1 50 5 https://highway89.org/files/original/81ffaead36a5dcffd498a1d2eea849e1.pdf 23c522720a815305c3176a2cdb2fd9d1 PDF Text Text � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-10-16 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 561207 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Henry Blood to F.P. Champ, July 29, 1936 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Utah Governor Henry Blood to F.P. Champ of the Cache Valley Banking Company, reiterating the Governor's interest in having the section of Highway 89 between Logan and Garden City completed early. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Governor (1933-1941 : Blood) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Champ, F.P. Subject The topic of the resource Traffic engineering Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Highway 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1936-07-29 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan (Utah) Garden City (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, State Agency Correspondence, Series 14207, Box 9, Folder 8 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Governor Blood State Agency Correspondence collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/14207.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/14207.html</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 14207009008_LoganGardenCityHighway https://highway89.org/files/original/37363d7fb42497d29eb3484563159082.pdf c9dba06fc11125791929b6bed0f2414b PDF Text Text � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please contact the Utah State Archives History Research Center at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/index.html</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by : Utah State Archives and Records Service Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2014-10-16 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 812666 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Correspondence from Henry Blood to E.E. Howe, July 29, 1936 Description An account of the resource Correspondence from Utah Governor Henry Blood to State Road Commission Chairman E.E. Howe concerning the diversion of forest highway funds allotted for construction of the road between Logan and Garden City to construction efforts along the Sevier-Summit-Glendale section of Highway 89. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Governor (1933-1941 : Blood) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Howe, E.E. Subject The topic of the resource Traffic engineering Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Roadside improvement--Utah--Sevier Highway 89 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Correspondence Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1936-07-29 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Logan (Utah) Garden City (Utah) Glendale (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Sevier County (Utah) Kane County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1930-1939 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State Archives and Records Service, State Agency Correspondence, Series 14207, Box 9, Folder 8 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Governor Blood State Agency Correspondence collection can be found at: <a href="http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/14207.html">http://archives.utah.gov/research/inventories/14207.html</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Utah State Archives and Records Service Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Utah State Archives, phone (801) 533-3535. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 14207009008_EEHoweCorrespondence.pdf https://highway89.org/files/original/0057aec5e49ff98be54dc955f758ee12.mp3 475bd1becfcac6cbe06837883a6c651a https://highway89.org/files/original/2ff5831c9365bee55920e58d6c6717b0.pdf 03f6ac5e6ec24f8075f3f1f3008b96e4 PDF Text Text LAND USE MANAGEMENT TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee: John K. Hansen Place of Interview: Garden City, UT Date of Interview: 12 March 2009 Interviewer: Recordist: Barbara Middleton Barbara Middleton Recording Equipment: Radio Shack Tape Recorder, CTR-122 Transcription Equipment used: Transcribed by: Transcript Proofed by: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Susan Gross Randy Williams, 6 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012 Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah on his families’ cow and sheep operation, including yearly cycle of ranching: haying, feeding cattle and sheep, moving animals, protecting lambs from predators; his earliest memories of Logan Canyon; three years in the South Pacific during World War II; 18 years in highway construction with WW Clyde and Company in Springville, Utah; returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch. Reference: BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment & Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources) JH = John Hansen (Interviewee) NH = Noreen Hansen (Interviewee’s wife) BH = Bonnie Hansen (Interviewee’s daughter) NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets. TAPE TRANSCRIPTION [Tape 1 of 3: A] BM: I’m going to watch the tape every now and then. This is Barbara Middleton and we are here in Garden City. And this is tape 1, side A. And we are here in the home of John -- Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  1   �JH: BM: John K. Hansen. John K. Hansen. And we are just getting started on the first interview with John. So I am going to have him start off with talking about when and where he was born and a little bit of his background. John. JH: Okay. I was born right here in Garden City, about a mile west of Garden City in my grandfather’s home. The old home still stands there. That was August the 16th, 1924. As I say, that home still stands there. As you go up the highway toward Logan from the last of the service stations, as you begin to climb the hill it’s on your left down off the grade. You can still see that white home down there, it’s still there. BM: So this is Highway 89? JH: Yeah, uh-huh. BM: Up the canyon, okay. JH: Yeah. And I still have a cousin and his wife living there. My grandparents moved out and moved over to Logan at the outbreak of World War II. And they owned a sheep ranch there. They had three sons that worked on that ranch and they all had different things to do. After I grew up enough to be of much help to them I used to help with the haying and with one thing or another. Most of my life was spent right here where we’re sitting except for I spent nearly three years in the South Pacific during World War II. That was from one end of the Pacific to the other, with a few stops in between. Then I spent 18 years in highway construction with WW Clyde and Company over down in Springville, Utah. Then I came back here when my brother had passed away; my dad had been gone for several years and had this ranch here. When my brother passed away he was running the ranch for mother. So I had to come back and I had to quit construction and come back here to help her out. And I’ve been here ever since. I don’t know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing! [Laughing] JH: Today, with the way things are why there just isn’t much in farming and ranching. There isn’t anything here in Garden City anymore. There is so much development; there isn’t what you could call a stable farm or ranch here that would be in full production, like there used to be. BM: So let’s talk a little bit about that, in terms of you started out with sheep ranching and haying and of course have seen a lot of change. Would you go back and talk a little bit about the early years of that sheep ranching and what the haying was like? JH: Yeah. BM: And how old were you at that time? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  2   �JH: Well, when I got old enough to be much help in the hay fields – the hay at that time was all put by a horse plow, with horse drawn mow machines and hay rakes and everything else. They just started using overshot stackers. Well, that was quite a job to work on the pull-up with a team of horses. BM: That’s where the horses --? JH: Yeah, the horses pulled it up on what they call an “overshot stacker” and I had the job of driving the team to put the hay on the stack. BM: So it was a team of two horses that pulled out? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. A regular team. BM: Okay. JH: And then I had the job also of raking up the scatters which was a job for me because you didn’t trip the hay rig with your foot like you did later on, you did that with a lever. And sometimes in heavy hay that lever would just about yank you right off of the hay rig. [Laughing] JH: And I wasn’t very big anyhow, so [laughing]. But that was my job to start out with. BM: You know, I have seen that. And that’s a pretty quick operation. JH: It is. BM: You had to be fast. JH: You have to know what you’re doing and if you’re on that pull-up on the stacker that reaches the top, you can tip the stacker right over on top of that hay stacker over on top of them stacking hay, if you’re not careful. But they usually had it chained down with stakes driven in the ground to keep that from happening. But you had to hit that hard enough, let your team to hit that hard enough up at the very top so that hay would shoot off, and then you would back your team up just a little bit and let that momentum carry the stacker head back. BM: And how high did you build these hay stacks? JH: They were up about, some of them 18-20 feet. BM: So this hay was stored out in these big piles, and just left open to the rain and such? JH: No, no. We stacked all of our hay right here – we had a big field out here in the south of town where we had our wild meadow hay. And all the hay that was in here we stacked Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  3   �right here behind the barn. Generally we would have about four stacks of hay – real good, big stacks of hay when we’re done. And then it would be fenced in. Out in the meadow we did the same thing. We had stockyards built out there, because if you didn’t you always fed your livestock out where the hay was, so you had to fence those yards in or you wouldn’t have any hay left! BM: [Laughing] So you had these stacks at two different places? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Out here, when are you going out and feeding your animals? Is it once a day? JH: Ordinarily we always fed our cattle and sheep twice a day, both of them. BM: And how do you get out there? JH: In the wintertime with a hay rack and a team and sleighs, and you went out and opened the gate and drove in beside your haystack and pitched a load on and hauled it out in the field and strung it off to the animals. Whatever you were feeding: sheep or cattle; you never fed the two of them together. BM: Hmm. And why not? Why won’t you feed them both together? JH: Because the cattle chase the sheep off. BM: Oh, okay. JH: They would eat – they were just too rough on the sheep. And by the time in the wintertime, why your ewes would be getting heavy with lamb, and it was just too dangerous. So you fed them separate. BM: Um-hmm. So you have them in pastures, fenced in different pastures – JH: Um-hmm, yeah. BM: And you have to get the sleighs into both of these pastures – JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: To come and feed them. Were the animals waiting for you? JH: You bet, standing there at the gate [laughing]. And one thing that I haven’t saw in this valley for years – all while I was growing up as you remember – well our winters, we had snow over here that you couldn’t see the fences. BM: Oh, wow! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  4   �JH: You couldn’t see the fences. A lot of times we would just drive our teams and sleighs right over the fences and go right out to the stockyard. And I don’t know why, but the stock just stayed there – you would have thought they would have followed the sleigh roads back. BM: Right. JH: But they didn’t. They stayed pretty – that’s why we fed them twice a day (that’s one reason why). The other reason why, my dad always had a lot of consideration for his animals and it fell off on me too. You know, in bitter cold weather an animal needs to have some feed for it in the mornings – just like you want to have suppertime – BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay, so did they. And they did better and it didn’t take as much hay either. You would think so, but it didn’t. It didn’t take all that much hay extra. In the springtime then, your animals are ready to go out on the range when it comes time to go and if feed was a little short (which it generally was), why then they could get by a whole lot better until the feed began to come up better so they could get a mouthful, you know? BM: Um-hmm. JH: We always came in with a top weight on our lambs and our calves. And your animals do so much better and they didn’t resent you and you could work them a whole lot better, which just made the work so much easier for the persons that are working them. In the past I have worked for other cattlemen where they fed their cows whether they need it or not. Come calving time you had a mighty tough time with the calving process. The poor old cows had an awful time. And you would pull more calves than you could shake a stick at. BM: Hmm. JH: And the same way with the sheep. In other words, a weak animal is nothing to have. So we always got by that way and did just fine. And that’s what we did when I took this place over, come back to it. We didn’t have the sheep – my dad sold the sheep when the War came on. BM: Um-hmm. Now before you go into that – you just went through almost a whole year of your cattle-sheep cycle. Let’s break that down a little bit, because there are some interesting things there. To me, as far as having them contained and then you’re getting them out onto what I assume was the Cache National Forest? JH: Well, we could always go on the forest on the first day of July. And then on the tenth day of September, your time was up and you came off the forest. And then you had to have a spring and fall range to go with that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  5   �BM: Now, did the cattle go one place and the sheep go another? JH: Yeah. Well, pretty much so, pretty much so. In the earlier years, back in the Depression years when things were really tough, why they had the sheep and the cattle pretty much together. They just put them out – with the sheep, they were herded. If you didn’t, you would wreck that grazing land (wherever it was – on the forest or your own), you would wreck that grazing land right quick. BM: Um-hmm. And is that because of them eating down close to the ground? JH: Yeah, um-hmm, yeah. BM: Okay. JH: So that’s one thing I would like to stress if it’s your dealing you say with people who hear about these things and without a doubt you too yourself have heard about the old sheep and cattle wars where the cattlemen wanted to run all of the sheep out of the country, and vice versa. And they couldn’t get along. Well my dad never did put his herd out in the morning in the same place they grazed yesterday. BM: Okay. JH: And he would go back over that and he would evaluate what those sheep took yesterday because different feed, and the sheep will get on a barren hillside with nothing but white gravel on that thing, and feed for hours at a time! And you’d wonder, “What in the world are they eating rocks for?” So you ride your horse over there and sit there and watch for an hour what they’re doing. And then you’re going to get off the horse and walk over there and move that sheep out of the road – our sheep are just about as gentle as they could be – and here is a rock about that big around that was sticking up and all around it was gray moss. That’s what they were eating! A cow would never eat that, so the sheep man he always got blamed for dropping out the forest. And some of them did, don’t get me wrong. Because there were some men who overgrazed in other words, and that’s one thing I never saw my dad do or my grandfather. BM: Um-hmm. So your grandfather and your dad both started that business and you were the third then, in your family that continued that? Third generation? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. I didn’t do sheep. Like I say, when World War II came along, Dad sold the sheep because he figured my older brother would be going into the service right quick. I was a junior in high school, at that particular time, and he didn’t figure that he could get along with me, with the sheep. And him trying to be down here and get the irrigating done and everything else that goes with a ranch, you know. BM: So then he became just a cattleman? JH: So he took the money and went and bought cows instead. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  6   �BM: Um-hmm. JH: And he bought himself one heck of a job! [Laughing] Because the cattle that he bought were wild, dirty stinkers! BM: Really? JH: Yes, they were! I’ll tell you what! BM: Where did you go to buy cattle at this time? I mean are you talking about buying cattle in the valley? JH: Yeah. BM: So there are other people that are selling off their herd? JH: Yeah, well the cattle he bought was right down there in the same town – BM: Ovid. Okay, Ovid, Idaho. JH: And the man he bought those cows from – his last name was Olsen. They were the wildest bunch of miserable animals you’ve ever seen! BM: So how did you get them here? How did you bring them from Ovid? JH: They trucked them up here. BM: Okay. JH: Yeah, they trucked them. NH: And the kids down there were the same! [Laughing] BM: So when you got the cattle on the land here, how were they wild? JH: Oh, you just have to be around a sheep outfit, but never had any cattle. You’ve got sheep curls about that high, and they was nothing to a cow! They would just go through her like a Sherman tank! [Laughing] JH: Down here on this lake shore below us, clear along here for oh, half a mile – just a solid line of sheep sheds where they lambed all the sheeps. Now my dad’s brother had a herd, and they ran them together – so that’s where they would lamb them out down here in the Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  7   �early spring. They would start lambing right around the 15th of April and that’s where they would do it. BM: Was there a certain weather condition that they needed? JH: The warmer, the better; the warmer the better. And, the drier the better. BM: Is it warm here at that time of year. JH: It was pretty warm. NH: It was! [Laughing] BM: What’s the temperature April 15th? What do you remember? JH: Back then? It was kicking right around 40 degrees. BM: And snow? Did you have snow? JH: Yeah, there would still be a little snow, not much snow. There would still be a lot of ice on the lake. BM: Okay. JH: That was one of my jobs when we had the sheep. I’d come home from school and hook up a team of horses and go around – this is all slough down here clear over to my uncle’s place. I had to go around to his gate and back around with my team and hook them on to a sled. We had four open top, 50 gallon barrels on there and there is a good spring right below the sheds. I’d go down there with a bucket – 5 gallon bucket – and fill those barrels full. And I’d come up and go through those sheep sheds and water the sheep at night. BM: Oh! So they were in and they were waiting for you to shear them? JH: Well, they generally didn’t shear those sheep until, oh around the 10th of June – it was just too cold. BM: Oh, okay. JH: My dad and his brothers – spring and fall range was over on this side – you’ve seen where that little segment of “R” on top of the hill? BM: Um-hmm. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  8   �JH: Well, their spring and fall ranges were immediately below that. BM: Okay. JH: There were about four sections of land in there that the two of them had together and they ran on, that they homesteaded. So that’s where they take them over after they got through lambing out, why they would put the two herds together and then they would trail them over. It would take them about three days to get them over there with all them young lambs in the bunch. BM: And what are they trailing them through? What’s the landscape like? Is it dry at that time? JH: Yeah. It’s pretty dry. You would be getting spring rain storms, you know, off and on quite a bit. Most generally it was pretty nice weather. BM: Okay. And then, is that where you sheared them then? JH: Yeah, we sheared them over there. BM: Okay. So if your job was shearing, were you actually – JH: My job was right here with my mother. We had five or six milk cows. BM: Ahh. JH: And I had to go them night and morning and help her milk them milk cows. NH: [??] [Laughing] BM: What time did you get up for that job? JH: Oh, we’d get up right around five o’clock on average. From the time I’d get those milk cows milked and get them took out to pasture, why it was getting along towards eight o’clock. And then when I come home at night, I had to go get them again and help her milk them again! [Laughing] BM: That’s a busy job. That’s another regular kind of thing you have to do every day. JH: Yeah. It’s an every day process – there’s just no getting away from it. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  9   �BM: So then when it was shearing time, in between the milking of the cows were you down there helping them with the sheep shearing? JH: Nope, no. That was all done across the lake over there on the east mountains. I just had to stay here and help her and help her plant the gardens and stuff like that. BM: Sure because the weather was planting time. NH: Did you help lamb the lambs, when they were down -- ? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: So tell us about that – so that’s right across the street here. JH: Yeah. BM: Okay, tell us about the lambing. JH: Oh, that was a terrible job! [Laughing] That was a clock around job. You always had a night shift to go on. They would hire a couple of guys and most generally, why they were my dad and my uncle’s nephews that just lived around the corner there and they was both married. They’d come over and one of them would come to work just as it was beginning to get dark at night. And they would always pull a sheep camp down there so they’d have a place to stay in all the weather. And then the other one would come over and relieve him right shortly after midnight. And he would go until like six o’clock in the morning – most generally five or four o’clock my dad was down there. And they’d hire those guys to help them out that way. And there was a job of having to feed those sheep down there off the hay rack. Those big corrals we had down there – we had to board up the side of the wagons clear to the ground so the ewes and the lambs couldn’t get under and get run over. And I fell under that job more times than not! [Laughing] That was first thing in the morning, but when I come home from school – lo and behold them milk cows were still staring me in the face! BM: So when are lambs typically born? Are they often night, or? JH: Anytime, any day. You could always tell when the pressure dropped you would get a bunch of lambs. If the pressure dropped, why you’d have lambs all over. That was another little job I had to do. They had a sheep boat it was just on a pair of skids (like that water skid I was telling you about), only they had a little box on that thing. I would go out through the corrals and generally either dad or my cousin or my uncle would go along with me and we would gather up the lambs and ewes and put them in that thing. We had a lot of space where we could put the ewes and the lambs in a pen to theirselves. And then you had to constantly shift them and make room for the next go around. It was quite a deal. And then if you weren’t watching real close, you could get those lambs mixed up and then boy, there was all heck to pay! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  10   �[Laughing] BM: A lamb can lose it’s mom? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Huh. How do they know their mother? JH: They have their own smell, their own scent. Each one has their own scent. And that’s how the mothers can tell their own lambs apart. BM: So when the mother gets sheared two months after the lamb was born, the lamb still knows mom because she still smells the same even though she might look a lot different. JH: Um-hmm, yep. Oh yeah! That don’t bother them lambs. They know where that bottle of milk’s at! [Laughing] BM: Don’t lambs have twins? JH: Yes. BM: And triplets sometimes? JH: Twins and triplets and sometimes four lambs – I’ve seen them have four lambs. But I hated to see triplets, I just hated to see triplets. Because mama most generally didn’t have the milk for them. BM: Oh! JH: So you would have to go through the herd and find a mama that only had one lamb. And then the trick was to get mama to take that lamb. And until you could get her milk going through that lamb, she wouldn’t have nothing to do with them. BM: So how do you do that? JH: You just tip the ewe up on her hind end and you suckle that lamb until he filled up and then you put them back in the pen together. And if she got mean with him, why you’d have to put him in a little side pen next to her. And then you always let that little lamb get just a little on the hungry side – there was tricks just like there is in all trades [laughing] – you just had to be able to figure out, you know, what was going on and understand your animals. So you would let him get good and hungry and then you would take her lamb (because she had one lamb), you would take her lamb and put him over in that pen with the bum lamb. Then when you come back to feed those lambs, then odd lamb (to her), he’s hungry enough to hang up the bottle and so is her lamb hungry enough. So then you had to get a hold of that ewe and make her behave herself, and put a lamb on each side. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  11   �And every time she tried to reach around her to bump that spare lamb, why you just popped her on the nose and let her behave herself. BM: So how many like, triplets did you have in the season? That’s a lot of work! JH: That is a lot of work! Thank heaven there wasn’t too many of them! [Laughing] [End Tape 1: A; Begin Tape 1: B] BM: Tape 1, side 2. And we’re continuing with the sheep and the bum lamb and getting it to take to a different mother. JH: Um-hmm, yeah. Okay, so you made her behave herself and made her keep standing up so both lambs (on each side) could suck. A mother will always turn around and stick her nose right back under that lamb’s tail. That’s how she identifies that lamb, is by her milk going through that lamb. So that’s why then once you can get her to behave herself and get enough of her milk going through the bum lamb. And then if she don’t want to stick her nose around there and recognize him, you bend it around her and make her do it. You could save little lambs that way. BM: How do you bend a sheep around? I mean aren’t these sheep pretty big? JH: Yeah. The average of my dad’s sheep – they were big old Columbia ewes – and they weighed around 150 pounds. And I’ll tell you what, you’ve got a job to do. BM: And how old were you at the time? JH: Oh, I guess I was about 14 when I would help them down there. Then I would go through their corrals with them and help them that way when I could. In later years here I had a little herd of my own here on the place. I would lamb them right here and sheared them out right here. So I knew all about how to handle them. BM: Now one other thing, before you go on to that: you were mentioning that sometimes the mother didn’t take to the – what did you call it? Bum lamb. JH: Yeah. BM: So there were times when you had to supplement and feed yourself. JH: Yeah. BM: Could you tell us a little bit about that? JH: Well, if you was worth a hoot, you could make her take that lamb. BM: So it was pretty successful? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  12   �JH: Yeah, it worked fine, it worked real good. We made that ewe stay in that pen until she took that lamb, until she let that lamb suck. And then we would put her out in the bigger pen with a few more ewes and their lambs and watch her, until you knew that she had the lamb, she recognized the lamb and she would feed the lamb. And she would keep track of it. But it was all the other lambs that came along like that – whether it was triplets and you didn’t have any place to put two of them – why you bottle fed them. We’d keep them around, we’d bottle feed those little beggars all summer. BM: Is this cow milk your? JH: Just cow milk, yep. Just cow milk. [Laughing] NH: It wasn’t that much of a job! [Laughing] JH: The only problem I had, you would have a bum lamb and a bottle – those little beggars, they liked to get a hold of that nipple on the end and they would just start chewing on that and sucking on that, pretty soon they would back up and pop the nipple off. The milk would go out! Then they’d run around in middle of the corral and spit the nipple out and you would have to go find it and wash it off! It was a job, you know. It could try your patience sometimes, but we always had some real good bum lambs to sell when the sheep would come off the forest. Ordinarily my dad’s lambs weighed around, oh, around 90-95 pounds. Which is a real good lamb. BM: And how old would that lamb be? JH: That would be an April born lamb. BM: Okay. So when were the sheep and the lambs turned out on to the National Forest? When did you turn them out for grazing? JH: That’s on the first day of July of the year. BM: Okay, so that’s July. So they are on the ground, they’re being born in April, so April, May, June – they’re only like three months old. JH: Yep. BM: So how big is this lamb at this time? Is this like a loaf of bread? Is it -- ? JH: The newborn lamb? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Some of those little fellars would weigh, oh, I guess about six or eight pounds. I hated to see that – I liked to see a smaller lamb more because it will get up and it will go. If Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  13   �they’re any heavier than that in the cold weather, the little beggars will lay right there and freeze to death if you ain’t right there. BM: Hmm. JH: And then they get lazy and they don’t want to follow mama. If you’re moving them, like on a range, why they won’t get up and follow mama, when she leaves them – goes and begins to feed why they lay right there and then that ewe will have to go clear back there and get that confounded lamb. A lot of time she can’t find it because the little cuss won’t answer her. If the herder don’t know where that’s happened – if you ain’t watching your herd in other words – why, that can happen you lose a lot of lambs. If it doesn’t happen that way then the coyote gets them or the cat. BM: So that would have been one of the predators that – JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: Mountain lions or coyotes. JH: Or coyotes, yup. BM: Were there pretty healthy populations of those? JH: Oh, there was a lot of coyotes! There was a lot of coyotes. A lot of times we’d have to get up in the night and go run them off. Over on the east side of the lake when they first got up there in the spring – take the old lanterns and hang lanterns all around the bedding ground. You never let them sheep just sleep anywhere, you put them on the bed ground so you could watch them. BM: Huh! And you put lanterns around the edge? JH: Um-hmm. Put lanterns all around your bed ground and that would help keep the coyotes out of them. But a lot of times you had to go out there and run the dang things off. BM: So you’re on horseback running – JH: No. No, you’re on foot at night. BM: Oh. JH: You just go out there and when it’s dark you can’t see nothing anyhow – you just go out there and run them off the best you can. BM: Um-hmm. Did you yell? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  14   �JH: Yeah. You just had to holler and be careful how you done it because if you got to yelling, why the next thing you know your whole herd got off the bed ground and gone out in the sagebrush somewhere! BM: Holy smokes! So how many of you are doing this? How many of you are watching the bedding grounds as well as running off – how many people are managing? One. JH: Um-hmm. Just the herder. BM: And that’s you? JH: Well, sometimes it was. After we got out of school in the middle of June, why there was no school so I would go out and let my dad come home and do some things that he needed to do. Over there, you know, there are some nasty looking rattlesnakes, and out in the dark with them sheep. You could get pretty snaky! [Laughing] BH: So Dad, was that the common way most sheep herders did? Was just one sheep herder? JH: Yeah. Well, not too much. Pert near all the sheep men around here -- and there was a lot of them in Rich County. Over here right across from us and clear up into Idaho, there was eight herds of sheep over there. BM: Clear up would be like – JH: Up there at Mud Lake – east of Mud Lake. BM: Gotcha. JH: There was eight herds of sheep over there, besides what was over here. Nine out of ten of them had a Mexican herder. A big part of them had a Mexican herder. BM: Hmm. And why was that? JH: Didn’t have to pay them so much. [Laughing] BM: Cheap labor. JH: Yep, cheaper labor. NH: And the [inaudible] didn’t make them herd sheep. BM: Oh, okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  15   �JH: But you know, where the bulk of those old Mexican herders, they were the nicest people you’d ever want to be around. For example, if we picked up some of their stray sheep, we’d come out of our herd and then we’d take them over (with their brand on them, you know, we knew which herd they went to) so quick as we got a chance we would take them over there to that herd. And then you could sit there and visit with – if you could understand that Mexican. Most of them, they could talk broken English pretty fair, you know. He’d ask you if you’d want, “How about a cup of coffee before you go back?” or something like that, and you could talk about things. Most of the herds that was right here came from the Nebeker Ranch right over here. We was right by them. So if they had any problem at all over there – and all those herders rode mules – the orneriest bunch of contemptible animals you’ve ever seen in your life! [Laughing] NH: Now he could have said something worse! [Laughing] BM: Oh, tell me about these mules! JH: Yep, they were good. They were good mountain animals to ride if you could stay on them! Yeah. You had to ride them with a breast strap on your saddle and a britchen on the back end to keep the saddle from sliding over his ears. BM: Right! JH: And when you’re going up hill the breast strap kept the saddle from coming back and sliding off the tail end! But anyway, if they happen to get or something, why they would come over to our camp and we didn’t have much of a problem to get down here, the Nebeker Ranch, and let them know about it. BM: Now why mules? Did the Mexicans that worked the sheep – did they bring mules with them, or is that something that was locally used? JH: Nope. Nope, that was just what was locally used on some sheep outfits. BM: And why not horses? JH: Well, mule don’t take as much feed and he’s got a lot of good stamina; and I guess mostly that was probably the reason why most of those sheep men furnished mules survived. BH: Dad, were horses more expensive than mules? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  16   �JH: You know, they were to go buy a good horse. NH: Well a mule would eat what a horse wouldn’t eat too, wouldn’t they? JH: Yeah. BM: So they eat less and they eat a different kind of feed? JH: Well, they eat the same thing as far as that goes. I’ve seen them go strip the bark off cedar trees and eat the bark off of cedar trees. BM: Ooh. Well it also sounds like you’re in some pretty rough country, if you need to both tie your saddle off on the tail and with a breast collar – you’re going up and down some rugged hills! JH: You do! You do over there! Back here on the forest it’s even steeper than that! We had to use breast straps and troopers on all of our back horses because you couldn’t keep a pack on there right. One thing about that job, if you didn’t know how to throw a square cinch tie, you was in trouble! You could never keep a pack on a pack saddle. So when I was with my dad, why I learned how to tie that knot. [Laughing] You use what they call “swing cinches” to work on that knot. I’d crawl up on top of that load and roll the square end so he could hook the other end of rope through it; and when you pulled it down to a cinch, it would just pull a square knot just about that big. And that pack didn’t move. BM: Hmm. Could you still tie that knot today? JH: I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing] NH: I think he could. JH: I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing] BM: So when you were tying this up – it sounds like you’re going out to stay for awhile with supplies for a sheep camp? JH: Yeah. Well every time you moved camp – and you had to move, ordinarily we would move camp up here about, oh nearly every other day. Like I say, the easier you took it on your feed allotment up there, the better feed you had next year. And your water supplies, your spring supplies – it is amazing at how much it helped those spring supplies! BM: What do you mean by that? Tell me more about how the grazing helps the spring. JH: Well, you know you’ve seen where the grass is burned in the summer months, burned right to the ground – where it’s never had anything. It hasn’t had enough water all Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  17   �summer long. Well that’s what it looks like if you over-graze it. Well there is nothing there to hold the summer rains that comes; to revitalize that feed and keep your water supply up. So over-grazing hurts that range more than anybody could ever think. Anybody that does that is doing nothing but hurting their own self and their animals. BM: Um-hmm. And you probably saw some of that? JH: Oh, I’ve seen too much of it. BM: So what makes that change? Were you and your dad and your grandfather – was the permit system already in place then in the forest? JH: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh I don’t think I was much more than, what – maybe five years old – when my dad – well my grandfather came into this country with the first herd of sheep that came into Bear Lake Valley. BM: When was that? JH: I can’t tell you the year – he was a very young man himself, and he herded sheep for a big sheep company out west of Ogden. [Thinking out loud] What in the heck is that little town out west of Ogden? BM: Were you around Lucerne? In that area? JH: No, this is right straight west of Ogden – NH: It’s not Roy – JH: No, no. BM: But you’re west of town and east of the lake then? JH: Oh yeah, yeah. I’m just telling you where he grew up. He lived in that town. No. NH: No, Milton’s over in Cache Valley. JH: No. Well anyway, that’s where he was from. That’s where he was born and raised there. When he was around, oh about 16 years old (oh, I guess he was 15 years old), he went to work for one of those big sheep that’s out west of Ogden – Plain City! BM: Oh, okay: Plain City. JH: Plain City. That’s where he was from, Plain City. And then these big sheep outfits was out toward the north side of Salt Lake. And they brought the first herd of sheep over in this valley and he came over as a camp jack. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  18   �BM: Hmm. What is a camp jack? NH: Cook! [Laughing] JH: No, he was just an all-around – NH: Handyman. JH: Handyman, yeah and a cook. NH: Except for your dad, he had to do his own! [Laughing] JH: My dad, later on after he had gotten married, he bought some sheep and he came over and homesteaded that ranch up here. And part of that ranch is up there where you are coming down the canyon, you know and making loops around? BM: Um-hmm. JH: And all the buildings back there? Well, that belonged to him and it went over north of there, oh about a mile and a half. And it come this way almost over above the middle hill over here. He homesteaded and bought; that’s where his spring and fall range is that. And his summer range was all over Swan Creek Peak up here. BM: So tell me some of the landscape features. Before we turned the tape on you mentioned some hollows and some areas. Take us like from the south end to the north end of where he worked his sheep. JH: Well, our grandpa had his sheep over here on Swan Creek. His summer range was all over Swan Creek; it was a sweet setup. You didn’t have to trail anywhere to get on the horse. And it didn’t have very far to come off the horse. And most generally it had to be off the Cache National by the 10th of September, they had to come off. Most of the guys had to come off anyway to cut their lambs out and ship their lambs. BM: And who checked to make sure that you were off? JH: Hmm. NH: Forest Rangers. JH: Forest Rangers. I don’t know, I don’t really remember having them come and check us off. I know right up here west of the golf course, over the top of the hill, they had what they called the “Counting Trail” where you took your sheep on, on the first day of July. And the ranger sits there on his horse and he counted your sheep on. And if you had more in that herd than you was supposed to have, you had a problem on your hands trying to keep that many sheep out of your herd and then finding a way to get them down home! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  19   �So you was pretty darn careful about going on that forest with the same amount of sheep that your permit called for. BM: Does your permit change from year to year, as far as the number you can take? JH: Nope. Ours didn’t, some of them did. BM: And that would depend upon what? JH: That depended on that Forest Ranger. He’d come, oh generally he’d get around our herd about, oh right around the first of September (some time in there) and he’d ride that whole summer range: Dad’s whole allotment. And check the whole thing over. And that was one thing my dad was always proud about, he had the best allotment of the whole bunch because he didn’t overgraze. BM: So he sounds like he was very responsible with it. JH: He was. You never saw a more honest man in your life. I can blow about him! [Laughing] I don’t think he would steal a six penny nail from anybody. But he knew livestock, he knew what they were about and he knew what he had to do to keep them to the point where they was going to make him some money. BM: And it sounds also like taking care of the landscape for next year’s grazing and – JH: Exactly, um-hmm. That’s right. Your watersheds – that was another thing that the old ranger we had up here. I could remember him, he rode and old white horse. And he would come over to our camp every Tuesday when he was up in there. Our range was clear up – you know where the Beaver Mountain ski lift is? Okay, the actual Beaver Mountain is not there. The actual Beaver Mountain at that time (and it still is) right across Beaver to the north east. That big old mountain back in there – BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay. Our allotment went right up to the flats, the Beaver Flats. You go up through that narrow canyon there, right up to the Beaver Flats. And there was a saw mill up there a little ways and dad’s allotment ended right by that saw mill. BM: Do you remember the name of the saw mill? JH: I’m trying to remember. The man that owned that saw mill lived down there in St. Charles. Hmm. NH: [Inaudible] [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  20   �JH: Yeah, oh I’ll tell you my memory is just – NH: Oh about the saw mill and about St. Charles. Was it an Allred? JH: No. He had that mill up on the Beaver Flat. BM: Well, maybe we’ll think of it as we’re chatting. NH: I’ll go get the phonebook and go through it – that’s what I’ve done before! [Laughing] BM: That’s a pretty big allotment. JH: It is. It wasn’t very wide. It came down as you come up above the Beaver turnoff and you start making them turns, you know that kid has always had saddle horses in there. BM: Hmm, um-hmm. JH: And that’s one guy I’d like to take a boot to! [Laughing] BM: Because? JH: He treats his horses like, I’d better not say it. NH: He does not feed them. He does not take care of them. JH: He stands those horses in the hot, boiling sun with a saddle on them, waiting for somebody to come along and rent them. What in the world is wrong with that pine grove behind them – taking them over there and tying them in the shade so they got a place at least they’re not burning up! BH: Sometimes when we’re down that way, you know, I have to hang on to him so then there’s no stopping and going out there and turning them horses loose! [Laughing] JH: Well, I love a horse. You can’t beat a good horse and the only way you have a good horse is to treat that horse like you would treat your own self. You know? I’ve always had a horse that will work for me and the danged horse, just like a buddy. BM: So you had horses too? On the ranch? JH: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  21   �BM: So you didn’t have mules? JH: No. We didn’t have any mules, thank heaven! [Laughing] BM: So the horses then you used when you went out with the sheep in the summer time? You would pack horses? JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. Do you remember any of the names of your horses? JH: Oh yeah! We had Old Lass and I had a little mare that I’d bought from an old fellar out here (he had sheep and this was years and years later). The horses he used to put on his sheep camp and I herded sheep for him a couple of years out here anyway, out on his spring and fall range up on the top of south of Lake Town. BM: Okay. JH: And he had some horses that were so old, they would start to stumble with you and before they’d quit stumbling they’d be 100 feet down the road with you. They were just wore out. So his son-in-law got a chance to buy some young mares that came off the Carter desert out here in Wyoming. BM: The Carter desert? JH: The Carter desert. BM: So is that around Kemmerer? JH: It’s east of Kemmerer and a little bit north, kind of over towards Piney area. BM: Um-hmm. JH: That’s where them horses come from. So the son-in-law, when we came off the summer range that fall (and I wound up herding his sheep that time out here on the spring and fall range). So Paul rounded up all but that one horse that I was riding – a big old black horse (he could stumble over his own shadow) and he rounded up those old sheep camp horses and he traded them to this guy that had bought a bunch of those little Morgan mares. [End Tape 1: B; Begin Tape 2: A] BM: Tape 2, John Hansen and Side A. Go ahead with the Morgan thoroughbred story. JH: [Laughing] Well, anyway, Paul he traded those old, wore out sheep camp horses. They were in good shape, they were fat and so they brought a lot of money. They was buying Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  22   �them for fox feed. And so Paul, he just made a trade with them for some of those little thoroughbred Morgan mares. BM: Okay. Hang on – for fox feed, who is raising foxes? In the Valley? JH: Yeah. There was (I can’t remember his first name), but he was a stock from down here at Fish Haven. He used to have foxes. But I think he’d gone out of business by then. But most of the foxes came from over east of Preston, Idaho. BM: Okay. And they’re raising foxes for what particular industry? JH: Fur; for the fur industry. BM: Fur? So coats and other -- ? JH: Yeah, just for their coats, just for their fur. So when the boss seen them little mares, he really blew up. He cussed that son-in-law up one side and down the other one and he said, “Nothing but a bunch of junk!” He says, “Ain’t worth nothin’!” He says, “they’re not even worth having on the ranch! Just load ‘em up and get ‘em out of here!” he says. And he says, “We’ll go somewhere and find some horses!” Paul told him, he said, “Well, we can go find you some horses Tom, but you’re going to pay around $1,000 a piece for them horses if you expect your riders to get anything done on this ranch.” “Well what did you sell them others for?” “Because,” he said, “they had run out from under us too many times. They get right down on their knees,” he said, “and plow their nose in the dirt. You’re going to kill some of your men one of these days!” So they argued and argued and argued and no sir, Tom, he wanted them horses, them little mares. (What was it I think – there was five of them, five of them.) So the boss, he was going on like that and I had my eye on one of them and I just thought, “Well, you know, I’ll betcha I could get that mare for 50 bucks.” So while he was going on, “It ain’t worth nothin’, it ain’t worth nothin’.” When he stopped, I just, “Tom, I’ll just give you 50 bucks for that little mare right there, if you will sell her to me right now.” “Get her outta here! You’re on!” [Laughing] JH: I hadn’t even talked to her! We were a little short on cash anyhow! BH: Was this Snooks? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  23   �JH: Yeah. NH: Yeah, this is Snooks. BH: This is Snooks that nobody could ride except when Dad came home, she would saddle up to Dad. I remember her. JH: So anyway, I rode her out that winter. There was never a time she ever bucked with me. I just made good friends with her and once in a while I’d sneak her a little sugar [laughing], and a little extra oats or something, you know. And we got along just wonderful. And then when I quit herding sheep and went back to punching cows, that thing turned into the best cow horse we ever had on this place. BM: But you were the only one that could ride her? JH: Yeah. NH: Yes. BH: She ran away with me on her. BM: Oh! BH: I was coming down with Uncle Stan [he] was bringing the cows down, and I was up there with him and I begged him to get on her. And he thought, well if he had a hold of her bridle maybe I could. So he gave in and let me get on top of her, and she got away from him and ran away with me. BM: Oh my! How old were you Bonnie? BH: Oh, about nine I think, right around there. NH: I think, yeah. BH: And we were headed for the highway. BM: Oh! BH: And there was a fence at the bottom of the pasture there. And I could see that fence coming – I don’t know what happened, but I fell off of it, right in the middle of a cow pie! [Laughing] JH: Soft landing! [Laughing] Soft landing! Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  24   �BH: And Uncle Stan said, “Don’t you tell your mother that I let you get on that horse!” [Laughing] JH: He didn’t like to ride her very good because she got out from under him a time or two. She’d turn with a cow. I just talked to that little mare and she just picked it up as a natural, you know. She’d lay that shoulder right into a cow and that cow got ornery and tried to go around her, why she’d just – and that cow would just over. And the cow would generally go on her knees, you know. But when that cow got up that little sorrow mare had her right on the loop of the tail that sticks up – POP! She could take the hair right off, and that cow would bellar, man! She’d get back in the herd and she’d stay here! [Laughing] JH: But what I’m going to tell you about, you’re not going to believe, I know! That’s the only cow horse I rode from Goodwin’s. The only cow horse that I ever seen that you could get a cow in a fence, going down that fence and trying to get by you, and you’d reach over and grab that cow by the nose and make her back up, you know. She’d get over there in the fence. When that cow tried to get between her and that fence again, she planted all fours and run them back, sure as the cow on your right. You just take your rope, once that brass horn [clapping hands] banged her on the nose and she behaved herself. That cockeyed horse was running backwards almost as fast as she could front ways! [laughing] The first time she done that with Stan, he wasn’t looking for it (and I’d warned him about her; I said, “when your tailing cows with her, she will run backwards if that goes to go by you and she don’t want it to, she’ll plant all fours and run backwards with him and she’ll leave you sittin’ right there on her nose!”) [Laughing] And she did, a time or two! BM: So how old, when you picked this mare out and said, “That’s the one I want.” How old was she when you got her? JH: How old was she? Three. BM: Okay. And what made you choose her, when you looked at her? JH: Just her confirmation, her build, her legs and up here between her ears is where I always looked. If there’s a bump up there, get rid of them; but if there’s a good roll, a good roll is a smart horse. I’m going to check my horses when I go back home! If any of them have a bump, they’re in trouble! BM: [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  25   �JH: If they’ve got a big bump, they can be ornery son of a guns. BM: All be darned. JH: Anyway, I’ve ridden some nasty cow horses that would get dried out from under you. BM: So you had to replace Snooks when? How long did you have her? JH: I had that little mare for, oh gee, I guess 10 years or more. NH: A good ten years. BM: And you eventually retired her because? JH: Yeah, I had to. I had her over on the east side of the lake, rounding up one fall. I was trying to get them through a fence. I had quite a herd of cows and I was all alone and trying to move them over into another pasture where the last ten days that I was going to be over there with them for the season. And they was giving me a bad time, that little mare she just worked so hard. Finally when I stopped to let them get through the gate, why as usual, some ornery old heifers broadside the gateway and nothing could go through. And that’s when my brother come along, about that time, him and a couple of his buddies. (No, that wasn’t my brother that was Randall.) NH: Yeah, that was Randall our oldest son. JH: It was late in the afternoon, well quite late because he’d come from college over here and he brought his girlfriend with him. They all jumped out of the car and run over there hooting and hollering and got the cows a going. So when they got through the gate I got off to go shut the gate of course and I looked around – I could always drop the reins and that mare would stay there when I came back if it was an hour – went over and shut the gate, come back and she was just a quivering. So that was the last work she ever done for me. When I put her in the pasture here at the place, and she died here. BM: Ahh. JH: So. BM: Oh, I bet that was a hard loss. NH: Oh it was a sad day. JH: It was. NH: That was a sad, sad day. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  26   �BM: So she was about 18-19 – no, how old was she? She worked 10 or more years, so she was probably about 15. JH: Um-hmm. Yeah, she would have been right around 15 I guess when she died. BM: Those are probably big hooves to fill. JH: No. BM: No? JH: Nope. That’s another reason why I chose her. It didn’t cost the cock-eye much to shoe her; she was easy to shoe. I never had a problem putting a shoe on that mare right from day one. She always wore a double odd shoe. It didn’t take much to put shoes on her and she could get through brush for the bigger horses, but take half a day. But you had to be a rider to ride her in tall sagebrush, because she would go over the tallest of it! She’d just – like that. BM: Oh, just jump it. JH: Yeah, she’d jump it. BM: Holy cow. And you were hanging on! JH: I’ll say I was hanging on! [Laughing] BM: So who did you replace her with? JH: Randall, our oldest son, he bought a horse from (now I can’t remember his name, over there, he would live in North Logan) – no, no. He would be in North Logan now, but he had those American saddle horses. BM: Oh, okay. JH: He had this three year old – a real pretty, sorrow horse, with three white socks and a blaze face – BM: Another mare? JH: No. It was a gelding. And he bought that horse and – NH: [Inaudible] JH: Yeah, Loy Robinson was his name. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  27   �[Inaudible chattering in the background] JH: Anyway, he bought that horse from him and he was just halter-broke. And he brought him over here and we saddled him up and warmed him up walking him around the corral. And I got on my horse and just snubbed for him a little out here in the field; got him over there behind where Randall’s house is now and I just reached over and unsnapped the halter rope and turned him loose. [Laughing and chattering] JH: Well that horse just stopped, you know. So I just turned around and headed back down to the corral. And the horse he just (we named him Mac, well I guess I did), and the horse, he just followed us for a little ways. And then pretty soon that horse hit a running walk and he never stopped until he got to the barn door. And that’s the way that horse was for all the time we had him here on the ranch. You could get him up in the morning, jump him out of the truck over there when you was going to round up or move to another pasture, to get him out of there (just about the time the sun was coming up and by about six o’clock), that night you could aim him back to the truck and he would hit that running walk and that sucker was there until he got to the truck. He just had that much guts to him. He was just an all around good horse. He was fast, you could rope off of him. Randall never really rode him a heck of a lot! NH: He wasn’t here! JH: Well, that’s right, he was. He was in college most of the time. NH: College and on a mission, and – JH: Yeah, and then he went on a mission, didn’t he? Yeah. NH: Yeah. He got one year of college and then he went on his mission. BM: But this is a horse that other people could ride, unlike Snooks who -- ? JH: Well, I wouldn’t have put a kid on him. I wouldn’t have put somebody on him that, you know, wasn’t very used to riding for the simple reason if you got him around a cow, you better be ready to ride because he’s watching. If you’re just riding by a cow, if he figured that thing was going to turn and go somewhere, he wanted to go right now. You know, a typical cow horse, cutting horse. I only rode one other horse that was better than he was for cutting cows and that was Ross Jackson over here at Randolph one spring (the spring I got out of the Army). He had this American saddle mare – beautiful thing. Solid black, four white socks and a white blazed face and she had kind of a light mane and tail. He gave me her to ride in my stream and he says, “That’s been my personal horse, you take care of her.” And he says, “She’ll get your work done, but boy you better be ready to ride!” Well, he wasn’t Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  28   �kidding! That horse knew more in a half-book second about what a cow was going to do than I would know in all the year. First thing we did, went down to the field. That was in the last part of April, when it was nice and slick down there with slush on the ground. We gathered up a bunch of cows with little calves and riding around them, got them all bunched, ready to go up to the corral so we can put them in the corral above the road, so we could brand the calves tomorrow. Well first thing that happened: here goes a little calf, gone across the field – bam! That mare had that calf so cock-eyed quick! She caught that calf and spun and me just still hanging out there! I had to grab hot air! [Laughing] I wasn’t looking for it. Well, for one thing it was so slick, you know, I was afraid she was going to go out from under me. But he had some pretty good shoes on. They used horse shoes in those days, not these little pressed plates that will go out from under you. And so they had toe carts and heel caulks for them, and that’s the only thing that saved Dave! That cock-eyed mare had that calf back to mama right fast. And me hanging for dear life just trying to be there too! When I learned how to ride her, I knew what she was, you know. So I was watching her and we got along like two peas in a pod. We went out that spring and rode over to – well that was on the edge of the Carter desert where you had about 200 head of cows with unbranded calves that he’d just pulled off of a feedlot over there somewhere and set them up. And we had to go get them the next day and trail them clear back through Kemmerer then pert near to Randolph over here in the Crawford Mountains. And that was the nastiest spring I’ve ever seen. The first day, everything was peachy; it was nice and warm coming across that alkaline desert. I didn’t know where we was going, and the other rider that was with me – and to top it all off, to make it even nastier, we had 100 head of yearlings in there and they wanted to go home. And the cows was taking it pretty easy and it was hot. So he was riding the point and I was back on bringing up the tail end. And you couldn’t see your nose in front of your face for the alkaline dust flying. The next day the boss went and borrowed a sheep camp from a sheep man over there to put behind his truck to follow us through and then he had to take all of them mountain roads around to meet us here and there. In the middle of that night, the wind come up and it got cold! Man, it did get cold! And the whole herd got up and monkeying around so we had to get up and keep them together. And by about four o’clock that morning, here come the sleet. And man! I had a real good pair of bull hide chaps and I had it treated – what the old Mexican sheep herders told me to treat them new chaps with. They were roughouts. “Don’t put oil on them, don’t put oil on them – make too cold; when come time for cold weather, no bed, no bed. You get fur hung up under horse belly and get throwed and hurt.” Well what are you going to treat it with? “Go find yourself a big pine tree, with lots of pine gum. Take big ball of pine gum,” then he says, “you go put that in a pot and then get some minks foot oil and you put with pine gum; heat it good and mix it up real good. Go buy yourself a new wash rag if you have to and use that wash rag to put that on your chaps. Lay them out there on something flat and work that in.” He says, “It’d take you three or four days.” And I said, “Well, pine gum, that will make those chaps so stiff I can’t get into them at Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  29   �all!” “No rain go through, no rain go through and it will do cold, it will do cold,” he says. “You fix them chaps like I tell you and you be mighty glad you did.” Well that was one time I was mighty glad I did. The chaps, they stayed just right – they were fairly stiff you know -- just to hold their shape. And I could sit on a horse and I was covered down to my in steps on my boots and the water run off them and never got anywhere near damp inside at all. When we road for four days and four nights on that trail in the most miserable, cold storm you ever wanted; calves going in every direction on the tail end and me trying to hold them. And every time Casey come back to try to help me, the yearlings would take off and run. So we’d have to bunch the works together again and lose time a doing it. BM: And how many are you moving at this time? JH: We had, I think there was 215 head of cows with new calves. Well the calves was probably about like a month old calf. And then there was 100 head of those miserable, lousy yearling heifers. [Indistinguishable] [Laughing] JH: We battled and fought that through and out in that country, in that desert, there is washes to beat the band; and I wish I could remember the name of them. Because when you picked up some of these books and read them – he’ll tell you about some of them places you’ve been. There was two washes: one was a big, deep, wide wash and another one was smaller. And I read his books where it’s mentioned both of those washes right out here in Wyoming, by name. When we’d cross those things with that herd, that was all alkali country and just as slick as it could be. BM: Um-hmm. JH: And you’d get down in