13
50
1396
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/c0769aa051543eaac1fd77af5afdeeb5.jpg
4cd15283caf9cf22d1d03270701db46d
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
2332
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
2997
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8 inches x 10 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2332
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
2997
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1258596 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2/27/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Historic Photograph of the Thistle Townsite
Description
An account of the resource
An image from a collection that documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/12/1983
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 1, Folder 45
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229001045_ThistleHistoricTown.jpg
Buildings
Railroads
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/1734ff2b7229d45346b3c374141f725d.jpg
bd4ea3f3ac034a66bf98f42563c3bdf5
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2820
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3556
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1351372 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi); display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-09-10
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holiday Inn road sign in Davis County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
Davis County (Utah)
United States Highway 89
Roads--Signs
Advertising
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-12-13
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 358.44 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Davis County (Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 14.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959002014_HolidayInn.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/9658fc1046b38f122b81c65675c83769.jpg
6d0418f9677151c0d4ef585399e8591e
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Salt Lake County Archives
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Salt Lake County Archives using Epson GT-15000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Display file is JPG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies or scans of this item, please contact Salt Lake County Archives at: http://admin.slco.org/archives/resFees.aspx
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holland Furnace Company at 666 South State Street in Salt Lake City, UT.
Description
An account of the resource
Holland Furnace Company at 666 South State Street, built in 1926. Image taken on December 3, 1936.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Salt Lake County (Utah). Assessor's Office
Subject
The topic of the resource
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)--History
Tax Assessment-Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1936-12-03
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Salt Lake County (Utah)
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Salt Lake County Archives, Tax Appraisal Cards and Photographs Collection.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://admin.slco.org/archives/resPHtaxAppraisalCards.aspx
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Salt Lake County Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No copyright is held. Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is permissible.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SLCO_1-856.jpg
Highway 89
Stores & Shops
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/27d60082b72af7f33c99cf09a75404f9.jpg
ee0e033ed8c0a773fed552ae2dc3c855
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Salt Lake County Archives
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Salt Lake County Archives using Epson GT-15000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Display file is JPG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies or scans of this item, please contact Salt Lake County Archives at: http://admin.slco.org/archives/resFees.aspx
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holland Furniture at 360-368 South State Street in Salt Lake City, UT.
Description
An account of the resource
Holland Furniture at 360-368 South State Street, built in 1913. Image taken on December 22, 1939.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Salt Lake County (Utah). Assessor's Office
Subject
The topic of the resource
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)--History
Tax Assessment-Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/22/1939
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Salt Lake County (Utah)
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Salt Lake County Archives, Tax Appraisal Cards and Photographs Collection.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://admin.slco.org/archives/resPHtaxAppraisalCards.aspx
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Salt Lake County Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No copyright is held. Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is permissible.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SLCO_1-1947
Furniture Stores
Highway 89
Stores & Shops
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/002e1b75bcad0d6da7a2dc2e7b4f612a.pdf
1d19cf63268fadc4fef8d6710015baf4
PDF Text
Text
_
l~:ff~l:lI"
_
Engineers
Planners
Economists
Scientists
July 25, 1986
B21163.DO
Utah
John
4570
Bear
Legislative Delegation
Holmgren
W. 5400 N.
River City, Utah 84301
The Utah Depar t ment of Transportation (UDOT) has contracted
with CH2M HILL to conduct a study of Highway 89 through
Logan Canyon. An important part of this work is a public
involvement program to inform interested groups and individuals about the study and to obtain citizen input. Your
name has been included on our mailing list to receive information.
Enclosed is a copy of our first publication, a study introduction.
This is intended to explain what the study will
entail, why it is being done, and the schedule. The public
involvement plan is also described. Please review this and
pass it on to others who may be interested.
In the future you will receive similar publications and
meeting notices regarding the study. Questions concerning
the study are encouraged and should be direc t ed to me or
Sheldon Barker at CH2M HILL in Salt Lake City (801) 363-0200
or to Gale Larson at Valley Engineering, Inc. in Logan (801)
753-0153.
Thank you for your interest and participation.
~e~
Stanton S. Nuffer
Project Manager
SLC79/d.401
Enclosures
CH2M HILL
Intermountain Region
Boise 700 Clearwater Lane, P.o. Box 8748, Boise, Idaho 83707
Salt Lake City Associated Plaza, Suite 500, 349 South 200 East
P.o. Box 2218, Salt Lake City, Utah 84101
208.345.5310
801 .363.0200
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/45">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/45</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000.
Checksum
2931222100
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
576226 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holmgren correspondence on the Highway 89 study
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from Stanton S. Nuffer to John Holmgren of the Utah Legislative Delegation detailing the intent of the study by CH2M HILL and the Utah Department of Transportation on Highway 89 through Logan Canyon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nuffer, Stanton S.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States Highway 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
CH2M HILL
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1986-07-25
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bear River City (Utah)
Utah
United States
Box Elder County (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-1989
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 133 Box 10 Folder 6
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv07669">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv07669</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS133Bx10_Item_2.pdf
Highway 89;
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/221c4ac558a1e220dd7cb2af63ffe2c4.jpg
490b30cd9240c7c9cf286b9476756cff
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2643
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3939
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1125995 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
5/15/14
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Homes and Downed Power Line at Thistle on December 31, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/31/83
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 3, Folder 48, Photo 83267-72.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229003048_83267-72_ThistleHomesandPowerLine.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/e9750dff06aac74b4138c15dce2e5e68.jpg
82dbdad3334cc2c893980d2ef39b15de
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2255
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
2958
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
670444 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/18/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hoovers Truck Stop road sign in Piute County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Piute County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Piute County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
5/3/1967
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 124.7 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Piute County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 5.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959005005_176_Hoovers.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/f50268c577f8873cb3ac0741a31aaab3.jpg
d8dd054f16f88e5984c92249b2a6bfcc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horizon Lodge
Description
An account of the resource
Horizon Lodge at 730 North Main Street, Panguitch, Utah. Built in 1954 for J L. and Fern Crawford. Andrew Johnson was the contractor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crawford, J. L. (Jasper Louis), 1914-2011
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sherratt Library, Southern Utah University
Subject
The topic of the resource
Panguitch (Utah) -- History
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Sherratt Library, Southern Utah University
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Red Brick Homes and Other Buildings of Panguitch, by Fern and J. L. Crawford
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Sherratt Library, Southern Utah University
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
To obtain a copy or scan of this item contact Special Collections, Southern Utah University at specialcoll@suu.edu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image;StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SUU_ph19b01i606
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/e97281f13ce22ac2b4311364c18fd54c.jpg
0d209d8a1bdf057dc876645fe6d12e62
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Salt Lake County Archives
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Salt Lake County Archives using Epson GT-15000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Display file is JPG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies or scans of this item, please contact Salt Lake County Archives at: http://admin.slco.org/archives/resFees.aspx
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hormans furniture store at 1760 South State Street in Salt Lake City, UT.
Description
An account of the resource
Hormans furniture store at 1760 South State Street, built 1949. Image taken March 23, 1949.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Salt Lake County (Utah). Assessor's Office
Subject
The topic of the resource
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah); Salt Lake County (Utah)--History; Tax Assessment-Utah;
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs; Black and white photographs;
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1949-03-23
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Salt Lake County (Utah); State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah); United States;
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-1949; 20th century;
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Salt Lake County Archives, Tax Appraisal Cards and Photographs Collection.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://admin.slco.org/archives/resPHtaxAppraisalCards.aspx
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Salt Lake County Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No copyright is held. Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is permissible.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SLCO_6-2725-1b.jpg
Highway 89
Stores & Shops
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/9156dfb142849f6004f014021857f279.jpg
00693e5d6f7ad03a11320802a048046b
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
600
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
117.295 KB
Conversion Specs
Black and white images in this collection are stored as archival TIFF and access JPEG files. Using a Creo-Scitex Eversmart Jazz+ scanner, they were scanned at 600 dpi (5 x7 or larger) or 1200 dpi (smaller) with 8-bit grayscale.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2006-12-20
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/index.php</a>
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/Bear/id/10253">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/Bear/id/10253</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horse and buggy, Mantua Road, Box Elder Canyon, Utah, about 1910
Description
An account of the resource
Horse and buggy traveling along Box Elder Creek on Mantua Road, Box Elder Canyon, Utah, circa 1910. Black and white photograph (8 x 10 inches) mounted on board
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Compton's Studio
Subject
The topic of the resource
Compton's Studio--Archives
Box Elder Canyon (Utah)--Pictorial works
Horse-drawn vehicles--Utah--Pictorial works
Mantua Road (Utah)--Pictorial works
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1910
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Mantua (Utah)
Box Elder County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Box Elder Canyon (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1910-1919
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Compton Photograph Studio Archive P0313 C0377
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
<a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv71670">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv71670</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Bear River Watershed
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Comp_0377
Highway 89; Box Elder Canyon; Transportation;
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/101f287cb31436cd2983e79a09e137a3.jpg
b60dddb4c8d07af2fe25a1da2808c55b
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Weber State University, Stewart Library
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
3 inches by 2 inches
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
400
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Weber State University, Stewart Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (400 dpi), display file is JPEG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2014-01-23
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact Weber State University at specialcollections@weber.edu
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horse Races at Lagoon
Description
An account of the resource
A view of horse races from the stands at Lagoon
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lagoon (Farmington, Utah)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lagoon (Farmington, Utah) ; recreation areas--Utah; Amusement Parks--Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs; Black and white photographs;
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1920-1930
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Farmington (Utah); Davis County (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1920-1930; 20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections, MS 364
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://library.weber.edu/asc/speccoll/registers/ms364.cfm
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Weber State University, Stewart Library, Special Collections
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the WSU Special Collections Curator, phone (801) 626-6337.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image;StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
wsu_lagoon011.jpg
Amusement Parks
Highway 89
Lagoon
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/c7fec1fc901c15eed822969cb72b2971.jpg
fea17a422f29bfe7b267dfc4ad66c3c8
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2791
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3541
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
806348 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/18/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horseshoe Cafe road sign in Piute County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Piute County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Piute County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/29/1965
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 99.99 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Piute County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 5.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959005005_1701_HorseshoeCafe.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/6d1db5866a1105e47675fbcf5daf7202.jpg
d6423753d313c3ecaf2ec834d541e00d
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Salt Lake County Archives
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Salt Lake County Archives using Epson GT-15000 scanner, at 400 dpi. Display file is JPG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies or scans of this item, please contact Salt Lake County Archives at: http://admin.slco.org/archives/resFees.aspx
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hotel at 159-179 South State Street in Salt Lake City, UT.
Description
An account of the resource
Hotel at 159-179 South State Street, built in 1907. Image taken on November 15, 1939.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Salt Lake County (Utah). Assessor's Office
Subject
The topic of the resource
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)--History
Tax Assessment-Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1939-11-15
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Salt Lake County (Utah)
State Street (Salt Lake City, Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Salt Lake County Archives, Tax Appraisal Cards and Photographs Collection.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://admin.slco.org/archives/resPHtaxAppraisalCards.aspx
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Salt Lake County Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No copyright is held. Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is permissible.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SLCO_1-2586.jpg
Highway 89
Hotels
Public Accommodations
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/a628c8d8520ab156bbbe2465344171b3.jpg
7b926a7881dbd9ce45a2ef27a0e55704
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2800
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3568
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
840811 Bytes
Conversion Specs
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-08-29
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hotel Fremont & Casino road sign in Kane County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
Kane County (Utah)
United States Highway 89
Roads--Signs
Advertising
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1967-08-25
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 021.75 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Kane County (Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 4.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959005004_HotelFremont.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/abc94110d7587973f150b5824d4d1109.jpg
c7555e74ec3195879a8bd2575d58266d
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2592
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3882
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1215608 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
5/15/14
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
House on Thistle Lake on November 10, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/10/83
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 2, Folder 64, Photo 83235-15.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229002064_83235-15_HouseOnThistleLake.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/ca8bda54d0d7f41685f7f0840aee6435.jpg
b01f377f16ff5a2355e60d2c2bd4fa53
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2644
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3876
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1495904 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
4/14/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
House Wreckage on the Thistle Lake Shoreline on August 10, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
8/10/1983
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 2, Folder 24, Photo 83165-167.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229002024_83165-167_ThistleWreckageonShore.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/adbae55541a015fc59325b608998aef0.jpg
40307893de76f140b2c3496bdb6d0472
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2650
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3864
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1290832 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
4/14/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
House Wreckage on Thistle Lake on August 10, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
8/10/1983
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 2, Folder 23, Photo 83165-220.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229002023_83165-201_FloodWreckage.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/c0048fa24b9e6af7b85644141fe12412.jpg
e3e060b890dfae5b26b0d44b65f7e525
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2765
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3315
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
610513 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/27/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Howard's Conoco road sign in Utah County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Utah County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/15/1965
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 8.74 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 10. Folder 14. Photo 382.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
009590010014_382_HowardsConoco.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/d01673f5433a7ec6e6a3f922c9693abe.jpg
b1f27ca53246925c93dc63da91c19e08
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2649
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3945
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1069540 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
5/15/14
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ice Wall on Highway 89 Near Thistle on December 31, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/31/83
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 3, Folder 49, Photo 83267-323.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229003049_83267-323_IceWall.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/4f0f81808d834be2796fd11a56e8e7ab.jpg
6d96dbff1218f0d0ae0665bbf355dda0
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Embed ID
The video ID used for embedding.
hYBRIil41LY
Player
html for embedded player to stream video content
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/hYBRIil41LY" frameborder="0" width="640" height="360"></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
ILEAD Utah - Highway 89
Description
An account of the resource
Presenters: Dustin Olson, James Earl Kichas, Clint Pumphrey, Liz Woolcott, and Paula Mitchell. This video presentation outlines the creation of the Highway 89 website.
October 23, 2013
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-12-14T09:52:31.000Z
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYBRIil41LY
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms">Standard YouTube License</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Olson, Dustin
Kichas, James Earl
Pumphrey, Clint
Woolcott, Liz
Mitchell, Paula
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms">Standard YouTube License</a>
Date Submitted
Date of submission of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Submitted may be relevant are a thesis (submitted to a university department) or an article (submitted to a journal).
2013-12-14T09:52:31.000Z
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
ILEADUSA
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Highway 89
Highway to Grandue
ILEAD
Library Initiatives
Llibrary Collaboration
Road Trips
Utah Libraries
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/9a63f9ddcadd9a924228c4b92154118e.pdf
e711cc54ec0dd456383f57dab4b7ede2
PDF Text
Text
REVISED
ROLE OF INTERDISCIPLINARY TEAM
LOGAN CANYON STUDY
The interdisciplinary team (1.0. Team) is made up of representatives from Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT),
the consultant (CH2M HILL) the United States Forest Service
(USFS), the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) and a
, representative(s) of the environmental community. A roster
of the proposed team members is attached.
The functions of the I.D. Team are:
1.
Provide Management Input
The I.D. Team will meet regularly to review areas
of study, responsibility for execution, schedules
of work, and public involvement.
2.
Provide Technical Input
Specialists from CH2M HILL with input from the
USFS will prepare technical memorandums covering
the required areas of work distributed at the
June 10 1.0. Team meeting.
t
~ ~~~
i'~
Review Technical Memoranda and Draft Environmental
Report
.
All members of the 1.0. Team will review draft
copies of technical memoranda and provide timely
written comments.
~~)\...
r
<:J
Level of Environmental Action Determination
The I .D. Team will provide a recommendation on the
appropriate class of envi 0
tal actio to be
made t q UDOT and the cooperating agencies.
t:-.""'lS ,"ti
The 10 Team will meet one to two times per month on the
average to accomplish the functions outlined above. Proposed
schedule for the next 3 months.
~
14
July 28
August 4
August 18
Sept. 8
Sept. 22
SLC74/08
3:00
3:00
7:00
3:00
3:00
7:00
p.m.
p.m.
p.m.
p.m.
p.m.
p.m.
District
District
District
District
District
District
Office
Office
Office
Office
Office
Office
�6-26-86
REVISED
LOGAN CANYON IMPROVEMENT STUDY
PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT PLAN
PURPOSE OF PLAN
To inform the public and interested agencies about the study,
to obtain public input that can be incorporated into the
decision-making process, and to comply with the National
Environmental Protection Act and other regulations and policies calling for public involvement in Utah Department of
Transportation projects.
The following public involvement plan is based on four study
milestones. Public involvement will take place shortly
after the designated milestone in the study has occurred.
In addition to the program proposed upon reaching each study
milestone, the following activities will occur continuously
throughout the study.
o
Maintenance of a Mailing List - all individuals
and interest groups requesting mailings will be
included on this list (attached to this plan)
o
Local Study Liaison - Valley Engineers in Logan
will maintain copies of all informational material
on the study in its Logan office, and will answer
or refer questions to the appropriate person.
CH2M HILL will also perform this service in its
Salt Lake City office
o
Local repositories for study materials will be
arranged at the Logan Public Library, Utah State
University Library, Garden City municipal offices,
and Salt Lake City Public Library. All informational materials will also be available at Wasatch/
Cache National Forest offices in Ogden and at the
Utah Department of Transportation offices in Salt
Lake City
MILESTONE 1 - BEGINNING OF STUDY
Task 1, the analysis of transportation needs, is scheduled
to begin in early June 1986.
Objectives
o
To explain to the public what the study will entail
o
To explain why the study is necessary
1
�o
To explain that UDOT has an obligation to the
public to keep Highway 89 open, and therefore some
level of improvement is needed even to implement a
no-action alternative
Techniques
o
Press Release to be submitted to all media included
on mailing list - week of July 6
o
Project Introduction - a detailed written explanation of the history of this study, the reasons for
conducting this study, and the tasks to be conducted,
will be mailed to all groups/individuals included
on the mailing list - week of July 13
o
Written Summary of public involvement activities,
responses, and issues will be prepared upon completing this phase of the public involvement
program - week of July 28
MILESTONE 2 - COMPLETION OF TRANSPORTATION NEEDS ANALYSIS
The analysis and conclusions of this study should be close
to completion by July 31.
Objectives
o
To report the findings of the study regarding
safety problems, maintenance problems and design
factors that cause traffic flow problems now and
in the future, at specific sites in the canyon
o
To identify the need for actions, and the general
magnitude of the actions needed to provide certain
levels of service
Techniques
o
Press Release to be submitted to all media included
on mailing list - week of August 4
o
Summary Report of Findings/Fact Sheet will be mailed
to all groups/individuals on mailing list - week
of August 11
o
Town Meeting to discuss findings, answer questions
to be held in Logan - week of August 25
o
Meetings With Interest Groups as requested - following town meeting through September 12
2
�o
Written Summary of activities, response, and
issues will . be prepared upon completion of the
second phase of the public involvement program week of September 15
MILESTONE 3 - COMPLETION OF ALTERNATIVES DEVELOPMENT
(Prior to environmental impact analysis) - This should occur
near the end of November.
Objectives
o
To explain the proposed project alternatives to
the public and relate them to an approximate level
of service. Each project alternative will consist
of action plans for a number of sites on the road
where problems have been identified, which together
will maintain or improve the road to a certain
level of service.
o
To identify specific concerns of individuals and
interest groups regarding the proposed alternatives
o
To obtain consensus among interested parties on
the issues to be analyzed in the environmental
analysis of the proposed project
Techniques
o
Press Release giving brief review of study findings to date, explaining proposed alternatives,
and reviewing the proposed scoping activities will
be submitted to all media on the mailing list week of November 24
o
Fact Sheet giving detailed explanation of each
alternative with graphic . illustration, explanation
of level of service provided by each, and general
advantages and disadvantages, will be sent to each
entry on mailing list - week of November 24
o
Meetings With Interest/Service Groups expressing
strong interest in the study will be held during
the first 3 weeks of December to discuss the alternatives and identify their concerns. A maximum of
four such meeting are planned, and as a result
some groups might be requested to meet together.
Groups that request such a meeting might include:
Sierra Club
Utah Wilderness Association
Bridgerland Audubon Society
3
�Rich-Cache Tourist Council
Cache County Chamber of Commerce
Bear River Association of Governments
Bear Lake Convention and Visitors Bureau
Cache Economic Development Council
(
December 1-19
o
Town Meeting will be held in Logan to summarize
alternatives, report on concerns voiced by groups/
individuals, receive testimony on other concerns.
Issues to be addressed in environmental analysis
will be summarized - week of January 5
o
Press Release reviewing scoping process activities
and is~ues to be studied in environmental analysis
will be submitted to all media included on mailing
list - week of January 19
o
Written Summary of all public involvement activities, response, and issues will be prepared after
the activities of this phase have been conducted week of January 26
MILESTONE 4 - COMPLETION OF DRAFT ENVIRONMENTAL DOCUMENT
Approximately May 29.
Objectives
o
To report findings of environmental analysis
o
To answer questions regarding conclusions drawn in
the document
o
To receive comments regarding the findings of the
document
Technigues
o
Videotape explaining the alternatives and discussing
the environmental tradeoffs will be developed prior
to Milestone 4 to be presented during this stage Months of February and March.
o
Summary Report reviewing findings of the draft
analysis will be mailed to all groups/individuals
included on mailing list - week of June 1, 1987
o
Press Release reporting findings of environmental
analysis and schedule for public input/hearings to
be submitted to all media listed in mailing list week of June 1, 1987
4
�o
Workshop Meeting to present videotape, discuss
environmental analysis findings, allow questions
and answers ' - Logan, week of June 15
o
Public Hearing to present videotape and Feceive
testimony on draft environmental analysis - Logan,
week of July 13, 1987; possible hearing in Ogden
or Salt Lake City, week of July 13, 1987. Written
testimony will be accepted for 30 days after last
hearing
o
Written Summary of all public involvement activities, response, and issues will be prepared after
the activities of Phase 4 have been conducted week of August 10
All aspects of the public involvement program will remain
flexible since it must be responsive to the conduct of the
project and the needs of the community. Public involvement
activities will be announced in all press releases.
SLC78/d.401
(
5
�LOGAN CANYON PROJECT
MAILING LIST
Group
Sierra Club
Phone
Contact
Jack Spence
Rudy Lukez
(801)750-1626
(801)863-3702 (W)
(801)753-5568 (H)
Utah Wilderness Association
Tom Lyon
(801)750-1603
Bridgerland Audubon Society
Steve Flint
Address
(801)752-9102 (H)
(801)750-2474 (W)
P.O. Box 3580
Logan, Utah 84321
Sun City Travellers
Rich-Cache Tourist Council
Dean Smith
Cache County Chamber of
Commerce
Paula Bell
(801)752-2161
Bear River Association of
Governments
Bruce King
(801) 752-7242
Bear Lake Regional
Commission
Al Harrison
(208)945-2333
Bear Lake Convention and
Visitors' Bureau
Jenny Archer
Cache Economic Development
Council
Bobbie Coray
(801)753-3631
Cache County Farm Bureau
Lynn Meikle
(801)563-3633
c/o Cache County
Chamber of Commerce
Greater Bear Lake Chamber
of Commerce
Bear River Resource,
Conservation, and
Development Coordinator
170 North Main
Logan, Utah 84321
Garden City, Utah
Kent Hortin
1305 Canyon Road
Smithfield, Utah
84335
USDA Service Center
1075~ North Main Street
Logan, Utah 84321
Raymond N. Malouf
Malouf Law Offices
150 East 200 North
Suite D
Logan, Utah 84321
Cache County Commissioners
J. Owen Yeates
Dean H. Parker
Jay A. Monson
Rich County Commissioners
Kenneth R. Brown
Blair Francis
Dee Johnson
Utah Travel Council
Barbara Fjelsted
Local Legislative
Delegation
Stephen Bodily
c/o The Sportsman
Logan, Utah 84321
(208)258-2844
L. Keith Gates
(801)752-7335 (H)
(801)752-7445 (W)
1
810 S. Main
Lewiston, Idaho
84320
665 N. 200 E.
Logan, Utah 84321
�LOGAN CANYON PROJECT
MAILING LIST (Continued)
Group
Phone
Contact
(801)752-4304
Evan L. Olsen
Address
2009 S. 3200 W.
Route 1
Young Ward, Utah
84339
Lyle Hilliard
(801)753-0043 (H)
(801)752-2610 (W)
175 E. First N.
Logan, Utah 84321
John Holmgren
(801)279-8679 (H)
(801)753-5229 (W)
4570 W. 5400 N.
Bear River City, Utah
84301
Utah State University
City of Logan
City of Smithfield
City of Hyrum
City of Providence
City of North Logan
City of Wellsville
City of Richmond
City of Hyde Park
(
City of Lewiston
City of River Heights
City of Nibley
City of Millville
City of Mindon
City of Newton
City of Clarkston
City of Paradise
City of Trenton
City of Amalga
City of Cornish
City of Randolph
City of Laketown
City of Garden City
City of Woodruff
2
�LOGAN CANYON PROJECT
MAILING LIST (Continued)
Group
Contact
Phone
Address
MEDIA
Logan Herald Journal
Tim Vitale
(801)752-2121
75 West 300 North
Logan, Utah 84321
Mel Baldwin
(307) 789-6560
P.O. Box B
Evanston, Wyoming
82930
(801)237-2045
P.O. Box 867
Salt Lake City, Utah
(801)237-2150
P.O. Box 1257
Salt Lake City, Utah
84110
KSL Television Channel 5
(801)237-2500
145 Social Hall Ave.
Salt Lake City, Utah
84111
KTVX Television Channel 4
(801)972-1776
1760 S. Fremont Dr.
Salt Lake City, Utah
84104
KUTV Television Channel 2
(801)973-3000
2185 S. 3600 W.
West Valley City, Utah
84120
Cache Citizen
Uinta (Evanston) County
Herald (bi-weekly:
Wednesday and Friday)
Salt Lake Tribune
Utah State University
Statesman
Salt Lake Deseret News
Joe Bauman
Ogden Standard-Examiner
KVNU Radio
KUEZ Radio
KUSU Radio
Lee Austin
SLC78/d.402
3
�LOGAN CANYON
TRAFFIC COUNTING AND FORECASTING
OBJECTIVE
1.
To determine the volume and type of traffic currently
using Highway 89 between Logan and Garden City.
2.
To develop an estimate of traffic volume in the year
2010.
DATA SOURCES
The primary source of traffic volume data is the permanent
counting station located west of Garden City. The information available from data gathered at this station includes:
~
Daily and hourly traffic totals for 1974 through
1985 (see attachment 1 for month of June 1985).
~
A ranking of the 100 highest traffic flow hours
for 1974 through 1985 (see attachment 2 for 1985).
~
Authomatic recorder data by months (see attachment 3 for 1985).
METHODOLOGY FOR COLLECTING ADDITIONAL TRAFFIC DATA
Three coverage stations have been established in the Canyon.
Traffic counts will be taken at these stations up to 4 days
during the course of this study. These stations are at
Right Hand Fork, Terry Grove Intersection and Beaver
Mountain Intersection.
The Federal Highway Administration,
Volume Counting Manual, recommends counts at coverage
stations be taken 2 to 4 days per year.
The primary
function of the coverage station counts will be vehicle
classification.
The data gathered at these coverage stations will be used to
establish the volume and classification of traffic at points
along the road and to supplement the data provided by the
permanent counting station. See attachments 3 and 4 for the
results of the February 22 counts at the Beaver Mountain
Junction.
METHODOLOGY FOR FORECASTING FUTURE TRAFFIC LOADS
There is apparently no universally accepted methodology for
forecasting future traffic volumes. When forecasts have
been required by other state or federal agencies (the Federal
Highway Administration for example) UDOT has provided the
forecast and a description of the methodology used.
The
1
�current methodology used within the State of Utah to forecast traffic volume is not totally applicable to a situation
like Logan Canyon.
This methodology assumes traffic into
and out of, a major employment center. The traffic between
Logan and Garden City is heavily influenced by the summer
recreational development on the south and west shores of
Bear Lake. The average daily traffic (ADT) recorded in 1985
by the permanent station was 1240. However the ADT for the
months June through September was 2374 and for the remainder
of the year 673 vehicles per day.
In preparing previous
forecasts for S-89, two methodologies have been used. One
methodology assumes full development of the proposed Bear
Lake recreational facilities by the end of the planning
period. The second methodology uses past trends to forecast
future changes in traffic volume. Both methodologies will
be briefly discussed below.
FULL DEVELOPMENT
The full development approach to forecasting the future
traffic volume assumes that all planned or proposed cabin
lots or condominium units in the Bear Lake area will be completed within the planning period.
Traffic is then expected
to increase in some proportion to the increase in cabins or
condominiums.
In 1981
surve'_ showed 1011 develq2ed _ca in
lots or condominlums units along the south and west shores
At that time there were 17,420 planned units. Using a full
development senario the estimated ADT for 1990 was 4489,
with 8360 vehicles per day forecast for the summer months.
PAST TRENDS
Using past trends as a means of forecasting future ADT provides a significantly lower estimate of traffic volume.
Using this ~ method, the trends
ears are used
to estimate future AmT. A recent UDOT study forecasting ADT \_
throu gh the C
.
amy ou-rn the year 2005 shqwed ~ tO , a 3 percent ~
~er vear increase. U$ing this metfiod, the estimated .2
~T ~
would be 2400. This is approximately double the volume today.
For this study, a past-trends approach appears to be most
realistic for preparing a forecast of the future traffic
volume.
The ADT will also be determined for the summer
months in addition to the annual.
The ratio between the
summer ADT and the annual ADT would then be used to forecast
the summer ADT at the end of the planning period.
SLC77/61
2
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/79">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/79</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000.
Checksum
2238679222
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
6790578 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Information about interdisciplinary team and Logan Canyon study
Description
An account of the resource
Information about interdisciplinary team including contact information and mailing lists and Logan Canyon study with traffic counting and forecasting, purpose of Logan Canyon improvement study and public involvement plan, and the revised role of intersiciplinary team.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Government agencies
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Administrative records
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1986-06-26
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-1989
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 3
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS148VIIIB27_Fd3_Page_1.pdf
Highway 89;
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/0b9488c88e01aa2a27762ee383469a7e.pdf
2339a53ab2d0cca68b18ec4a5f95d6ac
PDF Text
Text
INTERDISCIPLINARY TEAM MEETING
F~bruary~,
1987
17
Additional Data for Agenda Items
Agenda Item No:
2.
Distribution of Revised Outline for Scoping Meeting
3.
Distribution of copy of Notice of Intent from
January 23, 1987 Federal Register
Distribution of Legal Notice of Scoping Meeting sent to
media.
Distribution of letter sent to agencies
Distribution of draft of fact sheet
Distribution of Revised Matrix of Component and Alternative
Development Dated February, 1987.
SLC-STAN/14
1
�LOWER
CANYON
SECTION 1-MIDDLE CANYON
SECTION 2-UPPER CANYON
SECTION 3-RICH COUNTY
LOGAN CITY TO
RIGHT FORK
M.P. 374.62 TO
M.P. 383.47
8.85 MILES
RIGHT FORK TO 1.8 MILES ABOV E RICKS SPRING
M.P. 383.47 TO M.P. 391.60
8.13 MILES
R 0 A D WAY ST A. 482 + 00 TO 920 +·00
1.8 MILES ABOV E RICKS SPRING TO BEAR LAKE SLNMIT
M.P. 391.60 TO M.P. 404.75
13.15 MILES
ROADWAY STA. 920+00 TO 1690+00
BEAR LAKE SUMMIT TO GARDEN CITY
M.P. 404.75 TO M.P. 411.78
7.03 MILES
ROADWAY STA. 1690+00 TO 2068+00
....
C
Ol
E
C
CJ)CJ)
W c=
..... S2 c:x:
c:x:
z c:x: CJ)
()
COMPONENTS
a:
W
.....
c.~
Ol'O.~
Ol ....
en
..C
Ol
o
W
-
Q)-
0
OOl
>c
.,...
Ol
a.E
EC
-.2>
.c:x:. '0<
. C
zcuCJ)
c: c.S
W
Ol"-
~ ~~ c:x:
~w
..... 'O.~
.....J .- X
C\I
c:x:
en :::J:2
~'3
W .... co
..... en
C\I
W ....
C
Ol
~ a.E
EC
w -.~
co
E
W
o
La.
.c:x:. '0<
.
E
c: c.~
W Ol"..... 'O.~
.....J .- X
Ol
>
.....
c:x:
0
c:x:
z .sz z
c: cu- a:
..... . ~ 0
.....J CU:::J
c:x: ~a
en
>c
W
.....
.....J
c:x:
+-'
o
a.
en
E
Ol
>
o
ra.
E
..o
C
ZCUCJ)
c..
c:x: ~. W
(J)
Q)-
~c
C")L-Ol
o c.E
EC
W -.2>
C")
C")
C")
W
LL.c ....
c
W :.: Ol
o
C).c ...
.c:x:. '0<
.
.....zE
w"5c:
o Ol
.~
(J) E
c:x:
C
C
z ~ CJ) z
a: ~ .~
a:Ol=
wzC:X: w O l <
C
ZCUCJ)
c: c.S
W Q)..... 'O.~
.....J .- X
..... z
.....
.....J
c:x: ~w
.....J
c:x:
c:x:
CROSS SECTION ELEMENTS
- No Widening (Maintain Existing Surface)
.--~------~----~I~~---~--=---+------+------~--.
-Widening-Standard (40' Pavement>
~------------~~----~------~------+------+------~----~~-----+------~----~~- Widening-Modified Std (34' Pavement)
- C lim b in 9 La n e s (S eIe c ted Are as )
-Climbing Lanes (All Possible Areas)
~------------i~----~------~------~----_+------~----~~----_+------~----~~-= --+-----~------~~------+-----~~----~--~--_+---.~_+---.--~~~.--~
·
.
•
•
•
ROADWAY CURVATURE (ALIGNMENT)
- Retain Existing Alignment
-Improve Alignment (Selected Areas)
-Improve Alignment (35 MPH)
-Improve Alignment (40 MPH)
-Improve Alignment (60 MPH)
- New Alignment (40 MPH)
-New Alignment (50 MPH)
ROADWAY GRADIENT
- Retain Existing Gradient
- Adjust/Raise Gradient (Selected Areas)
-Improve Gradient (35 MPH)
-Improve Gradient (40 MPH)
-Improve Gradient (60 MPH)
- New Gradient (40 MPH)
- New Gradient (50 MPH)
MAJOR BRIDGES
- Repair Existing Structures
- Replace on Existing Alignment
- Replace on New Alignment
MISCELLANEOUS ROADWAY FEATURES
- Retain Signing and Markings
-Improve Signing and Markings
- Slow Vechicle Turnouts
-Retain Existing Recreational Turnouts
- Provide New Recreational Turnouts
(1) SOME CURVES HAVE AN ADVISORY
SPEED OF LESS THAN THE MINIMUM
SHOWN.
••
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
~------------i~~L-~-------~------~----_+------~----~r_~--_+------+_----_+------~------r_----~t-------~----~------~------~----_+----~~----~
•
•
•
~------------~~----~------~------~----_+------+_----~r_----_+------~----~~----~------+_----~I~----~------+-----~------~---
•
•
•
•
j
•
•
•
•
•
(1)
•
•
(1)
.(1)
-•
• (1)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
---
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
(1)
--
•
•
(1)
•
•
•
•
•
:
•
•
FIGURE
•
•
•
•
•
COMPONENT AND ALTERNATIVE DEVELOPMENT
LOGAN CAN ·YON STUDY FEBRUARY 1987
c'::¥.U:mf
�.OUTLINE FOR SCOPING MEETING PRESENTATION
MARCH 3, 4, 1987
u.S. 89 - LOGAN CANYON EIS
REVISED FEBRUARY 16, 1987
I.
Introduction
A.
Welcome to UDOT-FHWA-USFS Scoping Meeting on
U.S. 89 Logan Canyon EIS - Tod Weston
B.
Introduction of speaker (others?)
C.
Purpose of meeting - formal scoping meeting in
accordance with NEPA - NEPA requires scoping
meeting to be held after publishing notice of
intent, before preparing EIS
1.
2.
Obtain input on issues that · should be considered in the EIS and suggestions for
project alternatives
3.
D.
Share results of study to present, project
alternatives developed
Answer questions on the alternatives and the
EIS process
UDOT contracted with CH2M HILL to carry out three
major study efforts
1.
2.
Development of transportation plan (alternatives)
3.
E.
Analysis of traffic constraints and needs
Preparation of environmental document (EIS)
Previous public information meetings have been
held from which input will be used for scoping
EIS, along with this input; this meeting will
1.
Quickly recap results of study to present
2.
Review goals and objectives
3.
Explain project alternatives developed to the
present
4.
Receive comments and suggestions, perhaps
more specific to alternatives
1
.. J
�II.
Project Setting
A.
Relation of U.S. 89 to Region
B.
Most of project area lies within Cache National
Forest, therefore, USFS and FHWA are cooperating
agencies on EIS
III. Study Findings
A.
Logan Canyon is scenic and recreational resource
designated by the USFS as a scenic highway
B.
U.S. 89 serves traffic
1.
Utilizing canyon for recreation
2.
From regional communities accessing the
regional trade center of Logan or recreational
opportunities around Bear Lake
3.
Through traffic from the accessing recreational areas of Yellowstone and Teton
National Parks
c.
Resources of canyon and population increase will
increase the traffic volume on U.S. 89 in future
D.
U.S. 89 classified as a "rural minor arterial"
E.
Classifications carry standards to be met; U.S. 89
does not presently conform to standards of a rural
minor arterial
F.
Cross-section elements of road are significantly
substandard throughout most of project area;
gradient and curves add to problems
G.
Commence existing, standard, and modified standard,
typical sections
H.
Frequency of accidents is significantly greater in
16 areas than the average for the Canyon
I.
Explain level of service - quality measure of
operating conditions
J.
At present volumes, road falls into Level of
Service D
K.
By 2000, the level of service will drop to E in
some places, by 2005 will generally be E throughout
project area
Results of traffic needs study presented at previous
meetings; fact sheet is available
L.
2
... j
�IV.
Goals and Objectives
A.
Primary opjective of study is to achieve balance
between transportation needs and scenic and
recreational resources of canyon
B.
Transportation needs - rural minor arterial
standards
1.
Achieve a level of service C wherever possible
in the Canyon through year 2010
a.
b.
Widen and improve alignment
Provide climbing lanes
2.
3.
Improve safety in any identified hazardous
areas
4.
Improve roadside turnouts and parking areas
5.
Improve major intersections
6.
C.
Replace substandard bridges and drainage
structures
Keep highway guardrails to a minimum consistent with public safety
Scenic and aesthetic values - recreation and water
quality are resources ~hich require greatest
protection
1.
Manage corridor as a scenic highway
2.
Avoid Logan River channel changes and protect
the riparian edge
3.
Mitigate any encroachment damage to fisheries
and wildlife habitat
4.
Minimize cut and fill slopes
5.
Landscape disturbed areas to restore
aesthetics, including abandoned road sections
6.
Control runoff on cut and fill slopes to
minimize erosion and protect water quality
7.
Protect existing and potential recreation
sites, and provide suitable access
8.
Dispose of surplus material in designated
areas
3
.J
�v.
Alternatives Development
A.
Study area can be divided into three sections
based on terrain and road design characteristics
1.
Right Fork to 1.8 miles above Ricks Spring
')
L. •
1.8 miles above Ricks Spring to Bear Lake
Summit
3.
Bear Lake Summit to Garden City
B.
Different alternatives are appropriate to each
section
C.
Alternatives not yet final; may be increased/
decreased as a result of input from scoping meetings
D.
Alternatives generally cover wide range of options
to provide good comparison of pros and cons of
each
E.
Sect.ion 1 - Right Fork to 1.8 miles above Ricks
Springs
1.
2.
Spot improvements - replace bridges; slow
vehicle turnouts; recreational turnouts and
parking; signing and marking improvements
3.
Widen along existing alignment - widen lanes,
shoulders, and ditches, raise grade in potential flood areas, plus other spot improvements
4.
F.
No action - maintain existing road
Widen and improve existing alignment to design
speed of 35 mph to 40 mph - improve (straighten)
alignment; passing lanes; particularly in
areas of sustained grades; improvements listed
in 2 and 3
Section 2 - 1.8 miles above Ricks Spring to Bear
Lake -Summit
1.
No action - maintain existing road
2.
Widen and improve existing alignment to design
speed of 55 to 60 mph, widen lanes, shoulders,
and ditches, improve (straighten) alignment,
provide passing lanes, particularly in areas
of steep grades; raise grade in potential
flood areas; bridge replacement; signing and
marking improvements
4
�G.
Section 3 - Bear Lake Summit to Garden City
1.
2.
Construct road along new alignment to north
4.
IV.
Widen and improve along existing alignment to
design speed of 40 to 50 mph - widen lanes,
shoulders, and ditches; improve (straighten)
alignment; provide passing lanes, particularly
in areas of steep grades, raise grade in potential flood areas; bridge replacement;
signing and marking improvements
3.
H.
No action - maintain existing road
Construct road along new alignment to south
Use of an alternate canyon for new road for through
traffic such as Blacksmith Fork has been suggested
as an alternative by many in the past. Has been
determined economically infeasible. Therefore,
must do best we can to balance local recreation/
through traffic needs on existing U.S. 89
Procedures to Submit Comments
1.
Sign up
2.
Step to microphone
3.
Give name, representing what group
4.
Want to give everyone chance to speak before
allowing anyone second opportunity
5.
Not looking for whether you favor project or
not, but what issues should be examined in
ErS, or other alternatives or mitigation that
should be considered
6.
Written comments will be accepted through
Monday, April 6. Address is on hand-out at
back of room.
SLC94/d.ll0l
5
- j
�LIST OF SLIDES TO ACCOMPANY
PRESENTATION AT SCOPING MEETINGS
MARCH 3, 4, 1987 LOGAN CANYON EIS
REVISED FEBRUARY 16, 1987
Slide No
1.
US-89 - Logan Canyon
Environmental Impact Statement
Scoping Meeting
Utah Department of Transportation
in cooperation with United States Forest
Service and Federal Highway Administration
Consultant: CH2M HILL
2.
Purpose of Scoping Meeting
o
o
o
o
o
o
Comply with National Environmental
Protection Act (NEPA)
Review study approach
Review public involvement program
Review results of study
Review alternatives developed to date
Obtain input on alternatives
3•
Vicinity Map ( Figure 1 - T.M . .)
4•
Site Map (Figure 2 - T.M.)
5.
Function of US-fr9 through Logan Canyon
o
o
o
o
o
o
6.
Designation by USFS as a scenic highway
Recreational access within canyon
Regional recreational traffic
Regional business and service
Serves interstate through traffic
Classification "Rural Minor Arterial"
Roadway Characteristics
o
o
o
o
Substandard cross-section
Low design/travel speed
Low level of service - delays
Traffic volumes will increase
7.
Typical Sections (Figure)
8.
Goals and Objectives
o
SLC-STN/18
Transportation needs
1
�Level of service C in year 2010
Replace drainage structures
Imp" ove hazardous areas
r
Improve turnouts and parking
Improve major intersections
Minimize guardrailing consistent with safety
9.
Goals and Objectives
o
Scenic and Aesthetic Values
Manage as a scenic highway
Protect river and riparian edge
Mitigate damage to wildlife habitat
Minimize cut and fill scopes
Landscape disturbed areas
Control runoff
Protect water quality
Protect recreation sites and access
Surplus material disposal
10.
Study Area - Three Sections
Section
1
2
3
Description
Right Fork to 1.8 miles above Ricks Spring
1.8 miles above Ricks Spring to Bear Lake Summit
Bear Lake Summit to Garden City
11.
Site Map (Showing three sections)
12.
Alternative Categories
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
13.
No action
Spot improvements
Widen along existing alignment
Widen and improve existing alignment
New alignment (Section 3)
Alternatives
A.
No Action (Sections 1, 2, and 3)
Maintain Existing Road
14.
Alternatives
B.
Spot Improvements (Sections 1, 2, and 3)
Replace bridges
Slow vehicle turnouts
Recreational turnouts and parking
Signing and pavement marking improvements
SLC-STN/18
2
�15.
Alternatives
C.
Widen Along Existing Alignment (Section 1)
Widen lanes and shoulders
Widen ditches - improve drainage
Replace bridges
Climbing lanes
Recreational turnouts and parking
Signing and pavement marking improvements
16.
Typical Sections - Widening on Existing
Alignment (Figure)
17.
Alternatives
o.
Widen and Improve existing alignment
(Section 1, 2, and 3)
Improve alignment - Section 1 35 - 40
Section 2 55 - 60
Section 3 35 - 40
Widen lanes and shoulders
Widen ditches - improve drainage
Replace bridges
Climbing lanes
Recreational turnouts and parking
Signing and pavement marking improvements
18.
Cross Sections - Widening and Improving Alignment
19.
Alternatives (Section .3)
E.
F.
New north alignment
G.
20.
New north alignment
New south alignment
Alternatives Summary
Alternative
Categories
A.
B.
C.
o.
E.
F.
G.
Section 1
(Middle Canyon)
No Action
Spot Improvements
Widen Exist. Road
Widen and Improve:
35-40 mph
40-50 mph
55-60 mph
New North Alignment
New North Alignment
New South Alignment
SLC-STN/18
Al
Bl
Cl
Section 2
(Upper Canyon)
A2
B2
Section 3
(Rich County)
A3
B3
01
03
02
E3
F3
G3
3
�(Notes Slides 21 . - 31 to be made from Figures)
21.
Alternative B1 - Middle Canyon
Spot Improvements
22.
Alternative C1 - Middle Canyon
Widen Existing Alignment
23.
Alternative D1 - Middle Canyon
Widen and Improve Existing Alignment
24.
Alternative B2 - Upper Canyon (lower Half)
Spot Improvements
25.
Alternative B2 - Upper Canyon (upper Half)
Spot Improvements
26.
Alternative D2 - Upper Canyon (lower half)
Widen and Improve Existing Alignment
27.
Alternative D2 - Upper Canyon (upper half)
Widen and Improve Existing Alignment
28.
Alternative B3 - Rich County
Spot Improvements
29.
Alternative D3 - Rich County
Widen and Improve Existing Alignment
30.
Alternative E3, F3 Rich County
New North Alignment
31.
Alternative G3 - Rich County
New South Alignment
31.
SLC-STN/18
Alternative Summary (repeat of slide 19)
4
�L/s/ (7/ jJn;;/ #1eck~ r.4t/ reee<:C/-ed 0-
:: C-e;P[1 of ~ ~,6 6/ /<fF7 .£ ep( ~#ce '
LOGAN CANYON PROJECI
MAILING LIST
MEDIA
Organization
~
Logan Herald Journal
~
Contact
Phone
Cache Citizen
v'
Lake Tribune -
Sa-If f4k
Tl,bu~
(80l.) 752-2121
75 West 300 North
Logan, Utah 84321
485 North Main
Logan, Utah 84321
Uinta (Evanston) County
Herald (bi-weekly:
Wednesday and Friday)
v - Salt
~
Tim Vitale -
Address
-
Mel Baldwin
(307) 789-6560
(801) 237-2045
Utah State University
The Statesman
(Lc7~~)
P.O. Box 867
Salt Lake City, Utah 84110
(801) 750-1759
C h Y;J j~nJR-1.f~"
P.O. Box B
Evanston, Wyoming
82930
UMC 0165
Utah State University
Logan, Utah 84322
Salt Lake Deseret News
Joe Bauman
(801) 237-2150
P.O. Box 1257
Salt Lake City, Utah
84110
Ogden Standard-Examiner
City Editor
(801) 394-7711
455 23rd Str.
Ogden, Utah 84402
Box Elder News and Journal
(801) 723-3471
55 South 100 West
Brigham City, Utah
84302
V
Bear Lake Gazette
(208) 847-3077
484 Washington Str.
Montpelier, Idaho 83254
~
The News Examiner
(208) 847-0552
847 Washington Str.
P. O. Box 278
Hontpelier, Idaho 83254
KSL Television Channel 5
(801) 237-2500
145 Social Hall Ave.
Salt Lake City, Utah
84111
KTVX Television Channel 4
(801) 972-1776
1760 S. Fremont Dr.
Salt Lake City, Utah
84104
KUTV Television Channel 2
(801) 973-3000
2185 S. 3600 W.
West Valley City, Utah
84120
KVNU Radio
(801) 752-5141
1350 N. 200 W.
Logan, Utah 84321
KVEZ Radio
(801) 753-8210
26.00 North Main
Logan, Utah 84321
(801) 750-3143
University Hill
Utah State University
Logan, Utah 84321
(801) 752-1390
810 West 200 North
Logan, Utah 84321
(801) 750-5018
606 North 500 East
Logan, Utah 84321
j,/
- ~
(
KUSU Radio
Therese Stamm
Editor
Lee Austin
KBLQ Radio
Salt Lake Tribune
(Local Correspondent)
SLC-STAN/BIG
Chris Jorgensen
5
�_
_
l ~:£~ lillI'
_
. Enginee~s
. Planners '
Economists
Scientists
February 6, 1987
B21163.DO
Logan Herald Journal
75 West 300 North
Logan, Utah 84321
Attention:
Legal Advertising
Enclosed please find a Notice of Public Meeting. We would
like this notice to appear in the next possible issue of
your paper.
Please invoice us fo~ the cost of the advertisement and send
and Affidavit of Publication to my attention at the address
shown below.
Sincerely,
Sandy Leonard
Office Administrator
. SLC94/46
t
Enclosure
CH2M HILL
Utah Area Office Associated Plaza. Suite 500. 349 South 200 East
P.o. Box 2218. Salt Lake City. Utah 84101
801 .363.0200
�NOTICE OF PUBLIC SCOPING MEETINGS
US-89 Logan Canyon
The Federal Highway Administration (FHW~), U. S. Forest Service (USFS), and Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT)
will jointly hold public scoping meetings for the Environ~ental Impact Statement (ElS) being prepared f9r U.s. Highway 89 through Logan Canyon in Cache and Rich Counties, Utah,
on March 3, at 7:00 p.m. at the Mountain Fuel Supply Auditorium, 45 East 200 North in Logan, and on March 4, at 7:00
p.m. in Garden City Hall. A meeting for governmental agencies
and public officials will be held March 4, at 10:00 a.m. in
the Logan City Hall. The general public, interest groups,
and governmental agency personnel are invited to attend to
provide input regarding their concerns about impacts of road
improvements on the environment of the Canyon and issues
which should be addressed. Comments and suggestions are
invited from all interested parties.
UDOT has contracted with CH2M HILL, an environmental engineering consulting firm in Salt Lake City, to analyze transportation needs in Logan Canyon, develop alternative plans
for improvements, and evaluate the impact of those plans on
the environment in an ElS. The FHWA and the USFS will be
cooperating agencies on the EIS, which will -be developed in
conformance with the National Environmental Policy Act
(NEPA) .
NEPA requires that a scoping process take place prior to the
conduct . of an ElS. It is the purpose . of the scoping meetings
to determine ' from the interested community what are perceived
to be the sensitive resources of the project area and what
environmental factors should be studied most closely in the
ElS.
Several public meetings discussing the project have
been held previously. Other scoping meetings will be held
as determined necessary, and information on time and place
will be provided through the local news media. Public meetings will also be held when the draft EIS is completed to
obtain comments on its contents.
The proposed action would improve US-89 through Logan Canyon
from Right Fork about 9 miles east of Logan, to Garden City,
a distance of approximately 28 miles.
This road passes
through the -Wasatch-Cache National Forest, which provides
scenic and recreational resources. Portions of the highway
are a narrow two-lane road with numerous curves and considerable gradient. The highway is traveled by a significant
number of recreational and other large vehicles, which,
along the the road constraints, often results in delays of
traffic.
Improvements to be considered include widening of
the roadway and shoulders, flattening of curves, replacing
and widening of bridges, adjustment of road gradient, improvement of signing, provision of additional recreational turn-
�...
"
outs, and/or constructing a new road along a new alignment
is selected areas, etc.
The project area can be divided into three sections based on
the design characteristics of the road. These sections are:
1.
Right Fork to 1.8 miles above Ricks Springs,
2.
1.8 miles above Ricks Spring to Bear Lake Summit,
and
3.
Bear Lake Summit to Garden City (Rich County).
Different alternatives might be selected for each of the
road sections. Alternatives currently being considered for
the project include:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
No action
Spot improvements
Widening along the existing alignment
Widening and improving the existing alignment
Constructing the road along a new alignment in the
Rich County section
A fact sheet providing information about the project will be
available at Valley Engineering, in Logan; Utah State
University Library; Garden City Hall; the U. S. Forest
Service, Ogden; and CH2M HILL, Salt Lake City; approximately
3 weeks prior to the scheduled meetings. Written comments
or questions will be accepted through Monday, April 6.
These should be directed to:
Stanton Nuffer or
Clifford Forsgren
P.O. Box 2218
Salt Lake City, Utah
(801) 363-0200
SLC60/72
84110
�_
1~:ft~ ,",,,
_
Engineers
Planners
Economists
Scientists
c;orJy o f LErrG~ S:£/\/T
TO 77 OFP/ce.S,
February 13, 1987
B21163.DO
Economic Development Administration
Denver Region
Office of the Director
909 17th Street
Denver, Colorado 80202
Ladies and Gentlemen:
The Federal Highway Administration, u.s. Forest Service, and Utah Department
of Transportation (UDOT) will jointly hold an agency scoping meeting for the
environmental impact statement (ElS) being .prepared for U.S. 89 through Logan
Canyon (Summit and Rich Counties, Utah). ' The meeting will be on March 4, at
10:00 a.m. in Logan City Hall, Logan, Utah. Agency personnel are invited
to attend . and provide input regarding major issues that should be examined
in theEIS and concerns about impacts of road improvements. Public scoping
meetings will be held on March 3, 7:00 p.m., at the Mountain Fuel Supply
Auditorium, 45 East 200 North in Logan, and on March 4 at 7:00 p.m. in Garden
City Hall. You are also welcome to attend these meetings.
UDOT has contracted with CH2M HILL, an environmental engineering consulting
f~rm in Salt Lake City, to analyze · transportation needs in Logan Canyon,
develop alternative plans ' for improvements,' and evaluate the impact of those
plans on the environment in anEIS. The Federal Highway Administration and
the U.S. Forest Service will be cooperating agencies on the ElS, which will
be developed in conformance with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA).
Several public meetings discussing the project have been held. Notification
of other scoping meetings will be . provided ·through the local news media.
Meetings will also be held when the draft ElS is completed to obtain comments
on its contents.
The proposed action would improve U.S. 89 through Logan Canyon from Right
Fork, about 9 miles east of Logan, to Garden City, a distance of approximately
28 miles. This road passes through the Wasatch-Cache National Forest, which
provides scenic and recreational resources. Portions of the highway are a
CH2M HILL
Intermountain Region
Boise 700 Clearwater Lone, P.o. Box 8748, Boise, Idaho 83707
Soft Lake City Associated Plaza, Suite 500, 349 South 200 East
p.o. Box 2218, Soft Lake City, Utah 84101
208.345.5310
801.363.0200
�Page 2
February 13, 1987
B21163.DO
narrow two-lane road with numerous curves and considerable gradient. The
highway is travelled by a significant number of recreational and other large
vehicles, which, along with the road constraints, often results in traffic
delays. Improvements to be considered include widening of the roadway and
shoulders, flattening of curves, replacing and widening of bridges, adjustment
of road gradient, improvement of signing, provision of additional recreational
turn-outs, provision of climbing lanes, and constructing a new road along a new
alignment in selected areas.
The project area can be divided into three sections based on the design characteristics of the road. These sections are: 1) Right Fork to 1.8 miles above
Ricks Spring; 2)1.8 miles above Ricks Spring to Bear Lake Summit; 3) Bear Lake
Summit to Garden City. Different alternatives might be selected for each of
the road sections. Alternatives currently being considered for the project
include: 1) no action; . 2) spot improvements; 3) widening along the existing
alignment; 4) widening and improving the existing alignment; 5) constructing
the road along a new alignment.
A fact sheet providing information about the project will be sent to you in the
next few days. Written comments will be accepted through Monday, April 6.
These should be addressed to:
James Naegle
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, utah 84119
We request that you advise us at the above address by March 1, whether your
office will participate in the scoping process.
Questions may be directed to James Naegle, telephone (801)965-4160, or
CH2M HILL, telephone (801)363-0200.
Stanton
Project Manager
BOC5/026
�lh,j
LOGAN CANYON US-89 FACT SHEET
TENTATIVE ALTERNATIVES FOR THE EIS
L
+ - .s7{o~"f-, '" ~
"'
L
-:J .ec. -'
f'
~
f) .
r
r,
1f - ~P,S
(if
This fact sheet is the third in a series that has been
developed to inform the interested public on the progress of
The previous fact sheets outlined
the scope of the study and reported the result of the transportation needs and traffic volume projections.
This fact
sheet outlines the tentative alternatives that are under
study and provides the means for the public to evaluate the
progress of the study and comment on important environmental
issues and other possible alternatives at the project scoping meetings on March 3 and 4.
The development of alternative plans for the improvement of
U.S. Highway 89 through Logan Canyon is dependent on the
identification of feasible improvements.
"Improvements"
refers to separate actions that can be taken to improve the
road, such as widening, straightening, providing slow car
pull-offs, etc.
"Alternatives" are "combinations of improve-
ments proposed to be applied in specific locations that
would result in a certain level of improvement of the road.
~hese
alternatives and others that may be suggested in the
scheduled scoping meetings may be evaluated for environmental impacts in the Draft Environmental Impact Statement
(EIS).
A preferred alternative will be selected in conjunc-
tion with preparation of the draft EIS.
In the case of Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, feasible
improvements have generally been defined as (1) actions that
will correct problems identified in the previous transportation needs study;
(2) actions that will result in a reason-
able cost to benefit; and (3) actions that will not result
1
./
;
l f-of- C),u~ e5
n,.it A fk h.Nf".
February 1987
the Logan Canyon Study.
I
�in extreme environmental impacts.
u.s.
under study for application to
o
Improvements that are
89 include: "
Widening of the roadway, shoulders, recovery areas
and ditches to normal UDOT standard for minor
arterials in mountainoHs terrain, or to a modified
(narrower) standard that would be less disturbing
to the environment of the canyon.
o
Widening the roadway to provide passing lanes in
all possible or selected areas.
o
Improving the alignment (straightening curves) and
the road gradient (degree of slope) to increase
the minimum design speeds.
o
Developing all new road alignments and gradients
to 40 mph or 50 mph minimum design speeds.
o
Repairing existing major bridges.
o
Replacing major bridges.
o
Replacement of small drainage structures.
o
Developing slow vehicle turnouts.
o
Improvement of signing and pavement markings.
o
Providing recreational parking.
Each of these possible improvements was considered in terms
of the opportunities and constraints posed by the existing
road and Logan Canyon.
2
�It has become obvious during the study of transportation
needs that the roadway
consi~ts
of several sub-sections :.
based on 'the physical characteristics of the terrain.
These
sections, as shown in Figure 1, are:
o
Section 1.
Middle Canyon - Right Fork to 1.8 miles
above Ricks Spring
o
Section 2.
Upper Canyon - 1.8 miles above Ricks
Spring to Bear Lake Summit
o
Section 3.
Rich County - Bear Lake Summit to Garden
City
In the analysis of improvements, certain improvements were
identified as more appropriate to certain sections of the
road than others.
As a result, separate sets of alterna-
tives were developed for each of the three road sections.
These are summarized in the following table.
TENTATIVE ALTERNATIVES
US-89 - LOGAN CANYON
Alternative Designation
Alternative
Categories
A.
B.
C.
D.
No Action
Spot Improvements
Widen Existing Road
Widen and Improve
Existing Road
E. New North Alignment
F. New South Alignment
G. New South Alignment
Section 1
(Middle
Canyon)
Section 2
(Upper
Canyon)
Section 3
(Rich
County)
Al
B1
Cl
A2
B2
A3
B3
Dl
D2
D3
E3
F3
G3
3
�The alternatives proposed for each section of the project
area are descr,ibed below:
Section 1.
Middle Canyon
The Middle Canyon is environmentally the most sensitive section of the project road.
The narrow canyon floor, confined
by steep slopes and the Logan River, limit the road improvements that can be made without substantial affect on visual
quality and other attributes.
The range of alternatives
considered for this section is therefore limited to more
conservative improvements that would provide somewhat limited
benefits to travelers, but that would protect the environmental qualities appreciated here.
AI.
No Action - Routine maintenance including resurfacing
would ' be continued.
Repair of bridges where possible
and improved signing and marking would be made. , Geometric constraints (road width) and winding alignment
would continue to result in a low level (D-E) of service (LOS) on the highway.
B1.
Spot improvements - Turning lanes at intersections,
slow vehicle turnouts where space is currently available, bridge replacement in existing locations, and
improved signing would be carried out in this alternative.
Most geometric constraints and alignment
problems would continue to exist, and the overall level
of service would therefore be unchanged.
C1.
Widening along existing alignment - The current road
would be widened to a standard that is modified from
UDOT's normal standard for a minor arterial in mountainous terrain.
Figure 2 compares these two standards
4
�and the existing roadway width.
lanes would be
provid~d
Additionally, . climbing
in selected areas (specifically
in the Dugway between lower and upper twin bridges);
gradient will be adjusted in selected areas, bridges
would be replaced on the existing or new alignment,
depending on each situation, signing and marking would
be improved and new recreational parking provided.
This alternative would widen the roadway and provide
limited improvement to geometrics, but most alignment
problems would remain.
Improvements to the roadway
width would improve the level of service to LOS C
through 1995, when it would drop to LOS D through 2010.
1D.
Widening and improving the existing alignment - In
addition to the widening and other improvements included
in Alternative 1C, this ' alternative would improve ·the
entire alignment of this section of roadway to . a 35 to
40 mph minimum design speed.
This would be the same
design speed as the improved section of the highway
below Right Fork, which is designed to 40 mph standards
with a few curves at a lower speed.
The more extreme
curves on the road would be softened to achieve this
design speed.
Up to 18 curves of the 51 curves ·would
be modified to attain the 35 mph design speed.
An
additional 12 of the 51 curves would be corrected to
attain a 40 mph design speed.
Geometric and curvature
problems would be improved with this alternative to
raise the level of service to LOS C until the year 1995
when it would drop to LOS D through 2010.
Alternatives that would improve this section to a higher
level ·of service have not been included at this time because
resulting environmental impacts appear to be unacceptable to
most people.
5
�Section 2.
Upper Canyon
While environmental quality is still considerable and important in this section, it does not limit possible improvements to the highway as much as in the Middle Canyon.
A
smaller range of proposed alternatives are therefore necessary for this section.
A2.
No Action - The No Action alternative for this road
section would be the same as described for Section 1.
B2.
Spot Improvements - This alternative would include
installation of turning lanes at major intersections,
straightening of selected curves, installation of slow
vehicle turnouts, provision of new recreational parking, replacement of bridges on the existing or new
alignment, depending on the specific conditions, and
improvement of signing and pavement marking.
