16 50 1396 https://highway89.org/files/original/14543bf93259e4823ef80bb976b0030c.mp3 3fdb21748d70982420ec86c054943f9d https://highway89.org/files/original/2f15c9695e5c5e3b877f54072b0607e1.pdf 341343064e93ff303bacc9460407d016 PDF Text Text LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: William Daly Hurst Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center in SLC, Utah Date of Interview: 11 February 2009 Interviewer: Barbara Middleton & Thad Box Recordist: Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams, 4/23/2009; Bill Hurst; Randy Williams, 7/12/11 Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences on the Forest Service and in Logan Canyon: Cache National Forest. Reference:     BH = Bill Hurst BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) TB = Thad Box (Interviewer; former Dean USU College of Natural Resources and Emeritus Professor: Range Management) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: This is Barbara Middleton and I am here interviewing Bill Hurst with Thad Box and we are both here to talk on the second part of the interview with Bill Hurst. It is Wednesday February 11th 2009; it is about 11 o’clock in the morning and we are here in Salt Lake City, Utah. As you remember from the first tape we started off with Bill’s biographical sketch and now we are going to start with Bill’s relationship with Logan Canyon and where that started with the Cache National Forest. So Bill… Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  1   �BH: I first became acquainted with the Cache National Forest when I went to Logan to enter Utah Agricultural College in 1934. Our professor, mainly Ray Becraft, took us on a number of field trips into Logan Canyon to study plants and the effects of grazing on the vegetation and talk to us about forestry in general. At that time there were only four professors in the School of Forestry. One of them was T.G. Taylor who was head of the School of Forestry. The School didn’t have a Dean at the time. Raymond Becraft taught range and some range related plant identification classes although we did take botany in the Botany Department from Bassett McGuire. The other professors there at the time were Paul M. Dunn who later became Dean when the School of Forestry was founded. A man named McGlochlin and J. Whitney Floyd, who later became Dean, made up the primary faculty in 1934-35. Slim Hansen, a graduate student they brought back to help teach this rather large class of foresters that started in 1934. The Forestry School at Utah State experienced a large increase in students in the fall of 1934, as did many other Forestry Schools around the Country. The Civilian Conservation Camps had a lot to do with this I believe, since many of the Camps were located within the National Forests and young men became acquainted with the forests and the Forest Service. At any rate, that was the faculty in the 1934-35 Forestry School. So that was my first relationship with Logan Canyon and the Old Juniper, the monarch of the forest. [Omits information about moose encounter from tape.] BH: [Later in this paper I will tell you about my first encounter with a moose which took place in Logan Canyon.] TB: You mentioned being up Logan Canyon quite a bit. Did they have a normal Summer Camp or did they just take you up in classes? How did they get you up there to understand the land? BH: [Utah State had no Summer Camp at the time. Their first Summer School was held in August of 1936 in Logan Canyon. During my freshman year,] Dr. Becraft took us on a number of one day field trips. One day we climbed to the top of Mount Logan stopping in each vegetative zone where our teacher explained to us how elevation influences the vegetation in each zone. We went on a number of field trips with him. He loved the field trips and was a really excellent teacher. I attended the first forestry summer camp at Tony Grove in Logan Canyon in the fall of 1936. The Camp lasted about six weeks as I remember. It was held in the old CCC Camp. I think there were about 35-36 of us. Thad, when you were Dean, I gave you my pictures of that camp so they must be at the University some place. TB: Yes. I think they are there somewhere. We’ll dig them out. BH: At that time, Whit Floyd was in charge of the camp. He was a pretty seasoned guy in the University and handled a lot of different camps. Art Smith was a member of the faculty and helped with the Summer Camp, as did Dr. D.I. Rasmussen, head of the Wildlife Department and E.L. Stoddart head of the Range Management Department. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  2   �BM: Bill, can I ask you a question? You mentioned the camp was in the fall of 1936? And I’m familiar with camp being in the summer. Could you explain a little bit of how that worked into your school year? BH: The Fall Quarter would start sometime after the middle of September. Summer Camp would start sometime in August. The year I attended Summer Camp we moved directly from Camp into the class rooms at the University. As far as I know a similar schedule prevailed throughout the history of the Camp. BM: Most of you were working summer jobs and then coming off of those summer jobs right into forestry camp? BH: Yes. I quit herding sheep in mid August and went directly to Summer Camp TB: When you were talking about the faculty you mentioned Art Smith. I’ve had other students tell me that Art broke colts while he was teaching up there, was that true? BH: I wouldn’t be surprised. His uncle, who lived in Idaho; had one of the most highly prized stallions in the State of Idaho. Art lived with his uncle I understand, so I’m sure he was riding his horses. TB: I had several students tell that while he was teaching range classes he’d be breaking the colts at the same time. BH: Yes, that could be true. I’ve never seen the horses with Art, but he was at ease around horses. I’ve never seen him riding any bucking broncos however. BM: So after these six weeks in Summer Camp, then pretty much this crew of camp students would start classes in the fall. BH: Right. And as I said, 1936 was the beginning of that program. I enjoyed summer camp. We had a man and his wife who did the cooking. Their name was Cooley. They did the cooking for many years at the Summer Camp. And I mean they put on a feed at every meal. One of the indelible memories of the camp was a truck wreck we had on the Beaver Creek road east of Summer Camp. The Forestry School had a stake bed a one and a half ton truck. A four and a half foot rack was in place on the truck bed. There were no seats on the truck beds however. When traveling, the occupants would stand up holding onto the racks. One afternoon about half of the camp students and two Professors, Whitney Floyd and Professor Barnes, loaded in the truck to drive out about 10 miles to a study area. The two teachers were in the cab with the driver. All of the students were in the truck bed holding on to the racks. As we paralleled Beaver Creek, a stream laden with willows, a couple in a red sedan came toward us from the opposite direction and failed to yield space on the narrow road. The right hand wheels of our truck went over the edge and the truck fell topside down into Beaver Creek. Only the willows prevented this from Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  3   �being a tragic accident. They cushioned the landing in the creek bed. However, there were many cut faces and arms and some with body cuts. As soon as transportation was available we were all taken to a Logan Budge Hospital [200 North and 300 East] and examined. All but two of us, Virgil Peterson and Clyde Lowe, were returned to Tony Grove Camp for the night. The other two remained in the Hospital for a night or two. TB: Did he destroy the truck? BH: I don’t remember; I don’t think it destroyed it because it landed in the willows also. But the willows were thick enough that it was upside down propped up. TB: The reason I ask, when I started teaching Summer Camp in 1959, we had a 1936 Chevrolet truck, a green one, and two old army 6X6’s. That’s what we took the students out in. I just wondered if that was the same truck or a replacement. BH: Well it could be. It could be the same truck. But that was our thrill for the day. In those pictures that I gave you Thad, Virgil’s still had a bandage on his head. TB: Hum. BM: So in a group like that, were you mixing forestry, wildlife, range; was there a wide assortment of students in that camp? BH: In that day, especially during the first two year of Collage, we didn’t consider ourselves different. We were first and foremost students in the School of Forestry. . Most if not all of us had taken classes together during the first two years of Collage. However, I think in 1936 they had Dr. Stoddart on board; he was head of the Range Department. And they had Dr. Rasmussen on board and he was head of the Wildlife Department. And Paul Dunn, I don’t think they called him a Dean yet, but he was head of the School of Forestry Range and Wildlife, in effect the Dean. At Summer Camp, we were exposed to all of these disciplines. The students were broken down into two or more units. Each unit would then go to the field or class room and study one particular field. The crews would then rotate until all had been exposed to the entire field of study. BM: What time did they get you up in the morning and when did the day end? BH As I remember, we would get up about 6:00 AM and be ready for field work or study by 8:00 AM. I think dinner was around 5:30 or 6:00PM. Lunch would be at noon. We would take lunches to the field and this happened often. BM: And were there evening lectures then? BH: Yes, we had some evening programs but I don’t remember much about them. After a day in the field hiking and climbing hills we were usually tired in the evening. BM: Is it Doc’s Hill? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  4   �BH: Yes, yes Doc. I’m trying to think of his name. TB/BM: Daniel? BH: Oh Doc Daniel yes. He hadn’t arrived at Utah State in 1936. BM: So that was Benchmark Hill. TB: Yes, Benchmark Hill. BH: Yes. TB: Bill, do you have recollections of what the country was like in 1936 up Logan Canyon? As far as you mentioned range conditions that Stoddart was teaching you, as compared to what it is now or other times in your career? BH: Well, no I really don’t. I really don’t. However, during that same period of time I was herding sheep on the Dixie National Forest. I herded sheep the summer before I went to college and the first summer after I started college. I couldn’t get a job so I herded sheep One day I killed a mutton and checked the stomach to see what it had been eating. I found a leaf that looked like a holly leaf. I can’t think of the name of that plant now. It was a heavy leaf with little prickly around the edges BM: Like an Oregon grape? BH: Yes. Well, something like an Oregon grape. BM: Utah Holly maybe. BH: Yes, it looked like an Oregon grape or holly. However, on the chart then being used by range survey crews the plant had no palatability whatever. A few days after I had killed a mutton and found an Oregon Grape leaf in its stomach, here comes the range survey crew of guys I knew. They came in to have dinner with me. We got to talking about what’s palatable and what isn’t. I think it was Oliver said “Well, they won’t eat this and they won’t eat that,” and so forth. He pointed to the little holly plant and said “They won’t eat that.” I said “I’ll bet you they will.” Then I showed him the leaf taken from the sheep’s stomach. We had a good laugh over this and agreed the sheep made a mistake when it ate the Oregon grape leaf. So we were thinking about what’s palatable and what isn’t in those days. My sheep herding experience served me well after I got into the Forest Service. BM: How so? BH: Well, I learned what livestock could do if not properly taken care of and what the herder had to do to protect both the sheep and the land they were using. I learned that it wasn’t easy to get even utilization of the country. And I learned that herding sheep isn’t a lazy man’s job. With only one herder with the sheep it’s a 24 hour a day responsibility. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  5   �I gathered plants when time permitted and identified and pressed them. I carried a plant book with me most every day and had a plant press in my camp. Through the sheep herding experience I gained a better appreciation of the problems of a stockman. I think that helped me more than anything else. Their [stockman] life isn’t an easy one. Now to go back to Thad’s question of comparing what land looked like in 1935 to what it is today. To attempt to answer this question I’m going back to my sheep herding days in Southern Utah where I did make an eyeball sixty year comparison at the request of the Supervisor of the Dixie National Forest, Hugh Thompson. To quote from my Memoirs which were completed at the end of the year 2000 [A life Recalled: Memoirs of William Daly Hurst by Williams Hurst.] On July 17, (1995) VerMon Barney (my Brother in Law) and I trailered horses to Castle Valley to spend two days riding with Supervisor Hugh Thompson, Ranger Ron Wilson and Range Staff Officer Dale Harris on the Houston Mountain where I herded sheep the summers of 1935 and 1936. Our ride took us to the old Jenson Sawmill on Houston Mountain, a mill that operated in the very early part of the century and perhaps before. After sixty years, I believe there is more grass in the dandelion cover and more fir in the aspen stands. The country looks beautiful, as it did 60 years ago. The ground cover is now probably better. A herd of sheep were grazing in the area during our visit. We located my name on an aspen tree dated 8/1/36. On July 18, 1995 we were joined by Ranger Wilson and Range Conservationist Randy Houston. Our day’s ride took us over Dry Valley and onto Blue Springs Mountain. The complexion of Blue Springs Mountain has changed because of logging roads. I feel certain however there is more fir in the aspen stands. The young firs are less than 60 years old so most of them have come in since I worked there. The country is still beautiful and in good ecological condition. After my two day ride I felt good about the management the area has received. I rode Diamond, my former saddle horse, on both days of the ride. My personal opinion of the area is this: When the area was first grazed with domestic livestock, probably in the 1880s it was used by both sheep and cattle and probably heavily grazed. This resulted in depletion of the original grass stand which was replaced by dandelion. In 1936 dandelion occupied almost 100 percent of the ground. Once over by sheep and the ground was bare. Subsequent lighter use has permitted the grass to slowly return. Very early fires, of which there is now little evidence, could have removed the original forest and replaced it with aspen. That fir is now replacing the aspen there is little doubt. Regardless of what happened in Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  6   �the past, in my eyes, the area is healthy today and still supporting sheep and wildlife plus a charming landscape. In closing this subject on sheep herding days I would like to quote from my Memoirs a paragraph about my faithful companions, the mule Jody and the dog Pal. Jody could be either ridden or packed. I used him mainly to pack, since Luke was much better to ride. Luke was a very good saddle horse. Jody had the patience of Job. One day I had my camp on him and was in the process of moving to a new location. For a reason I no longer remember, I was interrupted in the moving process and had to leave Jody tied to a tree for a couple of hours. On returning, Jody was in approximately the same place under the tree but the pack was under his belly. In fact, the top of the pack was resting on the ground. This didn’t seem to bother Jody at all. He just patiently awaited my return. Many times over the years, I’ve wished some of my mules and horses to, had a disposition more like Jody. The dog Pal was also incredible. He continually amazed me. Besides being wonderful company and providing me with a sense of security both night and day, he would on command, go around a herd of sheep as far as the eye could see. Best of all I felt confident that he had gotten them all. TB: At the danger of messing up Barbara’s tape, I’m going to ask you a question because now most of our students come from cities, have none of this experience. Do you have any ideas of what the modern day natural resources or Forestry College, how can they teach these things to their students? BH: I don’t know. Very few in my day had the experience I had. But it’s an important experience. I believe that the three years I spent with the Hatch Brother’s Ranch paid big dividends in my career with the Forest Service. TB: You mentioned that most, or many of the students at your time, didn’t have that background with livestock, did Summer Camp help fill them in? Or where did they learn? I know a lot of them went on to be distinguished foresters, they must have learned something somewhere. BH: The reason I feel that my experience with ranch and farm activities paid off is because of the positions the Forest Service selected me to fill. From Assistant Ranger through Regional Forester the jobs were heavily range and wildlife management orientated as was my position in the Washington Office of the Forest Service. I’m sure most people in the organization didn’t know of my earlier experiences but some did. And most important of all, my earlier experiences made me feel more comfortable in the jobs I was selected to fill. Many farm and ranch raised forestry students, such as Ed Cliff and Basil Crane, did very well in the Forest Service as did others in land management agencies as well. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  7   �TB: Well, unfortunately none of us can answer that. We’re still arguing that in education now how to teach the practical things to our students. BH: Yes. BM: Well, and also the transference from what happens at field camp into the classroom for that whole academic year. And when you think about that—what did you take from field camp that you bridged into the classroom? BH: Well, we learned how to survey land for example. We learned what fish were eating by catching a fish and examining stomach contents. We learned how to mark timber of different species and how to determine forage utilization by cattle and sheep. We learned how to use portable radios and how to fight forest fires among many other things TB: You mentioned you had on snowshoes when that moose chased you up a tree. Was that an assignment or just you? BH: Oh no. [Tape 1 of 2: B] BM: Bill Hurst [continuing from tape one side A]. BH: Dr. George Kelker’s Wildlife Management class was on a one day field trip in Logan Canyon during the winter. We were between Tony Grove Ranger Station and Tony Grove Lake. The snow was deep and we were all wearing either skis or snowshoes; I was wearing snowshoes. When we reached the area Dr Kelker had chosen for study we broke up into smaller groups each assigned to a different area. My partner was Virgil Peterson. He was wearing skis. In the vicinity of a lake (the name of which I don’t remember), we crossed some huge tracks. TB: Pipeline Lake? BH: Perhaps, but I really don’t remember, But we crossed large tracks. Dr. Kelker said “That looks like a moose to me.” Neither of us had ever seen a moose so we continued on our way. Virgil and I walked into an opening in the aspen and there he stood. [Laughing] That’s when we took the snowshoes and skis off and climbed a tree. In a minute or two the moose left and we went on our way. We saw that moose again the same day on the plowed out Logan Canyon highway near Tony Grove. A week or two earlier Art Smith, Ben Haywood and J. Lowe Sevy, all Wildlife Management students from Utah State, had seen, what we think was the same moose, swimming in Bear Lake, from east to west. . BM: Well, now you mentioned boys in that moose story. Where were the girls? BH: There weren’t any girls. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  8   �BM: No girls in Summer Camp? BH: No, there were no girls in forestry school at that time. The enrollment in the Forestry School was large but I remember no girls. TB: The first women went to Summer Camp in the summer of 1970, but that’s another story. BM: Well, let’s look at some other relationships with Logan Canyon as far as school. You were talking about some field trips and Summer Camp as far as the time period that you stayed up there and you explored around. When you graduated from Utah State, did you leave northern Utah for awhile? BH: Yes. I left Logan for the summer of 1937 and worked until October on the Grantsville Division of the Wasatch National Forest near Grantsville, Utah. After my senior year, 1937-38 at Utah State I returned to this same job in May 1938 and remained connected with the Wasatch National Forest until June 1941. In the summertime, I would be working on the Grantsville Unit. During the winter I worked in various timber jobs on the Kamas and Evanston Ranger Districts of the Wasatch National Forest. During the pre World War II years the Forest Service operated on a very lean budget. A couple of times I was placed on furlough during the winter months. One winter I worked a couple of months at a sawmill before being put back to work with the Forest Service. BM: Where was this? BH: It was down there. BM: In the Ashley? BH No, it was in southern Utah where I was raised. My cousin was a Barber and had major interest in a Ford Motor Company. He also had a small sawmill which wasn’t in operation. Railroad ties were in demand so a group of us put the sawmill in operation and sawed railroad ties. I went with the sawmill for a couple of months acquiring an up graded automobile and a little cash. BM: Well, and different in that you also have those certain time of year where you’re always going to be laid off. BH: No, this just applied to those who didn’t have a permanent appointment with the Forest Service and at the time I didn’t BM: So how did you get to the Logan Ranger District? BH: I worked as an Assistant Ranger and District Ranger after I left school. In the latter job we lived about four years in Manila, Utah. I then served in the Army for two years spending one year in Japan at the end of WWII. After being released from the military the Forest Service assigned me to the Cache National Forest in Logan, Utah as Staff Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  9   �Officer to the Forest Supervisor. At that time the Forest Service was in the process of purchasing Wellsville Mountain and adding it to the National Forest System. That’s the big mountain out west of Logan. BM: And what was going on in Wellsville Mountain that they wanted to incorporate it into the National Forest? BH: Wellsville Mountain is a big beautiful mountain that was outside the National Forest and had been heavily used by livestock, particularly sheep. Accelerated erosion was common in many of the drainages. In the mid 1930s I believe, Congress placed the entire mountain within the National Forest System and authorized the Forest Service to purchase the land from the private land owners. The governor of Utah at the time, [Henry Hooper] Blood appointed a committee to look into the cause of the floods. One of the people he appointed was George D. Clyde, Dean of the School of Engineering at Utah State Agricultural College, who later became Governor of Utah. Another was Reed Bailey, a Geologist and later became Director of the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station. Another was A.R. Croft, a soil scientist I think, from Utah State Agricultural College. He joined the Forest Service and stayed with them until retirement. I think there were two more on the Committee whose names I’ve forgotten. These five men were all very talented people. They studied the mud rock flood problem and wrote several bulletins on the subject. Convincing evidence led the Committee to the conclusion that denuding the high elevations of a watershed and exposing it to torrential rains was the root cause of the problem. Furthermore, overuse by domestic livestock caused the loss of the protective vegetation. When these watersheds were perched above high population centers they posed a real threat to the population and property below. During my stint on the Cache National Forest I carried this program forward under the direction of the Forest Supervisor. A substantial part of my work in the Watershed field was in land appraisal and land acquisition. During my three and one half years on the Cache National Forest I also became well acquainted with Logan Canyon through assignments I had there particularly in range and recreation management. BM: Can I ask before you move on to range, could you talk a little bit about what it was like working on this acquisition and this Wellsville initiative? BH: Yes. BM: Well, you know what’s interesting to me is you are saying that, and you’ve used the word several times, that the public demanded that the federal government come in and do something. BH: They did. They pushed us hard on it. And it’s interesting to note that really the National Forest (now I’m stepping back now in time oh 30 years or more), many of the National Forests in the United States were created not for the timber but for the water they Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  10   �produced. There was damage being done to streams and springs and it wasn’t so much mud rock floods as it was the consequence of excessive animal concentration around and in the water people depended on to sustain their lives. TB: I want to ask a little bit more about this Wellsville Mountain. It’s my understanding that, and it may have been before your time, in the early days the local people actually raised funds to buy land to give to the Forest Service and that the county commission was actually behind the acquisition. Is that true? BH: It is true and not too far back either. I have seen petitions in the Cache National Forest files wherein people petitioned the Forest Service to purchase watershed lands above their communities to protect their water supplies. This was also done at an early date in the history of the Forest Service for watershed land on the Manti National Forest in Central Utah. At a later date petitions from people in Ogden, Utah and other communities and from people around the Wellsville Mountain resulted in efforts that have placed thousands of acres under federal control. The Weber County Watershed Protective Association and the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association were both the results of local people’s action to secure protection of their watersheds. A.G. Nord, former Supervisor of the Cache National Forest was instrumental in achieving federal as well as local support for watershed programs in the intermountain area. To pursue Thad’s question of public involvement in the watershed land acquisition program and the role the public played in this effort, I think it would be worthwhile for Barbara or one of her staff to review the files of the two private organizations deeply involved. One was the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association which once was head-quartered in Brigham City, Utah and the other, the Weber County Watershed Protective Association which had its offices in Ogden, Utah. If pursued, I suggest starting in the Forest Supervisors Office of the combine CacheUinta-Wasatch National Forest in Provo, Utah. Perhaps they can tell you where the files are located. A discussion of land acquisition and watershed management on the Cache National Forest as well as other locations wouldn’t be complete without recognizing the positive role Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson played in this effort. The Secretary was a Republican, a party opposed to the expansion of federal ownership. The Secretary on the other hand supported public ownership on land that was serving a public need. Under his leadership the political aspects of land acquisition were substantially diminished. He also supported the Forest Service in many other ways all of which I thought furthered the cause of conservation. BM: So with you working on the Wellsville issue and you’re, I’m assuming, meeting with the public to understand what’s going on. What other kinds of issues are going on the Cache Forest at the time? BH: We did meet often with the Watershed Associations mentioned above. We also kept in close touch with other watershed activities In addition to the land exchange work on Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  11   �Wellsville Mountain and in the Ogden River watershed, there was an active land exchange effort underway with the Deseret Land and Livestock Company on the southeast side of the Cache National Forest. Much of the land owned by this Company was situated in a checker board fashion over a vast area. The intermingling land was in large part National Forest land. Both parties agreed that it would be in the best interest of all concerned if the scattered land could be consolidated. The land would fare better also. Accomplishing the consolidation would take time both on the part of the rancher and the Forest Service. I’m not sure that it has yet been completed. The Deseret Land and Livestock Company was formally owned by the Mormon Church. I believe it was during the period of which we speak. It is now in private ownership. The Church also owned a Ranch in Skull Valley on the west side of the Stansbury Mountain. While in Church ownership it once was used as a sanctuary for a Leprosy colony. BM: And the objective of getting rid of the checkerboard ownership was what? BH: Was to create conditions more favorable to management both from the standpoint of the private land owner and the Forest Service. It is difficult to manage 640 acres of range land when it is surrounded by land of another ownership. So there were benefits to be gained by both parties that was getting out of Logan Canyon but that was the work I had to do. BM: So you met with the Deseret folks at the time and you looked at different value and trading parcels? BH: Most of my work on this case was independently done. Our District Ranger, Clark Anderson, was active in identifying land that would be most beneficial to acquire as well as land that could be disposed of with least impact on National Forest interests. My two primary contacts were with the Ranch Manager, Dan Freed and their Attorney who had his Office in Salt Lake City, Laurence McKay. I didn’t meet with them too often. I think Thad knew Dan Freed. Thad, Dan and I were active members of the Society for Range Management. The Deseret Land and Livestock Company eventually went private. Except for occasionally meeting with their attorney and Dan Freed, I didn’t spend a lot of time with the Deseret Land and Livestock Company; although all of the acquisition cases would clear my desk before going to the Forest Supervisor for approval. TB: Just when you were making exchanges like that, how much did current condition enter into your thinking? And how much potential? How did you reconcile those two? Say one block of land was, had been really abused and the other was in pretty good shape. And they both had similar potential, how did you [evaluate it]? BH: I don’t think we took current condition into consideration. I didn’t in land I personally appraised. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  12   �TB: That was my impression. BH: Yes. The senses of values were quite interesting. A fellow well along in years, who lived in one of those little communities on the west side of Wellsville Mountain, came to the Supervisor’s office and told us he had a section (640 acres) of land on Wellsville Mountain which he wanted the Forest Service to have. We told him we would like to have it, that we would appraise the property and get back to him. I did the appraisal on this property and it came out to about $10.00 per acre. This was in the late 1940s. After my Supervisor’s approval I went back to the man’s home and gave him the results of our appraisal. He insisted that $10.00 per acre was too much. We finally settled for $l.00 per acre. He really wanted his land to become a part of the National Forests. [Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: This is tape two with Bill Hurst and side one. Ok, we are continuing with tape two and we are talking with William Hurst and we have Thad Box with us. And I posed the question based upon the Wellsville acquisition in terms of the nature of public perception and this idea that the public approaches the Forest Service to want to have their lands either sold to or donated to the Forest Service. And I wonder if you could give us a little more of a context for that in terms of the public views of the Forest Service and that relationship. BH: There are several areas in the Intermountain Region that I’m acquainted with where land was placed in public ownership [chimes] with the support of the local people; in fact in some cases, it was the request of the local people. The Wellsville Mountain is a case in point. However, long before that, back in the early history of the Forest Service, some of the Cache National Forest was placed in public ownership at the request of local people. They weren’t thinking about using it for timber or for recreation or grazing. They were thinking about it from the standpoint of maintaining healthy watersheds. And I think that the watershed issue was the driving force behind the creation of not a majority, but a substantial part of the National Forest system. Even though the public in general supported the movement, both early on and in later years, to expand the National Forests or manage those in existence to enhance water supplies, strong leadership was required. In the case of the Wellsville Mountain this leadership came through the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association with Robert Stewart of Brigham City at its helm supported by a capable Board of Directors from Cache and Box Elder Counties. In Weber County the watershed movement was directed by a citizens group under the name Weber County Watershed Protective Association with Julian Heppler at its head. Both groups had authority to buy and sell land within their area of responsibility and they often did with the Forest Service being the purchaser when money was available. This arrangement made it possible to take advantage of land sale opportunities which might otherwise be lost. During this period of time, the 1940s, the annual appropriation to Cache, Weber and Box Elder Counties was, as I remember, only $120,000. Despite this modest amount the Corporations seemed to find ways through donation to keep an energetic land acquisition program going. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  13   �BM: But the debt that those two corporations then [had] that you are talking about, the debt incurred, could that have gone on until the forest had enough money. BH: Yes, it’s maybe still going on. Yes, they carried over, but it was the Associations that made this possible. The transactions didn’t get into government funds at all. The Corporations would buy the land and then donate or sell it to the Forest Service BM: But the primary concern of these watershed corporations was the protection of the cities from the mud fl, it could be stated that way, or the primary objective of the corporations was to get this land into government ownership, so they could manage it. TB: I think one of the reasons you asked “why did this happen?” There was in a number of communities that had people there that [were] old enough to have seen what it was and how it had been deteriorated and how it was stripped off. And it was really amazing how denuded these lands were. You can look at some of the old pictures there and you can’t find a sprig of grass or anything. And so there were a number of citizens in almost every community along the mountains that became concerned. Bill said that the mountain had come sliding down on them. But I don’t think it was totally the fear, it was that they could just remember it, that the land had been better than that. And so they wanted somebody to take care of it, and they knew that each little individual land owner couldn’t. The Forest Service was a mechanism that could do it. BH: They wanted the Forest Service to manage the land. Now there was opposition to this from certain factions of the public. For instance, some in the livestock industry didn’t like the general idea of public ownership of range land. However, in some cases it was the livestock people who joined with the movement to place critical watershed lands under public jurisdiction TB: Another reason that there was, I think, considerable public support, was that most of the land wasn’t fenced in individual plots, it was open. BH: Yes, it was open. TB: It was open. And so it was essentially a commons that anybody that had livestock could turn them out on that area. So even if you were a land owner and had a 40 acre plot or something up there, you had no way of really using it. BH: Right, no way protecting it. That’s a good point. BM: Thanks for the clarification. BH: Those two Watershed Protective Associations mentioned earlier, may yet be in existence. They did a wonderful job when they were active. Their support went far beyond the communities they served. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  14   �TB: I’m glad you brought this up Barbara because this is a good model that we ought to be looking at in public/private cooperation. Where the private citizens decide they want something done, and then form a cooperation to contact a government agency and then get it done. BH: Yes they did. In my opinion, it would have been difficult if not impossible for the government to acquire the critical watershed land in the Weber River drainage and the Wellsville Mountain without the two Watershed Associations. Their reach was wide and it extended into some deep pockets BM: It was demonstrating effort too from the public. When you think of a huge federal entity like the Forest Service and how it’s growing at that time. For local communities to feel like they have some kind of public input, you know, this is way pre NEPA. So the kinds of input that they could have, and working on that partnership, as a way to either move land through into ownership or move money or especially, importantly, the protective management of that landscape. I mean that must have been a tremendous feeling to have that kind of connection with Washington. TB: What I would like Bill to comment: in those days before the Forest Service wasn’t just something in Washington (we were fighting Washington) they knew Bill Hurst, who was down on Main Street in Logan Utah. They knew that the Forest Service personnel stayed in one place, a good amount of time, they got to know the people and the people know them. They were part of the community. So the local people, when they started forming these corporations, weren’t necessarily working with the big bureaucracy in Washington, they were working with people that they knew. BH: Yes, the people in the two Watershed Associations were well acquainted with Forest Service people and had a good understanding of the Forest Service’s mission. The Associations were holding public meeting semi-annually in communities like Brigham City, Ogden and Logan to keep people informed of their activities and to get feed-back from the public. Of equal importance, the Associations wanted to know what the people were thinking. These meetings were usually well attended too. BM: You know one of the things that I read in your memoir, and I wish you would expound on it a little bit when you talk about this relationship with the public, you mentioned actually going out and riding and spending days out on the forest on horseback, with other staff, but also with the public, some of the land users. I think some of them were sheep herders and there may have been cattle people too. But you talked about that relationship, how important that was, and that was something that was, I think you said established with the nature of the way activities needed to be done in your District Office. Could you talk a little bit more about that and with the Forest Service in Cache [National Forest]? BH: A long time before I started, the Forest Service had on the Forest level, Livestock and Timber Associations whom they would meet with annually or semi-annually to discuss problems or situations of mutual concern. Later, multiple use associations were created Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  15   �on many National Forests. Their purpose, of course, was to facilitate the transfer of information between the Agency and the public and visa-versa. Such organizations are not uncommon today. I think they’re probably more active now than they were back in the period we are talking about. The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960 has probably broadened the scope of discussion. In that regard I’d like to refer to Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson. He was writing a letter to members of a Cattle Association whose grazing permit had been reduced. His reply was very interesting. He explained the mission of the Forest Service and then he went on to say something like this “the National Forests are not timberman’s lands, they are not the recreationalist lands, they are not the water user’s lands, they are not the cattleman’s lands they are public lands belonging to all the people of the United States and must be managed with this fact in mind. The Secretary had it right. TB: Bill, you were Washington staff along about that time. When the Secretary writes a letter today he has dozens of speech writers, drafters and so on. That letter for instance, how did the Forest Service input get into the Secretaries’ letter then? Did you write the letter? BH: No I worked on it. TB: I suspected that. [Laughing] BH: I worked on it but others did also. The statement on “who the land belonged to” came from the Secretary. He didn’t pussy-foot around when stating his opinion. While I worked on a number of letters which he signed the Secretary usually discussed them in the formative stage with the Chief or Deputy Chief who was Ed Cliff. The Secretary was very fond of both men. I did accompany Mr. Benson when he met with some livestock interests in the field and took him on a five day fishing and sightseeing trip into the High Uinta Primitive Area. In my opinion he was a great man and an excellent horseman. As a fisherman he wasn’t so hot. So I put him on a lake where he couldn’t miss. In later years my Grandson would say, “Grandpa taught the Prophet to fish.” In the Mormon Church the Church President is our Prophet. BM: Well, a question I have for you is: do you remember a favorite place in Logan Canyon? BH: Logan Canyon is all special to me. It’s a beautiful canyon. The stream is just unprecedented. I do remember a couple of incidents about Logan Canyon though, that always impressed me. One of them had to do with the stream itself. The Bureau of Public Roads wanted to upgrade a portion of the road through the canyon. That was, I think the time you [Thad Box] were at Utah State and I was in the Ogden Office of the Forest Service. The Bureau of Public Roads hadn’t at that time come around to recognize the value of streams and what might damage them. They wanted to build a road where it was the least expensive and the best alignment from the standpoint of automobile traffic. On the other hand, the Forest Service and the University people, led by Dr. L. A. Stoddart wanted the stream to have first priority. I should also mention Dr. D. I. Rasmussen. He and the entire Forestry School faculty were deeply involved. They wanted the road to go Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  16   �where it would have the least impact on the stream, but still make an acceptable road through the canyon. This developed into a first class battle between the Bureau of Public Roads being on one side and the Forestry School faculty and the Forest Service on the other. Eventually the latter prevailed. The decision was a popular one with the public as well. TB: The publication that came out of that “Road Construction and Resource Use” is the only paper that I know of that every faculty member in the College of Natural Sources signed up on. I mean in the whole history of it. And it started as you say, with L.A. Stoddard and Jess Lowe went up the Canyon to go fishing one day and found a bulldozer parked in the river where they were going to fish. And they came back down and got a hold of Dean Turner and said “We got to do something about this.” And so they got the whole faculty together and we had meetings, and I was just a young guy on the faculty there. But we had a number of meetings and came out with that publication. And like you say, there was a battle there. And it’s still going on. BM: What’s the time period you are talking about? TB: This is about 1960 as I recall that that publication came out. BH: It was somewhere between 1958 and 1962. But I’ll tell you, the Forest Service was sure glad to win this one. It posted a sign that all road construction interests paid attention to. [Tape 2 of 2: B] BM: We are on tape two, side two with Bill Hurst and Thad Box. BH: In reading this you must remember this road issue stretched over two or more years. It didn’t happen while I was on the Cache National Forest. I was in the Regional Office at the time as was Dr Rasmussen. TB: I think there’s a point here that it is important to get, whether we are talking about the Wellsville or Logan Canyon, it’s important if there’s a problem that people see and agree on. And the Forest Service and the University have no problem coming together to study Logan Canyon and the river; if they say that there’s a common problem. And you don’t worry about budgets, you don’t worry about personnel, you just go out and do the job. BH: Yes. That’s right. BM: And the perception of the public at that time too, of these two agents working together. Can you tell a little bit about that? TB: Well, the perception of the public, I was just a young faculty member then and don’t remember. But the public mostly wanted that road constructed. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  17   �BH: Oh, yes. The public definitely wanted the new road. However, I don’t believe they realized the impact it would have on Logan River if constructed to the original design. TB: I think if you’d put it to a vote, the Forest Service and the University would have lost because people wanted to drive faster over to Bear Lake. It was something that was going against public opinion at the time. BH: I agree; there is no question about it. And that’s the case on so many issues that come up when public land is involved. There’s a certain group that’s really pushing and their voice seems overwhelming until you expose the entire picture. Then, if your position is logical, it changes and sometimes radically. I think most everyone now appreciates more than ever the value of Logan River, values that would have been lost had the road been built just to accommodate speedy automobiles. Well, one other point of interest that took place in Logan Canyon more recently was the Range Wars of the 1950s. The Forest Service reduced the amount of grazing by 20 percent on the Logan Canyon Cattle Allotment. At the same time there were reductions being made on other National Forests in the Region. While many people applauded the actions of the Forest Service many did not. The Forest Services actions were appealed in a number of cases in both Utah and Idaho, some of them going to the Secretary of Agriculture for a final decision. The primary issue was the question of what land on the National Forests could be grazed in a way that was compatible with other resources on or adjacent to the land being grazed. The issue boiled down to a determination on each grazing unit (allotment) of the land that could be grazed on a sustained program without damaging other important values. The term “suitable” was selected to describe such land. Other regions in the Forest Service were using the word “useable.” This word was unsatisfactory in our opinion because most land can be used by livestock if other values are ignored. Our definition of “suitable range land” was, “Land which can be grazed on a sustained basis without damage to the area itself or to adjacent areas.” With this definition being applied the issue of suitability became the crux of the grazing problem. It was decided this issue was worthy of a research effort. We welcomed this as did Utah State University and many in the livestock industry. Wayne Cook from the School of Natural Resources at USU was especially supportive as was Weldon Shepherd of the Research Branch of the Forest Service. Logan Canyon was chosen as the location for the research project. Ralph Crowell, Supervisor of the Cache National Forest and Wayne Thorne, Director of Research for USU would provide direction for the research. Wayne Cook from the School of Natural Resources, USU and Weldon Shepherd, Director of Range Research for the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station would design the program and give direction to its application. The Forest Supervisor, Ralph Crowell, appointed Hallie Cox to represent him on his study committee. The Committee and the range management scientists who helped them, put in about two years on the study of rangeland suitability for livestock grazing. When the studies were completed the issue of suitability seemed to evaporate. It is my opinion that people on both sides of the issue were Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  18   �convinced that the cost of capturing the forage in an acceptable way from these difficult to reach or sensitive areas was far greater than the benefits gained. BM: So did suitability then become more of a policy? BH: Yes, in Region 4 [Forest Service ‘regions’] they still use the term “suitability.” But in Region 3 where I later worked, I could never get them to use the term. TB: You couldn’t? BH: No, I couldn’t. The Chief’s Office used the term “useable” rather than “suitable” and it had become so ingrained in their thinking and in their instruction that it is difficult to change. I believe the use of the term “useable” is one of range management’s major problems. A cow goes where she has to go to get her belly full. She has no concern for the damage she might cause in getting there. TB: Well, I learned something. I thought it [suitability] was in common use everywhere. Because I came in right at the end of what Bill is talking about. I got my appointment right at the end of that study. And all the classes I taught, I used suitability. And it’s in their text book and I thought it was the widely used term now. I didn’t know Region three still or Region four. BH: Well, I believe Region 3 still uses the term “useable” while Region 4 uses the term “suitable” which in my opinion is by far the most descriptive of the message the user is trying to convey. I think I understand Thad’s frustration also. He came into an area where “suitable” was the acceptable term and one he was most apt to pick up. TB: So the basic argument was that suitability is a subjective thing. It depends on the three of us here. We would each have a different opinion. Or usability, you could measure. But I don’t buy that. As a policy of directive and I think suitability makes a lot more sense. BH: Yes, “suitability” is much more acceptable in my opinion. BM: Does suitability eventually have criteria? BH: Yes, it has criteria. BM: . . . that soil and water and re-growth and vegetation … BH: Yes. Suitable for grazing means the forage on the land can be harvested by livestock under a level of management the livestock owner can afford, without unacceptable damage to other resource values The ‘adjacent areas’ is critical in the definition because that means the areas that are otherwise suitable for use can not be reached without unacceptable damage to other areas of land. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  19   �TB: To answer your question more specifically, the criteria and standards were developed by individual agencies. So they would differ and I’m finding out that even within them, the agency, and the society for Range Management has tried a time or two to try to get a standard criteria across all the private and public lands, and they haven’t been able to do it. BM: That’s interesting. Alright, we are going to end this tape today. It’s about 2:30 [PM] on Wednesday, finishing the interview with Bill Hurst. To be continued.   Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (2)     Page  20   � https://highway89.org/files/original/2d91a674268b6fda189b31097293174c.mp3 327a305adc5052d9eab210fc2fbee3c5 https://highway89.org/files/original/8dbcab859972dcec96cc98d5ccab4eb4.pdf cefb28e8ef37235dbabff71707d5b4db PDF Text Text LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: William Daly Hurst Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center; SLC, Utah Date of Interview: 16 April 2008 Interviewer: Barbara Middleton Recordist: Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Tape Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Chelsea Amdal Randy Williams (4/15/09), Barbara Middleton (4/24/09), Bill Hurst, Randy Williams (7 July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where his father was the forest ranger; his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon. Reference:     BH = Bill Hurst BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: We are here on Wednesday, April 16th [2008]. My name is Barbara Middleton; I am one of the interviewers for the Logan Canyon Land Use & Management Oral History Project of Utah State [University]. And we [Thad Box and Barbara] are here visiting with Bill Hurst at the Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center and we are in his room which is just full of Forest Service memorabilia and artifacts and we are here to capture some of his stories from the Logan Ranger District as well as some of the other areas. We’ve got Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  1   �about thirty minutes on this first side and then we will stop and take a lunch break and come back and continue. So you are going to be my timekeeper Bill. Ok? BH: Ok. BM: What I’m going to have you do is introduce yourself with your full name and your birth month and year and tell us where you were born. BH: My name is William Daly Hurst. I was born in Parowan, Utah, Iron County on October the 5th 1915. My father was a forest ranger on the Dixie National Forest at the time I was born. And he was, a year or so later after my birth, he was moved to Panguitch Utah and given a job on the Panguitch Lake Ranger District. He put his entire career on the Dixie and what used to be the Powell National Forest. They are combined today. BM: The Powell National Forest and the Dixie? BH: And the Dixie, but mostly on the Dixie. He worked on the Powell before I was born. And he never moved and he lived in his home in Panguitch. He built the home. And he and mother lived there all of their life. And my dad worked for the Forest Service for about 38-39 years. BM: So you grew up as a child of a forest ranger? BH: Right. And another distinction that I like quite well is my grandfather was a Forest Officer also. He had an interesting beginning. He joined the Forest Service in 1905 and he was an engineer by training. Born and raised in Scotland. In 1905, Gifford Pinchot, the first forester in the United States, and President Theodore Roosevelt were instrumental in establishing the National Forest system. And of course they were looking for people that could survey land and I think that was the primary reason grandfather was selected early on—because he had his early training in engineering, so he could run boundary lines and survey that and map it out. [Stopped tape] BM: Ok, I just stopped the tape for a moment because we want to back up a little bit and we are talking about, Bill’s talking about his grandfather who was born and raised in Scotland. Would you give us his full name? BH: My grandfather’s name was William Radkin Hurst. And my father’s name was William Miller Hurst. And my name is William Daly [Hurst]. And I have a son named William Johansen [Hurst]. The Williams carried down and they’ve always given--the middle name has always been the mother’s [maiden name] of the person being named. BM: So Johansen is your wife’s family name. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  2   �BH: My wife was a Johansen, so our son is named William Johansen. [Chimes in the background.] BM: Now your grandfather, you said, came from Scotland and as an engineer was valuable for with what was needed in the Forest Service. BH: Right. When I say he was an engineer, he had some training in the use of engineering equipment. And he wasn’t a graduate from a college of engineering if they in fact had those in that day. This would be before 1905. BM: Right. BH: But he was skilled enough that he was a Beaver County Engineer. So he was selected; and back in those days I understand that Gifford Pinchot played a role in the selection of that first cadre that came in. So my grandfather was known quite widely as a ‘Pinchot Man’. I think Pinchot actually made a contact with him in those early days of Forester Service. My grandfather . . . we’re really talking about surveying boundaries of the National Forest. You understand, Barbara, I am assuming some of this stuff because he never told me. But I do know that he surveyed a lot of the boundaries of the National Forest when they were first selected. BM: Was it mostly down in the southern Utah area then? BH: Well, it, most of it was in the Southern Utah area. And I think that was a skill that got him involved in the Forest Service. He stayed, my grandfather, stayed with the forest service until 1913, and during that period of time he was a supervisor of the Beaver National Forest, which was headquartered in Beaver [Utah] and that’s where he lived. Later the Fillmore National Forest headquartered in Fillmore, Utah, was added to the Beaver National Forest. He became supervisor of the two forests. Then later on in 1913 they added those two forests to the Face Lake National Forest, which was headquartered in Richfield, Utah. BM: Ok. BH: And they asked grandfather to be supervisor of that forest and move to Richfield. He told them that with 12 children he couldn’t make it on a supervisor’s wage, which was very small. And he said at Beaver “I have a little farm where I keep the boys busy. They raise a lot of our food and get our wood that we used to heat the house and so forth.” So he resigned from the Forest Service and he went back to his job as County Engineer for Beaver County and that was in 1913. BM: Ok. So your dad grew up the child of a Forest Service family also? BH: Yeah he did. And my father William Miller Hurst he joined the Forest Service in 1910, after he passed the rangers examination. He was stationed on the Dixie and Powell Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  3   �National Forests. He worked about 38-39 years in the Forest Service and retired—in I think he retired in 1948 or [19]49. BM: And he was mostly in Southern Utah. You said he was in the area of Parowan, Panguitch? BH: He was District Ranger in Parowan, Utah when I was born. Then about 18 months later he was transferred to Panguitch, Utah. And he lived his career out in Panguitch, Utah. But while he was there he was ranger on three different Ranger Districts; they transferred him around. BM: So your love for forest, the Forest Service, the outdoors, is in your genes. BH: It is. I think that’s right. BM: For many generations. Now with your, with that kind of experience, was there any other choice, did you have any other fields of interest? Because I thought I read something about a medical possibility somewhere along the way. BH: No. BM: No, ok. BH: No, that was never in my plans. However, my oldest son, in fact both my sons started out in the school of natural resources up in Logan. Neither of them stayed though, in that field. The elder son, I think spent 2 or 3 years at school forestry up in Logan. And the younger son has spent 1 or 2 years in that field. And the oldest son went into biology, so that he’d qualify for dental school or medical school. The other son worked for the Forest Service a couple of years while he was going to school of Natural Resources, but he quit that and thought there was a brighter future in Computer Science. So he went into Computer Science and that’s where he makes his living. BM: Probably a good choice. BH: Yeah. He worked for Hewlett-Packard. And he lives here in Salt Lake City. BM: Ok, so you have mentioned two sons. One that’s a dentist in Bend, Oregon another that is at Hewlett-Packard. Are there other children? BH: I have three other children. I have a daughter who is second child in my family of five. And she lives east of here in a town near Heber, Utah, [called] Midway. She’s a graduate of Weber State College [now Weber University] and she put in a career in Education. Most of her career was in the public schools. She became an Assistant Superintendent of the Utah County School District. And then she left that job and went and taught at BYU for three or four years before she retired. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  4   �BM: Ok. And she’s number two. BH: Yeah. BM: So number three? BH: I was going to tell you a little more about number two. She was… BM: What’s her name? BH: Her name’s Kathleen. She married a fellow named Hughes. She was very active in the Mormon Church and she was selected by the president of the Church to be the 1st counselor to the President of the Relief Society—that’s the woman’s organization. And she served a five year stint as 1st counselor to the president of the Relief Society and that really placed her on the General Board they call it, and is a top level administration. You may know more about this than I do? BM: I don’t know that much about it so… BH: It was really quite a special calling for her. And then number four. BM: Oh wait, we missed number three. Who’s the third in line? BH: Oh yeah, number three. Number three is another daughter and her name is Linda. And she married a man named Bryant Nelson. He was a Utah State graduate. And they live in Hewitt, Texas near Waco. Both of them work in retail business. I’m not sure the name of the people they work? Bryant works for a big store complex in Texas, it’s similar to Walgreens (Walgreens would be here). His wife works in a business that supports that group. I think her job is setting up displays in the store around the country. BM: She must be very creative. And then number Four? BH: Four is another daughter and she is another graduate of Utah State. BM: A lot of Aggies here. That’s great. [Bells chime] BH: Yeah, there’s four Aggies. BM: And her name? BH: Her name is Helen. She married a fellow named Tom McKay. She teaches school in Edmond, Oklahoma. Her husband just retired from the Fish and Wildlife Service. He was a biologist. BM: And so number five. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  5   �BH: Number five is a son Carl. BM: BH: That’s Carl? [pointing to a picture] His name is Carl Johansen. And he’s in computer science. BM: That’s the computer person. BH: Yeah and he’s at Hewlett-Packard. BM: Well, from what I’ve read in your memoirs, these names are going to come back through because I think it was your first, now where’s your first son? What was his name, the dentist in Bend [Oregon]? BH: His name is William, William Johansen. BM: I think there’s a horse story somewhere along the way that we want to hear, about one of his horses. BH: Yeah. He’s got all kinds of horses. [Stop tape] BM: Alright, so we have the children, so how about your wife? BH: My wife was living in Grantsville, Utah. Her name was Emma Johansen. But everyone called her Dolly. She went by that name her entire life. I met her when I was working on the Wasatch National Forest out in Tooele County. I spent four, parts of four years, out there and became acquainted with her and married her in 1941. She was with me 41 years before she passed away of liver cancer, which took her fast. BM: So you mentioned the nickname Dolly. Do you know how she got that name? BH: I don’t really know how she got that name except that, you know family stories. She came from a family of, first place her dad was an immigrant from Scotland [thinking, correcting self] Sweden. From Sweden, he was a Swede. And he married, he wound up in northern Utah and how he found her [Dolly’s mother] out in Grantsville I don’t know, but he did and they were married oh about 1905 or] 6 I think. They had seven children and my wife was the last one; she was the 7th. The story they say about her, about the name Dolly, is that her mother was so glad to see this little girl come into the family that she called her “My Dolly.” BM: Oh that’s sweet. So were all the other siblings’ brothers? BH: Oh there was one girl up near the front. One big sister that was about the 2nd one in the family I think and then Dolly wound up being the 7th. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  6   �BM: Five brothers to grow up with. BH: Yeah, five brothers. BM: Ok so what we have here is we have Swedish descendants and we also have Scottish descendants. You said that your, just to finish up this side in the family, your grandfather came over from Scotland. And do you know any geography in how he got to Utah? How did he come in? BH: Yeah I do. He came with his parents, my grandfather Hurst, when he was about 18-19 years old. He came to Utah as a Mormon convert with his mother and dad and two sisters. When they reached the United States the church [Church of Latter Day Saints] of course, met them, I guess at New York, and they sent them to Utah. They sent them here to Salt Lake City; there was a mother and father and the one son and two sisters. BM: How did they travel? BH: When they got to New York I think they traveled by train. Then when they got to Salt Lake City the Church sent them to Beaver County. I say Beaver County because they sent them to a little place that was just under settlement then, Greenville, I think they called it. And my grandfather, he did quite a bit of education and he was picked up right away to teach school. And that’s where he met my grandmother. She also came from parents who immigrated as Mormon converts to the Church. And she in fact, she was one of his students for awhile. They were just two years in age that separated them and they were married and they had a family of 12 children. BM: So a family of 12. And he’s the one that eventually becomes then the engineer. BH: Well, he was the one that could do engineering work. Now I don’t know how much training he had had in it but you know training in those days was a lot different than it is today. And for doctors it is also. But he raised a family of 12 children which is a big family. BM: It is. BH: My mother was raised in Panguitch, Utah. She came from a family of 12 children also. Her name was Katie May Daly; that’s where I get my middle name. She was a school teacher in southern Utah. She got her education in Cedar City, what is now the College of Southern Utah [Southern Utah University], but in those days it was just a two year institution. She met my dad who was a forest ranger in the Parowan/Panguitch area and they were married in 1914. They raised three children which I’ve already described. My mother came from a family of also 12 children. BM: Those are big families in those days. BH: So we had lots of relatives. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  7   �BM: Oh, I’ll bet. We’ll we are almost finished with the end of the tape so let’s stop here and then we will go on to the next section. BH: Ok. [Tape 1 of 2: B] BM: Ok, we are continuing on tape one side two with Bill Hurst. It’s just after a lunch with Fred and some of his other friends and we are going to continue on with Bill’s [story], how he got to USU, the influence of USU in his early training, and also within those college years some of the work that he did in the summertime, which was very important for later on. So Bill, would you tell us a little bit about how you decided to go USU and some of your influences there? BH: I think that I had in my head a long time before I went to college that I was going to Utah State Agricultural College. The reason I say that is that I don’t remember ever thinking about going to either BYU or the University of Utah. Why I didn’t think of that I don’t know, but I didn’t. I always looked forward to going to Utah State. I think one of the reasons I was attracted to Utah State was that quite a few of the young foresters who would show up on the Dixie National, the Powel National Forest, the area’s where I lived, had been graduates of Utah State. And I admired them and the work they were doing. I think I mentioned earlier that I had engineering in mind and I did right up until almost the last moment too. I even took engineering classes that I didn’t need to take, because of the influence [chimes] of the Dean of the School of Engineering, George Clyde. But nonetheless, I wound up in Forestry and majored in Range Management. BM: Now were there some influential people as far as either professors or other folks that [influenced you]? BH: There wasn’t any particular person that got me interested in Utah State or forestry for that matter. Although, looking back my dad and my granddad had an influence on me that I can’t deny. Even though I didn’t look at it that way at the time, but they were both foresters. And they loved the Forest Service and they just had to have an influence on the choice I made. Although I had some very close relatives who had done very well in engineering and they pointed me in that direction also. My dad’s younger brother, Howard, he was an engineer out of the University of Utah, and did very well in life. In the 1930s when I started to college, we were in a big depression in this country. Thousands of men were out of work and jobs were very scarce, particularly in small communities like Panguitch. So there weren’t many opportunities to find a job and so I took a job with Hatch Brother Sheep Company in Panguitch, Utah. The first summer which was 1934, which was the year I graduated out of high school, they used me mainly in their fields and with their haying crops and irrigation and to herd their buck sheep. Their buck sheep were kept away from the female sheep all year long until the fall time when they were turned with the ewes for breeding season. Somebody had to look after Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  8   �the bucks during the summer when they were grazing on local ranges. To make sure they were in at night and not straying. So that was one part of my job, but hay and irrigation comprised a big part of my work. BM: Now let me ask you a question on that because that sounds different than some things that I am familiar with. But you are saying that as part of a sheep range grazing, they are out during the day but then they are brought into an area at night? BH: Yeah, the bucks. That’s the buck sheep. The reason that’s important is that if they get out they might wander off to where there’s a herd of sheep; then get into the ewes’ too early and they have to be pretty exacting on when they do the breeding because that affects when they shear and when the lambs are born and when they do the docking of the lambs and everything else. BM: So it’s very timed? BH: Yeah it’s very timed. In fact it was almost the exact date every year when they turned the bucks with the ewes’ and then the lambs would all come about the same time. BM: What time was that? BH: Well, the lambs would start to come in the last of February the first of March. It was what they call ‘range lambing’ in those days. The lambs weren’t, I mean the ewes’ weren’t put in sheds or barns to have their lambs. They were, they dropped the lambs right out in the open range. They couldn’t have a lot of real severe weather that would freeze the little lambs. So it was a pretty exact science as far as breeding was concerned. And that’s why they had to keep control of the bucks. Nonetheless, I wound up looking after the bucks a part of the year and helping with the hay crops and the irrigation of the alfalfa fields with the Hatch brother’s sheep company. The first summer after one year of college, I went back and they put me out on the range with the herd of sheep. And I spent the month of June what they call lambing the sheep. And that’s when the ewes’ were having their babies. By the first of July the lambing was over and they went through a process of two or three days they’d take the lambs and all the sheep to a corral. They would dock the lambs, which meant cut the tails off of all of them. If they had ear mark, they do marked the lambs. They would castrate the males and put a brand on all the ewes; put a fresh brand on all the ewes. And that took a couple three days. And after that process was over the sheep would go to the summer range. The summer range that I was on for two years was, most of it, was quite a distance from a road. I’d have to take a pack horse along with my bed and groceries and I had a saddle horse to ride. And of course I had a dog; it was a wonderful companion BM: And was that Pal? BH: That’s Pal. I can’t believe how much help he was. I was sleeping in a tent way out alone. Well most of the time, I never worried a minute about him coming in the tent. Pal slept Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  9   �right along the foot of my bed. And if anything happened he’d growl and wake me up. And he did that quite frequently when a coyote came near the sheep. BM: BH: So some of the hazards would be coyote, what else would be worried about? Bear. We were worried about bear. However, I never had a bear get in my sheep. But I did worry about it because that occasionally happened and usually a bear would inflict big time damage on the lambs. They seemed to kill them just for the fun of killing them you know. BM: Ok, not necessarily eating them BH: No they weren’t eating them. The coyotes would just have a little bit. But usually a coyote would eat it, eat the lamb or drag it off some place. I thought of a story. One night in the middle of the night my dog had waken me with a deep growl and I picked up the lamp and put my clothes on and he kept walking outside a little ways and then he would come back in the tent. The hair on his back was standing up and he had this deep growl which I seldom heard him make. I thought for sure a bear was out there in the sheep; although the sheep weren’t moving. You can tell when they move because the bells will tinkle. The bells that were on the sheep—[the ones] that had bells on them. And they weren’t tinkling which indicated that the sheep weren’t moving. But old Pal continued to bark and walk ahead of me a little bit and then come back. And that hair was still standing up on his neck which indicated something pretty bad. BM: Were you nervous? BH: I was quite nervous. I took my 30-30 rifle. And I walked down the trail. We were a long ways from the road. I went down the trail and this dog would walk ahead of me a little ways and then come back and then walk ahead, come back, all with that deep growl. Finally, about a mile from camp, I heard a faint call say “Bill. Bill.” and then I knew someone was trying to find me. But I knew it wasn’t a bear. [laughing] I was relieved in that respect, but I was more concerned because what in the world would somebody be looking for me at 2 o’clock in the morning? And I thought “my folks.” I thought something’s happened to my dad or mother or my sister. And they’re trying to find me. What in the world would they be out here in this time of night if it wasn’t something serious. And so that made everything else like bears, coyotes, seem trifle. So I kept walking down the trail and the voice came louder and louder and finally we met. And it was a friend of mine from Utah State University that had a summer job with the forest up at that country. He had been out marking timber. He left early in the morning from Panguitch Lake and went out to mark timber. He broke down, his car broke down on the way home and he knew that I was in the vicinity. His name was Bill Thompson. Finally, I ran into him and he told me his story. Well we moseyed back up to the tent and both of us crawled in the bed and went to sleep. And got up the next morning and had breakfast after the sheep were settled. Then I took him, I had a mule and a horse there and we saddled both [chimes] of those animals up and went back to the highway Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  10   �where his car was. And it still wouldn’t run. So we waited until a car came through and he got a ride to Panguitch Lake. And I went back to the sheep herd. BM: Now, I want to go back to a part of that story because you made a comment about the sheep having bells. But only certain ones had bells. Who do you decide to put the bell on? BH: Ya know, I don’t know. I never put bells on any sheep myself. They were already on the sheep when I took over, so I can’t tell you that. But I do know that bells were very important for two reasons. One is the dingling would tell you where the sheep were. And then if, I think they had a bell on about a 1 in every 50 sheep. And there were 1200 sheep, so you would have 24 bells. And in addition to that they kept so many black sheep in the herd. And the black sheep were kept in the herd to facilitate counting them. It would be difficult you know, for anyone to count 1200 sheep plus the lambs and there’d be more than 1200 lambs because a ewe usually has two lambs. So there would be 1200 plus. But these belled sheep and the black sheep are what are known as counters. So when the herder brings the sheep in to bed them at night, he’ll count. He’ll count the blacks and he’ll count the bells if he can do it. Sometimes you can’t count the bells because they might be in lie down so you don’t hear a tinkle. But you have the bells that you count sometimes. But you always count the blacks. If you have say 24 blacks in the herd and you count 24 blacks you can be reasonably certain you got your herd. If you are missing one, you better go look, hunt. You know you got a job the next day, trying to find the other black. BM: So it’s kind of like sampling. BH: Yeah it is; it’s the same thing. And so that’s the reason they have blacks and bells. And of course the bells tell you where the sheep are too. They are valuable in that respect. BM: Interesting. So these were, this was the Hatch Company was your summer job. Was this each summer that you went home from college? BH: I’d go right to the sheep when I got home, maybe stayed home for overnight or something like that. They were anxious for me to come because they were in the middle of lambing and they needed the [help], you know if I was going to work for them all summer they needed the help right now. BM: But you were put out with the herd and you were responsible once the lambing was done and some of the other things that you talked about with castrating and some of the other jobs. Then you were put out with the herd in a meadow? BH: Oh no, not the meadow. It was just mountains just like these mountains. BM: So tell us about the landscape you covered. BH: The what? Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  11   �BM: The landscape that you were in. BH: Well, it was a mountainous landscape, there was lots of aspen, lots of pine trees, quite a lot of spruce and fir and there was some quite large and deep canyons. Mammoth Creek went right through the area. It was well isolated. The Hatch brothers had three herds and one herd was on the south of me, one herd was one the north of me. The herd on the north of me was headquartered in what they called Castle Valley and that had a road running through it. And the sheep foreman had a sheep wagon there and he’d bring his wife and his little girls up to stay with him during the summer time. And he would move that camp. It was a big valley, a big, great huge valley, that had plenty of area that were the sheep could graze all summer long. So he’d be there and take care of the sheep. But he’d be home every night. And once a week at least he’d ride over to the camp I was in, and the camp that my partner was in, the same man both years, was in the other camp. And he’d ride over to make sure we had salt; we had to salt the sheep at least every two days. BM: And why is that? BH: Well, they just needed salt. A lactating female will die if she doesn’t have salt. BM: So it was just a common nutrient that they need. BH: Yeah, well, that’s an ingredient of milk you know. And milk cow you have to have salt before her all the time because, as I said, if they don’t have salt they die. So he had to make sure we had salt every couple of days and he’d come over at least once a week and sometimes more often and bring us salt. And he’d bring us groceries. And on each trip that he’d make to our camp he’d say “what do you need now for the next week in the way of groceries” and you’d always have an inventory ready for him. BM: So what kind of things did you order? BH: Well, they were quite limited. They didn’t include candy bars or anything like that. We made sour dough bread. That was made out flour and baking soda and put a little sugar in it. And this fermented flour and sugar thing and you know what sour dough is? BM: Yes, I love it. BH: Yeah I love it too. That was a basic thing and we always had bacon. And they tried to keep us in eggs. And we had, we ate lots of beans and we ate lots of rice. Rice and raisins was a favorite dish. BM: A hot dish? BH: Well, it could be either cold or hot. You’d cook the rice and put some raisins in it and they’d swell up. You know. It made really a good dish, I still love it. Put a little salt in it and usually it was cold. Then you’d put some canned milk on it and we’d always have Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  12   �canned milk. Oh it was good food; I loved it. I still love it, cheaper food. And occasionally we’d kill a mutton. They had a few, oh a mutton and they were males that had been castrated and they’d let them live over a year so they were a year old or better. When we would kill a mutton the camp herder would usually split it three ways: he’d take part of it and give the other herder part of it and me part of it so we could eat it before it spoiled. BM: Because I was going to say you would have to store that some way. BH: Well that was kind of a unique thing too; we used to put it in a seamless sack in the day time and rolled it up in the bed. Then at night we’d hang it up. Have a rope on it that was up over the limb of a tree if there was a tree around, and hang it up above the fly line and flies don’t go way high. We’d drag it up and let it hang out all night. And the nights were at that elevation, 8,000 to 9,000 feet, would be quite cool. Then bring it down in the day time and put it in a seamless sack and wrap it up in the bed again. So it would go in the bed quite cold and stay pretty cool all day. We had good mutton to eat. And I don’t know, my mother used to send me up cookies once in a while when somebody was coming in my direction. BM: What kind of cookies? BH: Oh she was great on the sugar cookies. And I don’t know if she ever made chocolate chip or not. I don’t remember. But I’d like that. And dad would bring some apples once in a while. We ate pretty good at the sheep camp. One of the owners—it was three brothers that owned these sheep. And one of the owners had a son named Delosh, and once in a while his dad would bring him up and let him stay over four or five days with me. He was quite a lot younger than I, but he’d come up and have a good time. Incidentally, he called me here not a week or two ago, but a month or so ago. He was up here with his sister. And we thrashed over the old sheep herder days. BM: What fun to catch up like that! BH: Yeah, he lives in Canada. Well, that’s about the way the sheep herding went. I had that job for two summers. In the 3rd summer I started working for the Forest Service. [Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: This is tape two side one, April 16th [2008] and we are here with Bill Hurst continuing our interview and we are talking about sheep herding as a summer job in college. Bill, you mentioned two years with sheep herding and then in the summer of [19]36 is your forestry camp? BH: I had herded sheep that summer [1936] and the summer camp, the first summer camp that Utah State University forestry school held was in 1936, the fall of 1936. It was about a 6 to 8 weeks camp; I’ve forgotten the exact length. It started about the first of September. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  13   �BM: So I had to leave the herd, sheep herding job, a little early that year to get up to Logan and go to summer camp. Then, immediately after summer camp of course, school started. So I entered my junior year of college. Would you tell us a little bit about summer camp since some of us don’t have the experience of that. BH: Well, it was really quite an enjoyable time as far as I was concerned. I think there were 35 to 40 young men there. They had a wonderful cook, a man and wife team and their name was Cooley: Mr. and Mrs. Cooley. He was an excellent cook and so was she. And she was a motherly type lady; she was appreciated by all the boys you know. They liked to visit with her and tell her their troubles and their experiences as well. It was a very helpful camp also because we were out in the field and we were doing things that we’d probably have to do if we went to work for the Forest Service; like survey pieces of land and put out forest fires. Radios were just being adopted that were two way, two-way radios. We learned how to operate the two-way radio and we learned how to mark timber. BM: So was that timber cruising? BH: Well ‘cruising’ is where you estimate the volume of the timber. We did that also yeah. Then we learned which trees out of the stand you would mark in different species of timber. Where we had access to different species of timber, we’d actually go out and select the tree that we thought should be cut and mark it somewhere. We didn’t do any cutting or anything like that. We just learned which trees out of a stand should be cut, depending on their new crown and how large they were and how thick they were, and cut them so that you’d release the smaller trees and get the old trees out that weren’t putting on any further fiber. So in many respects it started preparing us for the work that we could expect to do in the years ahead, if we were in forestry. We also learned how to estimate utilization on grasses and forbs and learn which of those plants cattle and sheep would prefer. Just a general review of Forest Service activities, out on the range, in the forest. BM: Can we go back to when you say estimate utilization of the range. Explain that to a nonrange person when you say that. BH: here are several ways they do that. One is, and the most accurate job anyway but one that takes time, is to have a cage out at strategic locations, and they called these key areas. That’s key areas where the livestock generally go to graze. Have cages out there that prevent the livestock from eating that grass, [like exclosures to keep animals out of a particular area]. These might be 3 feet in diameter, sometimes they have permanent fenced areas that are about a rod square: 16½ feet square. A lot of those are put in permanently so they are never utilized. But they use a lot of cages out that are just annually put down. And then the animals will eat around them. The most accurate way is to take a pair of scales out and clip the residue on the outside down to what you think is proper level and weigh. Then clip the similar area inside the cage and weigh that. And compare the two and you get a percentage utilization that way. If you do this enough you can make fairly accurate estimates of utilization just by walking through the country. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  14   �When I was ranger I did very little clipping, I’d just go out and look at a piece of country and could tell almost as well by estimating how much was gone. Because I knew that the heavy stuff would be on the bottom and the lighter stuff would be on the top. And if they take it down within two inches you know they haven’t gotten half of it yet. And so you do a lot of estimating. But that’s the way they determine plant utilization. A lot of people say “well that couldn’t be very accurate” but I disagree, it is quite accurate. Livestock people and the forest ranger, whoever’s doing work for the Forest Service, they get pretty good at estimating the percent of forage that’s gone from an area. Each vegetative type usually has a maximum and a minimum standard. So if they get down to the minimum standard you know they’re taking too much. And the maximum maybe they’re not taking as much as they could. That’s the way she’s done. BM: Now this is the college of forestry at the time? BH: Yes. BM: And you were at forestry summer camp, so is there also an area [of study] that is helping you look at watershed or wildlife or some of the other aspects that I think of today that are part of the college. Where was that kind of thinking? BH: We took classes in that. The only difference, well by the time we got to the period we are talking about we had a division, I mean a School of Wildlife Management and a School of Range Management as well as a School of Forestry. Now they got a school of Recreation and other things and Watershed Management and so forth. But when I started school in 1934-35, we just had the School of Forestry. It was headed over by the head of the School of Forestry by the name T.G. Taylor, doctor. We had Paul Dunn, he taught the forestry classes. And Dr. [can’t remember his name] oh dear, anyway we had a fellow that taught range management and he also taught dendrology, like the study of trees. And he taught some classes in—[remembers name of professor] Raymond Becraft. He was the other professor. Those three fellows pretty well handled the School of Forestry which existed in those days. Sometimes they’d get graduate students to come in and help, like teach some of the classes. You’d go to the botany building to learn about plants, identify plants and all that stuff. And you’d go to soils building, where they specialized in soils to learn about—to take your soils classes. So it was a pretty well rounded out program, even before they divided the School of Forestry into these three divisions. When we got Dr. Rasmussen for wildlife, he created a Wildlife School that was just one of the best in the country. And Dr. Stoddard: Ely Stoddard, he set up the school of Range Management which also was widely recognized as being an excellent school. That’s the one that I chose to graduate in. Since then of course they’ve expanded that and they have this School of Watershed Management now. And they have some others. BM: The wild lands, which range and forestry are incorporated into that, and wildlife is in that also. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  15   �BH: Yeah. That’s kind of like it used to be when I first joined, they were teaching them all and they were all meshed in together. BM: Well when you talk about that several times in your book, you talk about the importance of understanding the inner relationships. BH: Yeah, you have to do that. BM: Some of it was from a predator-prey standpoint. And some of the others were just the watershed standpoint with grazing, grazing management and watershed systems. BH: The watershed condition is the key to good management. If you don’t have control over your watershed you don’t have good management on the land. So they give a lot more attention to watersheds now than they used to. Although watershed has been important, you know that’s what you’re talking about when we talk about all these flash floods that came off these mountains. That was just watershed management. BM: And that was a strong part of what was going on in the landscapes around you that you’re seeing as a student. BH: Yeah. All those big floods, and I say all of them, not all of them by any means, were taking place during that period of time. Some of them were taking place during that period of time. And they were terrific floods and, of course, they don’t happen as often anymore as they used to happen. And that’s really because they have better watersheds. BM: So some of the places that were infected were like Ephraim and where else? BH: Well, there were a lot of them up on the Wasatch Front, between Ogden—well let me see. It was that country—it was north of Salt Lake City and between there and Weber Canyon. BM: Layton area? BH: No, but maybe Bountiful and through there. There were a lot of those floods taking place down around Manti and through that country where the Great Basin forestry range and experiment station, through there. BM: And that would be Ephraim right at the bottom of that canyon. Now at that time also with the camp experience, how many students are we talking about being enrolled? What was the class size like at summer camp? [chimes] BH: Oh at summer camp? Well, I think I mentioned that earlier and I’ll probably contradict it now. But, I don’t remember the number I gave you before but, I think it we had around 40 students up there the first year. BM: So you’re camping in the old CCC buildings that are there. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  16   �BH: Right. BM: And you are using quite a large area of Logan Canyon, of the upper Logan Canyon, are you using primarily right around the camp? BH: Primarily right around the camp; although we took excursions out from the camp, different places. The University owns a big section of land up there. A lot of it was taking place that was right behind the old CCC camp where we were staying. We’d hike up and over the top of that hill and do a lot of our training work up right within, well, inside of the camp. BM: Is that now called the Ted Daniels Forest? BH: Yeah I think it is. BM: Alright. BH: Yeah that’s it. BM: Were you at the University when Ted was there? BH: No. He came after. I used to have fun with Ted. He was ours for many years you know. He was a really permanent fixture at the University. He was recognized and honored quite a few times. I’d kid him once in a while and say “Yeah I remember when you came.” BM: When he was a young guy. BH: Yeah. So I remember when he came, and I can too. Yeah I was graduated before he came. BM: And he made that one hill famous. What did he call it? Benchmark Hill? BH: Yeah, that’s Benchmark Hill. You’re right. Well, the hill’s named after him now isn’t it? Ted Daniels Forest Hill. Yeah he’s quite a guy. He did a lot for the school of forestry too. BM: Bill, you’ve been talking about your USU experience and summer sheep herding and your forestry camp experience. We are going to finish up for today, so would you summarize for us the importance, the experience, some of the ways that USU prepared you for your first job in entering into a profession in forestry and range? BH: I started to work for the Forest Service in the summer of 1937. That of course was before I graduated. I worked until the latter part of September that year and then I returned to the Utah State University to graduate in the spring of 1938. I went back into in June of 1938, I went back into the same job that I’d left the previous fall. Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  17   �BM: And what job was that? BH: That was called administrative guard on the Grantsville division of the Wasatch National Forest. It’s out west of Salt Lake City towards Wendover. I was on Stansbury Mountain, which was an isolated mountain standing out in the desert, but it runs from lake level which is about 4200 feet to 10,000 some odd feet in the air above timberline. It’s a magnificent long mountain; it has all of the life zones clear from, oh south desert, desert shrub to tundra, above timberline. So it was a wonderful place to work. There was no timber to cut on the forest, there was timber, but they didn’t cut any of it except few poles and things like that. But it was a big range management job and the country was alive with deer. So I gained a lot of experience in range management and wildlife management while I was on that district. After I returned in 1938 they assigned the Vernal Division of the Uinta National Forest to me and it later became a Ranger District. A few years after I left, they consolidated this Vernal Division and this Grantsville Division, which I’d been on. They consolidated those together and made a ranger district out at Tooele, Utah. Since that time, it’s been a part of the Wasatch National Forest. Now I understand they’re going to put all three of those forests together. BM: Right. The Cache, Wasatch, Uinta. BH: Yeah. So I enjoyed another three years on those units. I should say however that there were periods when I would be laid off. During the next three years there were periods that they’d just run out of money to pay someone. And when that did happen they would put me over on the main part of the Wasatch National Forest out east of Salt Lake up around Kamas and Evanston and Granddaddy Lakes and [I would] work mainly in timber. Selling lots of timber crops in those days: that’s mining crops. Then there were huge insect control job projects going on. I worked on those and became superintendant of a 200 men crew up in insect control one year. In fact, I had that job when I got my permanent employment with the Forest Service. BM: What kind of insect control were you doing? BH: It was the mountain pine beetle. It was in lodgepole pine well, mainly lodgepole pine. There were tremendous attacks and killed a lot of lodgepole pines. But they’re still going on you know? Colorado’s complaining all the time now about insects taking all their trees. I’ve about reached a conclusion that that isn’t too bad. We can’t use it; the forest has to turn over and that’s the way that nature has for turning them over. BM: Uh huh. BH: The only trouble, and the thing that bothers lots of people, is they’re burning up a valuable resource that you can make gasoline out of now. And then big fires get into Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  18   �them, into this dead timber, and sweeps out of the dead timber and into live timber, you notice those downsides to it, too. But on the other hand, the forest is turning over. We just never have been able to use all that timber, no matter how much or how badly we’d like to see it utilized. You got to have a place to use it. And then, I’m jumping ahead quite a few years now, but when I was supervisor of the Ashley National Forest we sold the largest crop timber sale that was ever made in the United States. We were so proud of that. We thought, boy this is really going to make an inroad into all this old rich lodgepole pine. You know those trees that don’t grow too big in diameter but they grow up straight and you can cut a lot of crops out of them. Well, we just got that timber sold at a good price—not only the largest sell but it brought the biggest amount of money. They got to bidding for us and they went way high, the timber operators did. Within ten months they had invented what they call the screw bolt process, I mean a plate screw process. Where they take a big old square piece of heavy iron and they’d run a couple of holes through that then they’d put that up in the top of the mining shaft and screw bolts through these holes and up into the crevices of the coal. Then [they] take huge wenches, they had down there, and tighten them up and put that plate right up solid against the coal mine, the top of the coal mine. That protects it as well as those mining props were doing and a lot cheaper. The bottom fell out of the [timber] crop sales. People who had bid these big high prices, we had to make some adjustments and do it fast. And cancel a sale under, you know you’re not supposed to do that really, but we were forced to do it. Like when I say we were forced, what could a poor guy do? He can’t sell his crops. BM: It lost it’s economic value. BH: Yeah, well, yeah it lost it’s economic value. Well, that only compounded the problem that we had and have an overabundance of this over mature stuff. So what are you going to do with it? [End of first interview] Logan  Canyon  Oral  History  Project:  William Daly Hurst (1)     Page  19   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Daly Hurst interviews, 16 April 2008 & 11 February 2009, and transcriptions Description An account of the resource In Bill Hurst's first interview, he discusses his experiences with the Forest Service: (father and grandfather both worked for the U.S. Forest Service in Utah), including Hurst's service in the Logan Ranger District and the Cache National Forest in Logan Canyon. Then in the second interview he shares his experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where his father was the forest ranger his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hurst, William Daly, 1915- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Box, Thadis W. Subject The topic of the resource Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Interviews Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Family Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Career in Forestry Logan Ranger District (Utah) United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees United States. Forest Service Hurst, William Radkin Hurst, William Miller Forest rangers--Utah--Biography Mormon converts--Utah--Biography Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews Sheepherding--Utah Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes Forests and forestry--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Forests and forestry--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Utah State Agricultural College. School of Forestry Watershed management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Range management--Utah Forest reserves--Utah Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Becraft, Raymond J. Benchmark Hill (Logan Canyon, Utah) Grazing--Utah Watershed restoration--Utah--Citizen particiapation Deseret Land and Livestock Company (Utah) Public lands--Utah Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association Forests and forestry--Multiple use--Utah--Citizen participation Benson, Ezra Taft Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Public opinion Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Grazing--Research--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah State University. School of Natural Resources--Research Forest ecology--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Iron County (Utah) Beaver County (Utah) Dixie National Forest (Utah) Panguitch (Utah) Utah United States Salt Lake City (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 4 & 5 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd5WilliamDalyHurst Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 6 April 2008 11 February 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-06 2009-02-11 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/6ecd1a5239f78841f0e972568bea2206.mp3 4ac23eb454cb20494fd3826dcac56b25 https://highway89.org/files/original/bf96d46ed29a408de96e43cb3f0580b0.pdf 25ba4986f127c99e294c9cd2e1ae1ed1 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: John Neuhold and Ron Goede Place of Interview: John Neuhold’s home, Logan, Utah Date of Interview: Sunday, 22 February 2009; 9 a.m. Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Barbara Middleton; Randy Williams (July 2011); reviewed by John Neuhold (July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: John Neuhold and Ron Goede discuss their experiences at USU Summer Camp (and the skills and camaraderie they gained there) and other experiences in their education, including those with the GI Bill; the Mossback group; and the politics of land use management. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JN = John Neuhold RG = Ron Goede NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: I’m going to mark the tape here so we know what we’re doing. We’re at John Neuhold’s house here on Island Drive and it is Sunday, February 22, 2009. We’re here with John Neuhold and also Ron Goede. The purpose of our talk this morning is to discuss a little bit about some of their memories of Forestry Camp (Field Camp, Summer Camp; it goes by a lot of different names) with Utah State University. Let’s start off with John – your arrival at Field Camp and some of your first memories of that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  1   �JN: My arrival at the Utah State Agricultural College School of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management Forestry Camp was in June 15, 1950. We had a huge group; well over 100 undergraduate students were participating in the summer camp. Most of them were World War II veterans (like me). It was really an interesting group. The camp itself was composed of a central building (which was basically the mess hall and the primary meeting room); the second permanent building involved some dormitory space, but was mostly occupied by the instructors (the professors in the program). The next two building were World War II Quonset huts that housed the balance of us in double-decker bunks. When I got there on the 16th of June we had a lot of cold weather still; there was snow on the ground. The classes started (I don’t remember exactly what day the 16th was – I think it was a Friday), but the classes started the following Monday, at any rate. The group was big enough that it was divided up into three sub-groups, and each sub-group went into a specific specialty headed by one of the professors. The professors that were involved at that time were Dr. Ted Daniels, Ray Moore (who was at that time still had not had his doctorate, but after World War II he became a professor here), Bill Sigler (who headed the wildlife program), George Kilker was also involved in that as part of the wildlife program, Bill Heldy did the aquatic stuff and George did the terrestrial wildlife stuff. Art Smith was involved, and he was in the area of range management. Wayne Cook was also involved, he was range management. That I think was basically the basic faculty group that handled the program. BM: And Ted Daniels would’ve been in Forestry? JN: Ted was Forestry, so was Ray Moore. BM: Okay. RG: Was Art Smith working for Fish and Game? JN: Well he had a joint appointment. RG: Like Phil Urness. JN: Like Phil Urness, yeah. His salary was paid by Fish and Game, but he held tenure as a professor at the university. BM: So was that a cooperative appointment? JN: Um-hmm. RG: Do they still have that John? JN: Yeah they do. RG: I don’t even know who it is anymore. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  2   �JN: No, I don’t remember who it is either now. BM: And that was Art Smith that had that? JN: That was Art Smith that had it, yeah. He was followed by Phil Urness. Then when Phil died – I don’t know who took over – RG: Charlie Jensen was in there for a while. BM: Now you mentioned a connection with World War II – these folks coming out of the war (you said that specifically for Ray). Was that typical for any of these other folks that you mentioned? JN: Well let’s see. Bill Sigler was a lieutenant (kept two bars) on the sub-chaser during World War II and then was assigned later on to the formation of the United Nations in San Francisco. Ted Daniels was not in the military, but Ted (before he joined the faculty here and graduated from Berkley) he ran ferry boats in San Francisco Bay. He was a captain on one of the ferry boats there. Ray Moore, Wayne Cook both were in the military – I don’t recall exactly what branch of the service they were in. Art Smith was a captain in the Army; George Kilker was not in the military he was a “4 Fer.” I think that pretty well did all of it. Most of them were returned veterans though – most of the students. So you know it was – RG: Everybody was a veteran. JN: Yeah, it was a brotherhood actually, when you get right down to it. It was a very informal relationship between student and professor. It was really a lot of fun. BM: Now you said, “a 4Fer.” What is that? JN: A “4 Fer” – you were excused from the military for physical reasons. BM: Okay. RG: One A was the top – you were most vulnerable if you were classified as “1A” and all the way to a “4F” that was exempt. BM: So it was a range. That’s kind of interesting because is this where the GI Bill comes into play? JN: Oh yeah. Virtually all of the students were supported by the GI Bill. That was one of the – I wish to heck we would have something like this going again. It really stimulated our economy – this is what made our economy bloom like it did. Getting a lot of the people an education that they would never have had the chance to get before. Then they managed to go on through and become professionals in a lot of the resource management agencies. For a long time throughout the [19]‘50s and into the ‘60s (if not throughout the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  3   �entire ‘60s up to the ‘70s), Utah State University was the prime source of personnel for the federal land management agencies; and a lot of the state agencies. The class that I was in, for example (in that summer camp), we had [counting to himself] three people that became directors of Fish and Game departments in states around the country. At least three: Bud Phelps – RG: Harold Wilson. JN: Harold was later on, he wasn’t in that particular class. RG: No, not in that class. JN: Don Smith, Jack Hammond – he became director of Ohio and then later on of New Hampshire I think. Anyhow, there were a bunch like that for the state organizations. RG: Was Tom Trelease part of that? JN: He became Chief of Fisheries in Nevada. Don Andriano  became Chief of Fisheries here in Utah. You know, the people in that particular class (they’re all retired or dead now), they all got into leadership positions. BM: Now they’re going to places that are outside of Utah – JN: Oh yeah! BM: Were they also coming from outside of Utah? JN: Oh yeah, yes I’ll say! There were very few Utahans in that group, actually. BM: Hmmm. RG: Yeah, natural resources in general were primarily non-resident. BM: So what was the pull for Utah State and who were the other competitors at the time? JN: The other competitors at the time: Michigan State University – RG: Montana was pretty – JN: Montana was; Oregon State. In the fisheries area, University of Washington – they were mostly marine fisheries. RG: Missouri had one too. JN: Missouri did, yeah, but it didn’t produce as much as some of the others. Oh, Penn State! That was one of the major – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  4   �RG: That’s where – JN: Yeah, that’s your organization, yup. BM: That’s kind of interesting to me that there’s a much smaller range of universities to choose from at that time. JN: Oh yeah! BM: And Utah State is getting such a national presence, as well as a national student body. RG: It was known – I got guys to come to Utah State from – Mel Stein who was the director of the Nebraska Fish and Game – when I decided I wanted to do it I wanted to talk to him and went to his office and talked to him about if he had ideas where I might go. BM: So what was going on here? Were people just so well known? Were the issues that were being looked at Utah State so critical in terms of the whole national picture? Why such a presence? RG: I think it had to do with the people that started these programs. JN: Yeah actually there was a big transition from a political system to these various positions as Game Wardens (for example), and as Foresters. Well you had to meet certain criterion to get into the Forest Service which meant you had to have a bachelor’s degree in Forestry. RG: In Utah; well in a lot of those states also got out of the patronage system and it went to like here, you had to be a professional to be director. JN: That came later on, actually. RG: It still was a political appointment, but they had to appoint it to a professional. JN: Yeah, that was changed under the Leavitt administration. RG: That was when [Joe] Valentine became director [Utah Wildlife Resources]; I think he was the first one that was not a professional. BM: What was the nature of these people in terms of this “patronage” idea? These were the people that lived in the area, knew the landscape and just slipped into these positions? JN: Basically that’s what it was. BM: But good land experience? JN: Not necessarily. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  5   �RG: Not necessarily. JN: Depended upon how high up you were in the political party. RG: I think they did that right at the time, that’s how they got Joe Valentine in there. JN: Yeah. RG: They actually had to change the law. JN: They had to change the law – RG: [inaudible] would be director. JN: That was the Leavitt administration that did that. And Ron was responsible for getting Leavitt all hot and bothered about it. [Laughing] RG: I brought levity into the whole thing. BM: Well you know, that must be interesting though for that transition because you have people put in place that may or may not have the experience, and then you guys are coming out of – you and a bunch of others – are coming out of these programs with professional training, exposure, and what sounds like a lot of field experience. What was that transition like? JN: It was interesting. Bill McConnell and I were the first two professionally trained Fishery Biologists in the Division of Wildlife Resources. We started a program that basically took hold. Harold Crane became the director while I was working for the Division, and up until then it was Perry Egan was the director. He was a banker and he turned out to be a very good leader. He was all for getting professional things started in the Division of Wildlife Resources (or the Fish and Game Department as it was known at that time). RG: But they had to hire good people in order [inaudible]. You can be a good leader but they’ve got to surround themselves with good people. BM: Right. JN: And that was one of his strengths; he was really a neat guy and I really enjoyed working for him. RG: J Perry Egan Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  6   �JN: J Perry Egan – or as his wife referred to it, she was not one of the Irish Eagan. She had a French background and she pronounced her name as E-gan! [Laughing] And she insisted upon that, “Egan!” RG: The Eagan Hatchery is named after J Perry Eagan. BM: And where is that? RG: Bicknell. BM: Bicknell? JN: Bicknell. RG: There’s another Egan up here in Richmond that built one of these barns. That was one of the body guards of Brigham Young. So there’s quite a history there. I don’t think Perry was tied up with that group of Egans. Do you think he was? JN: He probably was, yeah. Anyhow, it was a period of transition. Working in that system, you know most of the people that we worked with they have only two professionally trained fishery biologists: Dale Jones, Jay Udy and Bud Phelps – they all came on but they were on the terrestrial side. The transition was interesting because all of our fieldwork – we had to interact with these patronage type people holding down regional and district game warden jobs and that sort of thing. It became pretty chancy at times because they were very jealous of their prerogatives and they didn’t want these college kids telling them what to do, you know and so on. So we had to exercise a lot of tact to get through it. We won most of them over actually, when you get right down to it. BM: Do you remember any particular experience with that transition that was interesting? JN: Oh yeah. See, one of the programs that I initiated and was leading was doing the lake and stream survey up in the Uinta Mountains. And we had a CO up there (Guy Bronson, was that his name, Bronson?) – RG: Yeah. JN: Man! I’ll tell you – if we didn’t inform him that we were going to be in the area, he’d go down to the director and complain. We had that kind of stuff coming up from all kinds of directions. We never did swing him over. RG: His son was better. JN: His son was better, yeah. RG: Quite an artist. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  7   �JN: Oh yeah, that’s right. He did a lot of the area – RG: A great wildlife artist – Clark Bronson. BM: Say the name again? RG: Clark. BM: Clark? RG: Clark Bronson. He was Guy Bronson’s son. JN: But you know, we had other guys in the organization like Bit Clark (who became, actually, regional director), Jess Wynn – RG: Jack Rensel. JN: Well Jack came on actually after I did. RG: Jack was the first actual regional director. JN: He was the first regional director. RG: He’s the one I suggested you might want to talk to. JN: Yeah, as a matter of fact I talked to him yesterday and told him he’d be expecting a call from you, so. He would be a really good one to talk to. RG: Jack’s a first-class guy, I really like him. BM: Did any of these people come to field camp? Were they part of the experience at all to meet any of these agency people? JN: No. BM: No. JN: No. BM: So it was strictly professors at that time? JN: Strictly professors. RG: There was another dimension here though, as far as the existence of the field camp, they did use the field camp quite often. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  8   �BM: Who’s “they”? RG: People like the regions and the DWR would have – JN: But that was substantially later. RG: Yeah, I know, but they used the camp. JN: Yeah, they used the camp. RG: That’s why I said there was more than just school. The camp served for the in-service training and that sort of thing. I don’t know what they paid for that, but they used it because you could stay there; they could be billeted right there, you know. BM: I wonder if there was more of a transition later on as that transition eased over time? JN: Yeah, there actually was because when J Perry Eagan retired (or he died, actually, on the job), Harold Crane took over. Harold Crane had a Master’s Degree – a degree from the University of Utah in Mammalogy. He was really a top notch leader. He had a tendency to get drunk too often! [Laughing] RG: Yeah, he was [inaudible]. He was director when I hired on. JN: Yeah. He insisted that anybody that was hired by the Division had to have a Bachelor’s degree, at least. The only area there was an exception to was in the hatcheries. RG: And some of the law enforcement. JN: And some of the law enforcement, yeah. BM: Why hatcheries? JN: Well because it was slop jobs. RG: A lot of that was just labor. BM: So more “tech” kinds of things? RG: Actually, I was the one that started training the hatchery people; so now they have to be trained and they have to take tests. JN: Well actually after Ron took over, most of the hatchery people that ended up being hired had degrees. Those that didn’t he ended up training. BM: And when is that transition? What’s the timeline there? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  9   �JN: Oh, it took a long time. My experience started in the [19]‘50s and Ron came on in the early ‘70s (wasn’t it?). RG: ’66 is when I took – JN: Oh, ’66. RG: I first came here to school in ’57. But I came back here from Missouri and started to work in ’66. That’s when I started taking over that part and driving it up to get the professional. BM: How long did that transition take – from ’67 when you started – until they started to really look at hatchery people needing Bachelor’s degrees. JN: Well right away actually. RG: Yeah, they started looking at it right away. They started the assistant’s job at my place (like the one job Doug Routledge has now), they would put up the work for me just for a short while and they would be trained while they worked for me. Then I started developing the two-week intensive training for all of them. So I ended up teaching everybody that worked for the state. Now when they apply for the job, they are tested for that body of knowledge. They have to know how to do those basic things. JN: But it was actually until well into the ‘70s that we finally had that all taken care of. So you know it was a long transition period. A lot of the patronage appointments they went out by way of attrition; they simply retired. And when they retired they were replaced with the appropriately educated people. RG: Actually when that started working best for me was when Bill Gear became chief when Don Adriano retired. JN: Yeah. RG: Because that’s when I told him that I felt that hatcheries needed to be straight line, and not my staff. They had people supervising the hatcheries that didn’t know anything about hatcheries. So I wanted them to answer to Salt Lake and the chief of hatcheries, not to the regional supervisors. I think about the only place in the state in that organization where it is such a straight line. JN: That’s right, it is the only place they have a straight line. RG: I told them you’ve got to have them working for professional hatchery people who understand what the problems are. JN: It’s really a lot different. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  10   �BM: So just staying on this idea of transitions, before we go out to field camp, it’s a long time that you both have worked in the industry, as well as the years you’ve had in retirement to look back and watch the changes. Is there another transitional period that the agency is going through in terms of the kinds of people or the kinds of training that newer people have coming in? What’s the difference? JN: I think that’s right, first of all the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is dominated by USU graduates. But that slowly has been changing and you find more BYU graduates in the organization now than you ever did before. And actually the University of Utah doesn’t have that many people in it. RG: Most of the people I find they hired were all from out of state. JN: A lot of out-of-staters, yeah. BM: So why did BYU dominate? JN: Who knows? They kind of fancy themselves as a natural resource organization down there, which they were not. RG: But I think also that USU (and this is strictly my opinion – John may agree with it, but he probably won’t). [Laughing] JN: That’s right! RG: The University up here started to get away from the idea of management of the resource. I don’t think they learn the management principles anymore. JN: Well, I agree with that. RG: And so they’re looking elsewhere, people who do have those management principles. BM: Tell me more about that. RG: Well we used to have a course, for instance, Principles of Wildlife Management, Principles of Fisheries Management, and so on. They teach how to actually go out and manage the resource: the tools that you need. That doesn’t seem to be there anymore. You’ve got ideas of Fisheries Biology you know, and some of them have some pretty good training in fisheries biology, but they’re not taught how to go out and manage the resource. JN: No, that’s right. And actually (of course I was involved in teaching a lot of that stuff, management parts of it), you get right down to the nitty-gritty of what those field biologists do, for example, when they go out in the field. There is a PR part to that: Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  11   �you’re dealing with wild populations that you’re manipulating one way or another and you have to get that kind of information too. In the fisheries area, we used to teach courses in getting information on fisherman usage, which meant core census work. That required a lot of statistical input. We trained a lot of our students with good statistical backgrounds (and this was also true in the terrestrial part of it). But you don’t get any of that anymore. You get a basic understanding of statistics, but not the application of it. RG: No. Now they have a computer program to do it for them anyway. JN: Yeah. Right. Well we used to have three departments: Department of Range Management, Department of Forest Management, and Department of Wildlife Management. The management was basically the application of ecological principles. And that’s one of the reasons that we became so strong in ecology – actually I became the first director of the Ecology Center. RG: That was one of the chief conservations that you got at the summer camp. JN: At the summer camp, right; exactly. One of the interesting things about the summer camp was when Ted Daniels – one of the instructions that we got from Ted was when you get out into the forest, stop and listen to the trees. And he really was serious about this. So we used to sing (how did that go?) – RG: [Singing] “I talk to the trees” – JN: [Singing] “I talk to the trees, but they won’t listen to me.” [Laughing] [Dog barking] BM: Your dog’s enjoying that too! JN: Yeah, I bet! RG: I think that’s what she’s saying! [Laughing] JN: One of the things that we got up at summer camp in the forestry area – and actually I went to work for Ted after summer camp – and that was setting out growth plots in the forest and measuring the growth of trees and this sort of thing. When I was back at the University of Wisconsin, my mentor back there was Phil Woodford who was a plant ecologist and he was doing studies on growth in deciduous forests. I went to work for him and one of the things that did me good, that made a lot of points with Ted, was the fact that I could identify trees in the wintertime! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  12   �JN: Hardwood trees. BM: Right, right; with few clues. JN: With few clues, yeah. BM: So with summer camp, what’s the male-female ratio of your students? JN: Well, it was almost no females at all. All male at that time, yeah. RG: That would be different now. JN: It’s quite a bit different now – 50%. RG: That was something they just weren’t part of it. BM: They weren’t allowed? RG: No, they just – JN: No, they weren’t interested. RG: They would’ve been allowed; they just weren’t interested. I don’t ever remember one, in fact. They just basically weren’t that interested in the fundamentals of wildlife and resource management. BM: Right. RG: Now, they’re probably a very important part of it. I don’t know why that is. I don’t know why that transition happened, but we’ve got some really good people out there now and a lot of the leaders are. BM: Do you remember when that transition did happen, that women were allowed into -- ? JN: Oh, that didn’t occur until the ‘70s. BM: Okay. JN: That we first started getting a few of our women coming in. And they were mostly in the graduate area at that time. RG: Yeah. Well, there were some practical things there too. If it was just one or two women it would have been hard to deal with them up there because it was the barracks. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  13   �JN: When it finally did happen, they did segregate – the women were in the house that used to be the faculty. They housed them there, separate from the men. But that didn’t occur until the ‘70s. And then mostly it was mostly graduate students at that time. RG: I saw it as a non-problem. There were some things they had to take care of to make it work for both, you know, but it wasn’t a problem. BM: Sure, um-hmm. Was there any resistance in the transition? RG: Not that I know of. John might. [End Tape 1: A; begin Tape 1: B] BM: John Neuhold and Ron Goede on summer camp. JN: We didn’t actively go out to recruit women into the program; it was mostly volunteers as the women came in. And actually the motivation for women to get into the field was really somewhat different than for men. RG: It wasn’t hunting and fishing. JN: Yeah, the men were hunters and fisherman, the women were aesthetics – you know, they were in for the aesthetic part. RG: The environmental activists. JN: Yeah, they were, yeah. That was the difference. That’s what you’ll find right now, I think predominately, is that the women in the organization as undergraduates are attracted to it because (we used to say because of the fuzzy bunnies) – RG: Yeah, that’s why they don’t go into fish, because they’re not fuzzy and grow feet. [Laughing] JN: Yeah, not very many of them went into the fisheries – they’re too slimy. BM: Okay, so give us an idea of what it was like in a day at field camp. JN: It was really interesting. You know, I recall some really interesting things about that. We get up in the morning (just like in the military), there were barracks (just like in the military); the first thing was to go into the mess hall and have our breakfast. And our cook at that time was an interesting guy. It was a man that was suffering from Parkinson’s. He was a very good cook, but he was suffering from Parkinson’s. And to watch him prepare food – well, first of all to watch him go into the cook shed and open the place up – it was always padlocked at night (you couldn’t get in there at night) – he’d Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  14   �come along and he would be shaking like that, like crazy, and he’d bang! hit the thing every dang time! He never missed. [Laughing] JN: And then you watch him slicing onions – he’d hold an onion in his hand and bonk, bonk, bonk. He never cut himself! BM: It almost sounds like a Monty Python routine! JN: [Laughing] Yeah, it was! He was an excellent cook; we always had really good meals. And then after breakfast we (as I pointed out earlier) we are divided up into three separate groups and each group went to specific activities for that particular period of time (usually a week). Let’s see, summer camp lasted two months. It didn’t finish up until toward the end of August. Everybody had training in Forest Management, Range Management and in Science [Fisheries] Management. And you progressed on through the different groups every two-week period, or something like that. BM: So like a module you had to go through? JN: It was a module, yeah right. BM: Now wait – you said, “Forest Management, Range Management and Science”? JN: Fisheries Management. BM: Fisheries Management, okay. RG: You know one part that people don’t think about is that two months – for the average student – that’s when you made the money to go to school the rest of the year! BM: Right. RG: So you know, that’s where it really helped to have the GI Bill. JN: Yeah. RG: That’s what they were getting the money for, they could go do that. But once you’ve got away from a lot of the GIs it wasn’t so easy for students to deal with that. BM: Right. That’s a great point because you’re financially set with the GI Bill and you don’t have the pressure of the summer work. Let me ask one more question before this. You went to summer camp once in your entire career as a student? Or did you go to summer camp every summer? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  15   �JN: No, just once. BM: Just once, okay. So then other summers you picked up jobs? JN: Oh yeah. RG: Yeah. BM: So what would be an example of where some of the students would go? JN: Oh, you’d find jobs in the research area. I found a job, for example, in my second year in the Forest Service – I worked on the Fish Lake National Forest as a “Recreation Assistant” which meant that I had a pick honey buckets out of outhouses. I met one of my girlfriends doing that! As she was sitting on the pot! [Laughing] RG: Them were the good old days! “Excuse me!” BM: Oh boy. JN: The experiences we had up at summer camp were really quite interesting. For example, in Forestry you’d be put through a course in field surveying (and that was mostly compass and chain type work). BM: And this is a forestry chain – JN: Yeah, it was a metal chain and compass, plane table work, all that kind of stuff. You went into the kind of rough field surveying that foresters were practicing at that time. BM: So that would be like a crew? JN: Yeah, we’d go out and we’d line up into work crews. Every crew was responsible for creating a report – RG: Measuring the DBHs and so on. JN: Well, that was yeah, when you get out in the forest and do the growth plots, that was all part of that. RG: Do you know what DBH is? BM: Can you tell our audience what that is for those people that don’t know? JN: Diameter at breast high on trees. (Four and one half feet above the ground) The responsibility there was to calculate the board feet that was available for lumber. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  16   �BM: So you not only got the diameter, you also had to get the – JN: The height, yeah. BM: Okay. And how did you do the height at that time? JN: It was basically using an Abney – BM: Okay. JN: Abney level. BM: Yup. When did clinometers come in? It must have been later on. JN: Yeah, we didn’t have them there. BM: Okay. JN: It was all hand work. BM: Okay. JN: In the Range Sciences area – our main job there was we would go out and measure – well first of all identify all the various plants that you’re dealing with like the herbs and grasses (you concentrate a lot on grasses and herbs; forest type material for livestock and wildlife). You’d also do plots measuring; learn how to do plots. You’d do something similar to what you’d do in forestry, but basically it would be much smaller plots, identify the herbage in that particular area and come up with a measure of usage, for example. You’d measure such things as pellet counts, deer, this sort of thing. BM: Was it also the amount of vegetation as far as – JN: Yep; the amount of vegetation. You learn all that kind of stuff. And then in the fisheries area, that was basically going out and collecting fish with various different collecting equipment: seines, electro-shocking. BM: Okay, wait. Tell us how a seine works for those people that are listening that may not -- JN: Well a seine is a big net that you have two people – RG: A guy on each end. JN: A guy on each end and you just simply drag it through the water. Then when you get to an area where you could beach it, you’d come up and you’d count the species of the fishes that you had caught. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  17   �RG: If that was in a stream that wasn’t always – JN: Actually we did a lot of that work. We’d go over to the Bear Lake Bird Refuge and work on that. But in the streams in the Logan River, for example, or Temple Fork we used electric shocking. BM: Okay. RG: I think USU was one of the pioneers in that too. JN: Yeah, we were. BM: Oh really? JN: Yeah, electro-shocking. BM: Could you just tell us how you do that? I’ve seen it, but I’m not that familiar with it. JN: The science of electric shocking has really developed a long way. At that time we were using mostly the red current DC shockers. We had a DC generator – great big long cord that you had two electrodes on (a negative electrode and a positive electrode), and you’d put those in the stream and the fish that were caught in between them would get shocked and they’d come to the surface and you’d scoop them up with a net, put them in a bucket and then you could count them and measure them and do all that sort of stuff. RG: And then put them back. BM: Then how do you not get shocked? RG: You do if you’re not careful! Of course you’re in boots. JN: Oh, I’ll tell you. We used to get the guys on that. RG: Yeah! JN: We had metal buckets. And you’d carry out – if both metal buckets touched the water while you were in the field [laughing], you’d actually get sparks between the fillings in your teeth! RG: You could even see it happening, “Watch this!” [Laughing] RG: Some of those shockers we were using surplus from the government from old auxiliary power units! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  18   �JN: Yeah, one we had was a big old – RG: It would vaporize the room! JN: It was an old man shocker, huge, heavy thing. You couldn’t carry it; it had to be in the back of a pickup truck. You had a great big old wheel (a tenth of a mile of cable, it was a great big, heavy cable like that you know, that you’d carry around). It was a lot of hard work! RG: But now they’ve got it figured out, the conductivity in the water, and you can really fine tune; you can also kill them (whip them around so fast that it breaks their back). And then if you’re using the direct current, the fish will come to the positive electrode, so you can pretty well figure where they’re going to go. In the alternating current they don’t do that. BM: What is the amount of shock based on? Do you have to look at the cubic volume of the water to know how much power to use? JN: Conductivity and the size of the fish, actually. The amount of shock of the animal given depended on its length: the bigger it is the more shock that it gets. RG: The littler ones are harder to shock. JN: And of course, if you were carrying two buckets and you put them – the amount of shock you got was determined between the distance between those two buckets – which meant that it was getting a hell of a lot more than the fish were getting. RG: Yeah. BM: It sounds like there is a bit of a rite of passage here with the fisheries. JN: It was, yeah! It really was. You learned a lot. RG: Well, you could even use that a lot of times if people were upset; the public was upset about – they’d say “There’s not enough fish in the Logan River, you guys got to put more in….” You would invite them out to watch you shock and they would see then the fish just boiling out of there, you know. And that’s all you would need and they would understand, the fish are out there they just aren’t catching them. BM: That’s a great visual. Now were you also looking at the invertebrate population, in terms of fish? JN: Oh yeah! Yeah, that was the other thing. We would have invertebrate collecting devices that you’d put out in the stream or in a lake. We had the Kemmerer Samplers that you’d – RG: Water sampler. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  19   �JN: Water samplers. BM: Now what is that? JN: It’s a water sampler that you could sample water at different depths. And then you’d put them through a (at that time we had what we referred to as the “Hatch chemical kit”) – RG: They still use them. JN: Still use them. BM: H-A-T-C-H isn’t it? Hatch kit. RG: Yeah. JN: We’d measure hardness or acidity, total dissolve solids. You know, all of these sorts of things. BM: A lot of chemical analysis of the water? JN: Right. Then we had the Peterson bridge – you’d scoop up a part of the bottom and bring it up to the surface and stick it through screens, and then measure the invertebrates that you picked up (mostly midge larvae). RG: The Kemmerer water bottle he’s talking about is interesting to go to Bear Lake, you can drop it down to a given depth and send the brass messenger down and it trips it and you can take a core at that point. And then you can take it up and analyze the water chemistry from that depth. BM: So it stays sealed all the way down until you are at your depth that you want to take a sample from? RG: Yeah. BM: And then you trigger to open it, catches that – RG: Yeah, that trigger opens it and then you start pulling up and it closes it down. BM: Okay. RG: There’s a lot of those on the bottom of the lake! [Laughing, and some inaudible comments] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  20   �RG: Yeah, that’s when you realize you have to put a knot on this end so the brass messenger goes out this way. It’s really funny when you’ll hear something go “boop” and then you’re, “uh-oh.” [Laughing] JN: Then the other thing that we sampled were the invertebrates in streams. And that was basically using nets (stream nets); you’d kick up the bottom and then measure the mayflies and the caddis flies, stoneflies and this sort of thing; midges. RG: And so you’d get a square you’d put a thing like a square, then you’d kick it up and gather what’s ever there so you could tell how much there is per square foot. BM: So somebody must be kicking upstream – RG: Yeah, or a lot of times you can just put – in a stream it’s easier because you can put it out there like that and just kick. BM: Right and it moves it right into your net then. Okay. JN: Yeah. RG: Yeah. JN: Those were all part of the mechanics of operating in the field that we were teaching then. This sort of thing is not being taught anymore. BM: Um-hmm. RG: Bill Sigler – the term I remember him using is that it teaches you, you have a “bag of tricks” that at least makes you look like you know what you’re doing. [Laughing] RG: Because a lot of times, those techniques are fine-tuned when you go to work for an agency or you find out what they’re using and you get more advice, you know. But if you go out there not knowing anything – actually it was the electro-shocking that got me the job in Missouri. I knew a lot about it because we did so much of it. JN: We did so much of it here, yeah. RG: I had my arms strained out like this several times! [Laughing] BM: So you went back there and then introduced them to that technology, as a student? RG: They had some technology for it, but they really didn’t understand much about it and so I introduced them. When I went to Leetown they had equipment that they didn’t know how Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  21   �to use, for collecting parasites, you know. They had an electric seine there and I set that whole thing up so they could collect fish to do the parasites studies. BM: It sounds tremendously hands-on as far as the kinds of tools and techniques and “bag of tricks” (as Bill Sigler referred to it). RG: Yeah. Those are we’d go set nets at Hyrum or something or the old Pelican pond out here. And you did learn your basic trade that way. JN: Yeah, that was one of the other collecting devices in fisheries that we had was the gill nets. RG: Yeah. JN: We used a lot of gill nets and – RG: Everybody hated them though. BM: Because? RG: They’re a lot of work. JN: They’re a lot of work. RG: Especially if you get any of the yellow perch or something like that. JN: Get any yellow perch or bullheads, or catfish. BM: Tell us why they were a lot of work. JN: Because of the spines. RG: Spines, and those ctenoid scales. Once they get into the net they’re awful to get out. You have to pick those nets and there’s also lots of them. You might have 1,000 fish there, you know, that you just picked up in a net. And you’ve got to take every one of those out and they don’t come out easy because of the spines get tangled up in the net. BM: Hmm. RG: I remember the guys in Schofield, not Schofield, Strawberry doing all that work at Strawberry they found one of the chubs that they were working on. Bud Phelps said, “Best way to pick the net is to lay it out in the road and drive over it in the truck a few times and then shake them off.” [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  22   �JN: Yeah. That works. BM: So you have these modules that each of the groups is rotating through so they get experience in all the disciplines. JN: Yeah, all around. BM: At the end of one module then, are you putting that together in terms of looking at the health of the fisheries? Are you looking at the data and making assumptions on what we’re finding? JN: Yeah. Usually you’d have to write a paper – everybody had to write a paper on what you’d learned in that particular module. RG: Yeah. And then you’d do things like age and growth, you know and measure the annual line in the scales and measure that and project that to the length. JN: One of the other techniques that we used in fisheries that we were introduced there was using rotenone to sample (actually it was sampling), but actually we became pretty knowledgeable about using it to reclaim lake populations. RG: We did that for a little while with toxifine too. JN: We toxifine, yeah -- toxifine lasted too long in alkaline waters and they couldn’t really rehabilitate the waters. BM: Okay. Help me understand the application of rotenone: how you prepare it and how you apply it. JN: Rotenone, you know, is a powder made from Derris root, Amazon basin. RG: They use it a lot to spray in gardens and stuff. BM: Right. JN: We used to use the powder rope – we’d get big sacks of it and then it wasn’t very easily emulsified, so you’d have to mix it up in water and then spread it out, usually with a hose of some kind. RG: It was dangerous for the user. JN: It was really dangerous for the user. Later on they came up with an emulsifiable form of it. And we did some of the first big reclamation projects in the United States here what we learned. Bill McConnell and I did that. What we learned in school, using rotenone. Navajo Lake and Panguitch Lake were two of the first ones. Diamond Lake in Oregon was one of the first ones that was built, and I think we were the second and third one. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  23   �RG: And then we did it at Strawberry and that was – JN: Oh, that was the biggest one. RG: That was the biggest one ever. That was a million and a half pounds of rotenone. BM: And so you are putting this as a liquid into the water, or spraying a powder? You’re putting it as a liquid? RG: Well, it depends. You can get it as a liquid. They started using it; they developed a method for us to use in Strawberry, we did. Using the rotenone; you’re sucking the powder up into and then it’s mixing and you can spray it. And then you would do it when the lake is stratified too. The limnology was important: understanding stratification, you know, so you wouldn’t have to treat the whole reservoir, you could treat the part where the fish were. BM: Sure, that makes sense. RG: Take advantage of some kind of knowledge of that lake and the chemistry involved in those strata. And that was a million and a half – we had people come from all over the world (most of them were from around the country; Michigan sent several people to work through the whole project because they wanted to see it done). BM: So what happens to that rotenone then? It goes into the water column – JN: It disperses pretty well, actually. RG: And you can detox it with potassium permanganate. JN: Yeah, you can detox it. The way it works on the animal is it constricts the blood vessels in the gills and they suffocate. As a matter of fact, it also does that to humans. If you get it into the eyes, for example, it will constrict the blood supply to the eyes and you become temporarily blind. RG: When they did that up Strawberry on Schofield then, almost all the crews were blinded. And they didn’t know that then and all at once, nobody could see, you know. They ended up setting up a field station and they had to give them all cortisone shots. JN: Cortisone shots, yeah. RG: To help. But it scared the hell out of all of them. BM: Oh, I bet. RG: Then I took that when we did the big million and half pounds at Strawberry, I told them “You guys at Schofield – that was an afternoon – we’re talking about two weeks out there Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  24   �on Strawberry.” And I said, “The people are not going to be able to do that.” And so I said, “I would insist that they take care of the personnel, too.” And so they spent $100,000 on the protection for the personnel. BM: So what kind of protection did they have? RG: Gas masks and breathing devices, you know. And organizing so that people were only out there a short time, you know. So I was in charge of that whole safety program for that whole thing. JN: The first time that happened to me was down in Panguitch Lake. I had a student from the University of Utah that was on my crew and he got blinded. His name was Robert E. Lee, incidentally! He actually became a colonel in the Air Force. He was an interesting guy. You know the fish that we killed, they were edible – you could eat them, it was not dangerous to eat them. So we’d pick up the biggest trout, for example, and take them back to camp and cook them up and Robert cooked his up in neatsfoot  oil! [Laughing] But it tasted alright! [Laughing] BM: So the fish are edible, but – RG: Well the FDA maintained that they weren’t, so it became illegal for us to do that. BM: So what’s happening then is these fish are coming to the surface, they’re suffocating and coming to the surface, and then you are counting? You are – RG: Well, yeah you do. You know the [inaudible] massive load of fish. BM: Yeah. RG: You do some sampling and – JN: The idea was to get rid of all the fish in the area. BM: Right. RG: Yeah. I was kind of always against that. I fought that project in the staff meeting because I told him I don’t like using poison on that grand of scale – because you’re killing everything. JN: Yeah, you kill the invertebrates as well. RG: I thought that was too heavy handed. BM: What did the water surface look like when this started to take effect? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  25   �JN: A lot of white bellies. RG: Yeah, and of course there’s also going to be a huge stink. BM: Yeah. RG: Pelicans and fish-eating birds (particularly pelican), they would get so many fish they couldn’t get out of the water. They’d fly off and then splash down again. It was really funny to watch them try to get off the water. BM: Holy smokes. RG: You had to make sure people – we had quite a force going around making sure people weren’t taking them up and eating them. BM: Right. RG: We had cornered the entire world market on rotenone. A lot of the Derris that grows in South America – they’re taking a lot of those out and putting in coke plants. So it was getting harder and harder to get that and it was quite a job to get that much rotenone. BM: Now tell me one more time the name of the plant that rotenone comes from? JN: Derris root. RG: Derris root. BM: How do you spell that? JN: D-E-R-R-I-S. BM: Okay. [Derris is a genus name; Derris elliptica from the tropical and subtropical climates was used to derive Rotenone.] JN: These are all techniques that we learned in summer camp, actually when you get right down to it. It was carried on into the profession by the students that went through those programs. RG: Yeah, but a lot of those were wrong and they’d just refine them so they would understand more how to fine-tune the program and actually use what you know. Taking out, you know, mosquitoes with a hammer or something like that. BM: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  26   �JN: Actually the summer camp was really very interesting: in addition to all of these techniques that you learned, you developed a real fellowship with your fellow students. We’re in the field together, you slept together, you ate together; all of that sort of thing. RG: Camaraderie in a lot of ways. JN: You made life-long lasting friendships, actually which was very useful. We also had a lot of hijinx that went on. One that I remember particularly, we had one Japanese student (a guy by the name of Min Herinaca [spelled phonetically]. (He ended up getting his doctorate, and I think he’s retired as a professor up at University of Idaho now.) But anyhow, we had these mummy bags that we were sleeping in and I remember the Bud Phelps and two or three other guys got together and it was time to get up. Min was kind of reluctant to get out of bed in the morning and he was always snuggled down inside his sleeping bag. So we grabbed his sleeping bag and pulled off to the side and drop it like that (of course, two other guys would catch him) and he’d be going inside his bag like that! [Laughing] It’s amazing that he wouldn’t rip it out! [Laughing] JN: And the other thing is that we had . . .Yale University would bring their geology classes out and we would put them during summer camp in that area. Of course during the weekends – those poor guys they were out working all the time (the Yale guys were) – and our boys would go downtown to Delmar [bar in Logan, Utah] and get drunk! And they would come back up and in the middle of the night they would singing “bah, bah black sheep, have you any wool for me?” [Singing and laughing] Serenading the Yale boys! BM: Well you know, as far as you mentioned, all that stuff goes on and it does create fellowship and collegiality. And from what I’ve heard from some other folks about field camp is those are lifelong colleagues and lifelong friendships in many cases. JN: Yeah, absolutely. BM: Alright. Do you have one in particular that you can remember? JN: Life long fellowships? Bill McConnell and me. JN: Bill McConnell and I, we became like brothers, actually. We went to work for the Division of Wildlife – or the Fish and Game Department at that time. RG: That was the second and third PhD for USU. JN: Yeah. Yeah Bill was the second – Kenny Wolf was the first. RG: Wolf, I got to know real well when I was at Leetown. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  27   �JN: Kenny became a world-class virologist and was the “father” actually of fish virology. JN: Yeah. He was the first, and Bill McConnell was the second and I was the third PhD out of Fish and Wildlife. RG: Ken was also the one that figured out the life cycle of whirling disease. JN: Right. Nobody believed him! RG: But we’re not talking about just in Wildlife: that was number one, two, three, and four for the whole university. BM: Oh! RG: That was the beginning of the PhD programs. JN: Yeah. BM: Okay. RG: They were just as college for a while. JN: The Wildlife Department actually started the PhD programs in the university. BM: That’s right. What was your PhD in? JN: It was in Aquatic Ecology, basically: Aquatic Toxicology. BM: Studying? JN: It was studying florid effects on fish. That was mine. Bill McConnell’s PhD was on stream periphyton. BM: What’s that? JN: Stream algae. BM: Okay. JN: And Kenny Wolf’s was – RG: Blue sac. JN: Blue sac disease in fish. BM: And what is that disease? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  28   �RG: He did a lot of that work for White’s trout farm. JN: Yeah. RG: It’s tied up more with – JN: It’s a bacterial disease. RG: Well, but no. No, it’s ammonia and low circulation in the eggs. JN: Oh, yeah; it’s secondary bacterial infections. RG: Yeah, you got the – and it’s blue; the egg sac is blue. BM: Okay. RG: It took a long time before we figured it out. A lot of it was just short-circuiting the eggs while they were being incubated. Some of them weren’t all getting water. BM: And what was the source of that? RG: Mostly ammonia was actually part of the metabolism of the fish – JN: Metabolism of the eggs themselves. BM: Okay. RG: But the circulation was so poor that it would be high and up – [End Tape 1: B; begin Tape 2:A] RG: So anyway, like the two week intensive training that I gave the hatchery people. They were there for two weeks – through the weekends, you know. We went straight through because I didn’t want to send them back, way out all over the state, that’s too much money. So, on Sunday we would have a picnic or something you know. But I noticed that over the years – I took about 12 or 13 of them at a time, you know. And then we’d do it until we had them all. So we were about a dozen groups that I would have for two weeks. But I noticed that every time, after that when you’d have a section-wide or division-wide meeting at Camp Williams or whatever, those guys were hanging out together. And that’s part of that life-long – BM: Right. RG: It’s just not the fact that you took the group, but it’s a fairly intense thing. They live together, they work together, they slept together, have a good time together, you know. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  29   �BM: Um-hmm. Right. RG: So it takes more than just, like up here just taking a class with somebody. BM: Um-hmm. RG: That’s really important, I think. JN: That was one of the really great benefits about summer camp, I thought. Like I say, we have lifelong friendships that unfortunately we keep burying now. One of the things that stemmed out of it was our Mossback group. Actually our peers that we’ve worked together for all these many years, but the summer camp together (a lot of us did) and ended up carrying out in our so-called Mossback group. RG: We were the ones that did the transition from empirical wisdom to science. JN: Yeah. BM: Do you want to explain that? RG: A lot of the empirical wisdom, you just kind of learn on the job from you know, a lot of them were pretty good at that. The people had a lot of good motivation and so forth, but they didn’t have that kind of training. The professionals went from the good ol’ boys that you hired that just knew what the animals in Logan were, to guys who were professionally trained and were going to use all these new procedures and methods and assessments. And all that becomes part of the interpretive stuff that’s brought up all the way through the legislature. BM: Um-hmm. RG: You know, and a way to keep track and compare and start to develop these data bases. And that was – John and Bill probably started that. They’re the ones that kicked that off. But that whole bunch then became that – I call it the “vanguard” for that transition. I also called it – in that Mossback book, I called it “vanguards of a young profession;” because it was very much a young field. JN: After World War II it was. BM: Now, tell us a little bit about the “Mossback” group because I think they are crossreferenced at Special Collections, or will be. RG: Yeah, they have a copy of that book. I gave that to Brad [Cole] [USU Special Collections & Archives: 925 G551] BM: So the Mossbacks are…..doesn’t sound like foresters. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  30   �RG: No. JN: No, it was actually mostly fishery people. RG: Yeah, it’s basically something that’s been around long enough that it’s got moss growing on its back! JN: We had some few other people come in. RG: They are still peers. JN: Yeah Doug Day was a peer. I think he did one year of work up here at Utah State, and he got his degrees down at University of Utah. And the other guy we brought in was Bob Benke, who was actually University of California-bred. RG: And Bob Wiley. JN: Bob Wiley, who was University of Wyoming-bred. But they were peers and they were people that we worked with. RG: They were working on Flaming Gorge, and all these things, where we shared the waters, you know: Flaming Gorge, Lake Powell, a lot of interstate waters. I remember those kind of became part of your peer group. JN: Jack Jensen was the other one too. RG: Jack was actually one. JN: He was a Penn Stater. RG: You’ll enjoy talking to Jack. He’s just a first-class guy. BM: I’m looking forward to it. What about, you know? What field camp faces through the decades with so many other people that have talked about it are challenges. And keeping in form, you mentioned one in terms of the GI Bill being so beneficial to supporting, and so that pressure for earning money that summer wasn’t there. Were there other challenges with you? I mean how did they handle families? If people came in that had wives or children? JN: Oh. Well here at the university we had temporary housing. BM: JN: Okay. They were actually military buildings that were – actually Utah State was known for one time as the “West Point of the West.” We had a huge ROTC group here. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  31   �RG: The student housing was called “Morning Sickness Row.” JN: Yeah. [Laughing] JN: It was! Yeah – RG: It was “Morning Sickness Row”! “We’re over in Morning Sickness Row…” JN: But the temporary buildings – they’re all gone now, but – BM: Where were those located? JN: Where the Ag Sciences building is right now – BM: Um-hmm. JN: That area. RG: They used to be over where the over where the Triads [married student housing, now called Aggie Village] are too, weren’t they? JN: No. That was all farm land. RG: Yeah, that’s right. JN: And an airport. We had an airport up here when I first came out here. BM: So what did these buildings look like? JN: Well, have you seen those temporary military barracks? We also had Quonset huts were part of it. RG: Quonsets. JN: We had a trailer park that – RG: They weren’t very plush. JN: Yeah, they weren’t very plush, but they were old military trailers. And then we had two story buildings that were divided up into apartments. When Ruth and I came out here (we were married when we came out here), we rented an apartment in one of those – an upstairs apartment. It was a one bedroom (I don’t think there were any two bedrooms, there was only one bedroom ones), and a combination living room/dining room, and a bathroom and that was it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  32   �BM: You’re up in summer camp for two months and Ruth is in town? JN: I wasn’t married at that time. BM: Okay. JN: She came later. I told you about when I first came out here in 1950 and came across a dirt road down Laketown Canyon to Bear Lake. I got this spiritual experience going through the canyon. Two years later I brought my new bride down the same way: down through Laketown canyon. And it was in January, and the lake was frozen, there was snow all around it, you know. And we came down into the bottom of the Logan Canyon and came to a sign that says, “You are now entering Logan: a town designed for living.” And Ruth said, “Where’s the town? Where’s the town?” [Laughing] JN: I took her over to the Quonset, which was just upside and said, “This is our apartment.” And she said, “Well where’s the town?” [Laughing] JN: I finally took her downtown and she was so delighted to see that there was a drugstore down there. RG: Only one: Lowcost. JN: Lowcost, yeah! BM: How big was Logan at that time? JN: Oh, only about 8,000 people, I think. Something like that. RG: Yeah, the whole valley was about 30,000. JN: Well at that time, no, the valley was even less than that! It was, I think it was 16,000 people. RG: Strictly rural. BM: Wow. JN: Strictly rural, yeah. [Stop and start recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  33   �JN: Fieldwork that went on, we’d have to get permission from the Ranger. So the Ranger would work with us, for example. BM: This is the Ranger on the Logan District? JN: The Logan District, right. BM: Okay. JN: Let’s see, we also – I can’t remember that we had any Fish and Game people involved at that time. No, not at that time. It was mostly the Forest Service. And some of our field trips took us out into Bureau of Land Management land, and we’d have the BLM Ranger talk to us, give us some of the umbrella-sort of experiences. BM: And where did you go? JN: Well, for the Forest Service we stayed here in the Cache. BM: Um-hmm. JN: A lot of the Fish and Game work we went down to the Bear River Bird Refuge – we did a lot of work down there on birds and also on fish. Bureau of Land Management was over in Rich County, basically. We’d get into that and we’d have (I can’t recall the names of the people that we had involved down there at that time). Most of our fieldwork was done locally. We didn’t go off on any long distance – a lot of that came later. At the university in our junior and senior years, especially senior year, we organized into what we referred to as “senior field trips.” These were usually two week affairs that we went through the west. We’d go – two of them that I was involved in as a student – we went into the Columbia River basin, for example, stayed at Oregon State, Northern California, southern Washington and Oregon; spent our time there looking at salmon fisheries and all this sort of stuff. The second one that we went into the desert. We went down into the Grand Canyon area, Arizona, New Mexico, desert big game range. It was mostly a big game thing. This was the wildlife thing. The foresters also had similar trips, as did the range management people. But that also stopped after a while; they stopped doing that. I remember after I joined the faculty I took several of them out on field trips myself. You know, it always ended up being a big logistic problems because you had to find places to stay and feed your troops kind of stuff. RG: Even that sort of thing, I think, was probably impacted to a certain extent by the GI Bill. BM: How so? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  34   �RG: Because even two weeks was not an easy thing for somebody that was having to work just to stay in school. BM: Right. JN: Yeah. RG: And I think once the GI Bill petered out, that was pretty much what stopped it. JN: That pretty well stopped that kind of stuff, yeah. BM: Well and it also sounds like field camp was all of the departments together – JN: Yeah, it was. RG: Yeah. BM: And these senior field trips were more separated by your specialties. JN: They were separated, yeah. BM: Okay. JN: Into your specialty areas, yeah. Up here in the Cache, a lot of our work was centered on what became the school forest later on. And actually I remember when I went to work after summer camp, I went to work for Dr. Daniels and Ray Moore, my two team leaders were Sterling Rickman and (I can’t remember his name, he was from Arkansas) [Sam Jackson]. Anyhow, our job was basically to go out and lay out growth plots. We did chain and compass work with that. And we laid out a grid of growth plots that became the basis for growth on the forest. Later on they would revisit these plots every year to see what the changes in growth were and the species composition, and so on. And that was really very interesting work for me. BM: And you’re getting long-term information. JN: And long-term information that the school really benefit – or the research done by the Forestry Department - actually benefited from. I do remember that we had a campout – we didn’t have cabins or anything to stay in, so we stayed in tents – and I became very constipated and developed a severe case of bleeding hemorrhoids. BM: Oof! RG: It was the pain in the ass! JN: Yeah, it was a pain in the ass. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  35   �[Laughing] [Omitted from transcript personal information] BM: Well one other thing that you haven’t mentioned is Benchmark Hill. Was this part of your era? JN: Yeah, that’s where we did a lot of our surveying work. BM: Right. JN: That’s why it was called “Benchmark Hill.” We learned about the U.S. Geological Service benchmark system. And we did have a benchmark there. Then we had to locate benchmarks on the rest of the forest; that was part of our exercise. That’s where we also found a lot of rattlesnakes. That was “Rattlesnake Hill” as far as I was concerned. The first three rattlesnakes I ever saw in the state of Utah, I stepped on…before I saw them! BM: Yeah. JN: Fortunately I was never bit. BM: Oh! RG: They were still taking courses in surveying too, weren’t they? JN: Yeah, that was surveying courses. RG: You’d take actually a course in surveying. JN: Yeah, that was after. RG: After. JN: No, no, no. That was – I transferred from the University of Wisconsin, so I had my surveying back there. But you took your surveying here as a freshman and a sophomore, before summer camp. RG: Yeah. I took mine at Nebraska. JN: Yeah. RG: Everybody had benchmarks to work with. BM: You know, it sounds like (and you mentioned before) what an experience this was in terms of eating, sleeping and dreaming together and working hard. I mean I bet there were some long hours. RG: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  36   �JN: There were long hours. It was hard work, there were long hours, yeah. RG: But you didn’t mind it; I didn’t mind it. You’d get tired, but you had fun doing it. Just a great experience. JN: Oh, Sam Jackson was the other guy’s name: Sam Jackson and Sterling Rickman. Sterling Rickman died, I think two years after we graduated from the University, from the college. And Sam Jackson became some kind of a big shot down in Arkansas. I think he became the director of the Arkansas Department of Fish and Game. BM: Hmm. Well when you think of students today that are graduating in these fields (you know, all the departments within Natural Resources), what are they missing by not having something like a field camp experience? JN: Well one of the things I think they’re missing is the camaraderie; field experience, the technology and techniques. This is the sort of thing now they have to learn on the job, after they get hired. RG: We also, in those days, we didn’t have such thing as work study students. You helped your colleagues. JN: Oh yeah! RG: Otherwise, you were dead in the water. Everybody would just go out and go help set nets, or go help electro-shock or work with bottom samples. I learned more from those things than I did from my own study. And they would help me to. BM: So you weren’t getting paid for it, but it was hands-on learning? RG: Yeah. BM: That you could do with somebody doing a research project? RG: Yeah and none of you could do it because you’re all needed, so somebody’s got to hold the other end of the seine, or something like that. BM: Right, right. RG: If you don’t have – JN: And that was all volunteer. RG: Yeah. JN: Everybody volunteered to help everybody else. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  37   �RG: A lot of times you would end up – if you caught a bunch of fish – you’d have a big barbecue up the canyon or something like that. JN: Send [?] from Logan to Wyoming to bring a keg of beer back. RG: A keg of beer, yeah! [Laughing] JN: And the wives would make potato salad, and all that kind of stuff, and we would have a great, big blastoff. RG: It would often be last minute a lot of times because you didn’t plan it because you didn’t know you were going to have those fish always. BM: Right, right. RG: I don’t know whether I’m not that aware of it anymore because I’m not that involved up here anymore, but I don’t think it’s there; I don’t hear it, I don’t sense it. JN: I’ve got that impression. I’ve got the same impression that there isn’t that same kind of camaraderie among our graduate students, for example, as it used to be. Or among the faculty; the faculty have basically become isolated in their own area of endeavor, you know, and they don’t seem to want to get out of it for some reason. RG: They’ll all have lunch at the Skyroom [USU campus restaurant] or something, you know. But we used to have lunch right here and everybody was invited you know. JN: Yeah. Cases of glicksteich [unsure of spelling]. BM: What is that? JN: Malt liquor! RG: Malt liquor. It was pretty strong stuff. It came in about this size. BM: Well it sounds like the camaraderie was field oriented, versus being office or building, or Skyroom oriented, as you’re saying. JN: Well it was and it wasn’t. After I became a faculty member, I used to have a graduate student bull pen where all my graduate students would be housed together. And that sort of a thing went on after I graduated as a student and became a faculty member. And those were interesting. Every morning I would go down and sit with the graduate students and we would just talk about things at random. We kind of learned a hell of a lot from each other. I learned a lot as a faculty member too. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  38   �RG: [inaudible] good reason. JN: Yeah. The one thing that impressed me about that whole thing is I was the only Democrat in the whole bunch and all my students were Republicans. [Laughing] RG: Well they had the old cubicles there – JN: Oh yeah, in the old building. RG: In the old forestry building. JN: That was a bull pen. RG: Where the parking thing is out on the – what is that street? 8th? BM: Or 7th? RG: 7th? BM: Um-hmm. 7th North. RG: Yeah that was where – then you also had the guy you walk up the street – the old College Bluebird. That’s where everybody had coffee. BM: Where was that? RG: It was basically where the LDS Institute is up there. BM: Okay. JN: Right on that corner. BM: So on the corner of 8th East and 7th North, at that light? In from there? JN: Yeah. RG: Yeah. JN: Right across from the Student Center. RG: And that’s where all the non-Mormons were. BM: The College Bluebird? So this is the Bluebird Restaurant? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  39   �JN: Yeah. RG: It was the same logo – JN: It was owned by the same people. RG: -- same people. Everybody ate lunch there; you had coffee there. That’s where you’d go see Bill Sigler. JN: Yeah. BM: Huh. RG: A lot of big conversations sitting – you could also smoke there then. JN: Yeah, no smoking. Well, no actually we were allowed to smoke in the buildings at that time, yeah. A faculty member could smoke in their own offices; that’s what it boiled down to. Students always went outside to smoke. BM: If you wanted to change that and you look at what we have now, because I think what you’re sharing is very similar to what many other people talk about. If you wanted to bring back or move ahead with increasing that feeling of camaraderie and some of the benefits that were in these other programs – if you ran the world, what would you do differently? What would you suggest for that, if I can ask? RG: Well there’s one thing that I’ve been thinking about just recently, a couple of things that Obama has actually suggested: volunteer service where you got credits (like the GI’s did for the GI Bill, you know) to go to college and that sort of thing. I think that’s one of the serious things that’s missing. We don’t have that kind of shared experience anymore in this country. We all had a do it or something like that, or the ones that did do it got some kind of reward for doing. So they had that sense of group and also some tangible reward for going to college so they could do things like this. JN: The culture has changed substantially though. Personally, I would like to see something like the CCC started again. I think what Ron is talking about – not necessarily a volunteer (you get paid for it, you get paid poorly), but you do get that kind of experience. RG: I suppose like the Peace Corps and those types of things. JN: Like the Peace Corps. You know, there are a variety of things like that. But boy, our parks and our Forest Service facilities, and all of these things are in sore need of attention; financial attention of one sort or another, and by George this administration could create a CCC to put people to work in these areas. RG: I think that’s kind of what he has in mind. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  40   �JN: I sure hope so, that’s what he has in mind. RG: He made quite a play with that. JN: Yeah. BM: Well, and even being paid poorly in those positions, for many people, being paid at all may be very important in the next few years. JN: Absolutely! Yeah, sure. BM: And being able to use those skills. RG: But you know, like I say, I really don’t think that stuff would have been at all available if it hadn’t been for the GI Bill. JN: Yeah, I agree. RG: In fact, after the GI Bill dried up, that was the end of it. BM: And when did that dry up? When was that over? JN: In the ‘70s, with Vietnam, yeah. Well, you could still get credit for college in the military (right now you can get it now), but it’s not like it used to be. It used to be you could get the full ride and they paid you a salary and everything. RG: Yeah, but in those days, during the Second World War, everybody was in. JN: Yeah. RG: Everybody. I mean, you were classified, you had a draft classification. When I was 18 I got my draft card. JN: There were two programs that were started. One was the education program on the GI Bill. It was a really great program because it was a full-ride program: you got a salary, they paid your tuition, they bought your books; they bought any fees for the college, and so on. It didn’t cost you a penny. You could go on through and get your education that way. And then they offered one other thing they called 52-20. And you’d get $20 for 52 weeks, and you didn’t have to go to school for it. However, if you took advantage of that you couldn’t take advantage of the GI Bill in college. So a lot of the people that didn’t want to get an education, they went to 52-20. RG: And a lot of them that did get it wouldn’t have if it hadn’t been for the GI Bill. JN: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  41   �BM: Well any closing thoughts that we have on your experience? Personally or professionally? JN: I had a great life. That’s all I can say. I’m 80 years old now, and I really enjoyed just about every minute. Well, there were some things that I would’ve done differently I suspect. I got into University Administration; in retrospect I would have been happier, I suppose, if I’d have stayed as a teaching and research professor. BM: The administration you’re talking about is the Ecology Center? JN: It was the Ecology Center, yeah. And of course I became Associate Dean and all that sort of stuff. And dealing with people issues mostly. Of course I did a lot on the national scene: I became Director of Ecosystem Analysis at the National Science Foundation for a couple of years. Then became Director of the Institute of Ecology for four or five years, I think, I was involved in that. And that was TIE – it was basically environmental activism and that sort of thing. BM: And what is T-I-E? JN: The Institute of Ecology. BM: The Institute of Ecology, okay. RG: That’s the one that Art Hasler had. JN: Yeah, Art Hasler was the first director of it and I took over from him. Art Hasler was a BYU graduate, became professor of limnology in Aquatic Sciences at the University of Wisconsin and a long time professor in that area. He managed to establish a really good aquatic program there. It’s still going pretty strong. RG: I think that stuff thought, I could echo that, but I think a lot of it had to do with that camaraderie though. Lifelong peers and peer group type of associations and great friends. You fought a lot of the good, hard battles together, you know. I always like to say back to back, you know. That’s just hard to replace. And I really don’t see that happening – not in the same sense – not lifelong. I’ve felt that way for some time, that we don’t have that sort of thing even available in this country anymore. BM: So the opportunity doesn’t even exist? RG: Yeah. There is no place – service used to be one of the big equalizers. Everybody grew up doing service. JN: One of the faculty members – he and I stay in close email contact with each other – Jack Schulz (and Joann Schulz). They had a similar experience at the University of Michigan. They have a group that they call “les voyageurs” that is basically they take the name from the French explorers in the area. They get together every year. In the wintertime they do Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  42   �snow shoeing. Long treks in the summertime they get together, as a group; the same sort of a thing that we had then. It’s a camaraderie that started at the University of Michigan and has lasted. Michigan State University had a summer camp at Gull Lake in Michigan. And those people, as I understand it, do pretty much the same thing that we’re doing here – in the camaraderie. But these are all people from back post-World War II. A lot of them are dead or retired and/or dead now. But that sort of thing is missing; I agree with Ron completely it is missing. You don’t see the same thing happening. Do you see it going up at the university? [End recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Neuhold  and  Ron  Goede     Page  43   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/36">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/36</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-11-12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John Neuhold and Ron Goede interview, 22 February 2009, and transcript Description An account of the resource John Neuhold and Ron Goede discuss their experiences at the Utah State University Summer Camp (and the skills and camaraderie they gained there) and other experiences in their education, including those with the GI Bill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Goede, Ronald W., 1934- Neuhold, John M. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Goede, Ronald W., 1934---Interviews Neuhold, John M.--Interviews Utah State University--Faculty--Interviews Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp United States. Montgomery G.I. Bill Veterans--Education--Utah--Logan Forestry schools and education--United States Utah. Division of Wildlife Resources--Officials and employees--Training Ecology--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Forests and forestry--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Forest management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management-Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon Fishery management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon Rotenone--Utah Goede, Ronald W., 1934---Friends and associates Neuhold, John M.--Friends and associates Mossbacks (Club) Logan (Utah)--History Utah State University--Students--Anecdotes College teachers--Utah--Logan--Interviews Utah State University. Forestry Dept.--Research Ecology--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Forests and forestry--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Forest management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Fishery management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon Voluntarism Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 2000-2009 20th century 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 2 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx3fd2RonGoedeJohnNeuhold Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 22 February 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-02-22 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/5d42e9411fe17f9fd3872bea921a6da6.mp3 3cebf608b6ac4373b04f76c89d8ed02d https://highway89.org/files/original/73a6931bb0b2e17df2147c0682e319b9.pdf d833298321ba77377d1b2e6270e11701 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Janet Quinney Lawson Place of Interview: Ms. Lawson’s home; Salt Lake City, Utah Date of Interview: April 28, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole and Barbara Middleton Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Brad Cole, February 2009; Randy Williams, 25 February 2009 and 14 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at her family’s summer home at Bear Lake and at family members’ homes in Cache Valley, Utah. She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah and in Cache Valley and Bear Lake. Reference:   BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JL = Janet Quinney Lawson NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BM: [This is Barbara Middleton of the] Natural Resources at Utah State University. [I am] here with Brad Cole. Cole [interviewer] is the Director of Special Collections at USU Libraries. And we are here with Janet Quinney Lawson in her home in Salt Lake City, on a beautiful spring day. This is Monday, April 28th [2008] and it’s about 2-2:15 in the afternoon. So Janet, if you would please say your full name and when and where you were born. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  1   �JL: My full name is Janet Quinney Lawson. And I was born here in 1922 at the LDS Hospital, as I recall. BM: In Salt Lake City? JL: Uh-huh. I guess I was born there. BM: Can I ask you, just to start off would you be willing to share the earliest memories of your father? JL: Yeah, I was kind of scared of him! He was not a child’s best friend or “daddy.” He was stern and he lived and he made you kind of tow the mark. As I grew older I began to appreciate him. He was a superman. I used to run the rivers with him. BC: What was his name? JL: My father? BC: Yes. JL: S. J. Quinney. Seymour Joseph Quinney. BM: And running rivers – what kind of rivers are we talking about? JL: Oh! Colorado and Hell’s Canyon and all the rivers of the west. We used to run them in row boats. It was great fun; I loved it. And we would do that and pull out wherever we pulled out. I know I went down the river when I was – gosh, I guess six months or more pregnant with Peter (my youngest son). But I didn’t tell Dad and I wore, you know a blouse that hung out. And he didn’t even [know]. He wondered, I think he said, on occasions. But boy when I told him driving out of Preston, poor father! It was a real blow! Now he wanted to know if Fred knew, and I said, “Well of course.” “Did your mother know?” and I said, “Yes.” “Did she approve?” I said, “Sure she did, she thought I was alright to do that.” And I loved it! It was great fun and I didn’t have any problem. We went down Hell’s Canyon and came out at Preston maybe? BC: Maybe Lewiston area? JL: Yeah! Way up there – BC: Right. JL: On the Oregon – yeah we pulled out there and then we drove home. We brought a car the bank had repossessed up in Preston, I guess, or some place for Aunt Eve who was Bammie Eccles’ sister and never had any children and so she adopted all of Bammie’s children and all of her grandchildren. And we were very close and she used to stay at our house. Her husband was an engineer on the railroad and so he was out of town a lot. And Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  2   �she used to come up and stay with Bammie in Logan. Then she would come back here and she would come up to the house. She lived out on the west side way out by Wasatch High School and then she’d come in and up to the house and stay. And it was great fun, she was a lovely person. She finally devoted a lot of her time to Bammie up in Logan – she wasn’t really sick but anyway, she was getting old (in those days). They were half sisters – same father, different mothers. So that’s what we did. BM: So speaking of mothers, what is your earliest memory of your mom? JL: My word! [Speaking to herself] Earliest memory [of] mom. I don’t know! I guess running a pretty tight ship when I was little and not even in school yet. But I had a friend – a life-long friend that lived across the street: Kay Henderson. She was my dear friend. We used to go to school together. She’d go with us. She came from a rather upbeat, youngest Dr. Dave’s family who was an eye, ear, nose and throat [doctor] in Salt Lake. Kay and I – well we just plain grew up together. She didn’t have quite as athletic of a background. She did fine, but she came from a family of kind of a bunch of kids and they couldn’t spend the money for ski clothing and so on. We remained friends all through our lives. She died three years ago in Cape Cod. It was a good, long-standing relationship I must say. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And it was fun to go over there because it was a big family. And I had only my brother Dave who couldn’t be bothered much with me which was fine. But growing up in the neighborhood but it was fun. BM: Was she someone that went with you when you traveled to Bear Lake or Logan? JL: Kay? BM: Um-hmm. JL: Oh yeah! She went to Bear Lake. Every year she would come up and go with us. They were sort of, you know, more religious. Her mother didn’t like her to miss church, but she did. My mother would talk her into it and say that she could go to church at Bear Lake. I don’t remember if she ever did or not. Maybe we did a few times. I can’t remember really. That wasn’t one of my great points in growing up. BM: Would you tell us a little bit about some of your early memories of Bear Lake and traveling over there? JL: Oh. Wow. First thing that happened was that we had a seven passenger Buick. Now that’s a pretty big car and it had little jumpseats. But we always had our dog, Tip, and I had the cat, Tawny, and three kittens usually. And we would pile into the car and we’d chug along and go up to Logan. And then we’d spend the night at Bammie’s house—Bammie Eccles’ not Bammie Quinney’s—but Bammie Eccles’. Then we’d get up the next Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  3   �morning and mother would drive us [o]n that old, broken down road that was a one-way road really, you know. People just didn’t go up to Bear Lake that way except people in Logan maybe, but we did! We’d go up there and haul in. That time we stayed up in Idaho – my first recollection of staying at Bear Lake was in Idaho. Mother rented the Gray house. Mr. Gray was the First Security Bank’s president in Montpelier, Idaho. Yeah, that’s how it was. He was there and we rented this house because by now they’d fallen upon hard times, then they went through a depression. The bank went bust, or whatever. It was kind of tough. But anyway, we rented that house for quite a few years. Then mother went out buzzing around one day and the next thing she did was come home and say, “I bought a house.” So down at Ideal Beach was a house that was owned by a Mr. Boyer who was a very successful (I don’t know what he was!) man – businessman. That went kind of belly-up and he had to sell the house. And here was this house that was completely furnished, lock, stock and barrel–silver and china and bedding and more bedding. And then Dad bought the lot, finally he talked Sister Boyer (maybe; Sister somebody) – and he sweettalked her. On part of that lot there was a lumber mill. And they’d cut the logs which was fine except all the sawdust they pushed into the lake. Well that doesn’t deteriorate really. So we had many years where every time we’d go down everybody would take a bucket of some sort. And we’d haul out the logging – BM: Sawdust? JL: Yeah. Well finally we got rid of it, I guess. Of course that was many a year ago. Mother came home and Dad nearly had a fit! But what she got that house for was—lock, stock and barrel. I think it was something like $800. It was just ridiculous! And it was the house we had. Dad, finally when Mother told him and he went to see what was going on, he knew the piece of ground. I don’t know what he did. A lawyer did that as a “Thank you very much people.” And so he was in good standing with the locals. They just got out and they cut that house in three parts and they moved it! And it wasn’t out that much. It was just amazing! I remember when they did it and I remember Mother went up to Bear Lake. And that fireplace of course was stone from across the lake. It was a big hole because they had to knock it down when they moved the house. So all Mother could see was this hole and oh she went into great sobs of mourning that the house would never be the same. Well of course it is the same and much better, and added on to, to some degree. We added on—we changed the kitchen quite a bit and added another bedroom and bath back there because Mother always had somebody to go to help. That extended the kitchen on out further and behind the kitchen was another bedroom. BM: Um-hmm. Now Ideal Beach is – when I look at this map – Ideal Beach is south of the Junction coming over to Garden City, but you were saying you were north to start off with? JL: Oh no, no, no. Here we are. Let’s see. [Looking at a map] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  4   �BM: Here’s Ideal. JL: Here’s Ideal. We’re down there to – what does that say? BM: That says Ideal Beach, Sweet Water Marina. So they’re just showing – JL: There, yeah well here’s – BM: That’s the Highway rest stop down there. So right around Rendezvous Beach State Park, which is very historic. JL: Yeah. We moved it down about 2 miles that way and about one mile from Garden City. BM: My goodness! And you literally picked up the house and moved it? JL: Yeah, it was just crazy what they did! BC: About what year was that, do you remember? JL: Well I can think, but wait a minute. Let’s see – I think I was 16 maybe; 15 or 16. Yeah, so how old would that make me? Since I’m 86. BC: So it would have been about 1937. JL: Yeah, something. BC: You said you spent a few years in Montpelier [Idaho]? Would that have been in the early 1930s? When you lived in Montpelier and rented Mr. Gray’s house? JL: No, that was in Fish Haven! BC: Fish Haven? JL: Down on the lake. That was their summer home! BC: Oh, okay. So he lived in Montpelier, but also had a house [on the lake] – okay. JL: Yeah they lived in Montpelier – Banker Gray – and had a beautiful home there. And there was Grove and Fred. Fred was the oldest son, then they had Grove and then they had a sister. What was her name? She was a cripple; she was born with faulty legs or something, I don’t remember what. She was a lovely person but she was certainly incapacitated. Times were hard. They opened up this fox farm in Fish Haven—Grove and Fred. Fred first and then he went off and went into business and then Grove took it over. And they raised these [foxes], they were a big thing in those days I guess. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  5   �BM: And they were fox they were raising? JL: Yeah, they were foxes. BM: And what were they raising them for? JL: For the fur. BM: Okay. How interesting. JL: Yeah, they really would. Fur coats; not really coats so much, it would take too many foxes. Oh, I remember. I never went down there though when they were slaughtering the foxes. That was not my cup of tea. Nor go out – yeah I did. I went out with them when they would go buy an old horse that was tired and slaughter it to feed the foxes. And of course you had to be down there every day. They had to eat. It was fun, I liked it. It’s nothing anybody else would like, but I did. Getting all bloody! Mother used to just shake her head and say, “My goodness, what have I got here?” See I was a little, bitty kid. I wasn’t very big at all. I mean structurally I was very small, but boy I was a terror I guess! Poor thing. BM: Now did you go over there winter as well as summer? JL: Huh-uh. No, never did. BM: So mostly summer? JL: Yeah. What we usually did was plan to go up there on, well around the 4th of July and then we’d close it up to some degree and get somebody to come in and drain the water; which we still do. But things are changing up there; very definitely changing. And I can envision–we’re not building anymore house. Rick was talking, I know, about building on to the bedroom wing and putting in another few bedrooms and a bath. I think we kind of decided that wasn’t a good plan. Anyway, I don’t think it’s happening, and it’s not my problem. I’m not going to be here to run that. BM: So when you say, “things are changing up there,” what do you mean? What kinds of things did you see change? JL: Oh! Oh the building is simply incredible that’s going on. And across the street and on up Hodge’s Canyon it’s all subdivided and people are building houses up on the hillside. And then they come down and go probably over to Ideal Beach, Bluewater Beach and go on to swim or put their boats in or whatever they have. BM: Was that something that you did when you were a child, boating? JL: Yeah. Dad had the only sailboat on the lake I guess, for years. And then we also had an outboard motor boat and then we got – well, let’s see. What have we got up there now? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  6   �Peter has a Hobie Cat up there. (Peter is my youngest son.) And he has this Hobie Cat and he also has – yeah I think he’s got a motor boat too. BM: So sailing was something that you learned from your father? JL: What? BM: Sailing was something you learned from your father? JL: Yeah. BM: Did your mother also sail? JL: No, she didn’t. That wasn’t her cup of [tea]– she’d go out there sometimes with Dad. They’d go out alone and just sail. Dad would sail very quietly, not too far out from the shore. But, yeah she went out boating. She went out boating – I had a boat too. That was a power boat. You know that lake isn’t constant. It varies – they pumped it out for irrigation upstream. Well, they don’t want it anymore upstream. Anyway, last year they pumped because the pumps would run out of – there was no water for them. And now they’re going to let that go back. They’ve sold it to, I don’t remember the name of the people they sold it to, but they are not interested in alfalfa which is what they used the water for. [Looking out the window] Oh, whoa. Looking out there at the sky, can you see? BM: Oh yeah; leaving a jet trail. JL: You see that? Yeah. Big old thing going across. Dad had a lot of foresight. However people don’t know and we don’t tell them that we have as much land as we have. But we’re well-protected on the north side and the south side of our property. And it of course goes to the children and I guess they like it. I think they’ll use it. [Speaking to somebody else] Who’s that? BM: Sounds like somebody is talking on the phone. JL: Maybe. And I don’t know, I just had some rare old times and fun times up there; very happy memories. It [Bear Lake property] has this great, big screened-in porch that goes all around half the house and the dining room table is outside. And there is a couch out there and Grandfather Eccles’ rocking chair, old leather rocking chair. It just has lots of memories. We have a book that we keep and people write in it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  7   �BM: Like the visitors that come? JL: Yeah, yeah. And it’s nice and it’s fun. And it’s fun to look back and it’s fun to look and see when I decided I better go home is when I was going to have that baby. And I did. BM: [Laughing] Now which child was that then? JL: It was Peter. BM: Peter? Okay. JL: Yeah. See, he’s 10 years younger. He was really an after-thought. He wasn’t a happenstance – he was planned on and conceived. And he went down Hell’s Canyon with me unborn. I didn’t tell Mother about it. I told Dad about it on the way home. And he said, “Does your mother know?” And I said, “Yeah.” He said, “I thought you were looking a little dumpy.” Yeah, that was May and Peter was born in August. Yeah, I was well along. I didn’t care, that was fun. I skied and I did everything! BM: Could you tell us a little bit about your skiing? JL: Well – BM: Where did you start? JL: There is Ecker Hill up Parley’s Canyon; Dave and Dad got involved in that through the jumping. Dad got interested in judging and got interested in the Norwegian people and he judged all the time up there, ski-jumping. And that is how Dave got going. I didn’t ever go off Ecker Hill—I was too little. I went off Rasmussen’s Hill which was down the way. But heavens! I didn’t even have bindings then. I think we took inner tubes and cut them and put them around the toe and around the outside of the toe and around the back. Those were our bindings. That was many a year ago! BM: That was inner tubing on wood? JL: Well the inner tubing I used for bindings – BM: Oh! JL: BM: They were like the old wood skis with a toe strap. That was it. And then you got a hold of that and then you got a hold of the inner tube and cut a piece about that thick and put it over your toe and over the toe of your boot and back over your heel and off you went on Rasmussen’s Jump. And it was a scaffold that was built and came down and landed on the hill and ran out. Oh, it was fun! How did you get up to the top? JL: Climbed. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  8   �BM: On snowshoes or boots? JL: No, no. We just climbed on our feet on the little hill I jumped. But the boys, the big jumpers – Al Bangerter and his tribe and us – they just put their skis over their shoulder and walked up to the top. BM: Hmm. JL: Boy am I thirsty. Do you want some water or something? BM: Actually, I’m fine. BC: I’m fine right now. JL: Are you? Alright. BM: So those are the days before ski lifts and riding on top of the mountain. JL: Dad did the first lift in Alta – Collins lift – he did that. I mean when I say he did it – he got 10 business friends of his to each put in x number of dollars (which I don’t know). Ecker Hill was there, but it was pretty rough and I think they used it, but not for tournaments and things. But he did. They built that and set it up. Now how does that work? I was thinking that it was the biggest ski jump in North America. Whether it was there or whether it was – I don’t know – in the Northwest. I don’t know. I would have to research that and look it up. But there wasn’t an awful lot of ski jumping even. But then I got my first pair of skis. I was little – I didn’t grow very much. [Tape 1 of 2: B] JL: Celeste can get you something. These caregivers I have are just wonderful. BM: Oh, I bet. It’s nice to have people here. JL: Yeah. Well I didn’t have them here except during the day, but then I fell a year ago in Moab and cracked it! BM: So now you have someone with you day and night. JL: I have somebody, yeah. I have two of them that are here day and night. BM: That’s great. JL: Yeah it is! I like it and they seem to like it, so. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  9   �BM: JL: So let’s go back to something you were saying. I am trying to picture the trip when you were a young girl from, not just Salt Lake to Logan, but Logan over – To Bear Lake? BM: -- to Bear Lake. I’m trying to picture that road. JL: Well at first it was even just a dirt road. Mother in the seven passenger car and the cat and the dog and a couple of kittens and Dave and I was there and BM was there I guess (or some household help). And we’d go to Logan and stay overnight at Bammie’s house – Grandmother Eccles’ house – and go chuckety, chuckety, chuck the next day. And sometimes your old car would heat up and you would have to sit there and wait for it to cool down so you could go on [laughing]. But we always stopped at Rick Springs. BM: Oh, sure! JL: That was very different then than it is now. Because, I don’t know what they’ve done but you can’t even hardly see it without getting out and walking! Well, I mean it wasn’t that way in those days. BM: So you got there and you parked your car, and what did you do at Ricks Springs? JL: Oh, we’d have a drink or have a sandwich or have some water. It was just halfway and it was good and it was fun and it was nice. And we always did that. Now I flew past – well I haven’t been up through Logan Canyon because it’s been all under construction and a mess. And then going in Roy into Ogden – that highway is just one big, bloody mess and I haven’t gone there. I don’t when that’s ever going to get done. And I don’t know when they’re going to quit monkeying with that road up the canyon. BM: Well they just did some bridge improvements, and that was quite – JL: Oh yeah. BM: -- quite a bit as far as stopping traffic one-way, and. JL: Yeah, because that one bridge goes over a great, big – BM: Oh, that’s the large one on the curve? JL: Yeah. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And I don’t know. I haven’t been up Logan Canyon—I don’t remember if I even went up last year because I just get on and zoom up here to Evanston and then- BM: So that’s your new route? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  10   �JL: Yeah. BM: Over 80 to Evanston and then up? JL: BM: Um-hmm. Um-hmm. Now when you went through the earlier part when you went through Logan Canyon, did you ever go to some of the places like Ephraim’s Grave (the big bear), or ? JL: Uh-huh. And they had, what an MIA Home or something? BM: What is that? JL: Up at the first dam or something? BM: Oh! JL: No, second dam I guess. And we used to cross the bridge and go up there and there was – I don’t know and MIA. Maybe it wasn’t, maybe it was something else. I don’t know. BM: Hmm. JL: But anyway it was a camp and the kids used to go up there for, you know, camping out – like Girl Scouts, only they were something else in those days. BC: So when you say, “MIA,” do you mean Mutual Improvement Association? JL: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. [Mostly likely talking about Camp Lomia, past 3rd Dam a few miles.] BM: So was that possibly the Scout Camp at St. Anne’s? BC: Might be, I’m not sure. JL: What? BM: Was it St. Anne’s? JL: What ? BM: The camp you’re talking about? JL: I don’t know. BM: Hmm. It was on the right hand side as you go up the canyon? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  11   �JL: You went over the dam there, which they used, and the water that came out of there they dammed it up. So, I don’t know what it was called. And besides it’s all different now. Utah State has that big forestry place up there too. BM: Um-hmm. Have you been there? JL: Yeah. That’s Mr. Dad’s. I said, “Now you quit that!” He said, “Wouldn’t you rather have me interested in it than somebody else?” I said, “Yes I would.” BM: So this is the forestry camp? JL: BM: Uh-huh. That’s on the right-hand side as you go up. JL: Um-hmm. BM: And was the – let’s see was it 1938 was the first summer camp up there? 1936? Somewhere in that time? JL: Um-hmm. BM: And so what is your dad have to do with that? JL: Well, he gave them the money to start the training camp up there. BM: Oh, okay. JL: And bring the animals and so on. BM: Um-hmm. JL: So that’s what he did. BM: It is a very important place for a lot of the foresters to get their start. JL: Oh I think so. BM: Yeah. JL: A lot of foresters. Um-hmm. BM: Also fire. As far as training young men to help with forest fires. JL: Now, that I didn’t know. But that’s interesting. It’s a good place, should be. BM: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  12   �JL: I don’t know why I don’t. I think they have one cabin up there that they save for Dad and Mother or for me or somebody to go up and stay overnight. I think I told somebody; who would I have told – BM: Was it Thad maybe? JL: Uh-huh, probably Thad. BM: So you have gone up and camped up at the Forestry Camp? JL: Yeah! BM: Oh, alright. Because there is one building that is the older building. JL: Yeah! BM: With all the pictures in it and the stove – JL: Right, right. BM: Okay. JL: What’s that called? BM: Well that is the old Forestry Camp CCC building. JL: Oh yeah. BM: And it’s the oldest building – JL: There. BM: It’s one of the oldest buildings there. And then there’s a larger dorm, which sleeps about 30 people. JL: There? BM: Um-hmm. JL: Yeah, that’s right. I do remember that. BM: Do you also remember – you know, part of that camp burned. JL: Oh, it certainly did! I had forgotten that. It really burned. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  13   �BM: The kitchen – the lodge. JL: Oh, that was – they had to rebuild it totally didn’t they? BM: We haven’t rebuilt it yet. JL: Oh, I thought we had. BM: No, not yet. We’re looking, we’re hoping. We’re hoping. But right now it’s an open area; there’s a small trailer that was there that serviced some of the work, but nothing like the beautiful lodge that you must remember. JL: Yeah, although it was – BM: The dining hall – JL: Yeah. It was kind of little, as I recall. BM: Was it? JL: Yeah, it wasn’t like – in comparison to maybe the Girl Scout camp down here or – BM: Camp Cloud Rim? JL: Rim. BM: Right, right. JL: Camp Cloud Rim. BM: Which was also a CCC building. JL: Well I guess those lakes [cabins?] were owned by people, you know. They weren’t just sitting there. I’m trying to think who – John Wallace; the Wallace family had up there. And the Brimhall family; and I don’t know. Of course they gave it over to the Girl Scouts and now they use it and have added onto it even since I was there. BM: Um-hmm. JL: For the dedication of the building or whatever. BM: And that was back in the late 1990s. JL: I guess, yeah. BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  14   �JL: I guess it was. BM: Yeah. JL: Did they name it for me or something? BM: They did! Your name is on that building. [The Janet Quinney Lawson camp?] JL: I just live in horror. [Laughing] JL: I say, “I’m giving you the money and you’re to go ahead, but don’t be putting my name.” There it was. BM: [Laughing] It’s on a building on campus too, up at Utah State. JL: Yes it was! What was it – oh that little Quonset hut. Yeah! That’s a great place. BM: That’s a great building though. [Ms. Lawson was recognized by USU in 2004 during the dedication of a building named in her honor. The Janet Quinney Lawson building houses USU's Utah Climate Center and Remote Sensing/Geographic Information Systems Laboratory along with other services.] JL: Oh, it is! I’ve been there when little kids have been there. One of them really attached himself to me; poor little things. BM: Was that the Adaptive Technology part where they’re in the basement there? JL: Yeah. BM: Is there a lot of children in that program? JL: Yeah that are learning to speak or walk, or – yeah, they’re physically limited. BM: Right. JL: But it’s a great thing that they can do what they’re doing in that Quonset hut. BM: Um-hmm. And they help a lot of children get around. JL: Oh, I know. I just know they do. And that cute thing out in front of the Edith Bowen – is it the Edith Bowen and Emma Eccles Jones, are they here? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  15   �BM: They are. Emma Eccles Jones Building is the education building and then Edith Bowen is the lab school, which is right next door. JL: Yeah. Is it west or is it –? BM: Edith Bowen is east – JL: Yeah, it’s east – BM: And then there is a sculpture – JL: Yeah, that’s a Van Dam BM: Right, right. With the two children and then the – JL: Yeah, then, uh-huh. And then Aunt Em’s building. BM: Right. JL: Dad’s building is there too; Dad and Mother’s. BM: Well that would be the College of Natural Resources building. JL: That’s right. BM: Right, right. And that’s right behind, that’s right to the south – JL: South. BM: Of your Quonset hut, that you call it. JL: That’s right. Well, that’s what it is! BM: It is! And you know there are still folks that come on campus that say, “I remember when that was a Quonset hut.” And it kind of still looks like a Quonset hut! JL: I think it does. Yeah, I do. BM: It has the remote sensing lab in it now; where they do a lot of the geographic maps. JL: Oh there? BM: Um-hmm. There are several entities in that building. JL: Besides the little kids? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  16   �BM: Um-hmm. JL: Oh. Well I just know that those little children – it’s wonderful when they can finally get them out. They’re kind of timid about everything of course, because they’ve been so protected; but, what a break for the parents and the children themselves to be able to get out. BM: And it’s also a great training center for the students. JL: Terrific! Just marvelous! BM: There are a lot of classes that go through there. JL: Well there’s kind of a lot of Eccles/Quinney stuff up there somehow. BM: There sure is! Now speaking of USU and getting back to Bear Lake – if you’re down near Ideal Beach, aren’t you also close to the USU – JL: Yes! That Dad built? BM: Oh! JL: I think Dad built that – gave them the money to build it. Yeah, it’s just down, maybe, oh, maybe three-quarters of a mile on the road. BM: Um-hmm. JL: But you can walk it. Of course now let’s hope that they’ll be good enough to – can’t I get you anything? I feel so – BM: No, I’m fine. JL: I feel terrible. [Ms Lawson is concerned for her guest’s needs.] BC: Oh, we’re fine. BM: When you were there, you talked about sailing and you talked about swimming. Were there also holidays, like Raspberry Days? JL: Oh yes! And I remember when the raspberries weren’t [growing] because they got diseased! A few years ago actually, that was. Oh yes, indeed! BM: Hmm. So what did you do for Raspberry Days? JL: Bought them and ate them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  17   �[Laughing] BC: Well did they have – when you were a little girl, did they have raspberries then? Or did that came later? JL: No, I think that came later. I think that was started by the Hodges family and their boys. And they planted those and then psh! I don’t know what happened. They got a disease though, and it really – it was something they couldn’t spray and kill and have it alright. It imbedded itself and would appear on the next year if you planted them. So, I don’t know. And now – I don’t know what they’re doing now. They’re behind that – what’s that called? That new place by the marina, only on the other side of the road? BM: Oh that large development? JL: Yeah. And then on up and up and up and up. Yeah. And that’s all being subdivided. And honestly I think Bear Lake is seeing the best of times. It’s – I’m concerned. I think it’s just going to develop and develop and more and more and more. And people are able to get there and they’re building houses. I don’t know, Well, I’ve got enough space that I don’t need to worry too much about it. BM: When you were over there before the development, do you remember cattle or sheep, or – with those hills where the homes are going – what was that landscape like? JL: Yeah. They ran cattle up Hodges Canyon. BM: Um-hmm. JL: They could run cattle up there. And they did and I don’t know whether they still can or just don’t do it because nobody’s interested in doing that kind of thing. All those people died; faded away. Although Rula is here and Dolly is here. And Dolly has died and Rula – Dad bought the piece that goes in front of Rula’s house is on that side. And she – what did they do? They finally got her to go over to Logan to live in a place, a house, a rest home or something in the winter. Because they said they wouldn’t leave her up there in the winter anymore, she couldn’t navigate. So I don’t know. I may see her, I hope so. I’ll have to find out. BM: And who is Rula? JL: Well, she’s a neighbor on the east side. And they have a house. And Tom used to help Dad all the time with the planting of the garden vegetables and so on, and mowing and one thing or another. Well, he died and so it was Rula’s. And so she sold us this section that was theirs, adjacent to our north boundary. It’s a south boundary and it’s a lot. And there’s nothing there except, oh beautiful roses. BM: Hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  18   �JL: I don’t know, I think one day maybe one of the kids will build something there. I’ve got a few of them hanging around that are entitled to do what they want to do. BM: Okay, so who’s the other person you were talking about? Dolly was another neighbor? JL: Yeah and she was on the other side of Joel. BM: Okay. JL: And they just loved him. Oh they just did. And they just used to open our house and clean it and so on. Of course those days have gone. Dolly died a couple of years ago I guess. I believe she was a year older than I am; maybe two. And Rula is a year younger. I think she had about 12 – Grandma Hodges. And oh, did she like Joel! He could just wiggle her out of anything. [Laughing] JL: And then he would do a lot, you know, and they had legal problems. Dad would help them out. And he was very kind. And they all knew it and all loved him for it and it was beneficial to us. Because see we own – well, God I don’t know how many front feet. I don’t tell them that because they don’t tax us. It’s undeveloped. BC: Yeah. BM: Sure. JL: But Dad’s never paid taxes. It’s called wetland. And actually it is. It goes down toward the USU building. There are a couple of houses and then the building is there. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And it goes down there. BC: When you’d go up there in the summer as a young child, did your dad stay up with you for the whole summer or did he come back to Salt Lake? JL: Oh, he’d come back, you know. BC: Uh-huh. JL: I think he just felt that he had to get back home. And he’d – sometimes he would stay up an extra day or two, but he didn’t stay up like Mother did. But Mother would pack us up and go in. Of course we had Mr. Coddle then and the store and that was fine. But that’s no longer. It’s all so changed. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  19   �BC: And would you spend any time up in the mountains hiking, riding horses or anything like that? JL: Huh-uh. No, nope. I just did it on the lake. And I rode horses on the lake. BM: Huh. Now who had the horses? JL: Oh, somebody local. Yeah. I’d say one of the Hodges I suppose. Yeah, even had my little kids which weren’t so little anymore – although maybe he died. They tore – I’m so mad at them, you know? Up there across the street from my place there was that old house and then that little log cabin that was the original old house. And when they bought that land they ripped it all down! And that was a terrible thing to have done! I mean that was kind of a historical little old log cabin! BM: Did you know the people that lived there? JL: Yeah, I did. He was interested in nothing but the money. Ron Hansen was his name. But I don’t know. Things will change, there’s no question about it. Gosh! I look up there to see Dad and was sitting down on the porch that we added on outside, off the dining room – the screened in porch. And it was right after he went up there after he had surgery. BM: Hmm. So it was a place he went to recuperate and rest? JL: Uh-huh. He loved it! He just loved it. And of course anything he did was for improvement. Now if that lake will get back up, I will be ever so grateful. And it may. Because the people who bought it from Scottish Power they can’t pump it anymore. They used to pump it and pump it upstream (or downstream, whatever you want) on up into Idaho, to give the farmers more, oh what do I want? BC: For irrigation water. JL: Yeah, for other chokecherry bushes. BM: Oh. JL: And they don’t do that anymore. They haven’t run the way -- . Yeah, they used to – they’d sell the chokecherries all the time. In Garden City you’d go to the stand and buy chokecherries. BM: Huh. JL: Take them home and put them in a pot and boil them up – ooh! Good! BM: And ate them as what? As a sauce, or [unclear] JL: No. Then you strain it and take it and thicken it as a chokecherry jelly or – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  20   �BM: Sounds like one of your favorites! JL: Oh yeah! Gee it was good! BM: Huh. And so you put it on toast, or? JL: Yes! Anything you’d put jam on! It was just delicious. And those days are gone! They just are. I looked out – going up toward Logan out of Garden City – here all this is subdivided down to that place, that new – BM: That new development down there. JL: Yeah, whatever that is. And I may not live to see it, but then I may live to see some, but I guess it’s just going like crazy. BC: It is. JL: Is it? BC: Yeah, I think it’s – JL: People are buying it and building and so on. BM: And it’s a beautiful place. JL: Oh! Of course it is. It’s just lovely. And down to the boat marina. BM: Do you remember the refuge? The wildlife refuge on the north end of the lake? Was that there, or was that yet to be established? When you go past the boat marina and the state park, and you continue north – JL: Yes. BM: Towards Montpelier, around the north end is now a National Wildlife Refuge. JL: It is?! BM: Um-hmm. JL: Well, I don’t know. I’ve driven around the lake and I know people that live there. BM: I’m trying to think of the year when that was established. Because I think you would have been over there. JL: Oh, I no doubt would have! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  21   �BM: It’s waterfowl and swans. JL: It’s beautiful! It’s more at the north end than the south end. Yeah. Yeah, I know where you mean. BM: Because part of the refuge – I’m wondering if you ever swam at this beach on the north end of the lake called – North Beach State Park? Is that it? JL: What is it called? BM: The very north end of the beach – by the pump houses. JL: Yeah, by the pump house. BM: That’s a very popular swimming place. JL: Well it is for the people that are up in Montpelier and Paris and St. Charles and so on, but there are no – there are some hot springs over there too. BM: That’s right. JL: Yeah and they’ve been there forever because I was a little kid and Mother used to take us to swim in it! BM: At the hot springs? JL: Yeah! BM: Oh, really? JL: So it’s really been there forever. BC: Oh. BM: That’s a very famous hot springs place. There was a hotel there. JL: Yeah. I don’t think – yes, I guess there, but that was really in the 1800s wasn’t it? BM: Yes, the late 1800s and 1900s. JL: Yeah, I know. But Mom used to take us up there. She didn’t like us to go swimming too much because she didn’t think it was very clean. BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  22   �JL: Yeah, I don’t suppose it was. And anyway I don’t know whether there is still swimming in there or not. BM: There are still hot springs back there in that area but the building is gone. JL: But the building is gone, so nobody really swims? BM: I think only locals who really know it’s there. JL: Oh. BM: But that is more off the north east corner of the lake. JL: That’s right. BM: Back towards the Bear River and the mountains then, close to Wyoming? JL: Yeah. BM: My goodness. You really got around! Holy cow. JL: And the Nebeker Ranch, which was big and now the kids are running it again. I don’t [know] whose it is? Is it Paul? See Dad was partners with all those gentleman. Paul and – BM: Um-hmm. Partners in the law firm, you’re saying? JL: Uh-huh. BM: Right. JL: They’re all gone, but their issue is there. And I don’t know who is over in their house. I know that the gals and boys – or boy and gal – that run the wonderful little stand that do those little donuts – ummm. [Licking her lips] [Laughing] BM: Wait, what donuts are these? JL: Uh, they just fry them right there. They are just little things like that. And oh boy! Are they good! I want to go out and get them. And then they also – they had some, they showed it to me anyway, chokecherry. But that is gone – that day and era. And you know, that’s kind of too bad. BC: Yeah, it is. JL: I feel sorry about that. I used to pick them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  23   �[Tape 2 of 2: A] BM: Tape 2, side 2[1]. JL: Yes. BM: Here with Janet Quinney Lawson and we’re continuing with our Bear Lake stories. So he still sails up there? Peter? JL: Yes! And his kids; you know Peter’s kids are getting big! He married and he got these two – after he was divorced from [?] and he remarried. And he has two little kids – three and five. And that’s pretty little. They come up. They come up for a week or ten days and they just love it and we love having them. BM: Oh, I bet! JL: And it’s the way it should be used. BM: Now are they swimmers as well as sailors? JL: Oh yes! Sure are. Is the Bear Lake monster for real? BM: Ah! You remember the Bear Lake monster? JL: Oh sure! [Laughing] BM: Tell us about that. JL: I don’t – BM: I actually have that in my notes as one of the myths or legends about – JL: Yeah, it is. BM: So what did you hear about it? JL: It’s exactly it – that it would come out and you better mind your p’s and q’s or it would get you! And it was usually at dusk or after. BM: Uh-huh. What did it look like? JL: I don’t know! It sort of was large and it sort of had a long neck that would recoil in I guess and just its head would be there; or it would be out standing up. What’s he got here? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  24   �[Reading] Is the Bear Lake monster for real? Did I give you one of these? BM: No, that’s fine, you can keep that. JL: Don’t you want one? BM: Nope, that’s fine. You can keep that. JL: I’ve got more. BM: That’s okay. On the monster, have you told your new grandchildren about this? Peter’s children? JL: Yeah, Peter’s. Uh-huh, two little fellows. BM: Um-hmm. JL: Um-hmm. BM: So they know about the Bear Lake monster? JL: Oh they do! And they’re sure they saw it. And as a matter of fact sometimes, you know, the 4th of July or 24th some boats get together and make a Bear Lake monster out of it. Oh yeah, it’s fun. BM: Well you know I also wondered if you fished there because there are fish in the lake. JL: Yeah, but they’re trash fish usually, like the sucker. They’re no good eating, they’re nasty. Yeah you can go and if you’re very patient and want to do it. The trout you just can’t catch, but gradually I think it will restore itself. BM: Um-hmm. BC: What about your father? Did he fish at all? JL: Oh yes! He was a great fisherman. Not really so much there, but yeah. But he fished there, sure. But it just didn’t yield anything but carp and sucker. They were so stupid you could catch them in a net. BM: Wow. When you talk about Bear Lake – that’s a summer place and you’re a skier so you’re coming down here to the Salt Lake City front – where was Beaver Mountain with the development of that ski resort when you were a young child? JL: It wasn’t. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  25   �BM: It wasn’t there. JL: No. That area was called Beaver Mountain. But I remember when it opened. BM: You do? JL: And I remember the people – I can’t tell you now, I just can’t – who opened it. BM: Were those the Seeholzers? JL: Yes, maybe. BM: Okay. JL: Maybe. BM: And so, how old were you when that [Beaver] opened? JL: I was probably 14 or 15 I think, because I raced up there. BM: Oh you did! JL: Yeah. And it wasn’t anything like it is now. I mean you have to go back up in, well that wasn’t like that. It was, seems to me, you just go off the road and go on up. BM: Um-hmm. Did it have a tow lift? JL: Well, actually yeah it did, it had a tow. But it wasn’t developed really, [back] then it had a single chair lift. I think it still does perhaps. BM: Um-hmm. JL: I don’t know; I haven’t been up to it. I’m very naughty about that. BM: It’s gotten pretty spiffy. JL: I guess it really, really has and I guess it’s just wonderful skiing! BM: Um-hmm. And the Seeholzer family still has the operation. JL: The rights? They do? My word! BM: And it’s grown. So you raced there as a child? JL: Uh-huh. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  26   �BM: Downhill ski racing. JL: Uh-huh. And giant slalom, we did that there too. And we did slalom; yeah, we did all of them. BM: Were they also jumping up there? JL: Not really. BM: No? JL: No, the jumping was mostly down here, up at Ecker Hill. [Ecker Hill is in Wasatch County] I’ve got some pictures that Peter [Lawson] has restored (and maybe some of them are up at the University, I don’t know) of the jumping days with Alf and Sverre and Corey [Engen]. Now they’re all gone. I think, to my knowledge though, Alf’s wife Evelyn is still alive. I’m not sure, but I believe she is. BM: This is Evelyn Engen? JL: Uh-huh. BM: I’m not sure. I don’t know the name. I know the name Alf. JL: Uh-huh, he was the older brother of the three. There was Alf and then there’s Sverre and Corey. And they all moved over here gradually. And then their parents moved over here. [Mrs. Engen moved to Utah, but her husband was deceased.] And she was Alf’s wife (she’s a pain in the butt! That’s not nice, but anyway she is.) She lives on an old farm. I think it’s an old farm. Maybe it’s not, maybe it’s out on the – I don’t know. It’s out there in one of those condominium developments. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And I’ve seen her on occasions at some gatherings skiing, but I haven’t seen her since the last ski archives up there. BM: At the university? JL: No. Up at the – what do they call it? That what I’m trying to think. BC: The University of Utah Ski Archives? JL: Yeah, that’s what it is. And that’s called something – I can’t think what it’s called. [The Alf Engen Ski Museum in Park City.] BM: Is it Ski Meister? Or is that a magazine? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  27   �JL: Maybe it is. BM: Hmm. But they celebrate each year, and that’s what you’ve been back to? Hmm. JL: I think Alf’s book or Corey’s book – was it Corey or Alf or Sverre? Maybe Sverre’s book. Over there, can you see it? BC: Yeah. There’s one called First Tracks? JL: Yeah, that’s the endurance. BC: Yeah. Let’s see – JL: He’s gone. BC: The Wasatch Mountains – JL: They’ve all died but me. And as my Dad said, “You’re too ornery.” [Laughing] BM: So you’ve skied with all of them? JL: Yeah. BM: That was part of your – JL: bringing up. BM: Gee. JL: Oh yeah. I skied, as I say, when you put the inner tube around your boot and binding and that was at Ecker Hill, that’s where we went. So of course it was open. Unless you skied, and we did later on and I did too. You know, you would drive up Silver King Mine and hike up and over and drop down into Brighton and stay at [?]; Mrs. Howardy would run that. The only way you could get in was to ski in. BM: Um-hmm. JL: God it was fun! BM: And the boys skied with the girls and you kept up with everybody? The boys kept up with you? JL: Oh, sure! Some girls – oh, Jenny Gurnsey, we were not best friends. Dear Aunt Em. I wonder who lives in that house now? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  28   �BM: In Logan? JL: Aunt Em’s. BM: Um-hmm. The Eccles House in -- JL: Not Bammie’s, but Aunt Em’s on the corner. Don’t know. BM: I don’t know. JL: She had an open house, somebody at Bammie’s house, and had it open and I couldn’t get there for some reason and I wanted to. So I’ll have to call one day and see if I can go and see her. I did a lot of growing up in that house. BM: In Logan? JL: You bet. BC: In the summers or all year round? JL: Mostly the summers. Well, we used to have winter there, Christmas. BC: Oh. JL: And Bammie would put one of the Christmas trees in the bay window on the second floor. BM: I bet that was beautiful. JL: Oh, it was wonderful! BM: And so you went up from Salt Lake to Logan for Christmas? JL: Yeah, and stayed. Bammie had a whole house of people. Mother was there and of course Aunt Marie was there but she lived in her own house I guess. I used to get so mad at her, but it was George’s fault, he would just spoil her rotten, you know. All she did was feed the kid, whichever one she had at the moment, and he would bring the baby to her. Honestly! What a woman. BM: So these Christmases, this was an annual thing? You went up every Christmas? JL: Yeah, yeah. Until Bammie decided she wouldn’t stay there anymore. She went down to California. And then we quit going up there and did Christmas at home. But Bammie stayed there and then eventually of course we moved Bam down, moved her into the Mayflower apartments [in Salt Lake City] where she died. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  29   �BM: Can I ask you what Logan was like at that time? JL: Well, it had the streetcar, you know? It went clankety, clankety, clank. And it had Bammie’s electric car. “Clear, here comes Mrs. Eccles, clear the way!” And Bammie – it had enough juice in it to take her from her house to Aunt Marie’s. Now that was a pretty good haul up. Back wasn’t bad, but up was – BC: Now is Aunt Marie [Marie Eccles Caine] the same – below the university they call the Caine House? JL: The old – yeah, yup. BM: So right on the corner of 500 North – JL: And – what is that? BM: 600? JL: It’s called “Something Way” or – BC: Yeah. BM: It goes right up past Old Main, they could probably see the Tower from their house. JL: Oh yeah, they lived directly down, actually. BM: So you went in an electric car from you aunt’s over there – JL: It was fun! BM: Oh my goodness, that’s interesting. JL: It was very sad and I didn’t know it, but Uncle Spence sold Bammie’s [car] (it was the second one she had too, it was in perfect condition). He sold it to the scrap yard. BM: Sold the car? JL: Yes! BM: Why did he do that? JL: Huh? BM: Why did he do that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  30   �JL: Because the War was on and they needed it I guess. And Bammie wasn’t there to drive it. I don’t think she was. Was she there? I don’t remember when she moved to Salt Lake. BM: So this would have been the 1940s then when he sold the car? JL: Yeah. BM: Hmm. JL: There’s a statue. BM: There you go, that’s the sculpture. JL: Then there’s that. BM: Oh! JL: That’s a miniature of the one that’s at Westminster. BM: Okay. JL: But it’s life-size; you can sit in a couch beside it. I was trying to think: who is that? I used to go down to California and stay and visit Em and Noni. BM: Now who is Noni? JL: She’s the younger sister and she’s always lived in California, in Berkeley. Just over almost to Piedmont. BM: Um-hmm. JL: And Em – after Uncle Lee died – she moved down there and she lived with Noni until Noni finally kicked her out. Here’s my mother. That’s Mother, and that’s Marriner and that’s Ellen. BM: Ellen? JL: Bammie’s next-to-the-youngest. BM: Oh, okay. JL: And Merrill. BM: And you remember them very well? JL: Oh yeah! Sure, I stayed with them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  31   �BM: Did they ever come over here? JL: Oh yeah. BM: And to Bear Lake? JL: Um-hmm. BM: So you had company there quite often? JL: Um-hmm. BC: And that’s Marriner. JL: Yes. BC: Do you remember him at all when he was Secretary of the Treasury? JL: Sure. I was back in Washington with him. I used to stay with him because I was in barracks and I didn’t want to be in the barracks very much. So Uncle Marriner would say, “Well come on; you come stay here if you want to. And just check in and out so I kind of know what and how.” So I stayed at the [?] [whispering]. It’s kind of posh! It was very posh because the other ones were over in Arlington. The barracks were just over the Potomac River. BC: So were you in the Navy, or? JL: Yeah. I was in the Navy and I loved it! And I loved being in the Navy. And the only reason that I got out was because I married Fred and I got pregnant purposely. Because I couldn’t get out, I just couldn’t do it. Then I got pregnant and then I could. No reason I couldn’t have stayed in. BM: Hmm. When were you – what time period was this when you were back east? JL: In the Navy before? Who’s that? Who’s that? BM: Is that a bird? JL: No, well I guess. I’m looking just over the fence and I think probably it’s the gardeners. They moved that house. BC: Oh did they? JL: Uh-huh. BM: Beautiful tree. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  32   �BC: So did you join the Navy then? JL: Yeah. BC: And that was for World War II, or? JL: When I got to be 21 I joined the Navy. I couldn’t before that, because my dad wouldn’t give his permission and I had to have my parents [permission]. So finally I got to be 21 and bang! I joined it. BM: So how did you tell them that you joined? Your parents? JL: Very terrified. [Laughing] BM: Did you do it face-to-face or did you do it by phone? JL: No, I did it face-to-face. BM: Ooh. JL: Boy Dad! Mother I didn’t care about; but Dad was going to be a case. And he was! He practically went to Marriner to tell him to get me out of this thing. And Marriner said, “I can’t do that!” Because he was still Head of the Federal Reserve back in Washington. BM: Um-hmm. JL: So there I was off to [?] college and boot camp. And then when I got out of boot camp I went to Washington D.C. with a Bureau of Ships and that was great because it was a very closed, small, what they call a “Blue Seal” office. Nothing ever went out of that office. Everything was burned, had to be. We camouflaged all the battle ships and they would send [?] to them. And we would take them and put them on a paper and scale them down to – and put them on a paper and then put ships out there to see how the ships . If they looked like ships something, blah, blah, or whether we would camouflage them so they didn’t look like the ones that they were. It was fun, I like it. As a matter of fact I liked the Navy. I really did. I had a great time. My father and mother had conniptions. But I was 21! And I just did it. I must have been a terror for them to raise and I think probably I was. Dave wasn’t here, my brother. He was in Australia. No, was he in Australia? Yeah, I guess he was; in the Army. BM: So he couldn’t even be here to back you up? JL: No, no. After I got out of the Navy I met – through the S.O.S. or S.S.? BC: S.S. I think. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  33   �JL: Yeah. And I got some kind of – not because of who I was but because of who I had been in the skiing department and in the skiing mainly and so on, they wanted this run. And now he or she is a wave and so on. We had fun. I had special [?] that brought me into the studio and oh! Yeah, had a good time. I like it but I couldn’t stay in when I got pregnant. Which I probably wouldn’t have gotten pregnant except that’s the only way and Fred had been transferred to Ohio from D.C. and so the only way I could get there was to get pregnant and get out of the Navy honorably. I did! Everything just went swell! BM: And you came back here? JL: No, I joined Fred in Dayton, Ohio where Rick was born. And that was something else again. I thought Dad would have a fit! And I said, now never mind, I did this deliberately and I’ll probably have another one deliberately. So anyway, I had the baby and stayed in the Navy – or stayed in until Fred was released – and then we checked out and came here. He’d never been here before. He’d never been west of the Mississippi I don’t think; poor old guy. BC: How did you meet Fred? JL: In the Army-Navy picnic. Creek Park is where I met him. Although that was tough because he was an officer and I wasn’t. And that made things a little tough sometimes. But we managed, much to my father’s chagrin. I think he probably – what would he have me – well I would have stayed in school I guess. I didn’t ever graduate from the university. Because I was busy in the Navy and I did love it though. I really did. And it was very good for me to do. And I was in a wonderful office in Washington, on Constitution Avenue, in the Blue Seal Room. And that meant that upon opening and closing that it was always locked. You couldn’t get in there unless you were admitted by somebody who was your --. We were only about eight or 10 people in this particular department. And we would camouflage the ships and put them on a board and look at them out here and see if we had camouflaged out a stack; to change what kind of class it was in. We burned everything, had to be burned. Nothing went out of that office. BM: Do you remember where you were when the War ended? JL: Sure. I was in Dayton, Ohio. BM: Had you had your baby then. JL: Yeah. BM: Rick was already born? JL: Yeah, Rick got himself up and born. An OB/GYN, who apparently was a very outstanding and very something else – OB/GYN doctor – Kirschbaum, I think that was his name. And boy, he took such good care of me. He thought this was the biggest joke Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  34   �on the Navy he’d ever heard. And so Dr. Kirschbaum, who was an outstanding, apparently OB/GYN out of Chicago – he’s the one that delivered me. BM: Hmm. JL: Hardly got there in time. I didn’t have much trouble. Oh, I didn’t. Mother was very busy trying on hats until Dad I thought was absolutely going to croak her. BM: She was trying on hats while you were – JL: In labor. BM: Oh! JL: Getting ready to go to the hospital. Because you know, where we lived Patterson Village was a long way from – well, I guess it was at least a half an hour or 45 minutes away from Wright Field where you had to go to have this baby. It was funny. Did you see that? Emma Eccles Jones: Educator, Teacher, Friend. (6 March 1898—29 March 1991.) [From Utah State Magazine, Vol. 14 No. 2; Summer 2008] BC: They published this for the dedication the other day. JL: Yeah. BC: Yeah. Somebody told me about it, but I hadn’t seen one yet. JL: Well, that’s it. I won’t give it to you, but you can probably go and get one. BC: I will. We’ll put it in our [Special Collections]. I work in the library, so we’ll put it in our [library at USU.] JL: Absolutely. I think Rick wrote a lot of it. BM: Well, we’re just about at the end of our tape. So is there anything else that you would like to add? JL: No. What do you want to add? BM: Well. JL: Or ask? If I can fulfill – BM: Well you know one question that we were really interested in, that you talked a little bit about in terms of so many changes going on at Bear Lake. And Bear Lake and Logan Canyon – you mentioned the road and the bridges. Are there any other significant Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  35   �changes or policies that you can think of that impacted the lake or the canyon while you were going over there? JL: Well. BM: Or even events. Like the Depression, or civil rights, or anything like that? JL: I went – where was it? You know, it’s about that road that goes up, up, up and comes to where you turn off to go – what is that road called? The part of it? BM: Is it the winding part of the road? JL: No. It’s the one that goes up from the river, over the bridge – they had to redo the bridge like completely. [Tape 2 of 2: B] Yeah. Gee that was a fun one. You know when you go at the top there on that Denny’s dugway and then turn to get out, you used to go out and around on that point. You can probably still see the road. And mother was driving this 7 passenger Buick you know it’s just a big hunk of machinery. That was the climb. And you know, you didn’t just sort of flip up there like you do now. It was fun though. Mother was quite adventuresome. I don’t know, I guess she went up to the store and tell Joan she was there. You didn’t go over Evanston because from Evanston over was dirt road. All through Woodruff, Randolph up the canyon, it was all dirt. BM: And you said you came then in most recent years, you came up through Evanston. Where you going through Woodruff and Randolph at Deseret Ranch? JL: Yes. BM: Was that a place that you were in? JL: Yeah we didn’t go into it. No, we stayed on the road that went past the horse racing and we went up there and then we just zoomed and kept going until we got to Big Junction. From there you can go to Jackson Hole or Bear Lake. BM: Is that Sage Creek Junction? JL: Yeah, it’s Sage Creek Junction. And yeah, it’s longer but well I just haven’t driven in Logan forever. I was asking somebody the other day how it was. Could I get through the canyon or couldn’t I? Cause I was thinking about going up that way. BC: I think it’s pretty good right now. I don’t think there’s much going on now. So you better do it this year because they might start all over again. [Meaning road construction.] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  36   �JL: Yeah it I otta go. Why didn’t they leave it alone?! BM: Cause there’s lots of skiers and lots of folks going up and down. And they are in a hurry. JL: Well, do you think that they are to get up skiing to the meadows there, is it a lot faster now with the road? BM: It is. It’s a lot faster. You know 10 years I’ve been here, but it is a lot faster from what people tell me. It’s still a beautiful ride. JL: I know. It is. That’s the prettiest. The other one is just interesting kind of. Getting up, over and dropping down. BM: But it gets wicked in the wintertime with the weather. JL: Well, yes it is. I guess it’s a hard road to maintain. They only open it up to the ski area. I don’t think they open it up and over the top and down do they? BM: They do keep it open now. JL: Do they?! BM: So you remember a time when the road used to just be opened to the top? JL: Yeah. BM: Hmmm. And did they gate it? JL: No… they didn’t gate it. I don’t know. You just knew it wasn’t plowed. That’s how you knew. You came to a grinding halt. BM: And the last place you could get to was what? Beaver Mountain? JL: Mm Hmmm. Yeah. BM: That’s a truck route now, Janet, with a lot of trucks that go through there pretty much year round. JL: What? Bear Lake? BM: Yeah. JL: Oh. Over the new road? BM: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  37   �JL: Oh I’m sure. There was a great increase even before they did this new deal as it started down. What was it called? Denny’s dugway. I wonder if it’s… is it significantly better? BM: They’ve taken some of the corners, they windy parts out. BC: Probably the big thing was they’ve built in a lot of passing lanes, so that you know, if you had a recreational vehicle that was going slower, they wouldn’t back it up as much. So now you can get around some of the slower vehicles. It probably saves you 15 minutes. JL: Honestly, who don’t go that way, go the way that’s not pretty just go to Montpelier [Idaho]; that’s where people want to go I guess. Course Montpelier is a train … BC: Train town. JL: And there’s nothing in St. Charles. And there’s nothing in Paris really. And I don’t know what they could build there. Or what they would have there. BM: I think mostly the change now is just homes that are going in. Summer homes and some are winter ski homes. But mostly just homes because some the ranches that were there are much smaller or gone. But more, more homes. JL: Between Montpelier and Lake Town? BM: Between Paris, St. Charles, and then down I don’t know what the next town would be, but along that side. Little by little… JL: They are encroaching on my property and I don’t like it. BM: Well, Janet, thank you so much for chatting with us this afternoon. JL: Oh sure! I hope I’ve done something good. Well, if it isn’t right, or you need more whatever, I will be aboard. BM: Alright. Well, thank you very much for having us today. We appreciate it. JL: I hoping I could get you something? BM: You know I might take a glass of water now. Thank you. JL: Um hum. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Janet  Quinney  Lawson     Page  38   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janet Quinney Lawson interview, 28 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at her family's summer home at Bear Lake. She also talks of her childhood memories at family members' homes in Cache Valley, Utah. She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah, and in Cache Valley, and Bear Lake. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Interviews Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Family Quinney, S. Joe (Seymour Joseph), b. 1893 Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Boats and boating--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Vacation homes--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Anecdotes Skis and skiing--Utah Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah) Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp Utah State University. Janet Quinney Lawson Building Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Friends and associates--Anecdotes Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)--Description and travel Bear Lake Monster Monsters--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Folklore Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History Beaver Mountain (Utah) Logan (Utah) United States. Navy--Women Automobile driving--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Garden City (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Parley's Canyon (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Salt Lake City (Utah) Salt Lake County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 2 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd2JanetQuinneyLawson Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 28 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-28 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/12164225cbb35b3dad32e60ee5ab0ab5.mp3 e4517100ed654e6ecd041d681f5c4196 https://highway89.org/files/original/fbfa9b76b77815e0452c9d5daa1d795b.pdf 2957a2b316558299493f920fcdf493b9 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Fred Wagner Place of Interview: Utah State University Date of Interview: April 15, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Tape Recorder, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Fred Wagner; Randy Williams (July 2011) Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains information on Fred Wagner’s childhood and interest in the outdoors. He discusses his goal to be a rancher and his experience working as a cowboy where he realized his interest in plants and animals. He then discusses his education at Southern Methodist University and later at the University of Wisconsin (where Aldo Leopold was a professor). He discusses his views on the interface of science and policy, and his experience with such throughout his career doing scientific research, including blacktail jackrabbits and coyotes in the Curlew Valley; his work with the Desert Biome Program; with Fred Knowlton, work on predator studies; work with Global Change Research Program, coordinating the Rocky Mountain/Great Basin Regional Assessment. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) FW = Fred Wagner NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BM: We are here on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 and we’re in Fred Wagner’s office, here on the campus of Utah State in the Biology and Natural Resources building. And it is snowing Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  1   �outside. We are getting ready to interview Fred on the first interview, and looking at some background information. Fred, would you introduce yourself: your full name and when and where you were born? FW: I am Frederick Hamilton Wagner. I was born in Corpus Christi, Texas on September 26, 1926. BM: Okay. How about giving us a little bit of background on how you developed your interest in the out of doors. FW: Okay. It probably started with my father who enjoyed hunting and fishing and camping. He took me out with him and when I was old enough to hunt then I began doing that as well. So it started there. It also must have started in my earliest years when we lived in San Antonio, Texas and had a vacant lot next door where I enjoyed recreating: climbing mesquite trees and in general enjoying the out of doors. By the sixth grade I had previously been interested in studying medicine (I don’t know why), but had been reading some medical books but gradually changed more generally into biology. In the sixth grade one of my teachers persuaded me to participate in competitive tests – statewide in the state of Kansas – in biology, which I did. Now I’m going to jump around a lot geographically. My father was a government engineer, and hence we moved on average of every year. So we lived in different places. For example, one year we lived in Corpus Christi, Texas had a house right on the beach and I essentially lived on the beach swimming, beach combing and fishing. We also lived in Pecos, Texas, out in the far west where I became enamored of the ranchers out there; and the big tall guys marching up and down the sidewalks with big hats and cowboy boots. So when I graduated from high school I had decided that what I wanted to do was be a rancher in west Texas. And although I was a city boy up to that point, really had not worked at it, my parents told me that if I would get out and learn the working end they would save their pennies and perhaps we’d go into the ranching business. So I got a job immediately after high school working on a ranch in far west Texas. I worked at that for about a year living outdoors all day every day, sitting on a horse virtually every day; but in fact, sort of relating more to the wild plants and animals that I saw as we worked around in the outdoors, than to pushing around the livestock that I was required to do. After I had worked a year on the ranch I thought that I was going to be drafted into the army. I was taken in very briefly, but was released because of a knee injury I had sustained with a horse falling with me during my ranching time. My folks had been living in Las Vegas, Nevada at that point, also in the west of course, so when I was released I went back to Las Vegas and got a job working on the Desert Game Range – the largest of the Federal Wildlife Refuges in the lower 48. I had gotten to know the refuge biologist briefly as I had visited my parents between leaving the ranch work and before responding Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  2   �to the draft. So I worked on the refuge for the better part of a year; was outdoors all the time; assisted the refuge biologist in his research on desert bighorn sheep and continued that until the war ended in the latter part of 1945. And in the fall of ’45 I left the refuge and moved to Dallas, Texas where my folks were then living; and started college at SMU [Southern Methodist University]. I’d really wanted to go to the University of Texas but it was too late, and there was a mass of returnees from the armed forces. So I just lived with my folks for the first year and started at SMU majoring in biology where by that point I’d learned that it was possible to work for a living in the field of wildlife. I’d learned that while working on the refuge. So I majored in biology. I had a botany professor who’d just joined the faculty from the University of Wisconsin where he’d taken courses from Aldo Leopold. His name was Shinners and he encouraged me to continue for graduate work; wrote Leopold and asked if they would be willing to look me over as a possible graduate student. And unbeknownst to me Shinners sent money up to Leopold’s department for them to hire me on their summer research projects and pay me a salary. I guess I did reasonably well in the work so they accepted me as a graduate student. And in the fall of 1949, after graduating from SMU, I went to Wisconsin and began my graduate work there. Now Wisconsin at that point – the University Wildlife Department was very small. In fact, at its outset there was only one faculty member – Aldo Leopold. So what Leopold required of his PhD students was that they fulfill the major in another department on the Wisconsin campus. So I had a dual PhD, one in Wildlife – in that department – and one in the Zoology Department of Wisconsin where I took a heavy load zoology classes. And then I had to minor so I minored in the Botany Department, in Plant Ecology. So that was my academic background. Do you want to continue on this? Okay so, a fellow graduate student at Wisconsin was Allen Stokes, who was several years ahead of me. We became friends and socialized. And when Allen finished his degree at Wisconsin he was looking for a position and one was advertised in the Wildlife Department at Utah State University. So I urged Allen who was a Pennsylvanian who’d never been west of the Mississippi, I assured him he’d like the West and urged him to apply for that position, which he did. And he was hired on the spot when he interviewed. Well Allen completed his first six years on the faculty and then told his department head that he wanted a sabbatical. His department head said, “You can have a sabbatical, but you have to get your own replacement.” So Allen called me at Wisconsin, I still hadn’t finished my graduate work. And at that point in time I was working as a research biologist for the state of Wisconsin. So I asked if I could take a leave of absence, which I did, and they gave me a year’s leave. So I came out to Utah and taught Stokes’ courses during that year. Then when Stokes came back from his sabbatical I went back to Wisconsin, finished my degree, and at that point another position opened at Utah State, and I applied for it and was hired in response to my application. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  3   �So a series of stages in my life have had me in the out of doors, had me interested in plants and animals, interested in biology, and eventually that shaped my career into wildlife. And I have now spent my entire professional career at Utah State University. BM: Could you just explain a little bit how the college was organized at that time, since departments have changed? FW: When I started at Utah State, which was in the fall of 1961, there were three departments in the College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management; Department of Wildlife, Department of Range Management, and Department of Forestry. And so my appointment was in the Wildlife Department. BM: And at that time, what was the focus of the Wildlife Department? FW: Well, natural resources were simpler in those days and so we thought about managing wildlife to produce wildlife species for hunters and fisheries for fisherpersons. The Range Department essentially was oriented to managing rangelands for livestock. And the Forestry Department here at Utah State had a bit of an image problem, in that it thought it should teach traditional foresters. So it had a faculty made up of dendrologists, forest managers, etc., teaching a traditional program in forestry. But at that time, and continues to the present, Utah was not a significant timber producing state (like say Oregon and Washington or even California; or today Montana, Idaho). BM: So in your early years where was some of your research focused when you first arrived here at Utah State? FW: Well, one of the things that I’d been interested in both while working for the state of Wisconsin and as contributing to my dissertation was studying animal populations. And the man who ended up as my major professor in the Wildlife Department was Joseph Hickey, who was very interested in animal populations. So I directed my research in Wisconsin to pheasant populations in that state, and became interested in population ecology. When I moved to Logan, I learned very soon that in the west deserts of the state there were large populations of blacktail jackrabbits that cycled in what turned out to be approximately a ten year cycle. And I’d been very interested in cyclic behavior in studying animal populations in Wisconsin. So my first research was directed toward studying the population dynamics of blacktail jackrabbits in the west deserts of Utah. Soon after that, it seemed to me likely that the major predator on blacktail jackrabbits was coyotes. So my next research, to go along with the jackrabbit work, was to study jackrabbit populations in the same area that I was studying coyotes. And it turned out that jackrabbits and coyotes were linked in what I learned was approximately a 10-11 year cycle; the jackrabbits rising to high density, coyotes increasing along with them. Eventually increasing to the point where they could suppress the jackrabbits, so driving the jackrabbit populations down. And then having driven their food supply down, the coyotes declined as well, which in turn released the jackrabbits, etc. So they cycled up and down together, but with about a two year lag in the coyotes. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  4   �BM: In that area in the west desert, could you give us some towns that we could look at on the map? FW: My research was concentrated in an area called Curlew Valley which is in the northwest part of the state and also extends into Idaho. The town on the east side of Curlew Valley is Snowville [Utah]. BM: And are you just south of the City of Rocks then? Is that close by? FW: Not too close, no. City of Rocks is farther west in Idaho. BM: Right. FW: And farther north. BM: Okay. Now you’re looking at population ecology – were there students involved with you at that time – undergrad and graduate research? FW: Well particularly graduate students. My early graduate students worked with me on – and themselves had degree of projects – working both on coyotes and jackrabbits. But then we spread out and conducted research on other aspects of the fauna in Curlew Valley. I had a student studying badger; I had a student studying antelope ground squirrel; I had a student studying raptors. So we were looking at a good share of the fauna. So I was really working in what we call the high desert of the Great Basin. In the late 1960s a national program came along which was part of what more broadly was called the International Biological Program. And Congress appropriated large funds for the American component of the International Biological Program. The major effort in the IBP was dividing up the U.S. into biomes and bringing together large numbers of investigators from numerous institutions to study each of these biomes. And one of the biomes was the Desert Biome. The organizers of the biome program looked over the institutions here in the West and by that time we at Utah State had a pretty sizable program – both in plant and animal ecology – that really began in the College of Natural Resources. So I sort of threw our hat in the ring for consideration to administer the Desert Biome Program. Eventually we were accorded that responsibility. We worked with about two dozen western institutions, all collaborating on research in different sites in the intermountain west: one in Nevada, one in New Mexico, one in Arizona, and Curlew Valley again, as the high desert representative. I started out as the Deputy Director, then became Co-Director, and finally Director of the Desert Biome Program; and so that got me more broadly involved in desert research. I ended up with a project on the fringe of the Sahara in North Africa, but also collaborated with people working in the Israeli deserts, in the Indian deserts, even in the Australian deserts. So it brought me quite a bit of foreign travel to desert areas and different parts of the world, as Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  5   �well as our getting around and collaborating on desert research around the Intermountain West. BM: Can I ask a question on that? FW: Yes. BM: When you went to those different areas, did you go [individually or with] an interdisciplinary team, to look at the specific problems of those desert biomes? [Was] this a time when the general understanding of the ecology of deserts was becoming widespread? FW: All of the above. BM: Okay. So did your team, your desert biome team from this station then go, or were you mixing with other people? FW: Well we went to some conferences and some sort of interdisciplinary meetings, but mostly I was doing the traveling. And I went alone to interact with the desert researchers in Israel, in India, and in Australia. So I was fortunate to do some of that travel myself, but also I would go with a party of maybe four or five people as well. BM: Um-hmm. FW: Also, another area was in one of the provinces of what was then the Soviet Union: Turkmenistan, where we looked at the central Asian deserts of what was then the Soviet Union. BM: What kind of things did you find? FW: Well we were looking at whether deserts elsewhere in the world were different than ours, or whether one could propose any scientific generalities that apply to deserts. And in fact we did. We saw similar behavior of the vegetation; similar behavior in the evolutionary directions of the animals, parallel principles operating in all of the arid lands of the world where the plants and animals have evolved to cope with those kinds of conditions. BM: Um-hmm. That’s fascinating. So – FW: Well, let’s see. The Biome Program ended at the end of the 1970s. And I was involved in a miscellany of things after that. (Give me a minute to think, turn it off!) [Laughing] That kind of paints some of the actual ecological research directions my career has taken. Some of those research aspects got me into questions of policy and interaction of policy and science. For example, my research with coyotes in Utah landed me on a national panel assigned to evaluate the pros and cons of predator control in the West. So as I looked at the evidence for what predator control does and does not do to the native biota, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  6   �but also the pros and cons of its use for basically reducing sheep losses to coyotes in the West, I began to see how policies that were set on predator control did and did not look at the biological realities – the scientific realities – of what was happening. So that started my interest in the interface between science and policy and the degree to which science does or does not influence policy. When I first arrived at Utah State I was teaching a course in big game management and we’re not that far from Yellowstone National Park. So in my first winter here I scheduled a bus and took the students in the big game class to Yellowstone Park to look at the management of national parks but also to observe this wonderful area with huge numbers of big game animals. So that got me involved in Yellowstone and I learned about their management policies at that point in time in the early 60s. Within a few years after I started those trips I got involved in the Biome Program and a number of other things, so I turned the trips over to another faculty member, who in the latter 60s took students up and learned that there had been a change of personnel and a reversal of policies that had been in place in Yellowstone for probably a good 40 years. And the original policy seemed to be well supported by the science that was being done in the Park and suddenly now there was this change in policy and a change in the science. The scientists were saying very different things from what previous scientists had said for a 40 year period. So that raised my curiosity on another issue of the role of science in policy. It raised my interest in the interface between science and policy. But I was not doing any research in Yellowstone so I could not publish any professionally based opinions or critiques on the situation. But in the mid 80s I met a person who was doing research at his own expense on what was going on in Yellowstone. He had a master’s degree from the University of Montana, so I persuaded him to come to Utah State to work on a doctorate to expand the work he was doing in Yellowstone and I found funding for his research. He did a massive five year study and drew conclusions that were in accord with what I thought was going on in Yellowstone and with what the 40 years of earlier research had found. So that increased my interest in the interface between science and policy and why suddenly science had been changed where policy had been changed. BM: Who was that student? FW: Charles Kay was the student. So at that point Kay’s work was funded by the Welder Wildlife Foundation in Texas, whose director I had known as a graduate student. We were registered together in Wisconsin. So I persuaded Welder to fund Kay’s research. Well at that time this person (his name is Jim Teer) and at that point Jim was president of The Wildlife Society. So Jim, as president, asked me to chair a study of wildlife policies in the American national parks which I did. And we conducted a study and eventually published a book on it, published by Island Press; the title Wildlife Policies in U.S. National Parks. So that just furthered my interest in the interface between science and policy. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  7   �So now we’re into the 1990s. And at this point the world and the U.S. is starting to wake up to the reality of climate change – of global warming. BM: Just one question because you’ve got about three minutes. The Yellowstone fires have occurred, is that significant at this time? With the challenges to policy? FW: The Yellowstone fires primarily burned the higher elevation areas of Yellowstone, whereas my student’s study was about the effects of elk on what’s called the northern range, a lower elevation region, on the north fringe of the Park. And the fires did not have much affect on the northern range. So our work really did not address the fire issue. Well Charles Kay finished his Doctoral degree in 1990. I published the book on wildlife policies in American National Parks. A few years lapsed, but in the late 90s the director for the National Center for Ecological Analysis and Synthesis, in Santa Barbara, California invited me to come out and be a fellow in the center and write a book on Yellowstone – which I then did. And so I published that and the title is Yellowstone’s De-stabilized Ecosystem: Elk Effects, Science and Policy Conflict. So that’s pretty well brought up to date and kind of ended my involvement in Yellowstone. We should go back and mention that I was doing the coyote studies in Curlew Valley in my early years at Utah State, and I applied for a grant with the Fish and Wildlife Service in Denver. They gave me the grant and assigned a man by the name of Fred Knowlton, who at that time was their employee studying coyotes in Texas. After I got to know Fred I told him that he was a single person working on a difficult project and I was a single person working on a difficult project and that he ought to move to Utah State and we would collaborate in our coyote studies. And so Fred did and that was the beginning of the predator studies and the predator unit here at Utah State University. [Tape 1 of 1: B] BM: (Tape one, side 2) And we’re continuing. FW: A bit more about the Fred Knowlton relationship. Fred at the time was with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and his research was later transferred to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Now Fred and I collaborated in the Curlew Valley research, but Fred extended his efforts much more broadly into the effectiveness of predator control on coyotes in different areas around the West. He’s done quite a bit of research in coyote behavior and started a large cage facility in which he must have scores of coyotes caged to study their behavior, their physiology, their nutrition, etc., in the southern part of Cache Valley (in Millville). And Fred has then expanded his staff and I think right now there must be – well I’m not sure how many people are at Millville – but here on campus we have three people involved in that research. And they’ve spread out; it’s now called a Predator Ecology Unit. So they’re working on a variety of projects. For example one of the people has just published a paper on the inter-relationship of wolves, coyotes and pronghorn antelope. And the deal is that wolves dominate coyotes and coyotes kill pronghorns. And so there is some evidence that when wolves are re-established they Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  8   �reduce coyote populations and thus reduce fawn mortality in pronghorn antelope. So they’re involved in a number of predator ecological issues. My earlier involvement, the earlier years in desert research has morphed into my most recent heavy involvement. In 1991 Congress passed the Global Change Research Act instructing the Executive Branch of government to conduct an assessment of the potential effects of climate change on the nation. The administrators of that program divided the nation into 17 regions – one of which was the nine state Rocky Mountain/Great Basin Region. I was asked to coordinate the assessment in that region. You see each of the regions then was asked to do the assessment because the Global Change Research Program wasn’t going to build a huge bureaucracy to do this. So they divided up the country and then went out into each of the regions and asked people in the regions to do the assessments. BM: Um-hmm. FW: So beginning in 1998 I began coordinating the Rocky Mountain/Great Basin Regional Assessment. First of all we looked at the entire weather record of all weather stations in the nine state intermountain regions to ascertain whether or not there had been climate change during the 20th century – which of course we found there was warming. In some areas, increase in precipitation, others not. In those areas where precipitation increased stream flow increased; in those areas where it did not, the streams did not increase in flow. So then we said, “Okay, the models now are predicting even more warming and in some areas more increased precipitation in the west during the 21st century if greenhouse gases continue to increase without being checked in some way, as predicted.” So we said, “Alright, given these increases what are the implications for water resources in the West, agriculture in the West, natural ecosystems in the West, outdoor recreation and tourism in the West?” And so we looked at all those things and projected on the basis of the predicted increases in temperature and precipitation; and of course we granted that these were provisional and that the effects that we were projecting only would occur if the climate did in fact increase as the general circulation models were predicting. So we then completed that and published the results in 2003. Now on the basis of my involvement in that assessment, I am now involved in a variety of things on global warming. I just finished editing and partially writing a book that’s to be published by the University of Utah Press and titled Climate Warming in the West/Evidence and Environmental Effects. As we are speaking here I am finishing a manuscript for a paper in the journal Conservation Biology on the ecological effects of global warming: both what has occurred to date, and what is projected given continued increase in temperature and changes in precipitation. I’m giving numerous talks on the subject, to a variety of groups, all the way from women’s clubs, Rotary clubs, to professional groups. I was just asked to give a talk to the Sierra Club in Utah at the end of May. I’m probably averaging one or two lectures a month on this subject, as well as writing a number of things on it. BM: What’s the kind of response you get from the groups? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  9   �FW: Most groups listen attentively and are reasonably receptive. BM: Um-hmm. FW: I haven’t talked to any groups of skeptics, so I haven’t heard from any naysayers. But I read the letters to the editor and the blogs from the naysayers, so I know what they’re saying and I have opinions on the positions they’re taking, but I haven’t had any critical comments in the talks that I’ve given. BM: Um-hmm. Is there a common question that, when you think of those audiences, a common question that comes up over and over again? FW: Well it is increasingly accepted that the globe is warming – after all, the weather records show it; and we know the glaciers are melting; and we know that snow caps in the western mountains are shrinking. So, I mean that’s there, if anybody has their eyes open you can’t deny that. Well, first of all, some people say, “Well the climate has always changed over the history of the earth, so maybe this is just natural.” So that’s one skeptical comment. The other is, “Well, okay, maybe the globe is warming but how can you say that humans are causing it?” So those are the two most frequent skeptical comments. BM: How do you answer some of those? FW: First of all, I’ll take the second of those. On the question of “How do you know humans are causing it?” The physics of the greenhouse effects has been known to science since the 1800s and it is well established that there is a very small component of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere – it’s a tiny component – but that is the major greenhouse gas in our atmosphere. And atmospheric physicists calculate that were not for that small amount of CO2 in the atmosphere our globe would be 54 degrees colder than it is and uninhabitable. So the effectiveness of carbon dioxide is far out of proportion to its extreme effect. So that’s why when the climatologists say, “Alright, carbon dioxide has been measured to increase by a third during the 20th century,” we ought to be concerned about changes in a compound that is so incredibly influential on our climates. And the predictions are that if we don’t do something to abate CO2 emissions, they are likely to increase – given how much the population is going to increase and how much national economies are going to increase that are supported by energy production – during the 21st century if we don’t do something there is a strong possibility that the carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere will double during the 21st century. So that’s the reason for the concern. Now there are other measurements that show that carbon dioxide now is a third higher than it’s been at any point in the last 650,000 years. So there are all sorts of scientific bases supporting the idea that CO2 is increasing at an accelerated rate to levels beyond what it’s been for hundreds of thousands of years, and the influence of carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas is well understood to science. So people who challenge that don’t know that science, and they’re challenging it on the basis really of ignorance. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  10   �[Stop recording] BM: Okay Fred, we’re back on. Let’s finish with a question on, in terms of the skeptics – what’s motivating the skeptics? FW: Skepticism is coming from three socio-economic groups in our society. One is energy companies, particularly the coal industry for example, but also the oil companies, who are scared to death that we’re going to enter into massive renewable energy production that will put them out of business. So it’s just a matter of record, well known, that the energy companies are paying our politicians – first of all they’re putting out dis-information on the issue and paying our politicians hopefully to resist any strong action on the issue. The second is (and I am now revealing my political inclinations), but the political conservatives are negatively disposed toward doing anything about climate warming because they’re concerned that it will mean organizing large government agencies and thereby increasing the size of government; and placing constraints on human actions which their political ideology is resistant to. That’s their point of view, so it’s fair enough. But that’s where some of the resistance is coming from. Then finally, I have to say it, it’s coming from some of the extreme religious groups. Some of whom are saying that, “Well God would not allow for these bad things to happen to our globe.” Or alternatively, some of them are saying that the “end times” the “second coming of Christ” is imminent, so those of us who have been properly religious will then be taken into heaven and others who have not will be destroyed with the earth. And that event is just around the corner, so there’s no concern with getting excited about the future of our globe. Now that’s only the extremists in the religious right and I must say that some of those people are now breaking away – and this is true, for example of a large collection of church pastors who are now pursuing the attitude that, “Well the earth was created by God and it is our responsibility to take care of it.” So that particular socioeconomic religious group is now in the process of change. So to look back over my career, I’ve spent my career in science, both basic and applied, I value it tremendously. And if I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I wouldn’t do anything different. I think science is one of the great accomplishments of the human intellect. I adopt as a personal principle that I don’t advocate policy because I fear that if I do it will raise some concerns about the objectivity of my science and trust in my science. So my view is that science is a service to policy. It provides an environment of fact, knowledge and information that enlightens policy-making. It’s up to the policy makers and the politicians to make the policy decisions, hopefully in the bright light of objective scientific knowledge. BM: Thank you. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Fred  Wagner     Page  11   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/48">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/48</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fred Wagner interview, 15 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource The interview contains information on Fred Wagner's childhood, moving around the nation, and interest in the outdoors. He discusses his goal to be a rancher and his experience working as a cowboy where he realized his interest in plants and animals. He then discusses his education at Southern Methodist University (SMU) and later at the University of Wisconsin (where Aldo Leopold was a professor, arriving shortly after his death). He discusses his views on the interface of science and policy, and his experience with such throughout his career doing scientific research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wagner, Frederic H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Wagner, Frederic H.--Interviews Wagner, Frederic H.--Career in Wildlife Research Utah State University. Dept. of Fisheries and Wildlife--Faculty--Interviews Animal populations--Research--Utah Population biology--Research--Utah Population biology--Research--Curlew Valley (Idaho and Utah) Deserts--Research Wildlife management--Research--Yellowstone National Park Predation (Biology)--Research--Utah Knowlton, Frederick Frank, 1934- Global warming Natural resources--Law and legislation Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Las Vegas (Nevada) Clark County (Nevada) Nevada Curlew Valley (Utah) Box Elder County (Utah) Snowville (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx4fd6FredericHWagner Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 15 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-15 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/bb0f10b88624e0796426bbd788b63136.pdf 6c0a19896b447a35742fc0418da57bc2 PDF Text Text �TO LOG ANl �BRIDGER ' S MOUNTAIN MEN Cache means buried treasure. Cache Valley got its name Irom the early trappers who cached their furs in the valley. The perfection of Cache Valley's summer climate, its unusua.Jly scenic seiHng, and the friendly informality of the people you'll meet will make your slay a pleasant one. - -.I �FOR YOUR The crisp, dry mountain air, the brilliant sunshine, the cold sparkling slreams dnd lakes, the green forests and canyons all invite you to outdoor activity. For swimming there's Logana Plunge; Hyrum Dam, scene of annual bodl races; Newton Dam which also boasts big trout, and Bear Lake. The Logan Golf and Country C lub is one of the most beautiful courses 10 be found anywhere. Riding horses can be obtained by phoning Dunbar Stables. There are over a dozen tennis courts in the valley. ��FOR YO UR 1<da~ Eleven floe modem motels and hotels offer the utmost In comfortable accommodations. Some have their own coffee shops. All lire located near eating establishments. Logan and nearly all the towns 01 the Valley have community parks complete with tables and benches, children's play equipment. ball diamonds and other recreaUontilleatures. Incomparably beautiful Loqan Canyon has 42 camp 9rounds and picnic ~reas with tables, sloves, and pure plped.ln water. --_ - "- I" . '.~ -.. ..- .~, ..... ~ . ~ ��BEAUTIFUL LOGAN CANYON 40 MILES I OF This is one of America's most memorable short drives. In the lorty miles from Logan to Bear Lake thera's fascinating variety of interest and superb beauty. This Is more thim a gigantic cleft through the Wasatch R/mge. It is a narrow oasis between overshadowing precipices skirted and hung with tal! firs and pines. The highway curves through luxuriant vegaI",tion arching over the sparkling mountain stream, Logan River. Tucked away unde r cool shade trees are delightful picnic and recreation areas. Stop and ellt your lunch here or pitch a lent and stay a week. The fishing is good, the setting is superb <'Ind the mountain air is wonder- fully invigorating. Visit Logan Cave, a 700 yard-long cavern. Climb to the Jardine Juniper a 3500 year old tree, which was ancient al the time Christ was born. Get a cold drink from Ricks Spring. Visit one of the high snow·fed lakes or take one of the side roads. You will be one of more than 900,000 persons to enjoy the canyon and Hs facilities this year. 10 ��The L D. S. Temple, standing on a terrace of prehistoric Lake BonneyUle, is one of the l,md marks of the valley. Nearly all of the labor necessary 10 erecl the massive structure was conlributed by Church membership. The Temple is 170 feet long by 95 feet wide and the lowers are 170 and 165 feel high. It 15 made of native slone and wood and Ihe cosl when buill was $600,000. It WM dedicated by Brigham Young in 1884. �ON SUNDAY ATTEND THE ~~~cuue~ In the heart of Logan City is the L. D. S. Tabernacle with its cool, spacious grounds. Erected in 1876 it has since been the primary headquarters for large church meetings, concerts, pag- eants, and civic gatherings. Its park provides a shady haven for harried summer shoppers, office w orkers, and children. �IF YOU LIKE THE ?teUYOU'll IIS~~ 4Ied . K E Thousands of fishermen try their skill each year on tl known 01 which are the logan River and Blacksmith f or;c nalive cutthroat, lind Rainbow. The world's record Germ River. In the neighborhood of 14,000 hunters annually COl and elk. Excellent duck and goose hunting is found in the mal side of the valley, Pheasants thrive throughout the Valley and make axe There is a $25.00 bounty on cougars In this arei exciting 01 all outdoor sports . .. ElK II HARD �~'Ze4He~ CACHE VALLEY } ' the sparkling trout streams of the Valley, best lr "<. Excellent ca tches dre mdde o f German Brown, ,rmao Brown, a 36 pounder was caught in Logan come to the mountains of Cache Valley for deer narshes and lowlands 01 Logan River on the west lxciting upland game hunting e very Autumn. lrea.. Many sportsmen conside r this the most �VI S IT UtdState~ ALMA MATER OF GR EAT SCIENTISTS Utah's Land-Grant University attrlle's students, sclentlsts and visitors Irom a score 0 1 ndtians. One reason is the eminence o f the institution in practical science. Utah State University Is one 01 the lop 2S American universities in the undergradua te training of distinguished scienhsts. Research 11.1 Utah Slate has yielded sig-oUieanl discoveries which have afleeled many countries. Utah Slate University is known <!IS the "Good Neighbor" to several foreign nations. Many professional staff members have gone abroad to participate w ith the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organizations and the United States' Departments 01 Slate and the Agricultural DepdTlmenl 10 such nations as Greece, Iran, iraq, Siam, Panama and Haiti. Utah Stale is 41so known as the "West Point of the West" because of its ROTC program and the success of its graduates in mil!lary and air science. Utah Slate has commissioned more than 1000 young men in the past /ive years. Utah State University offers a well balanced education through its seven Colleges and its two branch Col!eges, Snow at Ephraim, and College of Southem Utah a t Cedar City, and the Utah Agricultural Experiment S tation and the Cooperative Extension Service. The Utah Scientific Research Foundation also serves through the promotion 01 valuable inventive processes which have made vital contributions to Industry and national defense. Utah State has established II line repu tation with lis School of Graduate Studies. NE W STUDE NT UNION BUILDIN G ��CACHE VALLEY IS ZJtUf#e t6 &Mt1t It Is only natural thllt dairying should be the basis of Cache Valley's Industry. BecAuse the high annual rainfall kepi the valley floor green all summer the region was originally n",mad Grass Valley. It is an Idwl dairy ctll!le Imd milk producing IIrea. There are 15,000 cows with high production records on the job every day. Most are the hlllck <!Ind white Holsteins. These supply J.evllporated mill:: plants dfld one Swiss cheese plant Poultry production. Including EtQQS. and turkeys, provides on income of approximately 2 million doHors annually, An <!Ippiewood smoked turkey produced here demands premium prices from Qourmets throughout the country. All temper<'lle cHmate crops are grown In the valley. Notable IImong these ,us grains. The highest grade wheat In the U. S. has been grown here for two years in succession. Sugar beets, peas, beans, com, pollltoeS, and fruits are also commercial crops. ~ 7IJSu: Amdlgamaled Sugar Factory dt Lewiston. World's Idrqest Swiss Cheese Factory dt Amalga. Cache Valley Breeders Association at Logan - the ldrgesl a rtiflcldl insemination orqanizalion In the West. Condensed milk factories: "$ego" milk at Richmond, "Carndtion" mllk at Weilsville. CaHfornia Packing Company dt Smithlleld. �s~o (~fLK SOME Of (ACHE VAlLEY S IGRICUlTURH PROOUCT\ �VISIT WORLD'S LARGEST S~~'9~ "Miss Rocky Mountain," (Marris Hendricks, Richmond, Utah.) invites you to see Cache Valley's famous "Rocky Mountain" real Swiss cheese in the making. Try a sample as you tour the world's largest Swiss cheese factory. Cheese from this factory is shipped all over America. �The Cache Valley Breeding Association al Logan is nlliionally recognized for ils excellent breeding slock. This cooperative IIssocia· lion has over 14,£XXl members in five Intermountain stales. More than 70,000 cows annuIIlly lire bred through the artificllli Insemination method of this pllln!. Visitors lire welcome to look over its fine !1Ic!Hties. �Bear Lake Is the gem at the end of Logan It hils long been the week-end recreation center of m<'lny Cache Valley residents. There are sever<!ll resorts on the lake, complete with cabins, cllfes, bodting, swimming and other recreation aspects. P I CTURE CRED ITS : 1. 2. 3, 4,5,6,7, a, 9, to. 11 . 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21, 23, 24, 29. 33, 34, 35, 36, 3'1. 38, 42. Max 9,ullIOn Studio; 25, 28. 27. U{~h S,ue Co!l~g~; 22. Carl Felix; 211, GtOlge Q . 83 lcman. 30, 31. Cuhe Valley Dairy " ..""laUoo : 32, Cache V~lI cy Ihce dcr. " .. oda llon: 39, 40, 41, De ... ,,,. News: 43. 44. 45, 46. DeVe.e Helfrich: 47. John Chldc$ler: Picture. of Mountain Lak e. - U. S. Fore., Selvlce. Layo"', .nwork. co[o'pl •••• and prlntlng pl.,., hy S' «d', Prlmlng Pla,e Co . Prlll.'ed by J. P. Smith'" Sen. Thh booklel Is IpoIllOfcd by lbe CACHE COtJNTY COMMISSION, ' he LOGAN CITY COMMISSION, and .lIe CACHE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, Addre .. all inqulrj,.. '0 the Cache Ch.mbe, of Commerce, Logan. Utah . �1(J~S~ The Beaver Bow! area In LOQan Canyon is a skiers paTlllcllse. Here the snow Is protected from the sun until nearly summer. It Is easJly accessible by good highways. Busses also pick up the enthusiasts al appointed hours ond deliver them to the Bowl. Lunch can be obtained at the Lodge. For ice-skating, LoQan and many 01 the towns of the V<!IUey mainlelln several skating rinks. The largest of Ihese is in Central Pork, 2nd East and Center Street in Logan. ,/ - 'Id'"42 ·... ~ HI ... ..,. ,. '1': r �CACHE VALLEY IS ~ Cache Valley is cenlrdJly located. in the heart of a consumer market of 22,500,000 persons in the eleven w este rn slales. Transportation facilities are adequate ond rales afe favorable . Cache Valley has a surplus of young, well educa ted, stable, versatile, adaptable labor. Turnover is low. The re /He balanced lour season recreational facili ties. Cache VdJley hclS an altitude strongly in favor 01 add itional industrialization and will welcome all desirable industries. It has low cost pow er and water w ith resarves lor additional use. Inquiries are welcomed. A comprehensive brochure outlining indus trial possibilities in Cache Valley and a 22 minute 16 m/m color film afe available. Industrial CommWee Cache Chamber of Commerce P. O . Box 338 Logan, Utah I { ( I L \( , M,n"'ac."", .. WhOfC p<oduc .. ap~a, . '. "",,. ' .".