those cock-eyed things and you’d have a time of getting out. Then when I’d come along on the tail end, invariably I’d have about 30 to 40 head of them cock-eyed little calves on the tail-end, and ma up there bellering on the other side, and them calves trying to run back. And that mare just worked herself silly to keep them calves from getting away. If you ever wanted to see a smart animal – brother, there’s a smart animal: a horse. Well, we finally got through those washes and up the other side and finally, oh I guess about 4 o’clock in the afternoon why, it quit sleeting. It kind of shot off, you know, and then oh man, did it cold. And then Keith come riding back to me and he said, “We haven’t got very much farther to go John,” he says, “we only got about ten miles so we’re going to be coming up on Old Lady Wheeler’s ranch. Now that’s a big ranch, they’ve got Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  30   �great big cattle corrals in front of that big, old house. The house, it’s a two-story house, it’s got a veranda clear around the top story and around the bottom.” And he says, “When we get there,” he says, “we gotta be careful.” [Remembering] Zeeler! Zeeler. Old Lady Zeeler! That was her name! [Laughing] That’s what he called her anyhow! Old Lady Zeeler. “Now,” he says, “you could tell her for a mile off, you can see her for a mile off; she sat big. And she’ll have a great, big, old, black coat on from the top of her head, right down dragging on the ground.” And he said, “If she comes out here,” he says, “you better come help me stop them. Because,” he says, “I don’t think the boss is going to get over there in time to go talk to her. She’ll take a shot at you!” Oh my Lord! I said, “Well where is Frank?” And he said, “He’s going around there right now, he ought to be around there pretty quick now.” He says, “He’ll be there by the time we get there, I’m sure. Let’s just hope that he gets to talk to her and get permission to get these cock-eyed cows in that corral tonight so we don’t have to night ride.” Well, we kept a going and we kept a going, and I didn’t think we was ever going to get there. I could see that one black spot, see that big, old ranch house sitting over there. And there was a little grove of willows in a little creek just between us and that ranch house and the willows weren’t very tall, but I could see the top of that house and there was that black spot. And I watched that black spot get bigger and bigger [laughing]. And I just could see old Keith – now he was holding the leaders up all he could, but he just about had them all. One time we got almost over there and then she stood up on the porch and you know what she had in her hand? A double-barrel shotgun. She pulled out from under that big, old, black coat and she aimed that right -- , “Let’s pull it up, let’s pull it up.” And boy, everything come to a halt. And Keith, he was sitting on his horse and wondering whether he was going to get shot or not, and so was I! And here come the boss – he finally made it there! Drove up into the yard, and then she knew who he was. So he talked to her and asked her, he said, “We’ve just had an awful time in this storm. I wonder if we could put these cows in corral tonight?” He says, “These guys, they’s give out, so’s their horses. They’re wet and cold. If we could just put them cows in the corral tonight,” he says, “we’ll be out of here at daylight in the morning.” “Well…I recon you can,” she says, “if you know how to open that gate. Is there any one of the three of you that knows how to open the gate?” Oh and Frank says, “You bet! I’ll get it open.” [Laughing] That old corral was made out of poles – I guess it had been there forever, you know. And that gate was, oh I guess almost 20 feet wide! A pole gate. Old Frank, you’d just about have to have a saddle horse and lariat rope and pull that gate around to get in, you know. And old Frank, he just worked on that until he was almost black in the face and I hollered out, “For Lord’s sake! Go over and help him get that gate open! These calves are going to get away from me!” So he did; he went over. He just dropped the rope on the end of the gate and helped Frank pull that gate open. And then we got them in and put them in that corral that night. You know what happened? He pulled that cheap cap right down there in front of that old girl’s – Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  31   �[End Tape 2: A; begin Tape 2: B] BM: Side 2. And we’re continuing with the Zeeler Ranch story. BH: The sheep wagon? JH: Those two guys, they just jumped in that truck and they said, “We’ll see you in the morning John.” And left me there. BH: With Lady Zeeler? JH: Yeah! So I had to get old Keith’s saddle horse and then she was still standing up there with that shotgun tucked under her arm, you know, watching the whole thing. BH: How old were you, Dad? JH: I don’t know, how old was I? BH: Were you married? JH: No! That was before we got married. Just about – we got married on the 16th day of May of – NH: I think that was – around the last part of April – JH: It was, it was. BM: This is after you got home from the war? JH: Oh yeah. BM: Okay. JH: That was the only job I could find. You couldn’t even buy a job when I got home. And me and my buddy, we had quite a stinker pulled on us out there. But that’s not the story! Anyway – BM: So wait, she’s got the shotgun, she still has it in hand and you’re alone on the ranch with her. JH: Yeah, that’s right. So I looked up at her and I went over and got that horse. She had a heck of a nice barn that hadn’t caved in yet. She had all kinds of sheds you know, all her sheds were all there, her colt sheds but they’d all caved in. And I didn’t know whether I’d dare go put the horses in the barn or not. Finally she said, “Well, are you going to go get the horse and put him up or just stand there?” “Yes ma’am.” [Laughing] So I went and Keith’s horse and took him over to the barn and she says, “I guess you can tell a barn Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  32   �from a lean-to?” “Yes ma’am.” “Now put them in there, make sure you give them some hay. There’s some hay in there. Them horses have worked all day and they look like it.” Anyway, I took care of the horses and come back over the camp and she said, “You got any dry wood at that camp?” I said, “I hope so.” And she said, “Enough to keep you warm tonight?” “Well, I think so.” “Alright,” she says, “alright, I guess you better get at it.” And she turned around and went in the house. And I went over and climbed in the tent and built a fire and got myself some supper and climbed in bed and had one hell of a bad sleep all night, worried about her and that double-barreled shotgun. [Laughing] And those two jerks never got back over there until 7 o’clock the next morning and we had a 20 mile trail to go yet! Thank heaven it had quit storming. BM: But the cow, you were able to put in a fenced enclosure so you don’t have to worry about them? JH: Yep, didn’t have to worry about them. Oh boy, I’ll tell you what! That was a life saver for me. When those guys got there and then we had that 20 mile trail to go and that was back toward that highway that comes from Evanston over to Kemmerer. BM: Okay. JH: Not in the middle of it, we would come up from the Zeeler Ranch and hit that highway. And then once we hit the highway, we had about 10 miles to go towards Kemmerer. And then there was a big cattle outfit just west of the highway there, and that’s where we went with them. And we took them up there and that man was a good friend of Frank’s, so he let us put in to pasture there for the rest of the day. And then he said, “You guys get out of here and go home. I’ll have my riders bring them out of the pasture,” he says, “if they need to come out. But I think they’re alright right there until tomorrow morning. Now Frank,” he says, “where is your branding irons and your tools and stuff?” Frank said, “Right here in the truck.” He said, “Well leave them, my boys ain’t got a thing to do tomorrow and we can take care of them cows tomorrow.” Then he said, “You guys can come back and help us push them up on the range,” he said, “the day after tomorrow and settle them down and distribute them.” BM: So they brand them and then they’re going to disperse them up here on the Cache? JH: No. Over in the Crawford mountains. BM: Oh, Crawfords. JH: Uh-huh. So that’s what we did. And the next day, why we was back over there. No! Next day they branded them and then it was the day after that we went over. And he had, oh, he had eight cowboys on his ranch. He had a big old ranch there – he had eight cowboys, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  33   �and then there was just me and Keith and Frank joined them. We put the whole mass – I’ll bet we, well we had over 2,000 head of cattle. BM: Oh! JH: In that herd. And we pushed them up on that summer range of theirs over in the Crawfords. But then we had to pair up a lot of them to get different bunches. Then we just took them out and put them in different places over in there, in different pastures. Took all day. BM: And so you moved them and then you got them up and then had a day and then you moved them up into the Crawford Mountains. And then did his cowboys pretty much stay with them and work with them for the summer? JH: Well, a lot of the fellows over here in Randolph and Woodruff run cattle up in there and they all work together. So come roundup time, they all rounded at the same time. And I guess, according to that young son of ours (our youngest son, Mill), I guess come roundup time they had gala outfit going up there: work all day, then drink all night and play cards. [Laughing] NH: They still do! JH: Yeah, they still do. Our son-in-law runs cattle out there, and he’s a bishop – I don’t think he joined in with the boozing though. I don’t think he ever did much of that anyway! BM: Now was that the same time period – because you talked about getting the animals off the forest up here by September 10th. So were the Crawfords about the same time? JH: Yeah, um-hmm, ordinarily. BM: Okay. JH: There was a reason for that, it was a good one. Because you know, ordinarily your deer hunt came along in October, about the middle of October. And so to bring them off of there, by that time your feed is pretty well gone anyway. I’ve seen my dad come off the forest ten days quicker than that, just to make sure that he wasn’t going to have to go back over something they’d been over. They would come off about that time to get out of the way, so they would have time to go back up and ride for strays. He always got a good two weeks up here to get – and then you’d never get them all out. The snow has to drive them out. That was one of the reasons why we had to come off on the tenth day of September. Because they’d figured you’d had enough time to graze those animals, then you had time to go back up and make sure and ride for strays, because you’re always short. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  34   �BM: Now you mentioned going in that the foresters were there checking your numbers for your permit. JH: Yeah. BM: Were they also there when you came out? JH: There were times I ever saw when we came off that they counted us off. BM: Okay. JH: They never did count us off, no. I don’t know what they did with the other guys, the other herds of sheep; it was the same way with the cattle. No, they would count cattle, but ordinarily when I rode for this old fellow out here (I managed his ranch for a while) and he runs cows up here above the ridge. The forest ranger would come and tell you which gate to put them in on the forest reserve line fence. BM: Now which ridge is this that you’re talking about? JH: This is Long Ridge. BM: Long Ridge, okay. JH: Uh-huh; right above the Sweetwater Park. BM: Now, so the forester was there to direct you where they should go – which was the best pasture at that time? JH: They gave you a pasture to put them in. And that pasture was the one that you had for the summer. It was up to you to ride that pasture and make sure that your stock was there. You all worked together – you always had cattle get out and go on another guy’s pasture – so you worked together. And you’d go over and you’d pick up their strays in your pasture and take it back to them, and they’d bring theirs over to you. And they had a regular rider for the summer and he kind of watched out for that and helped you out, and then he did all the salting – they’d put all the salt out. BM: And how often was the salt put out? JH: Just whatever was needed. Now, that’s another thing that these people need to know. It’s crucial to a cattle operation – it’s not so bad for sheep because you carry your salt with you and put it in boxes for a night, you know. And then you’re not leaving a tromped down place. Well same way with those salt areas for cattle. That rider would go distribute so many blocks out in one pasture, because quite often he was always moving from one pasture to a new pasture. So he’d go and put that salt out – so many blocks that he figured that those cows was going to take for so many days. Then when it comes time to change that pasture, he’d go check on those salt grounds and if there was any salt left, he moved Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  35   �it. And moved it ahead to where he was going. And if you had a real good rider, why you know, you didn’t have to worry about it. You knew your cows had the salt in front of them that was needed, and there wasn’t excess stuff to bring excess cattle in at one time. BM: Now he’s carrying this on a pack horse? JH: Yeah. BM: And these are blocks? Like 50 pound blocks? JH: Um-hmm, yep. Regular, 50 pound block of salt. BM: Okay. JH: And if a certain cattle man wanted his cattle to have access to iodized block, he got the iodized block, and that particular cattleman furnished the block. BM: Oh, okay. So would the cattleman drop off the blocks and then the cowboy would come and pick them up and take them? JH: Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. He’d distribute that right up here – I’m talking about, have you ever been up Temple Fork? BM: Yes. JH: Okay. Right up on the flat, right up on the flat they had a pretty good corral back there; made of poles tight enough so the livestock couldn’t get in, not even the elk or the deer. BM: Um-hmm. JH: The association would deliver the salt and whatever else was needed, to that point. And then that summer that range rider would go there to pick up what he needed. BM: Okay. JH: And if he had to go like south of there, you get over to (what’s it called?), Mud Lake? Or towards the Hardware Ranch? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Why, he’d have to bring his Jeep up (most generally they had the same rider there for years), knew what he was doing, he had a Jeep; he’d go load up the salt that he wanted to put on those other salt grounds and leave it there and then he’d come and get his horse and his pack horse and go distribute from there. Because it was too far to carry that salt on a horse’s back. Salts mean to blocks of salt to carry. And I’ve seen it wear a hole right in a horse’s back. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  36   �BM: Ooh. JH: So that’s the way they did things up there and it worked out good. This guy I worked with – it was KB Hansen that bought this old ranch out here. And I worked for him for four years. And he ran cattle down – and this is where I got to know a lot of the Cache Valley boys over there. I rode with them for three seasons up in there; all up in Temple Fork area and all through Tony Grove and all that area. Better bunch of guys I’ve never worked with. BM: So when you were up in those areas, what other kind of people did you see up in Logan Canyon and Temple Fork and Tony Grove? JH: At that time, I rarely saw anybody. Of course I wasn’t up there all of the time. I did go up and help that rider occasionally when he’d need some help; I’d throw my horse in the truck and go up and help him. If he had something that had got away and he needs some help, why I’d go up and help him and generally there would be a rider or two coming from Logan up. BM: A rider that was working cattle or sheep? JH: Yeah. One was salt man, one was a cattle owner. And we would get together and we would go get them put back together again for him. They were just a nice bunch of guys to work with. There was only one or two. One of those guys, you probably remember. Had all that trouble there west of Logan out there by the ball goal where that crossed the slough and got hit and killed that woman? BM: Yes! That was just in the last few years. JH: Yeah, about what? Two, three years ago? BM: Right, right. JH: I rolled with him all one fall – we just happened to get on the same crew at round-up time. And I’d never met a nicer guy than him! My gosh, you know! And when I read what was going on, what happened to him in the paper, I couldn’t believe it. And I got to thinking (because I didn’t know him very much) about that big, wide ball pit I guess you could say down that side of that road. And I’d see them cattle over in there – knew where they was – I even hauled a load of these cattle down at round-up time I guess it was last fall that I was up there and rode with them. He had one load too many that he could load and they would have had to stay there in the corral up there all night and half the next day. So I told him, I said, “Well, I’ve only got five head up here.” And, I said “Criminy I can load them myself when I come back. I’ll just throw them in the truck and follow you down there and we’ll have them down there.” Well, you’d have thought I’d done him the biggest favor in the world! I don’t know that I did. I just came back and loaded our two or three in the truck, it was a simple matter. We had a real good corral there. Of course I was all alone, and then I had to lock up everything before I left! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  37   �BM: Where was this corral again? JH: What is it they call it? It’s down towards the bottom of Tony there. You know where the new highway ended off? BM: Um-hmm. JH: Okay. Then you go down the road there about, oh what? About three quarters of a mile. So on the right-hand side of the road, and I want to call it Bunchgrass, but the Bunchgrass pasture is back up toward the north – BM: So you’re not in Franklin Basin are you? JH: Nope, not quite. You know where Red Banks picnic ground is? BM: Oh sure! Sure. JH: Okay, well Bunchgrass is just south of that picnic ground, back up in the timber there. BM: Okay. JH: They’re quite a ways up there. It goes clear back up there almost to Tony Lake. BM: Hmm. JH: That Bunchgrass, sometimes you could hardly ride a horse through the cock-eyed stuff. Anyway, that’s where their corral was at. And I guess I haven’t seen it for years and years and years, but they still use it I know in the fall of the year. BM: Can I ask you a question about predators? When you were working with cattle and if there was a problem with predators and what they might have been? And did anybody help you with predator issues? JH: Not with cattle. We didn’t have any predator problems. In earlier years, before Dad got into range cows, when there was so many coyotes the cattlemen over there – where the highways hits just before you get to Bear River there’s Sage Creek Junction. BM: Yes. JH: Well okay. Some of those cattlemen there was having as much trouble with the coyotes and their newborn calves as we was having with the coyotes up there and the sheep. Oh man, there was coyotes anywhere you wanted to look. And the government, they had trappers out. There was two old men here that trapped coyotes for years; I can remember them both. They trapped coyotes, they’d shoot them, whatever it took. BM: Um-hmm. Did they do something with the skins? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  38   �JH: Yeah, yeah. They’d skin them out and they sold those coyote pelts – this was back pretty much in the days of the Depression when (just to give you an example), my mother used to give us kids one egg a piece when we went to school in the morning, once in a while. And the Hodge’s Cache Store was right across the road from where the church office still is. Well, she’d give us an egg a piece and we’d go in there and we could get a nickel’s worth of candy. BM: [Laughing] And trade for the egg? JH: Yeah, in place of the egg. So now, there’s what you were faced with here. Her [wife] and I, we lived through that. This is something else that these same people that you’re talking about, don’t know the first thing about. And you know, when I stop and think about it now, the people here worked together. All of them are farmers and they all had gardens. All the women, right down to some of the smallest little girls you’ve ever seen that couldn’t twist a lid on a bottle, knew how to bottle deer meat, or anything else. And they all worked, you know. I got one of them out here – that’s how she learned to bottle. She lived through it same time I did. If Mom and Dad didn’t teach that to them kids, you know (and I know they did). If those kids nowadays, that were kids then don’t teach that to their kids, they ought to have a hold of your head. Because at least you can live. We’ve got a real bad situation on our hands here. And you know and it’s going to get worse. Just as a little example, buying my groceries down here to Montpelier and in three weeks what I used to buy down there, the same articles that cost me $50 bucks, right on the scratch, yesterday cost me $71.63. That’s how much they jumped down there. Well, that’s where we’re going and you know, you talk about these people that need to know how to take care of your ranges and boy, I couldn’t agree with you more! And thank heaven we’ve got people like you who are willing to teach them. You know, if we were taught more about how we went through that in those days – my dad was one of the handiest men you ever saw (I know I’m bragging about him). BM: He was a good person though. JH: He could do just about anything. He built this home for us. He was a good carpenter; he was a good blacksmith shop; he could forge weld. He could build horseshoes from scratch – just whatever you wanted. He taught me and my brother everything that he could teach us. BM: And you’re probably very proud of what he could do too. JH: I’ll say. And he was awful particular about his work. That’s where we’re at today. We need more people to pass that lesson on to their children and their grandchildren. Now I’ve got granddaughters – two of the best articles I ever wanted to have canned: corn is one and deer meat the other. My mother used to cut the corn off the cob and I used to help her. And I right behind my house here that my grandmother used to use for the same purpose was a summer kitchen, with a big, old wood stove in it, you know. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  39   �BM: Um-hmm, sure. JH: And she did all of her canning out there. And Mother would take the sheets off of her bed and put on the top of that roof (it had a little gradual slope to it). And we cut the kernels of corn off of them cobs of corn and by the bucketful she would take it up there and spread it out. And then I had the job – BM: So she would dry it in the sun? JH: Yeah. Sun dried. And then I had the job of keeping the magpies off! [Laughing] JH: Oh man! BH: How did you do that? JH: Well, we had to pick of rocks out of the corn a time or two – [laughing] I used a flipper on them. I was a dead shot with a flipper, I’ll have to admit! [Laughing] She sun-dried that corn and then she put that corn in a bottle, screw the lid on tight and then come deer hunting time, why dad would always get a deer. And she took that meat and cut it up in little squares (about so square) – BM: Uh-huh. JH: And then she bottled. Well, you never had a better combination of something wonderful to eat – she took that corn and made gravy out of it and then she mixed that deer meat with it. And she would pull that deer meat apart with a fork. And oh, boy! You could just bust! BM: Oh, that sounds excellent. JH: It was really good you know. Those people in those days knew how to live. BM: They did; very talented. JH: You know what we got today – I know this is going to be a little bit off of what you were wanting, but I have to bring this to your attention. You know, I had a lady in here the other day; she’d bring us quilts for Noreen to hem. A real nice gal – she’s a little bit older than I am. I am coming 85 and I think Marie would be probably like about 87. (Whispering: One of the most staunchest democrats you’ve ever seen in your life.) And she sat here talking to Noreen. And she got to talking about what was going on here with President Obama. And I was just sitting here in the chair watching her. And finally I said to her, I said, “Well,” (she was talking about the fighting between the democrats and the republicans). I said, “Well you know Marie the best cock-eyed” [tape ends] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  40   �[End Tape 2: B; begin Tape 3: A] BM: Three, side one. Alright finish with the democrat. JH: She said, “What did you say?” I said, “Marie, the best thing that ever happened to this nation was World War II.” [She said] “I can’t understand how you can think that! Look at all the people and our boys from home that was killed and mangled in that war.” And I said, “Marie,” I said, “I was right with them.” “Well how do you figure that?” And I said, “You tell me this, Mrs. Democrat,” [laughing] I said, “When did you ever see the democrats and the republicans get along better than they did then?” NH: Oh, you said the wrong thing to him there! [Laughing] JH: And she thought and she thought and then she looked at me and she was waiting for me, I guess to say some more. I told her, I said, “You’ve never seen politics go out the window so fast in all your life. You’re going to have to admit it. Democrats worked with republicans and republicans worked with democrats because they didn’t have no choice in the matter! We was broke, just like we are now, and a whole cock-eyed world to fight this war in and how are you going to do it? Everybody pulled together. Everybody, because it was death staring them right in the face.” So I said, “And I hate to think that’s what’s going to happen here, but I’m just scared to death if they bring them kids out over there now those murderers are going to follow them right to our shores and we’re going to be worse off than we ever was!” That’s what’s scaring me. “And one of the biggest problems there,” I said, “now we have got a lot of people at the head of our government” (just like these young people that you was talking about), “that think they know, but they haven’t got the experience to handle. So the rest of us are going to have to get behind them and do something about it.” BM: Um-hmm. And they haven’t been destitute; they haven’t been challenged in that way. JH: Yeah. NH: We’re all going to have to get together and find a boat of some kind and put Obama on it and send it across the ocean – [Laughing] JH: And a few more people to go with him! [Laughing] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  41   �BM: Okay. Let’s stop there for – it smells like lunch to me. [Stop and start recording] BM: Okay we are continuing with our tape after lunch, here with John Hansen in Garden City. And we’re going to continue with some of his earliest memories of Logan Canyon. So, John. JH: I guess the earliest that I can ever remember of Logan Canyon was a mighty long time ago. I think I was probably right around six or seven years old. But the earliest thing I can remember about Logan Canyon, down the canyon very well, would have been right down at the bottom of the canyon where you come around that first sharp curve where the city water line used to come down and cross the road there. BM: So this is on the Logan side? JH: Yeah, uh-huh. They had just started to widen the road out and they had a steam shovel there working (and some other equipment). And I’ve been trying to remember the name of that company. They were a Logan company that was there. It wasn’t Johnsons, but it was another company from Logan. We’d been to Logan, been downtown and was coming home and we come around that curve and there was that steam shovel working there. And he was loading a truck. So we had to stop and wait for him to finish loading that truck so we could get by him. At that time, most of the rest of the road clear through the whole canyon was nothing much more than a wagon track, it was so narrow. Most places you had to pull over and stop and let the other guy go by you. And on the curves, the same way: you’d go around those curves awfully slow. I can remember that road up through there so well, and especially that particular time because that was the first time in my life I’d ever seen a steam shovel. I’d heard about them, you know, going to school and all that. BM: Wait a minute, before you go on. The road, the texture of the road at this time was dirt? JH: Yeah. BM: And one lane? JH: Well, you could call it about a lane and a half [laughing]. And it was all the way through right down to Garden City. So many places you just have to stop and move over and let the other guy go by you, or some places or a lot of places of course, why you could pass each other but you had to be awful cheerful about it. BM: How did you get through in the winter time? Wasn’t it muddy? JH: It was closed. That road was closed all winter. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  42   �BM: Oh, okay. JH: They never started keeping that road open (now don’t quote me on this, because I can’t remember for sure), but when they first started keeping that open I think it was right around 1938 when they first started to get the equipment to keep it open. For one thing, they needed those snow throwers real bad because the canyon would close so quick. They were in short demand and so that kind of hampered the opening of the road, you know, to keep it open. The first workers from Garden City that worked for the State of Utah on this side, kept that road open through the winter from Garden City, down to the Temple Fork (let’s see, it would’ve been down below Temple Fork by quite a little bit); right down where the new wide highway goes on down the – that’s where the guys from this side had to keep it open. Because the machinery on the other side – from there on down into Logan – had all of Logan and Logan area to do. The two men in Garden City was Ross Hodges and (oh, what the heck was his name?) and Lamont Schofield. They were the two first men to go to work for the State to keep that road going through the winter. And they would work all day until late at night and then they would hope that they could get back up to the road shed to get it open in the mornings. BM: So they stayed in the road shed at night? JH: No, they came home. BM: Oh, they did? JH: Um-hmm, yeah they came home. And then they found out that wasn’t going to work very good. So then they had to put on a second crew from Logan that came up. And then they’d change shifts. They had people working that road the clock around. They had people getting hung up in the drifts before these guys could get back the next morning. And a time or two they couldn’t even get in, they had to walk. BM: Where did they walk to? JH: Well, they could generally get up to where the overlook area is. They could get that far in that area with their cars, and then they had to walk from there, clear down to the road shed. In all that deep snow, that took a lot of time. So they put on two shifts. And that’s the way it’s been ever since and I think they have done an immaculate job on it all the time. I don’t know of anybody that’s ever had a lot of problems. You’re going to get snow blowing across that road and some of those cuts in no matter what you do. So I’m sure those fellows have had both hands busy to keep that road open, you know. I think that they did a good job. Of course they’ve had several different crews since that time. But to get back down to the canyon itself, why I can remember coming up through there in a car when I was of a young age, you know. Going through to Logan and back, or wherever. Especially after a rainstorm or in the fall of the year, the mud (because there was no surface on it, just a gravel road), you could get stuck pretty easy. But I can remember doing that. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  43   �And in much later years, why I didn’t have all that much to do down in the canyon itself for a long time, until after we was married I guess. Our next door neighbor over here and I, we just love to fish. And we’d put our families together on a Saturday night or a Saturday morning and take our eats and stuff and go over there just above the Red Banks. You know where they built that new house crossed, on the west side of the highway? BM: Right. JH: Well there was a good little campground there and we had fixed up a place, dug a fire pit and rocked it all up right nice, and Noreen and our good neighbor over there, those two women would get together and Dad still had a couple of his Dutch ovens left. And I’d go get them and we’d go up there to fish. And we would fish right from, well from above there, quite a ways above there; almost up to the confluence of the Beaver and the Logan rivers. And we’d fish clear down below the Red Banks. And then we’d go back up there and then ordinarily we’d have all the fish we was entitled to. And then sometimes when things got crowded there, why, we went down there one time (he and I just went the two of us), that was on Saturday; I’d see that little creek coming in down there just above the Red Bank (which was White Pine and I think you mentioned that). BM: Um-hmm, um-hmm. JH: And I was standing there where that was flowing in to the river and all of a sudden I could see some pretty nice fish going up. About like that, just real nice pan size. And I got to wondering how far up there those little suckers would go. So I told Dave about it – he was on the other side of the creek. So he came across and we started up there (and this would have been about four o’clock in the afternoon I guess, when we started up White Pine); we was getting more fish than we had any right to have at all, so we was just throwing them back. And we got to wondering just how far up there it did go. Well we didn’t know it went all the way up to White Pine Lake. So by the time we got up there it was getting pretty close to dark and going up across that little sagebrush flat – just below – why, that channel was so deep. I guess it would have been about waist deep on me if I would have fell in it. And there was them cutthroats about like – you could dangle anything you wanted to put right down on their nose and they would just not pay any attention to that at all. I don’t think we caught one fish up there. [Laughing] The next time we went up, we went all the way up and the same thing happened, right at the same place. I don’t know where all them fish was getting all their feed from, but boy there was big, fat ones and you couldn’t get them to bite! No sir. So I tried the treble hook just to see if I could get one. And I finally did get one. And boy, it was a nice fish and just as fat as he could be. And that’s the only fish we ever got out of there! BM: The only fish, oh! And that was a cutthroat trout? JH: That was a cutthroat trout, yep. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  44   �BM: Okay. That’s a very special population up there. JH: Yeah, um-hmm. BM: Wow, those are beautiful fish. JH: But talk about beautiful country, boy we’ve got it in this state. Anywhere you want to go. And it just seems so nice to be able to get in a place like that, you know and enjoy yourself. BM: And so close to your home. JH: Yeah, right. Close to home. And then we got acquainted with quite a few of the boys that came from Logan to fish up there – from just anywhere in Cache Valley. A whole lot of the fishermen that we saw were Japanese people. Just a whole lot of them. BM: Hmm. Why was that? JH: Well, that fish and rice are the major food stuff that the Japanese people over there eat. Fish and rice. I guess you could smell a Japanese soldier a good 20 feet away from you. You could smell him. And I guess maybe that a lot of bearing on the case. Now rice in the Philippines is one of their major crops. And they harvest that rice – they thresh it, just like we did wheat here, same old thresher. And the Japanese they would take that away from those people. They grow that and they would wait for that rice to ripen to the point where it was ready to thresh. They even stacked it in round stacks like we used to do here. And pull those old separators up the side of them. Gosh they had those big, old rice patties just covered with them. And the Philippine people got very little of it. Now there’s one thing I would like to tell you about and I don’t know whether you’d like to include it in this. BM: Let’s look where we are here. Good to go. JH: What I saw over there – BM: Over there, you mean in your World War II – JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. JH: What I saw over there, it would break your heart. Did us. I got shot up a little bit and I was sent back to a hospital. The other major Philippine island is Lety. Our people had already cleared Lety Island. BM: Now how do you spell that? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  45   �JH: L-E-T-Y (I think that’s it). I think it’s L-E-T-Y. BM: Okay. JH: And they had set up a real big area base hospital there. Well that’s where I wound up; they flew me clear down there – me and a plane load of other guys. We’re right on the south side of that – now this hospital is sitting right down on the beach. And there’s a big, high chain-linked fence. I bet that thing was a good 20 feet high. When we came in there in those ambulances and we got out, why that chain-link fence was about 50 feet away from the military hospital. And I’m bringing this to your attention so you can get an idea. Now there were MPs walking up and down that fence. And I was wondering, and I seen these signs and wanted to get out of the ambulance. I was close enough I could read one of those signs and it says, “Do not feed the prisoners. Do not feed the prisoners.” In big, bold, black letters. You couldn’t miss it. I went, “Prisoners? I didn’t know they would have a prison down here.” Now at that same time our boys had come into Manila. And what had happened, they had got into that big Japanese prison camp and they had freed all those people that are inside there. And 99% of them were women and children. And that was inside of that compound. And looking at what was over there would break your heart. That’s one thing I need to tell you is that the old American soldier has got a heart bigger than a lard bucket. And if anything is going to get to him it will be what is happening, especially to little children. There’s nothing but a bunch of skeletons walking around over there. You see every bone in their body. And had we fed them, had we gave them so much as chewing gum, it would have killed them on the spot. Because they had not been there, but just a matter of hours at that particular time (is the way they explained it to us). They made sure they we wasn’t going to be giving them anything because up in our battle zone when we’d run across them little kids, you know, we used to get those tropical candy Hershey bars (about that long and about so wide) and them little kids up there, they would come around and just, “Chocoletto-zho, chocoletto-zho.” And they were in our crations. So we’d give them a candy bar once in a while, you know. So that’s what I saw down there. I was down there for (what was it?), nearly three weeks before I could get this leg back under me. BM: Which leg was injured? JH: This one. BM: Okay, your left leg. JH: Uh-huh. Bullet went right down here and come out down here. My buddy stepped up behind me and took the sole off his boot, went through my leg and clipped the under sole off of his boot – he stepped that close to me. Wow. BM: Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  46   �JH: Then that was the only place in all my three years that I ever saw the LDS Church advertised. BM: Hmm. JH: That would be quite a little story, so you probably wouldn’t want to hear that. I get to church, but I had to wait a [inaudible] to do it. [Laughing] JH: And I’d only been there for four days, something like that I guess, when that happened. BM: Wow. I can’t imagine coming from a place like here and being raised on a farm, and your family around you and the kinds of things you saw here – even though it was during the Depression – and then having that kind of experience. JH: It was horrible. It was one of the most horrible things. But that was only half of it. I saw some of the worst of it, right up there in the Nagoya, Japan. BM: Mm-hmm. JH: After we had gotten settled, we were using Japanese quarters and everything, and kitchens – their buildings. And so you’d go to chow and go through the chow line with your mess gear, and you’d pick up your chow and go sit down to a table. And when you got through they had eight open-top barrels with planes under them outside. Well there was four of them that you scraped your mess gear out in those barrels, and then on the end where the boiling water was and everything, there’s where you washed your mess gear and then took them back to your quarters and hung them up to dry. Well, we got there (it was just, I guess somewhere around the fifth of September when we pulled in there), so it was pretty good weather. Well the first time we ate and came out there to scrape our gear out and wash them, all four of those open-top barrels had little Japanese kids standing there going through what used to be pig swill. Their clothes hung on them like there was just nothing but a pole inside. No shoes on their feet and nothing on their head. And then here would come the adults and run a competition and they were fighting over the contents of the barrels, what we would scrape off in there. Enough to turn your stomach, those poor little kids. Well, we hadn’t been there very long, the next thing you knew the mess sergeant was complaining he was having to go through too much food, too many groceries. So the company commander, he decided he better find out what was going on, so he went into the mess hall, collected all the KPs and the table waiters and the cooks and he really had a chat with them. Well, they were putting it out where they were supposed to, and putting on the mess gear as we would come through the line. Well, yeah, but those guys are loading up their mess gear more than they ever did before. We never seen them load it up like that in our lives. And those little kids would come over you know, with just about Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  47   �any kind of a plate or something that they could find. And so we would go along and we would just scrape off half of what we had. When the Army found that out, boy I’ll tell you, they brought that to a halt in a hurry! So then they put up a big, high chain-link fence to keep them out. And later on when it started to snow, the first time it snowed it dropped a foot of snow. BM: Oh, gee. JH: Here was them kids over there, coming down to those barrels and hanging their little fingers in those chain-link fences and looking over there so . . . [End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B] BM: [Tape 3: Side] Two. Go ahead. JH: There go battle-hardened soldiers standing there with tears running out of their eyes and dripping down off their chin. So we all of us got in touch – well all of us non-coms we got a hold of the company commander and asked him to have a talk with him, which we did. What can be done about it? And he said, “This is military gentlemen. You know as well as I do,” and he says, “we’re having trouble. There’s enough trouble and expense of getting food in here to you guys to get the job done. If you’re going to part with food like that, we just can’t afford it for one thing.” And he says, “You’re never going to fill them kids up.” Well who is? [And, he said] “That’s the Japanese people’s problem and you’re not to mix in it.” Then when I’d go out on my tour of duty, my riot patrol, we’d go by some of those little grade schools, you know, and see the same thing: them little kids. And the teachers just come right out and gather them little kids up and push them up to the school house. When you’d see them, why they’d be out just like our kids, you know, for recess. And it took almost three weeks before I could stop my squad from beside that fence and get those teachers to say one word to me. We had a whole bunch of those cock-eyed little bars – BM: These are the chocolate bars? JH: Yeah, the little chocolate bars. I’d gone over to the kitchen and swiped a couple of cartons. BM: [Laughing] JH: I did. [Laughing] I wanted to make friends with them kids, you know. My squad contained eight men, plus myself. And six of them was back in that squad truck behind me. I made them stay there, and my Jeep driver – I made him stay in the seat of the Jeep and I got out and walked over there with my pocket full of them. This one teacher – she’d seen enough of us and we hadn’t done any problems there, so I talked to her. I said, “Did you happen to speak English?” I knew a little Japanese, but I Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  48   �you know, I didn’t know all that much. And she said in just as plain of English as you could get, “Yes, I do.” And so I told her, I said, “I have some of our rations, little candy bars. They’re Tropical Hershey’s candy bars and they’re made by Hershey company. I’m sure you know about Hershey’s chocolate bars.” And she said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “Well I would like to give them little kids one of these bars.” I guess there must have been about 30 little kids that was in that class. The next thing I knew, here come two more teachers down there. I guess they got to wondering what was going on, you know. So they come down to see what was going on. So them three got their heads together and they decided to let me pass out a bar to them kids. So I got in the back of the Jeep and opened up one of them boxes and took it over there. And I passed out a little candy bar to each one of them little kids and then I handed all the teachers one. I ate one myself, to start with so they would know it was alright to eat. Well after that when I’d go by, “Chocoletto-zho.” [Laughing] BM: Were you able to do that again? Sharing chocolate with them? JH: Yeah. BM: Oh, that’s nice. JH: Yeah. I got my squad all together and I said, “Now it ain’t right that we just go and steal these chocolates over there.” So we pooled our money and bought them. And that wasn’t the only school. On that 40 square miles there was about four little grade schools on it and one high school. But around that high school I never saw anything but a little bit older Japanese boys that would’ve been maybe 14. But you didn’t see a girl, not a girl. It was quite a thing. BM: And this was in Nagoya, Japan? JH: This was Nagoya, Japan. Yeah. BM: So you were in the Philippines first, and then in Nagoya – JH: Um-hmm. BM: And then your job in Nagoya was what again? JH: I was a riot patrol sergeant. BM: Okay. Which means what? JH: Huh? Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  49   �BM: Which means what? What does it mean? What’s the job? JH: Oh. To make sure that there is no riots going on in the area. Because we didn’t know, you know, how they was going to receive us. For a long time you still didn’t know what was going on, especially in that area where they’d use those incendiaries and burn everything to the ground. You know, you’d have to naturally consider the fact that feelings wasn’t going to be very good about you. So that’s what the deal was. We never did have any problems. This boy that I showed you here (my old buddy) – he had a squad, you know. He had a different district than I had. He ran in to the same thing that I did. He had just an open heart as I did. Then we had another buddy from Iowa, that the three of us were occupying the same room together and all three of us were riot patrol sergeants and they had their district, same as I did. We all had similar kind of situation. The Japanese people could speak better English than we could. BM: Hmm. JH: The whole big bunch of them. There were very few of them you ever ran across that couldn’t speak much English. BM: Um-hmm. How many people were from your area that you were over there with? From Utah – JH: From Utah? BM: Or even from this northern Utah area? JH: Well, from Utah there was seven of us in that one assault battalion. And we spearheaded every lousy battle that we had in there in Luzon. We was the first ones on [inaudible] beach head. One of them was from Moab, down here. The other one was from Manila – they’re both gone. The one from Moab, he wound up – his family is down here in Sandy. And he passed away here, it’s been not quite a year now since he’s been gone. And the other one has been gone a year. And those are all I know of from around here anywhere. BM: Were they coming from similar backgrounds? When you think of the people you served with, were they similar kids as far as farm boys or ranch? JH: Yeah, quite a bit of them. Most of them were. Most of them in that outfit were. The outfit we belonged to was a 25th Infantry Division. And their home base is Schofield barracks within a 15 minute bicycle ride of Pearl Harbor. That division is regular Army. And we was sworn into the regular Army and they can keep you just as long as they think you’ve got anything that they need. My commander wanted me to ship over for two more years. And I told him, “Nope.” I said, “I’ve had enough of the Army. I’ve had enough of the fighting. I’m going back home over in that little valley that I know of and the surrounding areas where they grow the most beautiful girls you’ve ever seen. I’m going to find me a Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  50   �mate, and the next thing I’m going to do is I’m going to get me a horse. And get that sucker so I can climb up in that seat and look in between his ears and get out on a range where nobody can bother me.” BM: [Laughing] JH: And he looked at me. He was from Texas, he was from Dallas, Texas and he came off of a ranch too, the louse. Well, that’s when we was coming home on points. I think I had 58 points. BM: Wait. So what does on “points” mean? JH: Well, points they give you for your accomplishments in the military anywhere. Chiefly your battles that you were in, and your citations. I had three Bronze Stars; I went from a PSE to a Buck Sergeant in 15 minutes. And that was under a heavy battle. I was still packing a radio. BM: Because you were in communications? JH: Pardon? BM: Because you were trained in communications? JH: Yeah, um-hmm. I was still in communications. When we went up to Luzon to battle, I’d never seen a radio before, but I’d seen machine guns and I’d been around machine guns in basic training. So they attached me to a machine gun squad. And on this particular time I’d been with that squad for a couple of months. The squad leader got shot through the neck (right there, a bullet). Just shot him wide open while I was standing right there talking to him with my radio in my hand to transfer a message from him to the company commander. I was standing there trying to talk in it, all of a sudden pop! And something hot hit me, went down my throat, and all in my eyes – I couldn’t see. I couldn’t hardly hand on to that radio receiver, and I couldn’t imagine what in the sam-hell had happened. And Dave, he just hurled. And then I realized what had happened, you know. “Pressure point, pressure point, pressure point Hansen!” I tried to find it up there, couldn’t find it. I had to go up on his fatigue jacket and get up here in his armpit and I was lucky enough to find it. And then I was screaming and hollering for an aid man because he was bleeding so bad. Now I was having to hold him and tried to move him over so I could get him to go down so that sniper wasn’t going to get us again. Here, a brand-new squad of fresh little high school seniors that had come up to that squad that morning and didn’t know doodlysquat about combat. Nothing. Both guns sitting out in the wide open in a bad place and we had a banzai attack coming down the hill up there, 500 yards away. Well, anyway I hollered at those kids and told them to get them guns pulled back and get them up where I was standing and they just stood there and looked at me. About that time the captain come on and he said, “Hansen,” (it was a rare occasion you ever heard that man swear, Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  51   �but boy he had some choice words that morning!), “what in the blankety-blank-blank is going on up there?” And so I told him what had happened. Now he said, “You listen to me and you make damn sure you listen carefully. Because what I’ve got to tell you,” he said, “is going to mean that you’re going to have to dig in here. Get that radio,” he said, “take over that squad immediately, and get them a moving. Even as I speak,” he said, “you have a battle line under fire promotion from PFC to Sergeant. That’s your squad from here on out buddy, and you make it work!” BM: And did you still have this guy? JH: I still had him, trying to get him down. Well at that time the K Company’s aid men heard me and he come a hoofing up there. One of their first lieutenants (he was only about 20 feet away from me) and he had both hands full with his people. Then he dropped them and come up to help me get him down. So anyway, got that all took care of. And him and an aid man took David over and took him down. We were working on a real rocky, awful, nasty spot. We called it the “iron head.” You couldn’t dig a hole. And I turned and those kids were still standing there. This one kid I said, “If you don’t get them guns back up here, you’re going to wish to blankety-blank that you did. You see them Japs coming down up there? You’re out in the wide open!” And two of them had came in the night before and it was the only two that he had in his squad at that time. The other five had come up that morning. This one kid stood there and he said, “Well, I don’t know who you think you are,” he says, “I had military training in high school, I just graduated from it,” he says, “I don’t know why you can throw over at me.” And I said, “Mister, one more word out of you without I see action and you’re going to find out about it. Get a move on!” And he just stood there, just cocky – I couldn’t let him get away with it. When you’re under orders when that happens, you take action, you take that man out. So I pulled my .45 out, jacked her back, calm, walked down, knocked his helmet off, smacked him right on the side of the face there. And I mean I put him down. You’re told to kill them, don’t monkey with them. Well, I didn’t want to do that, but I knew I had to get him out of the way. When I did that I got some action out of the rest of them! BM: You got everybody psyched. JH: Yeah. So we got both guns back down where I could get a feel of the fire form, and then I had to go drag him out along the way, because he was right square where I had to have that ledge to go along the ground when he crawled up on you. Well I walked up to him and hoped he didn’t get hit, backed up and got my arms under his boot heels like that and under my arms, and I just dragged him down to where the rest of them were, his head’s a bouncing. I thought he was dead and took him down and the K Company’s lieutenant says, “Is he dead?” And I said, “I don’t know, and I don’t much care. I haven’t got the time, I’ve got to get these guys set up.” And then I just pulled my canteen out (and that’s one thing you very rarely had, was enough water). I just dumped that canteen in his face and started washing him. And pretty soon he started showing some signs of life. The Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  52   �lieutenant, he walked over, took the cork off his and dumped it on him. And between the two of us we got him a going. Well, to make a long story a little shorter, he turned out to be the best man we had in the squad. When I left I recommended him to take my place. BM: Oh. That’s great. Well you’re a leader and a teacher with that, you know. JH: Well, that’s your job and boy, you better do it because if you don’t, they will. BM: Yep. And then you came back? JH: Yeah. BM: And you got back on your horse? And got married? JH: Yep, I did. I did. BM: What is the date of that? JH: Well we were married on the sixteenth day of August, 1946. BM: Oh. Okay. JH: I don’t think I’d been home – I don’t think I’d been home much more than a month. And the funny part of it is I hadn’t ever dated her! I graduated school down there, the same school she was and one of my best buddies that lived in Ogden come up here and he was dating her when he come up. And I was dating her best buddy! [Laughing] BM: The old switcheroo there! JH: Oh, yeah! [Laughing] Interesting! BM: And then you both moved in here. JH: Yeah. BM: Okay. Well I think at this point, what we ought to do is stop because we’re just about at the end of this tape. And what I’d like to do is next time we get to talk, I’d like to pick up from that point. JH: Okay. Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  53   �BM: Okay? And then we also want to interview a little more on, definitely on the veterans and the World War II. I want to separate those two. But I am going to stop you here just because we’re about to run out of tape, and I am out of tapes! [Laughing] JH: You’ve got as far as you can go, I don’t want to overrun you! BM: You’re fine! You’re fine. This has been wonderful. Is there anything you want to say in closing, before we sign off for today? JH: Well I would have this to say to your students, as I understand it. Listen to your teacher and listen to your old people. Go and ask them some questions; don’t be afraid to go ask them questions. When I came home, nobody knew anything about – well, they knew where I’d been, but I just couldn’t talk about it. I didn’t talk about it until I had half of my children here. And then the thing that knocked me to, was the simple fact: history wasn’t being taught. Sports had all of a sudden taken place of history that these people nowadays need to know about. Because I am just scared to death their going to take a good look at her. And if you don’t know anything about it, you’re the first one’s to run. So I would say to them, learn all you can from your elders and your teachers; if they’re willing to teach you, listen to them. Then you’ll be a whole lot better off, and so will the nation. BM: Okay. JH: I guess that’s it. BM: Well thank you very much. This has been delightful. To be continued. JH: To be continued? Okay! [Stop recording] Land  Use  Management  Oral  History  Project:  John  Hansen     Page  54   � Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Where else is this found? Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm) <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Conversion Specs Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122 Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013-01-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John K. Hansen interview, 12 March 2009, and transcription Description An account of the resource Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah, and his earliest memories of Logan Canyon, three years in the South Pacific during World War II, 18 years in highway construction with W.W. Clyde and Company over in Springville, Utah, returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hansen, John K., 1924- Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Middleton, Barbara Subject The topic of the resource Hansen, John K., 1924---Interviews Hansen, John K., 1924---Family Garden City (Utah)--History Sheep ranchers--Utah--Garden City Sheep--Utah--History Sheepherding--Utah--Rich County Sheepherding--Utah--Logan Canyon Ranching--Utah--Garden City--History Ranch life--Utah--Garden City Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon Cattle herding--Utah Cattle herding--Wyoming Ranchers--Utah--Biography Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maintenance and repair Fishing--Utah--Logan Canyon World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Oral history Interviews Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho) Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho) Logan Canyon (Utah) Tony Grove (Utah) Plain City (Utah) Randolf (Utah) Woodruff (Utah) Temple Fork (Utah) White Pine Lake (Utah) Cache County (Utah) Utah United States Garden City (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-1949 1950-1959 1960-1969 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century 2000-2009 21st century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 3 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkColl42bx2fd3JohnKHansen Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12 March 2009 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2009-03-29 Is Version Of A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format. Logan Canyon Reflections https://highway89.org/files/original/078e07287337d2621252a91cb831907f.pdf 9f0780c9f4582a1c49a9cf7d95ee33f0 PDF Text Text MEETING NOTICE ( ~ public meeting regarding the improvement study for U.S. 89 through Logan Canyon will be held Monday Novem- ~ighway ber 3, at 7:30 p.m. in Garden City Hall in Garden City, Utah. The Utah Department of Transportation and its engi- neering consultant for the project, CH2M HILL, will present the data and findings from the first task of this study and the determination of transportation needs for the segment of the highway between Right Fork and Garden City. Preliminary findings of public concerns and environmental issues regarding road improvements in the Canyon and alternative alignments from the Bear Lake Summit to Garden City will also be reported. Questions and comments will be entertained. A fact sheet is being prepared for the public on the project mailing list. This meeting will cover essentially the same areas that were covered in the public meeting held on · September 23 at the Logan City Hall. Contact: Cliff Forsgren CH2M HILL 363-0200 SLC88/06 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/144">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/144</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner. Checksum 4101962281 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 497416 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Meeting notice for November 3 Description An account of the resource Meeting notice for November 3 at City Hall in Garden City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Forsgren, Clifford Subject The topic of the resource Logan Canyon (Utah) Traffic engineering Roads--Design and construction Logan Canyon Study Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Administrative records Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Garden City (Utah) Rich County (Utah) Utah United States Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1970-1979 1980-1989 1990-1999 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 29 Folder 6 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB29_Fd6_Item 19.pdf Highway 89; https://highway89.org/files/original/fe40f9168446c8d40313a03df21de24b.pdf 9aaca0cff5cf93cd5df13adfe8c971d3 PDF Text Text oR161ttAL 2 3 4 5 6 .. " o ... PUBLIC SCOPING MEETING LOGAN CANYON ENVIRONMENTAL STUDY 7 City Hall 145 West Center Garden City, Utah ~ I[ o IL 8 9 -000- 10 Presiding: Todd ~~eston state Highway Commissioner Utah Depar tm ent of ,.. TI'8.nsportation Conducting: stanton S. Nuffer 11 12 13 Project Manager 14 15 16 17 , 18 < U 19 o Z UI \oJ I[ IL 20 ~ UI \oJ ~ o « z " 21 22 \oJ D.. 23 24 25 CH2M Hill �I N D E X 2 3 Statement by Mr. Dee Johnson 6 5 Statement by Mr. Barry Negus 7 6 Statement by Mr. Val Peterson 8 7 Statement by Mr. Bryce Nielson 10 8 Statement by Mr. Ted Seeholtzer 13 9 Statement by Mr. Bryce Stringham 19 10 Statement by Mr. John Flannery 20 11 Statement by Mr. George Preston 23 12 Statement by Mr. Russ Currel 25 13 Statement by Mr. OWen Wahlstrom 26 14 Statement by Mr. Paul Webb 27 15 Statement by Mr. Bill Peterson 28 16 Statement by Ms. Cathy Webb 29 17 Statement by Mr. Ray Elliott 32 18 Statement by Mr. Lynn Hillsman 35 19 Statement by Mr. Don Huffner 36 20 Statement by Mr. Todd Weston of UDOT 38 21 Statement by Mr. Jess Anderson 42 22 Statement by Mr. Howard Richardson 43 23 'of Statement by Mr. Ken Brown 4 ell 0 3 3 .. Statement by Mr. Otto Mattson Statement by Mr. Dave Baumgartner 45 ~ II: 0 Ii. III ~ 1'1 C7I < u 0 z II) '" II: Ii. ~ II) '" ~ "0 0( z " III Q. 24 -000- 25 ) i. �GARDEN CITY, UTAH, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 1987, 7:00 P.M. 2 -000- MR. WESTON: 3 Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to w~'re 4 begin this meeting. 5 County, in Garden City. 6 for the use of this room, this facility. 1 here tonight on behalf of three agencies and a lot of other 8 interested people. 9 Commissioner of the Utah Department of Transportation, 10 happy to be over here in Rich We thank the Garden City officials We welcome you My name is Todd Weston. I'm the representing this part of the state. 11 We're here tonight to further our discussions 12 that we started with some information meetings some time 13 ago in this same room. 14 tonight. 15 had one in Logan last night and another one this morning 16 in Logan, and this will complete the scoping process of 11 the study that we're entering into on Logan Canyon. This is called a scoping meeting It's the third of three that we are holding. We The meeting will be conducted by the people from 18 19 CH2M Hill, who are the consultants employed by the Department 20 of Transportation to make the study in Logan Canyon. (Further comments by Mr. Weston. 21 Introductions 22 of officials present were made. Further comments by 23 Mr. Weston. 24 were projected upon the wall, and Mr. Barker gave a 25 narration. Comments by Mr. Sheldon Barker. Colored slides Mr. Nuffer continued the narration of the 2. �) slides. Further comments by Mr. Weston.) 2 MR. WESTON: 3 followed by Ken Brown. 4 We will first have MR. OTTO MATTSON: Ott~ Mattson, Gentlemen, after all these 5 6 route on a main artery, the highway system. 9 o Our economic growth is severely hampered by the fourth-class 8 III to be deprived of an adequate means of travel to and from? 7 ., studies, these surveys, the discussions, do we still have future is not to continue to be deprived because of a few N ~ a: ... o 10 We hope our we feel know nothing of our protective situation. We all love beauty, but we also love Twentieth 11 12 13 situations, transportation, livestock, construction, goods . 14 1-15 is an artery. 15 not least, recreation, the Wasatch Front's playground. 16 .J Century progress. economic growth now depends on the travel of these routes. < our future. o Last but Our Build, and remove the change for We hope you will consider that. MR. NUFFER: 19 U It's a Yellowstone route. Our views: 17 18 In our situation we have medical Thank you. Ken Brown. Then we'll Z til 101 20 a: t.. have Dee Johnson. ...: til 101 MR. KEN BROWN: 21 ~ Good evening, ladies and o « 22 gentlemen. 23 to see you, a good number of people here in attendance. 24 It shows good support, whether you're in favor or not in 25 z " I appreciate being here tonight, and it's good favor. 101 CL ) 3. �) The newsman from Channel 2 gave me a title of 2 being outspoken. 3 in there to indicate that. 4 But on the news, I didn't put- anything So I'm a little disappointed. As everyone knows, the Logan Canyon road 5 improvement issue has been one of a lot of controversy, 6 and I think that's probably unfortunate. 7 bit about the road. 8 been improved in Logan Canyon, as you know, is a very narrow 9 road, difficult to pass, problems for good flow of traffic. Just a little In my opinion, the area that hasn't 10 The bridges are a disaster, in my opinion, a real hazard 11 to traffic. 12 With respect to the study--and somebody correct 13 me if I'm wrong--I understand that this is the fourth study 14 --is that right, Todd? 15 ) MR. WESTON: 16 17 , 18 Well, I've been involved in three. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fourth. MR. BROWN: That's a real concern to me. going into the fourth study of this area. We're What are we going 19 to gain from the fourth study that we couldn't have gained 20 in the first, second, or third? 21 in my opinion. 22 The improvements. So I think that's a waste, I look for a design, improved 23 road, such as that in the lower portion of the canyon, or 24 that which has been improved. 25 essential for the flow of traffic. The passing lanes are New bridges need to ) 4. �) be built, in my opinion. 2 It's been my understanding that there has been 3 some proposal of a four lane system in Logan Canyon. 4 totally opposed to anything of that nature. 5 and it wouldn't be cost-effective. 6 Traveling in the canyon. I'm It isn't needed, I have spent most of II> 7 my life in Rich County. 8 of times, a lot of miles, a lot of different years, going 9 " o to college and Utah State University. N I've traveled the canyon a lot ~ II: o ... I think I have a 10 pretty good feel for how the road was prior to improvement 11 as now. Going through the canyon 12 now, and especially 13 the improved section, I can't see where you can tell there 14 was any disturbance carried out. 15 affect the beauty 16 there now, how can you tell, as I said, anything was ever 17 done? 418 <: u o I don't think it will once it's restored. As you drive through From a business standpoint or an economic 19 development, it's essential and critical. We know that 20 all businesses are struggling. 21 money, from the county standpoint, as well as from a grant 22 aspect, to the economic development in the Bear Lake region, 23 and we need to be able to get people to and 24 the Cache Valley area, as well. z UI LoI II: ... We are putting money, public ~ UI LoI ~ o « z " '" a.. 25 from~ I think As I said, I'm very much opposed to a fourth 5. �study coming forth of this issue, and I am very much in 2 favor of a road improvement in the portion of the highway 3 where the improved area ends in Garden City. 4 entire route needs improvement. MR. NUFFER: 5 6 I think the Thank you. Dee Johnson. Then we'll have Barry Negus. MR. DEE JOHNSON: 7 Good evening, ladies and 8 gentlemen. I appreciate the opportunity to comment. 9 I don't want to be repetitious of what's been said. I represent Rich County as a Commissioner and 10 11 12 ) as a citizen also. I sit in the middle. Mr. Francis was at the Logan meeting, and you've heard from Commissioner 13 Brown. 14 the other one is the other. 15 way to be would be to get in the middle of the road of those 16 two, and by so doing I sort of am an eternal optimist. And one of them is just as bullheaded one way as So I have decided the best I don't think there is anything that can't be 17 18 done if all people concerned try to make it happen. As 19 long as there's dialogue and study, then things like that 20 can happen. It's been mentioned that the entire economy, 21 22 of course, on this side of the hill depends on that road. 23 It is a major artery. 24 certainly fraternized by our people on this side of the 25 hill. I think Cache County's economy is You know, babies are born over there, and they will 6. �) always be born over there, and I'd like to see the road 2 improved and the environment withheld to a point that these 3 babies that's being born today and those that are going 4 to be born in 10, 15 years, can enjoy it. I see a situation where we have a present road 5 6 standard of approximately 25 feet. To get a standard or 7 a modified standard, we need to have about 8 I just can't help but think we can't add another 10 feet 9 in places where it's needed and still keep the environment io feet, and 10 so that it's protected, scenic. There has to be a way, 11 and there will be a way if we're all willing to work towards 12 it. If we go with Plan A, and we simply say no action 13 14 taken, then we haven't helped everyone concerned. We've 15 only helped one particular element, that being the element 16 who said, nBy doing anything, we disturb the environment." 17 If we go to the extreme and take alternatives 18 D or E, then we haven't maintained the environment as it 19 needs to be. 20 a road that can service the needs now and in the future. 21 We all have to work together. 22 the time. III N .... f ''"' " < u Somewhere we have to get in the middle, get o z I/) 101 a:: IL ...: I/) 101 ~ I think we can. I appreciate '0 « z " Thank you. 101 11. 23 MR. BARRY NEGUS: I agree well with everything 24 that's been said so far, and I think there is a definite 25 need for an improvement on the road. I think I can say ', ) 7. �most of the people travel on that road at least once a week, ~nd 2 3 to make it a little better and to help things out, not only 4 for us over here, - but for anybody else that wants to travel 5 the road. 6 think there are ways it can be done to keep the scenics 7 there and still make a good road and help everyone out. 8 12. · if not two or three times. Thank you. And with the scenic beauty and everything, I MR. NUFFER: 9 10 it does need to be improved Thank you, Barry. Next we'll have Val Peterson, followed by Bryce Nielson. MR. VAL .PETERSON: 11 ~ntothe I would like to have read 12 position that was taken by the Cache Chamber of Commerce 14 board of directors on the 15th of October in 1986 relative 15 to the Logan Canyon road study. such a study, which may eventually provide clearance to 17 much needed road improvements in the Logan Canyon. 18 our understanding that the study focuses primarily on the 19 stretch of canyon road between Right Fork and Garden City. 20 ~ 13 16 ) or recorded official record of this meeting a This is basically the unimproved section of the canyon road. We are pleased to support It is As a Chamber of Commerce we recognize that our 21 22 neighbors to the north in Idaho and Wyoming as well as Utah 23 depend on the canyon, Logan Canyon corridor, to provide 24 transportation access to services found in Logan and Cache 25 County. Their patronage to our businesses are encouraged, .) 8. �) welcomed, and appreciated. To these outlying communities, 2 this access is critical and fulfills a great need, a 3 lifeline, if you will, to much needed services and goods 4 not found in their areas. 5 Bear Lake is one of the largest bodies of clean 6 7 Salt Lake, and other Utah areas. 9 III facilities for not only local needs, but those of Ogden, 8 ., o ... fresh waters found in Utah. This area provides recreational area, as well as the canyon itself, attracts out of state ::E a: o IL 10 The beauty of the lake tourists, especially in the summer months. We think that the upper reaches of the Logan 11 12 Canyon Road should be made safer and more usable by upgrading 13 to an acceptable modern day standard as much as possible; 14 specificall~ 15 bridges widened, curves made less sharp, sight distance 16 lengthened, and areas widened. passing lanes installed, turning lanes built, It is recognized that environmental consideration 17 III ... N '" f 18 must be taken into account and in some cases allowed to 19 govern the situation. 20 attraction of the canyon is its uniqueness in its natural 21 setting. 22 uncontrolled road construction in Logan Canyon. III < u ci It is agreed that the charm and Z .., 1/1 a: IL ~ .., 1/1 ~ We do not want nor do we propose to support 0 <{ z " .., 0. 23 It is reassuring to know that an interdisciplinary 24 study team has been formed to guide the development of the 25 study currently underway. This team is made up not only 9. �of economists, biologists, engineers, UDOT, Federal Highway 2 Administration representatives, U. S. Forest Service 3 personnel, but the environmental community as well. 4 should provide a well balanced technical steering group 5 for recommended improvements. This Economical developments and the well being of 6 7 our existing businesses and those that may come into Cache 8 County is the basis of the Chamber of Commerce. 9 important for a Chamber of Commerce to help build a better It is also 10 11 the economic and social stability of our valley. 12 an opportunity for us to get behind this effort to do 13 something about the Logan Canyon Road and to work together 14 to improve our northern access from Logan to Garden City. 15 ) community by encouraging people to work together to improve Thank you. .. 16 17 18 MR. NUFFER: Thank you. Mr. Nielson. This is And after the Mayor, we will have Ted Seeholtzer. MR. BRYCE NIELSON: I appreciate the opportunity 19 to speak tonight. I look at the Logan Canyon Road from 20 various points of view. 21 up and live in Logan and to utilize the canyon from a 22 recreational point of view. 23 to live for a good number of years in Rich County and use 24 the canyon as a main artery towards the livelihood that 25 we require; doctors, stores, that type of stuff. I've had the opportunity to grow I've also had the opportunity ) 10. �! . I have also have had the opportunity to be a 2 fisheries biologist and a "environmentalist," you might 3 say. 4 the mayor of Garden City, and been able to see many of the 5 concerns that citizens of the area have about travel, 6 tourism, businesses, the life blood of communities. I have also been on the other side of the coin · as about I feel this gives me a good overview of the 7 8 problem on the Logan Canyon road. I feel that I can't really 9 state what alternatives I'm in favor of or opposed to. 10 11 13 appeal. is extremely important to me, since I transport my family, 15 my loved ones, through the canyon, and my friends travel 16 through the canyon. 17 to say which is more important that one or the other. 18 < throughout the canyon, its scenic values, its esthetic 14 u both the fishery environment and the other environments 12 ) Obviously, the environment is extremely important to me, think they're both extremely important. 19 o But on the same hand, the safety of the canyon So it's very difficult for me as one I I don't think speed is an issue in the canyon, Z III III 20 can you go around a corner? 22 many minutes can you save? 23 with most of the people in Rich County. 24 an issue with many people. 25 ... and I constantly hear this brought up as speed. 21 a:: very much in favor of improvement of bridges. How fast How many miles an hour, how I don't think that's an issue I don't think it's Safety is an issue, and I'm I'm very ) 11. �much in favor of improvement of passing lanes, so that 2 individuals who are impatient, want to get on down the road, 3 will not take hazardous actions that may affect the safety 4 of myself or people that I know and that I think a lot of. I think that it's important that the canyon is 5 6 improved for the tourist industry in Garden City and the 7 Bear Lake area. 8 about in many of these meetings is the fact that you talk 9 ' about loads through the canyon, people, numbers of cars; You know, one thing that's not been talked 10 but nobody has really talked about the amount of people 11 that go through Evanston, other routes to the area, primarily 12 to avoid the canyon. 13 utilize this exceptional resource . .J I'd like to see more of these people One other thing that I'm probably not--well, 14 15 I'm not in favor of--is any realignment of the Rich County 16 side. 17 and boats and semi's labor up and down the hill. 18 I also can see the scars of the old road that existed in 19 the thirties, and I don't want to see additional scars in 20 that beautiful area. 21 of the valley here and many of the tourists who come through 22 thoroughly enjoy seeing deer, moose, and associated wildlife 23 in that area. 24 25 I live on that alignment. I see the cars and trucks However, I know that many of the residents I think with some minor changes I can be very happy with the route as it exists at present. 12. �On the economic side, I don't want to see citizens 2 of Rich County be unduly taxed to maintain a road that they 3 would abandon if in fact they actually did abandon the road 4 or the alignment was changed so that it was our 5 responsibility as taxpayers to maintain the road that exists 6 right now. Above and beyond all, and in quick summary, I 7 8 would like to see more of us get together, both the 9 "environmentalists," "the users of the canyon," and the 10 politicians and look together to see the type of ending 11 that I think we can all be proud of. 12 ) MR. NUFFER: 13 MR. TED SEEHOLTZER: 14 15 Thank you. Ted. It's hell to get old,isn't it? My name is Ted Seeholtzer. I'm affiliated with 16 17 Travel Council for 11 years. 18 < u Beaver Mountain ski area. Bridgerland Tourist Council, which includes Rich County 19 and Cache County. 20 Some of them sit a little sideways from time to time, but 21 basically I'm straight down the middle type of a guy. a I'm a past member of the Utah I am now chairman of the So I can speak with two or three hats. z \II 101 a: ... ...: \II 101 ~ o '" " Z 22 I have been accused of being a special interest 101 IL 23 ·individual regarding the canyon. Perhaps I am to a point, 24 but I'm here to tell you one thing, whether or not I'm 25 associated with Beaver Mountain, if I thought for one minute 13. �that canyon was going to be uprooted, I would be completely 2 on the other side of the fence. So I do have some very, 3 very strong concerns about the canyon and what ought to 4 happen to it and the condition it ought to be in hopefully 5 when we get some work done on it. Just to throw a few insights to you regarding 6 7 the area and traffic patterns that we have there, on a day 8 that Beaver Mountain has 1,200 skiers, that develops into 9 roughly 440 cars at 2.7 persons per car, which is a good 10 average. It's pretty much a set number by all the resorts 11 in Utah-Colorado areas.· We have that happen any number of times during 12 ) 2.7 is a pretty good figure. 13 the winter. 14 Day and some of these type things that we get upwards of 15 1,300, 1,400, 1,500 people. 16 of 1,200 to 440 cars, if those people were to leave the 17 resort in an orderly fashion in a two-hour period, every 18 27 seconds an automobile would hit that road. 19 within an hour period, every 13.5 seconds an automobile 20 hits that highway. 21 Of course, we have some peak days. President's But as an average weekend crowd If they leave So we know that that road cannot be developed 22 to handle total peak traffic. The 24th of July, Labor Day, 23 Fourth of July type crowds. 24 considered when that road is designed that those types of 25 traffics are possible on it, and consideration should be But it certainly ought to be 14. �" given to that. We're noticing a great deal more traffic coming 2 3 4 We need those people in this area for their tax dollars, 6 the tourism industry, probably the easier industry to 7 attract. 8 water systems, and that for them. 9 (II resort. 5 " o '" from the Soda Springs, the Wyoming country in to use the your tax dollars. This side of the mountain needs some help also. We are not asked to build schools; cess pools, ~ II:: i 10 11 They don'tccme out of All they do is add to the coffers of the cities and counties where they visit. There are a few misconceptions that probably 12 have been handed out in the last 30 to 60 days concerning 13 the study that ought to be discussed just a little bit. 14 If you remember, the information was put up here on the 15 board regarding Logan Canyon as a designated scenic highway. 16 It · has been designated only in the Forest Land Use Plan. 17 It has not been registered in the Congressional Record at 18 this point in time. 19 that people think it is now in the record. 20 Forest Use Plan, not in the Congressional Record. III N ,.. 1'1 0> < U o I think that's a point of confusion Only in the Z VI III II:: '"- 21 It's been suggested that we use wider stripes, 22 · brighter paint, to mark the canyon with. 23 But, you know, it's rather difficult to see it in the winter 24 when it's covered with snow. 25 That's great. It doesn't show up too good. They talk about better .ighway atrol, law ) 15. �I. enforcement on speed down through the lower end, the lower 2 section of the project. I hope the heck they don't throw 3 the whistle at me when I'm on the way down, because there 4 is no place off of there. 5 for you and me to pull off if we're in trouble. 6 those things really need to be taken. care of. There are very, very few places Some of True, there could be some destruGtion to the 7 8 river. In places they have to build ret.a'ining walls. 9 question. It is a Class 2 fishery river. No But keep in mind 10 11 and it will always be a put and take river as long as the 12 ) it has been a put and take river for the last 10 to 12 years, fishing pressure is there. 13 it is possibly not a rating of a Class 2 river at this time. 14 So we have to consider .that We're been told that it will kill the algae in 15 the river if they work along the banks. 16 grow back next year. 17 have to be disturbed somewhat, providing we do not have 18 to maintain too many retaining walls. 19 So some of that stuff may have to be sacrificed for the 20 interim period, but it will return. 21 True. It will come back. But it will The bushes may Those will come back. Talk about campground destruction. Some of the 22 campgrounds will be eliminated. Two campgrounds are involved 23 in that lower section of the road. 24 other is the one at Cottonwood. 