Most
alignment constraints will not be improved by this
alternative, and thus level of service will not be
improved.
D2.
Isolated problems will be corrected.
Widen and improve existing alignment - Widening of the
road to UDOT standard for a minor arterial road in
mountainous terrain would be done for the entire length
of this section (see Figure 2).
Climbing lanes would
be provided in all possible areas (upper portions of
this section).
The alignment and gradient would be
improved to 50 or 60 mph minimum design speed.
of the 20 curves would be modified.
Up to 7
Bridges would be
replaced on the existing or an altered alignment,
depending on each case.
Improved signing and marking
and additional recreation parking will be provided.
By
correcting most geometric and alignment problems, this
alternative would maintain the level of service on the
road at Level D through 2010.
6
�Section 3.
Rich County
This section is relatively free of environmental constraints
to road improvement.
The Sunrise campground and Bear Lake
viewpoint near the summit are important features to be protected.
The existing road is below standard in width, has a
number of curves that lower the minimum design speed to
25 mph, and has a steep gradient that also lowers the travel
speed.
Since environmental constraints are not particularly
limiting here, alternatives that would correct only portions
of the problems identified are not seen to be worthwhile.
A3.
No Action - The No Action alternative for this section
would be the same as for Sections 1 and 2.
B3.
Spot Improvements - This alternative would include
installation of turning lanes at major intersections,
straightening of selected curves, installation of slow
vehicle turnouts, provision of new recreational parking, and improvement of signing and pavement markings.
Most alignment constraints will not be improved by this
alternative, and thus level of service will not be
improved.
D3.
Isolated problems will be corrected.
Widen and Improve the Existing Alignment - The entire
route would be widened to UDOT standards for a minor
arterial in mountainous terrain (Figure 1).
A passing
lane would be constructed for the entire length.
The
horizontal and vertical alignment would be straightened
to a minimum design speed of 35 to 40 mph.
Up to 11 of
the 34 curves would be modified to the 35 mph design
speed.
An additional 16 of the 34 curves would be modi-
fied to the 40 mph design speed.
Signing and marking
would be improved, and additional recreational parking
provided.
7
�-
New alignment to the north of the
E3.
New Alignment
F3.
identified, and a new road
existing road road would be "
constructed.
Road width would be based on the UDOT
standard for minor arterials in mountainous terrain
(Figure 2).
A climbing lane would be provided for the
entire length of the route.
Alignment and gradient
would allow a minimum design speed of 40 to 50 mph.
Signing and marking would be improved, and recreational
parking provided as needed.
G3.
New Alignment - A new alignment to the south of the
existing road for a portion of the route would be identified and a new road constructed.
A possible route
that would leave the existing road below the Bear Lake
overlook and rejoin the existing road just below the
residential area has been identified.
Alignment and
gradient has been identified that would allow a minimum
design speed of 40 to 50 mph.
Signing and marking
would be improved and recreational parking provided as
needed.
These alternatives plus any other feasible alternatives
resulting from the scoping meetings on March 3 and 4 may be
evaluated and compared in the environmental impact statement
for the project.
Graphic illustrations of the specific
location of proposed curve improvements, new alignments,
etc., will be presented at the scoping meetings.
may be directed to James Naegle, UDOT
(801)965~4160
Clifford Forsgren, CH2M HILL (801)363-0200.
BOT538/017
SLC95/d.201
8
Questions
or to
�"'-./.
'.---./
BEAVER MOUNTAIN
LOGAN
CANYON
SECTION 3
RICKS SP-RING
UPPER TWIN BRIDGE
LOWER TWIN BRIDGE
CHINA ROW
-~...J-
-""---....~
RIGHT FORK
CARD RANGER STATION
FIGURE 1
STUDY S. CTIONS
E
LOGAN CANYON STUDY
�.~
t:
(1) 5:1 SLOPE
I·VARI:sJ·
5'+
29' MIN 55 MPH
23' TO 25'
24' MIN 50 MPH ·
18' MIN 40 MPH
~~-------..
I
16 ' MIN 35 MPH
~
(2) SLOPE VARIES 1 0: 1 TO 5: 1
(A)
EXISTING
24-29 ' 55 MPH
20 -24' 50 MPH
15 -18' 40 MPH
13-16' 35 MPH
40'
(2')
12'
12'
~~--~~--------~~--------~~----~
~~
RECOVERY
AREA
__________________________________________________~10~:1~
.-<\-?
~~
('
(8) STANDARD
0...0
(HOURLY VOLUME OV ER 250)
-
"""
-- RECOVERY AREA _6' MIN 1100.
CUT DITCH
_5' ....
-,
--
--
34'
12'
--
-?~
~ ?'~
-
~
......
RECOVERY AREA -
-
_1100.
12'
-- _5'_
~
S· "\
~
70:7
(C) MODIFIED STANDARD
FIGURE 2
\ J ~
CYl
TYPICAL SECTIONS
_______________________________________________________________________________
LOGAN CANYON STUDY
L.::"~.WI"
• '-
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/67">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/67</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000.
Checksum
3469863492
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
16261148 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Information about Logan Canyon, February 1987
Description
An account of the resource
Outline for scoping meeting presentation, list of slides and the print media that received legal notice, findings from the Logan Canyon study, goals and objectives of the study, alternatives for development, notice of public scoping meetings (and letter to media), tentative alternatives to improvements, map of sections to be studied, typical sections of existing, standard, and modified standard conditions in Logan Canyon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nuffer, Stanton S.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Traffic engineering
Roads--Design and construction
Logan Canyon Study
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Administrative records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
CH2M Hill (Firm : Salt Lake City, Utah)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1987-02-17
1987-03-03
1987-03-04
1987-02-16
1987-02-12
1987-02-06
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Utah
United States
Rich County (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-1989
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 3
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS148VIIIB27_Fd3_Page_6.pdf
Highway 89;
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/a4dc299f1c4bc05255efd27c1c4e07fa.jpg
53d337f053a0f1d9b9eadd0ff51a5c4c
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2673
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3882
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1079282 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
4/14/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Information Card Providing a Brief History of the U-Pace-O Ranch (Located Near Thistle) on August 25, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
8/25/1983
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 2, Folder 34, Photo 83175-74.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229002034_83175-74_U-Pace-ORanchInfo.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/aaa1aedd2a70e4062e4aae92d93f710e.jpg
e47d60a7057c181d4190fc9626ec85bc
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2670
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3885
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
991677 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
5/15/14
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interior of a Thistle Railroad Diversion Tunnel on November 17, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/17/83
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 3, Folder 7, Photo 83240-7.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229003007_83240-7_ThistleRailroadTunnelInterior.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/3cd23ffc1695fa1059141f361c003553.jpg
914dcf0a954932bbb6990ca564a04bb2
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2685
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3927
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
24-Bit Color
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1042024 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
5/15/14
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interior of the Thistle School Building Ruins on December 13, 1983
Description
An account of the resource
This image documents the Thistle Flood that began in April 1983 with a massive mud slide that created an earthen dam, blocking the flow of the Spanish Fork River. In addition to severing Highway 89 as a transportation route, the dam destroyed the Denver and Rio Grande Western railroad tracks, cutting off the railroad link between Salt Lake and Denver. As flood waters rose, the town of Thistle (located on Highway 89) was inundated with the water that would form Thistle Lake. Massive construction efforts were made between 1983 and 1984 to reconstruct rail and road lines, as well as divert and drain water from Thistle Lake into the nearby Spanish Fork River.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah Department of Transportation
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Disasters--Utah-Spanish Fork Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Color photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/13/83
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Spanish Fork Canyon (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1983-1985
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Official Photographs: Thistle Disaster Documentation, Series 25229, Box 3, Folder 32, Photo 83257-55.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Utah Department of Transportation Thistle Flood photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/25229.html</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
25229003032_83257-55_InteriorThistleSchool.jpg
Environmental Conditions
Natural Disasters
Public Works
Spanish Fork Canyon
Thistle
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/69602fd7bfb7268fbdbeef42a57b5b0d.pdf
6310a5165b69158e658a237df267cc7d
PDF Text
Text
PROJECT INTRODUCTION
STUDY OF U.S. HIGHWAY 89 THROUGH LOGAN CANYON
UTAH DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PURPOSE
The Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) has the responsibility of maintaining all state and federal highways in a
condition that will allow safe transportation. A number of
specific sites along U.S. Highway 89 in Logan Canyon have
been identified by UDOT as requiring repair in the near future to provide safe transportation in the Canyon. Much of
the highway in the Canyon lies within the Cache National
Forest, which is administered by the U.S. Forest Service
(USFS) who must approve all work on the road beyond routine
maintenance. As a result of these currently needed repairs
and other perceived problems, UDOT and USFS have agreed that
an overall transportation plan for the Canyon is necessary
and that a comprehensive study of the possible problems and
needed repairs/improvements should be conducted rather than
examining each site independently as major problems occur.
To begin, UDOT selected CH2M HILL, a consulting firm of
Engineers, Planners, Economists, and Scientists with offices
in Salt Lake City and other communities throughout the country
to conduct the study. Valley Engineering, Inc. of Logan is
a major subcontractor.
This study has three major objectives:
o
To identify locations on the road where problems
in safety, maintenance, road design, and capacity
occur, and to document these problems.
o
To propose several alternative means, through repair
or improvements, to correct the problems.
o
To conduct an analysis of the potential impacts of
the proposed alternatives on the environment.
BACKGROUND
This portion of U.S. 89 has been under scrutiny by UDOT for
some time because of congestion, accidents, and maintenance
problems. The highway has been on UDOT's schedule for improvement since the late 1950s. In 1961, improvements were
made to the road between Logan and DeWitt Springs.
In 1969,
the section between DeWitt Springs and Right Hand Fork was
improved. Pre-design work on improvements between Right
Hand Fork and Ricks Springs was completed in late 1968, but
following passage of the National Environmental Policy Act
1
�(NEPA) in 1969, local concern showed the necessity to reevaluate the project. The Federal Highway Administration
(FHWA) determined in 1972 that an environmental impact statement (EIS) would be required for the project in accordance
with NEPA. At this time, the project consisted of improvements to the road that would result in a 4-lane highway.
Considerable study of the project intended to conclude in a
draft EIS continued until April 1979. The original 4-lane
highway concept was discarded for one that would widen the
pavement from the existing 22 feet to 34 feet, provide a
5-foot cut ditch, and raise the design speed from 35 to
40 miles per hour. As a result of that change, the FHWA
reclassified the project to require only an environmental
assessment rather than a full EIS. Again, local concern
(involving the environmental community), over the reclassification of the project resulted in the FHWA revising its
decision and requiring a full EIS for the project. Changes
to NEPA adopted by Congress in 1977 resulted in revision of
all federal agency guidelines for the preparation of EIS.
UDOT therefore suspended work on the EIS in 1980 to await
the new directives, and is now reactivating the process.
DESCRIPTION OF STUDY
The first task is to analyze travel constraints in the Canyon,
including safety, maintenance costs, points of substandard
design, and congestion. Accident reports will be reviewed
in an attempt to determine the cause, and accident rates
will be compared with those of comparable roads in the state.
Locations with abnormally high maintenance costs will be
evaluated. This analysis will include calculation of permile costs for the entire length of road, identification of
specific sites of unusually high costs, and comparison of
these costs with statewide road maintenance costs. Highway
segments where the road geometrics may be inadequate for the
overall design speed will be inventoried and assessed. Finally, the degree and occurrence of congestion on the road
will be determined by identifying the road capacity and
evaluating current traffic volumes. The level of service
that can be provided on the existing highway in year 2010,
with expected traffic increases, will be projected. A report will be prepared explaining the findings of this part
of the study.
The second task will be to prepare a transportation plan for
the corridor, including up to six alternative concepts. The
alternatives will consider specific repairs or improvement
plans for sites where problems have been identified including
spot improvements, resurfacing, new signing, reconstruction
along the existing alignment, and widening of the existing
2
�roadway between Right-Hand Fork and Garden City. Such
widening might include slow-moving vehicle lanes, passing
lanes, or minor alignment changes. From Bear Lake Summit to
Garden City, the plan will consider the location of two
totally new, alternative routes, one to the north of the
existing road and one to the south. Each alternative will
be evaluated in terms of costs and benefits, including construction costs, reduction of travel time, vehicle and road
maintenance costs, safety, aesthetics, and recreational factors.
General environmental trade-offs and a comparison of engineering requirements for each alternative will also be incorporated into the technical report prepared upon completion of this study task.
Major geologic features of the study corridor will be identified and a geotechnical analysis conducted. A description
of engineering conditions of the soils and geology as they
relate to possible construction and maintenance problems
will result from the analysis. Northern Engineering and
Testing of Salt Lake City is a subcontractor to CH2M HILL
for the geotechnical work.
An environmental analysis will then be conducted. A full
environmental impact statement may ultimately be required.
The environmental analysis will include participation of
interest groups, agencies, and the general public to identify major issues to be investigated in the analysis.
The
analysis will be based on literature review and field studies and will identify possible impacts of each project
alternative and suggest mitigation measures.
SCHEDULE
Work on the project began in June and is expected to be completed by June 1987, with the possible exception of some
public participation activities and completing the environmental analysis. A study task schedule for major work in
each task is provided below.
Task 1
Analysis of Transportation Need
Started early June 1986; complete August 1986
Task 2
Location Studies/Transportation Plan
Begin early August 1986; complete late November
1986
Task 3
Geotechnical Considerations
Begin early September 1986; complete late October
1986
Task 4
Public Involvement
To be conducted throughout study duration
3
�Task 5
Coordination
To be conducted throughout study duration
Task 6
Environmental Analysis
Started June 1986; complete late January 1987
Task 7
Preparation of Documents
Begin early January 1987; complete late May 1987
PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT/AGENCY COORDINATION
A public involvement plan based upon project milestones will
be implemented during the study.
In addition to the program
proposed for each study milestone, the following activities
will occur continuously throughout the study:
o
Maintenance of a Mailing List - all individuals
an~ interest groups requesting mailings will be
included on this list (list available upon request)
o
Local Study Liaison - Valley Engineering, Inc. in
Logan will maintain copies of all informational
material on the study in its Logan office, and
will answer or refer questions to the appropriate
person. CH2M HILL will also perform this service
in its Salt Lake City office
o
Local repositories for study materials will be
arranged at the Logan Public Library, Utah State
University Library, Garden City Municipal Offices,
and Salt Lake City Public Library. All informational materials will also be available at Wasatch/
Cache National Forest offices in Ogden and at the
Utah Department of Transportation offices in Salt
Lake City
MILESTONE 1 - BEGINNING OF PROJECT
o
Study Organization and Data Gathering and the
analysis of transportation needs began in early
June 1986.
o
Interdisciplinary Team Organization - an interdisciplinary team which includes representatives from
UDOT, USPS, FHWA, the environmental community and
CH2M HILL was organized in June 1986.
o
Press Release to be submitted to all media included
on mailing list - week of July 28, 1986.
4
�o
Project Introduction - a detailed written explanation of the history of this study, the reasons for
conducting this study, and the tasks to be conducted, will be mailed to all groups/individuals
included on the mailing list - week of July 28,
1986.
MILESTONE 2 - COMPLETION OF TRANSPORTATION NEEDS ANALYSIS
The analysis and conclusions of this study should be close
to completion by mid August 1986.
o
Press Release to be submitted to all media included
on mailing list - late August 1986.
o
Summary Report of Findings/Fact Sheet will be
mailed to all groups/individuals on mailing list late August 1986.
o
Town Meeting to discuss findings and answer
questions, to be held in Logan - early
September 1986.
o
Meetings With Interest Groups as requested - following town meeting - early September 1986.
o
Written Summary of activities, response, and
issues will be prepared upon completion of ·the
second phase of the public involvement program late September 1986.
MILESTONE 3 - COMPLETION OF ALTERNATIVES DEVELOPMENT
(Prior to environmental impact analysis) - This should occur
near the end of November.
o
Press Release giving brief review of study findings
to date, explaining proposed alternatives, and
reviewing the proposed scoping activities will be
submitted to all media on the mailing list - late
November 1986.
o
Fact Sheet giving detailed explanation of each
alternative with graphic illustration, explanation
of level of service provided by each, and general
advantages and disadvantages, will be sent to each
entry on mailing list - late November 1986.
o
Meetings With Interest/Service Groups expressing
strong interest in the study will be held during
December to discuss the alternatives and identify
their concerns. A maximum of four such meeting
are planned, and as a result some groups might be
requested to meet together. Groups that request
such a meeting might include:
5
�Sierra Club
Utah Wilderness Association
Bridgerland Audubon Society
Rich-Cache Tourist Council
Cache County Chamber of Commerce
Bear River Association of Governments
Bear Lake Convention and Visitors Bureau
Cache Economic Development Council
Civic/Service Clubs
o
Town Meeting will be held in Logan to summarize
alternatives, report on concerns voiced by groups/
individuals, receive testimony on other concerns.
Issues to be addressed in environmental analysis
will be summarized - early January 1987.
o
Press Release reviewing scoping process activities
and issues to be studied in environmental analysis
will be submitted to all media included on mailing
list - mid January 1987.
o
Written Summary of all public involvement activities, response, and issues will be prepared after
the activities of this phase have been conducted late January 1987.
MILESTONE 4 - COMPLETION OF DRAFT ENVIRONMENTAL DOCUMENT
This milestone will occur approximately May 29, 1986.
o
Videotape explaining the alternatives and discussing the environmental tradeoffs will be developed
prior to Milestone 4 to be presented during this
stage - Months of February and March 1987.
o
Summary Report reviewing findings of the draft
analysis will be mailed to all groups/individuals
included on mailing list - early June 1987.
o
Press Release reporting findings of environmental
analysis and schedule for public input/hearings to
be submitted to all media listed in mailing list early June 1987.
o
Workshop Meeting to present videotape, discuss
environmental analysis findings, allow questions
and answers - Logan, late June 1987.
o
Public Hearing to present videotape and receive
testimony on draft environmental analysis - Logan,
July 1987; possible hearing in Ogden or Salt Lake
City, July 1987. Written testimony will be accepted for 30 days after last hearing.
6
�o
Written Summary of all public involvement activities, response, and issues will be prepared after
the activities of Phase 4 have been conducted August 1987.
All aspects of the public involvement program will remain
flexible since it must be responsive to the conduct of the
project and the needs of the community. Public involvement
activities will be announced in all press releases.
Public agencies indicating interest in the study will be
included in the public involvement activities.
In addition
to the U.S. Forest Service and Federal Highway Administration, other public agencies that will be involved in the
study include the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, Bureau
of Air Quality, Bureau of Water Quality, Geological and
Mineral Survey, and Division of State History.
STUDY ORGANIZATION
In addition to personnel from CH2M HILL and Valley Engineering,
Inc., an interdisciplinary team has been established to provide
input and recommendations throughout the course of the study.
Study team members are listed below.
Team Leader
Stan Nuffer
CH2M HILL
Commission Representative
Todd Weston
Utah Dept. of Transportation
Highway Preconstruction
Engineer
Lynn Zollinger
Utah Dept. of Transportation
Environmental Engineer
John Neil
Utah Dept. of Transportation
Transportation Planning
Stan Nuffer
CH2M HILL
Recreation
Fred Labar
USFS, Logan
Geotechnical
Allan Stilley
Northern Engineering & Testing
Public Involvement
Sheldon Barker
CH2M HILL
Representative a of the
Environmental Community
Jack Spence
Sierra Club
7
�Landscape Architecture
Clark Ostergaard
Wasatch/Cache Nat'l. Forest
Fisheries Biologist
Mark Shaw
Wasatch/Cache Nat'l. Forest
Ex-Officio
Duncan Silver
FHWA
aAlternate Environmental Community Representatives:
Rudy Lukez
Torn Lyon
Steve. Flint
Bill Helm
Sierra Club
Utah Wilderness Association
Bridgerland Audubon Assoc.
Unattached
QUESTIONS
Stan Nuffer
Sheldon Barker
Cliff Forsgren
CH2M HILL, Salt Lake City
(801) 363-0200
Contact:
Gale Larson
Valley Engineering Inc., Logan
(801) 753-0153
SLC79/d.402
8
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/13">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/13</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000.
Checksum
2928040318
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
5086727 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Introduction to Highway 89 study
Description
An account of the resource
An 8 page project introduction by the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) that outlines the purpose of the Logan Canyon study, listing three main objectives.
the backgroud and description of the Logan Canyon study
a schedule, including a list of seven outlined tasks
a section on public involvement and agency coordination that includes four milestones
a list of team members
and contact information.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah. Department of Transportation
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
CH2M Hill (Firm : Salt Lake City, Utah)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Logan Canyon (Utah)
United States Highway 89
Utah
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Administrative records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Utah. Department of Transportation
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1905-06-08
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Utah
United States
Cache County (Utah)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-1989
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 133 Box 10 Folder 6
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv07669">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv07669</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS133Bx10_Item_6.pdf
Highway 89;
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/ebf49ee20fb6f696bcac534285f6bada.jpg
203879191b36570f2bc18af17b6315e6
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/198">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/198</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-11-02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
J.C. Ellsworth family and Fred Jacobsen family at the Girls' Camp, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1920s
Description
An account of the resource
J.C. Ellsworth family and Fred Jacobsen family at the Girls' Camp in Logan Canyon. Black and white photograph (4 x 5 in)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Camp Lomia (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Ellsworth, J.C.--Family--Photographs
Jacobsen, Fred--Family--Photographs
Right Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Camp Lomia (Utah)
Right Hand Fork (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1920-1929
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Ellsworth Family Photograph Collection, 1860-1999, P0142 8:095
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Ellsworth Family photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv18179">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv18179</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Ellsworth Family Photograph Collection, 1860-1999, P0142
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
P01428095
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1920s
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/6e2b8448d52c52ed4814d360bb63d48d.jpg
2da1dd5e0e300566da33396cbd70a319
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
2200
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
2899
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
400
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
Checksum
0xC7AB522F
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
3679.114 KB
Conversion Specs
iQsmart3 Kodak
Oxygen Scan v.2.4.1
attributes: jpg, 400dpi
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2008-03
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/GeorgeBeard/id/140">http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/GeorgeBeard/id/140</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jackson Lake Dam of Jackson Lake, Wyoming at Moran in Teton County, Idaho
Description
An account of the resource
A dam, and a building on the shore of Jackson Lake in Teton County, Wyoming.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Beard, George, 1855-1944
Subject
The topic of the resource
Buildings
Dams--Wyoming
Jackson Lake (Teton County, Wyo.)
Jackson Lake Dam (Wyo.)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1910-1919
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jackson Lake (Wyoming), Teton County (Wyoming)
Jackson Lake Dam (Wyoming)
Wyoming
United States
43.8578553 -110.5898451
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1910-1919
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, MSS P-3 # 142
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Public domain, Courtesy L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
George Beard Photograph Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS_P_3_0142.jpg
Buildings
Dams
Highway 89
Jackson Lake
Jackson Lake Dam
Wyoming
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/3dbc601e5e2abca8667cd716575d042d.pdf
0669fae822a03f00a08bb1292c284cdb
PDF Text
Text
�JACKSON LAKE LODGE
GRAND TETON NATIONAL PARK
WYOMING
Built on the heights overlooking the
sparkling waters of Jackson Lake in
which are mirrored the rugged peaks of
the Teton Range, this new and modern
lodge offers every accommodation to
the visitor.
C7274
~
Kodachrome Reproduction by Mike Roberts for
Intermountain TouristSupply, Inc., Salt Lake Cityl, Utah
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1852">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1852</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2203
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3415
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
600
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
RGB
Checksum
3553772539
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
8290656 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jackson Lake Lodge postcard, ca. 1950
Description
An account of the resource
Jackson Lake Lodge, Grand Teton National Park, postcard, ca. 1950.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roberts, Michael
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Teton National Park (Agency : U.S.)
Tourism
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographic postcards
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Intermountain Tourist Supply, Inc.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Grand Teton National Park (Wyoming)
Wyoming
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University. Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 WY 030
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
P0031_Bx1WY_030
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/c07ad35f7e65eb386aa304d4eabf7355.jpg
efd7fe061e8b8dc59782d572dbd3b091
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
2171
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
3265
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
400
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
Checksum
0xA173BF54
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
3394.731 KB
Conversion Specs
iQsmart3 Kodak
Oxygen Scan v.2.4.1
attributes: jpg, 400dpi
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2008-03
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/GeorgeBeard/id/1372">http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/GeorgeBeard/id/1372</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jackson Lake, Wyoming
Description
An account of the resource
Tree, lake, snow capped mountains in the distance.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Beard, George, 1855-1944
Subject
The topic of the resource
Trees
Lakes
Snow
Mountains
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1890-1899
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jackson Lake (Wyoming), Teton County (Wyoming)
Wyoming
United States
43.929382 -110.678822
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1890-1899
19th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, MSS P-3 # 1390
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Public domain, Courtesy L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
George Beard Photograph Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS_P_3_1390.jpg
Highway 89
Jackson Lake
Lakes
Mountains
Snow
Trees
Wyoming
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/2b8e1c1a35823b1c82bbb6a82eb0e9b6.jpg
85ca5e706c339a0fa61049c65d274274
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2805
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3580
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1277552 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi); display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-08-29
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jacobs Lake Inn road sign in Kane County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
Kane County (Utah)
United States Highway 89
Roads--Signs
Advertising
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-12-16
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 009.00 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Kane County (Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 5. Folder 4.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959005004_JacobsLake.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/5d42e9411fe17f9fd3872bea921a6da6.mp3
3cebf608b6ac4373b04f76c89d8ed02d
https://highway89.org/files/original/73a6931bb0b2e17df2147c0682e319b9.pdf
d833298321ba77377d1b2e6270e11701
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Janet Quinney Lawson
Place of Interview: Ms. Lawson’s home; Salt Lake City, Utah
Date of Interview: April 28, 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Brad Cole and Barbara Middleton
Brad Cole
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Brad Cole, February 2009; Randy Williams, 25 February 2009 and
14 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012
Brief Description of Contents: Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at
her family’s summer home at Bear Lake and at family members’ homes in Cache Valley, Utah.
She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah and in Cache Valley and
Bear Lake.
Reference:
BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries)
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JL = Janet Quinney Lawson
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 2: A]
BM:
[This is Barbara Middleton of the] Natural Resources at Utah State University. [I am]
here with Brad Cole. Cole [interviewer] is the Director of Special Collections at USU
Libraries. And we are here with Janet Quinney Lawson in her home in Salt Lake City, on
a beautiful spring day. This is Monday, April 28th [2008] and it’s about 2-2:15 in the
afternoon.
So Janet, if you would please say your full name and when and where you were born.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
1
�JL:
My full name is Janet Quinney Lawson. And I was born here in 1922 at the LDS
Hospital, as I recall.
BM:
In Salt Lake City?
JL:
Uh-huh. I guess I was born there.
BM:
Can I ask you, just to start off would you be willing to share the earliest memories of
your father?
JL:
Yeah, I was kind of scared of him! He was not a child’s best friend or “daddy.” He was
stern and he lived and he made you kind of tow the mark. As I grew older I began to
appreciate him. He was a superman. I used to run the rivers with him.
BC:
What was his name?
JL:
My father?
BC:
Yes.
JL:
S. J. Quinney. Seymour Joseph Quinney.
BM:
And running rivers – what kind of rivers are we talking about?
JL:
Oh! Colorado and Hell’s Canyon and all the rivers of the west. We used to run them in
row boats. It was great fun; I loved it. And we would do that and pull out wherever we
pulled out. I know I went down the river when I was – gosh, I guess six months or more
pregnant with Peter (my youngest son). But I didn’t tell Dad and I wore, you know a
blouse that hung out. And he didn’t even [know]. He wondered, I think he said, on
occasions. But boy when I told him driving out of Preston, poor father! It was a real
blow! Now he wanted to know if Fred knew, and I said, “Well of course.” “Did your
mother know?” and I said, “Yes.” “Did she approve?” I said, “Sure she did, she thought I
was alright to do that.” And I loved it! It was great fun and I didn’t have any problem.
We went down Hell’s Canyon and came out at Preston maybe?
BC:
Maybe Lewiston area?
JL:
Yeah! Way up there –
BC:
Right.
JL:
On the Oregon – yeah we pulled out there and then we drove home. We brought a car the
bank had repossessed up in Preston, I guess, or some place for Aunt Eve who was
Bammie Eccles’ sister and never had any children and so she adopted all of Bammie’s
children and all of her grandchildren. And we were very close and she used to stay at our
house. Her husband was an engineer on the railroad and so he was out of town a lot. And
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
2
�she used to come up and stay with Bammie in Logan. Then she would come back here
and she would come up to the house. She lived out on the west side way out by Wasatch
High School and then she’d come in and up to the house and stay. And it was great fun,
she was a lovely person. She finally devoted a lot of her time to Bammie up in Logan –
she wasn’t really sick but anyway, she was getting old (in those days). They were half
sisters – same father, different mothers. So that’s what we did.
BM:
So speaking of mothers, what is your earliest memory of your mom?
JL:
My word! [Speaking to herself] Earliest memory [of] mom.
I don’t know! I guess running a pretty tight ship when I was little and not even in school
yet. But I had a friend – a life-long friend that lived across the street: Kay Henderson.
She was my dear friend. We used to go to school together. She’d go with us. She came
from a rather upbeat, youngest Dr. Dave’s family who was an eye, ear, nose and throat
[doctor] in Salt Lake. Kay and I – well we just plain grew up together. She didn’t have
quite as athletic of a background. She did fine, but she came from a family of kind of a
bunch of kids and they couldn’t spend the money for ski clothing and so on. We
remained friends all through our lives. She died three years ago in Cape Cod. It was a
good, long-standing relationship I must say.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
And it was fun to go over there because it was a big family. And I had only my brother
Dave who couldn’t be bothered much with me which was fine. But growing up in the
neighborhood but it was fun.
BM:
Was she someone that went with you when you traveled to Bear Lake or Logan?
JL:
Kay?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
Oh yeah! She went to Bear Lake. Every year she would come up and go with us. They
were sort of, you know, more religious. Her mother didn’t like her to miss church, but she
did. My mother would talk her into it and say that she could go to church at Bear Lake. I
don’t remember if she ever did or not. Maybe we did a few times. I can’t remember
really. That wasn’t one of my great points in growing up.
BM:
Would you tell us a little bit about some of your early memories of Bear Lake and
traveling over there?
JL:
Oh. Wow. First thing that happened was that we had a seven passenger Buick. Now that’s
a pretty big car and it had little jumpseats. But we always had our dog, Tip, and I had the
cat, Tawny, and three kittens usually. And we would pile into the car and we’d chug
along and go up to Logan. And then we’d spend the night at Bammie’s house—Bammie
Eccles’ not Bammie Quinney’s—but Bammie Eccles’. Then we’d get up the next
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
3
�morning and mother would drive us [o]n that old, broken down road that was a one-way
road really, you know. People just didn’t go up to Bear Lake that way except people in
Logan maybe, but we did! We’d go up there and haul in.
That time we stayed up in Idaho – my first recollection of staying at Bear Lake was in
Idaho. Mother rented the Gray house. Mr. Gray was the First Security Bank’s president in
Montpelier, Idaho. Yeah, that’s how it was. He was there and we rented this house
because by now they’d fallen upon hard times, then they went through a depression. The
bank went bust, or whatever. It was kind of tough. But anyway, we rented that house for
quite a few years. Then mother went out buzzing around one day and the next thing she
did was come home and say, “I bought a house.”
So down at Ideal Beach was a house that was owned by a Mr. Boyer who was a very
successful (I don’t know what he was!) man – businessman. That went kind of belly-up
and he had to sell the house. And here was this house that was completely furnished,
lock, stock and barrel–silver and china and bedding and more bedding. And then Dad
bought the lot, finally he talked Sister Boyer (maybe; Sister somebody) – and he sweettalked her. On part of that lot there was a lumber mill. And they’d cut the logs which was
fine except all the sawdust they pushed into the lake. Well that doesn’t deteriorate really.
So we had many years where every time we’d go down everybody would take a bucket of
some sort. And we’d haul out the logging –
BM:
Sawdust?
JL:
Yeah. Well finally we got rid of it, I guess. Of course that was many a year ago. Mother
came home and Dad nearly had a fit! But what she got that house for was—lock, stock
and barrel. I think it was something like $800. It was just ridiculous! And it was the
house we had. Dad, finally when Mother told him and he went to see what was going on,
he knew the piece of ground. I don’t know what he did. A lawyer did that as a “Thank
you very much people.” And so he was in good standing with the locals.
They just got out and they cut that house in three parts and they moved it! And it wasn’t
out that much. It was just amazing! I remember when they did it and I remember Mother
went up to Bear Lake. And that fireplace of course was stone from across the lake. It was
a big hole because they had to knock it down when they moved the house. So all Mother
could see was this hole and oh she went into great sobs of mourning that the house would
never be the same. Well of course it is the same and much better, and added on to, to
some degree. We added on—we changed the kitchen quite a bit and added another
bedroom and bath back there because Mother always had somebody to go to help. That
extended the kitchen on out further and behind the kitchen was another bedroom.
BM:
Um-hmm. Now Ideal Beach is – when I look at this map – Ideal Beach is south of the
Junction coming over to Garden City, but you were saying you were north to start off
with?
JL:
Oh no, no, no. Here we are. Let’s see. [Looking at a map]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
4
�BM:
Here’s Ideal.
JL:
Here’s Ideal. We’re down there to – what does that say?
BM:
That says Ideal Beach, Sweet Water Marina. So they’re just showing –
JL:
There, yeah well here’s –
BM:
That’s the Highway rest stop down there. So right around Rendezvous Beach State Park,
which is very historic.
JL:
Yeah. We moved it down about 2 miles that way and about one mile from Garden City.
BM:
My goodness! And you literally picked up the house and moved it?
JL:
Yeah, it was just crazy what they did!
BC:
About what year was that, do you remember?
JL:
Well I can think, but wait a minute. Let’s see – I think I was 16 maybe; 15 or 16. Yeah,
so how old would that make me? Since I’m 86.
BC:
So it would have been about 1937.
JL:
Yeah, something.
BC:
You said you spent a few years in Montpelier [Idaho]? Would that have been in the early
1930s? When you lived in Montpelier and rented Mr. Gray’s house?
JL:
No, that was in Fish Haven!
BC:
Fish Haven?
JL:
Down on the lake. That was their summer home!
BC:
Oh, okay. So he lived in Montpelier, but also had a house [on the lake] – okay.
JL:
Yeah they lived in Montpelier – Banker Gray – and had a beautiful home there. And
there was Grove and Fred. Fred was the oldest son, then they had Grove and then they
had a sister. What was her name? She was a cripple; she was born with faulty legs or
something, I don’t remember what. She was a lovely person but she was certainly
incapacitated. Times were hard. They opened up this fox farm in Fish Haven—Grove and
Fred. Fred first and then he went off and went into business and then Grove took it over.
And they raised these [foxes], they were a big thing in those days I guess.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
5
�BM:
And they were fox they were raising?
JL:
Yeah, they were foxes.
BM:
And what were they raising them for?
JL:
For the fur.
BM:
Okay. How interesting.
JL:
Yeah, they really would. Fur coats; not really coats so much, it would take too many
foxes. Oh, I remember. I never went down there though when they were slaughtering the
foxes. That was not my cup of tea. Nor go out – yeah I did. I went out with them when
they would go buy an old horse that was tired and slaughter it to feed the foxes. And of
course you had to be down there every day. They had to eat. It was fun, I liked it. It’s
nothing anybody else would like, but I did. Getting all bloody! Mother used to just shake
her head and say, “My goodness, what have I got here?” See I was a little, bitty kid. I
wasn’t very big at all. I mean structurally I was very small, but boy I was a terror I guess!
Poor thing.
BM:
Now did you go over there winter as well as summer?
JL:
Huh-uh. No, never did.
BM:
So mostly summer?
JL:
Yeah. What we usually did was plan to go up there on, well around the 4th of July and
then we’d close it up to some degree and get somebody to come in and drain the water;
which we still do. But things are changing up there; very definitely changing. And I can
envision–we’re not building anymore house. Rick was talking, I know, about building on
to the bedroom wing and putting in another few bedrooms and a bath. I think we kind of
decided that wasn’t a good plan. Anyway, I don’t think it’s happening, and it’s not my
problem. I’m not going to be here to run that.
BM:
So when you say, “things are changing up there,” what do you mean? What kinds of
things did you see change?
JL:
Oh! Oh the building is simply incredible that’s going on. And across the street and on up
Hodge’s Canyon it’s all subdivided and people are building houses up on the hillside.
And then they come down and go probably over to Ideal Beach, Bluewater Beach and go
on to swim or put their boats in or whatever they have.
BM:
Was that something that you did when you were a child, boating?
JL:
Yeah. Dad had the only sailboat on the lake I guess, for years. And then we also had an
outboard motor boat and then we got – well, let’s see. What have we got up there now?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
6
�Peter has a Hobie Cat up there. (Peter is my youngest son.) And he has this Hobie Cat
and he also has – yeah I think he’s got a motor boat too.
BM:
So sailing was something that you learned from your father?
JL:
What?
BM:
Sailing was something you learned from your father?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Did your mother also sail?
JL:
No, she didn’t. That wasn’t her cup of [tea]– she’d go out there sometimes with Dad.
They’d go out alone and just sail. Dad would sail very quietly, not too far out from the
shore. But, yeah she went out boating. She went out boating – I had a boat too. That was
a power boat. You know that lake isn’t constant. It varies – they pumped it out for
irrigation upstream. Well, they don’t want it anymore upstream. Anyway, last year they
pumped because the pumps would run out of – there was no water for them. And now
they’re going to let that go back. They’ve sold it to, I don’t remember the name of the
people they sold it to, but they are not interested in alfalfa which is what they used the
water for.
[Looking out the window] Oh, whoa. Looking out there at the sky, can you see?
BM:
Oh yeah; leaving a jet trail.
JL:
You see that? Yeah. Big old thing going across.
Dad had a lot of foresight. However people don’t know and we don’t tell them that we
have as much land as we have. But we’re well-protected on the north side and the south
side of our property. And it of course goes to the children and I guess they like it. I think
they’ll use it.
[Speaking to somebody else] Who’s that?
BM:
Sounds like somebody is talking on the phone.
JL:
Maybe.
And I don’t know, I just had some rare old times and fun times up there; very happy
memories. It [Bear Lake property] has this great, big screened-in porch that goes all
around half the house and the dining room table is outside. And there is a couch out there
and Grandfather Eccles’ rocking chair, old leather rocking chair. It just has lots of
memories. We have a book that we keep and people write in it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
7
�BM:
Like the visitors that come?
JL:
Yeah, yeah. And it’s nice and it’s fun. And it’s fun to look back and it’s fun to look and
see when I decided I better go home is when I was going to have that baby. And I did.
BM:
[Laughing] Now which child was that then?
JL:
It was Peter.
BM:
Peter? Okay.
JL:
Yeah. See, he’s 10 years younger. He was really an after-thought. He wasn’t a
happenstance – he was planned on and conceived. And he went down Hell’s Canyon with
me unborn. I didn’t tell Mother about it. I told Dad about it on the way home. And he
said, “Does your mother know?” And I said, “Yeah.” He said, “I thought you were
looking a little dumpy.” Yeah, that was May and Peter was born in August. Yeah, I was
well along. I didn’t care, that was fun. I skied and I did everything!
BM:
Could you tell us a little bit about your skiing?
JL:
Well –
BM:
Where did you start?
JL:
There is Ecker Hill up Parley’s Canyon; Dave and Dad got involved in that through the
jumping. Dad got interested in judging and got interested in the Norwegian people and he
judged all the time up there, ski-jumping. And that is how Dave got going. I didn’t ever
go off Ecker Hill—I was too little. I went off Rasmussen’s Hill which was down the way.
But heavens! I didn’t even have bindings then. I think we took inner tubes and cut them
and put them around the toe and around the outside of the toe and around the back. Those
were our bindings. That was many a year ago!
BM:
That was inner tubing on wood?
JL:
Well the inner tubing I used for bindings –
BM:
Oh!
JL:
BM:
They were like the old wood skis with a toe strap. That was it. And then you got a hold of
that and then you got a hold of the inner tube and cut a piece about that thick and put it
over your toe and over the toe of your boot and back over your heel and off you went on
Rasmussen’s Jump. And it was a scaffold that was built and came down and landed on
the hill and ran out. Oh, it was fun!
How did you get up to the top?
JL:
Climbed.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
8
�BM:
On snowshoes or boots?
JL:
No, no. We just climbed on our feet on the little hill I jumped. But the boys, the big
jumpers – Al Bangerter and his tribe and us – they just put their skis over their shoulder
and walked up to the top.
BM:
Hmm.
JL:
Boy am I thirsty. Do you want some water or something?
BM:
Actually, I’m fine.
BC:
I’m fine right now.
JL:
Are you? Alright.
BM:
So those are the days before ski lifts and riding on top of the mountain.
JL:
Dad did the first lift in Alta – Collins lift – he did that. I mean when I say he did it – he
got 10 business friends of his to each put in x number of dollars (which I don’t know).
Ecker Hill was there, but it was pretty rough and I think they used it, but not for
tournaments and things. But he did. They built that and set it up. Now how does that
work? I was thinking that it was the biggest ski jump in North America. Whether it was
there or whether it was – I don’t know – in the Northwest. I don’t know. I would have to
research that and look it up. But there wasn’t an awful lot of ski jumping even.
But then I got my first pair of skis. I was little – I didn’t grow very much.
[Tape 1 of 2: B]
JL:
Celeste can get you something. These caregivers I have are just wonderful.
BM:
Oh, I bet. It’s nice to have people here.
JL:
Yeah. Well I didn’t have them here except during the day, but then I fell a year ago in
Moab and cracked it!
BM:
So now you have someone with you day and night.
JL:
I have somebody, yeah. I have two of them that are here day and night.
BM:
That’s great.
JL:
Yeah it is! I like it and they seem to like it, so.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
9
�BM:
JL:
So let’s go back to something you were saying. I am trying to picture the trip when you
were a young girl from, not just Salt Lake to Logan, but Logan over –
To Bear Lake?
BM:
-- to Bear Lake. I’m trying to picture that road.
JL:
Well at first it was even just a dirt road. Mother in the seven passenger car and the cat and
the dog and a couple of kittens and Dave and I was there and BM was there I guess (or
some household help). And we’d go to Logan and stay overnight at Bammie’s house –
Grandmother Eccles’ house – and go chuckety, chuckety, chuck the next day. And
sometimes your old car would heat up and you would have to sit there and wait for it to
cool down so you could go on [laughing]. But we always stopped at Rick Springs.
BM:
Oh, sure!
JL:
That was very different then than it is now. Because, I don’t know what they’ve done but
you can’t even hardly see it without getting out and walking! Well, I mean it wasn’t that
way in those days.
BM:
So you got there and you parked your car, and what did you do at Ricks Springs?
JL:
Oh, we’d have a drink or have a sandwich or have some water. It was just halfway and it
was good and it was fun and it was nice. And we always did that. Now I flew past – well
I haven’t been up through Logan Canyon because it’s been all under construction and a
mess. And then going in Roy into Ogden – that highway is just one big, bloody mess and
I haven’t gone there. I don’t when that’s ever going to get done. And I don’t know when
they’re going to quit monkeying with that road up the canyon.
BM:
Well they just did some bridge improvements, and that was quite –
JL:
Oh yeah.
BM:
-- quite a bit as far as stopping traffic one-way, and.
JL:
Yeah, because that one bridge goes over a great, big –
BM:
Oh, that’s the large one on the curve?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
And I don’t know. I haven’t been up Logan Canyon—I don’t remember if I even went up
last year because I just get on and zoom up here to Evanston and then-
BM:
So that’s your new route?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
10
�JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Over 80 to Evanston and then up?
JL:
BM:
Um-hmm.
Um-hmm. Now when you went through the earlier part when you went through Logan
Canyon, did you ever go to some of the places like Ephraim’s Grave (the big bear), or ?
JL:
Uh-huh. And they had, what an MIA Home or something?
BM:
What is that?
JL:
Up at the first dam or something?
BM:
Oh!
JL:
No, second dam I guess. And we used to cross the bridge and go up there and there was –
I don’t know and MIA. Maybe it wasn’t, maybe it was something else. I don’t know.
BM:
Hmm.
JL:
But anyway it was a camp and the kids used to go up there for, you know, camping out –
like Girl Scouts, only they were something else in those days.
BC:
So when you say, “MIA,” do you mean Mutual Improvement Association?
JL:
Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. [Mostly likely talking about Camp Lomia, past 3rd Dam a few
miles.]
BM:
So was that possibly the Scout Camp at St. Anne’s?
BC:
Might be, I’m not sure.
JL:
What?
BM:
Was it St. Anne’s?
JL:
What ?
BM:
The camp you’re talking about?
JL:
I don’t know.
BM:
Hmm. It was on the right hand side as you go up the canyon?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
11
�JL:
You went over the dam there, which they used, and the water that came out of there they
dammed it up. So, I don’t know what it was called. And besides it’s all different now.
Utah State has that big forestry place up there too.
BM:
Um-hmm. Have you been there?
JL:
Yeah. That’s Mr. Dad’s. I said, “Now you quit that!” He said, “Wouldn’t you rather have
me interested in it than somebody else?” I said, “Yes I would.”
BM:
So this is the forestry camp?
JL:
BM:
Uh-huh.
That’s on the right-hand side as you go up.
JL:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And was the – let’s see was it 1938 was the first summer camp up there? 1936?
Somewhere in that time?
JL:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And so what is your dad have to do with that?
JL:
Well, he gave them the money to start the training camp up there.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JL:
And bring the animals and so on.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
So that’s what he did.
BM:
It is a very important place for a lot of the foresters to get their start.
JL:
Oh I think so.
BM:
Yeah.
JL:
A lot of foresters. Um-hmm.
BM:
Also fire. As far as training young men to help with forest fires.
JL:
Now, that I didn’t know. But that’s interesting. It’s a good place, should be.
BM:
Yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
12
�JL:
I don’t know why I don’t. I think they have one cabin up there that they save for Dad and
Mother or for me or somebody to go up and stay overnight. I think I told somebody; who
would I have told –
BM:
Was it Thad maybe?
JL:
Uh-huh, probably Thad.
BM:
So you have gone up and camped up at the Forestry Camp?
JL:
Yeah!
BM:
Oh, alright. Because there is one building that is the older building.
JL:
Yeah!
BM:
With all the pictures in it and the stove –
JL:
Right, right.
BM:
Okay.
JL:
What’s that called?
BM:
Well that is the old Forestry Camp CCC building.
JL:
Oh yeah.
BM:
And it’s the oldest building –
JL:
There.
BM:
It’s one of the oldest buildings there. And then there’s a larger dorm, which sleeps about
30 people.
JL:
There?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
Yeah, that’s right. I do remember that.
BM:
Do you also remember – you know, part of that camp burned.
JL:
Oh, it certainly did! I had forgotten that. It really burned.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
13
�BM:
The kitchen – the lodge.
JL:
Oh, that was – they had to rebuild it totally didn’t they?
BM:
We haven’t rebuilt it yet.
JL:
Oh, I thought we had.
BM:
No, not yet. We’re looking, we’re hoping. We’re hoping. But right now it’s an open area;
there’s a small trailer that was there that serviced some of the work, but nothing like the
beautiful lodge that you must remember.
JL:
Yeah, although it was –
BM:
The dining hall –
JL:
Yeah. It was kind of little, as I recall.
BM:
Was it?
JL:
Yeah, it wasn’t like – in comparison to maybe the Girl Scout camp down here or –
BM:
Camp Cloud Rim?
JL:
Rim.
BM:
Right, right.
JL:
Camp Cloud Rim.
BM:
Which was also a CCC building.
JL:
Well I guess those lakes [cabins?] were owned by people, you know. They weren’t just
sitting there. I’m trying to think who – John Wallace; the Wallace family had up there.
And the Brimhall family; and I don’t know. Of course they gave it over to the Girl Scouts
and now they use it and have added onto it even since I was there.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
For the dedication of the building or whatever.
BM:
And that was back in the late 1990s.
JL:
I guess, yeah.
BM:
Um-hmm.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
14
�JL:
I guess it was.
BM:
Yeah.
JL:
Did they name it for me or something?
BM:
They did! Your name is on that building. [The Janet Quinney Lawson camp?]
JL:
I just live in horror.
[Laughing]
JL:
I say, “I’m giving you the money and you’re to go ahead, but don’t be putting my name.”
There it was.
BM:
[Laughing] It’s on a building on campus too, up at Utah State.
JL:
Yes it was! What was it – oh that little Quonset hut. Yeah! That’s a great place.
BM:
That’s a great building though. [Ms. Lawson was recognized by USU in 2004 during the
dedication of a building named in her honor. The Janet Quinney Lawson building houses
USU's Utah Climate Center and Remote Sensing/Geographic Information Systems
Laboratory along with other services.]
JL:
Oh, it is! I’ve been there when little kids have been there. One of them really attached
himself to me; poor little things.
BM:
Was that the Adaptive Technology part where they’re in the basement there?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Is there a lot of children in that program?
JL:
Yeah that are learning to speak or walk, or – yeah, they’re physically limited.
BM:
Right.
JL:
But it’s a great thing that they can do what they’re doing in that Quonset hut.
BM:
Um-hmm. And they help a lot of children get around.
JL:
Oh, I know. I just know they do. And that cute thing out in front of the Edith Bowen – is
it the Edith Bowen and Emma Eccles Jones, are they here?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
15
�BM:
They are. Emma Eccles Jones Building is the education building and then Edith Bowen is
the lab school, which is right next door.
JL:
Yeah. Is it west or is it –?
BM:
Edith Bowen is east –
JL:
Yeah, it’s east –
BM:
And then there is a sculpture –
JL:
Yeah, that’s a Van Dam
BM:
Right, right. With the two children and then the –
JL:
Yeah, then, uh-huh. And then Aunt Em’s building.
BM:
Right.
JL:
Dad’s building is there too; Dad and Mother’s.
BM:
Well that would be the College of Natural Resources building.
JL:
That’s right.
BM:
Right, right. And that’s right behind, that’s right to the south –
JL:
South.
BM:
Of your Quonset hut, that you call it.
JL:
That’s right. Well, that’s what it is!
BM:
It is! And you know there are still folks that come on campus that say, “I remember when
that was a Quonset hut.” And it kind of still looks like a Quonset hut!
JL:
I think it does. Yeah, I do.
BM:
It has the remote sensing lab in it now; where they do a lot of the geographic maps.
JL:
Oh there?
BM:
Um-hmm. There are several entities in that building.
JL:
Besides the little kids?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
16
�BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
Oh. Well I just know that those little children – it’s wonderful when they can finally get
them out. They’re kind of timid about everything of course, because they’ve been so
protected; but, what a break for the parents and the children themselves to be able to get
out.
BM:
And it’s also a great training center for the students.
JL:
Terrific! Just marvelous!
BM:
There are a lot of classes that go through there.
JL:
Well there’s kind of a lot of Eccles/Quinney stuff up there somehow.
BM:
There sure is! Now speaking of USU and getting back to Bear Lake – if you’re down
near Ideal Beach, aren’t you also close to the USU –
JL:
Yes! That Dad built?
BM:
Oh!
JL:
I think Dad built that – gave them the money to build it. Yeah, it’s just down, maybe, oh,
maybe three-quarters of a mile on the road.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
But you can walk it. Of course now let’s hope that they’ll be good enough to – can’t I get
you anything? I feel so –
BM:
No, I’m fine.
JL:
I feel terrible. [Ms Lawson is concerned for her guest’s needs.]
BC:
Oh, we’re fine.
BM:
When you were there, you talked about sailing and you talked about swimming. Were
there also holidays, like Raspberry Days?
JL:
Oh yes! And I remember when the raspberries weren’t [growing] because they got
diseased! A few years ago actually, that was. Oh yes, indeed!
BM:
Hmm. So what did you do for Raspberry Days?
JL:
Bought them and ate them.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
17
�[Laughing]
BC:
Well did they have – when you were a little girl, did they have raspberries then? Or did
that came later?
JL:
No, I think that came later. I think that was started by the Hodges family and their boys.
And they planted those and then psh! I don’t know what happened. They got a disease
though, and it really – it was something they couldn’t spray and kill and have it alright. It
imbedded itself and would appear on the next year if you planted them. So, I don’t know.
And now – I don’t know what they’re doing now. They’re behind that – what’s that
called? That new place by the marina, only on the other side of the road?
BM:
Oh that large development?
JL:
Yeah. And then on up and up and up and up. Yeah. And that’s all being subdivided. And
honestly I think Bear Lake is seeing the best of times. It’s – I’m concerned. I think it’s
just going to develop and develop and more and more and more. And people are able to
get there and they’re building houses. I don’t know, Well, I’ve got enough space that I
don’t need to worry too much about it.
BM:
When you were over there before the development, do you remember cattle or sheep, or –
with those hills where the homes are going – what was that landscape like?
JL:
Yeah. They ran cattle up Hodges Canyon.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
They could run cattle up there. And they did and I don’t know whether they still can or
just don’t do it because nobody’s interested in doing that kind of thing. All those people
died; faded away. Although Rula is here and Dolly is here. And Dolly has died and Rula
– Dad bought the piece that goes in front of Rula’s house is on that side. And she – what
did they do? They finally got her to go over to Logan to live in a place, a house, a rest
home or something in the winter. Because they said they wouldn’t leave her up there in
the winter anymore, she couldn’t navigate. So I don’t know. I may see her, I hope so. I’ll
have to find out.
BM:
And who is Rula?
JL:
Well, she’s a neighbor on the east side. And they have a house. And Tom used to help
Dad all the time with the planting of the garden vegetables and so on, and mowing and
one thing or another. Well, he died and so it was Rula’s. And so she sold us this section
that was theirs, adjacent to our north boundary. It’s a south boundary and it’s a lot. And
there’s nothing there except, oh beautiful roses.
BM:
Hmm.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
18
�JL:
I don’t know, I think one day maybe one of the kids will build something there. I’ve got a
few of them hanging around that are entitled to do what they want to do.
BM:
Okay, so who’s the other person you were talking about? Dolly was another neighbor?
JL:
Yeah and she was on the other side of Joel.
BM:
Okay.
JL:
And they just loved him. Oh they just did. And they just used to open our house and clean
it and so on. Of course those days have gone. Dolly died a couple of years ago I guess. I
believe she was a year older than I am; maybe two. And Rula is a year younger. I think
she had about 12 – Grandma Hodges. And oh, did she like Joel! He could just wiggle her
out of anything.
[Laughing]
JL:
And then he would do a lot, you know, and they had legal problems. Dad would help
them out. And he was very kind. And they all knew it and all loved him for it and it was
beneficial to us. Because see we own – well, God I don’t know how many front feet. I
don’t tell them that because they don’t tax us. It’s undeveloped.
BC:
Yeah.
BM:
Sure.
JL:
But Dad’s never paid taxes. It’s called wetland. And actually it is. It goes down toward
the USU building. There are a couple of houses and then the building is there.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
And it goes down there.
BC:
When you’d go up there in the summer as a young child, did your dad stay up with you
for the whole summer or did he come back to Salt Lake?
JL:
Oh, he’d come back, you know.
BC:
Uh-huh.
JL:
I think he just felt that he had to get back home. And he’d – sometimes he would stay up
an extra day or two, but he didn’t stay up like Mother did. But Mother would pack us up
and go in. Of course we had Mr. Coddle then and the store and that was fine. But that’s
no longer. It’s all so changed.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
19
�BC:
And would you spend any time up in the mountains hiking, riding horses or anything like
that?
JL:
Huh-uh. No, nope. I just did it on the lake. And I rode horses on the lake.
BM:
Huh. Now who had the horses?
JL:
Oh, somebody local. Yeah. I’d say one of the Hodges I suppose. Yeah, even had my little
kids which weren’t so little anymore – although maybe he died. They tore – I’m so mad
at them, you know? Up there across the street from my place there was that old house and
then that little log cabin that was the original old house. And when they bought that land
they ripped it all down! And that was a terrible thing to have done! I mean that was kind
of a historical little old log cabin!
BM:
Did you know the people that lived there?
JL:
Yeah, I did. He was interested in nothing but the money. Ron Hansen was his name. But I
don’t know. Things will change, there’s no question about it. Gosh! I look up there to see
Dad and was sitting down on the porch that we added on outside, off the dining room –
the screened in porch. And it was right after he went up there after he had surgery.
BM:
Hmm. So it was a place he went to recuperate and rest?
JL:
Uh-huh. He loved it! He just loved it. And of course anything he did was for
improvement. Now if that lake will get back up, I will be ever so grateful. And it may.
Because the people who bought it from Scottish Power they can’t pump it anymore. They
used to pump it and pump it upstream (or downstream, whatever you want) on up into
Idaho, to give the farmers more, oh what do I want?
BC:
For irrigation water.
JL:
Yeah, for other chokecherry bushes.
BM:
Oh.
JL:
And they don’t do that anymore. They haven’t run the way -- . Yeah, they used to –
they’d sell the chokecherries all the time. In Garden City you’d go to the stand and buy
chokecherries.
BM:
Huh.
JL:
Take them home and put them in a pot and boil them up – ooh! Good!
BM:
And ate them as what? As a sauce, or [unclear]
JL:
No. Then you strain it and take it and thicken it as a chokecherry jelly or –
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
20
�BM:
Sounds like one of your favorites!
JL:
Oh yeah! Gee it was good!
BM:
Huh. And so you put it on toast, or?
JL:
Yes! Anything you’d put jam on! It was just delicious. And those days are gone! They
just are. I looked out – going up toward Logan out of Garden City – here all this is
subdivided down to that place, that new –
BM:
That new development down there.
JL:
Yeah, whatever that is. And I may not live to see it, but then I may live to see some, but I
guess it’s just going like crazy.
BC:
It is.
JL:
Is it?
BC:
Yeah, I think it’s –
JL:
People are buying it and building and so on.
BM:
And it’s a beautiful place.
JL:
Oh! Of course it is. It’s just lovely. And down to the boat marina.
BM:
Do you remember the refuge? The wildlife refuge on the north end of the lake? Was that
there, or was that yet to be established? When you go past the boat marina and the state
park, and you continue north –
JL:
Yes.
BM:
Towards Montpelier, around the north end is now a National Wildlife Refuge.
JL:
It is?!
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
Well, I don’t know. I’ve driven around the lake and I know people that live there.
BM:
I’m trying to think of the year when that was established. Because I think you would have
been over there.
JL:
Oh, I no doubt would have!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
21
�BM:
It’s waterfowl and swans.
JL:
It’s beautiful! It’s more at the north end than the south end. Yeah. Yeah, I know where
you mean.
BM:
Because part of the refuge – I’m wondering if you ever swam at this beach on the north
end of the lake called – North Beach State Park? Is that it?
JL:
What is it called?
BM:
The very north end of the beach – by the pump houses.
JL:
Yeah, by the pump house.
BM:
That’s a very popular swimming place.
JL:
Well it is for the people that are up in Montpelier and Paris and St. Charles and so on, but
there are no – there are some hot springs over there too.
BM:
That’s right.
JL:
Yeah and they’ve been there forever because I was a little kid and Mother used to take us
to swim in it!
BM:
At the hot springs?
JL:
Yeah!
BM:
Oh, really?
JL:
So it’s really been there forever.
BC:
Oh.
BM:
That’s a very famous hot springs place. There was a hotel there.
JL:
Yeah. I don’t think – yes, I guess there, but that was really in the 1800s wasn’t it?
BM:
Yes, the late 1800s and 1900s.
JL:
Yeah, I know. But Mom used to take us up there. She didn’t like us to go swimming too
much because she didn’t think it was very clean.
BM:
Um-hmm.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
22
�JL:
Yeah, I don’t suppose it was. And anyway I don’t know whether there is still swimming
in there or not.
BM:
There are still hot springs back there in that area but the building is gone.
JL:
But the building is gone, so nobody really swims?
BM:
I think only locals who really know it’s there.
JL:
Oh.
BM:
But that is more off the north east corner of the lake.
JL:
That’s right.
BM:
Back towards the Bear River and the mountains then, close to Wyoming?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
My goodness. You really got around! Holy cow.
JL:
And the Nebeker Ranch, which was big and now the kids are running it again. I don’t
[know] whose it is? Is it Paul? See Dad was partners with all those gentleman. Paul and –
BM:
Um-hmm. Partners in the law firm, you’re saying?
JL:
Uh-huh.
BM:
Right.
JL:
They’re all gone, but their issue is there. And I don’t know who is over in their house. I
know that the gals and boys – or boy and gal – that run the wonderful little stand that do
those little donuts – ummm. [Licking her lips]
[Laughing]
BM:
Wait, what donuts are these?
JL:
Uh, they just fry them right there. They are just little things like that. And oh boy! Are
they good! I want to go out and get them. And then they also – they had some, they
showed it to me anyway, chokecherry. But that is gone – that day and era. And you
know, that’s kind of too bad.
BC:
Yeah, it is.
JL:
I feel sorry about that. I used to pick them.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
23
�[Tape 2 of 2: A]
BM:
Tape 2, side 2[1].
JL:
Yes.
BM:
Here with Janet Quinney Lawson and we’re continuing with our Bear Lake stories.
So he still sails up there? Peter?
JL:
Yes! And his kids; you know Peter’s kids are getting big! He married and he got these
two – after he was divorced from [?] and he remarried. And he has two little kids – three
and five. And that’s pretty little. They come up. They come up for a week or ten days and
they just love it and we love having them.
BM:
Oh, I bet!
JL:
And it’s the way it should be used.
BM:
Now are they swimmers as well as sailors?
JL:
Oh yes! Sure are. Is the Bear Lake monster for real?
BM:
Ah! You remember the Bear Lake monster?
JL:
Oh sure! [Laughing]
BM:
Tell us about that.
JL:
I don’t –
BM:
I actually have that in my notes as one of the myths or legends about –
JL:
Yeah, it is.
BM:
So what did you hear about it?
JL:
It’s exactly it – that it would come out and you better mind your p’s and q’s or it would
get you! And it was usually at dusk or after.
BM:
Uh-huh. What did it look like?
JL:
I don’t know! It sort of was large and it sort of had a long neck that would recoil in I
guess and just its head would be there; or it would be out standing up. What’s he got
here?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
24
�[Reading] Is the Bear Lake monster for real?
Did I give you one of these?
BM:
No, that’s fine, you can keep that.
JL:
Don’t you want one?
BM:
Nope, that’s fine. You can keep that.
JL:
I’ve got more.
BM:
That’s okay. On the monster, have you told your new grandchildren about this? Peter’s
children?
JL:
Yeah, Peter’s. Uh-huh, two little fellows.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
Um-hmm.
BM:
So they know about the Bear Lake monster?
JL:
Oh they do! And they’re sure they saw it. And as a matter of fact sometimes, you know,
the 4th of July or 24th some boats get together and make a Bear Lake monster out of it. Oh
yeah, it’s fun.
BM:
Well you know I also wondered if you fished there because there are fish in the lake.
JL:
Yeah, but they’re trash fish usually, like the sucker. They’re no good eating, they’re
nasty. Yeah you can go and if you’re very patient and want to do it. The trout you just
can’t catch, but gradually I think it will restore itself.
BM:
Um-hmm.
BC:
What about your father? Did he fish at all?
JL:
Oh yes! He was a great fisherman. Not really so much there, but yeah. But he fished
there, sure. But it just didn’t yield anything but carp and sucker. They were so stupid you
could catch them in a net.
BM:
Wow. When you talk about Bear Lake – that’s a summer place and you’re a skier so
you’re coming down here to the Salt Lake City front – where was Beaver Mountain with
the development of that ski resort when you were a young child?
JL:
It wasn’t.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
25
�BM:
It wasn’t there.
JL:
No. That area was called Beaver Mountain. But I remember when it opened.
BM:
You do?
JL:
And I remember the people – I can’t tell you now, I just can’t – who opened it.
BM:
Were those the Seeholzers?
JL:
Yes, maybe.
BM:
Okay.
JL:
Maybe.
BM:
And so, how old were you when that [Beaver] opened?
JL:
I was probably 14 or 15 I think, because I raced up there.
BM:
Oh you did!
JL:
Yeah. And it wasn’t anything like it is now. I mean you have to go back up in, well that
wasn’t like that. It was, seems to me, you just go off the road and go on up.
BM:
Um-hmm. Did it have a tow lift?
JL:
Well, actually yeah it did, it had a tow. But it wasn’t developed really, [back] then it had
a single chair lift. I think it still does perhaps.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
I don’t know; I haven’t been up to it. I’m very naughty about that.
BM:
It’s gotten pretty spiffy.
JL:
I guess it really, really has and I guess it’s just wonderful skiing!
BM:
Um-hmm. And the Seeholzer family still has the operation.
JL:
The rights? They do? My word!
BM:
And it’s grown. So you raced there as a child?
JL:
Uh-huh.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
26
�BM:
Downhill ski racing.
JL:
Uh-huh. And giant slalom, we did that there too. And we did slalom; yeah, we did all of
them.
BM:
Were they also jumping up there?
JL:
Not really.
BM:
No?
JL:
No, the jumping was mostly down here, up at Ecker Hill. [Ecker Hill is in Wasatch
County] I’ve got some pictures that Peter [Lawson] has restored (and maybe some of
them are up at the University, I don’t know) of the jumping days with Alf and Sverre and
Corey [Engen]. Now they’re all gone. I think, to my knowledge though, Alf’s wife
Evelyn is still alive. I’m not sure, but I believe she is.
BM:
This is Evelyn Engen?
JL:
Uh-huh.
BM:
I’m not sure. I don’t know the name. I know the name Alf.
JL:
Uh-huh, he was the older brother of the three. There was Alf and then there’s Sverre and
Corey. And they all moved over here gradually. And then their parents moved over here.
[Mrs. Engen moved to Utah, but her husband was deceased.] And she was Alf’s wife
(she’s a pain in the butt! That’s not nice, but anyway she is.) She lives on an old farm. I
think it’s an old farm. Maybe it’s not, maybe it’s out on the – I don’t know. It’s out there
in one of those condominium developments.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
And I’ve seen her on occasions at some gatherings skiing, but I haven’t seen her since the
last ski archives up there.
BM:
At the university?
JL:
No. Up at the – what do they call it? That what I’m trying to think.
BC:
The University of Utah Ski Archives?
JL:
Yeah, that’s what it is. And that’s called something – I can’t think what it’s called. [The
Alf Engen Ski Museum in Park City.]
BM:
Is it Ski Meister? Or is that a magazine?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
27
�JL:
Maybe it is.
BM:
Hmm. But they celebrate each year, and that’s what you’ve been back to? Hmm.
JL:
I think Alf’s book or Corey’s book – was it Corey or Alf or Sverre? Maybe Sverre’s
book. Over there, can you see it?
BC:
Yeah. There’s one called First Tracks?
JL:
Yeah, that’s the endurance.
BC:
Yeah. Let’s see –
JL:
He’s gone.
BC:
The Wasatch Mountains –
JL:
They’ve all died but me. And as my Dad said, “You’re too ornery.”
[Laughing]
BM:
So you’ve skied with all of them?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
That was part of your –
JL:
bringing up.
BM:
Gee.
JL:
Oh yeah. I skied, as I say, when you put the inner tube around your boot and binding and
that was at Ecker Hill, that’s where we went. So of course it was open. Unless you skied,
and we did later on and I did too. You know, you would drive up Silver King Mine and
hike up and over and drop down into Brighton and stay at [?]; Mrs. Howardy would run
that. The only way you could get in was to ski in.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
God it was fun!
BM:
And the boys skied with the girls and you kept up with everybody? The boys kept up
with you?
JL:
Oh, sure! Some girls – oh, Jenny Gurnsey, we were not best friends. Dear Aunt Em. I
wonder who lives in that house now?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
28
�BM:
In Logan?
JL:
Aunt Em’s.
BM:
Um-hmm. The Eccles House in --
JL:
Not Bammie’s, but Aunt Em’s on the corner. Don’t know.
BM:
I don’t know.
JL:
She had an open house, somebody at Bammie’s house, and had it open and I couldn’t get
there for some reason and I wanted to. So I’ll have to call one day and see if I can go and
see her. I did a lot of growing up in that house.
BM:
In Logan?
JL:
You bet.
BC:
In the summers or all year round?
JL:
Mostly the summers. Well, we used to have winter there, Christmas.
BC:
Oh.
JL:
And Bammie would put one of the Christmas trees in the bay window on the second
floor.
BM:
I bet that was beautiful.
JL:
Oh, it was wonderful!
BM:
And so you went up from Salt Lake to Logan for Christmas?
JL:
Yeah, and stayed. Bammie had a whole house of people. Mother was there and of course
Aunt Marie was there but she lived in her own house I guess. I used to get so mad at her,
but it was George’s fault, he would just spoil her rotten, you know. All she did was feed
the kid, whichever one she had at the moment, and he would bring the baby to her.
Honestly! What a woman.
BM:
So these Christmases, this was an annual thing? You went up every Christmas?
JL:
Yeah, yeah. Until Bammie decided she wouldn’t stay there anymore. She went down to
California. And then we quit going up there and did Christmas at home. But Bammie
stayed there and then eventually of course we moved Bam down, moved her into the
Mayflower apartments [in Salt Lake City] where she died.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
29
�BM:
Can I ask you what Logan was like at that time?
JL:
Well, it had the streetcar, you know? It went clankety, clankety, clank. And it had
Bammie’s electric car. “Clear, here comes Mrs. Eccles, clear the way!” And Bammie – it
had enough juice in it to take her from her house to Aunt Marie’s. Now that was a pretty
good haul up. Back wasn’t bad, but up was –
BC:
Now is Aunt Marie [Marie Eccles Caine] the same – below the university they call the
Caine House?
JL:
The old – yeah, yup.
BM:
So right on the corner of 500 North –
JL:
And – what is that?
BM:
600?
JL:
It’s called “Something Way” or –
BC:
Yeah.
BM:
It goes right up past Old Main, they could probably see the Tower from their house.
JL:
Oh yeah, they lived directly down, actually.
BM:
So you went in an electric car from you aunt’s over there –
JL:
It was fun!
BM:
Oh my goodness, that’s interesting.
JL:
It was very sad and I didn’t know it, but Uncle Spence sold Bammie’s [car] (it was the
second one she had too, it was in perfect condition). He sold it to the scrap yard.
BM:
Sold the car?
JL:
Yes!
BM:
Why did he do that?
JL:
Huh?
BM:
Why did he do that?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
30
�JL:
Because the War was on and they needed it I guess. And Bammie wasn’t there to drive it.
I don’t think she was. Was she there? I don’t remember when she moved to Salt Lake.
BM:
So this would have been the 1940s then when he sold the car?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Hmm.
JL:
There’s a statue.
BM:
There you go, that’s the sculpture.
JL:
Then there’s that.
BM:
Oh!
JL:
That’s a miniature of the one that’s at Westminster.
BM:
Okay.
JL:
But it’s life-size; you can sit in a couch beside it. I was trying to think: who is that? I used
to go down to California and stay and visit Em and Noni.
BM:
Now who is Noni?
JL:
She’s the younger sister and she’s always lived in California, in Berkeley. Just over
almost to Piedmont.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
And Em – after Uncle Lee died – she moved down there and she lived with Noni until
Noni finally kicked her out. Here’s my mother. That’s Mother, and that’s Marriner and
that’s Ellen.
BM:
Ellen?
JL:
Bammie’s next-to-the-youngest.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JL:
And Merrill.
BM:
And you remember them very well?
JL:
Oh yeah! Sure, I stayed with them.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
31
�BM:
Did they ever come over here?
JL:
Oh yeah.
BM:
And to Bear Lake?
JL:
Um-hmm.
BM:
So you had company there quite often?
JL:
Um-hmm.
BC:
And that’s Marriner.
JL:
Yes.
BC:
Do you remember him at all when he was Secretary of the Treasury?
JL:
Sure. I was back in Washington with him. I used to stay with him because I was in
barracks and I didn’t want to be in the barracks very much. So Uncle Marriner would say,
“Well come on; you come stay here if you want to. And just check in and out so I kind of
know what and how.” So I stayed at the [?] [whispering]. It’s kind of posh! It was very
posh because the other ones were over in Arlington. The barracks were just over the
Potomac River.
BC:
So were you in the Navy, or?
JL:
Yeah. I was in the Navy and I loved it! And I loved being in the Navy. And the only
reason that I got out was because I married Fred and I got pregnant purposely. Because I
couldn’t get out, I just couldn’t do it. Then I got pregnant and then I could. No reason I
couldn’t have stayed in.
BM:
Hmm. When were you – what time period was this when you were back east?
JL:
In the Navy before? Who’s that? Who’s that?
BM:
Is that a bird?
JL:
No, well I guess. I’m looking just over the fence and I think probably it’s the gardeners.
They moved that house.
BC:
Oh did they?
JL:
Uh-huh.
BM:
Beautiful tree.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
32
�BC:
So did you join the Navy then?
JL:
Yeah.
BC:
And that was for World War II, or?
JL:
When I got to be 21 I joined the Navy. I couldn’t before that, because my dad wouldn’t
give his permission and I had to have my parents [permission]. So finally I got to be 21
and bang! I joined it.
BM:
So how did you tell them that you joined? Your parents?
JL:
Very terrified.
[Laughing]
BM:
Did you do it face-to-face or did you do it by phone?
JL:
No, I did it face-to-face.
BM:
Ooh.
JL:
Boy Dad! Mother I didn’t care about; but Dad was going to be a case. And he was! He
practically went to Marriner to tell him to get me out of this thing. And Marriner said, “I
can’t do that!” Because he was still Head of the Federal Reserve back in Washington.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JL:
So there I was off to [?] college and boot camp. And then when I got out of boot camp I
went to Washington D.C. with a Bureau of Ships and that was great because it was a very
closed, small, what they call a “Blue Seal” office. Nothing ever went out of that office.
Everything was burned, had to be. We camouflaged all the battle ships and they would
send [?] to them. And we would take them and put them on a paper and scale them down
to – and put them on a paper and then put ships out there to see how the ships . If they
looked like ships something, blah, blah, or whether we would camouflage them so they
didn’t look like the ones that they were. It was fun, I like it. As a matter of fact I liked the
Navy. I really did. I had a great time. My father and mother had conniptions. But I was
21! And I just did it. I must have been a terror for them to raise and I think probably I
was. Dave wasn’t here, my brother. He was in Australia. No, was he in Australia? Yeah, I
guess he was; in the Army.
BM:
So he couldn’t even be here to back you up?
JL:
No, no. After I got out of the Navy I met – through the S.O.S. or S.S.?
BC:
S.S. I think.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
33
�JL:
Yeah. And I got some kind of – not because of who I was but because of who I had been
in the skiing department and in the skiing mainly and so on, they wanted this run. And
now he or she is a wave and so on. We had fun. I had special [?] that brought me into the
studio and oh! Yeah, had a good time. I like it but I couldn’t stay in when I got pregnant.
Which I probably wouldn’t have gotten pregnant except that’s the only way and Fred had
been transferred to Ohio from D.C. and so the only way I could get there was to get
pregnant and get out of the Navy honorably. I did! Everything just went swell!
BM:
And you came back here?
JL:
No, I joined Fred in Dayton, Ohio where Rick was born. And that was something else
again. I thought Dad would have a fit! And I said, now never mind, I did this deliberately
and I’ll probably have another one deliberately. So anyway, I had the baby and stayed in
the Navy – or stayed in until Fred was released – and then we checked out and came here.
He’d never been here before. He’d never been west of the Mississippi I don’t think; poor
old guy.
BC:
How did you meet Fred?
JL:
In the Army-Navy picnic. Creek Park is where I met him. Although that was tough
because he was an officer and I wasn’t. And that made things a little tough sometimes.
But we managed, much to my father’s chagrin. I think he probably – what would he have
me – well I would have stayed in school I guess. I didn’t ever graduate from the
university. Because I was busy in the Navy and I did love it though. I really did. And it
was very good for me to do. And I was in a wonderful office in Washington, on
Constitution Avenue, in the Blue Seal Room. And that meant that upon opening and
closing that it was always locked. You couldn’t get in there unless you were admitted by
somebody who was your --. We were only about eight or 10 people in this particular
department. And we would camouflage the ships and put them on a board and look at
them out here and see if we had camouflaged out a stack; to change what kind of class it
was in. We burned everything, had to be burned. Nothing went out of that office.
BM:
Do you remember where you were when the War ended?
JL:
Sure. I was in Dayton, Ohio.
BM:
Had you had your baby then.
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Rick was already born?
JL:
Yeah, Rick got himself up and born. An OB/GYN, who apparently was a very
outstanding and very something else – OB/GYN doctor – Kirschbaum, I think that was
his name. And boy, he took such good care of me. He thought this was the biggest joke
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
34
�on the Navy he’d ever heard. And so Dr. Kirschbaum, who was an outstanding,
apparently OB/GYN out of Chicago – he’s the one that delivered me.
BM:
Hmm.
JL:
Hardly got there in time. I didn’t have much trouble. Oh, I didn’t. Mother was very busy
trying on hats until Dad I thought was absolutely going to croak her.
BM:
She was trying on hats while you were –
JL:
In labor.
BM:
Oh!
JL:
Getting ready to go to the hospital. Because you know, where we lived Patterson Village
was a long way from – well, I guess it was at least a half an hour or 45 minutes away
from Wright Field where you had to go to have this baby. It was funny.
Did you see that? Emma Eccles Jones: Educator, Teacher, Friend. (6 March 1898—29
March 1991.) [From Utah State Magazine, Vol. 14 No. 2; Summer 2008]
BC:
They published this for the dedication the other day.
JL:
Yeah.
BC:
Yeah. Somebody told me about it, but I hadn’t seen one yet.
JL:
Well, that’s it. I won’t give it to you, but you can probably go and get one.
BC:
I will. We’ll put it in our [Special Collections]. I work in the library, so we’ll put it in our
[library at USU.]
JL:
Absolutely. I think Rick wrote a lot of it.
BM:
Well, we’re just about at the end of our tape. So is there anything else that you would like
to add?
JL:
No. What do you want to add?
BM:
Well.
JL:
Or ask? If I can fulfill –
BM:
Well you know one question that we were really interested in, that you talked a little bit
about in terms of so many changes going on at Bear Lake. And Bear Lake and Logan
Canyon – you mentioned the road and the bridges. Are there any other significant
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
35
�changes or policies that you can think of that impacted the lake or the canyon while you
were going over there?
JL:
Well.
BM:
Or even events. Like the Depression, or civil rights, or anything like that?
JL:
I went – where was it? You know, it’s about that road that goes up, up, up and comes to
where you turn off to go – what is that road called? The part of it?
BM:
Is it the winding part of the road?
JL:
No. It’s the one that goes up from the river, over the bridge – they had to redo the bridge
like completely.
[Tape 2 of 2: B]
Yeah. Gee that was a fun one. You know when you go at the top there on that Denny’s
dugway and then turn to get out, you used to go out and around on that point. You can
probably still see the road. And mother was driving this 7 passenger Buick you know it’s
just a big hunk of machinery. That was the climb. And you know, you didn’t just sort of
flip up there like you do now. It was fun though.
Mother was quite adventuresome. I don’t know, I guess she went up to the store and tell
Joan she was there. You didn’t go over Evanston because from Evanston over was dirt
road. All through Woodruff, Randolph up the canyon, it was all dirt.
BM:
And you said you came then in most recent years, you came up through Evanston. Where
you going through Woodruff and Randolph at Deseret Ranch?
JL:
Yes.
BM:
Was that a place that you were in?
JL:
Yeah we didn’t go into it. No, we stayed on the road that went past the horse racing and
we went up there and then we just zoomed and kept going until we got to Big Junction.
From there you can go to Jackson Hole or Bear Lake.
BM:
Is that Sage Creek Junction?
JL:
Yeah, it’s Sage Creek Junction. And yeah, it’s longer but well I just haven’t driven in
Logan forever. I was asking somebody the other day how it was. Could I get through the
canyon or couldn’t I? Cause I was thinking about going up that way.
BC:
I think it’s pretty good right now. I don’t think there’s much going on now. So you better
do it this year because they might start all over again. [Meaning road construction.]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
36
�JL:
Yeah it I otta go. Why didn’t they leave it alone?!
BM:
Cause there’s lots of skiers and lots of folks going up and down. And they are in a hurry.
JL:
Well, do you think that they are to get up skiing to the meadows there, is it a lot faster
now with the road?
BM:
It is. It’s a lot faster. You know 10 years I’ve been here, but it is a lot faster from what
people tell me. It’s still a beautiful ride.
JL:
I know. It is. That’s the prettiest. The other one is just interesting kind of. Getting up,
over and dropping down.
BM:
But it gets wicked in the wintertime with the weather.
JL:
Well, yes it is. I guess it’s a hard road to maintain. They only open it up to the ski area. I
don’t think they open it up and over the top and down do they?
BM:
They do keep it open now.
JL:
Do they?!
BM:
So you remember a time when the road used to just be opened to the top?
JL:
Yeah.
BM:
Hmmm. And did they gate it?
JL:
No… they didn’t gate it. I don’t know. You just knew it wasn’t plowed. That’s how you
knew. You came to a grinding halt.
BM:
And the last place you could get to was what? Beaver Mountain?
JL:
Mm Hmmm. Yeah.
BM:
That’s a truck route now, Janet, with a lot of trucks that go through there pretty much
year round.
JL:
What? Bear Lake?
BM:
Yeah.
JL:
Oh. Over the new road?
BM:
Yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
37
�JL:
Oh I’m sure. There was a great increase even before they did this new deal as it started
down. What was it called? Denny’s dugway. I wonder if it’s… is it significantly better?
BM:
They’ve taken some of the corners, they windy parts out.
BC:
Probably the big thing was they’ve built in a lot of passing lanes, so that you know, if you
had a recreational vehicle that was going slower, they wouldn’t back it up as much. So
now you can get around some of the slower vehicles. It probably saves you 15 minutes.
JL:
Honestly, who don’t go that way, go the way that’s not pretty just go to Montpelier
[Idaho]; that’s where people want to go I guess. Course Montpelier is a train …
BC:
Train town.
JL:
And there’s nothing in St. Charles. And there’s nothing in Paris really. And I don’t know
what they could build there. Or what they would have there.
BM:
I think mostly the change now is just homes that are going in. Summer homes and some
are winter ski homes. But mostly just homes because some the ranches that were there are
much smaller or gone. But more, more homes.
JL:
Between Montpelier and Lake Town?
BM:
Between Paris, St. Charles, and then down I don’t know what the next town would be,
but along that side. Little by little…
JL:
They are encroaching on my property and I don’t like it.
BM:
Well, Janet, thank you so much for chatting with us this afternoon.
JL:
Oh sure! I hope I’ve done something good. Well, if it isn’t right, or you need more
whatever, I will be aboard.
BM:
Alright. Well, thank you very much for having us today. We appreciate it.
JL:
I hoping I could get you something?
BM:
You know I might take a glass of water now. Thank you.
JL:
Um hum.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Janet
Quinney
Lawson
Page
38
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/42</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-01-17
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Janet Quinney Lawson interview, 28 April 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Janet Quinney Lawson talks about her childhood memories at her family's summer home at Bear Lake. She also talks of her childhood memories at family members' homes in Cache Valley, Utah. She talks a lot about skiing and sailing on/at the Wasatch Front, Utah, and in Cache Valley, and Bear Lake.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cole, Bradford R.
Middleton, Barbara
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Interviews
Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Family
Quinney, S. Joe (Seymour Joseph), b. 1893
Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Boats and boating--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Vacation homes--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Anecdotes
Skis and skiing--Utah
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon
Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp
Utah State University. Janet Quinney Lawson Building
Lawson, Janet Quinney, 1922-2008--Friends and associates--Anecdotes
Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)--Description and travel
Bear Lake Monster
Monsters--Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)--Folklore
Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Logan (Utah)
United States. Navy--Women
Automobile driving--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral histories
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Bear Lake County (Idaho)
Cache County (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Garden City (Utah)
Rich County (Utah)
Parley's Canyon (Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Salt Lake City (Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 2
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx4fd2JanetQuinneyLawson
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
28 April 2008
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2008-04-28
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/bff5de495d56f21f504d8ec20dd768a5.jpg
c42540dd7c5ee7a222234a36b996b2f4
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2705
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3405
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
626126 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/27/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jantzen's Liquid Fit Pants road sign in Utah County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Utah County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Utah County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/14/1965
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 7.77 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Utah County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 10. Folder 13. Photo 357.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959010013_357_JantzensLiquidFitPants.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/414fdc779581b0169dc17adf8c73e79f.jpg
0e088246df59d388447369893adf3606
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/211">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/211</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-11-02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon
Description
An account of the resource
Logan Canyon, Utah. Jardine Juniper. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for USU Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Photo taken May 6, 1924 by Dr. Henry C. Cowles. Professor George R. Hill and Botany students who measured tree and counted rings, estimating age at 2800 years. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in) mounted on board.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cowles, Henry C.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jardine Juniper (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1920-1929
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-0052
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Historical Photoboard Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
A0052
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
May 6, 1924
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1924-05-06
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/3ffd68e29965c42b5916894a9eb72d54.jpg
3618978edb0e050cf8fc8f0484af4a06
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/169">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/169</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-11-02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, Utah, 1960s
Description
An account of the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon. 1960s. Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and white photograph (7.5 x 9.5 in) mounted on board
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jardine Juniper (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-1511
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Historical Photoboard Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
A1511
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1960s
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1960
1961
1962
1963
1964
1965
1966
1967
1968
1969
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/f58e1a5e3b8f22b7f0870a3e8c02bda3.jpg
01beaf879f378ebeb892fbbd0bcbe3ad
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/133">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/133</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-11-02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1920 and 1960
Description
An account of the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and White photograph (2 x 3 in)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Daniel, Theodore W.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jardine Juniper (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1920-1929
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Ted W. Daniel Photograph Collection, 1892-1997, P0373 03:08:01
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Ted W. Daniel photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv25793">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv25793</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Ted W. Daniel Photograph Collection, 1892-1997, P0373
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
P037322304bw
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1920-1960
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1954
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/c8b0ff814acaa5a75616807888735af9.jpg
33396f487c5c48a27a6f7d709a3e18d2
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/216">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/216</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-11-02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jardine Juniper, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1950 and 1975
Description
An account of the resource
Jardine Juniper in Logan Canyon. Discovered in 1923 by Maurice Lindford. Tree named (ca. 1925) for Utah State University Alumni and then Secretary of Agriculture William M. Jardine. Black and white photograph (5 x 7 in).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jardine Juniper (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jardine Juniper (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Outlook Magazine Photograph Collection, P0320 28:03:03
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Outlook Magazine photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv67926">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv67926</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Outlook Magazine Photograph Collection, P0320
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
P0320280303
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1950-1975
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1950
1951
1952
1953
1954
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1964
1965
1966
1967
1968
1969
1970
1971
1972
1973
1974
1975
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/05bcb812196d7edfcba0da65bf27d72d.jpg
d0163588fef62f8f46d750bf3dbf51aa
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2506
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3345
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
745304 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/13/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JB's Big Boy Restaurant road sign in Davis County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Davis County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Davis County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/20/1965
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 358.70 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Davis County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 2. Folder 15.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959002015_91-39_JBsRestaurant.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/dece8ecb15362de0d0ecadbb63dcfc8c.jpg
36225a36b3445ea932b7ebfd2cda74b1
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
3200
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
4000
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
Checksum
0xCC368CB9
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
7893.023 kb
Conversion Specs
iQsmart3 CREO
Oxygen Scan v2.4.0
attributes: jpg, 4000x3200, 400dpi
jp2 image created using CONTENTdm Acquistion Station version 4.1 jpeg 2000 extension software
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2006-01
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/GEA/id/11258">http://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/GEA/id/11258</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jennie Jensen
Description
An account of the resource
A photograph taken outdoors of a store with a sign which read 'City Meat Market, C. Jensen Pro...' and which has several people standing in front of it.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, George Edward, 1860-1928
Subject
The topic of the resource
Butchers
Storefronts
Jensen family--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1880-1920
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Ephraim (Utah)
Sanpete County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1880-1889
1890-1899
1900-1909
1910-1919
19th century
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Brigham Young University, Harold B. Lee Library, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, MSS P-1 # 977
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Brigham Young University
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Public Domain
Courtesy L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
George Edward Anderson Photograph Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jp2
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSS_P_1_977.jp2
Highway 89
Stores and Shops
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/1e90486fa92574fbea5d0ba2992909c1.jpg
ad662b9ad50e5492714dfa7827fe90e9
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
4658
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
6806
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
5000
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
RGB
Checksum
e7f48a92a2102e53b8b5b656e63675cc
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
34030686
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Imacon Flextight 848, display file is JPEG.
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a>
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/16510">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/16510</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jerome City Population- Ariz. Ghost City of Jerome- sign.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muench, Josef
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cities and towns--Arizona--Jerome; Signs and signboards--Arizona--Jerome
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white polyester film negative
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1950-1970
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jerome (Ariz.); United States Highway 89A
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959; 1960-1969; 20th century
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Muench, Josef
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NAU_46742.jpg
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/1fa5253b769ce8d6d4f3515aafe50157.jpg
1001d29e83353812fc2e93dcf51d4c16
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
4219
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
6000
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
600
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
Checksum
42469D8830135B010D66E72061125B51
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
83221800
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Northern Arizona University. Cline Library using Epson Expression 10000XL scanner, display file is JPEG.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2011-12-13
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a>
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/96957">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/96957</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jerome, Arizona. Largest Ghost City in America
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bradshaw, Bob
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cities and towns--Arizona; Buildings;
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Color print
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ca. 1950
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jerome (Ariz.);United States Highway 89;
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959; 20th century
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Hilsabeck, Jon
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NAU_148773.jpg
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/6702fc6db3cf4067ac243601fef4c3c1.jpg
cac28a57f81a98365a2e1580da535ba6
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
2848
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
4272
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
240
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
RGB
Checksum
AB7FF09EE0D2817625CD75A1196A8E13
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
53780196
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-06-25
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a>
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/10356">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/103565</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jerome, AZ 5/29/2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wade, Tyler W.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cities and towns--Arizona--Jerome;
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Born digital
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Jerome (Ariz.)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
2010-2019; 21st century
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Dorothy T. and James J. Hanks Cline Library Endowment for Repeat Photography;
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NAU_153596.jpg
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/7b09fac83d5eecabafd83e1b0fbbb92e.jpg
ef13e8eef0b3097a6641f2b27675dfde
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2728
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3567
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
537307 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi). Display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
3/13/2014
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jerry's Cafe road sign in Kane County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Kane County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
US 89 (Kane County)--Photographs
Advertising--Utah--US 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/21/1965
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 23.70 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Kane County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 3. Folder 3.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959005003_1157_JerrysCafe.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/d2caeaaed93721ac7744d62c6f136d0d.pdf
f87f3ffb19e071faa16a025ac16fd207
PDF Text
Text
�THIS SPliCE FOR WRIlING
R-S7463
POST
T H I S SIDE IS FOR THE ADDRESS
~
0/oom 2iro.s.io.
~
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1795">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1795</a>
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
2203
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
3461
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
600
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
RGB
Checksum
55912363
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
7085515 Bytes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jewel Geyser postcard, Yellowstone National Park, ca. 1912
Description
An account of the resource
Jewel Geyser postcard, Yellowstone National Park, 1912. Souvenir folder. Copyright N.P.R.R. Co.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Yellowstone National Park
Tourism
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographic postcards
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Bloom Brothers Company
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Yellowstone National Park
Wyoming
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1910-1919
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University. Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Postcard Collection, P0031, Box 1 WY 018
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Finding aid for this collection can be found at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv12420</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
P0031_Bx1WY_018
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/e043b6437fe21a9b953f92381903b6ef.mp3
b402d958140ac2ac17780e155c737cd4
https://highway89.org/files/original/b26ba0bf286f3df603e1dbd3ada0d5d0.pdf
191f30876a7d6afb212f7828b447a85e
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Jim Kennedy
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Quinney Library, College of Natural Resources, USU
May 4, 2009 & May 5, 2009
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Radio Shack, CTR-122
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Barbara Middleton 25August 2009; Randy Williams, 12 July 2011;
Becky Skeen, Fall 2012
Brief Description of Contents: Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and
feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest
Service and as a professor), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and
worldview.
Reference:
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JK = Jim Kennedy
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in
conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets.
Tape four was never turned into the USU Special Collections for deposit or transcription. At the
end of the transcript is Professor Kennedy’s 2005 CV.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 3: A]
BM:
This is Barbara Middleton, and we are here on the USU campus with Jim Kennedy on
Monday, April 4th. It’s about 2:00 in the afternoon, and we’re in the Quinney Natural
Resources Library, recording for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project.
So, welcome Jim.
JK:
Thank you.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
1
�BM:
Why don’t you go ahead and start off with your –
JK:
Do you just want me to follow the script? Pretty much, until I get down to my – yeah, let’s
just do that.
BM:
Why don’t you start with your full name and then a biographical sketch?
JK:
I’m James Joseph Kennedy, III. I was born in Philadelphia in 1940; it was about four weeks
after Hitler invaded the Benelux Countries. My first memories are of the city. I was a first
child with my grandparents. And the only person that wasn’t involved in the war effort was
my grandmother, who pretty much raised me. My grandfather worked in the steel mills and
was a Labor Union organizer (which is deep in my DNA, in my social values and the way I
look at the world). My father was in charge of building altimeters, eventually for B29s and
RCA. My mother was the executive secretary for a firm that suddenly became hugely
important in developing fire extinguishing foam systems for aircraft carriers.
I remember when the war ended. I remember the black shades on the windows. I remember
the sense of, you know, everyone working hard to do something to defeat evil. The first
Christmas present I can remember asking for at age three – excuse me, age four – was a
wagon, so I could go collect tin and paper and recycle stuff to help defeat evil.
But after the war was over we moved up to central Pennsylvania. My favorite place in
Philadelphia were always the parks, even when they put gun emplacements up on Fernhill
Park, next to Midvale Steel in Philadelphia (you know, in case of supposed bombing or
attack or anything on that important industry that proved a large portion of the metal for the
Philadelphia naval yards). I always spent time in the park, even when they tried to keep
people out of that. I bartered with the guards to let me go in at certain times in that restricted
territory, just to be out where it was green, and trees and birds, and even garter snakes in
that part of Philadelphia. My favorite place to go was to go to the zoo. I always loved the
wild lands.
And so after the war when my father had to change jobs and move up to central
Pennsylvania, we moved on to a farm. We rented the farm and the family (a huge family,
with probably an average of maybe 7th grade education, with about their nine children)
rented the land, 300 acres of the farm that we were living on, renting the house on. They had
a smaller, less prosperous adjacent farm, and that wild land and those fields, and also the
open-heartedness of these (and in no disrespect say “simple”) people.
Probably one of the persons that had one of the greatest impacts on my life is still alive at
probably 95; one of the young men there, never married. He took to us kids and we followed
him, he started paying us a pittance to work for him. I learned never to whine, you know,
never to complain; never to blame anyone. It just didn’t benefit you. I learned a work ethic. I
learned that’s how you got respect from adults, by doing what you’re told without whining
and doing it well. But also being able to have a sense of humor and irony and fun at what
you were doing. And a person that probably didn’t graduate from junior high taught me that
as much as anybody. And also, just how to live off the land – which they did legally and
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
2
�illegally with great skill; had been doing so for generations. I don’t think any of those
people, other than maybe a brother that was strapped into the war had ever been more than
50 miles from where they were born. It was a very rural, rural area.
Someone once described Pennsylvania as Philadelphia to the east, Pittsburgh to the west,
and Appalachia in between; and I was raised in Appalachia.
BM:
What was the town?
JK:
It was called Montgomery, Pennsylvania. Then we moved a few miles to less of a middle
town (though all those towns were middle towns, and would now be called “rust bucket”
areas). Then we moved into town, bought a house. That was the first house my parents
owned, and that would have been 15 years of marriage (I just turned 12), and we moved to
that little town. We had been going over there to the Catholic Church, so I knew some
Catholic kids there. Our graduation class was only 49, of which three of us got PhDs, and
about a third of us went to college (which is really astounding when I think of it).
But when I moved, it was very much a small town. Everybody knew you almost to a fault,
and especially even a smaller subset of our community of 2500 people within a church and a
school. But it was a good place to grow up. I was, again, much closer to the floodplain and
the tributaries of the Susquehanna River – which was just like, you know, Huckleberry Finn,
Tom Sawyer’s playground and growing up an adventure place for me.
I spent a lot of time in the forest and woods. I always liked getting up early in the morning,
even if there weren’t cows to milk, or traps to check. But I was always involved in trapping,
hunting, fishing and getting up early in the morning. I was an ADHD kid, so I was
hyperactive, easily bored, short attention span, hated being cooped up inside of buildings
(whether it was for church, for family reunions or for school). And by getting out early in
the morning and releasing some energy and feeding my spirit and having some control over
my life independently of the adult world, I was ready to face the adult world at 8:45 when
the school bell rang. And I found it was wonderful therapy for me. So I always went to the
woods, and went to the fields and the streams.
BM:
You mentioned trapping. Would you tell us a little bit about that?
JK:
Well it’s as brutal of a relationship as you can have with nature, maybe with the exception
of bull fighting. And at the time I knew that. One of the earliest things I had to wrestle with
as a child was my sensitivity to animals and lots of stuff that wasn’t okay for boys in the
‘40s and ‘50s to have. If you brought up as a topic it was usually shunned and ridiculed or
laughed at, so you rarely did that. The only people you might be able to talk to with were
girls, and that wasn’t cool at that age in that era either. And so I remember that I never, ever
missed going out to check my trap line. I remember one time my mother trying to lock me
in when I had a 103 fever. The chances of finding a muskrat in the traps that I set, the way
we set them alive after five minutes when the trap would bite them and they would dive in
the water for protection, they would drown; maybe one out of 20 of the muskrats we took
out of our traps were alive, which was increased torture. I always considered that really
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
3
�important, and mortal sin to me would’ve been, you know – some people do not check a
trap line for two, three, or four days. That, to me, was just unpardonable. So in a perverse
way it did develop a certain ethic. And you know, my feelings that 4:45 or 5:10 in the
morning when it was raining outside wasn’t the issue, damn it. You had a job to do and if
you want to engage in such a brutal activity, you had to have at least some standards
involved in the process. A lot of the animals we were trapping had bounties on them, such
as fox and weasel.
When I first started trapping, at probably age 10, the state said they were bad and gave you
money to prove it – there was a certain sense of – you know everything was, you know,
most beliefs were accepted with zero tolerance. This was it, period; whether it was your
being educated in your religion, your politics or in school. And if you had feelings against
that, especially as a man, you were supposed to get a hold of them. And the fact that
shooting animals, or trapping them especially, would bother me and continued to do so was
troublesome to me. And I thought somehow that I was wrong. Most the other adult males
and boys didn’t seem to have that problem at all.
But I loved the mornings. I must say that I probably enjoyed trapping more than anything; I
was usually out by myself. And later as I became a teenager and we got automobiles with
my trapping buddy (we’re still very close) – he went right into the steel mills after high
school, and we still talk and respect and love each other very much. So for about three years
I did it with a person who I became very, very close to. Plus it was earning money, which
was really important. And earning money was a badge of manhood, and adulthood, and
responsibility and accomplishment. And we earned money from it; we were very, very good
at it. And we worked hard at it, and fast, and checked our traps (you know, we were out
there twice a day). The number of animals we caught per trap, per year was astounding;
maybe the average would be three and for us it was 30!
BM:
Wow.
JK:
Because we moved them everyday, you know if they didn’t catch anything. And moved fast
through a stream, and then came back over it a month later, for example, just to get a high
probably sets with your traps. And I hunted and fished; all of that stuff as well.
BM:
Just in terms of setting your traps, you’re saying they’re in wet areas?
JK:
Well, obviously fox and weasel weren’t; but for mink, raccoon and primarily muskrat.
Muskrat were the most abundant, the easiest to catch and they were, you know you could
average $1.50 per pelt – which today would probably be $10.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And if you caught, you know, 500 of them – well, we’d catch about 350 a season. So you
know, multiply that times $10 – for some kids to do something. Well we’d get 350 when we
had a car, with about 45-50 traps. And of course you had to skin them; you know, skin them,
scrape them, cure them. And it was a lot of work, and a lot of effort, and a lot of skill. There
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
4
�was a blood and blister intimacy with everything that you did in that rural environment in
the ‘40s and ‘50s; whether it was recreation, whether it was work, whether it was
hunting/fishing, and whether it was you getting paddled by the teachers or something, you
know. It was much more intimate and direct than today.
BM:
The money that you earned, was that to help support your family?
JK:
Well, saving money for college, so indirectly yes. But also, you know anything you wanted
you had to – anything extra other than Christmas presents and birthday presents – you had to
get for yourself. And if you broke a birthday present, you know, that was tough. You had to
replace it. And so it was you know, the money was important. When we lived on the farm
we weren’t that wealthy. I was the first Kennedy in my family to go to college. I bet you I
killed and we ate cottontails and squirrels, probably 200 year, for the family. That’s quite a
lot of protein. In fact a columnist used to call squirrels “meat that grew on trees.” On the
other side of the Mississippi, here’s a rodent that didn’t hibernate, and didn’t burrow under
the snow like mice – it was always up in trees, it was always visible, and it kept a huge
number of families from starving over the winters. They were always abundant.
BM:
How did you prepare it?
JK:
Oh you know, you usually par-boil them, and then roast them, bake them. You can make
squirrel stew; they’re very tough meat, but they’re very good, very succulent. It’s unlike
rabbit, you know. Rabbits are easier to vanish; squirrels are very muscular, but very good
protein and very good food. And woodchucks, you know. All sorts of stuff we’d eat, and
lots of it. And of course we’d always kill a couple of deer. So we had huge pit freezers, old
ice cream freezers that would hold three times the amount that a normal freezer would
today, that we would keep in a special room because they took up so much space.
BM:
And by a pit freezer, you mean a deep freeze?
JK:
Yeah, that’s right, yeah. And so I grew up – my brothers didn’t – but I grew up as the oldest,
you know, doing a lot of that providing for the family. Then we moved more to a town
where they cut grass and worked in grocery stores (all of which I did too) in the summer.
But I worked just about every day, and with a trap on you worked – it was weekends and
everything.
BM:
Sounds like having a dairy cow.
JK:
Yeah. And I milked cows by hand when we lived on the farm, until I was 12. And then I
worked on farms in the summer, but by then the farms that employed us were milking with
automatic equipment, and milking 100 cows a day; big, big operations. And I liked that too.
I like the smell of fresh hay, I like using my muscles, I like being out in the sun, I like being
on the farm. By then, using heavy equipment before you could drive at 16 you could be
driving powerful machinery, and very dangerous equipment on the farm; and I liked that. In
fact, if my father had owned a decent farm, I might have never gone to college or certainly
wouldn’t have left afterwards.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
5
�I liked the rhythm of farm work, and I like the smells and the connections and the meaning,
the depth, and the – I don’t want to call it spirituality, but the meditativeness of it all. It was
very meditative work; I never had more time to think than when I was plowing. You don’t
have that much time to think around a university. Much more time to think when you’re
doing something – all you had to do is every five minutes just lift the plow, spin it around
and drop it. I loved plowing at night, in the spring with the odors and the smells and the pull
of the plow. Before I left the farm in Montgomery at age 12, they wouldn’t let me around
heavy equipment. But the farmers, they were so poor, they didn’t have much equipment. I
used the last two draft horses they had in a couple of generations, they could remember the
names of all the draft horses: Tony and Burt because they were safe. And I would harrow
corn with Tony and Burt and do things like that, that were slow and boring – while they
would be on the expensive equipment, and the high status equipment, the tractor (and the
more dangerous equipment).
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And the smell of horses, and being around horses that weighed then, probably ten times as
much as I did as a skinny ten year old. And that gentleness and that power and that
predictability and that loyalty: both literally and figuratively. Draft horses are, you know,
deep in my memories – symbolically as well as just fond memories. When people talk about
ice skating and horses for fun – I just associate that with work, you know. Once the ice
would freeze on the Susquehanna River, I’d go out and I’d skate five miles before school,
just checking the muskrat traps through the ice. So ice skating and horses, that was work
(not un-fond memories), and of course trucks too. And now trucks are these, you know,
“boy toys.” You know, I can remember pickup trucks in the ’40s that were rough, nasty,
uncomfortable, and there were dozens of parts on those trucks that have developed a taste
for human blood; they would bite your fingers around the tailgates, and they were sharp, and
nasty and mean! Nothing cozy about a bloody truck.
Well and there’s nothing cozy about Holsteins either, and a measure or a mark of becoming
an urban world is how people romanticize Holsteins. You know, after the first 10% of their
life Holsteins aren’t very playful, you know, it’s hard to have much of a relationship with
them. They just line up and you pull the milk out of them, and then shovel away all their
crap and put it in the manure spreader in the spring (which was really back-breaking work),
shovel the food into them. And most of it became manure; about 5% of all the silage and
hay you’ve worked so hard to store up for them and feed them, ended up in milk. Most of it
ended up in back-breaking feces to haul out and put on the field. But you know you learned
the rhythm of working a fork and using your back and spinning your body. And I must say
when we’d come back from Sunday Mass often, as a kid in the winter when the cows were
in underneath the barn in a (mostly) covered barnyard –
BM:
Bank barns?
JK:
Yeah. It was a big – you know Pennsylvania barns – this was a serious barn. There were a
couple of cows, probably 30, they milked by hand. And I’d put some fresh straw down and
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
6
�bring them over on the south side where there would be a window; and you know, they
would plop down and I’d lie against the cows and read – they generate so much heat.
There’s never nothing going on inside a cow’s belly. I mean it is like New York traffic at
noon! I mean there is bubbling, and gurgling, and gas, and belching; they are always
chewing, and farting, and gurgling. And it’s really kind of content to just lay on Sunday,
when you didn’t have to work (until you had to milk them by the time the sun went down).
When it would be sleeting and nasty outside, to lie against a cow and read; and I would do
that.
BM:
Your comments and your stories are so sensuous in a way that is not just milking the cow,
but everything associated with it. You know, it’s no wonder you have such connections with
natural resources, with the kinds of feelings and emotions that you have in just explaining
life on the farm.
JK:
Um-hmm.
BM:
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it described quite that way.
JK:
Well, even milking cows by hand – I mean I still have the forearms of a hand cow-milker or
a piano player. That’s about the two ways you really get gripping forearms that way.
There’s almost nothing physical that I ever would shut down on than milking. You can only
milk a certain point, and then your hands would cramp up. You’d go in for breakfast and
you couldn’t hold a spoon. Your hands would just be knotted. And that would be on the first
cow and a half or two cows; it takes incredible grip and strength to hold and strip those
teats. And if you’ve ever looked closely to the back of a cow – the hind, where the hams
meet the stomach cavity, there’s a piece of skin, and you can pull that down and put your
head up underneath there when it’s really cold. And you can put your head up right next to a
cow, and of course your ear is right next to its stomach –
BM:
Right.
JK:
And you really, it’s like listening to the earth’s core. I mean, seriously. There’s just a lot –
with all the fermentation that occurs in the digestive process, and all the double, triple
chewing, you know, and all the gases (methane gases) are created by that process. Cows
really – a cow is never quiet. Gurgling and it’s kind of interesting. And it was kind of
meditative; you could hear the milk hitting the can: bing, bam, bam. And then the milk
would fill up and it would change tune. And your head would be warm; you’d be against
this animal that (some of them you had to put kickers on to milk by hand).
BM:
What was that?
JK:
They were chain kickers – you would put them around the back two legs, you’d just wrap
them around. It was kind of a clamp that was on their hamstring, their Achilles tendon, if
you will. You put it on a clamp and you just wrap the chain around. And it was loose, but if
they kicked, it thwarted that; it stopped that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
7
�And I worked on farms during my teenage years, even though I could’ve worked in grocery
stores for half the time and as much money. And I worked with some real jerks too, on some
farms. Men had damaged little boys inside them that were just jerks; weren’t happy, weren’t
content, weren’t peaceful. And even though they had the potential – they weren’t inherently
evil or vicious if you gave them the benefit of the doubt – by their behavior they often
looked that way. I still liked working out with my body, rather than working in a grocery
store. And I liked the smells and feels out there, compared to being in the grocery store, or
in a garage, or in the mills (which money drove me into when I started going to college).
And I worked in the mills – you know cabinet mills, with all the smell of lacquer and
sawdust, all the noise and toxic you know, steel mills with all the danger and noise and
banging. And that I never, never liked. But I could make money; I could make serious
money there.
I didn’t start out in Forestry, you know. Being the first Kennedy to go to college, I wanted to
be an artist, but my parents wouldn’t hear of it; especially my mother who was very
emotional, and very insecure, and very status-driven, and upwardly mobile (what the
neighbors think). They want me to be a doctor or lawyer; when I first said I liked to be an
artist, you know, “Glory be to God! Jesus, Mary and Joseph you’re never going to make any
money, you’re going to be living with some Protestant girl in Greenwich Village you’re not
married with!” You know – I wouldn’t do that. “You’re going to be broke! We’re not going
to work our fingers to the bone to send you to be some artist.” And I said, “Mom, I can be
an art teacher until I make it.” “No, no, no!”
So I had a really close friend to the family, unlike some of the men that I worked for that I
told you about – but he was a dentist in Scranton, Pennsylvania (we called him “Uncle” but
he wasn’t, he was just a good friend of the family). He was sweet; he was one of the first
men that was really sweet and seemed to be okay with it and everyone else was – he was
just a nice guy. And his son didn’t want to be a dentist and he said, “Be a dentist Jimmy, and
you know, you’ll come on by the time I can start you in my practice; you’ll give me some
time off and I’ll just give you the practice after you work there for five or six years.” You
know, it was job security and a good income and a house in suburbia, but I was having
nightmares about putting my hand in people’s warm, red mouth. Now I’m an adolescent and
I’m sure Freud would have a field day with that!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
But I would wake up full of sweat, just terrified, thinking, “Oh my god! I’m going to be
reaching in mouths all day!” Inside a dentist’s office always smelled terrible, and you cause
pain to people. And so I went up to Penn State to interview, and they gave me (this would
have been the summer of ’58), they gave me the test of what I would be good at. It was this
pimple-faced (probably Master’s) grad student psychologist, you know, that has to do the
grunt work after the meeting with the parents. But my parents were such ‘40s product, you
know, early 19th century product, and [he] looked official; they gave them the benefit of the
doubt, to a fault.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
8
�So he’s looking through my results and said, “You don’t score very high here, being a
dentist. Why do you want to be a dentist?” And I said, “Well, I really don’t.” And he said
(he was very official at first), and then he sent my parents out and then he asked me that
question. He said, “Why are you doing it?” And I said, “Well, my parents want me to and
I’d be working, blah, blah, blah.” And he said, “But are you going to be happy doing that?”
I said, “No, I don’t think so, but I’ll just spend the weekends hunting and fishing and doing
stuff to compensate for that.” And he said, “Well what job would you really like to do?”
And I said, “Well, I’d like to be a forester.” And he said, “Well, look right here, you score
very high on the success chart for that.” And he said, “We have a very good forestry
program here.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And he said, “Well, I tell you what. Why don’t we
talk to your parents?” And so my parents came in and he brought that up, my mother, “Oh,
glory be to god! He’s going to work out in a fire tower and be living with bears, and we’ll
never see him, he’ll never make any money, he’ll just be a hermit and I’ll never be a
grandmother!”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
But my father said, “Well, why do you want to do that Jim?” And I said, “I think I’ll be
happy.” “Happy? Happy, what’s happy have to do with it, for god’s sakes?” [Laughing] So,
the guy said, “Listen, I have to take a break.” So I remember we went out at the HUB, you
know – I think it was the Hetzel Student Union –
BM:
Hetzel Student Union Building.
JK:
And we leaned on the railing, looking down, across campus towards the town, you know, in
that direction (I remember the direction we were looking at, down towards DU, which was
the fraternity I was in when I went to school there). And dad said, “Why do you want to do
it?” I said, “I think it will make me happy, Dad.” And he said, “Well, happy hmm?” He said,
“Well, I haven’t been very happy in what I’ve done most of my life, so if you want to do it,
I’ll support you. I’ll manage Mom.”
And that was the most intimate – my father was very spoiled, very self-centered; the only
child of an Irish immigrant (she didn’t get married until she was in her 30s, and been a
domestic until that point); spoiled him rotten. But he was a nice guy, but you had to – one of
the reasons that I learned to hunt and fish is that was the only way I could spend time with
him. You had to do what he wanted to do. And long before I could carry a gun, I was his
beagle. I skinned all the animals, cleaned the fish, you know, take care of his fly lines, dry
them. I mean I was his page, you know if you will. And he, you know, for a gentleman that
was quite appropriate. But we did spend time together and we got to like and know each
other. But that’s one of the only times where I really thought he understood me and came to
my rescue. So I switched into Forestry and never regretted it.
Although I was getting into Forestry because I thought I could escape a complex world by
working in the trees and not having to deal with people and feelings, and check on my trap
line on the way to mark timber, or something out west. Seldom would be heard a
discouraging word. I never knew I would have to work with people; I was terrified of
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
9
�speaking. I was pretty insecure too. I was running away from things getting into forestry, as
much as I was drawn to, you know, thinking it would be a good thing to do; it would be a
noble area that I would be involved in public service.
BM:
So tell me what it was like studying forestry at that time, in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s?
JK:
It was very much like getting ready for your confirmation. You know, you were taught
Forestry like the Baltimore catechism as a Catholic. This is truth, get it dummy, and don’t
forget it. Fire is bad; you put it out by 10 o’clock, end of story. No debate; there was no
room for ambiguity, much less a sense of humor with my professors or imagination. And the
image of what they were training you for was a driver’s license, rather than a learner’s
permit. I mean, there was none of this continuous learning imagery and what we talk about
now, today, in any stage of education: imagination, taking risks, confrontation, all that stuff
– it’s more talked about than practiced. And it still isn’t as embraced among colleagues as
much as you would think it would with all the lather about it. And I resisted that, you know.
I wasn’t a very good student. I was a C+ student until my junior year, when I said, “To hell
with it! I’m killing myself; I’m working 60 hours a week, you know. I’m smoking a couple
of packs of cigarettes a day; I’m not having any fun.” By the end of my sophomore year we
went to summer camp in central Pennsylvania, I still had yet to go work for my first forestry
job. I’d got back and work –
[End Tape 1 side A, begin Tape 1 side B]
BM:
Side 2, with Jim Kennedy. Sophomore year.
JK:
Yeah, I said, “The heck with it. I’m going to join a fraternity; I’m going to start having fun.”
I went out for lacrosse. I cut back my studying to 40 hours a week, you know, and my grade
point average – I started dating girls. My grade point average jumped. Probably jumped
from a 2.3, was my grade point average at the end of my sophomore year – which was 60%
of the total credits in those days, the way that they would cram so much in the first two
preparatory years – and my grade point average jumped to 3. And I started feeling better
about myself. I think my colleagues, my fraternity brothers voted me into leadership
positions: as Rush Chairman, Social Chairman, Vice President (that I didn’t think I could
do, didn’t want, and was stunned why they were so stupid to entrust me to do that!).
[Laughing]
BM:
[Laughing] What fraternity is this?
JK:
Delta Upsilon.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
And I did well. And that probably saved me more than anything. And ironically, rather than
my grade point average going down for feeling better about myself, it went up. I lettered as
Lacrosse Manager at Penn State my senior year, for a wonderful coach – Pensick. Pensick
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
10
�was the Lacrosse coach; lovely young guy. Probably he was only about 28; I really loved
and respected him. And I didn’t feel that way about most of my university professors; they
were pretty rigid, humorless. I don’t know. Pennsylvania then, forest products were not the
values of Pennsylvania forests in the ‘50s, and they behaved like it was. They were still
treating them like a tree farm, and I knew better than that. And it was no spirituality about it,
far from it. That was considered touchy-feely crap. And so again, even at that stage I
couldn’t think openly and discuss openly my relationship with forests.
BM:
So how did – with Delta Upsilon –
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
How did that start to change? I mean, were there mentors there? Were there people that you
looked up to, or?
JK:
I had some good brothers (as well as some real jerks). You know, we went through a brutal
pledge process a humiliating pledge process. But you know I knew how to do that stuff. And
as a result, afterwards when we went into the Forest Service and all the male rituals that
would, you know, intimidate and anger some of our male students (and especially the
females), I knew that stuff. I knew it didn’t last forever; I knew it was, you know, kind of
cheap rituals that males tended to do in initial bonding activities. So I went through that.
But no, it gave me a community in a huge, impersonal place like Penn State. And you know
how important that is. And I think it did that, and it gave me a sense of confidence that I
could be as good as these guys in almost anything, and they all came from (seemed) better
backgrounds than me. I came from as lower-class as probably, a lower class than 80% of my
fraternity brothers and pledges. And yet, they thought I was more than okay. And you know,
so for leadership and confidence, that was a real boost to me. As again, I wasn’t a very good
undergraduate student.
There was one professor at Penn State who saved me, by the name of Bob McDermott, who
appreciated a sense of humor. Most of my professors did not like being questioned, where
Bob just loved questions and kept, you know – like my educational method is just begging
students, encouraging students, teasing them, confronting them to open up and get involved
in some kind of a dance, rather than sitting around like a bunch of toads, taking notes. And
he became one of my champions and he got me back into a master’s program at Penn State.
My grades, even my success in the last two years hardly pulled me up. And a lot of the
professors still identified me as a trouble-maker and an annoyance, where Bob respected
me. And he had clout – he was Assistant Department Head by then – and he got me back
into, after three years working for the Forest Service in Oregon, got me back in.
Now the first summer I had was my junior year. It was at Rogue River National Forest, on
the ranger district where I became permanent. And when we came back, driving back (two
of us in a – it would have been a 1953 Oldsmobile) we plotted a course that brought us
through Cache Valley. We were driving six hours on, and I ran into two Utah State
graduates: one was a summer job person; the other one had graduated three or four years,
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
11
�five years ahead of me and was a permanent employee on the district I was in in Oregon.
And so I heard about Utah State University and about Ted Daniels stories and everything.
And so my buddy was asleep, and I had such low expectations of Utah – when we came
over from Tremonton we didn’t take the cutoff, so we went to Brigham City.
When I came up Sardine Canyon, I was trying to wake my buddy up. It was in September
and there was a little bit of snow up in the high country and the aspen had changed. And I
had expected sage brush and salt flats, and I was stunned! You know, we had just come
across the Snake River Valley in southern Idaho (which is not nearly as impressive as this
mountain range). And then I saw the university and I drove around and I couldn’t wake my
buddy up, he was out of it. We, by that time, probably been driving 20 hours from Crater
Lake. And then I went up the canyon, it was a beautiful day. I was just astounded at how
gorgeous it was. And there was water running in the streets, water running down the canyon.
And then when we finally got to Bear Lake, it was in all it’s blue glory, I finally pulled over
at a view point and got Bob up – put a cigarette in his mouth to wake him up!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And I said, “Look at this!” And so I just thought, “If I ever have a chance to come back to
this place, man I am going to take it!” So I think of that, oh, 10-20 times a year. And here I
am retiring from Utah State University. But it really had a profound impact on me.
I remember when I was back about three or four years later, after I got a permanent job on
the Rogue River and then I was back at Penn State. We were sitting around in an Ag-Econ
class, after an Ag-Econ class a bunch of went to get a cup of coffee at the lounge in the
building and we were talking about great places. And I said, “Bear Lake, Utah.” And there
was a student there whose parents were raspberry farmers, who was from Utah State (he was
getting his Master’s degree). And I remember how he perked up, because we hadn’t talked
about much of anything – he was a pretty quiet guy. “I live there!” You know, yeah. So I
fell in love with this part of the country.
But I got a Forestry degree also so I could come out west, you know. My class of people
never came out west unless you were getting paid; never went to Europe unless you were
wearing a military uniform, you know. So I wanted – as much as my imagination could take
me, in terms of seeing a part of the world – it was coming to the west. I mean I dreamed
about the west from all the hunting magazines.
In sixth grade I was fortunate to have a teacher – she never married – in the summer she
would come out west (by herself or with a friend) and tour the parks. And she subscribed to
Arizona Highways, which in 1954 is colorful and is imaginative and as beautiful a magazine
as you could hold in your hands. It was gorgeous! And I would just dream; and if I did my
work quick, and early, and as prudently and fast (which I could do when I concentrated), it
was a little nook that had cushions on the floor. You could get up and go back there and read
what you wanted to read. And she’d always have her magazines there. So that had an
influence on me wanting to come out west. And I decided that by, well before I was 12.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
12
�BM:
Hmm. And that would be probably original art on those Arizona Highways because color –
JK:
Well it was color photography, it was incredible.
BM:
Oh was it? Okay.
JK:
Oh, for the ‘40s you couldn’t see the color photography. I mean National Geographic was
still all black and white.
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
You know Saturday Evening Post didn’t have nearly the – Life magazine didn’t have as
many. It was great color photography.
BM:
Hmm.
JK:
Called Arizona Highways.
BM:
Absolutely amazing.
JK:
It was really great. And so that just haunted me, those pictures haunted me. And of course
all the sunlight and red rock; such a different country. So I wanted to come out west. And I
never considered a job any place else; I was offered a job for Pennsylvania State Forests and
that was nice, but that was backup.
BM:
And you mentioned Rogue River National Forest and you said Crater Lake. Is that the
Crater Lake District then?
JK:
Well it was up next to Crater Lake. The Rogue River goes down stream and then it jumps
over to Ashland and places like, yeah Ashland and it jumps around, like a lot of those
forests do. The supervisors’ office was Medford; our first son was born in that hospital in
Medford. I just loved that forest out there. There were times I felt guilty. I was a bachelor
for the first year out there and it was just wonderful.
I was the youngest Scout Master in Oregon and we had about 12 loggers’ kids (maybe one
or two might have been Forest Service boys). And you know I’d take them out at least three
times a month in the summer. We roamed all through those hills and it was just wonderful to
work, wonderful to be there. A bit lonely because Kathy and I had been pinned before I
went out there. And then she came out for a year. And I took a year’s leave without pay
(educational leave). Happily they kept us on medical insurance because we had our second
child. We didn’t realize we were pregnant with our second child or we might not have left.
But I went back to get a Master’s degree in Outdoor Recreation because I could see that was
important.
BM:
And that was at Penn State?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
13
�JK:
Um-hmm. I could see that very few people knew what they were doing, and even less of
them seemed to care about the value of recreation. I realized, working on the Rogue River,
that I knew lots about silviculture and ecology but very little about people. And that was
beginning to fascinate me. Plus my girlfriend and wife was a psychologist and brought out
all of her Freud books and everything about psychology – which I never would have read as
a forester. But there was not much to read in that little logging town of Prospect, Oregon
(there was about 800 people): one bar, one grocery store, and one gas station, and a high
school. And I just got interested in that.
Then in the ‘50s and ‘60s as far into the social sciences you were allowed to go in natural
resources was economics and micro-economics, at that – which is even less involved in
people than macro or developmental economics. So I didn’t really want to be an economist,
but I was so naïve, I didn’t know that. You know, so I just dutifully followed – and
economics is so demanding with all the mathematics and conceptual thinking that you didn’t
have much time to wonder whether this was it when you working so hard just to understand
it. But by the time I got my PhD I was ready to branch out more. Even though I got my PhD
in Economics, I wouldn’t have gone to Virginia Tech (it was called VPI then) unless I
trusted my major professor; and we had a verbal agreement that he’d let me take Planning
and Sociology and other courses, which he did.
BM:
Um-hmm. And who was that professor?
JK:
That was Larry Davis, who I ended up talking him into coming out to an interview at Utah
State in my last year and a half of my PhD program. When the dean was hounding him to
apply and come out for an interview, he said, “Who in the hell wants to go to Utah?” I said,
“Larry! Logan!” I was just passionate in these descriptions in what a great place it was. And
then he gets up – we’re in a Rough Rider bar in Washington National Airport – and he
walks out into the hall and calls Thad Box at Utah State. And I’m sitting there looking at our
two beer mugs going, “You dolt! Here you are talking your major professor into going out
to interview. He’s going to leave you! What the hell’s going to happen? This is really poor
career planning.”
But we loved and respected each other, even when I was a grad student. And our families
were very, very close. I’m coming back through here in July to go up to his and his wife’s
50th wedding anniversary at Flathead Lake. Ironically, they live in Spokane, not far from
where our son lives. Because our kids were raised together; our kids are as close to their
kids as, you know, as either family’s cousins. We spent a lot of time together. Even when a
lot of his colleagues and my fellow grad students said, “How do you pull this off?” You
know, and it was the old ROTC dichotomous, mechanistic thinking: you don’t shoot and
fraternize with the troops, especially if you’re going to send them out to battle – whether it’s
with a machine gun or standing up in front of your dissertation committee, you know!
[Laughing] You couldn’t mix rationality with feelings. Which is just dumb, and we never
bought into that. We’ve always been close and he was a very tough – he had four PhD
students and only two of us made it through.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
14
�BM:
Whoa.
JK:
Yeah. That was pretty standard in those days; the survival rate was not that great.
BM:
So what year are we talking about when you finally finished your PhD?
JK:
That would’ve been ’69. I was on the faculty there for two years then came out here.
BM:
You came directly to Utah State from there?
JK:
Yeah. And I’ve never gone any place else. Now eight of the 38-39 years I’ve been at Utah
State, I’ve been out of here; and usually on foreign assignments. So it’s given us an
opportunity to go see other parts of the world and come back to your country and your
university different than when you left. And seeing the place you’re returning to differently,
for better or worse.
BM:
What are some of those places you visited?
JK:
Well, the first sabbatical was a year with the New Zealand Forest Service, on a national
New Zealand fellowship. Then I got a Fulbright at Trinity College, Dublin; and that was the
last year that we were together as a family. Both of our sons were students and Kathy was a
research assistant. The university started in 1605 – oh excuse me, 1590. So that’s about 15
years before Jamestown Colony. And it feels that way. It feels like going to school in the
Vatican: ancient university, wonderful place. And a wonderful city – in ’83 Ireland was still
very much a peasant society. They called it “Dublin town” then, and it felt like a town. (As
did Washington D.C. when we first started going there in the ‘60s, before it became so big,
fast, impersonal.) But, no it was a wonderful place to be.
And after that I went to the Wageningen University in the Netherlands in ’85. Then I did a
sabbatical – I was a special assistant to Mike Dombeck with the BLM. Then they asked me
to stay another year, so they just bought out my contract. Then we went back to Wageningen
for my last sabbatical, for a year. In I think it was something like ’03 or ’05 – something like
that.
BM:
How do you spell that university?
JK:
W-A-G-E-N-I-N-G-E-N. It’s Wageningen. The “g” is a [makes guttural sound].
Wageningen.
BM:
And in all these places, as far as a sabbatical, was it primarily economics that you were
working on?
JK:
No, no. I’ve never been a very disciplined economist. I taught it and did it because I had to.
But I’ve always been interested in organizational behavior and the ability and inability of
traditional cultures, like foresters in the Forest Service, to adapt to changing realities of an
urban, post-industrial society. That valued non-market goods, which really made my
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
15
�economics less and less potent. And I never was a good economist. So many economists are
so anal and so judgmental, they’re kind of intellectual Jehovah’s, you know. They really talk
and think like they know what the hell they’re talking about, which makes me suspect of
any group like that.
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And I didn’t find them very good company, you know. They were so anal, and so sure of
themselves, and so narrow and so irrelevant that I just moved in another direction. I used to
call myself an economist of sorts, and often introduce myself as a forest economist that’s
been in recovery for 12 years or something! [Laughing] I didn’t want to be an economist,
but I didn’t know that. And I trusted my elders too damn much. But they gave me their best
advice, they were even more ignorant than I was and didn’t realize it. So, no economics just
got me started and allowed me to get in a university and earn my keep for the first five
years.
BM:
So go back to that, you mentioned coming to Utah State. Tell us what that was like. And the
year again --
JK:
Well I came here because this was a multiple-use oriented school. Timber wasn’t king here
– look out the window. I mean Utah State could never justify itself on board feet; maybe red
meat. And as a result, I think the first outdoor recreation course in the world was taught
here; certainly I think the first in the country. They were very multiple-use oriented.
I also came to Utah State because they weren’t under the thumb and the influence of an
agriculture college, which was so conservative and so reactionary, and so inflexible in their
inability to adapt. Plus, they were always the ones out, you know, throwing the stones at the
people protesting the war and other things that I believed in. And so when we came here, the
College of Natural Resources was the most liberal college on campus, including HASS
(Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences) – with such wonderful people like Aldo Leopold’s
last grad student, Stokes, which was really ironic for a northern Utah cow college. Of course
“liberal” is always relative here. But that was a big attraction. And there were a lot of
refugees here from large universities that came to Utah State as professors for the right
reasons: they were tired of the universities of Wisconsin’s or Penn States, regardless of their
supposed qualities and rankings.
You know, this last weekend we graduated one forestry student – we had to limit for every
two people that applied to summer camp, we could accept one. We could only hold 30
students and 60 would want to go to summer camp – this was just Forestry. And we were an
academy for the agencies; we trained range guys, wildlife biologists and foresters for the
federal agencies. And we wouldn’t have thought that, but we behaved very much like a
WestPoint. It was a much more liberal WestPoint than most. And they were good people,
and it was a good community, good departments, a good college.
BM:
What departments were there at that time?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
16
�JK:
Well, there were three: there was Range, there was Fisheries and Wildlife, and there was
Forestry (that soon became Forestry and Outdoor Recreation).
BM:
And were you responsible for teaching some of those Outdoor Rec courses at that time?
JK:
Ironically, no. They had a huge Recreation contingent here, which really attracted me. I was
an economist and I was a bridge between economics and outdoor recreation for them. I
taught Policy and Economics, primarily, and Principles of Forestry because I always taught
Principles of Forestry as a social science. And nobody wanted to teach that, plus I could get
to the students early in their career, when their minds were open and when they were was
still romantic idealists; and give them confidence and context to stay that way throughout
their rational education.
BM:
And Principles of Forestry is like a freshman level course?
JK:
Freshman or sophomore.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
We had five Principles courses: Principles of Wildlife, Forestry, Range, Outdoor
Recreation, and Watershed.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
And I taught Forestry, which was the biggest. It was a general education course also,
because there was enough social scientists on the general education committee to recognize
what a broad course it was. I used to fill the business auditorium – which was the biggest
auditorium (well maybe there was a bigger one in Old Main). But it was almost 300
students. I’d have a whole flock of TAs.
BM:
And the breakdown was university-wide?
JK:
Yeah, but you know, all the forestry students had to take it and a lot of the other natural
resource majors took it. And about half were natural resource majors, half were across
campus.
BM:
Wow! That is different. You know, when I think of Principles of Forestry from other places
I’ve been at, and in talking with other instructors, it was very much –
JK:
I always taught it as changing relationships between people and forest ecosystems, and how
important culture was in shaping your relationships – as my rural culture in the 1950s was
shaping my relationships with traps and hunting. And I was teaching in the ‘70s and some of
my students said, “Well you don’t look like a hunter! How could you hunt? Blah, blah, blah.
Didn’t it bother you?” “Well yeah, sure!” And also you know, I said, “I was learning life
skills. I didn’t know if I’d ever live through between 18 and 24 – my draftable age. I fully
expected being able to shoot squirrels might save my life and the life of my buddies, plus
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
17
�keeping the world free from evil.” I couldn’t remember years when there wasn’t a war: we
were either finishing one up or talking about the next one. I remember when the Korean
War broke out, I counted on my fingers, you know. I was eleven when it broke out, how
long would it have to last before I could be drafted into that place. And they just didn’t get
that, you know. I mean they thought that they could avoid killing other people in the name
of their country – which has its bright side and its blessings of course. But I thought I was
going to end up shooting people; and do it efficiently, without letting my emotions get in the
way. So if I couldn’t pop a deer, what was I going to do when people were shooting back at
me and my friend was screaming because he had his shoulder blown off? So, you know,
they didn’t get that. They get it less today.
BM:
So this Principles course that you taught – that’s a fascinating approach as far as the
relationship and not just the products –
JK:
Well, I got into forestry because of relationships. Even the very pragmatic, technician types
in forestry – most of them got into forestry out of romantic relationships. And yet they had
that beaten out of us, we couldn’t respect and nourish it, and even elevate it, throughout our
education and our professional development. And I tried to get ahead of that. And every
principles class I’ve taught has always had a strong element of professionalism woven
throughout the whole course; a major tapestry, you know, cross strain and pattern. And I’d
say that professionalism is three components: a trilogy of caring, knowing and doing.
For the first day of all those Principles classes, including the last two I just graded here a
couple of days ago, the first day I’d ask them to define professionalism. I’d ask them, “How
many of you in this class plan to be professionals in four, five or six years?” All the hands
go up. This is the way I seduce them and co-op them. So I’d say, “Well, you want to be a
professional? How many want to be a good professional?” And all the hands go up, you
know. And I say, “Well, what’s a good professional? Most of you have met good ones and
bad ones, so tell me the characteristics of professionalism.” And they’ll throw about 20 of
them at you. 80-85% of them will be characteristics of good people in our culture:
trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly – you know the Boy Scout characteristics of a good
person. But the difference between a good person and a professional is confidence, and
that’s in their mind of things they keep mentioning. And I’ll talk to them about, “Well,
would you rather have a dentist you like or one that can put fillings in your teeth that don’t
hurt and stay there?” Well, alright, you know. “How many of you have had teachers?”
(Because that’s a big role model, positive and negative role models that you’ve experienced
as professionals.) “How many of you have had teachers that were good guys and gals, but
weren’t competent? How many of you have had jerks, but really did teach you something?”
Alright, so we’re back and forth on that. And so I say, “Alright, how do you want me to
treat you people? As post-high school students or as emerging, young professionals? How
many of you want me to treat you as post-high school kids?” [Pause] “How many of you
want me to treat you like emerging, young professionals?” You know, some of the hands go
right up like this. And I say, “Okay. I’ll do that, I want to do that.” Quite honestly I’d do that
even if you told me you didn’t want it. But I said, “You know, this requires more of me and
more of you, if you want me to treat you with that respect and with that kind of information.
And it has higher expectations than you might otherwise get.”
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
18
�So within the first week then, we’re defining professionalism as these three characteristics.
And I said, you know, “Most of you here want to care more. You’re here to really increase
your competency in caring, or knowing, or doing.” You know, and it’s the “knowing” part,
the cognitive part, the rational part. And I said, “The ‘doing’ we don’t actually teach you
much anymore, with field trips and stuff that I had ad nausea as a kid, as a forestry student.
You’re going to get that by summer jobs. And we’re really going to encourage you to do
that; it might be uncomfortable, you might not make as much, blah, blah, blah. But you’ve
got to do that.” And whether it’s teaching summer schools or camp if you want to be a
teacher; if you’re an engineer, getting out and doing various things in engineering or natural
resources. Because again, at least half or more of the students aren’t natural resource
students.
And I said, “Then there’s ‘caring’. We don’t teach you how to care here.” Usually it’s the
opposite. But I said, “That’s important. How many of you know what profession you want
to be, you know? How many of really care?” We talk about caring and I confirm how
important that is. And how, if you’re not careful in all this pursuit for knowing, especially if
they’re taught the traditional male rationale of dominating everything – that you could
squeeze the caring out of you; don’t let that happen, that’s precious. And I’m telling you and
I’m honoring your already moving quite forward. I ask them, “How many of you feel
competent as an emerging, young professional?” Most of the hands go up. I said, “Well
look, here’s the caring part. You told me you were caring and that’s huge! You’re not
recognizing and respecting that. You have to do that, because we will not do that in
academia. So this is your personal responsibility, you cherish that. Not only that, that’s
going to drive what direction you go and more important than that, it’s going to keep you
from burning out, you know. It’s not going to be the ‘knowing’ that’s going to cause you to
burn out and give up; it’s going to be the caring and how you manage your feeling
relationships and your passion, and your forgiveness and your tolerance. And that’s huge for
adaptability as well.”
And I wanted to get to them early on that, because by that time I’d realized how important
that is. And you get into nursing, police work, teaching, engineering usually for caring. And
most of you, if you get into it just for the money – that’s not very romantic in a way – but I
don’t find that the case in most people; even accountants can be romantic about it!
[Laughing] God knows how, but they seem to.
And so I want to recognize that, endorse that and enforce that. And I want them to think
broadly and liberally too. So it was a very conscientious attempt for me to teach the courses
that nobody wanted to teach: the introductory course. I wanted to subvert – I couldn’t
change my college way of thinking, but I could help put students into their class that would
make my colleagues think and teach differently. But it’s a long-term process. But I’ve
always been in long-term processes, certainly as a forester every tree you plant is a huge act
of faith.
BM:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
19
�JK:
So it’s kind of, you know, that’s why I took those big, general education courses. You got
no professional rewards or respect from your colleagues, or university rewards; you did that
in spite of the reward system – which romantics tend to do. And I’ve always accepted my
romanticism as cherished, personal property.
[Stop and start recording.]
[Tape 2 of 3: A]
BM:
Okay, we’re continuing on Tape 2, with side 1, with Jim Kennedy. And he’s just finishing
up his discussion on why the general ed courses that he taught at Utah State were so
important and influential in terms of his vision and his idea of where he wanted to go with
education, and with students, and with colleagues.
So go ahead, finish what you were –
JK:
It was subversive, but first impressions last. I hadn’t been to the graduations for the last
couple of years (because I’m usually out of here, down at the ranch by the time graduation).
BM:
And the ranch is in?
JK:
Tropic, Utah.
BM:
Alright.
JK:
And the dean, you know, put out a memo, “Please come.” Plus this might be the last time
I’m on campus in May, so I went. And the valedictorian said that she graduated from high
school in California (this is our college valedictorian), and she was so sick and so
disillusioned with academia/school was going; she went to Mexico and was going to just be
a bartender in Margaritaville for a couple of years. She ran into a friend of hers that was
coming up to Utah State, and talked to her into coming up. And she took my introductory
course and she said her life changed. And I turned her on to thinking, and feeling, and
excitement. And seeing that finding a profession that feeds your soul, as well as your wallet,
can be – in our society, the way it’s constructed for better or worse – is an opportunity for
joy, and fulfillment and growth; or an opportunity for despair, or in between: just boredom.
You’ve got to choose, what do you want to do with your life? And that’s a big decision.
She’s gone on to graduate school, so that was kind of cool.
BM:
And what area of CNR did she graduate in?
JK:
Shupe escorted her down the isle, so I think it was – you know, I don’t remember. But I
mean she was one of just the general ed students that came in and then switched to our
college.
BM:
That’s amazing.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
20
�JK:
And that happens, and that’s as close to miracles as you can get. There are lots of theories of
education, but that result that I experienced on Saturday, supports my inoculation theory,
you know. Where you sneeze on them, like with Swine Flu, or with Jesus of Nazareth
breathing on them, “Who’s sins you shall be forgiven,” and they don’t think they’re getting
a cold. I remember one time a student walked into my office – this was in the ‘70s – and
said, “You son of a bitch. I came out here to ski and I ski every Tuesday and Thursday, and
I’ve taken your class on Tuesday and Thursday and I thought I’d cut it.” He said, “You’ve
turned me onto school! The damn snow is melting and I haven’t been skiing!”
BM:
[Laughing] That’s hilarious!
JK:
He said, “You have really screwed up my life!” He said, “Damn! I am really turned onto
this stuff and I’m becoming responsible. And my parents and I don’t know really what
happened!
[Laughing]
JK:
That was the plot. I’ve developed a very humble image as myself as an educator. I used to
see myself as a lightning rod, but you’re really a seed crystal. You know, the solution has to
be charged for you to make major changes in people’s lives. Now, for better or worse, they
usually give you too much damn credit because they feel their lives – the valedictorian put it
(Sivvy was her last name – I forget), but she said, “Her world pivoted” on that course. So
pivotal points is a nice image, you know. For physics or for a ballerina, a pivot point and
angles over pose – that’s nice imagery to me. And you know, part of what you teach you are
a role model and a life force and all the intellectual crap, especially is so important in
economics. You become a positive or negative role model. I used the verb “educate” and
“role model” almost like in one breath. Because you ask people – I’ve interviewed a lot of
people – five, ten, 15 years out of the contact with teacher. And they never remember the
theory, they always remember the person. And as a role model: positive and/or negative, or
both. So you know I figured that out pretty early.
I’m much more humble. And usually when students write me about what an influence I’ve
had in their life – I’ll always say, because I think it’s the truth, not just cause -- I can accept
compliments in my old age now (I couldn’t when I was younger). But I said, you know,
“You came into my life with all of that and more. And I just happened to enforce it, nurture
it, confirm it. And you’re giving me more credit than I deserve, which I’ll take, but I know
and I want you to know that I think you’re giving me more credit. And I’d like you to take
more credit for yourself.” And I was glad there to be the catalyst. A catalyst I think is
accurate and good image. I was glad I was there and I was glad I was the catalyst. But you
had to be ready for a catalyst. And when you look at it, a catalyst is usually not much of the
weight in a solution; it’s a small amount. But the other mass there ready to receive it.
So you know being an educator really requires receptive people. And it might be asking too
much of 19 year olds that have so little life experience. They just don’t have anything to
make it relevant, the things I’m talking about. But many of them do, and they’ll never be
able to come back to me and say I didn’t tell them so.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
21
�BM:
There is a tremendous passion when you talk about what you do. And it’s not just because
you like the woods, you know, like you hear a lot of foresters talk. You obviously have
talked about liking to be outside and how that, you know, with your ADHD and all of that,
those kinds of behaviors. But I think that’s something else that is just like a thread through
all of what you talked about. There’s that passion for what you do in caring about people
and how that comes out in your teaching – over and over again I hear from students how
stimulating that is. And that is something that not a lot of us have been exposed to. You
know, some of us have had that lucky series of teachers –
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
But that’s, I think a very important quality that you put into all the teaching that you’ve
done.
JK:
Well, if you teach natural resources not as sacred stuff, but as human-ecosystem
relationships, based on what you know – knowing and caring about parts of ecosystems. If
you study natural resources you’ve got to learn about yourself, because it’s relationships.
And you’re pivotal in that relationship and so are the people. And you’ve got to be
empathetic with other people, because without relationship there are no natural resources,
you know. And occasionally when I really want to berate my colleagues here, I tell them
you know, “It’s like you’re saying, ‘We’re the college of traditional marriages.’ And for
95% of the course we teach the husband side of marriages. But in the end we give them a
course in the wife side of natural resources – the wife side of marriage.’” That’s like saying
you teach natural resources here and you give them a human dimension course at the end?
And in wildlife, often that human dimension course is law enforcement? Better give them
zero, than to give them the relationship of the enforcer, you know.
The Conan the Barbarian for right and truth. I said, “No wonder you turn out such
dysfunctional, damaged professionals.” You’ve got to focus on relationship and you’ve got
to learn about yourself if you see yourself in a relationship. And you’ve got to take
ownership for that. If you fear rattlesnakes, you’ve got to take ownership for that, it’s not
the rattlesnake’s fault, you know. If you want change, you better change because the
rattlesnake isn’t. It’s your perception and response and behavior around them – and that’s
true with just about everything. Living in a bureaucracy, living with a crappy provost or
whatever, you know. You’ve got to take responsibility for your feelings about that, and
manage that. You probably can’t change him or the war, you know. That’s not to say you
don’t do something about it; stoicism is only one response, or denial is another that is even
less justifiable than stoicism.
So I really focus on the relationship part and that you’ve got to take responsibility for that.
And I do that in class too. I said, “I expect you to come prepared. You expect me to come
prepared, and damn it, you should. I’m a professional, I’m proud of it and I’m going to
prove to you I’m a good one. But I expect you to come doing the reading. If you don’t come
having done the reading, I’m not going to sound that organized; I’m not going to sound that
profound. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that; I’m not! I’ve given you
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
22
�the readings, spoon fed them to you. It takes a half hour – most of you spend that much time
getting your hair ready to go out in the world. If you can’t do that, you’re really not an
emerging, young professional that has much of a future ahead of him.” So I beg them, I kid
them, and I’ll confront them. But I can do that fully justifiably and I get away with that.
I grade every one of their exams. They come to see me, not a TA; there is never a true/false
or multiple choice questions in it. That really gets their attention because they know that
weekend before I give them back their exams, I’ve spent 20-30 hours doing their exams;
comments in the margins. That gives credibility normally you don’t get when you don’t
deserve it. You really invest yourself and that counts. They hear so much talk: “I love you; I
respect you, blah, blah, blah.” Show me the beef, you know. Your involvement with them
and your willingness to read – some of them wish you wouldn’t read their questions and
make as many comments as you would and just give them an ‘A’. It doesn’t work that way.
BM:
Well, and you have a vested interest in them. They’re not just [inaudible] sitting in your
classroom: they are living, breathing organisms that are going to go out and change the
world.
JK:
Yeah. And it goes back to the non-intellectuals, the farm guys I knew that taught me that, in
terms of I want to see it raw. I want to see it and wanting to spend time with me or work me,
or do something with me, you know. And get up early in the morning and do it and not
whine about the weather or whatever other things you’re using to limit yourself or protect
yourself. So that’s a form of vulnerability in a way.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
But it’s also a form of accountability that seems to be diminishing, especially in the way we
grade them too.
BM:
What do you mean?
JK:
The greening of the grading system: everybody gets a three-point anymore.
BM:
Hmm. So influence wise – you’ve mentioned a few names along the way – who would you
recognize as your mentors?
JK:
Well, Bob McDermott who saved me as an undergraduate student really did. And he loved
questioning, he loved debate; he had a sense of humor, he was open-minded, he laughed. He
was involved with life in the classroom and in his mind as well as when (I suspect) being
out with friends – which maybe some of my other stick-in-the-mud professors were, but I
never could sense it.
A lot of people that I’ve read, you know. And you know, sometimes it’s a personality defect
for a person that’s talked as much about mentoring and being a mentor, and studied
mentoring as I have – there have been no real saviors other than Bob McDermott in my
undergraduate. And I only had two classes from him: Outdoor Recreation and Range; really
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
23
�the only multiple-use classes I had at Penn State. I was fortunate to be his TA when I back
for my Master’s degree too.
Larry Davis, my major professor and department head here was a wonderful guy; really
bright, intellectual guy. And I think he also saw me as a different personality and thinking
type, and he embraced me for that. Because I think I made him better, and he made me
better. I think we taught each other values and relationships and all the “knowing” part of
the three parts of a professional.
BM:
Um-hmm. Which two are the essence of a mentorship and relationship.
JK:
Yeah, sure it is.
BM:
You’re both giving and sacrificing and pushing each other.
JK:
Yeah, yup. Yeah, and I had some people in some individual classes like Speech class I
stumbled into at Penn State, where the person really forced me to confront my insecurities
and help me – I used to have bladder control problems standing up in front of a group. I
came across some good, positive role models as an educator, but for every positive role
model as an educator I had ten negative ones; but they taught me something. I mean, that
didn’t teach me what to be, but it taught me what I didn’t want to be. And they taught it to
me solidly; and I was sure I didn’t want to be like that. So that really helps you decide what
you want to be.
And there was just a whole bunch of people. I’ve been exposed to a lot of people. My father,
in some ways, was a negative role model; but he taught me stuff even by that – in terms of
relationships with spouses and children – as well as the positive ones. So I’ve always been
blessed by the negative ones. Some of the greatest shocks in my life and disappointments in
my life. Well Thad Box, when he was dean, turned me down for a full professor the first
time I went up. I mean my full support of my committee and my department head.
As a result of that, I turned to the agencies that really needed me in the mid-1980s to put
their diverse, professional and gender recruits, in their post-NEPA [National Environmental
Policy Act]
culture. And we developed short courses where I was – with all the teaching I
did on campus, even when I was teach large classes, I often had more contact hours with 30
and 40 year olds in the Forest Service and BLM, in these one week short courses with
people like Jack Thomas. And these people are ready to learn. Whoa! You talk about a
charge – and that really made firm in my concept and confidence in this catalyst model of
being an educator really was convincing there. Plus, going out on a limb and taking the risks
to deal with feelings that were involved and the emotional, spiritual elements of their
frustrations and successes allowed me to come back and risk doing that with more
confidence back on the class here, when students would laugh or say, “Oh crap, what’s that
all about?” Because these 19 year olds don’t have that much context. Sometimes it’s like me
giving a terrific lecture on retirement planning to 3rd graders over at Edith Bowen
[elementary school on USU campus], you know. No matter how good you do it, I mean they
just don’t care! They’re not ready for that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
24
�But these 25, 32, 40 year old combat biologists who weren’t being very successful, and
getting beat up in the agency and often weren’t taking responsibility – talk about a miracle
worker in a week. I mean, we had people come unglued, I mean that just had to really reevaluate their whole context of who they were and what they were doing. Because they were
behaving as these kind of Robin Hoods out there, and they weren’t very affective; and they
were alienating the community and the resources that they gave a damn about weren’t being
adequately protected (as they could and should be). Plus, they were working themselves out
of stomach linings, and marriages, and everything. I mean they really needed to reconsider
their life as a person and a professional, and as a change agent within the Forest Service.
Most of them, of course, didn’t see themselves as change agents, didn’t want to be change
agents, didn’t study to be change agents; they wanted to do it, didn’t know how to do it.
But you know, NEPA put them there to be change agents, I mean geez! And NEPA put
them in there to change the power relationship within the Forest Service. And most of them
didn’t think they were into power – which they all were, they were just in the closet, even to
themselves. Of course power is your ability to change the world, change things; that’s what
power is. And most biologists and these specialists think that power is something that
capitalists and generals and people that they don’t admire and care about are in to, like the
Forest Supervisor.
But just intellectually, and emotionally, and relationship wise to confront them, that was
hugely important to me because it made me work hard. And these 30 and 45 year old,
frustrated, very powerful, intellectual, caring, romantic, idealistic, hard-working people –
they did not tolerate bullshit for long, you know. They would come right at you. And so you
had to be relevant and you had to be true. I mean you had to be true and honest with them,
even though initially they would rebel against it and didn’t like it. And I was; and the team I
put together was.
You know I just threw away the plaque that the Forest Service gave me for doing that – put
it in the trash can. You know, it’s just a piece of wood and brass. But you know [inaudible],
I’ve got the memories.
BM:
Right.
JK:
But kids aren’t going to experience it. It was signed by – Max Peterson signed it. Anyhow,
I’ve always seen myself as a change agent and a revolutionary, but I’ve done it indirectly,
like planting trees and things. I plant seeds and stand back and watch them grow. But that
was really powerful. You could see impact and people would, you know, tell you how you
changed their life. But the only requirement was we wouldn’t take anybody into that short
course unless they had worked for a year (or preferably three). We wanted them to really be
frustrated and be experienced and have context, and be ready to take ownership for their
successes and their failure and frustrations. And it did. It worked, it worked and it was great.
And it allowed me to come back and teach in a different way on campus. And even 19 year
olds, that I wouldn’t have had the courage to do, given the criticism and lack of respect for
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
25
�that from my colleagues. And it annoyed a lot of the undergraduates. If I show you my bio,
you know, my true bio – I describe myself as “Coyote the Trickster.” And my students
know that. Three or four times in a lecture I’ll say, “Okay, I’m going to be playing Coyote
with you.” Which means it’s not on the exam and I’m going to be confrontive and I’m going
to be playful, and I’m going to be flipping things on them. I’m going to flip them; I’ll lead
them down a path and wham! I’ll t-bone them with this idea, without airbags and they know
it. So I often tell them, “Hold on to your seat now, I’m going to play Coyote with you.”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And so I think that’s really important. I think one of the most important things you can give
people in an era of complexity and change (like our world is), is haunting metaphors. Never
let them be comfortable with what they know – which was the absolute opposite the way I
was educated, you know. This is it, this is truth, and it’s going to stay that way forever, and
it’s on the exam. But to give them haunting, relevant metaphors I think is great. And one of
the reasons when I think back I don’t see any critical mentors, most of the things that broke
me free to think were often novels and experiences in my past that haunted me.
BM:
Name some novels.
JK:
Oh, god! Everything from The Heart of Darkness to plays like Ibsen’s play An Enemy of
the People. I mean things that were really haunting. Well actually, Miller’s re-writing (or
getting ready for the stage) of Ibsen’s Enemy of the People is a lot easier: it’s like
Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov without the second coming part; or Bernard Shaw’s
Superman without when they go to Hades. All of those things haunted me and I think about
them over and over again. And all of a sudden the relevance to me and my profession just
leap out at me. So I’ve got a lot of kindred spirits that are dead and some that are alive as
well. And I think that’s critical for a professional. And to feel that you can speak to the dead
and the dead can speak to you, I think is a powerful, spiritual connection; and humbling.
So I always was a reader and still am. But good novels – I’m looking forward to reading
everything Joseph Conrad wrote. Lord Jim is a perfect example of a romantic, written
beautifully by a person who English wasn’t his first language: he was Polish. And he did
Heart of Darkness, which is – ah! You never recover from reading that little book. Have
you ever read The Heart of Darkness?
BM:
I haven’t.
JK:
Joseph Conrad.
BM:
Hm-mm.
JK:
You’ll never get over it. Apocalypse Now [film] was based on that and actually the making
of Apocalypse Now,
if you’re a movie person, rent it. It’s called “The Heart of Darkness”
[Hearts of Darkness: a Filmmaker's Apocalypse].
Coppola’s wife put it together while they
were making it. The making of the film – they were all drugged and in that tropical
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
26
�rainforest. It’s no wonder that creepy, haunting, operatic movie came out. And it is operatic:
full of tragedy, and ambiguity, and uncertainty, and blurry edges. It’s an impressionist piece
rather than, you know, an etching. So those things really affected the way I think and feel.
BM:
How are you thinking on the eve of your retirement?
JK:
Well, you know, it’s just something that’s always been in my job description. I knew it was
coming, I’m glad I lived long enough to do it and I still have some health and opportunity
ahead of me. And I’m focusing mostly on being. When we go down to the ranch, we just get
absorbed by that place. It owns us as much as we own it. And Kathy and I like each other’s
company and we’ve been nomads with all of our sabbaticals. And so we trust our ability to
get along together and manage and live in a place and live well. We’ve always done that. So
we’re much less uncertain than some of our colleagues are. And people keep asking us what
I’m going to do. And that’s just the wrong question, you know. I’m focusing on being. I’ve
been doing a lot, and I’ve accomplished a lot. But just being is different than that. And so
often the tragedy of retirement is so many people have their whole self-identity and life built
around “doing” that they don’t know how to “be.” And once you do that, take away the
doing that they’re comfortable with, their lives fall apart. So we’ve got a beautiful place to
go be. And after almost 50 years of marriage we still like waking up together, so that’s
important too.
BM:
Um-hmm, it is.
JK:
And that’s the most annoying question I get asked in my life is, “What do you do down
there?” Well, they’re already off on the wrong footstep if that’s the way they frame the verb,
frame the question!
BM:
[Laughing] Right, right.
JK:
A lot of times I’ll make up stuff just to give them an answer they’re comfortable with.
Because when you start talking about being together, after three minutes their eyes glass
over; they just don’t get it or they’re not interested. “What? You sit in bed for two hours and
drink coffee and tea and talk?” “Yeah.”
BM:
Well having lost the art of relaxation and just that chance to just –
JK:
Yeah. Well the land will absorb you, that’s part of the relationship: you’ve got to let the land
talk to you as much as you talk to it. And I don’t carry a weapon around anymore when I go
out in the woods. And when I see deer – I remember the first time I saw a big buck when I
watched it. And after watching it disappear, realize for the first time ever I didn’t have a
cross-hair on my pupil. You know, I was always watching the deer where I would shoot it.
BM:
Sure.
JK:
I was focusing exactly on that spot. Even when I had no intention of shooting it and had no
means to, or never mind the desire. So that was kind of liberating.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
27
�BM:
So one of the questions on this long list of questions that is here –
JK:
We can’t go too much longer.
BM:
Oh my goodness! Yeah.
JK:
Because it’s 3:20 already.
BM:
Yeah, okay. Let’s finish this side of the tape and then we’ll stop for now, or stop for this
afternoon.
You know, in looking at – this is just so rich with relationships with people, with students,
with colleagues, with mentors or people who you admire that aren’t even alive or maybe
you’ve never met. You know, part of this project is looking at that relationship with the
place called Logan Canyon (right out here).
JK:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And I wonder if you would just share a few of those memories before we sign off for today.
JK:
With Logan Canyon?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
The first relationship I have with Logan Canyon was that surprising afternoon I drove
through here. Tired and boy, it just woke me right up. I never forgot it, and I was just
astounded. Again, any kind of satisfaction or response to any kind of event is heavily
influenced by our expectations. And as I qualify that, my expectations were so low, the
shock was magnified.
BM:
You mentioned sage brush, and –
JK:
Yeah. I mean I was really impressed with Crater Lake, but I kind of knew it was going to be
spectacular.
BM:
Right.
JK:
Still took my breath away when I first looked at it. But reading the diary of Pinchot’s front
man who went up here in 1895 – what was his name? Copies of his diaries are in the Special
Collections. Have you read them?
BM:
Uh, no.
JK:
Shame on you! You have got to read that! In fact, there’s one great section he says, he’s up
there and he says, “There’s no trees of value up on the mountain, it’s just all aspen.”
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
28
�BM:
Oh!
JK:
Now we’re trying to get it back and worried about aspen coming back. Oh man! I used to
have that as part of my Principles of Forestry course. And he’s got articles written about it,
and people have written – and the Special Collections librarian is a really neat guy.
BM:
Is that Brad?
JK:
Brad, yeah.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
He’ll know who I’m talking about.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
He was working for the Forest Service, he was looking at this public land before it became
National Forest; you read his description of Logan too on a weekend, it’s kind of cool. He
wasn’t from the local culture. But people like that – I never liked history in high school, but
it was never about people and relationships: it was about dates, and deaths, and wars and
stuff like that. So you know, that’s a wonderful opportunity to walk in his footprints up
through this canyon that looked a bit like “All Quiet on the Western Front.” It had all been
lawned off and grazed. It literally looked more beat up than it does now. And I bet you Thad
Box said that when he first saw Logan Canyon about 20 years before I did. You said you
were interviewing Thad. You know, you look up there now and it’s probably in better much
ecological condition than it was 100 years ago.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
I first started just fishing it. But we’d take the kids up there; we’d go cross-country skiing.
We’d use Green Canyon and we’d go up here and ski after school, on real quick day trips
after work was done. We’d tube down it – the canal comes right out at the back of our
property. We’d tube down it in the summer 50 times – day and night. Sometimes 11 o’clock
at night you’d come back, or 10 o’clock at night you’d come back from a party and the kids
would be watching television; it would be a full moon and it would be July and they’d say,
“Let’s go tubing!” “Oh man! Just came back from a party, it’s been a tough. . .” “Come on
Dad!” “Oh, what the hell!” And up we’d go. Kathy would drop us off.
BM:
[Laughing] And you’d come down in the dark?
JK:
Oh yeah. But you know the dark here is so light. From back east, I never could understand
how nocturnal animals made it. Out west, you could see – I could be a nocturnal predator,
damn near, most of the days of the month! But mostly it was fishing, and cross-country
skiing it. We would go up to Bear Lake and come over and we’d come back down Mink
Creek, come back down, you know, down through the next –
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
29
�BM:
Emigration Canyon?
JK:
Emigration Canyon, yup.
BM:
Yup.
JK:
That’s a wonderful loop. We’d do that every season. And my most intimate relationship
with the canyon in a way, was when I was the first person to run summer camp after the
originals: Ted Daniels and Ray Moore ran it all through World War, you know, through the
‘30s and World War II. And I took it over from them in, probably about 1970 maybe,
something like that. And I was the first, you know, guy to do that. I mean the first person to
do that; just when women were starting to come in up there. And I’d ride my motorcycle –
[Stop and start recording.]
[Tape 2 of 3: B]
BM:
Tape 2, side 2 and we’re continuing with Logan Canyon.
You’re on your motorcycle.
JK:
Well, you know, just driving up through there on a motorcycle at 6 o’clock in the morning.
So you’d get up, you’d eat and finish eating breakfast by 7:30 so I could get some leftover
eggs and a cup of coffee by the time I got up there. Early in the morning, quiet, nothing
there – ah! It was gorgeous with a motorcycle.
But you know, most of my memories of course with summer camp are running that old
facility and dealing with young people and all the things that went with it.
BM:
Like what?
JK:
Oh, you know, just feeding them and manage them, and dealing with the issues. You know
the first year I was in charge of it – they always allowed dogs up there. We stopped that
about the second year I was in charge of that because the kids were less responsible with
everything, including their pets. And one of the first Forestry students had became pregnant
and had a baby without a husband here, and she came to me and said, “I’d like to come to
summer camp.” And I said, “Well sure, you have to.” And she said, “But I don’t have a
babysitter and I’m breastfeeding my child. Could I bring my baby to camp?” And in those
things you should go check with the department head and go check with the dean I guess.
But it was just a sense of justice that just hit me, from mostly reading and other things. And
of course being raised as a shanny Irishman too, we always focused on justice and we were
treated unfairly, you know. But anyhow, it occurred to me – I was going to go check with
the leadership – and I thought, “Wait a minute. If we allow people to bring dogs there, how
could we ever say ‘No?’ I mean I don’t have to go listen to these people. And the fact that
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
30
�they told me to qualify it or say ‘No.’ I resented and resisted. And they might tell me that
and I’d have to enforce that stupid decision.” So I said, “Certainly you can do that.”
Well, when the word got out, everyone was you know, upset. And even some of the
students, well. That baby was passed around and in the first week it didn’t know who it’s
parent was, you know. It was part of the group. When she had to do stuff there was always a
willing hand to put that little baby in their backpack or underneath their jacket. We’d take it
out in the snow and everything. And it really had an influence on the culture, as did women.
BM:
How so?
JK:
Well, I mean it made us more human. When male cultures dominated, there was always a
goat. I mean males I think were so insecure they had to put a benchmark, like a brass bench
marker to know what the elevation was, so they could feel taller. And with the women up
there – I remember, this was the first year – I could see the goat that they picked out within
a day or two. And I mentioned it – there were three very powerful women there – and I
mentioned it and I was going to have to intervene. And one of them, God bless her (and I
can’t remember her name) – when one of the alpha males was putting this kid down, she
said, “What needs are being fulfilled when you put another human being down like that?
When you hurt another person, how does that make you feel good?” “Well, I’m not hurting
him” [Inaudible] You little punk, you know, you little shit. “Yeah, yeah I am.” “Ah, I’m not
really. Well I don’t really mean to hurt him.” She just – and then he got red and flustered.
And he made such a fool of himself that [snap], the sport was off!
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
I mean that really, that really hit me. And I just looked at her and she looked at me, and I
had such respect for that woman. And by having a baby there and I remember all the
concern when we were going to bring women up to camp. You know, there was, “Oh! How
are we going to pee in the woods together?” Crap, you know that stuff!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
You know it was so absurd to have a bunch of PhDs sitting around the damn table, talking
about such irrelevant, peripheral rubbish! “Well we won’t get to tell jokes together. What if
we’ve got to fart around girls?” You know that kind of a thing. [Laughing]
This was really cute, you’ll appreciate this. And I don’t even mind if it’s on tape. We got
there and we had a huge snow storm. In fact, you can still see mature aspen trees that bent
over from getting about 16 inches of wet snow. And this was in the quarter system, so this
would have been about the 10th of June. It was huge! And most of the young people didn’t
bring adequate footwear. So it was a serious storm and all the trees were bent over. And we
couldn’t even drive out – you know we’re not that far off the highway. The highway crews
weren’t ready for it, everything was shut down. We’re eating breakfast and they’re wading
through snow (this is the first week of class), “Well, we’re not going to go out are we Prof?”
“Certainly we are! We’ve got everyday scheduled, you’re going out. What do you think is
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
31
�going to happen when you’re working in the field? Certainly you’re going to do that.”
“Well, we don’t have shoes.” You know, I had more wool socks, I think, then anybody. So
we started sharing socks. We took all the bread out and used bread bags. I said, “You put
that underneath your sneakers. You mean you came up here without boots? You know, I’m
sorry. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for you. We’re not going to put you where your life’s
at risk, and we’re not going to let your feet freeze off, but they’re going to be bloody cold.
And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that.” “Well, you were such a nice guy in
Principles class.” “Well, this is a different learning experience.”
So all of that. And about two or three days later when we had a chance to go down and get
boots, there was still snow as we’re going up to do our first day of cruising. And the guys
were trying to tell jokes and were on the edge and with caution. And it was awkward, it was
kind of cute. And walking up through the snow – we drove in open trucks then. So we drive
up and someone was telling jokes (I don’t remember that part). But I remember it was
within the first week or ten days and they were trying to learn how to deal with women
colleagues (as we were) with women students. And we’re walking up deep in snow, and one
of the women tripped up in the front and said, “How is getting screwed by a Forester like
spring snow?” And everyone freezes, and then no comment. She said, “Well you can always
count on it being sloppy, but you never know how many inches you get, or how long it’s
going to last!”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
Well, I went crazy. I just started laughing, my knees buckled. The guys thought they had to
laugh – I mean that really hit them where it hurt. [Laughing] The guys thought they had to
laugh, but it sounded like rusty plumbing. You can hear them all going [imitates forced
laughter]. They weren’t having fun at all. And I just laughed. And then I felt badly because,
you know I was embarrassing the guys too much. But after that – I mean all the ice got
broken, you know. And it just made better people out of everybody. And a lot of the
stereotypical bullshit got knocked, you know, which was a huge learning experience for
everybody.
But it was exactly the learning experience they needed to go work in a post-NEPA culture in
the agencies. And most of all professors weren’t getting that education; they were stuck in
the old, traditional molds. And they didn’t expose themselves to the agencies. By me being
turned down as a full professor, my reference group shifted. Where what the chief of the
Forest Service and a half a dozen Forest Supervisors I respected, or a colleague that I was
teaching short courses with (like Jack Ward Thomas) – what they thought of Jim Kennedy
as a person, professional meant so much more than Thad Box (or even my department head)
thought. And so that really liberated me from this place, where I could do what I wanted to
do for better reasons.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And it was about that time when I started to recognize the validity and empowerment of the
puppet model, you know. I never liked people calling me “puppets” for reading the Bible, or
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
32
�calling me a “sheep” you know. I was anything but a “sheep,” damn it. And a “puppet?” No,
by god, I was in charge! Nobody was a puppet master to me. But when Thad really messed
up my life for a couple of weeks after he rejected me as a full professor, I was obviously a
puppet and he had strings. And my only way of dealing with that was to let go of the damn
things. You know, the only way a puppet master has any control over you is you hold on to
the other end of the string. You let go of the string, whew! You know, he’s just flipping a
piece of string in space, which isn’t very satisfying to puppet masters.
And so I decided I was a puppet and a lot of strings were up there, and too many of them I
was holding on to and I didn’t have to do that. But I still recognized I needed respect, and I
still recognized I needed self-respect. But I just went other places to gain that, more than I
did in the past. So I became much more annoyingly independent of this group, than I had
my first 20 years here. But it allowed me to go into the agencies and really do some
powerful work and pivotal work. You know, you have an impact on a student you’ve got to
wait a long time. When you have an impact on a frustrated professional, six years in the
Forest Service (and half of them were women), you know you can see an immediate
response.
And a lot of the reasons the women were having trouble was they were blaming too much of
their frustration and their failure on their gender. Which, you know, wasn’t necessarily it at
all. I didn’t fit into the Forest Service as an early professional. And if I was a woman I’d
have used that to blame too. I’m sure I would have. But having them consider that maybe
the reasons they’re not fitting in and not being effective as a role model, and being
perceived as an ugly American in a foreign culture like the Forest Service – as they would
be if they were in Zambia – behaving like a goddess that knew what was good for wildlife
and was going to bulldoze over anyone that she could to do god’s work, and do it right and
get all the credit herself. And that just may be why you’re failing. It’s just the way you’re
trying to execute; and the image you need to make yourself feel comfortable as a rebel, as
someone that confronts people. And when people don’t respond to you, it’s obviously
because they don’t care or know enough to be as good as you, you know. Which is a great
escape clause – then you don’t have to deal with your consequences (which isn’t very
mature and very effective in the long term).
All sorts of issues like that we had to deal with. Which were hard to say, and really hard to
receive. But boy, I’ll tell you, unlike teaching undergraduates – you always got contact. And
I used to fear as a young educator, negative contact with me: anger, rejection, fury. I did not
seek that out, but that’s contact. That’s intimacy. And unlike the students sleeping in class,
or not showing up, or looking up at the ceiling, or not getting it – just taking notes just to get
a grade. And so I no longer felt fear of that. Because in order to do your job in a week with
these frustrated, inter-disciplinary professionals, you had to make contact quickly. And they
were so primed you could hardly avoid it even if you wanted to. And some of the people
that we first brought in tried to avoid it because they didn’t know how they could handle
that, they didn’t want to disturb people. But by Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, even the
tougher ones just often came around to take personal responsibility for what they were
doing; much more so than they were. And to be more forgiving of themselves, as well as the
system, and not be blaming – exploiting blame rather than keeping it where it belongs. And
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
33
�even if it doesn’t belong with you, even if you’re treated shabbily – like you could probably
consider you were with what you’ve put into environmental education with your job. The
only way you can empower yourself is your response to that.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
The decision has been made, regardless of the jerk or the situation. The only way you can
come out of that whole and more whole, is to decide on your best responses to that. To keep
you going and to be the person and professional you want to be.
BM:
Um-hmm. And it makes you reach further. It makes you reach further than what you think
you have. I’m sure the students felt the same way with forestry camp too. That you know,
we’re being embarrassed here but it makes you look inside and say, “What do I have and
how do I respond to this? And how do I be the better person?”
That metaphor of the puppet strings – that’s perfect. We just hang on to those and –
JK:
Yeah, it’s amazing, especially when you look at the data. For example, we were getting – in
those days inflation was 5%. If you did well, everybody got a 2% raise. Then you had 1% to
divide up for performance, which usually came out to maybe another 2-3% more salary a
year. God! Even if you’re in the money, that’s such chicken feed. When I was being a
consultant, I was making three times as much as a raise in a week; which was really helpful
financially because both of our kids didn’t stay in Utah. One was at Whitman College
(which was really expensive) and one was at Georgetown. So it helped us put both kids
through really expensive schools.
And that really was a test for me, as a human being as well as a professional, to deal with
those very human problems and not pander to them; to just be tough love. But they always
knew that we cared about them and we cared about the Forest Service. You know, Jack was
part of the Forest Service and I, in my heart, never left the Forest Service and never left the
National Forest (which I cherish more than the agency that’s the steward in this point in
time).
So that failure was really one of the best blessings I ever had. Now, as it worked out Thad
took a retirement buyout, Joe Chapman became our dean and he was on my committee who
recommended that I be a full professor. So the first months of his reign, he came and said, “I
want you to go up for full professor.” And this was a year after I was turned down.” I said,
“I’m too busy. Besides, you know what Joe? I don’t give a damn about it that much.”
[Laughing] “I don’t care if I ever have a full professor.” You know, in those days you never
got a raise for it. There was no money. And the year that I became a full professor, there
were no raises at the university – so I got zero! In fact, I said, “I’m going to turn it down and
go for it again next year.” “You can’t do that. Once they give it to you that’s it!”
But anyhow, I mean all that stuff was really important at the time, but it’s like being stood
up for the Junior Prom: at the time it’s really a serious issue! [Laughing] But you know,
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
34
�BM:
within a few months or a few years it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. And now it’s just
kind of funny.
Yeah. Well they say, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”
JK:
Yeah, that’s Nietzsche. That can be taken too much.
BM:
Right, right.
JK:
Yeah, and everything that Nietzsche says I take with a grain of – I always take with
qualifications. He was twisted in a way; real bright, brilliant.
Anyhow, that’s some of my summer camp stories and these young professionals. Plus the
other thing (issues) is just dealing with if they were going to be drinking and managing
damage control. You know? “I don’t want anybody driving! I am serious! I’ll be all over
you if I find out a bunch of you went out, you know, got half drunk here and then went up
without a designated driver. I’ll be the damn designated driver, but I do not – do you
understand that? I mean I’m going to be in your face, I’m going to beat you over the head
with a stick when you’re hung over! I am never going to trust you again, do you got that?” I
mean I was just really clear.
[Laughing]
So that the kind of stuff that you just did not want tragedy. And it could easily happen with
that much youth, testosterone and death machines around. But once they got that, and it was
legitimate, they knew that was also an expression of caring.
Okay, I’ll do a little bit more of this some time this week, but my voice is running out on
me.
BM:
We’ll stop for today.
JK:
It’s the allergies too.
BM:
Thank you so much.
JK:
Do you often have to break in these interviews?
BM:
No, not too often.
Okay, so we’re going to finish your interview today with the first part of Jim Kennedy.
We’ll come back later on this week.
Thank you, Jim, for meeting with us.
[End tape 2: B; Begin Tape 3: A]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
35
�BM:
Okay, we’re here with Jim Kennedy. We’re doing our second day of our interview on Logan
Canyon Land Use Management Project. I’m Barbara Middleton and it is Tuesday, May 5th.
We’re here again on the campus of Utah State University. Continuing onto tape 3, side 1.
Jim.
JK:
Okay. I guess we’re starting with religion and spirituality, although I never separated
religion and spirituality early in life. I was raised in a very, very religious family. And I’m
still God haunted. And probably if I had to classify myself as anything I’m a “Jack
Catholic.” And that’s out of some good experiences I had. I consider all religions human
creations, with people with feet of clay: both those who create it and those who continue it.
And so I never ask for perfection in a religion of anyone I knew – my neighbors or myself.
My grandmother and my mother in my parochial school years had an influence on me. In
terms of my relationship to the land, a lot of the religion training I got in the classroom, and
being required to go to confession once a week when you were seven years old (and you
almost had to make up sins just to have an interesting conversation with the priest). Those
were kind of rituals and a lot of times I couldn’t find spirituality there. Yet, I could come out
of Mass in the spring and hear honeybees up in a fresh, blooming apple tree and just take off
my good clothes and scamper up there and lay in the branches covered with white and pink
and odors and bees and sunlight – and you know you just melt all the barriers on your heart
and in your mind. And you could become part of something much bigger and much more
wonderful than yourself.
So in some ways, searching for spirituality and religion, and often being disappointed
(although not always, but when I was younger, pretty much most of the time), it had me
look elsewhere for spirituality. And I usually almost always found it in nature and solitude
usually – not activity. And out in nature was one of the few places I could slow down and
was captured and interested enough with my ADHD qualities, to find spirituality there. My
first considerations as professions, as a young boy in Philadelphia, were three Ps. They were
to be: a policeman, a politician or priest. And I had good role models in all of them; good,
honest, caring people who had a sense of social service and a sense of self bigger than who
they were, and sense of purpose. So I never had any bad run-ins with any negative role
models in those areas. More with teachers and neighbors and people like that.
And I also stay in my current religion, mainly out of a sense of loyalty. I’m still a Democrat,
I’m still a Catholic, but I’m not a baby boomer. My two brothers and my sisters are baby
boomers; they’ve all become Episcopalians and Republicans and have become embarrassing
wealthy – seriously wealthy. I’m talking tens of millions of dollars. We were all upwardly
mobile I guess, and climbing. I just never wanted the traditional – all the professions I really
(other than my initial kind of pressure to consider being a dentist), I never was attracted to
status or money or fancy cars or fancy clothes or power – in a sense of power in an
organization. I wanted power to change the world when it came to the way we used and
abused the land. And I wanted some power and influence over my own life too. I wanted to
be, what you call today, empowered.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
36
�But it saddens me that my siblings have betrayed their history. And I don’t know what
they’re going to, but I’m certainly not going to turn my back on a religion that my ancestors
have fought and died for for hundreds of years. To do a makeover on myself, or be more
presentable to my peer group I’m trying to impress. And you know, I wouldn’t change my
political party either. My grandfather had scars all over his body from being beaten with
bicycle chains with fish hooks in them when he was a labor union organizer. And so that
also ties with my orientation with policy.
Although I worked at the policy level, being a special assistant to the director of the BLM,
and being very close friends and respected by a couple of the Forest Service chiefs – I never
was comfortable or impressed or felt in place on top of Mount Olympus in Washington, or
at the regional level in Portland, or down in Ogden with the Forest Service. I always liked
being with the working class, you know. The foresters, the wildlife biologists, the
technicians; they’ve always been my identification group, my peer group. That’s where life
and interest in action occurred. So if anything, I switched from being an economist to
someone interested in organizational dynamics, organizational behavior, organizational
change. Although, you can’t put that on your letter head; no one gets it. You know, if you
say, “administration,” that immediately puts you down with the secretaries. I don’t mind
being there with status, but it’s just plum inaccurate. So I always would put “policy” there
because I didn’t – it would just keep them from asking me embarrassing, annoying
questions. And “policy and economics” – people would salute that and just let you be
yourself.
BM:
So at the time you’re talking about, with the BLM, again – give us the date.
JK:
That was in the first Clinton administration.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
I think it was – I’ll have to check for sure. But I know it was the year before the Republican
takeover of Congress. When that happened, the BLM was so rattled. And ironically, the
Congressman Hansen was the new head of the Natural Resources Committee in the House.
And he and I got along okay; I mean I liked him as a person. I would have even been happy
to have him as a grandfather. As a policy person values – his views on our values, how we
should think about the value and manage of public lands was very much opposed to mine.
But Mike Dombeck, the director of the BLM then, asked me to please stay on a year. So like
a baseball player or something, USU let them buy out my contract and kept me there to
pitch hit for them. Mainly because I was trustworthy and Jack Ward Thomas and Mike
Dombeck liked and respected me, and I could run back and forth between Interior and the
Ag building and we could cut a lot of deals, and they could do it with confidence. They
could come up with an agreement, and they’d just turn to me and whoever was representing
the Forest Service and said, “Well we’ll let Kennedy and Barb, you know, work out the
details.” And you and I, for example, would get together and work out a memo. I never tried
to get a penny for them for research or anything special, and they knew that. So they knew I
wasn’t trying to get into their pocket or exploit the influence and friendship we had together.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
37
�But even doing that with the BLM, a lot of times I was out in the field doing stuff, if I could
do it. I mean I would look for reasons to get out and work with universities that were
historic, black colleges they were working in partnerships with to try to diversify their
culture, issues.
BM:
In the natural resources area?
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
Well, yeah. But they were geology, but even engineers (any skills the Forest Service could
use) public affairs, for example. It’s much easier to find an African-American interested in
public affairs in eastern shore Maryland, than one of the traditional black colleges there.
Queen Ann: Queen Ann of Maryland or Queen Ann of Virginia? But they were interested in
recruiting people and I was an academic and had respect. And so I would go do a lot of
work for them in that way, just to keep in touch with what was going on out there.
BM:
And did you see that change in the time from then until now?
JK:
Well it was changing then. My immediate supervisor was the assistant director for the BLM
– it was a black, woman, wildlife biologist. Really tough as nails, Brooklyn gal, that I loved
and respected. And she would cringe at using those words. She was a street fighter; although
she had a good heart, but she didn’t like herself very much. She tried to define herself by
what she was doing, and that’s pretty hollow. She loved film and didn’t like going out to
film by herself as much, or going out to eat afterwards alone – and she was a loner. And my
wife was taking care of her father and going up to New Jersey a lot. It was kind of spooky
and some people got the wrong idea, but Denise never came across that we’d be involved!
[Laughing] And anyway, it would insult the promises we made to people that mattered, but
we spent quite a bit of evenings out together having fun and talking about life (as much as
she would do that).
So yeah, I would live a long time at Utah State University before I work for a black wildlife
biologist woman.
BM:
Right. So in looking in your role; I’m trying to understand that a little bit more so that
people that are listening to this get a feel for when you go back to Washington and you are
doing some of these special assignments. That sounds fascinating to me to be able to go out
and look at the kinds of young people that are coming through the program and encourage
people from other diverse cultures, religions, races, whatever; to be able to come to the
field. What do you say to them? How do you attract them to something like natural
resources?
JK:
Well, you try to find out number one, if they have a passion about being a professional, or if
they’re just in the rank and privileged and other things like that – then they want to be a
lawyer, or business person. And usually you can’t capture them because their needs are
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
38
�different and they probably wouldn’t be very good if I did capture them. But people that
want to make a difference, that have some pioneering spirit, that have some attachment to
the land. But an awful lot of African-Americans see the land as the enemy; that kept them in
chains as much as any political, social or cultural stuff. You know, working in the swamps,
logging under miserable, dangerous conditions, working in the mills, working in the mines,
working in the fields.
BM:
Yep.
JK:
I have fond memories about my attachment to the land, but we kind of own some of the
land, or a few people that I knew and cared about did own the land; but it was a big
difference. And it was always a round-trip ticket: if I didn’t like being abused, or come
football season or school, I’d be out of there. And they didn’t have that option. So that was a
hard sell. That was really a hard sell with blacks, especially in the southeast. And some of
them wanted to get out of urban areas, and you could sell them on that. But I looked for a
spark of professionalism and wanting to make a difference. And those who want to entertain
a surprising option that they hadn’t really thought about. And a lot of the people I talked to
were single moms in those traditional, black colleges. And you could talk about the security
that we get and the support that they wouldn’t find in industry. And so I was actively
recruiting them, as well as talking to the people who – when I’d leave would hopefully
continue or increase that activity.
BM:
Were there programs actually growing at that time in D.C. with these agencies?
JK:
Oh yeah. Like Haskell Indian School [Haskell Indian Nations University] in Kansas. And
they had some formal, signed partnerships, and some Hispanic schools in New Mexico –
heavily populated Hispanic schools.
BM:
And you were also seeing then, the nature of the culture in Washington changing with the
personnel that were hired. You mentioned Denise, the black wildlife biologist. What other
kinds of entities within the Forest Service were seeing more diversity?
JK:
Well, I mean initially it was at the entry level and that was part of the problem. The cultural
diversity was gender, ethnic and professional. That’s how I got involved with the wildlife
fisheries biologists in the Forest Service because in the ‘70s when they were starting to hire
women (well NEPA forced them into hiring professional diversity). Presidential
proclamations motivated them to hire gender diversity and ethnic diversity. And often the
only jobs that were available then were not more foresters it was all of a sudden they needed
to hire a lot of wildlife/fisheries biologists. And so without intention and without
recognizing the consequences, they got double whammies: they would hire a black woman
or Hispanic woman biologist, and they’d score triple points, like in Scrabble. However, that
was three often stress points with a person with triple uniqueness trying to fit into the
agency, especially moving the line by being successful on the ground. They were change
agents in three ways; and most had the attitudes and skills, or the expectations of that, and
they were just thrown into the whirlwind and didn’t know it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
39
�And many of the line officers and their peers wouldn’t have hired a woman, an ethnic or
professional diversity, if they weren’t forced to. And NEPA and all those legislations were
change agent legislations; they were social experiments. And these poor people didn’t know
that they were being dropped into an organization. They thought they were going to go out
and count beaver or birds or something and wear hip boots for the ten years and shocking
trout. And then when they found threatened and endangered species, their peers would
congratulate them for completely changing their professional lives by making it much more
complex, and slowing down projects.
And they didn’t know how – they didn’t want to do it. They didn’t want to be political; they
didn’t want to be change agents. They didn’t have the right table manners to do it; they had
lousy expectations. So before I went to Washington, mostly as a carry on for my passion as
an educator, I started to look around and the Forest Service (especially line officers at the
Forest Supervisors and Regional Forester level) by the mid-late ‘70s were seeing this dropout rate. And these young people were having such conflict fitting in and being effective in
the Forest Service; they were like very unsuccessful Peace Corps workers.
BM:
Stop for one second. I’m concerned about this tape. [Stop and start recording] We’re fine.
JK:
So I was with a Regional Forester. We used to have a lot of connection. Of course many of
the people down in the Ogden Region 4 office were USU grads. So once a year we would
have a banquet down in Ogden. (Now this is a quick, 15-20 years ago.) I was down there
with a Regional Forester and he was talking about all the new people they were getting:
hiring more people with Master’s degrees, having more science in the Forest Service. And
he also had been talking about the difficulty it was for them to hire and keep good women
and biologists really (many of which came from Utah State University).
And I said, “Well you know, you have science, your science has improved. Let’s take
recreation for example, when I left you guys you were not applying science to recreation;
now you’ve got some of the best recreation researchers on the planet in the Forest Service.
You are doing all sorts of things. But you know much more about the hikers in the high
Uintas than you know about how and why young people come work for the Forest Service
in these new ‘-ologist’, non-traditional positions, how and why they are not effective, how
and why they stay or leave.”
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
I said, “You’re not doing any research on that, it’s a folk art. And so you don’t have a
chance until you start finding out how and why that system’s failing. And so don’t tell me
you’re scientific there.” And I said, “And really, does it mean you care more about high
Uinta hikers than you do your own people?”
BM:
So what was their response?
JK:
Well you know, we were having beer and having a lot of fun. And he said, “You know,
you’ve got a point there.” And something else came up and I brought it up again, and he
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
40
�turned – one of those serendipitous things – and he turned to his administrative officer and
said, “Can you give a couple thousand bucks to Kennedy so he can do some research and we
can shut him up?” And he said, “Yeah, I think we could do that.” So I immediately got back
and called Region 6 in Oregon (I had a contact there), and said, “How about if we compare
foresters with your entry-level, one to three years in permanent positions, your entry-level
foresters, range cons, and wildlife biologists, and men and women? Let’s see how and why
they’re fitting into the culture.”
And it really was that often women wildlife biologists had more trouble because they were
biologists than because of their gender; although it’s hard to separate out the two. Wildlife
biologists were seen as obstructionists; they were always telling the foresters and the
engineers and the range cons what they couldn’t do; why they had to spend more money and
more time doing something different, or doing what they normally did a little bit differently,
or make 180 degree turn. A lot of the biologists and a group and individual self-image –
they call themselves “combat biologists.” The Nez Perce said, “Screw negotiations, go for
the throat.” And they had this wolverine with a rabbit by the throat, combat biologist on the
Nez Perce. Well that just set up conflict. And so they were having conflict and they were
taking no ownership for that.
And so I was a forest economist, and not a Forest Service person and not that well known in
the agency, so I recruited Jack Ward Thomas. Because he was a highly respected Forest
Service professional, very good politically and loved and respected throughout. And we hit
it off. And so we developed a one week training session. Well we did the research – I could
give you the reprints – which was the only research done in that area that I know of, in
natural resources; then or since. And of course it just broke my heart to see some of my best
and brightest students come back one, two, or three years after being in the agencies, failing
as a person and a professional, and as an employee. Being miserable, being unsuccessful,
not really helping the land or their people or future generations, and not taking any
ownership for their failure: blaming it all on evil, external forces, men, politics, the damn
foresters and engineers. And that just broke my heart. I mean that was worse than watching
the land erode. And you can’t have healthy land without healthy people managing it.
BM:
Right, right.
JK:
So that’s what really changed my career. And I got involved in studying cultures and the
interaction of culture, cultural change and changing power. And so we developed this
training course that really ran about 80% of the current entry level; within five years the
entry level wildlife/fisheries biologists through that program. And it was known, in some
regions, as Peace Corps training for biologists.
BM:
Did you have a title for that training program?
JK:
Yeah. It was a formal training program; part of the formal wildlife/fisheries biologist
training program, called “Entry Level Training.”
BM:
Okay.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
41
�JK:
We usually went out and held it on the sites or among the forests, rather than bringing them
to the universities.
BM:
And most of them were in the Pacific Northwest region?
JK:
No, all over – eastern regions –
BM:
Oh, okay.
JK:
And it went to New Mexico; a couple in Region 4 did come up to Utah State; one in
Montana, a couple in Alaska.
BM:
You know, it’s interesting that you make that comment because I remember in Oregon,
when I was there the group that was really being crucified were the archaeologists.
JK:
Them too. And landscape architects and the soft scientists – those “ologists” that didn’t have
any kind of entry level training like that suddenly started showing up at these short courses.
As did an awful lot of mid-career biologists that really hadn’t gotten over the pain from the
way they were treated in their involvement with the Forest Service. And in some cases some
of the people who should have quit and left were those who didn’t. Usually you lose your
best and your brightest in the first three years. Those that stay in often stay in and cope in a
stoic, bitter way. And sadly they become toxic mentors when we send our summer students
out, or young, permanent people or co-op students.
You know, because some of these isolated, ineffectual biologists can be interesting
characters. They’re like Robin Hood stuck up in the Nez Perce – no one likes them but
that’s because no one can handle their vision and truth and devotion to the land. And they’re
all dog loyal to the agency, where I care about the land and the birds and birds and the
cougars. And you can come with that encased, glorious, victimization image of yourself.
And there are always plenty of whining support groups you can get around with alcohol,
especially, to help convince you that you really are the pure of heart and the agency and the
politics and the stupid locals just don’t appreciate you. And that’s how Peace Corps
volunteers become ugly Americans and dysfunctional, and really betray the faith of that
position that they’re in Zambia or Uganda. And we use those examples all the time.
BM:
Hmm. Now was this during a time when the group in the Forest Service (and I don’t know
the exact name), but the environmental –
JK:
Exactly.
BM:
Employee ethics?
JK:
The Forest Service for Employee Ethics. Yeah.
BM:
Yes.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
42
�JK:
And the current president and CEO of that is one of our PhD students who never finished,
Dave Iverson, from the regional office. Who took all of his coursework at Utah State
University – in Ecology at Utah State University.
Yeah, that was a splinter group that broke off because of the frustration and anger they had,
and sense of betrayal with the Forest Service. A lot of it though was their personal,
professional betrayal. Because we never talked about career development; we talk about
managing all these precious resources out there and the ecosystem – your career is pretty
precious too, and it’s a non-renewable resource if you’re not careful. For example, an awful
lot of these people had this image of promotion of the “Cinderella” model: they were going
to go out and keep their hands pure of politics, they were never going to kiss anyone’s ass or
snuggle up to any line officer; they were just going to work hard, work Sundays, work their
ass off, do good work and their Prince Charming was going to come down in a clean truck
and pluck them up out of the stream and say, “What can I give you? Come to the
mountaintop and pick your career.”
And when you put it that way they’d all just kind of look at you. And some people would
even start crying. And they say, “That’s stupid!” And not only that, it’s arrogant. Because
when you put yourself in that position you set yourself up for a lose/lose position. Because
if you’re not picked up by your Prince Charming, it’s not your fault, you’re being pure –
you’re being a pure Cinderella or Cinderello (if you’re a male). And the whole fault is in the
ignorant, insensitive, bureaucratic, political system. And so not only do you feel betrayed
and unappreciated, but there’s no way you can fix it because you won’t get involved. And
it’s just this death spiral for people and professionals – it’s a tragedy that Shakespeare would
recognize and would make much more poetic than me. But I saw it and it bothered me, and
a few other people did too.
And so ironically when people like Mike Dombeck and Jack Thomas end up in high power
positions, so did a lot of other wildlife biologists. They were so ready (talk about the seed
crystal), they were so ready for us – whether they realized it or not, most of them didn’t
realize it. And initially they thought we were a setup to bring all these wildlife biologists
together for a week at a nice ski resort that wasn’t being used in May; play nice so they
would lay down and let the rock trucks roll over them. And they came in with cohesive and
ready to – “You just try to teach me something, you just try!” You know, you’d see the body
language at the opening night. And normally, when I was younger that would’ve terrified
me, I’d had wet my pants. But I learned that was engagement, and what I always seek in a
group is engagement. And I get less engagement with undergraduates than I do with anyone.
You can’t avoid engagements with serious, involved professionals; they just challenge you.
And if you can rise to that challenge, that’s really cool. And again, it really allowed me to
come back as a much more confident peer among my other peers (who still have Cinderella
models), and often directly and indirectly project that and teach that to their students: don’t
get involved in politics, don’t compromise—all of that stuff that’s just dysfunctional.
BM:
Well and that also follow with then, don’t even come to the table and negotiate; don’t even
bring your ideas and don’t feel like you’re part of a team.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
43
�JK:
That’s right.
BM:
So how does that eventually affect the perception of yourself, and your whole role within
that agency?
JK:
Yeah. Well, you become disempowered.
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
Bitter. And it’s tragic; it’s a tragedy. We were pretty effective on that, plus we had a lot of
fun. We really did. I am more confident that I changed more lives per capita that way than
with undergraduates.
BM:
Um-hmm. Can you recall one of the good arguments that somebody brought to that
workshop? I mean it sounds like an incredibly engaging week – like an energy drain too.
Whew!
JK:
Yeah. You could think it through and when you represent it in the Cinderella model and you
have Jack Thomas and I doing that, you know, and you get them laughing; and sometimes
we’d act it out. You’d get them; you’d play “gotcha” the whole time. But they knew Jack
and I really, really cared about them and the future of National Forests, and wanted them to
be an effective part of it. We wanted to empower them. And they all considered themselves
scientists – and you would show them the numbers – there were a lot of numbers on this to
look at the failures. And we’d look at the interviews and the survey research results that I
got my studies with the Forest Service. And many of them were part of those studies, and I
made sure the results got back to the participants.
We were playing coyote, you know. That’s when I first started developing this image of
myself in a bio as “Coyote the Trickster,” who I love. That is such a wonderful image and a
god. Christianity is so bereft of the power of having an image like that. I mean, actually
Peter was always one of my favorite apostles because he was so ADHD and wacko! He
wanted to walk on water . . . and what Jesus of Nazareth was just smoking when he saw
that guy as a rock!
[Looking for files] I’m looking for – I had to change all my files around because they’re
kicking me out of this space. And I don’t know where my bios are. Hmm. You keep me
going; I want to find those even if I didn’t want to immediately give them to you because I
know where in the heck they were. That’s normally where I kept them. Huh.
BM:
I’m going to stop the tape.
[Stop and start recording.]
BM:
We’re back on.
JK:
He’s always being caught for his hubris (as the ancient Greeks would call it).
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
44
�BM:
This is the Trickster you’re talking about?
JK:
Yeah, Coyote the Trickster. And we would say to them, “We’re Coyote the Trickster. We’re
here to cause you to wonder, to question things. We’re here to annoy you. We’re not here to
play nice. We’re going to be confrontative; we’re going to be honest. We get away with this
in the short courses because “it will be abundantly clear to you that we really care about you
and we want you to succeed and we want you to figure out ways to finesse and to use Judo.
To know how the organization works, and rather than Sumo wrestling.”
I mean most of these people were the Sumo wrestler model: they were going to squat down
and run up against the bureaucracy. All the engineers and foresters; all the damn men were
reactionaries and they became road kill. And they’d get up valiantly and wham!
[End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B]
BM:
We are on tape 3 and we are on side 2, continuing with Jim Kennedy. Just talking about
Judo versus Sumo wrestlers in how we approach things.
JK:
Well, you know, all things are a relationship. And your relationship with an organization is
huge. And I know this from experience. I don’t know this from self-help books; I mean I’ve
been road kill. I’ve acted out against authority. Back in my bedroom bureau I probably have
40 Purple Hearts from serious injuries in combat with bureaucracies. And they always win,
you know, especially if you confront them with impatience and arrogance. But that’s how
heroes were trained: from the comic books, with our professors, with movies. You know,
this is my alternate – I have my bio here – but on the back I said:
I have an alternate, more honest and descriptive Jim Kennedy bio sketch. I
am Coyote the Trickster. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to doubt,
wonder, search, so you and I might be more aware and wondering learners
together. I’m not here to teach you to know more or better. I’m here to
annoy and stimulate you to be a learner and not a knower, and as such I
honor your inherent wisdom. As an insecure grad student I didn’t want to
be Coyote at this stage in my career. I dreamed of being White Eagle:
mature, wise, proud, mighty and unassailable, sailing safely above you and
the messiness, complexity and wonder of life, raining truths down to teach
you, with neither of us being learners, not much. Happily I failed at that, it
never worked for the things I considered worth learning, including myself.
I am Coyote the Trickster down here with you and immersed in our own
messy, complex, and mysterious world. And as such I honor you, myself
and together what we search to learn more about.
And you know, I’d give it to them and I’d tell them, like I do my students (I give this to my
undergraduate students) and I say, “I’m going to play Coyote with you now.” And they’d
relax, they wouldn’t feel the confrontation. And I’d use myself and Jack Thomas, we’d use
ourselves [as] examples. We would laugh about it; they’d laugh at me and with me. And all
of the sudden you’d feel them, they’d get had. They’d go, “Oh my god! That’s what I’m
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
45
�doing! Oh, that is really dumb; I have to consider changing!” And that’s huge, to get people
to do that five or six times in a week. But it was going on with people all around them. I
mean people really had “falling off the horse” experiences on the way to Damascus. But
they couldn’t do that unless they had gone through the pain and frustration and be ready to
change. And they weren’t ready to change fresh out of college. They just didn’t have the life
experiences.
BM:
Right.
JK:
And so that was the most powerful educator experience I ever had.
BM:
But you know that comes when you talk about being at the right time to change and having
that experience, but also of being of the mentality to be open to change. Like being open to
learning and realizing that each one of those is a learning experience, and you know, “What
did I learn? Or I’m going to go and repeat this again and again until I finally learn.”
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
You know, so it’s recognizing it and also having found that those years on your feet that you
recognize the experience contributing.
JK:
Yeah and we’d use all sorts of metaphors and examples. For example, we said, “Look, in
America today you all expected to learn about being an effective bureaucrat with soul and
spirit, and a long term resilience on the job. You’re as poorly trained in that as you were in
sex. We don’t formally train you in sex in our country it’s on the job experience. And often
it’s pretty tragic and high risk, but especially if you don’t have the right attitudes to be an
effective on-the-job learner; whether it’s sex or in the bureaucracy.” Most of them don’t
realize that that’s their job. When you go to a foreign country – Kathy and I have spent a lot
of time in foreign countries or as a Peace Corps worker – you’re going to have to do most of
your learning there. But it’s absolutely essential that when you go there that you have
functional attitudes and strategies to be an effective on-the-job trainer. We give them neither
of that here, other than the ENBS programs, some of them. We just give them science and
throw them out in the bureaucracy, usually with the attitude that politics is bad.
Many of our students have the same attitudes toward politics my grandmother had about
sex, you know, it was very Victorian: you only did it as means to an end, you weren’t
supposed to enjoy the process, take a shower afterward, you never talked about it, you didn’t
study about it. And so they would only engage in politics if they felt dragged into it; many
of them would feel dirty afterwards. I mean the attitudes we have about politics and
politicians are the attitudes we had about “dumb blondes” and “niggers” when I was young.
It is biased and bigoted and it’s poisonous to our culture. And we can joke about lawyers
and politicians now, with the same impunity that you used to be able to joke about “dumb
Pollack’s” or “Irishmen” or “dumb blondes” or “black men from the south” or something.
You can’t joke about those things anymore, praise god. And so we have a terrible,
dysfunctional, black hole in the way we disempower our young people in the education we
give them.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
46
�And not only that, our professors (but our professors don’t know it), they’re like, in many
cases, a bunch of celibate Catholic bishops who are talking to people about sex, you know.
They just don’t get it; I mean they have never had the on-job experience. That’s why they
are often in universities. And look how bitter and how easily some of our professional
colleagues burn out because the bureaucracy doesn’t work in their Cinderella, Robin Hood
mythology that’s totally unrealistic and unfounded. They hold to that because they don’t
have anything else rational. And they don’t consider that a rational part of their thinking in
life. They respond to that emotionally and glandularly: where they use their intellect in a lot
of parts of their personal and professional roles (say with professional colleagues here), but
they haven’t been aware that there is science out there in this and they shouldn’t figure it
out. I mean we were treated the same way when we were trained to be educators as
professors. We had no formal training in that, that’s on-the-job the same way we had our sex
training. We had some good role models and some bad role models, and we bumble around
and try. We don’t monitor it and measure it; we don’t try different learning practices that
much. And it’s not an area where we apply our science. I mean the studies that I did on how
and why entry-level professionals were succeeding and failing in the Forest Service, you
know part of their failure was the poor, dysfunctional way they were educated and role
modeled. So we have to take credit for that.
BM:
So today, if you were working with the Forest Service and you had that job back again, what
kinds of training would you recommend?
JK:
Well to continue what we’re doing. The problem is in all this wanting to get together there
was real suspicion about different professional groups going off by themselves, they thought
they were becoming clannish and not part of the mainstream and identifying too much with
a particular specialty.
BM:
So what are the different professions? Biology [inaudible]
JK:
Engineers, foresters, yeah, and watershed, soils people. And so they pretty much – plus
that’s expensive: it’s a full week. It’s hands-on; it’s expensive. And many of the training
programs have been gutted and reduced and thrown into big groups where they have a lot of
motivational people come in, at one extreme, and a lot of agency line officers come in at the
other end of the extreme, and talk to them about policy and stuff which is pretty boring. And
in terms of life skills and survival skills and really getting in touch with their humanity as
well. I mean that was part of it too. We focused a lot on that. And really you have to love
yourself to be able to love and care about others. You have to take care of yourself if you are
going to have anything left over to care for the land and care for some of your colleagues.
And be a person in the agency that is a healer, rather than a slasher or a “salt on the
wounds,” or someone who just ignores people and walks on the other side of the road to
Damascus when you see someone in a ditch. Because you’ve got your head up in the air, in
theory, or you’re doing important things. So someone is having marital problems or is
obviously having alcohol addiction problems in the way they’re showing up or not showing
up. And just deal with that because that’s good work for groups of people and human
beings. So you can’t separate that from being a good biologist or an engineer. You can, but I
don’t think it’s functional or healthy or sustainable.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
47
�BM:
So when you talk about the difference in training here at Utah State with the College of
Natural Resources, we’re separated into Wildland Resources and Watershed, and then we
have Environment and Society.
JK:
Yeah. And the whole core educational program that I worked so hard to pull off, where we
were in the vanguard of the world (not just North America), by having core courses and
bringing all of our young people together in initial courses and talk to them about the dark
side of their professional: myopia and pride and arrogance. And we’ve balkanized, you
know. We were Yugoslavia, like Yugoslavia was from the ‘70s through the mid-90s, and
now we’ve balkanized just like Yugoslavia. And we have the Serbs and the Croats and the
Bosnians, you know. We have the same thing with the hard sciences and the soft sciences.
When I really want to confront my colleagues (and I can get away with it as an economist
and as male), I talk to them about the erect sciences and the flaccid sciences.
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
Some of them just squirm. But I’m playing Coyote with them; because it’s often at that level
and that level of intellectual foundation. It’s at the glandular level: hard science, soft
science, social science, true science. Calculus versus college algebra; how you’re not worthy
unless you go through that. It’s more sinister than substance in that. But it’s very powerful
and it’s a deep undercurrent.
BM:
Let’s bring it a little bit closer to home then, to Logan Canyon in terms of as someone who
is living here and working here, some of the policies that you saw impacting the canyon and
some of the activities that were going on here. You also mentioned that you recreated with
your family up there. So could we talk a little bit also about some of those special places,
and maybe how policy sort of changed those?
JK:
Sure. Well the biggest policy battles I’ve been involved with Logan Canyon from the early
‘70s has been always the highway; UDOT eventually wanting to put four lanes of concrete
up through that place. I think. Maybe, maybe we’ve slowed them down enough – you know
that’s one of the last canyons that doesn’t have major highways slashed through it.
Most of the other stuff is that with all the times I’ve been on sabbaticals, with all the
traveling we’ve done in the summer, I haven’t staked a claim on a watershed or an area
where I’ve become a defender of it. I love skiing on Green Canyon and I really respected
them closing that off. There used to be four wheel drives and snowmobiles up there all the
time. And making it an urban, short day use recreational area for families and everything.
To be able to work a fulfilling day and be in cross-country skis twelve minutes after you
close the door in your office, and ski to the darkness of the evening and turn around and still
see the red glow as you come down; gravity brings you down that canyon. We used to go up
there and ski at night a lot; just a wonderful gift for me.
Most of the areas that I really used are just that beautiful basin below Third Dam, off to the
south. We’d go up towards that glacial circ up there, that beautiful area. I mean that is such
a beautiful area! And it’s just so quick and easy to get to. You know, we’d go up to Tony
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
48
�Grove and we’d hike up there and things like that. When I was director of summer camp and
staying there at nights, I would run at night up through those old logging roads and dirt
roads up behind camp. It was just gorgeous country. Again, I think the land up there is
healed up more and it looks better (and probably functioning better) than it did years ago –
ten, 20, 30, 50 years ago.
BM:
And what would you attribute that to?
JK:
Just less timber harvesting, more controlled wood scrounging, and especially grazing: better
grazing management. And really the market system has really cut down on the motivation to
graze sheep up there, you just couldn’t make money. Plus the labor costs and scarcity of
labor for the shepherds, took care of a lot of battles with the sheep, in a very quiet way that
is much more acceptable than political battles in our culture (for better or worse).
Listen, why don’t you shut this down a bit.
[Stop and start recording.]
Well and the context – so much of my responses to your questions on policy and
involvement in the Forest Service is ironic, but I’ve had probably the least impact on Region
4 (this region) that I’ve spent almost 40 years in, than the rest of the agency. I’ve spent
much more time and have been much more accepted and welcomed into the Region 6
[Pacific Northwest Region] culture; I think they’re more liberal and they’re more mobile.
Region 4 is pretty homestead, you know. Folks usually stay within the region and don’t
leave. I don’t know. You only have so many places to punch your dance card. My phone
would be ringing and I’d be saying, “Yes” to go to Milwaukee and to go to Portland and go
to Juneau, and be driving in the snow past Ogden – coming or going – to catch a plane. I’d
be thinking, “What are you doing? Are you nuts Kennedy?” As a result, that filled a lot of
my needs to do that. And on the weekends often we would go some place, especially after
the kids grew up. I didn’t spend that much time involved in Logan Canyon.
And with some people, like the high Uintas we used to hike in when the kids were young, to
manage my guilt I would just support the high Uintas preservation group with Carter and
some of those folks – to be a spokesperson for me.
BM:
So that was one of the groups you were involved with?
JK:
Well, yeah initially, when he left the Wilderness Society and started that group.
BM:
And who is this person?
JK:
Dick Carter. [See Folk Collection 37: Box 3 & 4]
BM:
Dick Carter, okay.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
49
�JK:
Yeah. And he was one of my early students so I had a lot of respect for him. He was always
an activist, it was in his blood. Some students you just see in the audience and you know
that they’re going to be involved up to their elbows in that stuff.
I’ve been involved in surveys and I was involved in public meetings and things on their
planning, at the request of the district rangers (who I tended to know, but I haven’t known
the last two or three). So that’s kind of sad in a way, in my own backyard I’m the least
involved and probably the least known.
BM:
But it’s interesting in the perspective of the fact that it’s not that they’re behind the times
here, it’s that the culture is different and they are – how would you say it? They look at it
through a different lens?
JK:
They’re more entrenched, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. But I mean, really they
haven’t had the pressures that Oregon and Washington had in so many ways. And the values
were less environmentally oriented, so the populace hasn’t had a ground swell as they had in
those areas. Now that’s changing, happily. Of course Oregon has so many more people and
so much more money, and they needed so many more biologists because they had so much
mitigation work to do with all the activity they were doing up in the hills, for better or worse
(and often for worse). I spent an awful lot of time in Region 6, was well known in Region 6.
And loved going there because it was a different environment, and a different place; and you
go to a different city, like Portland. And sometimes Kathy would go with me. I spent a lot of
time there.
BM:
So what was it like to come back here then and watch what was going on here, knowing
what you saw in other places, as well as the kind of work that you were doing?
JK:
Well, I didn’t have the time and energy to mope about it too much. I tend to have faith that
things change, and I’m patient. [Laughing] I’ve learned patience. And yet I knew some
people and I respected them, and they respected me, but they wouldn’t ask me to be
involved as much because I usually would stir up action and excitement. That’s bothersome
to some people. Again, I don’t want to sound arrogant about them. Just by fate there were a
couple of regional foresters that we had a great personal and professional relationship with.
None of them have ever been in this region. Regional foresters trust you as an outsider;
they’re always calling you to do things. And it’s the same way with the chiefs, you know.
All the really sensitive national studies where we looked at the soul of the Forest Service, I
was in charge of. And they never edited me. I mean they just gave me a scalpel and rib
separators and said, “Here, we’ll support you. We want you to sample 15-20% of our people
and you just crank open their rib cage man, and you poke around in their heart.” They
trusted me to do that, and they never were betrayed.
BM:
And you did that through interview and surveys?
JK:
Yeah. I was the one that challenged them to look at their values and reward system. The
biggest heartburn and conflict at all state, especially the entry-levels of career, is when
people’s values are not consistent with the values that Forest Service rewards. And it’s the
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
50
�same with the university. I’m not saying it’s not consistent with the values they mouth, the
values and their vision statement. What they say at the university or the Forest Service is
rewarded, is often much more consistent with what the values young people entering into
the profession hold dear and want to be rewarded. The real hypocrisy and the corrosive
effect on the agency culture, spirit and respect is when the agency says they reward values
that professionals endorse, and then they don’t. They reward other things. And the
university is the same hypocrisy, you see.
BM:
Oh, and I bet it’s true in other industries.
JK:
Oh yeah, but I think that’s true with most organizations. And it’s true with many families
too. “Oh we really care about our children. I really care about my spouse.” But put a
pedometer on their ankles or on their brain and their heart and see where their heart and
mind and ass spends most of their time. You’ll see that what you see and what you do is
often very, very different and hypocritical and dysfunctional in the long term; especially
when you don’t recognize or admit it.
And so the last study I did for the last kind of Vatican gathering of the council of the Forest
Service is – here I’ll show you. I just have to go over here and pull one off. I may even have
an extra.
Part of my not spending that much time in Logan Canyon, [was] of course [because], for the
last 15 years we’ve had a ranch in southern Utah, and every time I want to get in touch with
land I run there. I’m not the best person for the last 20-30 years about having an intimacy
with Logan Canyon. Most of the joy and thrill and contact I have with that National Forest
is just basking in its beauty visually and spiritually in the morning and the evening. And
waking up to it or looking out my window or facing a class and walking over to BNR314
and looking at the sun coming up over the mountain after the students thunder out, or the
sun setting on it and the snow turning pink. Thinking how blessed I am to live in this valley.
So it’s the ambiance, the indirect relationship I have with that. And I’ve hiked up on Mount
Logan – I just look up at it and remember that I’ve been there and know what it looks like
up there – and can still feel a joy walking over to my 3:30 class Wednesday, my Econ class
that’s two hours over in the Business Building. When I go have coffee I always sit at the bar
and face out the window. Even if I’m reading the paper, I’m looking over the top of the
paper all the time at that mountain. So you know I do cherish it. That’s one of the reasons
I’m here and came here. I haven’t had a hands-on relationship with it for quite a while.
BM:
But there’s also that being able to enjoy it from a distance, and those memories that are a
part of it. As well as you know, you think of how does that help regenerate you and just recharge you for the kinds of things that you need to go and do.
JK:
Oh, it’s a very spiritual relationship. Just as some people walk past a stain-glass window or
something, it has all those qualities.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
51
�BM:
You wonder if, you know, when you talk about just that simple act of being able to enjoy
the canyon from here, and you wonder how many people actually do that. Especially the
students – when you think of this incredible setting we’re in and it hits you in the face all the
time.
JK:
Yeah, yeah.
BM:
And in the changing light of day, you know, highlights the different parts of that
mountainside to the east. You know, how many people really think about that?
JK:
Yeah. Oh in the last two weeks it’s been some of the greenest I’ve ever seen it since 1970. It
looks like Ireland; it’s gorgeous! Maybe 10% of the last 30 years the soil has been that
saturated with moisture; it is amazing. Plus with the cool spring, we’ve put off the growth
spurt until the day length really is long. And man, those plants are like race horses: been
delayed in the starting gate for 15 minutes – they can’t wait to get out. And you can just see
them grow; you can just hear it almost.
BM:
The green up is amazing; it just really catches your eye. Ah! Let’s stop for a second.
[Stop and start recording.]
Okay, we’re back.
JK:
Now all the research that I did was never funded by the research money – not a dime. It was
always out of operating. It was line officers that had problems, had questions; had issues.
And they really wanted me to come in. That’s why I could never have many graduate
students – they wanted me to come in and be a consultant. And they wanted the answers
next week. I mean I’d say, “Over the summer I can find a good grad student, and we’ll study
it for two years, we’ll have a publication.” “No way.” That was not their time dimension.
They were in a hurry and they had real issues. Now it was sad that I’d hire people that were
on campus for six months, or six weeks, to do something and that was grand. But I never
developed a cadre of PhD students and things like that because I could never get long-term
funding. And these folks kept me so busy doing things I thought were important and were
immensely rewarding.
The nice thing about that though is you never lamented them not using your results. In fact
they over-used them sometimes. They would, you know. I would say, “Wait a minute! This
is only two regions, this isn’t a national study.” “No, no, no; let’s put it in place, we’ll start a
program!” You know, and you’re around these people that are actionary people – they were
so much different than researchers. And their time dimensions, their sense of urgency and
often their personal bonding – I mean they didn’t want to lose another woman wildlife
biologist. It was too hard to recruit them, and the last one that left broke their heart because
she had a lot of potential. And they saw it as a real failure and an accident that they would
like to avoid. So that was pretty heady and rewarding.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
52
�I did respect the Forest Service social scientists. Hendee, Stankey
and Lucas were some of
the best social scientists on the planet in the area of natural resources.
BM:
Could you – you’ve got the first name?
JK:
Hendee, Stankey and Lucas – they were the last names. You’d all know them? [John
Hendee, George Stankey & Robert Lucas. ]
BM:
George Stankey?
JK:
Yeah. They all came up with the first studies of wilderness areas and boundary waters canoe
areas; and the landscape architects in the Forest Service coming up with all the visual
management stuff. People in Europe, that’s what they wanted to get from us. I mean they
thought they knew all they needed to know about silviculture (and chances are they did), or
game management in Germany or New Zealand. In the early 1900s if there were floppy
disks, Germany and France could’ve given us floppy disks on how to manage our forests,
how to create a National Forest Service, and how to educate our forestry students. We
essentially just took that and put it right into our (metaphorically) computers in 1900, and
just followed them like a blueprint. But what we gave back to that area of the world and the
rest of the world when we started being innovative was NEPA, really.
From the ‘60s and ‘70s on, we were ahead of all the rest of the natural resource agencies in
the western world and planet. Because the previous ones – this whole machine model of
conservation: sustaining the flow of (primarily) commodities – was designed for an
industrial state with a large part of the population still being rural. They were able to have
that kind of blood and blister relationship with producing commodities. But in a restrained
way (and that’s what sustained was – it was a bridle on us race horses or plow horses out
there) to manage the land in a way that wouldn’t destroy the long-term productivity. That’s
the way the laws and the philosophy always was; but as we became an urban, post-industrial
society (and I’ve written extensively on that) there was a different relationship with the land.
It was urban and it was much more romantic and idealistic; much less blood and blister. And
I have nothing against romanticism – I’m a romantic and I’m going to die one. I’m even
romantic about death.
The Danish Forest Service, they were still stuck in a rural, industrial model of society’s
relationship with their natural resources. And society just was not there. And we thought it
was society’s problem. Look at all the effort Weyerhaeuser invested to try to get the public
to love clear cuts, you know. No way. And maybe we can get people to love root canals. I
mean they just don’t like it, you know. And it looks bloody ugly; and don’t tell me it’s going
to look good in 50 years! I’m already 50 and I’m not going to be here! And that’s not
renewable as far as I’m concerned, buster.
And in many ways it’s always been the case that the public are libertarians and foresters and
wildlife/fisheries biologists, we’ve always been communists. We look at the stand, and the
population, and the long-term. And that’s a very impersonal, abstract relationship where
people don’t cut that tree or those trees along that stream in a very libertarian way. And we
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
53
�respond like communists, “You’ve got to think in the long term, lady. Don’t get emotional.
You know this has a purpose; we’re going to plant it back. It’s all going to be back and
you’ve got to focus on the masses, not the individual. And don’t be bleeding heart about it;
you’ve got to be a bit abstract.”
That’s the argument I used to have with my classmates at Penn State in the ‘60s and ‘70s.
And so there’s a built in conflict between the public and natural resource managers. We are,
by our nature and by what society really expects of us, dealing with the long-term
productivity and sustainability of systems to look at it in a larger, more abstract way. Some
people think it’s impersonal, where we love the system. You know, Stalin would probably
say he loved the masses of Russians, as he was killing about 5% of the population every
decade. It just didn’t fit into his image. It had to be done to cull the stand, to get rid of the
weed trees. You know, to manage it for long-term, abstract goals – which sustained yield is,
or sustainability is a pretty abstraction too. And it’s a much more organic model.
[Stop recording.]
[Tape 4 of 4: A]
Susan needs to pick up from here and finish the transcript with the last tape I have sent over.
Thanks, Barbara
Randy Williams: I do not have the fourth tape. Sent email to Barb on 1/7/2011 and again on
7/12/2011 about it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Jim
Kennedy
Page
54
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/325</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-01-17
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jim Kennedy interview, 4-5 May 2009, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor at Utah State University), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. The transcript for tape 4 is not included as of 10/10/12
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940-
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Middleton, Barbara
Subject
The topic of the resource
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Interviews
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Childhood and youth
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Family
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Career in Forestry Education
Trapping--Pennsylvania--Montgomery--Anecdotes
Farm life--Pennsylvania--Montgomery
Dairy farming--Pennsylvania--Anecdotes
Delta Upsilon Fraternity
Utah State University. College of Natural Resources--Faculty--Interviews
Forestry teachers--Biography
College teaching--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes
Mentoring in education
Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes
Box, Thadis W.
Ecology--Study and teaching
United States. Forest Service
United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees--Training of
Career education
Occupational training
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Religion
Natural resources--Law and legislation--Utah
Multiculturalism
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (Association)
Recreation--Utah--Green Canyon (North Logan)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Cache Valley (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Bear Lake County (Idaho)
Rich County (Utah)
Philadelphia (Pensylvania)
Pennsylvania
Mink Creek (Idaho)
Emigration Canyon (Idaho)
Mount Logan (Utah)
Green Canyon (North Logan, Utah)
Idaho
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 6
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx3fd6JimKennedy
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
4-5 May 2009
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2009-05-04
2009-05-05
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/841748ab536f2b760a609a413008de8d.jpg
a87f829afe70336b81db972caf2ddb38
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Image Height
5099
Image Width
Image Width in pixels
4790
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Checksum
8cac4480c0a4bbf55d40a8b67e2a20f0
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
2554636
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order a print or digital file of this item, please see Northern Arizona University. Cline Library's Reproduction Order Form at: <a>http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ordering/#ordering</a>
Local URL
The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website
<a href="http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/8612">http://cdm16748.contentdm.oclc.org:80/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/8612</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jimmie' LaVerne Thayer at Marble Canyon bug station. [Inspection station] Circa 1930 [Sign reads: Stop. State Quarantine Officers].
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Unknown
Subject
The topic of the resource
Automobiles--Inspection--Arizona; Agricultural pests--Control--Buildings; Wooden-frame buildings; Signs and signboards; Automobiles; Thayer, James LaVerne
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black-and-white Photograph
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1930
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Marble Canyon (Ariz.);United States Highway 89;
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939; 20th century
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
http://www.azarchivesonline.org/xtf/view?docId=ead/nau/reilly_plez_talmadge.xml
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Northern Arizona University. Cline Library.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Digital surrogates are the property of the repository. Reproduction requires permission, please contact special.collections@nau.edu.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Woodruff, Mamie Lowrey (P.T. Reilly Collection)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NAU_9804.jpg
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/0057aec5e49ff98be54dc955f758ee12.mp3
475bd1becfcac6cbe06837883a6c651a
https://highway89.org/files/original/2ff5831c9365bee55920e58d6c6717b0.pdf
03f6ac5e6ec24f8075f3f1f3008b96e4
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
John K. Hansen
Place of Interview: Garden City, UT
Date of Interview: 12 March 2009
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Radio Shack Tape Recorder, CTR-122
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Randy Williams, 6 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012
Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah on his
families’ cow and sheep operation, including yearly cycle of ranching: haying, feeding cattle and
sheep, moving animals, protecting lambs from predators; his earliest memories of Logan
Canyon; three years in the South Pacific during World War II; 18 years in highway construction
with WW Clyde and Company in Springville, Utah; returning to Garden City to take over family
sheep ranch.
Reference:
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JH = John Hansen (Interviewee)
NH = Noreen Hansen (Interviewee’s wife)
BH = Bonnie Hansen (Interviewee’s daughter)
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 3: A]
BM:
I’m going to watch the tape every now and then.
This is Barbara Middleton and we are here in Garden City. And this is tape 1, side A.
And we are here in the home of John --
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
1
�JH:
BM:
John K. Hansen.
John K. Hansen. And we are just getting started on the first interview with John. So I am
going to have him start off with talking about when and where he was born and a little bit
of his background. John.
JH:
Okay. I was born right here in Garden City, about a mile west of Garden City in my
grandfather’s home. The old home still stands there. That was August the 16th, 1924. As I
say, that home still stands there. As you go up the highway toward Logan from the last of
the service stations, as you begin to climb the hill it’s on your left down off the grade.
You can still see that white home down there, it’s still there.
BM:
So this is Highway 89?
JH:
Yeah, uh-huh.
BM:
Up the canyon, okay.
JH:
Yeah. And I still have a cousin and his wife living there. My grandparents moved out and
moved over to Logan at the outbreak of World War II. And they owned a sheep ranch
there. They had three sons that worked on that ranch and they all had different things to
do. After I grew up enough to be of much help to them I used to help with the haying and
with one thing or another. Most of my life was spent right here where we’re sitting except
for I spent nearly three years in the South Pacific during World War II. That was from
one end of the Pacific to the other, with a few stops in between. Then I spent 18 years in
highway construction with WW Clyde and Company over down in Springville, Utah.
Then I came back here when my brother had passed away; my dad had been gone for
several years and had this ranch here. When my brother passed away he was running the
ranch for mother. So I had to come back and I had to quit construction and come back
here to help her out. And I’ve been here ever since. I don’t know whether it was a good
thing or a bad thing!
[Laughing]
JH:
Today, with the way things are why there just isn’t much in farming and ranching. There
isn’t anything here in Garden City anymore. There is so much development; there isn’t
what you could call a stable farm or ranch here that would be in full production, like there
used to be.
BM:
So let’s talk a little bit about that, in terms of you started out with sheep ranching and
haying and of course have seen a lot of change. Would you go back and talk a little bit
about the early years of that sheep ranching and what the haying was like?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And how old were you at that time?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
2
�JH:
Well, when I got old enough to be much help in the hay fields – the hay at that time was
all put by a horse plow, with horse drawn mow machines and hay rakes and everything
else. They just started using overshot stackers. Well, that was quite a job to work on the
pull-up with a team of horses.
BM:
That’s where the horses --?
JH:
Yeah, the horses pulled it up on what they call an “overshot stacker” and I had the job of
driving the team to put the hay on the stack.
BM:
So it was a team of two horses that pulled out?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. A regular team.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And then I had the job also of raking up the scatters which was a job for me because you
didn’t trip the hay rig with your foot like you did later on, you did that with a lever. And
sometimes in heavy hay that lever would just about yank you right off of the hay rig.
[Laughing]
JH:
And I wasn’t very big anyhow, so [laughing]. But that was my job to start out with.
BM:
You know, I have seen that. And that’s a pretty quick operation.
JH:
It is.
BM:
You had to be fast.
JH:
You have to know what you’re doing and if you’re on that pull-up on the stacker that
reaches the top, you can tip the stacker right over on top of that hay stacker over on top of
them stacking hay, if you’re not careful. But they usually had it chained down with stakes
driven in the ground to keep that from happening. But you had to hit that hard enough, let
your team to hit that hard enough up at the very top so that hay would shoot off, and then
you would back your team up just a little bit and let that momentum carry the stacker
head back.
BM:
And how high did you build these hay stacks?
JH:
They were up about, some of them 18-20 feet.
BM:
So this hay was stored out in these big piles, and just left open to the rain and such?
JH:
No, no. We stacked all of our hay right here – we had a big field out here in the south of
town where we had our wild meadow hay. And all the hay that was in here we stacked
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
3
�right here behind the barn. Generally we would have about four stacks of hay – real good,
big stacks of hay when we’re done. And then it would be fenced in. Out in the meadow
we did the same thing. We had stockyards built out there, because if you didn’t you
always fed your livestock out where the hay was, so you had to fence those yards in or
you wouldn’t have any hay left!
BM:
[Laughing] So you had these stacks at two different places?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Out here, when are you going out and feeding your animals? Is it once a day?
JH:
Ordinarily we always fed our cattle and sheep twice a day, both of them.
BM:
And how do you get out there?
JH:
In the wintertime with a hay rack and a team and sleighs, and you went out and opened
the gate and drove in beside your haystack and pitched a load on and hauled it out in the
field and strung it off to the animals. Whatever you were feeding: sheep or cattle; you
never fed the two of them together.
BM:
Hmm. And why not? Why won’t you feed them both together?
JH:
Because the cattle chase the sheep off.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
They would eat – they were just too rough on the sheep. And by the time in the
wintertime, why your ewes would be getting heavy with lamb, and it was just too
dangerous. So you fed them separate.
BM:
Um-hmm. So you have them in pastures, fenced in different pastures –
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah.
BM:
And you have to get the sleighs into both of these pastures –
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
To come and feed them. Were the animals waiting for you?
JH:
You bet, standing there at the gate [laughing]. And one thing that I haven’t saw in this
valley for years – all while I was growing up as you remember – well our winters, we had
snow over here that you couldn’t see the fences.
BM:
Oh, wow!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
4
�JH:
You couldn’t see the fences. A lot of times we would just drive our teams and sleighs
right over the fences and go right out to the stockyard. And I don’t know why, but the
stock just stayed there – you would have thought they would have followed the sleigh
roads back.
BM:
Right.
JH:
But they didn’t. They stayed pretty – that’s why we fed them twice a day (that’s one
reason why). The other reason why, my dad always had a lot of consideration for his
animals and it fell off on me too. You know, in bitter cold weather an animal needs to
have some feed for it in the mornings – just like you want to have suppertime –
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay, so did they. And they did better and it didn’t take as much hay either. You would
think so, but it didn’t. It didn’t take all that much hay extra. In the springtime then, your
animals are ready to go out on the range when it comes time to go and if feed was a little
short (which it generally was), why then they could get by a whole lot better until the
feed began to come up better so they could get a mouthful, you know?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
We always came in with a top weight on our lambs and our calves. And your animals do
so much better and they didn’t resent you and you could work them a whole lot better,
which just made the work so much easier for the persons that are working them. In the
past I have worked for other cattlemen where they fed their cows whether they need it or
not. Come calving time you had a mighty tough time with the calving process. The poor
old cows had an awful time. And you would pull more calves than you could shake a
stick at.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
And the same way with the sheep. In other words, a weak animal is nothing to have. So
we always got by that way and did just fine. And that’s what we did when I took this
place over, come back to it. We didn’t have the sheep – my dad sold the sheep when the
War came on.
BM:
Um-hmm. Now before you go into that – you just went through almost a whole year of
your cattle-sheep cycle. Let’s break that down a little bit, because there are some
interesting things there. To me, as far as having them contained and then you’re getting
them out onto what I assume was the Cache National Forest?
JH:
Well, we could always go on the forest on the first day of July. And then on the tenth day
of September, your time was up and you came off the forest. And then you had to have a
spring and fall range to go with that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
5
�BM:
Now, did the cattle go one place and the sheep go another?
JH:
Yeah. Well, pretty much so, pretty much so. In the earlier years, back in the Depression
years when things were really tough, why they had the sheep and the cattle pretty much
together. They just put them out – with the sheep, they were herded. If you didn’t, you
would wreck that grazing land (wherever it was – on the forest or your own), you would
wreck that grazing land right quick.
BM:
Um-hmm. And is that because of them eating down close to the ground?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm, yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
So that’s one thing I would like to stress if it’s your dealing you say with people who hear
about these things and without a doubt you too yourself have heard about the old sheep
and cattle wars where the cattlemen wanted to run all of the sheep out of the country, and
vice versa. And they couldn’t get along. Well my dad never did put his herd out in the
morning in the same place they grazed yesterday.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And he would go back over that and he would evaluate what those sheep took yesterday
because different feed, and the sheep will get on a barren hillside with nothing but white
gravel on that thing, and feed for hours at a time! And you’d wonder, “What in the world
are they eating rocks for?” So you ride your horse over there and sit there and watch for
an hour what they’re doing. And then you’re going to get off the horse and walk over
there and move that sheep out of the road – our sheep are just about as gentle as they
could be – and here is a rock about that big around that was sticking up and all around it
was gray moss. That’s what they were eating! A cow would never eat that, so the sheep
man he always got blamed for dropping out the forest. And some of them did, don’t get
me wrong. Because there were some men who overgrazed in other words, and that’s one
thing I never saw my dad do or my grandfather.
BM:
Um-hmm. So your grandfather and your dad both started that business and you were the
third then, in your family that continued that? Third generation?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. I didn’t do sheep. Like I say, when World War II came along, Dad sold
the sheep because he figured my older brother would be going into the service right
quick. I was a junior in high school, at that particular time, and he didn’t figure that he
could get along with me, with the sheep. And him trying to be down here and get the
irrigating done and everything else that goes with a ranch, you know.
BM:
So then he became just a cattleman?
JH:
So he took the money and went and bought cows instead.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
6
�BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And he bought himself one heck of a job! [Laughing] Because the cattle that he bought
were wild, dirty stinkers!
BM:
Really?
JH:
Yes, they were! I’ll tell you what!
BM:
Where did you go to buy cattle at this time? I mean are you talking about buying cattle in
the valley?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So there are other people that are selling off their herd?
JH:
Yeah, well the cattle he bought was right down there in the same town –
BM:
Ovid. Okay, Ovid, Idaho.
JH:
And the man he bought those cows from – his last name was Olsen. They were the
wildest bunch of miserable animals you’ve ever seen!
BM:
So how did you get them here? How did you bring them from Ovid?
JH:
They trucked them up here.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
Yeah, they trucked them.
NH:
And the kids down there were the same!
[Laughing]
BM:
So when you got the cattle on the land here, how were they wild?
JH:
Oh, you just have to be around a sheep outfit, but never had any cattle. You’ve got sheep
curls about that high, and they was nothing to a cow! They would just go through her like
a Sherman tank!
[Laughing]
JH:
Down here on this lake shore below us, clear along here for oh, half a mile – just a solid
line of sheep sheds where they lambed all the sheeps. Now my dad’s brother had a herd,
and they ran them together – so that’s where they would lamb them out down here in the
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
7
�early spring. They would start lambing right around the 15th of April and that’s where
they would do it.
BM:
Was there a certain weather condition that they needed?
JH:
The warmer, the better; the warmer the better. And, the drier the better.
BM:
Is it warm here at that time of year.
JH:
It was pretty warm.
NH:
It was!
[Laughing]
BM:
What’s the temperature April 15th? What do you remember?
JH:
Back then? It was kicking right around 40 degrees.
BM:
And snow? Did you have snow?
JH:
Yeah, there would still be a little snow, not much snow. There would still be a lot of ice
on the lake.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
That was one of my jobs when we had the sheep. I’d come home from school and hook
up a team of horses and go around – this is all slough down here clear over to my uncle’s
place. I had to go around to his gate and back around with my team and hook them on to
a sled. We had four open top, 50 gallon barrels on there and there is a good spring right
below the sheds. I’d go down there with a bucket – 5 gallon bucket – and fill those
barrels full. And I’d come up and go through those sheep sheds and water the sheep at
night.
BM:
Oh! So they were in and they were waiting for you to shear them?
JH:
Well, they generally didn’t shear those sheep until, oh around the 10th of June – it was
just too cold.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
My dad and his brothers – spring and fall range was over on this side – you’ve seen
where that little segment of “R” on top of the hill?
BM:
Um-hmm.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
8
�JH:
Well, their spring and fall ranges were immediately below that.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
There were about four sections of land in there that the two of them had together and they
ran on, that they homesteaded. So that’s where they take them over after they got through
lambing out, why they would put the two herds together and then they would trail them
over. It would take them about three days to get them over there with all them young
lambs in the bunch.
BM:
And what are they trailing them through? What’s the landscape like? Is it dry at that
time?
JH:
Yeah. It’s pretty dry. You would be getting spring rain storms, you know, off and on
quite a bit. Most generally it was pretty nice weather.
BM:
Okay. And then, is that where you sheared them then?
JH:
Yeah, we sheared them over there.
BM:
Okay. So if your job was shearing, were you actually –
JH:
My job was right here with my mother. We had five or six milk cows.
BM:
Ahh.
JH:
And I had to go them night and morning and help her milk them milk cows.
NH:
[??]
[Laughing]
BM:
What time did you get up for that job?
JH:
Oh, we’d get up right around five o’clock on average. From the time I’d get those milk
cows milked and get them took out to pasture, why it was getting along towards eight
o’clock. And then when I come home at night, I had to go get them again and help her
milk them again!
[Laughing]
BM:
That’s a busy job. That’s another regular kind of thing you have to do every day.
JH:
Yeah. It’s an every day process – there’s just no getting away from it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
9
�BM:
So then when it was shearing time, in between the milking of the cows were you down
there helping them with the sheep shearing?
JH:
Nope, no. That was all done across the lake over there on the east mountains. I just had to
stay here and help her and help her plant the gardens and stuff like that.
BM:
Sure because the weather was planting time.
NH:
Did you help lamb the lambs, when they were down -- ?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
So tell us about that – so that’s right across the street here.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay, tell us about the lambing.
JH:
Oh, that was a terrible job! [Laughing] That was a clock around job. You always had a
night shift to go on. They would hire a couple of guys and most generally, why they were
my dad and my uncle’s nephews that just lived around the corner there and they was both
married. They’d come over and one of them would come to work just as it was beginning
to get dark at night. And they would always pull a sheep camp down there so they’d have
a place to stay in all the weather. And then the other one would come over and relieve
him right shortly after midnight. And he would go until like six o’clock in the morning –
most generally five or four o’clock my dad was down there. And they’d hire those guys
to help them out that way.
And there was a job of having to feed those sheep down there off the hay rack. Those big
corrals we had down there – we had to board up the side of the wagons clear to the
ground so the ewes and the lambs couldn’t get under and get run over. And I fell under
that job more times than not! [Laughing] That was first thing in the morning, but when I
come home from school – lo and behold them milk cows were still staring me in the face!
BM:
So when are lambs typically born? Are they often night, or?
JH:
Anytime, any day. You could always tell when the pressure dropped you would get a
bunch of lambs. If the pressure dropped, why you’d have lambs all over. That was
another little job I had to do. They had a sheep boat it was just on a pair of skids (like that
water skid I was telling you about), only they had a little box on that thing. I would go
out through the corrals and generally either dad or my cousin or my uncle would go along
with me and we would gather up the lambs and ewes and put them in that thing. We had a
lot of space where we could put the ewes and the lambs in a pen to theirselves. And then
you had to constantly shift them and make room for the next go around. It was quite a
deal. And then if you weren’t watching real close, you could get those lambs mixed up
and then boy, there was all heck to pay!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
10
�[Laughing]
BM:
A lamb can lose it’s mom?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Huh. How do they know their mother?
JH:
They have their own smell, their own scent. Each one has their own scent. And that’s
how the mothers can tell their own lambs apart.
BM:
So when the mother gets sheared two months after the lamb was born, the lamb still
knows mom because she still smells the same even though she might look a lot different.
JH:
Um-hmm, yep. Oh yeah! That don’t bother them lambs. They know where that bottle of
milk’s at! [Laughing]
BM:
Don’t lambs have twins?
JH:
Yes.
BM:
And triplets sometimes?
JH:
Twins and triplets and sometimes four lambs – I’ve seen them have four lambs. But I
hated to see triplets, I just hated to see triplets. Because mama most generally didn’t have
the milk for them.
BM:
Oh!
JH:
So you would have to go through the herd and find a mama that only had one lamb. And
then the trick was to get mama to take that lamb. And until you could get her milk going
through that lamb, she wouldn’t have nothing to do with them.
BM:
So how do you do that?
JH:
You just tip the ewe up on her hind end and you suckle that lamb until he filled up and
then you put them back in the pen together. And if she got mean with him, why you’d
have to put him in a little side pen next to her. And then you always let that little lamb get
just a little on the hungry side – there was tricks just like there is in all trades [laughing] –
you just had to be able to figure out, you know, what was going on and understand your
animals. So you would let him get good and hungry and then you would take her lamb
(because she had one lamb), you would take her lamb and put him over in that pen with
the bum lamb. Then when you come back to feed those lambs, then odd lamb (to her),
he’s hungry enough to hang up the bottle and so is her lamb hungry enough. So then you
had to get a hold of that ewe and make her behave herself, and put a lamb on each side.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
11
�And every time she tried to reach around her to bump that spare lamb, why you just
popped her on the nose and let her behave herself.
BM:
So how many like, triplets did you have in the season? That’s a lot of work!
JH:
That is a lot of work! Thank heaven there wasn’t too many of them! [Laughing]
[End Tape 1: A; Begin Tape 1: B]
BM:
Tape 1, side 2. And we’re continuing with the sheep and the bum lamb and getting it to
take to a different mother.
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah. Okay, so you made her behave herself and made her keep standing up so
both lambs (on each side) could suck. A mother will always turn around and stick her
nose right back under that lamb’s tail. That’s how she identifies that lamb, is by her milk
going through that lamb. So that’s why then once you can get her to behave herself and
get enough of her milk going through the bum lamb. And then if she don’t want to stick
her nose around there and recognize him, you bend it around her and make her do it. You
could save little lambs that way.
BM:
How do you bend a sheep around? I mean aren’t these sheep pretty big?
JH:
Yeah. The average of my dad’s sheep – they were big old Columbia ewes – and they
weighed around 150 pounds. And I’ll tell you what, you’ve got a job to do.
BM:
And how old were you at the time?
JH:
Oh, I guess I was about 14 when I would help them down there. Then I would go through
their corrals with them and help them that way when I could. In later years here I had a
little herd of my own here on the place. I would lamb them right here and sheared them
out right here. So I knew all about how to handle them.
BM:
Now one other thing, before you go on to that: you were mentioning that sometimes the
mother didn’t take to the – what did you call it? Bum lamb.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So there were times when you had to supplement and feed yourself.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Could you tell us a little bit about that?
JH:
Well, if you was worth a hoot, you could make her take that lamb.
BM:
So it was pretty successful?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
12
�JH:
Yeah, it worked fine, it worked real good. We made that ewe stay in that pen until she
took that lamb, until she let that lamb suck. And then we would put her out in the bigger
pen with a few more ewes and their lambs and watch her, until you knew that she had the
lamb, she recognized the lamb and she would feed the lamb. And she would keep track of
it. But it was all the other lambs that came along like that – whether it was triplets and
you didn’t have any place to put two of them – why you bottle fed them. We’d keep them
around, we’d bottle feed those little beggars all summer.
BM:
Is this cow milk your?
JH:
Just cow milk, yep. Just cow milk. [Laughing]
NH:
It wasn’t that much of a job! [Laughing]
JH:
The only problem I had, you would have a bum lamb and a bottle – those little beggars,
they liked to get a hold of that nipple on the end and they would just start chewing on that
and sucking on that, pretty soon they would back up and pop the nipple off. The milk
would go out! Then they’d run around in middle of the corral and spit the nipple out and
you would have to go find it and wash it off! It was a job, you know. It could try your
patience sometimes, but we always had some real good bum lambs to sell when the sheep
would come off the forest. Ordinarily my dad’s lambs weighed around, oh, around 90-95
pounds. Which is a real good lamb.
BM:
And how old would that lamb be?
JH:
That would be an April born lamb.
BM:
Okay. So when were the sheep and the lambs turned out on to the National Forest? When
did you turn them out for grazing?
JH:
That’s on the first day of July of the year.
BM:
Okay, so that’s July. So they are on the ground, they’re being born in April, so April,
May, June – they’re only like three months old.
JH:
Yep.
BM:
So how big is this lamb at this time? Is this like a loaf of bread? Is it -- ?
JH:
The newborn lamb?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Some of those little fellars would weigh, oh, I guess about six or eight pounds. I hated to
see that – I liked to see a smaller lamb more because it will get up and it will go. If
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
13
�they’re any heavier than that in the cold weather, the little beggars will lay right there and
freeze to death if you ain’t right there.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
And then they get lazy and they don’t want to follow mama. If you’re moving them, like
on a range, why they won’t get up and follow mama, when she leaves them – goes and
begins to feed why they lay right there and then that ewe will have to go clear back there
and get that confounded lamb. A lot of time she can’t find it because the little cuss won’t
answer her. If the herder don’t know where that’s happened – if you ain’t watching your
herd in other words – why, that can happen you lose a lot of lambs. If it doesn’t happen
that way then the coyote gets them or the cat.
BM:
So that would have been one of the predators that –
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
Mountain lions or coyotes.
JH:
Or coyotes, yup.
BM:
Were there pretty healthy populations of those?
JH:
Oh, there was a lot of coyotes! There was a lot of coyotes. A lot of times we’d have to get
up in the night and go run them off. Over on the east side of the lake when they first got
up there in the spring – take the old lanterns and hang lanterns all around the bedding
ground. You never let them sheep just sleep anywhere, you put them on the bed ground
so you could watch them.
BM:
Huh! And you put lanterns around the edge?
JH:
Um-hmm. Put lanterns all around your bed ground and that would help keep the coyotes
out of them. But a lot of times you had to go out there and run the dang things off.
BM:
So you’re on horseback running –
JH:
No. No, you’re on foot at night.
BM:
Oh.
JH:
You just go out there and when it’s dark you can’t see nothing anyhow – you just go out
there and run them off the best you can.
BM:
Um-hmm. Did you yell?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
14
�JH:
Yeah. You just had to holler and be careful how you done it because if you got to yelling,
why the next thing you know your whole herd got off the bed ground and gone out in the
sagebrush somewhere!
BM:
Holy smokes! So how many of you are doing this? How many of you are watching the
bedding grounds as well as running off – how many people are managing? One.
JH:
Um-hmm. Just the herder.
BM:
And that’s you?
JH:
Well, sometimes it was. After we got out of school in the middle of June, why there was
no school so I would go out and let my dad come home and do some things that he
needed to do. Over there, you know, there are some nasty looking rattlesnakes, and out in
the dark with them sheep. You could get pretty snaky! [Laughing]
BH:
So Dad, was that the common way most sheep herders did? Was just one sheep herder?
JH:
Yeah. Well, not too much. Pert near all the sheep men around here -- and there was a lot
of them in Rich County. Over here right across from us and clear up into Idaho, there was
eight herds of sheep over there.
BM:
Clear up would be like –
JH:
Up there at Mud Lake – east of Mud Lake.
BM:
Gotcha.
JH:
There was eight herds of sheep over there, besides what was over here. Nine out of ten of
them had a Mexican herder. A big part of them had a Mexican herder.
BM:
Hmm. And why was that?
JH:
Didn’t have to pay them so much.
[Laughing]
BM:
Cheap labor.
JH:
Yep, cheaper labor.
NH:
And the [inaudible] didn’t make them herd sheep.
BM:
Oh, okay.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
15
�JH:
But you know, where the bulk of those old Mexican herders, they were the nicest people
you’d ever want to be around. For example, if we picked up some of their stray sheep,
we’d come out of our herd and then we’d take them over (with their brand on them, you
know, we knew which herd they went to) so quick as we got a chance we would take
them over there to that herd. And then you could sit there and visit with – if you could
understand that Mexican. Most of them, they could talk broken English pretty fair, you
know. He’d ask you if you’d want, “How about a cup of coffee before you go back?” or
something like that, and you could talk about things.
Most of the herds that was right here came from the Nebeker Ranch right over here. We
was right by them. So if they had any problem at all over there – and all those herders
rode mules – the orneriest bunch of contemptible animals you’ve ever seen in your life!
[Laughing]
NH:
Now he could have said something worse!
[Laughing]
BM:
Oh, tell me about these mules!
JH:
Yep, they were good. They were good mountain animals to ride if you could stay on
them! Yeah. You had to ride them with a breast strap on your saddle and a britchen on
the back end to keep the saddle from sliding over his ears.
BM:
Right!
JH:
And when you’re going up hill the breast strap kept the saddle from coming back and
sliding off the tail end!
But anyway, if they happen to get or something, why they would come over to our camp
and we didn’t have much of a problem to get down here, the Nebeker Ranch, and let
them know about it.
BM:
Now why mules? Did the Mexicans that worked the sheep – did they bring mules with
them, or is that something that was locally used?
JH:
Nope. Nope, that was just what was locally used on some sheep outfits.
BM:
And why not horses?
JH:
Well, mule don’t take as much feed and he’s got a lot of good stamina; and I guess
mostly that was probably the reason why most of those sheep men furnished mules
survived.
BH:
Dad, were horses more expensive than mules?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
16
�JH:
You know, they were to go buy a good horse.
NH:
Well a mule would eat what a horse wouldn’t eat too, wouldn’t they?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So they eat less and they eat a different kind of feed?
JH:
Well, they eat the same thing as far as that goes. I’ve seen them go strip the bark off
cedar trees and eat the bark off of cedar trees.
BM:
Ooh. Well it also sounds like you’re in some pretty rough country, if you need to both tie
your saddle off on the tail and with a breast collar – you’re going up and down some
rugged hills!
JH:
You do! You do over there! Back here on the forest it’s even steeper than that! We had to
use breast straps and troopers on all of our back horses because you couldn’t keep a pack
on there right. One thing about that job, if you didn’t know how to throw a square cinch
tie, you was in trouble! You could never keep a pack on a pack saddle. So when I was
with my dad, why I learned how to tie that knot. [Laughing] You use what they call
“swing cinches” to work on that knot. I’d crawl up on top of that load and roll the square
end so he could hook the other end of rope through it; and when you pulled it down to a
cinch, it would just pull a square knot just about that big. And that pack didn’t move.
BM:
Hmm. Could you still tie that knot today?
JH:
I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing]
NH:
I think he could.
JH:
I don’t know whether I could or not!
[Laughing]
BM:
So when you were tying this up – it sounds like you’re going out to stay for awhile with
supplies for a sheep camp?
JH:
Yeah. Well every time you moved camp – and you had to move, ordinarily we would
move camp up here about, oh nearly every other day. Like I say, the easier you took it on
your feed allotment up there, the better feed you had next year. And your water supplies,
your spring supplies – it is amazing at how much it helped those spring supplies!
BM:
What do you mean by that? Tell me more about how the grazing helps the spring.
JH:
Well, you know you’ve seen where the grass is burned in the summer months, burned
right to the ground – where it’s never had anything. It hasn’t had enough water all
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
17
�summer long. Well that’s what it looks like if you over-graze it. Well there is nothing
there to hold the summer rains that comes; to revitalize that feed and keep your water
supply up. So over-grazing hurts that range more than anybody could ever think.
Anybody that does that is doing nothing but hurting their own self and their animals.
BM:
Um-hmm. And you probably saw some of that?
JH:
Oh, I’ve seen too much of it.
BM:
So what makes that change? Were you and your dad and your grandfather – was the
permit system already in place then in the forest?
JH:
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh I don’t think I was much more than, what – maybe five years
old – when my dad – well my grandfather came into this country with the first herd of
sheep that came into Bear Lake Valley.
BM:
When was that?
JH:
I can’t tell you the year – he was a very young man himself, and he herded sheep for a
big sheep company out west of Ogden. [Thinking out loud] What in the heck is that little
town out west of Ogden?
BM:
Were you around Lucerne? In that area?
JH:
No, this is right straight west of Ogden –
NH:
It’s not Roy –
JH:
No, no.
BM:
But you’re west of town and east of the lake then?
JH:
Oh yeah, yeah. I’m just telling you where he grew up. He lived in that town. No.
NH:
No, Milton’s over in Cache Valley.
JH:
No. Well anyway, that’s where he was from. That’s where he was born and raised there.
When he was around, oh about 16 years old (oh, I guess he was 15 years old), he went to
work for one of those big sheep that’s out west of Ogden – Plain City!
BM:
Oh, okay: Plain City.
JH:
Plain City. That’s where he was from, Plain City. And then these big sheep outfits was
out toward the north side of Salt Lake. And they brought the first herd of sheep over in
this valley and he came over as a camp jack.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
18
�BM:
Hmm. What is a camp jack?
NH:
Cook! [Laughing]
JH:
No, he was just an all-around –
NH:
Handyman.
JH:
Handyman, yeah and a cook.
NH:
Except for your dad, he had to do his own! [Laughing]
JH:
My dad, later on after he had gotten married, he bought some sheep and he came over
and homesteaded that ranch up here. And part of that ranch is up there where you are
coming down the canyon, you know and making loops around?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And all the buildings back there? Well, that belonged to him and it went over north of
there, oh about a mile and a half. And it come this way almost over above the middle hill
over here. He homesteaded and bought; that’s where his spring and fall range is that. And
his summer range was all over Swan Creek Peak up here.
BM:
So tell me some of the landscape features. Before we turned the tape on you mentioned
some hollows and some areas. Take us like from the south end to the north end of where
he worked his sheep.
JH:
Well, our grandpa had his sheep over here on Swan Creek. His summer range was all
over Swan Creek; it was a sweet setup. You didn’t have to trail anywhere to get on the
horse. And it didn’t have very far to come off the horse. And most generally it had to be
off the Cache National by the 10th of September, they had to come off. Most of the guys
had to come off anyway to cut their lambs out and ship their lambs.
BM:
And who checked to make sure that you were off?
JH:
Hmm.
NH:
Forest Rangers.
JH:
Forest Rangers. I don’t know, I don’t really remember having them come and check us
off. I know right up here west of the golf course, over the top of the hill, they had what
they called the “Counting Trail” where you took your sheep on, on the first day of July.
And the ranger sits there on his horse and he counted your sheep on. And if you had more
in that herd than you was supposed to have, you had a problem on your hands trying to
keep that many sheep out of your herd and then finding a way to get them down home!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
19
�So you was pretty darn careful about going on that forest with the same amount of sheep
that your permit called for.
BM:
Does your permit change from year to year, as far as the number you can take?
JH:
Nope. Ours didn’t, some of them did.
BM:
And that would depend upon what?
JH:
That depended on that Forest Ranger. He’d come, oh generally he’d get around our herd
about, oh right around the first of September (some time in there) and he’d ride that
whole summer range: Dad’s whole allotment. And check the whole thing over. And that
was one thing my dad was always proud about, he had the best allotment of the whole
bunch because he didn’t overgraze.
BM:
So he sounds like he was very responsible with it.
JH:
He was. You never saw a more honest man in your life. I can blow about him!
[Laughing] I don’t think he would steal a six penny nail from anybody. But he knew
livestock, he knew what they were about and he knew what he had to do to keep them to
the point where they was going to make him some money.
BM:
And it sounds also like taking care of the landscape for next year’s grazing and –
JH:
Exactly, um-hmm. That’s right. Your watersheds – that was another thing that the old
ranger we had up here. I could remember him, he rode and old white horse. And he
would come over to our camp every Tuesday when he was up in there. Our range was
clear up – you know where the Beaver Mountain ski lift is? Okay, the actual Beaver
Mountain is not there. The actual Beaver Mountain at that time (and it still is) right across
Beaver to the north east. That big old mountain back in there –
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay. Our allotment went right up to the flats, the Beaver Flats. You go up through that
narrow canyon there, right up to the Beaver Flats. And there was a saw mill up there a
little ways and dad’s allotment ended right by that saw mill.
BM:
Do you remember the name of the saw mill?
JH:
I’m trying to remember. The man that owned that saw mill lived down there in St.
Charles. Hmm.
NH:
[Inaudible]
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
20
�JH:
Yeah, oh I’ll tell you my memory is just –
NH:
Oh about the saw mill and about St. Charles. Was it an Allred?
JH:
No. He had that mill up on the Beaver Flat.
BM:
Well, maybe we’ll think of it as we’re chatting.
NH:
I’ll go get the phonebook and go through it – that’s what I’ve done before!
[Laughing]
BM:
That’s a pretty big allotment.
JH:
It is. It wasn’t very wide. It came down as you come up above the Beaver turnoff and you
start making them turns, you know that kid has always had saddle horses in there.
BM:
Hmm, um-hmm.
JH:
And that’s one guy I’d like to take a boot to!
[Laughing]
BM:
Because?
JH:
He treats his horses like, I’d better not say it.
NH:
He does not feed them. He does not take care of them.
JH:
He stands those horses in the hot, boiling sun with a saddle on them, waiting for
somebody to come along and rent them. What in the world is wrong with that pine grove
behind them – taking them over there and tying them in the shade so they got a place at
least they’re not burning up!
BH:
Sometimes when we’re down that way, you know, I have to hang on to him so then
there’s no stopping and going out there and turning them horses loose!
[Laughing]
JH:
Well, I love a horse. You can’t beat a good horse and the only way you have a good horse
is to treat that horse like you would treat your own self. You know? I’ve always had a
horse that will work for me and the danged horse, just like a buddy.
BM:
So you had horses too? On the ranch?
JH:
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
21
�BM:
So you didn’t have mules?
JH:
No. We didn’t have any mules, thank heaven! [Laughing]
BM:
So the horses then you used when you went out with the sheep in the summer time? You
would pack horses?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay. Do you remember any of the names of your horses?
JH:
Oh yeah! We had Old Lass and I had a little mare that I’d bought from an old fellar out
here (he had sheep and this was years and years later). The horses he used to put on his
sheep camp and I herded sheep for him a couple of years out here anyway, out on his
spring and fall range up on the top of south of Lake Town.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And he had some horses that were so old, they would start to stumble with you and
before they’d quit stumbling they’d be 100 feet down the road with you. They were just
wore out. So his son-in-law got a chance to buy some young mares that came off the
Carter desert out here in Wyoming.
BM:
The Carter desert?
JH:
The Carter desert.
BM:
So is that around Kemmerer?
JH:
It’s east of Kemmerer and a little bit north, kind of over towards Piney area.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
That’s where them horses come from. So the son-in-law, when we came off the summer
range that fall (and I wound up herding his sheep that time out here on the spring and fall
range). So Paul rounded up all but that one horse that I was riding – a big old black horse
(he could stumble over his own shadow) and he rounded up those old sheep camp horses
and he traded them to this guy that had bought a bunch of those little Morgan mares.
[End Tape 1: B; Begin Tape 2: A]
BM:
Tape 2, John Hansen and Side A.
Go ahead with the Morgan thoroughbred story.
JH:
[Laughing] Well, anyway, Paul he traded those old, wore out sheep camp horses. They
were in good shape, they were fat and so they brought a lot of money. They was buying
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
22
�them for fox feed. And so Paul, he just made a trade with them for some of those little
thoroughbred Morgan mares.
BM:
Okay. Hang on – for fox feed, who is raising foxes? In the Valley?
JH:
Yeah. There was (I can’t remember his first name), but he was a stock from down here at
Fish Haven. He used to have foxes. But I think he’d gone out of business by then. But
most of the foxes came from over east of Preston, Idaho.
BM:
Okay. And they’re raising foxes for what particular industry?
JH:
Fur; for the fur industry.
BM:
Fur? So coats and other -- ?
JH:
Yeah, just for their coats, just for their fur. So when the boss seen them little mares, he
really blew up. He cussed that son-in-law up one side and down the other one and he
said, “Nothing but a bunch of junk!” He says, “Ain’t worth nothin’!” He says, “they’re
not even worth having on the ranch! Just load ‘em up and get ‘em out of here!” he says.
And he says, “We’ll go somewhere and find some horses!”
Paul told him, he said, “Well, we can go find you some horses Tom, but you’re going to
pay around $1,000 a piece for them horses if you expect your riders to get anything done
on this ranch.”
“Well what did you sell them others for?”
“Because,” he said, “they had run out from under us too many times. They get right down
on their knees,” he said, “and plow their nose in the dirt. You’re going to kill some of
your men one of these days!”
So they argued and argued and argued and no sir, Tom, he wanted them horses, them
little mares. (What was it I think – there was five of them, five of them.) So the boss, he
was going on like that and I had my eye on one of them and I just thought, “Well, you
know, I’ll betcha I could get that mare for 50 bucks.” So while he was going on, “It ain’t
worth nothin’, it ain’t worth nothin’.” When he stopped, I just, “Tom, I’ll just give you 50
bucks for that little mare right there, if you will sell her to me right now.”
“Get her outta here! You’re on!”
[Laughing]
JH:
I hadn’t even talked to her! We were a little short on cash anyhow!
BH:
Was this Snooks?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
23
�JH:
Yeah.
NH:
Yeah, this is Snooks.
BH:
This is Snooks that nobody could ride except when Dad came home, she would saddle up
to Dad. I remember her.
JH:
So anyway, I rode her out that winter. There was never a time she ever bucked with me. I
just made good friends with her and once in a while I’d sneak her a little sugar
[laughing], and a little extra oats or something, you know. And we got along just
wonderful. And then when I quit herding sheep and went back to punching cows, that
thing turned into the best cow horse we ever had on this place.
BM:
But you were the only one that could ride her?
JH:
Yeah.
NH:
Yes.
BH:
She ran away with me on her.
BM:
Oh!
BH:
I was coming down with Uncle Stan [he] was bringing the cows down, and I was up there
with him and I begged him to get on her. And he thought, well if he had a hold of her
bridle maybe I could. So he gave in and let me get on top of her, and she got away from
him and ran away with me.
BM:
Oh my! How old were you Bonnie?
BH:
Oh, about nine I think, right around there.
NH:
I think, yeah.
BH:
And we were headed for the highway.
BM:
Oh!
BH:
And there was a fence at the bottom of the pasture there. And I could see that fence
coming – I don’t know what happened, but I fell off of it, right in the middle of a cow
pie!
[Laughing]
JH:
Soft landing! [Laughing] Soft landing!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
24
�BH:
And Uncle Stan said, “Don’t you tell your mother that I let you get on that horse!”
[Laughing]
JH:
He didn’t like to ride her very good because she got out from under him a time or two.
She’d turn with a cow. I just talked to that little mare and she just picked it up as a
natural, you know. She’d lay that shoulder right into a cow and that cow got ornery and
tried to go around her, why she’d just – and that cow would just over. And the cow would
generally go on her knees, you know. But when that cow got up that little sorrow mare
had her right on the loop of the tail that sticks up – POP! She could take the hair right off,
and that cow would bellar, man! She’d get back in the herd and she’d stay here!
[Laughing]
JH:
But what I’m going to tell you about, you’re not going to believe, I know! That’s the only
cow horse I rode from Goodwin’s. The only cow horse that I ever seen that you could get
a cow in a fence, going down that fence and trying to get by you, and you’d reach over
and grab that cow by the nose and make her back up, you know. She’d get over there in
the fence. When that cow tried to get between her and that fence again, she planted all
fours and run them back, sure as the cow on your right. You just take your rope, once that
brass horn [clapping hands] banged her on the nose and she behaved herself. That cockeyed horse was running backwards almost as fast as she could front ways! [laughing]
The first time she done that with Stan, he wasn’t looking for it (and I’d warned him about
her; I said, “when your tailing cows with her, she will run backwards if that goes to go by
you and she don’t want it to, she’ll plant all fours and run backwards with him and she’ll
leave you sittin’ right there on her nose!”)
[Laughing]
And she did, a time or two!
BM:
So how old, when you picked this mare out and said, “That’s the one I want.” How old
was she when you got her?
JH:
How old was she? Three.
BM:
Okay. And what made you choose her, when you looked at her?
JH:
Just her confirmation, her build, her legs and up here between her ears is where I always
looked. If there’s a bump up there, get rid of them; but if there’s a good roll, a good roll is
a smart horse.
I’m going to check my horses when I go back home! If any of them have a bump, they’re
in trouble!
BM:
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
25
�JH:
If they’ve got a big bump, they can be ornery son of a guns.
BM:
All be darned.
JH:
Anyway, I’ve ridden some nasty cow horses that would get dried out from under you.
BM:
So you had to replace Snooks when? How long did you have her?
JH:
I had that little mare for, oh gee, I guess 10 years or more.
NH:
A good ten years.
BM:
And you eventually retired her because?
JH:
Yeah, I had to. I had her over on the east side of the lake, rounding up one fall. I was
trying to get them through a fence. I had quite a herd of cows and I was all alone and
trying to move them over into another pasture where the last ten days that I was going to
be over there with them for the season. And they was giving me a bad time, that little
mare she just worked so hard. Finally when I stopped to let them get through the gate,
why as usual, some ornery old heifers broadside the gateway and nothing could go
through. And that’s when my brother come along, about that time, him and a couple of
his buddies. (No, that wasn’t my brother that was Randall.)
NH:
Yeah, that was Randall our oldest son.
JH:
It was late in the afternoon, well quite late because he’d come from college over here and
he brought his girlfriend with him. They all jumped out of the car and run over there
hooting and hollering and got the cows a going. So when they got through the gate I got
off to go shut the gate of course and I looked around – I could always drop the reins and
that mare would stay there when I came back if it was an hour – went over and shut the
gate, come back and she was just a quivering. So that was the last work she ever done for
me. When I put her in the pasture here at the place, and she died here.
BM:
Ahh.
JH:
So.
BM:
Oh, I bet that was a hard loss.
NH:
Oh it was a sad day.
JH:
It was.
NH:
That was a sad, sad day.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
26
�BM:
So she was about 18-19 – no, how old was she? She worked 10 or more years, so she was
probably about 15.
JH:
Um-hmm. Yeah, she would have been right around 15 I guess when she died.
BM:
Those are probably big hooves to fill.
JH:
No.
BM:
No?
JH:
Nope. That’s another reason why I chose her. It didn’t cost the cock-eye much to shoe
her; she was easy to shoe. I never had a problem putting a shoe on that mare right from
day one. She always wore a double odd shoe. It didn’t take much to put shoes on her and
she could get through brush for the bigger horses, but take half a day. But you had to be a
rider to ride her in tall sagebrush, because she would go over the tallest of it! She’d just –
like that.
BM:
Oh, just jump it.
JH:
Yeah, she’d jump it.
BM:
Holy cow. And you were hanging on!
JH:
I’ll say I was hanging on!
[Laughing]
BM:
So who did you replace her with?
JH:
Randall, our oldest son, he bought a horse from (now I can’t remember his name, over
there, he would live in North Logan) – no, no. He would be in North Logan now, but he
had those American saddle horses.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
He had this three year old – a real pretty, sorrow horse, with three white socks and a blaze
face –
BM:
Another mare?
JH:
No. It was a gelding. And he bought that horse and –
NH:
[Inaudible]
JH:
Yeah, Loy Robinson was his name.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
27
�[Inaudible chattering in the background]
JH:
Anyway, he bought that horse from him and he was just halter-broke. And he brought
him over here and we saddled him up and warmed him up walking him around the corral.
And I got on my horse and just snubbed for him a little out here in the field; got him over
there behind where Randall’s house is now and I just reached over and unsnapped the
halter rope and turned him loose.
[Laughing and chattering]
JH:
Well that horse just stopped, you know. So I just turned around and headed back down to
the corral. And the horse he just (we named him Mac, well I guess I did), and the horse,
he just followed us for a little ways. And then pretty soon that horse hit a running walk
and he never stopped until he got to the barn door. And that’s the way that horse was for
all the time we had him here on the ranch. You could get him up in the morning, jump
him out of the truck over there when you was going to round up or move to another
pasture, to get him out of there (just about the time the sun was coming up and by about
six o’clock), that night you could aim him back to the truck and he would hit that running
walk and that sucker was there until he got to the truck. He just had that much guts to
him. He was just an all around good horse. He was fast, you could rope off of him.
Randall never really rode him a heck of a lot!
NH:
He wasn’t here!
JH:
Well, that’s right, he was. He was in college most of the time.
NH:
College and on a mission, and –
JH:
Yeah, and then he went on a mission, didn’t he? Yeah.
NH:
Yeah. He got one year of college and then he went on his mission.
BM:
But this is a horse that other people could ride, unlike Snooks who -- ?
JH:
Well, I wouldn’t have put a kid on him. I wouldn’t have put somebody on him that, you
know, wasn’t very used to riding for the simple reason if you got him around a cow, you
better be ready to ride because he’s watching. If you’re just riding by a cow, if he figured
that thing was going to turn and go somewhere, he wanted to go right now. You know, a
typical cow horse, cutting horse.
I only rode one other horse that was better than he was for cutting cows and that was
Ross Jackson over here at Randolph one spring (the spring I got out of the Army). He had
this American saddle mare – beautiful thing. Solid black, four white socks and a white
blazed face and she had kind of a light mane and tail. He gave me her to ride in my
stream and he says, “That’s been my personal horse, you take care of her.” And he says,
“She’ll get your work done, but boy you better be ready to ride!” Well, he wasn’t
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
28
�kidding! That horse knew more in a half-book second about what a cow was going to do
than I would know in all the year. First thing we did, went down to the field. That was in
the last part of April, when it was nice and slick down there with slush on the ground. We
gathered up a bunch of cows with little calves and riding around them, got them all
bunched, ready to go up to the corral so we can put them in the corral above the road, so
we could brand the calves tomorrow. Well first thing that happened: here goes a little
calf, gone across the field – bam! That mare had that calf so cock-eyed quick! She caught
that calf and spun and me just still hanging out there! I had to grab hot air!
[Laughing]
I wasn’t looking for it. Well, for one thing it was so slick, you know, I was afraid she was
going to go out from under me. But he had some pretty good shoes on. They used horse
shoes in those days, not these little pressed plates that will go out from under you. And so
they had toe carts and heel caulks for them, and that’s the only thing that saved Dave!
That cock-eyed mare had that calf back to mama right fast. And me hanging for dear life
just trying to be there too! When I learned how to ride her, I knew what she was, you
know. So I was watching her and we got along like two peas in a pod.
We went out that spring and rode over to – well that was on the edge of the Carter desert
where you had about 200 head of cows with unbranded calves that he’d just pulled off of
a feedlot over there somewhere and set them up. And we had to go get them the next day
and trail them clear back through Kemmerer then pert near to Randolph over here in the
Crawford Mountains. And that was the nastiest spring I’ve ever seen. The first day,
everything was peachy; it was nice and warm coming across that alkaline desert. I didn’t
know where we was going, and the other rider that was with me – and to top it all off, to
make it even nastier, we had 100 head of yearlings in there and they wanted to go home.
And the cows was taking it pretty easy and it was hot. So he was riding the point and I
was back on bringing up the tail end. And you couldn’t see your nose in front of your
face for the alkaline dust flying. The next day the boss went and borrowed a sheep camp
from a sheep man over there to put behind his truck to follow us through and then he had
to take all of them mountain roads around to meet us here and there. In the middle of that
night, the wind come up and it got cold! Man, it did get cold! And the whole herd got up
and monkeying around so we had to get up and keep them together. And by about four
o’clock that morning, here come the sleet. And man!
I had a real good pair of bull hide chaps and I had it treated – what the old Mexican sheep
herders told me to treat them new chaps with. They were roughouts. “Don’t put oil on
them, don’t put oil on them – make too cold; when come time for cold weather, no bed,
no bed. You get fur hung up under horse belly and get throwed and hurt.” Well what are
you going to treat it with? “Go find yourself a big pine tree, with lots of pine gum. Take
big ball of pine gum,” then he says, “you go put that in a pot and then get some minks
foot oil and you put with pine gum; heat it good and mix it up real good. Go buy yourself
a new wash rag if you have to and use that wash rag to put that on your chaps. Lay them
out there on something flat and work that in.” He says, “It’d take you three or four days.”
And I said, “Well, pine gum, that will make those chaps so stiff I can’t get into them at
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
29
�all!” “No rain go through, no rain go through and it will do cold, it will do cold,” he says.
“You fix them chaps like I tell you and you be mighty glad you did.”
Well that was one time I was mighty glad I did. The chaps, they stayed just right – they
were fairly stiff you know -- just to hold their shape. And I could sit on a horse and I was
covered down to my in steps on my boots and the water run off them and never got
anywhere near damp inside at all. When we road for four days and four nights on that
trail in the most miserable, cold storm you ever wanted; calves going in every direction
on the tail end and me trying to hold them. And every time Casey come back to try to
help me, the yearlings would take off and run. So we’d have to bunch the works together
again and lose time a doing it.
BM:
And how many are you moving at this time?
JH:
We had, I think there was 215 head of cows with new calves. Well the calves was
probably about like a month old calf. And then there was 100 head of those miserable,
lousy yearling heifers.
[Indistinguishable]
[Laughing]
JH:
We battled and fought that through and out in that country, in that desert, there is washes
to beat the band; and I wish I could remember the name of them. Because when you
picked up some of these books and read them – he’ll tell you about some of them places
you’ve been.
There was two washes: one was a big, deep, wide wash and another one was smaller.
And I read his books where it’s mentioned both of those washes right out here in
Wyoming, by name. When we’d cross those things with that herd, that was all alkali
country and just as slick as it could be.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And you’d get down in those cock-eyed things and you’d have a time of getting out.
Then when I’d come along on the tail end, invariably I’d have about 30 to 40 head of
them cock-eyed little calves on the tail-end, and ma up there bellering on the other side,
and them calves trying to run back. And that mare just worked herself silly to keep them
calves from getting away. If you ever wanted to see a smart animal – brother, there’s a
smart animal: a horse.
Well, we finally got through those washes and up the other side and finally, oh I guess
about 4 o’clock in the afternoon why, it quit sleeting. It kind of shot off, you know, and
then oh man, did it cold. And then Keith come riding back to me and he said, “We
haven’t got very much farther to go John,” he says, “we only got about ten miles so we’re
going to be coming up on Old Lady Wheeler’s ranch. Now that’s a big ranch, they’ve got
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
30
�great big cattle corrals in front of that big, old house. The house, it’s a two-story house,
it’s got a veranda clear around the top story and around the bottom.” And he says, “When
we get there,” he says, “we gotta be careful.”
[Remembering] Zeeler! Zeeler. Old Lady Zeeler! That was her name! [Laughing] That’s
what he called her anyhow! Old Lady Zeeler. “Now,” he says, “you could tell her for a
mile off, you can see her for a mile off; she sat big. And she’ll have a great, big, old,
black coat on from the top of her head, right down dragging on the ground.” And he said,
“If she comes out here,” he says, “you better come help me stop them. Because,” he says,
“I don’t think the boss is going to get over there in time to go talk to her. She’ll take a
shot at you!” Oh my Lord! I said, “Well where is Frank?” And he said, “He’s going
around there right now, he ought to be around there pretty quick now.” He says, “He’ll be
there by the time we get there, I’m sure. Let’s just hope that he gets to talk to her and get
permission to get these cock-eyed cows in that corral tonight so we don’t have to night
ride.”
Well, we kept a going and we kept a going, and I didn’t think we was ever going to get
there. I could see that one black spot, see that big, old ranch house sitting over there. And
there was a little grove of willows in a little creek just between us and that ranch house
and the willows weren’t very tall, but I could see the top of that house and there was that
black spot. And I watched that black spot get bigger and bigger [laughing]. And I just
could see old Keith – now he was holding the leaders up all he could, but he just about
had them all. One time we got almost over there and then she stood up on the porch and
you know what she had in her hand? A double-barrel shotgun. She pulled out from under
that big, old, black coat and she aimed that right -- , “Let’s pull it up, let’s pull it up.”
And boy, everything come to a halt. And Keith, he was sitting on his horse and
wondering whether he was going to get shot or not, and so was I! And here come the boss
– he finally made it there! Drove up into the yard, and then she knew who he was. So he
talked to her and asked her, he said, “We’ve just had an awful time in this storm. I
wonder if we could put these cows in corral tonight?” He says, “These guys, they’s give
out, so’s their horses. They’re wet and cold. If we could just put them cows in the corral
tonight,” he says, “we’ll be out of here at daylight in the morning.” “Well…I recon you
can,” she says, “if you know how to open that gate. Is there any one of the three of you
that knows how to open the gate?” Oh and Frank says, “You bet! I’ll get it open.”
[Laughing]
That old corral was made out of poles – I guess it had been there forever, you know. And
that gate was, oh I guess almost 20 feet wide! A pole gate. Old Frank, you’d just about
have to have a saddle horse and lariat rope and pull that gate around to get in, you know.
And old Frank, he just worked on that until he was almost black in the face and I hollered
out, “For Lord’s sake! Go over and help him get that gate open! These calves are going to
get away from me!” So he did; he went over. He just dropped the rope on the end of the
gate and helped Frank pull that gate open. And then we got them in and put them in that
corral that night. You know what happened? He pulled that cheap cap right down there in
front of that old girl’s –
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
31
�[End Tape 2: A; begin Tape 2: B]
BM:
Side 2. And we’re continuing with the Zeeler Ranch story.
BH:
The sheep wagon?
JH:
Those two guys, they just jumped in that truck and they said, “We’ll see you in the
morning John.” And left me there.
BH:
With Lady Zeeler?
JH:
Yeah! So I had to get old Keith’s saddle horse and then she was still standing up there
with that shotgun tucked under her arm, you know, watching the whole thing.
BH:
How old were you, Dad?
JH:
I don’t know, how old was I?
BH:
Were you married?
JH:
No! That was before we got married. Just about – we got married on the 16th day of May
of –
NH:
I think that was – around the last part of April –
JH:
It was, it was.
BM:
This is after you got home from the war?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
That was the only job I could find. You couldn’t even buy a job when I got home. And
me and my buddy, we had quite a stinker pulled on us out there. But that’s not the story!
Anyway –
BM:
So wait, she’s got the shotgun, she still has it in hand and you’re alone on the ranch with
her.
JH:
Yeah, that’s right. So I looked up at her and I went over and got that horse. She had a
heck of a nice barn that hadn’t caved in yet. She had all kinds of sheds you know, all her
sheds were all there, her colt sheds but they’d all caved in. And I didn’t know whether I’d
dare go put the horses in the barn or not. Finally she said, “Well, are you going to go get
the horse and put him up or just stand there?” “Yes ma’am.” [Laughing] So I went and
Keith’s horse and took him over to the barn and she says, “I guess you can tell a barn
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
32
�from a lean-to?” “Yes ma’am.” “Now put them in there, make sure you give them some
hay. There’s some hay in there. Them horses have worked all day and they look like it.”
Anyway, I took care of the horses and come back over the camp and she said, “You got
any dry wood at that camp?” I said, “I hope so.” And she said, “Enough to keep you
warm tonight?” “Well, I think so.” “Alright,” she says, “alright, I guess you better get at
it.” And she turned around and went in the house. And I went over and climbed in the
tent and built a fire and got myself some supper and climbed in bed and had one hell of a
bad sleep all night, worried about her and that double-barreled shotgun.
[Laughing]
And those two jerks never got back over there until 7 o’clock the next morning and we
had a 20 mile trail to go yet! Thank heaven it had quit storming.
BM:
But the cow, you were able to put in a fenced enclosure so you don’t have to worry about
them?
JH:
Yep, didn’t have to worry about them. Oh boy, I’ll tell you what! That was a life saver
for me. When those guys got there and then we had that 20 mile trail to go and that was
back toward that highway that comes from Evanston over to Kemmerer.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
Not in the middle of it, we would come up from the Zeeler Ranch and hit that highway.
And then once we hit the highway, we had about 10 miles to go towards Kemmerer. And
then there was a big cattle outfit just west of the highway there, and that’s where we went
with them. And we took them up there and that man was a good friend of Frank’s, so he
let us put in to pasture there for the rest of the day. And then he said, “You guys get out
of here and go home. I’ll have my riders bring them out of the pasture,” he says, “if they
need to come out. But I think they’re alright right there until tomorrow morning. Now
Frank,” he says, “where is your branding irons and your tools and stuff?” Frank said,
“Right here in the truck.” He said, “Well leave them, my boys ain’t got a thing to do
tomorrow and we can take care of them cows tomorrow.” Then he said, “You guys can
come back and help us push them up on the range,” he said, “the day after tomorrow and
settle them down and distribute them.”
BM:
So they brand them and then they’re going to disperse them up here on the Cache?
JH:
No. Over in the Crawford mountains.
BM:
Oh, Crawfords.
JH:
Uh-huh. So that’s what we did. And the next day, why we was back over there. No! Next
day they branded them and then it was the day after that we went over. And he had, oh,
he had eight cowboys on his ranch. He had a big old ranch there – he had eight cowboys,
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
33
�and then there was just me and Keith and Frank joined them. We put the whole mass –
I’ll bet we, well we had over 2,000 head of cattle.
BM:
Oh!
JH:
In that herd. And we pushed them up on that summer range of theirs over in the
Crawfords. But then we had to pair up a lot of them to get different bunches. Then we
just took them out and put them in different places over in there, in different pastures.
Took all day.
BM:
And so you moved them and then you got them up and then had a day and then you
moved them up into the Crawford Mountains. And then did his cowboys pretty much stay
with them and work with them for the summer?
JH:
Well, a lot of the fellows over here in Randolph and Woodruff run cattle up in there and
they all work together. So come roundup time, they all rounded at the same time. And I
guess, according to that young son of ours (our youngest son, Mill), I guess come roundup time they had gala outfit going up there: work all day, then drink all night and play
cards.
[Laughing]
NH:
They still do!
JH:
Yeah, they still do. Our son-in-law runs cattle out there, and he’s a bishop – I don’t think
he joined in with the boozing though. I don’t think he ever did much of that anyway!
BM:
Now was that the same time period – because you talked about getting the animals off the
forest up here by September 10th. So were the Crawfords about the same time?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm, ordinarily.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
There was a reason for that, it was a good one. Because you know, ordinarily your deer
hunt came along in October, about the middle of October. And so to bring them off of
there, by that time your feed is pretty well gone anyway. I’ve seen my dad come off the
forest ten days quicker than that, just to make sure that he wasn’t going to have to go
back over something they’d been over.
They would come off about that time to get out of the way, so they would have time to go
back up and ride for strays. He always got a good two weeks up here to get – and then
you’d never get them all out. The snow has to drive them out. That was one of the
reasons why we had to come off on the tenth day of September. Because they’d figured
you’d had enough time to graze those animals, then you had time to go back up and make
sure and ride for strays, because you’re always short.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
34
�BM:
Now you mentioned going in that the foresters were there checking your numbers for
your permit.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Were they also there when you came out?
JH:
There were times I ever saw when we came off that they counted us off.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
They never did count us off, no. I don’t know what they did with the other guys, the other
herds of sheep; it was the same way with the cattle. No, they would count cattle, but
ordinarily when I rode for this old fellow out here (I managed his ranch for a while) and
he runs cows up here above the ridge. The forest ranger would come and tell you which
gate to put them in on the forest reserve line fence.
BM:
Now which ridge is this that you’re talking about?
JH:
This is Long Ridge.
BM:
Long Ridge, okay.
JH:
Uh-huh; right above the Sweetwater Park.
BM:
Now, so the forester was there to direct you where they should go – which was the best
pasture at that time?
JH:
They gave you a pasture to put them in. And that pasture was the one that you had for the
summer. It was up to you to ride that pasture and make sure that your stock was there.
You all worked together – you always had cattle get out and go on another guy’s pasture
– so you worked together. And you’d go over and you’d pick up their strays in your
pasture and take it back to them, and they’d bring theirs over to you. And they had a
regular rider for the summer and he kind of watched out for that and helped you out, and
then he did all the salting – they’d put all the salt out.
BM:
And how often was the salt put out?
JH:
Just whatever was needed. Now, that’s another thing that these people need to know. It’s
crucial to a cattle operation – it’s not so bad for sheep because you carry your salt with
you and put it in boxes for a night, you know. And then you’re not leaving a tromped
down place. Well same way with those salt areas for cattle. That rider would go distribute
so many blocks out in one pasture, because quite often he was always moving from one
pasture to a new pasture. So he’d go and put that salt out – so many blocks that he figured
that those cows was going to take for so many days. Then when it comes time to change
that pasture, he’d go check on those salt grounds and if there was any salt left, he moved
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
35
�it. And moved it ahead to where he was going. And if you had a real good rider, why you
know, you didn’t have to worry about it. You knew your cows had the salt in front of
them that was needed, and there wasn’t excess stuff to bring excess cattle in at one time.
BM:
Now he’s carrying this on a pack horse?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And these are blocks? Like 50 pound blocks?
JH:
Um-hmm, yep. Regular, 50 pound block of salt.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And if a certain cattle man wanted his cattle to have access to iodized block, he got the
iodized block, and that particular cattleman furnished the block.
BM:
Oh, okay. So would the cattleman drop off the blocks and then the cowboy would come
and pick them up and take them?
JH:
Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. He’d distribute that right up here – I’m talking about, have you
ever been up Temple Fork?
BM:
Yes.
JH:
Okay. Right up on the flat, right up on the flat they had a pretty good corral back there;
made of poles tight enough so the livestock couldn’t get in, not even the elk or the deer.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
The association would deliver the salt and whatever else was needed, to that point. And
then that summer that range rider would go there to pick up what he needed.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And if he had to go like south of there, you get over to (what’s it called?), Mud Lake? Or
towards the Hardware Ranch?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Why, he’d have to bring his Jeep up (most generally they had the same rider there for
years), knew what he was doing, he had a Jeep; he’d go load up the salt that he wanted to
put on those other salt grounds and leave it there and then he’d come and get his horse
and his pack horse and go distribute from there. Because it was too far to carry that salt
on a horse’s back. Salts mean to blocks of salt to carry. And I’ve seen it wear a hole right
in a horse’s back.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
36
�BM:
Ooh.
JH:
So that’s the way they did things up there and it worked out good. This guy I worked
with – it was KB Hansen that bought this old ranch out here. And I worked for him for
four years. And he ran cattle down – and this is where I got to know a lot of the Cache
Valley boys over there. I rode with them for three seasons up in there; all up in Temple
Fork area and all through Tony Grove and all that area. Better bunch of guys I’ve never
worked with.
BM:
So when you were up in those areas, what other kind of people did you see up in Logan
Canyon and Temple Fork and Tony Grove?
JH:
At that time, I rarely saw anybody. Of course I wasn’t up there all of the time. I did go up
and help that rider occasionally when he’d need some help; I’d throw my horse in the
truck and go up and help him. If he had something that had got away and he needs some
help, why I’d go up and help him and generally there would be a rider or two coming
from Logan up.
BM:
A rider that was working cattle or sheep?
JH:
Yeah. One was salt man, one was a cattle owner. And we would get together and we
would go get them put back together again for him. They were just a nice bunch of guys
to work with. There was only one or two. One of those guys, you probably remember.
Had all that trouble there west of Logan out there by the ball goal where that crossed the
slough and got hit and killed that woman?
BM:
Yes! That was just in the last few years.
JH:
Yeah, about what? Two, three years ago?
BM:
Right, right.
JH:
I rolled with him all one fall – we just happened to get on the same crew at round-up
time. And I’d never met a nicer guy than him! My gosh, you know! And when I read
what was going on, what happened to him in the paper, I couldn’t believe it. And I got to
thinking (because I didn’t know him very much) about that big, wide ball pit I guess you
could say down that side of that road. And I’d see them cattle over in there – knew where
they was – I even hauled a load of these cattle down at round-up time I guess it was last
fall that I was up there and rode with them. He had one load too many that he could load
and they would have had to stay there in the corral up there all night and half the next
day. So I told him, I said, “Well, I’ve only got five head up here.” And, I said “Criminy I
can load them myself when I come back. I’ll just throw them in the truck and follow you
down there and we’ll have them down there.” Well, you’d have thought I’d done him the
biggest favor in the world! I don’t know that I did. I just came back and loaded our two or
three in the truck, it was a simple matter. We had a real good corral there. Of course I was
all alone, and then I had to lock up everything before I left! [Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
37
�BM:
Where was this corral again?
JH:
What is it they call it? It’s down towards the bottom of Tony there. You know where the
new highway ended off?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay. Then you go down the road there about, oh what? About three quarters of a mile.
So on the right-hand side of the road, and I want to call it Bunchgrass, but the Bunchgrass
pasture is back up toward the north –
BM:
So you’re not in Franklin Basin are you?
JH:
Nope, not quite. You know where Red Banks picnic ground is?
BM:
Oh sure! Sure.
JH:
Okay, well Bunchgrass is just south of that picnic ground, back up in the timber there.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
They’re quite a ways up there. It goes clear back up there almost to Tony Lake.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
That Bunchgrass, sometimes you could hardly ride a horse through the cock-eyed stuff.
Anyway, that’s where their corral was at. And I guess I haven’t seen it for years and
years and years, but they still use it I know in the fall of the year.
BM:
Can I ask you a question about predators? When you were working with cattle and if
there was a problem with predators and what they might have been? And did anybody
help you with predator issues?
JH:
Not with cattle. We didn’t have any predator problems. In earlier years, before Dad got
into range cows, when there was so many coyotes the cattlemen over there – where the
highways hits just before you get to Bear River there’s Sage Creek Junction.
BM:
Yes.
JH:
Well okay. Some of those cattlemen there was having as much trouble with the coyotes
and their newborn calves as we was having with the coyotes up there and the sheep. Oh
man, there was coyotes anywhere you wanted to look. And the government, they had
trappers out. There was two old men here that trapped coyotes for years; I can remember
them both. They trapped coyotes, they’d shoot them, whatever it took.
BM:
Um-hmm. Did they do something with the skins?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
38
�JH:
Yeah, yeah. They’d skin them out and they sold those coyote pelts – this was back pretty
much in the days of the Depression when (just to give you an example), my mother used
to give us kids one egg a piece when we went to school in the morning, once in a while.
And the Hodge’s Cache Store was right across the road from where the church office still
is. Well, she’d give us an egg a piece and we’d go in there and we could get a nickel’s
worth of candy.
BM:
[Laughing] And trade for the egg?
JH:
Yeah, in place of the egg. So now, there’s what you were faced with here. Her [wife] and
I, we lived through that. This is something else that these same people that you’re talking
about, don’t know the first thing about. And you know, when I stop and think about it
now, the people here worked together. All of them are farmers and they all had gardens.
All the women, right down to some of the smallest little girls you’ve ever seen that
couldn’t twist a lid on a bottle, knew how to bottle deer meat, or anything else. And they
all worked, you know. I got one of them out here – that’s how she learned to bottle. She
lived through it same time I did. If Mom and Dad didn’t teach that to them kids, you
know (and I know they did). If those kids nowadays, that were kids then don’t teach that
to their kids, they ought to have a hold of your head. Because at least you can live.
We’ve got a real bad situation on our hands here. And you know and it’s going to get
worse. Just as a little example, buying my groceries down here to Montpelier and in three
weeks what I used to buy down there, the same articles that cost me $50 bucks, right on
the scratch, yesterday cost me $71.63. That’s how much they jumped down there. Well,
that’s where we’re going and you know, you talk about these people that need to know
how to take care of your ranges and boy, I couldn’t agree with you more! And thank
heaven we’ve got people like you who are willing to teach them. You know, if we were
taught more about how we went through that in those days – my dad was one of the
handiest men you ever saw (I know I’m bragging about him).
BM:
He was a good person though.
JH:
He could do just about anything. He built this home for us. He was a good carpenter; he
was a good blacksmith shop; he could forge weld. He could build horseshoes from
scratch – just whatever you wanted. He taught me and my brother everything that he
could teach us.
BM:
And you’re probably very proud of what he could do too.
JH:
I’ll say. And he was awful particular about his work. That’s where we’re at today. We
need more people to pass that lesson on to their children and their grandchildren. Now
I’ve got granddaughters – two of the best articles I ever wanted to have canned: corn is
one and deer meat the other. My mother used to cut the corn off the cob and I used to
help her. And I right behind my house here that my grandmother used to use for the same
purpose was a summer kitchen, with a big, old wood stove in it, you know.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
39
�BM:
Um-hmm, sure.
JH:
And she did all of her canning out there. And Mother would take the sheets off of her bed
and put on the top of that roof (it had a little gradual slope to it). And we cut the kernels
of corn off of them cobs of corn and by the bucketful she would take it up there and
spread it out. And then I had the job –
BM:
So she would dry it in the sun?
JH:
Yeah. Sun dried. And then I had the job of keeping the magpies off!
[Laughing]
JH:
Oh man!
BH:
How did you do that?
JH:
Well, we had to pick of rocks out of the corn a time or two – [laughing] I used a flipper
on them. I was a dead shot with a flipper, I’ll have to admit! [Laughing] She sun-dried
that corn and then she put that corn in a bottle, screw the lid on tight and then come deer
hunting time, why dad would always get a deer. And she took that meat and cut it up in
little squares (about so square) –
BM:
Uh-huh.
JH:
And then she bottled. Well, you never had a better combination of something wonderful
to eat – she took that corn and made gravy out of it and then she mixed that deer meat
with it. And she would pull that deer meat apart with a fork. And oh, boy! You could just
bust!
BM:
Oh, that sounds excellent.
JH:
It was really good you know. Those people in those days knew how to live.
BM:
They did; very talented.
JH:
You know what we got today – I know this is going to be a little bit off of what you were
wanting, but I have to bring this to your attention. You know, I had a lady in here the
other day; she’d bring us quilts for Noreen to hem. A real nice gal – she’s a little bit older
than I am. I am coming 85 and I think Marie would be probably like about 87.
(Whispering: One of the most staunchest democrats you’ve ever seen in your life.) And
she sat here talking to Noreen. And she got to talking about what was going on here with
President Obama. And I was just sitting here in the chair watching her. And finally I said
to her, I said, “Well,” (she was talking about the fighting between the democrats and the
republicans). I said, “Well you know Marie the best cock-eyed” [tape ends]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
40
�[End Tape 2: B; begin Tape 3: A]
BM:
Three, side one.
Alright finish with the democrat.
JH:
She said, “What did you say?” I said, “Marie, the best thing that ever happened to this
nation was World War II.” [She said] “I can’t understand how you can think that! Look at
all the people and our boys from home that was killed and mangled in that war.” And I
said, “Marie,” I said, “I was right with them.” “Well how do you figure that?” And I said,
“You tell me this, Mrs. Democrat,” [laughing] I said, “When did you ever see the
democrats and the republicans get along better than they did then?”
NH:
Oh, you said the wrong thing to him there!
[Laughing]
JH:
And she thought and she thought and then she looked at me and she was waiting for me, I
guess to say some more. I told her, I said, “You’ve never seen politics go out the window
so fast in all your life. You’re going to have to admit it. Democrats worked with
republicans and republicans worked with democrats because they didn’t have no choice
in the matter! We was broke, just like we are now, and a whole cock-eyed world to fight
this war in and how are you going to do it? Everybody pulled together. Everybody,
because it was death staring them right in the face.”
So I said, “And I hate to think that’s what’s going to happen here, but I’m just scared to
death if they bring them kids out over there now those murderers are going to follow
them right to our shores and we’re going to be worse off than we ever was!” That’s
what’s scaring me. “And one of the biggest problems there,” I said, “now we have got a
lot of people at the head of our government” (just like these young people that you was
talking about), “that think they know, but they haven’t got the experience to handle. So
the rest of us are going to have to get behind them and do something about it.”
BM:
Um-hmm. And they haven’t been destitute; they haven’t been challenged in that way.
JH:
Yeah.
NH:
We’re all going to have to get together and find a boat of some kind and put Obama on it
and send it across the ocean –
[Laughing]
JH:
And a few more people to go with him!
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
41
�BM:
Okay. Let’s stop there for – it smells like lunch to me.
[Stop and start recording]
BM:
Okay we are continuing with our tape after lunch, here with John Hansen in Garden City.
And we’re going to continue with some of his earliest memories of Logan Canyon. So,
John.
JH:
I guess the earliest that I can ever remember of Logan Canyon was a mighty long time
ago. I think I was probably right around six or seven years old. But the earliest thing I can
remember about Logan Canyon, down the canyon very well, would have been right down
at the bottom of the canyon where you come around that first sharp curve where the city
water line used to come down and cross the road there.
BM:
So this is on the Logan side?
JH:
Yeah, uh-huh. They had just started to widen the road out and they had a steam shovel
there working (and some other equipment). And I’ve been trying to remember the name
of that company. They were a Logan company that was there. It wasn’t Johnsons, but it
was another company from Logan. We’d been to Logan, been downtown and was
coming home and we come around that curve and there was that steam shovel working
there. And he was loading a truck. So we had to stop and wait for him to finish loading
that truck so we could get by him.
At that time, most of the rest of the road clear through the whole canyon was nothing
much more than a wagon track, it was so narrow. Most places you had to pull over and
stop and let the other guy go by you. And on the curves, the same way: you’d go around
those curves awfully slow. I can remember that road up through there so well, and
especially that particular time because that was the first time in my life I’d ever seen a
steam shovel. I’d heard about them, you know, going to school and all that.
BM:
Wait a minute, before you go on. The road, the texture of the road at this time was dirt?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And one lane?
JH:
Well, you could call it about a lane and a half [laughing]. And it was all the way through
right down to Garden City. So many places you just have to stop and move over and let
the other guy go by you, or some places or a lot of places of course, why you could pass
each other but you had to be awful cheerful about it.
BM:
How did you get through in the winter time? Wasn’t it muddy?
JH:
It was closed. That road was closed all winter.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
42
�BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
They never started keeping that road open (now don’t quote me on this, because I can’t
remember for sure), but when they first started keeping that open I think it was right
around 1938 when they first started to get the equipment to keep it open. For one thing,
they needed those snow throwers real bad because the canyon would close so quick. They
were in short demand and so that kind of hampered the opening of the road, you know, to
keep it open. The first workers from Garden City that worked for the State of Utah on this
side, kept that road open through the winter from Garden City, down to the Temple Fork
(let’s see, it would’ve been down below Temple Fork by quite a little bit); right down
where the new wide highway goes on down the – that’s where the guys from this side had
to keep it open. Because the machinery on the other side – from there on down into
Logan – had all of Logan and Logan area to do. The two men in Garden City was Ross
Hodges and (oh, what the heck was his name?) and Lamont Schofield. They were the two
first men to go to work for the State to keep that road going through the winter. And they
would work all day until late at night and then they would hope that they could get back
up to the road shed to get it open in the mornings.
BM:
So they stayed in the road shed at night?
JH:
No, they came home.
BM:
Oh, they did?
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah they came home. And then they found out that wasn’t going to work very
good. So then they had to put on a second crew from Logan that came up. And then
they’d change shifts. They had people working that road the clock around. They had
people getting hung up in the drifts before these guys could get back the next morning.
And a time or two they couldn’t even get in, they had to walk.
BM:
Where did they walk to?
JH:
Well, they could generally get up to where the overlook area is. They could get that far in
that area with their cars, and then they had to walk from there, clear down to the road
shed. In all that deep snow, that took a lot of time. So they put on two shifts. And that’s
the way it’s been ever since and I think they have done an immaculate job on it all the
time. I don’t know of anybody that’s ever had a lot of problems. You’re going to get
snow blowing across that road and some of those cuts in no matter what you do. So I’m
sure those fellows have had both hands busy to keep that road open, you know. I think
that they did a good job. Of course they’ve had several different crews since that time.
But to get back down to the canyon itself, why I can remember coming up through there
in a car when I was of a young age, you know. Going through to Logan and back, or
wherever. Especially after a rainstorm or in the fall of the year, the mud (because there
was no surface on it, just a gravel road), you could get stuck pretty easy. But I can
remember doing that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
43
�And in much later years, why I didn’t have all that much to do down in the canyon itself
for a long time, until after we was married I guess. Our next door neighbor over here and
I, we just love to fish. And we’d put our families together on a Saturday night or a
Saturday morning and take our eats and stuff and go over there just above the Red Banks.
You know where they built that new house crossed, on the west side of the highway?
BM:
Right.
JH:
Well there was a good little campground there and we had fixed up a place, dug a fire pit
and rocked it all up right nice, and Noreen and our good neighbor over there, those two
women would get together and Dad still had a couple of his Dutch ovens left. And I’d go
get them and we’d go up there to fish. And we would fish right from, well from above
there, quite a ways above there; almost up to the confluence of the Beaver and the Logan
rivers. And we’d fish clear down below the Red Banks. And then we’d go back up there
and then ordinarily we’d have all the fish we was entitled to. And then sometimes when
things got crowded there, why, we went down there one time (he and I just went the two
of us), that was on Saturday; I’d see that little creek coming in down there just above the
Red Bank (which was White Pine and I think you mentioned that).
BM:
Um-hmm, um-hmm.
JH:
And I was standing there where that was flowing in to the river and all of a sudden I
could see some pretty nice fish going up. About like that, just real nice pan size. And I
got to wondering how far up there those little suckers would go. So I told Dave about it –
he was on the other side of the creek. So he came across and we started up there (and this
would have been about four o’clock in the afternoon I guess, when we started up White
Pine); we was getting more fish than we had any right to have at all, so we was just
throwing them back. And we got to wondering just how far up there it did go. Well we
didn’t know it went all the way up to White Pine Lake. So by the time we got up there it
was getting pretty close to dark and going up across that little sagebrush flat – just below
– why, that channel was so deep. I guess it would have been about waist deep on me if I
would have fell in it. And there was them cutthroats about like – you could dangle
anything you wanted to put right down on their nose and they would just not pay any
attention to that at all. I don’t think we caught one fish up there.
[Laughing]
The next time we went up, we went all the way up and the same thing happened, right at
the same place. I don’t know where all them fish was getting all their feed from, but boy
there was big, fat ones and you couldn’t get them to bite! No sir. So I tried the treble
hook just to see if I could get one. And I finally did get one. And boy, it was a nice fish
and just as fat as he could be. And that’s the only fish we ever got out of there!
BM:
The only fish, oh! And that was a cutthroat trout?
JH:
That was a cutthroat trout, yep.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
44
�BM:
Okay. That’s a very special population up there.
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
Wow, those are beautiful fish.
JH:
But talk about beautiful country, boy we’ve got it in this state. Anywhere you want to go.
And it just seems so nice to be able to get in a place like that, you know and enjoy
yourself.
BM:
And so close to your home.
JH:
Yeah, right. Close to home. And then we got acquainted with quite a few of the boys that
came from Logan to fish up there – from just anywhere in Cache Valley. A whole lot of
the fishermen that we saw were Japanese people. Just a whole lot of them.
BM:
Hmm. Why was that?
JH:
Well, that fish and rice are the major food stuff that the Japanese people over there eat.
Fish and rice. I guess you could smell a Japanese soldier a good 20 feet away from you.
You could smell him. And I guess maybe that a lot of bearing on the case. Now rice in
the Philippines is one of their major crops. And they harvest that rice – they thresh it, just
like we did wheat here, same old thresher. And the Japanese they would take that away
from those people. They grow that and they would wait for that rice to ripen to the point
where it was ready to thresh. They even stacked it in round stacks like we used to do
here. And pull those old separators up the side of them. Gosh they had those big, old rice
patties just covered with them. And the Philippine people got very little of it.
Now there’s one thing I would like to tell you about and I don’t know whether you’d like
to include it in this.
BM:
Let’s look where we are here. Good to go.
JH:
What I saw over there –
BM:
Over there, you mean in your World War II –
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
What I saw over there, it would break your heart. Did us. I got shot up a little bit and I
was sent back to a hospital. The other major Philippine island is Lety. Our people had
already cleared Lety Island.
BM:
Now how do you spell that?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
45
�JH:
L-E-T-Y (I think that’s it). I think it’s L-E-T-Y.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And they had set up a real big area base hospital there. Well that’s where I wound up;
they flew me clear down there – me and a plane load of other guys. We’re right on the
south side of that – now this hospital is sitting right down on the beach. And there’s a big,
high chain-linked fence. I bet that thing was a good 20 feet high. When we came in there
in those ambulances and we got out, why that chain-link fence was about 50 feet away
from the military hospital. And I’m bringing this to your attention so you can get an idea.
Now there were MPs walking up and down that fence. And I was wondering, and I seen
these signs and wanted to get out of the ambulance. I was close enough I could read one
of those signs and it says, “Do not feed the prisoners. Do not feed the prisoners.” In big,
bold, black letters. You couldn’t miss it. I went, “Prisoners? I didn’t know they would
have a prison down here.”
Now at that same time our boys had come into Manila. And what had happened, they had
got into that big Japanese prison camp and they had freed all those people that are inside
there. And 99% of them were women and children. And that was inside of that
compound. And looking at what was over there would break your heart.
That’s one thing I need to tell you is that the old American soldier has got a heart bigger
than a lard bucket. And if anything is going to get to him it will be what is happening,
especially to little children. There’s nothing but a bunch of skeletons walking around over
there. You see every bone in their body. And had we fed them, had we gave them so
much as chewing gum, it would have killed them on the spot. Because they had not been
there, but just a matter of hours at that particular time (is the way they explained it to us).
They made sure they we wasn’t going to be giving them anything because up in our battle
zone when we’d run across them little kids, you know, we used to get those tropical
candy Hershey bars (about that long and about so wide) and them little kids up there, they
would come around and just, “Chocoletto-zho, chocoletto-zho.” And they were in our crations. So we’d give them a candy bar once in a while, you know.
So that’s what I saw down there. I was down there for (what was it?), nearly three weeks
before I could get this leg back under me.
BM:
Which leg was injured?
JH:
This one.
BM:
Okay, your left leg.
JH:
Uh-huh. Bullet went right down here and come out down here. My buddy stepped up
behind me and took the sole off his boot, went through my leg and clipped the under sole
off of his boot – he stepped that close to me.
Wow.
BM:
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
46
�JH:
Then that was the only place in all my three years that I ever saw the LDS Church
advertised.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
That would be quite a little story, so you probably wouldn’t want to hear that. I get to
church, but I had to wait a [inaudible] to do it.
[Laughing]
JH:
And I’d only been there for four days, something like that I guess, when that happened.
BM:
Wow. I can’t imagine coming from a place like here and being raised on a farm, and your
family around you and the kinds of things you saw here – even though it was during the
Depression – and then having that kind of experience.
JH:
It was horrible. It was one of the most horrible things. But that was only half of it. I saw
some of the worst of it, right up there in the Nagoya, Japan.
BM:
Mm-hmm.
JH:
After we had gotten settled, we were using Japanese quarters and everything, and
kitchens – their buildings. And so you’d go to chow and go through the chow line with
your mess gear, and you’d pick up your chow and go sit down to a table. And when you
got through they had eight open-top barrels with planes under them outside. Well there
was four of them that you scraped your mess gear out in those barrels, and then on the
end where the boiling water was and everything, there’s where you washed your mess
gear and then took them back to your quarters and hung them up to dry.
Well, we got there (it was just, I guess somewhere around the fifth of September when
we pulled in there), so it was pretty good weather. Well the first time we ate and came out
there to scrape our gear out and wash them, all four of those open-top barrels had little
Japanese kids standing there going through what used to be pig swill. Their clothes hung
on them like there was just nothing but a pole inside. No shoes on their feet and nothing
on their head. And then here would come the adults and run a competition and they were
fighting over the contents of the barrels, what we would scrape off in there. Enough to
turn your stomach, those poor little kids.
Well, we hadn’t been there very long, the next thing you knew the mess sergeant was
complaining he was having to go through too much food, too many groceries. So the
company commander, he decided he better find out what was going on, so he went into
the mess hall, collected all the KPs and the table waiters and the cooks and he really had
a chat with them. Well, they were putting it out where they were supposed to, and putting
on the mess gear as we would come through the line. Well, yeah, but those guys are
loading up their mess gear more than they ever did before. We never seen them load it up
like that in our lives. And those little kids would come over you know, with just about
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
47
�any kind of a plate or something that they could find. And so we would go along and we
would just scrape off half of what we had. When the Army found that out, boy I’ll tell
you, they brought that to a halt in a hurry! So then they put up a big, high chain-link
fence to keep them out. And later on when it started to snow, the first time it snowed it
dropped a foot of snow.
BM:
Oh, gee.
JH:
Here was them kids over there, coming down to those barrels and hanging their little
fingers in those chain-link fences and looking over there so . . .
[End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B]
BM:
[Tape 3: Side] Two. Go ahead.
JH:
There go battle-hardened soldiers standing there with tears running out of their eyes and
dripping down off their chin. So we all of us got in touch – well all of us non-coms we
got a hold of the company commander and asked him to have a talk with him, which we
did. What can be done about it? And he said, “This is military gentlemen. You know as
well as I do,” and he says, “we’re having trouble. There’s enough trouble and expense of
getting food in here to you guys to get the job done. If you’re going to part with food like
that, we just can’t afford it for one thing.” And he says, “You’re never going to fill them
kids up.” Well who is? [And, he said] “That’s the Japanese people’s problem and you’re
not to mix in it.”
Then when I’d go out on my tour of duty, my riot patrol, we’d go by some of those little
grade schools, you know, and see the same thing: them little kids. And the teachers just
come right out and gather them little kids up and push them up to the school house. When
you’d see them, why they’d be out just like our kids, you know, for recess. And it took
almost three weeks before I could stop my squad from beside that fence and get those
teachers to say one word to me. We had a whole bunch of those cock-eyed little bars –
BM:
These are the chocolate bars?
JH:
Yeah, the little chocolate bars. I’d gone over to the kitchen and swiped a couple of
cartons.
BM:
[Laughing]
JH:
I did. [Laughing] I wanted to make friends with them kids, you know. My squad
contained eight men, plus myself. And six of them was back in that squad truck behind
me. I made them stay there, and my Jeep driver – I made him stay in the seat of the Jeep
and I got out and walked over there with my pocket full of them.
This one teacher – she’d seen enough of us and we hadn’t done any problems there, so I
talked to her. I said, “Did you happen to speak English?” I knew a little Japanese, but I
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
48
�you know, I didn’t know all that much. And she said in just as plain of English as you
could get, “Yes, I do.” And so I told her, I said, “I have some of our rations, little candy
bars. They’re Tropical Hershey’s candy bars and they’re made by Hershey company. I’m
sure you know about Hershey’s chocolate bars.” And she said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “Well I
would like to give them little kids one of these bars.” I guess there must have been about
30 little kids that was in that class.
The next thing I knew, here come two more teachers down there. I guess they got to
wondering what was going on, you know. So they come down to see what was going on.
So them three got their heads together and they decided to let me pass out a bar to them
kids. So I got in the back of the Jeep and opened up one of them boxes and took it over
there. And I passed out a little candy bar to each one of them little kids and then I handed
all the teachers one. I ate one myself, to start with so they would know it was alright to
eat. Well after that when I’d go by, “Chocoletto-zho.”
[Laughing]
BM:
Were you able to do that again? Sharing chocolate with them?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Oh, that’s nice.
JH:
Yeah. I got my squad all together and I said, “Now it ain’t right that we just go and steal
these chocolates over there.” So we pooled our money and bought them. And that wasn’t
the only school. On that 40 square miles there was about four little grade schools on it
and one high school. But around that high school I never saw anything but a little bit
older Japanese boys that would’ve been maybe 14. But you didn’t see a girl, not a girl. It
was quite a thing.
BM:
And this was in Nagoya, Japan?
JH:
This was Nagoya, Japan. Yeah.
BM:
So you were in the Philippines first, and then in Nagoya –
JH:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And then your job in Nagoya was what again?
JH:
I was a riot patrol sergeant.
BM:
Okay. Which means what?
JH:
Huh?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
49
�BM:
Which means what? What does it mean? What’s the job?
JH:
Oh. To make sure that there is no riots going on in the area. Because we didn’t know, you
know, how they was going to receive us. For a long time you still didn’t know what was
going on, especially in that area where they’d use those incendiaries and burn everything
to the ground. You know, you’d have to naturally consider the fact that feelings wasn’t
going to be very good about you. So that’s what the deal was. We never did have any
problems.
This boy that I showed you here (my old buddy) – he had a squad, you know. He had a
different district than I had. He ran in to the same thing that I did. He had just an open
heart as I did. Then we had another buddy from Iowa, that the three of us were occupying
the same room together and all three of us were riot patrol sergeants and they had their
district, same as I did. We all had similar kind of situation. The Japanese people could
speak better English than we could.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
The whole big bunch of them. There were very few of them you ever ran across that
couldn’t speak much English.
BM:
Um-hmm. How many people were from your area that you were over there with? From
Utah –
JH:
From Utah?
BM:
Or even from this northern Utah area?
JH:
Well, from Utah there was seven of us in that one assault battalion. And we spearheaded
every lousy battle that we had in there in Luzon. We was the first ones on [inaudible]
beach head. One of them was from Moab, down here. The other one was from Manila –
they’re both gone. The one from Moab, he wound up – his family is down here in Sandy.
And he passed away here, it’s been not quite a year now since he’s been gone. And the
other one has been gone a year. And those are all I know of from around here anywhere.
BM:
Were they coming from similar backgrounds? When you think of the people you served
with, were they similar kids as far as farm boys or ranch?
JH:
Yeah, quite a bit of them. Most of them were. Most of them in that outfit were. The outfit
we belonged to was a 25th Infantry Division. And their home base is Schofield barracks
within a 15 minute bicycle ride of Pearl Harbor. That division is regular Army. And we
was sworn into the regular Army and they can keep you just as long as they think you’ve
got anything that they need. My commander wanted me to ship over for two more years.
And I told him, “Nope.” I said, “I’ve had enough of the Army. I’ve had enough of the
fighting. I’m going back home over in that little valley that I know of and the surrounding
areas where they grow the most beautiful girls you’ve ever seen. I’m going to find me a
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
50
�mate, and the next thing I’m going to do is I’m going to get me a horse. And get that
sucker so I can climb up in that seat and look in between his ears and get out on a range
where nobody can bother me.”
BM:
[Laughing]
JH:
And he looked at me. He was from Texas, he was from Dallas, Texas and he came off of
a ranch too, the louse. Well, that’s when we was coming home on points. I think I had 58
points.
BM:
Wait. So what does on “points” mean?
JH:
Well, points they give you for your accomplishments in the military anywhere. Chiefly
your battles that you were in, and your citations. I had three Bronze Stars; I went from a
PSE to a Buck Sergeant in 15 minutes. And that was under a heavy battle. I was still
packing a radio.
BM:
Because you were in communications?
JH:
Pardon?
BM:
Because you were trained in communications?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. I was still in communications. When we went up to Luzon to battle, I’d
never seen a radio before, but I’d seen machine guns and I’d been around machine guns
in basic training. So they attached me to a machine gun squad. And on this particular time
I’d been with that squad for a couple of months. The squad leader got shot through the
neck (right there, a bullet). Just shot him wide open while I was standing right there
talking to him with my radio in my hand to transfer a message from him to the company
commander. I was standing there trying to talk in it, all of a sudden pop! And something
hot hit me, went down my throat, and all in my eyes – I couldn’t see. I couldn’t hardly
hand on to that radio receiver, and I couldn’t imagine what in the sam-hell had happened.
And Dave, he just hurled. And then I realized what had happened, you know. “Pressure
point, pressure point, pressure point Hansen!” I tried to find it up there, couldn’t find it. I
had to go up on his fatigue jacket and get up here in his armpit and I was lucky enough to
find it. And then I was screaming and hollering for an aid man because he was bleeding
so bad.
Now I was having to hold him and tried to move him over so I could get him to go down
so that sniper wasn’t going to get us again. Here, a brand-new squad of fresh little high
school seniors that had come up to that squad that morning and didn’t know doodlysquat about combat. Nothing. Both guns sitting out in the wide open in a bad place and
we had a banzai attack coming down the hill up there, 500 yards away. Well, anyway I
hollered at those kids and told them to get them guns pulled back and get them up where I
was standing and they just stood there and looked at me. About that time the captain
come on and he said, “Hansen,” (it was a rare occasion you ever heard that man swear,
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
51
�but boy he had some choice words that morning!), “what in the blankety-blank-blank is
going on up there?” And so I told him what had happened. Now he said, “You listen to
me and you make damn sure you listen carefully. Because what I’ve got to tell you,” he
said, “is going to mean that you’re going to have to dig in here. Get that radio,” he said,
“take over that squad immediately, and get them a moving. Even as I speak,” he said,
“you have a battle line under fire promotion from PFC to Sergeant. That’s your squad
from here on out buddy, and you make it work!”
BM:
And did you still have this guy?
JH:
I still had him, trying to get him down. Well at that time the K Company’s aid men heard
me and he come a hoofing up there. One of their first lieutenants (he was only about 20
feet away from me) and he had both hands full with his people. Then he dropped them
and come up to help me get him down. So anyway, got that all took care of. And him and
an aid man took David over and took him down. We were working on a real rocky,
awful, nasty spot. We called it the “iron head.” You couldn’t dig a hole.