<: , .," . ..... 't' • ',, •.•.• mOD£ODAY ., " .. , . ' . " arc: MODE OUIIY Co'p"",'on, Manufae,u ,e,. of ladl'" ... dy"o-wu" LOGAN<ACItE KNITTING MILLS. Make" of"U B"" ... - ucluol . c knit d,e.", •. PACK MANUFACTURING CO •. Manu flcture .. 01 .oll d•• wlng fUc. and 100m-!!nl"g dulc"'. LOGAN KNITTING MILlS. make .. of -Logln"" !! -. uolu.lve knh dr..." • . I)AIN~ MANUfACTUlUNG CO •• Manu'ac,urers of -Tubee •• f,- dbp"Y ,,~ulpmcn' 1'>1 yald .... dCI'Il'mcnu. EZRA C. LUNDAItL MFG. CO •• M.nuf.".... " .. of \.>Ind.ahll>alc lo.adcr-... ck<: •• Wlgom and hydruUc ur,., t· • ,I' �r_ I . ;: �CACHE VALLEY AccordinQ to QeolOQ'ists Cache Valley was once a large bay 01 ancient Lake Bonneville some 25.000 years ago of which the Great Salt Lake Is now but a remndn1. The shore lines on the east mountilin sides and deltils dre vivid evidences of the lake's actions during Its rise and JaiL The present location of LoQan on Main Street WdS under 700 feet of wdter ilt the highest elevlltion of the Ia-ke. The most ancient living thing here of 3000 years ago Is "The Old Man of The Mountain, JunIper jardine," located aoou t 16 miles up J..oqdn Canyon on Cottonwood Ridge. This juniper Tree was a sa.pllnQ' durlnQ' the reiQn 01 King Solomon of Bible times. It is considered the oldest living juniper Tree In the world. Its circumference is 26 feet. S inches, Cache Valley was discovered by Wm. Sublette. lim Bridger and other trappers 01 the Rocky Mounta-in Fur Company In 1824. Cache Valley became a popular plllce for trapping and a number of Cliches of furs were mllde here lind Illter tllken out on pack horses to the fur market at St. LouIs, Missouri. The valley was therefore named Cache Valley becllUse 01 the caching o! f~H~ here. Cache Valley W<'l$ settled III Mlluqhan's Fort (Wellsville) In 1856. LOQ'lIn. the Counly Sedl, was se111ed In 1859. LoQ(ln W nilmed dfler (lS LOQ(ln River. The river WilS nllmed Logiln by the tra-ppars. FrMklln, ilnother settlement 01 Cache V(llley, W located In 1860 ilS and became the !lTst perma-nent settlement of Idaho. � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/81">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/81</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 24-bit RGB, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi) display file is JPEG2000. Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-01-11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beautiful Logan and Cache Valley : home of Jim Bridger's mountain men Description An account of the resource Promotional travel brochure by the Cache Chamber of Commerce that discusses several attractions for visitors to see when they come to Cache Valley, Logan Canyon, and Bear Lake. Sponsored by the Cache County Commission, the Logan City Commission, and the Cache Chamber of Commerce. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cache County (Utah). Commission Logan (Utah). Commission Cache Chamber of Commerce (Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Logan (Utah)--Description and travel Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--Description and travel Cache County (Utah)--Description and travel Place marketing--Utah--Cache County Place marketing--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Travel literature Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Cache Chamber of Commerce papers, 1904-1999, COLL MSS 293 Series I Box 12 Fd. 5 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv54714">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv54714</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Manuscript Curator, phone (435) 797-0891 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Cache Chamber of Commerce papers, 1904-1999, COLL MSS 293 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BeautifulLogan Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1950s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/509f27206759d6edf1d7e77e23b54b41.mp3 34659bfa06a5d0b9d134ce7d3a5c4703 https://highway89.org/files/original/e566740ec0489f8f2fe614dca02881b6.pdf 2f1ecf5962716452b8083b8faff4bf9e PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Dennis D. Austin Place of Interview: Quinney Library, Utah State University, Logan UT Date of Interview: 18 February 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Tape Recorder, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Barbara Middleton; Dennis Austin; Randy Williams (8 March 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Dennis Austin discusses his career in the Division of Wildlife Resources and all the time in the field he spent and his role and opinions on various policies involved; he also talks about his role in influencing and teaching land owners about conservation easements. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) DA = Dennis Austin NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. As well, Mr. Austin edited/deleted some words/portions of the interview for clarity. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BA: [It is] Wednesday, February 18. We’re on the Utah State University campus in the Quinney Library Conference Room [conducting an interview for the] Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Project. My name is Barbara Middleton and our interview today is with Dennis Austin. Dennis, would you please introduce yourself and give us a little bit of your background, biographical information? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  1   �DA: Dennis Duane Austin and I was born on May 4, 1947 in Salt Lake City. I grew up in Salt Lake, came up to Utah State University in 1967 after spending two years at the University of Utah in the business or mathematics. And on the lark came up here and walked into the Dean’s office and said, “Who can I talk to?” And they sent me over to Dr. [George B.] Colthrap. Ten minutes later I was signed up in the Watershed program. BA: And at that time who was the Dean of Natural Resources? DA: The Dean of Natural Resources I think was Thaddeus Box. BA: That was Thad? DA: I believe it was Thad. BA: And Dr. Colthrap was a professor in Watershed Sciences. DA: He was. BA: Okay. DA: I graduated with a Bachelors in [19]’70, a masters in ’72. I worked briefly for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). I had a career with the Division of Wildlife [Resources: DWR] in Utah for about 30.5 years, with almost 22 of those years or so at Utah State University in a research capacity; the last nine or so years, as a biologist for the Cache Unit in Northern Utah. BA: Okay. DA: Retired about 2003, and since have continued to do many of the same things I was doing professionally, but now do them as a volunteer. BA: Back to your BLM reference – where did you work with them and what was your position? DA: Oh, it was just a summer internship up in Malta, Montana. BA: Doing what? DA: Range inventory. BA: And you mentioned the DWR – there’s a large part of that (22 years) where you are associated with USU and research. Can you tell us how that worked with DWR and USU? DA: That was an extremely unusual situation because it was a cooperative position in that the university [Utah State University] provided the facilities: the room, the research Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  2   �opportunities; and the Division of Wildlife paid my salary and directed the research issues. BA: Okay. DA: And my supervisors were first, Arthur V. Smith and then Phillip Urness and they were also in very unusual appointments in that they were paid half-time university and halftime the Division of Wildlife (even though they worked full time here at the [Utah State] University). BA: That was for 22 years, focusing on what areas? DA: Primarily big game/livestock relationships. This project began about, probably 1950 with Art Smith. And then later on after, oh probably somewhere around 1980, I changed the title of the project to “Wildlife Problems,” solving problems. We expanded our role from just habitat and animal relationships to problem-solving. For example, depredation was a very big part of my job for many years, in terms of research. BA: So it became part of something called “Wildlife Problems”? Has that evolved into anything else? DA: The whole project ended about 1994 when DWR ran into financial difficulties. BA: I just wasn’t sure if there was another unit that had picked up that issue. DA: After the project was eliminated by the Director, research in Utah (from the wildlife perspective) ended up on a consulting basis (like with BYU and the co-op unit here) and there was no further research being done (that I’m aware of) by DWR employees. Maybe on an in-house basis a little bit, but not much and not very technical. BA: So in that time that you were here, you obviously have spent time on the Cache National Forest, as well as in Logan Canyon. But before we get real specific to Logan Canyon, can you just give us an idea of the territory that you did cover? Let’s start with the largest and then we’ll focus down on the smaller, local scale. DA: Well as a research biologist at the university we just went where the research needed to be done. I had projects out in Uinta Basin, out near Dinosaur National Monument. I had projects out in the west desert on the Sheeprock Mountains. I had the depredation studies that went basically from Cache Valley and Rich County, clear down to Paragonah (in southern Utah), catching part of the area down by Price. [We did projects in the high Uintas] we put research sites all over the state. We had a really good mix. And my research experience was very broad. BA: In terms of those areas, like the Uinta Basin, was there a specific focus for being there? A specific wildlife or group of wildlife? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  3   �DA: Yes! Each research project had its own goals and research questions. The first one dealt with Pinion-Juniper habitat. The state and the Bureau of Land Management had been doing rehabilitation work for Pinion-Juniper for decades – clear cutting and chaining. And the question that we started with out there was, “Does it really help in terms of habitat and wildlife?” And that was the first major project I worked on. And then it just went from there. So there were a lot of projects! BA: And just another detail on the west desert – what were you doing out there? DA: That study was looking at summer range because most of our big-game ranges – the winter range is the controlling factor – whereas out on these desert ranges it’s the amount of summer range. And so from a wildlife management perspective we were trying to figure out carrying capacities, how it was limiting, deer diets and nutrition, and habitat selection. [After three or four years], we came up with, I thought, some very good conclusions. BA: Great. That’s helpful just to get an idea of how far ranging you were. Because what we are going to focus on today is looking at the Cache National Forest, specifically some of the work that you’ve done in Logan Canyon. Okay? DA: Okay. BA: So let’s move into that area. And again, 30 years you’re with this program, but the program is taking you all over the state. DA: It has. BA: So what were some of the problems that you were approaching in Logan Canyon and when you looked at wildlife? And again, I know its Logan Canyon and the forest and some other entities. DA: Let me back up just a half a step. BA: Okay. DA: Because one of your questions asks, “What is the first thing you can remember?” BA: Yes. DA: “In Logan Canyon?” When I came up here in 1967 I took a social dance class and I met my future wife. Probably the earliest memory I have of doing anything in Logan Canyon was a ski trip with her. We cross-country skied from Franklin Basin and ended up at dark at the Logan River and I carried her across the river! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  4   �[Laughing] BA: Oh, that’s great! Was she a skier? DA: We were skiers. She was a skier and I was beginning – that was probably my first memory. BA: And that’s cross-country skiing we’re talking about? DA: That was cross-country. BA: So, tell me about the gear you used on cross-country skiing in that – DA: Still have it. BA: Do you really? DA: Yes. BA: Wooden skis? DA: Yes, wooden skis. And this year the lamination’s finally started coming off and I had to retire them – and that was just a month ago! BA: [Laughing] And that was 1967? DA: Yes, so basically 42 years on wooden skis. BA: That’s great. DA: Okay. BA: So that’s your first memory. And Ann – we’re talking about Ann Austin? DA: Ann Berghout at that time. BA: Would you spell that last name? DA: B-E-R-G-H-O-U-T. BA: Thank you. That helps our typist. Ann Berghout, who is now Ann Austin and is the Assistant Provost? DA: Vice Provost. BA: Vice Provost at USU? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  5   �DA: Vice Provost over Faculty Development and Diversity. BA: Thank you. DA: Okay, now. My research in Logan Canyon was minimal, but I did do a lot of data collection, especially as a biologist. BA: Tell us about the data collection. DA: I always felt like our biologists were not collecting as much data as they could have, and as much detailed data. So when I took over the biological position I did things that either hadn’t been done in years, or I began new projects. One of them was snowshoe hares. Nobody knows anything about snowshoe hares, basically, there’s very little data collected on them. But I set up plots on snowshoe hares and began looking at track counts and pellet group accumulations over winter and kept that data going until I retired and then the Forest Service subsequently has picked that up and is using those plots. Those are probably the longest term set of data that we have on snowshoe hare in the state, and maybe the intermountain region. BA: Hmm. DA: And those data are available. I also started setting up wing barrels for forest grouse. BA: What is that? DA: In other words, when hunters harvest birds and come out – if you have a wing barrels set up, you can request that they deposit their wings in the wing barrel. I started doing that to try to keep track not only of populations, but to determine the ratio of ruffed to blue grouse or dusty grouse. BA: So ratio of species. DA: I kept that up for ten years as well, and those data are available. As soon as I retired, that ended! I also set up a series of over winter big-game transects which looked at browse utilization by species and pellet group accumulations. And I not only did big game: deer, elk and moose, but I also did rabbits, to get a really good idea of the relationship and the number of animals on the range and the habitat utilization. I did that for ten years or so and as soon as I retired they (DWR) didn’t do that anymore either! BA: That’s interesting – you comment on that – with the data collection is that there was not enough being done. What was it like prior to your establishing some of these? DA: [With] the snowshoe hare, there was absolutely nothing being done. The forest grouse probably amounted to checking a few hunters from our law enforcement people. Now, on the other hand, there’s been a forest grouse check station at Blacksmith Fork for many, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  6   �many years; and I continued to do that and I think that’s been more or less continued since. That’s probably the longest set of data anywhere in the state (or maybe anywhere), in terms of harvest to forest grouse from a check station standpoint. And those data are available for many years. Then I also restarted the deer check station in Logan Canyon. They’d run it back in the 1960s maybe, or the 1970s a little bit, and then because of one year where they [DWR] had a couple of car accidents at the check station they quit doing it. And so in 1994 when I took the position I re-upped with quite a bit of objection [with them] saying, “This isn’t going to work, you’re going to run into accidents,” and that sort of thing. So I put out a dozen good signs that slowed the traffic way down and we ran that check station every year for ten years [without any problems or accidents.] I think that’s still being run. The changes in the populations of deer being harvested are enormous and that data set is clearly shows that, clearly shows that. Those data are also available. BA: Give us an example of what kind of changes you see, like in the deer harvest. DA: Well, I’m now recalling from memory, but some of the earlier data – and I worked at the check station in the mid-80s (I think it was 1984). We would check 200 deer coming out on the opening weekend. As I remember, there were data back in the 1960s when they ran that station and they checked 400 deer on opening weekend, more or less. You’ve got to go back because we had these severe winters that not only crippled our deer herd and killed them, but they annihilated the winter range because of the extreme overuse. Then because of the lack of livestock grazing the browse couldn’t get going. The competition wasn’t favorable to browse production which sustains big-game winter. Anyway, we had the die off in ’83-’84; we had the die off in ’91-’92. The ’91-’92 was the last really major statewide die-off and we’ve never recovered from it. And so when I was a biologist – the ten years that I ran it – we ran a check station there on opening weekend and instead of 200 deer we were checking somewhere between 60 and 90, somewhere in that range. Then we’ve had more problems in Logan Canyon with the increased traffic, the speed of the traffic, highway deaths/highway mortality. Now I think this last year they checked somewhere – they’ve been checking somewhere between 30 and 40 deer the last few years. I think they had 28 this year. The number just continues to go down. All these longevity data sets are all available. BA: Now when you are at a deer check station as the biologist, what are you checking for? I mean what are you looking at, specifically? Are you looking at fat? Teeth? Tongue? DA: [Laughing] Well years before, at most check stations all they (DWR) do is count the number of deer. BA: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  7   �DA: And that’s all they do: buck, doe but that’s about it. As a research biologist working out on the desert – the Sheeprock Mountains or out in the Uinta Basin on Diamond Mountain area – we did quite a bit more. When I started to do the Logan Canyon check station, I started collecting considerably more data when the deer would come in. I look at the number of antler tines, spread of the antlers, the age of the animal for sure. BA: From teeth? DA: From dental. We were collecting teeth for [inaudible] and then I developed a fat index that is an index to physical condition of deer going into the winter (which is at the zyphoid process) and then there were a couple of other measurements that I just can’t bring to mind right quick. Anyway, the state adapted the method for at least a few years. I know that throughout at least the northern region everybody was doing it the same way and they were using seven pieces of data that we were collecting. For several years we did it all the same, but I don’t know what’s being done now. BA: Now mule deer aren’t just in Utah; so when you look at your partners where the mule deer population is, were they watching what you were doing in terms of the data collection and starting to mimic that? Were you leading the edge here? DA: I don’t know. I know that I published that paper on fat depth at the zyphoid process, and I know that it was used in Utah. I had a few inquiries from Colorado. I know it was used with white-tail deer in either Minnesota or Wisconsin for awhile, but I don’t know whether it was picked up and how permanently it was used. It’s kind of one of those things that, you know, it’s good to know but what are you going to do with it? I was trying to tie it into when to start over winter feeding? You know because of severe winter, when do you start feeding deer in the winter? And that was my idea because if you’ve got a deer herd that’s going into the winter in skinny condition you may want to start a little earlier; your criteria may loosen up a little bit. BA: And these winter feeding stations . . . . can you give us idea of where some of these might be or have been? DA: The Olympic year was 2002 and in 2002 during the Olympics, all the officers in the state basically, were tied into the Olympics and so I was up here basically alone. If you remember we had record snowfall that year. BA: Right. DA: We had 22 inches in the valley in one day, and more on the mountain and I was the only one here. I was working – I don’t know, 100 hour weeks [laughing] trying to keep up with all the difficulties and the problems. That was also the year that we fed deer in various stations and it took a little bit of gearing up to get the state on board to do it, because they had to authorize it. But that year we kept track of what was being fed and we kept track of die-off rates. And that particular year feeding was very effective in survival rates. I have those data. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  8   �BA: And so you’re basically feeding at the mouth of the canyons in Cache Valley? DA: Mouth of the canyons. We had about 12 or 13 feeding locations that were authorized; we had three over in Rich County. It really made a difference on those sites in terms of survival. BA: And you’re feeding what? Alfalfa? DA: We fed primarily alfalfa and that’s been recommended for years because that’s what we fed our tame deer. We fed them alfalfa a second and third crop ad libitum (meaning as much as they wanted), and then we would feed a little bit of deer pellets or lamb growth pellets which are basically the same thing. Deer pellet composition is just a little bit different, but the land gore pellet worked great and it was commercially available. And then we would use rolled barley for ice cream. That’s what we used to train them and to tame them down because they would eat it out of your hand with the rolled barley. It was just a favorite. BA: Interesting. Because I have seen feeding stations around the valley and I know there’s one in North Logan at Green Canyon. DA: Correct. BA: Yeah. DA: Yes, and we still do that. We still feed them on occasion if the conditions are right and the Division of Wildlife approves it, and then we have volunteers that are set up. And it helps, it really helps. The earliest feeding that was done on the Cache was done in the 1940s, and I believe the researcher was Rasmussen. BA: Okay. DA: They fed in what used to be the deer pen facility, just south of Green Canyon, between Logan and Green Canyon. There’s about 120 acres in there that was sold to Logan City about 2004 for a cemetery and other things. That was the first feeding experiment that I’m aware of anywhere in the west. They fed on the range out there – and they would feed up to 1000 head of deer a year on this range. Then they kept track of their losses and that was the very first feeding experiment, and obviously was successful. BA: And as an experiment – again, is the question we’re looking at – “how do we get a healthier population during the winter?” DA: Yes. BA: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  9   �DA: And feeding works. There is absolutely no question about the fact that feeding works. Phil Urness did a summary of feeding that had been done in the west about 1995 – that’s a published paper. Then I have the exact data from our feeding experiments in 2002. Then Chris Peterson, a PhD (I think she’s finished with her PhD at USU now) has done – that’s what her PhD was about: the effects of feeding on wildlife deer populations. The effects on their habitats, and how well they’ll survive and reproduction, that sort of thing. We pretty much know what it does and if you have a bad winter and you run out of browse, feeding makes a big difference. If it’s just a normal winter, it’s not going to really make much of a difference in terms of reproduction success. BA: How does it affect other wildlife? Is there any connection with available forage or movement of animals? DA: Well, there’s always the competition with elk. Because elk are the competitors – they’ll go out and out compete anything we have on the mountain. They’ll out-compete deer, they’ll out-compete moose, they’ll out-compete pronghorn. The only thing they can’t outcompete, basically, is bison. And the reason is that with most of our wildlife species they don’t herd up in large groups like elk do. But elk in the wintertime are more sociable, they get in large groups, and then they get into an area and they camp. They just kind of camp on an area and chew it up and then move on to the next area. Whereas for instance, mule deer will walk in small groups of two or three or four, or even larger groups sometimes, but they’ll walk through an area and take a bite of a shrub here, and a bite of a shrub there and just kind of move through. Whereas an elk will get in their groups and they’ll find, “Oh! I like this bush.” And they’ll eat it until it’s all gone. [Laughing] That’s one of the major differences and that can create conflict between those species. Moose tend to stay up higher, but moose tend to do the same thing, except they’re usually single; moose will hunker down all winter in a very small area and just stay there all winter and just eat whatever is there. BA: So, the other question I guess is there a down side to feeding? DA: Well you do have disease problems occasionally, but not very often; and you do have habitat destruction in the vicinity of the feeding grounds. BA: What do you mean? DA: Because they just use everything. It’s just basically you over-utilize the shrubs and it causes decadence and then usually mortality of the shrubs. But the deer pen property is kind of interesting because it was purchased in 1937 for research. The reason they purchased it is because the early guys out there noticed that this is one of the two major areas on the Cache Valley bench where the big game (primarily mule deer) stayed in the winter time, so that’s why the state purchased it. The other area was the Millville face. That tends to dry off – not dry off – but the snow tends to melt on it sooner and you have more open ground all winter and that’s why it was purchased; it was a very effective winter range for many years. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  10   �It was used by research. Art Smith did the very first piece of research up there in 1947 and he compared areas grazed by livestock and areas ungrazed by livestock on deer winter range. That was the first big game/livestock relationship study, I believe, ever recorded. I think that was published in 1949. But it came directly from that area and then I went back and re-did his data in the mid-[19]80s (I think that was published in [19]84). I compared his data – same ground, same technique, but the change had been that livestock grazing had ended decades ago. So the habitat had gone back to a situation where the differences in plant communities between where his old fence line was were almost gone. There were almost no differences after 30 years of utilization without livestock – deer utilization in the winter; livestock utilization in the spring. BA: Interesting. So these two pieces of land: the Millville and Logan deer pens were purchased by DWR, and that’s because you’re saying the face melts off so it’s an easier place for the deer to herd up; better vegetation because of that? DA: Well, in the winter time it melts, leaving the ground open and allowing the deer to move around. And it has a little bit warmer micro-climate, which makes a difference in the winter time. The Millville face and the face up here between Green and Logan Canyons (which is sometimes called “Saddle Mountain”) [Stop and start recording] [Tape 1 of 2: B] BA: This is [Barbara Middleton, I’m here with] Dennis Austin, we’re on Tape 1 and we’re on side 2. And this is February 18, continuing our discussion. DA: If you go out on the Valley View Highway, toward the Wellsville Mountains and pull off the road and look back during the winter on the Cache range, you can see Saddle Mountain baring off of snow before any of the other mountain ranges in the area, except for the Millville face. The Millville face tends to bare off at about the same rate. Very interesting pictures. BA: So you have a weather condition there and you also have pre-existing patterns in the wildlife that they’re already coming down to those areas probably for those very reasons. DA: That’s correct. BA: So no other downsides then to the feeding operations? DA: Costs. The costs almost never justify what you pick up in survival. The costs are just enormous, even with free man-power it becomes extremely costly. If you have organizations such as the Mule Deer Foundation or the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation that are supplying the money to run the feeding operation then it helps everyone. But the costs are just prohibitive to do it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  11   �BA: So those might be some of your partners then, in that. DA: You have to have the partners in feeding. BA: Are there any other partners that would help– would the cities assist in any way? DA: Oh, sometimes; private organizations sometimes do, ranchers do. It’s pretty variable, depending on what the interest is. You could just about have any group volunteer to help, and they do. BA: Even like scouts? DA: Scouts have helped; Pheasants Forever have helped, Audubon I think has helped. So it’s just a matter of who is interested and wants to put a little money into it. BA: Just so our listeners can understand the feeding operation, you are via truck delivering the food to the sites on a daily basis? A weekly basis? DA: A daily basis. BA: A daily basis. So all those sites have to be accessible in any kind of weather? DA: Right. So you have to be able to go up on a vehicle. Now on a couple of occasions we stock-piled materials away from the road. The guys went in there on snowmobiles and daily took out a little bit out of the feed stock. But that was only one case. Generally speaking, you have to have access. BA: So what time of day do you re-stock this? DA: Oh, it doesn’t matter – just when the volunteers have time. BA: Okay. DA: In the evening is usually the case, but some people did it in the morning. BA: It’s interesting to me because we have one of those in North Logan where there is food being put in and I go up and see that it’s there, but I didn’t know what the parameters were with it. But that’s fairly serious when you’re talking about the snowstorms, like you’re mentioning in 2002 – DA: Yes. BA: -- significant snows like that and you have animals dependent on the food brought out. DA: That’s right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  12   �BA: The dinner bell. DA: It was a very drastic situation because we had all the factors line up: we had massive over-winter loss on the Cache National Forest that year. It was interesting, they got all ready for the Olympics and the storm was supposed to come in and drop all this snow in Salt Lake, but it didn’t make it to Salt Lake. It dropped it all in Cache Valley. And it was such a heavy storm – there are some people that think there was cloud seeding that went on for the Olympics, and that was one of the reasons that it was such a heavy storm. But that’s never been verified. BA: And there’s a very distinct line where that snow – DA: That’s exactly right. BA: Yes, yes. DA: We really got hammered! BA: That’s very interesting. You know, it’s interesting too for me to look at the transition of the research when you’re saying there were other things you could’ve collected for other kinds of reasons. And that’s helpful, I think, for the listener to understand how that transition happens. But you also mentioned then that as you leave and as either people retire or as policies change, that some of those activities don’t continue. Could you talk a little bit about that? DA: Yes, that’s pretty true. We have transitioned in natural resources. Logan Canyon is a good example from the biologist in charge spending most of their time in the woods and in the field, to spending most of their time in the office and on the computer. This is a transition that has taken 30 years. When I retired, I was probably the only wildlife biologist left in the state that spent at least half my time in the field. I was probably spending 65-70% of my time in the field. I was shocked when my colleagues were saying how little time they spent in the field anymore. An example was one of my colleagues (and I won’t say who) we were talking about his work and he says, “Well, I do the same job you do, but I’m only spending 10% of my time in the field anymore.” And that was the figure he gave, 10%. I was dumbfounded because biologists just did not use to do that. Because it takes so much time to deal with questions, and public, and telephones and trying to keep up with the bookwork and the computers – I wouldn’t do it! And didn’t do it. But it’s a real transition. So when a biologist sets up transects and data collection means, the new biologist probably doesn’t have the time to do it, plus the fact that the new guys taking over do not have the background in knowing how to do some of these methods. BA: Why is that? DA: They just didn’t learn. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  13   �BA: So the NR training has changed? DA: The NR training has changed and we don’t teach field methods very much. Summer Camp did at USU. Summer Camp is gone. We just don’t teach field methods hardly at all anymore. A good example is when Chris Peterson started her doctoral study and needed to learn how to measure browse and vegetation in the field, I was the one that taught her. Not the State Division of Wildlife because there’s nobody that knows how to do it. BA: And normally a student like that would have received that training somewhere in there. DA: You would think, but it’s not being taught hardly anymore – anywhere that I am aware of. Because we don’t use it anymore. We don’t use it, we don’t go out and we don’t collect browse transects, we don’t determine over-winter use. We probably don’t even collect pellet group samples to determine density of deer on winter ranges. We don’t look at the range conditions like we used to, and it’s because we just don’t have the expertise or the time to do it as biologists. BA: So it’s an expertise and experience factor, but it’s also time and cost? DA: Time and cost. We have switched over from field work to data sets that we use instead. And instead of having the biologist go out every year and look at his range, we have the range trend crew which looks at the area every five years. So every five years we get a piece of data that looks at long-term trends, but we have no idea what’s going on in those intermediate years. Instead of going out in the field and looking at elk and trying to do moose like I used to do and classify them, now we use helicopter counts and that’s what we rely on. Helicopter counts are great: they give us some of the best data we can possibly get. But that’s what we rely on because it’s quick, it’s easy. It’s very expensive but it’s effective. So we use helicopter counts to count elk and moose. And that works extremely well, it gives us good data sets, and then we don’t do anything else. BA: Well, exactly. When you talk about the deer in the previous station data that you collected – you’re getting the number, but you’re not getting the quality. DA: Yes. BA: So you know, quantity, but not quality of a population. DA: Right. We use harvest numbers and modeling to determine our populations. But the relationship of the number of animals and the range conditions is not looked at except every five years. And then only during the summer – kind of a situation that only gives us long-term trends. And the long-term trends are not good. That’s true for Logan Canyon. We are losing our browse and our vegetation and our carrying capacity for deer a little bit every year. In the 1950’s, Art Smith stated that curl-leaf mountain mahogany was providing the (now I’m trying to remember exactly how he said it) – it was one of the top three, if not the number one browse species in terms of winter diet for mule deer on the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  14   �Cache unit. Now you’d have to find a very big mule deer to reach that vegetation because it’s all been highlined. BA: Right. DA: And now the elk have used it up to the point that they can hardly reach it. The moose are having a hard time too. So we have lost that vegetation, not because of over-use, but just because of the maturity of the stands; because curl-leaf mahogany does not reproduce. But the point is that we are gradually losing the carrying capacity of many of our big game winter ranges. Logan Canyon is a good example where we have lost considerable carrying capacity. You go up on the mountain and you look up there and you see junipers all over the place – but there is nothing else. There is very little understory left under it because it has all been utilized extremely heavily, then you get decadent plants that are low in productivity, no reproduction and then you get mortality. And it’s hard to get it back. BA: So you’re talking about major stand structural changes? DA: Major stand structural changes, yep. Also whenever we had fires on our winter ranges, we end up with cheat grass. As you know from experience trying to plant, it takes a lot of effort to re-plant browse and often we don’t get much success. I know of places where we have replanted areas, oh five or six times, and still have almost nothing coming back. A lot of it is because of the difficulty of south and west facing slopes that dry out quickly and then the competition with the non-native weedy species. BA: So it sounds like a wave that is just getting stronger and larger and almost – I mean what does it take to turn that wave? What does it take to make a major change? DA: Well, the best thing that we can do on most of these ranges is to re-incorporate livestock grazing. Because it was livestock grazing that got us our good winter ranges. Then as we developed we gradually removed livestock from our winter ranges and built houses or we just – on the Forest Service grounds, some of the BLM ground – we just don’t graze it anymore because of the difficulties of highway traffic in the bottom of the canyons. It just doesn’t get grazed. Most of our foothill ranges are a climax community as a grassland. If you go way back to when the pioneers came into the Salt Lake Valley and a few years later up here in Cache Valley, our foothill ranges were grasslands and there were no deer because they needed browse to sustain them in the winter time. It was the livestock grazing that created the browse complement. Then as livestock were reduced (beginning about 1935), we gradually lost our browse complement in many areas. BA: Why was the reduction in 1935? DA: The mud rock slides of the 1930s from overgrazing caused all of a sudden land managers thinking to go to more of a conservative grazing strategy, especially for the Forest Service. We had the mud rock slides and they did contour trenches on mountains (which you can still see in places). So watershed became more important than livestock Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  15   �production and that’s when grazing numbers began to decline. They’ve continued to decline even to today because of those kinds of concerns; erosion and over-utilization. Riparian and adjacent habitats are extremely important also. BA: So at the mudslide point in 1935 – DA: In that era. BA: In that era, in that time period – you’re talking about the Wellsville concern? Would that be one of the examples with the overgrazing on the Wellsvilles? DA: Well, I think it was really broad-spread. In that time period, every landowner that could, had livestock. We were running cattle and sheep on these mountains to the point where they were creating dust areas on the meadows in the summer. It was just extremely overused. And it was not just Utah, it was the intermountain area, totally. If there was a blade of grass, watch out! It was probably going to get eaten. [Laughing] But it did create winter range for us. That winter range gradually increased from, from when the pioneers first came here, probably reached a peak right in the 1930s someplace in terms of development. But our deer population hadn’t caught up with it yet. So our deer population probably maxed out in the 1940s. It took a few years to catch up with all that vegetation productivity. Of course we had some bad winters in there too, which kind of reduced those herds and kept them down. Then once the deer population got really heavy, then they started overutilizing that winter range forage base which caused it to reduce gradually. Not only from lack of reduction in livestock use, but from over-utilization by deer. So those two factors. BA: Okay. [Stop and start recording] BA: Alright, we’ve turned the tape back on again. And I’d like Dennis to mention – he mentioned early on that he was born and raised in Salt Lake – but was there any connection with any family land use traditions that you can think of? DA: Not directly, but indirectly, yes. My father came back from the war. He and his brother found a stream up near Coalville. It was the south fork of Chalk Creek. At seven years old I began fishing in that stream on private property. I’ve continued to fish that every year, with the land owner’s permission since (and got to know them very well). In about 1995, I first started talking to the family about putting their land into a conservation easement. Last year they put half of it in – about 2500 acres – and this year they’re planning to put the rest of it in. BA: That must be gratifying! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  16   �DA: That was kind of my long-term connection with them. They thanked me for it. They said, “You are the first one that ever suggested this.” So that’s a connection. Then about 1993 I sat my family down because we’ve been saving money for about ten years, we had an old van and we needed to replace it and we also found a piece of land up in Wyoming that was for sale that I really liked. So I sat the family down and asked them, “We’ve got $8,000 in the bank, how should we spend it?” And the kids said, “That’s not a question!” [Laughing] We bought 40 acres up in Wyoming! BA: Great! DA: I’ve written about that. That became a family connection that has done our family tremendous good. BA: And whereabouts is that? DA: Oh, that’s just inside the Wyoming line on your way to Jackson on the little stream called Cold Creek. BA: And when you mention that you’ve written about that, where -- ? DA: Oh, that’s in my Herald Journal writings. BA: Okay. It’s interesting because you open that up with direct and indirect connection with family, but your father got you started fishing. You must be very proud of what that grew into as far as working with the family. DA: Oh yes. My daughters are better fly fisherman than I’ll ever be – they’re better than my sons! [Laughing] BA: You’ve returned to that stream with them? DA: Oh yeah. Every year for – I was seven – so it is 54 years. And good relationships – I see the land owner almost every year. Of course, the original landowner has passed on and now we’re looking at his sons (which are also very old now). But it looks like they’re going to get it all into an easement. BA: That’s great. DA: So, nice piece of protection. BA: So it’s not only your immediate family, it’s also families that you connect with – in this case, through a landscape connection with the creek. DA: Sure, oh sure. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  17   �BA: Can you just explain for our listeners that are not in natural resources what a conservation easement is? What it means to that family and what it means to the landscape there. DA: Sure. Conservation easements started about 1994 in Utah (there might have been a few before that, but not many). What it is a landowner has a bunch of land, usually contiguous (like maybe anywhere from 40 acres, to 10,000 acres). Then this individual decides that instead of having this land available for development (which basically all our private land will become), they decided to retain this land as an agricultural base. So they contract with an agency or an organization, such as Utah Open Lands, or Nature Conservancy, or Utah Forestry and Fire Control, or Division of Wildlife and they set up a conservation easement so that the buyer of the easement buys the development rights of the land. Once the development rights are bought, that land can no longer be developed. But the landowner has the complete control as to what he wants to develop on it; so if he wants to eventually put cabins on it (five cabins, two cabins, one cabin, no cabins), roads – the landowner says what will happen to this land down in the future and puts those restrictions on it. Then the conservation agency buys the rest of the development rights. The landowner receives the money for those development rights (usually at about 75% of the appraised value of those developments) and then it becomes a permanent piece of agricultural or range land that preserves our environment and our agricultural base. For many landowners they don’t want to see it developed. Some of them want to see it developed a little bit for their kids and maybe their grandkids, but they want the agricultural base to retain it’s integrity. That’s the reason that we started developing these easements and now they’re becoming very popular. Evan Olsen did the very first one here in Cache Valley, from an agricultural standpoint. There was one before that, but it wasn’t for agriculture it was just for land preservation. BA: And with this family, they were obviously interested in protecting that landscape in perpetuity – DA: Correct. BA: -- so the parents at that time, and then the children, were in agreement? DA: The parents had passed away before they began to talk about this easement. But the two brothers and three sisters (I believe that’s correct), they decided they wanted to keep it in a family agricultural ranch where they could raise livestock. It takes about 5,000 acres of rangeland, with some irrigated cropland for hay and so forth, to be able to make a living on the land; about 5,000 acres is what it takes. A family can make a living on that land, and once it’s sold into an easement, it will retain that ability into perpetuity. BA: Now, have you worked on other conservation easements? DA: I haven’t worked directly on very many, but I’ve sure encouraged a lot of land owners to do it. When I ran for the legislature (and that was 2002, I believe, or 2003), there was almost nobody signed up to put their lands in conservation. Because they didn’t understand it. They were in control of whatever they wanted and that was one of the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  18   �tenants of what I ran on. By the time I got done (even though I lost by a landslide), we had 40 or 50 people that were interested in putting their lands into conservation easements. And that has continued. We have more people applying for it than there is money available. BA: Right. DA: To buy them. BA: Right, interesting. That, again, must be very exciting from a wildlife biologist perspective, to see those parcels. DA: Oh yes, being protected. BA: Right. DA: You know when John White did his in the south end of the valley – that was the first really big one that was being done. There’s one being done over in Bear Lake valley – probably I shouldn’t give names. BA: That’s fine. DA: I think it’s 2,000 acres, and that’s been encouraged. Then there’s a bigger landowner over there that owns about 7,000 acres that I just talked to a few weeks ago. He said, “Well, I’m thinking pretty seriously about it now, but I want to see what this one does.” Then there’s one over on the east side of Bear Lake that is in an extremely highly wildlife productive area that the family has been working on for several years – I have written letters for. That looks like that’s finally going to go. That’s extremely expensive because it has shoreline associated with it. BA: Oh, sure. DA: So we’re getting a few. If we had more money from the state or other agencies, we’d probably have a lot more of them. BA: But it could be a partnership between the state, and you also mentioned TNC (The Nature Conservancy). DA: It’s really variable as to who holds the conservation easement, who buys it. BA: Okay. DA: Whoever has the money to buy it will buy, and then they hold it. And I’ve never seen one reversed. The landowner can sell it, but the conservation easement stays on the deed perpetually. I have never seen one reversed. It would take an enormous amount of money to get one to reverse. I’ve seen them changed – where they’ve set up an easement on a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  19   �parcel of land and then decided that they wanted to expand it. So they re-write the easement; eliminate the first one and re-write the second one. BA: So expand it to include more land? DA: To include more land. BA: So like an addendum to the original? DA: Correct. But that’s the only case I’ve seen it changed. And I’ve never seen one reversed. BA: Interesting. And then just one last question on conservation easements with Utah – where are we in terms of the national perspective on easements? Do you know? DA: I guess I’m really not sure where we’re at on the national basis. We’re probably about as far along as other places. I know back east they’re concerned about agricultural production in certain areas has become so critical that they are now – cities and towns are going out and buying conservation easements just to maintain agricultural base near cities. Because the development has become so broad; so widespread. Where are we at in Utah? I think we’re doing pretty good in this state. I’ve always thought – and what I proposed was – for every acre of land that is developed, we should put an acre of land into an easement for range or especially agricultural production. But that hasn’t happened yet. You know, we’re losing about 500 acres in Cache Valley a year, and we’re almost getting that much in conservation easements now. So we’re getting closer. BA: So you’d like to see a 1:1 ratio? DA: Yes, I would. BA: Thank you. That’s a little bit of a diversion, but – DA: It was. BA: Very interesting in terms of what’s happening in Cache Valley. Especially something that was a connection for you early on and how that has translated into policy, and especially long-term policy. So thank you for answering all of my questions on that. DA: [Laughing] You’re asking a lot more than I ever expected. I thought I would be out of here in ten minutes! [Stop and start recording] [Tape 2 of 2: A] BA: This is Barbara Middleton, I am here with Dennis Austin. We are on Tape 2, side 1, and this is our February 18, 2009 interview. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  20   �What I’d like to move into now is a look at policies that have impacted some of the areas of Dennis’ work. One of the things I’ve asked him to explain is a little bit about state’s authority. And then also the idea of what would be some of the policies that would be very helpful in terms of wildlife in Logan Canyon. But let’s start with state’s authority. DA: Well, this is a complicated issue because the way that the United States is set up, the rules and regulations of land and wildlife management may not have been the best way. Because the states were given the authority to manage the wildlife, and that’s their perusal; but the land management agencies manage the land. Sometimes, the two are not exactly compatible because of the people use factor. From a wildlife perspective, if you manage land particularly for wildlife you generally eliminate people use. A good example of this is on our wildlife management areas; in about 1996 I initiated a program where these wildlife management areas were on big game winter range (such as the Millville face, such as the Richmond wildlife management area, and then the one over in Rich county). We began to exclude people use totally from December 1 through April 31 to maximize the use and availability of those lands for wildlife, because that’s what they were purchased for. If you could eliminate all people use (at least at critical times) on the Forest Service and the BLM, you would maximize your opportunity for wildlife. But you can’t do that because you’ve got the people factor in there and you have to provide for recreation. So it becomes a balancing act for the Forest Service to try to manage their lands so that they are providing for people but also for wildlife resources. One of the examples that we dealt with in terms of developing land planning and policy was with the Forest Service about eight or nine years ago when they were in one of their planning regimes. The snowmobilers in the winter wanted to open up the Temple Fork and Spawn Creek area – totally open up to snowmobiling. Well, from our aerial surveys of (we’ll talk about elk, but also moose to a lesser degree) we found that that’s where a very large herd of elk stayed all winter. They stayed in that Temple Fork and we knew that they would be moved out by snowmobile use. I’d been going up there on my skis in the Spawn Creek area since at least the mid-1970s. I skied up there every year and the elk would use the creek as a travel lane when the snow got deep. They would sit up there in those curl-leaf mahogany stands. I think we convinced the Forest Service to leave at least part of that area excluded from snowmobile use, to maintain some wildlife habitat that we knew was heavily critical to our elk up in that area. So, that was one example where we came together and I felt like the agencies worked together pretty good. BA: Are there any other examples in Logan Canyon that you can think of? DA: That’s the only one that really came to fruition that really seemed to work for everyone. I think that the snowmobiling group kind of got on it and said, “Yeah, we can back off a little bit here.” Now the use has increased so much from the skiers and the snowshoers, I’m not sure that it’s that effective anymore. Because when I used to go up there, I’d go up there on my skis and I did my curl-leaf mountain mahogany study up Spawn Creek and it went for a full year. I’d go up and collect samples of the trees for nutritional Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  21   �analysis on a bi-weekly basis. I’d go up there and ski up one day and then I’d come back two weeks later and I would ski over my same tracks. There was nobody else up there – nobody! There were no snowmobiles – they were almost non-existent – and no other skiers because I was the only one. I would do that all winter and once in a while I’d cut another ski track, but it was really unusual. Usually I’d ski up there all winter and I would be the only track up there! [Laughing] BA: Wow! DA: But it was kind of fun. BA: You’re still going up there now? DA: I still do. BA: So the changes you’re seeing are what? DA: Vegetatively, not much. You know, the Forest Service has done an excellent job in putting the new road up there and rehabilitating the old road along the stream. Vegetatively we haven’t seen many changes. In terms of animal use, there’s a little bit. I think the elk are pretty much moved out of there now for a large part of the winter, where they used to stay up there the whole winter. I know because I used to see them. The moose are still up there in the curl leaf mahogany forest type, and their numbers are probably comparable to what they were before. The birds are still there. The forest in the winter time situation hasn’t changed probably hardly at all. Still a few bobcats; still cut a cougar track once in a while. A few years ago I cut a wolf track for the first time. I know it was a wolf because I followed it for a long way, so we know they’re coming in too. But the wolf is probably the newcomer, coming back of course. Most of the vegetation really hasn’t changed. The fishery hasn’t changed very much; it does have heavier pressure, but most guys can’t catch fish anyway! BA: Well, now there were severe road changes up there, or significant road changes. DA: Oh yes. BA: There was that high road that was put up and around. DA: Yes, and that was an excellent move. Except the only bad thing about it is that it changed my breeding bird survey route. BA: Oh! [Laughing] DA: I had to realign my stops on my BBS routes, but other than that it was great. And I can handle that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  22   �BA: I never saw the area before the road went in because I haven’t been here that long, but I’d seen previous pictures and it looked like it was a great addition to – DA: They did a great job on that. That was a fantastic, very excellent job. And it did a lot of good; the planning has done a very good job. So, kudos to the Forest Service on that one. BA: That’s great. You know, it’s interesting to talk about policy because one of the things that I think about is policies that are directly the front door of the agency, like NEPA, you know in terms of the public involvement process and a direct impact on the agency. But then there are also policies that are very external to resource management that begin to affect your work or people’s access, or quantity of use, or change of use. When I think of policies like within the industry of snowmobiling or cross-country skiing and technical – maybe they’re not policy changes, they’re technical changes. But they begin to affect policy on the landscape as far as what – like the Yellowstone condition. If the manufacturers make changes in snowmobiles then will Yellowstone take a different look at their snowmobile policy? Because of an air quality or noise reduction, or whatever. So can you think of policies that would be external that have maybe had some impacts on your work? Or some of your research? Or just some of the changes you may have seen. [Stop and start recording] DA: Okay, the BLM for instance, they graze most of the ranges all summer long on season long grazing on sage grouse ranges and sage grouse is kind of a sensitive species. One of the areas over there [Rich County] had a good lek on it, it was called the Otter Creek Lek. We researched that over a couple of years to find out where those birds were going. Sure enough they were all on BLM grounds, and it was being grazed on a season long basis. I recommended to the Bureau of Land Management to build one fence line in addition to the ones they had there because most of the birds were nesting in this one area. Because of the cattle grazing in there, their nesting success was not very good. There was more open ground, there was more predator potential (especially from eagles and raptors and that sort of thing). So our reproductive rate was pretty shallow. I asked them if they could just fence that off during the months of June through mid-July until the chicks were big enough to be able to kind of survive on their own a little bit. That would have increased our reproductive capacity. Then they could go and still graze it at the same level and not change their animal months of livestock use in there. Well, they weren’t able to do it. If they would have been able to change that policy I am still convinced that it would help that sage grouse population in that area immensely. BA: Okay. DA: That’s an example maybe of a policy that could be changed without affecting the land owner or the grazer, but would have positive effects on wildlife. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  23   �BA: That’s great, no that’s a great example. Anything else that you can think of? Well I’m sure in your time period of 30 years there were so many policies that you have run across your desk. DA: Out in the deserts on the summer ranges, the cattle stay there year long. The question that we started out with there was – and it applies to summer ranges on the Cache and other places too – the question is, “Can livestock grazing on summer range affect big game?” The general answer is, no, they don’t. Except when the grazing becomes so significant that they begin to remove the browse complement of the vegetation on the summer ranges. When the grazing gets to that point, then they’re affecting mule deer because they’re pushing them to alternative areas, and they are affected. But until you get to that extreme type of grazing, you are not affecting them on summer range. So what we said to the Forest Service on that, and the BLM, was that, you know it’s fine to graze these livestock to that point, but once they reach that point of extreme overgrazing on these summer ranges then you need to pull them off. Because that’s when the deer put on their fat for the wintertime, so they need the berries [and fall vegetation]. BA: Okay. DA: But until they reach that point, you’re okay. So if you end your livestock grazing at the first [of] September for at least half the area then you’re probably really well off, because the deer will find those areas that aren’t being grazed. But there is a competition potential, say from the last week in August through most of the month of September. That’s the only time that it’s there. BA: So it’s a timing – you could remove them during that – DA: It is. BA: Remove the cow during that time. Is it also a lack of other vegetation available that would push them into the browse? DA: Yes, it is. They’ve eaten everything else up. BA: Okay. DA: Now they’re all of a sudden eating the stuff they don’t particularly care to eat, but they’re hungry so they’re eating it. Now wildlife do not need all the area. You’ve got a 5,000 acre range, you could put 2,500 or 2,000 acres for the wildlife and they migrate in there. And they do. And then they would have that for them. That’s kind of a rest-rotation grazing system that works. It really works for wildlife. BA: Great. I’m going to do a little change here with a question – you have two books that are sitting here that I’d like to find out a little bit more about. DA: I’m not sure I want to talk about them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  24   �BA: Okay! [Laughing] DA: Because they’re not published. BA: Well then let me go back to in terms of some of your influences in your interest in wildlife management and especially in the big game, but also in just conservation in natural resources in general. Do you have any significant books that you can remember that were fairly pivotal for you? And in the same light, when I think of – you’ve mentioned some people – but were there significant people along the way? Your dad took you fishing and that was an interesting connection for you, especially with that conservation easement part. But books or people? DA: Well, I’ve said for years – this gives me a chance to vent one of my frustrations that I believe that USU (and every other college of natural resources anywhere) is remiss in not offering a course in classic readings in natural resources. We do not do that here. I don’t think we’ve ever done it here, and it really should be done. BA: And what would you include? DA: Well first I would go out and survey as many professors and as many universities as I could and just ask them, “What would you want your students to read as far as the background of natural resources?” So you would want to read Leopold, you would want to read The Monkey Wrench Gang group, Desert Solitaire, you’d want to read Stegner; you’d want to read probably some stuff I tell you Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, a number of authors, certainly Silent Spring (Rachel Carson). Maybe a dozen or so books that you would want to have in that reading group. I think my reading of all of them has been effective. I think it really kind of set me in motion as to what really natural resources finally is about. For example, as I read Stegner’s stuff, especially his book Beyond the Hundredth Meridian, he talked about how in the early days the surveyors and the early explorers, they knew the west was dry and they tried to get congress to build state lines along watershed boundaries, rather than the straight lines that we have. But they couldn’t quite get the votes in congress because congress wanted to make it real easy rather than along watershed boundaries. It was close, they almost got it. It was a shame that they didn’t, and it’s a shame that we don’t go back and redo the state boundaries. BA: Um-hmm. DA: But those are some of the books that I thought were pretty influential. I think that Dr. Colthrap was probably very influential to me in my first few years at USU. BA: And that was the watershed person? DA: Yes. Dr. Hanks over in Agriculture who was my thesis director for my Master’s degree (which was in soils) [laughs] was very influential. Fred Gifford who was my Master’s Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  25   �thesis committee chair was also – I had a really unusual schooling! And then Phil Urness and Dr. Smith when I got into my professional work. BA: Art Smith. And what was the first name? DA: Arthur. BA: But you’d mentioned – DA: Oh, Phillip Urness. BA: Phillip Urness, okay. DA: U-R-N-E-S-S. BA: Thank you. DA: We did a lot of stuff together. I think I’ve got 53 technical publications, I think most of them are done with Phil. BA: So the first three people are really your education? DA: Yes. BA: Influences in your education. DA: Right. BA: And then Art Smith was also here. DA: He was my first boss. BA: That sounds very much like a very close colleague in terms of Urness and publications. DA: Yes, we were. He was my boss but we worked really good together for years. BA: Okay, so those are two DWR employees? DA: Well, no they were university. BA: They were USU? DA: Yes, and they were very influential. BA: Is there something you can describe about that influence that was important to you that you can think of? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  26   �DA: Well it was really good because a lot of times university professors will take publication credits – first authorship – for their students on their publications. In the early days when I first started, we sat down and we decided that we weren’t going to it that way. We decided that whoever did most of the work was first author. Everything that I did in terms of fieldwork I was first author on, with one exception. That one exception was when it was kind of on the border and I took second author on that. That was a tremendous incentive to do it right! I think I said I have 53 publications, I have one rejection; one paper I was never able to publish. So that’s a pretty good percentage. BA: Yeah, no kidding! Going back to the books, when you look at all of those books, those are dated in time, but not dated in importance. DA: Correct. BA: Are there some current titles that you would look at that you think of emerging or have emerged as being important? Because my guess is that you are a big reader. DA: I read a fair amount. I haven’t read any of the newer stuff that I was as impressed with, very honestly. BA: Okay. DA: You know, I go back and I’ll read Leopold or Muir and I’ll get a lot out of it. To me, and maybe I’m wrong, but to me the older authors (including Audubon and these guys) they were on the field, in the land and looking at the land from an inside point of view. The authors that I’m reading today are extremely good writers and they have more knowledge available to them, but it’s like their looking at the system rather than within the system. That’s kind of my view. Even though a lot of it is emotional and there’s lots of great experiences, I just feel like there’s a different point of reference from what I’ve read over the last several years. BA: Well and based on some of the other things you’ve said, that seems to fit very closely with the idea of how NR has moved away from being as field based as it could. Because that experiential approach of field camp, classes in the field, and the work in the field; then when you become a professional, spending much more time – DA: Right. I just feel like that is the real difference. If you can show me a person that spends 80 or 90% of their time in the field and is still able to write, that’s the kind of stuff that I think you can really relate to. But I shouldn’t say anything because these authors are doing very well. BA: Oh yeah. DA: Some of them are doing very well. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  27   �BA: But as you’re saying, there’s a different orientation with that. DA: Um-hmm. BA: And we see that with other aspects: observation, experience, and that common knowledge. DA: Even some of the older writers you can look at some of the stuff they do, and you’re going, “he was there, but he’s looking at it rather than being in it.” There are some of the other writers that I don’t care for that express their views in that kind of a setting. BA: Hmm. Interesting. Well thank you. This has been fascinating. I have a feeling we have some unanswered questions here. I would like to maybe pursue it at a later date. What we’re going to do though, right now, is ask Dennis if there are any final comments that he would like to make. [Stop and start recording] BA: We’re going to pick up with Dennis again. DA: I’m going to talk about a few of the experiences and situations that have occurred in Logan Canyon over the years. The first one I’ll talk about is pine marten because in the early days we had pine marten on the Cache. They apparently died out around the 1930s because that’s the last time they were seen. And then the Forest Service (about 1995) transplanted about 20-30 pine marten from Island Park up in Idaho, to the Cache National Forest up in the Franklin and Gibson Basin areas. Those marten have taken and they are continuing to maintain their population up there to this time. Now I haven’t seen any in the last two years, but I used to go on my cross-country skis way back up from Beaver Creek all the way to Gibson Basin. Once you get to the Idaho line, everybody stops, but if you go further, you’ll run into habitat that is inhabited by marten. They’re still there and that’s an unusual species that is pretty neat to have around. BA: Could you describe the habitat that they really thrive in? DA: Mostly dense conifer; their major prey species are voles. But they’ll also eat red squirrels, which I’ve seen them chase. That’s fun to see if you’ve ever seen a pine marten chase a red squirrel, it’s really fun. [Laughing] BA: How do they do it? DA: Just as fast as they can go! Up trees, down trees, across the ground, over piles of wood. Annie and I saw that, a really interesting chase up in Yellowstone one year, coming out of Union Falls. But that was fun. So that’s the pine marten. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  28   �The wolverine is really a little more interesting because I’ve got a little more observation there. The question that came up years ago is, “Do we ever get wolverine on the Cache?” Wolverine, lynx, and the pine marten. And we talked about pine marten. In ten years we had one lynx that came into the Cache Valley mountains. The tracks were cut by me, and then two weeks later by a Forest Service employee. That’s the only verifiable lynx that I know of. But the wolverine. I began to ask sportsmen and Forest Service employees – anybody I could that was in the woods a lot – “have you seen a wolverine?” Over a ten year period I put together a map. And every time I’d get an observation that I felt like was probably a wolverine (like 95% -- if it was less 95% probability I’d throw it out). So everything I got is highly probable; then I would put a dot on the map. After ten years, I had like 20 dots and they are all centered in the same area. Like there was none over in Blacksmith Fork, there was none on the Wellsvilles, there was one over toward Monte Cristo: they’re all centered in the top of Logan Canyon, basically to the north of Logan Canyon near the top. BA: A forest type and elevation? DA: Yep, forest type; often in rocks, rocky terrain, but not necessarily. High Creek Lake has several reports up there. But they’re all centered in that Gibson area, Gibson Basin to High Creek Lake area. And we put together a little piece that I published in the Herald Journal on that. [In 1995] I saw a wolverine. [Before that the only one that I had scene was] when I was like 17 down in Salt Lake. [In 1995] I was skiing way back into Gibson Basin and had gotten almost back to the basin itself, but not quite. There’s a transitional zone there where the canyon gets steep and there’s some really warm micro-habitat in there. I cut through wolverine tracks – and it was an adult and a juvenile (because of the size of the two tracks). BA: What size are we looking at with these? DA: Oh, they’re about four inches in diameter – they’re between a cougar and a bobcat, generally, and they’re a furrier track and a little more round. They’re not easy to distinguish, but you can. I followed those two wolverine for a while and that was kind of a unique observation. So we do have wolverine on the Cache forest. They do get here once in a while; my guess is we have two to four permanent wolverines that range from Logan Canyon road, north clear to Soda Springs – in that entire range. BA: And they range in that area? DA: Yes. BA: That’s how large they range? DA: Wide, wide ranging critters. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  29   �BA: Holy cow! DA: That’s why we just don’t see them very often. BA: Right. DA: And since I wrote that article, I’ve had two more additional people call me about two sightings that I accepted were wolverines. On this particular study or analysis, I was probably rejecting about two thirds, to three quarters of the observations that people were giving me because they just weren’t good enough. BA: Do people document them with pictures for you? DA: No, no one had a picture. It was all either visual sighting – “I got a really good look at him, but I didn’t get a picture.” BA: Right. DA: In a couple of cases I accepted tracks, but they had to be good biologists, you know. They had to be able to say, you know, you could see the fifth claw and that sort of thing. BA: Interesting. Go back to the lynx for a minute. When you talk about they’re just so rare – what’s your reason for it? DA: And lynx are tied into snowshoe hare and the snowshoe hare population – that’s part of the reason I started snowshoe hare transects, is to find out what is going on with our population. Because the idea is that as you go further south from boreal forest type, that your population cycles: snowshoe hare populating go extremely high and extremely low. We didn’t know what it was doing here. That’s the only lynx that I have ever encountered one way or another. I don’t think they’re here. But the cougar is the really interesting. There’s a lot to be said on the cougar on the Cache District in Logan Canyon. The stories are innumerable. BA: Well tell us a little bit about your experiences with them. DA: Well my first experience with a cougar was when I was 16 or 17 (I can’t remember which) and I had a date and she forgot. So I went up the canyon and with a weak-beamed flashlight, I was hiking back in one of the canyons at night and I heard this scream. And it scared the daylights out of me. My teenage invincibility was gone, and I didn’t know what it was. It was a cougar. And since then we have had a lot of cougar experiences as a family. [Stop and start recording] [Tape 2 of 2: B] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  30   �BA: Tape 2, side 2. DA: We [family] were camped outside Yellowstone Park and I had the kids with me and they were all pretty young. I thought everybody was asleep and I heard this cougar screaming – it was way out. We had the stream running by us, there was a little bit of water noise, and this cougar got closer, and closer, and closer. It screamed about every three or four minutes. If you’ve ever heard them scream (and very few people have) it sounds like a woman in mortal terror. That’s the best way to describe it. But the cougar got pretty close, and I said to the family (because I thought everybody was asleep), I said, “Is anybody awake?” Instantly Annie and every one of the kids sat up in their sleeping bags – they’d all been hearing it thinking everybody else was asleep! [Laughing] We pulled the kids out of their sleeping bags, threw them into the van (even though I didn’t think there was much danger), but I mean this cougar was screaming at the top of his lungs, and it was right by us. I got everybody into the van and turned my flashlight on and there – ten feet from the van was this cougar. You could see his eyes in that beam. There wasn’t much of a reflection, but you could see him right there. My kids can still remember it. [Laughing] BA: Holy cow! So why was he so gregarious with coming in? DA: Well, that’s the time when they’re breeding. BA: Okay. DA: He was calling, screaming for a mate – she or he, I don’t know which. What a great experience! When I took over the Cache position, we had a lot of cougar and not very many deer. The first year – they’d had one or two permits on the Cache Forest for years in terms of cougar harvest. The first year I just went into the RAC meeting not knowing very much and I asked for 30 permits. BA: Tell us what RAC is? DA: Regional Advisory Council for the Division of Wildlife Resources, which makes their recommendation to the board which sets policy. BA: Okay, and they’re made up of local citizens? DA: They’re made up of seven people – well the RACs are local people generally, that have an interest. Anyway, I went into that meeting and I ended up getting I think two permits that first year. I didn’t like that because I knew there were cougars all over the place. So the next year for the recommendation process, I prepared a two or three page summary of what Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  31   �was going on and took it first to a committee meeting of DWR biologists. At that time we had a biologist who was the predator manager– I don’t know what his title was, but he did cougars. We sat in this meeting and I said, “I want 30 permits because I’ve got 120 cougars on the Cache.” (Because that was my estimate.) He looked at me and he said, “Dennis, you don’t even have 30 cougars on the Cache, let alone 120!” (Actually I was asking for 40 permits, that’s right, I asked for 40.) He said, “You don’t even have 40 permits on the whole Cache!” And I called him by name and I said, “You give me 40 permits and three good weekends of snow and I’ll show you 40 dead cougars.” I got 35 permits, we had three weekends of snow, we killed 37 cougars. BA: Wow. DA: We went over our limit because some of the cougar hunters had gone out that last day when I had 34 and we ended up killing three the last day. [Laughing] So we got on top of the cougar population. It took us a few years to do it, but we got on top of it. BA: And then the deer population? DA: The deer population responded a little bit. Hard to say. You know, there are so many other factors involved. But we did get on top of the cougars. I had cougars coming out of my ears! I had people calling me. Dry Canyon in Providence in Canyon – we had a cougar that would come down in this lady’s backyard. I would go over there (of course I could never find it when I was there). Come hunting season I would send a cougar hunter right there. He went up that mountain, found a cougar and got it. I had a cougar just above Mantua, Malibu Campground – in that little housing place (I can’t think of the name of it off hand) and this cougar would come down and sit on the porch. It started growling at people – and we sent a hunter after that cougar. And we killed that cougar. Then we had the cougars in (oh, what’s the name of that canyon? Just above the Forest Service house in the canyon there.) BA: I know where you mean. DA: I can’t think of the name off hand. But we had sheep being killed up there by cougars in the summer. So we got ADC to go in there (Animal Damage Control), federal people, to go in there and kill these cougars. They didn’t kill one cougar – they killed five cougars in that one little drainage! You know the old concept was that cougars kill each other (and they do) and they’re very territorial and they still are because under the long-term environmentals where they developed over the last 10,000 years they had to be because the deer resource was very sparse. Since man came along we began livestock grazing, controlling predators; all of a sudden cougars have got all kinds of stuff to eat – they don’t have to worry about it as much. So my theory was they didn’t have to kill each other to maintain their territory, so they were all enjoying feasts. So that’s one of the reasons that I think cougar populations are much harder to control now is because they have – over the last century – adapted to a higher prey base than they ever had before. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  32   �BA: How do you know – when you look at sheep when someone called you out and they said, “we think it’s cougar” – how could you tell that it was not something else that had attacked that animal? DA: By the bite marks. BA: And what would they be? DA: They would be the bite marks – I am not an expert at that by any means. The ADC guys (the Animal Damage Control guys) are really experts. They can just skin it back, pull the skin back, and then they just look at the bite marks on the neck. That will distinguish a cougar practically every time. BA: Now did you ever work with trappers in your time? You mentioned ADC. DA: Not very much. A few trappers. The most interesting story was I had a trapper, I won’t tell you his name, and he trapped bobcat (because you can’t trap cougar). He was trapping bobcat and he was very successful at it for years (probably still doing it); a very good man, a very good trapper. I get this call one night and he says, “Dennis, I got a cougar in one of my bobcat traps.” It was night so I said, “Let’s go up and get it in the morning.” So we went up in the morning and hiked up the mountain where his trap was. Sure enough, there was a cougar in his bobcat trap. He said to me, “How are we going to release this?” Because he couldn’t do that. And I said, “There is no way in this world that either one of us is going to go try and release this cougar.” I had a gun and we just shot it. We killed the cougar. Then the interesting thing was we checked his next trap (which was just around the bend) and it also had a cougar in it! So we got two cougars in two bobcat traps right there. That was an interesting experience! BA: I can’t imagine even trying to release. DA: Yes, but they’re there. And we don’t know whether trappers, when they get cougars, would kill them or not. We just don’t know. It’s impossible to check them all. But it probably happens. We had a river otter taken one year in Logan Canyon. It was captured and killed by a trapper who was trapping beaver up there. He brought us this river otter; I think it is still frozen in one of our freezers some place! But that was the only river otter that I know of that’s been in Logan Canyon, except that about two weeks before we got the carcass, I had a report of a river otter in Logan Canyon that was seen sliding down (as they typically do) the snow banks into the river. BA: Oh my! DA: That report was by my son. One of my sons had seen it and I said, “Oh no, you must have seen something wrong.” Two weeks later, we get a river otter that had been trapped in the same area. Fascinating. BA: Hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  33   �DA: The cougar situation is being controlled a lot better now and I think they’ve done a pretty good job. My best experience – and I’ve seen seven cougars in the wild over my career which is a lot. There is hardly anybody that can say that they’ve seen that many. The one that was the most unique was when I was classifying deer (it was in the fall) and I was coming up out of Garden City. I was about three miles up Garden City road – I was classifying deer – it was in the evening, late evening, and I see seven deer off to the side of the road. Well, the highway has a little turnoff there at the corner, so I pulled over to that little gravel area and got out and looked to classify those deer. There were four does and three fawns, I can still remember. I looked at them and the strange thing was they weren’t looking at me. They were looking a little off into the bushes. And I go, “what is going on?” Then all of a sudden – just simultaneously – they just ran! They were just gone, strutting away. I am looking around, and there (well I measured the distance, I can’t remember what it was), but it was like 30 feet or less was this cougar. BA: Laying low? DA: He’d been sitting there laying low in the bushes watching those deer, sneaking up on them. He was not happy with me; he stood up and just kind of cowered through the sagebrush. I watched him, [it was] quite an experience. BA: Oh! That would be. DA: That was fun. BA: I bet you had dozens and hundreds of those kinds of experiences with different kinds of wildlife in your career. DA: I have. BA: You know, especially with your comment about being so oriented to the field and then the family time that you’ve spent out. DA: Yes I did. There was a lot of wonderful experiences and things that, you know, you just can’t replace. You can’t replace them. BA: Well, thank you very much. This has been just thoroughly enjoyable. DA: For me too. BA: It’s really good talking to you. I appreciate it. [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Dennis  Austin       Page  34   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/90">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/90</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dennis D. Austin interview, 18 February 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Dennis Austin discusses his career in the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and all the time in the field he spent and his role and opinions on various policies involved he also talks about his role in influencing and teaching land owners about conservation easements. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Austin, Dennis D. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Austin, Dennis D.--Interviews Biologists--Utah--Interviews Austin, Dennis D.--Career in Wildlife Research Utah. Division of Wildlife Resources--Officials and employees Utah State University--Research Range management--Research Research and development projects--Utah Wildlife management--Research--Utah Wildlife research--Utah--Logan Canyon Deer--Research--Utah Deer--Feeding and feeds--Utah--Cache County Big game animals--Wintering--Research--Utah Browse (Animal food)--Research--Utah Conservation easements--Utah Habitat (Ecology)--Utah--Logan Canyon Habitat conservation--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Natural resources--Study and teaching Puma--Control--Utah Wildlife resources--Subsistence vs. recreational use--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah Millville (Utah) North Logan (Utah) United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 1 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd1DennisAustin Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 18 February 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-02-18 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/4a0fa7a7420070da98af1739b08cbd16.mp3 443c2570e68967956a1ce14ce66b22cb https://highway89.org/files/original/ae75b2113eb2fd69050bc275f6da44a7.pdf 8dcce733ab4a29305a892320625d6701 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Scott Bushman Place of Interview: Logan Ranger District Office, mouth of Logan Canyon Date of Interview: April 23, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Darren Edwards; Brad Cole Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Susan Gross Scott Bushman, April 2009; Randy Williams, 17 March 2011 Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains information on the career of Scott Bushman for the Forest Service. He was involved heavily in fire suppression and the Logan Hot Shot crew. He also discusses how he first got involved in Logan Canyon as a youth in the Youth Conservation Corps. He also gives a history of the Forest Service in this area and their involvement, along with Utah Agricultural College (now Utah State University) in teaching forestry. Reference: DE = Darren Edwards (Interviewer; USU graduate student) BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) SB = Scott Bushman NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. Many of Mr. Bushman’s edits, including more information on the topic, are noted in brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] DE: I am Darren Edwards. I am here with Scott Bushman and Brad Cole. It’s April 23, 2008 at 2:15 [pm]. I guess just to get started, Scott what’s your full name? SB: Jon Scott Bushman, spelled “J-O-N”. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  1   �DE: And when and where were you born? SB: I was born in Salt Lake City, Utah in 1953. DE: So have you lived in Utah your whole life? SB: Pretty much. I’ve lived all over the world, but pretty much this has always been my home address for tax purposes so yep, yeah pretty much. DE: Could you give us a little bit more about just your personal history. Why did you travel? Where are some of the places that you went to? SB: Well, I think like a lot of young people back in the late [19]‘60s and ‘70s, I was doing a lot of hitchhiking and things like that, and I was in college. I remember hitchhiking quite a bit around the western United States and I even hitchhiked to Alaska. Several times I dropped out of school for a quarter and traveled, found odd jobs along the way and saw new places. And I ended up, oh, I spent a lot of time in Central America and Alaska; Europe and in the west here. I think a lot of that had to with – you know in my family, we always did a lot of camping – that was kind of a family tradition. We spent a lot of time in the outdoors. And I think it all kind of crosses over. When I was eighteen years old, I was in high school; I applied for a job with the U.S. Forest Service for the summer. I didn’t think I’d get it but I did. So I went to work in 1972 for the Salt Lake Ranger District on the Wasatch National Forest and the YCC Program [Youth Conservation Corps at Alta, Utah. The YCC was a youth work program that began during the Nixon Administration.] BC: What types of things did the YCC do at that time? SB: Well, the YCC kids – I think there were 48 of us that lived at Alta – and our job was basically to do “slave labor” project crews; we did trail work, we built campgrounds, we hauled rocks, we did a little bit of thinning and pruning, but just a lot of different project works. And it was a great job. We fell in line with the old CCC tradition – that is the old Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) from the 1930s. It was a residential camp located at Alta so you went to the Forest Service office on Monday morning, [the camp staff picked you up and they drove you up to Alta. On Friday afternoon they dropped you off back at the District Office in Salt Lake.] If you had a car you could get home or your parents would come and pick you up or we would usually just carpool with our buddies and get dropped off at home for the weekend. Some of us would just turn around and go hiking, or go back up in the mountains and go camping. I did that for a few years and that’s how I really got involved with the US Forest Service. Logan was a real special place. In 1973 the Wasatch and the old Cache National Forests combined and it became the Wasatch-Cache. And what the Wasatch wanted to do was make sure that the Cache felt like they were a part of this new forest because all of the old Cache Districts on the Utah side went to the Wasatch-Cache. [So the entire Alta YCC camp was sent to Logan. We felt that being sent to Logan was a reward for our Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  2   �hard work], you know. We were detailed up to Logan for a week or so to do project work on the Logan Ranger District. We were assigned to work up Left Hand Fork, where we built a new Range fence in Herd Hollow. That’s where I first met the old District Ranger, M.J. Roberts and his staff. And after that, coming to Logan for a week, in the YCC program was the big prize. Everybody loved it up here. For the crew that worked the hardest and did the best things and had the fewest accidents, their reward was that they got to come up and spend a week in Logan camping out and doing project work on the district here. So it was a great opportunity. And that’s how I first got introduced to the Logan Ranger District – I think I was 19 years old. I remember I got my picture on front page of the Herald Journal. I cut that out and it’s somewhere around here in the archives. It was a lot of fun. My earliest memories of Logan Canyon go back to probably the 1950s when we used to always take our vacations up at Bear Lake. We would always come through Logan because my dad had business here in Logan. He was a salesman, worked with the department stores. So we would come here and he would work for a few hours, work on his accounts, and then we would go up to Bear Lake and [spend a week at Gus Rich’s Lake Shore Lodge. I don’t know if you remember Gus’s. It was sold and torn down in the early 1970s. And that’s how we got to know Logan Canyon.] DE: So what are your hobbies and recreational pursuits now as an adult? SB: Well, I’m getting kind of a little old for what I used to do. I used to do a lot of hiking, a lot of mountain climbing – I’ve always enjoyed that. I used to ride horses a lot and I still travel a little bit but you get older you know, I don’t do the climbing I used to do. I keep a sailboat up at Bear Lake and I spend a good portion of the summer up there sailing when I can get off work and we don’t have any fires. [I still hike, camp and cross country ski with my wife and kids when I get an opportunity. And I still do some horseback riding here at work if I need check out a burn unit or fuels project.] DE: What is your title as a profession; what do you do for your profession? SB: Right now I’m the District Fire Management Officer. So my job is to run the fire program – that means pre-suppression and to put out all the fires on the Logan Ranger District which includes you know, everything from Idaho down to I guess down to Mantua and of course the Wellsville Mountains. So I basically manage the fire program up here; supervise the fire engine and the suppression crews. And I used to be the Hot Shot superintendent for 20 years and I finally gave that up last summer and took this job (that kept me away from Logan and from home quite a bit). Before that I was the Assistant Engine Foreman on the District. I worked for Neff Hardman. Neff had worked here for since probably – I think he started in the 1930s, went to World War II, came back and then he got a full-time job after the war; he passed away a few years ago. But Neff was my boss when I came here. [Before I worked for Neff in Fire I worked on the Young Adult Conservation Corps.] It was another one of these Department of Labor programs in it hired young people. We hired a lot of kids from Logan, from USU – mostly spouses whose husbands were finishing up degrees and they paid them minimum wage and they Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  3   �worked – it was a one-year appointment. And that’s what I came up here to do was work for that program when I got out of college. I couldn’t find a job as a school teacher but they offered me one up here. At that time I was [living in Kamas and working as the Mirror Lake Wilderness Ranger. I applied for several Forest Service jobs that fall and received 3 job offers. Logan was one of my job offers and I always loved the area so accepted the Logan offer. With the new job, I moved to Logan in the fall of 1978 and became a full-time resident.] BC: You mentioned the YACC – SB: Yeah. BC: You talked about hiring a lot of spouses – so mainly a lot of female workers it sounds like? SB: Yeah, we had a lot of women on the crew and it was kind of interesting because it was a time when the rest of the agency was looking at diversity and bringing women on to the program and in Logan the complaint was that we had too many women. The old district ranger was real concerned. There were a lot of really funny jokes about the old ranger, M.J. Roberts. He was real old school and kind of uncomfortable with women doing physical work. He would try to restrict them – he was afraid they would hurt themselves. And the truth of the matter was a lot of these women were just as tough, or tougher, than a lot of the guys. [Because many of women were a little older and more mature they tended to be the squad bosses and work leaders. It was an interesting time. We had a lot of fun and did a lot of great work projects for the District.] Just kind of going back one of the memories we did we used to plant a lot of trees. Back in the [19]‘60s and ‘70s the [District did a lot of timber clear cutting projects. A couple of years after the logging project we would go in and do reforestation: plant trees. We would have these huge tree planting camps. In preparation for spring planting we had to cache our seedlings in the area in January. We would go into the Sinks, borrow one of the Thiokol cats from Beaver Mountain and] then we would bury them under about 20 feet of snow. As soon as the planting sights were clear we would dig tunnels in the snow caches, find our trees and then we would set up our tree camps. We would put up all these big tents, and usually it was in the snow. It was just terrible getting up there, but we would live up there and we would plant 40-80,000 trees in a couple of weeks. We would haul our own food up and the guys that did most of the work were the YACC [crew members. We camped out and worked 10-12 hours a day and just stayed right on sight.] There are a lot of stories about those times. These are like young, crazy college kids and they made a little city up there. They built a hot shower, and we’re still wondering how they did that – so they could shower at night. And I remember they even, up in the trees they set up a wet bar [laughing], you know which was kind of illegal, but they did it anyway they’d stick it up there and keep it out at camp. It was a lot of fun, but oh they worked. It was just real hard work. You’d have to get up early to get your trees ready and then you’d have to wrap them the night before. I can remember wrapping trees at 10 Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  4   �o’clock at night in a blizzard, when it was 15 to 10 degrees outside your tent and you’re trying to get these things ready to go for the morning. So it was always interesting up there. BC: Explain that a little bit more – you’re re-seeding, re-planting clear-cuts? SB: Yeah – BC: And the whole process of wrapping the trees and what exactly? SB: Well what you do – you get bare-root trees and the bare-root trees have to be frozen. What we would do is in the fall (this is another great project we used to do) we would go up in the canyon and we would climb or cut down cone-bearing trees. And we would grab all of the cones we could – there would be bags and bags of them – and then we would drive them up to [Boise, Idaho where our Tree nursery is located. The people at the nursery would take the] cones and they would open them up, plant the seeds and then, in a couple of years they would harvest them, wrap them in big boxes and we would send someone to pick up the trees. [That way we knew we had seedlings indigenous to the area. These were the seedlings we had in our cache. We would take those boxes and they would be dormant, basically frozen. That’s why we buried them in the snow. Once we got the trees to our camp the night before we planted them we’d open a box of trees, measure the roots and clip them with scissors.] I think they had to be like 12 inches, you know, depending on what they would say. So you would clip those off and then you would individually lay them out in rows of 50, wrap them in burlap and soak that in water and vermiculite. After they were soaked you would put it in your planting bag and just leave it overnight. In the morning as the crews went out then they each would be given a bag and then we would line up and they would have somebody that would go ahead with a tool called a McCloud and they would scrape down through the grass about a 16 by 16 inch square of bare soil and then we had the next guy come by with the chainsaw with a drill auger attached to it on the power head. They would drill a hole about 12 to 14 inches deep; and the next guy would come along and put a tree in the hole and plant it. And that’s what you did. I can go up today and I can see the ones I planted back in [19]’79 and they’re doing really well. It’s kind of fun to go up there. We did a lot up in Log Canyon Hollow area. Some of those trees are probably 20 to 30 feet high now. We planted all through the Sinks area. There are a lot of trees up there; they’ve been doing that for years. There’s one stand that the Boy Scouts planted in the [19]‘30s, just out of Right Hand Fork, that are still just barely hanging on, but they planted Ponderosa Pine which isn’t indigenous to this area so they never really took off. It’s up in Willow Creek. It’s just kind of funny. They had a nursery at Tony Grove and I guess, back in the Conservation Era, one of their experiments to introduce Ponderosa Pine to the Bear River Range. There are actually two or three coniferous trees up there that are doing pretty well, but the big experiment kind of failed. They’re still alive but they’re barely ten feet tall! [Laughing] So, just an interesting side line. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  5   �DE: So if you could change anything about the career that you’re in now, what would it be? SB: Oh, it’s been a good career. I think probably I would have moved around a little bit more. I spent quite a few years working on the Logan Ranger District and then they had a reduction in work force and so I was let go: I lost my job up here. That was back in the early [19]‘80s. And then I went back to school at Utah State University in Forestry for a couple of years and was able to get my civil service Forestry requirements met and then I left the area. I got another Forest Service job in Salt Lake for a year or so. I came back to Logan in 1984 and worked as a seasonal for a few years. I think I probably would have done better just to keep moving. I came back to the area because I liked it and then I was offered an opportunity for another appointment with the Hot Shot crew. So my idea was to take that appointment and then move on but I just kind of got – I got married, I had kids, you know, we bought a place and so. We just ended up staying for probably longer than we should have, but that’s why. DE: What was that – the Hot Shots crew? SB: Hot Shot crew is a fire crew: a 20 person hand crew, a line crew. The Logan Hotshot Crew was established (there’s a real wild history about that) in 1988. Do you want some background on that because – DE: Would love some background, yeah. SB: Well, you know when they first established the National Forest Reserve in Logan in 1903 they hired a local barber to be the first reserve supervisor, the first ranger – John Squires. And I think that was pretty typical throughout the west. There seemed to be two schools in the U.S. Forest Service back then. There were the eastern educated foresters from the European tradition, sort of like Gifford Pinchot and his crowd; and then there were the western forest rangers that were basically cowboys and ex-buffalo hunters and you name it – just these guys that loved the mountains. So what they wanted to do was take what they had in the west and teach them Forestry methods. Logan had the State Agricultural College here and Forest Service begin teaching summer forestry course here in 1907. When Ranger Squires resigned as the Forest Supervisor they brought somebody from back east to be the [new Supervisor, William Weld Clark] – he was a Forester and he began to teach summer courses up here at Utah State in surveying and forestry techniques. Unfortunately he died – he had an accident getting on his horse at Card Guard Station. He fell on his saddle horn while he was mounting the horse [it] created an internal hemorrhage. I think it was back in 1907-1908, right around there. So they brought Squires back in to fill in until they could find somebody new. In the meantime there was a recognized need for Forestry education for these guys. So back in the late 1920s a guy named Lyle Watts who was the Deputy Chief of the Forest Service came to Logan and established the Utah State University department of Forestry, the Natural Resources department. He later became Chief of the Forest Service. In the 1920s as Watts was putting the new Forestry Department together he wanted to bring the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  6   �working western foresters to Utah State and train them in Forest science and management. [Watts felt very strongly that students needed] to have a summer program – you know it wasn’t all winter and classroom studying. And so he started the USU Forestry Camp up in Logan Canyon and that’s where that all came from. The problem was that a lot of these guys were married people and they couldn’t afford to take the summer off. They needed to work. And so Watts and the Department made an agreement with the Cache National Forest to pick these guys up [after Summer Camp and give them a job for the rest of the summer field season. Logan use to be the old Cache National Forest Supervisor’s Office and it seemed to be a good arrangement for both parties. And so every year the District Ranger would go up to Summer Camp and recruit 10 or 15] or how many guys they could get and offer the students jobs here. Most of the jobs were working in fire. They had a little fire crew. Anyway, over the years I think probably by the 1960s it was pretty well-established that the Logan District would host a fire crew every summer. And they even had patches that said “USU Fire Crew” on them and “Wasatch-Cache National Forest.” Guys like – who was Gerald Ford’s son? BC: Oh, Jack Ford? SB: Yeah, he was on that – Jack was on that crew and Mike Jenkins was on that crew. Mike is now a Forestry professor at USU. It is kind of interesting but within the Forest Service community you’ll meet a lot people that worked on the crew back in the [19]‘60s and 70s. Once in a while and old crew member will come in and talk to me about it and want to know how the crew is. Well, the crew was a pretty big thing for the Logan District and when they combined the National Forest, when the Cache and the Wasatch joined together they kept it going until the late‘70s. In 1980 the Intermountain Region decided they wanted to establish a Hot Shot Crew on the Wasatch. So they took the money they’d been giving to the USU Forestry Fire Crew and they established a National Hot Shot Crew. They moved the crew to Kamas. The Wasatch Hotshots existed for three years but they didn’t do too well. They had some, I guess they had some real problems with the staff there and the community. [The crew members were pretty unhappy with the way the program was run and complained to the Forest Supervisor. After three years the Forest Supervisors, Chan St. John, decided the Forest was not going to host the crew anymore. And so they gave the money back and that kind of fixed the problem that way.] A couple of years later Dave Baumgartner, who was the new Logan District Ranger – he came down from the Sawtooth – he really wanted to have the old crew back and so he made a proposal to bring a new Shot Crew to Logan. The Region was still trying to place a Hotshot crew in the Region. Placing a new crew in Logan seemed to make sense because we had this tradition of the old USU Forestry Fire Crew. We still had all the old equipment, you know, all the tools and stuff and the packs. The Forest Supervisor at the time was Dale Bosworth. Do you know Dale? He was the Chief of the Forest Service until last year and he finally retired. Dale thought it was a great idea so he got the Regional Office to pony-up with the money. Dave established the crew but he couldn’t find anybody to run it because it was a new crew. So he asked me to run it just to get it started up with the idea that he could get me an appointment, you know if it became a permanent thing. That is where the Hot Shot crew came. It kind of started with Lyle Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  7   �Watts back in the 1920s [and you know it’s still here today. We still hire a lot of students but now we have people from all over the country on the crew. We have also hosted firefighters from Russia and Brazil. These are Wildland fire professionals that have detailed with the crew to observe and learn American fire suppression methods and organizational structure.] BC: What are some of the memorable fires that happened in this region that you’ve worked on? SB: Oh, we’ve had some wonderful fires here. [Laughing] I think the first fire I ever worked on in the Logan Ranger District was when I came up in 1973 on that range fence detail. We had a fire up in Charlie’s Hollow up in Left Hand Fork. I can remember that because we were rousted out of our tents and told to get down there and we’ve got to put this fire out. We were all 18, 17, 16 years old. We loaded up in our carry-alls and drove down there. The District crew just about had it out, but they let us mop up for about 30-40 minutes. The deal was that they had probably about 20 rattlesnakes crawling around the fires edge where we were mopping up. This place was just lousy with rattlesnakes that the fire had chased out. I can remember the Range Con (Conservation Officer) Stan Miller, he was going around with a shovel whacking them and collecting the rattles! [Laughing] I can remember the kind of scolding Stan for being so unfriendly to the wildlife. But he was afraid someone was going to get bitten by them. Years later, when I got my permanent job in Logan, Stan and I became good friends. Anyway, that was up in Charlie’s Hollow. We’ve had a lot of really interesting fires in Logan. And I hate to say some of them have been just really fun. The way fires start around here is they are either man caused, like kids playing with matches or hunters in the fall. But during the summer most of them are caused by lightening strikes. In the 1970s and 1980s when we would get a “lighting bust” on the District, typically you’ll get five or six starts right at the same time. That was always fun for us guys; sometimes. We used to keep a heli-port down at the Logan warehouse at the other side of town and when we got those afternoon lighting storms, it seemed like it was always Friday night and you always had something better to do, you know. You had a date or there was a movie or something like that. But Neff used to run over and lock the gate and wouldn’t let us leave. He’d say, “You got to get your fire stuff on because we got new starts and the helicopter is coming.” And so he would kind of kidnap us I guess. But the helicopter would come, land; he’d give us a briefing, tell us where we were going, divide us up into groups of two or three man squads; and then we would jump in the helicopter and they would drop us off on these ridge tops all along the front there. We got to spend the night there banging on these fires. [We would have to stay on the mountain until they were out, usually by morning. The next morning we would wait until the sun got up and then we would have our breakfast which was just some kind of army ration, make some coffee and then right around 10 or 11 o’clock, when we felt good about the fire, we could hike out and they would let us go home and get some sleep. And those were a lot of fun.] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  8   �I think some of the biggest fires I’ve been on – well, I remember the year 1988. I remember that year because that’s when we had Yellowstone burn. BC: Um-hmm. SB: And that was the first year that we had the Hot Shot crew here on the district and we spent all summer in Yellowstone. And then when we got back everybody was so tired. We got back in mid-September and we were ready to just – oh, that’s it – and about two days later we had the White Pine fire, up in White Pine canyon. I was the initial attack IC on that. I hiked up from Tony Lake and when I made it to the ridge above White Pine I reported it at about 200 acres. It wasn’t that big but it was almost dark and fire look a lot bigger at night than they really are. The dispatcher thought I was kidding so I repeated it and he started ordering crews and helicopters. It was the biggest fire he’d ever seen in the high timber. I’m not sure what it ended up, but it was the biggest fire I’d ever seen on the Logan Ranger District. It burned most of White Pine basin. [We got it pretty much under control by the next afternoon and turned it over to the State. The next day the fire blew up again and the State Forester, Craig Pettigrew took it over as the IC. The fire was actually on Utah State sections and not on the National Forest. By the time it was over we had crews from all over the country working on it. We had a crew from Pennsylvania that was assigned to the fire and they were kind of high maintenance. They were mad because they thought they were going to Yellowstone, but Yellowstone had received snowed and it was pretty well finished. So we got them and they turned into a problem crew.] But we had some crews from South Carolina, some crews from the Carolinas that were a lot of fun to work with. Good fire, a lot of pictures, a lot of good memories on that one. We also had one up Spawn Creek that year. I think it was in October and it was just about 140 acres, again bitter cold I remember. That was a hunting fire, but I can remember the thing being so dry that all you had to do was, you know look at a tree and it would go on fire. I mean it was just bone dry up there. The fires we were getting were mostly hunter fires. People would just do a warming fire and they would think they were out but they would walk away and you know, they just start to smolder and two or three days later, you know they were off to the races. Those were fun, fires but it made for a very long season. I was glad to see the snow come. I think probably as far as the media goes we’ve had several fires around Beaver Mountain; one in [19]’89 and then one in the early ‘90s where the fire fighters got to ride the chair lift up to the top of Beaver Mountain because that’s where the fires were. That was kind of fun for them. It’s hard to keep track of all the fires. Fires on the Wellsvilles have always been a painful experience. Our joke is “you’ve never really worked on the Logan Ranger District unless you’ve carried a bladder bag up the Wellsvilles at two in the morning through that brush trying to smell smoke out.” [Laughing] You know, that was kind of your ritual of passage I guess, you had to climb the Wellsvilles. They don’t tend to get very big, but it is so steep and hard to get up there with very few trails. Now that it’s a wilderness area we look at them real carefully. If there’s not a lot of potential we usually just monitor them or put in them in a Fire Use Status because they don’t tend to move much or threaten anything. They don’t get big; they kind of just smolder around Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  9   �for a day or two and then go out. So it’s not really worth spending the time and money to go after them. DE: So how big were the bladder bags you carried? SB: [Bladder Bags? They’re “back pack pumps” and sometimes we call them “fedcos” because that is the manufactures name. There are a lot of different terms for them]; some of them aren’t very polite. They carry five gallons of water, so they’re about 45 pounds because water weighs 11 pounds a gallon so. And that’s on top of your fire gear, which is another 20 pounds and your tool and all the stuff you carry. So usually you really earn your cookies when you climb up the Wellsvilles with that kind of weight on you. BC: I guess! [Laughing] SB: And the fires are never near the trail! [Laughing] You’ve always got to bushwhack up side of the mountain and usually it was in the dark. But good fun. BC: Have you seen the same – I know living in the southwest for a while a lot of the fire problems down there were they thought caused by over-foresting and the thicket growth that came in. Do you have the similar kinds of fire issues developing in this area of the world? SB: Yeah, well specifically in Logan Canyon. I would say that’s a problem throughout the U.S. now because of the fire control. Where you really see it is like in the large timber stands in Idaho and Oregon and the northwest. California, because it is so heavily vegetated and has a huge urban interface component. We live in an area which has a lot of fire tolerance. What that means is a lot of the fuels are meant to burn. And as they would say over at Utah State, “It’s not a matter of “if”, but “when.” But our fires haven’t been the large, catastrophic fires that we’ve seen up north. A large fire around here would be 100 acres. I think that may change. [Last summer we had a lot of new starts down on the foothills, but once they got into the timber the fuels thinned out, and the fire behavior would drop off. It was just kind of the consistency of the fuel type and patterns. Where they weren’t consistent and continuous fire wasn’t able to carry. We saw this along the 7,000 foot level all summer long.] As a student I can remember hiking up Cottonwood with Ron Lanner (he was one of my professors) and drilling trees and looking at the ring patterns, you know to try and establish a fire history. I think the Logan Canyon does have a history of fire. It is pretty hard to find a stand of Doug Fir that doesn’t have some kind of a fire scar on the larger trees. And just because we haven’t had a lot of fires in the last 100 years, well we have, the pioneers recorded some, but I think it’s just a matter of time, you know. We’ll see what this drought does; maybe not this year. [It’s been pretty wet out there this summer.] BC: Yeah! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  10   �SB: When Albert Potter came through the canyon in 1902 he writes in his diary about a fire up there by Stump Hollow (right across the street from where Beaver Mountain is) where they had done some logging up there. Apparently some herders had decided that they didn’t like the brush and so they were going to burn it off to just to get rid of it so the cows could have more feed, and the sheep (because this was a major grazing area back then). He writes the thing went all the way into Idaho and then some, you know [laughing]. So it got away from them! I guess you could probably still find fire scars up there. DE: So are you – kind of shifting gears I guess – are you a member of a religious community? And if so, how has that affected your land use beliefs? SB: [Laughing] Well being from Utah, half my family were LDS, the other half are Seventh Day Adventist and I’m kind of right in the middle. I don’t know if that really is kind of good question for me, you know. My grandfather grew up in Arizona and he can remember when he couldn’t go out and play because Geronimo was on the war path. He was back in Arizona in the late 1880s and early 1890s. His Grandfather was part of a colonizing mission down there. And they just had a real, I think, connection to wide-open spaces. My Grandfather was an interesting guy. He fought in World War I; he always believed, you know, that the best President United States ever had was Teddy Roosevelt. He was a Roosevelt Republican [and a conservationist. I think that idea of conservation, you know, was a Republican thing. That was a long time ago, you don’t hear the word “conservation” from the Republicans anymore, but those were different times. My Grandfather ] was devout LDS but he seemed to think that the land somehow was part of his destiny. There was an “LDS Manifest Destiny” that seemed tied to the land and he used to say that he was here for a purpose and that was because the land would make the people. Everybody says well, “we made this land.” He always said it was the opposite – “the land made us and that’s why we’re here.” He really loved the wide open spaces and he loved to travel; he loved to camp. That’s just the way he was. So I don’t know – They say everything skips a generation? My dad, he kind of did that, skip a generation. He was more of a, you know, a tie and suit guy. Dad was a businessman. He liked to camp but not as much as my grandfather did. Dad never hunted; my Grandpa used to like to hunt sometimes but he preferred to travel with the family and visit places he knew in his youth. As for me, I think I was just kind of born into it, but I don’t know if you call a religious ethic, maybe more of a cultural tie. BC: You mention that about the conservation movement, changing parties or disappearing. Do you have any thoughts on why that’s changed like that? SB: Well, yeah I do, but I don’t know if I should say them! [I enjoy reading about Gifford Pinchot and Theodore Roosevelt. They were powerful men and this was a powerful history with a powerful ethic.] And then I hear the [Bush] Administration decides they’re going to sell National Forest lands to private investors to help pay for the war in Iraq and, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  11   �well you know. It’s just a real struggle. But it seems to me that in natural resource management these days the real stimulus and motivation come from the other side of the isle, you know. And the Administration seems to have other priorities; conservation is not one of them; reclamation is not one of them. I think the budgets reflect that, but I think it speaks for itself. DE: So you’ve covered a lot of the Logan area and had a lot of connection with different parts of it. Is there one part of Logan Canyon that’s more special to you that you have special memories connected to more than other areas? SB: Yeah, there’s a couple. My favorite area is the Mount Naomi area. White Pine Canyon area is real special. [When I first came to the Logan District on my detail in [19]73 we were able to finish our project a day early so we had a free day before we had to return to Salt Lake. A few of us kids wanted to go camp, I think rather than just stay in the campground. So the Ranger recommended – he drew us a little picture and said, “Try White Pine Canyon. Go to this lake, Tony Lake and find the trailhead and just walk and then you’ll see it.”] And that’s what we did. We got over to White Pine Lake and I can remember there was a group of Boy Scouts in there. And they had a chainsaw, a sailboat and they were shooting .22s. We hiked down to the lake and confronted them and were threatened by the Scout Master. He told us to leave them alone and that he was a personal friend of the Ranger. And so we left and we spent the night and camped down over the hill out of gunshot range from these guys. But we thought it was strange. They brought a Jeep up there to haul this sailboat, and it was a little sunfish type of thing. I thought it was a real strange introduction to the Logan Ranger District and White Pine. But I loved White Pine Canyon, Boy Scouts aside. I’ve got just a lot of good memories of the area. We used to take the fire crew up there and we would train, we would go overnight and we would train doing initial attacks in the dark; wild times. I think another one of my favorite places is High Creek over Doubletop. There was a time when I [used to do a lot of horseback riding as a boy. When I started working Fire on the District, in the late fall, after fire season when things slowed down, the old fire control officer – Neff Hardman – used to let me take a pack string and go work the trails in the high country.] I can remember one fall packing up over High Creek Canyon North Fork into Idaho and then trying to go around Doubletop and work my way along the ridge to Tony Lake. It was always a disaster. It kind of got to be a joke around the District, about me getting lost in the mountains. And I can remember trying to bring a horse around Doubletop – I think the horse was pushing snow up to his chest, [and I think he started to roll and we almost went off a cliff there. To get off the mountain I had to lead him down Hells Kitchen. I remember the horse sliding down the snow fields sitting on its tail and using his front legs trying to slow himself down. They had an early snow fall that year but I couldn’t see it from the valley. I didn’t think there would be that much snow up there.] But High Creek Canyon, both the north and south fork are just special. If I was going to recommend a good, beautiful place to anybody it would just be that trail along Doubletop and then on top of Steam Mill over to the White Pine area. You just don’t see country like that around here. It’s all alpine, gorgeous, a lot of wildlife, you know, especially if you get out at in the evening or early morning. If you’ve got a horse, and are Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  12   �in the area you can always see something – usually an elk or a moose or something. It’s neat country. BC: I got to warn you a little bit, I’m just worried about that microphone. SB: Oh! DE: That’s good; I didn’t even catch that, yeah. So with all you’ve done – you’ve been involved a lot of different ways with Logan Canyon – how have you contributed to the changes in the land use policies? SB: Well I don’t think I really have. As the primary fire staff officer on the District much of my job is to administer policies, not to create policy. Policy decisions and direction usually come from a higher source and we tend to do the groundwork, the fieldwork. We make recommendations, but usually the decisions are made at a higher level. For example, when we begin to establish the Travel Plan on the District we had direction from Washington but we were the ones that actually developed and wrote it. [We did the mapping, hosted the public meetings and worked out the nuts and bolts of the thing. Of course we only made recommendations. The Forest Supervisor had to approve the plan. The idea of restricting motorized use on the Logan Ranger District seemed was revolutionary at the time. What it meant was that times were changing. It was driven by the huge increase in things like ATVs and motorcycles. They had became really popular but the damage they caused had become unacceptable.] BC: What year would that have been? SB: Oh 1970s, I guess. I mean I had never seen an ATV until they started popping these things out, I [guess in Japan. And by the late1970s they were everywhere. At first I thought it was kind of a neat thing; I think originally it was an off-highway vehicle or whatever. And they were designed to just go on the dirt roads -- kind of a safe alternative to two-wheel motorcycles. That really changed things, you know. By the 1980s it looked like something had to be done and so the Washington office ordered us to implement a “Travel Management Plan.” Washington and the Region gave us some parameters but the Forests did most of the work. It fell to the Districts to go] ahead and begin a road survey. So we surveyed all the roads on the District and then make decisions on what roads should remain open, what roads should remain closed. We were given some criteria – but they were real simple ones. The Ranger would ask us was how old are the roads and are the roads creating resource damage. And so we kind of went on that. The Division of State Wildlife had some other criteria they wanted to throw into the mix too. Those criteria were related to Wildlife needs and were probably a lot more restrictive to Motorized use than the ones we used. This was because they were dealing with a lot of decimation of the elk herds and declining populations. [You know, we were losing all the calving grounds; they were being overrun by folks on Snowmobiles and ATVs in the spring during the calving. So the State Wildlife people wanted to see more roadless areas or what they termed “refuge” areas.] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  13   �My job – and this was the greatest job in the world, this was so cool – I was tasked with mapping every road on the District. They gave me a motorcycle (a little Honda 90) and they gave me maps and said, “You get out there.” Me and two others seasonal employees ; a woman named Darcy Becenti and Tony Cowan from the timber crew spent all fall riding every dirt road, motorized trail, 2 track and dispersed camping site and mapping them. We had all the District quads and we basically surveyed all of the existing roads on the Logan Ranger District. Then we [took the maps that we’d made and we sat down and discussed each and every one of them with Dave [Baumgartner], the Ranger, and his staff. We made recommendations on what we should leave open and what we should close.] I thought many of the roads, as far as our policy went, were very reasonable and viable. I remember arguing, “We should probably just leave those open because they’re not hurting anything and they’re not causing any resource damage and they’re providing access.” We were pretty generous with wanting to leave most of the existing roads open. Other roads that were [obviously kids trying to get someplace they shouldn’t and, or where there was real erosion concerns, we pushed to close those. Once we have the road closed we started to do reconstruction/rehab on those areas. And it’s been a constant war ever since; there’s been violence, vandalism and there have been threats. It’s an amazingly emotional issue. I think it just wears people out.] BC: Would this have been part of the Rare II [Wilderness Roadless Area Review and Evaluation] process, or was it a different process? SB: Well it was part of it. The Rare I and Rare II were Roadless Area surveys in the mid to late 1970s. This happened prior to the Travel Plan from what I can remember. I worked on both of them and, as I remember it was just to identify roadless areas that might have wilderness qualities for future designation. It was a process mandated by Congress. During the Rare I survey, I was living in Kamas [Utah] and I wasn’t that involved in it. I was the Wilderness Ranger up on the Highline trail. But when we did Rare II, I was working in Logan and I remember being detailed down to the Supervisor’s Office in Salt Lake and working on the maps and the planning process. Everyone worked a lot on it. It was huge – reading and documenting public comments mapping veg. types, wildlife habitats, recreation use, land ownership and land use. We did it all. BC: Was that kind of the beginning of the real public comment period, do you think? SB: I don’t think so. I think there’s always been a process for public comments – I think it’s per law. But I think NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act], when the NEPA process was incorporated into the Forest Service the public comment process was more formalized. And that’s been kind of interesting. I think we had NEPA for years and I wasn’t even aware of it. I was always the guy that would build the trails or put out [the fires. I’m just a forest technician and all the big decisions are managed at a higher level, through Congressional Law or Administration Directives in Washington.] We just kind of implemented the direction that the Forest Supervisor determined were appropriate. He Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  14   �says to close a road, we’d go get a ‘dozer and we’d go close it. If we were told to open it up we would get a dozer and open it up. BC: That somehow segue into – how did the Mount Naomi wilderness and Wellsville wilderness come about? Do you remember that process? SB: Yeah, I was there! Gosh, when was that? I can remember that Ranger M.J. at the time was absolutely convinced that we needed a motorized trail to the top of the Wellsville cone for his motorcycles. I think I came to the Logan Ranger District about the time this was becoming a controversial issue back in [19]’78. I remember hiking up to the Wellsville cone with the trail crew foreman, Tom Esplin and actually surveyed and flagging out a possible trail. And then the Mount Naomi/Wellsville wilderness proposal completely shut that down and I think M.J. was pretty angry about that. Eventually we did build a trail up there but it was for non-motorized of course, and it was just across the cone. It allowed horse traffic to get around the cone safely. But the Wilderness Bill, I can remember when they had the congressionals here at the USU Forestry Camp. They had Jim Hansen and a US Senator from Colorado, I can’t remember his name, but he ran for President- BC: Oh, Gary Hart? SB: Yeah, Gary Hart. They did a fly-by in a helicopter of the proposed wilderness area and then landed at the Forestry Camp. We all drove up and listened to them talk. Gary Hart was very impressive; Jim Hansen was not; I think he fell asleep, he just seem disinterested. That was my impression of Hansen. The Wilderness proposal was fairly controversial and a lot of local people opposed it. It was a real battle and a compromise. I think a lot of people – there were a lot of forces that just didn’t want to see wilderness, not only in Utah but especially in Cache Valley. They just felt like there were too many conflicts and limitations. [I believe all the private and state holdings up in Franklin Basin were not included in the Wilderness Bill because there were people in the Cache County Commission that wanted to see development up there.] At the time Beaver Mountain was on National Forest land and it was under permit. I remember the Forest and the permittee, Ted Seeholzer, for management reasons, had wanted to keep Beaver Mountain a small day-use only type of ski area. As I recall, the conservation coming out of the Cache County Council was something like, “we’re loosing money because we’re not putting in condos” and “we need to develop up there and be an over-night, year round, destination resort.” They were determined that Franklin Basin, since it was all privately owned – or a lot of it was privately owned and State owned – that would be a good place to build a second Aspen or something. And so we had that conversation going on. I think a lot of that kind of thinking was why Congress and the Forest Service didn’t push the wilderness area past the ridgeline, you know, onto the east of the Mount Naomi ridgeline. A lot of it is just ownership. It was interesting that these private and State sections in Franklin Basin were eventually include into the National Forest system through the land exchange for the Olympics. At that time there was talk about the possibility of extending the wilderness boundary into Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  15   �the other side. [This was during the Forest Plan revision and the Forest was give direction to propose 5,000 acres to the National Wilderness System. But there was quite a bit of public and local political opposition to it, mostly from the motorized access community. So we lost the opportunity and the Forest purposed additional lands for wilderness designation over in the High Uinta Mountains, but not in here.] There’s a lot of political resistance to it. You know with the roadless area and then the Forest Plan; it’s been fairly controversial. BC: The public hearings, do you remember that were held here for the early [19]‘80s, the Utah wilderness – was there much support in the valley, along with the opposition? SB: I think back in the ‘80s and the early ‘70s, just personal observations, you know, I’m not sure how accurate they were but I think in the 1970s Logan was a small, predominantly agricultural, college town, and it was a party town. I think Cache Valley had half the population it does now. I remember that the politics seemed to be a lot more moderate, agriculture oriented, and that was a good mix. And I think in the ‘80s that kind of changed as I saw more and more developers sit on the County Council and less farmers and politics becoming more right winged to extreme. The dynamic of the area seemed to change. I think with the growth, urban development and the decline of agriculture attitudes are much more materialistic. It seemed like we have become much more growth oriented, and much less, you know, concerned with the quality of life or the protection of our resources. Cache Valley has become a lot more polarized. I noticed that with the snowmobile/cross country ski issue over the last couple of years. I’m thinking back to the ‘70s with the cross-country ski races and how well everyone seemed to get along. We used to have the Temple Flat cross-country ski race, do you remember that? BC: Um-hmm. SB: Yeah and just how different things were then. If you tried to do that now there would be a lot of organized resistance to it I can remember one of my jobs in the winter was that I would go up once a week – and this is a great job too – and I would ski all through the Sinks area and I would put poles on all the sink holes out there. Because snowmobilers had just started to use that day-use and it was becoming pretty popular and we had some bad accidents. The snowmobiles in the sinks would be moving pretty fast and sometimes they would drive into a sink hole and they would disappear. I think we had a fellow that broke his back and so the Ranger wanted us to put safety flag around the sink holes, so we did. We did that for about two years and then somebody said that well if we did that then we would assume liability, so we had to pull them out. But you know, I saw the use really change in the Sinks. It went from predominantly a family sledding, cross-country ski type of use, to pretty much snowmobile use only. And then of course with the trail grooming from Hardware Ranch to the Idaho boarder by the Utah State Department of Recreation, snowmobiling as become even more and more popular. It is now drawing people from all over the State and the country, thanks to special interest groups and advertising. So it’s a growing activity. But it hasn’t always been that way. This hasn’t always been the “premier” snowmobile capital of the world, to quote a local booster. To me it seems very recent of that type of use. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  16   �DE: When did you first start to notice the shift when snowmobiles became really big? SB: [Laughing] When I was told we would no longer be able to prune the trail for the Cross Country Ski race. The reason I was given was, “We’re not going to do it anymore because of user conflict.” [Also, there was some problems with the keg of beer the organizers provided at the end of the race. The Cache County Council had passed an ordinance prohibiting kegs in the County. And I think (I can’t remember when the last race was), but I thought that was sad. It was another one of these fun Forest Service jobs that seem to keep disappearing. I looked forward to the two days you got to ski with the course with your pruners and chop out all the dead fall so the skiers could get through. I think the last race was probably in the – early [19]‘80s?] BC: Early ‘80s, yeah because it was when I was in school I think. SB: Yeah! BC: They finished off – SB: Yeah and then it just seemed like everyone had a snowmobile and that’s all you saw in the upper Logan Canyon area. I remember one spring when I was helping Mike Jenkins with his Fire Class– Mike Jenkins used to teach a forestry class on fire at USU. Because he used to help me with my fire training for the Hot Shot Crew I would have some of my fire folks go over and help him with his training. When he did his field day for his red car fire class I would supply him with tools and instructors. I can remember one year we were working up at Tony Grove doing some line construction, there was quite a bit of snow on the ground, it must have been mid-May and we had an issue with some of the snowmobilers that were unloading and going up Louis M. Turner canyon to access the Tony Lake area. The canyon was closed to snowmobiles but apparently it was the only way they could get to the Lake as the snow had all melted on the Tony road. The Travel plan was new and most people didn’t take it seriously. I had to stop class and go over and tell them they couldn’t take their machines up the canyon. It was posted but the just rode around it. I called the office on the radio and was told that it was illegal and I that I needed to stop them. [It was pretty tense and they were not happy. They explained their side of the issue and the whole deal seemed like a big misunderstanding. It wasn’t violent, but there was a lot of hostility there. And I didn’t realize that snowmobiling was such a big thing, you know. [Laughing] When the snow melted, you just moved on, but apparently not.] So I think that must have been in the late ‘80s – ’89, maybe ’88. But I noticed there was a lot more of a combative atmosphere then, a lot more passion than in the 1970s. You know, as you get more use, you get more restrictions and then you know it’s just kind of the way things are. You just tend to – if you work for the Forest Service, you’re in the middle. You try to just kind of work the middle, you know, and make a decision for the resource. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  17   �DE: So you talked about a lot of ways that political changes and society changed and things to influence the land-use policies. Can you think of any ways that the land-use policies have influenced change themselves? SB: I’m thinking: Land-use policies that influenced change? Well, in the fire world, Smoky the Bear could be… and “prevent forest fires” may be policies that have changed or at least forced change. Such as the fire suppression doctrine in the 1940s and ‘50s to the fire prevention message – is that kind of what you’re looking at, or? Fire Suppression to Fire Management? DE: That, or just any of the things in society that maybe you notice a problem you create a land-use policy and then the problem goes away, or you know with the snowmobilers and cross-country skiers. Have there been any ways that the social structure has been changed or has it adapted in any way to a new land use policy? SB: Well in the social structure I think what we’re seeing is more polarization which is unfortunate, [particularly in recreation. There’s more divisiveness out there. And pretty much what we’ve found is that segregation seems to work the best; which I hate to say it. For example, because of user conflicts with the snowmobile/cross-country ski people, just you know, segregating the extremist. Particularly with the cross-country ski community because in their world the presence of heavy snowmobile use, well it kind of detracts from their experience. If you ever ski you know that the snow compaction, the noise, the smell; it’s just not the kind of experience you are looking] for. On the other hand, skiers really don’t seem to impact the quality of snowmobiling that much. With the cross-country skiers using the snowmobile tracks, I mean the snowmobiles may have to slow down a little bit, but I can’t see a big impact. Personally, I ski whenever I can, and snowmobiles in the area really don’t bother me too much. I can see segregation in some areas because of just the huge numbers. Forty or fifty years ago it was pretty much everybody being courteous and that sort of thing, you know, recreated together. I think with many motorized users there’s a different value system and what constitutes a good experience. I’m not saying one’s right and one’s wrong, but there is sort of that different level experience that people demand or what they want to have for themselves. Some need solitude, unbroken powder, some need speed and some want a party atmosphere. So user conflicts would certainly be a big issue. Fire is one. But I think growth and development, you know, nationally and locally trumps everything. One issue on the Logan Ranger District is Logan Canyon. That’s always been a huge issue: how much development do you want up there? The old ranger MJ was passionate that Logan Canyon would not be turned into a utility corridor. And he fought anybody, tooth and nail [laughing] to make sure that that didn’t happen. And then he retired. The next Ranger that came in thought that some utility improvements would be appropriate, you know. I think the big issue for us was really that the power line over to Beaver Mountain and what that might curtail. Once you had power there then other things could follow and I know that was a pretty passionate issue on the District and it was debated long and hard in the district staff meetings. And it was eventually felt that that was a reasonable concession, you know, for the ski resort. A lot of people felt like Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  18   �that was going to be the beginning of an urban canyon boom. Once you got power in the [canyon, development and sprawl would follow. That was because much of the land in the upper canyon was under State and Private ownership.] The land exchange was pretty big. Back in I think it was the [19]‘80s we did an exchange. The state was looking for money trying to turn the state trust lands into something that they could develop revenues to support the State public education system. One alternative that they came up with was trade those state in-holdings on public lands like National Parks, National Forests or any federal public lands and then trade them for sub-surface mineral, gas and oil leases. The thought was these gas and oil leases would generate huge amount of income to the schools. Everyone thought that this was a pretty good deal. And this was the proposal that was what was negotiated out, but when it came to the Logan Ranger District things changed. The Logan District was one of the few Districts on the Wasatch-Cache National Forest that had large amounts of State sections of land inside its borders. [And so an exchange between the Forest Service and the State that seemed like a natural thing that would benefit everyone.] But the political climate at the time was very pro growth and that again, the County wanted to get something out of it, which was economic development in Logan Canyon. [As we were told at a staff briefing, they (the Cache County Council) went to Congress and complained that the exchange didn’t benefit the County and that they would oppose it. The council did not want to turn Franklin Basin over to the Forest Service because that would limit the kind of development that they wanted to see. So there was some pretty sharp political maneuvering and the State was given the sections around and including Beaver Mountain Ski area. These lands that normally would have been administered but the State Department of Forestry were given to the School and Institutional State Land Administration. The idea was that the State could sell the lands to private investors and, or they could expand the resort and create more of a tax revenue. So that’s why Beaver Mountain is under SITLA.] BC: Right, yeah, the state, yeah. SB: And there were some very, very passionate, and I can remember, emotional arguments. That was when Dave Baumgartner was here [District Ranger]. And Dave would probably be the one to tell you about that. But that was huge. We just felt like things just changed you know. I felt like that really brought the canyon into kind of a threatened and endangered status with that land transfer. I don’t know, it depends on what you want to see up there. BC: Well, you know just from the fire perspective has there been an increase as residency has increased up there has that caused different issues for fire? SB: Yeah, that’s another huge issue. It’s a national issue. That’s what we call the wildlandurban interface or the term we say is “WUI.” I know, I had to look it up too! [Laughing] But in terms of the future I think nationally that is such a big issue, it accounts for billions of dollars in fire suppression cost every year defending structures, mostly homes on or Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  19   �adjacent to public lands because of all the in-holdings. There’s California, of course, every year and last year in this Region we had the Sun Valley fires around Ketchum, Idaho and around McCall, Idaho on the Payette. There’s a lot of private money, you know, invested in those communities and a lot of beautiful summer homes up there that were threatened. And it’s quite expensive to protect these developments. There is an expectation from the public that their tax dollars will pay for protection. With regards to Fire strategies our first priority has always been Public and firefighter safety and to protect private property. But it’s the desire to protect these resorts, summer homes and small towns that kind of drives the cost up and we are not trained to deal with structure fires so there is a real safety issue here. BC: Has that always been the case? SB: Pretty much, yeah. It’s just that we’ve never had the amount of development on private property in the interface that we’ve had now, you know. And it’s not just the private property; it’s like putting 3-4 million dollar log cabins in the middle of a forest that is going to burn sooner or later. BC: Right. SB: So there’s a huge expense in protecting those homes. As far as our area goes I think we’re seeing, in my opinion, the biggest threat potential is going to be Rich County. [With all the development going on, not only Garden City, but everything to the south of Garden City we are gong to see some real problems.] And it looks like sooner or later, one way or another, all that ground from the Idaho border all the way down to Round Valley and Meadowville is going to be urban interface, second home type things. Most of the big land owners, the ranchers have already sold or are looking to sale. They’re adjacent right to the National Forest. So I think in the future there’s going to be a huge responsibility. For the Forest Service of course, you know these are not National Forest lands, but they are adjacent to public lands and we do have cooperative agreements with state and private and so we are involved. Most of those fires, what we’re seeing now are fires that start on private land and then run into the National Forest. That is what happened here in Cache Valley all last summer. And then once they cut across that line then it’s our problem and we go into a fire suppression mode. We’ll implement what we call a shared resource and unified command organizational structure with the State and local cooperators. I think the fire guys in Cache County and Rich County are great to work with. From my experience, they’re some of the best in the business. I think the one fun thing about all this is that it gives me a chance to work with those guys. They’re just really great guys to deal with. They’re all about protecting houses you know, and we’re about protecting trees. And so we kind of, we’ll do the trees, they’ll do the houses. But they’re a lot of good energy when we get together on these local fires. DE: You said earlier that you’re not so involved in making the policy, just kind of they make the policy and tell you what to go and do. Has there ever been a specific issue – you know, a big one or small one – that you felt extra passionate about and so you tried to influence then, the policy? Whether it was writing a letter or talking to somebody? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  20   �SB: All the time – I have files full of letters that I’ve kept over the years! And I always try to throw my two cents in. There’s been some really interesting policies. I think, boy, land exchanges you know have been one. You know these are all internal discussions that we tend to have. I remember one of the big policies we had was on bolting in Logan Canyon. DE: Bolting for rock climbing? SB: Yeah, this is rock climbing. And as a climber, I was against it. I was not just against it, I was passionately against it. And that’s because I started working for the Forest Service in Little Cottonwood Canyon. My first duty station was Alta, Utah. I kind of grew up at Alta. I started skiing at Alta when I was six years old. Lived up there for years and I used to climb all that granite since I was in high school. But that really changed. By the mid 1970s rock climbing became so popular in the canyon that it became kind of a commercial zoo where they had vendors down there at the base of all these rocks, selling equipment. There was no parking. There were just so many issues. There were no restrooms there. And it was tough; sometimes you’d have to wait for two or three hours just to do a climb if you wanted to wait in line. And I think there was a group going to Utah State that thought that was a good think and they wanted to see the same thing happen up here. And so what we found out was one summer they had put up 200 bolt routes. Not only in Logan Canyon but also in the Mount Naomi wilderness using electronic grinders and stuff like that. And therefore once that got out, phone calls were made and then the debate came. They came in and we had some interesting discussions; we had some nice tours. There was the issue of the primrose up in Logan Canyon which is a rare and endangered species and we felt at the time that was one thing we could hang our hats on to try and reduce the level of that, at least limit the area. But I was pretty vocal on that. And I think I used to – I would kind of email the Ranger with comments and personal opinions. I think [I] drove the Rec. Forester, Chip Sibbernsen, crazy with my comments to the bolters. He was in charge developing the climbing and bolting policy for the District. He was such a nice guy and always trying to see both sides. Anyway, he took me with a grain of salt. I guess I made him laugh. You know, they should have fired me, but I kept it “in-house” and with things like that you have to. But I was pretty passionate. I thought it was littering and what I was afraid of was that they would start to turn Logan Canyon into a parking lot: vendors, and kind of a climbing destination playground. And this is exactly what they wanted to do. I remember the discussion was that this was world-class climbing and that people from all over the world wanted to come here and climb in Logan Canyon around China Row. They said they were already actively promoting the area with climbing magazine articles, guide books and that kind of stuff. Yeah, ask Scott Datwyler about that. [I remember Scott was running Trailhead Sports which was the local rock climbing supply store and he was kind of in that group too, or at least some of the people in the climber group worked for him.] I think they finally gave up and moved on. Their plan to make Logan Canyon a world rock climbing center didn’t happen. As far as I know the bolting has really slowed down and they’ve kind of limited the bolting to Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  21   �certain areas. They’ve closed off a lot of areas because of the primrose. So that was one area that was oh, I got pretty involved in. The other was the hardening of the Tony Grove picnic area up there. They wanted to bring in asphalt pads and harden some of the sights and put a big trail around it. And I was against that. [Laughing] I thought they should never lay asphalt near Tony and we had a long battle about that. [Chip and the Forest Engineers wanted to harden the area to accommodate more users and eventually turn the lake into a “Fee Demo” area.] It made sense but a lot of us wanted to limit use and reduce impacts that way. I don’t like the idea of charging money to use public lands. The other one was Tony Grove guard station. We were looking into turning that into a historical center and then putting the snowmobile parking lot out there. Some of us were really against that one because we were afraid with the snowmobile parking lot adjacent to the historic guard station we may see some vandalism and some damage. As it turns out we’ve never had a problem at all, but you know, I remember that was a big battle, a big discussion. There were plans to turn the [Tony compound] into an interpretive center where they would have a full time host. The host would dressed up in period costumes, do a little gardening and do interpretive programs for visiting tourist. In the past it’s always been a working guard station and we liked it that way. We kept our horses there and did a lot of work out of there every summer. We would run our trail crews, our pack streams out of the station, when we’re working the Tony Lake or Mt. Naomi high country. I don’t think they do anymore because everybody drives cars now, but we used to ride a lot and we would work our crews out of there and we didn’t want to lose that. What other battles have we fought? Boy, trails; keeping trails open, closing trails. I’ve always been on the side that we need to keep the trails open. I think the Rec. people have been on the side that we can keep them open, but if we can’t maintain them you know, maybe it’s time to let some of lesser used trails go. So they’ve kind of shut down some of my favorite trails, or stopped doing maintenance. They just don’t have the money to do it anymore. So that’s an issue. Road issues are always there. I think one of the most difficult issues I remember dealing with was the reconstruction of the road and bridges in Logan Canyon back in the 1990s. Another hot issue is the constant battle with the public over road maintenance. Boy, it is difficult to get folks to understand that the money and the time and the effort we’ve spent on trying to keep the backcountry roads clear and up to a good standard. I mean, the public constantly complain about road conditions. You could spend a million dollars on them and everyone is happy. Then it’ll rain and then the hunting season starts and then the high school kids are up there with their four-wheel drives and put ruts in them, you know and the roads are worse than ever. It just seems like it’s a loosing battle – and then we don’t have the money to go back and fix them again for three years. We do everything kind of a three year rotation, so that’s always been a big battle. DE: So who would you say were some of your most influential teachers, both in your field and just in your interactions with the canyon; either formal or informal? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  22   �SB: Well, I think Neff Hardman. He was the GDA (the General District Assistant), bachelor farmer from Mendon. Neff had worked here, grew up in Mendon; he died in the house he was born in. And Neff, he just loved the Forest Service; he loved the country around here. He was a great teacher and had a great work ethics and a great land ethic. He was kind of a legend too. I mean, I knew about this guy years before I ever met him, you know, just rumors down south in Salt Lake about Neff. M.J. Roberts was an interesting guy, interesting Ranger. I think he had some good qualities but a lot of people thought he was a little bit heavy handed and like to micro manage. Some of the people that worked on the District when I started were really good people but Neff seemed to hold everything together. I really, really appreciated his influence on the District. Another person I met when I came to Logan was Ann Shimp. BC: I’ve heard – didn’t she write the guide book with Scott? BS: Yeah, Ann was here when I first came. Then there was Sabina Kremp that ran the YCC program, and Mike Jenkins over at USU, he was kind of an old Forest Service Logan boy. As far as the canyons go, you know, there are a lot of fascinating people that sort of haunt them. Some of the old herders that you run into are really interesting. I really don’t remember all their names. Some were local but a lot came from all over world, from Europe, Mexico and South America. I can remember the names of some of the owners. They may or may not be worth remembering but the guys that work for them and have been up in the canyons for years, they’re good people to know. They know the country, and they just have kind of interesting sense about them. You meet so many interesting people up there. I meet old Forest Rangers now and then, old Forest Service guys that wonder around and make sure things are still being run properly. I don’t write their names down, but I should. They’ll come up and they’ll talk your ear off if you let them. And that’s good. Ted Seeholzer, who owns and runs Beaver Mountain, has been up there forever. Ted’s boy used to work for me and I think he’s kind of managing the place now. His name is Travis. He was on the Logan Hot Shot crew back in 1996. Anyway, Ted’s always been an interesting character in Logan Canyon and he’s had some real influence on some important issues. I think anyone that likes to ski in Cache Valley doesn’t want to risk getting on the bad side of Ted. DE: What was their last name again? SB: Ted Seeholzer? Ted Seeholzer DE: Seeholzer. SB: Yeah, and Ted’s been up there forever. I can’t say forever, but from before my time. BC: Did you ever know Doc Daniels? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  23   �SB: Very well. Yep, my first experience with Doc was seeing him running around in a meadow on the School Forest in the sinks. He was on one of his study plots chasing a porcupine around with a baseball bat trying to whack it on the head. [Doc hated porcupines because they ate his tree seedlings.] When I came to USU as a student, Doc was semi-retired but I knew him through the work he was doing with the Forest Service and Utah State University when I worked on the District. But I knew of Doc long before I came to Logan. When I started working for the Forest Service back in the early [19]‘70s a lot of the guys that I worked with were Utah State University Forestry students and they use to talk about Doc all the time. Back then you couldn’t be a Forestry Graduate at USU unless you could get passed Doc, you know, in his silviculture class. Silviculture class would kind of make you or break you and Doc was sort of the terror of the Forestry department. And I knew Doc through Cache County Historical Society. He loved Cache Valley History and would go to the meetings. A few years ago I was asked to give a presentation on the history of the Logan Ranger District and the Cache National Forest. I didn’t know it but Doc was in the audience and every time I missed something or got something wrong Doc would shout out and correct me. I was getting kind of mad but when they turned on the light Doc waved and everyone laughed. Doc always came to the meetings to correct us and make sure we got it right! Yeah, we know Doc. We’ll miss him. Dick Shaw just passed away too, this last month – BC: Yeah, I heard that. SB: And Dr. Shaw was my old Botany professor when I was a student. He used to kick around quite a bit up in Logan Canyon. He use to tease us Forestry Students because we to take his botany class. He thought we only cared about trees and he liked wildflowers. He told us once, “If you guys can’t/couldn’t cut it down with a chain saw you didn’t want anything to do with it.” I have a lot of good memories of my old forestry professors at USU – Carl Johnson was one of my professors and the Extension Forester from Utah State. He wrote the books on native Utah plants and sort of pioneered conservation education in the elementary schools. Carl just did all kinds of good things for the department and the community. He liked his students and it was always fun in his class. I remember spending hours going on Carl’s field trips. They were always fun and not to demanding. Going up the canyon with him was interesting but he loved to talk and sometimes it got a little long. So there are a lot of people in the canyons that you meet… you run into and come to know. A lot of the folks that I knew have passed on. When I first came here there was a gentleman that worked for us who could remember logging back in the 1910s and ‘20s when he was a boy with his dad, from Wellsville. His name was Albert Johnson and Albert remembered [coming over Callie Canyon in a wagon and bringing the lumber down the canyon to the sawmill in Logan. Now a lot of them are gone; but I enjoyed knowing them and hearing their stories.] DE: What are some of the books or writings, if there are any that have influenced your feelings about land-use management and policy? SB: Oh, well you know I think from early on there are some great books out there. But if I was to give you one book you know – I’ve got thousands of books at home. Gifford Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  24   �Pinchot’s Breaking New Ground; it’s a great read. I’ve got some good books on the self – oh, what do I have? There’s a bunch of books over there. BC: What strikes you most importantly about Pinchot’s book? SB: What I like about Pinchot was his energy and his passion. He just has a passion for conservation and service, I mean beyond anything I see today. The early 1900s was a very formative time in the country’s history, and it was a progressive time and it was an exciting time. There were new ideas, people with energy and high ideals and resource conservation was a new kind of “cause” – brand new. They were just walking into something for the first time, starting from the ground up. And if you read it, you know, you feel that excitement and purpose. I read about Pinchot and Roosevelt a long time ago in High School and college. I really thought Breaking New Ground was a powerful book. I read a lot of books; I think you know now my background and training is not all in Forestry. I’m a trained historian, not a forester. BC: Your initial degree was in history then? SB: Yeah. And Geography; I had a double major. And so I used to read a lot of crazy history books when I was a kid. History and adventure were my first love. I always enjoyed early American history, adventures, mountainmen, frontiersman type things. I think I was reading those frontier [adventure books from the second grade on; I think most kids my age did. Our heroes were Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. And I think the heroes these days are like the Power Rangers, or –] BC: Yeah! [Laughing] SB: It’s just kind of a different generation. I don’t know – outer space, cyber cops or something like that. BC: Utah State went through a period where they hosted a lot of writer workshops with fairly prominent writers that came in working canyon. Were you ever involved in that at all? SB: No, but Ted Kindred was. I think you’re going to interview Ted. BC: Yeah, right. SB: Yeah, Ted – that dirty dog [Laughing], he used host a dinner for the Western Writers Conference at his summer home in Logan Canyon for the writers. Ted loves interesting people and good conversation. BC: Um-hmm. SB: You know, Ted had a summer home up at the mouth of Beirdneau Canyon. Ted and I were really good friends; we both collect books. And I’ve got a lot of signed, first editions. And every time I think I’ve got something really neat, Ted has it, plus five more. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  25   �BC: [Laughing] SB: But he used to go up and he would always find out which writers were coming to his dinner and he would go buy their books. And then during the course of the night he would get the books out and have the authors them sign them. And I think his funniest one was Edward Abbey; I guess he’s got some good stories about Abbey. BC: Yeah. SB: He’ll be a good one. I was never involved. That must have been before my time. BC: I was thinking – it seemed like Tom Lyon was involved and stuff. SB: Yeah. I remember Tom. Tom’s boy actually worked for me. BC: He passed away? SB: Yeah, in the avalanche in Logan Dry Canyon. Max Lyon. He’d worked for the YCC and he worked for me in the YACC program. He was a good kid. One thing I remember being really pleased about when I first came here was that District had the YCC program. We had a great camp, we had great leaders, and it was fun to get to meet the kids from Cache Valley. I remember Paul Box – Thad’s boy – was in it. They had a lot of USU professors’ kids in the camp. We also had the “born and bread” kids, you know, the farmers, the ranchers, the locals. And it was just a great mix, and what a great opportunity to kind of integrate a whole generation to public land use and conservation. [Ronald Reagan – it was one of the programs he axed, you know, when he became president. All those national conservation and public work programs went away.] But I thought it was a great program. That’s how I started in the Forest Service. I was in high school, it was the early [19]‘70s Earth Day movement, you know, and “the Environment is going to be the new frontier” type of thing. As for the YCC’ers, I keep track of some of the kids. I hear things about Paul once in a while from his dad, and some of the other ones; I’ve done better with some of the leaders. DE: Are there any other particular stories you’d like to share that we haven’t probed at you with questions yet? SB: On Logan Canyon? Well, a lot of time up there wondering around, you know. I can think of a lot of thunderstorms where you’re caught up on Mount Naomi and ducking for cover, and you know, all of those good things. When I first came here I did a lot of climbing in the canyon – no bolts. DE: Traditional? SB: Yeah, well, just chalks and so that was a good thing. It’s been an interesting kind of career. As far as work goes I think some of the more interesting projects we’ve done have been the wildlife habitat improvement with our juniper cuts up in the canyon here. We Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  26   �used to do those and it wasn’t so much that we did them, it was the crazy ways that we used to try and get our poles off the cliffs and down here to the highway. Back then we would pick them up throw them off a cliff, pick them up at the side of the road and load them on a trailer. We would take them down to the boneyard which is across the street from Zanavoo; then we would soak them in creosote and that would be our fence post. We did that for years. That was always a fun job; it was dangerous job and I’m just amazed we didn’t get someone hurt, you know, working when it was four below zero we’d be up there with our chainsaws, climbing cliffs and trying to do little things. It was fun. BC: [Laughing] SB: Oh, gosh, a lot of burning in the fall. That used to be one of our fun projects; we’d burn slash piles in the early winter. Just as we’d get a couple feet of snow on the ground we would go in and burn. And we had some pretty interesting times there. You know when Ranger Dave came he was excited about burning, he wanted to do spring burns and I think I can remember we were real worried about these things getting away from us, but he encouraged us. He wanted to try and get all the slash cleaned up. And Dave was very progressive in his thinking. He was thinking wildland fire use and reduction in fuels way before it became in vogue. I can remember the problem we had was that we work until about 10 o’clock at night or midnight, and then we would pull out and drive down the canyon to the warehouse. The idea was that the night air would cool them off and the piles would go out. I think we were chasing burn piles around in August – it was really a bad idea because some of the big piles never went out. But it was kind of fun coming out of the Sinks about midnight; it was interesting not only for the animals you saw out on the road, but for the sneaky timber thieves who were up there stealing lumber at two in the morning! [Laughing] And so that was kind of fun – come up and there would be three guys loading up fire wood at midnight and we would have to stop and have a conversation with them. But yeah, that was fun. DE: I guess my last question – what should Logan Canyon, the Logan Ranger District, look like if it’s a healthy system? SB: Well, I think if it’s a healthy system, I think you would want to see a stabilization of growth, public use and the maintenance of conditions. When I say maintenance of conditions, I think the last hundred years you’ve seen a tremendous improvement in range and timber, than what was there say, 100 years ago – 1908. The photographs bare that out. But the user conflicts seem to be on the rise. Land management is becoming a social issue and a political issue… and societies’ priorities are changing. Today, when there is a conflict between conservation and resource protection and politics, more often than not, politics wins and the land looses. BC: Right, yeah. SB: You know we had a huge controversy with grazing issues in Logan Canyon a few years ago: cows and sheep in the watershed. We still do but the truth is; things look pretty darn Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  27   �good up there. You go up there, you walk the ground and you look at it and it’s not in bad shape. I don’t think livestock grazing is a real threat as long as we use good management. I think the greatest threat to resource quality in Logan Canyon is a lot of new development and I’m talking the urban-interface again. And I think that could happen. And I think that’s going to have a huge impact on not only people that use the canyon for reception but on water quality, wildlife fire protection and scenic quality. It’s just not the urban sprawl and the numbers of people It’s also all the paraphernalia they bring with them. I think that you could see something real similar to what you’re seeing on the Angeles or Cleveland in southern California today. You’re going to have too many people and interest fighting over land use and management priorities. I’m not sure I would trust all motives to have the best interest of the Forest and the public at heart. I think it is [important try and maintain the environmental integrity of the canyon and protect wildlife habitat and the quality of the water. If we want to do that then we have to make some hard choices, and use is going to be more and more restrictive. And I hate to see that, but I think that’s probably where we’re heading. You just have more people wanting more access and having great demands on the land.] DE: Brad, do you have any more questions? BC: No, I think I’m okay right now. SB: Was this of any value to you, or? BC: Yeah, it was interesting. DE: This is very interesting, yes. BC: Great, yeah. DE: Well, thank you very much for your time today. SB: You’re welcome. DE: Again, this is for the Oral History of Logan Canyon Land-Use and Policies Project. And Darren Edwards, Brad Cole and Scott Bushman. Thank you. SB: Thank you. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Scott  Bushman     Page  28   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/93">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/93</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-11-12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Scott Bushman interview, 23 April 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource The interview contains information on the career of Scott Bushman for the Forest Service. He was involved heavily in fire suppression and the Logan Hot Shot crew. He also discusses how he first got involved in Logan Canyon as a youth in the Youth Conservation Corps. He also gives a history of the Forest Service in this area and their involvement, along with Utah Agricultural College (now Utah State University) in teaching forestry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bushman, Jon Scott, 1953- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Edwards, Darren Subject The topic of the resource Bushman, Jon Scott, 1953---Interviews Bushman, Jon Scott, 1953--Career in Forestry Forests schools and education--Utah--Logan--History United States. Forest Service Logan Canyon (Utah) Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District Logan Interagency Hotshot Crew (Utah) Hitchhiking--West (U.S.) Youth Conservation Corps (Utah) Vacations--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Forest fires--Utah--Logan Canyon--Prevention and control Young Adult Conservation Corps (Utah) Tree planting--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp Forest fire fighters--Utah--Logan Canyon Forest fire fighters--Training of--Utah--Logan Canyon USU Forestry Fire Crew (Logan, Utah) Forest fires--Utah--Wellsville Mountain Wilderness--Prevention and control Utah State University--Faculty Wildland-urban interface--Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest Forests and forestry--Multiple use--Law and legislation Wildlife conservation--Utah--Logan Canyon Land use mapping--Utah--Logan Canyon Land use--Law and legislation--Utah Utah--Politics and government United States. National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon--Planning--Citizen participation United States. Wilderness Act Rock climbing--Law and legislation--Utah Pinchot, Gifford, 1865-1946. Breaking New Ground Baumgartner, Dave Roberts, M.J. Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Utah. School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Alta (Utah) Logan (Utah) Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Rich County (Utah) Herd Hollow (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Beaver Mountain (Utah) Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Yellowstone National Park Wellsville Mountain Wilderness (Utah) Mount Naomi Wilderness (Utah) White Pine Canyon (Utah) High Creek Canyon (Utah) Doubletop Mountain (Utah) United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 2000-2009 20th century 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd6ScottBushman Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 23 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-23 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0b9702331cb03a29e4287af0cbb66f50.mp3 d9194660a07c0c2d5586679413fdc4ba https://highway89.org/files/original/d086d7694ee188f757e113a90fd883ee.pdf 7b7b84870fb24b512c88d9ec13c5c68d PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Garth Barker Place of Interview: Downtown Logan, Utah Date of Interview: 4 February 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole and Clint Pumphrey Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz Professional: PMD660 Transcription Equipment used: PowerPlayer Transcription Software, Executive Communication Systems Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Susan Gross Brad Cole; Randy Williams (8 March 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Garth Barker discusses his involvement with issues regarding multiple-use access for the Logan Canyon. He talks about meeting with politicians about concerns. He also speaks about his experience as a member of Search and Rescue. Reference: BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) CH = Clint Pumphrey (Interviewer; USU history graduate student) GB = Garth Barker NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BC: Hi, this is Brad Cole from Utah State University Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives. It’s February 4th today; we’re visiting with Garth Barker in downtown Logan and we’re talking about Logan Canyon Land-Use Management Project. And also sitting in with us is Clint Pumphrey [USU Special Collections graduate student worker and project fieldworker]. Garth, I always like to start an oral history at the very beginning and ask when and where you born? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  1   �GB: I was born in Logan, 1949. BC: Okay. So you grew up in Logan? GB: Been here all my life. BC: And if you don’t mind, maybe tell us who your parents were. GB: They’re still alive: Levere and Lunella Barker, and they’re still here. BC: And there were from Logan also? GB: Yes, not born here, but they moved here from other parts of Utah. BC: The project [Land Use Management] is working on Logan Canyon; and so maybe you could tell us a little about your experiences with Logan Canyon and land use issues that are -- . GB: Well, I’ll start in the beginning. Growing up here, before the valley grew so much, kids lived, you know around the foothills. That’s where you spent your time. Whether you were riding a horse or hiking or later on skiing; when motorized come along it was motorcycles and snowmobiles. Back in the [19]‘60s and the late ‘50s you didn’t have a mall; nobody went “downtown.” You bummed around the hills and because you are a product of your environment, that’s kind of where all your interest went. We hunted; at times you would start with the first season and go all the way through and fill the holes in with fishing. And of course, long time before the valley grew so quick; seems like only the last 15 years has all the holes filled in. Later on, around 1985-84, when the Forest Plan was being re-done at that time, they started closing things down. Way back during MJ Roberts time—he was the District Ranger at the time—and this come as a surprise. How could they do that? Why are they closing this down and closing that down. And at that time most of us had been exploring on with motorcycles, trail bikes, horses. Snowmobiles weren’t a big thing, but they come along with winter travel plans. And that started to affect the snowmobiling. At the time—up to about 1988-89—I was a skier. And I remember crossing the first other cross-country ski tracks one day, wondering who in the world was up here in my mountains, on skis like I was. Because before that I’d seen trappers (guys that were trapping using snow shoes) but I was the only one that I knew of on cross-country skis. And it was just purely for recreation; or sometimes you would go out on skis to hunt coyotes or something. But it was a shocker. So I tracked the guy down and it ended up being a guy and his girlfriend. And I had had my wife with me at the time. We set up on a sunny hillside and talked. But that was probably 19—that would have been about 1980—when I bumped on to the first other cross-country skier. But, pretty interesting. Then I got into snowmobiling about 1986; mostly to supplement my skiing opportunities in the winter. And you have to understand that during the summer it was still motorcycles and horses and four-wheel drive trucks. But things were getting shut down. And being involved with a lot of local people because the business here, the gas station and everything, attracted a good variety of people. You become like a barber shop; you become aware of the issues. And they were Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  2   �concerned and so I got involved. They made me the president of the Snowmobile Association. And that really forced me into it. And of course it’s gone on since then. BC: How long has there been a Snowmobile Association? Is it the new association, was that -- ? GB: It had been around a long time before I got involved. I think it was formed in 1975 by some of the locals out of Providence, Utah. And so it had been around a long time. And of course the machines grew and advanced and become a little more reliable about the time I was getting into it. It was a viable form of winter transportation. It should be excused! BC: [Laughing] GB: But there was also – for me it was a tool to get me into the backcountry so I could use my skis. BC: Um-hmm. GB: But as you get older and your knees start to go that machine becomes a better tool than the skis. CP: So when do you remember the first real challenges to snowmobiles and Logan Canyon and places around here? GB: When I heard that they were closing down the base range in Green Canyon because it was going to be included in the 1984 Utah Wilderness Act. And prior to that time the two canyons: Providence Canyon and Green Canyon were access for the snowmobiles into the backcountry. They removed the Green Canyon at that time, that access, and left the Providence access. Mainly because Providence was quite developed with the Johnson Quarry up there, it didn’t fit the description of Wilderness. So it was an area that we lost. And since then there’s been attempts at in-roads adding to that area and I’ve been fully involved in that. As early as 1993-94 we formed a group of people from all aspects. Headed up by the Chamber of Commerce we produced a Citizens’ Proposal. And we tried over a course of three years to iron out the problems between the two winter user groups; and produced a document that still has some viability today and has been used numerous times during arbitration and mediation. But way back in ’93-94 we were really involved in it. BC: Back up a little bit about the 1984 Wilderness Act, were you involved in the meetings and stuff leading up to that? GB: CP: No, no prior to that. And it was a mistake on a lot of us’ behalf is we wasn’t involved. Yeah, Wilderness is a good thing. I mean as early as the Wilderness Act of 1964, it’s a good idea – preserve it. But by 1984, a lot of us out west didn’t pay any attention to it until it hit home. And of course back then the parameter set for wilderness were a lot better; they’ve been degraded and watered down since then. What’s considered wilderness now, or a Wilderness Study Area certainly doesn’t have the same quality that they did back then. But when they started hitting home and shutting you down, then you start getting involved. And still even as late as probably 1990, we didn’t understand the process. And I would daresay the majority of backcountry users still don’t. We tried to educate them on it; they don’t want to get involved. And I would say that is the majority of people: “don’t take away my snowmobiling,” or “don’t take away my skiing,” is as far as they want to get involved. Why do you think that is? GB: I think, well if I could answer that question I’d be [inaudible]. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  3   �[Laughing] GB: Too busy; too busy with making a living and playing. And until some things are taken from them, removed from their opportunity, they don’t care. You talk to the guys up here – they don’t care what’s happening in Southern Utah unless they’re a group that goes down to Moab or something. They’re not going to make comment on it. They might once a year go hunt sage grouse, but when a comment period comes around, put out by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife, they’re not going to take time to make a comment on it. And then I think the other thing that has made it far easier is the advances in computer technology and of course the web. Now information can be disseminated to almost everybody, instantaneously. So today, as opposed to ten years ago, there’s far more people involved. I think both sides now are holding their own. They’ll squabble over little pieces like we have here. But I think both sides are more understanding now because of that tool. CP: So how have your efforts to combat the restrictions on outdoor recreation and things, how have those changed over the last – well since you’ve been working on them? GB: How have they changed? They changed . . . our approaches changed because we learned that grassroots movement didn’t work. We involved at one meeting (which was a workshop), during the early stages of the forest planning, we had almost 500 people to a public meeting. That had never been done before! To a Forest Service meeting over a Forest Plan. And it was kind of a shocker, but it didn’t amount to anything. It made no difference to the changes they were making; which was really kind of a low blow. You would think: okay, you’ve got 500 people here as opposed to the opposition (if you will) 50 people. And it made no difference. And I was a bit taken back by it and questioned which avenue to take at that point. And so I started to meet with politicians and I found out that the politicians needed the people. They didn’t particularly care about the issues either, but they voted. And if you go to a politician and say, “I have 750 registered voters that think like I do. I need your help.” They’ll say, “Okay, what can I do?” They need the people, you need the politicians and the people to get anything done. And that was a far better way to get things done. BC: Which politicians? Local politicians, or congress? GB: Actually, not even so much on local because you are dealing with a federal agency with the Forest Service, you had to deal with our federal senators and congressman. And worked real close with Jim Hansen while he was in office, and actually become a board member of a political pack that involved 11 other chairs from different aspect of outdoor recreation: from backcountry pilots to bighorn sheep hunters. And we would meet monthly in the back room of a Salt Lake restaurant that looked like a Mafia setting. Big dark oak table -- [Laughing] And being a political PAC of course we could have the politicians there. And they would be looking for our support and we would be looking for their support. And I met a lot of the current senators and congressmen at that point. That group of people numbered – the people they represented – probably a million and a half people. Not just in the state of Utah. So if a politician come in and said, “I need your support.” And you listen to him and his ideas, it was a big thing for him. Matheson wouldn’t be one of our congressmen without the support of that organization. But he understood that in his district there were an awful lot of people that hunted. And he sought out the support of Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, which was one of the chairs. And we Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  4   �discussed it and talked with his opponent (who was a Republican) and we decided that this Democrat was a better choice. BC: Hmm. GB: He had a far better view of what the people needed that his opponent. And we supported him. It didn’t really matter if he was a Republican or Democrat, but which one addressed the views of the people the best. CP: So what were the opinions of Matheson that you liked so much, specifically? GB: He was willing to listen to his people. He cared more about the guy existing on a ranch, than what was happening in the city; he had some pretty good homegrown values. And as a congressman, I think he’s a pretty good congressman. BC: GB: Did the pack have a name? Macc. M-A-C-C: Multiple Access Conservation Coalition. CP: So you talk about how you worked with a lot of federal politicians in your efforts. What was the makeup of your opponents? Were they federal environmental groups, or local type people, or? GB: Mostly, dealing with our issues here I was the only chair that was concerned with more than one aspect. I was concerned with motorized access as opposed to Backcountry Pilots or the Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife or something like that. Because there were issues that we bumped heads on within the coalition, within the pack. The hunting groups didn’t particularly advocate ATVs, and yet my concern for my area was access. But we worked it out within the group. Of course on the issue here on the Logan Ranger District it was a forest issue. And with the right political help you can force things, and we did. BC: How has your experience with the Logan Ranger District, how well has the management been and what would you think of the condition of it today versus 25 years ago? GB: Like any federal or state agency, they’re worth – not the job that they’re assigned to do – but their worth and ability to get the job done is directly determined by the people in there. If a particular District Ranger or department head has a personal agenda that’s going to affect how that entire section works. Over the past 20 years we’ve had good District Rangers, we’ve had a lot of interim District Rangers here. And for the most part they were good people, but they had their own personal agendas. Or maybe the worst case was they came into it unbiased but they allowed themselves to be affected by – and I hate to say it -- but they allowed themselves to be affected by university people. The University is a big entity here. The Outdoor Rec Department has a direct relationship with the Forest Service. District Rangers and Recreation Line Officers have let themselves be – their biased was removed or enhanced, if you will. If they didn’t have any bias, they certainly did after awhile because of the university’s influence. And you had to battle that. And you had to battle it with the use of politicians. I’m not sure I answered your question. We had to fight against the ideals that the university popped out. Which we did. It was effective. I think we have a good mix right now. On the last round everybody lost something, but you have to understand the views of the local people that access it using machinery. One time they could go anywhere they wanted. BC: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  5   �GB: Then along came the Wilderness. Their area was cut by 274,000 acres. And then along come a Forest Plan; and other areas were closed down. Whether it was a wildlife closure – which nobody minded – or whether it was another user group that wanted another area closed. The same thing still applies. A non-motorized user can still go anywhere they want, but the motorized people were always the ones losing ground. And that’s tough for them to swallow. BC: How often do they do the Forest Plans? Is that a – GB: Congressional mandated every 10-15 years. There’s generally – takes five or six years to get a Forest Plan done. We’ll be looking at the same issues again here in another five or six years. BC: I imagine the population growth puts more pressure on them too. GB: Yeah, it does. We’re still behind up here on this ranger district. There are still programs that should be implemented that aren’t. And a lot of it is dictated by budgets and money. There should be a Park and Ski program. There should be non-motorized trailheads established, where you can buy a tag and go park there and you won’t have any opposition from other users that don’t buy a tag (other non-motorized users). I mean Idaho, Oregon, Colorado – they all have Park and Ski or Park and Access or whatever they call it – not in Utah. BC: Hmm. That would probably help – GB: Oh yeah. BC: -- (inaudible) GB: There you’ve got your own trailhead and nobody’s going to bother you. And somebody pulling a trailer that wants to park and camp for a couple of days during the winter and fish, or whatever, can’t park there without a sticker. You’ve got your exclusive -- . I’ve sent Idaho’s, Colorado’s, Oregon’s bills, amendments, rules, off to our state people time and again: “can’t we implement this?” BC: Does it have to be implemented at the state level? GB: Yeah. BC: What other kinds of programs do you think that we haven’t -- ? GB: That would probably be the most important as far as winter goes. Up here they pushed through the Shoshone Trail System, but it’s not taken off here (this is for summer OHV use). It’s not taken off here like it has in other parts of the state. In other parts of the state: the Piute, the (inaudible) and some of the other trail systems, have done so much to improve the economics of the regions they’re in – we don’t need it. Our little towns aren’t dependent on tourism. BC: Right. GB: We’re a university valley. And we have a lot of good light industry – who cares about a trail system? BC: Now are those trails you mentioned, are they a part of that Great Western Trail System? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  6   �GB: Yes. Well, that’s a little different. They’re not under the same organization. The Western Trail covers a lot of states. Each state has a section, but it’s its own organization. The Piute – the other trails are Utah trails and in cooperation with the Forest Service, BLM. A little different. The Great Western Trail is its own entity. CP: So when you promote motorized transportation to the federal government, to the Forest Service when you brought it – what is your and your organization’s stance about the benefits of motorized transportation to having more access to the forest property? GB: Well let’s not use the word transportation, let’s use the word access. CP: Okay. GB: Ever since the west was settled, man has used whatever the best means was to access it; whether it was a horseback or a boat or foot, or whatever – Model A’s and trucks and vehicles come along and give access to the backcountry. Why? Well, not everybody is young and healthy. My 82 year old father is not going to go up there and hike into the backcountry. I know some 85 year old people that do, but he’s not going to. Or how does a person take all their kids back? And you’re limited with how far you can go. Now you can drive up to Tony Grove and hike up and you know, take the kids and hike up for a day. Probably not going to venture very far into the wilderness. And because there’s more and more people all the time, and everybody wants to get back in further – the way to do it is motorized. Plus, everybody should have an opportunity – whether they’re non-motorized or motorized. There is your premise right there is something for everybody, responsibly. I don’t know if that answers it. CP: Yes, that definitely is good. So, you know on the flipside of that, do you see in validity in your opponents’ arguments that it should be limited? GB: Absolutely. Yeah, because I was a skier first before I become a snowmobiler and I don’t want to get into philosophical reasons, but a non-motorized user has a different value base for the area they are going to. And it may be the trip in is far more important than the destination. And they may develop a – whether you want to use the term – sense of place, more so than the snowmobiler. Yeah, he enjoys the ride probably as much as a skier enjoys a ski run, but is the reward at the end bigger or better? Probably not. But he probably enjoys it for a different reason. It’s not quite a religious thing – you can go under your own power and huck up a canyon and get to the top and jump and down like Rocky and say, “I made it!” You know, he might do the same thing on a hill with a machine, but – a little different. A little different. BC: I’m kind of curious because I don’t really know much about snow machines, but you mentioned that when you first got involved in the early ‘80s they were a little less dependable? GB: I used to like to leave the summit – where the Limber Pine Trail is right now – put my skis on and I would ski along the ridgeline and hunt snowshoe rabbits. And I’d to watch them stinking, smoking machines down there try to get where I was at. I always thought that it was interesting – why would you mess with this thing, it looks like you’re stuck half the time. You know, I couldn’t understand why they was doing what they was doing. But one day a couple of us decided – there were five of us – we was going to ski from the Sinks area to Hardware; that’s 35 miles. That’s a pretty good huck for people on their legs. It took us all day, into dark to do that on skis. And I can do it in 30 minutes on a snowmobile. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  7   �BC: Right. The machines have changed greatly from then, as far as where they can go? GB: Oh! Every year they change. I don’t know where they can’t go now. The limitation being whether it’s motorized or non-motorized. That’s the way they are. Technology has really improved them. BC: That probably then has created more clash, potentially, or not? GB: Probably not created more clash because skiers never got back there either. Mountaineering, backcountry skiing – as opposed to cross country or light touring – is fairly new. And it’s new to technology too: new types of materials, how the skis are made; the bindings, the boots. Backcountry skiers are relatively new too. And the funny thing about it all is that you’ve got machines that will get back in there in a hurry (as opposed to getting stuck on their way in like they used to); you’ve got guys who can use their new skis and get back in there. Now you’ve got a whole new segment, which we call them “snowmo-boarders” – they’re the guys with backcountry skis or snowboards that are using a snowmobile to get back in to make tracks where you can’t take a machine (or take you all day or two days to get on your skis). They are using the best of both worlds for their recreation. And so both the “purist” groups, if you will, are looking at them going, “Wait, wait a minute. We’ve got a new form of competition.” Just smarter. BC: Yeah. Poor man’s helicopter skiing. GB: You got it. CP: What areas in Logan Canyon right now are open for snowmobile access? Showing my ignorance here. GB: Well, I don’t remember the numbers without digging into my books. Of course the Wilderness area is closed. And you have closure up to Blind Hollow; you’ve got the Bunchgrass complex and the Steam Mill complex and Hell’s Kitchen complex that are closed to motorized – which encompasses over half of it. You have quite a bit that’s open, but it’s certainly not the same quality. The Tony Grove area and on into Idaho is as good of snowmobiling that you’ll find anywhere, maybe better than most nationwide. Same for skiing. You don’t find that type of backcountry access and availability anywhere else close by. So we’re kind of unique that we have one area up there that is el primo for both user groups. BC: So is the current plan overall working do you think? GB: It’s working. Yeah. Hopefully there’s no violation. I haven’t heard of any this year. And I think people are pretty much satisfied with what we’ve got, other than the extreme ends. BC: Right. Which is always the case. GB: It’s always the case, yeah. CP: So how do you feel the plan here compares to plans in other parts of this area? GB: Every other forest that had to go through revision watched this district and this region real close. They watched the fights; the lawsuits. And I think they took a lesson from them. And so most of them are formed the same way: a little bit for everybody. We set a poor example, but a good example. Our fights were long – I mean we went three years over what most Forest Plans take because of litigation and mediation and ultimately arbitration and more lawsuits. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  8   �BC: Have the groups learned from that? Do they work together better now? GB: It’s an uneasy truce. BC: Yeah. GB: We’re kind of like the Hamas and Israel. [Laughing] GB: Nobody wants to throw the first rock, and they’re going to get a little bit complacent about it. And maybe come the next time we need a Forest Plan there might be minor adjustments, but I think it’ll work. I hope so. It was a long fight. CP: Why do you think it was particularly contentious here? GB: We had a real good gene pool of advocates from the university, as opposed to a real good gene pool of advocates from the redneck community. In this valley the competitiveness among snowmobilers is extremely high. We’ve got more world champion hill climbers in this valley than anywhere else in the west or Canada. And same goes for the other race circuits in snowmobiling. Providence has probably produced more snowmobile competitors in all aspects than any other single town in the whole country. So a lot of fierce competitive people pitted against a university gene pool, or recreation pool. Good mix for a fight. [Laughing] CP: So has the fight ever gotten particularly nasty or do they keep it pretty civil? GB: You know, ironically nobody ever threw a punch until a skier lost it. It was a skier who threw the first punch a few years ago, where he dove on the back of a snowmobiler and pulled him off his sled and wanted to beat him up. CP: Just out on the trail? GB: Actually it was right on the road. The guy had drove his vehicle up there, parked it, let his dogs out. He was going to put his skis on and some snowmobilers using the same access into Tony Grove went by him. He didn’t like it. He thought the same ones were coming back and so he jumped on the first snowmobiler that come back and was going to beat him up. And of course the Forest Service happened to be coming along right then, they had to break it up. But it was just an emotional thing. Nobody got hurt. I had a rock thrown through my window after one public meeting; and a few death threats, but I didn’t take them serious. One of them, I wished I would have recorded it. He says, “You’re ruining Mother Nature. We’re going to get you; we’re watching you.” And I said, “You know, we ought to talk about this – get together some time and talk about it.” “Well, that won’t do any good, but we’re going to get you.” I said, “Hey, what’s your name so I can call you back and talk to you about it; I’m kinda busy right now?” “It’s uh – no wait! I can’t tell you that!” [Laughing] You know, how can you take something like that serious? You just can’t. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  9   �CP: So before we started the interview, we talked a little bit about your responsibilities with the Search and Rescue and things. Why don’t you just talk about that. What your role is and all that. GB: Oh, I’ve been in there 16 years. Maybe 15 years too long. I do search and rescue because I’m an adrenaline junkie. It’s not because I love humanity so much. [Laughing] We are highly trained professionals, unpaid. It costs us a lot of money, a lot of time. But there are few things more rewarding than saving somebody. I have friends that are big-game hunters; go all over the country hunting big game. I would rather go up and find a kid than hunt big game – and I enjoy hunting. But if I had to take a choice between going after some trophy and going after a lost skier, I would take the skier. I don’t know why – it’s really not good snowmobiling when you’re out searching in the winter. Because you are usually out at night and you’re going into places where people shouldn’t have gone anyway, but it’s enjoyable. CP: And so what area do you cover for that? GB: I do high angle water rescue – I’m not a diver. Of course winter, whether it’s on skis or snowmobile. Well, every aspect of it. CP: You do summer – like with ATVs and things too? GB: Year-round. Yeah. CP: And is it just for this area? GB: Just Cache County. CP: Cache County? GB: Yeah. I’m not an advocate of ATVs. I had ATVs -- I prefer my horse. If I have to take my Jeep into an area on a rescue, that’s what I do in the summer. If a horse is a more viable choice for a search, I’ll use a horse. If I have to get on an ATV or motorcycle I could do it; I’ve rode both of them for years. I’m just not a big advocate of them. But because I’m older than the young ones coming in now, I let them do a little more of the grunt work. I have to sit back a little bit. But because I’ve been in it so long, I act as an advisor and a safety officer. If avalanche conditions are such, I’m going to make a call or make my recommendations to the commander and the sergeant. But because of my knowledge of the backcountry up here I usually end up as a spotter in a helicopter or as a consultant when we’re going over the maps. There’s few places I haven’t been up here. BC: How is the organization structured? GB: We have two teams, two team leaders and a commander. We are under the direct supervision and part of the Sheriff’s office. We have a sergeant who is our liaison as well as our commander. He works very closely with the unit commander, hand-in-hand. On every situation they’re at base camp making calls. I’ve been a commander, I’ve been a captain, I’ve been the state commander (I just got out of that job, thank heavens) – state Search and Rescue commander. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  10   �But we break down into teams – whether it’s a snowmobile team or a high-angle teams, or water rescue – we have some guys that are better at running the boats than other guys – they’ll be team leaders. We have a dive team; we have guys that go into caves – this country is full of caves – and so we’ll have guys that are specialized for that. But we only have 35 members. So we all crosstrain and it makes a tighter-knit group. If I’m not a lead on, say a high-angle team, I’m ground support. And I don’t dive, but I’m ground support for the dive people. So it works good. CP: I just kind of wanted to go back. I felt like there was one thing that we didn’t cover very well about your background a little bit. What is your training, your profession? What did you start doing when you started in the work world? GB: When I wasn’t hunting and fishing, I of course graduated high school. I graduated from USU. I had a composite major/minor in Advertising Design and Illustration, Photography and Drawing. And after I graduated I went out and freelanced for awhile until my wife wanted more stable paycheck. And so I went to work for Thiokol in their Art Department, I did all of their corporate advertising. But I found out that my painting, my western painting, was a whole lot more fun to do, so my father says, “come and help me build a building” (he had an old gas station here) “help me build a building and we’ll see to it that you’ve got time to paint.” Which I couldn’t paint here. I mean I did for awhile (this was through the ‘80s). Business kind of sucked you up, and of course all the involvement with all the other issues, there wasn’t a lot of time to paint. I’ve always enjoyed writing and communications because I had to work with account reps, and writers. And I write a column for the newspaper right now, every two weeks, as a conservative voice of the valley. And I feel myself going green sometimes. I work as a government liaison for an energy development company – Vince’s company. I go down and I’m usually the first contact with local governments and go meet the people and the ranchers and the farmers. I worked real close with SITLA over the years, whether it’s on forest issues or other issues. BC: And SITLA is? GB: School Institutional Trust Land Administration. They are the ones that give money to the school kids, but it’s Trust Land Administration. BC: Right. GB: They own about, or are the care-takers of 3.5 million acres in the state of Utah. But for the 12 recipients, which are the universities and the school kids in the state, they’re an important entity. But I work real well with them all. I don’t know why, but I get along real well with local people. Now Vince (inaudible) Texas, Montana, New Mexico, which is fine. We’re all the same people. But I get along well with them. CP: You got anything? BC: I’m good, fine. Do you have anything else you’d like to add? GB: Nope. This is a great place to live. We’ve got interesting times that we’re in the middle of right now. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but it’s sure going to be a ride! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  11   �The economics and a new president. I didn’t vote for him, but I support him. Hopefully he can do the job. BC: Yeah. GB: But you have to sit back and be pragmatic. Whether it’s a forced issue or an energy project – keep the humor. I learned a real hard lesson six years ago. You can make all the plans in the world and formulate your future, have your agenda written in stone, and it can all change. My wife passed away, I have a different outlook on everything, and I really don’t mind where I’m at now. But I do look at things a little differently. BC: One other question I might have is, would there be any folks that you would recommend that we might want to interview on this project? GB: I would go talk to Val Simmons. He’s been – or John Borg – they’ve been real advocates of multiple access on the Logan Canyon. And they have some really good views. John is a walking computer. He knows every rule, every aspect of the Forest Plan; he’s a great asset, great person to have around. Val is very vocal and he knows what the people want. And between the three of us, we did our job. I’d talk to those two. CP: Alright. Well we appreciate it. BC: Yup, thanks. GB: If you come with a question … [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Garth  Barker     Page  12   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/96">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/96</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Garth Barker interview, 4 February 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Garth Barker discusses multiple-use access for the Logan Canyon meeting with politicians at Multiple Access Conservation Coalition member about land access concerns experience as a member of Search and Rescue. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Barker, Garth, 1949- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Pumphrey, Clinton R., 1984- Subject The topic of the resource Barker, Garth, 1949---Interviews Barker, Garth, 1949---Childhood and youth Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon Snowmobiling--Utah--Logan Canyon Politicians--Utah Multiple Access Conservation Coalition (Utah) Land use--Law and legislation--Utah--Logan Canyon Forestry and community--Utah--Cache County Off-road vehicle trails--Utah--Logan Canyon Volunteer workers in search and rescue operations--Utah--Cache County Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Green Canyon (Utah) North Logan (Utah) Providence Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 2 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd2GarthBarker Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 4 February 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-02-04 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/87f27be5fc4b44715c9e736513b021d3.mp3 4afbeb1cc783da65344622f31dc0babe https://highway89.org/files/original/45987ab74b11c9efbdb8c823a81f8a0c.pdf 52c21a00eb8658d9b61ec2b9c93e8162 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Katherine Gilbert Place of Interview: 1636 Sunset Drive Logan, UT Date of Interview: 8 April 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Kathy Gilbert [who made some additions] and Barbara Middleton; Randy Williams (29 June 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Katherine Gilbert briefly talks about her childhood in Canada and fond memories of outdoor experiences in her youth. She discusses her college education and subsequent jobs and training, and then speaks about influences as an adult which inspired her to be proactive toward protecting the natural beauties surrounding her residence. She discusses the formation of the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon [CPLC] and her role within the organization. She talks about the CPLC’s part in the planning of improvements and expansion of the highway and bridges in Logan Canyon. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) KG = Katherine Gilbert NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BM: This is Barbara Middleton and this is tape one, side one on Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Project. We’re here with Katherine Gilbert at 1636 Sunset Drive in Logan, Utah. And it is Tuesday April 8, 2008. Katherine, would you introduce yourself? KG: Yes. It’s a pleasure to do this Barbara. I’m going to use the cheat sheet here and look at the questions. Did you want to ask me the questions first, or did you want me to just refer to them? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  1   �BM: Go ahead and just refer to them, that’s fine. KG: Okay. [Reading question to self] What is your background and please describe your schooling, training in your field? Well I have a had a love affair with Utah since 1976 when my husband and I and two children returned to Logan after my husband having had the opportunity to spend a year and a half here as a post-doc. When we came here he was in the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife in the College of Natural Resources and I was a mom at home. And of course we just absolutely adored having Logan Canyon at our back door, and we partook of many activities in the canyon; whether it was hiking in the fall or in the spring or skiing at Beaver Mountain in the winter, and ultimately cross-country skiing. My background is that I had an undergraduate degree in the hard sciences from Queens University. And by hard science I meant it was mainly chemistry with a little bit of biology. After that training I worked in medical centers; first of all in Montreal – Montreal was where I was born (Quebec, Canada), and for five years at Duke University in an immunology research lab where they were doing some of the first kidney transplants. After I came to Utah and my children were in school I got a master’s degree in School Psychology. I worked for Cache County school district for approximately 20 years after getting my masters degree in school psychology. I just recently retired in June of 2006. [Stop recording] BM: Alright, we’re back on. KG: Okay so Barbara has asked me to say when I was born. It was 1942 in Montreal. I grew up there. And I think that my love of the out of doors was inspired by my wonderful summers in the Laurentian Mountains and at a wonderful lake where we swam and boated and hiked and just literally spent every day outside. The next part she’s asked me to add to was when I got my undergraduate degree, which was in 1963 at Queens University, Kingston, Ontario. And after that I returned to Montreal for a couple of years where I worked at Primary Children’s Hospital in a blood lab, basically just doing standard analysis for medical purposes, which at that time was not automated but was starting to be automated. I came to the United States in 1965 and lived in North Carolina for five years, where my husband was doing a PhD graduate degree. At that time, that’s when I worked in the immunology lab at Duke University Medical Center which was really a booming, growing university with a lot of funding from NIH [National Institutes of Health]. So that was an exciting field to be in. We were looking at the basic immunology of transplants – looking at what caused the tissue to be rejected. We were working with mice strains. I Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  2   �worked for five years in the immunology lab and taught school for one year at Durham Academy, a private school. Have I answered enough of those questions? BM: That’s fine. KG: [Reading question to self] So who were some of the most influential teachers in instructing you in your field and why were they so influential? I can’t say that for this work that I became involved with in Logan Canyon it was teachers, per se, but it was the outdoor experiences growing up – which was in the ‘50s which had to be ideal because one was able to escape to the country and live the simple life relatively easily. And so I had wonderful summers in the Laurentian Mountains. And also being at Queens University which is on the Saint Lawrence River right where Lake Ontario starts; and that was a lovely natural area to be able to look at every day of your life because the university was on the lake. BM: Kathy, a little bit on the Laurentian Mountains – do you think you could tell us where they are like points in between if you wanted to locate those on the map? KG: Yes. We were about 45 miles north of Montreal. You would head up into these rolling hills – they’re much like the Adirondacks, they’re old, old mountains. And they’re developed in the winter for skiing. The towns that I would have been near, close to where our lake was, were Saint Sauveur (and those are paintings of Saint Sauveur on the wall there; old with the horse drawn buggies and 20 years later). BM: We’re looking at two pictures, great winter scenes, are those oils? KG: Yes. And they’re done by a very well-known Canadian artist. I’ve carried those around with me over the years to remind me of Saint Sauveur. BM: Wonderful. Is that somebody skating? KG: It’s just a kid in a toque on the street. BM: In a toque? KG: The red toque. [Knitted hat: beanie.] Houses were very brilliantly colored, painted – it’s French Canadian. Then from Saint Sauveur the next town was Morin Heights and that was actually an English enclave in the Laurentians, and it still is to this day. And then Sixteen Island Lake (which literally had 16 islands) was a beautiful lake; pristine, clear – it had no road down it so when we went down the lake to see our friends or go to the clubhouse, one would go on a boat (which for us was a flat-bottom rowboat with seven horsepower Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  3   �motor on it). We went there every summer. It’s called “Lac des Seize Iles” in French and there are some people who have lived on the lake for generations. It was a physical landscape that you learn as a child and those memories stay with you the rest of your life. BM: Were there other siblings then that were with you, brothers and sisters? KG: Yes, I was the oldest of three so we all went as a family. So that would have been the influence for my enchantment with the West, to come west and to see all these beautiful open lands and running streams and the opportunity to live at the mouth of Logan Canyon. I think when you’ve grown up in a more developed area the opportunity to live in a more natural area is very attractive. Okay, the next question about [reading question to self] What were your family’s land use traditions? Were there special celebrations during the year that you remember and want to share? As far as Logan Canyon goes we certainly enjoyed it for hikes and walks and retreats on the weekend, especially going skiing. It gave the children an excellent opportunity to learn downhill skiing, which I think is a great sport at certain times in your life and a way to meet people and be active. I think people who like the winter find a way to spend time outside. BM: Is that Beaver Mountain then? KG: Yes, we went to Beaver Mountain. BM: What are other places then in the canyon that the kids really enjoyed that you went to specifically. KG: I think as far as going as a family, we just did hiking – short hikes, maybe up to the Wind Caves and that sort of thing. And then I think when the kids were in high school they went on their own – like they could drive up. And I’m sure they had picnics. They didn’t use the canyon a lot. We tended to leave Logan in the summer, so our recreation was back East with our family on the Saint Lawrence River. My hobbies and recreational pursuits are again just outdoor activities. I enjoy getting out. And certainly as I gave up the downhill skiing I really enjoyed going to places like Temple Fork and some of the cross-country ski trails around Beaver, before they came inundated with snowmobilers. Wood Camp Hollow BM: Saint Anne’s? KG: Yes, but what’s the marker on the road? [Stop and start recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  4   �KG: Right Hand Fork was another favorite place, mainly because it was close. (So have we finished, I think I finished that page, yes.) [Reading question to self] To connections to Logan Canyon, what was your earliest memory of Logan Canyon? Well my earliest memory was the early ‘70s, probably 1970 when we actually came to Logan, my husband had a post-doc here and we actually camped in Logan Canyon near the Zanavoo Lodge. There is a name for that campground, but we camped there and looked for a place to live. It’s quite dramatic driving down Logan Canyon for the first time. [Stop and start recording] So it was Bridger Campground. And then of course living near the university and living at the mouth of the canyon, you know, we went up to the lower part quite frequently just for day walks or short walks. BM: And how long did you live there? KG: Live where? BM: At the campground? KG: Oh, we just stayed there a week or something. Yes, we just stayed there a week and looked for housing. BM: Okay. KG: I think it was a week. I wasn’t too impressed camping with a new baby. [Laughing] BM: How old? KG: Oh about four months, I don’t know – I don’t remember. I’m trying to think when we came. It was the end of summer I think. BM: So it was fairly dry. KG: Yes, it was dry. It was cold at night. And we were in a Volkswagen Bug with a roof rack on and, anyway. BM: That’s great! [Laughing] KG: [Reading question to self] So in what areas of Logan Canyon were you most active? Special places? What is your favorite place in the canyon? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  5   �I was most active in Temple Fork, Tony Grove, Right Hand Fork, loved the Summit for skiing in the winter – the Sinks before all the snowmobilers went up there; Beaver Mountain for skiing. BM: I can’t imagine how that area, especially, Beaver Mountain area and that Sinks area has changed. KG: Oh, it’s just remarkably changed; and we can thank Doug Thompson, our Logan mayor, for that who advertised nationally for snowmobiling in that area. And that will be another topic, I think in your interview about the canyon and the policy and the motorized traffic transport; the amount of canyon areas dedicated to that. But that, I think, is probably treated better in the comment about the Forest Service management about the canyon. BM: Can I just ask you one question? KG: Sure. BM: Getting up there, the road has changed, but time wise how long did it take you to drive up to a place like Beaver to go with your kids; and the road conditions at that time --? KG: Were excellent. It was well plowed. We would allow 45 minutes – of course in the spring when the road is bare and dry you could maybe come home faster. When we started using Logan Canyon it had the upgrade of the lower ten miles or whatever it is. When you start at Logan and go up the canyon – that had always been finished when we used it. That was in the ‘60s I think, late ‘60s that they did that. BM: Did the canyon ever close because of bad weather? Was that a fairly frequent-? KG: No. Never. Never that I remember. Let’s see now. What are some of the major influences, obvious needs that helped you make the choice to pursue this connection with Logan Canyon? We obviously used it and got to know it. A turning point for me was coming back from a sabbatical in Australia and we had had a wonderful opportunity to spend a lot of time on the east coast and get out to the Great Barrier Reef. A few people and the beautiful areas in Australia and it was brought home rather quickly that the people that are living in the area are the people that are going to protect it. So part of this project is to document the second upgrading of the road – the higher part of the canyon. And I returned to Logan just at this time when they were making the proposals for what road modifications they were going to make to handle the traffic better. BM: So what year are we talking about? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  6   �KG: Well I think we’re talking about 1995, but you would want – it could be ’94, it could have been started. I’ve had a hard time remembering – there was a lot of talk about this road and what was going to be modified and I don’t know that, again this is the place to talk about that. If you want to get through this questionnaire and then sort of chunk the road development, the influence that the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon had on how that road was so-called “improved” and then about the land management uses -because that all kind of goes together in a bundle. BM: Would the sabbatical year would have been ’94-’95? KG: Yes. BM: Okay, okay. KG: Yes. And I can certainly confirm that. Unfortunately I’ve packed a lot of that information, like pictures from my trip and stuff. I could be off by a year or two. I’m sure that this will come together when you start looking at other people’s data, so I wouldn’t be the only source of information on that. BM: Right. So part of what you’re saying here is that this sabbatical influence was being able to be in a place like eastern Australia and then coming back and being confronted with seeing what changes were about to happen? KG: Yes. Plus it was pretty arbitrary what was going to happen. People wanted to get up to Bear Lake faster – it was hard to trail a boat in the narrow canyon. People in Garden City wanted to get to the hospital faster. So there was quite a push to upgrade the transportation corridor. The tractor transports wanted a shorter route to I-80 and using Logan Canyon accomplishes that. The truckers wanted a safer canyon. These were all rationales for making a wider, straighter highway. But maybe keeping the trucks out of the canyon would make it safer! At the beginning, we weren’t aware of the truck lobby for an upgrade of the canyon to make it safer. However, we won’t digress on that one at this point. [Reading question to self] What are some of the major influences, oh yes, that helped you make the choice. It was the contrast, it was the beauty and the uniqueness of the Great Barrier Reef and it makes you frame again what is unique in your area. And there is no question that Logan Canyon is unique. It is a Scenic Byway; it has not been developed, like many of the canyons in the intermountain west where you have little enclaves of private holdings (so you get little stores and gas stations and conglomeration of cottages or whatever). Logan Canyon is scenic and continues to be scenic. [Reading question to self] Land use changes in Logan Canyon. How have you contributed to Land Use Changes in Logan Canyon? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  7   �Well, basically I haven’t. That is an issue with how you get the Forest Service to look after land use. And we have tried for 15 years to change it and we still have the same status quo. Again, I’d rather talk about that when we talk about the forest plans and of course it was the Wasatch-Cache Forest when I was working on it but now it’s the Wasatch-Cache-Uinta Forest. [Reading question to self] So what is your overall impression how land use policies are determined in Logan Canyon? In the Wasatch-Cache-Uinta National Forest? [Stop and start recording] KG: Okay, are we on here? BM: We are on. KG: Okay. Barbara has asked me to talk a little bit more about the influence in my personal life of what prompted me to become impassioned about Logan Canyon and preserving its natural beauty and integrity and treating it with respect as we would like to see future generations enjoy it as much as we have. I mentioned earlier in the tape that it was coming back from Australia and seeing the beautiful landscapes there, particularly the Great Barrier Reef and how unique it was and how fragile it was, and getting the concept that really even though I love the Great Barrier Reef it’s the people that live there who need to protect it and look after it and be aware of what’s going on. And I was in the Great Barrier Reef in the mid-90s so we weren’t talking about global warming and all the things that are happening to the reefs very quickly around the world. But long before I got involved with Logan Canyon there were a group of people at Utah State who were very concerned about the impact of a road and the impact on the natural beauty of it – back in the ‘60s. (And just as a side, as we started to work on the road and whether it needed to be straightened or bridges needed to be widened, Paul Packer who worked for the Forest Service for years, when he made a comment about the road once. He said, “Those original road builders for Logan Canyon in the ‘30s did a marvelous job of following the natural contours and it is a scenic byway and it should stay that way because you can’t widen it in the narrow parts without destroying it.” So to give Barbara a list of the people who I know worked on the early issues in Logan Canyon were: Tom Lyon (he was in the English Department and he did a lot of nature writing); Bill Helm (was a Fishery Biologist); Jack Spence (was a Chemistry professor); Ron Goede and John Neuhold (Ron is a Fisheries Biologist and so is John. John worked at the university, Ron worked for the state). But when I became involved with Logan Canyon and the issue of the new road, it was Bruce Pendrey and Steve Flint who had carried on the task of monitoring developments in Logan Canyon. Before CPLC formed officially, in other words became incorporated as a non-profit, these two guys who were in the Range Science Department at USU, were writing to or communicating with UDOT Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  8   �(Utah Department of Transportation) and the Forest Service and keeping an eye on what was going on and trying to alert the public about the issues of Logan Canyon and improvement on the road. And before I say anything more about the issues that CPLC worked on, the lower part of the canyon (and I believe it’s the lower seven to 10 miles) was improved in the ‘60s. And it was a Fishery Biologist like Bill Helm who was just dumbfounded what they did to the river because if you want to have a good trout stream you need pools of slow water and you don’t want to force the river in to a narrow channel. When you widen the road you make the river faster and straighter. I remember at one of the public meetings a presenter showing us a picture of the lower canyon before it was widened. And he made the comment, “You think Logan Canyon is beautiful now, you should have seen it before they widened it.” Literally the trees arched right over the whole road. It was literally like driving into the woods, this picture, from the lower – right after you cross the bridge where you enter the canyon. Right there at, is it First Dam? BM: Boy. KG: So, there’s no question that they did some major road revision and I’m not an expert to know specifically what was done but I’m sure it’s there if you want to interview these other people. So the reason that the public – and I say the public – because we were able to fill places like the Logan Middle School auditorium, we were able to fill it with people when UDOT scheduled public meetings to tell us what they were going to do with this road; how they were going to improve it. And you have to remember that it was the consulting companies like C2HMHill [from their website: 6/30/2011: As a global leader in consulting, design, design-build, operations, and program management, CH2M HILL has the human and technical resources, the international footprint, and the depth of knowhow and experience to help clients achieve success in any corner of the world.], who are huge national consulting company, who made very, very thick books on what they were going to do. It was really something to try and convince them they that needed to be more sensitive to the canyon. [Stop and start recording] BM: We’re on again. KG: So I should just add that when they first did the improvement in Logan Canyon there was no NEPA process (which means National Environmental Planning Act) which was passed in the early ‘70s. And that’s something that I won’t go into now. But now when you have national lands, public lands, you have to follow that process. So I would like to start how the citizens in Logan and surrounding areas became more specifically involved with the second project that UDOT was going to do in Logan Canyon. The bridges needed to be replaced and the approaches to the bridges needed to be replaced. So there was a process for that that was a pretty big learning curve for all of us. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  9   �And I’ll stop at that place and let you turn the tape? Or do you want to -- ? BM: That’s good. [Stop and start recording] [Tape 1 of 1: B] BM: We’re starting Tape 1, Side 2 with Kathy Gilbert. Kathy, go ahead. KG: It soon became evident to the people that had been monitoring the proposals for road improvements that it was actually going to happen. And so there was a small group of people, again, that decided that they would try to do something, to find out more about the process. Bruce and Steve no longer had the time; so six of us joined together to take a look at so-called road improvements. And we met regularly and we looked at what we had to do. And I personally remember saying, “Well I will go to the Forest Service and see how they’re going to monitor, how they’re going to look after the forest when the Department of Transportation decides to build a highway through it.” And I didn’t even know there were things like a forest plan. But what I quickly learned was that the Forest Service was just going to stand by and let UDOT or C2HMHill tell them the kind of road to build. The Forest Service might monitor a stream here and there, but that was it. For this road upgrade the NEPA process was in effect. This meant public meetings and an opportunity to comment on plans. The proponents of roads are very good at drawing up these plans and it is difficult for individuals to challenge the system. The proponent usually gets what they want and it was obvious that the Forest Service was not going to be proactive in protecting the forest or the river. Once the Record of Decision (ROD) was issued by the State of Utah, we had a number of challenges. We challenged the amount of road widening needed for the bridges, especially in the lower canyon, how the bridges would be built and how they would take out the old bridge so impact to the river would be minimal. We wanted building materials that integrated with the natural landscape. But to give you an overview, a group of us formed the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon (CPLC). We incorporated as a non-profit, so we had our bylaws and we had our mode of operation (with the president, and a secretary and a treasurer). We took that Record of Decision, and I have to say that Sean Swaner who was a student at USU in biology lead the charge. He was brilliant and a quick study on many issues. He had great people skills and did an incredible amount of work talking to the engineers about the actual design of the road and why we should have a shorter wide approach to the bridge. CPLC recruited lots of members and got members out to public hearings. Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) was willing to listen to the public. They had had a major fiasco with widening Provo Canyon and they wanted to do better. Over a period of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  10   �about a year we got many changes that reduced the impact of the road and protected the canyon and the river. We did need a safer road; we did need the bridges replaced. And I think it was one of these situations where, no, we didn’t get everything but we got a lot of accommodations that preserved the canyon. And that was good. BM: In terms of feeling positive that UDOT really did make an effort to listen and incorporate some of these – KG: Yes, they did. I mean I’m not saying that they just did it willingly from the beginning. We had a lot of correspondence and had to hire a lawyer to press our case. It was a huge effort on our part. We tried to get the Forest Service involved so that they would stand up for what needed to be done for preservation. We didn’t want a big wide road and I think if you drive it now you’ll see that there isn’t one. I mean there are some wider lanes up by Red Banks campground that we didn’t think were needed, but that is not significant compared to the overall changes. [KG wrote: BM your question is missing here. This following paragraph is about the visitor center that Logan Canyon Coalition worked on to reduce its impact.] Certainly this is a project that took place much later, it’s just recently been finished, is the new Visitors’ Center at the summit. CPLC only negotiated for the road. We didn’t get everything, but there were some people in the group who felt like we should get more and they broke off and formed Logan Canyon Coalition. And the persons that were most involved with that initially were Gordon Steinhoff and Kevin Kobe, and they would certainly be people worth interviewing for that because I didn’t keep up with it at that point. I felt like we’d gotten the best we could and the construction was starting. And that was it, it was finished; it was a done deal. Once the road construction started I took a rest from it. There were volunteers involved in monitoring during the construction but basically CPLC took a rest. Some of us felt that the road was no longer an issue and that it was land management practices that would have a bigger long term effect on the canyon. This is the domain of the Forest Service. So I think I’m going to defer to Barbara here and see if she has any questions; more about the formation of CPLC, and what we did or didn’t do. BM: What year was that when you split? KG: I can’t remember the year we split. The year we incorporated was 1995. And that went on until – as far as the road issue and the bridges and the building of the road – that went on to 2000. We did not get involved in anything from the summit down to Garden City. We felt if they wanted a straight-away, they could have it. It was really the river and the protection of the canyon – the narrow part of the canyon – that we were interested in. BM: So the summit, exactly, what would be a great reference point for people who are in that canyon? Limber Pine trail? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  11   �KG: Yes. BM: Okay. KG: You’re just at the very top and you’re almost looking down on Bear Lake, really, or the new rest stop. BM: You mentioned that in the CPLC you also had students and landscape architecture involved. Because we’re at the university, would you just mention some of those other departments besides Landscape Architecture and Natural Resources? KG: They weren’t any departments involved. It was people like, for instance, Mike Timmons in the Landscape Architecture department and he had been involved with some of those early people with the first road upgrade in the 60’s. He said when he first moved to Logan that was one of the first things he heard about – is this road that they were going to build. This road was always going to happen. The second part of this project was always in the distant future. We knew it was coming and UDOT has its budgets and it replaces bridges and it widens roads as the budgets come up and they’re available. So I think people were stunned at what they did in the lower part of the canyon. I wasn’t because I never saw it before. So that’s just – we were primed! [Laughing] BM: Well and also with that UDOT back run you mentioned with Provo Canyon being – did you say a “failure” or --- KG: Well, I don’t know that it was a failure. It was very expensive for them and they did try to make it into four lanes – and I guess it is four lanes. But it was another very scenic canyon that was a massive construction project. I can’t comment on it, I just know that there were slides and they were over-budget and that sort of thing. So I’m sure it was distressing to all the people involved. BM: In those kinds of influences have got to be part of the history of why things happen at different times – KG: Right. BM: Such as, you know, UDOT maybe listening a little bit better. KG: Right. Right. I know. And again, I did not do that negotiating part. Sean did; he was incredible. BM: Do you think there were other influences in the Cache Valley community during this mid-90s to early 2000 era that were influential besides just land use management? Are there other – can you reflect on any other kind of history or movements that are going on? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  12   �KG: Well, Bridgerland Audubon Society was the people that were the umbrella group for CPLC and the road. They were supportive of us – in other words, I think it’s really important when you’re doing this grassroots work that you have a group that you can connect to. Bridgerland is another 5013C – or a non-profit. They had people, they had the contacts, they had a newsletter that went out once a month. So they were certainly an umbrella group for people who were interested in becoming more active in how the road – you know, the impact of the road. BM: Were there other issues at the time that they were involved with? I know wetlands, right now is a very big issue, and protecting Cutler, and that….. KG: Right. I can’t speak to that because I was not a member of Audubon. I certainly knew of it and had friends who were in Audubon but I wasn’t involved with Audubon, so I couldn’t tell you. BM: Okay. [Stop and start recording] BM: What are the aspects of this projects with policy and with involvement – which I phrase as “participatory democracy” – and is important for all levels of our population to hear is the challenge of involvement and also the joys of being involved with that. And I wonder if you could reflect a little on that, on your role? KG: Well I like the idea of the joys of it because I certainly met a tremendous diversity of people and it was really fun to work with them and to see their passion. And so when you get involved with something like CPLC or protecting Logan Canyon, it is very reinforcing to work with others who have the same passion. And I think if you asked all those people to show their favorite family pictures – we all have pictures standing at Wind Caves on a beautiful fall afternoon, or standing by the river – and the idea that it could be lost is really quite a tragic thought to people. So that is where the initial motivation comes from: to want to protect something that’s in your backyard, that’s in your everyday experience that adds pleasure to your life. And then when you start to work at it and you see the mammoth institutions that you are up against, such as the highway department (“we build roads, we fix bridges we do it the way the engineers tell us to do it”); or the Forest Service (“Traditionally we’ve run cattle on these lands; they’re degraded, we know they’re degraded; we have experts on plant ecology and streams and fish but right now, politically we can’t do anything.”). So that can be a huge stumbling block that you feel you’re up against these institutions or these have agencies that lots of money and power. But at the end of the day, for me as I started to work on it – first of all it was an education process – learning about streams, fish, plants, cattle, whatever; even meeting ranchers that I never would have had the opportunity to meet – is that I was going to try to influence activities (whether it’s road building, cattle running, forest management) Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  13   �because at the end of the day if it wasn’t fixed or it was done, it wouldn’t be for lack of trying. That’s a very roundabout way of saying at the end of the day I gave it a fair shot. And I had lots of people to help. Lots of professionals who were also passionate about it – maybe didn’t have the time, but certainly gave of their professional knowledge. And you work at these things as long as you can work at them and do it at a level that is satisfying to you. And I felt like I had to learn quite a bit before I could write letters to the Forest Service or to UDOT or to whomever I was communicating with. But at the end of the day you just have to say your part. And that’s where it’s at. BM: And you felt like you had a tremendous team working with you at that time? KG: Well yes, everybody had great ideas. Yes, there were a lot of people and they’re out there. They’re out there for everything if you’re willing to seek them out. There are currently people in the valley, like the Bear River Watershed Council, who have continued on. I’m not up on what Audubon is doing these days, but I haven’t been living here so. [Stop and start recording] BM: Kathy, do you have a particular story that you would like to share from your work here in Cache Valley, in Logan Canyon, a particular one that comes to mind? In terms of walking the landscape with some of your colleagues on this, a particular place? KG: Well we did a lot of work up Spawn Creek and I have that documented in a book, where we were looking at the impact of cattle on the land and measuring sediment in the stream. And the Forest Service has had that as sort of their exemplary place. Again, I’m not up to speed on what’s happening right now. But it was fun to go up with John Carter and my husband Barrie, and the few people that came to do those treks – to just walk the stream and see it at different times of year. But I don’t really have any specific story in the canyon, except to be astounded to some of the ugly places due to what the cattle of done. And I mean it’s documented in pictures. I mean it’s just trashed, like beaver dams that are just – well you wouldn’t want to even eat your lunch there. BM: And overgrazing? KG: Yes, well it’s just abuse of the land. It’s just not good management. And I think it’s very sad. BM: What about books or writings that have influenced you? KG: Yes. I mentioned earlier today – Debra Donahue, Revisiting Western Lands [The Western Range Revisited: Removing Livestock from Public Lands to Conserve Native Biodiversity (1999)]; Wallace Stegner who writes eloquently about issues in the western landscape. I frankly can’t remember the names and the titles, but I did read books that Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  14   �were recommended by friends and colleagues. And I certainly will get the names of those to you. BM: And why the Donahue book -- Revisiting Western Lands? KG: Well she had such an experience – both from the legal perspective, she’s in the law school in Wyoming. The head of the State Senate tried to get her fired when she came out with her book. You’d have to read Andy Kerr’s review on that website. It’s been a while since I’ve read it; it’s just that she had a great combination of knowledge about the landscape and then the legal part of it. So it was very brave of her to write that book and it was very informative for those who are trying to get the federal agencies to do their job. BM: And that was published about when? KG: I don’t know. I think mid-90s; I can’t tell you. I don’t have the book right now to lay my hands on it. BM: Okay, I can look that up; and then Stegner also? KG: Yes, Wallace Stegner. BM: Um-hmm. KG: He actually came to Utah State in the ‘70s to give seminars to the English Department, if you can believe it! How did I get involved with him? I don’t know, I just like his writings. He did a lot of nature writing – I can’t tell you. I read his biography. He’s eloquent. BM: Was he here with the Western Writers Project with Tom Lyon? KG: I think so. I don’t know. I wasn’t here – I didn’t come until ’76 to Logan. And my understanding he was really here the early ‘70s, but he gave workshops regularly. All his papers are in University of Utah. BM: That must have incredible to see him. KG: Yes, it would be. BM: And hear him. KG: Um-hmm, um-hmm. BM: Okay. Anything else you’d like to add for today’s tape? We’re going to continue at a later date, looking at some of the specific letters and some of the other work that you’ve done with the CPLC. But anything else for today that you’d like to add to culminate our visit? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  15   �KG: I don’t think so; I think that’s just about it. BM: Well thank you very much for today’s interview. KG: You’re welcome! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  8  April  2008     Page  16   � https://highway89.org/files/original/c94ac092808436836b10ec4a9d32eba5.mp3 de4ab70137316b8395c4a8d8076edb31 https://highway89.org/files/original/f63c793673e7543a4a93195ce22988f9.pdf e69442e9721f537a78e61e144ac97ed0 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Katherine Gilbert Place of Interview: Katherine Gilbert’s home in Logan, UT Date of Interview: 29 April 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Radio Shack Cassette Tape Recorder: CTR-122 Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Katherine Gilbert [who added some information] and Barbara Middleton; Randy Williams (30 June 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Kathy speaks about the direction the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon [CPLC] took after the completion of the Logan Highway project; getting involved in land use management issues. She also discusses the differences between the CPLC and the Logan Canyon Coalition [LCC]. She ends the interview with some memories of growing up in Montreal and skiing in the Laurentian Mountains. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) KG = Katherine Gilbert NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 1: A] BM: We’re here with Kathy Gilbert on Tuesday, April 29, 2008. We’re in her home on Sunset Drive in Logan. And we are here to continue with our discussion with Logan Canyon and the oral histories and some of the activities that Kathy was involved with through the CPLC and some of the other organizations. Okay Kathy. Kathy’s got a map in front of her and is going to talk a little bit about the location of some of the areas – a Logan Canyon map. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  1   �[Speaking directly to Kathy] Why don’t you point out some of the areas that you were involved with. Bear Hodges, or --? KG: Well, first of all I’ll just go over our mission statement for the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon [CPLC] It was to “protect the natural beauty and overall integrity of the canyon.” Now that the road was “fait accompli” in the sense that we’d had our input with the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT), with road and bridge modifications and it had been built according to the guidelines in the Record of Decision we turned our attention to other issues. The road building took about 5 years beginning to end (19952000). And as we educated ourselves about the issues in Logan Canyon it was no longer the road having a huge impact, but how the lands were managed. And so the Forest Service was redoing the Forest Plan and there were issues that they had to address. And there were procedures, policies that they had to follow. And at the same time that they were redoing the Forest Plan, there was a mandate, I believe, at the federal level that the Forest Service had to do an Environmental Impact Statement (commonly known as an EIS) for every cattle allotment. And of course the Forest Service didn’t have the manpower to do this. And we felt that the first allotment that needed to be looked at (and we needed to look over the shoulder of the Forest Service) was the North Rich cattle allotment because it is one of the largest. It is 27,000 acres along the ridge of the Bear River Range and goes into the sinks of Cache and Rich Counties. And I have a letter here to our membership, dated April 24, 2000, which does a nice job of summarizing what the allotment was – still is – what action was being taken at that time by the U.S. Forest Service, and why this particular allotment was important. And it was important because it had a diversity of species and parts of it had been very much abused by land uses. So that was the beginning of our switch from the road to the land management issues. BM: So basically what you’re saying is that in order to protect the canyon and the kinds of values and aesthetics and conservation concerns with wildlife and water -- the group really formed with the road issue, but with the road issue moving into other areas, it was now becoming the adjacent land management and all that involved. So this was your first --. KG: Right. Yes, and the big impetus of course the Audubon people and there was quite a broad base in Cache Valley – was the increase in motorized traffic (both snowmobiling in the winter and all terrain vehicles in the summer). And they were making many, many inroads – non-legal roads, paths – that they traveled along (this was the summer traffic). And then of course with the winter traffic and these high-powered snowmobiles they were able to go up very steep slopes and that has an impact for the wildlife. In other words, when the snowmobiles pack down the surface of the high terrain, predators such as coyotes start to compete with the lynx. The lynx can travel in deep snow and so its food base is depleted if coyotes get access because of snowmobiles. And then there was also the issue of the Nordic skiers and their yurt in the high country. The skiers would tromp in, taking all day to get there, to stay in the yurt and the snowmobilers would have Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  2   �come in and trampled all the nice powder. So they wanted an area set aside for nonmotorized use. And the two people that you need to talk to about that are Bryan Dixon and Lou Reynolds – who were very active in the new Forest Service Plan in protecting that area for non-motorized traffic in the winter. And they actually had a lawsuit over the Forest Service arbitrarily changing the winter travel plan. They won the first time and then the snowmobilers went back to Rod Bishop, a congressman and had the decision reversed. BM: Now the cross-country ski people, was that Nordic United? KG: I think they formed that group. I’m not up on it. By this time I was out of the valley enough for extended periods of time that I couldn’t keep up with it. BM: I’ll check up on that. KG: And CPLC was essentially dissolved as far as, what you call NGO – Non-Governmental Organization. BM: Like a non-profit? KG: Non-profit, yes. BM: So dissolved as of 2002? KG: Actually just in ’06. We kept it registered with the state for several years, because it’s very expensive to start it up with all the paperwork, but. CPLC began under the auspices of Audubon which gave them, you know, non-profit status and access to the environmental community. They were very supportive and very good. BM: Is Audubon still involved with some of those issues? KG: I wouldn’t say so. BM: No? So between the time that you started under the auspices of Audubon and the organization was dissolved – in that time, the road issues, and then the adjacent land issues involving monitoring with group citizens – there were other people that were becoming involved and going out and helping the Forest Service actually keep track of some of those areas? KG: Well I’m going to be pretty definite here. We never wanted to “help” the Forest Service. We wanted the Forest Service to do their job. And John Carter did a lot of monitoring on his own because he realized that when he was out hiking in the forest – and he did a lot of it – he saw how degraded it was. And he took pictures, and he wrote them and he requested interventions to stop these destructive practices -- there’s a whole literature, a whole background that he can tell you about – he formed his own organization and then he joined with Western Watersheds eventually (which he’s still with). This is a huge Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  3   �issue in the West. It’s not unique to Logan Canyon, nor to the Forest Service; BLM lands have also got the same issues. BM: Um-hmm. KG: So no one man could do it. I think what happened with our group is as we worked more with the Forest Service and we got more involved and educated ourselves, we saw these land use issues that really none of us were aware of. BM: Um-hmm. KG: BM: So I know there were groups that started up in Cache Valley that were interested in monitoring these “illegal roads” and – it’s Dan Miller and his group (and I gave you that contact) – and he would tell you what they’ve done. And they may have had volunteers that went out and saw who was running around the forest on illegal roads – but it’s very, very difficult to manage. And the Forest Service had no staff to manage it. Right. KG: So. BM: Well and there are groups – there is a group that I am familiar with up in the Smithfield area – and it may be Dan Miller’s group – that is actually going out and they have been regularly photographing through photo points to monitor the changes. KG: Yes. We have monitored the forest to death. It has massive destruction – the Forest Service needs to do something about it. But the motorized recreation people are such a force that I don’t think – it’s the same as the issue in Yellowstone about snowmobilers going into the park. We have overwhelming support that the public doesn’t want motorized traffic in the park and they can always find a way to let in a certain number. It’s a huge lobby. So I don’t know what those groups are doing but we don’t need any more monitoring – we need action. BM: And the changes in the canyon, with some of the land sales, the land swaps – when land comes up for private availability, do you see that as an increase in more of the access --? KG: Well, I thought when I was involved with the land swap up there they were very interested in doing it right and protecting the riparian area and Dick Toth and his landscape architecture group drew up a wonderful plan for that area. And there are ways to mitigate – you have development, but you concentrate it and you listen to the experts that can tell you how to preserve the viewscape and how to preserve water quality, and you know? It can be done. It seems that monetary interests trump everything. BM: And the choices get made in that direction? KG: Well, you know, it’s political. It becomes political. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  4   �BM: Um-hmm. [Stop and start recording] BM: Alright, the tape is back on and we are talking a little bit about what the transition of some of these groups, how CPLC had a spin-off with LCC [Logan Canyon Coalition] or a change with LCC and I’d like you to explain that a little bit. KG: BM: Well, I am only going from my cut-outs from the newspaper [laughing]. And on the second page in the Bridgerland Section (which all local people will be familiar with) there’s a byline – April 15, 1999 – where it’s a story about Logan Canyon Coalition, or LCC, wanted to pursue further the designation of Logan River as “wild and scenic.” And I think the thinking was that by getting it designated “wild and scenic” it would then drive guidelines for any further roadwork. And this (oh, I have to look at this and read it because I don’t remember it). Anyway, my memory of what LCC did that I thought was really important, is they cut back on the size and just the look of the Visitors’ Center at the top (the Summit of Logan Canyon.) They downsized the building and made it more environmentally friendly. Okay, and when you say “the top” we’re talking about the top of Logan – KG: The summit – BM: The summit of Logan Canyon. [Overlooking Bear Lake.] KG: The summit of Logan Canyon where they’ve built a little visitors’ center and a washroom, and I think that was really important to have that – I don’t know that we needed a visitors’ center, per se, but it certainly is a beautiful view from up there. And they got things like solar panels so you wouldn’t have power lines. And that was an interest that certainly Gordon Steinhoff pursued. I am very vague on what other roadwork LCC wanted to have a say in. By this time the people that remained in CPLC were quite involved with the new Forest Plan. Informing our members and commenting on the Forest Plan was a full time job. BM: Um-hmm. KG: I have a few letters here that speak to that. BM: But here again is that continuation with LCC really wanting to focus on what they could look at with the forest issues and their interest staying a little bit closer to the road, and CPLC – as you mentioned – is starting look at the adjacent land – KG: Well I don’t remember LCC having anything to do with land management issues. Now I could easily stand corrected on that. BM: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  5   �KG: I’m sure they came to our meetings and supported us, but I don’t remember them formally as an organization doing that. BM: Okay. KG: But then I wasn’t really very close to it at that point. BM: Okay. KG: I think the road had been done. Essentially UDOT followed the Record of Decision, and there were lots of hearings about that in the early ‘90s. And then we monitored it to make sure that they did it (and Sean Swanner was absolutely critical to that). And I really hope that you’ll be able to follow up with him because he was just brilliant at it. He had a wonderful disposition; he didn’t get angry. Everybody liked him. He was your ultimate negotiator and kept his eye on the ball and didn’t get sidetracked by personalities or emotional issues. And I just thought he was wonderful. BM: And that’s a hard one because for the people I’ve spoken to with Logan Canyon it is an emotional issue. It’s a – KG: Well, it was such a blatant violation of it by this transportation corridor. There’s just no question. And so he was able to work very consistently– just took one step at a time. He could read the technical drawings, that’s what amazed me; and could talk to the engineers and they were receptive to him, so it was great. BM: Okay. [Stop and start recording] BM: Okay, we’re back on with the tape. KG: Alright, so Barbara has asked me if I would like to summarize something for CPLC. I guess – well I don’t guess – this is on a personal note: I think it’s very reinforcing to work on a local level with issues that are very important to you personally; in other words, preserving the value of Logan Canyon from the natural perspective. And I think you can learn so much, you can have great interactions with your neighbors, your friends, people that you meet in the community. And you never know that’s going to happen until you do it and you just have to get out front and do it! And find people who have the same interests as you – and there are always those people out there. And I think in the end, although it was a lot of time and effort for me and I got preoccupied and worried about whether we were doing it right – I took away a lot of information and I learned a lot. That’s about it. BM: Thank you Kathy. [Stop and start recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  6   �BM: Alright, we’re back on. KG: Okay. This part of the tape is really not related directly to CPLC. The people that I have met in the environmental movement in the west have typically been from the east. They are impressed with the amount of open public land. You can walk more than a mile and not run into a fence! When people see how public lands have been abused by vested interests, they want to change policy so these lands can be preserved; these lands are beautiful just as they are. They don’t need to be “used.” I think growing up in the 50’s gave us a sense of place. There was a line between the city and the country. Even though I grew up in a big city I could go to the country just 40 miles away; skiing in the winter, the lake in the summer. We drove on two lane highways to get there. The little village in the pictures is St. Sauveur, 20 years apart, painted by the same artist. We walked around that village, often in our ski boots – not easy! We walked to the ski hills and then walked home at night buying our bread at the bakery and our supper at the local grocery store. We rented a room in a local home and practiced our high school French with the madam of the house. On those lovely sparkling winter nights we went to the pub and drank beer. It’s changed now. They built malls on the edge of town and the little narrow streets are crowded with tourists in the summer and winter. The paintings are painted by Betty Galbraith-Cornell who painted the pictures about 20 years apart. The older one with the horse-drawn sled was a very common scene for me as a kid. That would be a way that people got around; lots and lots of snow. And in the later one is just the streets are plowed and it still had that ambience, but it’s even of course changed dramatically today where they’ve put shopping malls on the outskirts. But this was just a lovely, old French-Canadian town with little colored houses. And a lot of English people would have had cabins there, ski cabins, where we would walk. So that’s about it. But it was a wonderful, magical place because it was little. BM: A lot of time spent outdoors. KG: Yes, we spent, yes we did. We spent all day outdoors. And of course I think that’s the secret to winter, is that you get outside for the day! [Laughing] And that you’re dressed and not cold! BM: KG: Well, thank you. I don’t know if I said the same as last time, but I got the beer in there! BM: Did you say Betty Galbraith-Cornell? KG: Yes. I think they were. Yes. I’m trying to think – yes they were. It was actually a friend of my mother’s who knew this artist as a personal friend. BM: Thank you Kathy. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Katherine  Gilbert,  29  April  2009     Page  7   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/104">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/104</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-01-11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Katherine Gilbert interviews, 8 April 2008 & 29 April 2008, and transcriptions Description An account of the resource In her first interview Katherine Gilbert briefly talks about her childhood in Canada and fond memories of outdoor experiences in her youth. She discusses her college education and subsequent jobs and training, and then speaks about influences as an adult which inspired her to be proactive toward protecting the natural beauties surrounding her residence. She discusses the formation of the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon [CPLC] and her role within the organization. She talks about the CPLC’s part in the planning of improvements and expansion of the highway and bridges in Logan Canyon. In the second interview Katherine Gilbert speaks about the direction the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon [CPLC] took after the completion of the Logan Highway project getting involved in land use management issues. She also discusses the differences between the CPLC and the Logan Canyon Coalition [LCC]. She ends the interview with some memories of growing up in Montreal and skiing in the Laurentian Mountains. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Katherine, 1942- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon Beaver Mountain (Utah) Canyons--Utah--Cache County--Recreational use Queen's University (Kingston, Ont.)--Alumni and alumnae Montreal (Quebec) Laurentian Mountains (Quebec) Wind Caves (Logan Canyon, Utah) Right Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah) Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon--Citizen participation Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon Scenic byways--Utah--Logan Canyon United States. National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 United States. Forest Service Utah. Dept. of Transportation CH2M Hill, inc. Logan Canyon Coalition Bridgerland Audubon Society Swanner, Sean Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Range Management--Utah--Logan Canyon Allotment of land--Utah--Logan Canyon Natural resources--Utah--Logan Canyon--Management Rangelands--Utah--Cache County Rangelands--Multiple use--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Montreal (Quebec) Laurentian Mountains (Quebec) Quebec Canada Wind Caves (Utah) Right Hand Fork (Utah) Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 8 & 9 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd8KatherineGilbert Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 8 April 2008 29 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-04-08 2008-04-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/af0b4b9dd8255af3f93c57ffd3df60ab.mp3 d32e0735f42440d5765054240e9252dd https://highway89.org/files/original/fe0d1ef3210c677f2d61ca7e5cac51c6.pdf c4cce95a61e96daf719459ad11e244a4 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Thadis Box Place of Interview: Mountain West Center for Regional Studies, USU Date of Interview: 21 March 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Elaine Thatcher Elaine Thatcher Recording Equipment: Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Glenda Nesbit Elaine Thatcher; Randy Williams (17 March 2011) Brief Description of Contents: Short demonstration interview at which several people were present, including Thad Box, Elaine Thatcher, Brad Cole, Randy Williams, Barbara Middleton, Bob Parson and Glenda Nesbit. The interview covers Box’s early years and education, including going to college on the GI bill and an epiphany he had after high school that directed his course of study from engineering to agriculture (ranching) related land use management. Reference: ET = Elaine Thatcher (Director, Mountain West Center for Regional Studies BP = Bob Parson (Interviewer; USU University Archivist) RW = Randy Williams (Interviewer; USU Folklore Curator) BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) TB = Thad Box NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION ET: Okay, you hit, oops, I hit pause out of habit. Okay Thad. I’m with Thad Box. This is Elaine Thatcher and we are at the Mountain West Center for Regional Studies at Utah State University. It is March 21, 2008. And we are doing the first installment of an interview regarding land use and policy. Thad, would you say your whole name for me. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  1   �TB: My name is Thadis Wayne Box. ET: Thaddeus? TB: Thadis. T H A D I S ET: Oh. TB: I don’t think my mother knew how to spell. ET: (laughter) Okay. When were you born? TB: I was born 9 May 1929. ET: Where? TB: On the banks of the Little Llano River in Central Texas. ET: Is that where you grew up? TB: I grew up there in Burnet and Llano counties; two adjoining counties in the hill country in Texas. ET: That’s a beautiful part of Texas. Now I’m watching the meter – the meter is on the front that tells whether it’s too loud or too soft. So I’m keeping an eye on that as we go. Well, so how long did you live in Texas? TB: Oh I lived there; I guess I left in 194-, no 1959 when I came here. So I lived there, discounting the time I spent in the army. I was there from 1929 to 1959. ET: Wow. Okay. So its home. TB: its home. ET: Yeah TB: Well. Yeah. Cache Valley is also home. ET: So then you came here in 1959. TB: I came here in 1959 and I stayed here for three years until I took a job back down in Texas at Texas Tech, starting a Range Department there in directing the Arid Land Center. And then I came back here in 1970 as Dean. Retired here in 1989 after 20 years as Dean roughly, and then went to New Mexico State for an endowed chair down there. And then came back here after I retired the second time from New Mexico State; in 1996 when we came back. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  2   �ET: What… TB: We’re slow learners. This is our third time back in Cache Valley. (Laughter) We come and leave, we come and leave. ET: What draws you back each time? I mean, obviously one time it was a job. But what has brought you back? TB: The people and the country. You know, this is really where we grew up intellectually. You know the first time we went back to Texas after being up here we thought we wanted to go back to Texas and it was a bigger shock than coming in to Utah in the first place, going back, because we no longer belonged anyplace. And we grew up here intellectually with Fred Wagner and these other people that you’ll be interviewing. That they were our posse and this is the reason we keep coming back is because of the people here. ET: That’s great. Um, well, you have grown up into this, this land related profession. What brought you to your profession? TB: I think I was born into it. My family, (as far as I’ve traced them back to prerevolutionary time) were always people of the land. They were farmers and ranchers and moved west each time new land opened up. And then, I was born into a family there in Llano County that at that time, we were tenant farmers. Granddad and dad all lost their land in the Great Depression with …. We’ve got a bank crisis now, they had a bank crisis then and so we lost our land, we were back on the land as tenant farmers. And so I actually grew up with the land. I didn’t know anything else. ET: And then you went to school where? TB: I … Well I went to school at Southwest Texas State Teachers College for my first degree and Texas A & M for the Masters and Doctorate. I didn’t go to school, though, until after I went into the army. I wanted to go to school. Mother particularly and dad both, they’d neither gone past the grammar school area. But they wanted me to go to college. But I didn’t go because I just didn’t, until I got drafted into the army. And then when drafted in the army I went on the GI Bill and never stopped after that. ET: Mm-hm. And what did you major in? TB: Agricultural education in the first degree and then Range Ecology for a master’s and doctorate. I got into the Range program… I didn’t know there was such a thing as range management existed until one of my professors caught me one day. I was already in the process with the two other people building a radio station: I managed a radio station for a while. And we were building a new radio station and the professor, Leroy Young, stopped me in the hall, saw me looking at a bulletin board Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  3   �and said “You’re interested in range management?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he says “Come with me over to Texas A & M next week.” So I went over to Texas A & M and they offered me a fellowship and I sold out my part of the radio station and went back to school. ET: Hmm. Now I want to ask, I want to invite all of you if you see that I miss a followup, I mean or I might have been planning to ask it later. But if there’s a follow up question that you want to ask, raise your hand so that, so that I can call on you. Yes, Randy. RW: I was curious about your [attending] a teacher [college]. [Did you get a degree as a teacher at] a K-12 teacher at the Teacher’s College? TB: Yes. In fact I have a permanent teaching certificate, a high school teaching certificate which came into being during my first assignment here. The College of Natural Resources and the College of Education were having a big fight over who was to teach conservation education. And both colleges wanted it and the other one don’t. So finally the Dean of the Education College said the only way we can have this taught in natural resources is you have to have a certified teacher. And Whit Floyd who was Dean then came to the faculty and said “Does anybody in here have a teaching certificate?” I raised my hand and so I started teaching conservation education as an overload. They didn’t pay me extra for it. They didn’t give me any release time. “You just, you teach it.” And so I taught it. ET: Oh my gosh. BC: I was kind of curious, you mentioned the GI Bill. Could you talk a little bit about the impact that had on your generation in education? TB: Oh, well, absolutely. I think there were two great education acts. And neither of them really came across as an education act in the building of America as far as I’m concerned. The first one was the Morrell Act that established land grant colleges and we’re in one here today [Utah State University]. The other was the GI Bill, because what the GI Bill did was take a bunch of kids that had grown up in the cedar breaks or on cotton farms or somewhere else, drug them out, taught them a little sanitation and organization and then educated us. They sent us back and had us go to college, trade school, whatever we wanted to. But educate us. And if you look at what happened to the United States after that, when these people came into the work force, it literally changed this country. The captains of industry, the outstanding lawyers or politicians, all of them came out of that thing of where we dared to educate all the people. And I feel very strongly that that’s the responsibility of the people to educate themselves. And particularly educate the poor kids that aren’t going to get into college any other way. I wouldn’t have gone to college, in fact when I got out of high school I had, I think, six or seven different scholarships offered to me. I was Valedictorian of my class, I was a fair football Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  4   �player, and I could have gone to college, but I didn’t know how. I sent off to get the forms and they came back and they had stuff about student credit hours. I had no idea what they were. And I was too embarrassed to go and ask anybody else what they were. So I said I didn’t want to go to college. And went out building fence and doing what my people had done for years and years, and it wasn’t until I went into the Army. And to answer your question, a lot of people are like that. I’m not unique there. They simply didn’t know what was available out there. They didn’t know what ideas other people were thinking, or where you could get somebody interested in ideas other than how to make a living out of the land. ET: But you chose a land related college education and that… is that because you... why? Why was that? TB: This is going to sound corny but it actually happened. I was, after I got out of the Army for the summer I was running the jack hammer on a construction crew. I knew I wanted to go to college, but I had intended to be an engineer. Because I thought building bridges and all that sort of thing would be good. And I was working on construction and that seemed to be working out alright. And one afternoon after work I walked down and sat on a creek bank, looking down at, watching some cattle water down there. And a doe and fawn came up and watered down there. And I sat and looked at that. I said, “I don’t want to build bridges. I want to be back on the ranch somewhere. I want to be in ranching.” So that afternoon I decided that I’m going into agriculture. And the reason I took agricultural education I didn’t know anybody in any other form of agriculture, except the county agent and the ag teacher. Those were the only ones I’d had any contact with. ET: Was that moment strong enough to be called an epiphany? TB: I guess it’s an epiphany, yeah. I’ll go there with you. It was just I think facing up to what I really wanted, you know. I had thought, I considered law at one time, engineering. These were the sorts of things that they talk about that you go off and make a lot of money and do important things and I thought that was what I wanted. But when I came back and saw that doe and fawn down there on the creek bank, I decided I really wanted to be in the ranching business. And I kidded myself for many, many years, thinking that’s what I wanted to do even after I got in academia. I think one of these days I’ll make enough money to buy a ranch to go back to that. But I didn’t. ET: So you know what they say. The way to make a small fortune at ranching; start out with a big one. (laughter) Um, I had a similar experience, and you know I took… I took Western Literature from Tom Lyon here at USU back in the [19]80s and I remember he, one of his ideas was that people who become western writers who can be really identified as western writers are people who have in fact had some sort of an epiphany with the land. They’ve had some sort of experience that has Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  5   �transformed them. And brought them to a decision or has somehow changed their outlook or confirmed their outlook. And that’s why I ask, because it sort of sounds like one of those moments. TB: I don’t think I recognized it as that sort of a moment. It was just, you know, deciding that’s really what I want to do. I’ve been kidding myself, I don’t want to go off and wear a hard hat and design bridges and that sort of thing. I want to be out here with the cattle and deer and run a ranch. ET: That’s great. Well um, so let’s see, have we covered what all your professional training was? Have we, you had, you had your undergraduate degree. TB: I had an undergraduate degree then I did that in 2 ½ years. I came…. Well once I got out of the Army I decided I wanted to go through. So I went right through, summer school, everything else. Taking overloads every semester. And then we, I got a fellowship over at Texas A & M and went into Range Management work and had a really, luck I guess to be given a fellowship on the Rob and Bessie Welder Wildlife [Foundation] Refuge in South Texas. I was the first fellowship recipient there, where a wealthy oil man in South Texas had given his ranch and oil wells to a foundation to study wildlife in relationship to ranching. And so I was their first graduate student and I went down there and I learned a lot about research and ranching and so on. But I had very good fortune to be, meet a couple of people that really changed my life. And one of them was from here in Utah, Dr. Clarence Cottam. He was, came from down in Utah’s Dixie. He was Dean of Biology at Brigham Young [University] before he took the job down in Texas. And the other one was Caleb Glazener, a teetotoling Baptist from South Texas. And these two men, I think as far as their work ethic, their dedication to science, what they thought we ought to be doing, was more important than any academic work they did. Because they really believed that we were out there to do something for society, not to it; that our work had to make a difference. They wanted it to be good work. But they also wanted it to be applicable to the people in South Texas. ET: How do you spell Glazener? TB: GLAZENER ET: GLAZ TB: ENER ET: E N E R. And Cottam is C O T T AM? TB: COTTAM ET: Now tell me once more the name of the reserve? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  6   �TB: Rob & Bessie Welder (W E L D E R) Wildlife Refuge. Clarence Cottam’s brother Walter Cottam was the old ecologist down at the University of Utah. And their son is Grant Cottam or Walter’s son, Grant Cottam was the ecologist back at Wisconsin in you know, good blood lines and ecology came through their, got into my training very early. ET: That’s great. This is probably a point where we can stop. Is there anyone who wants to follow up with another question about his education? I think stopping at your education and we’re about to where we should end. I don’t want to stop. (laughter) TB: Well you didn’t stop with my education. My education really came after I got on the job out here in Utah. (laughing) BC: I have one more question, Elaine. When you got involved with looking at the wildlife and how it impacts ranching, where was that science at at that time period? Was it in infancy or were you building on another body of work or were you at the beginning of that? TB: I’m, I’m… BC: As far as, you know, you mentioned you went to this wildlife … TB: Yeah. BC…refuge to look at how ranching and wildlife coexisted. And I was wondering where the science was at that time TB: Oh, the science. Okay. The field. BC: The field. Was it in its infancy or… TB: It was in its infancy. And Mr. Welder was really a visionary, I think. Because his will that drew up the mission for that refuge is a classic. He wanted science, but he also wanted it to be practical and he wanted them tied together. And that foundation, now, I think, it turned out something like 250 or 260 Ph.D. candidates from all over the world. Anybody, after I came here on the faculty I had several students, Jim Bounds was one, that did work down there. You apply for a grant and you can send a student down there to do the work and the foundation covers all the work. But no it was sort of a ground-breaking idea of how do we make money out of ranching and still keep the wildlife and the community healthy. And the trustees that set that up were very careful. They did a nationwide search looking for people like that and they picked these two that I mentioned. Clarence Cottam, who had been the chief scientist for the Fish and Wildlife Service before he went to Brigham Young and then Caleb Glazener who was head of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  7   �Service at that time, and a world renowned wild turkey guy. So they put together some people that they knew and knew could do the work. Yeah, it was an early experiment in that sort of thing and it’s worked out very well. BC: Has it continued today? TB: Oh yes. Yes it has. I got their, their annual report just the other day and I think they have like 16 fellows down there now working on the refuge, which is interesting. When I was down there, well, they brought on two others right after I did. There were three of us, all males. This last group of 16 I think there are only three males, the rest of them are females. And there are a couple of Hispanics and at least one black woman there, which when I was down there you know, they had people of different colors and different jobs on the ranch. You just didn’t, you wouldn’t think about a scientist in a dark skinned person there. RW: I have a question. We may need to refine our questions about this. I just thought of, in some professions having a family, a wife. Some are more conducive to doing that than others. Like in our profession, folklore, public folklore, a lot of people can’t sustain a marriage because they’re gone a lot at night, they’re gone during, you know, just big chunks of time doing field work. Have you… where, did your marriage come in during this time? And your children? Is there, you know, does a spouse have to be on board with this kind of lifestyle? TB: Yes they do. And that’s a whole nother story. And that would take several tapes to tell that. But just the first one: I had just gotten married when I accepted the fellowship over at, at Texas A & M. And so Jenny went with me down to the Welder. And I didn’t have any field crew then and she was a city girl, she wasn’t very good at it, but she came out and helped me. She was in the field practically all the time every day. In fact, so much that when I finally got my first degree – the Master’s degree, the old soil conservation man in San Patricio County who had been out helping me and worked with me wrote the graduate dean and said would you please put Mr. and Mrs. on this degree. (Laughter) Because she was out there working with me every day. But where the strain really came in is later when I had projects in Africa and Australia and all over the world and would be gone, you know for a month or six weeks at a time and it’s hard on a wife to stay home and take care of the kids and so on when you’re doing things like that. ET: I hate to stop. But we’ll stop. TB: We’re going to get around to Logan Canyon sometime, aren’t we? (Laughter) ET: We will Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thad  Box,  21  March  208   Page  8   � https://highway89.org/files/original/90fdce30d777aec90d65d6713b3aacca.jpg 64dd5c4c56f2351616e18f3f810fe53e https://highway89.org/files/original/53d922cb2900fbf025c489bc6cd366a0.mp3 5e8dcc63c6172e841cc2e88cd28bb9a7 https://highway89.org/files/original/9d33c305b3289ce58ff347e2a82a61fa.pdf 4cbeb0158ba306efc5263da55d1fb797 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Thadis Box Place of Interview: Date of Interview: At Mr. Box’s home in Logan UT. April 1, 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Bob Parson Bob Parson Recording Equipment: Cassette Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Thad Box (4/4/09); Randy Williams (2011) Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains some childhood and pre-college influences on Thadis Box. He speaks of his education, mentors and of his subsequent career as a natural resource professor. Box speaks about his philosophy on ecology and land management practices, the development of natural resource management principles and how they may be extended and applied beyond land management. Reference: BP = Bob Parson (Interviewer; USU University Archivist) TB = Thad Box NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 2: A] BP: It is April Fools, so we want you to be honest! TB: Yeah, well I thought about putting a frog in your coffee cup, but I didn’t!! [Laughing] BP: I’m Bob Parson, I’m here with Doctor Thadis Box, former Dean of Natural Resources, Utah State University. We’re at his home on west Center Street. Beautiful home, first time I’ve been in here Thad. TB: Thank you. Well, I’ll show you around before you leave if you’d like. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  1   �BP: I’d appreciate that; a home with a lot of history in it. This was an Eccles home? TB: No, a Nibley. BP: Nibley home, right. Well we sort of started this interview a week or so ago; or two weeks ago when Elaine Thatcher began to interview you at the Mountain West Center on campus. And we discussed a little bit about your formative life and career in the Texas hill country. And I wanted to just sort of begin there and follow up. You mentioned a couple of mentors that you had down there. One was Clarence Cottam who was a Utah man. I wonder if he had any influence on you taking your initial position here in 1959? TB: Yes he did. In fact, he and my major professor (that I didn't mention) is also one of my mentors. Vernon Young, a direct descendant of Brigham Young, was my major professor. And when I graduated – both those people actually offered me jobs in Texas – but I had an offer from Utah State here. And I wanted to come up here because at that time Larry Stoddart and Wayne Cook and Art Smith were the big names in Range Management. I wanted a chance to work with them, so I came up here then. But they all gave me good recommendations and sort of clued me in on how to live in Utah, particularly Clarence Cottam. He was a very interesting guy. When I decided to take the job he brought me a stack of books. Clarence was a good Mormon – in fact I think he was stake president at the time. But he brought me books, not only by Mormons, but antiMormon books for me to read and said, “Get prepared to live in Utah, read these.” And we’d discuss them. BP: So he showed you both sides of the coin? TB: Yes, he did, he did. In fact one of the books that he recommended most highly had just come out at the time No Man Knows My History. BP: Wow. TB: By Fawn Brodie. And he said Fawn Brodie was a real scholar and that I should pay attention to what she wrote. And when I came up here I found out not everyone agreed with Dr. Cottam. In fact we lost a babysitter because she saw it in our house and left. BP: It was not well received in Mormonia. TB: Well one of the things I’ve learned living in Utah, coming in then, is that Mormons who are outside of Utah have a much different attitude toward the world and people around them and other religions, as you do once you get into Zion here. BP: Why do you think that is, Thad? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  2   �TB: Well I think they have to survive out there. They also get associated with people of all different religions and faiths and so on. And they just, I think have a broader view of the world. BP: Um-hmm. TB: They’re not any less a Mormon or for Mormons, I think those two men that I mentioned (Vernon Young and Clarence Cottam) are two of the finest men I’ve ever known and they lived the Mormon faith quite well, but they also let other people live their lives quite well! [Laughing] But that wasn’t what – has much to do with Logan Canyon I guess! BP: No! TB: It’s how I came here though. BP: But it is interesting and then that’s sort of background to the social landscape. I want to sort of follow up and I don’t know how many times you’d been here prior to your employment here, but what were your thoughts as you came into the mountain west, particularly Cache Valley, as compared to the hill country in Texas? TB: Well the first time I came here I had been to a meeting in Great Falls, Montana and drove down through Logan Canyon, stopped here and visited the university and then out. And at that time I was just overwhelmed at the beauty. I never thought I would live here at the time that we came through. And I was particularly impressed with Cache Valley. One of my earliest memories about that were the Lombardi Poplar trees lining the irrigation ditches, delimiting the fields; when you drove into the valley you could see it laid out like a map with the trees around the properties. BP: A distinctive part of the historic Mormon landscape. TB: Yeah, yes. And those trees disappeared in the ‘60s – earlier than that. When I left here in ’59 there were still lots of trees and I came back in ’70, most of them were gone. BP: What do you attribute that to? The short life of the trees? TB: Oh no. I attribute it to – I know why – because there was a movement with the federal aid program to farmers to save water, to get rid of poplar trees. And they paid people to kill them. And so they took them out all over the nation, not just in Cache Valley. So it was a subsidized government program that took them out. But anyway, back to what I felt like when I came into the mountain west. Let me go back -- that was my first trip through here, just a fleeting trip. BP: What year would that have been? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  3   �TB: That was in, must have been 1957; 1957. Then I came back here in 1959 as a professor, or Assistant Professor in the Range Department. I was hired over the telephone and with telegraphs (we didn’t have emails then); didn’t come up for an interview. BP: Didn’t fly you out? TB: Didn’t fly me up, no. And Jenny had never been in this part of the country at all. And we left College Station with a new car – ’59 Chev – and a trailer on behind it that I built myself out of an old Ford delivery wagon; looked like something going to Oklahoma! All of our possessions in it, and a kid that was just learning to walk. And as we drove west out through New Mexico – we’d spent quite bit of time in New Mexico – and into Colorado and then into Utah, we were more and more impressed at the vastness of the country, the friendliness of the country. Our first impression of Utah, we stopped in Monticello to get gasoline and the guy came up and he was wiping our windows (which they used to in the service stations) and he stuck his head in and saw our son and he said, “Do you need a doctor?” and we said, “No, we’re all right.” And he said, “Well we have a doctor.” Which rather surprised me, and I said, “Oh yeah, you do?” And he said, “Yeah we finally got one, he’s here now, he’s in town.” [Laughing] He started telling me about the doctor and I don’t remember what he was. He was some sort of a foreigner. But they were just really pleased to tell somebody that stopped to buy gasoline that they had a doctor in that town! And so that was sort of a shock – was Utah really this backward that nobody has doctors? -- Because we didn’t know. And we came on up here, drove into Cache Valley from the south and over the old road – not the one that goes up Wellsville Canyon now – the old Sardine Canyon road. We were really impressed; got in here really tired. I think we’d driven from Moab that day, a long trip with a trailer on behind us, anyway, and tired. Got a motel, got in and I called my professor –Larry Stoddart (this was in middle of the afternoon), he said, “Well come over for supper.” Which I thought was fine. And he said, “I’ll pick you up in a couple of hours” which he did. He drove us over to the house, it was summer so it was long days, and we ate a barbecue or something he cooked in the backyard. And then he loaded us up and took us up Logan Canyon. After all this driving, I thought, “My gosh, why is he going to give us another trip up the canyon?” But I was young and polite and thought he was going to tell me about range management. But he didn’t. He drove up the canyon, he pointed out the camping places, he pointed out fishing holes. He stopped and showed us this trail where their little boy learned to walk; we could go up that trail. And he talked about Logan Canyon like he was sharing a special gift to us. Even as tired as we were and wanted to get home and wanted to get the kid to bed, we were impressed at him giving us the gift of the canyon and told us about it. And it turned out to be one of the greatest gifts that we got when we came to Logan because for the many years we’ve been here, anytime we feel frustrated or tense we go up Logan Canyon. We did it with the kids when they were little, they were raising Cain with us and having trouble, we’d just load up and take them up the canyon, let them play in the water or go for a hike or something else. And as the kids left, Jenny and I now in the summer time, I’d say probably three times a week we have supper up the canyon. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  4   �BP: What’s your favorite spot up there? TB: Oh, I’m not going to give you the exact spot! Our favorite spot, and in fact the one last summer when Jenny and I were sitting up there and we were talking about getting near the end of life we decided that’s where we want our ashes to be scattered after the medical students get done carving or whatever they’re going to do [laughing] (we’re going to donate our bodies). But then I understand they cremate the remains and send them back to the family. So we’re going to have to tell them where it is. It’s up near Tony Grove, but it’s not at Tony Grove. It’s a place where you can stop your car and walk about 150 yards I guess and be completely out of the hearing of the cars and a little stream running by. I guess that’s the favorite place; one of the favorite places. BP: How important is it to humanity to have that solitude; to have places like that? Obviously to Lawrence Stoddart it was very important. That’s the first place he took you; the first thing that he wanted to show you. TB: Yeah, that had always impressed me. You know as tired as we were and the kid wanting to go to bed, he felt like he had to show us that canyon and I appreciate it. But your question how important is it? I don’t know. I think it’s important and reading psychological literature and recreation literature that I’ve done, I don’t know how important it is but it’s important for people to have some way of relaxing an getting the worries of the day out of the way. People do it many different ways. One of the great things about living here is that there are so many outdoor areas where you can go and get away. An example of that, when I found out about the 9/11 attacks I’d been at a meeting in the morning and didn’t know about it and came back in here about 10 o’clock. And my daughter in law who lived in town at the time called wanting to get together with family. Well I tried to get in touch with them and she’d picked up Paul and they’d gone somewhere else, so I just drove up the canyon. And I drove up to a place up in the Tony Grove area and walked, got away from everybody and wrote a poem (which later became a column that I published here in the local paper). But it was just having a place to go and sit and think without other people bothering you. And that’s very important. I’m rambling now, but that’s a way of answering your question. I don’t know how important it is. Some people, those that live in Tokyo or somewhere where there is no outdoors must find another spot, but it’s essential, I think, for human beings to have a way to get away from others. BP: Well I think you know, we are very fortunate here because in large cities – I mean that’s the argument used for the preservation of parks and open spaces and things like that. And we have the most beautiful park imaginable right up here in these mountains. TB: Oh yes. And Logan Canyon is a real treasure – but it’s not only the mountains and the public land and that direction; you can go west and then marvelous deserts in an hour’s drive. East it’s a little quicker; ten minutes from now I can be up and away from people. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  5   �One of the interesting things now with all the increase in population, number of people, you can still go up Logan Canyon and get out of your car and walk a quarter of a mile and be completely away from people. I don’t think many of the newcomers realize this; they drive up the road, they don’t bother just to pull up a side canyon and stop and start walking. BP: I think it is a unique canyon. I don’t have a lot of experience, but one time we were in Denver (lived there for a summer) and the canyons around Denver and around Boulder and places like that, you can’t do that. It’s all private property – a lot of it is. TB: You’re right. And in fact that’s one reason that we live in Utah. We live in Utah for the people and for the scenery and other things. But one of the reasons we live in Logan is that we have public land on all sides of us. And I have more freedom to get out and traipse around over the land now than I would’ve had I stayed in Texas and owned one of the largest ranches in Texas. I could not take 10 million dollars and buy the kind of space that I can use here, in my home town in Texas. Yeah, having public land is one of the main – BP: No public lands in Texas. TB: Oh, no. Just small blocks, little state parks and I think a couple small National Forests. BP: When you got here and accepted your first position, how long were you here before you left to go to New Mexico? TB: Oh, to go to New Mexico we were here thirty-something years. When I left the first time I went back to Texas. BP: Oh, right Texas. Oh, okay. TB: Yeah. Well we were here three years in the first hitch. Yeah. BP: Three years. And how was the discipline of range management and talk a little bit more about Art Smith and Larry Stoddart and Wayne Cook. TB: Well the discipline of Range Management, Forestry, all the natural resource professions were in a phase of what I call “rehabilitation” or rebuilding the landscape. As I look back at policy changes through the centuries, the first 100 years or so, up until about 1900 our national policy was to conquer nature: get people out, settle the land. And it was the right thing to do – I’m not denigrating our people, they had to settle the country, bring it under control; bring it to bear. And then we went through a period of time when we started trying to preserve things: setting aside national parks, setting aside national forests, and so on with preservation. And then just about the time of the dust bowls in the ‘30s the professions switched to one of trying to rebuild the thing that had already been messed up. You know we went from exploitation to trying to preserve it and seeing that wasn’t Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  6   �working, and let’s rebuild it. And that was the stage that Range Management was in in the 1950s when I came in. This school here, Utah State University, had a particular important role in that. They first started teaching Range Management, Watershed Management, Forestry in 1914. And it wasn’t until 1918 that they had a full curriculum under a man named Becraft started the program here. And then in 1928 there became a Forestry School added Forestry to Range Management and Watershed Management, brought in several other people and then the people that I came in contact with Art Smith, Larry Stoddart and Wayne Cook – they were sort of the second or third wave that came in, mostly just before World War II. And they are really the ones that made the big impression on the rest of the world of what was happening here in Utah. Stoddart and Smith wrote a textbook that was first published in 1943 I believe (it may have been published before that); they outlined the principles of Range Management that were used all across the world then. BP: I believe it was called Range Management. TB: Yeah it was, Range Management by Stoddart and Smith. And that was the reason I wanted to come here because they were the real leaders in this place. Very good scientists and amazing people. Stoddart was trained in the Nebraska School of Ecology and had that approach of Ecology and succession and brought that to this country. Art Smith was raised in Providence, went to school here, studied under Becraft (the first guy that I talked about) and then went to California and to Michigan for advanced degrees. And so he brought to the table the whole contact with the local people because he was the local people. You know I would often see him up the canyon on a horse. In fact some of the early students that you may interview in this series will talk about Art Smith riding his horse up to teach summer camp or breaking a colt the same time he was teaching kids. And so these were I’d say two gents in the field that I was very fortunate in being able to study with. BP: What was the reaction from resource users during that early period when the profession was trying to make inroads in to rebuild? TB: It was mixed as it is today. You know the more progressive farmers and ranchers and users of the land saw the value of science and how to apply it. And having worked both in private and public land states, I’d say in private land states they are more ready to accept this because it was their land that they were improving and they could see. Here in the intermountain west many of the users of the public land resisted very strongly any sort of regulation or any college people telling them what to do. I think the reasoning was that attitude was tied in to the loss of permits. Because the public land was managed with the laws that went into effect in the 1930s. Land was adjudicated and people had the privilege to graze a number of animals on each given allotment. And then as science came in and began to evaluate and say that many of them were overstocked. In fact I’d say most of them were overstocked. And so one of the tools was bringing the vegetation Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  7   �carrying capacity into equilibrium with the number of animals that were on there. And most people then had to have their number of animals reduced. The people who had those permits saw it as a loss of livelihood. That’s where there were really, really great conflicts over the years that continued and still continue to this day but not as much as when I came here in the ‘50s. It was probably at a peak then. There were a lot of new Forest Rangers coming in that were dead set to get the land back to where it could graze animals sustainably and there were people dead set that they weren’t going to take any animals off the land. And so it became very bitter and difficult situation. BP: During your long tenure here in the Valley have you seen positive changes in the vegetation and things up the canyon? TB: Oh yes! If we had a video and when the snow melts I could take you and show you places where Benny Goodwin (who was another young professor at the time that I was here) and I built exclosures up Right Hand Fork and down Left Hand Fork on the other side. The land was completely bare. Now the posts are still there for the exclosures but the wire was taken up a number of years ago by the Forest Service. But there’s no difference. There’s vegetation inside and outside the exposure now. It’s all healed over; the stream banks are healing over. When I was here in 1959-60 putting up those exclosures it was bare soil. It was just really beat out and grazed out, particularly in the bottoms. Up Temple Fork and Spawn Creek and that area, was an area where when I taught summer camp the first time in 1959, I’d take students to that Spawn Creek, Temple Fork area to do their exercises and we would find areas – most of them were completely grazed out. You could not find a whole lot of stuff except shrubs for them to work on. We’d have to pick around to find the kind of vegetation we needed to do our exams. And it was a good place to give a variation of different conditions as you went away from the creeks or rivers up the side hill. So we had all that, but yeah. To answer your question there is much, much more vegetation here – herbaceous vegetation – than there was when I came here in 1959. BP: And that should benefit not only the land, but it should benefit the permittee too. TB: Yes it would. And I think the permittees are – I’ve not been directly involved with them in the last decade, but it seems to me that there’s more understanding of what they’re trying to do and willingness to graze them efficiently than there was before. BP: What are your thoughts on the two extremes? You mentioned the one extreme of grazers in the early period that wanted essentially to put as many animal units up there as they could possibly put, and the other extreme that says, “Get them all out.” Is there a place for livestock on the mountain? TB: Of course there’s a place for livestock on the mountain. And in any argument, the extremes are both wrong, when you get right down to it. The objective should be (on Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  8   �private land or public land) particularly on the public land, where we’re trying to keep it for future generations is to use it with whatever use you want to, but use it sustainably – that meaning that it would perpetuate itself and options would be left open for future generations. You know a few generations ago the main use they wanted to make of land was livestock or cutting timber from it and sod. Now this generation has many different ideas. Some of them still want to grow livestock up there; some of them want to use it for just a watershed to make sure we have plenty of clear water; others may want to ski on it or something else. But the point is we ought to manage the land so that future uses will not be cut out, that they’ll be available. We may not even be able to imagine what the future uses are. So that means that the productive base itself – the plants and the soil – have to be kept healthy and there to serve whatever needs we want in the future. BP: Was that the intent of the Multiple Use Land Act in the mid-70s? To try to – TB: Sort of. It was also somewhat of a political tool. The intent of the act that set aside the National Forest, the act that created the Bureau of Land Management to manage the trade lands, all those – the intent was to develop some sort of sustainable uses on the land. They didn’t say it that way in those days, but that was the intent. You can go back and look at the arguments and the intent of Congress – that’s what they wanted was to perpetuate a healthy landscape in the long period of time. The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act came out mainly because of the arguments between environmentalists and users – whether they be foresters or cattlemen or whatever else. And one of the political compromises said let’s put it in the law that we should have multiple uses and sustained yield. They spelled out the multiple uses pretty well, but they didn’t really understand what they were talking about with sustained yield. And the reason I said earlier it was somewhat a political act was that they wanted to guarantee future use of livestock or timber, and all these other things on the land and then threw in the sustained yield because they were looking again at the future of some sort. BP: What does sustained yield mean? How do you define that? TB: Well, how I define it and how it’s defined in the act and some other things are slightly different. Sustained yield in the acts of Congress usually mean that you can continue to produce timber or whatever product it is in perpetuity. In my definition of sustained yield is that sustained yield is something that is using a resource or a unit of any kind to where it can remain healthy and viable and keep options open for future generations. There are several general principles that I think one needs to do when they’re talking about sustained yield. One is that there should be equity and justice in the present generation and the generation – [Stop and start recording] [Tape 1 of 2: B] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  9   �BP: Okay we’ve turned the tape over here and Dr. Box was speaking about sustained yield before. I’m not quite sure when that ran out – it cut some of your words off. But anyway, let’s – TB: Okay well let me back up and talk about what my definition of what it takes to have sustained yield of anything – whether it’s a human community or a plant community. The first is that there is equity and justice in the current generation. By that I mean that the individuals in the generation, whether they be plants, or animals, or people have the opportunity to grow and prosper and reproduce. If they don’t reproduce there’s no way you’re going to have sustained yield. The second thing is that there should be equity and justice in future generations so that these generations can be passed one to the other; again, whether we’re talking about grass on a rangeland or people in a human community. And the third one that ties those two together is that the system has to have some sort of trans-generational transfer to where you could transfer things from the present generation into the future. And this includes genetic transfer, which we know about, it also includes cultural transfer – that you have to be able to transfer the values from one generation to the other. Again whether it’s animals knowing how to graze and why to fence that area, or people. And in all these the long term health of the system has to take priority over short-term gain and if it doesn’t then you lose sustainability. So all these put together is what I call sustained yield, or sustainability, is that we have a system that will continue in perpetuity. It doesn’t speak to uses, it doesn’t speak to “we’re going to use the range for sheep or we’re going to use it for steers.” What it does is that we keep the system healthy so that whatever the future generation wants can use it for that. And they have the obligation to use it so if somebody wants to go and run giraffes on it later they can! BP: Can I make an observation? TB: Yeah. BP: It seems to me that you’re lifelong study of vegetation and grass and rangelands and stuff has philosophically moved way beyond that to embrace the whole human condition. TB: Well I think we have to. I mean, we are humans so we have to look at the human condition. But we can learn a lot from looking at a piece of rangeland. BP: Um-hmm. TB: We can learn a lot if we stick to principles rather than get to arguing over uses or are we going to use this land for recreation and run motorized vehicles on it or are we going to run sheep on it? You know, you back up and look at that. The other thing that I didn’t mention in my little definition of sustainability is that we have to look very carefully at the interconnections and the interconnectedness of the system. The connections in the system may be as valuable or more valuable than the system itself, so you don’t want to break any of those connections. I get irritated. In the paper today there somebody was talking about sustained growth in Cache Valley. You can’t have sustained growth unless Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  10   �you are very careful in how you define growth. Growth in any reasonable definition is getting bigger or getting more of it. And so if you get more and more and bigger and bigger you eventually can’t get any bigger; you fill everything up. So the only way you can have sustained growth is to not consider growth getting larger or more economically productive or more people or anything else, but in quality. If you define growth as getting to be better quality then you can have sustained growth. And I’m way off range management now! [Laughing] BP: Well I don’t think you are because it comes down to an economic argument and the reason people wanted to put more and more animals on to the public land was because that was more and more revenue. It may be a quantum leap for some, but it’s not for me, to see the reason that people want more and more subdivisions and more and more commercial growth is to have more and more revenue. TB: Oh, of course! BP: That becomes one of the arguments. I think that your generation has been able to make that argument more effectively on the mountain up here than they have as far as the growth in communities. TB: You know one of the discouraging things is first, I would agree with you that I think people that came before me and hopefully my generation has done a pretty good job of taking care of the mountain, showing how it can be used. But the people as a whole have not come along with this. You know, they’ve become more and more disassociated with natural processes and are into artificial subsets of the main processes, whether it’s in the stock market or whether it’s painting houses or something else, and they don’t get back to looking at principles. And I just really get excited and celebrate when I hear somebody at any level – whether they’re a businessman or a politician or something else – that starts talking about principles and looking at how we can fit this in with the problem. BP: Um-hmm. I tend to get too far field too. But I just want to ask you because I know you mentioned before the connection with the land and how you had that connection in Texas and how you wanted to continue to have that connection. And fewer and fewer of us are able to have a connection with the land, and maybe that’s why there’s the disconnect between what you’re talking about as far as sustainability and human communities. TB: Oh, it absolutely is. It’s a big societal problem is that there are so few people that ever even have contact with the land. Fortunately I see a trend now in trying to get people back in touch with the land. There have been several people in education start looking at the ideas of getting people out and getting their hands dirty and getting them into their yards or leaving some natural areas and getting kids out into it. And I think it’s important at a very early age if we can. Most of the kids in America today – the only association that they have with the land is probably recreational experience: they went to a park; they went to Yellowstone one time. They don’t have the opportunity to get out and get themselves dirty. There was a little soapbox article in the Herald Journal last week (I forget the guy’s name) up in Preston that works in the D.I. up there that wrote about his Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  11   �backyard. And I just wanted to celebrate because he was talking about as a kid getting out there and the battles that he fought and how he won the NBA in the dirt and getting dirty and having forts that he defended against all comers. All those things they are important. And the kids I think want that. I have grandkids and one of the things that is most enjoyable to me is to go out with the little two year old and that they get more interested in the earthworm than they do in me! You know that is an exciting thing! But they’ve constantly got pressures from something else because they live in a different world. A couple of years ago when my grandson William was about just maybe two and a half, three years old – he was “helping” me (to use the word loosely) in my flower garden outside. I try to get the kids to work with me out there. And he found a dead butterfly and he brought to me and said, “Grandpa, make it fly.” And I said, “It can’t, its dead.” And he said, “Well put in new batteries.” BP: Wow! That speaks volumes there! TB: Right! Yeah. “Put in new batteries Grandpa.” And I couldn’t put in new batteries, but it was a moment to stop and talk to him about why you couldn’t put in new batteries when you found a dead butterfly. BP: How important in the training of students, how important was that summer camp up the canyon by Tony Grove? TB: Again, how important, I don’t know. I think it is extremely important in teaching anyone, not just natural resource people, but people that are studying to be natural resource professionals, need hands-on experience. Just like I was talking about the little kids need hands-on experience. They need to get out; they need to be able to identify the plants, they need to be able to fight a fire, they need to be able to do the sorts of things that you can’t do indoors. And that summer camp was a marvelous opportunity to do that. My first experience in teaching in Utah was in summer camp. I came here at the first of June in 1959 and Larry Stoddart told me we’re not going to have you teach anything this summer, I want you to travel with the other professors and get out and see their experiments; we have some money we can set up a little experiment for you, but we want you to get acquainted with this country. On July 3rd my phone rang and it was my department head, Stoddart said, “I’m going to have to go back on my word. Wayne Cook who teaches summer camp, his mother died back in Kansas and he’s going. You’ll have to start Monday morning.” That was a Friday! [Laughing] And I panicked! I didn’t know what – “What am I going to do!” I didn’t even know what -- . And he said, “Wayne his notes and curriculum stuff up in his office. You can go up and get it and look at it.” And I went up and looked and I didn’t really understand it. Benny Goodwin was here and I talked to Benny and he said, “Let’s go up and give you a short course.” So we went up the canyon and Benny walked around identifying plants. I didn’t even know the plants! I was raised down in Texas and these were whole new plants and stuff to me. So we spent all Fourth of July with Jenny taking care of the baby down on the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  12   �river and Benny Goodwin and I walking around looking at plants. I took a Life magazine with me and he’d tell me the name of a plant and I’d throw it in there and write its name down. And we got about 100 plants. (No, that was Saturday. Sunday was the Fourth of July.) And I went up – Jenny and I alone – on the Fourth of July and we picked up all the – went through this again and I learned it. And then on the 5th of July, Monday, I was professor and I went in and talked to these kids. And I asked some of them afterwards (Jim Bowns, I think you’ll interview him this project later on, was one of the students there) and I asked them, “Did you know just how scared I was?” And they said, “No! We thought you were the professor.” But I did. So I learned as I went along there. BP: Those would have been upperclassman – didn’t they take this they’re senior --? TB: They took it between the sophomore and junior years. But these were mostly veterans that I was teaching there. Most of them were as old or older than I was. But anyway, my point is that being able to get out on the land with them and talk about principles of land management and so on. They didn’t know but I knew that land that I was standing on – I happened to have that crash course and being able to put names on plants and tell them what the grass was and being able to look at the leaf of a Poa to tell a Poa from a Festuca and so on and they thought I knew everything, but I didn’t. But to answer your question, in that two month’s time that we had them we were able to get these students to get a very good feel of what they would be learning the next two years. That’s the reason we did it between the sophomore and junior year because you keep tying back to that. You can take a field trip up there to show them later on. I think that sort of an opportunity is essential, and I think we’ve lost something that we no longer do it. We’re not the only college. A lot of colleges stopped. In fact, even medical schools and veterinary school and so on now do most of their work with computers and with simulations rather than with the real stuff. And you can do a lot with simulations, but I think if you put the two together you’d have much, much better stuff. You could run the simulations then go out and look at it, or collect the data and then run simulations. BP: Do you have any observations as to why you think that that has progressively been downplayed? And like you say it’s across the board in academia. TB: Oh yeah. Well, yeah I have some examples of that. It also ties into policy. Some years ago – in fact in the early ‘90s the Forest Service switched over and accepted the fact that MBAs had been saying that you could be a Forest Ranger without knowing the forest. You know, if you were a good manager you could do it. Prior to that if you went out on a piece of land you expected the public land manager to know everything there was about it. You know, you need to know the name of the plants, you need to know all the wildlife there, you need to know where the drainages were and how much water was in them – roughly, you know you didn’t have to put a weir in every one of them but you had to know whether it was a permanent spring or not. And that gave a different kind of management than the people that look at outcomes or data that they gather and the only thing that they can gather are the vegetation and climate and soils and so on, and then make projections from that. There’s a big difference, I think in the understanding this. And as you said it’s not just in natural resources, it’s in all academia. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  13   �One of my students here that I had in summer camp went on to become a veterinarian. He went to Colorado State and I saw him a couple of years ago. He’s now a very wealthy and famous dog surgeon down in Phoenix. And he takes on, he said, about five or six interns a year to teach them how to do surgery and so on. When he was at Colorado State, Colorado State collected the old greyhounds at the race track there. And it was his job to prepare them, cut them up, get them ready to ship to other veterinary schools. And he handled thousands of dogs before he ever operated on one. And now there are very few people who have ever had that opportunity to be able to really look and dissect an animal. And the same thing happens on the range lands. BP: Well I’ll put you on the spot a little bit, but don’t you think that’s – I mean, when you get some grazer, some rancher that’s been up here and knows every nook and cranny of these mountains or out in the BLM country or something like that, and then you have somebody that the Forest Service or the BLM sends in to manage that and they don’t know anything about the landscape itself – doesn’t it leave the bureaucracy struggling for legitimacy? TB: Yes it does. And it makes both the ranger or whoever it is – the manager – and the permittee both at a disadvantage because they aren’t communicating. One of the most important things, I think, in being a good land manager on public lands is not just their technical ability, but their ability to communicate; to come in and talk the same language, to be able to get out and listen to what this old guy that you’re talking about that knows every nook and cranny, to be humble enough to say, “Would you take me up to that draw sometime and show me that spring is a permanent spring and maybe we can improve it some way;” instead of just trying to hide behind a regulation or a law. In my many years of natural resource education in several states and in another country in Australia even, we did you know, hundreds of surveys of people try to find out what we should be teaching our kids. Very seldom did we ever get a comment that said that these kids don’t know their trees or their grass or their animals or anything. But every time we’d get bundles of stuff to teach these kids to talk, teach them to write, teach them to think, teach them to get along with people. And part of this is a problem because the people that at least used to go into natural resources self-selected because they were the kind of people that liked to go out in the woods and not talk to anybody. And so you were automatically working with a bunch of kids that weren’t really skilled with getting along with other people. BP: When you came back here the second time as Dean, that was a period of time – in the ‘70s, right? TB: Yes. BP: That was a period of time there were a lot of those kind of people that self-selected to get into natural resource management and those kinds of things. I guess maybe part of that was the movement of the time. Will you speak a little bit about that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  14   �TB: Oh yeah. My 20 years as Dean here I saw all the extremes. We were talking about extremes earlier. In the early 1970s we had the largest enrollment in Natural Resources here that’s ever been in history – and probably ever will be. We were up to 12-1300 kids one year. I taught a freshman class that the room seated 314 kids, and like the airlines I would usually overbook to sign up maybe 330 and I’d think that they all wouldn’t show up, but they did all show up! And others walked in off the halls. And I had them standing up and the Fire Marshall writing me nasty notes about too many people in there. But it was a time when a lot of people were really wanting to get back to nature, get out in the woods. It was, you know near the end of the – well, it wasn’t the end, they didn’t see the end in sight,– the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was hanging over people; the bomb was very real. They were scared there might not be a tomorrow. The bomb was going to be dropped. The whole attitude of society was building into these kids that they had to make use of the world right now and a way to make better. They wanted to get away from the war; they wanted to get away from the bomb. They wanted to rebuild the earth. And it was a marvelous time as far as getting people into education. But the change wasn’t taking place out on the land. The people were going along just as they always had. And so there was a conflict there between these idealistic young people coming in and the old timers and the users. You know one of the things we said then – you’d get into a mob running behind it and say, “Wait a minute, wait a minute, where are your leaders?” Because there were new people out doing the leading then. And almost all the ‘50s were that way with students. And up until that time most the people that went into natural resources, we assumed would get a job in natural resources. You know there was always a demand for a Forest Ranger or a Range Manager or a Wildlife technician or somebody like that. These kids were coming in – they didn’t want a job, necessarily. They wanted to learn something about the earth and a way to get out and make it better. They had just as soon go into the Peace Corps and teach English as they would to work on forestry. There was a whole different bunch of people that came in and the profession changed because of it. And I think it changed for the better in many ways. BP: Um-hmm. And some of the people that we’ll be interviewing – I don’t know most of them, I know Barbara has spoken with them, but some of these are products of that time period. TB: Oh yes, yes. In fact looking down her list a lot of those are products of that time period. BP: How do you think their idealism changed once they got out – of course you’d have to ask them that for sure? TB: Yeah, you’ll have to ask them that. Those that you’ll be interviewing are the ones that stayed in natural resources mainly. Well, no I noticed a couple on there that became Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  15   �school teachers and other things. But yeah, you’ll have to ask them that. But I’d like to think that their grounding in ecology – we made attempts to get even those big classes out on the land and to get them to think about the land – I think made a difference in whatever they carried on. And I would argue that part of general education should be a land-oriented course somewhere to where you get out and make contact with the land. But they don’t do it; its hard work and such things as liability laws make a big difference now. When I first started teaching we went on a field trip and we’d say, “Who wants to take their car?” And they’d raise their hands and we’d take a bunch of cars up there – wouldn’t dare do it now because you’d be subject to all sorts of lawsuits. BP: You wouldn’t even dare take a bus unless you’ve got some sort of liability coverage. Yeah, that’s definitely been a limiting factor than before. TB: Okay – one of the objectives that I understand of this oral history project is to look at how policy has effected land management. And you hinted on one policy there that I want to go back and sort of emphasize – and that’s a policy in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s: opening up the management of resources to non-resource people. And it was done for really good reasons – Affirmative Action to get more women and minorities in there and so on. But it broke down that idea that the manager had to be conversant with the land; that they had to know how to manage things. And this didn’t just go on in the natural resource professions. Where I first noticed it was in US Aid because we had a lot of overseas projects at the time. And it started with the Reagan Administration and went on through. There was the idea that if you had an MBA you could manage anything, you know. You didn’t need to know what you were dealing with; that if you had the principles of management, you could manage it. And I saw very good aid programs overseas that were dealing with very primitive people in agriculture – completely destroyed because they were looking for all the reports and management and so on. So that was one thing: the change of attitude that managers could manage anything. BP: Can I inject something? TB: Yeah. BP: What drove this? What’s the dog that was wagging the tail in this? Politics? TB: Yeah, it’s politics. And most politics are politics because there’s a real reason out there somewhere that people are interested in. Politicians don’t dream up things to irritate people – which most people think they do! [Laughing] They have an ideal or philosophy that they want to get in. And I think this leads to what I was going to say. The second thing that you probably won’t have many people talk about policy in natural resources that I think had a huge influence, that was the idea of privatizing everything. And it came in with the Reagan Administration. And this idea of getting MBAs and so on was part of the idea of privatization. And how privatization affected public land Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  16   �management is something that was pretty well hidden, you didn’t see it. But instead of the rangers taking care of the campgrounds, for instance, and hiring a natural resource student who would go up there and empty the garbage cans and get some on hand training and so on – they contracted it out to a contractor who hired the cheapest labor he could get (maybe an illegal alien, maybe his kids, somebody else to do it). And you broke this chain of people working with the land, starting out doing the very simple sorts of things and then working up to someday heading the Forest Service. And you’ll hear those stories of people that started out emptying garbage cans. That didn’t happen once you started privatizing things and outsourcing the management. It was more visible in the Park Service where they brought in people. The biggest Park Service manager now I think started out providing meals for prisons, but they got a contract to manage the Park Service. So they came in and eventually they take over everything. And that happened in all the land resource management. So I’d say that was one of the big policy changes that affected land management and it won’t even come up on your radar on most people you talk about. They’ll talk about the National Forest Management Act, they’ll talk about NEPA, they’ll talk about all these things that are very important; but the hands-on implementation came about with the idea that we’re going to privatize the functions of whatever agency it was. BP: Well, so when you do that then again it comes down to the bottom line – it comes down to economics rather than trying to get people involved in this system of managing our lands. If a person is getting paid to empty garbage cans, that’s all they care about. If they’re getting paid a little something to empty garbage cans, and it allows them to get up into the mountains, into the campgrounds where they want to be eventually as a professional, then it’s a different story, right? TB: Yeah, but the sad thing is if you look at the economics of it, the privatization usually ended up costing more rather than less. BP: Well, you know I’m making another jump here, but look what’s happened to the military privatization, I mean. TB: Yes! No you’re not making a jump – you’re going back to the principle. I was talking about principles and they came in, primarily in the Reagan Administration and they’ve gotten a little bit the idea that private enterprise can do a better job than the public in anything. And there are people that held workshops and so on that argued that you should privatize everything including the fire department and police department. BP: Prisons. TB: Prisons, yeah. [Stop and start recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  17   �[Tape 2 of 2: A] BP: This is tape two; Thad Box and Bob Parson speaking this morning, April 1st, 2008. You were talking Thad, about privatization of public agencies. TB: Yeah, I’d gotten off on this thing of how policy affects management and saying that I think one of the biggest policy changes that has affected land management is the privatization of the management of many of our resources. Which I got started in earlier that I mentioned that it lead to selecting managers who understood managing businesses rather than managing land and I think those two are tied together. And the privatization started out very slowly with some of the more recreational lands like the national parks and then maybe some of the military lands that need to be managed, then gradually got into the actual land management agencies like the Forest Service and the BLM. Another policy issue that has greatly affected land management, not only here in Logan Canyon but worldwide, and that’s been the relative decline in the availability of research monies. The money available to do land management research has gradually gone down. BP: From a high point of when? TB: Oh, I don’t know – I’d have to look at the data. But my feeling is it probably had a better balance along in the late ‘80s and then we had before; I know if you throw in international land management research as well as local. But for a long time a lot of the research money for land management came through the state experiment stations and came as earmarked money to go to land management. And gradually they switched from money tied to specific land research to competitive research – BP: Competitive grants. TB: Competitive grants with the National Science Foundation, the National Institute of Health and those sorts of things. That is not bad in itself; in fact I think it’s good that we have competitive research and the best researchers getting the money. But what that did, it lead to a different kind of research many times, than the kind that needed to be done. Where the old state experiment station money came through, you’d be looking at a specific problem that would be dealt with on a given area. And you were expected to develop principles out of that, but also address what was happening on the land there. Let me give you an example of some of the old time research that was done under that that is not being done now. I talked about Art Smith and Larry Stoddart earlier. Some of the work that they did up around summer camp and Logan Canyon and over to Hardware Ranch and that area in Blacksmith Fork Canyon was looking at the use of animals and their diets and a combination of stock. They came up with principles that if you put more than one class of animals on a rangeland that you make more efficient use of it; that it makes better sense to have cattle, sheep, deer, elk because each of them have different grazing habits. And so you can have Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  18   �more total biomass with animals that eat different kinds of plants than you have alone. And so they were able to do that kind of work with money for specific science, though the principle came out of it. They did that back in – I don’t know, it was before I came here in ’59, so I’d say in the mid-50s sometime – they did it, published it, it’s quoted all around the world, even today. Some of this common-use grazing sort of stuff. When I came back here in 1970 as Dean, one of the first meetings I attended was the Forest Service had called a public meeting on the allotment up around Tony Grove. They wanted to switch to a common-use allotment up there. It was being grazed by cattle only and they wanted to bring in – BP: The Forest Service wanted to, or the permittees wanted to? TB: The Forest Service wanted to. The permittees weren’t too happy about it because they were cattle people. Several of the environmental groups just opposed it greatly. I remember standing up on the hill there with all the Forest Service and these groups. I was new back in town. And one of the people from one of the environmental groups said, “We want to postpone this until you do some studies to show whether this will happen or not.” And I pointed across the valley over there from where we were standing and said, “Back in the 1950s Stoddart and Smith did some studies over there that proves the point that it’s better for the land to put a combination of animals up here. Go to the literature and find out what’s been done.” They still wouldn’t hear it, they had to set up their own study to find out. BP: And did they do a study? TB: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think they ever put the sheep up there. I haven’t seen them. I think, you know they were just able to block it. But my point is that the principles, many of the principles that we need have already been done and in the old literature, and if you can bring that out and bring it up to date, you don’t need to do a lot more research. BP: Do you find that the profession now is reluctant to look back at the older studies? TB: I’m not sure whether they are or not. I wouldn’t want to make that accusation that they’re reluctant to look back. I think it’s more likely that the people who are making the decisions have not had the culture of managing the land and looking back at the studies. They may have come out of another field entirely – Sociology (and we need Sociologists, I’m not arguing that), but something that is not dealing with the ecology of the land and so there is a tendency not to look back then. BP: Um-hmm. I’m going to pause this for just a second. [Stop and start recording] BP: Alright we had just a little interruption there. Okay we’re back talking about – what were we talking about? [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  19   �TB: Well I guess we were talking about management up Logan Canyon and what’s happened up there. And in the break I mentioned that when I first came here in 1959 and before I had to teach summer camp, Stoddart had told me that I should get with some of the old timers and look at a lot of the work that had been done. And I spent a lot of time with several people – Ranger MJ who died last year, and some of the people ARS people and looking at exclosures all over what’s now Logan Canyon drainage. And there were lots of exclosures that had been put in by various agencies up there. And the area outside were grazed off completely and you could look at the vegetation inside that should be there now. Now you go back to those same exclosures and there’s very little difference between what’s inside and out so the area has improved a lot. What you could do as far as experimenting with the land has changed a lot too. One of the early, I guess it was the first year that I taught up at summer camp Wayne Cook had a study that he wanted to look at the use of various herbicides in controlling Wyethia this plant that comes out in the spring with a yellow flower that you see that’s characteristic of overgrazed ranges. There’s a whole big swath of it just above summer camp up there. And he had a grant that looked at control of it using several different kinds of herbicides. And instead of going back away from the road where people couldn't see it, he had the airplanes fly from the top of the hill to the road so you could see the various strips. And of course it killed out the aspens and Wyethia and other things. But he was very proud of this and he put up a sign of what he was doing up there to improve the land by killing out these noxious plants (they weren’t necessarily noxious, but the invading plants). And we wouldn’t dare do that now. In fact, herbicides are banned from the land, but even if they weren’t the Forest Service would insist that you’d have to get out of the viewscape and so on. BP: You would not be putting it on with an airplane either probably. TB: No. Well in some areas they still do – or maybe a helicopter or something else. But that same area that he flew the herbicides on has been burned at least twice since then by Forest Service personnel with controlled burning, trying to control the aspen or keep the aspen young and re-sprouting in that area. Wayne did it with herbicides and got rid of the Wyethia at the same time. BP: Yeah. TB: Also where you go over the summit going to Brigham City on the highway down here, off to the left right at the summit that whole hillside was covered with Wyethia and Wayne went up there and spelled out “weed experiment” with his herbicide. And it was visible until about the time I retired. In 1990 you could no longer see the bare ground, but what you saw grasses that spelled “weed experiment” and there were these flowering yellow plants all around it. In the spring you could see that. BP: What are your thoughts on those kind of programs? What are your thoughts on herbicides? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  20   �TB: I use them on the lawn for dandelions but I don’t think that they belong on the public lands, except in very severe and restricted cases where you can’t do something else. I think that most of what we need to be doing with public and private land is to use the principles of ecology and natural phenomena to manage the land. And herbicides should only be used where it’s not practical to do otherwise. And then, you know you have to know what you’re doing. You just shouldn’t use herbicides to kill plants, you need to know what effect it’s going to have on the connections that I talked about earlier – the bacteria, the plants, the animals are all connected. BP: Do you think we overuse [inaudible] over a certain period of time because it was easy? TB: Yeah, it’s easy. The sins of herbicides are not necessarily that they mess up the environment so much because most of them break down fairly quickly. But the main problem with them is again a principle thing – when you used it you generally used it for a specific, single case. And that case, if it succeeds may mess up the rest of the system. You know it’s not so much the toxicity of the use – though that’s important in some time – but it’s how it breaks the connection, how it changes the whole system. And this happens when you start dealing with single uses. You know I think a classic in that and we talked about earlier about the poplar trees in Cache Valley – this government project to pay for getting rid of vegetation started because an economics professor down in Arizona did a calculation (he didn’t actually kill the vegetation) but showed that if you killed all the vegetation on the watershed that you could increase water flow by (I don’t remember what) five-fold or something. BP: Is this the Salt Cedar down – TB: No it was not just Salt Cedar. This was – I forget the economist’s name – but it made all the papers. People said, you know water is always the short resource in arid lands, “we need to get rid of all this useless vegetation that’s using it.” Well trees are exorbitant users of water and certainly poplar trees are. And so the government put in programs that you could pay people to get rid of vegetation. They killed out all the big Cottonwoods down in Arizona along the streams there that had great use beyond just using water, as far as keeping the ecosystem managed. But they killed them out just to get more water. And it took us a couple of decades to find out that we were doing something wrong. Well my point here is that any time you go in with a surgical strike for one particular use – whether it’s to increase water yield or make more grazing for livestock or to increase teddy bears, or whatever else – that you’re going to get in trouble because you’re not looking at all the interactions that are taking place. BP: Isn’t that where the discipline of natural resource management comes in? TB: Yes! BP: I mean isn’t that essentially what you teach, isn’t it? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  21   �TB: Yes. You mentioned earlier, accused me of becoming more philosophical and branching out into everything. The big core of resource management is ecology; looking at the health of the system. And if you get the health of the system, whether you call it a cattle range or a forest or fisheries that produce big trout, the principles of ecology are very important. And if you start looking at how are we going to get more big fish out of the pond, you’re likely to screw up the whole thing. You need to look at how you manage the whole system. The same way if you start looking at the landscape we’ve been talking about up Logan Canyon simply as a place to graze livestock, you’re in trouble at the very start because the objective should be to keep that landscape healthy and to keep it useful so that whatever uses we decide to make of it we can make of it. And whatever use we decide we want to make, we should make certain that it won’t destroy or cut out options for people in the future. There are some places that you almost have to do that. For instance if you open up a gravel pit here up Logan Canyon you’re going to probably change that particular spot to where it can’t be brought back just by good ecological management – that you have to do something on these drastically disturbed landscapes. Same thing if you graze a range too long and you lose the soil on it; you change it to where you’ve got to maybe do some rehabilitation of some sort. But otherwise you work with nature rather than against it. BP: So nature’s pretty adaptive and – what’s the word I’m looking for? – it will come back. TB: No. I think one of the big mistakes that we have made in my generation of natural resource managers is to teach, or at least mis-teach, to where people picked up on this idea that if you do something bad to the land – whether you over-farm it or over-graze it or burn it too much or cut timber off of it – that all you need to do is to back off and it will come back. That’s not true. We used to think it was. In fact, I mentioned that Stoddart came out of the Nebraska School of Ecology – that was one thing that Clements taught and one of the main things we call “Clementsian Paradigm of Ecology” that succession starts from bare rock and gets to a climax and then uses force it back down that chain, you take the use off and nature will bring it back. We now know that that doesn’t happen. But a lot of people – and they teach it in grade schools and so on – believe that that will happen. That if you just stop doing the bad things it will take care of itself. It would if you hadn’t changed the system. But as I mentioned earlier with the soils washed away, if the climate has changed during that period of time or if the conditions are different, you’ve got a whole different system. And now we talk about states and transitions and thresholds that if you force land through use – these dry farms over here on the west side of the valley – if you stopped farming them now with the subsoil showing on them and so on, they won’t come back to the same palouse, prairie-like vegetation that was there when the pioneers first came in. BP: Right. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  22   �TB: They’ll come back to a bunch of weeds and other things. So you’ve got to be careful with this thing that nature will take care of itself. It will, it will stabilize the ground but it won’t be the same sort of a community at all. The same uses won’t be available. BP: Where would you date that change in philosophy? In Clements idea – the coming to grips with the idea that yeah, you can screw nature up to the point that it won’t always come back at the climax. TB: It’s been around a long time but it really wasn’t accepted. Actually a British ecologist named Tansley, probably in the 1930s was talking about this sort of thing. And then Odum in his book in the ‘50s wrote something similar. But it wasn’t generally accepted until -- must’ve been about the ‘70s or ‘80s. Some Australian scientists really challenged the Clementsian Paradigm. They were looking at much broader problems – you know, broader landscapes than we have here where they have ranching properties that they have over there that they call “stations” that are half as big as the state of Nebraska. And so you’re looking at different sorts of things. And they noticed the old Clementsian Paradigm didn’t work. We’d also noticed that here. I’d first noticed it when I came to the mountains. I had been trained in the prairies where that Clementsian system works fairly well. You come here to the mountains, there is a different eco-system on the north slopes and the south slopes; there’s different ones between different kinds of areas within the mountains. So we knew it didn’t work, but nobody had really worked out the principles and thought it through until this Australian group (led by a South African really) started looking at it and starting publishing in the literature. And then it came back into this country. And we’re still arguing about it. There are people in the land management profession that would get very angry with what I’ve said about that nature doesn’t bring places back if you just quit using it. So we’re in that process of change now. Just as a sideline, when I was in Australia in January, I had a yarn with Margaret Friedel who is one of the scientists over there that was involved in that and interviewed her and wrote an article for Rangelands or let her write it; just published her comments about how they developed this concept and started early in there. We know now more than we did. We still don’t know really how to manage the new concepts that are coming in because we know that you can change a site so much that it will never come back to what it was before, but how do we get it back? And I think what you do is really establish the interconnections as much as you can and then maybe nature can take it back. But it will be a different community than what you had there originally. BP: Nature itself can alter sites to the point where -- I mean is the landscape ever stationary? Is it ever static? TB: No, of course not. You know one of the things that amuses me and irritates me and I get mad at is just looking at the letters to the editor in the Herald Journal of people arguing over climate change! [Laughing] Of course the climate changes! It changes all the time. It’s not the same now, and that’s one of the main things in “nature” if you want to say, or Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  23   �whatever, that the system adjusts to the changes. And most of the time it’s slow. Sometimes you get a drought that will come on and maybe for a period of 50, 30, 60, 10 years and then change back. Or it may be a general trend. I became a natural resource manager because of the drought of the ‘50s. I always wanted to be a rancher and the drought of the ‘50s made my dad go broke and I went to college to learn how to be a scientist. I never went back to the land. I’m getting off the subject. Your question was does the landscape change with nature? Of course it does and we have all sorts of examples. You can go up in the mountains and look at the fossils and see that it has changed dramatically. And the argument over whether it’s man-caused or not is also as silly as the one that some people saying we don’t have climate change. Well we do. We could argue over the direction it’s going. And whether it’s man-caused is argued. If you look at my field, range management, and in any place in the western United States when it was opened up for grazing, we killed out the Indians and the buffalo. Within three decades of the time it came here (and I’ve got data that show it happened in the plains, it happened in Salt Lake) – within three decades of when human beings came in with their grazing animals the land was overgrazed. One system after the other came in. Now that was man-caused. And we can show that the dust bowl of the 1930s was because of over-plowing and overgrazing. It was exacerbated by drought. Sure, drought came in there but the erosion was mancaused. So to argue that humans don’t change landscapes make no more sense than the climate doesn’t change. So I read these passionate letters to the editor about climate change, I think, “These people don’t know what they’re talking about.” BP: So the land is really more fragile, I mean it can be changed easily? TB: It can be changed easily. I don’t think land is fragile. That’s one of the ways of thinking – and there are some ecologists that disagree with me. You see a lot of times they talk about ecosystems being fragile. They’re very resilient. BP: That is the word I was looking for a minute ago, Thad! Resilient. TB: They take a lot of change and come back. There are some systems that are fragile and there are some resilent systems – and it usually shows up in what their evolutionary past was. If you get a vegetation type that evolved in the absence of a large grazer – we see more of them in Australia than we do here (but there are some places that if you look back the fossil records you know they’d never had a big grazing animal on there) – they tend to be more fragile and their vegetation will die out sooner when you start grazing it and be less apt to come back and you’ll get another type of vegetation coming in. But I don’t see the land as fragile. It takes a lot of abuse and it has an amazing regenerative power. One of the things that humbles me as a biologist is the regenerative power that occurs in all systems. I don’t know what your wound history is, and don’t want to know, but you can cut yourself, you can get shot in the army, and there are all sorts of things, and you Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  24   �get well. They even note examples of where you’ve grown whole new vein systems for some reason and they don’t know until after they do the autopsy that you’ve done your own natural bypass. There’s great regenerative ability in natural systems. So, again, I’m getting off the subject. BP: I think it’s all connected. I think your point that you’re trying to make is that there’s a connection between the land, between humans, between animals; and again, it’s the ecologist in you, right? TB: Yeah, I guess it’s the ecologist in me. I guess I’m very fortunate in that being trained in that and working – well I know I’m fortunate to having a good job for many years in ecology. But I was very fortunate to be raised on the land from the beginning. You know, to be a kid outdoors and observing things that happened and wondering about them. And sometimes it got me in trouble, you know. When I was a kid my uncle, who was a year older than I, used to catch lizards and hook them up to old Prince Albert tobacco cans and work them as a team. And we noticed that their tails would break off very easily, but they could re-grow a tail. Well I had a great uncle that had his arm shot off in World War I and one day I asked my granddad if God would let lizards grow a new tail, why can’t Albert grow a new arm? Well that got me in trouble! [Laughing] I was being blasphemous, questioning God and a whole bunch of things. And I don’t think I’m unique. I think kids want to know answers to those questions. I talked about my grandkid wanting to put batteries in the butterfly. Why can’t man grow an arm? BP: Well that’s the questioning nature of humans. TB: Yeah. BP: Why we’re out to discover things. TB: Another thing that may be off the point, but one of my opportunities in my career was to work in Somalia before there was much – [Stop and start recording] [Tape 2 of 2: B] BP: We just turned the tape over and Thad was about to tell a story when he was in Somalia. TB: Yeah. The reason I’m bringing this story up to relate it to land management on national forests is how very primitive people sometimes understand the connections and nature much better than many of our professionals. I had the opportunity to work in Somalia in 1967 when there was only 85 miles of tarmac road in the whole country. And being out with the nomads, many nights I spent in nomad camps. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  25   �One of the things I was trying to do was to build a checklist of plants and find out what the plants were used for. I had a checklist that an old British biologist had made many years ago. It had the Somali name and the genus and species and that was all. And I was struggling trying to key the plants out with a key that wasn’t working very well. Our cook who was with our project starting telling me the Somali names of the plants. And it turned out that he’s been herding camel since he was 12 years old. I could ask him any question I wanted to about a plant; he could tell me its Somali name. He could tell me what kind of soil it grew on, how soon it came up after the rain. And he wasn’t unique. The people that took care of the camels and grazed them there knew that sort of knowledge. They learned it out there. And they’d learned the inter-relationships between them: when you could graze and keep the vegetation going. I was taking notes as fast as I could and once I got the Somali name I’d get the Latin name. And essentially he wrote my report for me. This kid had grown up out there. And my point being that anyone who spends a long time out on the land – watching camels or herding sheep, or just out there hunting deer or whatever else – if they’re observing it all. They see these connections and begin to make connections together. And then if you suddenly find a theory or a system that ties them together, you’re very happy. Art Smith used to tell the story about Ray Becraft who started the program here. Becraft came through Utah State, studied with James Jardine and then took over the program with just his baccalaureate degree, like they used to. And he was teaching forestry and so on. I don’t know whether he got a grant or how he was able to do it, but he was able to go to the University of Chicago where the famous ecologist Cowles developed this system of succession or described this system succession. Well Art Smith said that Becraft told him that when he started hearing those theories of Professor Cowles his head hurt. He couldn’t go to sleep at night because he was relating them to what he had seen all his life in the hills in Utah, and the grazing in Utah and so on. So here was a kid, you know, 1500 miles away who got back there and he he ran into something that caused him to tie all that he’d observed all his life – herding sheep or whatever he did – together. BP: Now where was Ray Becraft from originally, do you know? TB: He was from Brigham City, I believe. Yeah, I’m pretty sure he was from Brigham City. And he came here and did his work here. And he worked with Cowles off and on then for a number of years. In fact some of the documents I think I got in Special Collection when I was looking at the history of our college, I found that Cowles came out here and taught summer camp a couple of years. BP: He was here for summer school in 1924 I know. TB: Yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  26   �BP: And probably other years too. TB: Yeah. And so that connection very early between the people here who were developing the curriculum and land management and the best theoretical ecologist in America at the time, it wasn’t an accident that this university developed that sort of tie. It goes right back to those roots. BP: Pretty interesting. Yeah, that summer school that they established in the 1920s was – they had the biggest names – it was a stroke of genius. I mean it really was because these were professors that didn’t teach during the summer and they offer them a nice stipend to come out here and it was a good climate in the summer. TB: And you have those documents in Special Collections? BP: We do. TB: I want to come up and dig through those because I think that’s really, right there is the key to the early culture of this College of Natural Resources. It started one generation before Becraft, with the Jardine brothers. They were from Cherry Creek, Idaho and came down here. And I think one of them majored in Math and the other in English or something. I know one of the Jardine’s taught English here. But they also started putting together this concept of natural resource management. BP: They did. TB: Mainly I think because of the watershed problems; the hills washing down. And they were looking at – and the one that studied Engineering was more interested in that. But then when Jardine left, Ray Becraft came in and he studied and teaching. He taught forestry, he taught range management, he taught watershed management -- all in 1918. And then with his tie with Cowles and the theoretical ecologist it gradually developed into what it is today. BP: Yeah. Very interesting history with how that came together – TB: Well I shouldn’t be talking to an historian about this – BP: Well, yeah but you were part of it! TB: You know there are two things that I am interested in: in biology and natural resources history certainly is important. But it’s not just the history of genes, it’s also the history of memes. And when Dawkins came up with this memes concept of the unit of cultural transfer – BP: You’re going to have to define that for me. I’m not familiar with it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  27   �TB: Okay. “Memes” is a term developed by the biologist Richard Dawkins who has just published this book that there is no god or something – BP: Oh, okay. Um-hmm. TB: A great, famous theoretical biologist. He came up with a concept called “Memes” (m-em-e-s) where he said that there was a unit of cultural transmission – that you could transfer beliefs and values from one generation to the other. And that they were as important as the genes in determining what the culture would be like. And that speaks very loudly to me. And I think it speaks to people that work with land management, even though most of them don’t know it because that’s not a concept that is normally taught in biology courses. That there are stories, most of these have gone through mother to child and learning and stories taught around campfires and whatever, but it’s the memes that are passed on are as important for a school as the genes. You’ve got to be able to pass on the passion, the dedication. And I think one of the things that’s wrong with our country now (it’s not wrong, I mean it’s just happening with our country that we’ve got to correct) is that we aren’t passing on the values that make us a stronger, more democratic country. We’re passing on values that its better to get rich than it is to serve your fellow man. BP: Right. TB: And so that is – and I’m way off the subject now! But that’s an important thing – BP: Well let me tell you – you know who John Widtsoe was? TB: Yeah. BP: He was the president here and the dry farm expert. But anyway, I just saw a letter that he wrote to a former student who had been here, in which he congratulated him on his graduation and his new employment (and I forget where he’d been hired, but some place out of state) and told him to always bear in mind his responsibility as a college man, his responsibility for the public good, and not to be overwhelmed with seeking money. And that was his advice to this young graduate. I mean that’s – and you know you would never hear that, you would never hear that. And of course that was a hundred years ago, it was 1908. I think that’s important. TB: Well I had that drummed into me with family and with these mentors that I mentioned (Clarence Cottam, Vernon Young, Larry Stoddart, Smith) – all, you know, that it was important to serve. And that was the reason that I went into this, was to make the world better. And if you’re going to interview (I see the list) some of the people that I taught they may tell stories about me because that was one of the things that I always did was try to drum into them. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  28   �In fact, many of the classes that I started when I was teaching in what was then the new Forestry building (the one that’s now the Natural Resource Biology building). The windows in the classroom faced the mountain. And on the first day of class I’d tell them to get up and walk out and go look at that mountain. And then I’d tell them that their job was to make that mountain better. And it’s corny, but it’s important. It’s important that we feel value, or value what we do and that it will help change the world. BP: And do you see that as missing in the educational, in the curriculum today? TB: Yeah. Well, no I won’t say that it’s missing because there are people that do it. But this generation, and the generations are different. And they have different ways of looking at how to make the world better. You know, I’m sure that some of them believe that the way to make the world better is to get very wealthy and then you can spend it making the world better or something else. But I don’t see the general emphasis on that you’re here to learn how to serve the general public; you’re here to make the community stronger. There’s a lot more “it’s all about me.” I’ve noticed this, in fact I’ve been thinking about writing up the change in the generations. When I started teaching in 1959, most of the kids there were not kids, but young men (no young women there), they’re young men and most of them were veterans of the Korean War. I was a veteran of the Korean War and we’re about the same age. They were there to get a job, work out on the forest and make the land better. You know and improve their status in life. Most of them came off the farm, didn’t have any idea of ever being wealthy. Their idea was to get a job where they could do something useful. And then in the 1970s – we talked about this earlier – there was this idealism that swept that whole generation of the ‘70s, that you know, we’ve got to do something better. And they were obsessed on the threat of the bomb, the war. And the Vietnam War closed down. But we still had the bomb. So the generation of the ‘60s became the “me” generation; “I want to get mine.” And Rambo ruled, you know. They were big. They were tough! That was what that generation was all about. BP: The generation of the ‘80s. TB: Yeah, yeah. I said ‘60s – the generation of the ‘80s, I’m sorry. The generation of the ‘70s was this make the world happy and everything’s going to be alright and then after the Vietnam War it was the “Rambo Rule” time and I was going to get mine while it’s good. And then the generation of the ‘90s (and that was the last generation that I really taught) was a real mixed bag. Some people wanted to get back to the serve their world (and a lot of Peace Corps volunteers and so on came through) but the others were wanting to, you know get ahead quickly and make a lot of money. And so it was a mixed bag and I can’t follow through on it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  29   �But if you look back now at our leaders, most of them are coming out of that ‘60s generation – that the whole idea was to get mine while the getting’s good because the bomb’s over us and we’re liable not to be here anyway. And I think it’s affected us all the way through society. It’s a long ways around of answering your question of whatever it was – I don’t remember! [Laughing] BP: Yeah. I think, you know, we are what we’ve been taught and our culture. And I’ve found that – how do you say that again? TB: Memes. BP: Memes. TB: M-e-m-e-s. Google “Richard Dawkins” and “memes” and you’ll – BP: I’ll put in “Dawkins.” TB: Yeah. BP: I think we’ve covered most of this. The one thing I didn’t ask you is a part from religious zeal for the land are you a practicing religionist? TB: No. I’m an atheist. BP: Um-hmm. Okay, that answers that! TB: [Laughing] I wasn’t always. I was raised in very fundamentalist Christian church from a long series of Methodist preachers. BP: Uh-huh. TB: My sister’s just been working on our genealogy and I didn’t realize how many Methodist preachers there were. I was raised in that tradition. My first stint in Utah I taught the Presbyterian Sunday School for college-age students. Had all the black people on campus in my Sunday school because they were brought down there by Charles Belcher who was going to make sure that Cornell Green and Willie Redmond and all those guys went to church! [Laughing] BP: Did you find that it was out of a degree of real soul searching when you finally decided that you did not have a belief in God, or was that something that you perhaps carried with you for some time and you just finally came to the realization? TB: I think it just gradually grew on me. It was hard to admit it. BP: You’re carrying a lot of these cultural things. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  30   �TB: Yeah. Because you know, it was so much a part of my life. And I taught Sunday school, I was a ruling elder in both the Southern and the Northern Presbyterian churches for many years. And I guess where I finally decided to be honest and come out of the closet was that if there is a God and the god is not omnipotent then it is no god. And if there is an omnipotent god and he lets the world get as screwed up as it is, he’s inefficient or incompetent! So it makes no sense to believe in a god. This is the first time anybody’s ever recorded that I’ve said it. I don’t go around telling people they shouldn’t believe in God, that’s their business. BP: No reason to. TB: But for me it doesn’t work. And I guess a very personal thing may have been what put me over the hump on this, My mother died a long, nine year agonizing death with Alzheimer’s disease. She was one of the most Christian people I ever knew. One of the most giving, selfless people I ever knew. So if there was anybody that God ought to have treated right it would have been her. And you know, if there’d been a god that was omnipotent, why would he let that happen? It just makes no sense. BP: Yeah, there are questions you can only answer two ways. One is that there must not be, and the other I don’t know how people – people do deal with that. But there is a certain morality that comes out of the Christian traditions and you don’t hear them talk much about it in this day and age. But you talk about your mother and having that Christian – is that anything that carries over? TB: Oh yes! And Bob I don’t deny at all, I am a cultural Christian. I am a Christian, culturally. BP: Well I am a cultural Mormon. [Laughing] TB: Yeah, well I’ve run into a lot of them that way. I’m a cultural Christian and most of the teachings of the New Testament I buy into because they’re good socially. But that’s entirely different from saying that I believe in a god. BP: Sure. TB: I believe in the actions and the body and some of that. And you mentioned that there were two choices: “I don’t know” or “there is no God.” I’m a scientist so you know, you set up any sort of null hypothesis and you can’t find that there is a god. So you know, I’m much more comfortable saying that I’m an atheist than I am saying that I’m an agnostic. And as I say, I don’t go around talking this or preaching because I’m a cultural Christian and I’m proud of my Christianity. But I’m not going to believe in God, that a god did it. BP: We are, like I said, we’re the sum of everything we’ve gained up to this point in our lives, and so I’m sure it’s affected you – TB: Yeah, and it’s affected me mainly in my association with my fellow human beings. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  31   �BP: Sure. TB: I’ve never thought about this and I’ll think about it after we turn this off, I’m not sure how my Christianity and the evolution through the Christianity has affected my relationship to the land, or if it did at all. It certainly reflected my attitude toward using the land, but it still very much anthropomorphic. If you notice all the time that I talked about uses it was for human beings’ good. And that’s part of who I am. I grow crops or whatever because people need to eat. And I got into the profession of agriculture before I did into ecology and the reason was I got in to feed a hungry world. That was very much sort of a missionary thing – to get out and feed a hungry world. BP: Is there anything else you’d like to add right now Thad? TB: No, if you think of anything talk’s cheap! I’d be glad to visit with you. BP: I think there’s much more you’ve got to say. TB: Well I think we didn’t get into what I thought was this was mainly about was the effects of policy on management. And it’s in there but it’s sort of – we can look at that again. And like I say, I’m willing to talk anytime. I enjoy it. BP: I enjoyed it too. TB: Well thank you. BP: Thank you very much sir. [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Thadis  Box     Page  32   � https://highway89.org/files/original/e757e554a140865f3e092004b8ae80f8.pdf 27857c6f91d16ca8789823644ada7bf4 PDF Text Text About this collection: By Thad Box Logan Canyon runs east from the lush Cache Valley, which supported Shoshone families for hundreds of years. Beavers raised their broods in the streams and marshes. The first Europeans, mountain men and fur traders, gave rivers and canyons French names. Mormon pioneers established farms and towns in the valley, cut mountain forests for lumber and railroad ties, developed dairies and beef herds in the canyon. Landless, migratory sheepmen brought flocks from afar. By the late 1800s, the land in canyons and mountains was barren. Sheep herds could be counted from Logan by the clouds of dust they raised. Logan River and its tributaries were polluted by silt and debris. Utah Agricultural College was established in 1888 as Utah's land grant school. The Cache National Forest was created in 1902 at the request of local citizens who feared mudslides from denuded lands. These local citizens wanted the landscape rehabilitated. For the next 100 years scientists, engineers and land managers conducted research, applied what was learned and rebuilt the abused land. In so doing, hundreds of scientists, scholars, land managers and local citizens helped reclaim the areas in and around Logan Canyon into a special place of beauty. They gradually rebuilt its productivity. Hundreds of thousands of people come through the canyon each year. The canyon has become more than a beautiful mountain canyon; it is a part of people's lives and an icon of their culture. Some of the earliest work at Utah Agricultural College and the Utah Agricultural Experiment Station was stabilizing land to prevent landslides and improving overgrazed and overcut mountains. Curricula were developed in the emerging fields of forestry, ecology, range management, watershed management and environmental engineering. Managers were trained in Utah, but worked worldwide. Academic units in the College of Natural Resources and the water program developed reputations for land care. Their research was applied all over the world. In an effort to document these efforts, Special Collections and Archives in the Merrill-Cazier Library have the personal and professional papers of many of the scientists and land managers who helped rebuild Logan Canyon. More are being added. These collections form a valuable reference for anyone interested in land management and policy. These include papers from pioneer academics such as Laurence Stoddart and Arthur Smith, forest ecologist Lincoln Ellison and forest manager William Hurst. Beginning in 2008, Utah State University’s Special Collections & Archives, the Mountain West Center for Regional Studies and the College of Natural Resources Department of Environment and Society collaborated to collect the oral histories of key land use managers and users. Trained interviewers from The Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project gathered oral histories of people who have worked in or enjoyed the Canyon during the last century. In these interviews, available in audio and transcript form, people talk about what Logan Canyon meant to them. The stories of ranchers, recreationists, scientists, activists, scholars, foresters and sheepherders add cultural depth to the work of scientists, engineers and academics. This growing collection of oral histories and personal papers from those who have worked in Logan Canyon is fast becoming a major resource for others interested in rehabilitation, land management and policy. These oral recollections form a basis for understanding policy in one area. Principles from them can be applied to broader land areas.     � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/109">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/109</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-10-16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thad Box interviews, 21 March 2008 and 1 April 2008, transcriptions, color photograph Description An account of the resource The first interview covers Thad Box’s early years in Texas and his education. The interview was a demonstration of interview techniques by Elaine Thatcher to members of the Land Use Management Oral History Project members, including Brad Cole, Randy Williams, Barbara Middleton, Bob Parson and Glenda Nesbit. The second interview contains some childhood and pre-college influences of Thad Box. He speaks of his education, mentors, and of his subsequent career as a natural resource professor. Box speaks about his philosophy on ecology and land management practices, the development of natural resource management principles and how they may be extended and applied beyond land management. He talks about the importance of people to have access to nature. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Box, Thadis W. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thatcher, Elaine Subject The topic of the resource Box, Thadis W.--Interviews Box, Thadis W.--Family Utah State University--Faculty--Interviews Agricultural education--Texas Logan Canyon (Utah) Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon Mormons--Social conditions Rob and Bessie Welder Wildlife Foundation Cottam, Clarence, 1899- Glazener, Caleb Young, Vernon A. (Vernon Alphus), 1894-1973 Range management--Study and teaching United States. Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 Canyons--Utah--Cache County--Psychological aspects Solitude--Utah--Logan Canyon Public lands--Utah--Logan Canyon Stoddart, L. A. (Laurence Alexander), 1909-1968 Smith, Arthur D. (Arthur Dwight), 1907-1993 Restoration ecology--Utah--Logan Canyon Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon United States. Multiple Use-Sustained Yield Act of 1960 Sustainability Privatization--Law and legislation--United States Range management--Research Cultural landscapes Land research Rangelands--Revegetation Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Llano County (Texas) Cache County (Utah) Australia Somalia Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah) Hardware Ranch (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Utah United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections &amp Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 4 &amp 5 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2ThadisBox Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 21 March 2008 1 April 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-03-21 2008-04-01 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/e6b1afc9e894b0b290254aedb66d94a3.mp3 50f989b770159ede9c1934fa91b3e517 https://highway89.org/files/original/33b8d6a112e411b69ba487897465c1ea.pdf 1801e8066e07ae2c3d3b8c53d546bb77 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: Barrie Gilbert Place of Interview: Mr. Gilbert’s office at Utah State University Date of Interview: 21 May 2008 Interviewer: Recordist: Brad Cole Brad Cole Recording Equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross, 10 July 1008 Brad Cole and Barrie Gilbert; Randy Williams (1 June 2011) Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains a brief description of Barrie Gilbert’s childhood and details of his schooling and subsequent career in wildlife management. It includes his story of being attacked by a grizzly bear, his attitudes on wildlife management in both the U.S. and Canada, and the political pressures he and others face(d) in doing research in wildlife management and in management policies. Reference: BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries) BG = Barrie Gilbert NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [00:00] BC: This is Brad Cole from Special Collections and Archives at Utah State University. It’s May 21st [2008 and we’re visiting today with Dr. Barrie Gilbert, Professor Emeritus in the Natural Resources department at Utah State University. Barrie, I’d like to start off the interview with starting at the very beginning and ask you when and where you were born. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  1   �BG: Alright. Kingston, Ontario, Canada, on the 3rd of June 1937. BC: And who were your parents? BG: My parents were John Kay Gilbert – he worked in the Canadian Locomotive Company in Kingston, Ontario. My mother was Lorraine Isabelle Hall, from the Kingston area. Both of them grew up and were born in Kingston, as actually, my grandfather and greatgrandfather before them. Before that they came from Limavady, Ireland. That’s my early life. BC: What are some of your earliest memories of growing up in Kingston, Ontario? BG: The earliest thing I remember was things like catching frogs at my grandfather’s camp. We had a summer place; actually it was the only place that we owned, on Lake Ontario. I think that’s how I became a biologist. My mother’s father was quite a fisherman and duck hunter and he had a little shack – actually, a many-roomed shack because he had a family of six kids – which my mother was one. My father bought a real old shack on the same bay, Sand Bay, where I spent all of my summers as a kid rowing and sailing and falling off rafts that I made in the cold water. Probably that’s where I experienced the wildest nature, and probably became a biologist by observing things and being out in nature all the time. We had pretty much free run of the woods and fields. We had a stream that went right by our – I call it a shack because my dad bought it from a couple of college kids for $200, and you could probably throw darts at the wall and half of them would go through the cracks on the outside – and he renovated that completely. My dad was quite a handyman. He ended up building us a boat, a sail boat, and we explored – my brother and I spent our childhood messing around in small boats. [2:53] BC: You have one brother? BG: I have one brother who’s 18 months older than I am, still alive – living in eastern Ontario actually, not far from where I built a home on an island. BC: And what was his name? BG: His name was John Stanley Gilbert. BC: Sounds like, did your parents do any other kind of outdoor activities with you other than just going to the – BG: Not a whole lot. We didn’t have a lot of money. We went on summer trips when we finally ended up getting a second-hand car in, I think about the mid-40s. Before that we basically took buses everywhere. My brother and I went to school by bus. We went to our cottage from, basically when the ice broke up until October, or so, or maybe September when school started. And then we rented a house in the earlier years, a different house Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  2   �every year. Then finally, things got a little bit better and we built another cottage. My dad and I built a sunny-built cottage when I was in high school down in the St. Lawrence River. I went to public high school, then actually university all in about the same 10 blocks, which is fairly unusual. We had a very good university, Queens University, in Kingston, and I was the first one in my family to attend university – my direct family. BC: And were there any influential teachers from those early school years that you remember? BG: Yeah. I guess there are a number. I particularly liked some of my science teachers, who were very good teachers, and an English teacher gave me great respect for the English language and we’re always taught to write as much as we could and write well. And then when I went to college, university there in biology I was very fortunate to have a friend’s father who was a professor of biology, and he got me a couple of jobs when I was in college. One working on sea-land prey control for a summer up on Lake Superior, and the second year I was a field biologist, if you like, although I didn’t have a biology degree, on a sword-fishing boat, collecting biological data for the Fisheries Research Board of Canada. If you wonder why I work on big carnivores, it’s because I started on big fish! BC: So you started in Fisheries, but what was your main emphasis? [5:35] BG: Well, I think I really wanted to be a Fisheries Biologist, but I think it was just simplistic because I’d done a lot of fishing and seemed to like the science of fisheries biology. My main professor and mentor, had just got his doctorate from Yale under G. [George ]   Evelyn Hutchinson. And he came back to Queens, and took a shine to me and me to him, and I worked at the field station. He was a limnologist, he actually studied the chemistry of bottom sediments – the muds and chlorophylls and pheophytins and complex chemicals. And so I liked the idea of doing biology on lakes or something to do with fish. But I switched completely out of that when I applied for graduate school at Duke University, because my professor, Dr. Peter Klopfer specialty was bird behavior and mammal behavior mostly. He had a herd of deer that he wanted me to do some studies on, and that’s what I did my masters and PhD. So, that was a lucky break in many ways because I really was very interested in behavior. I can remember in college, gravitating to taking psychology courses because I was interested in animal behavior. And it was just becoming a field of ecology at this time. People like W.C. (Warder Clyde) Allee, the famous ecologist, was studying social behavior in all kinds of animals from fish up to herd animals, and I guess I had some intuition that studying the behavior of animals could be a career, and it was clearly a discipline at that stage. Dr. Peter Klopfer was one of the leaders in the North American continent, so I was very fortunate to study behavior with him, and I’ve never looked back in terms of studying behavior. That’s what I taught here at Utah State most of my career. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  3   �[7:41] BC: And after you received your doctorate, where did you go from there? BG: That’s when I came to Utah. I saw an advertisement in Science magazine for a National Science Foundation post-doc with Dr. Dietland Muller-Schwarze who was on staff here in Fisheries and Wildlife, and was studying pronghorn antelope. He had earlier done his doctoral work with the Nobel Prize winner Konrad Lorenz in Austria, and Dietland was an Austrian himself I believe, or a German. He came to Utah State on faculty and had some money to have somebody study pronghorn in the field, and that sounded like a great opportunity to me. I had been studying deer under enclosed conditions. We had a onemile perimeter fence with a herd of about 25 fallow deer, and I was going to study freeranging pronghorn in Yellowstone, particularly looking at how they use scent-marking in territoriality, which I did study and published on. Dietland Muller-Schwarze was doing experimental work with scent glands in deer and pronghorn. He’d come from one of the UC campuses, maybe it was Davis – I forget where. But he’d looked at the glands and the communication of the deer and was switching to pronghorn and had hand-raised pronghorn out at Green Canyon station here. So that was a very lucky break. I spent two summers and two years here, and then had to get a real job and went to Alberta looking for either a wildlife position, or a university position. BC: What years were you --? BG: Oh that was – the post-doc was [19]‘70-71 I believe and I left at the end of ’71 and went to Alberta for four years. I went to a fledgling campus that never did get built. It was called Athabasca University; it’s currently an Open University format. I lasted there – I wasn’t too happy because there was a bunch of people sitting around and I was supposed to give lectures and write newspaper articles and have a course by newspaper, and I wasn’t at all prepared to do that – I wasn’t very good at it, and I certainly wasn’t trained at it. So my next job was as a vertebrate zoologist with the Department of Agriculture in Alberta, looking at pests of problems. I started working with bears there because they have a massive conflict with bears coming into bee yards doing hundreds of thousands of dollars damage. The bee business, apiary business, honey business was worth about $10 million a year, and it was being devastated by black bears coming in and eating the bee larvae and bee eggs and those sorts of things. I worked two years with the Department of Agriculture, the provincial government’s Vertebrate Pest Group and I was supposed be doing the research on any problem vertebrate that affected agriculture. So I had to look at pocket gophers, I was looking at some coyote killing of sheep, some bear killing of sheep, and then I decided to concentrate on the bee-yard conflicts because it was such a massive problem and people were killing bears willy-nilly all over the place. Approximately 1,000 bears a year were being killed, mainly for control purposes, in some pretty horrid ways. So we started some research to try and determine how we could keep bears out of bee yards – electric fences, and I started experiments with taste aversion conditioning – where you put a chemical, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  4   �lithium chloride in, and try to make the bears sick without getting into too many details about that. But that was fun because that was a type of experimental management that really appealed to me. The government was providing the money to help the beekeepers protect their crops, and I was able to do an experimental test to see which one would really be effective and efficient in keeping bears away from the bee yards without using a lethal technique. That was reasonably successful. I quite enjoyed that and published on that -you’ll see that in my papers. Then the government decided to move the lab out to a very small town out in the boonies. My wife [Katherine Gilbert] and I had young children and we liked living in the bigger city, so I applied for a job with Alberta Fish and Wildlife Division in an area that I had become interested in because of my doctoral work. Are we okay? And that was on game ranching, which was a new idea. Because I had done PhD on the effects of imprinting in fallow deer and how the behavior of young deer could essentially tame them or domesticate them within a couple of days’ contact with people, I thought that some wildlife like moose and mule deer could be domesticated if it made sense. It’s pretty much out of favor these days, but that was the early stages. I spent a couple of years developing a field station and working on that. (I’m getting a little feedback – am I talking too loud, or is it recording too loud?) [Tape problems, begin again] [Some discussion on the recording equipment; stop and start.] [01:07] BG: We were just finishing off, I think with my position with game ranching, which lasted until I saw a notice for a teaching position back here at Utah State. My wife and I both had a very nice experience on my post-doc here. The faculty position that opened up was the one that Dr. Allen Stokes had vacated because he retired a bit early. I responded to the notice and I was told there were 100 applicants for this position, but I was short-listed and they finally asked me if I wanted the position. That’s when I started my career in August of 1976 – career of teaching at Utah State, in what was then the Fisheries and Wildlife department. BC: What was Utah State like in 1976? BG: I don’t recall that it was a whole lot different than it is now, in the sense that we had an active aquatic and fisheries group of people, like Bill Helm and John Neuhold was here. I believe John Kadlec was department head when I came and he was a wetlands type. We were well-represented, I think, across the board in both ecosystem and species orientation. As I recall, Mike Wolfe was here, Fred Wagner was here. Fred Wagner had been working on coyotes and desert ecosystems; Mike Wolfe was a large mammal habitat person. It was a very interesting group of people. They were trying very hard to Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  5   �have a scholarly approach to wildlife management and were encouraged to publish in first rate journals and attend conferences, etc. There was a lot of emphasis, about 50% of my contract was for research, and 50% for teaching, and that was fairly traditional. [3:21] The one thing that I liked about the department here was the freedom to do field research. I considered teaching “load” as they call it, to be very light. I enjoyed that because I put a lot of effort into my teaching and took it quite seriously, I think. It was an opportunity, one of the reasons I left government wildlife work was to be able to be on committees of a variety of projects of all kinds of animal species, and that allowed me to bring my behavioral interests and other interests to bear on them without being directly involved in the research myself. I had been doing pronghorn and deer work, and when I came here I had some experience with the Yellowstone people, and grizzly bears and black bears were a bit of a focus. Since I’d worked on black bears in Alberta, problem wildlife, I thought “well I’ll go talk to people at Yellowstone; they seem to have a conflict between grizzly bears and back country people.” They’d had a couple of nasty accidents and they had a lot of traffic. Backpacking was very popular, as you remember, in the mid-70s, and there were a fair number of outfitters going through the park that were going through a high-quality grizzly bear habitat. They weren’t particularly, as I recall, the park wasn’t particularly sanguine about how they were going to manage this contact between bears and people. So I had a small contract to look at bear-human interactions, and took on a student from the southeast, Bruce Hastings, who was going to work on his masters on human-grizzly interactions in Yellowstone. We got a little bit of funding from the Park Service, and set out in early June, I think it was, to Yellowstone, after I’d finished my lecturing. We went to various places that people told us there were aggregations of grizzlies. My idea was to help Bruce get setup in some high place and observe grizzly bears as people came along trails: see what the bears did – did they approach them? Did they leave them? Did they just abandon the whole valley? Those sorts of things. [6:01] We paddled the full length of Yellowstone Lake to go down the south mountain arm and see whether there was some potential there. Either enough bears or open enough habitat that we could observe them. That didn’t turn out to be a very good place. There were bear tracks, but it was a logistically hard place to work, and you couldn’t be guaranteed that you would see very many bears and the people were relatively negligible. The next place we went was in the upper Gallatin drainage that we accessed by an Indian Creek trail in the northwest part of the park. We walked 10 miles in on June the 26th and camped at Bighorn Pass, very near a trail. There was some bear sign in the area and I can remember while setting up our little tents, our one tent we had I guess, near a cliff – I could imagine jumping over this little cliff if a bear was going to come along in middle of Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  6   �the night. I had put up a whole wall of shrubs so if a bear came messing around our tent we’d hear him scratching around through these broken pieces of wood and snags and that sort of thing. As it turned out in the morning, we got up at 6 o’clock, and before we’d had anything to eat I was out there looking over this upper Gallatin, we could see Gallatin Lake – the upper end of the watershed, and we could see grizzlies in the basin there. Elk were moving up the far slope, but we were so far we really couldn’t tell what was going on, and I guess I’d have to say I was a little impatient. The long and the short of it was we’d had a couple of hours of observation, took notes, which is in my field book that you’ll see. Then I suggested to Bruce that we take a long detour down the valley and up behind these bears and come up about 9,000 feet and be observing them on that side of the valley and be looking down at them. That’s where I ran into what I think was a female grizzly, about 10:30-11:00 in the morning. We’d hiked up this Spur Ridge, off Crow Foot Ridge – there was a little spur that came westerly – and as I came over the top of that ridge Bruce had stopped to relieve himself down the trail a bit and I told him that I would go ahead. I went up somewhat rapidly over the top of the mountain ridge so that the elk and whatever wouldn’t see me standing up there on the skyline. I think this bear had seen me coming, I hadn’t seen it. I suspect it thought I was attacking it. I was moving fast and then I dropped down – all of which to a bear means I’m launching myself at it. I looked up and this ferocious, big grizzly was coming at me about, seemed like 50 feet away. Just your basic nightmare: clawing and growling at the top of its voice, ears laid back in a full-out attack. I took one look at this and turned on my heel and ran the other way. [9:32] You can of course do all kinds of analysis after the fact on these things. There weren’t really any instructions that anybody that worked with bears had to tell you about how to deal with bears, and this was the first grizzly bear I’d ever come close to at all. So I was totally unprepared. The worst part of it being that the bear had seen me and launched on me before I’d seen it, so I didn’t even have a micro-second to get the wits to figure out a strategy. As I was moving away, it knocked me down and bit the back of my head and basically tore my scalp off from the back, trying to bite through my skull. I rolled over with the pain of that and tried to fight it off my head, but then it bit the side of my face off and I lost an eye and my cheekbone, etc. After that I was pretty much – I wasn’t unconscious, but I had been beaten up enough that I was immobile, I guess you’d say, and essentially bleeding to death. Bruce came along and saw this object standing where I’d been, or might have been and he let out a couple of vocalizations and for whatever reason the bear got off me and walked away. I interpret that the bear might’ve thought there was either a pack of us, or it had neutralized me and it wasn’t going to deal with any other intrusions. It may have had a cub down the mountain a bit. A biologist told me later that they saw bloody footprints going back off the mountain. The rest of the day was a rescue operation getting me back to a hospital. Luckily, we had a Motorola hand-held radio. One of the Park Service, they’d given us one for our backcountry work. I’ll foreshorten this part, but we were able to get a helicopter, which came in and they radioed – because the seriousness of my accident – they had a bunch of smokejumpers and medical packages dropped by parachute onto the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  7   �mountain. About four of those guys risked injury to come down and patch me up. They took me to Lake Hospital, and then to West Yellowstone, and then to Salt Lake City. Luckily, at Lake Hospital there were four surgeons that had rotated from the University of Utah Medical Center, and they’d been trained trauma surgeons. So they probably did a lot of stuff with hunks of skin that were falling off my face to both save the tissue, and save my life. Of course by the time I was in the clinic they could give me blood substitutes. Somewhere in my collection I have a bunch of pictures of the rescue, because the helicopter pilot had nothing to do while the EMT fellows were patching me up. So he used the rest of my film to document the rescue, which it was pretty interesting. Now I can show my students, and have on occasion, I don’t like to over-emphasize it. The Park Service was using those slides for their training films. Apparently it was a very successful rescue. In fact, Mary Marr, who was directing our project, had said it was probably the most faultless rescue that they had done. I did read in some papers after that, that they’d had an evaluation procedure and realized that they should give people that are new to the park a little bit better training in dealing with back country issues like bears. Those sort of things are always stated. I had no malice toward either the bear or to the Park Service. I didn’t even think of lawsuits or anything like that, as some people do, because I realized I’d tripped on the bear and the bear was just doing what grizzlies do. I was just paying the consequence. So after about 14 operations and some skin transplants from various parts of my body, I was back on campus in September. I spent my summer holidays in the hospital! “What did you do last summer?” “Oh, I had plastic surgery, how about you?!” [Laughing.] But it was a very unfortunate accident. I was about as close to dying as you can come. I suspect I realized that I was probably the first person in North American that had been savaged so by the teeth of a bear and had lived. Lots of trappers had been grabbed by bears, but if you don’t die from loss of blood, you die from infection within about three or four days after that. I almost died of infection. They pumped me so full of antibiotics that one of the doctors said they might deafen me, but they had to stop these infections. My temperature was going up 104, 105 every afternoon as my body had fought off all the garbage that comes out of a bear’s mouth. They found -- one of the infectious diseases team guys told me they found four species of proteus bacteria, which I don’t really know what they are, but I assume they come out of earth where bears dig and eat roots and things like that. They’d never seen them before so they really didn’t know what to hit them with, so they hit them with everything they had. Mostly keflics, keflin kinds of drugs and I became allergic to those, so I still can’t take those kind of antibiotics. But it was by and large successful. [15:25] Strange to say, I went back to study bears shortly thereafter. I got a notice of a contract in Katmai [National Park]. I should say Bruce Hastings immediately went off – they found an opportunity to study bears and people in Yosemite Park, and he did a successful Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  8   �masters looking at black bears coming in the campgrounds in Yosemite Park. So we were able to rescue his thesis in another park. BC: Do you think the bad event changed your outlook on your science or anything like that? BG: You know, I don’t recall it changing the questions I was asking. When the Katmai opportunity came along, I was writing a paper – sort of the synthesis of human-bear interactions – and then I realized really I didn’t know that much; nobody did. We needed to do more research. So I quit writing and started a research proposal to look at humans and bears on a salmon stream and the response of bears, focusing on two questions. Are there too many people on Brooks River, and are they keeping bears off the river and therefore the salmon? The second question was: are people getting so close there is going to be a serious injury and the park would be responsible for injuries to people? So that’s essentially what we looked at. In Alaska, as you might know, people tend to carry their Yellowstone and Glacier National Park experience and they can’t quite believe that people can get as close as they do to Alaskan bears. For whatever reason, bears on salmon streams seem to be much more tolerant and habituate readily to people. They essentially ignore people, and they are so focused on the salmon. Now it could be that they’re not as hungry as mountain bears, or they’re not as aggressive because they don’t have to be as territorial about their food. This is an area that really needs some research, I’m just speculating on possible causes. They might be almost speciating as a more social bear, as opposed to these more aggressive, territorial bears, as I would view them, in Yellowstone. The other unknown in bear behavior in Yellowstone is the degree to which they’ve been handled and shot at, that they may really have a serious dislike for humans. When you capture a bear in snares or covert traps, they get very upset and they smell humans since humans come along and dart them – and that’s a form of animal abuse, because you need to capture the animal and deal with it. The bear remembers that sort of thing. Whether they try to take it out on people, or react, they might have a short fuse when you or I are going down a trail in Yellowstone, and rush us before we get a chance to capture them. I don’t what goes through a bear’s mind of course. I suspect that the “no-effect” hypothesis is wrong. There’s got be some influence of that kind of capture. I know the bear that, if you like, counter-attacked me -- because in a way I attacked it first – I think it was a defensive attack back on me. It might have been captured in the past, who knows? You don’t know the history of these animals. So it might have been primed, either because it was a female and threatened by other male bears, or it had been captured. We just have no idea. I was too close to it, so it wasn’t surprising that it caught me and savaged me a bit. BC: Did you do more work for Yellowstone after that? BG: I never had any kinds of contracts to do bear work. I was, not long after that, asked to be on the blue ribbon panel of biologists to address the question of closures for fly fishing on some of the streams in Yellowstone Lake. They invited four or five of us. Fred Lindsay Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  9   �from Utah State was one of them, and I think he was the one that asked me if I would be a member to look at the effectiveness of these closures, both from the point of view of safety, and also to let the bears get access to the spawning cutthroat trout that go up all the streams, all the tributaries of Yellowstone Lake. I never, at that time grizzly management was so political and they had a team – the Inter-agency Grizzly Bear Study Team – was doing research in the park. I think two things were happening. They had research underway and they were capturing the bears, and they didn’t want anybody else outside of a ring of biologists, if you’d like, to be involved in grizzly studies. It was too political. It would have been a great time to continue some behavioral work because you have all these marked animals around, so individual identification would have been a great thing to do at the time. [20:54] My subsequent work focused on salmon streams. It is a great place to study behavior, as you know, because the bears are coming day after day and you can get to know 30 or 40 bears. You keep identification – photographs and sketches, and you mark where the scars are and which ears are torn and which aren’t. You can with 12 hour day observations with the same bears coming back, even identify them by their modus operandi and how they capture fish and where they capture them. So I had about, I think three students at Katmai who did work. It was a great place to do behavioral observations for the reasons I just stated. BC: How long did that project go for? BG: It started, I believe in the fall of ’83 I went up and did a reconnaissance visit late in the season to see what was needed and what could be done. Then over the winter I interviewed students to do the work. Ann Braaten was the first master’s student. She did her masters degree and then I had two other students. Tamara Olsen, who is managing now, and Scott Fipkin started but he never completed – he almost completed his master’s work. It was all related to bear habituation rates and impacts of numbers of people on bear behavior. That sort of thing. [22:30] BC: You mentioned political nature of grizzly bears. What are some of that – have you seen changes in how the federal government’s dealt with that over the years? BG: Yeah. You know the big questions were whether the bears were in a steep decline. You may remember that John and Frank Craighead had started their pioneering work with radio-collared bears in the park. About that time a new superintendent came in and the park went to what they called a “management natural population regulation” as the way that the animals – the elk, the deer, and the bears would be dealt with, which was pretty much a hands-off sort of thing. An international study team led by Dr. Ian McTaggartCowan at UBC looked at all the data to see whether there was a threat to the population and they recommended an independent study team. As it turned out, Richard Knight was Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  10   �chosen and he was an insider, if you like, a federal government researcher, former university professor, who took on all the grizzly work. The question was, “Are the bears going downhill? How many of them are being killed?” When they close the dump – and I don’t want to get too detailed here – but the issue between the Craigheads and Glen Cole was “what should be done when you close the dump?” The Craigheads believed from their long experience that if you close the dumps, the various dumps to grizzly bears, they will revert to the campgrounds because that’s where the most similar food is going to be. They don’t know what the natural foods are. Glen Cole, and I had talked to Glen Cole about this and he had actually asked me whether I thought the bears should be cutoff cold turkey from the dumps or whether the dumps should be phased out slowly. I made the mistake of saying, “if you want to end the problem I would recommend closing the dumps precipitously.” I think I was in error about that because I didn’t think about the fact that these grizzlies were totally reliant, at least the dump bears were reliant on that garbage. When they were prohibited from getting garbage they had no idea where the other foods were. They couldn’t go find fish, they wouldn’t find Whitebark pine seeds, all the various grizzly foods. They wouldn’t know where the best berry bushes were because they had never accessed them in the summer. They basically were a culture of bears that were living on garbage dumps. So, unbeknownst to anyone, the Park Service dealt with these, if you like, marauding bears but bad choice of word because they were just coming to the fresh garbage in people’s coolers instead of the stale garbage which was in the garbage dumps. It was the same food to them – this is my summary or interpretation, anyway. They came in fairly large numbers. We learned subsequently, it wasn’t until the ‘80s, that over 220 grizzly bears had been killed within about a three year period. I think in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. I think it was ’69, ’70, ’71, but don’t hold me to that. So here was a major problem. Two sides with different hypotheses and the Park Service never admitted that their hypothesis was wrong! Now you and I, maybe in the ivory tower, could sit here and say, “Well what should have been done?” We might have said, “Well, we don’t have the knowledge, let’s raise these two hypotheses and test what the bears are actually doing.” The bears would tell us, we could put a case of beer on it to make it serious about who’s right and who’s wrong, and find out that in fact the bears were coming into the campgrounds. Instead of shooting them they could’ve done something else – taken road kills and try to lure them away from campgrounds, or even feed them until they get back on finding some new foods. What happened was that the arguments were so contentious and it was going up the federal chain and was a major embarrassment for the Park Service. Everybody had an opinion, of course. The park got so defensive that they told the Craigheads that anything that they said to the press and anything they published had to be run through the park superintendent. Well, the reaction as I understand it by the Craigheads, was “Hell no, we won’t go that route, so we’re out of here. We can’t do research if we can’t talk about what we find.” And so the schism between the two parties was complete at that time. [28:05] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  11   �The inter-agency grizzly bear came in, the Park Service realized, along with other agencies (Forest Service, and whatever else) that were in that Yellowstone ecosystem, that they needed to know how many bears were there. So they started, I guess a three decade study, of collaring bears and doing population dynamic analysis. In other words, how many bears are there and what’s the trend? Are they going up, are they going down? The Craigheads at the time had been very adamant and had population models that showed the bears were on their way to extinction if mortality rates were continuing on. [28:50] So you can see from this that it wasn’t a place for somebody to come in and do some research. They were censoring people, they were refusing – Glacier has never allowed bears to be collared there; Yellowstone was because of political emphasis on losing the bears. A lot of people were very upset around the nation that the Park Service not only was killing bears, but they weren’t recording. None of this data showed up. They basically killed them and buried them. If you talk, I found at least one ranger who told me that he really didn’t want to talk about it to me, but he admitted that they had shot bears in middle of the night and basically dragged them over and threw them off cliffs and things like that, so nobody could discover them. He had heard rumors that people had found piles of bears here, but there was never any accounting. It was really a rather sordid example of bad wildlife management on which I would say the political aspects of it and censorship overcame the need to do good studies and find out what was really going on. I was actually quite happy not to be in the middle of that sort of thing! It wouldn’t be the place you would want to take graduate students and have somebody looking over your shoulder or refusing to let you do certain sort of things. We could have done behavioral studies, but it would have been in the context in with the confounding of all these other handling procedures. I think one of the reasons that Glen Cole once said to me, he said, “nobody on earth would have been allowed to come in and do research right now.” He said, “It’s too hot, it’s too political.” But I think what the sub-text was on that was that we got a lot of rangers that are shooting bears and we don’t want anybody to be looking at this, researchers from Utah State or anybody else. So they closed down research, and tried to “manage” if you like, but they managed by shooting bears because they were risky. They were risky because the Park Service had figured they’d go back into the woods and feed on grizzly foods, and they didn’t do anything of the kind! They came to where the people were and were in their face. You can’t let grizzly bear moms with two cubs walk along the series of tents sniffing whose got the chocolate bars, you know? It was a black eye for wildlife management, actually, during that period, and especially for Yellowstone. That’s the short history anyway! [31:36] BC: Would you say that the wildlife management in federal agencies has become more politicized in recent years, or has it gotten better? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  12   �BG: That’s a good question. I think for a while it was getting better because there seemed to be evidence that bears were increasing. I think now, people are estimating 500, 600 bears in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. But it’s still very contentious because it took a long while to get a good recovery plan, but there weren’t enough positive things – like closing roads in National Forest lands around Yellowstone. There was nothing artificial done to improve the food sources for the bears. In the ‘80s and ‘90s it became clear that some of the major foods – and this is contentious right now, and the Natural Resources Defense Fund is one of the leaders in trying to stop the b-listing of the grizzly bear. It has been b-listed, as you know, but they were against that and filed lawsuits because it appeared that with the loss of the Whitebark pine trees, through both rusts and beetle attacks, they were going to die – that food would be gone. The illegal introduction of lake trout in the Yellowstone Lake was decimating the Yellowstone cutthroat trout, the native cutthroat trout – so that was a concern and that was a major food for at least some bears that were feeding on trout in the streams. The elk were in somewhat of a decline, so people were worried about that. One segment bears were feeding on moths along the Absaroka on the east side in scree fields. This habit of bears to go up there and turn over and eat millions of insects was being driven by a pest in agricultural crops, and there was no guarantee that the spring wouldn’t get rid of them and they would no longer be in the mountains. If you look at it there were at least four foods, the Whitebark pine being the most important energy source for bears – it supported more bears and more calories than any other food, which is strange if you think about the size of a grizzly bear and the fact that it’s eating little tiny seeds. But the seeds were being brought together by the squirrels in middens and the bears could very effectively raid those and get a lot of calories. The Whitebark pine seeds are extremely rich in all the nutrients that a bear could need, especially fat. [34:30] Ron Laner a former professor of forestry and I brought some money together and did an analysis of Whitebark pine seeds. We found that they had all essential amino acids, they were 52% fat. If you and I were going on an extended camping trip and could only take one food, taking pine seeds would be a great food because we would survive well on them alone, as do Clark’s Nutcrackers and some other species too. To get back to the threats, what this prediction of both global climate disruption, or global warming, and the loss of these other foods, some of the advocacy groups, the wildlife grizzly advocacy groups felt it was not the time to take the protection away from the bear. They were concerned about the roads. The mortality rates remained relatively and nobody denies that. I think the numbers of bears have gone up. As you and I have gone to Yellowstone the last two or three weeks, it’s now possible to be almost guaranteed of seeing grizzly bear if you go to the right place. They’ve spread out more, they’re much more visible, they’re eating carcasses, especially in the springtime like now. It isn’t clear to me, or I think to any other scientist that looks at the data that necessarily the extent of the range, the increase in the range, doesn’t mean that there are more bears. It may mean that they are being distributed in a different way. Those questions need answers. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  13   �But biologists, to be fair to them, would say that the evidence is pretty clear that the numbers are up, and I would agree with them there. But are they up enough to have no threats to the genetic makeup of the bears, Yellowstone ecosystem is isolated from all of the other areas. The conservation biologists that are interested in bear survival would like to see enough bears in Yellowstone that they would start moving up to these other areas, like into Idaho, and connect eventually up through Glacier, and the reverse. So there would be more exchange. I think it’s more now an argument about not only do we need the minimum number to determine that they’re not threatened, but currently the set point, if you like, or the goal for grizzlies should be that they are recovered when their densities like they might have been in historical times (like through the 1700 and 1800s). We have a bit of an argument now between the minimalists, if you like, that are happy enough to have a minimum viable population (which is a jargon term) and therefore, that represents the grizzly in that ecosystem; versus the other people, who are I think more biologically oriented, who say, “No we want them there, if they’re recovered they’re there in large enough numbers feeding on natural foods.” [37:44] The whole sub-text of the Yellowstone system is that it’s high elevation, very cold most of the year, so it’s really not North America’s best it’s only the last of what’s left. So they will continue to be threatened unless there are numbers that occupy some of the lowland areas and maybe go out into the streams, or the watersheds, but if you start going down the Yellowstone you run into mega-development pretty quickly, as you do in Paradise Valley. It’s cattle country, it’s condominiums, it’s millionaire’s ranches and all those sorts of things. If Yellowstone had been designed ecologically, it would have included a lot more winter range to the north, as you know, around Gardiner [Montana] and going up toward Livingston [Montana], much of that area and up the Bear River – Bear Gulch to Jardine and some of those areas up above the Lamar [Wyoming] to the north and the Bear Tooth or Absaroka Range. A lot of that is winter range for elk and it would also be winter range for bears. They would be going up there to feed on elk. But that wasn’t included so we have much more of a conflict zone. Again, as you are aware, the bison are a source of conflict because of the so-called Brusolosis problem, which isn’t a problem. [Brucellosis is an infectious disease caused by contact with animals carrying bacteria called Brucella.] The politics drive that. They killed 1600 bison this winter, which inflamed a lot of people because it’s not biologically necessary. Some of these historical problems of not having a complete ecosystem are still visiting the wildlife and their survival in Yellowstone. BC: Sort of makes me curious, how do you prepare a young scientist to learn the scientific method and everything, but then they go to work for these agencies or whatever, to navigate all the politics? BG: Yeah, well that’s another great question. With my students, I like to give them a wellcircumscribed question or hypothesis to develop and keep them away from the politics, at least during their study, and understand what the process of good science is. So if I can get them to piggy-back, even if I’ve taken some money to do a management study, I get Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  14   �them to own another part of the research that’s more academic, if you like, and by that I mean just good science about the animal or animal-human interaction. Then they pick up, I don’t spend a lot time telling them, but they pick up the concept or reality that the science doesn’t drive the decision-making. So you have the science, then you have the management on top of it, and then what drives the management is often the politics of greed, or the politics of value differentials, or the politics of animal protection, livestock protection, people’s fear of grizzlies, all these sorts of things. That’s the battle ground, and I don’t know that you can teach much about it. I mean you can teach good political science, you can teach people to know how to study human attitudes. I guess I’m a bit of a purist and I try to guide the students to do the best science and don’t become anthropocentric. In other words, don’t try to work toward a world where people get everything they want and the animals take the hindermost. My view is that if my students don’t understand the vast ecology and the most complex interaction between animals and people and the ecosystems that support us all, we’ll lose our way. Get the science right, as with spotted owls, or with sage grouse or whatever, find the causes and I tell them to hopefully to have the courage without being fired to call a spade a spade. If the sheep are wiping out the habitat for the sage grouse, which I believe they are, the livestock, they have to come up with that. They can’t cover it over and call it bad range management, or historical problems, or something like that. If you’re going to save the owl, or as we learned with Clinton administration, save the sage grouse you have to back it up with some of the impacts. It’s a tough world for ecologists because they keep asking for things that seem to be idealistic. The public, in my view, is asking people like me, who get paid by them in the state of Utah, to come up with ways to save some of these animals because we’ve obliterated them in 99% of the landscape. [42:46] If you look at grizzly bears, or wolverines or wolves, and I don’t know how a person could say, “Well, there’s no room for wolves, we need all that land.” Well that means you’re basically on your way to turning North American into a great big sprawling metropolis, with no wilderness left. I don’t think anybody wants that. But if you don’t have some goals and visions, that’s what you end up with. So it comes back in a lot of ways to too many people in too many places wanting to have a lifestyle. But we’ll save that soapbox for another day. [Laughing] BC: A couple of questions, because projects sort of couched a little bit around Logan Canyon. Did you do any research at all in Logan Canyon? BG: You know I never have done anything with students. Most of my work has been outside of Utah. I have never had contracts with the Division of Wildlife Resources. When they started bear work they went to BYU, and I don’t know if that was personal connections. It rather angered me for a while that we were the state land-grant university and it was state money and it was going to a private university. I sense that I am a little bit too much of an independent radical and I wouldn’t say what they wanted me to say or necessarily Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  15   �do it the way they wanted it to do, so I feel like I was left out – which suited me fine. I once said to somebody, “I think we in Utah at the university should go to Idaho and do the studies, and the people from the Idaho universities should come to Utah!” [Laughing] And then we wouldn’t run afoul of our legislators. Because, Brad, you know, it doesn’t take much – you can find some literature in your archives where the wool growers and the cattlemen have threatened this college that we’re sitting in here. I’ve seen statements to the effect that “gee, we see that you guys have asked for a budget for a new building. Well, if you think you’re going to get a new building and still keep that guy Bern [Bernard] Shanks, who’s taken on the sagebrush rebellion…” They’re basically saying “Fire that sucker or you won’t get your building.” Bern Shanks did not get tenure, and nobody’s ever explained why it was. He was an excellent teacher and he’s won awards for being a teacher. Whether or not the dean gave him the door or not, we got a lot of political pressure because of positions and defense of public land – it was all a public land issue. It’s not easy trying to represent wild lands. [See also: USU University Archives: 3.1/12-2: Box 11 fd.8: Sagebrush Rebellion] You know the status that wilderness has. People on the right side of things, the rightwingers, view it as an elite useless aspect of land. In fact, I read something the other day from a Montana writer, Bill Schneider, said that wilderness is more a multiple-use than any other use. Mining and cattle are all single-uses that are providing profits for private entities, using public lands. So, you can get into that whole argument too. BC: Because you’ve had experience in Canada and the United States does it differ between the two countries? BG: It differs a lot, yeah. I very much favor the American government in terms of the laws. When you look at the Endangered Species Act, which was passed during Richard Nixon’s term, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act were re-established I think, and NEPA came in under those terms. Those are very powerful legal tools that can be used to meet the vision that the legislators, federal legislators – senators, congressman – put forward that brought those bills forward. And in contrast, in Canada, it’s very much a discretionary function and the public doesn’t have strong laws. There is no Endangered Species Act in Canada. People have been pushing for it, but it’s never occurred. And when they did get one in Ontario, they had to fight to get things like critical habitat. If an animal without a habitat to survive in is not a favorable outcome. [47:29] U.S. set some precedents, I think, worldwide in the kinds of laws that they’ve come up with. Mind you, the industrial might in this country is tearing up a lot of land right now for oil and gas development; whether those laws are going to stand by us – who knows? But we have the tools; all we lack is the will to continue to use them. I think the people are getting behind groups like Environmental Defense and NRDC [Natural Resources Defense Council]. It’s an unfortunate reality that the public has to spend their money to get the advocacy groups – the big groups like NRDC – to sue people like EPA which are Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  16   �being paid to protect our resources, but aren’t doing it because of political pressures. We have the government in Washington, as you know, that’s dominated by corporate lobbyists – I don’t know there are some 20,000 lobbyists trying to get what they want from our legislators! [Laughing] This is a poor man’s democracy in my view! It’s not the reason I’m moving to Canada. I guess maybe I’m looking for a challenge going to Canada and fighting. It’s pretty much the same in both places. The United States has a lot of well-educated people and has very good ecological and fish and wildlife universities. That’s why so many Canadians come to colleges in natural resources down here. I think both to go to school and to teach. BC: What’s the future of the natural resources profession – I know in the ‘70s it seemed like it kind of boomed and it dipped, and is it coming back or is it --? BG: That’s a tough one. I guess I’m an optimist to say that I see resurgence in the future. Partly because the corporate dominance is getting through to people in a very large way, including Republicans that really dislike giveaways to rich corporations. And I think the global climate disturbance is so all-encompassing that people are seriously threatened by the whole thing. And there are tons of other indicators, like the decline of fisheries around the world, we’re losing all our large pelagic or open-ocean fish like the blue marlin, white marlin, sail fin, the tunas – the big tunas, swordfish. These are all on their way to extinction and to me that is quite tragic. I worked on swordfishing boats when I was an undergraduate in 1959, as I mentioned, and we were getting fish that weighed 600 and 700 pounds. You’ll never see those again. They’re just not allowed to grow that large, where they catch them around the 40 to 60 pound range. That is a recipe for extinction. People like Carl Safina in Long Island – he’s got a successful advocacy group for marine species and trying very hard to save them before they disappear because once gone, it’s gone forever. But I’m hopeful. I think if we get a change in government and we can get away from the rabid materialism in this country we might have a chance. It’s all driven by oil and gas and it’s kind of scary. It makes you want to buy a bicycle! [Laughing] [51:06] BC: Well I’ll kind of maybe end up for today’s session and I always like to ask if you could’ve changed anything about your life would you have? BG: I think I would’ve taken on and done research in more areas. I look back and I sense that I was a little too reticent, lacking courage to tackle some questions that as I look back I was right, but I didn’t have the confidence. It’s a strange thing to say, but I guess it’s part of my personality that I edge my way into these things to see whether there’s enough success going to be there, and I should’ve just said, “hell with it, I’ll take a chance!” Because research, when it’s done right is new knowledge and you have to be willing to fail. You have these mental images, which we call “ideas” about what could be. And I’ve had a couple of instances where I had a hunch and I never followed it up and it turned out I was right but I was left behind because somebody else did follow up. I think it’s maybe Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  17   �a lesson when you’re working with students to follow your hunches and take some chances. There isn’t much about my career, if anything, I would’ve changed. I look back and feel like I’ve experienced the greatest parts of North American and East Africa and the Caribbean that I’ve gone to with, I’ve had really great students who have been enthusiastic, both at the undergraduate and graduate level. And, how could you not, if you love wilderness and love the outdoors and you’re a bio-philiac as E.O. Wilson says people that love animals. I’ve worked with dolphins; I’ve worked with swordfish like I’ve said, pronghorn, deer, rhinoceros, elephant seals, bears – polar bears, black bears. It’s been a great life. BC: Alright. One more question: do you have any spiritual connection to the natural world? [53:39] BG: Only, I guess in a sense of wonder. I don’t have any religious connection. I don’t feel like I’m doing God’s work on earth saving critters. I’m actually quite a rabid atheist when it gets down to it because I think organized religions do a lot of mischief and are very misguided. As I said to someone, “why would carry ideas, Paleolithic ideas in the 20th century? Why don’t we invent a couple of new religions that are more in tune with ecological thinking?” But I don’t think I’ll start a new religion. But I do, I’ve got to admit I have a sense, I think from childhood, and maybe we all do this, I’m not peculiar, that there is a certain sacredness in our respect to the natural world. And we tear it apart rather willy-nilly for very mediocre reasons, I think. I think it’s very easy for us to get carried away with comfort, oh, materialistic things: cars that are too big and houses that are too big and appetites that are too big – all of which lead us downhill. Someone I was reading the other day said that if we could convert to more poetry and art and spirituality and history, and forget so much the comforts and add-ons, we would probably have a richer mental life. I guess I buy in – I don’t guess, I know I do – I buy in with the Bob Marshalls of this world in terms of wanting to save some wilderness. A lot of people love dinosaurs, and maybe they’d like to have a land with dinosaurs, but our grizzly bears and our big fish are our dinosaurs and we ought to save them so people in the future – whether they’re our grandchildren or just other folks can have some of these experiences as well. BC: That’s great. Anything else you would like to add? BG: I think I’ve already talked too much! BC: Alright. BG: I appreciate the opportunity. BC: That’s great. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  Barrie Gilbert Interview     Page  18   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/115">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/115</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2012-08-22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Barrie Gilbert interview, 21 May 2008, and transcription Description An account of the resource The interview contains a brief description of Barrie Gilbert's childhood and details of his schooling and subsequent career in wildlife management. It includes his story of being attacked by a grizzly bear, his attitudes on wildlife management in both the U.S. and Canada, and the political pressures he and others face(d) in doing research in wildlife management and in management policies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Barrie K., 1937- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cole, Bradford R. Subject The topic of the resource Gilbert, Barrie K., 1937---Interviews Gilbert, Barrie K., 1937---Childhood and youth Utah State University. Dept. of Natural Resources--Faculty--Interviews Kingston (Ont. : Township) Professional education--Ontario--Kingston (Township) Animal behavior--Study and teaching Animal behavior--Research Yellowstone National Park Human-bear encounters--Research Bear attacks--Yellowstone National Park Katmai National Park and Preserve (Alaska)--Research Bear hunting Wildlife management Bears--Research--Yellowstone National Park Ecology Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral histories Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Kingston (Ontario) Ontario Lake (New York) Yellowstone National Park Katmai National Park and Preserve (Alaska) Alaska United States Logan (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd7BarrieGilbert Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 21 May 2008 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2008-05-21 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/3062be1af3e469c9f3d5148b0fed7e22.jpg 42e556204191a8570396c195331be375 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/120">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/120</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Dam Reservoir at the mouth of Logan Canyon, Utah, looking southeast, 1920s Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Views. 1920's. First Dam Reservoir looking southeast. Black and white photograph (6 x 8 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Logan River First Dam (Utah)--Photographs Reservoirs--Utah--Logan--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan River (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3150 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3150 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/f2f560f347ce37ab9db8836b77507585.jpg 5635393ea7110fb0460d1cda8c5b6816 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/121">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/121</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Unidentified group at Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1920s-1930s Description An account of the resource Jardine Juniper tree, Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Jardine Juniper (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2820a Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2820a Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920s-1930s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/04782e3440c928192dc721caaea4af6d.jpg 942de39bb3b2cc560c378a537a76f55e Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/122">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/122</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 wading at Tony Grove and White Pine Lakes, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 wading at Tony Grove and White Pine Lakes. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4.5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Tony Grove (Utah)--Photographs White Pine Lake (Cache County, Utah) Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Tony Grove (Utah) White Pine Lake (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 1:41:03 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P036414103 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1915-1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/a6942d70a56831a22a94b9214e810eef.jpg 27e2cf85c4717ad44c5fab4f3addf17b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/123">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/123</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Relief valve in Utah Power and Light Company flume in Logan Canyon, Utah, 1923-1924 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Relief Valve in Utah Power and Light Company flume, 1923-1924. Original Negatives: Logan City Engineer. Black and white photograph (3 x 5.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Diversion structures (Hydraulic engineering)--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Electric power-plants--Piping--Valves--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Flumes--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-0600a Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A0600a Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1923-1924 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1923 1924 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/724e86bc07116b7b835c82ccf9d2a750.jpg d257e270f167f3e9cb43b2095872fb29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/124">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/124</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Klondike Mill on Beaver Creek up Logan Canyon, Utah, ca. 1901 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Sawmills, ca. 1901. Klondike Mill on Beaver Creek, operated by J.A. Montrose. Mill was adjacent to site of Beaver Mountain Ski Resort. Black and white photograph (7.5 x 9.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Sawmills--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Klondike Mill (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Beaver Mountain (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3008 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3008 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1901 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-15 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/bd9774ff68794608ba24eed30e774bcf.jpg fd39adb2160635726209a6a68c5da8ed Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/125">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/125</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Two unidentified men standing in branches of Old Jardine Juniper tree, Logan Canyon, ca. 1925 Description An account of the resource Two unidentified men standing in branches of Old Jardine Juniper tree, Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and white photograph (9 x 14 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Jardine Juniper (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers Photograph Collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:03 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers Photograph Collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P032450103 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/05b88504c9c03db470feef28dd545e39.jpg 27be7936b4f986885ad00994c8ce1387 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/126">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/126</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a hike in Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 (2 of 3) Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a hike probably in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Hiking--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 1:07 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03640107 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/4d18283d42296537f7028b350cbd8e13.jpg 413035e4bd8a8e70d4ab0df3c53116a5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/127">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/127</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Water power sawmill devised and operated by Mr. and Mrs. Hans H. Hansen, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1900 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Sawmills, 1900. Water power sawmill devised and operated by Mr. and Mrs. Hans H. Hansen. Black and white photograph (5.5 x 7.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Sawmills--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2639a Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2639a Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1900 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-14 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/5507ad12d5345a06560309396f2104ac.jpg f9a87dafd2ee406befb536025bdc4543 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/128">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/128</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cattle grazing in Franklin Basin up Logan Canyon, Utah, 1930's Description An account of the resource Cattle grazing in Franklin Basin, 1930's. Black and white photograph (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Arthur D. (Arthur Dwight), 1907- Subject The topic of the resource Cattle--Utah--Franklin Basin--Photographs Franklin Basin (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Franklin Basin (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection, 1917-1955, P0021 1:15:20 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv28894">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv28894</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection, 1917-1955, P0021 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0002111520 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1930s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0cbde6f2cdb563db3c7e1f1833be2999.jpg e53638d8b8fac4f318c835ab8a69ac62 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/129">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/129</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hercules Hydro-Power Plant at mouth of Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1895 and 1905 (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Hercules Hydro-Power Plant at mouth of Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Napper family Subject The topic of the resource Hercules Power Plant (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Hydroelectric power plants--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Napper family photograph collection, 1895-1905, P0359 1:03:02 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Napper family photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34826">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34826</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Napper family photograph collection, 1895-1905, P0359 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P035910302 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1895 and 1905 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/2bff725a1ae5cfefaa7d99a33892d951.jpg 4bd2c16a2c40d3dc2d69159d7b6d6e43 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/130">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/130</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cattle in Logan Canyon, Utah Description An account of the resource Cattle. Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (3 x 4.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Cattle--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3029c Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3029c Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1940-1980 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/6ea11b1e4909bdf966c4fba52a05b718.jpg 214ccb33dbf52af7aba211abb4e8977f Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/131">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/131</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Group of horseback riders at White Pine Basin, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1910 and 1920 Description An account of the resource Group of horseback riders at White Pine Basin, Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Crookston, Newell J., 1890-1976 Subject The topic of the resource White Pine Basin (Cache County, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 1:036 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv9026">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv90267</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P013010736 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1910-1920 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d6d8ab5ac3f76cd5e5bc191a0587d61f.jpg 894f3026a4a3007ed8a5d321be17aa04 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/132">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/132</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of Logan Canyon, Utah, ca. 1978 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. ca. 1978, Black and white photograph (6 x 8 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Landscape photography--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2343 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2343 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1978 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-05-31 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/f58e1a5e3b8f22b7f0870a3e8c02bda3.jpg 01beaf879f378ebeb892fbbd0bcbe3ad Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/133">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/133</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1920 and 1960 Description An account of the resource Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and White photograph (2 x 3 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel, Theodore W. Subject The topic of the resource Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Jardine Juniper (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Ted W. Daniel Photograph Collection, 1892-1997, P0373 03:08:01 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Ted W. Daniel photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv25793">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv25793</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ted W. Daniel Photograph Collection, 1892-1997, P0373 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P037322304bw Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920-1960 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/cc0c313a66214416a8bae9d02638acc0.jpg 0c2516709fc40ccb6359790f82f040a7 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/134">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/134</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a winter hike in Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a winter hike probably in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Hiking--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 12:04 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03641204 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d6289430216f8a2ca03f52929a02db5b.jpg df7f2fe70c67665f3a0201b79f138abf Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/135">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/135</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho, looking toward the East Description An account of the resource View of Bear Lake, looking toward the East. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Israelsen, Orson Winso, 1887-1968 Subject The topic of the resource Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs, 1900-1960, P0358 1:15:14 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03680">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03680</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Orson Winso Israelsen irrigation photographs, 1900-1960, P0358 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0358 1:15:14 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1930s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/5919b255544a30eb6a5f6de7b64e7c84.jpg 8a86496e0f693c202c0b6c66ab2cf356 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/136">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/136</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Unidentified group measuring the Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, ca. 1925 Description An account of the resource Group measuring the Jardine Juniper in Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and white photograph (8 x 10 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Culmsee, Carlton, 1904- Subject The topic of the resource Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Jardine Juniper (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Carlton Fordis Culmsee Photograph Collection, 1895-1990, P0128 1:07:02 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Carlton Fordis Culmsee Photograph Collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv13189">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv13189</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Carlton Fordis Culmsee Photograph Collection, 1895-1990 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P012810702 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d83fe25d0c9bf71a4200609ff6deb27b.jpg e3577f403d62eee5f6a01f3ebf4b076c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/137">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/137</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White Pine Creek, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1910 and 1920 Description An account of the resource White Pine Creek. Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in)' Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Crookston, Newell J., 1890-1976 Subject The topic of the resource White Pine Creek (Cache County, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. White Pine Creek (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 1:033 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv9026">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv90267</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P013010733 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1910-1920 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/0b0c01dfa33688a2d533d028cfbad33e.jpg ad41e90a61a9abd5bd06b15def7a5265 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/138">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/138</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of the Logan River up Logan Canyon, Utah Description An account of the resource Logan River and riverbank up Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (10 x 13 in) mounted on board Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Logan River (Utah)--Photographs Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan River (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1860-1869 1870-1879 1880-1889 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:01:17 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P032450117 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1865-1993 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/40b81866507d730819ed1b1f5f03b358.jpg babbcbc1d3180f5be3fe09941359115a Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/139">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/139</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tony Grove Lake, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1865 and 1993, 1 of 2 Description An account of the resource Tony Grover Lake, Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (10 x 14 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Tony Grove Lake (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Tony Grove Lake (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1860-1869 1870-1879 1880-1889 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers Photograph Collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:28 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers Photograph Collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P032450128 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1865 and 1993 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/6ccc38a541f07c53349f46277273077f.jpg d6da2eeea87ebb660b621847c61be4c8 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/140">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/140</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Head of Tony Grove Creek, April 12, 1926 Description An account of the resource Head of Tony Grove Creek, April 12, 1926. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clyde, George D. Subject The topic of the resource Tony Grove Creek (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Tony Grove Lake (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, George Dewey Clyde Photograph Collection, 1920-1967, P0374 05:220 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the George Dewey Clyde photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv41268">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv41268</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. George Dewey Clyde Photograph Collection, 1920-1967, P0374 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0374501220 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. April 12, 1926 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1926-04-12 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/58ffdec57b18ecb1141a2e017c166792.jpg 6156f1641d953e041d374f2482fc4652 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/141">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/141</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hercules Power Plant in Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1890 and 1910 (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Enlargement of a photo showing the Herculesa power plant in Logan canyon, between 1890 and 1910. Black and white photograph (10 x 14 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Hercules Power Plant (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Hydroelectric power plants--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Logan River (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:46 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03240546 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1890 and 1910 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/8cc556c84395e047389043fa09b4192a.jpg 554f709a287b9d21f91ba86e518f99e0 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/142">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/142</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of Logan Canyon from the Utah State University campus, Utah Description An account of the resource View of Logan Canyon from USU Campus. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cooley, I. LaVell, 1901- Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Mountains--Utah--Logan--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, LaVell Cooley photograph collection, 1920-1985, P0101 4:01:07 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the LaVell Cooley photograph collection, 1920-1985 can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv30639">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv30639</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. LaVell Cooley photograph collection, 1920-1985 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P010140107 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920-1985 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/18904e7920aca9fa7d5be520ac5a23df.jpg a1c0dce13539cf15cb7e2008b728f008 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/143">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/143</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a hike in Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 (3 of 3) Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 hiking probably in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4 in). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Hiking--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 43:08 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03644308 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/f568e7093c372b695cc3a2445bf6bc54.jpg 01175937d66e31bb73c4bdeca14807de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/144">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/144</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tony Grove Lake, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1940 and 1995 Description An account of the resource Tony Grove Lake, Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (8 x 10 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ellsworth, S. George (Samuel George), 1916- Subject The topic of the resource Tony Grove Lake (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Tony Grove Lake (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, S. George Ellsworth Photograph Collection, P0025 1:03:01 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the S. George Ellsworth Photograph Collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv10845">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv10845</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. S. George Ellsworth Photograph Collection, P0025 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P002510301 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1940-1995 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/114953c298918ab459d2e38054d5e94b.jpg d7a455b6a854d6b856c81cc7bcdd6ec5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/145">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/145</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lodge at Camp Lomia, summer home of the Boy Scouts, Logan Canyon, Utah (1 of 2) Description An account of the resource Cache National Forest, Boy Scout Summer Home (Camp Lomia), Logan Canyon, Right-Hand Fork. Black and white photograph (4 x 6 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Forest Service. Intermountain Region Subject The topic of the resource Camp Lomia (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Camp buildings--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Camp Lomia (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, US Forest Service Photograph Collection, P0378 1:01:18 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the US Forest Service Photograph Collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv38040">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv38040</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. US Forest Service Photograph Collection, P0378 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P037810118 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1922 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-04-05 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/29878fb36048905fb37911a8f4cca67c.jpg 70dae15054fc8e993b9d3ffde348fe64 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/146">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/146</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Members of Logan Scout Troop 5 standing on a trestle bridge in Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925 Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Trestles--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 13:04 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03641304 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/6949bb4f7c9ed3f97c4f5b64a6788247.jpg efab43376ff3741acc73ded12975b3f9 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/147">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/147</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Camping. Tent, car, wagon, two men , next to Logan River in Logan Canyon, Utah Description An account of the resource Camping. Tent, car, wagon, two men, next to Logan River. Black and white negative (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 06:25 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03240625 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1920s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c4c26f7154a62776f62d4a46b8e2e669.jpg efb595554a50203febc1aa5ed30cab4d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/148">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/148</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Second Dam up Logan Canyon, Utah, ca. 1915 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Second Dam, ca. 1915. Photo by Peter Larsen. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) mounted on board Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Larsen, Peter Subject The topic of the resource Logan River Second Dam (Utah)--Photographs Dams--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan River Second Dam (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2889 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2889 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. ca. 1915 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/d67371d442be4ad0e4d21c86c7f46050.jpg dd1cc5e625009201af5ca6012ff35c4a Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/149">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/149</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Power plant structures in Logan Canyon, Utah, 1915 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon. Power plant structures, 1915. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Power-plants--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3277b Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3277b Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1915 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/c317ab08a8c115efecf74f3396117b00.jpg 5f159a45210e198edebb6d0924657cb5 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/150">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/150</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource On the Ridge, Logan Canyon, Utah, July 8, 1913 Description An account of the resource On the Ridge. Logan Canyon, Utah. July 8, 1913. Black and white photograph (3 x 5.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Landscape photography--Utah--Logan Canyon Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3293a Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3293a Date Created Date of creation of the resource. July 8, 1913 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1913-07-08 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/a285212164092ff1726f89d97161e548.jpg f18d6b75a259e89859c2e2e7a9e03b1c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/151">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/151</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lodge at Camp Lomia, summer home of the Boy Scouts, Logan Canyon, Utah (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Cache National Forest, Lodge at Camp Lomia, Logan Canyon, Right-Hand Fork. Nov. 10 1922. Black and white photograph (4 x 6 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Forest Service. Intermountain Region Subject The topic of the resource Camp Lomia (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Camp buildings--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Camp Lomia (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, US Forest Service Photograph Collection, P0378 01:01:24 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the US Forest Service Photograph Collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv38040">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv38040</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. US Forest Service Photograph Collection, P0378 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P037810124 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. Nov. 10 1922 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1922-11-10 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/fcac1213c6ab856c3fb9feb791bb51a3.jpg e974084406b430d15f0e18513d80ce7f Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/152">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/152</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring Hollow and reservoir at Third Dam looking south from Highway 89/91, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1960s Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Scenes 1960s. Spring Hollow looking south from Highway 89. Herald Journal. Black and white photograph (6 x 8 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Spring Hollow (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Third Dam (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs Reservoirs--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Spring Hollow (Utah) Third Dam (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1960-1969 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-2344 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2344 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1960s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/22411de4b946773ca44cee320c3bae5b.jpg bb8c12d87ae315f192da0fb9f7649ddc Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/153">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/153</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a dock at Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho, where a boat called Columbia is moored, between 1915 and 1925 Description An account of the resource Logan Scout Troop 5 on a dock at Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho, where a boat called Columbia is moored. Black and white photograph (2.5 x 4 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah) Subject The topic of the resource Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Boats and boating--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Logan Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Plain City (Utah) Randolf (Utah) Woodruff (Utah) Temple Fork (Utah) White Pine Lake (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1910-1919 1920-1929 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 43:04 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03644304 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1915 and 1925 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/04705c7695d5631d94491798ebce05b1.jpg d0950ecb19faafe716af21eab845fb10 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/154">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/154</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Peter Peterson family from Petersboro camping up Logan Canyon, Utah, July 1908 Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Camping, 1908. Peter Peterson Family from Petersboro camping. July 1908. Note tent and poles. Photo by W.L. Peterson. Black and white photograph (6 x 10 in) mounted on board Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Peterson, W.L. Subject The topic of the resource Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Peterson, Peter--Family--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3772 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A3772 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. July 1908 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-03-22 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/a9d7387b1a56359517c8319cd0e27edd.jpg b2489754e1482bc844f1d0046a8f0f62 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/155">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/155</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource View of Bear Lake and Garden City, Utah from Logan Canyon Road,1930s Description An account of the resource Bear Lake. Views. 1930s. View of Bear Lake and Garden City, Utah from Logan Canyon Road. Black and white photograph (7.5 x 9.5 in) mounted on board Subject The topic of the resource Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Bear Lake County (Idaho) Cache County (Utah) Idaho Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A2532 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Historical Photoboard Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context A2532 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1930s Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/3de6672309382a89560e88098d318782.jpg 0dae9ece39f3eb2a9533b32d447b78f4 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/156">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/156</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Large rock formation along river in Logan Canyon, Utah Description An account of the resource Logan Canyon, Utah. Large rock formation along river in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (12 x 17 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Logan River (Utah)--Photographs Rocks--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1890-1899 19th century 1900-1909 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:01:19 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P032450119 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. between 1890 and 1940 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/76d6790bea95e3701b626d080c2ea513.jpg b9f6ace8d4f00f8975cb87d3fde2d460 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/157">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/157</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Camping. Man next to tent under a "hanging rock" in Logan Canyon, Utah (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Camping. Man next to tent under "hanging rock" in Logan Canyon. Black and white negative (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Somers, Ray, 1917- Subject The topic of the resource Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1900-1909 1910-1919 1920-1929 1930-1939 1940-1949 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 06:34 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P03240634 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1900-1945 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/f41d0e63c5d2e28032518fe7de7fc293.jpg 5ccf8b5e66001a2c6a0a700cd559adf2 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/158">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/158</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi) display file is JPEG2000 Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2011-11-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Card Canyon study area in Logan Canyon, Utah, 1950 (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Views in the Card Canyon study area, 1950. Black and white photograph (4 x 5 in) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Arthur D. (Arthur Dwight), 1907- Subject The topic of the resource Card Canyon (Utah)--Photographs Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Black and white photographs Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Card Canyon (Utah) Logan Canyon (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1950-1959 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection, 1917-1955, P0021 1:08:31 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv28894">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv28894</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Arthur D. Smith range management photograph collection, 1917-1955, P0021 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image StillImage Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context P0002110831 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1950 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 1905-05-03 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections