – I don’t want to call it spirituality, but the meditativeness of it all. It was very meditative work; I never had more time to think than when I was plowing. You don’t have that much time to think around a university. Much more time to think when you’re doing something – all you had to do is every five minutes just lift the plow, spin it around and drop it. I loved plowing at night, in the spring with the odors and the smells and the pull of the plow. Before I left the farm in Montgomery at age 12, they wouldn’t let me around heavy equipment. But the farmers, they were so poor, they didn’t have much equipment. I used the last two draft horses they had in a couple of generations, they could remember the names of all the draft horses: Tony and Burt because they were safe. And I would harrow corn with Tony and Burt and do things like that, that were slow and boring – while they would be on the expensive equipment, and the high status equipment, the tractor (and the more dangerous equipment). BM: Um-hmm. JK: And the smell of horses, and being around horses that weighed then, probably ten times as much as I did as a skinny ten year old. And that gentleness and that power and that predictability and that loyalty: both literally and figuratively. Draft horses are, you know, deep in my memories – symbolically as well as just fond memories. When people talk about ice skating and horses for fun – I just associate that with work, you know. Once the ice would freeze on the Susquehanna River, I’d go out and I’d skate five miles before school, just checking the muskrat traps through the ice. So ice skating and horses, that was work (not un-fond memories), and of course trucks too. And now trucks are these, you know, “boy toys.” You know, I can remember pickup trucks in the ’40s that were rough, nasty, uncomfortable, and there were dozens of parts on those trucks that have developed a taste for human blood; they would bite your fingers around the tailgates, and they were sharp, and nasty and mean! Nothing cozy about a bloody truck. Well and there’s nothing cozy about Holsteins either, and a measure or a mark of becoming an urban world is how people romanticize Holsteins. You know, after the first 10% of their life Holsteins aren’t very playful, you know, it’s hard to have much of a relationship with them. They just line up and you pull the milk out of them, and then shovel away all their crap and put it in the manure spreader in the spring (which was really back-breaking work), shovel the food into them. And most of it became manure; about 5% of all the silage and hay you’ve worked so hard to store up for them and feed them, ended up in milk. Most of it ended up in back-breaking feces to haul out and put on the field. But you know you learned the rhythm of working a fork and using your back and spinning your body. And I must say when we’d come back from Sunday Mass often, as a kid in the winter when the cows were in underneath the barn in a (mostly) covered barnyard – BM: Bank barns? JK: Yeah. It was a big – you know Pennsylvania barns – this was a serious barn. There were a couple of cows, probably 30, they milked by hand. And I’d put some fresh straw down and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  6   �bring them over on the south side where there would be a window; and you know, they would plop down and I’d lie against the cows and read – they generate so much heat. There’s never nothing going on inside a cow’s belly. I mean it is like New York traffic at noon! I mean there is bubbling, and gurgling, and gas, and belching; they are always chewing, and farting, and gurgling. And it’s really kind of content to just lay on Sunday, when you didn’t have to work (until you had to milk them by the time the sun went down). When it would be sleeting and nasty outside, to lie against a cow and read; and I would do that. BM: Your comments and your stories are so sensuous in a way that is not just milking the cow, but everything associated with it. You know, it’s no wonder you have such connections with natural resources, with the kinds of feelings and emotions that you have in just explaining life on the farm. JK: Um-hmm. BM: I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it described quite that way. JK: Well, even milking cows by hand – I mean I still have the forearms of a hand cow-milker or a piano player. That’s about the two ways you really get gripping forearms that way. There’s almost nothing physical that I ever would shut down on than milking. You can only milk a certain point, and then your hands would cramp up. You’d go in for breakfast and you couldn’t hold a spoon. Your hands would just be knotted. And that would be on the first cow and a half or two cows; it takes incredible grip and strength to hold and strip those teats. And if you’ve ever looked closely to the back of a cow – the hind, where the hams meet the stomach cavity, there’s a piece of skin, and you can pull that down and put your head up underneath there when it’s really cold. And you can put your head up right next to a cow, and of course your ear is right next to its stomach – BM: Right. JK: And you really, it’s like listening to the earth’s core. I mean, seriously. There’s just a lot – with all the fermentation that occurs in the digestive process, and all the double, triple chewing, you know, and all the gases (methane gases) are created by that process. Cows really – a cow is never quiet. Gurgling and it’s kind of interesting. And it was kind of meditative; you could hear the milk hitting the can: bing, bam, bam. And then the milk would fill up and it would change tune. And your head would be warm; you’d be against this animal that (some of them you had to put kickers on to milk by hand). BM: What was that? JK: They were chain kickers – you would put them around the back two legs, you’d just wrap them around. It was kind of a clamp that was on their hamstring, their Achilles tendon, if you will. You put it on a clamp and you just wrap the chain around. And it was loose, but if they kicked, it thwarted that; it stopped that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  7   �And I worked on farms during my teenage years, even though I could’ve worked in grocery stores for half the time and as much money. And I worked with some real jerks too, on some farms. Men had damaged little boys inside them that were just jerks; weren’t happy, weren’t content, weren’t peaceful. And even though they had the potential – they weren’t inherently evil or vicious if you gave them the benefit of the doubt – by their behavior they often looked that way. I still liked working out with my body, rather than working in a grocery store. And I liked the smells and feels out there, compared to being in the grocery store, or in a garage, or in the mills (which money drove me into when I started going to college). And I worked in the mills – you know cabinet mills, with all the smell of lacquer and sawdust, all the noise and toxic you know, steel mills with all the danger and noise and banging. And that I never, never liked. But I could make money; I could make serious money there. I didn’t start out in Forestry, you know. Being the first Kennedy to go to college, I wanted to be an artist, but my parents wouldn’t hear of it; especially my mother who was very emotional, and very insecure, and very status-driven, and upwardly mobile (what the neighbors think). They want me to be a doctor or lawyer; when I first said I liked to be an artist, you know, “Glory be to God! Jesus, Mary and Joseph you’re never going to make any money, you’re going to be living with some Protestant girl in Greenwich Village you’re not married with!” You know – I wouldn’t do that. “You’re going to be broke! We’re not going to work our fingers to the bone to send you to be some artist.” And I said, “Mom, I can be an art teacher until I make it.” “No, no, no!” So I had a really close friend to the family, unlike some of the men that I worked for that I told you about – but he was a dentist in Scranton, Pennsylvania (we called him “Uncle” but he wasn’t, he was just a good friend of the family). He was sweet; he was one of the first men that was really sweet and seemed to be okay with it and everyone else was – he was just a nice guy. And his son didn’t want to be a dentist and he said, “Be a dentist Jimmy, and you know, you’ll come on by the time I can start you in my practice; you’ll give me some time off and I’ll just give you the practice after you work there for five or six years.” You know, it was job security and a good income and a house in suburbia, but I was having nightmares about putting my hand in people’s warm, red mouth. Now I’m an adolescent and I’m sure Freud would have a field day with that! BM: [Laughing] JK: But I would wake up full of sweat, just terrified, thinking, “Oh my god! I’m going to be reaching in mouths all day!” Inside a dentist’s office always smelled terrible, and you cause pain to people. And so I went up to Penn State to interview, and they gave me (this would have been the summer of ’58), they gave me the test of what I would be good at. It was this pimple-faced (probably Master’s) grad student psychologist, you know, that has to do the grunt work after the meeting with the parents. But my parents were such ‘40s product, you know, early 19th century product, and [he] looked official; they gave them the benefit of the doubt, to a fault. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  8   �So he’s looking through my results and said, “You don’t score very high here, being a dentist. Why do you want to be a dentist?” And I said, “Well, I really don’t.” And he said (he was very official at first), and then he sent my parents out and then he asked me that question. He said, “Why are you doing it?” And I said, “Well, my parents want me to and I’d be working, blah, blah, blah.” And he said, “But are you going to be happy doing that?” I said, “No, I don’t think so, but I’ll just spend the weekends hunting and fishing and doing stuff to compensate for that.” And he said, “Well what job would you really like to do?” And I said, “Well, I’d like to be a forester.” And he said, “Well, look right here, you score very high on the success chart for that.” And he said, “We have a very good forestry program here.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And he said, “Well, I tell you what. Why don’t we talk to your parents?” And so my parents came in and he brought that up, my mother, “Oh, glory be to god! He’s going to work out in a fire tower and be living with bears, and we’ll never see him, he’ll never make any money, he’ll just be a hermit and I’ll never be a grandmother!” BM: [Laughing] JK: But my father said, “Well, why do you want to do that Jim?” And I said, “I think I’ll be happy.” “Happy? Happy, what’s happy have to do with it, for god’s sakes?” [Laughing] So, the guy said, “Listen, I have to take a break.” So I remember we went out at the HUB, you know – I think it was the Hetzel Student Union – BM: Hetzel Student Union Building. JK: And we leaned on the railing, looking down, across campus towards the town, you know, in that direction (I remember the direction we were looking at, down towards DU, which was the fraternity I was in when I went to school there). And dad said, “Why do you want to do it?” I said, “I think it will make me happy, Dad.” And he said, “Well, happy hmm?” He said, “Well, I haven’t been very happy in what I’ve done most of my life, so if you want to do it, I’ll support you. I’ll manage Mom.” And that was the most intimate – my father was very spoiled, very self-centered; the only child of an Irish immigrant (she didn’t get married until she was in her 30s, and been a domestic until that point); spoiled him rotten. But he was a nice guy, but you had to – one of the reasons that I learned to hunt and fish is that was the only way I could spend time with him. You had to do what he wanted to do. And long before I could carry a gun, I was his beagle. I skinned all the animals, cleaned the fish, you know, take care of his fly lines, dry them. I mean I was his page, you know if you will. And he, you know, for a gentleman that was quite appropriate. But we did spend time together and we got to like and know each other. But that’s one of the only times where I really thought he understood me and came to my rescue. So I switched into Forestry and never regretted it. Although I was getting into Forestry because I thought I could escape a complex world by working in the trees and not having to deal with people and feelings, and check on my trap line on the way to mark timber, or something out west. Seldom would be heard a discouraging word. I never knew I would have to work with people; I was terrified of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  9   �speaking. I was pretty insecure too. I was running away from things getting into forestry, as much as I was drawn to, you know, thinking it would be a good thing to do; it would be a noble area that I would be involved in public service. BM: So tell me what it was like studying forestry at that time, in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s? JK: It was very much like getting ready for your confirmation. You know, you were taught Forestry like the Baltimore catechism as a Catholic. This is truth, get it dummy, and don’t forget it. Fire is bad; you put it out by 10 o’clock, end of story. No debate; there was no room for ambiguity, much less a sense of humor with my professors or imagination. And the image of what they were training you for was a driver’s license, rather than a learner’s permit. I mean, there was none of this continuous learning imagery and what we talk about now, today, in any stage of education: imagination, taking risks, confrontation, all that stuff – it’s more talked about than practiced. And it still isn’t as embraced among colleagues as much as you would think it would with all the lather about it. And I resisted that, you know. I wasn’t a very good student. I was a C+ student until my junior year, when I said, “To hell with it! I’m killing myself; I’m working 60 hours a week, you know. I’m smoking a couple of packs of cigarettes a day; I’m not having any fun.” By the end of my sophomore year we went to summer camp in central Pennsylvania, I still had yet to go work for my first forestry job. I’d got back and work – [End Tape 1 side A, begin Tape 1 side B] BM: Side 2, with Jim Kennedy. Sophomore year. JK: Yeah, I said, “The heck with it. I’m going to join a fraternity; I’m going to start having fun.” I went out for lacrosse. I cut back my studying to 40 hours a week, you know, and my grade point average – I started dating girls. My grade point average jumped. Probably jumped from a 2.3, was my grade point average at the end of my sophomore year – which was 60% of the total credits in those days, the way that they would cram so much in the first two preparatory years – and my grade point average jumped to 3. And I started feeling better about myself. I think my colleagues, my fraternity brothers voted me into leadership positions: as Rush Chairman, Social Chairman, Vice President (that I didn’t think I could do, didn’t want, and was stunned why they were so stupid to entrust me to do that!). [Laughing] BM: [Laughing] What fraternity is this? JK: Delta Upsilon. BM: Okay. JK: And I did well. And that probably saved me more than anything. And ironically, rather than my grade point average going down for feeling better about myself, it went up. I lettered as Lacrosse Manager at Penn State my senior year, for a wonderful coach – Pensick. Pensick Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  10   �was the Lacrosse coach; lovely young guy. Probably he was only about 28; I really loved and respected him. And I didn’t feel that way about most of my university professors; they were pretty rigid, humorless. I don’t know. Pennsylvania then, forest products were not the values of Pennsylvania forests in the ‘50s, and they behaved like it was. They were still treating them like a tree farm, and I knew better than that. And it was no spirituality about it, far from it. That was considered touchy-feely crap. And so again, even at that stage I couldn’t think openly and discuss openly my relationship with forests. BM: So how did – with Delta Upsilon – JK: Yeah. BM: How did that start to change? I mean, were there mentors there? Were there people that you looked up to, or? JK: I had some good brothers (as well as some real jerks). You know, we went through a brutal pledge process a humiliating pledge process. But you know I knew how to do that stuff. And as a result, afterwards when we went into the Forest Service and all the male rituals that would, you know, intimidate and anger some of our male students (and especially the females), I knew that stuff. I knew it didn’t last forever; I knew it was, you know, kind of cheap rituals that males tended to do in initial bonding activities. So I went through that. But no, it gave me a community in a huge, impersonal place like Penn State. And you know how important that is. And I think it did that, and it gave me a sense of confidence that I could be as good as these guys in almost anything, and they all came from (seemed) better backgrounds than me. I came from as lower-class as probably, a lower class than 80% of my fraternity brothers and pledges. And yet, they thought I was more than okay. And you know, so for leadership and confidence, that was a real boost to me. As again, I wasn’t a very good undergraduate student. There was one professor at Penn State who saved me, by the name of Bob McDermott, who appreciated a sense of humor. Most of my professors did not like being questioned, where Bob just loved questions and kept, you know – like my educational method is just begging students, encouraging students, teasing them, confronting them to open up and get involved in some kind of a dance, rather than sitting around like a bunch of toads, taking notes. And he became one of my champions and he got me back into a master’s program at Penn State. My grades, even my success in the last two years hardly pulled me up. And a lot of the professors still identified me as a trouble-maker and an annoyance, where Bob respected me. And he had clout – he was Assistant Department Head by then – and he got me back into, after three years working for the Forest Service in Oregon, got me back in. Now the first summer I had was my junior year. It was at Rogue River National Forest, on the ranger district where I became permanent. And when we came back, driving back (two of us in a – it would have been a 1953 Oldsmobile) we plotted a course that brought us through Cache Valley. We were driving six hours on, and I ran into two Utah State graduates: one was a summer job person; the other one had graduated three or four years, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  11   �five years ahead of me and was a permanent employee on the district I was in in Oregon. And so I heard about Utah State University and about Ted Daniels stories and everything. And so my buddy was asleep, and I had such low expectations of Utah – when we came over from Tremonton we didn’t take the cutoff, so we went to Brigham City. When I came up Sardine Canyon, I was trying to wake my buddy up. It was in September and there was a little bit of snow up in the high country and the aspen had changed. And I had expected sage brush and salt flats, and I was stunned! You know, we had just come across the Snake River Valley in southern Idaho (which is not nearly as impressive as this mountain range). And then I saw the university and I drove around and I couldn’t wake my buddy up, he was out of it. We, by that time, probably been driving 20 hours from Crater Lake. And then I went up the canyon, it was a beautiful day. I was just astounded at how gorgeous it was. And there was water running in the streets, water running down the canyon. And then when we finally got to Bear Lake, it was in all it’s blue glory, I finally pulled over at a view point and got Bob up – put a cigarette in his mouth to wake him up! BM: [Laughing] JK: And I said, “Look at this!” And so I just thought, “If I ever have a chance to come back to this place, man I am going to take it!” So I think of that, oh, 10-20 times a year. And here I am retiring from Utah State University. But it really had a profound impact on me. I remember when I was back about three or four years later, after I got a permanent job on the Rogue River and then I was back at Penn State. We were sitting around in an Ag-Econ class, after an Ag-Econ class a bunch of went to get a cup of coffee at the lounge in the building and we were talking about great places. And I said, “Bear Lake, Utah.” And there was a student there whose parents were raspberry farmers, who was from Utah State (he was getting his Master’s degree). And I remember how he perked up, because we hadn’t talked about much of anything – he was a pretty quiet guy. “I live there!” You know, yeah. So I fell in love with this part of the country. But I got a Forestry degree also so I could come out west, you know. My class of people never came out west unless you were getting paid; never went to Europe unless you were wearing a military uniform, you know. So I wanted – as much as my imagination could take me, in terms of seeing a part of the world – it was coming to the west. I mean I dreamed about the west from all the hunting magazines. In sixth grade I was fortunate to have a teacher – she never married – in the summer she would come out west (by herself or with a friend) and tour the parks. And she subscribed to Arizona Highways, which in 1954 is colorful and is imaginative and as beautiful a magazine as you could hold in your hands. It was gorgeous! And I would just dream; and if I did my work quick, and early, and as prudently and fast (which I could do when I concentrated), it was a little nook that had cushions on the floor. You could get up and go back there and read what you wanted to read. And she’d always have her magazines there. So that had an influence on me wanting to come out west. And I decided that by, well before I was 12. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  12   �BM: Hmm. And that would be probably original art on those Arizona Highways because color – JK: Well it was color photography, it was incredible. BM: Oh was it? Okay. JK: Oh, for the ‘40s you couldn’t see the color photography. I mean National Geographic was still all black and white. BM: Yeah. JK: You know Saturday Evening Post didn’t have nearly the – Life magazine didn’t have as many. It was great color photography. BM: Hmm. JK: Called Arizona Highways. BM: Absolutely amazing. JK: It was really great. And so that just haunted me, those pictures haunted me. And of course all the sunlight and red rock; such a different country. So I wanted to come out west. And I never considered a job any place else; I was offered a job for Pennsylvania State Forests and that was nice, but that was backup. BM: And you mentioned Rogue River National Forest and you said Crater Lake. Is that the Crater Lake District then? JK: Well it was up next to Crater Lake. The Rogue River goes down stream and then it jumps over to Ashland and places like, yeah Ashland and it jumps around, like a lot of those forests do. The supervisors’ office was Medford; our first son was born in that hospital in Medford. I just loved that forest out there. There were times I felt guilty. I was a bachelor for the first year out there and it was just wonderful. I was the youngest Scout Master in Oregon and we had about 12 loggers’ kids (maybe one or two might have been Forest Service boys). And you know I’d take them out at least three times a month in the summer. We roamed all through those hills and it was just wonderful to work, wonderful to be there. A bit lonely because Kathy and I had been pinned before I went out there. And then she came out for a year. And I took a year’s leave without pay (educational leave). Happily they kept us on medical insurance because we had our second child. We didn’t realize we were pregnant with our second child or we might not have left. But I went back to get a Master’s degree in Outdoor Recreation because I could see that was important. BM: And that was at Penn State? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  13   �JK: Um-hmm. I could see that very few people knew what they were doing, and even less of them seemed to care about the value of recreation. I realized, working on the Rogue River, that I knew lots about silviculture and ecology but very little about people. And that was beginning to fascinate me. Plus my girlfriend and wife was a psychologist and brought out all of her Freud books and everything about psychology – which I never would have read as a forester. But there was not much to read in that little logging town of Prospect, Oregon (there was about 800 people): one bar, one grocery store, and one gas station, and a high school. And I just got interested in that. Then in the ‘50s and ‘60s as far into the social sciences you were allowed to go in natural resources was economics and micro-economics, at that – which is even less involved in people than macro or developmental economics. So I didn’t really want to be an economist, but I was so naïve, I didn’t know that. You know, so I just dutifully followed – and economics is so demanding with all the mathematics and conceptual thinking that you didn’t have much time to wonder whether this was it when you working so hard just to understand it. But by the time I got my PhD I was ready to branch out more. Even though I got my PhD in Economics, I wouldn’t have gone to Virginia Tech (it was called VPI then) unless I trusted my major professor; and we had a verbal agreement that he’d let me take Planning and Sociology and other courses, which he did. BM: Um-hmm. And who was that professor? JK: That was Larry Davis, who I ended up talking him into coming out to an interview at Utah State in my last year and a half of my PhD program. When the dean was hounding him to apply and come out for an interview, he said, “Who in the hell wants to go to Utah?” I said, “Larry! Logan!” I was just passionate in these descriptions in what a great place it was. And then he gets up – we’re in a Rough Rider bar in Washington National Airport – and he walks out into the hall and calls Thad Box at Utah State. And I’m sitting there looking at our two beer mugs going, “You dolt! Here you are talking your major professor into going out to interview. He’s going to leave you! What the hell’s going to happen? This is really poor career planning.” But we loved and respected each other, even when I was a grad student. And our families were very, very close. I’m coming back through here in July to go up to his and his wife’s 50th wedding anniversary at Flathead Lake. Ironically, they live in Spokane, not far from where our son lives. Because our kids were raised together; our kids are as close to their kids as, you know, as either family’s cousins. We spent a lot of time together. Even when a lot of his colleagues and my fellow grad students said, “How do you pull this off?” You know, and it was the old ROTC dichotomous, mechanistic thinking: you don’t shoot and fraternize with the troops, especially if you’re going to send them out to battle – whether it’s with a machine gun or standing up in front of your dissertation committee, you know! [Laughing] You couldn’t mix rationality with feelings. Which is just dumb, and we never bought into that. We’ve always been close and he was a very tough – he had four PhD students and only two of us made it through. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  14   �BM: Whoa. JK: Yeah. That was pretty standard in those days; the survival rate was not that great. BM: So what year are we talking about when you finally finished your PhD? JK: That would’ve been ’69. I was on the faculty there for two years then came out here. BM: You came directly to Utah State from there? JK: Yeah. And I’ve never gone any place else. Now eight of the 38-39 years I’ve been at Utah State, I’ve been out of here; and usually on foreign assignments. So it’s given us an opportunity to go see other parts of the world and come back to your country and your university different than when you left. And seeing the place you’re returning to differently, for better or worse. BM: What are some of those places you visited? JK: Well, the first sabbatical was a year with the New Zealand Forest Service, on a national New Zealand fellowship. Then I got a Fulbright at Trinity College, Dublin; and that was the last year that we were together as a family. Both of our sons were students and Kathy was a research assistant. The university started in 1605 – oh excuse me, 1590. So that’s about 15 years before Jamestown Colony. And it feels that way. It feels like going to school in the Vatican: ancient university, wonderful place. And a wonderful city – in ’83 Ireland was still very much a peasant society. They called it “Dublin town” then, and it felt like a town. (As did Washington D.C. when we first started going there in the ‘60s, before it became so big, fast, impersonal.) But, no it was a wonderful place to be. And after that I went to the Wageningen University in the Netherlands in ’85. Then I did a sabbatical – I was a special assistant to Mike Dombeck with the BLM. Then they asked me to stay another year, so they just bought out my contract. Then we went back to Wageningen for my last sabbatical, for a year. In I think it was something like ’03 or ’05 – something like that. BM: How do you spell that university? JK: W-A-G-E-N-I-N-G-E-N. It’s Wageningen. The “g” is a [makes guttural sound]. Wageningen. BM: And in all these places, as far as a sabbatical, was it primarily economics that you were working on? JK: No, no. I’ve never been a very disciplined economist. I taught it and did it because I had to. But I’ve always been interested in organizational behavior and the ability and inability of traditional cultures, like foresters in the Forest Service, to adapt to changing realities of an urban, post-industrial society. That valued non-market goods, which really made my Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  15   �economics less and less potent. And I never was a good economist. So many economists are so anal and so judgmental, they’re kind of intellectual Jehovah’s, you know. They really talk and think like they know what the hell they’re talking about, which makes me suspect of any group like that. BM: [Laughing] JK: And I didn’t find them very good company, you know. They were so anal, and so sure of themselves, and so narrow and so irrelevant that I just moved in another direction. I used to call myself an economist of sorts, and often introduce myself as a forest economist that’s been in recovery for 12 years or something! [Laughing] I didn’t want to be an economist, but I didn’t know that. And I trusted my elders too damn much. But they gave me their best advice, they were even more ignorant than I was and didn’t realize it. So, no economics just got me started and allowed me to get in a university and earn my keep for the first five years. BM: So go back to that, you mentioned coming to Utah State. Tell us what that was like. And the year again -- JK: Well I came here because this was a multiple-use oriented school. Timber wasn’t king here – look out the window. I mean Utah State could never justify itself on board feet; maybe red meat. And as a result, I think the first outdoor recreation course in the world was taught here; certainly I think the first in the country. They were very multiple-use oriented. I also came to Utah State because they weren’t under the thumb and the influence of an agriculture college, which was so conservative and so reactionary, and so inflexible in their inability to adapt. Plus, they were always the ones out, you know, throwing the stones at the people protesting the war and other things that I believed in. And so when we came here, the College of Natural Resources was the most liberal college on campus, including HASS (Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences) – with such wonderful people like Aldo Leopold’s last grad student, Stokes, which was really ironic for a northern Utah cow college. Of course “liberal” is always relative here. But that was a big attraction. And there were a lot of refugees here from large universities that came to Utah State as professors for the right reasons: they were tired of the universities of Wisconsin’s or Penn States, regardless of their supposed qualities and rankings. You know, this last weekend we graduated one forestry student – we had to limit for every two people that applied to summer camp, we could accept one. We could only hold 30 students and 60 would want to go to summer camp – this was just Forestry. And we were an academy for the agencies; we trained range guys, wildlife biologists and foresters for the federal agencies. And we wouldn’t have thought that, but we behaved very much like a WestPoint. It was a much more liberal WestPoint than most. And they were good people, and it was a good community, good departments, a good college. BM: What departments were there at that time? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  16   �JK: Well, there were three: there was Range, there was Fisheries and Wildlife, and there was Forestry (that soon became Forestry and Outdoor Recreation). BM: And were you responsible for teaching some of those Outdoor Rec courses at that time? JK: Ironically, no. They had a huge Recreation contingent here, which really attracted me. I was an economist and I was a bridge between economics and outdoor recreation for them. I taught Policy and Economics, primarily, and Principles of Forestry because I always taught Principles of Forestry as a social science. And nobody wanted to teach that, plus I could get to the students early in their career, when their minds were open and when they were was still romantic idealists; and give them confidence and context to stay that way throughout their rational education. BM: And Principles of Forestry is like a freshman level course? JK: Freshman or sophomore. BM: Okay. JK: We had five Principles courses: Principles of Wildlife, Forestry, Range, Outdoor Recreation, and Watershed. BM: Okay. JK: And I taught Forestry, which was the biggest. It was a general education course also, because there was enough social scientists on the general education committee to recognize what a broad course it was. I used to fill the business auditorium – which was the biggest auditorium (well maybe there was a bigger one in Old Main). But it was almost 300 students. I’d have a whole flock of TAs. BM: And the breakdown was university-wide? JK: Yeah, but you know, all the forestry students had to take it and a lot of the other natural resource majors took it. And about half were natural resource majors, half were across campus. BM: Wow! That is different. You know, when I think of Principles of Forestry from other places I’ve been at, and in talking with other instructors, it was very much – JK: I always taught it as changing relationships between people and forest ecosystems, and how important culture was in shaping your relationships – as my rural culture in the 1950s was shaping my relationships with traps and hunting. And I was teaching in the ‘70s and some of my students said, “Well you don’t look like a hunter! How could you hunt? Blah, blah, blah. Didn’t it bother you?” “Well yeah, sure!” And also you know, I said, “I was learning life skills. I didn’t know if I’d ever live through between 18 and 24 – my draftable age. I fully expected being able to shoot squirrels might save my life and the life of my buddies, plus Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  17   �keeping the world free from evil.” I couldn’t remember years when there wasn’t a war: we were either finishing one up or talking about the next one. I remember when the Korean War broke out, I counted on my fingers, you know. I was eleven when it broke out, how long would it have to last before I could be drafted into that place. And they just didn’t get that, you know. I mean they thought that they could avoid killing other people in the name of their country – which has its bright side and its blessings of course. But I thought I was going to end up shooting people; and do it efficiently, without letting my emotions get in the way. So if I couldn’t pop a deer, what was I going to do when people were shooting back at me and my friend was screaming because he had his shoulder blown off? So, you know, they didn’t get that. They get it less today. BM: So this Principles course that you taught – that’s a fascinating approach as far as the relationship and not just the products – JK: Well, I got into forestry because of relationships. Even the very pragmatic, technician types in forestry – most of them got into forestry out of romantic relationships. And yet they had that beaten out of us, we couldn’t respect and nourish it, and even elevate it, throughout our education and our professional development. And I tried to get ahead of that. And every principles class I’ve taught has always had a strong element of professionalism woven throughout the whole course; a major tapestry, you know, cross strain and pattern. And I’d say that professionalism is three components: a trilogy of caring, knowing and doing. For the first day of all those Principles classes, including the last two I just graded here a couple of days ago, the first day I’d ask them to define professionalism. I’d ask them, “How many of you in this class plan to be professionals in four, five or six years?” All the hands go up. This is the way I seduce them and co-op them. So I’d say, “Well, you want to be a professional? How many want to be a good professional?” And all the hands go up, you know. And I say, “Well, what’s a good professional? Most of you have met good ones and bad ones, so tell me the characteristics of professionalism.” And they’ll throw about 20 of them at you. 80-85% of them will be characteristics of good people in our culture: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly – you know the Boy Scout characteristics of a good person. But the difference between a good person and a professional is confidence, and that’s in their mind of things they keep mentioning. And I’ll talk to them about, “Well, would you rather have a dentist you like or one that can put fillings in your teeth that don’t hurt and stay there?” Well, alright, you know. “How many of you have had teachers?” (Because that’s a big role model, positive and negative role models that you’ve experienced as professionals.) “How many of you have had teachers that were good guys and gals, but weren’t competent? How many of you have had jerks, but really did teach you something?” Alright, so we’re back and forth on that. And so I say, “Alright, how do you want me to treat you people? As post-high school students or as emerging, young professionals? How many of you want me to treat you as post-high school kids?” [Pause] “How many of you want me to treat you like emerging, young professionals?” You know, some of the hands go right up like this. And I say, “Okay. I’ll do that, I want to do that.” Quite honestly I’d do that even if you told me you didn’t want it. But I said, “You know, this requires more of me and more of you, if you want me to treat you with that respect and with that kind of information. And it has higher expectations than you might otherwise get.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  18   �So within the first week then, we’re defining professionalism as these three characteristics. And I said, you know, “Most of you here want to care more. You’re here to really increase your competency in caring, or knowing, or doing.” You know, and it’s the “knowing” part, the cognitive part, the rational part. And I said, “The ‘doing’ we don’t actually teach you much anymore, with field trips and stuff that I had ad nausea as a kid, as a forestry student. You’re going to get that by summer jobs. And we’re really going to encourage you to do that; it might be uncomfortable, you might not make as much, blah, blah, blah. But you’ve got to do that.” And whether it’s teaching summer schools or camp if you want to be a teacher; if you’re an engineer, getting out and doing various things in engineering or natural resources. Because again, at least half or more of the students aren’t natural resource students. And I said, “Then there’s ‘caring’. We don’t teach you how to care here.” Usually it’s the opposite. But I said, “That’s important. How many of you know what profession you want to be, you know? How many of really care?” We talk about caring and I confirm how important that is. And how, if you’re not careful in all this pursuit for knowing, especially if they’re taught the traditional male rationale of dominating everything – that you could squeeze the caring out of you; don’t let that happen, that’s precious. And I’m telling you and I’m honoring your already moving quite forward. I ask them, “How many of you feel competent as an emerging, young professional?” Most of the hands go up. I said, “Well look, here’s the caring part. You told me you were caring and that’s huge! You’re not recognizing and respecting that. You have to do that, because we will not do that in academia. So this is your personal responsibility, you cherish that. Not only that, that’s going to drive what direction you go and more important than that, it’s going to keep you from burning out, you know. It’s not going to be the ‘knowing’ that’s going to cause you to burn out and give up; it’s going to be the caring and how you manage your feeling relationships and your passion, and your forgiveness and your tolerance. And that’s huge for adaptability as well.” And I wanted to get to them early on that, because by that time I’d realized how important that is. And you get into nursing, police work, teaching, engineering usually for caring. And most of you, if you get into it just for the money – that’s not very romantic in a way – but I don’t find that the case in most people; even accountants can be romantic about it! [Laughing] God knows how, but they seem to. And so I want to recognize that, endorse that and enforce that. And I want them to think broadly and liberally too. So it was a very conscientious attempt for me to teach the courses that nobody wanted to teach: the introductory course. I wanted to subvert – I couldn’t change my college way of thinking, but I could help put students into their class that would make my colleagues think and teach differently. But it’s a long-term process. But I’ve always been in long-term processes, certainly as a forester every tree you plant is a huge act of faith. BM: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  19   �JK: So it’s kind of, you know, that’s why I took those big, general education courses. You got no professional rewards or respect from your colleagues, or university rewards; you did that in spite of the reward system – which romantics tend to do. And I’ve always accepted my romanticism as cherished, personal property. [Stop and start recording.] [Tape 2 of 3: A] BM: Okay, we’re continuing on Tape 2, with side 1, with Jim Kennedy. And he’s just finishing up his discussion on why the general ed courses that he taught at Utah State were so important and influential in terms of his vision and his idea of where he wanted to go with education, and with students, and with colleagues. So go ahead, finish what you were – JK: It was subversive, but first impressions last. I hadn’t been to the graduations for the last couple of years (because I’m usually out of here, down at the ranch by the time graduation). BM: And the ranch is in? JK: Tropic, Utah. BM: Alright. JK: And the dean, you know, put out a memo, “Please come.” Plus this might be the last time I’m on campus in May, so I went. And the valedictorian said that she graduated from high school in California (this is our college valedictorian), and she was so sick and so disillusioned with academia/school was going; she went to Mexico and was going to just be a bartender in Margaritaville for a couple of years. She ran into a friend of hers that was coming up to Utah State, and talked to her into coming up. And she took my introductory course and she said her life changed. And I turned her on to thinking, and feeling, and excitement. And seeing that finding a profession that feeds your soul, as well as your wallet, can be – in our society, the way it’s constructed for better or worse – is an opportunity for joy, and fulfillment and growth; or an opportunity for despair, or in between: just boredom. You’ve got to choose, what do you want to do with your life? And that’s a big decision. She’s gone on to graduate school, so that was kind of cool. BM: And what area of CNR did she graduate in? JK: Shupe escorted her down the isle, so I think it was – you know, I don’t remember. But I mean she was one of just the general ed students that came in and then switched to our college. BM: That’s amazing. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  20   �JK: And that happens, and that’s as close to miracles as you can get. There are lots of theories of education, but that result that I experienced on Saturday, supports my inoculation theory, you know. Where you sneeze on them, like with Swine Flu, or with Jesus of Nazareth breathing on them, “Who’s sins you shall be forgiven,” and they don’t think they’re getting a cold. I remember one time a student walked into my office – this was in the ‘70s – and said, “You son of a bitch. I came out here to ski and I ski every Tuesday and Thursday, and I’ve taken your class on Tuesday and Thursday and I thought I’d cut it.” He said, “You’ve turned me onto school! The damn snow is melting and I haven’t been skiing!” BM: [Laughing] That’s hilarious! JK: He said, “You have really screwed up my life!” He said, “Damn! I am really turned onto this stuff and I’m becoming responsible. And my parents and I don’t know really what happened! [Laughing] JK: That was the plot. I’ve developed a very humble image as myself as an educator. I used to see myself as a lightning rod, but you’re really a seed crystal. You know, the solution has to be charged for you to make major changes in people’s lives. Now, for better or worse, they usually give you too much damn credit because they feel their lives – the valedictorian put it (Sivvy was her last name – I forget), but she said, “Her world pivoted” on that course. So pivotal points is a nice image, you know. For physics or for a ballerina, a pivot point and angles over pose – that’s nice imagery to me. And you know, part of what you teach you are a role model and a life force and all the intellectual crap, especially is so important in economics. You become a positive or negative role model. I used the verb “educate” and “role model” almost like in one breath. Because you ask people – I’ve interviewed a lot of people – five, ten, 15 years out of the contact with teacher. And they never remember the theory, they always remember the person. And as a role model: positive and/or negative, or both. So you know I figured that out pretty early. I’m much more humble. And usually when students write me about what an influence I’ve had in their life – I’ll always say, because I think it’s the truth, not just cause -- I can accept compliments in my old age now (I couldn’t when I was younger). But I said, you know, “You came into my life with all of that and more. And I just happened to enforce it, nurture it, confirm it. And you’re giving me more credit than I deserve, which I’ll take, but I know and I want you to know that I think you’re giving me more credit. And I’d like you to take more credit for yourself.” And I was glad there to be the catalyst. A catalyst I think is accurate and good image. I was glad I was there and I was glad I was the catalyst. But you had to be ready for a catalyst. And when you look at it, a catalyst is usually not much of the weight in a solution; it’s a small amount. But the other mass there ready to receive it. So you know being an educator really requires receptive people. And it might be asking too much of 19 year olds that have so little life experience. They just don’t have anything to make it relevant, the things I’m talking about. But many of them do, and they’ll never be able to come back to me and say I didn’t tell them so. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  21   �BM: There is a tremendous passion when you talk about what you do. And it’s not just because you like the woods, you know, like you hear a lot of foresters talk. You obviously have talked about liking to be outside and how that, you know, with your ADHD and all of that, those kinds of behaviors. But I think that’s something else that is just like a thread through all of what you talked about. There’s that passion for what you do in caring about people and how that comes out in your teaching – over and over again I hear from students how stimulating that is. And that is something that not a lot of us have been exposed to. You know, some of us have had that lucky series of teachers – JK: Yeah. BM: But that’s, I think a very important quality that you put into all the teaching that you’ve done. JK: Well, if you teach natural resources not as sacred stuff, but as human-ecosystem relationships, based on what you know – knowing and caring about parts of ecosystems. If you study natural resources you’ve got to learn about yourself, because it’s relationships. And you’re pivotal in that relationship and so are the people. And you’ve got to be empathetic with other people, because without relationship there are no natural resources, you know. And occasionally when I really want to berate my colleagues here, I tell them you know, “It’s like you’re saying, ‘We’re the college of traditional marriages.’ And for 95% of the course we teach the husband side of marriages. But in the end we give them a course in the wife side of natural resources – the wife side of marriage.’” That’s like saying you teach natural resources here and you give them a human dimension course at the end? And in wildlife, often that human dimension course is law enforcement? Better give them zero, than to give them the relationship of the enforcer, you know. The Conan the Barbarian for right and truth. I said, “No wonder you turn out such dysfunctional, damaged professionals.” You’ve got to focus on relationship and you’ve got to learn about yourself if you see yourself in a relationship. And you’ve got to take ownership for that. If you fear rattlesnakes, you’ve got to take ownership for that, it’s not the rattlesnake’s fault, you know. If you want change, you better change because the rattlesnake isn’t. It’s your perception and response and behavior around them – and that’s true with just about everything. Living in a bureaucracy, living with a crappy provost or whatever, you know. You’ve got to take responsibility for your feelings about that, and manage that. You probably can’t change him or the war, you know. That’s not to say you don’t do something about it; stoicism is only one response, or denial is another that is even less justifiable than stoicism. So I really focus on the relationship part and that you’ve got to take responsibility for that. And I do that in class too. I said, “I expect you to come prepared. You expect me to come prepared, and damn it, you should. I’m a professional, I’m proud of it and I’m going to prove to you I’m a good one. But I expect you to come doing the reading. If you don’t come having done the reading, I’m not going to sound that organized; I’m not going to sound that profound. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that; I’m not! I’ve given you Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  22   �the readings, spoon fed them to you. It takes a half hour – most of you spend that much time getting your hair ready to go out in the world. If you can’t do that, you’re really not an emerging, young professional that has much of a future ahead of him.” So I beg them, I kid them, and I’ll confront them. But I can do that fully justifiably and I get away with that. I grade every one of their exams. They come to see me, not a TA; there is never a true/false or multiple choice questions in it. That really gets their attention because they know that weekend before I give them back their exams, I’ve spent 20-30 hours doing their exams; comments in the margins. That gives credibility normally you don’t get when you don’t deserve it. You really invest yourself and that counts. They hear so much talk: “I love you; I respect you, blah, blah, blah.” Show me the beef, you know. Your involvement with them and your willingness to read – some of them wish you wouldn’t read their questions and make as many comments as you would and just give them an ‘A’. It doesn’t work that way. BM: Well, and you have a vested interest in them. They’re not just [inaudible] sitting in your classroom: they are living, breathing organisms that are going to go out and change the world. JK: Yeah. And it goes back to the non-intellectuals, the farm guys I knew that taught me that, in terms of I want to see it raw. I want to see it and wanting to spend time with me or work me, or do something with me, you know. And get up early in the morning and do it and not whine about the weather or whatever other things you’re using to limit yourself or protect yourself. So that’s a form of vulnerability in a way. BM: Um-hmm. JK: But it’s also a form of accountability that seems to be diminishing, especially in the way we grade them too. BM: What do you mean? JK: The greening of the grading system: everybody gets a three-point anymore. BM: Hmm. So influence wise – you’ve mentioned a few names along the way – who would you recognize as your mentors? JK: Well, Bob McDermott who saved me as an undergraduate student really did. And he loved questioning, he loved debate; he had a sense of humor, he was open-minded, he laughed. He was involved with life in the classroom and in his mind as well as when (I suspect) being out with friends – which maybe some of my other stick-in-the-mud professors were, but I never could sense it. A lot of people that I’ve read, you know. And you know, sometimes it’s a personality defect for a person that’s talked as much about mentoring and being a mentor, and studied mentoring as I have – there have been no real saviors other than Bob McDermott in my undergraduate. And I only had two classes from him: Outdoor Recreation and Range; really Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  23   �the only multiple-use classes I had at Penn State. I was fortunate to be his TA when I back for my Master’s degree too. Larry Davis, my major professor and department head here was a wonderful guy; really bright, intellectual guy. And I think he also saw me as a different personality and thinking type, and he embraced me for that. Because I think I made him better, and he made me better. I think we taught each other values and relationships and all the “knowing” part of the three parts of a professional. BM: Um-hmm. Which two are the essence of a mentorship and relationship. JK: Yeah, sure it is. BM: You’re both giving and sacrificing and pushing each other. JK: Yeah, yup. Yeah, and I had some people in some individual classes like Speech class I stumbled into at Penn State, where the person really forced me to confront my insecurities and help me – I used to have bladder control problems standing up in front of a group. I came across some good, positive role models as an educator, but for every positive role model as an educator I had ten negative ones; but they taught me something. I mean, that didn’t teach me what to be, but it taught me what I didn’t want to be. And they taught it to me solidly; and I was sure I didn’t want to be like that. So that really helps you decide what you want to be. And there was just a whole bunch of people. I’ve been exposed to a lot of people. My father, in some ways, was a negative role model; but he taught me stuff even by that – in terms of relationships with spouses and children – as well as the positive ones. So I’ve always been blessed by the negative ones. Some of the greatest shocks in my life and disappointments in my life. Well Thad Box, when he was dean, turned me down for a full professor the first time I went up. I mean my full support of my committee and my department head. As a result of that, I turned to the agencies that really needed me in the mid-1980s to put their diverse, professional and gender recruits, in their post-NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act]  culture. And we developed short courses where I was – with all the teaching I did on campus, even when I was teach large classes, I often had more contact hours with 30 and 40 year olds in the Forest Service and BLM, in these one week short courses with people like Jack Thomas. And these people are ready to learn. Whoa! You talk about a charge – and that really made firm in my concept and confidence in this catalyst model of being an educator really was convincing there. Plus, going out on a limb and taking the risks to deal with feelings that were involved and the emotional, spiritual elements of their frustrations and successes allowed me to come back and risk doing that with more confidence back on the class here, when students would laugh or say, “Oh crap, what’s that all about?” Because these 19 year olds don’t have that much context. Sometimes it’s like me giving a terrific lecture on retirement planning to 3rd graders over at Edith Bowen [elementary school on USU campus], you know. No matter how good you do it, I mean they just don’t care! They’re not ready for that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  24   �But these 25, 32, 40 year old combat biologists who weren’t being very successful, and getting beat up in the agency and often weren’t taking responsibility – talk about a miracle worker in a week. I mean, we had people come unglued, I mean that just had to really reevaluate their whole context of who they were and what they were doing. Because they were behaving as these kind of Robin Hoods out there, and they weren’t very affective; and they were alienating the community and the resources that they gave a damn about weren’t being adequately protected (as they could and should be). Plus, they were working themselves out of stomach linings, and marriages, and everything. I mean they really needed to reconsider their life as a person and a professional, and as a change agent within the Forest Service. Most of them, of course, didn’t see themselves as change agents, didn’t want to be change agents, didn’t study to be change agents; they wanted to do it, didn’t know how to do it. But you know, NEPA put them there to be change agents, I mean geez! And NEPA put them in there to change the power relationship within the Forest Service. And most of them didn’t think they were into power – which they all were, they were just in the closet, even to themselves. Of course power is your ability to change the world, change things; that’s what power is. And most biologists and these specialists think that power is something that capitalists and generals and people that they don’t admire and care about are in to, like the Forest Supervisor. But just intellectually, and emotionally, and relationship wise to confront them, that was hugely important to me because it made me work hard. And these 30 and 45 year old, frustrated, very powerful, intellectual, caring, romantic, idealistic, hard-working people – they did not tolerate bullshit for long, you know. They would come right at you. And so you had to be relevant and you had to be true. I mean you had to be true and honest with them, even though initially they would rebel against it and didn’t like it. And I was; and the team I put together was. You know I just threw away the plaque that the Forest Service gave me for doing that – put it in the trash can. You know, it’s just a piece of wood and brass. But you know [inaudible], I’ve got the memories. BM: Right. JK: But kids aren’t going to experience it. It was signed by – Max Peterson signed it. Anyhow, I’ve always seen myself as a change agent and a revolutionary, but I’ve done it indirectly, like planting trees and things. I plant seeds and stand back and watch them grow. But that was really powerful. You could see impact and people would, you know, tell you how you changed their life. But the only requirement was we wouldn’t take anybody into that short course unless they had worked for a year (or preferably three). We wanted them to really be frustrated and be experienced and have context, and be ready to take ownership for their successes and their failure and frustrations. And it did. It worked, it worked and it was great. And it allowed me to come back and teach in a different way on campus. And even 19 year olds, that I wouldn’t have had the courage to do, given the criticism and lack of respect for Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  25   �that from my colleagues. And it annoyed a lot of the undergraduates. If I show you my bio, you know, my true bio – I describe myself as “Coyote the Trickster.” And my students know that. Three or four times in a lecture I’ll say, “Okay, I’m going to be playing Coyote with you.” Which means it’s not on the exam and I’m going to be confrontive and I’m going to be playful, and I’m going to be flipping things on them. I’m going to flip them; I’ll lead them down a path and wham! I’ll t-bone them with this idea, without airbags and they know it. So I often tell them, “Hold on to your seat now, I’m going to play Coyote with you.” BM: [Laughing] JK: And so I think that’s really important. I think one of the most important things you can give people in an era of complexity and change (like our world is), is haunting metaphors. Never let them be comfortable with what they know – which was the absolute opposite the way I was educated, you know. This is it, this is truth, and it’s going to stay that way forever, and it’s on the exam. But to give them haunting, relevant metaphors I think is great. And one of the reasons when I think back I don’t see any critical mentors, most of the things that broke me free to think were often novels and experiences in my past that haunted me. BM: Name some novels. JK: Oh, god! Everything from The Heart of Darkness to plays like Ibsen’s play An Enemy of the People. I mean things that were really haunting. Well actually, Miller’s re-writing (or getting ready for the stage) of Ibsen’s Enemy of the People is a lot easier: it’s like Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov without the second coming part; or Bernard Shaw’s Superman without when they go to Hades. All of those things haunted me and I think about them over and over again. And all of a sudden the relevance to me and my profession just leap out at me. So I’ve got a lot of kindred spirits that are dead and some that are alive as well. And I think that’s critical for a professional. And to feel that you can speak to the dead and the dead can speak to you, I think is a powerful, spiritual connection; and humbling. So I always was a reader and still am. But good novels – I’m looking forward to reading everything Joseph Conrad wrote. Lord Jim is a perfect example of a romantic, written beautifully by a person who English wasn’t his first language: he was Polish. And he did Heart of Darkness, which is – ah! You never recover from reading that little book. Have you ever read The Heart of Darkness? BM: I haven’t. JK: Joseph Conrad. BM: Hm-mm. JK: You’ll never get over it. Apocalypse Now [film] was based on that and actually the making of Apocalypse Now,  if you’re a movie person, rent it. It’s called “The Heart of Darkness” [Hearts of Darkness: a Filmmaker's Apocalypse].  Coppola’s wife put it together while they were making it. The making of the film – they were all drugged and in that tropical Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  26   �rainforest. It’s no wonder that creepy, haunting, operatic movie came out. And it is operatic: full of tragedy, and ambiguity, and uncertainty, and blurry edges. It’s an impressionist piece rather than, you know, an etching. So those things really affected the way I think and feel. BM: How are you thinking on the eve of your retirement? JK: Well, you know, it’s just something that’s always been in my job description. I knew it was coming, I’m glad I lived long enough to do it and I still have some health and opportunity ahead of me. And I’m focusing mostly on being. When we go down to the ranch, we just get absorbed by that place. It owns us as much as we own it. And Kathy and I like each other’s company and we’ve been nomads with all of our sabbaticals. And so we trust our ability to get along together and manage and live in a place and live well. We’ve always done that. So we’re much less uncertain than some of our colleagues are. And people keep asking us what I’m going to do. And that’s just the wrong question, you know. I’m focusing on being. I’ve been doing a lot, and I’ve accomplished a lot. But just being is different than that. And so often the tragedy of retirement is so many people have their whole self-identity and life built around “doing” that they don’t know how to “be.” And once you do that, take away the doing that they’re comfortable with, their lives fall apart. So we’ve got a beautiful place to go be. And after almost 50 years of marriage we still like waking up together, so that’s important too. BM: Um-hmm, it is. JK: And that’s the most annoying question I get asked in my life is, “What do you do down there?” Well, they’re already off on the wrong footstep if that’s the way they frame the verb, frame the question! BM: [Laughing] Right, right. JK: A lot of times I’ll make up stuff just to give them an answer they’re comfortable with. Because when you start talking about being together, after three minutes their eyes glass over; they just don’t get it or they’re not interested. “What? You sit in bed for two hours and drink coffee and tea and talk?” “Yeah.” BM: Well having lost the art of relaxation and just that chance to just – JK: Yeah. Well the land will absorb you, that’s part of the relationship: you’ve got to let the land talk to you as much as you talk to it. And I don’t carry a weapon around anymore when I go out in the woods. And when I see deer – I remember the first time I saw a big buck when I watched it. And after watching it disappear, realize for the first time ever I didn’t have a cross-hair on my pupil. You know, I was always watching the deer where I would shoot it. BM: Sure. JK: I was focusing exactly on that spot. Even when I had no intention of shooting it and had no means to, or never mind the desire. So that was kind of liberating. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  27   �BM: So one of the questions on this long list of questions that is here – JK: We can’t go too much longer. BM: Oh my goodness! Yeah. JK: Because it’s 3:20 already. BM: Yeah, okay. Let’s finish this side of the tape and then we’ll stop for now, or stop for this afternoon. You know, in looking at – this is just so rich with relationships with people, with students, with colleagues, with mentors or people who you admire that aren’t even alive or maybe you’ve never met. You know, part of this project is looking at that relationship with the place called Logan Canyon (right out here). JK: Um-hmm. BM: And I wonder if you would just share a few of those memories before we sign off for today. JK: With Logan Canyon? BM: Um-hmm. JK: The first relationship I have with Logan Canyon was that surprising afternoon I drove through here. Tired and boy, it just woke me right up. I never forgot it, and I was just astounded. Again, any kind of satisfaction or response to any kind of event is heavily influenced by our expectations. And as I qualify that, my expectations were so low, the shock was magnified. BM: You mentioned sage brush, and – JK: Yeah. I mean I was really impressed with Crater Lake, but I kind of knew it was going to be spectacular. BM: Right. JK: Still took my breath away when I first looked at it. But reading the diary of Pinchot’s front man who went up here in 1895 – what was his name? Copies of his diaries are in the Special Collections. Have you read them? BM: Uh, no. JK: Shame on you! You have got to read that! In fact, there’s one great section he says, he’s up there and he says, “There’s no trees of value up on the mountain, it’s just all aspen.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  28   �BM: Oh! JK: Now we’re trying to get it back and worried about aspen coming back. Oh man! I used to have that as part of my Principles of Forestry course. And he’s got articles written about it, and people have written – and the Special Collections librarian is a really neat guy. BM: Is that Brad? JK: Brad, yeah. BM: Um-hmm. JK: He’ll know who I’m talking about. BM: Okay. JK: He was working for the Forest Service, he was looking at this public land before it became National Forest; you read his description of Logan too on a weekend, it’s kind of cool. He wasn’t from the local culture. But people like that – I never liked history in high school, but it was never about people and relationships: it was about dates, and deaths, and wars and stuff like that. So you know, that’s a wonderful opportunity to walk in his footprints up through this canyon that looked a bit like “All Quiet on the Western Front.” It had all been lawned off and grazed. It literally looked more beat up than it does now. And I bet you Thad Box said that when he first saw Logan Canyon about 20 years before I did. You said you were interviewing Thad. You know, you look up there now and it’s probably in better much ecological condition than it was 100 years ago. BM: Um-hmm. JK: I first started just fishing it. But we’d take the kids up there; we’d go cross-country skiing. We’d use Green Canyon and we’d go up here and ski after school, on real quick day trips after work was done. We’d tube down it – the canal comes right out at the back of our property. We’d tube down it in the summer 50 times – day and night. Sometimes 11 o’clock at night you’d come back, or 10 o’clock at night you’d come back from a party and the kids would be watching television; it would be a full moon and it would be July and they’d say, “Let’s go tubing!” “Oh man! Just came back from a party, it’s been a tough. . .” “Come on Dad!” “Oh, what the hell!” And up we’d go. Kathy would drop us off. BM: [Laughing] And you’d come down in the dark? JK: Oh yeah. But you know the dark here is so light. From back east, I never could understand how nocturnal animals made it. Out west, you could see – I could be a nocturnal predator, damn near, most of the days of the month! But mostly it was fishing, and cross-country skiing it. We would go up to Bear Lake and come over and we’d come back down Mink Creek, come back down, you know, down through the next – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  29   �BM: Emigration Canyon? JK: Emigration Canyon, yup. BM: Yup. JK: That’s a wonderful loop. We’d do that every season. And my most intimate relationship with the canyon in a way, was when I was the first person to run summer camp after the originals: Ted Daniels and Ray Moore ran it all through World War, you know, through the ‘30s and World War II. And I took it over from them in, probably about 1970 maybe, something like that. And I was the first, you know, guy to do that. I mean the first person to do that; just when women were starting to come in up there. And I’d ride my motorcycle – [Stop and start recording.] [Tape 2 of 3: B] BM: Tape 2, side 2 and we’re continuing with Logan Canyon. You’re on your motorcycle. JK: Well, you know, just driving up through there on a motorcycle at 6 o’clock in the morning. So you’d get up, you’d eat and finish eating breakfast by 7:30 so I could get some leftover eggs and a cup of coffee by the time I got up there. Early in the morning, quiet, nothing there – ah! It was gorgeous with a motorcycle. But you know, most of my memories of course with summer camp are running that old facility and dealing with young people and all the things that went with it. BM: Like what? JK: Oh, you know, just feeding them and manage them, and dealing with the issues. You know the first year I was in charge of it – they always allowed dogs up there. We stopped that about the second year I was in charge of that because the kids were less responsible with everything, including their pets. And one of the first Forestry students had became pregnant and had a baby without a husband here, and she came to me and said, “I’d like to come to summer camp.” And I said, “Well sure, you have to.” And she said, “But I don’t have a babysitter and I’m breastfeeding my child. Could I bring my baby to camp?” And in those things you should go check with the department head and go check with the dean I guess. But it was just a sense of justice that just hit me, from mostly reading and other things. And of course being raised as a shanny Irishman too, we always focused on justice and we were treated unfairly, you know. But anyhow, it occurred to me – I was going to go check with the leadership – and I thought, “Wait a minute. If we allow people to bring dogs there, how could we ever say ‘No?’ I mean I don’t have to go listen to these people. And the fact that Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  30   �they told me to qualify it or say ‘No.’ I resented and resisted. And they might tell me that and I’d have to enforce that stupid decision.” So I said, “Certainly you can do that.” Well, when the word got out, everyone was you know, upset. And even some of the students, well. That baby was passed around and in the first week it didn’t know who it’s parent was, you know. It was part of the group. When she had to do stuff there was always a willing hand to put that little baby in their backpack or underneath their jacket. We’d take it out in the snow and everything. And it really had an influence on the culture, as did women. BM: How so? JK: Well, I mean it made us more human. When male cultures dominated, there was always a goat. I mean males I think were so insecure they had to put a benchmark, like a brass bench marker to know what the elevation was, so they could feel taller. And with the women up there – I remember, this was the first year – I could see the goat that they picked out within a day or two. And I mentioned it – there were three very powerful women there – and I mentioned it and I was going to have to intervene. And one of them, God bless her (and I can’t remember her name) – when one of the alpha males was putting this kid down, she said, “What needs are being fulfilled when you put another human being down like that? When you hurt another person, how does that make you feel good?” “Well, I’m not hurting him” [Inaudible] You little punk, you know, you little shit. “Yeah, yeah I am.” “Ah, I’m not really. Well I don’t really mean to hurt him.” She just – and then he got red and flustered. And he made such a fool of himself that [snap], the sport was off! BM: Yeah. JK: I mean that really, that really hit me. And I just looked at her and she looked at me, and I had such respect for that woman. And by having a baby there and I remember all the concern when we were going to bring women up to camp. You know, there was, “Oh! How are we going to pee in the woods together?” Crap, you know that stuff! BM: [Laughing] JK: You know it was so absurd to have a bunch of PhDs sitting around the damn table, talking about such irrelevant, peripheral rubbish! “Well we won’t get to tell jokes together. What if we’ve got to fart around girls?” You know that kind of a thing. [Laughing] This was really cute, you’ll appreciate this. And I don’t even mind if it’s on tape. We got there and we had a huge snow storm. In fact, you can still see mature aspen trees that bent over from getting about 16 inches of wet snow. And this was in the quarter system, so this would have been about the 10th of June. It was huge! And most of the young people didn’t bring adequate footwear. So it was a serious storm and all the trees were bent over. And we couldn’t even drive out – you know we’re not that far off the highway. The highway crews weren’t ready for it, everything was shut down. We’re eating breakfast and they’re wading through snow (this is the first week of class), “Well, we’re not going to go out are we Prof?” “Certainly we are! We’ve got everyday scheduled, you’re going out. What do you think is Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  31   �going to happen when you’re working in the field? Certainly you’re going to do that.” “Well, we don’t have shoes.” You know, I had more wool socks, I think, then anybody. So we started sharing socks. We took all the bread out and used bread bags. I said, “You put that underneath your sneakers. You mean you came up here without boots? You know, I’m sorry. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for you. We’re not going to put you where your life’s at risk, and we’re not going to let your feet freeze off, but they’re going to be bloody cold. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that.” “Well, you were such a nice guy in Principles class.” “Well, this is a different learning experience.” So all of that. And about two or three days later when we had a chance to go down and get boots, there was still snow as we’re going up to do our first day of cruising. And the guys were trying to tell jokes and were on the edge and with caution. And it was awkward, it was kind of cute. And walking up through the snow – we drove in open trucks then. So we drive up and someone was telling jokes (I don’t remember that part). But I remember it was within the first week or ten days and they were trying to learn how to deal with women colleagues (as we were) with women students. And we’re walking up deep in snow, and one of the women tripped up in the front and said, “How is getting screwed by a Forester like spring snow?” And everyone freezes, and then no comment. She said, “Well you can always count on it being sloppy, but you never know how many inches you get, or how long it’s going to last!” BM: [Laughing] JK: Well, I went crazy. I just started laughing, my knees buckled. The guys thought they had to laugh – I mean that really hit them where it hurt. [Laughing] The guys thought they had to laugh, but it sounded like rusty plumbing. You can hear them all going [imitates forced laughter]. They weren’t having fun at all. And I just laughed. And then I felt badly because, you know I was embarrassing the guys too much. But after that – I mean all the ice got broken, you know. And it just made better people out of everybody. And a lot of the stereotypical bullshit got knocked, you know, which was a huge learning experience for everybody. But it was exactly the learning experience they needed to go work in a post-NEPA culture in the agencies. And most of all professors weren’t getting that education; they were stuck in the old, traditional molds. And they didn’t expose themselves to the agencies. By me being turned down as a full professor, my reference group shifted. Where what the chief of the Forest Service and a half a dozen Forest Supervisors I respected, or a colleague that I was teaching short courses with (like Jack Ward Thomas) – what they thought of Jim Kennedy as a person, professional meant so much more than Thad Box (or even my department head) thought. And so that really liberated me from this place, where I could do what I wanted to do for better reasons. BM: Um-hmm. JK: And it was about that time when I started to recognize the validity and empowerment of the puppet model, you know. I never liked people calling me “puppets” for reading the Bible, or Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  32   �calling me a “sheep” you know. I was anything but a “sheep,” damn it. And a “puppet?” No, by god, I was in charge! Nobody was a puppet master to me. But when Thad really messed up my life for a couple of weeks after he rejected me as a full professor, I was obviously a puppet and he had strings. And my only way of dealing with that was to let go of the damn things. You know, the only way a puppet master has any control over you is you hold on to the other end of the string. You let go of the string, whew! You know, he’s just flipping a piece of string in space, which isn’t very satisfying to puppet masters. And so I decided I was a puppet and a lot of strings were up there, and too many of them I was holding on to and I didn’t have to do that. But I still recognized I needed respect, and I still recognized I needed self-respect. But I just went other places to gain that, more than I did in the past. So I became much more annoyingly independent of this group, than I had my first 20 years here. But it allowed me to go into the agencies and really do some powerful work and pivotal work. You know, you have an impact on a student you’ve got to wait a long time. When you have an impact on a frustrated professional, six years in the Forest Service (and half of them were women), you know you can see an immediate response. And a lot of the reasons the women were having trouble was they were blaming too much of their frustration and their failure on their gender. Which, you know, wasn’t necessarily it at all. I didn’t fit into the Forest Service as an early professional. And if I was a woman I’d have used that to blame too. I’m sure I would have. But having them consider that maybe the reasons they’re not fitting in and not being effective as a role model, and being perceived as an ugly American in a foreign culture like the Forest Service – as they would be if they were in Zambia – behaving like a goddess that knew what was good for wildlife and was going to bulldoze over anyone that she could to do god’s work, and do it right and get all the credit herself. And that just may be why you’re failing. It’s just the way you’re trying to execute; and the image you need to make yourself feel comfortable as a rebel, as someone that confronts people. And when people don’t respond to you, it’s obviously because they don’t care or know enough to be as good as you, you know. Which is a great escape clause – then you don’t have to deal with your consequences (which isn’t very mature and very effective in the long term). All sorts of issues like that we had to deal with. Which were hard to say, and really hard to receive. But boy, I’ll tell you, unlike teaching undergraduates – you always got contact. And I used to fear as a young educator, negative contact with me: anger, rejection, fury. I did not seek that out, but that’s contact. That’s intimacy. And unlike the students sleeping in class, or not showing up, or looking up at the ceiling, or not getting it – just taking notes just to get a grade. And so I no longer felt fear of that. Because in order to do your job in a week with these frustrated, inter-disciplinary professionals, you had to make contact quickly. And they were so primed you could hardly avoid it even if you wanted to. And some of the people that we first brought in tried to avoid it because they didn’t know how they could handle that, they didn’t want to disturb people. But by Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, even the tougher ones just often came around to take personal responsibility for what they were doing; much more so than they were. And to be more forgiving of themselves, as well as the system, and not be blaming – exploiting blame rather than keeping it where it belongs. And Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  33   �even if it doesn’t belong with you, even if you’re treated shabbily – like you could probably consider you were with what you’ve put into environmental education with your job. The only way you can empower yourself is your response to that. BM: Um-hmm. JK: The decision has been made, regardless of the jerk or the situation. The only way you can come out of that whole and more whole, is to decide on your best responses to that. To keep you going and to be the person and professional you want to be. BM: Um-hmm. And it makes you reach further. It makes you reach further than what you think you have. I’m sure the students felt the same way with forestry camp too. That you know, we’re being embarrassed here but it makes you look inside and say, “What do I have and how do I respond to this? And how do I be the better person?” That metaphor of the puppet strings – that’s perfect. We just hang on to those and – JK: Yeah, it’s amazing, especially when you look at the data. For example, we were getting – in those days inflation was 5%. If you did well, everybody got a 2% raise. Then you had 1% to divide up for performance, which usually came out to maybe another 2-3% more salary a year. God! Even if you’re in the money, that’s such chicken feed. When I was being a consultant, I was making three times as much as a raise in a week; which was really helpful financially because both of our kids didn’t stay in Utah. One was at Whitman College (which was really expensive) and one was at Georgetown. So it helped us put both kids through really expensive schools. And that really was a test for me, as a human being as well as a professional, to deal with those very human problems and not pander to them; to just be tough love. But they always knew that we cared about them and we cared about the Forest Service. You know, Jack was part of the Forest Service and I, in my heart, never left the Forest Service and never left the National Forest (which I cherish more than the agency that’s the steward in this point in time). So that failure was really one of the best blessings I ever had. Now, as it worked out Thad took a retirement buyout, Joe Chapman became our dean and he was on my committee who recommended that I be a full professor. So the first months of his reign, he came and said, “I want you to go up for full professor.” And this was a year after I was turned down.” I said, “I’m too busy. Besides, you know what Joe? I don’t give a damn about it that much.” [Laughing] “I don’t care if I ever have a full professor.” You know, in those days you never got a raise for it. There was no money. And the year that I became a full professor, there were no raises at the university – so I got zero! In fact, I said, “I’m going to turn it down and go for it again next year.” “You can’t do that. Once they give it to you that’s it!” But anyhow, I mean all that stuff was really important at the time, but it’s like being stood up for the Junior Prom: at the time it’s really a serious issue! [Laughing] But you know, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  34   �BM: within a few months or a few years it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. And now it’s just kind of funny. Yeah. Well they say, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” JK: Yeah, that’s Nietzsche. That can be taken too much. BM: Right, right. JK: Yeah, and everything that Nietzsche says I take with a grain of – I always take with qualifications. He was twisted in a way; real bright, brilliant. Anyhow, that’s some of my summer camp stories and these young professionals. Plus the other thing (issues) is just dealing with if they were going to be drinking and managing damage control. You know? “I don’t want anybody driving! I am serious! I’ll be all over you if I find out a bunch of you went out, you know, got half drunk here and then went up without a designated driver. I’ll be the damn designated driver, but I do not – do you understand that? I mean I’m going to be in your face, I’m going to beat you over the head with a stick when you’re hung over! I am never going to trust you again, do you got that?” I mean I was just really clear. [Laughing] So that the kind of stuff that you just did not want tragedy. And it could easily happen with that much youth, testosterone and death machines around. But once they got that, and it was legitimate, they knew that was also an expression of caring. Okay, I’ll do a little bit more of this some time this week, but my voice is running out on me. BM: We’ll stop for today. JK: It’s the allergies too. BM: Thank you so much. JK: Do you often have to break in these interviews? BM: No, not too often. Okay, so we’re going to finish your interview today with the first part of Jim Kennedy. We’ll come back later on this week. Thank you, Jim, for meeting with us. [End tape 2: B; Begin Tape 3: A] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  35   �BM: Okay, we’re here with Jim Kennedy. We’re doing our second day of our interview on Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project. I’m Barbara Middleton and it is Tuesday, May 5th. We’re here again on the campus of Utah State University. Continuing onto tape 3, side 1. Jim. JK: Okay. I guess we’re starting with religion and spirituality, although I never separated religion and spirituality early in life. I was raised in a very, very religious family. And I’m still God haunted. And probably if I had to classify myself as anything I’m a “Jack Catholic.” And that’s out of some good experiences I had. I consider all religions human creations, with people with feet of clay: both those who create it and those who continue it. And so I never ask for perfection in a religion of anyone I knew – my neighbors or myself. My grandmother and my mother in my parochial school years had an influence on me. In terms of my relationship to the land, a lot of the religion training I got in the classroom, and being required to go to confession once a week when you were seven years old (and you almost had to make up sins just to have an interesting conversation with the priest). Those were kind of rituals and a lot of times I couldn’t find spirituality there. Yet, I could come out of Mass in the spring and hear honeybees up in a fresh, blooming apple tree and just take off my good clothes and scamper up there and lay in the branches covered with white and pink and odors and bees and sunlight – and you know you just melt all the barriers on your heart and in your mind. And you could become part of something much bigger and much more wonderful than yourself. So in some ways, searching for spirituality and religion, and often being disappointed (although not always, but when I was younger, pretty much most of the time), it had me look elsewhere for spirituality. And I usually almost always found it in nature and solitude usually – not activity. And out in nature was one of the few places I could slow down and was captured and interested enough with my ADHD qualities, to find spirituality there. My first considerations as professions, as a young boy in Philadelphia, were three Ps. They were to be: a policeman, a politician or priest. And I had good role models in all of them; good, honest, caring people who had a sense of social service and a sense of self bigger than who they were, and sense of purpose. So I never had any bad run-ins with any negative role models in those areas. More with teachers and neighbors and people like that. And I also stay in my current religion, mainly out of a sense of loyalty. I’m still a Democrat, I’m still a Catholic, but I’m not a baby boomer. My two brothers and my sisters are baby boomers; they’ve all become Episcopalians and Republicans and have become embarrassing wealthy – seriously wealthy. I’m talking tens of millions of dollars. We were all upwardly mobile I guess, and climbing. I just never wanted the traditional – all the professions I really (other than my initial kind of pressure to consider being a dentist), I never was attracted to status or money or fancy cars or fancy clothes or power – in a sense of power in an organization. I wanted power to change the world when it came to the way we used and abused the land. And I wanted some power and influence over my own life too. I wanted to be, what you call today, empowered. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  36   �But it saddens me that my siblings have betrayed their history. And I don’t know what they’re going to, but I’m certainly not going to turn my back on a religion that my ancestors have fought and died for for hundreds of years. To do a makeover on myself, or be more presentable to my peer group I’m trying to impress. And you know, I wouldn’t change my political party either. My grandfather had scars all over his body from being beaten with bicycle chains with fish hooks in them when he was a labor union organizer. And so that also ties with my orientation with policy. Although I worked at the policy level, being a special assistant to the director of the BLM, and being very close friends and respected by a couple of the Forest Service chiefs – I never was comfortable or impressed or felt in place on top of Mount Olympus in Washington, or at the regional level in Portland, or down in Ogden with the Forest Service. I always liked being with the working class, you know. The foresters, the wildlife biologists, the technicians; they’ve always been my identification group, my peer group. That’s where life and interest in action occurred. So if anything, I switched from being an economist to someone interested in organizational dynamics, organizational behavior, organizational change. Although, you can’t put that on your letter head; no one gets it. You know, if you say, “administration,” that immediately puts you down with the secretaries. I don’t mind being there with status, but it’s just plum inaccurate. So I always would put “policy” there because I didn’t – it would just keep them from asking me embarrassing, annoying questions. And “policy and economics” – people would salute that and just let you be yourself. BM: So at the time you’re talking about, with the BLM, again – give us the date. JK: That was in the first Clinton administration. BM: Okay. JK: I think it was – I’ll have to check for sure. But I know it was the year before the Republican takeover of Congress. When that happened, the BLM was so rattled. And ironically, the Congressman Hansen was the new head of the Natural Resources Committee in the House. And he and I got along okay; I mean I liked him as a person. I would have even been happy to have him as a grandfather. As a policy person values – his views on our values, how we should think about the value and manage of public lands was very much opposed to mine. But Mike Dombeck, the director of the BLM then, asked me to please stay on a year. So like a baseball player or something, USU let them buy out my contract and kept me there to pitch hit for them. Mainly because I was trustworthy and Jack Ward Thomas and Mike Dombeck liked and respected me, and I could run back and forth between Interior and the Ag building and we could cut a lot of deals, and they could do it with confidence. They could come up with an agreement, and they’d just turn to me and whoever was representing the Forest Service and said, “Well we’ll let Kennedy and Barb, you know, work out the details.” And you and I, for example, would get together and work out a memo. I never tried to get a penny for them for research or anything special, and they knew that. So they knew I wasn’t trying to get into their pocket or exploit the influence and friendship we had together. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  37   �But even doing that with the BLM, a lot of times I was out in the field doing stuff, if I could do it. I mean I would look for reasons to get out and work with universities that were historic, black colleges they were working in partnerships with to try to diversify their culture, issues. BM: In the natural resources area? JK: Yeah. BM: Okay. JK: Well, yeah. But they were geology, but even engineers (any skills the Forest Service could use) public affairs, for example. It’s much easier to find an African-American interested in public affairs in eastern shore Maryland, than one of the traditional black colleges there. Queen Ann: Queen Ann of Maryland or Queen Ann of Virginia? But they were interested in recruiting people and I was an academic and had respect. And so I would go do a lot of work for them in that way, just to keep in touch with what was going on out there. BM: And did you see that change in the time from then until now? JK: Well it was changing then. My immediate supervisor was the assistant director for the BLM – it was a black, woman, wildlife biologist. Really tough as nails, Brooklyn gal, that I loved and respected. And she would cringe at using those words. She was a street fighter; although she had a good heart, but she didn’t like herself very much. She tried to define herself by what she was doing, and that’s pretty hollow. She loved film and didn’t like going out to film by herself as much, or going out to eat afterwards alone – and she was a loner. And my wife was taking care of her father and going up to New Jersey a lot. It was kind of spooky and some people got the wrong idea, but Denise never came across that we’d be involved! [Laughing] And anyway, it would insult the promises we made to people that mattered, but we spent quite a bit of evenings out together having fun and talking about life (as much as she would do that). So yeah, I would live a long time at Utah State University before I work for a black wildlife biologist woman. BM: Right. So in looking in your role; I’m trying to understand that a little bit more so that people that are listening to this get a feel for when you go back to Washington and you are doing some of these special assignments. That sounds fascinating to me to be able to go out and look at the kinds of young people that are coming through the program and encourage people from other diverse cultures, religions, races, whatever; to be able to come to the field. What do you say to them? How do you attract them to something like natural resources? JK: Well, you try to find out number one, if they have a passion about being a professional, or if they’re just in the rank and privileged and other things like that – then they want to be a lawyer, or business person. And usually you can’t capture them because their needs are Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  38   �different and they probably wouldn’t be very good if I did capture them. But people that want to make a difference, that have some pioneering spirit, that have some attachment to the land. But an awful lot of African-Americans see the land as the enemy; that kept them in chains as much as any political, social or cultural stuff. You know, working in the swamps, logging under miserable, dangerous conditions, working in the mills, working in the mines, working in the fields. BM: Yep. JK: I have fond memories about my attachment to the land, but we kind of own some of the land, or a few people that I knew and cared about did own the land; but it was a big difference. And it was always a round-trip ticket: if I didn’t like being abused, or come football season or school, I’d be out of there. And they didn’t have that option. So that was a hard sell. That was really a hard sell with blacks, especially in the southeast. And some of them wanted to get out of urban areas, and you could sell them on that. But I looked for a spark of professionalism and wanting to make a difference. And those who want to entertain a surprising option that they hadn’t really thought about. And a lot of the people I talked to were single moms in those traditional, black colleges. And you could talk about the security that we get and the support that they wouldn’t find in industry. And so I was actively recruiting them, as well as talking to the people who – when I’d leave would hopefully continue or increase that activity. BM: Were there programs actually growing at that time in D.C. with these agencies? JK: Oh yeah. Like Haskell Indian School [Haskell Indian Nations University] in Kansas. And they had some formal, signed partnerships, and some Hispanic schools in New Mexico – heavily populated Hispanic schools. BM: And you were also seeing then, the nature of the culture in Washington changing with the personnel that were hired. You mentioned Denise, the black wildlife biologist. What other kinds of entities within the Forest Service were seeing more diversity? JK: Well, I mean initially it was at the entry level and that was part of the problem. The cultural diversity was gender, ethnic and professional. That’s how I got involved with the wildlife fisheries biologists in the Forest Service because in the ‘70s when they were starting to hire women (well NEPA forced them into hiring professional diversity). Presidential proclamations motivated them to hire gender diversity and ethnic diversity. And often the only jobs that were available then were not more foresters it was all of a sudden they needed to hire a lot of wildlife/fisheries biologists. And so without intention and without recognizing the consequences, they got double whammies: they would hire a black woman or Hispanic woman biologist, and they’d score triple points, like in Scrabble. However, that was three often stress points with a person with triple uniqueness trying to fit into the agency, especially moving the line by being successful on the ground. They were change agents in three ways; and most had the attitudes and skills, or the expectations of that, and they were just thrown into the whirlwind and didn’t know it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  39   �And many of the line officers and their peers wouldn’t have hired a woman, an ethnic or professional diversity, if they weren’t forced to. And NEPA and all those legislations were change agent legislations; they were social experiments. And these poor people didn’t know that they were being dropped into an organization. They thought they were going to go out and count beaver or birds or something and wear hip boots for the ten years and shocking trout. And then when they found threatened and endangered species, their peers would congratulate them for completely changing their professional lives by making it much more complex, and slowing down projects. And they didn’t know how – they didn’t want to do it. They didn’t want to be political; they didn’t want to be change agents. They didn’t have the right table manners to do it; they had lousy expectations. So before I went to Washington, mostly as a carry on for my passion as an educator, I started to look around and the Forest Service (especially line officers at the Forest Supervisors and Regional Forester level) by the mid-late ‘70s were seeing this dropout rate. And these young people were having such conflict fitting in and being effective in the Forest Service; they were like very unsuccessful Peace Corps workers. BM: Stop for one second. I’m concerned about this tape. [Stop and start recording] We’re fine. JK: So I was with a Regional Forester. We used to have a lot of connection. Of course many of the people down in the Ogden Region 4 office were USU grads. So once a year we would have a banquet down in Ogden. (Now this is a quick, 15-20 years ago.) I was down there with a Regional Forester and he was talking about all the new people they were getting: hiring more people with Master’s degrees, having more science in the Forest Service. And he also had been talking about the difficulty it was for them to hire and keep good women and biologists really (many of which came from Utah State University). And I said, “Well you know, you have science, your science has improved. Let’s take recreation for example, when I left you guys you were not applying science to recreation; now you’ve got some of the best recreation researchers on the planet in the Forest Service. You are doing all sorts of things. But you know much more about the hikers in the high Uintas than you know about how and why young people come work for the Forest Service in these new ‘-ologist’, non-traditional positions, how and why they are not effective, how and why they stay or leave.” BM: Um-hmm. JK: I said, “You’re not doing any research on that, it’s a folk art. And so you don’t have a chance until you start finding out how and why that system’s failing. And so don’t tell me you’re scientific there.” And I said, “And really, does it mean you care more about high Uinta hikers than you do your own people?” BM: So what was their response? JK: Well you know, we were having beer and having a lot of fun. And he said, “You know, you’ve got a point there.” And something else came up and I brought it up again, and he Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  40   �turned – one of those serendipitous things – and he turned to his administrative officer and said, “Can you give a couple thousand bucks to Kennedy so he can do some research and we can shut him up?” And he said, “Yeah, I think we could do that.” So I immediately got back and called Region 6 in Oregon (I had a contact there), and said, “How about if we compare foresters with your entry-level, one to three years in permanent positions, your entry-level foresters, range cons, and wildlife biologists, and men and women? Let’s see how and why they’re fitting into the culture.” And it really was that often women wildlife biologists had more trouble because they were biologists than because of their gender; although it’s hard to separate out the two. Wildlife biologists were seen as obstructionists; they were always telling the foresters and the engineers and the range cons what they couldn’t do; why they had to spend more money and more time doing something different, or doing what they normally did a little bit differently, or make 180 degree turn. A lot of the biologists and a group and individual self-image – they call themselves “combat biologists.” The Nez Perce said, “Screw negotiations, go for the throat.” And they had this wolverine with a rabbit by the throat, combat biologist on the Nez Perce. Well that just set up conflict. And so they were having conflict and they were taking no ownership for that. And so I was a forest economist, and not a Forest Service person and not that well known in the agency, so I recruited Jack Ward Thomas. Because he was a highly respected Forest Service professional, very good politically and loved and respected throughout. And we hit it off. And so we developed a one week training session. Well we did the research – I could give you the reprints – which was the only research done in that area that I know of, in natural resources; then or since. And of course it just broke my heart to see some of my best and brightest students come back one, two, or three years after being in the agencies, failing as a person and a professional, and as an employee. Being miserable, being unsuccessful, not really helping the land or their people or future generations, and not taking any ownership for their failure: blaming it all on evil, external forces, men, politics, the damn foresters and engineers. And that just broke my heart. I mean that was worse than watching the land erode. And you can’t have healthy land without healthy people managing it. BM: Right, right. JK: So that’s what really changed my career. And I got involved in studying cultures and the interaction of culture, cultural change and changing power. And so we developed this training course that really ran about 80% of the current entry level; within five years the entry level wildlife/fisheries biologists through that program. And it was known, in some regions, as Peace Corps training for biologists. BM: Did you have a title for that training program? JK: Yeah. It was a formal training program; part of the formal wildlife/fisheries biologist training program, called “Entry Level Training.” BM: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  41   �JK: We usually went out and held it on the sites or among the forests, rather than bringing them to the universities. BM: And most of them were in the Pacific Northwest region? JK: No, all over – eastern regions – BM: Oh, okay. JK: And it went to New Mexico; a couple in Region 4 did come up to Utah State; one in Montana, a couple in Alaska. BM: You know, it’s interesting that you make that comment because I remember in Oregon, when I was there the group that was really being crucified were the archaeologists. JK: Them too. And landscape architects and the soft scientists – those “ologists” that didn’t have any kind of entry level training like that suddenly started showing up at these short courses. As did an awful lot of mid-career biologists that really hadn’t gotten over the pain from the way they were treated in their involvement with the Forest Service. And in some cases some of the people who should have quit and left were those who didn’t. Usually you lose your best and your brightest in the first three years. Those that stay in often stay in and cope in a stoic, bitter way. And sadly they become toxic mentors when we send our summer students out, or young, permanent people or co-op students. You know, because some of these isolated, ineffectual biologists can be interesting characters. They’re like Robin Hood stuck up in the Nez Perce – no one likes them but that’s because no one can handle their vision and truth and devotion to the land. And they’re all dog loyal to the agency, where I care about the land and the birds and birds and the cougars. And you can come with that encased, glorious, victimization image of yourself. And there are always plenty of whining support groups you can get around with alcohol, especially, to help convince you that you really are the pure of heart and the agency and the politics and the stupid locals just don’t appreciate you. And that’s how Peace Corps volunteers become ugly Americans and dysfunctional, and really betray the faith of that position that they’re in Zambia or Uganda. And we use those examples all the time. BM: Hmm. Now was this during a time when the group in the Forest Service (and I don’t know the exact name), but the environmental – JK: Exactly. BM: Employee ethics? JK: The Forest Service for Employee Ethics. Yeah. BM: Yes. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  42   �JK: And the current president and CEO of that is one of our PhD students who never finished, Dave Iverson, from the regional office. Who took all of his coursework at Utah State University – in Ecology at Utah State University. Yeah, that was a splinter group that broke off because of the frustration and anger they had, and sense of betrayal with the Forest Service. A lot of it though was their personal, professional betrayal. Because we never talked about career development; we talk about managing all these precious resources out there and the ecosystem – your career is pretty precious too, and it’s a non-renewable resource if you’re not careful. For example, an awful lot of these people had this image of promotion of the “Cinderella” model: they were going to go out and keep their hands pure of politics, they were never going to kiss anyone’s ass or snuggle up to any line officer; they were just going to work hard, work Sundays, work their ass off, do good work and their Prince Charming was going to come down in a clean truck and pluck them up out of the stream and say, “What can I give you? Come to the mountaintop and pick your career.” And when you put it that way they’d all just kind of look at you. And some people would even start crying. And they say, “That’s stupid!” And not only that, it’s arrogant. Because when you put yourself in that position you set yourself up for a lose/lose position. Because if you’re not picked up by your Prince Charming, it’s not your fault, you’re being pure – you’re being a pure Cinderella or Cinderello (if you’re a male). And the whole fault is in the ignorant, insensitive, bureaucratic, political system. And so not only do you feel betrayed and unappreciated, but there’s no way you can fix it because you won’t get involved. And it’s just this death spiral for people and professionals – it’s a tragedy that Shakespeare would recognize and would make much more poetic than me. But I saw it and it bothered me, and a few other people did too. And so ironically when people like Mike Dombeck and Jack Thomas end up in high power positions, so did a lot of other wildlife biologists. They were so ready (talk about the seed crystal), they were so ready for us – whether they realized it or not, most of them didn’t realize it. And initially they thought we were a setup to bring all these wildlife biologists together for a week at a nice ski resort that wasn’t being used in May; play nice so they would lay down and let the rock trucks roll over them. And they came in with cohesive and ready to – “You just try to teach me something, you just try!” You know, you’d see the body language at the opening night. And normally, when I was younger that would’ve terrified me, I’d had wet my pants. But I learned that was engagement, and what I always seek in a group is engagement. And I get less engagement with undergraduates than I do with anyone. You can’t avoid engagements with serious, involved professionals; they just challenge you. And if you can rise to that challenge, that’s really cool. And again, it really allowed me to come back as a much more confident peer among my other peers (who still have Cinderella models), and often directly and indirectly project that and teach that to their students: don’t get involved in politics, don’t compromise—all of that stuff that’s just dysfunctional. BM: Well and that also follow with then, don’t even come to the table and negotiate; don’t even bring your ideas and don’t feel like you’re part of a team. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  43   �JK: That’s right. BM: So how does that eventually affect the perception of yourself, and your whole role within that agency? JK: Yeah. Well, you become disempowered. BM: Yeah. JK: Bitter. And it’s tragic; it’s a tragedy. We were pretty effective on that, plus we had a lot of fun. We really did. I am more confident that I changed more lives per capita that way than with undergraduates. BM: Um-hmm. Can you recall one of the good arguments that somebody brought to that workshop? I mean it sounds like an incredibly engaging week – like an energy drain too. Whew! JK: Yeah. You could think it through and when you represent it in the Cinderella model and you have Jack Thomas and I doing that, you know, and you get them laughing; and sometimes we’d act it out. You’d get them; you’d play “gotcha” the whole time. But they knew Jack and I really, really cared about them and the future of National Forests, and wanted them to be an effective part of it. We wanted to empower them. And they all considered themselves scientists – and you would show them the numbers – there were a lot of numbers on this to look at the failures. And we’d look at the interviews and the survey research results that I got my studies with the Forest Service. And many of them were part of those studies, and I made sure the results got back to the participants. We were playing coyote, you know. That’s when I first started developing this image of myself in a bio as “Coyote the Trickster,” who I love. That is such a wonderful image and a god. Christianity is so bereft of the power of having an image like that. I mean, actually Peter was always one of my favorite apostles because he was so ADHD and wacko! He wanted to walk on water . . . and what Jesus of Nazareth was just smoking when he saw that guy as a rock! [Looking for files] I’m looking for – I had to change all my files around because they’re kicking me out of this space. And I don’t know where my bios are. Hmm. You keep me going; I want to find those even if I didn’t want to immediately give them to you because I know where in the heck they were. That’s normally where I kept them. Huh. BM: I’m going to stop the tape. [Stop and start recording.] BM: We’re back on. JK: He’s always being caught for his hubris (as the ancient Greeks would call it). Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  44   �BM: This is the Trickster you’re talking about? JK: Yeah, Coyote the Trickster. And we would say to them, “We’re Coyote the Trickster. We’re here to cause you to wonder, to question things. We’re here to annoy you. We’re not here to play nice. We’re going to be confrontative; we’re going to be honest. We get away with this in the short courses because “it will be abundantly clear to you that we really care about you and we want you to succeed and we want you to figure out ways to finesse and to use Judo. To know how the organization works, and rather than Sumo wrestling.” I mean most of these people were the Sumo wrestler model: they were going to squat down and run up against the bureaucracy. All the engineers and foresters; all the damn men were reactionaries and they became road kill. And they’d get up valiantly and wham! [End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B] BM: We are on tape 3 and we are on side 2, continuing with Jim Kennedy. Just talking about Judo versus Sumo wrestlers in how we approach things. JK: Well, you know, all things are a relationship. And your relationship with an organization is huge. And I know this from experience. I don’t know this from self-help books; I mean I’ve been road kill. I’ve acted out against authority. Back in my bedroom bureau I probably have 40 Purple Hearts from serious injuries in combat with bureaucracies. And they always win, you know, especially if you confront them with impatience and arrogance. But that’s how heroes were trained: from the comic books, with our professors, with movies. You know, this is my alternate – I have my bio here – but on the back I said: I have an alternate, more honest and descriptive Jim Kennedy bio sketch. I am Coyote the Trickster. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to doubt, wonder, search, so you and I might be more aware and wondering learners together. I’m not here to teach you to know more or better. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to be a learner and not a knower, and as such I honor your inherent wisdom. As an insecure grad student I didn’t want to be Coyote at this stage in my career. I dreamed of being White Eagle: mature, wise, proud, mighty and unassailable, sailing safely above you and the messiness, complexity and wonder of life, raining truths down to teach you, with neither of us being learners, not much. Happily I failed at that, it never worked for the things I considered worth learning, including myself. I am Coyote the Trickster down here with you and immersed in our own messy, complex, and mysterious world. And as such I honor you, myself and together what we search to learn more about. And you know, I’d give it to them and I’d tell them, like I do my students (I give this to my undergraduate students) and I say, “I’m going to play Coyote with you now.” And they’d relax, they wouldn’t feel the confrontation. And I’d use myself and Jack Thomas, we’d use ourselves [as] examples. We would laugh about it; they’d laugh at me and with me. And all of the sudden you’d feel them, they’d get had. They’d go, “Oh my god! That’s what I’m Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  45   �doing! Oh, that is really dumb; I have to consider changing!” And that’s huge, to get people to do that five or six times in a week. But it was going on with people all around them. I mean people really had “falling off the horse” experiences on the way to Damascus. But they couldn’t do that unless they had gone through the pain and frustration and be ready to change. And they weren’t ready to change fresh out of college. They just didn’t have the life experiences. BM: Right. JK: And so that was the most powerful educator experience I ever had. BM: But you know that comes when you talk about being at the right time to change and having that experience, but also of being of the mentality to be open to change. Like being open to learning and realizing that each one of those is a learning experience, and you know, “What did I learn? Or I’m going to go and repeat this again and again until I finally learn.” JK: Yeah. BM: You know, so it’s recognizing it and also having found that those years on your feet that you recognize the experience contributing. JK: Yeah and we’d use all sorts of metaphors and examples. For example, we said, “Look, in America today you all expected to learn about being an effective bureaucrat with soul and spirit, and a long term resilience on the job. You’re as poorly trained in that as you were in sex. We don’t formally train you in sex in our country it’s on the job experience. And often it’s pretty tragic and high risk, but especially if you don’t have the right attitudes to be an effective on-the-job learner; whether it’s sex or in the bureaucracy.” Most of them don’t realize that that’s their job. When you go to a foreign country – Kathy and I have spent a lot of time in foreign countries or as a Peace Corps worker – you’re going to have to do most of your learning there. But it’s absolutely essential that when you go there that you have functional attitudes and strategies to be an effective on-the-job trainer. We give them neither of that here, other than the ENBS programs, some of them. We just give them science and throw them out in the bureaucracy, usually with the attitude that politics is bad. Many of our students have the same attitudes toward politics my grandmother had about sex, you know, it was very Victorian: you only did it as means to an end, you weren’t supposed to enjoy the process, take a shower afterward, you never talked about it, you didn’t study about it. And so they would only engage in politics if they felt dragged into it; many of them would feel dirty afterwards. I mean the attitudes we have about politics and politicians are the attitudes we had about “dumb blondes” and “niggers” when I was young. It is biased and bigoted and it’s poisonous to our culture. And we can joke about lawyers and politicians now, with the same impunity that you used to be able to joke about “dumb Pollack’s” or “Irishmen” or “dumb blondes” or “black men from the south” or something. You can’t joke about those things anymore, praise god. And so we have a terrible, dysfunctional, black hole in the way we disempower our young people in the education we give them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  46   �And not only that, our professors (but our professors don’t know it), they’re like, in many cases, a bunch of celibate Catholic bishops who are talking to people about sex, you know. They just don’t get it; I mean they have never had the on-job experience. That’s why they are often in universities. And look how bitter and how easily some of our professional colleagues burn out because the bureaucracy doesn’t work in their Cinderella, Robin Hood mythology that’s totally unrealistic and unfounded. They hold to that because they don’t have anything else rational. And they don’t consider that a rational part of their thinking in life. They respond to that emotionally and glandularly: where they use their intellect in a lot of parts of their personal and professional roles (say with professional colleagues here), but they haven’t been aware that there is science out there in this and they shouldn’t figure it out. I mean we were treated the same way when we were trained to be educators as professors. We had no formal training in that, that’s on-the-job the same way we had our sex training. We had some good role models and some bad role models, and we bumble around and try. We don’t monitor it and measure it; we don’t try different learning practices that much. And it’s not an area where we apply our science. I mean the studies that I did on how and why entry-level professionals were succeeding and failing in the Forest Service, you know part of their failure was the poor, dysfunctional way they were educated and role modeled. So we have to take credit for that. BM: So today, if you were working with the Forest Service and you had that job back again, what kinds of training would you recommend? JK: Well to continue what we’re doing. The problem is in all this wanting to get together there was real suspicion about different professional groups going off by themselves, they thought they were becoming clannish and not part of the mainstream and identifying too much with a particular specialty. BM: So what are the different professions? Biology [inaudible] JK: Engineers, foresters, yeah, and watershed, soils people. And so they pretty much – plus that’s expensive: it’s a full week. It’s hands-on; it’s expensive. And many of the training programs have been gutted and reduced and thrown into big groups where they have a lot of motivational people come in, at one extreme, and a lot of agency line officers come in at the other end of the extreme, and talk to them about policy and stuff which is pretty boring. And in terms of life skills and survival skills and really getting in touch with their humanity as well. I mean that was part of it too. We focused a lot on that. And really you have to love yourself to be able to love and care about others. You have to take care of yourself if you are going to have anything left over to care for the land and care for some of your colleagues. And be a person in the agency that is a healer, rather than a slasher or a “salt on the wounds,” or someone who just ignores people and walks on the other side of the road to Damascus when you see someone in a ditch. Because you’ve got your head up in the air, in theory, or you’re doing important things. So someone is having marital problems or is obviously having alcohol addiction problems in the way they’re showing up or not showing up. And just deal with that because that’s good work for groups of people and human beings. So you can’t separate that from being a good biologist or an engineer. You can, but I don’t think it’s functional or healthy or sustainable. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  47   �BM: So when you talk about the difference in training here at Utah State with the College of Natural Resources, we’re separated into Wildland Resources and Watershed, and then we have Environment and Society. JK: Yeah. And the whole core educational program that I worked so hard to pull off, where we were in the vanguard of the world (not just North America), by having core courses and bringing all of our young people together in initial courses and talk to them about the dark side of their professional: myopia and pride and arrogance. And we’ve balkanized, you know. We were Yugoslavia, like Yugoslavia was from the ‘70s through the mid-90s, and now we’ve balkanized just like Yugoslavia. And we have the Serbs and the Croats and the Bosnians, you know. We have the same thing with the hard sciences and the soft sciences. When I really want to confront my colleagues (and I can get away with it as an economist and as male), I talk to them about the erect sciences and the flaccid sciences. BM: [Laughing] JK: Some of them just squirm. But I’m playing Coyote with them; because it’s often at that level and that level of intellectual foundation. It’s at the glandular level: hard science, soft science, social science, true science. Calculus versus college algebra; how you’re not worthy unless you go through that. It’s more sinister than substance in that. But it’s very powerful and it’s a deep undercurrent. BM: Let’s bring it a little bit closer to home then, to Logan Canyon in terms of as someone who is living here and working here, some of the policies that you saw impacting the canyon and some of the activities that were going on here. You also mentioned that you recreated with your family up there. So could we talk a little bit also about some of those special places, and maybe how policy sort of changed those? JK: Sure. Well the biggest policy battles I’ve been involved with Logan Canyon from the early ‘70s has been always the highway; UDOT eventually wanting to put four lanes of concrete up through that place. I think. Maybe, maybe we’ve slowed them down enough – you know that’s one of the last canyons that doesn’t have major highways slashed through it. Most of the other stuff is that with all the times I’ve been on sabbaticals, with all the traveling we’ve done in the summer, I haven’t staked a claim on a watershed or an area where I’ve become a defender of it. I love skiing on Green Canyon and I really respected them closing that off. There used to be four wheel drives and snowmobiles up there all the time. And making it an urban, short day use recreational area for families and everything. To be able to work a fulfilling day and be in cross-country skis twelve minutes after you close the door in your office, and ski to the darkness of the evening and turn around and still see the red glow as you come down; gravity brings you down that canyon. We used to go up there and ski at night a lot; just a wonderful gift for me. Most of the areas that I really used are just that beautiful basin below Third Dam, off to the south. We’d go up towards that glacial circ up there, that beautiful area. I mean that is such a beautiful area! And it’s just so quick and easy to get to. You know, we’d go up to Tony Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  48   �Grove and we’d hike up there and things like that. When I was director of summer camp and staying there at nights, I would run at night up through those old logging roads and dirt roads up behind camp. It was just gorgeous country. Again, I think the land up there is healed up more and it looks better (and probably functioning better) than it did years ago – ten, 20, 30, 50 years ago. BM: And what would you attribute that to? JK: Just less timber harvesting, more controlled wood scrounging, and especially grazing: better grazing management. And really the market system has really cut down on the motivation to graze sheep up there, you just couldn’t make money. Plus the labor costs and scarcity of labor for the shepherds, took care of a lot of battles with the sheep, in a very quiet way that is much more acceptable than political battles in our culture (for better or worse). Listen, why don’t you shut this down a bit. [Stop and start recording.] Well and the context – so much of my responses to your questions on policy and involvement in the Forest Service is ironic, but I’ve had probably the least impact on Region 4 (this region) that I’ve spent almost 40 years in, than the rest of the agency. I’ve spent much more time and have been much more accepted and welcomed into the Region 6 [Pacific Northwest Region] culture; I think they’re more liberal and they’re more mobile. Region 4 is pretty homestead, you know. Folks usually stay within the region and don’t leave. I don’t know. You only have so many places to punch your dance card. My phone would be ringing and I’d be saying, “Yes” to go to Milwaukee and to go to Portland and go to Juneau, and be driving in the snow past Ogden – coming or going – to catch a plane. I’d be thinking, “What are you doing? Are you nuts Kennedy?” As a result, that filled a lot of my needs to do that. And on the weekends often we would go some place, especially after the kids grew up. I didn’t spend that much time involved in Logan Canyon. And with some people, like the high Uintas we used to hike in when the kids were young, to manage my guilt I would just support the high Uintas preservation group with Carter and some of those folks – to be a spokesperson for me. BM: So that was one of the groups you were involved with? JK: Well, yeah initially, when he left the Wilderness Society and started that group. BM: And who is this person? JK: Dick Carter. [See Folk Collection 37: Box 3 & 4] BM: Dick Carter, okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  49   �JK: Yeah. And he was one of my early students so I had a lot of respect for him. He was always an activist, it was in his blood. Some students you just see in the audience and you know that they’re going to be involved up to their elbows in that stuff. I’ve been involved in surveys and I was involved in public meetings and things on their planning, at the request of the district rangers (who I tended to know, but I haven’t known the last two or three). So that’s kind of sad in a way, in my own backyard I’m the least involved and probably the least known. BM: But it’s interesting in the perspective of the fact that it’s not that they’re behind the times here, it’s that the culture is different and they are – how would you say it? They look at it through a different lens? JK: They’re more entrenched, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. But I mean, really they haven’t had the pressures that Oregon and Washington had in so many ways. And the values were less environmentally oriented, so the populace hasn’t had a ground swell as they had in those areas. Now that’s changing, happily. Of course Oregon has so many more people and so much more money, and they needed so many more biologists because they had so much mitigation work to do with all the activity they were doing up in the hills, for better or worse (and often for worse). I spent an awful lot of time in Region 6, was well known in Region 6. And loved going there because it was a different environment, and a different place; and you go to a different city, like Portland. And sometimes Kathy would go with me. I spent a lot of time there. BM: So what was it like to come back here then and watch what was going on here, knowing what you saw in other places, as well as the kind of work that you were doing? JK: Well, I didn’t have the time and energy to mope about it too much. I tend to have faith that things change, and I’m patient. [Laughing] I’ve learned patience. And yet I knew some people and I respected them, and they respected me, but they wouldn’t ask me to be involved as much because I usually would stir up action and excitement. That’s bothersome to some people. Again, I don’t want to sound arrogant about them. Just by fate there were a couple of regional foresters that we had a great personal and professional relationship with. None of them have ever been in this region. Regional foresters trust you as an outsider; they’re always calling you to do things. And it’s the same way with the chiefs, you know. All the really sensitive national studies where we looked at the soul of the Forest Service, I was in charge of. And they never edited me. I mean they just gave me a scalpel and rib separators and said, “Here, we’ll support you. We want you to sample 15-20% of our people and you just crank open their rib cage man, and you poke around in their heart.” They trusted me to do that, and they never were betrayed. BM: And you did that through interview and surveys? JK: Yeah. I was the one that challenged them to look at their values and reward system. The biggest heartburn and conflict at all state, especially the entry-levels of career, is when people’s values are not consistent with the values that Forest Service rewards. And it’s the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  50   �same with the university. I’m not saying it’s not consistent with the values they mouth, the values and their vision statement. What they say at the university or the Forest Service is rewarded, is often much more consistent with what the values young people entering into the profession hold dear and want to be rewarded. The real hypocrisy and the corrosive effect on the agency culture, spirit and respect is when the agency says they reward values that professionals endorse, and then they don’t. They reward other things. And the university is the same hypocrisy, you see. BM: Oh, and I bet it’s true in other industries. JK: Oh yeah, but I think that’s true with most organizations. And it’s true with many families too. “Oh we really care about our children. I really care about my spouse.” But put a pedometer on their ankles or on their brain and their heart and see where their heart and mind and ass spends most of their time. You’ll see that what you see and what you do is often very, very different and hypocritical and dysfunctional in the long term; especially when you don’t recognize or admit it. And so the last study I did for the last kind of Vatican gathering of the council of the Forest Service is – here I’ll show you. I just have to go over here and pull one off. I may even have an extra. Part of my not spending that much time in Logan Canyon, [was] of course [because], for the last 15 years we’ve had a ranch in southern Utah, and every time I want to get in touch with land I run there. I’m not the best person for the last 20-30 years about having an intimacy with Logan Canyon. Most of the joy and thrill and contact I have with that National Forest is just basking in its beauty visually and spiritually in the morning and the evening. And waking up to it or looking out my window or facing a class and walking over to BNR314 and looking at the sun coming up over the mountain after the students thunder out, or the sun setting on it and the snow turning pink. Thinking how blessed I am to live in this valley. So it’s the ambiance, the indirect relationship I have with that. And I’ve hiked up on Mount Logan – I just look up at it and remember that I’ve been there and know what it looks like up there – and can still feel a joy walking over to my 3:30 class Wednesday, my Econ class that’s two hours over in the Business Building. When I go have coffee I always sit at the bar and face out the window. Even if I’m reading the paper, I’m looking over the top of the paper all the time at that mountain. So you know I do cherish it. That’s one of the reasons I’m here and came here. I haven’t had a hands-on relationship with it for quite a while. BM: But there’s also that being able to enjoy it from a distance, and those memories that are a part of it. As well as you know, you think of how does that help regenerate you and just recharge you for the kinds of things that you need to go and do. JK: Oh, it’s a very spiritual relationship. Just as some people walk past a stain-glass window or something, it has all those qualities. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  51   �BM: You wonder if, you know, when you talk about just that simple act of being able to enjoy the canyon from here, and you wonder how many people actually do that. Especially the students – when you think of this incredible setting we’re in and it hits you in the face all the time. JK: Yeah, yeah. BM: And in the changing light of day, you know, highlights the different parts of that mountainside to the east. You know, how many people really think about that? JK: Yeah. Oh in the last two weeks it’s been some of the greenest I’ve ever seen it since 1970. It looks like Ireland; it’s gorgeous! Maybe 10% of the last 30 years the soil has been that saturated with moisture; it is amazing. Plus with the cool spring, we’ve put off the growth spurt until the day length really is long. And man, those plants are like race horses: been delayed in the starting gate for 15 minutes – they can’t wait to get out. And you can just see them grow; you can just hear it almost. BM: The green up is amazing; it just really catches your eye. Ah! Let’s stop for a second. [Stop and start recording.] Okay, we’re back. JK: Now all the research that I did was never funded by the research money – not a dime. It was always out of operating. It was line officers that had problems, had questions; had issues. And they really wanted me to come in. That’s why I could never have many graduate students – they wanted me to come in and be a consultant. And they wanted the answers next week. I mean I’d say, “Over the summer I can find a good grad student, and we’ll study it for two years, we’ll have a publication.” “No way.” That was not their time dimension. They were in a hurry and they had real issues. Now it was sad that I’d hire people that were on campus for six months, or six weeks, to do something and that was grand. But I never developed a cadre of PhD students and things like that because I could never get long-term funding. And these folks kept me so busy doing things I thought were important and were immensely rewarding. The nice thing about that though is you never lamented them not using your results. In fact they over-used them sometimes. They would, you know. I would say, “Wait a minute! This is only two regions, this isn’t a national study.” “No, no, no; let’s put it in place, we’ll start a program!” You know, and you’re around these people that are actionary people – they were so much different than researchers. And their time dimensions, their sense of urgency and often their personal bonding – I mean they didn’t want to lose another woman wildlife biologist. It was too hard to recruit them, and the last one that left broke their heart because she had a lot of potential. And they saw it as a real failure and an accident that they would like to avoid. So that was pretty heady and rewarding. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  52   �I did respect the Forest Service social scientists. Hendee, Stankey  and Lucas were some of the best social scientists on the planet in the area of natural resources. BM: Could you – you’ve got the first name? JK: Hendee, Stankey and Lucas – they were the last names. You’d all know them? [John Hendee, George Stankey & Robert Lucas. ] BM: George Stankey? JK: Yeah. They all came up with the first studies of wilderness areas and boundary waters canoe areas; and the landscape architects in the Forest Service coming up with all the visual management stuff. People in Europe, that’s what they wanted to get from us. I mean they thought they knew all they needed to know about silviculture (and chances are they did), or game management in Germany or New Zealand. In the early 1900s if there were floppy disks, Germany and France could’ve given us floppy disks on how to manage our forests, how to create a National Forest Service, and how to educate our forestry students. We essentially just took that and put it right into our (metaphorically) computers in 1900, and just followed them like a blueprint. But what we gave back to that area of the world and the rest of the world when we started being innovative was NEPA, really. From the ‘60s and ‘70s on, we were ahead of all the rest of the natural resource agencies in the western world and planet. Because the previous ones – this whole machine model of conservation: sustaining the flow of (primarily) commodities – was designed for an industrial state with a large part of the population still being rural. They were able to have that kind of blood and blister relationship with producing commodities. But in a restrained way (and that’s what sustained was – it was a bridle on us race horses or plow horses out there) to manage the land in a way that wouldn’t destroy the long-term productivity. That’s the way the laws and the philosophy always was; but as we became an urban, post-industrial society (and I’ve written extensively on that) there was a different relationship with the land. It was urban and it was much more romantic and idealistic; much less blood and blister. And I have nothing against romanticism – I’m a romantic and I’m going to die one. I’m even romantic about death. The Danish Forest Service, they were still stuck in a rural, industrial model of society’s relationship with their natural resources. And society just was not there. And we thought it was society’s problem. Look at all the effort Weyerhaeuser invested to try to get the public to love clear cuts, you know. No way. And maybe we can get people to love root canals. I mean they just don’t like it, you know. And it looks bloody ugly; and don’t tell me it’s going to look good in 50 years! I’m already 50 and I’m not going to be here! And that’s not renewable as far as I’m concerned, buster. And in many ways it’s always been the case that the public are libertarians and foresters and wildlife/fisheries biologists, we’ve always been communists. We look at the stand, and the population, and the long-term. And that’s a very impersonal, abstract relationship where people don’t cut that tree or those trees along that stream in a very libertarian way. And we Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  53   �respond like communists, “You’ve got to think in the long term, lady. Don’t get emotional. You know this has a purpose; we’re going to plant it back. It’s all going to be back and you’ve got to focus on the masses, not the individual. And don’t be bleeding heart about it; you’ve got to be a bit abstract.” That’s the argument I used to have with my classmates at Penn State in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And so there’s a built in conflict between the public and natural resource managers. We are, by our nature and by what society really expects of us, dealing with the long-term productivity and sustainability of systems to look at it in a larger, more abstract way. Some people think it’s impersonal, where we love the system. You know, Stalin would probably say he loved the masses of Russians, as he was killing about 5% of the population every decade. It just didn’t fit into his image. It had to be done to cull the stand, to get rid of the weed trees. You know, to manage it for long-term, abstract goals – which sustained yield is, or sustainability is a pretty abstraction too. And it’s a much more organic model. [Stop recording.] [Tape 4 of 4: A] Susan needs to pick up from here and finish the transcript with the last tape I have sent over. Thanks, Barbara Randy Williams: I do not have the fourth tape. Sent email to Barb on 1/7/2011 and again on 7/12/2011 about it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Jim  Kennedy     Page  54   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jim Kennedy interview, 4-5 May 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor at Utah State University), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. The transcript for tape 4 is not included as of 10/10/12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Interviews Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Childhood and youth Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Family Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Career in Forestry Education Trapping--Pennsylvania--Montgomery--Anecdotes Farm life--Pennsylvania--Montgomery Dairy farming--Pennsylvania--Anecdotes Delta Upsilon Fraternity Utah State University. College of Natural Resources--Faculty--Interviews Forestry teachers--Biography College teaching--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Mentoring in education Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes Box, Thadis W. Ecology--Study and teaching United States. Forest Service United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees--Training of Career education Occupational training Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Religion Natural resources--Law and legislation--Utah Multiculturalism Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (Association) Recreation--Utah--Green Canyon (North Logan) Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Cache Valley (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Philadelphia (Pensylvania) Pennsylvania Mink Creek (Idaho) Emigration Canyon (Idaho) Mount Logan (Utah) Green Canyon (North Logan, Utah) Idaho Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd6JimKennedy Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 4-5 May 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-05-04 2009-05-05 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/6c0494b3102cbdb8ac9feef5c11a1070.mp3 1eda16ac17d7fc51187ea7bd5dee80b6 https://highway89.org/files/original/790e78acba7c8721b35f2fb27b213c3a.pdf 06eda37c1313d5ef77ccc9238375a4d7 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: John Neuhold Place of Interview: John’s home in Logan UT Date of Interview: April 11, 2008 Interviewer: Lyra Hilliard Recordist: Lyra Hilliard Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Express Scribe Transcription Software Transcribed by: Glenda Nesbit Transcript Proofed by: Elaine Thatcher, Randy Williams (2011) and John Neuhold (July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: personal background, but mostly his professional life and education, his mentors, his work in Wisconsin, but mostly in Utah, including project with the Deseret Livestock Company (intensive grazing), working with fisheries, dealing with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at USU and politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references to the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists. Work creating and work as first director of USU Ecology Center and participation in the Utah Democratic Party. Reference: JN = John Neuhold LH = Lyra Hilliard (USU graduate student) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Tracks 1-3 are preliminary to the interview, sound testing, etc., and not transcribed. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION LH: This is Lyra Hilliard with the Logan Canyon Use and Management Oral History Project. And we are here with… JN: My full name is Matthias Johann Werchnig Neuhold –it is different—A KA John M. Neuhold. I was born at an address on Cherry Street in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on May 18, 1928, my mother’s birthday. Both my mother and father were Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  1   �immigrants from Austria and they came to this country right after World War I. And shortly after that I was born. My earliest memory of Logan Canyon is when I came out here and I left the University of Wisconsin to come out here to attend the, then, the School of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management. I drove down Logan Canyon with two friends, Ed Harvey and Gene Holenstein. Ed was from Milwaukee and Gene was from Rice Lake, Wisconsin. And it was on June 11th we came down from Milwaukee with our jaws agape because we were just absolutely fascinated by the scenery. We had come across the United States on US 30, Highway 30, the Lincoln Highway, and deviated from it to 30 North and crossed into Utah. What was then basically a dirt road came down Low Canyon. Saw Bear Lake again, we were astounded and then climbed the mountain and came down Logan Canyon and found lodging on 4th North. And in the morning when we got up there was four inches of snow on the highway on June 12th. My family’s land use traditions really started with my grandfathers, both by grandfathers, who were game keepers in Austria. And my maternal grandfather had a farm in a valley called the Valley of the Gailtal, Austria, and worked for one of the estates. At that time it was still a royal estate. And he was a game keeper for the royal estate. My other grandfather was killed in a mountain climbing accident when he was serving as a game keeper; he was killed on Mt. Dobratz in southern Austria, which is right on the Italian border actually. The land use traditions actually continued although. My father got work as a construction worker in the Milwaukee area. He loved to hunt and fish and the family always was out on weekends or when he had vacations. Why, we took off into northern Wisconsin and out there. And of course as I grew older I was farmed out and began to work as a farm hand in southeastern Wisconsin on several different farms. I came out here as a student from the University of Wisconsin in the area of, I thought initially, as forestry. And then began to deviate from that into the wildlife area and gained my degrees in Wildlife Management, Fishery Management and then finally Aquatic Toxicology. My Ph.D. was in Aquatic Toxicology. My hobbies and recreational pursuits followed my father’s lead and that was basically hunting and fishing, expanding into such things as skiing, outdoor hiking and basically just taking advantage of the outdoors. I’m an outdoor person. Let’s see we got through the professional part of it. LH: So that first day that you drove through Logan Canyon, that June 11th, coming here to, as a transfer student, to go to school. JN: Uh hum. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  2   �LH: Were the other two people with you? JN: Yeah. LH: They also were students? JN: Yeah. They were students. Yes. We came out here, at that time the School of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management. We didn’t have a college at that time. This was still called the Utah State Agricultural College. It was still called the Utah State Agricultural College at the time. And that was in 1950. The students that were present, we came out here to attend summer camp which was held up Logan Canyon, where I became introduced to a variety of things. I should point out that before I left University of Wisconsin, my mentor or professor at the University of Wisconsin was one Phillip Whitford who was a student of Curtis’s and whose area was ecology – plant ecology. And I worked for him; I took classes from him of course. But then I also worked for him doing a lot of forest surveying, identifying trees in the winter time. He was laying out basically plots for forest growth, woodlots and farms and that in southeastern Wisconsin. And my job was there was basically to go out and identify trees and plot areas and measure the sizes of the trees and so on. And we were doing that winter and summer. So I became very adept at identifying the vegetation in southern Wisconsin. But I came out here in the summer camp. We of course were introduced to the plants out in this area. Most of which I knew so that was not much of a problem. And that was really a very interesting time for me. Then when I was out here after summer camp, Dr. Ted Daniels and Ray Moore hired me, along with Sam Jackson and Sterling Rickman, to do some plot layout work for them on the school forest. And again their concerns up there was looking at forest growth and the way we did that was basically to lay out the plots along a line that we used with a chain, that we measured with a chain. And then identified the trees at the end of, I think it was a hundred meter chain. Yeah, it was a hundred meters. We identified the trees in that particular area. Measured them, took their DBHs. That is diameter-breast height-and estimated the height of the trees and the species of the trees in the area. That was my introduction to the forest part of the area. And then I got into the wildlife management. That’s where I did my Bachelor’s degree was a matter of two more years of training in that area. And then my Master’s degree was in fishery management. And then I went to work for the State of Utah Fish and Game Department at that time. And I had, I was hired by the Assistant Federal Aid Coordinator: Jay Udy in Salt Lake City, along with Bill McConnell who was a fellow student of mine. And we were put to work. We, basically what we did was design and implement the Stream and Lake Survey in the state. And that was really a marvelous experience for me because I went to work with crews. We hired crews. Most of the work was in the summertime when Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  3   �we could hire students to help us work on the statewide lake survey, part of it. But it took us into every corner of the state. And our procedures were basically to do sections of streams and lakes. We used electro fishing to find out what kind of fish were present in the streams and we used nets in the various lakes and reservoirs to identify the lakes. And it was the first time that an inventory was taken of lakes and streams in the state. The most interesting part of that, well there was a lot of interesting parts to it really. One was getting acquainted with the rural part of Utah and the people living in those areas, which was really quite interesting. The area, the people there, of course, were mostly all Mormons and part of the culture, but unlike the . . . let’s say they were not as rigorous down there as they were up here in Cache Valley or in Utah County. It was . . . you could have fun with them. It seemed that the higher in the mountains they got, the less strict they became. It was something that . . . actually it was a comment that was made by Frazier Darley who happened to be a British, English ecologist who made a tour of this country. And when he got to Utah he was hosted by three of the state’s worst reprobates: Lee Kay from the Fish and Game Department, Rasmussen from US Forest Service, and Art Smith from the Utah State faculty. They guided him around the town and he’s the guy that made the comment that he recognized that he understood that the Mormons were strict teetotalers, but it seemed that the higher in the mountains they went the less strict they became, and out came the bottles. I worked with all three of those guys and they were a lot of fun. They were all Mormons but they were backsliders basically. LH: So you were talking mostly down in the southern part of the state? JN: Oh all over the state. LH: All over the state. JN: Yeah, all over the state. We, I was with the Department for a four year period and during which time I had finished my Master’s degree and I led that Stream and Lake Survey for a four year period and then when I left it was taken over by another student of mine who at that time was working for the State of Washington. Albert Regenthall, who happened to be from New Jersey, he took over my position here and then the other fellow that took over was Don Andriano who was also a former student, and a fellow student, who happened to be from Iowa originally. And he became the Chief of Fisheries here in the state where Albert became kind of all, basically in the waterfowl area. After my four years with the Fish and Game Department I came back to the University and did, I did my work on my Ph.D. and finished that up in a two year period, after which the University hired me as an Assistant Professor in 1958. And I’ve been with the University ever since that time. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  4   �A lot of the work that I did with my students was done in on the forest. A good deal of it was done in Logan Canyon on the Logan River. And it, well, it dealt mostly with fishery management questions and aquatic ecology in the river. And since my doctorate was in aquatic toxicology I did a lot of work with basically testing the various species that we had in the area for their susceptibility to the various different kinds of toxins. We did have at that time a lot of fluorides being emitted to the environment by the steel mills down in Utah County and by the phosphate fertilizer plants up in the southern part of Idaho. And a lot of the fluorides would be part of the stack emissions which would settle down on the watersheds and then when we did have a freshet come on through, a rain storm of one sort or another was washed into the rivers and we’d suddenly find a lot of fish kills. And so we tracked those questions down quite a bit. That led on to quite a lot of work. I should maybe continue on. A group of us got together on the campus, all faculty, and began to discuss the things that we had in common relating to the ecology of the area. So we had people from agriculture, and people from the, by this time we were a university so it was the College of Agriculture and the College of Science and College of Natural Resources. All the faculty that were involved in these lunch meetings were ecologists or were working in ecological areas. And from that stemmed the concept that what we needed on the campus was a thrust in ecology. So we made a proposal to the State Legislature and to the National Science Foundation to create an ecology program. Initially it was the Center of Excellence in Ecology. We did have what we considered to be a sizeable group of people that worked in the area, in all aspects of the area, autecology and synecology. And felt that we deserved recognition as a center. Well, the National Science Foundation didn’t consider us quite that good yet. However, they suggested that we apply for a departmental program in ecology, which we did. And we won that. And the same time the state allocated to us a biennial sum of continuing support in, I think it amounted to $200,000 per a biennium: $100,000 a year which was matched then by the National Science Foundation. We created the Ecology Center here. And I was named the first director of it. And as a director of it I got into a wide variety of things. Obviously one of the things that I was mostly concerned with was trying to build expertise that we did lack in the area. So I managed to talk David Goodall, an Australian ecologist who was at that time at Riverside, California, at the University of California at Riverside, to come to this campus and with the monies that we had built the faculty portion of the program. We were successful then in obtaining a big grant from the National Science Foundation in the International Biological Program. And our program here was desert ecology. So we basically built the consortium of universities from California, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, and Utah. We had some 60 different Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  5   �faculty members involved at these institutions. And the program was a multimillion dollar program and that’s, we started off with that. And it was a very successful program. And we made a pretty good name for ourselves in this area. The Ecology Center persists and it’s under, it’s now under the direction of Jim McMahon who is the Director and who is also working to get a program that’s dealing with, basically dealing with mapping and changing ecological structures in the United States, or in North America, really, when you get right down to it. And that’s been going on now since… let’s see the Ecology Center was initially formed in 1956 I think we got our initial appropriation from the state and in 1957 we got the initial appropriation from National Science Foundation. And so on. So we’ve produced a lot of students from this in the ecological area in, mostly in desert ecology, but also in aquatic ecology. A lot of my activities, because of that, became involved with the National Science Foundation; I took a two year appointment with NSF and spent some time as a Program Director for Ecosystem Analysis in Washington. After which I became a consultant to the Department of Energy and their board of consultants as an ecologist. And, I served on the EPA Science Advisory Board for a period of 22 years. Basically in the ecological arena, but I also served on their central committee which basically guided, or I should have said guided by giving advice to the agency concerning ecological involvement in the environment and how their charge basic regulation of environmental aspects infringed upon the ecosystems. So that was basically what I did until I retired. Then when it comes to my activities here on the Cache – Cache National Forest, I think perhaps one of the major things that I was involved in was road construction – highway construction on US Highway 89 going through the canyon. We were very much involved in trying to keep the engineers at bay. They were basically concerned with putting a highway through and not really caring a hell of a lot about what’s happening to the river and this sort of thing. So we went to work on that and the primary worker on that incidentally was Dr. Bill Helm – William Helm. I suggested at one time the lower portion of the highway should have been named after him because he did --- he did a lot of work on it. And actually was threatened by the highway people. They got to the governor and the governor came down and wanted to have him fired. And thank goodness the president that we had at the time refused to accept that and the governor finally backed off. But yeah, we were concerned with basically what was happening to the highway. And the thing that was happening from a policy point of view in the forest was the fact that it had been utilized basically as grazing grounds for cattle and sheep. And as a matter of fact when in the early 50s (you can still see the trails on the side of the mountain) the sheep were being grazed on the face here and they’d also trek the sheep down the canyon. Now they have to, they have to truck them down. But at that time they trekked them down and you can see the trails – trail markers that they made walking on the face. You can still see along the face here that where Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  6   �they would, where the sheep would basically create a trail a little bit, kind of like terracing going up and down. Here you can see some of it back here. That was all private land incidentally. And it hadn’t been fenced at that time yet to keep the elk and deer out of the area. LH: And that was private land? JN: Well, it was private land then but it hadn’t been fenced. So they’d come off the forest and come on the private land and down through this area. That was only in the fall when they’d take them off the mountain, or in the spring when they’d put them up in the mountain. Because they’d start to unload them here and then take them up the mountain. They’d trek them up the mountain instead of trucking. The amount of grazing that’s gone on has really been reduced drastically. Mostly, because the area has been basically converted over to a recreation area. So it’s basically outdoor recreation, hunting and fishing, camping, hiking, all sorts of things that would lead to the recreation aspect of the Forest Service’s charge. LH: Do you consider that a loss that it’s not so much grazing anymore? JN: Oh yeah. Grazing has been reduced a lot – a tremendous amount actually. There’s, I think, only about two or three sheepherders on the mountain now and it amounts only to some 10,000 sheep something like that where there used to be up in the hundreds of thousands of sheep. And there’s still cattle grazing going on up there, but it’s a small amount – relatively small amount. And in my opinion it’s still too much. LH: So it’s good that there’s less grazing. JN: It’s good that there’s less grazing, but I think because of the change of emphasis in the people’s use of the area, I think. I feel personally that there’s still too much grazing going on up there. There’s also certain aspects of recreation that there’s a little bit too much of which I disagree with; a lot of motorized access to the area. ATVs, all terrain vehicles, and in the winter time, snowmobiles have taken over a big portion of the area, and the people that use it, that use ATVs for example, a lot of them are pretty responsible. But there’s always a portion of them that want to make the place into a motorized playground so they like to drive up hills and they gouge the hell out of things. You go up the back of Mt. Logan and you can see where they, they just basically devil the hell out of the place. And it’s unfortunate but that does happen. And in the wintertime of course, the snowmobilers do, like they infringe upon the wilderness areas which you shouldn’t be doing. And actually the current ranger in the area, I think, has been a little bit too sympathetic with the motorized folks and not enough with the hikers and the horsemen in the summertime. And in the wintertime the skiers, the snowshoers that I think cause a lot less damage to the area than do the motorized vehicles. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  7   �LH: You were talking about testing, sampling the fish in the area for the toxins from Idaho and from Utah County. And you were talking about we’d get a big rain storm and flushing those toxins into the water, which led into quite a lot of work. Well, before we get there we should back up a little bit and I don’t know if you wanted to talk more about that and what you found and if people didn’t like what you found. JN: Well, one of the things that we did find was that the source of the toxins hit the watersheds and of course rained into the river. But when they were on the watershed they were also exposing grazing animals to the area. So we found a lot of fluoride intoxication, for example, in cattle and in sheep, and also in some of the wild animals: the sheep and elk and so on. And our findings basically caused the Environmental Protection Agency and the state environmental agency to put limits on what could be done in that particular area so that the steel mills had to put up capture devices to keep the fluoride from going out. And the same thing was true up here with the phosphate plants. So that you know, that was successfully taken care of. LH: And when was this? When would this have been? JN: Oh this was back in the 1950s basically. And by the end of the ‘60s, the start of the ‘70s, most of that had been pretty well taken care of. Fluoride intoxication was pretty well put under control. Let’s see what other things did we have? LH: Well, I wonder about attitudes and changes over time. I mean, when I hear “Well we were looking at this in the 50s and by the end of the 60s and the early 70s most of that was under control.” And I think of just nationally, anyway, a shift. Thinking about environmental consequences, and I’m only assuming, of course, that there was this national shift. But I don’t know if it was as pervasive, if it took longer a time in some areas. If people were resistant to the ideas. JN: Oh, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. That’s no question with that. But the federal government, the Congress did pass some very important legislation concerning the quality of the rivers and well, basically the waters of the United States. And I served on the, as Chairman of the Ecological Committee for the review of the legislation that came out in this area. The, I forget now the name of the act. But it had to do with the quality of waters that came out. And then, and some of the things that this act did was basically gave the charge to the Environmental Protection Agency, the charge to regulate the quality of the waters in the . . . For example, the Ohio River back in the 50s and 60s was basically an open sewer, and somebody estimated that the water that was taken out of the river for drinking purposes at Cincinnati had passed through someone’s bladder about 4 or 5 times. So there you go. The quality of the fish in the river was really something. You know, it was basically introduced carp in a river that at one time Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  8   �held some very important types of game fishes. And when the Act was finally enforced those game fishes came back. So you got up there to Pittsburgh, that was basically an open sewer and you can find black bass and muskellunge and things like that occurring now in the river. But they had been completely eliminated from the area before. So a lot of that work was really fairly important. And it was a substantial change in the way people looked upon their own waters. You know. The Environmental Protection Agency has done an awful lot in that particular area at that time. Until the Bush administration came on and then things went to hell again. Well, I shouldn’t say went to hell-- they became so damn lenient in allowing continued air pollution, for example, that caused a lot of the lakes in the US northeast in the New England states and New York to acidify. A lot of the waters in the lakes up there acidified to the point where it killed off a lot of the plants and animals in those waters. That was mostly a result from all of the manufacturing activity that was going on in the Ohio River area. The Ohio belt and the steel belt – the Rust Belt they call it. And up until the time the Bush administration came along there was substantial progress being made in trying to clean this up. Trying to clean up the air pollution in the area and so on. And when the Bush administration came in, why, they relaxed a lot of the rules for emissions or relaxed a lot or didn’t enforce them, basically is what it amounted to. LH: This is the current Bush administration. Not 1988, but 2000? JN: Yes, the stupid man that we have leading the country now [George W. Bush]. LH: Now were rivers out here in the, I mean we talked about the Ohio River, but were there rivers out here in the west that were . . . JN: Oh sure. We had the Bear River was a real open sewer for a pretty long time: starting up in Idaho and coming on down. The Bear River is an interesting river. It starts in Utah and comes on down and goes through Wyoming and then comes back into Utah, goes back into Wyoming, goes into Idaho and then comes back into Utah and ends up in the Great Salt Lake. But it starts up in the Uintah Mountains. And so there was a lot of activity that affected the water; number one irrigation diversion. A lot of that came apart and then grazers were allowed to hit the river and the river banks to a point where the river became fairly silt laden. A lot of silt was dumped into the river and that has slowly improved. The irrigation diversion has not, but it has slowly improved other than that. And grazers have been somewhat more careful about doing things on the river banks and in many areas the river bank has been fenced so that the cattle don’t get to it except at very specific areas where they could get to the water and so on. LH: Because of course that contributes to erosion. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  9   �JN: Yeah. Well that was – erosion was the result. When an area became overgrazed why, the erosion became pretty drastic. LH: Right. JN: And a lot of mud came into the rivers on that basis. We had, our graduates went to work for the Deseret Livestock Company which is a huge operation. It’s got 325 square miles of property on the Utah; I think it’s mostly all in Utah, border here in the eastern – northeastern part of the border. And they have a big chunk of land in the Uintah Mountains and they have a big chunk of land out in the West Desert. But the training that the people who went to work there got from Utah State University, the land managers that they hired really did a lot of things to improve things. Where, prior to really regulating the grazing, especially in the sump area and wet areas, the grazing basically stopped water production in those area. Now Deseret Livestock came in and they basically ponded many of those areas so that they have little lakes now up in many of these washes. And with a certain aspect of controlled grazing of cattle in the area, the way they do it now is basically put the cattle into an area and allow them to graze intensively for a very short period of time and then move them onto another area. That allowed some of those springs to come back up again. So where the springs have been completely dried up because the area was compacted by the grazing, the year round grazing was actually producing water once again. And so that sort of thing has improved substantially. Oh, one other thing that I should mention. This was done experimentally. Dr. Wayne Cook who was a professor in the Marine Science Department was trying to improve the grazing aspects of the watershed where many of the grazing areas were overgrazed, and when they were overgrazed a lot of the undesirable plants came in; like mule’s ear for example. Wyethia [mule’s ear] was a plant that came in and basically crowded out the grasses that the animals would normally graze upon. And Wayne’s idea there was to cover the area with a pesticide or with an herbicide I should say, to kill off the Wyethia. Being one of the nasty plants, one of the most nasty plants up there. And allow the grasses to come back in. Well, that worked fine except that the herbicide that he put in also was washed down into the Logan River where we used to have a really good stonefly population in the river. The so-called salmon fly. It wiped those out almost completely. Well it did wipe them out completely to a point where Trout Unlimited – members of a Trout Unlimited chapter here in the valley got together and gathered stoneflies from over in Blacksmith Fork River and reintroduced them into the river and I think that’s been fairly successful. That was done over the last 5 or 6 years. LH: Wow. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  10   �JN: Well, I mentioned the aspects that influenced policies in the Logan Canyon were basically the force of recreation use in the canyon basically crowding out the grazing use. That was a change of land use in that respect. There’s still grazing going on in the canyon but it’s been much reduced. LH: Since, I mean gradually over the last… JN: Well, gradually over the last few years. Yeah. The Wellsville Mountains over here on the west of us was really badly grazed. And we went over into the mountains back in the 1950s, the bare ground. There was virtually no vegetation growing on it other than the big shrubs. The oak, not oak but maple and conifers, so on. And a lot of that was being washed away, the ground underneath that was being washed away down into the valley bottom. Well, the Forest Service finally cut out the grazing in the area completely. The area, it’s a very steep mountain, and, matter of fact, in the United States it’s the steepest mountain range that we have any place in the United States. So they cut out the grazing on the darn thing and allowed it to recuperate. And as a matter of fact now it’s a wilderness area: The Wellsville Wilderness Area. LH: Hmm. So recreation is… JN: Recreation, I think, is probably the most important thing that’s going on in the area. And depending upon who the ranger is and his background that comes in to take care of the area, why, it tends to increase more and more toward recreation. I think the last ranger, the current ranger that we have in the area is a little bit more lenient on motorized use in the area than I would like to see happening. They’re supposed to, the Forest Service is supposed to open up any land use decisions to public discussion. And they try to get away from that. Of course the Environmental Protection Agency has a love of . . . let me call it the, well before a policy is put into action a study has to be made of the area that is being affected from an environmental point of view, looking at the specific impacts of it. And coming up with a decision as to what those impacts are and if the policy is one that would impact the environment too much, that lays the Forest Service open to suit. And many of the suits that have been brought against the land use management agencies, Forest Service, BLM, Indian Service, and so on, have been brought by basically recreational use, people like the Sierra Club, people like Trout Unlimited, various other land use agents or interest groups, have successfully knocked down some otherwise disturbing policies that could be taking place. So I think the agencies have become a lot more aware of the impact that whatever policies they make does have on public lands. And try to avoid, they try to avoid the suits as much as possible. LH: It’s different out here. You know just how much land is public land and who’s land is it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  11   �JN: Well, in the State of Utah 80% of the land in the state is public land. And that’s you know, there’s probably more public land in the State of Utah than any other place except Alaska. LH: Hmm. JN: [Reading question:] Have I ever tried to influence government actions? Yes I have. I became very active as a Democrat: ran for office three times for the State Legislature. Twice as a representative and once as a senator; and was defeated three times. I was chair of the Democratic Party here in Cache County for a number of years and a member of the state central committee as a Democrat. But this is, we are, the Democrats here who are very strong on land use issues have been defeated most of the time. But the State Legislature is really a dictatorship of the Republican Party. And most of the land use issue is really that is basically for land use. They would love to see the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management all privatized. And we’ve always been against that; that’s one of the reasons we don’t get elected to office. LH: So how do we affect policy in other ways? JN: One example is, I was appointed to the-- can’t name the, remember the name of the committee I was appointed to. It was a land use policy committee that looked at the utilization of state lands. When Utah was created a state the state was allocated, I think it was one section of land in each township. And so we have blocks – the state has blocks of land all over the state; checker boarded basically. And those lands were really misused. Number one a lot of them were in the middle of federal land so that a lot of them were in Forest Service lands or Bureau of Land Management lands and were really unaccessible to state management control. And where they were accessible the state really blew it. The state sold off the property in such a way that the state didn’t make much money. The monies that were supposed to have been made off of those were supposed to go to the school fund and support basically schools for the state. And when I served on that particular committee to look at this and come up with suggestions as to how this might be improved, the amount of money that was in the school fund was only like about $600,000; whereas, in the state of New Mexico it was almost a billion dollars. And we came up with a scheme that allowed the state, the State Land Board to the school trust, it’s called School Trust Lands Board now. [This] allowed them a good deal of latitude so that they could sell or consolidate their land so it could be more easily managed. And those proceeds that come off the sale of those lands or the utilization of them for grazing purpose and this sort of thing, that would build the School Fund, and the School Fund has been built now. It’s up into the millions of dollars where, over the last 20 years. I think it was about 20 years ago that we did this thing. And that was I think a fairly important move. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  12   �One of the things that happened on the Cache, for example, was that school trust lands existed in the Forest Service areas that the Forest Service agreed to trade off lands so that where the school trust land had been surrounded by school forest it could be blocked off into a different area and the area that had been school trust land would be reverted to Forest Service land. So in other words, there was a trade made and they’d trade off Forest Service land for School Trust lands and vice-versa. And a batch of trust lands was centered around the Beaver area, the Beaver skiing area that was basically taken advantage of as a recreation area now. So that they can develop recreation aspects of that particular area, which includes some summer home development and so on that the monies that are made off of it would then be reverted to the school trust lands. And that I think was a fairly important thing that I was involved in. We covered how the policies have been changing over the years. And I hope it continues to change in that aspect. I think one of the things that I would like to see happen is the Logan River and the Blacksmith Fork Rivers being considered as Wild and Scenic Rivers. And they’re still talking about putting dams up here in the canyon. That would be terrible if they did that. It’s a poor place to put up a dam anyways. The area is basically Mississippi and limestone which is really subject to water solution so that the area is undermined with caves and whatnot that leakage from a dam built in that area would be tremendous. And put my little house here in danger of a catastrophic flood if it should break. We are as it is, we’re in danger of a 500 year flood, which is pretty rare. That’s why I built here. LH: Wow this scenic river. Now that’s been proposed, I imagine, or are there… JN: Well yeah, we have proposed it as a Wild and Scenic River but the Forest Service has ignored us on that and I don’t know why. They should be really looking at it from a recreation point of view. And that would be a recreation thing. Of course I think the fact that it has some dams on it now, these basically run the river dams of our generation. And the highest one is up here at the Third Dam. But the river up above that could certainly qualify for a Wild and Scenic River. And it should be. And there are other rivers that come into both the Blacksmith Fork and into the Logan River. The Right Hand Fork is another one that could be classified as wild and scenic. Temple Fork would be wild and scenic. And that is basically being treated as such. There’s an interesting thing about Temple Fork and Spawn Creek that goes into Temple Fork. The Trout Unlimited has worked hard to preserve the Spawn Creek as a spawning creek for the native Cutthroat Trout in the area. [It] has prevailed upon the Forest Service to allow us to fence the river, Spawn Creek, away from grazing. And when the grazers come up in there they have a rider that’s supposed to be up there guiding the grazing. But they seldom do. They, would like to get them down to the green grass as much as possible. And they mash the hell out of the Spawn Creek to the point where it actually endangered spawning in the area. It’s a tiny little creek and it’s hardly any wider than this Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  13   �room in a lot of areas and the cattle were grazing right up to the end of it, right up to the bank and into the river, the creek itself. And the net result was that what had at one time been grass was turned over to various kinds of rushes that are not palatable to plant, to the cattle or the sheep that use the area. And so we prevailed upon them to fence it and they did. That was nice. Temple Fork is another one that the, I don’t think they’ve fenced that one yet. But they may end up putting some kind of obstruction on it. I know they wiped out the road that went along side of it and moved the road up on the mountainside a little bit further away from the river, which was important because the road was built over some pretty permeable soil and it washed into the creek. It should not have. [Reading Questions:] Let’s see what else is? Who were some of the most influential teachers that I had in the area and stuff in your field. Oh, there were quite a few actually. Starting back in Wisconsin it was Phillip Whitford who’s now dead unfortunately. But he really perked my interest in ecology and that’s where I became basically an ecologist even though I went to work as a fish manager initially and then later on as a aquatic toxicologist. But the aquatic toxicology part, well, both of them. Fish management did rely much on the ecology of the area and so on. And the toxicology part of it was basically an autecological approach to the populations that lived in these aquatic environments. Then out here, when I came out here, I think the major, one of the major men was William Sigler who was Head of the Wildlife Department and also my major professor in my graduate degrees and also a very close friend that we maintained through the years until he died. He was very important. Then I had two other mentors here on the campus that I felt were extremely important. They were not even in the College of Natural Resources. One was Wynn Thorne who was in Agriculture. He was an agronomist, a soil agronomist, but he was also head of the experiment station and he was just a marvelous scientist and he was a person who, you know, I just loved to associate with him. He was just such a neat guy. And the other one was Dean Peterson, who was Dean of Engineering. And he and I became very close friends and again he was a very open-minded sort of an engineer. Although he was a Republican and I was a Democrat. [Chuckles] That was the only difference we had between the two of us. But he influenced me a great deal, especially in the administrative areas. Those were the three I think most important guys that were my teachers. Then among my colleagues there were, well there was Bill McConnell who was my compatriot in the stream and lake survey stuff. He ended up being a professor at Colorado State University and we maintained the long friendship and peer relationship over the many years. He died here a couple of years ago. And then a lot of the people that were my peers are dead. I mean they died. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  14   �Oh I should point out that I had, I put together every year a group of alumni and we meet up in Bear Lake. We call ourselves the Mossbacks. They come from-Bill Mcconnell was one of them--from Colorado State, from Wyoming, from Idaho, from the state of Washington, from Alaska, from Arizona, and throughout Utah. There’re about, at our biggest number I think we had about 16 guys that used to go to get together up at Bear Lake. I used to rent a house up there and then some units, some motel units and then I did the cooking, and we’d sit around for two days and in addition to renewing the acquaintances we’d always have something to talk about. We were mossbacks so a lot of it was basically curmudgeon type talk, but a lot of it was also dealing with, discussing various land use policies, and in a very informal sort of a way. We’d sit around in the living room and then talk about these things, take walks and talk about them. And there were always some musicians in the group and we’d also play music and sing about them. That’s still going on. I’ve got the group getting together on May 9, 10 and 11th up at the Ideal Beach again this year. And I’m preparing an Austrian kraut dinner for them for one dinner and the other one is, oh it will be a beef dinner of some kind. LH: Nice. JN: Breakfasts are sour dough and quiche. Sour dough pancakes and quiche. Doing all the [cooking], you know that’s part of the old man’s thing. [Reading questions:] Particular stories. What do we have? Well, the critical policies that were enacted in the canyon was the creation of wilderness areas. We had the Swan Peak Wilderness Area, not the Swan Peak, the Gog Magog area up here and then the Wellsville area. Those were important policy changes that took place. Highway construction: we did have a big impact on highway construction in the area. And with Bill Helm’s initial phase in the lower portion of the canyon and then when they began the work on the upper portion, up above Right Hand Fork, we were very active there to make sure that they didn’t encroach upon the river in anyway. And the cost of building the highway was increased substantially. But we did manage to get the beauty preserved in the canyon. So that was an important policy thing that we were involved it that. And that was basically a citizen originated, well, I should say a citizen, it was not official input. Let’s put it that way. It was not agency input that was basically individuals. Although some of us were associated with the university, it was on our own volition that we went to work on this and tried to change the way of doing things. And we were successful. They increased the cost of the highway but it was well worth the expense. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  15   �LH: JN: It sounds as though the Legislature has always been, you called it dictatorship, I believe earlier. Like just this Republication bastion of … Well yeah. I am down on the Republican Party here in the State of Utah because it is ultra-conservative. It is use oriented, development oriented, and all of this sort of thing. And there are members of the party that are much more liberal, I should say, they’re not as conservative. And as a matter of fact, one such, [David] Hogue from Salt Lake City, he helped us a great deal when we were working to get a fish disease policy board established. That’s another story that was kind of long. A fish disease control was handled basically by Ron Goede in the Fisheries Disease Laboratory here west of town. And the private growers became incensed that some of the rules and regulations that were created by the laboratory. And Ron was extremely effective in getting this established nationally, not just as, within the state of Utah. So that various barriers were established disallowing any diseased fishes from going from one state to another. And the growers here in the state of Utah, the private growers, became incensed at that so they prevailed upon the Legislature to take that away from the Division of Wildlife Resources and put it into the Department of Agriculture, the State Department of Agriculture. And when they did that initially, they created a system that was dominated by private growers and basically under the dictatorship then, it was basically that dictatorship of the Department of Agriculture. Well we were incensed by that and began a movement to create input by the, continuing input by the Division of Fish and Wildlife—the Division of Wildlife Resources into disease control issues. And so we went to work and had this fish disease policy board created. And Hogue was very instrumental in that. He was a Republican but he was very instrumental in helping us do that. And he got so incensed with the conservative nature of the Republican party that he quit the party and is now running as a Democrat. So some changes like that have taken place in, and I’m going to send him some money so that… But at any rate we were beset upon again by the fish controllers. Which is a $600,000 a year business. And recreation fisheries is a $600,000, 000 a year business here in the state of Utah. And the main bone for contention is the spread of whirling disease, which we have been controlling very nicely in the state because of the fish policy board as it was created. But now the private controls prevailed upon the legislature to loosen that up substantially. And a guy by the name of Mike Noel from Kanab, who doesn’t have any water near him at all, is the guy that is responsible for following the dictates of the Farm Bureau in creating a program that is not very good right now. It’s in bad shape again. But you have these sorts of things going on politically in the state that are really difficult to handle from a really wise land use policy. And it pervades, it goes beyond the fisheries area. I mean it goes into virtually all aspects of land use. The Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  16   �ranchers, they feel like they have a special interest on the federal lands surrounding their area of operation and only their opinion should count; this sort of a thing. Mike Noel is a rancher from down in Kanab and with the State Legislature and he’s one of these people that does that sort of thing. When I sound bitter about politics in the State [Utah] then it’s because I am. One of the particular stories that I like to share, God, I’ve got so many of them. And I pointed out that I am politically active. Or at least I was. I kind of retired from it because I’m getting too old and my back hurts me too much to get out and do stumping. LH: We’ve covered a lot. Do you want to close with a little story or a little hope? JN: Well, I know one of the favorite stories I like to tell is when I left Wisconsin to come out here, before I left I went to say goodbye to a friend of mine who ran a sporting goods store just a few blocks away, half a block away from where I lived at the time. And as I walked in to say goodbye to him, he was talking to a customer there who just happened to mention Utah. Well, God, when he mentioned Utah my ears perked up since I was coming out here. And I bust into the conversation and asked him if he was, where he was in Utah. And he said, oh he’d just graduated from Utah State, he said. “Oh my God,” I says, “that’s where I’m going.” And this was . . . I asked him “Is there any good fishing out in that area?” And he says, “Oh yeah.” He says, “Right in the city of Logan,” he says, “or the town of Logan you can walk to some very good fishing.” And he described a spot. He says, there’s a beautiful spot with a nice fishing hole just above a fox farm. Well, there used to be a fox farm right across the river here. The farmer Liechty, he was raising fox and mink and the hole was right up here. And lo and behold, ten years later I bought a lot on the property and built my house on it. So that was from a story that occurred in Milwaukee of all places. LH: What luck. JN: What other stories. Well, a lot of the stories that we had were related. My early stories were related with my stream and lake crews. And we used to go out and do things. At that time the State Fish and Game Department, we were paid $2.50 a day per diem and that was, that was to buy our lodging and food and everything on the road. Well you couldn’t do that for $2.50. So we camped out all the time. And we would buy groceries and we’d, and then we’d make do with that. And we’d supplement our groceries with anything that we could catch that was edible. Or we thought was edible. So our crews would go out and we’d bring back to camp rattlesnakes that we’d skin and section and fry, cook, eat. Grubs that we’d dig out of logs and we’d roast those and eat those. Locusts; we’d catch those and fry those and eat them, that is, the grasshoppers. Oh, boiled owl. We’d catch an owl and boil it. You know what a boiled owl tastes like? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  17   �LH: No JN: Boiled owl. Yeah, we’d do all kinds of things like that. And then of course to entertain ourselves we’d, well, one of the guys would go out and we’d rob sparrow nests and bring the fledglings back to camp. And then train them to go falconing with. But you falcon with, we’d go after grasshoppers. Put them on your finger. They were a little bird. They were only about that tall; tiny little thing. And we’d go, “Kill, kill.” It’d go after a grasshopper and then we’d go and pick up the grasshopper from, and that worked out pretty well actually. LH: Did it really. JN: Yeah. And the other thing we had, we caught a big old golden eagle one time, which now is illegal. You can’t do that. We caught a golden eagle that had been stuffing himself on road kill jack rabbits. It couldn’t fly. So we put a fish net over his head and brought him back to camp. And then we’d feed him. We’d put him on a perch there and feed him. And we had a little sparrow hawk that shared the perch with him. This was a little sparrow hawk – like that and a great big old eagle like this. And the sparrow hawk, we put a piece of meat down between the two of them. The sparrow hawk would go like this and go peep, peep, peep. And the big old eagle looked down and go peep, peep. The little sparrow hawk would fox out the, bluff out the eagle, got the piece of meat. LH: Wow. JN: Oh and we’d have altercations in the field. Bill McConnell and I also took on a lake rehabilitation task that was basically done in Panguitch Lake and Navajo Lakes in Southern Utah. Why, those lakes were taken over by Utah chub and they were basically trout lakes. And we couldn’t, they couldn’t support trout anymore so what we did was to go in there and reclaim the lake by poisoning out the chub. We’d use Rotenone which is a toxin that was taken out of the cubé root of the cubé plant in southern or in South America. It would be powdered up and then dumped into the water with an emulsifier of some kind. And it would kill all the fish that were in the lake. And then we’d start over by putting in just straight trout. And in doing that, let’s see, how many times was I accosted? I was accosted three times in the state of Utah by rifles. One guy had a pistol. And trying to get work done and I remember one, down at Panguitch Lake, there was a spring pond that had to be cleaned out and it happened to be on private property, and the cabin was on it, and it was inhabited. And I went up there and the guy knew that we were doing this apparently. And he came to the door with a 30/30 and put it in my chest. And I had to talk like a Dutch Uncle before he finally allowed me to clean out the pond. And the other time was on Strawberry Reservoir when I was, had a crew out there. We were building a fish ladder so that we could access a stream for spawning purposes. And it happened to be right through a fishing camp that was built there. And the owner of the camp was really getting nasty with my crew Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  18   �out there. So I, I told him to layoff. And I told him if he didn’t layoff he would end up getting a bath in the river. And he came out with his pistol and he threatened me with his pistol. And I went over there and tried to grab him by the collar and he turned around and ran. LH: So there. JN: I was a big guy. Well, I was a big strong guy. I was a paratrooper during WWII and was strong as a bull so I could do a lot of things like that and get away with it. I was a big person. LH: [Laughing] Wow. JN: Oh. There’s so many stories that I could tell. Here in the Cache most of it was really pleasant. I hunted a lot up here and fished a lot in the stream. And of course I had my students fishing in the streams up here, or working in the streams up here. I had a lot of good times. When I was an Assistant Professor here I used to, I had a laboratory in the old part of the Natural Resources building, that is the blue panel thing that was there. And I was the first person to move in there. And then I had a laboratory down in the basement of that building. And a bull pen that I housed my students in and we’d, every morning we’d get together and spend most of the morning hashing one thing over or another. There’d be half a dozen students and myself. And it was basically a kind of a free forum. Discussed just about everything, you know. It was fun. We learned a lot. And the thing is that the students also, because of that kind of a communal arrangement, partially because of it, and the fact that I was pretty liberal about letting them do things that they liked to do, they’d help each other out a lot in the field. The guys would get out there and help one guy up at the, working over at Hyrum Reservoir was trying to, gill net fish out of it, so a group would go over and help him with the gill nets. Some guys working up at Bear Lake and they’d do the same thing you know, and so on. And every once in a while we’d have a party; we’d hold the party up at Guinivah. One of the guys would get a beer keg from over in Wyoming, and then we’d if we caught a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and at this particular time you caught a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and bring those over and we’d clean those up and fry those and my wife Ruth would end up making a bunch of potato salad and other wives would bring, it would be kind of a catchall of everything. We used to have a marvelous time. And that was a little bit different than what it is now. The students up here now tend to be pretty much independent, they don’t tend to help each other a lot. At least that’s the way it seems to me. Of course I’ve been away from it for pretty long. I retired 19 years ago. LH: Wow. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  19   �JN: Well, retired is one way of saying it. But I went on emeritus status in 1989 and then for the next three years I worked pro bono for the university writing proposals. LH: All right. JN: So there you go. LH: They lure you back. JN: The reason I came out here in the first place, I guess, was kind of an interesting one. I was president of the Forestry Club at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. And as president it was my responsibility to bring together once a month a speaker, and one of the speakers that I brought together was, or brought to the University was the Regional Forester for the US Forest Service in that area, in the central part of the United States. And after he gave us a talk about how nice it is to work for the Forest Service and all that sort of stuff, I took him aside and I said “Where would you suggest would be a good place to go to school in the forestry or the natural resources area?” And he said, “Well, you ought to consider my alma mater,” he says, “Utah State.” And he says of the nine regional foresters, seven of them are Utah State graduates, and the head of the Forest Service in Washington is also a Utah State graduate. So I said, “My God.” With that kind of a reputation I’d come out here and go to school. And I did. Well actually it was a very tiny school. At that time it was, let’s see. Faculty members, in the Wildlife Department there were three faculty members. In the Range Science Department there were three faculty members, and in the Forestry Department there was one, two, three, four faculty members. And so it was. And then there was a Dean of the College: Dean Turner (Louis Turner). That has grown into, oh my goodness, I don’t know how many faculty members we have now, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 or 50, something like that. And you know a big student component. Actually we were the first college to produce a doctoral student in the entire university. LH: Really? JN: Kim Wolfe was the first Ph.D. And he was in the aquatic, he was one of Dr. Sigler’s students. Bill McConnell was the second Ph.D. earner and I was the third. And this was in the entire University. So we kind of were pioneers in developing the graduate program at Utah State University. Oh I should say another mentor of mine was Stewart Williams who was the Dean of the Graduate School at that time. He and I became really good friends, and he was a geologist and I’ve always had a kind of an abiding interesting in geology of this particular area in particular. And so he took pride in the fact that he was Dean when the first PhDs were offered by Utah State University and they were offered in our department. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  20   �LH: That’s nice. JN: High jinks; had a little student high jinks. We did; a lot of students here. But I did my undergraduate work here. My last two years on it, sophomore and senior as an undergraduate student. And we always had a battle between the engineers and the foresters. We called ourselves the foresters at that time. And we’d play all kinds of high jinks on each other. The engineers who used their engineering talent at one time turned a bunch of chickens and sheep loose in the old forestry building, which is now gone, it’s no longer here. And then they bricked up the entrance of it. This was during the night. And we came there in the morning. We had to break down the brick walls to get into the building. And then found it was loaded with sheep and chickens. And then of course we did the same thing to them. Some things were kind of cruel. Like the cruelest thing that we did, I wasn’t involved in that because I couldn’t have done it. But they took a horse in the engineering building; an old nag that was over at the mink farm, and then killed it in the men’s room. They had to drag a dead horse out of the building. But those things don’t happen anymore. LH: Oh! JN: So you got enough? [Reading question:] Oh, books or writings that influenced the land use. LH: Oh yeah. JN: Well of course there was always Leopold’s. LH: Sand County? JN: Well no. He wrote initially a book on wildlife management. [Game Management] That was the important book actually. The artsy book was his Sand County Almanac. He did another one that was finished by one of his sons. Moon River [Round River] I think it was called. LH: Oh yeah. JN: That was one book that influenced me a lot. Then there was a book on animal ecology. There were not very much written about ecology at that time. The book on plant ecology by Üosting from Duke University was available. There was a Weber and Clements that was written by Weber at the University of Nebraska and Clements who was part of the Ally, Emerson, Park, Park, and Schmidt book that was written on animal ecology out of the University of Chicago. And that was about it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  21   �Oh, there was another thing that I did in ecology. I looked into the origins of ecology on the Utah State University campus. And that was, I looked into our archives and wrote a little piece on the origin of ecology. [Ecology Center review documents: USU Special Collections 17.12:63 NO. 20] It turned out that there was a professor that was hired from Cornell University in 1902 that taught the first course in ecology on the campus. And it was fairly short lived because he wasn’t here that long. I think he was here only about three or four years. And then when he left the course was no longer taught until I think the late teens, when, I can’t recall his name right now. But he started, he was in range management and he started and taught a course in plant ecology. And that kind of persisted, I think, through the years until we got the first dean and then the school of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management was created in 1926. And the dean of that school later on became the Chief Forester of the United States. And he was followed by Ed Cliff who was from Heber City and a graduate of this institution who became the Chief Forester. (He was the Chief Forester when the Regional Forester told me that I was, or that this was one of the best places to come because of the reputation of the Regional Foresters and the Chief Forester.) And Ed Cliff was an interesting guy. He was a Mormon; he was from Heber City, Utah, and graduated from this institution when he became the Chief Forester. Well, he was a forest ranger here first. And he, he and his wife spent their honeymoon at the Forest Service cabin at Tony Grove. The cabin is still there. And so actually it’s a historical site now. And it’s still active. It’s still being used as a, by the Forest Service as a base of operations of one sort or another. But it was a very primitive thing, you know. They had a wood stove in there that served as a cook stove, these big wood ranges. When he [Ed Cliff] came back and looked at, when he was Chief Forester of the United States, and he came back to visit the ranger [up at Tony Grove] that was present at the time [thinking of his name]. (Oh god, he’s retired down in New Mexico now. I can’t remember his name either again.) But anyhow, he happened to be the ranger out there and they had replaced the wood stove with a gas operated, propane stove and so on. [Chuckles] And when Ed came out there and he saw this and he said, “That’s unmentionable. You should not have a gas stove. There’s got to be a wood stove.” And he ordered them to take the gas out and put the wood stove back in. So it’s still there. It’s a wood stove and if you want to cook back there you have to cook on the wood stove. LH: That’s awesome. JN: There were a lot of colorful people that came out of this institution. Well, many of them worked here initially as, related to the forest, or they worked on the forest. In the late 1920s and through the ‘30s the CCC, the Civilian Conservation Corps was really active here. And a lot of the people that became well known in the field were part of the CCC operations. Ken Wolfe who earned his first, was the first Ph.D. granted out of the Utah State University was a bad boy in Chicago. See, he was from Chicago. He was a bad boy. He was given the choice by the judge to Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  22   �either go to jail or join the CCC and he could come out here and do some work out here. So he opted to come out here. Well, he not only came out here and went to work for the CCC, he met his wife out here, got married and when he got into the service he became a Lieutenant in the service, discharged. And when he was discharged he came here and earned all three of his degrees here at Utah State University. And he became a world-renowned virologist, especially in the aquatic area. He worked out of Leetown, West Virginia [Leetown Science Center]. Wrote a number of books on virology and was the first to develop a cold water cell line that they could deal with in the laboratory. LH: The bad boy from Chicago. JN: The bad boy from Chicago. Yeah. When I started off school here back in the late 40s we were all, all of these students were returned veterans. And it was quite a different bunch. They all became, upon graduation they all achieved leadership positions one way or another in the field. We had Bud Phelps was one my costudents, he became Director of the Fish and Game Department here in the state of Utah, and then later on was Director for Ducks Unlimited. And Don Smith was a football player here. And he became Director of the Fish and Game Department here. I think most of the directors of the Fish and Game Department that we had here were graduates of ours. But then we had [graduates that became] Directors of the Fish and Game Departments in many other places. Iowa was another one that was one of our graduates. Ohio was another one that was one of our graduates. Nevada was . . . he was a graduate. He was a football player and Director of the Fish and Game Department in Nevada and one of our graduates. And they had a relatively big impact on the development of educated natural resource managers in the State. Up until World War II most of the resource managers that we had in the United States were basically patronage type people. They’d come up through the ranks as Fish and Game wardens of one sort or another, or when they went to work for the Forest Service, why, they were basically field hands to begin with and so on. But once the programs got started and they started educating people in the scientific way of managing the resources . . . why . . . A great influx came right after World War II when the veterans came back and the GI Bill allowed them to get an education in this particular area. So the field, the Fish and Game Departments, the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, all of those Federal agencies and state agencies became permeated with our graduates. And we were, Utah State was one of the biggest institutions developing these. There were other institutions that were doing the same thing but I think as far as really making an impact early on, Utah State was probably one of the biggest contributors in this particular area. So that was nice. LH: That is nice. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  23   �JN: It was nice to be part of it, too. LH: Yeah. Well. JN: That was kind of rambling but… LH: I like rambling. I’m sure I get the good stuff. Well it’s all good. Thank you so much. I think we’ve certainly touched on all this. This is such a rich, rich interview. Thank you. JN: Well, I’ll be happy to go over any part of it with you and clean it up somewhat if you want me to. LH: That would be great. And, well, I don’t know that I’ll be doing the transcribing. I hope to a little bit. But no matter how it happens you’ll get a CD so you can listen to yourself and the transcript as well. JN: Okay. And make necessary changes or additions. LH: Yeah. Sure JN: Sure. LH: Thank you. Well then I will sign off of this. It is nice. It is 11:00 and closing the first interview with John. Thank you. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John Neuhold   Page  24   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/328">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/328</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John Neuhold interview, 11 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource The interview includes some personal background information, but mostly discusses John Neuhold's professional life and education. He also talks about his mentors and work in Wisconsin, but mostly his work in Utah, including a project with the Deseret Livestock Company, working with fisheries, dealing with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at Utah State University and the politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neuhold, John M. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hilliard, Lyra Subject The topic of the resource Bear River (Utah-Idaho) Neuhold, John M.--Interviews Neuhold, John M.--Family Neuhold, John M.--Career in Ecology Logan Canyon (Utah) Plant ecology--Research Fishery management--Research--Utah Lake ecology--Research--Utah Stream ecology--Research--Utah Utah State Agricultural College--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews College teachers--Utah--Logan--Interviews Utah State University. Ecology Center--History Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction United States Highway 89--Design and construction Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon Recreation areas--Utah--Logan Canyon Environmental toxicology--Research--Utah Water--Pollution--Law and legislation--United States Water quality--Bear River (Utah-Idaho) Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Public lands--Utah Environmental policy--Utah Neuhold, John M.--Friends and associates Fishes--Diseases--Law and legislation--Utah Utah State University--Students--Anecdotes Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Logan River (Utah) Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Bear River (Utah-Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Uinta Mountains (Utah and Wyo.) Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah) Wellsville Mountain Wilderness (Utah) Navajo Lake (Utah) Panguitch Lake (Utah) Spawn Creek (Logan Canyon, Utah) Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah) Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah) Right Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah) Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6 Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd3JohnNeuhold Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d341243978d7f1d7086309a7471e26ef.mp3 1010d040329266f228f303f415248229 https://highway89.org/files/original/d0b6f76d4fe93ebd64933ed0299cc05a.pdf cf2c2934900274c42333de1c0b255a39 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Dave Baumgartner Place of Interview: Date of Interview: Mr. Baumgartner’s home in Lewiston, Utah 5 May 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross, 20 July 2008 Brad Cole; Randy Williams 15 March 2011 Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains information on the childhood, education and the career of Dave Baumgartner as a forester, the various positions held within the Forest Service and his views on management. There are many anecdotes from his personal experiences in managing in the Logan Canyon and Logan District of the Forest Service, including his attitudes regarding the road expansion up Logan Canyon and his idea to include land users when making decisions. Reference: BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) DB = Dave Baumgartner NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BC: Hi, this is Brad Cole, from Utah State University Special Collections and Archives. It’s Monday, May 5th, 2008, and we’re visiting today with Dave Baumgartner on our Logan Canyon Land Use and Management Oral History Project. Dave, I’m going to start off where I usually do and ask you when and where you were born. DB: I was born July 29, 1942, in Salt Lake City. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  1   �BC: Growing up in Salt Lake City, what are your memories of that? DB: A lot of open, abandon farm fields. My dad had a little tiny place with a big chicken coop in the back that he raised a lot of chickens. Then on the rest of the property he grew pansies for sale, and little junipers for landscaping. Behind our house from there all the way to Great Salt Lake were just a few farm buildings and such, so we roamed that country a lot. BC: And who were your parents? DB: My dad’s name is Heber Baumgartner. My mother’s maiden name was Allen. My grandpa came from Switzerland when he was two years in 1898, I think it was. He and his little family are my only relatives in Salt Lake City. BC: Really? Interesting. And then as far as you mentioned the landscape of Salt Lake, do you think that affected your future? DB: You know, ever since I was a tiny kid, I can never remember wanting to be a policeman, fly airplanes, or a fireman. I always wanted to be a forester from as far back as I can remember. That’s what I wanted to be. BC: As a family, did you spend much time in the outdoors, growing up? DB: My grandpa was an arborist and a horticulturist. He was the primary caretaker for Memory Grove, which is just off the hill from the State Capital, for most of his adult life is where he worked, there. And so he was kind of a man of the outside anyway. And so I remember growing up – we didn’t do what I would say is a ton of camping, but we did a lot of it. And we usually fished a little bit wherever we went. We hiked a lot in Big Cottonwood Canyon, up around Brighton, up to the lakes that are, you know, above Brighton there. In those days it wasn’t really busy. [Laughing] Not like it is today! BC: Do you have any special memories of that period at all? DB: You know, not really. It was a happy childhood, we had a good time. Even from our young ages we were allowed to go out in those fields. And we used to hike from my house all the way out to the Salt Lake Airport. They had an old airplane dump out there and we used to fly the old World War II torpedo bomber carcasses that they had laying around in that place! [Laughing] Then we hunted rabbits – I mean there wasn’t anything there, we could walk all the way to Great Salt Lake if we wanted to, but we usually ended up by the Surplus Canal, fish for carp and shot our .22s at whatever wiggled. My folks weren’t extremely wealthy, so we had, you know our, I remember, coal stoves and climbing into the house to get coal to put into the coal cook stove. That’s what heated Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  2   �the house too, for a lot of years. But you know we were just typical kids. We played football, we hiked a lot, broke our bones. Stuff like that. BC: You mentioned that you kind of had the goal to be a forester from a young age – DB: Yes. BC: When did you did you start pursuing that? DB: In high school there were classes that were optional, like botanies and zoologies, and those kinds of things. You didn’t have to take those, but I took them all. I took all the natural sciences that the high school offered. Which was basically those two, and chemistry and a few things like that. I wasn’t very good with chemistry, but the other stuff we were pretty good with. BC: And which high school was that? DB: I went to West High School in Salt Lake City. BC: And from there, where did you pursue your education after that? DB: Utah State University; graduated from there 1969. BC: And that was with a bachelor’s degree? DB: I had a bachelor’s degree in Forestry and also – it’s not a degree, but I took enough extra classes that I also qualified as a watershed specialist or a hydrologist. I wasn’t an engineer hydrologist, but a wildland hydrologist. When I actually got hired by the Forest Service, I was hired as a watershed specialist, not as a forester. I spent three and a half years on the Pike National Forest in Colorado as a watershed specialist. And then I knew that wasn’t where my career wanted to go. I wanted to work on the districts and in the woods, and not in the supervisor’s office. And so I spent my time there, you know, getting acquainted with the Forest Service, but as soon as I had an opportunity to go out to the district I took it. So I lasted there about, a little over three years, and then I went to the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. I spent in two places seven and a half years on that forest; three years at Dubois and three and a half in Cody. And then from there we moved to the Sawtooth in Idaho. And I actually spent seven and a half years there. And then I was the ranger here in Logan until [19]’93, and then in ’93 I had to go to the regional office! [Laughing] And I spent, I should put quotes around this, I spent from 1993 until year 2000, I retired at the end of the year 2000. They were fun years in the regional office, they were interesting years, but they were really discouraging years too as you saw the Forest Service begin to unwind as to what it used to be. As to what it once was into what it was becoming, and it was sad to see that change coming. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  3   �BC: Maybe explain that a little more, like you know, what it once was and then what it— DB: Well, when I started with the Forest Service in 1969, through the late 60s and through the early, well even through the 70s – and you’ll recall this – there were many people that made and awfully lot of money writing books on how to run a successful company. Those books were really good books. I was convinced when I read them that if I had an opportunity to lead a unit, and I could use the characteristics that you read about in those books, that we would be more successful than not. The Forest Service in those days was just coming off the peak of its glory, so to speak. Those writers and people in that field of management were selecting on an annual basis, you know, the ten top companies or organizations in the country at that particular time, and the Forest Service, surprisingly not, was one of them. It had a great spirit about itself; there was a great décor about the people that worked there. It was a good job. We enjoyed being out in the woods working with people and all those kinds of things. I don’t know what changed, to be honest with you. We started to bring in more people that were not necessarily forest, range kinds of folks. All the “-ologists”, the specialists that began to come in there in the name of diversity – I wasn’t sure how to react with that, but their attitude about work was different than the people that preceded them. There was not as much of a tendency to work long hours. You know we averaged 9-10 hours a day and never thought about overtime for a second. You’d leave early in the morning to go someplace in the woods that required time to get there and it required time to get home, so you’d get home at 8-9 at night, you know, and it was no big deal. But those employees that started to come in, in my opinion, in that time -- they had a different ethic. I don’t know that you could say they loved the woods -- it was a job in the field that they trained for – but whether it was their perfect job or not, I can’t say. But it did begin to change the Forest Service. One of the traits of really good companies is that most of the operating money is at the ground level, where the work’s done. And you saw a tendency in the Forest Service to start to take more and more of their budget and put them into supervisor’s office, which funded the specialists that all the supervisors thought they had to have. It was a time in the mid-80s when all the forest planning stuff started to become the big emphasis and they all thought they had to have specialists in order to write their forest plans. What was interesting about the forest planning process, in my opinion, is that the Congress never intended the Forest Service, when they passed that law, to get as intense in forest planning as we got. There were times, I recall, when some of the planners wanted us to actually document the number of times we were going to clean an outhouse, that would be part of the forest plan to give us direction. I heard one staff officer say one time, “The reason we’re doing that is because you rangers aren’t getting the job done!” In other words, our campgrounds weren’t as clean as they should’ve been – and that part’s true, but that wasn’t the way to fix it. And so our plan started to get deeper, and deeper and deeper, and it took longer, and longer and longer to get them approved. It was interesting to me that by the time the process got from the start until somebody approved the plan at the end, many years had gone by and the issues had changed! And yet, we Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  4   �were operating with a plan that now wasn’t up-to-date. And you know you just saw our effectiveness being eroded away. People were spending way too much time in the office, doing planning, in a plan that wasn’t going to be current when it actually went out on the street. And so, I guess, a long story short is that it was wasted energy. The issues had changed and the plan wasn’t necessarily addressing what the current issues needed addressing. And yet, you were theoretically bound by the old plan when you needed to be in a different box, and the plan kept pulling you back to this box because that’s what’s written there – but time has changed and you needed to be over this one. And the arguments of trying to get back and forth between what’s real and what was old. I think it was wearing people out. Another interesting thing about that is that, and this again is my opinion, a specialist, when they came to work for the Forest Service (an “ologist” of some sort), with the exception of wildlife biologists (many districts had wildlife biologists, the ended up being an issue by themselves) the specialists in the supervisor’s office had no objectives. They were supposed to advise us in the woods from time to time. You know, we were supposed to go ask their opinion about cause and effect of some management activity we were involved in, and they would write an opinion. Whether we agreed with it or not didn’t matter, we did what needed to be done on the ground. It frustrated them greatly because some of them were more swung to the environmentalist side of things and they saw, timber activity for example, being very anti to the good of the forest. They were often opposed or very restrictive in their comments in how we would go about doing that business. As a side note, despite the fact that we’d been managing timber stands since 1905, all of a sudden, you know in the 1980s we couldn’t do it right anymore. With the caveat that it is true that in the 1960s there was way too much emphasis in the Forest Service and in the political processes for harvesting timber, that’s true. And many ranger districts and people working on their districts did some really dumb things that generated justifiable controversy, and justifiable reaction. The solution wasn’t the right solution. The way we went and tied up our hands so much that you couldn’t manage at all. And many of the “ologists” contributed to that confusion because of their backgrounds and where they came from and so forth, they would’ve been really good Park Service employees because that’s what the Park Service does. But that wasn’t the mission of the Forest Service, by law it wasn’t their mission. It got to the point where it was just a big argument to get things done. The effectiveness of the organization, I think you could plot an accurate curve that shows the Forest Service effectiveness declining as a result of those years. To this very day I’m not convinced, well I am convinced the Forest Service is just another government bureaucracy now, it has lost the prestige and the accuracy and the wisdom that it once had. Now we’re managing by a book instead – forest management is not an exact science, there has to be a lot of intuition and lot of creative thought that goes into managing those woods. When you try to do it from a book it’s not nearly as effective. I listen to a lot of my old compadres that are still working with the Forest Service and I know it’s not the same, and I don’t know that they’re as happy as we once were. It seems to be a struggle. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  5   �Even in the fire organization we used to escape to fires – what a wonderful experience that was! Not that the forest was burning, that’s not the point; but you had one objective, it didn’t matter what you got paid, what your salary was, what your position in the Forest Service was – you went away to a fire and you played a role and you focused on an objective. I might be supervising – at the time I might have been a GS9 [US Federal General Schedule (GS) Classification System], supervising GS13s – you know, the bosses! And I’m their boss on a fire, kind of thing. But nobody cared. That was never an issue! You never had to get out of your chair because some GS13 walked into the room, for example. But that does happen in some agencies, but it never happened in the fire organization. You just went, you did your duty, you put the fire out and you went home feeling good about it. But now they’ve got so many rules that those guys have to pay attention to, and so many checkmarks on a form they have to put on, you know, before they can proceed anywhere. They look at you and they say, “It’s just not fun. It’s just not working.” There are just too many handcuffs put on people now days. Anyway. BC: You mentioned you were the district ranger in Logan. What exactly is a district ranger? DB: This is what made the Forest Service the organization it was. World class organizations, according to the people that study this, only have seven or less line positions -- the Forest Service had four! World class and then some: a chief, a regional forester, forest supervisor, and a district ranger. The district ranger was the number four position in that organizational scheme. Everyone else who worked for the Forest Service, with the exception of the research branch, (in my day – it’s different now – but in my day) worked for one of those four positions. Generally speaking, at the National Headquarters there was the National Forest System (and that’s the side I worked for), then there was a research part that you know, that was an organization separate from the National Forest organization. Then there was a state and private organization that dealt with the laws and what have you that dealt with the government’s assistance to states in forestry kinds of issues. Those three basic organizations had their own organizations. So we’ll just push those two over to the side (the state and private and the research guys, because that’s not what I was) and I worked for the National Forest system side of things, and there was only four people in the chain of command. And everybody else on that side worked for one of those four people. So it was decentralized. As a district ranger I actually had more authority than the superintendent of Yellowstone National Park, in the context that they could not sign environmental documents in the days I worked around the Park. They had to go to their next level to get approval for all of this stuff. You’d ask the ranger, I could sign those documents up to you know, any environmental analysis that was done on a district the ranger had the authority to sign those in those days (it may have changed now today, I haven’t kept track of it), but in those days you know. We wrote the environmental statements and the supervisor would sign those. We had a lot of authority to do the business and it was a very effective way to do business. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  6   �So the district ranger’s responsibility is to, the National Forest system is organized into forests, of course -- the regions forests and districts. There are nine regions (although we have a number ten because that’s what Alaska is but there’s a region missing in there – I don’t think there’s a region seven – anyway, doesn’t matter). The regions then are organized into National Forests. Region four regional office is in Ogden, we don’t need to count them, but I think there’s about 16 or so without counting them up, National Forests attached to that regional office: in Utah, Idaho, western Montana and Nevada. That’s the area of the region. Then the forests are usually organized into, depending on the forest, into four, five or six ranger districts. Each ranger district then has the responsibility of management on – anywhere between 250,000 acres – I was on one district where the district area was a half a million acres. The ranger has the responsibility of the activities that take place on that district. Usually has, depending again on the district size, Logan had three assistant positions: a clerk, an assistant clerk, and some long-term but temporary positions. I think we had three of those. Then in the summer the workforce could expand, depending on what kind of budget was available to 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 seasonals that would come on and work during the summertime. We had the responsibility of all of that; their welfare, you know, their work assignments, the management planning that took place on the district. We did that. The Logan budget ran anywhere between, 600 to $900,000. BC: Wow. DB: Depending on the year. So you’re responsible for the budget and the money, and how it’s spent and all the physical integrity of all of that sort of thing. If somebody makes a mistake it’s always the ranger’s fault, that sort of thing. BC: [Laughing] When you started in Logan, what year was that? DB: I came here in 1984 as the ranger. BC: Okay. And what was the condition of the forest when you arrived? DB: I followed a dear old man, by the name of MJ Roberts, who had been the ranger here at Logan for nearly 20 years. MJ grew up in a period when the Forest Service was doing some interesting political things that, in hind sight, was probably not the wisest thing for us to do. So it would be easy to criticize that generation for the work that they did, but they did a good job based on the circumstances that they [had] to deal with in those days. The problem was what they left was hard. For example, during the 1960s and 70s, especially in the 1960s – and this carried over into the 70s as well – Congress was not funding the Forest Service as well as they had in the past. The Forest Service’s influence in Congress wasn’t as strong as it had been previous to that, and some of the funds were getting a little short. Congress had different things in mind: timber was one of them, watershed was one of them, and recreation wasn’t one of them. So as a strategy we decided that we wouldn’t put as much emphasis on our campgrounds either. We would let them just go downhill a little bit, and then Congress would recognize they needed to put more money there, and therefore they would! But they didn’t. So by 1984 when I Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  7   �came, the condition of our campgrounds was, they were in pretty bad shape. Our roads were in pretty bad shape; our trails were in bad shape. We were just out doing things, but we weren’t accomplishing a lot. My recreation crews, for example, I discovered – they would go to a campground and they would paint one table, then they would drive 20 miles to another campground and paint one table! We were making no progress and we were going basically downhill on those things. So when MJ finally retired and I had an opportunity to come here, I actually made a promise I would not say anything for six months, until I knew that my premonitions were accurate, and they were. So the issues that we had, especially in Logan Canyon, was the condition of our campgrounds and picnic grounds; the condition of our roads; the condition of our trails were a big concern; off-road vehicle traffic. We were getting about 12 new miles of unauthorized, new trails and roads created every year just by the off-road vehicle traffic. They were going into places they shouldn’t be going to, we had trails starting up all the ridges and up all the canyons that didn’t have roads in them. That was a big concern. And then in Logan Canyon itself we had a horrendous litter problem. I mean it was almost embarrassing to drive up the canyon sometimes and see all the messes that the general public had to look at. It was our responsibility, theoretically, to keep things neat and clean, and we weren’t doing a very good job with that. During my whole time on the district, those five issues drove most of what we were doing, with the exception of one other area that we can talk about later. The other area involved the whole district and not just Logan Canyon. And so with a limited budget and limited people, the great dilemma was, “how are you going to make progress in all of those areas?” That was the great dilemma. Another issue that raised its head, during my tenure there anyway was Logan Canyon highway. That wasn’t an issue when I first started, but right in the middle they decided they wanted to improve the highway for another section. After having put one phase in and then lost on the second phase, I think is the way the history goes, the environmentalists took them to court and the court shut the state down. They backed away from trying to improve the canyon. And then came back while I was there with yet another proposal that got very, very controversial for awhile. Really for some silly reasons – it didn’t have to get that way. We as government workers sometimes don’t make the wisest decisions all the time. So anyway, that’s what we were dealing with -- those five things. I was there for eight and a half years and those issues didn’t change. BC: What role did the Forest Service play in the Logan Canyon, the road highway? DB: Well, probably more than we should have could have or legally could have because the easement for the highway obviously was under the control of the state of Utah and the Federal Highway Administration. But technically once you got outside of the right of way, any impacts to Logan Canyon was an issue to us. We felt very strongly that we should have some input into the plan to improve the highway. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  8   �At the beginning I found out that UDOT was going to propose some improvements to the canyon from the newspaper – they didn’t even call us to tell us. And so they left notice of a meeting, I went to the meeting; I listened to what they were trying to do. When they were finished I walked up to the highway engineer who was a nice, cooperative fellow, and I said to him – his name was Lynn Zollinger – and I said, “Lynn, you’re talking about writing an environmental impact statement on a highway that you only propose to replace three bridges.” (The bridge at Right Hand Fork had deteriorated to the point where they needed to replace it; the next bridge up was too narrow; and then the big bridge at the dugway – I mean if you try to pass a semi truck coming this way, if you remember, and you were not too tight against the edge, mirrors could actually click past each other, it was that tight.) And they wanted to write an environmental impact statement and I said to them, “Why? The bridges are in place, they have to have maintenance. If that’s all you’re proposing, why are you going to spend $500,000 and write an environmental impact statement on something that doesn’t matter?” He says, “What do you mean?” And I said, “You could write an environmental assessment for less than $10,000, and replace those bridges.” And he blinked a little bit and said, “Really? I’ll even volunteer to write them for you.” So they went back to the Federal Highway Administration, and what an interesting experience that was! The Federal Highway Administration, their regional office for this area was in Salt Lake City, and they said to UDOT, “No, by golly! You said that this program was controversial, it’s controversial and you’ve got to write an impact statement!” So I went down there one time and I said to the engineer down there, I said, “If all they’re going to do is replace bridges you don’t need to spend $500,000 of the taxpayer’s money writing a document that doesn’t matter.” And the guy turned to me and he said, “What right does a forester have telling an engineer how to do his job?” [Laughing] And I said to him, “I’m not trying to do that, I’m just trying to save you some time, energy and money.” He says, “No. The state said it was controversial, it is controversial, therefore, and they’re going to write an environmental impact statement.” So they wouldn’t back off of that position. It was their money that the state needed to do the job, of course. So they came back and said, “We’ve got to write the impact statement.” So I told them, and this in hindsight might have been bad advice, I said, “Then write the environmental impact statement for the whole canyon. One project for the next ten years, and then you’ll only have to do it once. We’ll do the bridges, you’ll do passing lanes and other kinds of things that you might think are important and so forth, and it will work fine.” This is the interesting thing. (A side note on what I thought management and the public ought to be like.) I’ll tell you a little bit later on another issue why this is important. We knew the public was interested in what we were doing. And we knew that they were mad at us for not listening to them. So I told my staff, “Folks, we’ve got to go out of our way to talk to these folks and to discuss what the issues are.” So I went to the environmentalists who were opposed to anything in Logan Canyon, and I said, “Folks, they want to replace four bridges. They have to widen them a little bit because they’re deteriorating and we need to do something up with the dugway, it’s just absolutely too Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  9   �narrow.” And they basically didn’t disagree with that, but they didn’t trust UDOT. And so I said, “Okay. If I can get a member of your group to sit on a committee with the engineers that are planning all of this and if UDOT will agree that they will not proceed until they have an agreement in this committee, what will you do?” And they said, “Well if we can have a say and they will listen to what our issues are, we can’t oppose; as long as they’ll be a little bit flexible.” And so we had the solution. Except at the very first meeting where all of these people met, UDOT had hired CH2MHill as their primary contractor, and the CH2MHill engineer who was in charge of the project got up and said, “We are going to make the decisions.” And I thought, “You can’t do that, we didn’t agree to that. You’re going to lose the environmental community if you do that.” And they just would not back off of that. What they said was, “We’ll make the decisions, then you can review it. And if you don’t like those decisions, we can talk about it.” But they were never willing to talk about it in the sense that we could change it. And the environmentalists – they came to several meetings, and then the wall went up and it was not going to be possible to coordinate and to cooperate. We were that close! I had my fingers parted about 3/8 of an inch to having that controversy settled and to get the bridges fixed and then we would negotiate just some passing lanes somewhere. And it went from there to, you know, to the concept, “Well this is a highway, we have to have highway standards. We’ve got to have eight feet outside the white line, even in the middle part of the canyon.” That was the argument that started. We came back with arguments like, “But in Yellowstone National Park they don’t have eight feet on the other side of the white line. You concur that you can do other kinds of things but if you go that way, then you’ve got to fuss with the river again.” That was my biggest concern. I’m a fisherman. When I went to school here at Utah State University, I can remember in one of the classes that we went up Logan Canyon, on the old highway (before the first improvement section was actually done – because they built that just after I graduated) they had a famous hole they called “The Big Hole.” The road kind of looped right around it this way. And in that hole was a 15 pound cutthroat that they’d shocked out of there one day. In those days you could catch three or four pound rainbows and occasionally a large cutthroat and a large brown out of the river. It was a good stream. But when they built that second section, they began to straight-line the river. Their fill slope went right down to the edge in one area, which I’ll illustrate an issue it caused here in a second. But the Big Hole became a controversy in that first phase that they put in there. People were objecting that they were going to run the river straight down the edge of the highway and cut that meander out of the river totally. UDOT finally compromised and said that they would protect the hole. So they built two bridges that they didn’t want to build. The problem was they built the bridge to pass floodwater, but not in a hydrologic-compatible way to protect that corner. What they did was they built a coverted cement box and put the bridge over it. It would allow the river to go through it alright, but it constricted it greatly. So when you constrict water and blow it out the other end it’s going to come out in a great philosophy. And so it came out, was able to pick up the bed load and move it someplace. Just down stream from the Big Hole is the other Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  10   �bridge, which the fast water backs up against and slows down, and then shoots out the other side of it. But while it slowed down it dropped that bed load right in the middle of that Big Hole. And it’s gone. The river goes through there, but the prime habitat that was there for that one big fish, from a 10-15 foot hole went to two feet with water running over it. You know, the fish is gone of course. This cut-slope issue became an issue in about the spring of 1984 when I got here, that winter of ’83-’84 there was a lot of snow in the woods. When the water came out, it came out hard. Well, when the river comes up it spreads out over its little floodplain and there are no issues. We have summer homes here, here and here, scattered everywhere up and down that river, and there was enough floodplain that flooding of those summer homes wasn’t an issue. When that highway slope came down to the edge of the river in some places, and the water had no place to go except off the other side -- where all the cabins were -- we had water going through many of the cabins a foot deep through their front rooms and all that sort of thing. Anyway, we knew those kinds of things were going to be issues; they were issues in the past. And what they had done in the canyon caused some of those issues. We were hoping that we would learn from the past and do better things in the future. But the engineers that were working on that at that time – I’m telling you that they’re good men – but they’re engineers. As a forester I can say this, because there is a controversy between foresters and engineers on who knows best of how to do things. Engineers are good at building things, but foresters have a little bit better sensitivity to the land. If engineers had that same sensitivity there wouldn’t have been a controversy up there. So anyway, through the middle part of the canyon there was attempt to get the road wider and wider and wider. And there’s no place to widen the road in there without massive cuts up the side of the hill and/or straightening out the river or massive concrete bridges that cantilever over the river so they don’t have to do any damage to the stream channel – which they do anyway because the flow’s not the same. That project, for those kinds of reason, just escalated and escalated and escalated until there wasn’t a whole lot of cooperation. UDOT was doing what they would do as engineers. To the credit of some of them though, they knew that there had to be some compromises there and they were working a very delicate balance between the compromises and what the Federal Highway Administration was going to require of them. I felt sorry for them like that, but they began to make decisions in closets and then coming out and trying to justify them in public. If you have time, I’ll tell you why that doesn’t work, and so forth. Bottom line of the long story is that they improved Logan Canyon highway and they did a remarkably good job doing it. Yes, they backed off of some of the things they wanted to do, but they were able to do some of the things that the environmental community opposed, thinking that it was bad, bad, bad. Once it was built you could see that they really didn’t do any damage and they really did improve the highway. We have some passing lanes where there weren’t passing lanes before on some flat country. You know it worked out really, really well. I think the bottom line of all of it is that UDOT was able to improve that highway just about as well as they wanted to and could’ve done. The issue was they could have done it at the beginning, $500,000 cheaper had they just realized that Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  11   �they had a public that was concerned. If they would’ve worked just a little bit differently with the public and listened to them a little bit, responded in a positive way, they wouldn’t have had to spend over $1,000,000 to complete the document. The $1,000,000 would have built all three bridges. [Laughing] And would’ve done a lot to improve their highway, and yet they put it into the paperwork, and then still had to spend the money to do what they probably could’ve got away with anyway had they managed it just a little bit differently. Now I get criticized sometimes for criticizing UDOT that way. I don’t mean to sound critical of them, but I’ve been through the experiences that they contributed in the canyon issue. And I knew what could work and what couldn’t work. The sad thing was is they just couldn’t or wouldn’t listen and respond well enough to allow those kinds of things to work in their favor. So they’ve got big walls built, their thick, hard steel reinforced concrete walls – anything they do in that canyon now they’re just not going to get any cooperation from people that might oppose them automatically because they don’t trust the highway engineer -- which is a shame because like I said earlier, there are some really good people there. They don’t deserve that kind of criticism. But on the other hand, they brought it on themselves just by being too autocratic in the way they did their business. Logan Canyon ended up being one of the most interesting and the most difficult of all the assignments that we had. The Forest Service isn’t clean in this either. The supervisor got tired of UDOT engineers complaining that our district was requiring them to do too many little things. I stood right in the middle of them and told them they weren’t going to do this and this and this, they had to consider this. And they kept asking me what authority I had to do this. I don’t know if I had any authority or not, I just said it. They finally put the Forest Engineer in charge of the Logan Canyon issue and backed the district off a little bit, which I thought was a mistake. It further built the walls a little bit thicker. Our Forest Engineer was able to work with the highway engineers, but so could we. But it was engineer to engineer instead of a different disciplines trying to work out, you know, a “better vision” so to speak. But again, the bottom line is they built what they could have built, they built what they needed to build. They could’ve done that in the beginning had they been a little bit more open with the public, in my opinion, and we would’ve saved the taxpayers several hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. I think that’s what bothers me the most. I knew they were going to build what they were going to build. And I knew that it was okay, what they were going to do. It didn’t need to cost so much extra money just in the process of getting it approved, in my opinion. BC: You described kind of a process where you tried to get all parties at the table in the beginning of that. Did you successfully use that same system on other, like travel plans, and things like that? DB: Yes. Travel plan is probably one of the things I think the district should be the proudest of all of their accomplishments during the [19]‘80s and early ‘90s. It came to pass in the most interesting way. My whole career goal, for example, I wanted to be a district ranger. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  12   �I didn’t want to be a forest supervisor, I didn’t want to go to a supervisor’s office, I didn’t want to go to the Washington office; I wanted to be a district ranger. I’m not egotistical when I tell you this, and I’m not boasting when I tell you this either, but that’s what I trained for. I read management books that lots of people read, and I read them several times. I knew what it took. I knew what successful organizations did. I knew what successful bosses did. I tried very, very hard – these aren’t my ideas, they’re other people’s ideas – but I was impressed with them enough to think that I needed to try them. Most changes in management styles take three or four to five years to implement. And if you get discouraged in that timeframe and don’t get to the fifth year, they’ll throw them out saying it was a bad idea when it really wasn’t. You just have to be able to stick to it for that long. One of the things that makes an organization successful is their exemplary customer service, I mean they bend over backwards for their customers. The Forest Service customer is the person that uses the woods: the camper, the hunter, the fisherman, the person that drives up and down the road just enjoying the scenery. Another trait is that the boss managed by wandering around. He knew what was going on. He didn’t sit in an office and have people report to him and then make decisions on somebody’s spin to an issue. He was there; he knew what he was looking at. So I spent an extraordinary amount of time in the woods. My supervisor used to get after me, “I want you to this meeting!” “I can’t be to this meeting, I am going over here.” And I resisted going to meetings a lot. And/or when she called on the telephone I was never in the office. And she said, “I know you’re out there doing your duty, but I need you!” I couldn’t do that. Our district motto was “The highest quality money could buy.” And our mindset wasn’t there. That’s why I told you about painting the tables. One in the campground and one in another campground doesn’t make the campground look good. So I knew what the crews were doing and I knew what the people in the woods were thinking, because I went and asked them. During hunting season I would get in my pickup truck and I’d stop at every hunting camp and I’d walk in the hunting camp. Sometimes it was hostile. But this is the way I learned about what I’m going to explain to you here in a second. I walked into a hunting camp one time in Temple Fork. They had their campers parked with their rear ends out over the creek, and they were beating up the bank (not any worse than the cows had done, but you know) they were in the wrong place. I wanted to ask them if they would be really mad if we rocked an area 10-20 feet off the edge of the creek so they couldn’t park quite so close. But before I ever got that out of my mouth, the guy says, “What are you doing here?” And I said, “Well I just came to visit and give you a garbage bag and talk about picking up litter and keeping off-road vehicles on the roads, this sort of thing.” He said, “I want you to know you’re in hostile territory.” I said, “Why is that?” The guy was angry, but he wasn’t mean, you know? And he said, “Let me tell you this story. My family, extended family had been camping in Logan Canyon for 50 years.” (This was in the late [19]80s, so it goes back 50 years from there.) And he said, “A couple of years ago.” (Just before I got there.) “You closed our camping place.” It was just a dispersed spot. They drove down an old road and there was a little flat they camped on every year, three or four, five, six times a year, and then hard during the hunting season. We were closing roads because we were getting too many of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  13   �them, you know, unauthorized. So they moved to another location and they hadn’t been there two months before a sign went up saying “This area is closed to camping.” They moved to another area and we did the same thing (and this is over just a couple of years). And they moved to another area and we did the same thing. And then they ended up here on Temple Fork. And they said, “If you’re about to tell us that we’re going to move one more time,” he said, “I’m going to shoot you.” [Laughing] But he was kidding! But he was making his point. And I said, “That is really interesting.” And he told me some other families that were having the same issues. And so I went to those families, actually went to their houses, and I talked with them about that. And sure enough they had the same concerns. At that same time we were starting the travel plan process. And we had to identify all the roads we wanted to leave open and all the roads that we were closing. We potentially had 300 miles of road roughly I think we figured out, that we were going to close. We kind of had it in our mindset which ones they were too, because they were all the unauthorized ATV roads. And so when we visited with them, we got the notion (I did anyway) that they would like to have a say in this. The typical Forest Service method of travel planning was we’d go back in the office and the district personnel would draw the roads on the map. And we’d say, “Well leave this one open and we’ll close this one.” Then we’d go to the public and try to justify it. They had no say in it and the first time they saw it on the board was at the public meeting. They would look at it and of course they were opposed; their favorite road’s being closed and nobody could tell them why. So we did it differently. We took our map and we took every road off the district. We just took the whole road system and took it off the map; there were no roads on the district at all. Then we put the obvious main roads back on – the ones that we’d spent hundreds of thousands of dollars putting in and maintaining over the years and our access to the woods kind of roads that would be there no matter what. Then we did something that no other district did as far as I know. We invited the public to come in over a long period of time and we asked them to tell us which roads they would like to see back on the map -with four criteria; and the public bought off on the criteria before we even opened up the process. Any roads you put back on can’t affect water, the streams; it can’t affect vegetation; it can’t erode the soil; it can’t affect wildlife; and we can’t have more than 1.5 miles of road per square mile. And the public said, “Those are fair criteria.” So it was a piece of cake. People walked in the door. The old families that said, “I’ve camped on this spot” (and point to the map) “and drove down this little road, it goes down a rocky old ridge to this little campsite; I would like you to open that road or leave that road open. It’s just one road.” They didn’t care about the rest of the district, just the one road. You went through those five criteria. If there were no issues with those five criteria we said, “Okay.” And they would blink and some of them would say, “You’re kidding!” No! It met the criteria, that’s what we agreed to, so we drew it on the map. By the time eight or nine months had gone by (we left it open that long), we had the road system on the district that most interested the people in the district. That was the important point. I mean, 100% of the public didn’t come in – maybe only 20% came in, but those were the ones that would cause the most issues if an issue were to be had. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  14   �Rudy Lukez – do you remember Rudy? BC: Um-hmm. DB: Rudy who was the local Sierra Club leader? Worked with us day and night on that thing. I respected Rudy a lot, he was fair. And when we got to the end of it and said, “Rudy, this is what it looked like.” He had no argument except for one little motorcycle track around Logan Peak. He said, “I want you to close that,” and I said, “Rudy, why?” “Well because--” the criteria comes to effect, it doesn’t affect any of those kinds of things. The folks who ride a motorcycle do need a place to go. And he reluctantly said, “Well, perhaps. But don’t be surprised if I don’t appeal your plan.” Anyway, there was a little idle threat there. So we said, “Okay Rudy. You do what you need to do.” We published that; put it out to the public. We never had one appeal on it, not one, not even Rudy. We were just tickled to death! I mean, the process worked! You listen to the public, you respond to them in ways that are positive. If you can implement some of their ideas and kind of work with them on some of their concerns, they’ll support you. And they supported us. We didn’t get one appeal. Every ranger district around the Logan District: Montpelier District, Ogden District – eight, nine, ten, 12 appeals apiece; takes months and months to get them all resolved. Then you’ve got a travel plan that’s still controversial because people still aren’t supporting you. They tear your signs out, they drive behind the barriers anyway because nobody’s going to tell them what to do. We had a minor problem with that on the ranger district here in Logan. Some of our signs did come out on a regular basis, but we made it a priority that this is one of our important things – the travel plan was – if it’s going to work we’ve got to enforce it fairly. So we all carried signs in our trucks with us. We all knew which roads were supposed to be open and closed and if the sign was missing we put one up. The first year we probably lost one a month, the same sign every month on a road. The next year we might’ve only replaced it twice. By the third year we weren’t replacing them at all. The public was beginning to support us. Most of the activists in the valley were supporting us, in their club meetings and stuff they were telling people that they needed to behave and so forth. And it was working. We were really proud of the way that it was working. If you were to interview Garth Barker, for example, I think he would say (maybe I’m being too bold in saying this), but I think he would say that during that timeframe they were comfortable and very, very pleased with what that process did for them, and were really comfortable with it up until about maybe 1995-96 when one person on the Logan District said, “We are going to review the decisions in the travel plan and the Forest Service will do this process and then we’ll take it to the public.” And I can remember Garth writing in the newspaper, or somehow I heard some background on it, “no, that’s not we agreed to.” And the Forest Service did it anyway. And they’ve been gradually losing the public ever since which is sad to me because it doesn’t have to happen but it is happening. Anyway, that’s the travel plan thing. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  15   �BC: Seems much more contentious now when you read about it in the paper. DB: Oh yeah. The walls are very, very deep and they’re very, very thick. Cross-country skiing and snowmobiling are two controversial things that occurred even during that time there. I knew it was an issue, I came from the Sawtooth NRA [National Recreational Area], and just before I got there snow machiners and cross country skiers were having a hard time getting along with each other. Somehow, (I don’t know who organized the meeting) they came together and they made some agreements that worked for them. The snow machiner needed early snow and the early snow of course is in the high country. But once it snows up on the Sawtooths, the whole valley is full of snow and the snow machiners can go anywhere and they agreed to back off the high country when sufficient snow was in the low country. Then the cross country skiers (there were a lot of downhill cross country skiers in those days there) would be able to ski off the road edges and down to the road below and drive back up and do their thing. You know, it worked marvelously. So I knew they could get along. And so we already had wildlife closures in the travel plan and they weren’t controversial they were protecting a few elk winter areas and the snow machiners knew that was realistic and it wasn’t an issue, they could get around them without a problem. Bunchgrass wasn’t an issue in those days because we wouldn’t let it become an issue. The cross country skier wanted the snow machines out of Bunchgrass. But no, the cross country skier was there before you guys were and you still can get off and out of their way. In fact you ski up their track and you ski down their track. But they’re not going where you’re going so we’re not going to worry too much about that right now. But the maintenance shed area was controversial. They were not getting along very well there. And I had both groups come into my office, not together but one at a time, and complain about the other one. I told them, “You’re not going to make this into a controversy and you’re going to have to get along because I’m not closing it to one way or the other, for these reasons: the snow machiner goes up the road, up to Swan Creek and back and that country up in there, and they basically make a track for you to get to the deep, powdered snow on north slopes that you can ski down without – the snow machine can’t go there because it’s too soft, they don’t like to go there. They’re going to do the south slopes. Except for the day after a storm, the south slopes are going to crust over two or three days in bright sunshine and it’s hard to ski south slopes on cross country skis, as the technology was in those days. And the snow machine guys are just doing their thing. They’re looping, looping, looping and climbing high up on the hill and having a good time and coming back down. And both of you are using the same country but you’re not in each other’s way. Is that not true?” Well they had to admit that. “Well we don’t like their smell and we don’t like their noise.” Be that as it may, it’s not really an issue because they’re not in the same place anyway. So I wouldn’t let it become an issue, and it didn’t. I feel bad that it is today, it’s a major issue today. And so is Bunchgrass a major issue today. But in my opinion, the reason it is is because the Forest Service again made the decision without talking to their public first. They tried to make a decision and then go sell it, and that is the worst way you could ever do anything in the Forest Service. If a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  16   �ranger makes a decision and tries to sell it to the public without any public involvement, that’s what he’s calling public involvement – he or she. That’s not public involvement. That’s telling people what you’re going to do and they have no input in it. If it is gets controversial you may not carry it out, but you also won’t implement good things that people could enjoy if it were otherwise. BC: I’m kind of curious; you talk a lot about the interface with the public. When you were becoming a forester and went to school was there any education on how to do public management? Because it seems like that’s a big part of the job now. DB: It’s a major part of the job and no, you know we came out of school as technically trained foresters. We were going to go to the woods and manage timber and wildlife – if you were a wildlife biologist – and cows and sheep and goats. But not necessarily people. If you were a forest recreationist and had a degree in forest recreation from Utah State University you had more of that kind of training, but you were also designing campgrounds and people flow patterns and trail maintenance standards and stuff like that. BC: How about, were you here when the Utah Wilderness deal went through--? DB: Yes, yes I was. BC: And— DB: I came after the negotiations were mostly done and just before the law was passed. BC: So how did that process, was it similar kind of -- ? DB: Again, it’s one of those sad examples of the public and the Forest Service not being able to talk to each other in a positive way. The boundary for Mount Naomi wilderness, for example, is in some places is not a manageable boundary. It has too many little wiggles in it to say that it’s wilderness here, but then the next little squiggle in it it’s not and then it’s wilderness, and so forth. And all the little cherry stems they put up the canyons, you know, so you can drive to a trailhead deep inside the wilderness that comes down both sides of the cherry stem. I was in one meeting with Tom Lyons (who represented the environmentalists at the time) and we were talking about a boundary in Green Canyon, down by Logan. The boundary comes down the Logan Canyon-Green Canyon ridge in a very narrow little stem that comes west towards Logan from the main part of the forest. In places you could almost throw a rock from the wilderness boundary to wilderness boundary. The forest supervisor and I were meeting with them in a meeting one night. The forest supervisor was trying to convince them that, “Let’s just draw the boundary across that little cherry stem and not worry about it.” And Tom would not buy it for a second. He said, “No, we agreed on ‘x’ number of acres for the wilderness. If we cut that out we lose 5,000 acres and we’re not willing to do that.” But he said, “It’s not manageable.” And Tom said, “You see all those trees” (picture Green Canyon, have you been in Green Canyon? So Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  17   �you know on that north slope as you drive up the canyon that you’ve got a cliff, some trees, cliffs and trees, cliffs and trees as it goes up that north-facing slope.) Tom was convinced that we were going to go cut those. I said, “Tom there’s not even any way we can put a road up there, even if that were a possibility.” He said, “No, we don’t trust you. You’re going to cut those so we’re not going to deal with you on this boundary change.” It was no big deal, we didn’t push it beyond that meeting and congress passed it the way the map was drawn and we’ve been dealing with it ever since. It’s a little interesting because, in my opinion, wilderness should be wilderness. You shouldn’t have a road in wilderness that Richmond city, for example, can drive their pickup trucks over to get to a well-developed water system that’s inside the wilderness boundary. To me that doesn’t seem wilderness-y. Or to have a road that goes so far up the middle of it for, you know, for whatever reason. But that’s the way it was passed so I guess that’s what we deal with. I don’t know if it’s one of the first, but it’s one of the early wildernesses new in the 1980s that did have those little extenuating uses allowed inside the boundary; mostly for municipal water systems. Some miners had access to patented mining claims inside the wilderness (not ours, but you know, others). BC: And then the other big issue that came along during that period was the STLA Lands? DB: Yeah, that came after I left. BC: After you left? Okay. DB: We were involved a little bit in the beginning. I took the Seth Allen (who was then the Cache County – what do they call it?) BC: Commissioner? DB: No he wasn’t a commissioner. He was what Lynn Lemon, the executive – BC: The county executive, that’s right, yeah. DB: Yeah. Seth Allen was the county executive and we toured the country a few times talking about those kinds of issues. But I left before the decisions were made to change them around. But you can ask – what I thought about them? [Laughing] BC: What did you think about them? DB: It’s very efficient to block up ownership so you don’t have the state sections inside the National Forest. If you can eliminate those kinds of things it just makes management for both agencies a lot easier. But the way it came to pass, you know, the political-ness of the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  18   �thing was a concern to me because the state’s objective is to use state lands to make money; which means that if summer homes made them more money than cows then they would develop summer homes. Or if there was a mine, some minerals, they would be a lot more open to managing the minerals because it generated funds for whatever fund benefited from that activity. And being in National Forest ownership I think we had a little bit better handle on making forests, forests and not open to golf courses and you know, more recreation cabins and so forth. So I was a little disappointed that something different wasn’t done around Beaver Mountain. We weren’t ever going to allow condominiums and that kind of development to take place up there. But with the state now in control of that stuff it can be a possibility, I’m not saying they’re thinking like that. But it’s a possibility. We wanted to purchase that 400 acres at the mouth of that highway that goes up to Beaver Creek. On the south side of the highway there’s 400 acres, 440 acres I think, of private ground in there. We wanted to pick that up really bad just to keep the urbanization of Logan Canyon to a minimum. I believe the county ordinances won’t allow much development in there right now, but of course they can change. I just think it would be sad to drive Logan Canyon and all of a sudden have to drive through a community, you know. That’s my opinion. BC: The other thing I wondered about – it seemed like in the early 1980s is the time period you saw a lot more women moving into the Forest Service and U.S. Wildlife Service and stuff. Did that happen with you and how was that change accepted or? DB: Well it wasn’t just women, it was women and minorities and specialists. All three of those were kind of in the same box, so to speak. I think that’s an interesting question and my answer is probably somewhat biased. I believe that the forester, whether it is a man or a woman or a minority, it’s not what they were, it’s what they are: a forester. Most of the foresters in the Forest Service, range conservationists as well, at that time were white males. It’d been 80 years getting to that particular point and to suggest that we automatically change the agency overnight to be this marvelous balance was 1) in my opinion, not fair to those people who’d already spent 15, 20, 30 years working and growing and learning and were most qualified for some of the leadership positions (not in every case, but generally speaking their backgrounds would allow them to take the next step up the ladder, so to speak). And to be replaced by a woman or a minority that had been in the service for five or six years didn’t ever seem fair to me. They didn’t have the experience; they didn’t have the background and so forth. So I had some fairly strong concerns about that. A forest supervisor came to me one day and said, “I want you to take one of your GS3 summer positions, and I want you to fill it with a minority.” And I told the supervisor I wouldn’t do it. He’d never been told that before, I don’t think, because the look on his face was of quite surprise. But what I had working on the Logan District at the time were people that had been on the district for a minimum of 10 years and many had been on for 15 years. And I wasn’t about to take that kind of an experienced person and put them out Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  19   �to pasture to tell them when they came back from whatever they were doing that they didn’t have a summer job because I was going to put a minority in that position, I couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t do it. But I told the supervisor, I said, “But you watch this district and I’ll bet you within a year we have a better percentage than any other district on this whole forest.” Because I knew the staff was working in that direction. They were picking up people that were qualified that would help the district succeed, not meet some quota. And yet at the end of the year we had a higher percentage of women and minorities working on our district than any other district on the whole forest. And we weren’t forced into it and we didn’t wave our red flags to see how great we were (whereas some of the other rangers were getting points for all of the attention they paid to that). We spent our time focused on the woods. And we hired people that could help us meet those objectives. And if a good young lady or a minority of any kind were qualified to help us do that we sought them out and we got them and we did get them. They liked working for the district. Then our percentages were higher than anybody else’s. And you know what? We never got one ounce of recognition for that. BC: Huh. [Laughing] DB: But we didn’t care. That’s not what we were seeking. We knew it was the right way to go. We knew it was the right thing to do. People needed to have opportunities to grow. They need to start somewhere, and we were willing to give them an opportunity to start, but it was on our terms not on somebody else’s quota. But it worked. I was really proud of the staff and the way they went about that. We had Native Americans, we had women. It was cool. BC: I had a couple of questions going back to when you went to school here at Utah State University. Who were some of your favorite professors when you were there? DB: I laugh because when I started forestry school, I started in 1960, and I went one year and I went on an LDS mission and came back in 1963. In 1960 there was Doc Daniels and Ray Moore – the two famous professors. When I came back there was still Doc Daniels and Ray Moore, Carl Johnson (and a few other names that I could think of but I’m not) there; a very small faculty and not very many students. And so we got to know Doc extremely well and we got to know Ray extremely well, really well. And then you can’t help but thinking back on those days about those two old rascals. Yeah, they were good guys. Doc was harder than nails. He was a hard professor. Unless you were extremely articulate and absolutely perfect he gave very few “A”s. But he loved us and then we respected him a great deal too. We knew he cared about us he just wanted us to perform the levels that we sometimes couldn’t reach! [Laughing] But Ray Moore was my advisor, I think for most of the whole time I was in school. I got “C”s out of Doc Daniels until all of the required subjects were over and then he taught some other classes that weren’t required and I took them anyway because they would help us in our background. And I got “A”s in those. He said, “If you’re dumb enough to take me after three years of silviculture” he said, “I can’t help but give you an ‘A’!” [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  20   �So anyway, those are the two guys I remember the most. There are others but those stand out. Both have gone now too, haven’t they? BC: Um-hmm. What about any influential writers or books you’ve read that stand out? DB: Gifford Pinchot wrote a book on the Forest Service; I’ve read that book twice. That’s probably the most influential book I’ve read about the philosophy of the Forest Service. It focused my mind on certain principles. But other than that, you look at our text books; they were all (let’s see I don’t even remember the name of them now. I remember the titles but I don’t remember who the printer was). I can tell you they were red books with the tree symbol on the front of them and they were the technical manuals that we all used in those days. I still have some copies out in the garage somewhere I think. But as far as books go, you know influence goes, I was more influenced by the writers of management systems; what makes good companies good companies and what makes good leaders good leaders – than I was by the books we were exposed to while we were in school. I’ll tell you one story though that’s interesting to me, that helped shape some of my background thinking too. When I graduated, as I said earlier, I spent three years in Colorado Springs doing watershed studies basically. The Forest Service had a lot of watershed money in those days, and I’m glad because I got hired off that money. I walked all over Pikes Peak for three years just doing type lines around vegetative cover types and so forth. But when I finally got back to the district I was assigned to the Dubois District on the Shoshone National Forest. Now I was the main timber sale administrator and I’d never administered a timber sale before let along read a timber sale contract. And yet I was dealing with Louisiana Pacific, 50 million board feet supply lines – 12, 20, 30 million board feet timber sales – and I had no clue what was going on there. The ranger at the time, his name was Harold Wadley, a legend in the Forest Service. That man could get more things done than anyone I ever knew! He convinced United States Plywood and then Champion Paper that they weren’t going to get 30 million board feet off the Dubois District anymore, they were going to get 1.8 million board feet and they did it without complaint. He was a marvelous guy. I told him one day, I said, “Harold, I have never administered a timber sale.” He said, “Doesn’t matter, I’ll tell you what to do.” He said, “You just go up to the woods and you take your crew stick and you measure stumps.” I said, “Measure stumps?” The contract required a stump height of 12 inches – you can’t be any higher than that, you can be lower. And he said, “You’d be surprised what happens.” So I went up there and I kicked the stump and I’d put my ruler by it and I’d measure it and I’d wonder on. I had no clue as to what I was doing. But later I discovered that the skid trail lines were now straight and on the line they were supposed to be, the roads being built where they were marked. The loggers were dropping things so that they could skid them out without knocking all the other trees over. And I would come back and it would be a mess and I’d start kicking stumps again and everything would just smooth out; a wonderful lesson. I remembered that ever since. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  21   �But I had marked a spruce stand one day. About 30 acres worth and this old logger had been sawing trees for probably 50 years – asked me one day to eat lunch with him and I said, “Sure.” After a little while he said, “Would you mind if I told you something?” And I said, “No!” He said, “I understand exactly what you did with these spruce trees, but I can’t cut them down. And the only way to get them to fall so that the cut off tree doesn’t fall on somebody unexpectedly is I have to go over to this next tree. I have to cut it and drop it into that clump of trees that you marked and knock everything down, including the good trees. And that’s not what you want.” And I said, “No, that’s not what I want.” (Just as a little background – spruce can grow as individual trees or sometimes they’ll grow in clumps. And if they grow in clumps, the outside trees are all wind firm but the inside trees aren’t. So if you cut out the outside trees the inside ones all fall down or blow over in the wind. So I marked all the inside trees to leave the wind firm ones on the outside. But the wind firm ones on the outside held up the trees on the inside and they wouldn’t fall down.) So he said to me, “Can I make a suggestion?” And I said, “Sure.” And he said, “Why don’t you just mark the whole clump, and then don’t mark the next clump, and so forth. And then you’ll still have that scattered tree system about here. They’ll all stand up. I can cut the trees down, we can get them out of here and we won’t do any damage.” And I thought to myself, “What a marvelous idea!” I’d never thought of that. And so that’s what we did and it worked out fine. Six months later from Colorado State University the main Forest Service researcher in Engelmann Spruce management came out with what was a brilliantly written marking guides for Engelmann Spruce. And guess what his suggestion was for clumpy spruce? Almost word for word with what that old man told me. BC: [Laughing] Maybe he talked to the same guy! DB: I don’t know! But I learned a great lesson from that old man. You know, there are people around here that know a lot more than you do, even though they haven’t been to college and you would do well to listen to them. That set my thinking about listening to the public too, in that point in time. BC: Um-hmm. DB: One short, other example. In Logan Canyon at Rick Springs, we used to have a flush toilet there. It was a big pain in the neck because the water system wouldn’t deliver reliable water supply. So it was always shut down and then people were relieving themselves in front of the doors and behind it, you know. It was just a stinky mess. And so the engineers came back to us and said, “Well, your water system doesn’t meet state standards and so we’re going to spend $75,000 to put a new water system in.” And I said, “You’re going to what?!” $75,000 of the taxpayers’ money to put an inch, basically inside diameter water supply to an outhouse that is broken down more than it functions! I said, “I don’t think we should do that.” Well the engineers thought that was their decision Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  22   �and not mine. I told them, “No it’s not your decision, it’s the district’s decision and we don’t necessarily think that’s what you ought to do.” So I went up there one day to ask the public what they thought. “If we tore that toilet out,” was the question, “what would be your response?” And the only two people in that parking lot were two ladies laying on top of their car sunbathing, scantily clothed. The kid with me said, “You’re not going to go up and ask them that question, are you?” I said, “Certainly I am!” So I went up there and I knocked on the side of the door and of course they jumped up startled and looked at me and I had my uniform on and stuff and they said, “Uh, what did we do?” “Well you didn’t do anything; I just want to ask you a question.” So I asked them the question. And there in all of their suntan glory said, “No, we don’t think you ought to do that. It seems like it’s too much money for what it’s worth.” So we asked a few other people around. Most of the local don’t use that. What it was used mostly by were the bus companies on tour from Salt Lake, or wherever they’re coming from, going over to Bear Lake and then on over to Yellowstone. That was just a stop. So we didn’t ask them, but we tore it out anyway and we never heard a word and we never spent $75,000 of the taxpayers’ money putting in a water system that probably wouldn’t work anyway. Anyway, so that’s kind of the way we managed the district. We went out and asked and if somebody had a better idea than we did we would implement the idea. And it really confused people. They didn’t think that a government agency would listen to anybody but we tried really hard to do so. BC: One quick question on the fellows name Wadley? How do you spell that? DB: Harold Wadley was W-A-D-L-E-Y I think was the way they spelled it. Wadley. BC: Okay. That will help when we transcribe it. DB: Yeah. He was an interesting guy. He was a super patriot! Took leaves of absence and fought in Korea and then in Vietnam. And he was wounded badly in Vietnam but it still never slowed him down any. He couldn’t raise his (I don’t remember which arm it was), he loved to hunt, but he couldn’t raise a gun up anymore so he shot it from the hip! [Laughing] BC: And then somebody had mentioned that you were involved in trying to have some of the summer home leases pulled, or? DB: Yeah. When I got here – not generally the whole bunch, but when I arrived in 1984 a cabin at what we call Red Bridge (which is half way between Stokes’ Nature Center and Second Dam, there was a cabin at Red Bridge). Now the kids use it – there’s a big rock behind where the cabin was and they use it to rock climb and practice on it now. But it was owned by a guy by the name of Chase Peterson from Tremonton. And ten years before I got here Chase had signed an agreement that he would give up his rights to the cabin. It was in the wrong place. You know that trail went right through his front door Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  23   �almost, that’s up there now, and the public and he were having a few problems and so forth. He agreed to give it up. So I happen to arrive the spring that the ten years were up. So the decision had already been made to take it out. But Chase didn’t think that the Forest Service would go through with it. I don’t know if I was being unreasonable or not, but I mean he agreed and so we said we were going to take it out and there was no room to renew it. So come June or July that year he was supposed to go, he wouldn’t go. He was supposed to go, he wouldn’t go. He went to the Regional Forestry, went to the Forest Supervisor. Bless the hearts of those two men, they backed up the district’s decision. So Logan City was fussing with their water line at the time and agreed to take a ‘dozer up there and knock it over and put it in a dump truck and take it out to the dump. The day we’d planned to do that Chase shows up and stands in front of the bulldozer. I mean he’s an older guy! BC: Yeah. DB: So we went up there to try and negotiate the situation. Of course he’d called the newspaper and the newspaper was there. I believe they had a picture of me standing on the guard rail with one foot up on the guard rail and my head hung down like this and Chase jabbering in the background. Eventually we tore it down that day and it left and so did he, and that was the end of the controversy. The summer home issue and the Forest Service is interesting in my opinion. Way back in our history there was a fairly political debate as to who should be the recreation supplier in the country: the Park Service or the Forest Service. The Secretary of Interior wanted the National Forest for recreation and of course the Secretary of Agriculture wanted the National Forest for the multiple uses that it was supposed to provide. And so in order to compete with the Park Service, the Forest Service got in the recreation business. We built campgrounds and summer homes were one of the recreational uses that were permitted on the forest at that time. A number of National Forests across the west especially have summer home groups, some have many of them (like we do in Logan Canyon, you know, not top to bottom but there are several summer home groups in there). That’s where they came from. Their fees were very minimal. They were only recreation cabins; they couldn’t establish a residency in them, etc., etc. Although over the years many have tried. But as government has seen in our lifetime experiences, different ways they can make money, they’re looking at summer home groups to say, “Well, their fees are way below market value and so we’re going to raise them up.” And every time that comes it causes a major controversy. They go to the congressman, the congressman come down and beat on the Forest Service, you know, it’s like rabbits. They go through this cycle where there are a lot of them and then it’s quiet for a while and then there’s a lot more of them. That seems to be what’s happening with the summer home group. It gets controversial and then it cools off, then it gets controversial, but it’s almost always over the fee or some of the tendency of the some of the permittees to want to make certain improvements to their properties and make them a little bit more urban than they were designed to be. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  24   �But Chase is the only one that we actually terminated. [Laughing] BC: How do you see the future of the Forest Service? DB: Oh, I wish I didn’t have to answer that question! Again, I grew up at the tail end of its glory, in my opinion. But I’ve seen the policies in the Forest Service become more complex and more of them, more rules, more regulations. Not necessarily coming from congress either. I see people in positions that I don’t think ought to be in the positions they’re in because of egos, because of power, you know. The things that people seek high positions for sometimes. I don’t see us spending as much time on the ground as we ought to be spending. We’re spending way too much time in political issues, at least some of the folks are. And I don’t see a bright future for the Forest Service. I wouldn’t be surprised in five, ten years there isn’t a Forest Service anymore. There will be some kind of gigantic agency that manages all of the, you know the natural resources: parks, wildlife refuges, forests, you know, BLM lands all in the same agency. And I’m going to be one of the firsts that would say it’s not going to work effectively for the good of the American public. I think it will be a very bureaucratic kind of thing, like many government agencies are, and I don’t think it will serve the public like the agencies in the past have. People can accuse me of being an old thinker, I don’t care. I have seen too many evidences where that kind of thinking does not work. I can give you a couple of examples if you want to take the time to listen to them. BC: Sure. DB: The average ranger district, for example, even say 1984, consisted of regular staff but it had what we called a business management assistant. It was a well-trained, usually a lady, that managed the business of the district. She did the hiring, she paid many of the bills, she had access to a fund where we could take and go down to the hardware store and buy a hammer and nails if we needed to do that kind of stuff. It was very efficient; the store owners got paid in a timely way. She completed all the paperwork that needed to be done; some required a forest supervisor’s signature – she’d get it all ready, send it in and manage that process. We hired our own people on the district. We could pick the best workers because we knew who they were. We hired a lot of farm and ranch kids because we knew they knew how to work and they loved outside, you know, the land and so to speak. But gradually over the years all of those responsibilities that that business management person has changed from being able to complete the work, to just being the pusher of the paper. In other words they can fill out the form but somebody somewhere up the line has to approve it. I don’t know how many years ago it was; probably eight, nine, ten years ago, for example, the personnel business that we were all involved in at one time became a central organization. It’s in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Try to hire a person from a person who is doing the approval in Albuquerque, New Mexico – obviously it takes a long time. And it does. We would hire, for example, (I don’t know if this means anything) a GS3 (basic Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  25   �clerical position). That person would blossom in that particular job to where they were worthy of a higher pay. And at one time we could generate a higher pay to pay for their value without any problem at all – well, a little problem – but not a major problem. Now days, if I understand what I hear people talking about around the Forest Service that I keep in contact with, it’s a major operation to get it done IF it comes to pass in the first place. You have people saying, “We didn’t hire them for their brains, we hired them for their hands! All they’re supposed to do is know how to type!” But this lady is calling Yellowstone National Park to find out if a campground is open or if a road is open so they don’t drive 200 miles and find that everything’s closed. She thought about that herself. You know, people walk out of the office with smiles on their faces because they don’t get the buck passed. “That doesn’t matter. We only hired her for her fingers. She’s not supposed to think.” It’s that kind of stuff that drove me nuts, you know. Last example: when I worked in the regional office, I knew I didn’t want to go to the regional office; I really knew I didn’t want to go there. I went there anyway. I went there because my boss wanted to have a forest planner as a district ranger and not a district ranger in the woods. So she arranged a transfer for me to the regional office. I worked in state and private forestry there for a long time and our boss was in Missoula [Montana] (because they combined our two offices) and he wasn’t always in Ogden and so I would go to meetings for him once in a while. I went to a meeting where the regional forester’s staff – and when we called them staff officers that meant something, but when they changed their name to “board of directors” they lost the whole confidence of the Forest Service. But they didn’t see that. Board of Directors; that means you’re elevating yourself above everybody else. They said, “Yeah. We make all the decisions. You don’t do anything unless we make the decision.” I thought weird. Anyway, I struggled with that name. We went to this meeting and they had been talking for months about ten or so issues that were affecting the region. And at this meeting they were going to talk about these. I thought this was interesting. So I went to the meeting and they started to read down this list of all ten items. And, Brad, this was really interesting. They were talking about stuff that we’d talked about 20 years before, honest! I went to meetings as an assistant ranger and as a zone manager – which was the same thing as a ranger on the Sawtooth – where we talked about these same issues in 1981 and 1982. The list, I put them in my drawer. And then sometime in about the [19]‘70s we went through a program called “Choosing by Advantages” and “Management by Objectives” and “Total Quality Management” – we went through all of those kinds of things and developed issues and they’re exactly the same as we did in 1982! And when I saw those listed on the door, I thought, “Those look familiar to me.” And I looked on my list and they were almost word for word to the stuff we developed in 1982 and nothing had been done about them. Nothing! And they were things that the regional forester’s office probably ought to be working on because they had the authority to make these changes, and yet nothing had ever happened. And I thought, “That’s incredible.” Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  26   �And I’m sitting there listening, listening, listening and they got down to the last end and then the guy moderating the meeting said, “Very good! We’ve all done really good work now the meeting is over!” And before they could get up out of their chairs I raised my hand and I said, “Wait a minute.” I said, “All of these issues are really, really cool. And they’re really important, but when are you going to do anything about them?” The room went dead silent. And I knew I’d said the wrong thing because I’m only a GS12 talking to GS13s, 14s, and 15s! And then one of them said, “I don’t think we’re so bad, why we worked really well together on this!” (They had retreats where they went away, you know for themselves, and did all of this.) And that ended the meeting. And I actually went out of that meeting a little sick to my stomach because I couldn’t believe that this level of intelligence would be so naïve to think that was their original thought – it wasn’t! We thought about that in 1981 and ’82 and you know, a few other times during the year. So I stayed on for another couple of years before I retired, so it must’ve been in about 1998. And you know, until that very day that I walked out of the office nothing had been done about those ten issues -- nothing. BC: Hmm. Amazing. DB: So, to answer your question shortly: no, I think the Forest Service has changed. I feel bad that it has. I just don’t think they’re going to be as effective as they had in the past with the policies and the way they manage people now and all those kinds of things – I don’t think they can get back to the way it was. It’s too political in my opinion. We’re too much focused in on environmental documentations and documents which I don’t think the law requires us to be that intense, but we are. I don’t see rangers in the woods a lot. I see them at meetings, but not in the woods. I see their staff in the woods, but then the disconnect is between quality and ideas: this person is doing their own thing, the ranger’s going to meetings all the time. But where is the district going? I have a hard time sometimes seeing where that is going. What we did on the Logan District that made Logan Canyon and everything else work is, like I told you earlier, our campgrounds were in really bad shape. So what are you going to do with a budget that’s static to get from a really bad level of maintenance to a level that you’re proud to invite the public to come out to see? How are you going to do that? Well I told my staff that it wasn’t painting one table at a time in a campground! And then I asked the question, “How are you painting the tables?” “We’re painting them with a four inch paint brush and a gallon can of paint.” Well if you’ve painted a little bit of your house you know that’s slow. There are faster ways to do that. So I just asked a dumb question, “Why don’t you buy a commercial paint sprayer and spray the whole campground at once? You could spray the whole campground in the time it takes you to paint one table and drive 20 miles to paint the second table. In other words you can do a whole campground in a day.” We only have 12 campgrounds. You could get all 12 of them done in 12 days if you had the resources to do it. Well we didn’t have the resources to do all 12 of them, but we had a little bit to do some. So they went out and bought a $300 and some odd paint sprayer and sprayed all the campgrounds lickety split. They started to look pretty well, we didn’t increase our budget any. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  27   �A group of people – the city forester in Salt Lake City – was planting thousands of trees across these parks in Salt Lake City for pennies. How does he do it? He’s hiring the high school football team. He’s paying them $500-$1,000 to plant 10,000 trees (which if you contracted it would be close to $10,000, you know). So for $500-$1,000 he’s getting all of this work done. What’s in it for the football team? Well they need money for pads and for helmets and for special equipment that the school district isn’t funding them for. Loved it! You get these big, husky kids out there digging holes fast – so why don’t we try that? Our campground grates, for example, they were all broken apart. We were replacing them one at a time with metal ring fireplaces, which is a pretty good deal but we weren’t making any progress. So why don’t we hire a football team to come and do it? So we did. We brought Skyview’s High School football team to come in and do it. We paid them $1,000. They replaced almost all of our campground rings in Logan Canyon in a very short period of time. Saved us thousands of dollars and yet got our campgrounds up to one more level for just pennies. BC: Um-hmm. DB: That worked out really well. We did it again and again. And they came with their own supervision; they came with their busses. We didn’t have to pay for anything except for that little fee we agreed to. They bought helmets – it worked out perfectly for them. So how are we going to take care of the litter problem? Because that really bothered me. The crews would go through a campground and they would pick up stuff and within a day it looked like they’d never been there. A really sad thing for Cache Valley because I thought people would be much more sensitive than they were. I was disappointed in that. But how are we going to do it because we’re not going to get any more money to get any more people to pick up garbage? Do you know the name of Don Yonker? BC: I know some Yonkers out in – DB: Gordon. You know Gordon Yonker? BC: Yeah. DB: But Don Yonker is an older man now. He owned a bunch of land up against the mountain in North Logan, but north of Green Canyon. Don was a scouter and he came into the office one day he was concerned a little bit, as I was, that Eagle projects were being refused on the district right and left. And I couldn’t understand why we kept turning away free help. BC: Um-hmm DB: “Well, we don’t have time to go out and set up the project. We don’t have time to do this and that.” In a way that’s a legitimate – but not really – because you know, we could take Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  28   �the time if we wanted to. What were we doing that was more important? Probably nothing. But Don walked in the office one day and he said, “I’ll help you manage that program.” He said, “I’ll help supervise the Boy Scouts.” And so the next Boy Scout that came in wanting an Eagle project, we said, “Yes.” And then we got more, and we got more and we got more and pretty soon Don was managing a whole bunch of Eagle projects. They were out doing a quarter mile of trail here, and you know, a half a mile here; picking up here; doing all kinds of stuff. We got ourselves up one more little notch. Actually we were having a little bit of pressure about using more volunteers on the district, you know, because it was a political thing to do. We got points for doing that. But we didn’t want to do it just because we got points. We needed help. So we instituted – at the time Lady Bird Johnson had the “Take Pride in America” program – and we kind of spun in behind that and we said to the public through different means, “We need some help, folks, picking up in the canyons.” We got so many volunteers that we could have a family go pick up a campground once a week, to be backed up by another family and another family and another family; so we were actually getting things picked up really a lot. Every trail, every road, every campground had numerous families that had signed up to go pick up litter. And we went up another notch. I mean the forest started to look really nice. The problem was still there, but it was getting picked up on a regular basis. The district went back to Washington D.C. four times in a row and they won the top honors for that category in “Take Pride in America” just because of the work of Don and couple of his replacements and some other folks on the district that, you know, dedicated a little time and energy to that program. It was a wonderful program. It did wonders for the district, and here our budget’s not increased one dollar. But you know what happened from all of that is, is that people in the forest supervisor’s office and elsewhere began to see that Logan District knows where to spend money because we did. If we had extra trail money we knew what trail we wanted to put it on. If we got an Eagle project we knew where we wanted to put it, it wasn’t a guess, because we’d done some planning that way. So they would come in, we’d say, “Sure. You’re going to go to that trail and do this much.” And they’d go do it. And we’d just add, add, add, and the trail gets maintained and it was perfect. And so that’s what we did. And yet those folks began to say, “Wait a minute. They’re not just throwing money away.” No we’re not. We know where we’re going with it. So we got grants like $30,000 came in from this fund; and $40,000 from this and $10,000 from this and $5,000 from this because they knew we knew where to spend it. And we did – we spent it where we needed to spend it. And so the district took a way heavy step that way. We figured it would take us 15 years at our existing budget in Logan Canyon and the whole district in general to get all of our campgrounds up to a standard that we thought was acceptable. And we almost got there in eight years because of the extra money. Now why do I think the Forest Service is struggling a little bit? Because that’s all undone. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  29   �BC: Yeah. DB: We’re not there anymore and we’re not making the kind of progress that was made in those years. I’m not claiming credit for it. I got to sit back and put my feet up on the desk and smile. But the staff guys that were doing the work were just doing a marvelous job and it was working really well. When I left (I better be careful how I say this). When I left, I predicted that it would be within, oh at least as short as a year and perhaps two or three years that the district would be almost back in the same condition it was before we started all this stuff, and I’ve pretty well come close to that prediction. And I’m not boasting about that, you know. All I contributed to all of this stuff that went on in the forest was I said that we had to produce the highest money can buy and we’re not going to be functional. The fire crew can’t have their separate vehicles and their separate tools from the range crew, from the trail crew – we’re all part of the same district. It took about four years to get that mindset into people’s heads. And what that did when they got there, when they finally figured out that somebody cared about what they did, they acted together. The trail crew driving down the road would see a crooked sign they would stop and straighten it up instead of just drive past it saying, “That’s not my job, that’s the recreation guy’s job.” The recreation crew, if they saw cows where they weren’t supposed to be they didn’t think, they would tell the range folks that, “There are cows over here.” And the information flowed around the district. If a sign was missing, if they didn’t have it in their pickup truck, they put in there and put it up the next day. It wasn’t their job, but they were going that way. So they started all working together, they started to coordinate together a little bit. They authorized “fire personnel only” signs came down; locks went off the cabinets. We all contributed to the tool supply instead of each one of the groups having to horde their own things. It was really cool; but that all disappeared within two years after. I kept it going; I would admit that I preached like a preacher never preached before on that concept. Like I said, it took four to five years to get everybody agreeing that that’s what we were going to do and working together. But without that preaching it went away in a short period of time. I feel bad about that. I try not to get involved with the Forest Service today because I know, number one I would be disappointed; I would get sort of angry. I feel sorry for where they’re all at, I really, really do. But I don’t know if they’ll ever recover from, you know from the bureaucratic box they seem to have built about themselves. I think we could’ve had diversity; I think we could’ve had – not only in people, but in occupations and skills – if we would have just lead and exercised some leadership in there. I could go forever and ever you know. I have a real passion about this. One of the major mistakes a good company does that causes a failure in a program almost every time, is when you get a leader that stands up there and preaches the greatness of this new thing that you’re going to try and do and then the next day assigns it to a staff group to implement. It will never work, I don’t care how good the idea is, in a hundred Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  30   �years it will never work! For one, the staff guy doesn’t have the authority to do everything that needs to be done; for one it’s not his idea, it was just given to him; for another the boss sometimes won’t give him the autonomy they need to go make it work. And for those reasons it will not work. That’s what the Forest Service has done in many of these things that are good ideas that we’ve tried to implement, but almost every case they delegated it to a staff person to implement. I knew that when I came to the district and I would not do that; I would not delegate the responsibility of creating that management picture. I couldn’t do it because I knew it would fail; and it did when I left. I knew it would because the other rangers – good people as they are (and they’re good people) – had a different way they want to manage. They didn’t want to manage that way. But they’re not making as much progress as we were making either, that’s the only boast I’ll make. BC: Um-hmm. Yeah. DB: There are several writers (and I don’t remember all their names), but their writings are all classically the same: you manage people this way and you do these things a certain way, this is what good companies do and you’ll succeed. And I read their books, over and over and over again. I tried to do that on the district. And I believe they were right. I really do. I believe they were right; because we made progress. BC: I always like to end with the question, if you could go back and change anything about your career and your life, would you? DB: If the conditions of the day I started with the Forest Service were true today I would do it over without hesitation. BC: Um-hmm. DB: I still love being a forester. I still love being called a forester. I still smell pine scent on the breeze when I think about it enough, you know. I love the woods and what it represents. I see the woods being different than what the politicians see it. It’s not just a money making kind of thing, but there’s a whole organism out there that requires – in our day and age – some attention. We call it “management.” In the old days when the Indians set fires to burn holes in timber so they could put their horses in there, or to bring the elk and deer and bighorn sheep and that sort of thing, down into the openings (because they really were attracted to those); the lightening things that burn for months and months in the summertime and all that fire influence, in the West anyway, had a major influence on what the vegetative types, mosaics and all those kinds of things developed around. And each stage in their development benefited something else at that particular point in time. Unlike what the environmentalists wished would happen – that we do nothing to the woods – is not wise because the end result of all this vegetative development on its own, without any influences turning it back one way or the other (you take fire out of the system, if you take the bugs out of the system, and so forth), you end up with a pure stand of some old tree that has litter on the ground this deep with very little ground vegetation Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  31   �and therefore, not much to offer for the other varieties of – the wildlife and birds and so forth that call that home. The biomass itself might be high in vegetative types, but animal wise and the other kinds of critters that you normally think to find there, aren’t there because their habitat is not there. So I don’t know, for whatever wisdom you know, fire kept things in different stages scattered about the countryside and the re-development of the vegetative type’s history back up toward its climax – kept things in variety. Well in 1905 when the Forest Service thought – it was even true when I graduated from college – that fire, insects and disease were the enemy of the woods! And we had to do whatever we could to minimize those things. If you’re talking pure timber, that’s the concern of course, because that’s where the value of whatever your product is. But if you’re talking about ecosystems, that’s not wise because the periodic disruption in the community is what keeps it viable and the variety there. And so I always thought in my scheme, the land needs to be managed and it needs to be wisely managed. People need to use it but they can’t abuse it. You can cut some trees but you can’t cut too many of them; you can graze some cows, but you can’t graze too many of them, and so forth. If you were able to strike that balance in being able to manage a district like that, or even a forest like that, that the benefits to both the landscape and to the user of the landscape would be about as good as you could do it. If we could do that, then this job would be very, very interesting to continue on with it. It really would. But knowing what I know today and knowing what the Forest Service is like today – would I do it again? I would think about that a little bit harder. I don’t know what I would do different but I would would think about it a little bit harder. I think I would be a specialist and get away from the politics. I am really interested in fire and spent a lot of time in that particular box and I would easily want to become as expert as I could ever be in the whole fire management issue. I could find some joy and happiness in doing that, but not leading it. Again because of the politics and policies that seem to be controlling everything in ways I wish it wouldn’t. BC: Um-hmm. Alright, well thank you very much Dave, for – DB: Did I talk too much? BC: No, it was great! And we could probably go on for a long time. DB: Yeah, I can get real passionate about management. I really, really can. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dave Baumgartner     Page  32   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/331">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/331</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dave Baumgartner interview, 5 May 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource The interview contains information on the childhood, education and the career of Dave Baumgartner as a forester, the various positions held within the Forest Service and his views on management. There are many anecdotes from his personal experiences in managing in the Logan Canyon and Logan District of the Forest Service, including his attitudes regarding the road expansion up Logan Canyon and his idea to include land users when making decisions. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baumgartner, Dave, 1942- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Forest Service United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees Foresters--Interviews Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Interviews Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Family Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Career in Forestry Logan Canyon (Utah) Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Public relations Utah. Dept. of Transportation--Public relations Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Management Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Travel Environmental protection--Utah--Logan Canyon Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Officials and employees Volunteer workers in camp sites, facilities, etc.--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Salt Lake City (Utah) Utah Cache County (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Lewiston (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 3 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd3DaveBaumgartner Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 5 May 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-05-05 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/1853497373d1d4843e9aa136dab68917.mp3 27b65a76fabe9258b3dc42c7ce924cb2 https://highway89.org/files/original/618db0fe3620b2b683c89edb9c9d64ff.pdf 4f9cc6b888007ed303d7aee78e8747da PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Ted Kindred Place of Interview: His home in Hyrum, Utah Date of Interview: 13 August 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Darren Edwards Darren Edwards Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Express Scribe Transcription Software Glenda Nesbit Elaine Thatcher, January 2009; Randy Williams (1/13/2011 & 7/13/2011) Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau, his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his local history efforts. Reference: DE: Darren Edwards (Interviewer; USU graduate student) TK: Ted Kindred NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. The interview is broken into five-minute tracks, which are noted in the transcript. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Disk 1, Track 1] DE: This is Darren Edwards. I’m here with Ted Kindred at his home in Hyrum, Utah, for the oral history of Logan Canyon Project. So what’s your full name? TK: What? DE: Your full name. TK: Theodore J. Kindred. DE: And when and where were you born? TK: Kansas City, Missouri, 1918. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  1   �DE: So how did you get from Kansas City to Logan? TK: Oh, I was out here with Thiokol when they first started. I was a management consultant. And, I don’t know. When they first called me to come out here I asked them where it was at and they said Promontory. I said “You’ve got to be kidding.” I said, “There’s nothing out there but sagebrush.” And they said, “No we’re building a big plant out here.” So I came out and I stayed. Been here ever since, this is home. DE: You decided you liked the sagebrush. TK: Oh, I love it here. I didn’t want to stay on the other side of the mountains [Box Elder County]. So I wanted to come over here. And now it’s getting too crowded. DE: So what’s your earliest memory of Logan Canyon? TK: The very earliest is at the mouth of the canyon. It was a two-lane road at that time. And the trees made a tunnel over the canyon there at the mouth. And you drove that way almost to Malibu and Guinavah in that. Of course then when they decided to widen it all the trees came out. No more up there. But, we used to go camping up there and then later up at St. Anne’s. I used to go up there. Monsignor Stock [of the Catholic Church] looked after it [St. Anne’s Retreat when it was] left to them. And he only had a small parish here, and I was one of the few in that. But anyhow he was trying to look after it, and so I sort of took over half of it to look after. And oh, did a lot of repairs and things up there. And then there used to be a tremendous amount of vandalism done up there because, there are all kinds of stories you’ve probably heard and that. But it was basically used as a, we [Catholic Church] called it retreat. But it was a vacation place for the Holy Cross Hospital [in Salt Lake City] and the Benedictine Hospital in Ogden, for them to come up and spend a week or two. But I don’t know. After winter when it was closed up, they [vandals] used to break in and the furniture was getting torn up and burned in the big fireplace and stuff. And I don’t know, maybe you’d like some background of that St. Anne’s. DE: St. Anne’s is the Catholic retreat just up Logan Canyon? Yeah. Background would be great. TK: Well some of the background: That land originally belonged to the Hatch family. And they gave it to the Forest Service for lifetime lease on it. They kept it forever. But Boyd Hatch took over and built, oh, a nice place up there. And I don’t know I don’t believe a whole lot’s known here about him other than the Hatch Room up to the University in the Library. That was donated by them. But he had a partner at the Atlas Corporation: Floyd [Bostwick] Odlum. And he and Floyd, I’ve always said, were the first conglomerate people. They had the RKO Studios and Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  2   �Bell & Howell Camera, United Fruit, Bonwit Teller department stores: a whole group of things. But they would bring people in [to the St. Anne’s Retreat, then called Pine Glenn Cove or Hatch's Camp or Forest Hills. It was placed on the national Register of Historic Places on 28 December 2006]. They had a large closed-in porch, screened in. And they’d fly people in from New York and Los Angeles, friends. They had barbeques down by the river. And then on that porch they’d have big name orchestras out of the, like RKO Studios. Bring them in for dances here and things. But [Track 2] anyhow, Boyd was going to build a Tudor mansion in Providence up on the, up where Edgewood Farms is there. And he had a heart attack and died. So all they ever got done was the foundation. [The furnishings for the library for this mansion were donated to Utah State University and are now housed in the Hatch Room in the Libraries’ Special Collection & Archives.] But then, they Hatch and Odlum were both married to sisters: the McQuarrie sisters. [Speaking of St. Anne’s Retreat]: Boyd died. Mary Anne [his wife] gave the lower Hatch part to Monsignor Stock for the church. And later Hortense [McQuarrie] Odlum she’d be up there by herself. She decided there’s no use her coming up there anymore because Floyd had got a divorce and married Jackie Cochran, a jet flying woman, jet flying ace. And so she called and told him [Monsignor Stock] he could have hers, too. So they had the whole thing. But it was a wonderful place. I used to clean out the pool up there, the swimming pool. DE: What were the names again of the people that donated that land? TK: Boyd Hatch and Floyd Odlum. It was actually their wives, Mary Anne and Hortense. DE: Mary Anne and Hortense. TK: Hortense. Uh huh DE: How do you…Do you know how to spell that? TK: HORTENSE I think it is: Hortense. But there’s an interesting thing about that. They were sisters – McQuarrie sisters. And their father died and Boyd’s [Hatch] mother died—Eastman Hatch’s wife; the older one. And they met each other and they got married. That made Boyd and his wife step-brother, step-sisters. It’s interesting, it’s complicated. But anyhow that covers pretty well what that was [history of St. Anne’s Retreat]. They finally, the nuns wouldn’t go up there anymore because there were too many people trying to get in there. And they just didn’t want to be up there bothered at Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  3   �night especially. So anyhow they had it for oh, the kids, needed places to go you know, on that. And it didn’t last very long and they weren’t taking care of it. So the church sold it; got out of it. But anyhow, aside from that the sisters still wanted a place to go. And I had bought a place at Beirdneau; and I let them use that place. They could come up there, small groups of them. It wasn’t big like St. Anne’s. But they’d come up and I’d take vegetables and things up for them to have while they were there. DE: Where was that again? TK: At Beirdneau. DE: OK; Beirdneau. TK: And I don’t know if you ever knew Tom Lyons? [He] taught English here at the [Utah State] University for years. DE: Must have been before my time. TK: Well. Yeah, it was. He lived next door there [at Beirdneau]. They lived there the year round. I don’t know what all you want me to tell about this. But I’ll tell you an incident that I was involved in. They had three little boys. And we had six children, some of them about the ages of those kids. Of course they were up there by themselves so they would come over as soon as they heard the car come up to our place, to have somebody to play with. Well, one time they came over and they were turning handsprings and things. And they asked me if I could do that. And I said, not any more. I said, “I practice yoga.” And they said, “Oh we’ve got an Indian teaching us yoga comes up to the canyon.” I say, “Well, I tell you what, next time I come up I’ll dress, everything on for that. But you got to be quiet when I go.” Well I had a Chautauqua outfit. Years back those traveling operas and things. It was a brocade and velvet outfit, you know; spangles all over it. I don’t know all kinds of stuff. And I had a fez, and I had a pair of turned up boots, or shoes, like the Turks. I had those on [Track 3] and so the kids caught on what I was doing and they had all kinds of garbs to go with me up there. Well, when they got up there, their lands were gone. I and told them there’s no use wasting that. And in the front of our place there’s a bend going around in front of Malibu and Guinavah, just a slight bend. Well, we . . . out on the end of that and it was open. So the wild phlox was all in bloom. And we had our dog Gabby with us and we picked phlox and put in his collar. And the kids had him, we’d go down to the corner, a car came around we’d give them a peace sign and throw phlox out, you know. [Chuckling] Two weeks later there was a rumor going around town that a hippie family moved up Logan Canyon. But it was fun. DE: And you guys were the hippie family? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  4   �TK: Yeah. But anyhow we used the place we had up there; we’d use it the year round. We had a big fireplace in it and we had a wood/coal stove like that. Go up there in the winter and build a fire in the stove and the fireplace, heat it up. The kids would go snowshoeing or sliding up there. And have hot chocolate and things for them to warm up with. But I don’t know. On up the canyon in the early days, we used to cut Christmas trees up at the Sinks. And I’ll never forget that. Our two oldest ones weren’t too old then, that we had. It was quite a lift, must be a half a mile across the land there to get over to the trees. There was about three feet of snow on the ground. I went over, I cut a tree and took, the two older ones wanted to go with me. Well, by the time they got over there they were tired and they wanted to be carried. And I had that Christmas tree and those two kids to get out of there. Well, a friend at that time, Jim Cannon, worked for the Forestry. And he arrived with a snowcat just as I was getting back off of that. And I said, “Why did you have to wait until now to come up?” [Chuckling] He’d have got me out of here. But that’s the only time I ever cut a tree up there. Never went back to get another one. DE: Where was that again? TK: At the Sinks. DE: Okay. TK: That’s, you turn at Beaver to go up and you get about half way up the slope, it was down in the Sinks. All down there, the low part. DE: So just past Beaver in those sinks there? TK: Yeah, uh hum. But you had to go clear across that to the trees. And that’s where they issued permits to cut them. And we used to like to go up to Sunrise Campground, up there and camp. We’d do that a lot. But it’s hard to get into any of those places anymore. There’s everybody wanting in them. DE: Yeah. Now when you say “we” is that you and your family? TK: Yeah. DE: Your kids and wife? TK: Yeah. We did a lot of camping before, well even after we had our summer place up there. We liked to go up the Wind Rivers. But anyhow back to Logan Canyon. It had the most beautiful view [at Sunrise Campground] coming up, looking down on the blue there at Bear Lake from the outpost there. But also I think a place they forget about--there where they turn off to Temple Forks in Logan Canyon there’s a privately owned place right there that looks like oh, a nice brick ranch house built down there with a boat. There’s four acres or something in there. And there Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  5   �had been a juniper place in there they called it Juniper Inn. You’d go up there and eat and things. And it burned down. And it was a long time ago. Anyhow, I inquired about that land up there because they have water rights, everything for it. And at that time the forester, M.J. Roberts, he was looking for it too. Well, I found the guy he was in the army over in Germany. [Track 4] And I contacted him. He wanted $26,000 for that. I wished I bought it now. DE: So did M.J. buy it? TK: M.J. Roberts. That was the Chief Forester at that time. Everybody knows him, he’s been around … DE: So did he end up buying the land? TK: No. DE: No. TK: I wouldn’t tell him who it was [that owned it]. [Chuckles] No, that’s private— they built that ranch house up there on it. And they have water rights and everything for it, on both sides of the river. DE: That’s a good setup. TK: Yeah. It was a good deal. But I don’t know. There’s been such a change in the canyon itself because everybody’s in a hurry to get up to Beaver or Bear Lake in the summer. And even Bear Lake, I remember that. Gad, when Ideal Beach was the place to go, and we used that a lot too on weekends. But I don’t know if you want to cover anything that was that far up. DE: That’s good; whatever you want to talk about with Bear Lake or Beaver or any of that. TK: Well I can tell you a couple of good stories about it. My son was in the Civil Air Patrol. And often in the summer they would sponsor members coming in from other countries here, spend a week or two. And one year they had boys from France. And we had them up the canyon; they used the cabin up there to stay in. But I wanted to take them up to Paris, Idaho. [Chuckles] And we went up there just to show them the town. As we came back the north beach was crowded, it was on Sunday; people all over the beach. And they saw it. And they wanted to know if we could go in there, turn in there. They wanted to, the minute we turned in there they stripped clothes down, they were going swimming. And in those jockey shorts, it, if they get wet, they may as well have been naked, you know. Well that was long before we ever had them here. But then that’s what they had on. Everybody was staring over at them. But they had a good time up there swimming and all. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  6   �But then another time we had them at our place from Denmark. And everybody said, “Oh we’ve got to have the return missionaries come up so they can,” I said, “We don’t need that they speak English.” I said, “We don’t, but they speak more than one language over there.” So anyhow, I don’t drink, but I thought they do because the water’s bad there you know. And it’s gonna be hot. It was in July. So I had a guy bring up a few cases of beer. And I had a little stream running down by us that come out of the springs and I had them set them in there, cooling. So when we got up there, why, they had, they had the interpreters with them. That is the other people that was with them. And I asked them when they got up there if they were thirsty. Oh yeah, they are. I said, well, over in that stream, I said there’s cold drinks over there. Gad, [laughing] they did away with all of them. They were all gone. But I don’t know this. I made a few notes here… Oh another thing. We had a very dear friend who was James Holy Eagle from Pine Ridge Reservation. DE: Now that was James TK: Holy Eagle DE: Holy Eagle TK: He used to come and spend summers here. And, oh, the kids they just worshiped him. He was their grandfather as far as they were concerned. But he liked to spend all the time he could up at our place there in the canyon. And he, what we call dogwood, they call that red willow. And he’d cut off pieces of that and let it kind of dry. Then he’d scrape the outer bark off and then the inner bark he’d scrape and save. And when it dried he’d grind it all up and that’s what they call kinnikinnick or tobacco. He’d mix a few little, real tobacco in with it. He had one cigarette every night for visions up there out of that. But I thought that was interesting to find out what we call dogwood they call red willow and made their tobacco out of it. But [Track 5] he’d wander around up there. He loved being up there and that. And the kids loved having him up there, too. I was a special guest for the first Sun Dance they had that was legal back in ’72. And I was able to take pictures of all that. There was a porcupine up there. DE: Now when you say the first Sun Dance what was that? TK: That’s a very holy dance for them. They put a pole or a tree in a circle and then their, whoever they’re going to dance for, they make kind of a rope that they weave that’s tied up to that. And then they’d pierce themselves here and put that rope in it. And they’d dance and that until, four days, until they’d pull that out finally. And for the, in order to have the whatever they’re dancing for was done. But I don’t know so many things. There’s something. I’m getting off of… Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  7   �DE: You’re okay. You’ve mentioned your family a couple of times. What were their names? TK: My family? [Wife was Patricia Kindred.] I had six children. I just lost my daughter [Jennifer Treibe died 22 July 2008]. She lived right across the street; the only one that still lives here. [She] had liver cancer. But anyhow, my oldest was Timothy Kindred; then Rebecca Kindred and Kathleen Kindred and Patricia Kindred, Jennifer Kindred and Lindy Kindred. Most of them had a, only one graduated from over here at USU. But they all had an introduction over there. Some stayed and some didn’t. My youngest one she’s, teaches graduate students in Bloomington, Indiana, in theatre. In fact she was a designer for Shakespeare Festival, not this year, but the two years before. DE: Just here in town? TK: Salt Lake. But anyhow, I was trying to think what else I could tell you about… DE: Well, really to get just a little more on you. During all this time what was your profession, what did you do? TK: Well, I was a jack of all trades, I guess. Out here, for instance, I was hired as consulting, management consulting person. And I traveled quite a lot. More for corporate than I did from the Wasatch Division, because they had other interests that they’d call me for. We had, oh; we had a place, for instance, in Georgia, St. Mary’s, Georgia. And they were going to build a big booster down there. But it didn’t work out. So they started building ammunition down there and there was an explosion. So it killed several people. So they sent me down there to get it started again. And then they were in the rug-backing business. And that wasn’t working. So they sent me here, there and yonder. They had, oh they must have had 25 places that made ‘em. But it didn’t take long to find out what was the matter. They weren’t organized. But I spent time down at Virginia – at Waynesboro. That was for the one that I, the main one was on it. And I don’t know. Then I spent a year in Chicago when the wind tunnel at Calahoma [?], the Air Force. Somebody left a ladder in there and they turned it on and destroyed it. They had to rebuild it. And part of it was in Chicago. They weren’t building it very fast so I spent a year commuting in there. But that was mainly what I was sent. But since I’ve retired it’s been oh, history, local. [Track 6] In fact here I think it was I don’t know [19]’96 -’97, I belonged to the Mormon History Association. And they established the Thomas Caine Award and I got that the first year they issued it. That’s for a non-Mormon doing Mormon history. DE: Now what is the Thomas Caine Award for? TK: The Thomas Caine? I collected all this data, local data and maintained it. I don’t know they’d send people from everywhere here for information; anywhere in the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  8   �Valley here practically. Elaine Thatcher, her father was a really good friend of mine – Ted Thatcher. And his mother was a very dear friend of mine: Hannah Thatcher; Frank Thatcher’s wife. But she was a 106 years old when she died. She lived a good long life. DE: And Elaine told me (Elaine Thatcher is one of the people who is over the project) she said that you were quite a historian; that you had done a good deal of local history work. TK: Well, her grandmother was not Mormon, and her grandmother’s father John oh… I’m pushing 90 and I have, I don’t get instant recall of names. What was his last name? Anyhow he was director of music. He came from Wales. He was director of music out here in Benson Ward for different wards out there. Went to church there all the time; but never joined the church.1 And he was the first Postmaster out there. And his, he had to make a name for it. Wasn’t Benson then; he called it King. And I have postcards from there that were never used. King, Utah. DE: Before it was called Benson it was called King? TK: King. Uh hum. Yeah. But I don’t know. I was trying to just think of other things that maybe… DE: Some of the things that we’re looking into are the land use policies. The way the canyon has been used. What are some of your views on land use policies? TK: Well, they put a stop on issuing any permits for homes up there. And they would like to get rid of all of them. But that’s going to be a hard thing to do. I know they had a committee a number of years ago do a massive study on that. And there were some 98,000 summer homes on government land [all over the country]. And they recommended that Forestry sell that land to the people that owned the places and get out of the business. Don’t do it anymore. Well, poor old M.J. Roberts, he had to call a meeting on that, you know. And I kept asking when he was going to get to that part. And finally he was getting angry about me asking him. He didn’t want to get it. He said, “You couldn’t afford to buy it.” He said, “We want $3,000 an acre.” I said, “I’ll give you a check right now for it.” [Laughing] But they never did do it. They never sold them. They still lease the land. And it’s high now, but the lease is not as high as the areas put on taxes, things like that, you know, and insurance for up there. And I don’t know the taxes have gone skyhigh. There was hardly any taxes on those places [in earlier times]. They never 1 Note from Elaine Thatcher: Hannah Mathews Thatcher was 105 when she died in 1990. Her father, John Mathews, was choirmaster for St. Johns Episcopal Church in Logan. He would walk to Logan from Benson to serve in this capacity. I don’t think he ever attended the LDS Church unless it was for a wedding or funeral. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  9   �did anything for them. But now the county, I think, on just a little place up there, be $600-$700 a year on it. And they used to let students live there the year-round. But not anymore; they got to be out of there, they close it. DE: You mentioned earlier some of the ways that you’ve noticed the way people use the canyon has changed. [Track 7] You said it used to be a lot slower, and now everybody’s in a rush to get to Beaver or to Bear Lake. Can you talk a little bit more about that? How the way people use the canyon has changed in your life. TK: Well, yes. It used to, you know, you drove slowly up there because it was a narrow road. And you could enjoy a trip up there. You weren’t hanging on to the steering wheel wondering who’s gonna hit you next, you know, or something. But now it’s a speedway going up there. Well, it’s getting to be the same way going from Logan to Preston since they widened that. That’s 60 miles an hour now and they go 70-75-80 on it. But it used to be an enjoyable trip to go up there. But I don’t know; I don’t like it now. I go up to the Emigration Canyon going from Preston over. Because it’s a bad road there, it’s narrow yet. You can go through there and really enjoy it, going through, enjoy the whole place. And then there’s Ricks Springs up there. I don’t think it’s even open anymore.2 DE: Ricks Springs? TK: Uh hum. Everybody’d always stop there and get a drink. But I guess it was dangerous to pull off there now. Or maybe it didn’t have no parking there after widening it. I don’t know. DE: So it seems like widening, the widening of the roads and the making of the speed limits faster has changed things a lot. TK: Yeah. The whole bit. And they had to widen the bridges. Then there’s that one bridge up used, you kind of worried about even crossing it when somebody’s coming the other way, ‘cause it was just real narrow. DE: And where was this bridge at? TK: Oh it’s after you . . . it’s quite a ways up there. I’m trying to think what the, it’s when you’re going up high and there’s a deep canyon all around there. In fact a fellow pushed a car off with his wife in it up there. DE: When was this? TK: Oh, a long time ago. Yeah. I think he went to prison for it. Because that must be a 150 feet down. 2 Note from Elaine Thatcher: As of this writing (Dec. 18, 2008), Ricks Spring in Logan Canyon is still open and has pull-out areas for cars, interpretive signage, and a boardwalk for people to walk on going up to the pool. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  10   �DE: Now was this back when the bridge was narrow? TK: Uh hum. Yep. DE: So in dealing with the land use and the policies governing land use, have you, did you personally have any hand it those? In creating policies? Or was there ever something that you lobbied for? TK: No. The things that you used to argue about. They came up one time, for instance, at me. I kept the lawn nice, because we had small children. And you have snakes up there, you know. We’d have a rattler every once in awhile out there go across. But I kept in down and one of the rangers told me I shouldn’t do that I ought to let the grass grow. And I said well I’m not going to do it. I didn’t, either, because I didn’t want my kids running out there to play you know, and stepping on a rattler and get bit; because you never knew for sure. But that brings up something else, you know, that… The students used that the year round. They’d stay there the year round. And there was a couple of them. One of them still lives over here in Logan. But he was kind of a real environmentalist. And in fact he was against the North Slope pipeline in Alaska coming down. But after we had the shutdown on oil coming in here for a short period a long time ago. Well, he went to Alaska and he did write ups on the pipeline. And he made quite a lot of money doing them. And he came back here and he opened his own business here. I often have thought of him. He made all the money writing all these things, you know. But I think he was hurrying them up to get oil in, too. But they’d [Track 8] park in my lower parking and it’d be muddy and they’d made ruts in there. So I called them one day, the three of them up there and I said, you guys bring your rakes over here and clean up the mess you left on my parking. They says, like what? And I said, “You’re all environmentalists,” and I said “Look what you did down here.” I said, “You made these deep ruts.” [Chuckles] But those same guys, I get, they used to come up and we’d have, I had a fire pit and we’d do pit barbeques up there. That’s something else I did too. When they used to have the Western Writers Conferences here, I always knew who was coming and I’d do a pit barbeque up at our place for the ones who were going to take part in it. Not the audience, but the ones that were, and I met all these people, and I’d always have their book so they could sign them. But I don’t know. They’re wonderful people, you know. The only one I didn’t like, well, I guess he was alright. But he was different, was Edward Abby. DE: Edward Abby? TK: Yeah. He was kind of foul-mouthed. But he’d have a couple of drinks, and start in. But I don’t know. Wallace Stegner, he was a wonderful person. He just, they were over to the house here, he and his wife two different times to visit. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  11   �But also this, the same ones, the environmentalists that I was telling you about, one winter we went up to Mammoth Springs in Yellowstone and stayed up there with a project officer and then the next day went over to, oh, what’s the, oh, that’s awful when you can’t recall right quick. Anyhow it’s Windows Flat in the valley. And we went over there and snowshoed in to get pictures of wildlife in there. Oh, it was a beautiful thing. But they were worried about me. I was the oldest one of them and they were afraid I was going to fall. But I made it. And oh, shoot. But anyhow, we had lots of experiences like that. I feel I’ve had a good life. You know, getting involved in all these things. DE: Had a lot of activities and things go on. TK: Well, in the early days. Now this is something else I guess I could tell you about. We were very active with the foreign students. And back in the early 60s up ‘til early 70s they had several thousand here. DE: The foreign students? TK: Uh hum. And a lot of them were from Iran, Iraq, and places like that. Arabia, Egypt. But the main ones that came was from South America. And places that don’t like us like Venezuela. The ones that turned on us, you know. But we had lots of students. They used to call this house the Latin American Embassy. But anyway some students were leaving to go home then they would bring students coming in over and introduce them. So it was constant turnover coming in. But we’d take them up the canyon. I don’t know, have barbeque and stuff up there. And entertain them. But I don’t know. Do you have more things there that you could . . .? DE: A couple of things that I would like a little, if you can elaborate a little bit more on, with the writers project; when the writers came in. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? TK: Well, yes, it was a fabulous thing to me. They had quite a large attendance for that. And, of course, the big names of all of them that came in. I know our son’s name was Timothy Shane. And Frank, [Track 9] I’m trying to think of his last name just off hand. That wrote the movie, the story Shane. [A.B. Guthrie wrote the screenplay for Shane.] He was here. And when he found out our son’s name was Shane he wrote a whole page in the book and gave to him. About Shane and all. But oh, Guthrie, and here a while back, I can’t get the names, I can’t recall them real quick for you. But those, some of those people still come for other occasions here. Like when they have the Leonard Arrington lectures. Every once in awhile I’d go and here’s an old face comes in. And there’s one from Yale, he was here a while back and I went down to talk to him. We had a nice visit there for a while. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  12   �Because he had the old memories of having a pit barbeque. He’d never seen one before. But it’s been a wonderful life here you know, and stuff. DE: Are there any ways you can think of that the writers project, and having those writers come in and share that Logan Canyon, and experience Logan Canyon, that affected the development of Logan Canyon? Or the land use of Logan Canyon? TK: Well, we used to use up all the parking spaces up there at Beirdneau when we had these. But I think the people enjoyed them. Like Tom Lyons lived right there, he was from the University. And I don’t know but Ken Brewer. Ken was a participant in that. And then there was another one that died not long ago – Mark Sorensen. [Omitted part of interview at this point.] In fact there were other things they had, too. They used to have the Lawman/Outlaw Group. And they had all the western stuff. It used to all be published here. But they’d just last so long; it was almost like the Heritage Farm out here. Most of that was up on the campus and they moved it all out there now. But I was involved in that when they first started out there. The first manager was from here, Sven Johnson [Johansen?]. But I think they’re doing a better thing out of it now, over there. DE: That’s the Heritage … Was it the heritage ranch you’re talking about? TK: Farm DE: The Heritage Farm. TK: Yeah. Out there by Wellsville. Yeah. [Ronald V. Jensen Historical Farm] DE: What can you tell me about Austin Fife? TK: Austin Fife. He was a real good friend. He and his wife used to come over every once in awhile. And they always had these wonderful stories. There’s something that I never did see documented that over here in Wellsville they had, one of the families that came in from the east brought slaves with them. And when the slaves were released they took their name of Brad what, it will come to me in a minute. Anyhow one of them was Pokey. And over here in Mt. Sterling he squatted on a piece of land. And they had a quarry in there. And a lot of the rock that went into these Wellsville homes [Track 10] came out of that quarry. And they have the cemetery over there. For the centennial I got people out of range science to come and clean that up, because there’s still a lot of people buried there. And when I, they put something in the paper about it. And I said that I was worried about two places there. Said I was wondering if there had been slaves that were buried there. Because they had sunk in; and Wilma Hall over in Wellsville, she’s the historian for there. She called me up and she says, “What do Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  13   �you know that I don’t know?” [Chuckles] That was under their control then. I said, “I don’t.” I said, “But they didn’t make tombstones for them when they died.” I knew that. And I said, “I’m trying to also get more information on it.” But I said, “Most of them migrated to Salt Lake.” And I said “I have the phone numbers of them.” But how do you call and ask “Are you black or are you white?” To talk to them. So I said I haven’t done it. But I don’t know. There’s so many things that they have up there. Now Malibu, right across from where Malibu is the area called Malibu. There used to be a large, oh, dance hall built in there. And later became a scout place. And then finally they just tore it down, got it out of there. Then down where the Stokes Center is. That was originally a scout place. And then the Legions had it for a long time. DE: The who? TK: The American Legion. DE: American Legion. TK: Uh hum. And now, of course, it was kind of abandoned because the Legion was, well, ‘cause they were dying off from World War I and II. That was the day. Not going to be around too long. DE: Is there anything that you could tell me about Hardware Ranch? TK: Yeah. I love the Hardware Ranch up there. In fact, there’s a book on it called Twenty Eight Years on the Anderson Ranch by Leon Anderson. And a number of years ago when they had a young ranger up there, and they wanted to start having an elk festival. So I called all over to find out who could give me authorization to republish that book. And I found Leon’s son in Hawaii and he gave me permission to publish a thousand of them. And we printed them for $3.00 apiece; we were selling them for $10 using the money for that up there to help with that. And when I first came here the Legion in the wintertime had a trailer that they’d park at the entrance up there and they sold hot chocolate and coffee and hot dogs and hamburgers and stuff to people. Used to be a lot of people went up there in the winter. And I don’t know that’s the way they raised funds for it. But then the first year that they had this elk festival. DE: What festival was that? TK: Elk Festival DE: The Elk Festival Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  14   �TK: Yeah. Dan Christensen is the Superintendent up there. And he’s doing a lot of new things. What’s his . . . Thad Box. DE: Thad Box TK: Yeah. He was the first speaker up there. I like him. He’s really a neat fellow. Even at his house, the house he lives in there on Center Street. I had a call from Barbara Howell one time, wanted to know if I’d come over and tell her about some light fixtures that she had. And I went over and they were art deco style. And she was showing them to me and wanted to know what they were worth. And I told her. Well, then I was on the committee for places that we give awards to for maintaining. [Track 11] And Thad’s house came up and we went down to take a look at the house, and I looked at it and I said, “Oh, those fixtures, you got those from Barbara Howell.” And Thad says, “You’re the culprit that told her what they were worth.” [Laughing] But I get involved in a lot of stuff like that. I don’t know. But anyhow, I was afraid they were going to try to do away with Hardware Ranch, maybe sell it or something. And so I’ve encouraged Dan to do everything he can, you know. He’s doing a lot of new things up there now. And I know this one time, the first year they had the festival later. They had an all day, oh, kits that they got from Lowe’s and the Home Depot to make bird houses and things. And I stacked up a whole bunch of bird seed. And the kids would put those together up there for something to do, you know. And they began to draw a pretty good crowd up there to that. And I loved driving up. But that’s another canyon where it’s all privately owned up there now. Yeah, when I came here you could walk anywhere you wanted to you know. It was privately owned then, but people didn’t, there was just one place up there, the Adams Homestead. DE: The Adams Homestead? TK: Uh huh. It’s still there too. In fact, it’s still in the Adams family. He was the principal here at the high school. And they homesteaded up there, and I think this is the third generation now, has it up there. The house is still there and all. But it’s a, I don’t know, it’s a—when I used to come over the summit up here and look down I could tell every little town because there was just a block or two of lights. Now the whole valley’s lit up. Everything, you know, just… You know I gave, this is off the subject, but, I gave . . . after my wife passed away I was going through things she had. And I had two years of newspapers bound like they used in the newspaper office. And I thought they ought to be over where somebody could use them, because the age of them and all. And I took them over to Ann Butters and gave them to her. DE: Who’s Ann Butters? [USU Special Collections’ Western and Mormon Americana Curator] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  15   �TK: She was over Special Collections. DE: Okay. TK: At that time. Anyhow, she was amazed because they were from, there was a Boston Record it was 1818 and 1819. And it was still very legible. No deterioration on them. But they had all the stuff in there about slave ships coming in, and missionaries going off from a hundred different churches. Everybody was sparked with religion then. But then I don’t know, just other things I gave them. I had, let’s see, Campbell. Yeah, Thomas Campbell and his wife they were the first Presbyterian ministers up at Mendon. And it’s their wedding pictures, oh, that high and that wide, you know. It was left here when they left. I don’t know if they left in a hurry or what. And this house next door to me, it used to be the Methodist Church here. DE: And now it’s a home. TK: Yep. I’m getting off the canyon for you. DE: I noticed when I was walking up to your house. You have a lovely house here. You’ve got this great old wood burning stove behind you that we talked about earlier. TK: Yeah. That came out of Park Valley [Utah, in Box Elder County]. DE: Oh did it? Out of Park Valley? TK: Uh hum. DE: It’s a beautiful old wood burning stove. TK: It’s usable. I keep that wood out there. When I’m sitting here in the evenings, I put a stick or two of wood in there and light it. And then it’s a [Track 12] different warmth and that. And then the kids, I have two grandchildren who live across the street. They’re 19 and 22. They like to go camping, so they come over and swipe a few to take with them for fires when they’re up camping. DE: Well, I guess probably one of my last questions for you with talking about, you know, you have this very strong connection with Logan Canyon, with the outdoors and in working with the writer’s project, and, you know, you had some great experiences with that. Was there any piece of literature, any piece of writing that really affected your connection to the land? TK: A writing of it? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  16   �DE: TK: Uh hum. Well… Well, like Old Ephraim. That story lives on and on. I can tell you a story about that too. Scott Bushman, one of the Rangers… DE: Uh hum, Forest Rangers TK: Forest Rangers. He wanted to fix up for the centennial an exhibit there in the rangers shop. And he wanted to get use of the Old Ephraim’s skull that they had at the University [in Special Collections, on permanent loan from the Smithsonian]. DE: Uh huh. TK: This is bad. I told, I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what,” I said. “That really belongs to the Smithsonian. But, I said, they let the University use it here. And I said you call, I had the Director of Government Affairs for the Smithsonian, she’s a friend of mine.” I told him, call her. And I said, “She’d give you permission.” He called her and she said, “Old Ephraim’s skull. We’ve been trying to find out where it’s at.” [Laughing] Anyhow, he told her who told her to call. And so she gave him permission to use it. But that was funny you know that they were upset that they didn’t know where it was. But that’s records I guess. DE: Now what’s the story behind the Old Ephraim. [For information on Old Ephraim go to USU Special Collections digital collection at http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/Ephraim] TK: Well, supposedly, this fellow was almost attacked, and he’d been watching for him because he knew he was big. And he came in as a sheep herder type. And I don’t know they give that lecture here all the time. They love to give that to scout troops and all, you know, the ones that read it. But he was buried and was over nine feet tall, on it. But, I don’t know, it gets overused maybe. But I think of Yellowstone. I don’t like Yellowstone anymore, because, when I used to go up there, you could stop, the bears never bothered you. They’d come right up and you’d give them something, you know. I was more concerned about moose those days than I was the bears; because the bears were smart. They could get a handout. But now there’s more foreign people up there than there are United States citizens. And, besides its speed [limits] changed, widened the highways. And now around Old Faithful, you used to set up fairly close and now it’s all gravel; a great big area that’s graveled. DE: Well, are there any last stories that come to mind that you’d like to share? TK: Well, I got lots of stories, but they’re not all about the canyon. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  17   �DE: [Laughing] Well, we’ll narrow it down to any last stories about the canyon. TK: Yep. I don’t know. When they, when this American Heritage group were meeting out at the farm out here for a long time. And I was involved in that. But then they got to the point where, well, in four months I’ll be 90 years old. That’s getting pretty awkward you know, to try to keep up with the younger people in this stuff. And I drive, but I don’t like to drive at night. I’m just apprehensive. I don’t want to cause an accident. But I was involved out there and I loved it. In fact I was [Track 13] involved with the whole thing out there when it first started. I helped to get it going. I used to furnish stuff for the June wedding; things that you never see around there anymore. You know what bone dishes are? DE: Bone dishes? Uh uh. TK: Well there like a, they’re shaped, there’s some over there in that thing. But, they sit beside your plate. And when you ate chicken you put the bones over there. DE: So it’s kind of like almost banana shaped dish that you would put the bones in. TK: Yeah. Well those and butter pads and knife rests. Two knobs with a thing. They had a plate so the knife wouldn’t get on the tablecloth. Stuff like salt cellars with little dips, for salt shakers and things like that. I’d take them out there and special types of linens and things clear back then. But it’s getting to where it’s just too much effort to do it anymore. I have Indian things though. I was telling you Holy Eagle used to come here. DE: And what was Holy Eagle again? TK: James Holy Eagle. He’d spend a full summer and he’d have his mail sent here. And he’d go up to the post office every afternoon to get the mail. The kids would go with him. Everybody in town knew him, him being here all summer. But they’d stop at the, had a drug store up there then, on the way back and get a candy bar or ice cream or something for each one of them. Well this one day it was raining, the kids said it’s time to go get the mail. And he said, No we’ll wait till 2:00 and it will quit raining. Well, 2:00 came and it quit raining. So he went and got the mail and came back and it started raining again. Well, they figured Holy Eagle could do anything, anything at all. [Laughing] But I don’t know, he went to school here one fall to the high school. And, well, it was up at Sky View, before Mountain Crest was here. And they had him on the stage for all the whole school and audience there in the auditorium. And he kept going on and on and we had Indian kids in front of him and his big arms stretch out and emphasizing everything. And it was so quiet in there and finally he was going way past time. And I asked the principal, I said, you want me to stop him? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  18   �And he said, No, not on your life. He said, they’ve never been a piece where it’s been this quiet. Let him keep right on. DE: Now do you remember was he Shoshone? TK: No, he was Sioux. DE: Sioux. TK: Hunkpapa-Minneconjou, a mixture. But he was a grandson of Sitting Bull. DE: Of Sitting Bull? TK: Yeah, very interesting. But I don’t know my daughter that passed away [Jennifer Treibe]. She has an oil painting of him upstairs that she did. But I got lots of pictures of him. He was mistaken a lot of times for the fellows in the movies. Has long hair, white hair, chief. I had him down to the airport one time and this fellow facing the other side from us. I told Jim, I said, you better smile a little bit that fellow’s going to take your picture. He was getting the camera way down there. He was just gonna see it. After he took it I asked him, I said, “You wanna know who he is?” He said, “Well, is he the one that’s in the movies?” And I said, “Nope. It looks like him, but it’s not him.” But he was, he was in World War I and he went to Parallel school in Pennsylvania when they sent the Indians out for, but he was a wonderful person. [Disk 2, Track 1] DE: Well, thank you very much. TK: Say what? DE: I said thank you very much. You’ve done a great job as a historian. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of great work and lived a very wonderful, interesting life. TK: Well, I love this stuff. You know doing this. And, I don’t know, there’s times they talk about maybe I ought to be in assisted living. And I said, No, I’m going to die here, because everything that I love is right here. DE: You’ve got it all set up in the kitchen here. TK: Yep. And I’ve, I was in the throes of passing this stuff on to my daughter; because she was my sidekick for this history and stuff. And we discovered she had liver cancer. And so some of it’s over at her place and I’ve got boxes of stuff that I was giving her. And I’m not sure what I’m going to do now with it. There was a fellow here a while ago, Ray Anderson. He lives down at, just out of Cedar City. And he grew up here in town. And typical, there was a big family. There were 13 Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  19   �children and they were poor. And they were kind of pushed around. But now he’s writing stories about the town. And he comes to me for information. But there are things, I don’t know if you want, if you’re interested in things that you won’t find in a history book. DE: Oh sure. TK: Well, Hyrum had a dairy up at Hardware Ranch, in that area. In the early days it was called United Order dairy: For butter, cheese and stuff. Well, I often challenge people when they tell me Peter Maughan was the first settler here. DE: Peter Maughan? TK: Yeah. I say that’s not true. The first one here was Thomas Garr, when he drove cattle up from Antelope Island: [LDS] Church cattle and their cattle into the valley. And over in Millville they built the, there were three different ones. Each one built a cabin over there. The other two left and went back, but he didn’t. He stayed. And he never married, but he had an affair with a Shoshone. They call her Susie. Now whether that’s the right one or not, nobody knows. Anyhow she had a baby. And she left it with him. And he was known as Jack Garr: Indian Garr. And he found out the church hadn’t filed on the land that the dairy was on. So he went over and filed on it and made them move it. And that’s not in the history books. They had to move it. And that became what is Anderson Ranch today, was established by him. That’s where the church… DE: So Anderson Ranch was established by Garr. TK: Yeah. By Jack Garr DE: Jack Garr TK: And Jack would come in to Hyrum, he’d drive his wagon and horses in, you know. And he’d proceed to get kind of drunk. And on the way back one time he went to sleep and the horses got off to the side of the road and it turned over and it killed him. And so there was a big lawsuit. There’s a schism in the Garr family over this, that don’t believe that really Garr, you know Indian Garr. And the ones that are. But Jack Garr’s grandson lives over in Millville and he’s an old fellow. He’s well educated. His name is Jensen. Monroe Jensen. Nice old fellow. I go over and visit with him every once in a while. But I’ve got the whole history of the Garrs and the lawsuit and everything on it. But to me it’s interesting that its history but they don’t want to document it: unwritten history. So, and there’s a lot of that. There’s another one here, the reason I got interested when I retired was [Track 2] I found photographs done by Hugo Peterson. And he was born with one arm off at the elbow. But he was an artist and a, well, did everything. Photographer. And anyhow, I was looking for pictures that he had Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  20   �done: photos. And I got quite a few of them I found. I knew where he was born over here, where he grew up. I called a fellow that lives in his house. And it was a log house but it’s had additions to it and covered with sheeting now. Anyhow, I asked who he bought the house from and he told me. He said, this fellow. And I said, “Do you know how to get a hold of him? Oh, he’s an old man and he’s dead. Well, I didn’t take that. Went to the Salt Lake phone book and I found this Frank Boyd down there and I called him. And that was him. And he was a grandson of Hugo Peterson. And he came up here. And I had a lot of information. In fact I had their grandparents’ photos: big ones. And I just recently gave them to his sister so they’d be in the family. But I don’t know; we became very good friends over this. And I get a lot of data from them on it. But it’s just things I’ve done. In fact I can tell you the story of how I got the data on them. I had a fellow, there was a Grover Christensen here in town. And I knew he had died and he had no children. He had adopted a boy, the boy died before he did. And his wife had died. And he married a May Nielson. And when May died, I wanted to find out what she did with his documents and things. And they told me she gave them to a woman across the street, a Mrs. Huron. So I went over to Mrs. Huron and asked her if she had them and she said, “I have.” And she gave them to me. But she said, “I wasn’t a relative. So I gave them to Mrs. Croshaw over in Brigham, a cousin.” So I knew Mrs. Croshaw; So I went over to see her. And I said, “Do you have those?” “Oh yes,” she says, “I’ve got all that stuff.” I said “Could I borrow some to reproduce some of it.” And she goes and gets two great big cardboard boxes and these two big pictures. And I said, “How much of that can I borrow?” She said, “You can have the whole damn thing.” She said, “I didn’t like him.” [Laughing] I waited for her to say something else. She said, “He’d come over here and we had fruit farms.” Said, “He’d get cherries, he’d get apricots, he’d get peaches.” And she said, “He’d never pay for them.” She said, he’d look me in the eye and he’d say, “If you think you’re getting any of my money when I die, you better think again.” And they were cousins. But anyhow, here I have all that data, you know. And there’s a lot of stuff I’ve never published, you know, on it. Because I’m telling things that maybe… DE: Is there any of the kind of unwritten history stuff about Logan Canyon that you feel comfortable talking about? TK: Well, I don’t know whether there is or not. This fellow that just wrote the recent book from National… well, teacher [referring to Michael Sweeney and his book on Logan Canyon that was published by National Geographic: Last Unspoiled Place: Exploring Utah's Logan Canyon.] DE: The journalism professor. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  21   �TK: Yep. He was going to come over and talk to me about St. Anne’s. But then I think he decided there was too much controversy over it. And he didn’t want to get that in his book. But I have his book here. But I don’t know. I don’t know. Are you LDS? DE: Uh, yeah. TK: Well, I’m Catholic. But I have to tell you. I told you I got the Caine Award for that. But also they’re going to tear down the old stake house; it’s on the corner here. It’s abandoned now. And a lot of people came to me about what could I do about that. I said, “Nothing.” But I did do something. They were gonna tear it down, [Track 3] but I took the initiative to call the Director of Temporal Affairs in Salt Lake and asked if they would consider donating land to Hyrum for a little children’s amusement park. And I think they’re going to do it. So it’s a two level park. And it would just be ideal to get trees in there and have it; it’s not big enough for too many things. But we don’t have any parks on the west side of town. And so I called the Stake President and the Bishop and told them. They were amazed that I talked to that level. I think they were afraid to. But I figure if you talk to the head honcho. Just say, when we had foreign students, Dr. Chase was president of the University then. I called him one day and I said, “Dr. Chase, Eduardo Zapata, they’re not going to let him register for next year.” And I said, “I don’t know why. I think you ought to know that his family in Venezuela are the head of the Christian Democratic Party. And that could get serious, not letting a son register here.” Oh, he said, “I can overrule the board on that.” So anyway I called him back later. And he says, “Well, I found out, he flunked everything except one, you see, and he’s got an A in that.” And then I says, “Well what was that?” And he said, “Soccer.” And I said, “Let him go home then. Tell him to reregister as a tourist to come in and get things started again.” And Eduardo went home and he called me from there. He was upset, he couldn’t get back in. [Chuckling] But there’s so many. We had some high ranking people here for things. I don’t know if you want to know. Maybe I shouldn’t tell those things. The University and Venezuela were going to establish an irrigation college in Caracas. And we were so heavily involved with foreign students from all over there that they asked if we would work with Dr. Grant Reese and his wife for a reception for the ones coming in. And I said, “yeah, that would be great,” you know, so we were making all the arrangements and some of them arrived on Sunday and they called up here about how did they get to Logan. And I said, “Just cool your heels. You’re not supposed to be here until Monday.” Terrible, you know. They were Ambassadors from the OAS. Well, they get here and they put them up in the Metro Motel, it’s just the motel, the old one there on, up by Frederico’s is it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  22   �DE: Okay. So kind of right as you’re heading out towards the canyon. TK: Yeah. DE: The hotel there. TK: Well, anyhow. They put them up there and they’re calling for room service. They said, “We don’t have room service.” They wanted drinks, you know. And the next thing, they go to the meeting and it’s in, we call it United Nations Room. It’s got a horseshoe shaped table they all sat around. One of them was smoking a cigar, and so he had to put it out. Another one wanted to know if they had coffee. I said, “We don’t have coffee here.” Finally one of them gets up he says, “I thought this was a joint venture thing.” He said, “I’m not staying here, if it’s one sided I’m going home.” And oh, he broke the meeting up. Well they told, called Grant in and told him, they said, “Don’t get involved in that reception, leave it alone.” So I said “Well, we’ll have it anyhow.” And I called these Latin students and I said, “We’re gonna have two bowls of punch.” I said, “Bring whatever you’ve got.” Because they’d have rum and everything you know. And I said “We’ll have sin and some: some with and some without it.” And then Sunday, what do you get them? Pizza. No place open. So I order a whole bunch of pizzas there. We had tables set up nice. But they had interpreters from Washington [Track 4] here. And one of them came up to me and said, “Does the University always do things like this? Oh no! I said, “This is very, very unusual.”[Laughing] So anyhow they got straightened out and they went ahead with it and got it going. And it turned out they put Hermano Scotegi [?] (he was from Caracas; just got a doctorate degree at the University), and he was the first president of the college down there – Joint Venture College. But I don’t know. It’s always been interesting living here. DE: Very interesting. Well, this has been Darren Edwards interviewing Ted Kindred. Here in his home in Hyrum, Utah. Thank you again for your time. The date is August 13, 2008. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted Kindred Page  23   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-11-05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ted Kindred interview, 13 August 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau, his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his local history efforts. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindred, Theodore J., 1918- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edwards, Darren Subject The topic of the resource Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Interviews Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Family Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Career in Consulting Logan Canyon (Utah) Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah) Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah) Vacation homes--Utah--Logan Canyon Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah) Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon Sun dance--Utah--Logan Canyon Holy Eagle, Chief, b. 1889 Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon Entertaining--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes Western Writers' Conference Congresses and conventions--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Hardware Ranch (Utah)--History Old Ephraim (Bear) American West Heritage Center (Wellsville, Utah) Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--History Garr, Jack Students, Foreign--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah) Hardware Ranch (Utah) Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah) Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah) Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah) Malibu (Logan Canyon, Utah) Guinavah (Logan Canyon, Utah) Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah) Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah United States Hyrum (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 7 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd7TedKindred Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 13 August 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-08-13 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/1ea510c15a238ccf9fa7358fcb64fc32.mp3 f78c986a0fdab62b3571ef694644db75 https://highway89.org/files/original/cdd79f69f24af51026686026396d0e40.pdf a76a08d31a66f0f33e03b8cae68995c3 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Ted Seeholzer Place of Interview: Date of Interview: Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office, Logan, Utah November 19, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole and Clint Pumphrey Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Randy Williams (2 March 2009 & July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in Logan Canyon. He speaks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He also talks about interactions and his relationship with the Forest Service and Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years. Reference: BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) CH = Clint Pumphrey (Interviewer; USU history graduate student) TS = Ted Seeholzer NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BC: Hi. This is Brad Cole from Special Collections and Archives at Utah State University. Today is November 19 [2008]. And we’re in Logan, Utah visiting with Ted Seeholzer at the Beaver Mountain Office – Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office. And also accompanying me today is Clint Pumphrey, a [graduate] student at Utah State University. Ted I always like to begin my interviews from the very beginning, [so] if you could tell us when and where you born? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  1   �TS: I was born in Logan, Utah – 1932; January 29, 1932. Seventy-six years ago. BC: And who were your parents? TS: Harold and Luella Seeholzer. They were both – my mom was born in Wellsville; my dad in Logan. BC: And had they lived in the valley for quite some time? TS: All their life. Dad served no military time. And the furthest dad got away from Logan; he went to New Zealand to help on the temple over there. BC: And your mother was from Wellsville you said. TS: Wellsville, yep. And her dad actually started the service station business in Cache Valley. You can see the old – there used to be a service station between 1st and 2nd North, on the east side of the road kind of where the Royal Bakery is there. BC: Um-hmm. TS: He started a service station there. One hundred years ago or more. I don’t have the pictures handy here, but we do of course have them of that. So he was instrumental. He also meddled in the horticulture business with Utah State many years ago. So our family’s been active, not just the kids. BC: Um-hmm. So did you have a greenhouse then? TS: He had a cellar. That’s all they had was a cellar over there. They’d plant the trees, of course harvest the apples and store them in there. At one time there was lots of orchards in Wellsville; lots of orchards in Wellsville. I remember as a young person going over there – the orchards. And he also had a cellar – it was a (what do you call them when they have) a co-op type thing. And then he also had his own cellar that he would use for his apples; and then he raised chickens at the same time. And I can still remember as a young man and watching them count all the eggs and this, that and the other. He was a very energetic old chap. You know, he was a “Svede” – Swede. [Laughing] And Grandma was a Dane. And they had their coffee every morning with their lumps of sugar. I can still remember that. You know, maybe I’m getting off the subject here, I don’t know. BC: That’s fine. So what were their names? TS: They were Brobie. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  2   �BC: Brobie. TS: Don’t ask me Grandma Brobie’s name before she was married, I don’t know that. I don’t recall that. Did you got to school at Logan High? BC: No, I’m actually from Pocatello. TS: From “Pocaroostie”? BC: Yeah. TS: Can I give you a little more history there. My granddad’s brother had a cobble, shoemaker, right across Logan High there on the corner – 100 years ago back in the ‘50s, the old fellar did. You know, my family’s got quite a history here in the valley. BC: Sounds like it. TS: Yeah, yeah; a lot of history. BC: So what were some of your memories of growing up in Logan in the 1930s I guess? TS: Yeah. I know that my dad’s a plather by trade, okay. He’d put lath on it for you, plaster. Of course during the Depression they did anything they could. He talks about working with the Forest Service on the PWA [Public Works Administration agency of New Deal] type stuff: going and roofing buildings, or whatever they could do to make a dollar. Dad also trapped. His dad was a game warden at that time: muskrats and beaver, that’s where some of the income was. I was born on West 3rd South and at that time Dad raised foxes and mink for market. Shortly after that the Russians came in with all of their furs and of course the mink markets went to the deuce [devil]. Dad was forced to sell and then continue with his lathing. He still trapped rats; we still have some of the traps they used. And like I say, his dad was a Fish and Game man. I remember stories about Old Ephraim. Dad and his brothers chased Old Ephraim; the same as the Crookston stories that you’ve heard. And I can’t remember the gentleman’s name that finally ended up catching Old Ephraim. [Frank Clark; see USU’s digital collection of Old Ephraim materials online.] I know that our family lived on game: deer and elk and fish and ducks and pheasant; [these] were extremely important to our meals. Dad used to illegally hunt ducks for market. Dad was a pool player I guess. Down at the old Dee Woodall Pool Hall he’d bring those ducks in there and throw them in the corner; you could take two for a dollar, put the money on the counter. That’s what Dad bought shells with and whatever else he needed. But I do remember that as a young person. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  3   �But I also remember the old automobiles and our trips to the canyon. [Getting choked up] This canyon is pretty important (excuse the tears), but it’s been alive forever. I started helping my folks [inaudible] when I was six years old and we’re still here. We are the longest family owned ski area in America. I’m proud of that; pretty proud of that. Anyway, I’ll try and collect myself here. But it’s touching. And you’ll find that the more you dig the more it means to me. So anyway, that’s what I recall. We did move from there on South Main, Logan River was right in our backyard. We could fish anytime when the stream was open. And we always hunted ducks and pheasants and those types of things. Dad got involved in the ski area in 1936 when it was at the Beaver – and then it went from there up to the Sinks. Now, if you know where the Sinks are, [they are] about a mile and a half above the state sheds up on the summit. It was there from, oh, we finally came back to the Beaver in 1947 when money was appropriated for the road through the county and the Forest Service and the state. Then the Forest Service was very instrumental in bringing the water to the area. It was in ’39 that my dad and another gentleman took over the ski area and made it go [and we’ve] been there ever since. BC: Who was the other gentleman? TS: Don Shupe. BC: Don Shupe. TS: Don Schupe was an auto body man. Shupe Auto body – it’s now (it’s no longer Shupe) – shoot on the corner of 10th North and Main. BC: Oh, is that Miller’s? TS: Millers! Don Shupe was a first cousin to Charlie Miller, or brother-in-law or whatever the situation was. And Don was there a couple of years and his back gave out on him and so he had to bow out of the picture. Jane Johnson, who was married to Max Johnson (LeGrand Johnson’s son) – it was her dad. (I mean just to give you a little relationship to people that are still alive.) And we see Jane once in a while and we kind of kid about it a little bit – what might have been, you know. So anyway, that’s the story. And I don’t know how far you want to go along with this. We came back in 1947; we put a rope-tow in. And then in 1948 we put in a T-bar. There’s a big picture around here somewhere of it. Put in the T-bar and that run there for a lot of years. That was kind of a make-shift – there was chairlifts in those days, but money wasn’t available for us to do that. There wasn’t enough skiing public, lots of things you can say why it wasn’t necessary. The size of Cache Valley wasn’t – the population that skied was very small (and it’s still not very big in relationship for a major business). Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  4   �CP: So who were most of other people who came to Beaver Mountain? Were they from the Valley? TS: That started it? CP: Just to ski there? TS: Yeah. And it still is. We probably have less than – unless you want to call it college student as a vacation skier or a transient or whatever word you want to use – then we have about 1 to 1.5% of our people are out of state or transient skiers or vacation skiers or whatever word you would attach to it. And we don’t see many of those. We’re seeing more because of developments at Bear Lake. Wasatch Front is where a good share of them come from. But we do have people who have timeshares and once they have come and skied here we seem to get them back. The problem with that is the duration of the sport that you do, that you’re real active in it: three years, five years, ten years? How long did you play tennis? How long did you play golf? How long did you play badminton? See, so this interest span, you have to have new all the time to replace the guy that’s dropping out. That’s a pretty big deal actually in our sport. You had a question? CP: Yeah. Just to go back to when you first started working at the ski resort – what kind of responsibilities did you have then? TS: Up at the Sinks – now I’m five, six, seven years old; I was born in ’32, so ’39 is what? [I’d be seven?] BC: Yeah. TS: Dad built a building there out of weedy-edge siding. I don’t know if you know what that is or not – that’s the edges when you cut timber, you don’t cut the bark off? Okay, that’s weedy-edge. Dad built a small building down there – I think 12 by 14 or 12 by 12 – I can’t recall. And Mother – that building was to serve as a warming hut and food service. Now I forgot the question you asked me. CP: What did you do? What were you responsible for? TS: Oh, what did I did do? Okay, alright. Our function as kids of course was to, of course we weren’t running lifts in them days, but we would bring the food service from up on the road, down to that building for Mother – the foods were all fixed at home: the chilies, the barbecues, that stuff was all fixed at home. And we’d carry it, all in boxes. Dad pulled a trailer behind the car (brown ’39 Chevrolet), I can remember just like it was yesterday. And then we would take that stuff down there and then we would bring it back. Sure, we had a little snow to shovel, but you know, six-seven year old, you don’t get a whole bunch out of them other than lip service. Then as we got older, 12 year old, 13 year old, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  5   �we were running – I was running a lift then. Today they would put you in jail if you did that. BC: Now up at the Sinks, there weren’t any lifts then? TS: We had this cable (we called it a rope tow); it was like a rope-tow except it was a 9/16” cable. And we had some hooks (I don’t have one here) that you would hook on the cable, wrap it around you and it would pull you up the mountain. Now, how did you keep that cable from burying you in the snow? Well on the highest spots we’d go cut an aspen, lay it on the high spots and the cable would run on that. Of course, then we only skied Saturday and Sunday, and there was a heck of lot more snow fell then than there is today, I’m here to tell you. Talk about global warming, talk about whatever you want: we don’t have the snow today we used to have. So it was always a big deal then to dig out of our buildings, we left shovels outside – couldn’t get into them if we didn’t have a shovel! So then those were the type things that Norm Mecham and I (Norm, he lives in Arizona or somewhere now). But that was our responsibility to go up and dig it out. My brother worked when he was older – he was almost eight years older than I am – so he had more responsibilities. Then he went away to school and blaty, blaty, blah. But he went in the military is where he went. ’42 he went and Uncle Sam joined him up. And then in 1947 we came back here [Beaver Mountain]. But in those days ski crowds were different than they are today. Utah State used to have a big winter carnival deal up there. And when you go up there if you look on your left-hand side going up – it’s pretty steep mountain there – and they used to build huge snow sculptures. I don’t mean these snowmen kids make out in their backyards; I mean 12, 15, 18 foot high snow sculptures of like the pyramid stuff is what they would build; or horse and buggy-type thing. Literally shape them. It was a big deal. Somewhere I have those pictures. I don’t have them now. BC: And that would have been in the 1940s? TS: That would have been in the ‘40s, yep. But see to prior to that Utah State held their winter carnivals down at the old CC Camp [CCC: Civil Conservation Corps], right there on that hill. Yeah. And Logan High used to hold a winter carnival down there also. BC: And the CC Camp, that was at the Sinks area? TS: No, The CC Camp is – do you know where the road to go to Tony Grove is? BC: Um-hmm. TS: Okay. Right across the street from that, they call it USU Training Center now. BC: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  6   �TS: But that’s the old CC Camp. And of course that come out of the Depression, like the PWA did. And Utah State held their winter carnival – because it wasn’t until 1939 that the road to Logan Canyon was open to Bear Lake; ’39 it opened to go to Bear Lake and that’s what permitted us to move the ski area from down where it was, up to the Sinks. Because we had to walk in; we parked down on the highway down there and walked into the ski area. BC: At Beaver? TS: At Beaver, yeah. We didn’t go around the road – we cut through, you know; walked across the creek and walked through the draw I’m telling you where the rock deal was? That’s the canyon we went up. Now I’m jumping all over, but my feeble mind doesn’t always work in a straight [line]! CP: Yeah, well since you mentioned the road, maybe we could talk about that a little bit. In the early days – in the ‘40s when you first started having a big role in managing the ski resort – what was it like getting up to the ski resort through the canyon from Logan? TS: In most cases the road was plowed like it is now. Of course, let’s be honest – the plow trucks then probably went 20 miles an hour; today they’ll go 40-plus, or 30-plus, whatever the turns will permit them to. The roads were in good shape, but what would happen was the road would narrow and narrow and narrow because they didn’t have the quality equipment to blow that snow off the side 100 yards or 100 feet or whatever. And they did not use graders (patrollers with the wing on them) where they could come along and slice the top of that off so the next time the truck come it could blow it over the bank. And I’ll guarantee you they’ve made strides in building roads to help winter. Because you never build a road lower than the sub-grade out the side. Because when the wind blows, all the snow goes on the road. So you elevate the road so the snow blows crossed it. And they have done that in several places in the canyon. But the road equipment today is far superior. You have better tires on your automobile; you also have more four-wheel drives. So driving today is much easier than it was then. But in conversation with a lot of ladies that drive, it’s a terrible road! It’s unsafe! It ought to be closed! My goodness lady! [Laughing] CP: So what was the condition of the actual road in the ‘40s when you first started working? Was it paved all the way? TS: It was paved all the way – it was paved to Garden City. But it was much, much narrower. Over the years they have been able to widen the road in various places. Environmental restraints stop the road, like in the Forks, on up through there – environmental restraints have inhibited the width of that: right, wrong or indifferent it depends on which side of the fence you’re on. My complaint about the narrow road is that one tree blown across the road can stop traffic and I’m saying, “Wait a minute. Is this modern times or is this horse and buggy stuff?” And that’s one little complaint I have about some of the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  7   �restrictions. I am very environmental. But I’m also on the safe side for you and I to travel the roads. BC: Yeah. TS: That’s where I’m coming from on that. We could do things to ruin that ski area, but we won’t do it; we won’t do it. Because once we take all the trees, once we push all the brush off and those things, now we’ve ruined the aesthetics and you’re probably not going to come up there. At least that’s our thinking; now maybe our thinking isn’t good. But that is our thinking on it. We’re in need of some more parking lot but we don’t have any place to go other than start cutting down trees. We’re not very enthusiastic about that. We’re in conversation with the state to use some of the flatland down below and they’re not very enthusiastic about that! Because of aesthetics. So what do you do? You say okay, we’ve only got parking for 800 cars and when anybody else comes, we send you home? Is that what you do? I guess it is. When the restaurant is full you sit down and wait until somebody leaves, don’t you? BC: Yeah, that’s true. TS: And that’s the only answer I have right now because my wife is part of this; one daughter and one son and their significant others. And I think they feel like I do, that we’re not willing to cut down trees to make a place for you to park: right, wrong or indifferent. So anyway, I keep getting off the subject. CP: That’s fine. I just wanted to ask you I guess during the 1960s they started to widen some of the road down here closer to Logan; and then during the ‘70s and ‘80s it was kind of in a gridlock because you know, they had to do the environmental assessment on the rest of the road to see if they could widen it further or straighten it further. And there was a lot of discussion I guess, in the valley and elsewhere, about how they should go about doing that. And there were some people I guess who were very, very much for the straightening and widening so they could get back and forth to the ski area, to Bear Lake – TS: Well not just ski area, but Bear Lake, but consider one other thing; think about one other thing besides you and I to ski and to camp and that. This guy that lives in Bear Lake – he doesn’t have access to a quality hospital. He has access to an ambulance, he has access to an ambulance – but he is 40 miles away if he lives in Garden City, from a quality hospital. Now do we deprive him of that privilege? CP: Right. TS: He’s got a hospital in Montpelier that’s like this one down here was 10 years ago. See. So there’s more to it than just a place for you and I to drive; there’s other people to think about to in the use of that – CP: So when all that debate was going on, did the people at the ski resort at all get involved with the discussion with the – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  8   �TS: I sit on the board on Logan Canyon to decide – not decide – put input into the decision to do what we do with the highway. We are restricted extremely by the Corps of Engineers. The Corps of Engineers will decide what you’re going to do. Let me give you one example of what our group did just on the last section from the dug way – from the twin bridges – up. Okay originally there was a design on that big cut right at the top of the twin bridges, to take and cut that side off and go out around the side where all the timber is. We sat there and looked at that and said, “What kind of a fool’s trick is that? Why don’t we go this way, move the bridge downstream, we’ve got a barren hole here that we could lay the sides back, whatever degree you want. We’re going to cut down a few trees, very few, and you pull the road out of the shade and you put it up here on the hill and you don’t cut down all this old forest.” Well imagine that! Somebody else can think just a little bit too! So it’s just things like that, that they have people like me on the board because we all have tunnel vision occasionally. BC: And that board – you called the Logan Canyon Board? TS: I’ll think of the name of it in a minute. There’s ten people sit on it. And you know what? I’m the only one that doesn’t have my hand in the county or state’s pocket. I’m the only person that doesn’t draw a paycheck from a government agency. BC: So that was a sort of inner-governmental board? TS: Yeah, it’s still there. It’s still in effect. I would be getting called in – they’re getting close to doing a piece from the Beaver on up over to the Summit. My mind is getting weaker, but I’ll think of the name of that board in a minute. There’s ten of us on there but I’m the only one that doesn’t belong to a government agency. BC: So how do you feel with all the input and push and take – how do you feel like the road project came out? TS: I think it was good. See, had you been here 30 years ago that road from the head of the dugway was going to have cut right across the mountains and come in at Ricks Spring. It would have crossed the river twice. See the thinking on roads has changed so much in the last 50 years or 40 years. Years ago it was a straight line was the shortest route and the best route. Well, in some cases yes, but many cases, no. That would have been a hell of a mess if we’d have cut through and built a bridge across the road there and then cut that mountain and crossed the river again to come in at Rick’s Spring. And see you’d have the same thing at Hattie’s Grove. Instead of going around the bend and up – cut a chunk on the upper end of Hattie’s Grove off and Bear Hole, then up to the cattle guard. To me that wasn’t an appropriate route in those days – or even today even. So by getting more people together and talking about it – and you’re always going to have conflicts. No, I think they’ve done a good job on the road. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  9   �Mr. Weston who used to sit on the State’s – he used to sit on the UDOT Board [Utah Department of Transportation] (he used to be the president – they have a committee just like everybody else, the state does). He thought, “Well,” he said, “We’re going to get this middle section of the road done. We’re going to get that done eventually.” He says, “Now what we have is an hourglass. We’ve got good road on this end. We’ve got good road on this end, and we shrink down in the middle.” He thought that the public would demand that they do something through there. Well guess what? It won’t be in my lifetime. It won’t be in my lifetime that that will happen. And there’s not much in my mind that they can do there. Where do you go? You’ve got [a] steep mountain here and you’ve got river there. Where are you going? Are you going to put an overhand over the river and let them drive out there? [Laughing] You going to put up on the mountain 100 yards to get 10 more feet of road? I don’t think so. The only thing that I can see that gets obnoxious is that they elevate the road, raise the road up itself and leave the mountains. That ain’t gonna happen either. See, that’s what they were going to do in Little Cottonwood Canyon because of avalanches. BC: Hmm. They were going to elevate it? TS: No. What they were going to do is they were going to build a wall here and build a bridge over the road – just the opposite – and let the avalanches go over the road. Oh yeah! There was a big study on that. Because it’s big dollars! Huge dollars! And believe me, money talks! If you don’t think so, look at the last election. [Laughing] Let’s not get into that one. But anyway, you know we’ve done a lot of things at the resort and a lot of changes take place. Roads are important; I’ve been screaming for seven or eight years now that they get our entrance to the Beaver changed. And I finally got it this summer. Because see, what was happening there when you came out of the Beaver you would start a right hand turn – here comes the highway and you couldn’t see back up the road to see if anybody was coming because the snow was piled too high. And let’s be honest – the State can’t be responsible for every little piece of snow that you and I can’t see over; they just can’t do it. And so by making it come straight out at the road, now you and I can see up and down the road. Built a passing lane. Good. We haven’t had many accidents – to my knowledge we’ve never had a real serious accident there; we’ve never had a death. So maybe it wasn’t all that important. I’ve been cussed by a couple of people because it is a little inconvenient to turn and then have to get down, whereas the other way they’d be on the turn. But that’s okay, they’ll get over it. I think it’s a good thing. So yes. BC: So after you moved back down to Beaver when did the first major lifts come in? You said you had a rope tow and T-bar? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  10   �TS: We had a rope-tow and then we put the T-bar in. Put the T-bar in ’48. BC: Um-hmm. And how far did the T-bar go up the mountain? TS: Okay. The T-bar went up about 1800-1900 feet. That was in ’47-’48. Then in 1960 we put the first chair lift in. That would be the Face Lift. It’s still there and it’s still in the same place. It hasn’t been remodeled; it does have a new drive; it does have new bull wheels top and bottom. Still use the same chairs, new rope; same terminals. So it’s basically the same place. The ticket office that’s there now was built in ’47. One of these days we’re going to find enough money to get it out of there. And in 1964 we put the Little Beaver Lift in. And the same year we put that in we built the Lodge. Now the Lodge has only been remodeled six times since we originally built it. And we’ve got a big addition going on it right now. And then in 1967 we put the T-bar in – which neither one of you I think has seen run. It was one of them good ideas that didn’t work. [Laughs] And then in 1969-70 we put the Dream Lift in. And then six years ago, whatever that was, we put Marge’s Triple in. Then we built a tube hill and that was another one of those good ideas that didn’t work. The only thing that we salvaged out of that is the yurt and the yurt deck. We turned that into – well we rent it out during the summer, okay. But now it’s rented every weekend in the winter (with family groups or birthday parties or whatever; some are a few weddings, things like that, family reunions, church groups, scout groups). But the yurt wasn’t a terrible investment, but the lift [to tow tubers up the hill] was. Of course we were able to sell that so that wasn’t too serious. CP: So when – I guess maybe we’re jumping ahead a little bit – so when snowboarding first became popular was there any discussion at all about what Beaver Mountain would allow and what they wouldn’t? TS: No. In the original – when snowboards first came out they had an organization (don’t ask me the name of it) that they had for boarders and had a gentleman from Salt Lake that would come up here, a young person. And he would watch you with your board and see what you could do with your board. And when he decided that you had the ability to get on the lift and off the lift with your board then he would give you a piece of paper or slip that said we may sell you a lift ticket because you now have the ability to board and get off the lift. Okay, at first we restricted them from Little Beaver. Why did we do that? Because we felt that the ability of a boarder to handle his board, we were concerned about mixing two beginners. We also used to keep them off the ridge for the same thing. And all that happened there was it created a big argument between our ski patrol and the boarders, because the boarders were always deaf to the ski patrol, to see if they could get down there without getting caught. But then what happened about the third year with boards – I jumped over this – boards did not have medal edges. Just like skis didn’t used to have medal edges. And so the industry said, “Wait a minute. You have got to have medal edges.” And why? Control, control. And so then they started to put medal edges on them Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  11   �and I think probably better bindings and blaty-blaty-blaty-blah. And today it’s – I think there’s only three ski areas in the United States that don’t permit them and two of them are in Utah: Alta and Deer Valley. And that’s a business decision they’ve made. So I don’t think you ever will see them at Deer Valley; I think someday possibly at Alta. And the reason I say that – these kids, the skiers and snowboarders now – they hang together, they all come up in the same car or whatever. They’re not like before, in my recollection of snowboards is that they were one bunch and skiers were another bunch; they didn’t co-mingle, but they do today. They ski the mountain together, they ride the same chair and eat lunch and all that. So Alta (between us girls) is actually losing skier days. Finest ski area in America, there ain’t nothing better than Alta. BC: Yeah. TS: Bar none. It’s the best. Their older set that skied there forever – the Spence Eccles and those types – do not want to mingle with the snowboarders because they’re a little lower grade of people. [Laughing] That’s the philosophy! And they have convinced Donald and before him Chick Martin, that Alta would be a better ski area without them. I do know of some things that we have problems with boarders. One is visibility, and we do have more collisions with boarders than we do with skiers. That is a problem. They’re smart-mouthed (boarders), but you know what? There are smart-mouthed skiers too! CP: Yeah. TS: It doesn’t all – just because you’ve got a board on you you can use bad language because you could put skis on you and use the same language. That’s kind of a far-fetched deal there. But no, boarding has changed a great deal and it’s probably 47-50% of our business. We haven’t done a little survey in a while. Depends on the day; depends on the day how many boarders we get. I think boarders are becoming more acceptable than they were 15 years ago, or 10 or five even. I have concerns over some over the other gimmicks that we’re using: bicycles on the mountain on snow. I have concerns over that. We talk about – I don’t know if you’ve ever – do you ski? CP: I do. TS: Okay. Have you seen them up there on their – they’re not a bicycle with tires but they sit on it, yeah. I have a problem with them in that they don’t have anything on their feet. And so when they get on and get off the lift they can leave bad marks in the snow. CP: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  12   �TS: I think they have good control. Most of the people I’ve seen on them are a little older set. 100 years ago when Merlin Olsen and them guys were skiing we had what we called a “sit ski” and it was very similar to these. And my hell, when them guys would fall they’d leave a crater a size of this room! [Laughing] And not just him; I just can remember – I’m trying to think of the other guy that used to play football same time Merlin did. Both of them skied. My hell they’d get in the chair on the Face Lift together, the chair would almost come off the rope! [Laughing] Because, you know, they were both big people. But we don’t have them to rent and we probably won’t. How many things do you let on your mountains? You know? I think there’s a limit to what should be permitted on a mountain to have fun with. If somebody else wants to do it, that’s fine. And that’s Alta’s thinking on the snowboard and that’s Deer Valley’s thinking on the snowboard: let them go someplace else. There is a place for them so, there you go. CP: So I assume you’re a skier yourself? TS: Yep. CP: How long have you been doing that? All [of] your life? TS: Yeah. I won my first race at Alta at the age of 12. CP: Yeah? TS: I won at Snowbasin at the age of ten, before they had a lift. I won a metal at the NC2A [NCAA]. CP: Okay. TS: So, been around a little bit; been around a little bit. BC: So have you tried to snowboard? TS: No! [Laughing] No, something we ought to have at our resort is we ought to rent padding for first-timers. [Laughing] And thumb restraints. Because that’s what we’re hurting; we’re hurting thumbs, elbows and shoulders with boarders. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  13   �BC: Um-hmm; right. TS: The thing about boarding – a boarder the first day and a half, two days has more trouble than the skiers. But by the third day he run off and hide from skiers. It’s a faster learned sport. At least that’s what we’re seeing; even with or without lessons, it doesn’t seem to make that much difference. I don’t know why it’s easier to stand on a plank with two feet than it is to have two feet out here. I don’t understand that. But they do, they just run and hide from skiers. Yeah. CP: Um-hmm. TS: The demand that we have now for board use – we entertain a lot of schools. Last year I think we had 32 different schools. Some of them came twice, but not many – and the big demand was for boards. It cramps us to have enough boards for all the kids that want them. Another thing that’s happening in the ski industry in the last three years really has been strong is the helmets. And we have some helmets to rent, but on the weekends we pretty much rent whatever (I don’t know we’ve got 12 or 15 of them). When these kids’ schools come, every kid wants a helmet. CP: Um-hmm. TS: Are they necessary? I don’t know. I think there’s a deterrent with them. If you’re not going to fall and hit a tree, I don’t think you need one. If you’re going to hit the tree the next turn, then I think you better have one on! [Laughing] But they don’t solve all the problems; I’m sure they solve a hell of a lot of them, but they don’t solve them all. Like the girl that hit the tree up at Beaver last winter and broke her neck. But she hit – I mean I’m sure she had good speed – but it just pshh and that was it. If she’d had a concrete block on there she would’ve still done it; it’s just one of those things. And they happen. Thank goodness that’s the only second one in our ski area career, you know we feel good. We don’t feel good about it; we feel good that we’ve only had two. BC: Could you tell us a little bit about your relationship with the Forest Service? How does the ski area work within the National Forest? I assume you don’t own all the land, but do you own some of it, or . . . ? TS: None. BC: None. Okay. TS: Incidentally right now it is not owned by the National Forest. It’s owned by the SITLA. You know SITLA is the School Institute for Trust Land. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  14   �BC: Right, okay. TS: Years ago, early, early in life doing business (and I’m talking now when I’m 15, 16, 17 years old) listening to my dad talk to Owen Despain and all the other Forest Rangers that we’ve had; and MJ Roberts and on and on – Dave . . . BC: Baumgartner. TS: Yeah. Until environmental thing became strong we could do about whatever we wanted. In other words if we wanted to cut a trail here, we could cut a trail there; if we wanted to build a road here, we could build a road here. And then as the environmental movement got stronger, now we were more restricted; we had to do assessments and blahty-blahtyblah. And I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but you asked about the association. BC: Right. TS: Life with MJ Roberts, when he was Ranger up here, became almost unbearable. BC: And when would he have been Ranger? TS: Dave Baumgartner replaced him. BC: Okay. So Dave came at about 1990 – TS: Yeah, 1990-something. But see MJ Roberts had a long, long span. MJ Roberts and I did not get along; at all. I guess we were both too hard-headed. BC: [Laughing] TS: Dad got along with MJ. But I couldn’t. MJ insisted on – we wanted to drill for water – MJ wouldn’t let us drill for water. You know why? Because he didn’t want a ski area on the National Forest. We had to have water! We were getting two gallons a minute from the Logan Canyon side through a pipe that was buried that deep [gesturing]. We had winters that that froze up – then what did we do? We hauled water up there in milk trucks and pumped up to the reservoir and then feed it back in during the day for our restrooms. There was things that wanted to go on Mount Logan that MJ – that would take power up there to run the microwaves and stuff that’s up there – MJ about had a fit! He wouldn’t let them put them on the poles because that was visible, and he also wouldn’t let them dig a trench because of erosion. So he was kind of anti-everything. The forest itself I don’t think was that way. You have to understand that every Forest Ranger runs his own district as if he owned it. BC: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  15   �TS: Then when Dave Baumgartner got in – and others – life became a little easier because they could see all they was doing was tying our hands. There is a demand for skiing; there is a demand for picnic grounds; there is a demand for motor bikes. We have to have sacrifice areas. It can’t all be trees and cows and deer and elk. That forest is used by everybody; we all own it. We can’t destroy it; we can’t destroy it, but wise use. The difference between an MJ Roberts and Dave Baumgartner was let’s see what we can do and do it right. Fred Lebar was my mentor and he was Assistant Ranger under MJ Roberts. Fred Lebar could see – if I told you where we took the material on top of the mountain to build the Dream Lift, you’d call me a fibbing liar. I mean we pulled everything on top of the mountain behind dozers up roads that were that steep. Because MJ didn’t want a road built (which would have been much nicer). You go up there in the summer, you look up the rig and you see that road. BC: Yeah, huh. TS: We wouldn’t have had to build that road if he’d been not so dang hard-headed. So what happens? You build a road straight up a mountain – which way does water run? Straight down. You can build [in] all the cross members you want; until the sheep lay in them and knock them down and then you’re right back where you started again. But anyway, after Fred Lebar came in, I talked some sense into Fred; he talked MJ into letting us drill for water. He talked him into building better roads; a road that was out of sight out of mind to the top of the mountain. You can’t see it from the highway anywhere, and we could use it without all the watershed problems, this, that and the other. Then President Clinton made the Escalante Staircase down there a National Monument. BC: Monument, yeah. TS: Underneath that evidently is a lot of coal. And of course SITLA owned that land, but when they made it a National Park now SITLA was booted out. So in order to satisfy SITLA to replenish their income, they gave SITLA the privilege of choosing the land that they would like to own to replace what they had lost down there. Well that went on for two years and the attorneys fought and fought and finally the President stepped in and said, “Hey this is bullshit. You take what you need without disturbing the forest and the forest will relinquish it and do all these trades.” Well SITLA owned 17,000 acres of land in Franklin Basin. SITLA has one thing in mind, and that’s to make money. That’s their sole function is to make money. They were making somewhere between $2500 and $3000 a year leasing that out to sheep and cows. Not very much is it? The first year they claimed and took over Beaver Mountain they got a check for $30,000 – which would you rather own? [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  16   �You know? You don’t have to be too bright to figure that one out. The difference between SITLA and the forest is that SITLA wants you to do things that make money, because if you make money, we make money. Now, we run stuff by SITLA – we just had a meeting with them here a while ago. We’re up against a master plan; the county says we got to do a new one. So we met with SITLA and told them of things we wanted to do and they pretty much approved everything except a parking lot down on the road. Well, okay if they’re not willing to do that then we’re going to have to restrict people (some days) that want to come skiing. That’s just the way it works. Other than that, we pretty much have a green light. We do need more water if we ever want to make snow. We have enough water to give you a drink and flush the toilet. But if we ever want to make snow we do not have enough. SITLA would love to take all that land down there and develop it. I think it’s a ways off. I think it’s a long ways off after seeing – well we’ve all seen. We have some friends in Bear Lake that want to do some things with us up there to try and entice people to buy their property. And I talked to them the other day and they said, “Forget that for awhile because there isn’t any money.” There isn’t any money. BC: Yeah. TS: But that’s the difference. One wants you to do things to make money, the other was more apprehensive about growth, about growth. We never see SITLA. The only time we see them is when we send them a check! [Laughing] BC: So when you worked with the Forest Service did you actually have to buy a lease from them? Or how does that -- ? TS: Okay. SITLA and the forest – it used to be that we could get a ten year lease, then it went twenty, okay? Large ski area that have to borrow millions and millions of dollars, the banks wouldn’t loan them any money. So it took about six or seven years of the National Ski Area Association to go to Congress and say, “Look, we have got to extend the lease that permits on these ski areas because these people can’t grow. We need the long term to borrow money. We don’t need more land until we need more.” I mean you know how that works, you know? BC: Yeah. TS: I don’t need more potatoes until I empty my plate you know? And so finally they got the Forest Service to give us a 40 year permit; 40 year permit. SITLA doesn’t like it. I don’t care whether SITLA likes it or not! If I’m going to spend millions of dollars I want to know that my permit is safe; I want to know that my permit is safe. I’m not going up there to invest millions in this place and some attorney in Salt Lake that sits on SITLA’s board and says, “That’s too long of a lease.” I don’t give a damn what he thinks! You want to put your money into it Jack? So they’ve been pretty good. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  17   �They have wanted to re-write it. We have two permits there because at one time on the Beaver, on the Dream Lift – there’s 31 acres there on a run we call Gentle Ben that belonged to the forest. So (this is after the land trade) then we had to get another permit for that. Wait a minute, maybe I’m telling you the wrong story here. That was state land, that’s right. That was state land when it was forest because that little piece in there belonged to the state. The state owned the other side. So we had to get a permit from SITLA to use that 31 acres. Well now we’re still carrying that 31 acres and we’re carrying the other one for 1000 acres. And they’re kind of holding that over our head a little bit. Instead of putting both of them together (it would save us a little bit of money, but no very darn much). They want to re-write the permit and go from a 40 year permit (we’re good until 2038). And see then what we want in a permit is an automatic extension for five years and five years. Now, how good is our permit? I don’t know. BC: Yeah. TS: Until somebody really tests it and somebody wants to own Beaver Mountain and wants to kick us out, I guess that’s the day we’ll test it. My personal opinion is, the way it would really be tested if somebody came in and wanted to develop all this down here, wanted to take this 3000 acres and they wanted the ski area to do it and so they put the bite on the state, says, “We won’t do it unless we own the ski area.” Then I think you’d start to see some fur fly. I think that’s when it would get down dirty and ugly. But that’s not going to happen in my lifetime. Because the money isn’t out there to buy. Bear Lake’s got what? 500 lots over there to sell? BC: Yeah. TS: Why would you buy one at Beaver Mountain? If you wanted to use Bear Lake’s you’ve got the 12-15 mile travel; you could own one at Bear Lake and sit on the lake in the golf course, if you want to go skiing you drive your 13 miles, go skiing and come back to your place. That’s what I think. To me, Beaver Mountain is not a very attractive place, unless that’s all you want to do and have a summer home. Then Beaver Mountain is not a very attractive place. Whoever does it has a got a big row to hoe: they’ve got to bring more power in. Now sewage is the big problem; we can bring power in and we can drill for water – but something’s got to happen to that sewage. CP: Yeah. TS: And if you come in there with a 500 unit development or 200 unit development – that’s a hell of a lot of sewage. CP: You can’t just get a septic tank, you know. TS: That’s BIG septic tank! We have seven septic tanks. We have seven septic tanks and we pump them twice a year. Knock on wood, our drain fields are still holding up. See, a lot of that land up there is clay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  18   �BC: Yeah. TS: And clay doesn’t take water. Well, when we hit a rock bed we just jump up and down! We just jump up and down. But you know, I don’t think it’s going to happen for awhile. But that was SITLA’s mission: to make money for the state of Utah. BC: Right. TS: And they do make a lot of money. They do make a lot of money for the state. They have coal fields and that down there that are generating $100,000 a month! That’s a lot of money for the school systems! A lot of money, that’s fine. The only thing I object to is that Cache County charges us property tax on that land – not on the lift and that (they charged on that, and that’s fine), but they are charging us property tax on that (I call it real property) – BC: Right. TS: Okay, as if we owned it as developable property. They’re saying out of this 1,000 acres, 800 of it is developable. And I’m saying, “Bullcrap.” BC: Yeah. TS: It’s not developable! You’re not going to build on 32% slopes! CP: [Laughing] TS: And I haven’t been able to convince them (and I haven’t taken them to court) over the fact that we really don’t want to give you $30,000 in taxes for something we don’t own. BC: No. TS: Now, it ought to be one or the other: we either ought to pay the state or we ought to pay the county. One of the two, but not both, at least that’s my thinking. I’m sure I’d get some arguments over that. [Phone ringing] Yeah, that’s my wife. Excuse me, please. CP: Sure. [Stop and start recording] CP: Make sure it’s going there. Alright, we’re back. So we were just talking about your relationship with government agencies and things that you have leases from and everything, for the ski area. Just to kind of maybe get a base line here – we talked about SITLA and the Forest Service; there’s some state land that you all lease from right now. When you first started working at the ski resort was the land ownership different than it is today? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  19   �TS: Well the land ownership when we first started, either up at the Sinks or down at the Beaver, was all Forest Service land. Either place it was. And then – hmm, I’d have to look it up, but probably nine years ago it was turned over to SITLA, which is the School of Institutional Trust Lands and they became the landlords. Their function is to develop the land and make money for the school systems. So it’s just been the two different land owners; both of them with very different missions – not different missions, but different attitudes. One wants to make money and the other doesn’t care whether they make money or not because they get a blood transfusion every July. But SITLA needs to make their own money for themselves, the people that run it and also for the school systems. So that in essence is the two different people that we do business with. We do have to account to Cache County for all building permits, for taxes, for building inspections, for food service inspections, for water testing, all of those types of things. So we’re just like any other. We’re almost [like a] city in that we have to adhere to all the rules and regulations almost that Logan City would have to adhere to. Safe drinking water, fire prevention, water systems for fire – you name it. We do have ambulance service up there, we do have ski patrol that has excellent facilities to take care of injured; we do not have the ability to shock a patient in case of some heart problems from afibrillation – we do not have that, but almost that good of communications with them. As soon as the county gets this 800 megahertz [MHz] in, then we will have direct support from the hospital to run some of this equipment that we do not have – oh, you get 100 people and somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing, but with the direct support from the hospital and this 800 MHz comes in will be a good thing. It will also mean that the Fire, Sheriff’s Department, Police Department can talk all the way through Logan Canyon without the help of repeaters. They’ve tested it; they can talk right from Third Dam to Garden City from the top of the Beaver. And this side is being developed; they’ll build it next year which will be a good thing. There’s no site up there for cell phones; there’s a little difficulty there going on between the state and federal government because the state wants it on their land because they make a lot of money off of cell phone towers. CP: Um hum. TS: SITLA has given the state the right of way over the land to get to Beaver Mountain. But also written in that right of way is the fact that they will not be permitted to put cell phones on their tower. CP: Ah. TS: Right, wrong or indifferent, when you have the power you can do what the deuce you want, you know? CP: Right. TS: If you have to ask permission you do what you are told usually. That’s the way it works. So, it will be a good thing. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  20   �CP: So, can you think of any government policies: national, local, state policies that have had a major impact on your operations over the years? TS: The big thing was when they made our permits to the National Ski Area Association they made the permits for forty years. But also within that system is the fee system; it’s locked in for forty years. With so much based on income; as you make more money you pay more. It’s based on a million income, two million, three, four, five up to a hundred million dollars: which some ski areas would do; some of your large Colorado areas. And it is all predicated on the dollar’s worth. When the dollars up it costs us a little more and when the dollars down it costs us a little less. It is something that set in concrete so small little resorts don’t have to go negotiate that with our Forest or the state or whoever owns the land. If you are on private land then that is something else. But we do pay income taxes on every dollar that comes in like anybody else. We do pay sales tax. We do have a small exemption on sales tax and that is for the lifts, our snow making equipment, our snow grooming equipment. Now why did the state of Utah do that? Because Colorado has no sales tax on lift tickets; so we compete directly with Colorado for skiers. (Not Beaver Mountain so much but the Salt Lake resorts.) So the Utah Ski Association met with the legislator a number of years ago and said “Hey look, we are at a disadvantage; we need something to kind of offset this sales tax on lift tickets.” So they did give us the exemption on the purchase of ski lifts, on the maintenance of them and on snow making and on snow vehicles: over the ground vehicles. But that is the only break we get. CP: So how has the environmental movement changed what you do at the ski area? Have there been any laws enacted or anything like that or environmental laws that have changed how you [do things]? TS: Not that I am aware of. The state is not immune to the environmental movement. But they are immune to . . . In other words if SITLA did not want to adhere to Cache County rules they wouldn’t have to. They’d just tell the County to go jump in the lake. They may end up in court. I’m not saying they wouldn’t do that. But, I remember a statement that the director of SITLA [made]. He came up here I took him around and introduced him to all the [Cache] County Commissioners and Lynn Lemon and all those people that’s involved in that, our state representatives when this thing was taking place. And the lady who was chairman of the County Commission asked this person “Well, would you adhere to County zoning?” And he said “Yes, if it doesn’t interfere with what we want to do.” What did he tell her? “Yeah, if you don’t bother us, we’ll go along with you.” You know. CP: Right. TS: So that’s between the state and the county. Our deal with the county, we have a master plan: we work on a master plan. We have to submit drawings, we have to get building permits. Blah de blah de blah; so nothing’s really changed. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  21   �CP: So aside for that one forest ranger that you mentioned, your relationships has been pretty good with the government? TS: They have, they have. You have to give and take. You can’t be overly demanding, but you have to go in and – See the difference between the Beaver Mountain and the Forest Service: we have to make money because we don’t get a blood transfusion every 12 months; we have to make our own money. And if they make life so miserable and so expensive that we can’t make a profit and then we cease to exist. So they have to be (I don’t know what word I want to use here) but they have to be sympathetic to our needs because Beaver Mountain entertains more people on that 1,000 acres of land than the Forest Service does – not on the whole Cache – but on the Cache/Blacksmith fork/Logan Canyon and then up toward Richmond. We entertain more people than all the campgrounds and that put together on this part of the Cache except maybe during the deer hunt. CP: Whoa. TS: So as far as campers, trailers, hikers, bikers, horse riders; we entertain more than they do. We entertained last year 87,000 people. CP: So what kind of – you know, 87,000 now – what kind of increase have you seen since you started working at Beaver Mountain? TS: When I was a kid and we were up at the Sinks, lift tickets were $1 a day. And I can remember when $39 was a big day. CP: Wow! TS: This book right here you saw me digging out? CP: Uh-huh? TS: That book, that book is one that my folks kept that tells what money income was at the ski area. For example, (let me go back) – [flipping through pages of a book] CP: This is a ledger? TS: Yeah, this is a ledger. CP: With the date? TS: This is the date: on December 15, 1956 we took in $47.25 on the lift and $13.30 on the shelter, in 1956. CP: Uh-huh. Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  22   �TS: So how many people is that? I don’t know what lift tickets were at that time. This doesn’t tell me. For the month of December we generated $1,128; in the food service we generated $331. CP: That’s where the money is, or was then. TS: Yeah! I mean, you know. And here it says it started a lift December 19, 1954. December 19 they did $41.25 on the lift and $12.80 on food service. The month of December we did $175.50 on the lifts. That’s not very much money! CP: No, no. Especially now, with passes being a few hundred dollars, so. TS: And this goes back – I talked to you about the Mount Logan Winter Carnival; Mount Logan Ski Club Carnival – here’s all the people that raced and the times. And a lot of these people are still alive, like Jerry Wallace and Max Sears, John Croft – these are people that are my age. Eldon Larsen’s dead, but I mean that doesn’t mean anything to you, but my dad kept records of everything. CP: Yeah. So what years, what time periods does that book cover there? TS: [Looking in the book] March 10, 1946. And here’s the cross country, the snow sculpture I talked to you about snow sculpturing. CP: Uh-huh. TS: American Vets Rotary Club Mountain something, somebody – I can’t remember. (Some of the book’s had water spilled on it.) But this book here, this little one, gives all the times that our people worked. This one is not so old here; who worked, how many hours and what their pay was. It’s kind of fun to dig back in that when we paid people $2.20 and hour. CP: Right, right. TS: You know, kids in high school. CP: So how have people’s demands changed? Skiers’ demands changed over the decades? TS: Well. CP: I’m sure what skiers expect from Beaver Mountain is much different than something they might expect somewhere in Park City, or – TS: Right, right. It depends. Skiers today want lifts that run good, lifts that are comfortable; they would like high speed lifts. Beaver Mountain can’t afford high speed lifts for a couple of reasons: first of all the expense in buying them; and second of all, the expense Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  23   �in hiring the qualified people to run the electrical system in them. See you would need – on high speed lifts – you have to hire EEs (Electrical Engineers). CP: Really? TS: What would you have to pay an Electrical Engineer? $50, $60, $70,000 a year? Psh. Maybe $80 maybe $90? That’s a lot of money! CP: Right. TS: Where we can get guys with the lifts we have now, we can hire them for 35-$40,000. CP: Um-hmm. TS: But the public does want the faster lifts; they want better groomed ski runs (which we have the ability to do); they want good food, fast; they want a place to lounge (which you can’t always supply – you get 1,000 people, you’re lodge holds 300 you know, somebody’s going to have to leave) that’s a problem for us. We do not have the problems with our clientele that the Salt Lake resorts do. Why? Most of our skiers are local. 85% of their skiers are out of state, probably people that make a little more money who seem to be more demanding. Now somebody don’t misunderstand what I just said, “seem to be.” You can talk to the guys and gals that work at Alta on the lifts and they’re very happy when spring comes because they’re tired of putting up with people who are demanding. CP: Right. TS: The Deer Valley will tell you the same thing; Park City will tell you the same thing. We have a totally different – not totally – but pretty much different clientele than they have. So a ski area ought to be a fun place to work, because whomever’s there is having fun; they want to have fun. They’re there for enjoyment. Maybe they only take one ride and go out and tailgate the rest of the day. CP: Yeah. TS: But that’s their entertainment! That’s what they do! Who says that because you buy a lift ticket that you’ve got to make 15 runs a day? It’s an activity, it’s a sport, it’s a recreation, it’s a happening. CP: Yeah, yeah. TS: And we’re seeing more and more of that all the time. We’re selling, oh 4 or 5,000 season passes. Do you think them people are going to come up there everyday and beat their head against the wall and run, run, run? No. They’re there for the experience; they’re there to have fun; they’re there to socialize. CP: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  24   �TS: That’s good. That’s the way it should be; that’s the way it should be. Sure we have young people that come up there (and older ones) that they got to get as many runs as they can get because they spent $38 for a lift ticket and “by God, I’m going to get my money!” Fine, fine. You can ski just as dang hard as you want. It doesn’t bother me. If you want to go out and tailgate on your parking lot and fix whatever you fix – fine with me! Just don’t leave your mess! [Laughing] CP: So then back in the ‘40s, you’re saying that basically the people just wanted a way to get up the mountain and – TS: Okay. Back in the ‘40s we had a different ski area than we got today. CP: Right. TS: Back in the ‘40s you had the outdoor, mountaineering-type person – that was rugged (I don’t like that word), but the rugged type individual. Today what have we got? The sick, the lame and the lazy! [Laughing] Included with these others. CP: Right. TS: Who would’ve ever thought back in 1940 that you would have had adaptive scheme for somebody that didn’t have his legs. CP: Mm-hmm. TS: Or somebody that didn’t have any arms; or somebody that couldn’t stand up that had to be in a wheelchair. Who would’ve ever thought of that in 1940? We’ve got them everyday up at the Beaver! CP: Uh-huh. TS: Thank the good Lord there’s people that are willing to do that for those people. CP: Uh-huh. TS: We, at Beaver, try to make life easy for them. We donate lift tickets to those people. And here again, what I just said, the sick, the lame and the lazy. And I don’t mean that derogatory, but that’s how it’s changed! We don’t just have a fur coat that we pull on and go skiing, we got underwear and we got clothing that would keep you warm at 40 below! CP: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  25   �TS: And doesn’t have to be six inches thick like the old suits we used to wear. And the big awkward shoes and four layers of socks! Now we wear one layer of thin socks and keep warmer than the days when we wore six pair of socks! CP: Yeah? TS: So things have changed. Our equipment has gotten better; the lift has gotten better, the food service has gotten better, the lodging has gotten better. Not just at Beaver Mountain, at ALL resorts. CP: So have you ever tried to actively draw any of the crowd from Salt Lake City? TS: No. CP: Never tried? Never had any desire. TS: Well, okay. We do a little of it. But why should I solicit you if I don’t have a place for you to stay? CP: Right, right. I mean you’ve got your niche, so. TS: Yeah, we’ve got a niche! CP: Right. TS: We think that if we ever get Bear Lake organized – have you been to Bear Lake lately? CP: I have! TS: Have you been there this winter? CP: I haven’t been this winter. Last time I went was – well, actually last time I went was this summer. TS: Okay, there was a few food places open, a few places to go eat weren’t there? CP: Uh-huh. TS: A couple of service stations, weren’t there? CP: Yeah. TS: Do you know what you’d find if you went over there now? CP: What’s that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  26   �TS: You’d find three food services open – one of them’s just Thursday, Friday, Saturday; the other one’s open seven days a week and the other one’s open five days a week. Is there a grocery store? Well, not as big as this office we’re in. [Laughing] See. You got a place to go to a movie? CP: Uh-huh, TS: Do have a place to go bowling? CP: No, none of that. TS: Have you got a bar to go in? What have you got? Nothing. So would you want to take a vacation and go and stay at Bear Lake with nothing to do after seven o’clock at night? Probably not. So why should I solicit you to come to a place that I don’t have a place for you. CP: Right. TS: Now, let’s be honest. I think there’s people out there that we could solicit and tell them honestly what we are that would come and stay at a hotel/motel in Logan, and travel the 30 miles to the resort. Why? Mon-ey! They can stay down there for 40, 50, $60 – whatever it is – they can ski for $40. CP: Um-hmm. TS: That’s a damn cheap ski trip. CP: A good deal. TS: It is! But you have to be willing to relinquish the assets that are at Deer Valley or Park City. CP: Right. TS: You have to say, “Well they’re not of value to me.” I don’t have them, I don’t have any money to pay for them either. CP: So has anyone in your business actively tried to encourage development of Bear Lake at all, or is that kind of outside your – TS: I think they need a large convention center over there; they need a decent grocery store over there. They need some entertainment over there. But what I can understand, that of the people that own homes in Bear Lake, Garden City, all that area – that maybe 5% of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  27   �them use them year-round, and the other 95 are used for a few weeks out of the year when Bear Lake is handy or if they came from the Wasatch Front, come up here and take over the Christmas Holidays. We do get quite a few people from the Wasatch Front over Christmas because they own places over there. But for us to go out and solicit large groups of people to come to Beaver, it might work once, but you’d never get them back. You’d never get them back because we are not that kind of a ski area. We’re that kind of a ski area, but we’re not that kind of a facility ski area (if that makes sense to you). CP: Yeah. TS: People say “Well look at all these people that go to Park City!” I said “My Lord! Look at Park City! It’s a mile long with stores on every side: hotels, motels, bars, eating food, rent skis, buys skis, buy a fur coat, buy a diamond ring, what do you want?!” CP: [Laughing] And they got a airport, you know, not very far away, so. TS: Yeah! See, so that what I think most ski vacationers want. Not all, not all. CP: Convenience. Yeah. TS: Convenience! I was in Ketchikan five years ago. And at Ketchikan these – CP: Alaska? TS: Alaska. Ketchikan, Alaska. Where these ships come in from these people that are on these cruises; cruise ships come in there. There were two cruise ships come in there that would hold roughly 4,800 people a piece. They both pulled up to the dock; long as a football field; four stories high – I don’t know how big. And we’d sit in there waiting for an airplane out of there, we had a day to loiter. And the town there at Ketchikan is about four blocks long, (the whole thing it’s a lot longer than that). Those tours were totally full of those people coming to buy stuff to take home. You think those locals didn’t know it? You could walk there at 10 o’clock and there would’ve been nobody in the store, but at 11 it would have been full of people taking your money and people shopping. And they would blow the whistle and all those people would leave and they’d go back on the boat and it was a ghost town again. So people will spend the money if you’ve got a place for them to spend it. And you don’t have that at Bear Lake. Now, summer pretty good; winter, not so good. CP: Well I just wanted to go back and ask you one more question about an environmental policy that’s come up in recent years, and just was wondering if it affected your business at all. Just the debate over motorized versus non-motorized transportation: snowmobiles – TS: It hasn’t got onto to us because we so far have been able to keep the snowmobilers out of there in the winter: because skiers and snowmobilers collide. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  28   �CP: Um-hmm. TS: If they go up there on the mountain and they dig a deep hole and some skier falls in it, hurts himself, who’s responsible? I don’t know where that guy is that left it with a snowmobile. Those are things that we get concerned about when we groom, that we don’t leave bad places for you to drop a ski or a board in and get hurt. Those are things that we try to avoid. No, we have stayed out of that fight between the cross-country skier and the snowmobiler. No, it hasn’t affected us because we’re a different – no, we don’t permit them to park in our parking lot; we need it for our people. There’s a parking lot down there, go use that and if it’s not big enough, don’t bother me go to the state. That’s their concern, not mine. CP: Right. TS: See, what happened with the environmental movement – when we first started to develop in the ski area in 1977. We had to do a big master plan: that was it. (Fact it was before it.) So what we did, we hired some people to make all the lines and the circles, and write the write-ups. And we had two meetings and we invited all the politicians, we invited all the environmental community, of course the Forest Service, ski groups, anybody else. And we met at the ski area. We had a few hundred people show up and we had about eight tables. And we had a chairman at each table: he talked about power, or he talked about whatever it was – cutting trees, or putting up ski lifts, or parking lots, or whatever. And so all of these environmental groups, they came and they got their input, they got their input to what they thought ought to happen. And those inputs were considered and then we wrote up the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) and those things were put in there weighed against something else. You know what? We never had one complaint from the environmental community because they were invited to have their say. Now if we would’ve done that without including them, they would’ve found reasons to block it or get our master plan. But because they were involved, they had input into it, they were happy with that. So, we’ve done a couple of things right. CP: Right, right. I just wanted to ask another thing about how the ski area has changed over the years. How has it changed in terms of summer use? TS: Okay, years ago – of course when we were in the Sinks, we had nothing. We come into Beaver in ’47, we had nothing. Then about 12-15 years ago we decided to try summer activities. And so we planted three semi loads of grass out around the deck at the lodge so that it looked nice. We cleaned up all the brush and the rocks, we cleaned all that up. I got pictures to show you what it looked like, the devil. And so then we put the RV hookups; put in 15 of those. And slowly we started renting them. So now 15 on the weekends, 16 is not enough. So we put people on what we called the “upper side” and they can run a cord and get power; they don’t have sewer, they don’t have water. And then we have tent sites; six tent sites. Some of them one tent, two tents; some of them 7, 8, 9, 10 tents. We have permanent pitch tents. We have four, ten-man tents that are permanently pitched that you can rent for whatever you want. And you have water there, but no power, no sewer. But we do have toilets, temporary toilets. Then we have the yurt, we rent the yurt out. That’s Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  29   �rented out a lot in the summer. The day lodge, we rent the day lodge out. So we’ve gone from doing nothing, to finding everything we’ve got at the resort where we can put a tent, where we can put an RV spot. Now we can build some more RVs in the upper parking lot, we can do that and we will do that. But we’re looking for a little more demand because you understand in economics if you build and they don’t come, you still get to pay for it. CP: That’s right. TS: But when there’s enough demand and you build and you know they’re going to come, then you’re fine. So maybe our financial philosophy is different than the others: we don’t like to borrow money. We don’t borrow money. Beaver Mountain has not borrowed money since 10, 11 years ago when my wife and I bought my brothers and sisters out, we didn’t have the money so we had to borrow it. Since then we’ve been able to do whatever we’ve done, on our own money. And that’s good because we do not build, we do not spend before we’re sure of our return. That’s the way it works. That’s the way it should work! It’s worked for us. CP: So then, just to kind of sum up everything we’ve talked about – what do you feel is the future of Beaver Mountain? What do you think will happen after, when you pass it on to someone else? TS: Well, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but what I hope happens – two of our kids and their significant others are in the business with us. Our son Travis is around 50-ish; Jeff [son-in-law] is around 57, 58. Travis doesn’t have any boys; Jeff’s got two boys. At the present time they’re not very interested in the business. Will they become interested? Will the girls take it over and run it, do the man’s work? I don’t know, I don’t know. I would like to see it stay in the family; I’m sure my folks would, you know? What happens with development down below? Are they going to find an opportunity there to sell it and walk away from it and make a lot of money? Or will they cherish it like we have and say, “No, I don’t need the money, I don’t need the money”? I think the ski area will grow more. I think there will be a couple more lifts put in; there’s going to be some lodge additions, those types of things. We know that there’s going to be more food service put in up towards the other side of the ski patrol building. There’s going to be some buildings put in over at Marge’s Triple for food service and for restrooms; that’s going to happen. So I see the ski area staying together, unless, as we talked earlier, that the state finds a buyer for the whole thing and the only way he’ll buy it is if the ski area’s included and they find a way to boot us out of there. So that’s my hope. Now are you the one that asked about a mission statement? CP: No. TS: Oh, I got another meeting at 12:15 or something with somebody else on similar stuff. They want to talk about bicycles and summer bicycle rides and where’s your mission Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  30   �statement? Where are you headed? Well, I think mission statements are for a little bigger company than we are. I think if you sat Jeff in that corner and Travis and the rest of them in these other corners, you went around and asked them, “What do you think is going to happen to Beaver?” I think almost without exception you would get the same answer, because we’re a small company and we have meetings and get-togethers all the time and discuss where we’re going, so. Anyway, we’ll see what he wants to know. CP: Right. So you think it will stay – TS: A “Ma and Pa”? CP: Yeah a “Ma and Pa” that caters to a local crowd? TS: I think so. CP: Think so. TS: They say Logan is going to double in the next 20 years. Maybe, maybe. We do have room up there to build more day lodges and that if we need. We hope to build one now, we got problems with the ski shop, we got problems with the ski school, we got problems in food service. We need more room. We need more locker space, if you want to rent a locker. Our lockers are totally booked, and they have been. People they keep them and if they decide they’re not going to stay, they turn it over to somebody else. CP: Do you think that the warmer climate is going to affect the way that your business is run? TS: I read an article here awhile ago that scared me to death because they predicted that by 2038 it would not snow – and that’s the last year of our permit with the state. How expensive would that be? Yeah, I’m concerned over the climate. But the thing that bothers me is Congress or whoever, the Environmental Protection Agency, is not willing to let business do things that we hold down the greenhouse gases. They’re still running their coal-fired generating plants, when they could put nuclear in, that puts out one-tenth the emission. CP: Right. TS: And probably safer, if the truth was known. They said we would have to have two Chernobyls a week to be any more than dangerous than the coal-fired plants. Do you think we’re going to have two of them a week? I don’t think so. Three mile island? I don’t think so. Now, they’re talking about the down-winders. Yeah, that was probably a mistake. No, I don’t know. I think sometimes people do these things and say these things to try and get some notoriety. I wish they had a little more technical data to tell us about before they opened their yip. You know? Everybody wants to be up here; everybody wants to be the knowledgeable guy or gal and I think sometimes the stuff they throw at us is total bullcrap. But it is a concern because we do not have the snow now that we had when I was a kid. We do not have that, I know that. I know that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  31   �CP: What kinds of measurements do you remember? TS: Well, that’s been so long ago. I can remember years of 120 inches of collected snow. We can get 350-400 inches of snowfall, but it settles down;120-140. But now, if we get 80 or 90 it’s pretty good. CP: Right. TS: It’s pretty darn good. I can’t remember what last year’s was, I’d have to – let me write that down in the book that I don’t have here. CP: It was pretty good last year. TS: Oh the skiing was good, yeah! It was slow coming. We didn’t open until the 22nd of December! CP: Right. TS: I remember one year, ’77 or ’79 we opened the 23rd of February and closed the 15th of March. That wasn’t too prosperous; we didn’t make too much money that year. CP: Um-hmm, right. So you save your money during the good years for when you have lean years? TS: Well some people save for a sunshiny day and we save for a rainy day. CP: Yeah? TS: But you know, it’s been good to us. And so I’ve been wise with our money, we’ve tried not to overbuy; we’ve tried not to over-speculate. Yeah, we’ve made mistakes; will we make more? Oh yeah, I’m sure we will. If we do anything we will, if we do anything we’ll make mistakes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the – wish I could look back on this in 10 years and remember what we talked about. But I think the ski area will continue to grow, as long as we have winter. As long as we market it right and treat our people right – and that’s part of marketing – and provide a fair service for a fair price. That’s what it’s all about. If you didn’t like hotdogs you got a Joe’s, you wouldn’t go you’d go somewhere else won’t you? CP: That’s right. TS: Yeah, that’s right. And our transportation any more, yeah it’s kind of expensive, but it’s not very far to Powder Mountain or Snowbasin, or Wolf Mountain, or you get a little further down into Salt Lake. But it doesn’t seem like it bothers people to drive that far anymore. CP: Yeah, well is there anything that you’d like to add? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  32   �TS: No, I’ve probably said more than I got knowledge to say. But if you have any questions – why, the phone’s here. Don’t be afraid to call. CP: Sure. TS: Don’t be afraid to call. And I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of stuff, but you know, you can’t live a lifetime in two hours. CP: Right, right. Well, it was good to talk to you. TS: It was good to talk to you and good luck to you with what – [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Ted  Seeholzer     Page  33   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ted Seeholzer interview, 19 November 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in Logan Canyon and talks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He also discusses his interactions and relationship with the Forest Service and School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seeholzer, Ted, 1932- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Pumphrey, Clinton R., 1984- Subject The topic of the resource Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Interviews Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Family Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Career in the Ski Industry Beaver Mountain Ski Resort (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History Beaver Mountain (Utah) Fishing--Utah--Logan River Hunting--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho) Shupe, Don Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Ski resorts--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Seeholzer, Harold Seeholzer, Luella Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Snow and ice control--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon--Citizen participation Skis and skiing--Utah--Beaver Mountain Snowboarding--Utah--Beaver Mountain Utah. School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) United States. Forest Service Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Winter festivals--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes Skis and skiing--Utah Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Beaver Mountain (Utah) Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah) Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho) Mount Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 5 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd5TedSeeholzer Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 19 November 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-11-19 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/5272e8f3fb152a9d52e6501adfbfbd30.mp3 b358b8eb86aa017cc0492b9827feeece https://highway89.org/files/original/cd49883a39193e69d7a86a876837bf0f.pdf ad96ab86186c719d10c5e18a2c1dd1a6 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Bill Petersen Place of Interview: Mr. Peterson’s home Date of Interview: 14 April 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Rebecca Smith Rebecca Smith Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams (2/23/09; July 2011), Bill Peterson (3/09) Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Peterson talks about growing up in Hyrum, Utah; his father’s ranching and farming operations; working with his families’ sheep ranching operation in Cache National Forest and in Box Elder County. He talks about getting out of the sheep business due to a mysterious event that killed over 300 sheep in the mid 1950s that also caused many of the sheep to become sterile. After this, the family got out of the sheep ranching business. He also talks his education at Utah State University and University of Utah and going into the real estate business in Bear Lake. He also talks about local land conservation issues. Reference: BP = Bill Petersen RS = Rebecca Smith (Interviewer; USU graduate student) MP=Mary Peterson NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. At the end of the transcript is information on “Willard Petersen and Sheep Creek Cove” supplied by Bill Petersen. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION RS: OK Bill, I would like to start by asking what your full name is. BP: My name is Willard Reed Petersen. RS: When and where were you born? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  1   �BP: I was born in Logan, 11/22/1926 RS: How long have you lived here? Have you lived here this whole time? BP: I lived in Hyrum ‘til about 20 years ago. RS: Ok, so you were born in Logan. BP: I lived in Hyrum ‘til I was . . . no it was longer than that I guess. I lived in Hyrum for say forty years and balanced a life here, in Bear Lake. 30 years here. RS: What was your earliest memory of Logan Canyon? BP: My earliest memory of Logan Canyon was driving up in the canyon with my father when I was probably eight to ten years old, delivering supplies to the sheep, which were raised in Logan Canyon. We had four permits on the Cache National Forrest. One in Dip Hollow, one in Boulder Mountain and one in Mount Logan, and one Pete’s Hollow. RS: In Pete’s Hollow? Ok. What was your father’s name? BP: Willard Petersen. They called me Bill and him Willard. RS: And so you grew up, you say, in Hyrum? And you spent some of that time going up into the canyon with your father? BP: Oh a lot. Yeah we would go up Logan Canyon; a lot in Blacksmith Fork too. We had a private range up Blacksmith Fork Canyon and then we’d drive, we’d range the sheep from Blacksmith Fork Canyon over, drive them over into Logan Canyon for high summer mountain grazing. RS: I’m not really familiar with a lot of the canyons, so I’m trying to figure out where your father’s land might have been. You don’t happen to have a map of that area do you? BP: Oh yeah I’ve got them. RS: Ok let me pause this and maybe we could look at a map. Do you have them really accessible? Or we could do it afterwards. BP: Let’s do it afterwards. RS: Ok BP: But anyway, the private range that we would go up to in the spring and early summer was south of the Hardware Ranch. And we would be there in the springtime and out in the desert or out on the Spring Range in Box Elder County. And we would truck the sheep, or trail them. Earlier we would trail them and later we would truck them, from Box Elder Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  2   �County into Cache County and up onto the forest range. And the sheep from Rattlesnake Mountain, Box Elder County would either go to private range or directly to the forest depending on the time of the year or what’s going on. And our private range was 7 miles south of the Hardware Ranch. This is where it started and we extended through another 7 to 10 miles along the Aunt Valley road. And then in the first of July when the forest permits became active and we could go to the forest, we would trail the sheep from our private range there over to the Hardware Ranch, stopped at the Hardware, Curtis Creek, Rock Creek and then Left Hand Fork; and, then into our different permits. RS: What was that like growing up helping your father? BP: What was it like what? RS: What was it like to help your father with the sheep when you were growing up? BP: It was just like a summer or year round vacation being with the sheep. I loved being in the mountains or in the desert. RS: Were there different aspects that you liked more than others? BP: Oh, I liked actually being out herding the sheep in the summer time, but we didn’t get much opportunity because there was farm work to do. We had a farm that helped support feed the sheep. And we would raise hay and alfalfa and grains for the sheep and the horses and later on cattle that we had. RS: Was that in Hyrum? BP: That was in Hyrum, our base in the summer. Our base in the fall and early spring before we got up here was in Hansel Valley out in Box Elder County. We had land with sheds and a cabin, we had kind of a head quarters there. Then in the winter time we went clear out to Nevada to Ely: between Ely and Wendover. Trailed our sheep out to there, we had a permit out there and then we had one in Utah, close to Snowville, towards the Utah Nevada Idaho border, out in that area. RS: What were your families’ land use traditions? Were there any annual or periodic events that you did? BP: I still don’t get the question… [Trail the sheep from summer to winter range; trail back in the spring.] RS: Are there things that you or your family did, or continue to do today on an annual basis, or like special events. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  3   �BP: Yeah, we go up to the forest. Forest permits would open up on the first of July. So that was an event that we would keep in mind and would plan our activities so that we go to the forest on the first of July. We came off; our permits would expire about the 15th of September, if I remember right. And we would have to be off the forest, well, the 15th or the 30th, I can’t remember exactly, but we’d be off of the forest at that time. And go back over to our private land for, oh ‘til October, just for deer season. We’d try to be out of Blacksmith Fork Canyon down in the Cache Valley, away from the deer hunting. Because the deer hunt was quite dangerous up there for the sheep, the hunters would shoot them. So we’d try to get out of the canyon before the deer season started. RS: Ok, so let me just make sure I understand. Your family had a farm in Hyrum. And you had land in the canyon, where you would allow your sheep to graze. And then during the time of the year when you could get permits for the forest, then you would trail your sheep to different forests and let them graze there. BP: [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] After the summer season we trail the sheep out of the canyon. We would rent fields (farm ground) down through Wellsville, Mendon, over to Fielding, Garland, Blue Creek and finally end up on our private range on Rattlesnake Mountain. After staying on our private ground a short time we would continue on the BLM trail to our private range on Pilot Mountain. We would stay there for a short time, and then continue to our winter range. This would take about 45 days. RS: Were there other members of your family that took part in this trailing the sheep? BP: My father; and I have two brothers and they would occasionally help. RS: And what are their names? BP: Howard Clark Petersen, he lives in Nibley Utah. He has a dairy farm there. And then there’s Stanford B. Petersen and he lives in Salt Lake. RS: Were they older or younger? BP: Younger. RS: Can you tell me what your hobbies or recreational pursuits are? BP: Oh I love to fish. I used to golf. I always hunted: many outdoor type activities. I like to watch the Jazz now. RS: (hehehehe) How are they doing? BP: Good. Just got back; just went down and watched the game night before last, down in Salt Lake. Just got back yesterday, spent the night down there, it was fun; a good chance to get away. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  4   �RS: Sounds exciting. Can you tell me about your profession? I know you’re retired now, but what your profession… BP: After we had our problem with the sheep and I got out of the sheep business, I did have an education. I graduated from Utah State University. And I, along with range classes and stuff I took, political science, and I had a good background in law. [I] went to law school for two years down at University of Utah. And that gave me a background to where I could go into the real estate business pretty easy, and I went into the real estate business and became a real estate partner at a firm here in Logan. And eventually a real estate broker. RS: How did you decide to go to school at Utah State University? BP: Well, my mother always believed in education. And living in Hyrum, that’s the place to go. RS: How did you get interested, when you enrolled, how did you get interested in range classes? BP: Well, that being, having my father having farms and ranches. I decided that’s the place to spend part of my time anyways. So I did. I didn’t major in animal husbandry or range management, but I took enough I could have minored in range management. Had a number of classes from Dr. Wayne Cook; [he] was very good. And he had a graduate assistant and they did range work out on our—some of our BLM ground permits in Box Elder County. And I got to know them quite well. And I enjoyed their company and enjoyed taking their classes. RS: And you were also studying Political Science at that time? BP: I majored in political science and minored in economics and business and stuff. I had all kinds of minors. RS: All kinds of interests. So then how did you get interested in real estate? BP: [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] With the problems we were having at the sheep ranch, I could see the writing on the wall, that our sheep ranch would not be viable very long. I could see that it was not going to be economically possible to keep it going. I started looking around for other employment options. We started selling parcels of land to cover expenses. One of the gentlemen who handled the sale of our property was real estate broker Mel Squires. The land he sold for us extended from North of Richmond on the foothills extending to the Idaho border and up to the forest. I admired the way he did that. Selling caught my interest and I thought “I think maybe I could do something like that.” I had a friend who was a real estate broker and I asked him if I could join his firm, he said yes and that is how I got started in real estate. Some years later I became a partner in the firm. We later dissolved our partnership. I became a broker and took over Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  5   �an office we had in Bear Lake. It worked out good for both of us. It was an enjoyable profession. RS: Ok, so when you were talking about your profession and you went into real estate, you said that’s because there was a problem with the sheep, so could you talk about that? BP: Well in about, let’s see 1947 or ‘48, I’m not sure about the exact date. But I was in law school at the time and we were trailing the sheep out to the desert as usual. We were out just north of Rabbit Springs which is right close to the Nevada boarder. And the sheep were coming through a pass and my father was going to meet us out there. I had been out to the head quarters at Hansel Valley, spent the night there, and one of the ranch hands and I were gonna meet dad. He went from Salt Lake around the south end of the Great Salt Lake up back. And we went around the north side of the lake. From our Hansel Valley, anyway we were going to meet out at this Rabbit Springs and count the sheep. And we got there before day light and we met and had breakfast. The sun started coming out. We looked out and we saw a bunch of dead sheep. And we had never seen anything like it before. We couldn’t tell what it was. But we looked at them, tried to figure it out. There was nothing we could do, they were dead. It was at least 300 of them dead. Their heads had kind of swollen up and lost some hair around their head. And they looked terrible. And we could not figure out what it was. We took 3 or 4 carcasses into Utah State University, who had a poison control center and the best one in the western United States. And I asked them to tell us what has happened. And they sent back a report saying it was inconclusive. They couldn’t tell us. After looking and watching and thinking about the situation 20 years too late, we kind of figured out that it was radiation from one of the atomic bombs that they were testing in the Nevada test site. And it killed about close to 300 give or take some. The rest of the sheep were sterile but we didn’t know it. And they went on their way, went out and we wintered them out there of course. Some died during the winter and we had a higher than normal, quite a bit higher than normal death rate that year. But then the spring came; we had a new lambing shed, best of facilities, and we couldn’t get 50% lamb crop. And usually you get a hundred and twenty percent in a shed environment. Well, without a lamb crop and with expenses still coming in, there is no way you can still continue the sheep business. [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] Finally we had to sell our sheep and get out of the business. We had no idea what was causing the problem. We had never heard of radiation at the time and the government never told us about a problem. The fellow we sold the sheep to went broke, no lambs. He never figured out the problem either. After all was said and done and much reading the only conclusion I could come up with was the problem was caused by radiation. The sheep herders who were with the sheep both died of cancer. My father and I both had cancer. We are pretty sure that it was a radiation caused incident but there is [no] proof after this much time. RS: And you were in law school at that time? So how old do you think you were? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  6   �BP: About 23. MP: I think Bill was more like in ‘54, because we got married in ‘48 and we lived up on the hill and Pat was born in 50. I think it was more like in 1954 than in‘48. BP: Well I graduated… MP: You graduated from Utah State in 1950. Yeah, you’re right because ‘55 out of, in 1955 I would have graduated from law school, but before I would have graduated from law school. So it would have to be 1953-4. RS: Ok. And so how did that impact your family then, your father? BP: Nothing you can do. RS: Did he keep using the land for his livelihood? BP: Well, we had quite a debt load so we had to unload most of our properties. You have to pay your bills, and the only way you can do it is to sell the land. One time he was the 2nd largest tax payer in Box Elder County. Petersen Land & Livestock Inc. was the 2nd largest and we were one of the larger ones in Cache County. We had about 12,000 acres of private property in Cache County. And we had about 50,000 acres out in Box Elder County. RS: So going back to talking about your profession, what were some of the major influences that helped you choose your profession? BP: Which one? Ranching or real estate? RS: Let’s start with ranching. BP: Well, I love to be out in the mountains, and I love to… I didn’t like the farming part of it as much as the ranching part and we had both. Plus then my brothers took over the farms, and I took over the sheep. And one of my brothers still has the dairy farm, in Nibley that was part of the operation. And my other brother, he didn’t like to dry farm, we had dry farms and he didn’t like that as well, so he sold those and he went into real estate: in apartments and motels in Salt Lake City. And he’s still doing that, he’s still a real estate broker. In fact when I retired I transferred my license over to his company and I’m a licensed real-estate agent now with his company. And we just had to go our merry ways without the ranching part of the operation. RS: You said your brother was working, did you say dry farms or dairy farms? BP: Both. One was a dairy farmer, one went into dairy farming. We had farms in out of Hyrum, well Hyrum was the main area. We had farms in Mount Sterling and down in Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  7   �Hyrum’s north field, which is quite close to Nibley. Actually in Nibley right were the dairy is now, where his dairy is now. And he still has that; still runs the dairy. He runs three hundred milk cows out there now. RS: And what’s a dry farm? BP: The Nibley Farm was irrigated. You have irrigation water out of the Blacksmith Fork River that irrigated the Nibley area. The dry farms were out in the Mount Sterling area. And they were like the name implies: dry. They didn’t have any irrigation rights. So they call those dry farms. And we had dry farms out in Box Elder County; had a number of them out there. And that’s where my 2nd brother was but he didn’t like the dry farms too well so we sold those off. RS: In terms of the ranching, are there people who were mentors to you in this or who influenced you in terms of your hobbies/interests? BP: My father of course, yeah. RS: And how did he do that? BP: Well, he took me with him. He took me with him when he’d go up to the canyon to the different sheep herds to deliver supplies, when he’d go up to count the sheep, when he would do any of the work up there, I would always ride in the truck with him. And I got to enjoy the mountains and that’s how I got started. RS: So how long was your family running sheep? BP: My dad started with his father when he was, he was actually out in the mountains, up on Mount Logan, herding sheep when he was 12 years old, ALONE. RS: Your father was. BP: And he’s been with the sheep on and off ever since. And he died at 97. But he, after we lost all those sheep we got out of the sheep business, it kind of, he was getting old then anyway. He was 65 or something. MP: No he was 60 when we got married. He was in his 80’s. BP: Ok, he was probably 75-80 when we… RS: when he stopped with the sheep. BP: Yeah. RS: And what was his father’s name? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  8   �BP: Lorenzo. RS: Lorenzo Petersen. Ok for the next question, are you a member of a religious community? If so how does your religious affiliation affect your land use beliefs? BP: I’m not a member of a religious community. [I told you we are “Mormons” but we really are Christians.] RS: Ok. Do you think that your religious or spiritual, if you don’t have religious beliefs, do you think that there’s been some influence whether it’s spiritual or not? BP: Some influence on what? RS: Some influence on your beliefs about land use? BP: No. I believe land use is governed by laws of nature. I believe land use is a science to be studied and learned. RS: Ok, in what areas of Logan Canyon, I know you talked about some of the areas, but maybe you could talk about other areas where you were also active. BP: Well, along with the ranching, I’ve always liked to fish. And I’ve always fished Logan Canyon and Blacksmith Fork Canyon, both. I’ve fished on the Curtis Creek, Rock Creek and Left Hand Fork. They were all really good little streams when I started out fishing, along with Logan Canyon. At the present time, I still like to fish Logan Canyon. I used to fish the river all the time, but not now I’ve switched to were I can sit down and fish from a chair in the dam. RS: What kind of fish do you get out of there? What kind of fish do you catch? BP: Oh we catch trout, either German brown or rainbows. Used to catch a lot of red cutthroats but they’re kind of a thing of the past. RS: I know you said that you like picnic there as well. Were there other places in the canyon where you would go for that sort of activity? BP: Yeah, we still picnic up there. We take our family and go up at least once, twice, three times a year. Take our great grandkids and go up and have a picnic and fish and every one of the kids has caught a fish in Logan River, grandkids have caught, great grandkids have caught a fish in Logan Canyon. And we usually go up to the 2nd Dam and the picnic areas where it’s real nice and we can fish and picnic and keep the kids occupied there. [In our younger days we used to go up to Tony’s Grove when we were younger.] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  9   �Left Hand Fork is really good up Blacksmith Fork too. We used to go up there, some real nice little place up there, it was quite secluded and a little stream going by there; and real nice fishing up there. RS: How have those places changed over the years? The places that you and your family—when you were a kid—visited. Are those the same places you visit now or has that changed? BP: The facilities are much better now. Earlier there wasn’t areas for camping and picnic tables, there wasn’t fire pits that they have now. They are a lot better. The major change I can see though when I started with dad in the sheep business, they had started permits. And before it was just open. And they could run sheep wherever they wanted, when my father started. And that meant that with a lot of sheep on the easy access areas and it was over grazed. But when they started the permit use, they cut the sheep numbers down and the forest has recovered a lot. You can see the improvements from when I started, shortly after they got the permits until we quit. I can see a big difference. Ranchers were required to take care of their permitted area. RS: How has it improved? BP: Your vegetation is allowed to grow up and to germinate. And grasses are coming back, much more prevalent than they were before. Your forbs are in better shape. Just your whole growth pattern in the whole forest is better. There was better distribution of livestock RS: What’s your favorite place in the canyon? BP: Oh I’ve spent time in a lot of them. But probably one of my favorite places is a White Bedground up on the Mount Logan permit. Right close to there is an area about 15 acres, 10-15 acres, of great big tall beautiful yellow flowers! And I don’t know the name of the flower, should have checked it out, but they are absolutely beautiful. And they are very good forage for sheep and elk and deer. But when we first went there, there wasn’t too many elk. The elk population has increased since. And they may have killed those 15 acres out. I’d like to go up there this summer just to check it out and see. But that was quite nearer this spring which is just South of the White Bedground. And there was a big meadow there just of flowers, and that was one of the prettiest sights I have ever seen. Those flowers were 6 foot tall. RS: 6 foot tall yellow flowers? BP: Yeah, gold, kind of beautiful. In fact we have some same type out on the side of our house. And they are beautiful in the summer. RS: How do you think that you or your activities have contributed to land use changes and policies in Logan Canyon? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  10   �BP: Well, the land use policies are already determined by the foresters. And by following the rules and regulations that they lay down I think it’s improved the general welfare of the canyon and are befitting for all of the people, for the recreation users, which I am one, and for the grazers, for which I was one. I think it’s improved it for everything. I think they are doing a good job with multiple use. RS: How have land use changes impacted you? BP: [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] I think that without land use changes the quality of water we have in Logan City and the surrounding area would be much lower, that we would be more prone to flooding in our canyons and waterways. RS: What was the erosion like before? BP: [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] The stream banks, waterholes and easily accessible ground was overgrazed. The Forest Service did not have the money to fence, make roads and fix the springs to get good distribution of the livestock. Most of this work was done by the ranchers. The fences separated the sheep from cattle. This made it possible to have accountability for permitee’s. We fixed the springs on our allotments. We would dig out the spring, lay in perforated pipe, cover it with gravel and hook it to galvanized pipe. This would lead to ponds or troughs for the livestock and wild life to drink from. Because of increased water sources, trailing to water was not necessary erosion of trails and riverbanks was reduced. Vegetation was not trampled down. RS: Did you have just sheep up there? BP: Yeah. That’s another good thing. Before there was cattle and sheep all mixed up. Now they have separated the cattle and sheep into different allotments. So everybody’s responsible for their own individual area. And that makes for better management for both cattle and sheep. And it separates them from the stream users which is good. RS: So what is your overall impression of how land use policies are determined in Logan Canyon in the Wasatch, Cache, Uinta National Forests? BP: Well, they are determined by professionals. Professional foresters whose job it is to make sure that the forest is used to its best potential. And I think they are doing a pretty good job of doing it. RS: What has been your relationship with forest service personal? BP: It’s been very positive all the way through. RS: And other land managers in the canyon have you had relationships with other ones? BP: [This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] The Soil Conservation Service has always been very helpful. I had a closer relationship with their representatives than with Forest Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  11   �Service of BLM employees. They worked closely with the ranchers explaining and showing us the results of different grazing programs. RS: How has land use policy influenced change over the past 50 years? BP: I think their realizing that recreation is a larger part of what the land use should be aimed at and are developing the parks and developing the picnic areas which is a good thing. And separating the cattle and the sheep from the riparian areas, I think are real good. It should be done and its being done in a pleasing manner that is acceptable to the stream users, picnickers, and to the livestock owners. RS: What changes have you seen in the land use policies in the canyon in the last 50 years? BP: Like I said the main thing I can see is permits and the separating of the sheep and the cattle and getting the permits and keep them off the waterways. I think all that is going to improve the canyon. RS: What other aspects have influenced land use policies in Logan Canyon? BP: Well, there’s always wilderness areas. Wilderness in Logan Canyon I don’t think is a viable option. Looks to me like the best use is a multiple use and when you create wilderness areas, if they expand the wilderness areas like some people want them to do, it could be a disaster for recreationists and the livestock industry too. I think the wilderness area is limiting the recreation use, to where a person my age can’t get up and use the ground. It’s much better to have it opened up to motorized vehicles so I can get up and see Mt. Naomi. If I could go up on a 4-wheeler I think it would be really great. And I think a lot of other people would go there if there was an improved trail for A.T.V.s so you could go up there and take a look. I think it would be a wonderful thing. I think wilderness is ok in its place but I don’t think any wilderness expansion should be taking place and maybe some areas declared wilderness should be eliminated. RS: Ok so do you have any personal involvement in land use or management in Cache Valley? BP: Not at the present time, no. RS: Have you in the past had an involvement in making decisions about land use or management? BP: Well I was President of the Cache Wool Growers for years… which consisted of the wool growers that ran sheep in the Cache National Forest. I was president of the Logan Board of Real Estate for two years. When I was in the real estate business, I wanted to develop a Planned Unite Development. I helped write a PUD ordinance for Cache County and put in the first PUD development, Sheep Creek Cove. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  12   �RS: Have you had personal involvement in land use or management in other areas not in Cache Valley? BP: No. RS: Are you a member of any associations that are involved with decision making? BP: No. RS: Have you ever tried to influence government actions, possibly thru an organization or writing letters, going to meetings? BP: No. Well, I did when I was president of the Cache Wool Growers, and I was director of the State Wool Growers for a number of years. Most positions I would write letters and try to influence public opinion. RS: And what was that like? BP: Well, we just wanted to make sure all of the rights of permit holders were recognized and it wasn’t a real active campaign but it was in case a wool bill or a tariff bill or something came up we’d be interested in writing letters to a congressmen. RS: Do you have any special stories to tell about that? Any gains that you made while doing that? BP: I don’t. I, we didn’t make too many gains. RS: Who were some of your most influential people in instructing you in your field, in the ranching? BP: Wayne Cook and Halie Cox. Oh and Ben Haywood. Benjamin Haywood. He was good. He was with the Soil Conservation Service. RS: Ok let’s just start with Wayne Cook. Is that C.O.O.K.? BP: Yeah. He was the professor of Range Management at USU. Halie Cox was a graduate student. And he was a ranger, he was a graduate student when we were running sheep and did experiment work on our range in the deserts. And he was quite influential in my thinking about range management. RS: And then you said Ben Haywood. BP: Ben Haywood was a range specialist for the Soil Conservation Service. He worked mainly with private ground. He had real success in showing ranchers how to improve grazing practices. And how to get better returns from practices. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  13   �RS: So he worked toward… BP: He worked for the Soil Conservation Service. RS: Can you tell me again why Halie Cox was so influential. BP: He was doing experimental work out there and I just got to know him and he would explain things to me and help me out. RS: What kind of experiments would he do? BP: Grazing experiments on range use and plants and [?] the different grazing levels and lower grazing, things like that. RS: Ok and Wayne Cook. Why was he so influential? BP: He was my professor that taught me range management courses that I took. RS: Who influenced you the most to continue in the ranching business? BP: Probably Ben Haywood. RS: What was the most critical policy that was enacted while you were working in Logan Canyon? BP: I think the most critical thing was keeping the cattle and the sheep off of the riparian areas of the streams. That’s when that started. And improving the watering holes so that it was better distribution of livestock. RS: And was that the land management policy that impacted your operation, your land use the most? BP: Mmm Hmm. RS: Do you have any other particular stories you would like to share? BP: Not that I can think of at this time. RS: Are there any books or writings that influenced either your land use beliefs or your management practices? BP: Not that I can think of right now. RS: What world events have had the most impact on your professional life? What world events have impacted your professional life? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  14   �BP: Probably that sheep kill was the most important. If you have any other questions don’t hesitate to call. RS: I will. I don’t want to be here too long today and I will take a look at what we have and see if I did a good job or not since it was my first one. I appreciate you talking to me though! BP: Well no problem at all! And anytime you need some more information if I can help don’t hesitate to call. RS: Ok thank you very much! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Bill Petersen Interview     Page  15   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/340">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/340</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-02-10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Willard (Bill) Reed Petersen interview, 14 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Mr. Peterson talks about growing up in Hyrum, Utah, his father's ranching and farming operations, working with his families’ sheep ranching operation in Cache National Forest and in Box Elder County. He talks about getting out of the sheep business due to a mysterious event that killed over 300 sheep in the mid 1950s that also caused many of the sheep to become sterile. After this, the family got out of the sheep ranching business. Additionally, Peterson talks about his education at Utah State University and University of Utah and going into the real estate business in Bear Lake Valley, as well as, local land conservation issues. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Petersen, Willard Reed, 1926- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Rebecca (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Petersen, Willard Reed, 1926- --Family Logan Canyon (Utah) Sheep--Utah--History Sheep industry--Utah Sheep ranchers--Utah Sheep ranchers--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Sheep--Feeding and feeds--Utah--Hyrum Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Land use--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho) Grazing districts--Utah--Logan Canyon Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Canyons--Utah--Cache County--Recreational use Ranching--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho) Farming--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho) Fishing--Utah--Cache County Cache Wool Growers Association Petersen Land & Livestock, Inc. Range Management--Utah Allotment of land--Utah Natural resources--Management Rangelands--Utah--Cache County Rangelands--Utah--Box Elder County Sheepherding--Utah Petersen, Willard Petersen, Howard Clark Petersen, Stanford B. Sheep--Mortality--Utah--Box Elder County Real estate business--Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho) Land use--Law and legislation--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae Rangelands--Multiple use--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho) BearLake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah) Hardware Ranch (Utah) Box Elder County (Utah) Rattlesnake Mountain (Utah) Curtis Creek (Utah), Rock Creek (Cache County, Utah) Left Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 4 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd4BillPetersen Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 14 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-14 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/190a0ff46b01cc7effd6c1be026bd577.jpg 07905686a2a98809ea2fd08202518a2b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2422 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3675 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example 24-Bit Color File Size Size of the file in bytes. 959972 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Utah Industrial Promotion Board road sign in Davis County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Davis County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/9/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 358.150 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Davis County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 14. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959002014_91-31_UtahIndustrialPromotion.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/42209629009c7b5d581776d2ba569cec.jpg f3a0a9ae5c9e1521ed0fd3c305f86522 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2698 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3519 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 734087 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource State Line Hotel road sign in Davis County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Davis County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/13/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 358.550 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Davis County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 15. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959002015_91-36_StateLineHotel.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/34eb94eeab42ab99dc5912bea8a85065.jpg 99cda583ef146c0fb05a9a80a64024f5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2608 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3519 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 791355 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lake Motors road sign in Davis County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Davis County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/13/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 358.62 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Davis County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 15. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959002015_91-38_LakeMotors.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/05bcb812196d7edfcba0da65bf27d72d.jpg d0163588fef62f8f46d750bf3dbf51aa Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2506 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3345 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 745304 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource JB's Big Boy Restaurant road sign in Davis County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Davis County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/20/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 358.70 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Davis County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 15. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959002015_91-39_JBsRestaurant.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/49ba80f2485fe7d6b40d9269b30d54a6.jpg 0d4a9c27060b91bfa04c6c32c7ff2463 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2782 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3459 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 809870 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bryce Motel Restaurant road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/27/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 55.650 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 14. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003014_158_BryceMotel.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/9dd35940c91c50ee84092d72edfb48ec.jpg afcc0e222396845dd433d33691bdb58d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2728 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3531 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 682628 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ruby's Inn road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/27/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 55.150 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 14. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003014_159_RubysInn.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/01123b5b54ad0a4e67f41a3819e98b1b.jpg 87bdbcc5c3a66bf127d121e1b86a8949 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2776 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3573 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 644840 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thunderbird Restaurant in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/28/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 56.540 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 14. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003014_178_ThunderbirdRestaurant.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/179855b7cb1006ad99ad3d1413069601.jpg 370e622155db4dc52ae03bbd74f08a5c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2776 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3406 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 722890 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mount Carmel Junction Tourist Center road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/28/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 81.07 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 14. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003014_402_MtCarmelTouristCenter.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/255f1e1ffda0a185cf42b2e20df0499a.jpg 20068c6ab82d5299358fe46ca82c860c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2728 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3561 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 719758 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hi-Way 89 Lodge road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/28/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 63.93 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 15. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003015_196_HiWay89Lodge.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/5e9e0f0e50847f8dc713c76467ac4451.jpg bcc1ec8712cae46b0e5f05ef7097a587 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2758 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3579 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 711513 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 89 Lodge road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 66.04 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 16. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003016_222_89Lodge.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/38aab3c0d59f8a3e123c2ef89eb0bb8c.jpg 2aee00a5faca698594410d7019683127 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2788 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3561 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 657736 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fremont Hotel road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 68.60(Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 16. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003016_262_FremontHotel.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/5218a14936c68d1c01a05ecb903f92f8.jpg 9a63abf839caf191503ee22fb69057d8 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2674 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3519 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 591236 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All Man All Army road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/22/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 70.45 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 17. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003017_309_AllArmy.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/27f72a5fbeba00580390935941217f69.jpg e48a9f0b5a3fec38ebfe2a4cbe7cbd0d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2679 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3507 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 675756 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying M Cafe road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/28/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 75.32 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 17. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003017_367_FlyingMCafe.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/291891be4e990c5e29ab171f791f1412.jpg e1438fd4e512716ff87103b3d7434283 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2752 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3573 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 1219267 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Big Rock Candy Mountain road sign in Garfield County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Garfield County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Garfield County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/7/1968 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 81.15(Utah) US 89 (Utah) Garfield County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 18. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959003018_3-0416_BigRockCandyMtn.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/9d3286eaf7967fb63aa7fc481edaa361.jpg 16b91ead412b7c37499a8d2d4728b144 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2782 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3555 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 962002 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Moqui Caverns road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/15/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 4.25 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 1. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005001_9_MoquiCaverns.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/28ff23dd085be65b842fe1ff96b278b2.jpg fdb5b48d3bfb4c2683e80e22cf11b7f1 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2836 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3579 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 911725 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thunderbird Restaurant road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 21.10 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 1. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005001_141_ThunderbirdRestaurant.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/c44adaf562e9b074940da0ebd7249d5c.jpg 42195984efab32352b1cf49c179c1aeb Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2776 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3579 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 1099695 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Orderville road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 24.55 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 1. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005001_174_Orderville.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/0dc631b8cf786c91fc2ccd76477d934a.jpg 7f0db6bab5483aa786f61f470c22a094 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2710 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3561 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 848495 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ruby's Cafe road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 2.52 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 2. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005002_24_RubysCafe.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/aa137a0110d4f1a11e18737990419653.jpg 8c249dcbfc906d97596d97dfd5f1ff97 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2794 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3543 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 681353 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brandon Motel road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/21/1965 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 4.26 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 2. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005002_33_BrandonMotel.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation https://highway89.org/files/original/48010efc14de874f86b35ef8488be879.jpg 83a2f1213a2a39783bd009f8a7f259a2 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 4 inches x 5 inches Height Height of digital item in pixels 2740 Width Width of digital item in pixels 3531 Scanning resolution Resolution in DPI 800 Colorspace RGB or Grayscale, for example Grayscale File Size Size of the file in bytes. 683845 Bytes Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 3/13/2014 Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Zion Lodge road sign in Kane County Description An account of the resource Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Utah State Department of Highways Subject The topic of the resource US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs Advertising--Utah--US 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photographs Black and white photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/6/1966 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Milepost 39.27 (Utah) US 89 (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1965-1975 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 2. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 00959005002_124_ZionLodge.jpg Advertising and Marketing Road Signs Transportation