And I turned and those kids were still standing there. This one kid I said, “If you don’t
get them guns back up here, you’re going to wish to blankety-blank that you did. You see
them Japs coming down up there? You’re out in the wide open!” And two of them had
came in the night before and it was the only two that he had in his squad at that time. The
other five had come up that morning. This one kid stood there and he said, “Well, I don’t
know who you think you are,” he says, “I had military training in high school, I just
graduated from it,” he says, “I don’t know why you can throw over at me.” And I said,
“Mister, one more word out of you without I see action and you’re going to find out
about it. Get a move on!” And he just stood there, just cocky – I couldn’t let him get
away with it. When you’re under orders when that happens, you take action, you take that
man out. So I pulled my .45 out, jacked her back, calm, walked down, knocked his
helmet off, smacked him right on the side of the face there. And I mean I put him down.
You’re told to kill them, don’t monkey with them. Well, I didn’t want to do that, but I
knew I had to get him out of the way. When I did that I got some action out of the rest of
them!
BM:
You got everybody psyched.
JH:
Yeah. So we got both guns back down where I could get a feel of the fire form, and then I
had to go drag him out along the way, because he was right square where I had to have
that ledge to go along the ground when he crawled up on you. Well I walked up to him
and hoped he didn’t get hit, backed up and got my arms under his boot heels like that and
under my arms, and I just dragged him down to where the rest of them were, his head’s a
bouncing. I thought he was dead and took him down and the K Company’s lieutenant
says, “Is he dead?” And I said, “I don’t know, and I don’t much care. I haven’t got the
time, I’ve got to get these guys set up.” And then I just pulled my canteen out (and that’s
one thing you very rarely had, was enough water). I just dumped that canteen in his face
and started washing him. And pretty soon he started showing some signs of life. The
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
52
�lieutenant, he walked over, took the cork off his and dumped it on him. And between the
two of us we got him a going.
Well, to make a long story a little shorter, he turned out to be the best man we had in the
squad. When I left I recommended him to take my place.
BM:
Oh. That’s great. Well you’re a leader and a teacher with that, you know.
JH:
Well, that’s your job and boy, you better do it because if you don’t, they will.
BM:
Yep. And then you came back?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And you got back on your horse? And got married?
JH:
Yep, I did. I did.
BM:
What is the date of that?
JH:
Well we were married on the sixteenth day of August, 1946.
BM:
Oh. Okay.
JH:
I don’t think I’d been home – I don’t think I’d been home much more than a month. And
the funny part of it is I hadn’t ever dated her! I graduated school down there, the same
school she was and one of my best buddies that lived in Ogden come up here and he was
dating her when he come up. And I was dating her best buddy!
[Laughing]
BM:
The old switcheroo there!
JH:
Oh, yeah! [Laughing] Interesting!
BM:
And then you both moved in here.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay. Well I think at this point, what we ought to do is stop because we’re just about at
the end of this tape. And what I’d like to do is next time we get to talk, I’d like to pick up
from that point.
JH:
Okay.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
53
�BM:
Okay? And then we also want to interview a little more on, definitely on the veterans and
the World War II. I want to separate those two. But I am going to stop you here just
because we’re about to run out of tape, and I am out of tapes!
[Laughing]
JH:
You’ve got as far as you can go, I don’t want to overrun you!
BM:
You’re fine! You’re fine. This has been wonderful. Is there anything you want to say in
closing, before we sign off for today?
JH:
Well I would have this to say to your students, as I understand it. Listen to your teacher
and listen to your old people. Go and ask them some questions; don’t be afraid to go ask
them questions. When I came home, nobody knew anything about – well, they knew
where I’d been, but I just couldn’t talk about it. I didn’t talk about it until I had half of my
children here. And then the thing that knocked me to, was the simple fact: history wasn’t
being taught. Sports had all of a sudden taken place of history that these people nowadays
need to know about. Because I am just scared to death their going to take a good look at
her. And if you don’t know anything about it, you’re the first one’s to run. So I would say
to them, learn all you can from your elders and your teachers; if they’re willing to teach
you, listen to them. Then you’ll be a whole lot better off, and so will the nation.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
I guess that’s it.
BM:
Well thank you very much. This has been delightful. To be continued.
JH:
To be continued? Okay!
[Stop recording]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Hansen
Page
54
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-01-17
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John K. Hansen interview, 12 March 2009, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah, and his earliest memories of Logan Canyon, three years in the South Pacific during World War II, 18 years in highway construction with W.W. Clyde and Company over in Springville, Utah, returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hansen, John K., 1924-
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Middleton, Barbara
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hansen, John K., 1924---Interviews
Hansen, John K., 1924---Family
Garden City (Utah)--History
Sheep ranchers--Utah--Garden City
Sheep--Utah--History
Sheepherding--Utah--Rich County
Sheepherding--Utah--Logan Canyon
Ranching--Utah--Garden City--History
Ranch life--Utah--Garden City
Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon
Cattle herding--Utah
Cattle herding--Wyoming
Ranchers--Utah--Biography
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maintenance and repair
Fishing--Utah--Logan Canyon
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Tony Grove (Utah)
Plain City (Utah)
Randolf (Utah)
Woodruff (Utah)
Temple Fork (Utah)
White Pine Lake (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Garden City (Utah)
Rich County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 3
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx2fd3JohnKHansen
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
12 March 2009
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2009-03-29
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/6ecd1a5239f78841f0e972568bea2206.mp3
4ac23eb454cb20494fd3826dcac56b25
https://highway89.org/files/original/bf96d46ed29a408de96e43cb3f0580b0.pdf
25ba4986f127c99e294c9cd2e1ae1ed1
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
John Neuhold and Ron Goede
Place of Interview: John Neuhold’s home, Logan, Utah
Date of Interview: Sunday, 22 February 2009; 9 a.m.
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Radio Shack, CTR-122
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Barbara Middleton; Randy Williams (July 2011); reviewed by
John Neuhold (July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: John Neuhold and Ron Goede discuss their experiences at USU
Summer Camp (and the skills and camaraderie they gained there) and other experiences in their
education, including those with the GI Bill; the Mossback group; and the politics of land use
management.
Reference:
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JN = John Neuhold
RG = Ron Goede
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 2: A]
BM:
I’m going to mark the tape here so we know what we’re doing.
We’re at John Neuhold’s house here on Island Drive and it is Sunday, February 22, 2009.
We’re here with John Neuhold and also Ron Goede. The purpose of our talk this morning
is to discuss a little bit about some of their memories of Forestry Camp (Field Camp,
Summer Camp; it goes by a lot of different names) with Utah State University.
Let’s start off with John – your arrival at Field Camp and some of your first memories of
that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
1
�JN:
My arrival at the Utah State Agricultural College School of Forest, Range and Wildlife
Management Forestry Camp was in June 15, 1950. We had a huge group; well over 100
undergraduate students were participating in the summer camp. Most of them were
World War II veterans (like me). It was really an interesting group. The camp itself was
composed of a central building (which was basically the mess hall and the primary
meeting room); the second permanent building involved some dormitory space, but was
mostly occupied by the instructors (the professors in the program). The next two building
were World War II Quonset huts that housed the balance of us in double-decker bunks.
When I got there on the 16th of June we had a lot of cold weather still; there was snow on
the ground. The classes started (I don’t remember exactly what day the 16th was – I think
it was a Friday), but the classes started the following Monday, at any rate. The group was
big enough that it was divided up into three sub-groups, and each sub-group went into a
specific specialty headed by one of the professors.
The professors that were involved at that time were Dr. Ted Daniels, Ray Moore (who
was at that time still had not had his doctorate, but after World War II he became a
professor here), Bill Sigler (who headed the wildlife program), George Kilker was also
involved in that as part of the wildlife program, Bill Heldy did the aquatic stuff and
George did the terrestrial wildlife stuff. Art Smith was involved, and he was in the area of
range management. Wayne Cook was also involved, he was range management. That I
think was basically the basic faculty group that handled the program.
BM:
And Ted Daniels would’ve been in Forestry?
JN:
Ted was Forestry, so was Ray Moore.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
Was Art Smith working for Fish and Game?
JN:
Well he had a joint appointment.
RG:
Like Phil Urness.
JN:
Like Phil Urness, yeah. His salary was paid by Fish and Game, but he held tenure as a
professor at the university.
BM:
So was that a cooperative appointment?
JN:
Um-hmm.
RG:
Do they still have that John?
JN:
Yeah they do.
RG:
I don’t even know who it is anymore.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
2
�JN:
No, I don’t remember who it is either now.
BM:
And that was Art Smith that had that?
JN:
That was Art Smith that had it, yeah. He was followed by Phil Urness. Then when Phil
died – I don’t know who took over –
RG:
Charlie Jensen was in there for a while.
BM:
Now you mentioned a connection with World War II – these folks coming out of the war
(you said that specifically for Ray). Was that typical for any of these other folks that you
mentioned?
JN:
Well let’s see. Bill Sigler was a lieutenant (kept two bars) on the sub-chaser during World
War II and then was assigned later on to the formation of the United Nations in San
Francisco. Ted Daniels was not in the military, but Ted (before he joined the faculty here
and graduated from Berkley) he ran ferry boats in San Francisco Bay. He was a captain
on one of the ferry boats there. Ray Moore, Wayne Cook both were in the military – I
don’t recall exactly what branch of the service they were in. Art Smith was a captain in
the Army; George Kilker was not in the military he was a “4 Fer.” I think that pretty well
did all of it. Most of them were returned veterans though – most of the students. So you
know it was –
RG:
Everybody was a veteran.
JN:
Yeah, it was a brotherhood actually, when you get right down to it. It was a very informal
relationship between student and professor. It was really a lot of fun.
BM:
Now you said, “a 4Fer.” What is that?
JN:
A “4 Fer” – you were excused from the military for physical reasons.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
One A was the top – you were most vulnerable if you were classified as “1A” and all the
way to a “4F” that was exempt.
BM:
So it was a range. That’s kind of interesting because is this where the GI Bill comes into
play?
JN:
Oh yeah. Virtually all of the students were supported by the GI Bill. That was one of the
– I wish to heck we would have something like this going again. It really stimulated our
economy – this is what made our economy bloom like it did. Getting a lot of the people
an education that they would never have had the chance to get before. Then they
managed to go on through and become professionals in a lot of the resource management
agencies. For a long time throughout the [19]‘50s and into the ‘60s (if not throughout the
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
3
�entire ‘60s up to the ‘70s), Utah State University was the prime source of personnel for
the federal land management agencies; and a lot of the state agencies. The class that I was
in, for example (in that summer camp), we had [counting to himself] three people that
became directors of Fish and Game departments in states around the country. At least
three: Bud Phelps –
RG:
Harold Wilson.
JN:
Harold was later on, he wasn’t in that particular class.
RG:
No, not in that class.
JN:
Don Smith, Jack Hammond – he became director of Ohio and then later on of New
Hampshire I think. Anyhow, there were a bunch like that for the state organizations.
RG:
Was Tom Trelease part of that?
JN:
He became Chief of Fisheries in Nevada. Don Andriano
became Chief of Fisheries here
in Utah. You know, the people in that particular class (they’re all retired or dead now),
they all got into leadership positions.
BM:
Now they’re going to places that are outside of Utah –
JN:
Oh yeah!
BM:
Were they also coming from outside of Utah?
JN:
Oh yeah, yes I’ll say! There were very few Utahans in that group, actually.
BM:
Hmmm.
RG:
Yeah, natural resources in general were primarily non-resident.
BM:
So what was the pull for Utah State and who were the other competitors at the time?
JN:
The other competitors at the time: Michigan State University –
RG:
Montana was pretty –
JN:
Montana was; Oregon State. In the fisheries area, University of Washington – they were
mostly marine fisheries.
RG:
Missouri had one too.
JN:
Missouri did, yeah, but it didn’t produce as much as some of the others. Oh, Penn State!
That was one of the major –
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
4
�RG:
That’s where –
JN:
Yeah, that’s your organization, yup.
BM:
That’s kind of interesting to me that there’s a much smaller range of universities to
choose from at that time.
JN:
Oh yeah!
BM:
And Utah State is getting such a national presence, as well as a national student body.
RG:
It was known – I got guys to come to Utah State from – Mel Stein who was the director
of the Nebraska Fish and Game – when I decided I wanted to do it I wanted to talk to him
and went to his office and talked to him about if he had ideas where I might go.
BM:
So what was going on here? Were people just so well known? Were the issues that were
being looked at Utah State so critical in terms of the whole national picture? Why such a
presence?
RG:
I think it had to do with the people that started these programs.
JN:
Yeah actually there was a big transition from a political system to these various positions
as Game Wardens (for example), and as Foresters. Well you had to meet certain criterion
to get into the Forest Service which meant you had to have a bachelor’s degree in
Forestry.
RG:
In Utah; well in a lot of those states also got out of the patronage system and it went to
like here, you had to be a professional to be director.
JN:
That came later on, actually.
RG:
It still was a political appointment, but they had to appoint it to a professional.
JN:
Yeah, that was changed under the Leavitt administration.
RG:
That was when [Joe] Valentine became director [Utah Wildlife Resources]; I think he
was the first one that was not a professional.
BM:
What was the nature of these people in terms of this “patronage” idea? These were the
people that lived in the area, knew the landscape and just slipped into these positions?
JN:
Basically that’s what it was.
BM:
But good land experience?
JN:
Not necessarily.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
5
�RG:
Not necessarily.
JN:
Depended upon how high up you were in the political party.
RG:
I think they did that right at the time, that’s how they got Joe Valentine in there.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
They actually had to change the law.
JN:
They had to change the law –
RG:
[inaudible] would be director.
JN:
That was the Leavitt administration that did that. And Ron was responsible for getting
Leavitt all hot and bothered about it.
[Laughing]
RG:
I brought levity into the whole thing.
BM:
Well you know, that must be interesting though for that transition because you have
people put in place that may or may not have the experience, and then you guys are
coming out of – you and a bunch of others – are coming out of these programs with
professional training, exposure, and what sounds like a lot of field experience. What was
that transition like?
JN:
It was interesting. Bill McConnell and I were the first two professionally trained Fishery
Biologists in the Division of Wildlife Resources. We started a program that basically took
hold. Harold Crane became the director while I was working for the Division, and up
until then it was Perry Egan was the director. He was a banker and he turned out to be a
very good leader. He was all for getting professional things started in the Division of
Wildlife Resources (or the Fish and Game Department as it was known at that time).
RG:
But they had to hire good people in order [inaudible]. You can be a good leader but
they’ve got to surround themselves with good people.
BM:
Right.
JN:
And that was one of his strengths; he was really a neat guy and I really enjoyed working
for him.
RG:
J Perry Egan
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
6
�JN:
J Perry Egan – or as his wife referred to it, she was not one of the Irish Eagan. She had a
French background and she pronounced her name as E-gan! [Laughing] And she insisted
upon that, “Egan!”
RG:
The Eagan Hatchery is named after J Perry Eagan.
BM:
And where is that?
RG:
Bicknell.
BM:
Bicknell?
JN:
Bicknell.
RG:
There’s another Egan up here in Richmond that built one of these barns. That was one of
the body guards of Brigham Young. So there’s quite a history there. I don’t think Perry
was tied up with that group of Egans. Do you think he was?
JN:
He probably was, yeah. Anyhow, it was a period of transition. Working in that system,
you know most of the people that we worked with they have only two professionally
trained fishery biologists: Dale Jones, Jay Udy and Bud Phelps – they all came on but
they were on the terrestrial side. The transition was interesting because all of our
fieldwork – we had to interact with these patronage type people holding down regional
and district game warden jobs and that sort of thing. It became pretty chancy at times
because they were very jealous of their prerogatives and they didn’t want these college
kids telling them what to do, you know and so on. So we had to exercise a lot of tact to
get through it. We won most of them over actually, when you get right down to it.
BM:
Do you remember any particular experience with that transition that was interesting?
JN:
Oh yeah. See, one of the programs that I initiated and was leading was doing the lake and
stream survey up in the Uinta Mountains. And we had a CO up there (Guy Bronson, was
that his name, Bronson?) –
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
Man! I’ll tell you – if we didn’t inform him that we were going to be in the area, he’d go
down to the director and complain. We had that kind of stuff coming up from all kinds of
directions. We never did swing him over.
RG:
His son was better.
JN:
His son was better, yeah.
RG:
Quite an artist.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
7
�JN:
Oh yeah, that’s right. He did a lot of the area –
RG:
A great wildlife artist – Clark Bronson.
BM:
Say the name again?
RG:
Clark.
BM:
Clark?
RG:
Clark Bronson. He was Guy Bronson’s son.
JN:
But you know, we had other guys in the organization like Bit Clark (who became,
actually, regional director), Jess Wynn –
RG:
Jack Rensel.
JN:
Well Jack came on actually after I did.
RG:
Jack was the first actual regional director.
JN:
He was the first regional director.
RG:
He’s the one I suggested you might want to talk to.
JN:
Yeah, as a matter of fact I talked to him yesterday and told him he’d be expecting a call
from you, so. He would be a really good one to talk to.
RG:
Jack’s a first-class guy, I really like him.
BM:
Did any of these people come to field camp? Were they part of the experience at all to
meet any of these agency people?
JN:
No.
BM:
No.
JN:
No.
BM:
So it was strictly professors at that time?
JN:
Strictly professors.
RG:
There was another dimension here though, as far as the existence of the field camp, they
did use the field camp quite often.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
8
�BM:
Who’s “they”?
RG:
People like the regions and the DWR would have –
JN:
But that was substantially later.
RG:
Yeah, I know, but they used the camp.
JN:
Yeah, they used the camp.
RG:
That’s why I said there was more than just school. The camp served for the in-service
training and that sort of thing. I don’t know what they paid for that, but they used it
because you could stay there; they could be billeted right there, you know.
BM:
I wonder if there was more of a transition later on as that transition eased over time?
JN:
Yeah, there actually was because when J Perry Eagan retired (or he died, actually, on the
job), Harold Crane took over. Harold Crane had a Master’s Degree – a degree from the
University of Utah in Mammalogy. He was really a top notch leader. He had a tendency
to get drunk too often! [Laughing]
RG:
Yeah, he was [inaudible]. He was director when I hired on.
JN:
Yeah. He insisted that anybody that was hired by the Division had to have a Bachelor’s
degree, at least. The only area there was an exception to was in the hatcheries.
RG:
And some of the law enforcement.
JN:
And some of the law enforcement, yeah.
BM:
Why hatcheries?
JN:
Well because it was slop jobs.
RG:
A lot of that was just labor.
BM:
So more “tech” kinds of things?
RG:
Actually, I was the one that started training the hatchery people; so now they have to be
trained and they have to take tests.
JN:
Well actually after Ron took over, most of the hatchery people that ended up being hired
had degrees. Those that didn’t he ended up training.
BM:
And when is that transition? What’s the timeline there?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
9
�JN:
Oh, it took a long time. My experience started in the [19]‘50s and Ron came on in the
early ‘70s (wasn’t it?).
RG:
’66 is when I took –
JN:
Oh, ’66.
RG:
I first came here to school in ’57. But I came back here from Missouri and started to work
in ’66. That’s when I started taking over that part and driving it up to get the professional.
BM:
How long did that transition take – from ’67 when you started – until they started to
really look at hatchery people needing Bachelor’s degrees.
JN:
Well right away actually.
RG:
Yeah, they started looking at it right away. They started the assistant’s job at my place
(like the one job Doug Routledge has now), they would put up the work for me just for a
short while and they would be trained while they worked for me. Then I started
developing the two-week intensive training for all of them. So I ended up teaching
everybody that worked for the state. Now when they apply for the job, they are tested for
that body of knowledge. They have to know how to do those basic things.
JN:
But it was actually until well into the ‘70s that we finally had that all taken care of. So
you know it was a long transition period. A lot of the patronage appointments they went
out by way of attrition; they simply retired. And when they retired they were replaced
with the appropriately educated people.
RG:
Actually when that started working best for me was when Bill Gear became chief when
Don Adriano retired.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
Because that’s when I told him that I felt that hatcheries needed to be straight line, and
not my staff. They had people supervising the hatcheries that didn’t know anything about
hatcheries. So I wanted them to answer to Salt Lake and the chief of hatcheries, not to the
regional supervisors. I think about the only place in the state in that organization where it
is such a straight line.
JN:
That’s right, it is the only place they have a straight line.
RG:
I told them you’ve got to have them working for professional hatchery people who
understand what the problems are.
JN:
It’s really a lot different.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
10
�BM:
So just staying on this idea of transitions, before we go out to field camp, it’s a long time
that you both have worked in the industry, as well as the years you’ve had in retirement
to look back and watch the changes. Is there another transitional period that the agency is
going through in terms of the kinds of people or the kinds of training that newer people
have coming in? What’s the difference?
JN:
I think that’s right, first of all the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is dominated by
USU graduates. But that slowly has been changing and you find more BYU graduates in
the organization now than you ever did before. And actually the University of Utah
doesn’t have that many people in it.
RG:
Most of the people I find they hired were all from out of state.
JN:
A lot of out-of-staters, yeah.
BM:
So why did BYU dominate?
JN:
Who knows? They kind of fancy themselves as a natural resource organization down
there, which they were not.
RG:
But I think also that USU (and this is strictly my opinion – John may agree with it, but he
probably won’t).
[Laughing]
JN:
That’s right!
RG:
The University up here started to get away from the idea of management of the resource.
I don’t think they learn the management principles anymore.
JN:
Well, I agree with that.
RG:
And so they’re looking elsewhere, people who do have those management principles.
BM:
Tell me more about that.
RG:
Well we used to have a course, for instance, Principles of Wildlife Management,
Principles of Fisheries Management, and so on. They teach how to actually go out and
manage the resource: the tools that you need. That doesn’t seem to be there anymore.
You’ve got ideas of Fisheries Biology you know, and some of them have some pretty
good training in fisheries biology, but they’re not taught how to go out and manage the
resource.
JN:
No, that’s right. And actually (of course I was involved in teaching a lot of that stuff,
management parts of it), you get right down to the nitty-gritty of what those field
biologists do, for example, when they go out in the field. There is a PR part to that:
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
11
�you’re dealing with wild populations that you’re manipulating one way or another and
you have to get that kind of information too. In the fisheries area, we used to teach
courses in getting information on fisherman usage, which meant core census work. That
required a lot of statistical input. We trained a lot of our students with good statistical
backgrounds (and this was also true in the terrestrial part of it). But you don’t get any of
that anymore. You get a basic understanding of statistics, but not the application of it.
RG:
No. Now they have a computer program to do it for them anyway.
JN:
Yeah. Right. Well we used to have three departments: Department of Range
Management, Department of Forest Management, and Department of Wildlife
Management. The management was basically the application of ecological principles.
And that’s one of the reasons that we became so strong in ecology – actually I became
the first director of the Ecology Center.
RG:
That was one of the chief conservations that you got at the summer camp.
JN:
At the summer camp, right; exactly. One of the interesting things about the summer camp
was when Ted Daniels – one of the instructions that we got from Ted was when you get
out into the forest, stop and listen to the trees. And he really was serious about this. So we
used to sing (how did that go?) –
RG:
[Singing] “I talk to the trees” –
JN:
[Singing] “I talk to the trees, but they won’t listen to me.”
[Laughing] [Dog barking]
BM:
Your dog’s enjoying that too!
JN:
Yeah, I bet!
RG:
I think that’s what she’s saying!
[Laughing]
JN:
One of the things that we got up at summer camp in the forestry area – and actually I
went to work for Ted after summer camp – and that was setting out growth plots in the
forest and measuring the growth of trees and this sort of thing. When I was back at the
University of Wisconsin, my mentor back there was Phil Woodford who was a plant
ecologist and he was doing studies on growth in deciduous forests. I went to work for
him and one of the things that did me good, that made a lot of points with Ted, was the
fact that I could identify trees in the wintertime!
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
12
�JN:
Hardwood trees.
BM:
Right, right; with few clues.
JN:
With few clues, yeah.
BM:
So with summer camp, what’s the male-female ratio of your students?
JN:
Well, it was almost no females at all. All male at that time, yeah.
RG:
That would be different now.
JN:
It’s quite a bit different now – 50%.
RG:
That was something they just weren’t part of it.
BM:
They weren’t allowed?
RG:
No, they just –
JN:
No, they weren’t interested.
RG:
They would’ve been allowed; they just weren’t interested. I don’t ever remember one, in
fact. They just basically weren’t that interested in the fundamentals of wildlife and
resource management.
BM:
Right.
RG:
Now, they’re probably a very important part of it. I don’t know why that is. I don’t know
why that transition happened, but we’ve got some really good people out there now and a
lot of the leaders are.
BM:
Do you remember when that transition did happen, that women were allowed into -- ?
JN:
Oh, that didn’t occur until the ‘70s.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
That we first started getting a few of our women coming in. And they were mostly in the
graduate area at that time.
RG:
Yeah. Well, there were some practical things there too. If it was just one or two women it
would have been hard to deal with them up there because it was the barracks.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
13
�JN:
When it finally did happen, they did segregate – the women were in the house that used
to be the faculty. They housed them there, separate from the men. But that didn’t occur
until the ‘70s. And then mostly it was mostly graduate students at that time.
RG:
I saw it as a non-problem. There were some things they had to take care of to make it
work for both, you know, but it wasn’t a problem.
BM:
Sure, um-hmm. Was there any resistance in the transition?
RG:
Not that I know of. John might.
[End Tape 1: A; begin Tape 1: B]
BM:
John Neuhold and Ron Goede on summer camp.
JN:
We didn’t actively go out to recruit women into the program; it was mostly volunteers as
the women came in. And actually the motivation for women to get into the field was
really somewhat different than for men.
RG:
It wasn’t hunting and fishing.
JN:
Yeah, the men were hunters and fisherman, the women were aesthetics – you know, they
were in for the aesthetic part.
RG:
The environmental activists.
JN:
Yeah, they were, yeah. That was the difference. That’s what you’ll find right now, I think
predominately, is that the women in the organization as undergraduates are attracted to it
because (we used to say because of the fuzzy bunnies) –
RG:
Yeah, that’s why they don’t go into fish, because they’re not fuzzy and grow feet.
[Laughing]
JN:
Yeah, not very many of them went into the fisheries – they’re too slimy.
BM:
Okay, so give us an idea of what it was like in a day at field camp.
JN:
It was really interesting. You know, I recall some really interesting things about that. We
get up in the morning (just like in the military), there were barracks (just like in the
military); the first thing was to go into the mess hall and have our breakfast. And our
cook at that time was an interesting guy. It was a man that was suffering from
Parkinson’s. He was a very good cook, but he was suffering from Parkinson’s. And to
watch him prepare food – well, first of all to watch him go into the cook shed and open
the place up – it was always padlocked at night (you couldn’t get in there at night) – he’d
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
14
�come along and he would be shaking like that, like crazy, and he’d bang! hit the thing
every dang time! He never missed.
[Laughing]
JN:
And then you watch him slicing onions – he’d hold an onion in his hand and bonk, bonk,
bonk. He never cut himself!
BM:
It almost sounds like a Monty Python routine!
JN:
[Laughing] Yeah, it was! He was an excellent cook; we always had really good meals.
And then after breakfast we (as I pointed out earlier) we are divided up into three separate
groups and each group went to specific activities for that particular period of time
(usually a week). Let’s see, summer camp lasted two months. It didn’t finish up until
toward the end of August. Everybody had training in Forest Management, Range
Management and in Science [Fisheries] Management. And you progressed on through the
different groups every two-week period, or something like that.
BM:
So like a module you had to go through?
JN:
It was a module, yeah right.
BM:
Now wait – you said, “Forest Management, Range Management and Science”?
JN:
Fisheries Management.
BM:
Fisheries Management, okay.
RG:
You know one part that people don’t think about is that two months – for the average
student – that’s when you made the money to go to school the rest of the year!
BM:
Right.
RG:
So you know, that’s where it really helped to have the GI Bill.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
That’s what they were getting the money for, they could go do that. But once you’ve got
away from a lot of the GIs it wasn’t so easy for students to deal with that.
BM:
Right. That’s a great point because you’re financially set with the GI Bill and you don’t
have the pressure of the summer work.
Let me ask one more question before this. You went to summer camp once in your entire
career as a student? Or did you go to summer camp every summer?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
15
�JN:
No, just once.
BM:
Just once, okay. So then other summers you picked up jobs?
JN:
Oh yeah.
RG:
Yeah.
BM:
So what would be an example of where some of the students would go?
JN:
Oh, you’d find jobs in the research area. I found a job, for example, in my second year in
the Forest Service – I worked on the Fish Lake National Forest as a “Recreation
Assistant” which meant that I had a pick honey buckets out of outhouses. I met one of my
girlfriends doing that! As she was sitting on the pot!
[Laughing]
RG:
Them were the good old days! “Excuse me!”
BM:
Oh boy.
JN:
The experiences we had up at summer camp were really quite interesting. For example, in
Forestry you’d be put through a course in field surveying (and that was mostly compass
and chain type work).
BM:
And this is a forestry chain –
JN:
Yeah, it was a metal chain and compass, plane table work, all that kind of stuff. You went
into the kind of rough field surveying that foresters were practicing at that time.
BM:
So that would be like a crew?
JN:
Yeah, we’d go out and we’d line up into work crews. Every crew was responsible for
creating a report –
RG:
Measuring the DBHs and so on.
JN:
Well, that was yeah, when you get out in the forest and do the growth plots, that was all
part of that.
RG:
Do you know what DBH is?
BM:
Can you tell our audience what that is for those people that don’t know?
JN:
Diameter at breast high on trees. (Four and one half feet above the ground) The
responsibility there was to calculate the board feet that was available for lumber.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
16
�BM:
So you not only got the diameter, you also had to get the –
JN:
The height, yeah.
BM:
Okay. And how did you do the height at that time?
JN:
It was basically using an Abney –
BM:
Okay.
JN:
Abney level.
BM:
Yup. When did clinometers come in? It must have been later on.
JN:
Yeah, we didn’t have them there.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
It was all hand work.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
In the Range Sciences area – our main job there was we would go out and measure – well
first of all identify all the various plants that you’re dealing with like the herbs and
grasses (you concentrate a lot on grasses and herbs; forest type material for livestock and
wildlife). You’d also do plots measuring; learn how to do plots. You’d do something
similar to what you’d do in forestry, but basically it would be much smaller plots,
identify the herbage in that particular area and come up with a measure of usage, for
example. You’d measure such things as pellet counts, deer, this sort of thing.
BM:
Was it also the amount of vegetation as far as –
JN:
Yep; the amount of vegetation. You learn all that kind of stuff. And then in the fisheries
area, that was basically going out and collecting fish with various different collecting
equipment: seines, electro-shocking.
BM:
Okay, wait. Tell us how a seine works for those people that are listening that may not --
JN:
Well a seine is a big net that you have two people –
RG:
A guy on each end.
JN:
A guy on each end and you just simply drag it through the water. Then when you get to
an area where you could beach it, you’d come up and you’d count the species of the
fishes that you had caught.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
17
�RG:
If that was in a stream that wasn’t always –
JN:
Actually we did a lot of that work. We’d go over to the Bear Lake Bird Refuge and work
on that. But in the streams in the Logan River, for example, or Temple Fork we used
electric shocking.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
I think USU was one of the pioneers in that too.
JN:
Yeah, we were.
BM:
Oh really?
JN:
Yeah, electro-shocking.
BM:
Could you just tell us how you do that? I’ve seen it, but I’m not that familiar with it.
JN:
The science of electric shocking has really developed a long way. At that time we were
using mostly the red current DC shockers. We had a DC generator – great big long cord
that you had two electrodes on (a negative electrode and a positive electrode), and you’d
put those in the stream and the fish that were caught in between them would get shocked
and they’d come to the surface and you’d scoop them up with a net, put them in a bucket
and then you could count them and measure them and do all that sort of stuff.
RG:
And then put them back.
BM:
Then how do you not get shocked?
RG:
You do if you’re not careful! Of course you’re in boots.
JN:
Oh, I’ll tell you. We used to get the guys on that.
RG:
Yeah!
JN:
We had metal buckets. And you’d carry out – if both metal buckets touched the water
while you were in the field [laughing], you’d actually get sparks between the fillings in
your teeth!
RG:
You could even see it happening, “Watch this!”
[Laughing]
RG:
Some of those shockers we were using surplus from the government from old auxiliary
power units!
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
18
�JN:
Yeah, one we had was a big old –
RG:
It would vaporize the room!
JN:
It was an old man shocker, huge, heavy thing. You couldn’t carry it; it had to be in the
back of a pickup truck. You had a great big old wheel (a tenth of a mile of cable, it was a
great big, heavy cable like that you know, that you’d carry around). It was a lot of hard
work!
RG:
But now they’ve got it figured out, the conductivity in the water, and you can really fine
tune; you can also kill them (whip them around so fast that it breaks their back). And then
if you’re using the direct current, the fish will come to the positive electrode, so you can
pretty well figure where they’re going to go. In the alternating current they don’t do that.
BM:
What is the amount of shock based on? Do you have to look at the cubic volume of the
water to know how much power to use?
JN:
Conductivity and the size of the fish, actually. The amount of shock of the animal given
depended on its length: the bigger it is the more shock that it gets.
RG:
The littler ones are harder to shock.
JN:
And of course, if you were carrying two buckets and you put them – the amount of shock
you got was determined between the distance between those two buckets – which meant
that it was getting a hell of a lot more than the fish were getting.
RG:
Yeah.
BM:
It sounds like there is a bit of a rite of passage here with the fisheries.
JN:
It was, yeah! It really was. You learned a lot.
RG:
Well, you could even use that a lot of times if people were upset; the public was upset
about – they’d say “There’s not enough fish in the Logan River, you guys got to put more
in….” You would invite them out to watch you shock and they would see then the fish
just boiling out of there, you know. And that’s all you would need and they would
understand, the fish are out there they just aren’t catching them.
BM:
That’s a great visual. Now were you also looking at the invertebrate population, in terms
of fish?
JN:
Oh yeah! Yeah, that was the other thing. We would have invertebrate collecting devices
that you’d put out in the stream or in a lake. We had the Kemmerer Samplers that you’d –
RG:
Water sampler.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
19
�JN:
Water samplers.
BM:
Now what is that?
JN:
It’s a water sampler that you could sample water at different depths. And then you’d put
them through a (at that time we had what we referred to as the “Hatch chemical kit”) –
RG:
They still use them.
JN:
Still use them.
BM:
H-A-T-C-H isn’t it? Hatch kit.
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
We’d measure hardness or acidity, total dissolve solids. You know, all of these sorts of
things.
BM:
A lot of chemical analysis of the water?
JN:
Right. Then we had the Peterson bridge – you’d scoop up a part of the bottom and bring
it up to the surface and stick it through screens, and then measure the invertebrates that
you picked up (mostly midge larvae).
RG:
The Kemmerer water bottle he’s talking about is interesting to go to Bear Lake, you can
drop it down to a given depth and send the brass messenger down and it trips it and you
can take a core at that point. And then you can take it up and analyze the water chemistry
from that depth.
BM:
So it stays sealed all the way down until you are at your depth that you want to take a
sample from?
RG:
Yeah.
BM:
And then you trigger to open it, catches that –
RG:
Yeah, that trigger opens it and then you start pulling up and it closes it down.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
There’s a lot of those on the bottom of the lake!
[Laughing, and some inaudible comments]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
20
�RG:
Yeah, that’s when you realize you have to put a knot on this end so the brass messenger
goes out this way. It’s really funny when you’ll hear something go “boop” and then
you’re, “uh-oh.” [Laughing]
JN:
Then the other thing that we sampled were the invertebrates in streams. And that was
basically using nets (stream nets); you’d kick up the bottom and then measure the
mayflies and the caddis flies, stoneflies and this sort of thing; midges.
RG:
And so you’d get a square you’d put a thing like a square, then you’d kick it up and
gather what’s ever there so you could tell how much there is per square foot.
BM:
So somebody must be kicking upstream –
RG:
Yeah, or a lot of times you can just put – in a stream it’s easier because you can put it out
there like that and just kick.
BM:
Right and it moves it right into your net then. Okay.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
Those were all part of the mechanics of operating in the field that we were teaching then.
This sort of thing is not being taught anymore.
BM:
Um-hmm.
RG:
Bill Sigler – the term I remember him using is that it teaches you, you have a “bag of
tricks” that at least makes you look like you know what you’re doing.
[Laughing]
RG:
Because a lot of times, those techniques are fine-tuned when you go to work for an
agency or you find out what they’re using and you get more advice, you know. But if you
go out there not knowing anything – actually it was the electro-shocking that got me the
job in Missouri. I knew a lot about it because we did so much of it.
JN:
We did so much of it here, yeah.
RG:
I had my arms strained out like this several times! [Laughing]
BM:
So you went back there and then introduced them to that technology, as a student?
RG:
They had some technology for it, but they really didn’t understand much about it and so I
introduced them. When I went to Leetown they had equipment that they didn’t know how
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
21
�to use, for collecting parasites, you know. They had an electric seine there and I set that
whole thing up so they could collect fish to do the parasites studies.
BM:
It sounds tremendously hands-on as far as the kinds of tools and techniques and “bag of
tricks” (as Bill Sigler referred to it).
RG:
Yeah. Those are we’d go set nets at Hyrum or something or the old Pelican pond out
here. And you did learn your basic trade that way.
JN:
Yeah, that was one of the other collecting devices in fisheries that we had was the gill
nets.
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
We used a lot of gill nets and –
RG:
Everybody hated them though.
BM:
Because?
RG:
They’re a lot of work.
JN:
They’re a lot of work.
RG:
Especially if you get any of the yellow perch or something like that.
JN:
Get any yellow perch or bullheads, or catfish.
BM:
Tell us why they were a lot of work.
JN:
Because of the spines.
RG:
Spines, and those ctenoid scales. Once they get into the net they’re awful to get out. You
have to pick those nets and there’s also lots of them. You might have 1,000 fish there,
you know, that you just picked up in a net. And you’ve got to take every one of those out
and they don’t come out easy because of the spines get tangled up in the net.
BM:
Hmm.
RG:
I remember the guys in Schofield, not Schofield, Strawberry doing all that work at
Strawberry they found one of the chubs that they were working on. Bud Phelps said,
“Best way to pick the net is to lay it out in the road and drive over it in the truck a few
times and then shake them off.”
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
22
�JN:
Yeah. That works.
BM:
So you have these modules that each of the groups is rotating through so they get
experience in all the disciplines.
JN:
Yeah, all around.
BM:
At the end of one module then, are you putting that together in terms of looking at the
health of the fisheries? Are you looking at the data and making assumptions on what
we’re finding?
JN:
Yeah. Usually you’d have to write a paper – everybody had to write a paper on what
you’d learned in that particular module.
RG:
Yeah. And then you’d do things like age and growth, you know and measure the annual
line in the scales and measure that and project that to the length.
JN:
One of the other techniques that we used in fisheries that we were introduced there was
using rotenone to sample (actually it was sampling), but actually we became pretty
knowledgeable about using it to reclaim lake populations.
RG:
We did that for a little while with toxifine too.
JN:
We toxifine, yeah -- toxifine lasted too long in alkaline waters and they couldn’t really
rehabilitate the waters.
BM:
Okay. Help me understand the application of rotenone: how you prepare it and how you
apply it.
JN:
Rotenone, you know, is a powder made from Derris root, Amazon basin.
RG:
They use it a lot to spray in gardens and stuff.
BM:
Right.
JN:
We used to use the powder rope – we’d get big sacks of it and then it wasn’t very easily
emulsified, so you’d have to mix it up in water and then spread it out, usually with a hose
of some kind.
RG:
It was dangerous for the user.
JN:
It was really dangerous for the user. Later on they came up with an emulsifiable form of
it. And we did some of the first big reclamation projects in the United States here what
we learned. Bill McConnell and I did that. What we learned in school, using rotenone.
Navajo Lake and Panguitch Lake were two of the first ones. Diamond Lake in Oregon
was one of the first ones that was built, and I think we were the second and third one.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
23
�RG:
And then we did it at Strawberry and that was –
JN:
Oh, that was the biggest one.
RG:
That was the biggest one ever. That was a million and a half pounds of rotenone.
BM:
And so you are putting this as a liquid into the water, or spraying a powder? You’re
putting it as a liquid?
RG:
Well, it depends. You can get it as a liquid. They started using it; they developed a
method for us to use in Strawberry, we did. Using the rotenone; you’re sucking the
powder up into and then it’s mixing and you can spray it. And then you would do it when
the lake is stratified too. The limnology was important: understanding stratification, you
know, so you wouldn’t have to treat the whole reservoir, you could treat the part where
the fish were.
BM:
Sure, that makes sense.
RG:
Take advantage of some kind of knowledge of that lake and the chemistry involved in
those strata. And that was a million and a half – we had people come from all over the
world (most of them were from around the country; Michigan sent several people to work
through the whole project because they wanted to see it done).
BM:
So what happens to that rotenone then? It goes into the water column –
JN:
It disperses pretty well, actually.
RG:
And you can detox it with potassium permanganate.
JN:
Yeah, you can detox it. The way it works on the animal is it constricts the blood vessels
in the gills and they suffocate. As a matter of fact, it also does that to humans. If you get
it into the eyes, for example, it will constrict the blood supply to the eyes and you become
temporarily blind.
RG:
When they did that up Strawberry on Schofield then, almost all the crews were blinded.
And they didn’t know that then and all at once, nobody could see, you know. They ended
up setting up a field station and they had to give them all cortisone shots.
JN:
Cortisone shots, yeah.
RG:
To help. But it scared the hell out of all of them.
BM:
Oh, I bet.
RG:
Then I took that when we did the big million and half pounds at Strawberry, I told them
“You guys at Schofield – that was an afternoon – we’re talking about two weeks out there
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
24
�on Strawberry.” And I said, “The people are not going to be able to do that.” And so I
said, “I would insist that they take care of the personnel, too.” And so they spent
$100,000 on the protection for the personnel.
BM:
So what kind of protection did they have?
RG:
Gas masks and breathing devices, you know. And organizing so that people were only
out there a short time, you know. So I was in charge of that whole safety program for that
whole thing.
JN:
The first time that happened to me was down in Panguitch Lake. I had a student from the
University of Utah that was on my crew and he got blinded. His name was Robert E. Lee,
incidentally! He actually became a colonel in the Air Force. He was an interesting guy.
You know the fish that we killed, they were edible – you could eat them, it was not
dangerous to eat them. So we’d pick up the biggest trout, for example, and take them
back to camp and cook them up and Robert cooked his up in neatsfoot
oil! [Laughing]
But it tasted alright!
[Laughing]
BM:
So the fish are edible, but –
RG:
Well the FDA maintained that they weren’t, so it became illegal for us to do that.
BM:
So what’s happening then is these fish are coming to the surface, they’re suffocating and
coming to the surface, and then you are counting? You are –
RG:
Well, yeah you do. You know the [inaudible] massive load of fish.
BM:
Yeah.
RG:
You do some sampling and –
JN:
The idea was to get rid of all the fish in the area.
BM:
Right.
RG:
Yeah. I was kind of always against that. I fought that project in the staff meeting because
I told him I don’t like using poison on that grand of scale – because you’re killing
everything.
JN:
Yeah, you kill the invertebrates as well.
RG:
I thought that was too heavy handed.
BM:
What did the water surface look like when this started to take effect?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
25
�JN:
A lot of white bellies.
RG:
Yeah, and of course there’s also going to be a huge stink.
BM:
Yeah.
RG:
Pelicans and fish-eating birds (particularly pelican), they would get so many fish they
couldn’t get out of the water. They’d fly off and then splash down again. It was really
funny to watch them try to get off the water.
BM:
Holy smokes.
RG:
You had to make sure people – we had quite a force going around making sure people
weren’t taking them up and eating them.
BM:
Right.
RG:
We had cornered the entire world market on rotenone. A lot of the Derris that grows in
South America – they’re taking a lot of those out and putting in coke plants. So it was
getting harder and harder to get that and it was quite a job to get that much rotenone.
BM:
Now tell me one more time the name of the plant that rotenone comes from?
JN:
Derris root.
RG:
Derris root.
BM:
How do you spell that?
JN:
D-E-R-R-I-S.
BM:
Okay. [Derris is a genus name; Derris elliptica from the tropical and subtropical climates
was used to derive Rotenone.]
JN:
These are all techniques that we learned in summer camp, actually when you get right
down to it. It was carried on into the profession by the students that went through those
programs.
RG:
Yeah, but a lot of those were wrong and they’d just refine them so they would understand
more how to fine-tune the program and actually use what you know. Taking out, you
know, mosquitoes with a hammer or something like that.
BM:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
26
�JN:
Actually the summer camp was really very interesting: in addition to all of these
techniques that you learned, you developed a real fellowship with your fellow students.
We’re in the field together, you slept together, you ate together; all of that sort of thing.
RG:
Camaraderie in a lot of ways.
JN:
You made life-long lasting friendships, actually which was very useful. We also had a lot
of hijinx that went on. One that I remember particularly, we had one Japanese student (a
guy by the name of Min Herinaca [spelled phonetically]. (He ended up getting his
doctorate, and I think he’s retired as a professor up at University of Idaho now.) But
anyhow, we had these mummy bags that we were sleeping in and I remember the Bud
Phelps and two or three other guys got together and it was time to get up. Min was kind
of reluctant to get out of bed in the morning and he was always snuggled down inside his
sleeping bag. So we grabbed his sleeping bag and pulled off to the side and drop it like
that (of course, two other guys would catch him) and he’d be going inside his bag like
that! [Laughing] It’s amazing that he wouldn’t rip it out!
[Laughing]
JN:
And the other thing is that we had . . .Yale University would bring their geology classes
out and we would put them during summer camp in that area. Of course during the
weekends – those poor guys they were out working all the time (the Yale guys were) –
and our boys would go downtown to Delmar [bar in Logan, Utah] and get drunk! And
they would come back up and in the middle of the night they would singing “bah, bah
black sheep, have you any wool for me?” [Singing and laughing] Serenading the Yale
boys!
BM:
Well you know, as far as you mentioned, all that stuff goes on and it does create
fellowship and collegiality. And from what I’ve heard from some other folks about field
camp is those are lifelong colleagues and lifelong friendships in many cases.
JN:
Yeah, absolutely.
BM:
Alright. Do you have one in particular that you can remember?
JN:
Life long fellowships? Bill McConnell and me.
JN:
Bill McConnell and I, we became like brothers, actually. We went to work for the
Division of Wildlife – or the Fish and Game Department at that time.
RG:
That was the second and third PhD for USU.
JN:
Yeah. Yeah Bill was the second – Kenny Wolf was the first.
RG:
Wolf, I got to know real well when I was at Leetown.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
27
�JN:
Kenny became a world-class virologist and was the “father” actually of fish virology.
JN:
Yeah. He was the first, and Bill McConnell was the second and I was the third PhD out of
Fish and Wildlife.
RG:
Ken was also the one that figured out the life cycle of whirling disease.
JN:
Right. Nobody believed him!
RG:
But we’re not talking about just in Wildlife: that was number one, two, three, and four for
the whole university.
BM:
Oh!
RG:
That was the beginning of the PhD programs.
JN:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
They were just as college for a while.
JN:
The Wildlife Department actually started the PhD programs in the university.
BM:
That’s right. What was your PhD in?
JN:
It was in Aquatic Ecology, basically: Aquatic Toxicology.
BM:
Studying?
JN:
It was studying florid effects on fish. That was mine. Bill McConnell’s PhD was on
stream periphyton.
BM:
What’s that?
JN:
Stream algae.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
And Kenny Wolf’s was –
RG:
Blue sac.
JN:
Blue sac disease in fish.
BM:
And what is that disease?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
28
�RG:
He did a lot of that work for White’s trout farm.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
It’s tied up more with –
JN:
It’s a bacterial disease.
RG:
Well, but no. No, it’s ammonia and low circulation in the eggs.
JN:
Oh, yeah; it’s secondary bacterial infections.
RG:
Yeah, you got the – and it’s blue; the egg sac is blue.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
It took a long time before we figured it out. A lot of it was just short-circuiting the eggs
while they were being incubated. Some of them weren’t all getting water.
BM:
And what was the source of that?
RG:
Mostly ammonia was actually part of the metabolism of the fish –
JN:
Metabolism of the eggs themselves.
BM:
Okay.
RG:
But the circulation was so poor that it would be high and up –
[End Tape 1: B; begin Tape 2:A]
RG:
So anyway, like the two week intensive training that I gave the hatchery people. They
were there for two weeks – through the weekends, you know. We went straight through
because I didn’t want to send them back, way out all over the state, that’s too much
money. So, on Sunday we would have a picnic or something you know. But I noticed that
over the years – I took about 12 or 13 of them at a time, you know. And then we’d do it
until we had them all. So we were about a dozen groups that I would have for two weeks.
But I noticed that every time, after that when you’d have a section-wide or division-wide
meeting at Camp Williams or whatever, those guys were hanging out together. And that’s
part of that life-long –
BM:
Right.
RG:
It’s just not the fact that you took the group, but it’s a fairly intense thing. They live
together, they work together, they slept together, have a good time together, you know.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
29
�BM:
Um-hmm. Right.
RG:
So it takes more than just, like up here just taking a class with somebody.
BM:
Um-hmm.
RG:
That’s really important, I think.
JN:
That was one of the really great benefits about summer camp, I thought. Like I say, we
have lifelong friendships that unfortunately we keep burying now. One of the things that
stemmed out of it was our Mossback group. Actually our peers that we’ve worked
together for all these many years, but the summer camp together (a lot of us did) and
ended up carrying out in our so-called Mossback group.
RG:
We were the ones that did the transition from empirical wisdom to science.
JN:
Yeah.
BM:
Do you want to explain that?
RG:
A lot of the empirical wisdom, you just kind of learn on the job from you know, a lot of
them were pretty good at that. The people had a lot of good motivation and so forth, but
they didn’t have that kind of training. The professionals went from the good ol’ boys that
you hired that just knew what the animals in Logan were, to guys who were
professionally trained and were going to use all these new procedures and methods and
assessments. And all that becomes part of the interpretive stuff that’s brought up all the
way through the legislature.
BM:
Um-hmm.
RG:
You know, and a way to keep track and compare and start to develop these data bases.
And that was – John and Bill probably started that. They’re the ones that kicked that off.
But that whole bunch then became that – I call it the “vanguard” for that transition. I also
called it – in that Mossback book, I called it “vanguards of a young profession;” because
it was very much a young field.
JN:
After World War II it was.
BM:
Now, tell us a little bit about the “Mossback” group because I think they are crossreferenced at Special Collections, or will be.
RG:
Yeah, they have a copy of that book. I gave that to Brad [Cole] [USU Special Collections
& Archives: 925 G551]
BM:
So the Mossbacks are…..doesn’t sound like foresters.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
30
�RG:
No.
JN:
No, it was actually mostly fishery people.
RG:
Yeah, it’s basically something that’s been around long enough that it’s got moss growing
on its back!
JN:
We had some few other people come in.
RG:
They are still peers.
JN:
Yeah Doug Day was a peer. I think he did one year of work up here at Utah State, and he
got his degrees down at University of Utah. And the other guy we brought in was Bob
Benke, who was actually University of California-bred.
RG:
And Bob Wiley.
JN:
Bob Wiley, who was University of Wyoming-bred. But they were peers and they were
people that we worked with.
RG:
They were working on Flaming Gorge, and all these things, where we shared the waters,
you know: Flaming Gorge, Lake Powell, a lot of interstate waters. I remember those kind
of became part of your peer group.
JN:
Jack Jensen was the other one too.
RG:
Jack was actually one.
JN:
He was a Penn Stater.
RG:
You’ll enjoy talking to Jack. He’s just a first-class guy.
BM:
I’m looking forward to it.
What about, you know? What field camp faces through the decades with so many other
people that have talked about it are challenges. And keeping in form, you mentioned one
in terms of the GI Bill being so beneficial to supporting, and so that pressure for earning
money that summer wasn’t there. Were there other challenges with you? I mean how did
they handle families? If people came in that had wives or children?
JN:
Oh. Well here at the university we had temporary housing.
BM:
JN:
Okay.
They were actually military buildings that were – actually Utah State was known for one
time as the “West Point of the West.” We had a huge ROTC group here.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
31
�RG:
The student housing was called “Morning Sickness Row.”
JN:
Yeah.
[Laughing]
JN:
It was! Yeah –
RG:
It was “Morning Sickness Row”! “We’re over in Morning Sickness Row…”
JN:
But the temporary buildings – they’re all gone now, but –
BM:
Where were those located?
JN:
Where the Ag Sciences building is right now –
BM:
Um-hmm.
JN:
That area.
RG:
They used to be over where the over where the Triads [married student housing, now
called Aggie Village] are too, weren’t they?
JN:
No. That was all farm land.
RG:
Yeah, that’s right.
JN:
And an airport. We had an airport up here when I first came out here.
BM:
So what did these buildings look like?
JN:
Well, have you seen those temporary military barracks? We also had Quonset huts were
part of it.
RG:
Quonsets.
JN:
We had a trailer park that –
RG:
They weren’t very plush.
JN:
Yeah, they weren’t very plush, but they were old military trailers. And then we had two
story buildings that were divided up into apartments. When Ruth and I came out here (we
were married when we came out here), we rented an apartment in one of those – an
upstairs apartment. It was a one bedroom (I don’t think there were any two bedrooms,
there was only one bedroom ones), and a combination living room/dining room, and a
bathroom and that was it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
32
�BM:
You’re up in summer camp for two months and Ruth is in town?
JN:
I wasn’t married at that time.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
She came later. I told you about when I first came out here in 1950 and came across a dirt
road down Laketown Canyon to Bear Lake. I got this spiritual experience going through
the canyon. Two years later I brought my new bride down the same way: down through
Laketown canyon. And it was in January, and the lake was frozen, there was snow all
around it, you know. And we came down into the bottom of the Logan Canyon and came
to a sign that says, “You are now entering Logan: a town designed for living.” And Ruth
said, “Where’s the town? Where’s the town?”
[Laughing]
JN:
I took her over to the Quonset, which was just upside and said, “This is our apartment.”
And she said, “Well where’s the town?”
[Laughing]
JN:
I finally took her downtown and she was so delighted to see that there was a drugstore
down there.
RG:
Only one: Lowcost.
JN:
Lowcost, yeah!
BM:
How big was Logan at that time?
JN:
Oh, only about 8,000 people, I think. Something like that.
RG:
Yeah, the whole valley was about 30,000.
JN:
Well at that time, no, the valley was even less than that! It was, I think it was 16,000
people.
RG:
Strictly rural.
BM:
Wow.
JN:
Strictly rural, yeah.
[Stop and start recording]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
33
�JN:
Fieldwork that went on, we’d have to get permission from the Ranger. So the Ranger
would work with us, for example.
BM:
This is the Ranger on the Logan District?
JN:
The Logan District, right.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
Let’s see, we also – I can’t remember that we had any Fish and Game people involved at
that time. No, not at that time. It was mostly the Forest Service. And some of our field
trips took us out into Bureau of Land Management land, and we’d have the BLM Ranger
talk to us, give us some of the umbrella-sort of experiences.
BM:
And where did you go?
JN:
Well, for the Forest Service we stayed here in the Cache.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JN:
A lot of the Fish and Game work we went down to the Bear River Bird Refuge – we did
a lot of work down there on birds and also on fish. Bureau of Land Management was over
in Rich County, basically. We’d get into that and we’d have (I can’t recall the names of
the people that we had involved down there at that time). Most of our fieldwork was done
locally. We didn’t go off on any long distance – a lot of that came later.
At the university in our junior and senior years, especially senior year, we organized into
what we referred to as “senior field trips.” These were usually two week affairs that we
went through the west. We’d go – two of them that I was involved in as a student – we
went into the Columbia River basin, for example, stayed at Oregon State, Northern
California, southern Washington and Oregon; spent our time there looking at salmon
fisheries and all this sort of stuff.
The second one that we went into the desert. We went down into the Grand Canyon area,
Arizona, New Mexico, desert big game range. It was mostly a big game thing. This was
the wildlife thing. The foresters also had similar trips, as did the range management
people. But that also stopped after a while; they stopped doing that. I remember after I
joined the faculty I took several of them out on field trips myself. You know, it always
ended up being a big logistic problems because you had to find places to stay and feed
your troops kind of stuff.
RG:
Even that sort of thing, I think, was probably impacted to a certain extent by the GI Bill.
BM:
How so?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
34
�RG:
Because even two weeks was not an easy thing for somebody that was having to work
just to stay in school.
BM:
Right.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
And I think once the GI Bill petered out, that was pretty much what stopped it.
JN:
That pretty well stopped that kind of stuff, yeah.
BM:
Well and it also sounds like field camp was all of the departments together –
JN:
Yeah, it was.
RG:
Yeah.
BM:
And these senior field trips were more separated by your specialties.
JN:
They were separated, yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
Into your specialty areas, yeah. Up here in the Cache, a lot of our work was centered on
what became the school forest later on. And actually I remember when I went to work
after summer camp, I went to work for Dr. Daniels and Ray Moore, my two team leaders
were Sterling Rickman and (I can’t remember his name, he was from Arkansas) [Sam
Jackson]. Anyhow, our job was basically to go out and lay out growth plots. We did
chain and compass work with that. And we laid out a grid of growth plots that became the
basis for growth on the forest. Later on they would revisit these plots every year to see
what the changes in growth were and the species composition, and so on. And that was
really very interesting work for me.
BM:
And you’re getting long-term information.
JN:
And long-term information that the school really benefit – or the research done by the
Forestry Department - actually benefited from. I do remember that we had a campout –
we didn’t have cabins or anything to stay in, so we stayed in tents – and I became very
constipated and developed a severe case of bleeding hemorrhoids.
BM:
Oof!
RG:
It was the pain in the ass!
JN:
Yeah, it was a pain in the ass.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
35
�[Laughing] [Omitted from transcript personal information]
BM:
Well one other thing that you haven’t mentioned is Benchmark Hill. Was this part of your
era?
JN:
Yeah, that’s where we did a lot of our surveying work.
BM:
Right.
JN:
That’s why it was called “Benchmark Hill.” We learned about the U.S. Geological
Service benchmark system. And we did have a benchmark there. Then we had to locate
benchmarks on the rest of the forest; that was part of our exercise. That’s where we also
found a lot of rattlesnakes. That was “Rattlesnake Hill” as far as I was concerned. The
first three rattlesnakes I ever saw in the state of Utah, I stepped on…before I saw them!
BM:
Yeah.
JN:
Fortunately I was never bit.
BM:
Oh!
RG:
They were still taking courses in surveying too, weren’t they?
JN:
Yeah, that was surveying courses.
RG:
You’d take actually a course in surveying.
JN:
Yeah, that was after.
RG:
After.
JN:
No, no, no. That was – I transferred from the University of Wisconsin, so I had my
surveying back there. But you took your surveying here as a freshman and a sophomore,
before summer camp.
RG:
Yeah. I took mine at Nebraska.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
Everybody had benchmarks to work with.
BM:
You know, it sounds like (and you mentioned before) what an experience this was in
terms of eating, sleeping and dreaming together and working hard. I mean I bet there
were some long hours.
RG:
Yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
36
�JN:
There were long hours. It was hard work, there were long hours, yeah.
RG:
But you didn’t mind it; I didn’t mind it. You’d get tired, but you had fun doing it. Just a
great experience.
JN:
Oh, Sam Jackson was the other guy’s name: Sam Jackson and Sterling Rickman. Sterling
Rickman died, I think two years after we graduated from the University, from the college.
And Sam Jackson became some kind of a big shot down in Arkansas. I think he became
the director of the Arkansas Department of Fish and Game.
BM:
Hmm. Well when you think of students today that are graduating in these fields (you
know, all the departments within Natural Resources), what are they missing by not
having something like a field camp experience?
JN:
Well one of the things I think they’re missing is the camaraderie; field experience, the
technology and techniques. This is the sort of thing now they have to learn on the job,
after they get hired.
RG:
We also, in those days, we didn’t have such thing as work study students. You helped
your colleagues.
JN:
Oh yeah!
RG:
Otherwise, you were dead in the water. Everybody would just go out and go help set nets,
or go help electro-shock or work with bottom samples. I learned more from those things
than I did from my own study. And they would help me to.
BM:
So you weren’t getting paid for it, but it was hands-on learning?
RG:
Yeah.
BM:
That you could do with somebody doing a research project?
RG:
Yeah and none of you could do it because you’re all needed, so somebody’s got to hold
the other end of the seine, or something like that.
BM:
Right, right.
RG:
If you don’t have –
JN:
And that was all volunteer.
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
Everybody volunteered to help everybody else.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
37
�RG:
A lot of times you would end up – if you caught a bunch of fish – you’d have a big
barbecue up the canyon or something like that.
JN:
Send [?] from Logan to Wyoming to bring a keg of beer back.
RG:
A keg of beer, yeah!
[Laughing]
JN:
And the wives would make potato salad, and all that kind of stuff, and we would have a
great, big blastoff.
RG:
It would often be last minute a lot of times because you didn’t plan it because you didn’t
know you were going to have those fish always.
BM:
Right, right.
RG:
I don’t know whether I’m not that aware of it anymore because I’m not that involved up
here anymore, but I don’t think it’s there; I don’t hear it, I don’t sense it.
JN:
I’ve got that impression. I’ve got the same impression that there isn’t that same kind of
camaraderie among our graduate students, for example, as it used to be. Or among the
faculty; the faculty have basically become isolated in their own area of endeavor, you
know, and they don’t seem to want to get out of it for some reason.
RG:
They’ll all have lunch at the Skyroom [USU campus restaurant] or something, you know.
But we used to have lunch right here and everybody was invited you know.
JN:
Yeah. Cases of glicksteich [unsure of spelling].
BM:
What is that?
JN:
Malt liquor!
RG:
Malt liquor. It was pretty strong stuff. It came in about this size.
BM:
Well it sounds like the camaraderie was field oriented, versus being office or building, or
Skyroom oriented, as you’re saying.
JN:
Well it was and it wasn’t. After I became a faculty member, I used to have a graduate
student bull pen where all my graduate students would be housed together. And that sort
of a thing went on after I graduated as a student and became a faculty member. And those
were interesting. Every morning I would go down and sit with the graduate students and
we would just talk about things at random. We kind of learned a hell of a lot from each
other. I learned a lot as a faculty member too.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
38
�RG:
[inaudible] good reason.
JN:
Yeah. The one thing that impressed me about that whole thing is I was the only Democrat
in the whole bunch and all my students were Republicans.
[Laughing]
RG:
Well they had the old cubicles there –
JN:
Oh yeah, in the old building.
RG:
In the old forestry building.
JN:
That was a bull pen.
RG:
Where the parking thing is out on the – what is that street? 8th?
BM:
Or 7th?
RG:
7th?
BM:
Um-hmm. 7th North.
RG:
Yeah that was where – then you also had the guy you walk up the street – the old College
Bluebird. That’s where everybody had coffee.
BM:
Where was that?
RG:
It was basically where the LDS Institute is up there.
BM:
Okay.
JN:
Right on that corner.
BM:
So on the corner of 8th East and 7th North, at that light? In from there?
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
Yeah.
JN:
Right across from the Student Center.
RG:
And that’s where all the non-Mormons were.
BM:
The College Bluebird? So this is the Bluebird Restaurant?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
39
�JN:
Yeah.
RG:
It was the same logo –
JN:
It was owned by the same people.
RG:
-- same people. Everybody ate lunch there; you had coffee there. That’s where you’d go
see Bill Sigler.
JN:
Yeah.
BM:
Huh.
RG:
A lot of big conversations sitting – you could also smoke there then.
JN:
Yeah, no smoking. Well, no actually we were allowed to smoke in the buildings at that
time, yeah. A faculty member could smoke in their own offices; that’s what it boiled
down to. Students always went outside to smoke.
BM:
If you wanted to change that and you look at what we have now, because I think what
you’re sharing is very similar to what many other people talk about. If you wanted to
bring back or move ahead with increasing that feeling of camaraderie and some of the
benefits that were in these other programs – if you ran the world, what would you do
differently? What would you suggest for that, if I can ask?
RG:
Well there’s one thing that I’ve been thinking about just recently, a couple of things that
Obama has actually suggested: volunteer service where you got credits (like the GI’s did
for the GI Bill, you know) to go to college and that sort of thing. I think that’s one of the
serious things that’s missing. We don’t have that kind of shared experience anymore in
this country. We all had a do it or something like that, or the ones that did do it got some
kind of reward for doing. So they had that sense of group and also some tangible reward
for going to college so they could do things like this.
JN:
The culture has changed substantially though. Personally, I would like to see something
like the CCC started again. I think what Ron is talking about – not necessarily a volunteer
(you get paid for it, you get paid poorly), but you do get that kind of experience.
RG:
I suppose like the Peace Corps and those types of things.
JN:
Like the Peace Corps. You know, there are a variety of things like that. But boy, our
parks and our Forest Service facilities, and all of these things are in sore need of
attention; financial attention of one sort or another, and by George this administration
could create a CCC to put people to work in these areas.
RG:
I think that’s kind of what he has in mind.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
40
�JN:
I sure hope so, that’s what he has in mind.
RG:
He made quite a play with that.
JN:
Yeah.
BM:
Well, and even being paid poorly in those positions, for many people, being paid at all
may be very important in the next few years.
JN:
Absolutely! Yeah, sure.
BM:
And being able to use those skills.
RG:
But you know, like I say, I really don’t think that stuff would have been at all available if
it hadn’t been for the GI Bill.
JN:
Yeah, I agree.
RG:
In fact, after the GI Bill dried up, that was the end of it.
BM:
And when did that dry up? When was that over?
JN:
In the ‘70s, with Vietnam, yeah. Well, you could still get credit for college in the military
(right now you can get it now), but it’s not like it used to be. It used to be you could get
the full ride and they paid you a salary and everything.
RG:
Yeah, but in those days, during the Second World War, everybody was in.
JN:
Yeah.
RG:
Everybody. I mean, you were classified, you had a draft classification. When I was 18 I
got my draft card.
JN:
There were two programs that were started. One was the education program on the GI
Bill. It was a really great program because it was a full-ride program: you got a salary,
they paid your tuition, they bought your books; they bought any fees for the college, and
so on. It didn’t cost you a penny. You could go on through and get your education that
way. And then they offered one other thing they called 52-20. And you’d get $20 for 52
weeks, and you didn’t have to go to school for it. However, if you took advantage of that
you couldn’t take advantage of the GI Bill in college. So a lot of the people that didn’t
want to get an education, they went to 52-20.
RG:
And a lot of them that did get it wouldn’t have if it hadn’t been for the GI Bill.
JN:
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
41
�BM:
Well any closing thoughts that we have on your experience? Personally or
professionally?
JN:
I had a great life. That’s all I can say. I’m 80 years old now, and I really enjoyed just
about every minute. Well, there were some things that I would’ve done differently I
suspect. I got into University Administration; in retrospect I would have been happier, I
suppose, if I’d have stayed as a teaching and research professor.
BM:
The administration you’re talking about is the Ecology Center?
JN:
It was the Ecology Center, yeah. And of course I became Associate Dean and all that sort
of stuff. And dealing with people issues mostly. Of course I did a lot on the national
scene: I became Director of Ecosystem Analysis at the National Science Foundation for a
couple of years. Then became Director of the Institute of Ecology for four or five years, I
think, I was involved in that. And that was TIE – it was basically environmental activism
and that sort of thing.
BM:
And what is T-I-E?
JN:
The Institute of Ecology.
BM:
The Institute of Ecology, okay.
RG:
That’s the one that Art Hasler had.
JN:
Yeah, Art Hasler was the first director of it and I took over from him. Art Hasler was a
BYU graduate, became professor of limnology in Aquatic Sciences at the University of
Wisconsin and a long time professor in that area. He managed to establish a really good
aquatic program there. It’s still going pretty strong.
RG:
I think that stuff thought, I could echo that, but I think a lot of it had to do with that
camaraderie though. Lifelong peers and peer group type of associations and great friends.
You fought a lot of the good, hard battles together, you know. I always like to say back to
back, you know. That’s just hard to replace. And I really don’t see that happening – not in
the same sense – not lifelong. I’ve felt that way for some time, that we don’t have that
sort of thing even available in this country anymore.
BM:
So the opportunity doesn’t even exist?
RG:
Yeah. There is no place – service used to be one of the big equalizers. Everybody grew
up doing service.
JN:
One of the faculty members – he and I stay in close email contact with each other – Jack
Schulz (and Joann Schulz). They had a similar experience at the University of Michigan.
They have a group that they call “les voyageurs” that is basically they take the name from
the French explorers in the area. They get together every year. In the wintertime they do
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
42
�snow shoeing. Long treks in the summertime they get together, as a group; the same sort
of a thing that we had then. It’s a camaraderie that started at the University of Michigan
and has lasted. Michigan State University had a summer camp at Gull Lake in Michigan.
And those people, as I understand it, do pretty much the same thing that we’re doing here
– in the camaraderie. But these are all people from back post-World War II. A lot of them
are dead or retired and/or dead now. But that sort of thing is missing; I agree with Ron
completely it is missing. You don’t see the same thing happening.
Do you see it going up at the university?
[End recording]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John
Neuhold
and
Ron
Goede
Page
43
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/36">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/36</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-11-12
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Neuhold and Ron Goede interview, 22 February 2009, and transcript
Description
An account of the resource
John Neuhold and Ron Goede discuss their experiences at the Utah State University Summer Camp (and the skills and camaraderie they gained there) and other experiences in their education, including those with the GI Bill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Goede, Ronald W., 1934-
Neuhold, John M.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Middleton, Barbara
Subject
The topic of the resource
Goede, Ronald W., 1934---Interviews
Neuhold, John M.--Interviews
Utah State University--Faculty--Interviews
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp
United States. Montgomery G.I. Bill
Veterans--Education--Utah--Logan
Forestry schools and education--United States
Utah. Division of Wildlife Resources--Officials and employees--Training
Ecology--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan
Forests and forestry--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan
Forest management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range management-Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon
Fishery management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan Canyon
Rotenone--Utah
Goede, Ronald W., 1934---Friends and associates
Neuhold, John M.--Friends and associates
Mossbacks (Club)
Logan (Utah)--History
Utah State University--Students--Anecdotes
College teachers--Utah--Logan--Interviews
Utah State University. Forestry Dept.--Research
Ecology--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Forests and forestry--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Forest management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Fishery management--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Voluntarism
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral histories
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
2000-2009
20th century
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 2
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx3fd2RonGoedeJohnNeuhold
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
22 February 2009
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2009-02-22
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/6c0494b3102cbdb8ac9feef5c11a1070.mp3
1eda16ac17d7fc51187ea7bd5dee80b6
https://highway89.org/files/original/790e78acba7c8721b35f2fb27b213c3a.pdf
06eda37c1313d5ef77ccc9238375a4d7
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
John Neuhold
Place of Interview: John’s home in Logan UT
Date of Interview: April 11, 2008
Interviewer: Lyra Hilliard
Recordist:
Lyra Hilliard
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Express Scribe Transcription Software
Transcribed by: Glenda Nesbit
Transcript Proofed by: Elaine Thatcher, Randy Williams (2011) and John Neuhold
(July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: personal background, but mostly his professional life
and education, his mentors, his work in Wisconsin, but mostly in Utah, including project
with the Deseret Livestock Company (intensive grazing), working with fisheries, dealing
with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89
through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at USU and
politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references
to the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists. Work creating and work as first
director of USU Ecology Center and participation in the Utah Democratic Party.
Reference:
JN = John Neuhold
LH = Lyra Hilliard (USU graduate student)
NOTE:
Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and
starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All
additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Tracks 1-3 are preliminary
to the interview, sound testing, etc., and not transcribed.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
LH:
This is Lyra Hilliard with the Logan Canyon Use and Management Oral History
Project. And we are here with…
JN:
My full name is Matthias Johann Werchnig Neuhold –it is different—A KA John
M. Neuhold. I was born at an address on Cherry Street in Milwaukee, Wisconsin
on May 18, 1928, my mother’s birthday. Both my mother and father were
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
1
�immigrants from Austria and they came to this country right after World War I.
And shortly after that I was born.
My earliest memory of Logan Canyon is when I came out here and I left the
University of Wisconsin to come out here to attend the, then, the School of Forest,
Range, and Wildlife Management. I drove down Logan Canyon with two friends,
Ed Harvey and Gene Holenstein. Ed was from Milwaukee and Gene was from
Rice Lake, Wisconsin. And it was on June 11th we came down from Milwaukee
with our jaws agape because we were just absolutely fascinated by the scenery.
We had come across the United States on US 30, Highway 30, the Lincoln
Highway, and deviated from it to 30 North and crossed into Utah. What was then
basically a dirt road came down Low Canyon. Saw Bear Lake again, we were
astounded and then climbed the mountain and came down Logan Canyon and
found lodging on 4th North. And in the morning when we got up there was four
inches of snow on the highway on June 12th.
My family’s land use traditions really started with my grandfathers, both by
grandfathers, who were game keepers in Austria. And my maternal grandfather
had a farm in a valley called the Valley of the Gailtal, Austria, and worked for one
of the estates. At that time it was still a royal estate. And he was a game keeper
for the royal estate. My other grandfather was killed in a mountain climbing
accident when he was serving as a game keeper; he was killed on Mt. Dobratz in
southern Austria, which is right on the Italian border actually.
The land use traditions actually continued although. My father got work as a
construction worker in the Milwaukee area. He loved to hunt and fish and the
family always was out on weekends or when he had vacations. Why, we took off
into northern Wisconsin and out there. And of course as I grew older I was farmed
out and began to work as a farm hand in southeastern Wisconsin on several
different farms.
I came out here as a student from the University of Wisconsin in the area of, I
thought initially, as forestry. And then began to deviate from that into the wildlife
area and gained my degrees in Wildlife Management, Fishery Management and
then finally Aquatic Toxicology. My Ph.D. was in Aquatic Toxicology.
My hobbies and recreational pursuits followed my father’s lead and that was
basically hunting and fishing, expanding into such things as skiing, outdoor
hiking and basically just taking advantage of the outdoors. I’m an outdoor person.
Let’s see we got through the professional part of it.
LH:
So that first day that you drove through Logan Canyon, that June 11th, coming
here to, as a transfer student, to go to school.
JN:
Uh hum.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
2
�LH:
Were the other two people with you?
JN:
Yeah.
LH:
They also were students?
JN:
Yeah. They were students. Yes. We came out here, at that time the School of
Forest, Range and Wildlife Management. We didn’t have a college at that time.
This was still called the Utah State Agricultural College. It was still called the
Utah State Agricultural College at the time. And that was in 1950. The students
that were present, we came out here to attend summer camp which was held up
Logan Canyon, where I became introduced to a variety of things.
I should point out that before I left University of Wisconsin, my mentor or
professor at the University of Wisconsin was one Phillip Whitford who was a
student of Curtis’s and whose area was ecology – plant ecology. And I worked for
him; I took classes from him of course. But then I also worked for him doing a lot
of forest surveying, identifying trees in the winter time. He was laying out
basically plots for forest growth, woodlots and farms and that in southeastern
Wisconsin. And my job was there was basically to go out and identify trees and
plot areas and measure the sizes of the trees and so on. And we were doing that
winter and summer. So I became very adept at identifying the vegetation in
southern Wisconsin. But I came out here in the summer camp. We of course were
introduced to the plants out in this area. Most of which I knew so that was not
much of a problem. And that was really a very interesting time for me.
Then when I was out here after summer camp, Dr. Ted Daniels and Ray Moore
hired me, along with Sam Jackson and Sterling Rickman, to do some plot layout
work for them on the school forest. And again their concerns up there was looking
at forest growth and the way we did that was basically to lay out the plots along a
line that we used with a chain, that we measured with a chain. And then identified
the trees at the end of, I think it was a hundred meter chain. Yeah, it was a
hundred meters. We identified the trees in that particular area. Measured them,
took their DBHs. That is diameter-breast height-and estimated the height of the
trees and the species of the trees in the area. That was my introduction to the
forest part of the area.
And then I got into the wildlife management. That’s where I did my Bachelor’s
degree was a matter of two more years of training in that area. And then my
Master’s degree was in fishery management. And then I went to work for the
State of Utah Fish and Game Department at that time. And I had, I was hired by
the Assistant Federal Aid Coordinator: Jay Udy in Salt Lake City, along with Bill
McConnell who was a fellow student of mine. And we were put to work. We,
basically what we did was design and implement the Stream and Lake Survey in
the state. And that was really a marvelous experience for me because I went to
work with crews. We hired crews. Most of the work was in the summertime when
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
3
�we could hire students to help us work on the statewide lake survey, part of it. But
it took us into every corner of the state. And our procedures were basically to do
sections of streams and lakes. We used electro fishing to find out what kind of
fish were present in the streams and we used nets in the various lakes and
reservoirs to identify the lakes. And it was the first time that an inventory was
taken of lakes and streams in the state. The most interesting part of that, well there
was a lot of interesting parts to it really. One was getting acquainted with the rural
part of Utah and the people living in those areas, which was really quite
interesting. The area, the people there, of course, were mostly all Mormons and
part of the culture, but unlike the . . . let’s say they were not as rigorous down
there as they were up here in Cache Valley or in Utah County. It was . . . you
could have fun with them. It seemed that the higher in the mountains they got, the
less strict they became.
It was something that . . . actually it was a comment that was made by Frazier
Darley who happened to be a British, English ecologist who made a tour of this
country. And when he got to Utah he was hosted by three of the state’s worst
reprobates: Lee Kay from the Fish and Game Department, Rasmussen from US
Forest Service, and Art Smith from the Utah State faculty. They guided him
around the town and he’s the guy that made the comment that he recognized that
he understood that the Mormons were strict teetotalers, but it seemed that the
higher in the mountains they went the less strict they became, and out came the
bottles. I worked with all three of those guys and they were a lot of fun. They
were all Mormons but they were backsliders basically.
LH:
So you were talking mostly down in the southern part of the state?
JN:
Oh all over the state.
LH:
All over the state.
JN:
Yeah, all over the state. We, I was with the Department for a four year period and
during which time I had finished my Master’s degree and I led that Stream and
Lake Survey for a four year period and then when I left it was taken over by
another student of mine who at that time was working for the State of
Washington. Albert Regenthall, who happened to be from New Jersey, he took
over my position here and then the other fellow that took over was Don Andriano
who was also a former student, and a fellow student, who happened to be from
Iowa originally. And he became the Chief of Fisheries here in the state where
Albert became kind of all, basically in the waterfowl area. After my four years
with the Fish and Game Department I came back to the University and did, I did
my work on my Ph.D. and finished that up in a two year period, after which the
University hired me as an Assistant Professor in 1958. And I’ve been with the
University ever since that time.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
4
�A lot of the work that I did with my students was done in on the forest. A good
deal of it was done in Logan Canyon on the Logan River. And it, well, it dealt
mostly with fishery management questions and aquatic ecology in the river. And
since my doctorate was in aquatic toxicology I did a lot of work with basically
testing the various species that we had in the area for their susceptibility to the
various different kinds of toxins. We did have at that time a lot of fluorides being
emitted to the environment by the steel mills down in Utah County and by the
phosphate fertilizer plants up in the southern part of Idaho. And a lot of the
fluorides would be part of the stack emissions which would settle down on the
watersheds and then when we did have a freshet come on through, a rain storm of
one sort or another was washed into the rivers and we’d suddenly find a lot of fish
kills. And so we tracked those questions down quite a bit. That led on to quite a
lot of work. I should maybe continue on.
A group of us got together on the campus, all faculty, and began to discuss the
things that we had in common relating to the ecology of the area. So we had
people from agriculture, and people from the, by this time we were a university so
it was the College of Agriculture and the College of Science and College of
Natural Resources. All the faculty that were involved in these lunch meetings
were ecologists or were working in ecological areas. And from that stemmed the
concept that what we needed on the campus was a thrust in ecology. So we made
a proposal to the State Legislature and to the National Science Foundation to
create an ecology program.
Initially it was the Center of Excellence in Ecology. We did have what we
considered to be a sizeable group of people that worked in the area, in all aspects
of the area, autecology and synecology. And felt that we deserved recognition as a
center. Well, the National Science Foundation didn’t consider us quite that good
yet. However, they suggested that we apply for a departmental program in
ecology, which we did. And we won that. And the same time the state allocated to
us a biennial sum of continuing support in, I think it amounted to $200,000 per a
biennium: $100,000 a year which was matched then by the National Science
Foundation. We created the Ecology Center here. And I was named the first
director of it.
And as a director of it I got into a wide variety of things. Obviously one of the
things that I was mostly concerned with was trying to build expertise that we did
lack in the area. So I managed to talk David Goodall, an Australian ecologist who
was at that time at Riverside, California, at the University of California at
Riverside, to come to this campus and with the monies that we had built the
faculty portion of the program.
We were successful then in obtaining a big grant from the National Science
Foundation in the International Biological Program. And our program here was
desert ecology. So we basically built the consortium of universities from
California, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, and Utah. We had some 60 different
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
5
�faculty members involved at these institutions. And the program was a multimillion dollar program and that’s, we started off with that. And it was a very
successful program. And we made a pretty good name for ourselves in this area.
The Ecology Center persists and it’s under, it’s now under the direction of Jim
McMahon who is the Director and who is also working to get a program that’s
dealing with, basically dealing with mapping and changing ecological structures
in the United States, or in North America, really, when you get right down to it.
And that’s been going on now since… let’s see the Ecology Center was initially
formed in 1956 I think we got our initial appropriation from the state and in 1957
we got the initial appropriation from National Science Foundation. And so on. So
we’ve produced a lot of students from this in the ecological area in, mostly in
desert ecology, but also in aquatic ecology.
A lot of my activities, because of that, became involved with the National Science
Foundation; I took a two year appointment with NSF and spent some time as a
Program Director for Ecosystem Analysis in Washington. After which I became a
consultant to the Department of Energy and their board of consultants as an
ecologist. And, I served on the EPA Science Advisory Board for a period of 22
years. Basically in the ecological arena, but I also served on their central
committee which basically guided, or I should have said guided by giving advice
to the agency concerning ecological involvement in the environment and how
their charge basic regulation of environmental aspects infringed upon the
ecosystems. So that was basically what I did until I retired.
Then when it comes to my activities here on the Cache – Cache National Forest, I
think perhaps one of the major things that I was involved in was road construction
– highway construction on US Highway 89 going through the canyon. We were
very much involved in trying to keep the engineers at bay. They were basically
concerned with putting a highway through and not really caring a hell of a lot
about what’s happening to the river and this sort of thing. So we went to work on
that and the primary worker on that incidentally was Dr. Bill Helm – William
Helm.
I suggested at one time the lower portion of the highway should have been named
after him because he did --- he did a lot of work on it. And actually was
threatened by the highway people. They got to the governor and the governor
came down and wanted to have him fired. And thank goodness the president that
we had at the time refused to accept that and the governor finally backed off. But
yeah, we were concerned with basically what was happening to the highway. And
the thing that was happening from a policy point of view in the forest was the fact
that it had been utilized basically as grazing grounds for cattle and sheep. And as
a matter of fact when in the early 50s (you can still see the trails on the side of the
mountain) the sheep were being grazed on the face here and they’d also trek the
sheep down the canyon. Now they have to, they have to truck them down. But at
that time they trekked them down and you can see the trails – trail markers that
they made walking on the face. You can still see along the face here that where
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
6
�they would, where the sheep would basically create a trail a little bit, kind of like
terracing going up and down. Here you can see some of it back here. That was all
private land incidentally. And it hadn’t been fenced at that time yet to keep the elk
and deer out of the area.
LH:
And that was private land?
JN:
Well, it was private land then but it hadn’t been fenced. So they’d come off the
forest and come on the private land and down through this area. That was only in
the fall when they’d take them off the mountain, or in the spring when they’d put
them up in the mountain. Because they’d start to unload them here and then take
them up the mountain. They’d trek them up the mountain instead of trucking. The
amount of grazing that’s gone on has really been reduced drastically. Mostly,
because the area has been basically converted over to a recreation area. So it’s
basically outdoor recreation, hunting and fishing, camping, hiking, all sorts of
things that would lead to the recreation aspect of the Forest Service’s charge.
LH:
Do you consider that a loss that it’s not so much grazing anymore?
JN:
Oh yeah. Grazing has been reduced a lot – a tremendous amount actually.
There’s, I think, only about two or three sheepherders on the mountain now and it
amounts only to some 10,000 sheep something like that where there used to be up
in the hundreds of thousands of sheep. And there’s still cattle grazing going on up
there, but it’s a small amount – relatively small amount. And in my opinion it’s
still too much.
LH:
So it’s good that there’s less grazing.
JN:
It’s good that there’s less grazing, but I think because of the change of emphasis
in the people’s use of the area, I think. I feel personally that there’s still too much
grazing going on up there. There’s also certain aspects of recreation that there’s a
little bit too much of which I disagree with; a lot of motorized access to the area.
ATVs, all terrain vehicles, and in the winter time, snowmobiles have taken over a
big portion of the area, and the people that use it, that use ATVs for example, a lot
of them are pretty responsible. But there’s always a portion of them that want to
make the place into a motorized playground so they like to drive up hills and they
gouge the hell out of things. You go up the back of Mt. Logan and you can see
where they, they just basically devil the hell out of the place. And it’s unfortunate
but that does happen. And in the wintertime of course, the snowmobilers do, like
they infringe upon the wilderness areas which you shouldn’t be doing. And
actually the current ranger in the area, I think, has been a little bit too sympathetic
with the motorized folks and not enough with the hikers and the horsemen in the
summertime. And in the wintertime the skiers, the snowshoers that I think cause a
lot less damage to the area than do the motorized vehicles.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
7
�LH:
You were talking about testing, sampling the fish in the area for the toxins from
Idaho and from Utah County. And you were talking about we’d get a big rain
storm and flushing those toxins into the water, which led into quite a lot of work.
Well, before we get there we should back up a little bit and I don’t know if you
wanted to talk more about that and what you found and if people didn’t like what
you found.
JN:
Well, one of the things that we did find was that the source of the toxins hit the
watersheds and of course rained into the river. But when they were on the
watershed they were also exposing grazing animals to the area. So we found a lot
of fluoride intoxication, for example, in cattle and in sheep, and also in some of
the wild animals: the sheep and elk and so on. And our findings basically caused
the Environmental Protection Agency and the state environmental agency to put
limits on what could be done in that particular area so that the steel mills had to
put up capture devices to keep the fluoride from going out. And the same thing
was true up here with the phosphate plants. So that you know, that was
successfully taken care of.
LH:
And when was this? When would this have been?
JN:
Oh this was back in the 1950s basically. And by the end of the ‘60s, the start of
the ‘70s, most of that had been pretty well taken care of. Fluoride intoxication
was pretty well put under control. Let’s see what other things did we have?
LH:
Well, I wonder about attitudes and changes over time. I mean, when I hear “Well
we were looking at this in the 50s and by the end of the 60s and the early 70s
most of that was under control.” And I think of just nationally, anyway, a shift.
Thinking about environmental consequences, and I’m only assuming, of course,
that there was this national shift. But I don’t know if it was as pervasive, if it took
longer a time in some areas. If people were resistant to the ideas.
JN:
Oh, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. That’s no question with that. But the
federal government, the Congress did pass some very important legislation
concerning the quality of the rivers and well, basically the waters of the United
States. And I served on the, as Chairman of the Ecological Committee for the
review of the legislation that came out in this area. The, I forget now the name of
the act. But it had to do with the quality of waters that came out. And then, and
some of the things that this act did was basically gave the charge to the
Environmental Protection Agency, the charge to regulate the quality of the waters
in the . . . For example, the Ohio River back in the 50s and 60s was basically an
open sewer, and somebody estimated that the water that was taken out of the river
for drinking purposes at Cincinnati had passed through someone’s bladder about 4
or 5 times. So there you go. The quality of the fish in the river was really
something. You know, it was basically introduced carp in a river that at one time
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
8
�held some very important types of game fishes. And when the Act was finally
enforced those game fishes came back.
So you got up there to Pittsburgh, that was basically an open sewer and you can
find black bass and muskellunge and things like that occurring now in the river.
But they had been completely eliminated from the area before. So a lot of that
work was really fairly important. And it was a substantial change in the way
people looked upon their own waters. You know. The Environmental Protection
Agency has done an awful lot in that particular area at that time. Until the Bush
administration came on and then things went to hell again.
Well, I shouldn’t say went to hell-- they became so damn lenient in allowing
continued air pollution, for example, that caused a lot of the lakes in the US
northeast in the New England states and New York to acidify. A lot of the waters
in the lakes up there acidified to the point where it killed off a lot of the plants and
animals in those waters. That was mostly a result from all of the manufacturing
activity that was going on in the Ohio River area. The Ohio belt and the steel belt
– the Rust Belt they call it. And up until the time the Bush administration came
along there was substantial progress being made in trying to clean this up. Trying
to clean up the air pollution in the area and so on. And when the Bush
administration came in, why, they relaxed a lot of the rules for emissions or
relaxed a lot or didn’t enforce them, basically is what it amounted to.
LH:
This is the current Bush administration. Not 1988, but 2000?
JN:
Yes, the stupid man that we have leading the country now [George W. Bush].
LH:
Now were rivers out here in the, I mean we talked about the Ohio River, but were
there rivers out here in the west that were . . .
JN:
Oh sure. We had the Bear River was a real open sewer for a pretty long time:
starting up in Idaho and coming on down. The Bear River is an interesting river. It
starts in Utah and comes on down and goes through Wyoming and then comes
back into Utah, goes back into Wyoming, goes into Idaho and then comes back
into Utah and ends up in the Great Salt Lake. But it starts up in the Uintah
Mountains. And so there was a lot of activity that affected the water; number one
irrigation diversion. A lot of that came apart and then grazers were allowed to hit
the river and the river banks to a point where the river became fairly silt laden. A
lot of silt was dumped into the river and that has slowly improved. The irrigation
diversion has not, but it has slowly improved other than that. And grazers have
been somewhat more careful about doing things on the river banks and in many
areas the river bank has been fenced so that the cattle don’t get to it except at very
specific areas where they could get to the water and so on.
LH:
Because of course that contributes to erosion.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
9
�JN:
Yeah. Well that was – erosion was the result. When an area became overgrazed
why, the erosion became pretty drastic.
LH:
Right.
JN:
And a lot of mud came into the rivers on that basis. We had, our graduates went to
work for the Deseret Livestock Company which is a huge operation. It’s got 325
square miles of property on the Utah; I think it’s mostly all in Utah, border here in
the eastern – northeastern part of the border. And they have a big chunk of land in
the Uintah Mountains and they have a big chunk of land out in the West Desert.
But the training that the people who went to work there got from Utah State
University, the land managers that they hired really did a lot of things to improve
things.
Where, prior to really regulating the grazing, especially in the sump area and wet
areas, the grazing basically stopped water production in those area. Now Deseret
Livestock came in and they basically ponded many of those areas so that they
have little lakes now up in many of these washes. And with a certain aspect of
controlled grazing of cattle in the area, the way they do it now is basically put the
cattle into an area and allow them to graze intensively for a very short period of
time and then move them onto another area. That allowed some of those springs
to come back up again. So where the springs have been completely dried up
because the area was compacted by the grazing, the year round grazing was
actually producing water once again. And so that sort of thing has improved
substantially.
Oh, one other thing that I should mention. This was done experimentally. Dr.
Wayne Cook who was a professor in the Marine Science Department was trying
to improve the grazing aspects of the watershed where many of the grazing areas
were overgrazed, and when they were overgrazed a lot of the undesirable plants
came in; like mule’s ear for example. Wyethia [mule’s ear] was a plant that came
in and basically crowded out the grasses that the animals would normally graze
upon. And Wayne’s idea there was to cover the area with a pesticide or with an
herbicide I should say, to kill off the Wyethia. Being one of the nasty plants, one
of the most nasty plants up there. And allow the grasses to come back in. Well,
that worked fine except that the herbicide that he put in also was washed down
into the Logan River where we used to have a really good stonefly population in
the river. The so-called salmon fly. It wiped those out almost completely. Well it
did wipe them out completely to a point where Trout Unlimited – members of a
Trout Unlimited chapter here in the valley got together and gathered stoneflies
from over in Blacksmith Fork River and reintroduced them into the river and I
think that’s been fairly successful. That was done over the last 5 or 6 years.
LH:
Wow.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
10
�JN:
Well, I mentioned the aspects that influenced policies in the Logan Canyon were
basically the force of recreation use in the canyon basically crowding out the
grazing use. That was a change of land use in that respect. There’s still grazing
going on in the canyon but it’s been much reduced.
LH:
Since, I mean gradually over the last…
JN:
Well, gradually over the last few years. Yeah. The Wellsville Mountains over
here on the west of us was really badly grazed. And we went over into the
mountains back in the 1950s, the bare ground. There was virtually no vegetation
growing on it other than the big shrubs. The oak, not oak but maple and conifers,
so on. And a lot of that was being washed away, the ground underneath that was
being washed away down into the valley bottom. Well, the Forest Service finally
cut out the grazing in the area completely. The area, it’s a very steep mountain,
and, matter of fact, in the United States it’s the steepest mountain range that we
have any place in the United States. So they cut out the grazing on the darn thing
and allowed it to recuperate. And as a matter of fact now it’s a wilderness area:
The Wellsville Wilderness Area.
LH:
Hmm. So recreation is…
JN:
Recreation, I think, is probably the most important thing that’s going on in the
area. And depending upon who the ranger is and his background that comes in to
take care of the area, why, it tends to increase more and more toward recreation. I
think the last ranger, the current ranger that we have in the area is a little bit more
lenient on motorized use in the area than I would like to see happening. They’re
supposed to, the Forest Service is supposed to open up any land use decisions to
public discussion. And they try to get away from that. Of course the
Environmental Protection Agency has a love of . . . let me call it the, well before
a policy is put into action a study has to be made of the area that is being affected
from an environmental point of view, looking at the specific impacts of it. And
coming up with a decision as to what those impacts are and if the policy is one
that would impact the environment too much, that lays the Forest Service open to
suit. And many of the suits that have been brought against the land use
management agencies, Forest Service, BLM, Indian Service, and so on, have been
brought by basically recreational use, people like the Sierra Club, people like
Trout Unlimited, various other land use agents or interest groups, have
successfully knocked down some otherwise disturbing policies that could be
taking place. So I think the agencies have become a lot more aware of the impact
that whatever policies they make does have on public lands. And try to avoid,
they try to avoid the suits as much as possible.
LH:
It’s different out here. You know just how much land is public land and who’s
land is it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
11
�JN:
Well, in the State of Utah 80% of the land in the state is public land. And that’s
you know, there’s probably more public land in the State of Utah than any other
place except Alaska.
LH:
Hmm.
JN:
[Reading question:] Have I ever tried to influence government actions?
Yes I have. I became very active as a Democrat: ran for office three times for the
State Legislature. Twice as a representative and once as a senator; and was
defeated three times. I was chair of the Democratic Party here in Cache County
for a number of years and a member of the state central committee as a Democrat.
But this is, we are, the Democrats here who are very strong on land use issues
have been defeated most of the time. But the State Legislature is really a
dictatorship of the Republican Party. And most of the land use issue is really that
is basically for land use. They would love to see the Forest Service and Bureau of
Land Management all privatized. And we’ve always been against that; that’s one
of the reasons we don’t get elected to office.
LH:
So how do we affect policy in other ways?
JN:
One example is, I was appointed to the-- can’t name the, remember the name of
the committee I was appointed to. It was a land use policy committee that looked
at the utilization of state lands. When Utah was created a state the state was
allocated, I think it was one section of land in each township. And so we have
blocks – the state has blocks of land all over the state; checker boarded basically.
And those lands were really misused. Number one a lot of them were in the
middle of federal land so that a lot of them were in Forest Service lands or Bureau
of Land Management lands and were really unaccessible to state management
control. And where they were accessible the state really blew it. The state sold off
the property in such a way that the state didn’t make much money. The monies
that were supposed to have been made off of those were supposed to go to the
school fund and support basically schools for the state.
And when I served on that particular committee to look at this and come up with
suggestions as to how this might be improved, the amount of money that was in
the school fund was only like about $600,000; whereas, in the state of New
Mexico it was almost a billion dollars. And we came up with a scheme that
allowed the state, the State Land Board to the school trust, it’s called School Trust
Lands Board now. [This] allowed them a good deal of latitude so that they could
sell or consolidate their land so it could be more easily managed. And those
proceeds that come off the sale of those lands or the utilization of them for
grazing purpose and this sort of thing, that would build the School Fund, and the
School Fund has been built now. It’s up into the millions of dollars where, over
the last 20 years. I think it was about 20 years ago that we did this thing. And that
was I think a fairly important move.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
12
�One of the things that happened on the Cache, for example, was that school trust
lands existed in the Forest Service areas that the Forest Service agreed to trade off
lands so that where the school trust land had been surrounded by school forest it
could be blocked off into a different area and the area that had been school trust
land would be reverted to Forest Service land. So in other words, there was a
trade made and they’d trade off Forest Service land for School Trust lands and
vice-versa. And a batch of trust lands was centered around the Beaver area, the
Beaver skiing area that was basically taken advantage of as a recreation area now.
So that they can develop recreation aspects of that particular area, which includes
some summer home development and so on that the monies that are made off of it
would then be reverted to the school trust lands. And that I think was a fairly
important thing that I was involved in.
We covered how the policies have been changing over the years. And I hope it
continues to change in that aspect. I think one of the things that I would like to see
happen is the Logan River and the Blacksmith Fork Rivers being considered as
Wild and Scenic Rivers. And they’re still talking about putting dams up here in
the canyon. That would be terrible if they did that. It’s a poor place to put up a
dam anyways. The area is basically Mississippi and limestone which is really
subject to water solution so that the area is undermined with caves and whatnot
that leakage from a dam built in that area would be tremendous. And put my little
house here in danger of a catastrophic flood if it should break. We are as it is,
we’re in danger of a 500 year flood, which is pretty rare. That’s why I built here.
LH:
Wow this scenic river. Now that’s been proposed, I imagine, or are there…
JN:
Well yeah, we have proposed it as a Wild and Scenic River but the Forest Service
has ignored us on that and I don’t know why. They should be really looking at it
from a recreation point of view. And that would be a recreation thing. Of course I
think the fact that it has some dams on it now, these basically run the river dams
of our generation. And the highest one is up here at the Third Dam. But the river
up above that could certainly qualify for a Wild and Scenic River. And it should
be. And there are other rivers that come into both the Blacksmith Fork and into
the Logan River.
The Right Hand Fork is another one that could be classified as wild and scenic.
Temple Fork would be wild and scenic. And that is basically being treated as
such. There’s an interesting thing about Temple Fork and Spawn Creek that goes
into Temple Fork. The Trout Unlimited has worked hard to preserve the Spawn
Creek as a spawning creek for the native Cutthroat Trout in the area. [It] has
prevailed upon the Forest Service to allow us to fence the river, Spawn Creek,
away from grazing. And when the grazers come up in there they have a rider
that’s supposed to be up there guiding the grazing. But they seldom do. They,
would like to get them down to the green grass as much as possible. And they
mash the hell out of the Spawn Creek to the point where it actually endangered
spawning in the area. It’s a tiny little creek and it’s hardly any wider than this
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
13
�room in a lot of areas and the cattle were grazing right up to the end of it, right up
to the bank and into the river, the creek itself.
And the net result was that what had at one time been grass was turned over to
various kinds of rushes that are not palatable to plant, to the cattle or the sheep
that use the area. And so we prevailed upon them to fence it and they did. That
was nice. Temple Fork is another one that the, I don’t think they’ve fenced that
one yet. But they may end up putting some kind of obstruction on it. I know they
wiped out the road that went along side of it and moved the road up on the
mountainside a little bit further away from the river, which was important because
the road was built over some pretty permeable soil and it washed into the creek. It
should not have.
[Reading Questions:] Let’s see what else is? Who were some of the most
influential teachers that I had in the area and stuff in your field.
Oh, there were quite a few actually. Starting back in Wisconsin it was Phillip
Whitford who’s now dead unfortunately. But he really perked my interest in
ecology and that’s where I became basically an ecologist even though I went to
work as a fish manager initially and then later on as a aquatic toxicologist. But the
aquatic toxicology part, well, both of them. Fish management did rely much on
the ecology of the area and so on. And the toxicology part of it was basically an
autecological approach to the populations that lived in these aquatic
environments.
Then out here, when I came out here, I think the major, one of the major men was
William Sigler who was Head of the Wildlife Department and also my major
professor in my graduate degrees and also a very close friend that we maintained
through the years until he died. He was very important. Then I had two other
mentors here on the campus that I felt were extremely important. They were not
even in the College of Natural Resources. One was Wynn Thorne who was in
Agriculture. He was an agronomist, a soil agronomist, but he was also head of the
experiment station and he was just a marvelous scientist and he was a person who,
you know, I just loved to associate with him. He was just such a neat guy. And the
other one was Dean Peterson, who was Dean of Engineering. And he and I
became very close friends and again he was a very open-minded sort of an
engineer. Although he was a Republican and I was a Democrat. [Chuckles] That
was the only difference we had between the two of us. But he influenced me a
great deal, especially in the administrative areas. Those were the three I think
most important guys that were my teachers.
Then among my colleagues there were, well there was Bill McConnell who was
my compatriot in the stream and lake survey stuff. He ended up being a professor
at Colorado State University and we maintained the long friendship and peer
relationship over the many years. He died here a couple of years ago. And then a
lot of the people that were my peers are dead. I mean they died.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
14
�Oh I should point out that I had, I put together every year a group of alumni and
we meet up in Bear Lake. We call ourselves the Mossbacks. They come from-Bill Mcconnell was one of them--from Colorado State, from Wyoming, from
Idaho, from the state of Washington, from Alaska, from Arizona, and throughout
Utah. There’re about, at our biggest number I think we had about 16 guys that
used to go to get together up at Bear Lake. I used to rent a house up there and then
some units, some motel units and then I did the cooking, and we’d sit around for
two days and in addition to renewing the acquaintances we’d always have
something to talk about. We were mossbacks so a lot of it was basically
curmudgeon type talk, but a lot of it was also dealing with, discussing various
land use policies, and in a very informal sort of a way. We’d sit around in the
living room and then talk about these things, take walks and talk about them. And
there were always some musicians in the group and we’d also play music and sing
about them. That’s still going on. I’ve got the group getting together on May 9, 10
and 11th up at the Ideal Beach again this year. And I’m preparing an Austrian
kraut dinner for them for one dinner and the other one is, oh it will be a beef
dinner of some kind.
LH:
Nice.
JN:
Breakfasts are sour dough and quiche. Sour dough pancakes and quiche. Doing all
the [cooking], you know that’s part of the old man’s thing.
[Reading questions:] Particular stories. What do we have?
Well, the critical policies that were enacted in the canyon was the creation of
wilderness areas. We had the Swan Peak Wilderness Area, not the Swan Peak, the
Gog Magog area up here and then the Wellsville area. Those were important
policy changes that took place.
Highway construction: we did have a big impact on highway construction in the
area. And with Bill Helm’s initial phase in the lower portion of the canyon and
then when they began the work on the upper portion, up above Right Hand Fork,
we were very active there to make sure that they didn’t encroach upon the river in
anyway. And the cost of building the highway was increased substantially. But we
did manage to get the beauty preserved in the canyon. So that was an important
policy thing that we were involved it that. And that was basically a citizen
originated, well, I should say a citizen, it was not official input. Let’s put it that
way. It was not agency input that was basically individuals. Although some of us
were associated with the university, it was on our own volition that we went to
work on this and tried to change the way of doing things. And we were
successful. They increased the cost of the highway but it was well worth the
expense.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
15
�LH:
JN:
It sounds as though the Legislature has always been, you called it dictatorship, I
believe earlier. Like just this Republication bastion of …
Well yeah. I am down on the Republican Party here in the State of Utah because it
is ultra-conservative. It is use oriented, development oriented, and all of this sort
of thing. And there are members of the party that are much more liberal, I should
say, they’re not as conservative. And as a matter of fact, one such, [David] Hogue
from Salt Lake City, he helped us a great deal when we were working to get a fish
disease policy board established.
That’s another story that was kind of long. A fish disease control was handled
basically by Ron Goede in the Fisheries Disease Laboratory here west of town.
And the private growers became incensed that some of the rules and regulations
that were created by the laboratory. And Ron was extremely effective in getting
this established nationally, not just as, within the state of Utah. So that various
barriers were established disallowing any diseased fishes from going from one
state to another.
And the growers here in the state of Utah, the private growers, became incensed at
that so they prevailed upon the Legislature to take that away from the Division of
Wildlife Resources and put it into the Department of Agriculture, the State
Department of Agriculture. And when they did that initially, they created a system
that was dominated by private growers and basically under the dictatorship then,
it was basically that dictatorship of the Department of Agriculture.
Well we were incensed by that and began a movement to create input by the,
continuing input by the Division of Fish and Wildlife—the Division of Wildlife
Resources into disease control issues. And so we went to work and had this fish
disease policy board created. And Hogue was very instrumental in that. He was a
Republican but he was very instrumental in helping us do that. And he got so
incensed with the conservative nature of the Republican party that he quit the
party and is now running as a Democrat. So some changes like that have taken
place in, and I’m going to send him some money so that…
But at any rate we were beset upon again by the fish controllers. Which is a
$600,000 a year business. And recreation fisheries is a $600,000, 000 a year
business here in the state of Utah. And the main bone for contention is the spread
of whirling disease, which we have been controlling very nicely in the state
because of the fish policy board as it was created. But now the private controls
prevailed upon the legislature to loosen that up substantially. And a guy by the
name of Mike Noel from Kanab, who doesn’t have any water near him at all, is
the guy that is responsible for following the dictates of the Farm Bureau in
creating a program that is not very good right now. It’s in bad shape again.
But you have these sorts of things going on politically in the state that are really
difficult to handle from a really wise land use policy. And it pervades, it goes
beyond the fisheries area. I mean it goes into virtually all aspects of land use. The
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
16
�ranchers, they feel like they have a special interest on the federal lands
surrounding their area of operation and only their opinion should count; this sort
of a thing.
Mike Noel is a rancher from down in Kanab and with the State Legislature and
he’s one of these people that does that sort of thing. When I sound bitter about
politics in the State [Utah] then it’s because I am. One of the particular stories that
I like to share, God, I’ve got so many of them.
And I pointed out that I am politically active. Or at least I was. I kind of retired
from it because I’m getting too old and my back hurts me too much to get out and
do stumping.
LH:
We’ve covered a lot. Do you want to close with a little story or a little hope?
JN:
Well, I know one of the favorite stories I like to tell is when I left Wisconsin to
come out here, before I left I went to say goodbye to a friend of mine who ran a
sporting goods store just a few blocks away, half a block away from where I lived
at the time. And as I walked in to say goodbye to him, he was talking to a
customer there who just happened to mention Utah. Well, God, when he
mentioned Utah my ears perked up since I was coming out here. And I bust into
the conversation and asked him if he was, where he was in Utah. And he said, oh
he’d just graduated from Utah State, he said. “Oh my God,” I says, “that’s where
I’m going.” And this was . . . I asked him “Is there any good fishing out in that
area?” And he says, “Oh yeah.” He says, “Right in the city of Logan,” he says,
“or the town of Logan you can walk to some very good fishing.” And he
described a spot. He says, there’s a beautiful spot with a nice fishing hole just
above a fox farm. Well, there used to be a fox farm right across the river here. The
farmer Liechty, he was raising fox and mink and the hole was right up here. And
lo and behold, ten years later I bought a lot on the property and built my house on
it. So that was from a story that occurred in Milwaukee of all places.
LH:
What luck.
JN:
What other stories. Well, a lot of the stories that we had were related. My early
stories were related with my stream and lake crews. And we used to go out and do
things. At that time the State Fish and Game Department, we were paid $2.50 a
day per diem and that was, that was to buy our lodging and food and everything
on the road. Well you couldn’t do that for $2.50. So we camped out all the time.
And we would buy groceries and we’d, and then we’d make do with that. And
we’d supplement our groceries with anything that we could catch that was edible.
Or we thought was edible. So our crews would go out and we’d bring back to
camp rattlesnakes that we’d skin and section and fry, cook, eat. Grubs that we’d
dig out of logs and we’d roast those and eat those. Locusts; we’d catch those and
fry those and eat them, that is, the grasshoppers. Oh, boiled owl. We’d catch an
owl and boil it. You know what a boiled owl tastes like?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
17
�LH:
No
JN:
Boiled owl. Yeah, we’d do all kinds of things like that. And then of course to
entertain ourselves we’d, well, one of the guys would go out and we’d rob
sparrow nests and bring the fledglings back to camp. And then train them to go
falconing with. But you falcon with, we’d go after grasshoppers. Put them on your
finger. They were a little bird. They were only about that tall; tiny little thing. And
we’d go, “Kill, kill.” It’d go after a grasshopper and then we’d go and pick up the
grasshopper from, and that worked out pretty well actually.
LH:
Did it really.
JN:
Yeah. And the other thing we had, we caught a big old golden eagle one time,
which now is illegal. You can’t do that. We caught a golden eagle that had been
stuffing himself on road kill jack rabbits. It couldn’t fly. So we put a fish net over
his head and brought him back to camp. And then we’d feed him. We’d put him
on a perch there and feed him. And we had a little sparrow hawk that shared the
perch with him. This was a little sparrow hawk – like that and a great big old
eagle like this. And the sparrow hawk, we put a piece of meat down between the
two of them. The sparrow hawk would go like this and go peep, peep, peep. And
the big old eagle looked down and go peep, peep. The little sparrow hawk would
fox out the, bluff out the eagle, got the piece of meat.
LH:
Wow.
JN:
Oh and we’d have altercations in the field. Bill McConnell and I also took on a
lake rehabilitation task that was basically done in Panguitch Lake and Navajo
Lakes in Southern Utah. Why, those lakes were taken over by Utah chub and they
were basically trout lakes. And we couldn’t, they couldn’t support trout anymore
so what we did was to go in there and reclaim the lake by poisoning out the chub.
We’d use Rotenone which is a toxin that was taken out of the cubé root of the
cubé plant in southern or in South America. It would be powdered up and then
dumped into the water with an emulsifier of some kind. And it would kill all the
fish that were in the lake. And then we’d start over by putting in just straight trout.
And in doing that, let’s see, how many times was I accosted? I was accosted three
times in the state of Utah by rifles. One guy had a pistol. And trying to get work
done and I remember one, down at Panguitch Lake, there was a spring pond that
had to be cleaned out and it happened to be on private property, and the cabin was
on it, and it was inhabited. And I went up there and the guy knew that we were
doing this apparently. And he came to the door with a 30/30 and put it in my
chest. And I had to talk like a Dutch Uncle before he finally allowed me to clean
out the pond. And the other time was on Strawberry Reservoir when I was, had a
crew out there. We were building a fish ladder so that we could access a stream
for spawning purposes. And it happened to be right through a fishing camp that
was built there. And the owner of the camp was really getting nasty with my crew
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
18
�out there. So I, I told him to layoff. And I told him if he didn’t layoff he would
end up getting a bath in the river. And he came out with his pistol and he
threatened me with his pistol. And I went over there and tried to grab him by the
collar and he turned around and ran.
LH:
So there.
JN:
I was a big guy. Well, I was a big strong guy. I was a paratrooper during WWII
and was strong as a bull so I could do a lot of things like that and get away with it.
I was a big person.
LH:
[Laughing] Wow.
JN:
Oh. There’s so many stories that I could tell. Here in the Cache most of it was
really pleasant. I hunted a lot up here and fished a lot in the stream. And of course
I had my students fishing in the streams up here, or working in the streams up
here. I had a lot of good times.
When I was an Assistant Professor here I used to, I had a laboratory in the old
part of the Natural Resources building, that is the blue panel thing that was there.
And I was the first person to move in there. And then I had a laboratory down in
the basement of that building. And a bull pen that I housed my students in and
we’d, every morning we’d get together and spend most of the morning hashing
one thing over or another. There’d be half a dozen students and myself. And it
was basically a kind of a free forum. Discussed just about everything, you know.
It was fun. We learned a lot. And the thing is that the students also, because of
that kind of a communal arrangement, partially because of it, and the fact that I
was pretty liberal about letting them do things that they liked to do, they’d help
each other out a lot in the field. The guys would get out there and help one guy up
at the, working over at Hyrum Reservoir was trying to, gill net fish out of it, so a
group would go over and help him with the gill nets. Some guys working up at
Bear Lake and they’d do the same thing you know, and so on.
And every once in a while we’d have a party; we’d hold the party up at Guinivah.
One of the guys would get a beer keg from over in Wyoming, and then we’d if we
caught a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and at this particular time you caught
a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and bring those over and we’d clean those
up and fry those and my wife Ruth would end up making a bunch of potato salad
and other wives would bring, it would be kind of a catchall of everything. We
used to have a marvelous time. And that was a little bit different than what it is
now. The students up here now tend to be pretty much independent, they don’t
tend to help each other a lot. At least that’s the way it seems to me. Of course I’ve
been away from it for pretty long. I retired 19 years ago.
LH:
Wow.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
19
�JN:
Well, retired is one way of saying it. But I went on emeritus status in 1989 and
then for the next three years I worked pro bono for the university writing
proposals.
LH:
All right.
JN:
So there you go.
LH:
They lure you back.
JN:
The reason I came out here in the first place, I guess, was kind of an interesting
one. I was president of the Forestry Club at the University of Wisconsin in
Milwaukee. And as president it was my responsibility to bring together once a
month a speaker, and one of the speakers that I brought together was, or brought
to the University was the Regional Forester for the US Forest Service in that area,
in the central part of the United States. And after he gave us a talk about how nice
it is to work for the Forest Service and all that sort of stuff, I took him aside and I
said “Where would you suggest would be a good place to go to school in the
forestry or the natural resources area?” And he said, “Well, you ought to consider
my alma mater,” he says, “Utah State.” And he says of the nine regional foresters,
seven of them are Utah State graduates, and the head of the Forest Service in
Washington is also a Utah State graduate.
So I said, “My God.” With that kind of a reputation I’d come out here and go to
school. And I did. Well actually it was a very tiny school. At that time it was, let’s
see. Faculty members, in the Wildlife Department there were three faculty
members. In the Range Science Department there were three faculty members,
and in the Forestry Department there was one, two, three, four faculty members.
And so it was. And then there was a Dean of the College: Dean Turner (Louis
Turner). That has grown into, oh my goodness, I don’t know how many faculty
members we have now, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 or 50, something
like that. And you know a big student component. Actually we were the first
college to produce a doctoral student in the entire university.
LH:
Really?
JN:
Kim Wolfe was the first Ph.D. And he was in the aquatic, he was one of Dr.
Sigler’s students. Bill McConnell was the second Ph.D. earner and I was the third.
And this was in the entire University. So we kind of were pioneers in developing
the graduate program at Utah State University. Oh I should say another mentor of
mine was Stewart Williams who was the Dean of the Graduate School at that
time. He and I became really good friends, and he was a geologist and I’ve always
had a kind of an abiding interesting in geology of this particular area in particular.
And so he took pride in the fact that he was Dean when the first PhDs were
offered by Utah State University and they were offered in our department.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
20
�LH:
That’s nice.
JN:
High jinks; had a little student high jinks. We did; a lot of students here. But I did
my undergraduate work here. My last two years on it, sophomore and senior as an
undergraduate student. And we always had a battle between the engineers and the
foresters. We called ourselves the foresters at that time. And we’d play all kinds
of high jinks on each other. The engineers who used their engineering talent at
one time turned a bunch of chickens and sheep loose in the old forestry building,
which is now gone, it’s no longer here. And then they bricked up the entrance of
it. This was during the night. And we came there in the morning. We had to break
down the brick walls to get into the building. And then found it was loaded with
sheep and chickens.
And then of course we did the same thing to them. Some things were kind of
cruel. Like the cruelest thing that we did, I wasn’t involved in that because I
couldn’t have done it. But they took a horse in the engineering building; an old
nag that was over at the mink farm, and then killed it in the men’s room. They had
to drag a dead horse out of the building. But those things don’t happen anymore.
LH:
Oh!
JN:
So you got enough?
[Reading question:] Oh, books or writings that influenced the land use.
LH:
Oh yeah.
JN:
Well of course there was always Leopold’s.
LH:
Sand County?
JN:
Well no. He wrote initially a book on wildlife management. [Game Management]
That was the important book actually. The artsy book was his Sand County
Almanac. He did another one that was finished by one of his sons. Moon River
[Round River] I think it was called.
LH:
Oh yeah.
JN:
That was one book that influenced me a lot. Then there was a book on animal
ecology. There were not very much written about ecology at that time. The book
on plant ecology by Üosting from Duke University was available. There was a
Weber and Clements that was written by Weber at the University of Nebraska and
Clements who was part of the Ally, Emerson, Park, Park, and Schmidt book that
was written on animal ecology out of the University of Chicago. And that was
about it.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
21
�Oh, there was another thing that I did in ecology. I looked into the origins of
ecology on the Utah State University campus. And that was, I looked into our
archives and wrote a little piece on the origin of ecology. [Ecology Center review
documents: USU Special Collections 17.12:63 NO. 20] It turned out that there
was a professor that was hired from Cornell University in 1902 that taught the
first course in ecology on the campus. And it was fairly short lived because he
wasn’t here that long. I think he was here only about three or four years. And then
when he left the course was no longer taught until I think the late teens, when, I
can’t recall his name right now. But he started, he was in range management and
he started and taught a course in plant ecology. And that kind of persisted, I think,
through the years until we got the first dean and then the school of Forest, Range
and Wildlife Management was created in 1926. And the dean of that school later
on became the Chief Forester of the United States. And he was followed by Ed
Cliff who was from Heber City and a graduate of this institution who became the
Chief Forester. (He was the Chief Forester when the Regional Forester told me
that I was, or that this was one of the best places to come because of the
reputation of the Regional Foresters and the Chief Forester.)
And Ed Cliff was an interesting guy. He was a Mormon; he was from Heber City,
Utah, and graduated from this institution when he became the Chief Forester.
Well, he was a forest ranger here first. And he, he and his wife spent their
honeymoon at the Forest Service cabin at Tony Grove. The cabin is still there.
And so actually it’s a historical site now. And it’s still active. It’s still being used
as a, by the Forest Service as a base of operations of one sort or another. But it
was a very primitive thing, you know. They had a wood stove in there that served
as a cook stove, these big wood ranges. When he [Ed Cliff] came back and looked
at, when he was Chief Forester of the United States, and he came back to visit the
ranger [up at Tony Grove] that was present at the time [thinking of his name]. (Oh
god, he’s retired down in New Mexico now. I can’t remember his name either
again.) But anyhow, he happened to be the ranger out there and they had replaced
the wood stove with a gas operated, propane stove and so on. [Chuckles] And
when Ed came out there and he saw this and he said, “That’s unmentionable. You
should not have a gas stove. There’s got to be a wood stove.” And he ordered
them to take the gas out and put the wood stove back in. So it’s still there. It’s a
wood stove and if you want to cook back there you have to cook on the wood
stove.
LH:
That’s awesome.
JN:
There were a lot of colorful people that came out of this institution. Well, many of
them worked here initially as, related to the forest, or they worked on the forest.
In the late 1920s and through the ‘30s the CCC, the Civilian Conservation Corps
was really active here. And a lot of the people that became well known in the field
were part of the CCC operations. Ken Wolfe who earned his first, was the first
Ph.D. granted out of the Utah State University was a bad boy in Chicago. See, he
was from Chicago. He was a bad boy. He was given the choice by the judge to
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
22
�either go to jail or join the CCC and he could come out here and do some work
out here. So he opted to come out here. Well, he not only came out here and went
to work for the CCC, he met his wife out here, got married and when he got into
the service he became a Lieutenant in the service, discharged. And when he was
discharged he came here and earned all three of his degrees here at Utah State
University. And he became a world-renowned virologist, especially in the aquatic
area. He worked out of Leetown, West Virginia [Leetown Science Center]. Wrote
a number of books on virology and was the first to develop a cold water cell line
that they could deal with in the laboratory.
LH:
The bad boy from Chicago.
JN:
The bad boy from Chicago. Yeah. When I started off school here back in the late
40s we were all, all of these students were returned veterans. And it was quite a
different bunch. They all became, upon graduation they all achieved leadership
positions one way or another in the field. We had Bud Phelps was one my costudents, he became Director of the Fish and Game Department here in the state
of Utah, and then later on was Director for Ducks Unlimited.
And Don Smith was a football player here. And he became Director of the Fish
and Game Department here. I think most of the directors of the Fish and Game
Department that we had here were graduates of ours. But then we had [graduates
that became] Directors of the Fish and Game Departments in many other places.
Iowa was another one that was one of our graduates. Ohio was another one that
was one of our graduates. Nevada was . . . he was a graduate. He was a football
player and Director of the Fish and Game Department in Nevada and one of our
graduates. And they had a relatively big impact on the development of educated
natural resource managers in the State.
Up until World War II most of the resource managers that we had in the United
States were basically patronage type people. They’d come up through the ranks as
Fish and Game wardens of one sort or another, or when they went to work for the
Forest Service, why, they were basically field hands to begin with and so on. But
once the programs got started and they started educating people in the scientific
way of managing the resources . . . why . . . A great influx came right after World
War II when the veterans came back and the GI Bill allowed them to get an
education in this particular area. So the field, the Fish and Game Departments, the
Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, all of those Federal agencies
and state agencies became permeated with our graduates. And we were, Utah
State was one of the biggest institutions developing these. There were other
institutions that were doing the same thing but I think as far as really making an
impact early on, Utah State was probably one of the biggest contributors in this
particular area. So that was nice.
LH:
That is nice.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
23
�JN:
It was nice to be part of it, too.
LH:
Yeah. Well.
JN:
That was kind of rambling but…
LH:
I like rambling. I’m sure I get the good stuff. Well it’s all good. Thank you so
much. I think we’ve certainly touched on all this. This is such a rich, rich
interview. Thank you.
JN:
Well, I’ll be happy to go over any part of it with you and clean it up somewhat if
you want me to.
LH:
That would be great. And, well, I don’t know that I’ll be doing the transcribing. I
hope to a little bit. But no matter how it happens you’ll get a CD so you can listen
to yourself and the transcript as well.
JN:
Okay. And make necessary changes or additions.
LH:
Yeah. Sure
JN:
Sure.
LH:
Thank you. Well then I will sign off of this. It is nice. It is 11:00 and closing the
first interview with John. Thank you.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
John Neuhold
Page
24
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/328">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/328</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-10-08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Neuhold interview, 11 April 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
The interview includes some personal background information, but mostly discusses John Neuhold's professional life and education. He also talks about his mentors and work in Wisconsin, but mostly his work in Utah, including a project with the Deseret Livestock Company, working with fisheries, dealing with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at Utah State University and the politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Neuhold, John M.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hilliard, Lyra
Subject
The topic of the resource
Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Neuhold, John M.--Interviews
Neuhold, John M.--Family
Neuhold, John M.--Career in Ecology
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Plant ecology--Research
Fishery management--Research--Utah
Lake ecology--Research--Utah
Stream ecology--Research--Utah
Utah State Agricultural College--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews
College teachers--Utah--Logan--Interviews
Utah State University. Ecology Center--History
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction
United States Highway 89--Design and construction
Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon
Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon
Recreation areas--Utah--Logan Canyon
Environmental toxicology--Research--Utah
Water--Pollution--Law and legislation--United States
Water quality--Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Public lands--Utah
Environmental policy--Utah
Neuhold, John M.--Friends and associates
Fishes--Diseases--Law and legislation--Utah
Utah State University--Students--Anecdotes
Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Logan River (Utah)
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Rich County (Utah)
Uinta Mountains (Utah and Wyo.)
Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Wellsville Mountain Wilderness (Utah)
Navajo Lake (Utah)
Panguitch Lake (Utah)
Spawn Creek (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah)
Right Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6
Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx4fd3JohnNeuhold
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
https://highway89.org/files/original/e216fd8d9d7ec80c96e6399de530adce.jpg
8c4e81daab18acdffdf351026f278096
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Digitized by: Utah State Archives and Records Service
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
4 inches x 5 inches
Height
Height of digital item in pixels
3560
Width
Width of digital item in pixels
2800
Scanning resolution
Resolution in DPI
800
Colorspace
RGB or Grayscale, for example
Grayscale
File Size
Size of the file in bytes.
1690517 Bytes
Conversion Specs
Scanned by Utah State Archives and Records Service using Epson GT-30000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (800 dpi); display file is JPEG 2000.
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2013-08-29
Purchasing Information
Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item.
To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnston Hotel road sign in Sevier County
Description
An account of the resource
Scenic 89 tourism road sign photographed along Highway 89 in Sevier County as part of a project by the State Department of Highways to document Utah highways signs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Utah State Department of Highways
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sevier County (Utah)
United States Highway 89
Roads--Signs
Advertising
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Photographs
Black and white photographs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-12-22
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Milepost 150.28 (Utah)
US 89 (Utah)
Sevier County (Utah)
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1965-1975
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State Archives and Records Service, Outdoor Advertising Sign Inventories, Series 959, Box 8. Folder 2.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Utah State Archives and Records Service
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
StillImage
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
00959008002_JohnstonHotel.jpg
Advertising and Marketing
Road Signs
Transportation