25 been blocked out for the last five or six · years by the One is China Row. The The one at Cottonwood has 16. �" Forest Service. It is no longer in use at this time. The 2 3 of the corridor of the trees. 6 granted. 7 GO have an extremely difficult time getting back on because 5 o You have . a difficult time getting off the road, and you 4 ., one at China Row shouldn't be, as it's far too dangerous. point . It is a beautiful place, But it is also a very dangerous place at that N ~ II: Logan Cave, a very definite problem area, probably 8 o ... 9 10 the most controversial area in Logan Canyon. question about it. Beautiful place. Agreed. No But it can be solved. The last four or five years, UDOT has had to 11 12 more fill in later on, nor push it into the river, which has been done the last two or three years . . I think that 17 problem could be handled very easily without a lot of 18 U it, and it's set. 16 o road. 15 < 13 14 ) haul fill in there to keep the river from coming over the destruction to it. 19 portion of the canyon--probably the one phenomenon in all 20 of Logan Canyon. Why don't we elevate the road? No problem. Cantilever out over We don't have to haul any And heaven's knows, I don't want that Z 1/1 W II: ... One thing that hasn't been discussed here a great 21 22 deal is the amount of snow that falls in Logan Canyon from 23 the Forks to, say, Sunrise Campground on this side of the 24 canyon. 25 there's somewhere between 300 and 500 inches of snowfall The records we've kept over the last years shows 17. �1/ within that area. , The 500 inches would fall from Tony Grove 2 over the top into Sunrise. Have you ever considered the 3 size of bar pit that you need to put that much snow in? 4 Sure, some of it can be blown away, but a 5 lot of it also blows back on. 6 ask the gentlemen who drive the plow trucks through there, 7 they will tell you -that 100 inches could blow in one night 8 that they have to push off, not only that that falls. I'm sure if you were to So we do need some bar pit room. 9 We do need 10 some shoulders for those in trouble to get off and to make 11 the road safer and less narrow in the winter time when there 12 is an awful .lot of snow falling. My recommendation would be on the improvement 13 14 15 estimation an excellent job on the bottom end of the road, 16 they have used awfully good judgment to improve that road. 17 f of the road to let the UDOT people, who have done in my It is not unsightly. 18 place, but that was necessary for a passing lane. 19 you did not have the one passing lane along by Brown's 20 Rolloff, you would only have the passing lane from Malibu 21 area until you hit the dugway, and that is too far for people 22 who need to get through the canyon. True, they got into the river in one And if I thank you very much for your time, and I 23 24 appreciate the privilege of speaking to you tonight. 25 Thank you. 18. �.. MR. NUFFER: 2 Bryce Stringham. Then we'll have John Flannery. 3 MR. BRYCE STRINGHAM: I'm Bryce Stringham. I've 4 5 It was about eight years before that that I was a part-time 6 resident. 7 that canyon any more than I have in the last '28 years, and 8 I put in quite a lot of input in the last meeting we had 9 ~ III o been a resident here for all the time for about 20 years. here, and I kind of protested about that road, and I'm sure I don't think there is anybody that has traveled Of I II: o ... 10 11 that's been covered many times. The concern I have on this is changing the route 12 13 'he's for keeping it on the route it's going. 14 go along with that to a point, that if we've got to change 15 that route, that we change it on the face here because of 16 the scenic values, because of the people who are already 17 ) on this side of the hill. I think, as Bryce has said, that there who need to serve in part. 18 need to change the road, let's keep it near where it is, 19 and let's come out where we're at. I essentially ,~ In other words, if we ill N ,... t'I 01 <: u o We have to look at the Z til W II: ... W economic part of it, too. 21 Now, if they're going to change the route down 22 Hodges Canyon, they've got to buy more property, they've 23 got to ·change the route. 24 maybe using some of the old route they had, or whatever. 25 I don't know what . the study is. That costs a lot more money than But I'd be violently against 19. �II changing any other route but essentially the route we've 2 got. Now, with some variations and like that would 3 4 be fine, but to change a whole new route that's the thing 5 that I'm opposed to. Thank you. 6 MR. NUFFER: John Flannery. 7 MR. JOHN FLANNERY: Thank you for the opportunity. 8 Can you hear me in back? I'm a writer, not a speaker. 9 So I'm going to read what I have for all here. First of all, I have no financial interests in 10 11 any way in Logan Canyon or Logan or Rich .county. This is 12 not in opposition to what has been said or to the idea of 13 improving the road we have. 14 it as a note of caution. I would prefer to think of When I came to Utah to work for the State 32 15 16 years ago, it was Parley's Canyon that said: 11 good place. 18 two-lane road going into Salt Lake City is marvelous. 19 gone. This is beauty." "This is a That small stream by the It's Provo Canyon was a quiet meander from Provo to 20 21 Heber Valley, with a few scattered mostly summer homes. 22 Excellent brown trout fishing and shade. 23 and winding. 24 gone. 25 The road was slow It was a place of tranquility. And it is The road from Ogden to Huntsville is less exciting ) 20. �perhaps. 2 homes. 3 13. k~ Steeper, a little bit. Narrower. Not too many That, too, is gone. One canyon remains, admittedly butchered in part, 4 riprapped in part, but maintaining its uniqueness. 5 Logan Canyon, as you all know. As a sometimes travel writer and photographer, 6 ., That's 7 I find that will attract and appeal to both the veteran 9 o my concerns are the esthetics of an area. 8 III What is it that traveler and the first-time or once in a lifetime voyager? N 10 11 I have visited and worked in a lot of states and a lot of 12 countries, flown over quite a few of them too. 13 ..J Without going into a travel log, I would like to say that of these have been visually diminished by the straight 14 ribbons of cement and blacktop we equate with progress and 15 call development. Too many Less than a month ago in Hawaii, I had the 16 17 privilege of driving a road called the Road of a Hundred 18 Bridges, and it runs down across the back of Maui to the 19 tiny town of Hana. 20 is 20 miles an hour. 21 And at many, many bridges you have to stop, yield to oncoming 22 traffic. · 23 There are 23 miles. The top speed limit You often have to go 10 miles an hour. These are one-way bridges. And you'd be glad that you're in a Japanese car and not an American car when 24 you do try to cross those. Still, it's an unforgettable 25 drive of leisure and beauty, with enough ·pullouts to 21. �) encourage dawdling and savoring a unique place on earth. 2 The Hawaiians don't lament those 23 miles of beauty, and 3 that leisurely drive makes people come allover the world 4 who care about scenic beauty. 5 of the tourist industry. 6 It's the backbone of some I submit that Logan Canyon and its river are 7 similarly unique. Certainly there is nothing like this 8 canyon and the Logan River left in . Utah. It's butchery, and it could happen. 9 It will 10 diminish its ability to draw the many people who come to 11 savor what we have. Injuring this canyon will diminish Utah's full 12 13 house of attractions. Its damage could and will reduce 14 the value of what is a gateway to your beautiful valley 15 and perhaps wipe out travelers' enthusiasm for the total 16 experience of the drive from the Wasatch Front communities 17 to Bear Lake. Minutes saved will never repay posterity for 18 19 the measured damage that may be done to the unique canyon 20 we have. Thank you for listening. 21 I know you're not 22 sympathetic to some of the things I've said. 23 this is not opposition. 24 you. 25 MR. NUFFER: As I said, It's a word of caution. Thank you. Thank Well, those are ~ll ) 22. _. ____ .. _ .. _.... ..... .. _. . .... . _.................. . . . . . _ . . . . ....... ....... _... ...... .... , ... ... ....... .\.\.. _,"\ H'" ... . . .? . • • _ .' .. r .. r .... ' ..... ·. _-•• , • • -·.""\ ' ..... ·--; .... _l �II the ones that signed the list that indicated they would 2 wish to speak. 3 home at 10 after 8:00, now, do we? 4 Some said maybe. We don't all want to go I hope the setup here hasn't intimidated anyone. 5 This looks kind of official, but we would certainly invite 6 you to come up. 7 if there is anybody that's changed their mind about talking 8 --if you said no here, I don't care. We sincerely want to have your input. MR. GEORGE PRESTON: 9 So Come on up. My name is George Preston. 10 11 of residency, but not newcomer in the sense of being over 12 here and enjoying the place, and I have a very deep sense 13 of feeling towards the responsibility that we each have 14 ) I guess I'm a newcomer to this county, newcomer in the sense towards this community. 15 16 Club and have thought as Mr. Flannery thinks, we would still 17 have a double width wagon track through the canyon. 18 < u If our forefathers had been members of the Sierra would be totally cut off from any sort of civilization; 19 and as far as any economy, there would be none. 20 there is now. o We Less than z I/) LoI a: IL ~ I/) LoI ~ I have listened to five hours of meetings. 21 I o « z " 22 have listened to both sides, pro, con, all the way from 23 Alternative A to Alternative D. LoI IL With that in mind, I drove through the canyon 24 25 today. As I drove through, I convinced one person, and 23. �that was myself, that this road can be improved, it can 2 be widened, passing lanes can be made. All of this can 3 be done with the gentlemen that are here and available as 4 experts, without compromising the esthetic beauty of the 5 canyon, without compromising fish, wildlife, with hardly 6 any· compromise to the ecology, because we can do it. 7 looking at the alternatives, and driving through the canyon, 8 Alternative C category, improvements can be made in the 9 first lower portion. In The C category can be made in the 10 upper portion. 11 down into Garden City, significant improvements can be made. Two of the worst corners in the entire canyon .12 ) · 13 And, of course, from the top of the canyon can be eliminated. We all know what's happened on those 14 corners. We all know of the accidents. There is no reason 15 to maintain a ·hazard like that in which it affects me and 16 potentially you, because those that have gone before us 17 . on those corners, they're gone. Who is next in the future? 18 When the economy of Cache County was sorely in 19 need of a highway leading into Logan, so that Logan could 20 say, "We need that highway to boost the economy," it was 21 given to Logan. 22 road and those modifications, compatible with the ecology, 23 to boost this economy." Rich County is now saying: 24 Please give it to us. 25 MR. NUFFER: "We need that Is there anyone else here? Yes, sir. ) 24. �II MR. RUSS CURREL: My name is Russ Currel. As 2 3 I came together. 5 ... I do speak for myself today. 4 n -- I look over this group, I recognize nearly everyone here. in Logan, Cache County, when that statement was made. 6 do support the statement of the Chamber of Commerce. I did come over. Val and I was president of the Chamber of Commerce I I would like to make some comments of my own. 7 8 I do own property in Bear Lake and property in Cache Valley . 9 I was born in Bear Lake county, and I don't think there 10 11 My family, as we were talking about taking a posi t ·ion here-- 12 ) is anyone here that enjoys Logan Canyon anymore than I do. I have five children, and without exception, all five said, 13 "Dad, please don't take a position to destroy the canyon." And I said, "I think you know me better than 14 15 that." But one thing I do take a position on, and that 16 17 is the safety of the canyon. I don't know what you would 18 do to the canyon. 19 getting from here to Logan very much. 20 are a lot of things there that need to be done for the safety 21 of the canyon. II) N " en 1'1 <: u o I don't think you'd speed up the time But I do know there Z III 101 a: ... I think I would be about B plus position on the 22 23 map, where I think there are a lot of those things, B, that 24 need to be done. 25 C. Most of those things, and even some in And I really feel they can be done without really being 25. �a hazard to the ecology or to the wildlife. 2 I don't fish. Never fished in my life. But 3 I think there are ways that we can handle the river where 4 we're not going to be a detriment to that. I would hope that we all get together, and I 5 6 think the mayor over here stated it best. 7 together and work hard on this, I think we can overcome 8 the problems that are here and really accomplish what we 9 want to accomplish. Thank you. MR. OWEN WAHLSTROM: 10 If we all get My name is OWen Wahlstrom. 11 12 know how to express my feelings to you; but this winter 13 in the canyon, we were going through the canyon to Logan. 14 It was snowing so hard I had to stop and get the ice off 15 my windshield at Twin Bridges. 16 I watched three snow plows go across that bridge with their 17 blade jammed into the guardrail to miss a car coming the 18 other way. They were all three sliding. 19 ) I'm a resident here. feet between them. My family is from this area. I don't While we were stopped there, There wasn't six I definitely agree that the bridges have got 20 21 to be widened. 22 you'd call a modern day miracle. 23 wide body cars. 24 make it. 25 Somehow they missed the car. It was what One of those big full, And we didn't think they were going to If we don't do something, and if we go completely ) 26. �with the esthetics, are we going to make up a road like 2 is going through Glacier National Park, where all trucks 3 are prohibited and large motorhomes are prohibited? 4 It will eventually come to that if the traffic keeps up. I, too, enjoy the canyon; but I do think some 5 6 7 there are probably lawsuits against the State in that canyon . 8 We're going to pay one way or the other. 9 .., CII o .,. improvements have to be made. happening in there. I don't know. I imagine ~ a: o ... Accidents keep It's been stated here, it's a 10 11 - substandard road. are many areas in there where if somebody wants to raise . 12 problems for I'm not an attorney, but I'm sure there it can easily be done . anybody, I also rely on the economy over here very much. 13 14 I don't want this to be a two-bit tourist trap, but I think 15 we can accommodate more people than we're getting. 16 you. 17 18 < u MR. NUFFER: MR. PAUL WEBB: 19 o Thank Yes, sir. Can I just stand here? is like driving through Logan Canyon. The trip (Laughter.) Z \II 20 W a: I/.. ..: \II 21 w ~ o « I just had a few thoughts I want to say. taking any alternative-- 22 MR. NUFFER: 23 z " MR. WEBB: III IL By Could you give your name? Paul Webb. I am a resident here in 24 Garden City. By taking any alternative less than a major 25 resurfacing modification, we're only going to reduce the ) 27. �Il time between conflicts between people and also reduce the 2 time between disturbances of the environment. We must 3 remember at this point in time we consider the canyon a 4 beautiful place, where wildlife thrives and brightens our 5 lives. 6 was butchered, and it has recovered. 7 the butchery. 8 can be improved and provide transportation to people. 9 we're doing the job, let's do it right. But remember, at some time in the past the canyon And it's beautiful. 10 MR. NUFFER: 11 MR. BILL PETERSON: We are looking at With caution, the canyon While Yes, sir. Bill Peterson, Garden City. 12 13 20 years. 14 surveys and signs and studies go on in the canyon. 15 think it's time we get past the looking and the studying 16 ) I've been a resident of Garden City and the area for about and do something to improve the canyon. 17 For 15 of those 20 years I think there have been I'm in the real estate business. .1 really I have numerous 18 people coming through the canyon stopping in the office, 19 many of them upset. 20 21 22 23 24 25 "That's a beautiful canyon, but I would never drive over it again." I mean, I'm not kidding you. That's what a number of people say. It's dangerous. want to go over it. It's beautiful. But they don't I really think even the first section ) 28. �down towards Logan is out of date. i We've got you gentlemen 2 3 than your 1 to 2 percent you've predicted. 4 of major developments, at least 5 are major. 6 • o coming up here. Our growth rate is going to be much more every year. tw~ We have a number that will be here that And we have building permits. We're growing 7 I think if you go and improve to meet what you 8 had in the lower part of the canyon, as Paul said, you're 9 III wasting your time. III ~ a: o ... We should plan · now to have the facilities 10 for the future. 11 Canyon is not going to do us in 10 years from now. MR. NUFFER: 12 ) 13 That section in the first part of Logan Thank .you. Is there anyone else? Ye s, rna' am. MS. CATHY WEBB: 14 My name is Cathy Webb. I'd 15 16 view. 17 to and from Logan probably at least once a week. 18 < u like to make .some comments from a woman's standpoint of even more than that. 19 o z VI .... a: Everyone of us ladies - here in this community travels Maybe I'd like all of you executives and officials 20 that are in this room tonight to know that I have spoken 21 to each and everyone of you several times. 22 didn't get past Paul's ears. 23 And I've gone through that canyon a million times, and I've 24 remodeled it a dozen times. 25 ... to see what . would happen if somebody dug away some dirt However, it It didn't get past the car. I've checked out the mountains ) 29. �and some shrubs. I've put up fence along the dugway for 2 years, so that the rocks wouldn't bounce down on the road. 3 I just know I'm going to get hit by a boulder on the dugway 4 one of these years. I just know it. On top of the car. I've taken four little children, tiny little 5 6 babies to the doctors, the hospitals, the groceries. I 7 have spent probably a minimum of $500 a month, ·and that 8 probably is a minimum, over in Cache Valley. I appreciate the comments of the Chamber of 9 10 Commerce. We like to feel appreciated over here and the 11 fact that we do put a lot of money into Cache . Valley . . I would also like to make a comment that last 12 13 year in August I packed up my car, took my 15-year-old 14 daughter at 10 o'clock at night. 15 My husband had already left. 16 with just my daughter and me, 10 o'clock at night. .> We were moving to Logan. And I started out the journey I climbed up the summit. 17 I had a car behind 18 me. 19 to get in front of me. 20 to the point that I had to pass him again. 21 him. 22 tell, I had a carload of screwballs following me. 23 I let him pass through Tony Grove, or through Beaver, He slowed down. And then he continued to tail me. He slowed down So I passed As near as I could Needless to say I was scared to death by the 24 time I got to Logan, because, you see, we passed no other 25 cars on the way. There was no moon. It wasn't bright. ) 30. �') There were no reflectors. I couldn't tell if there was 2 a place for me to pullout on the road. 3 my tail. 4 on going. 5 But I couldn't tell. I wanted him off I had no choice but to keep At that point, I told my daughter, "Hand me a 6 7 GI o traveling through the canyon, put a man's hat on, it will 8 • .. baseball cap," because I had always read if you're a woman protect you. ~ I[ o a.. 9 We're driving down the road, and I am scared 10 11 this hat on, and we went that way through the rest of the 12 canyon with these guys tailing me, turning their lights 13 off, harassing me through the canyon, and I not being able 14 to get off the road to make them pass me, until we got onto 15 the new part of the road again. 16 bugger, you go ahead, and I'll find somebody, and I ' l l get 17 ) to death. "Hand me a hat." I tucked my hair up and put your number." And then I thought: "You 18 19 to the point, once we got to the turnoff, that he had to 20 pass. 21 < u And he had to pass me, because I slowed' down ' was my greeting into Cache Valley to be a resident there. o z \I) LII I[ IL. And that's the way we went on into Logan, and that ..: \I) LII ~ o « z " 22 LII Well, we lived there for nine months and then CL 23 24 25 we ended up moving back to Garden City. May I say to those of you that are here and representing the environment, you'll find no one that ) 31. �\ appreciat.e s the esthetic beauty of Cache Valley and of the 2 mountains more than those of us who choose .to live in them. 3 We talk about the drives. 4 single time we go through Logan, because every time you 5 go through Logan Canyon you see something different. 6 We talk about the beauty every Improving that road is not going to change what 7 we see when we go through that canyon. 8 to say. That's all I have 9 Oh, I do have one other comment. 10 who is in Logan, calls Logan Canyon a paved cow trail. 11 MR. NUFFER: Thank you. 12 MR. RAY ELLIOTT: My dentist, Anyone else? Yes. My name is Ray Elliott. I 13 know most of you here. Some of you may know us from being 14 here in the summer. 15 So I wanted to speak just a little bit concerning all of 16 the interests involved. I have interests here in Bear Lake. This seems to be quite a polarizing issue. 17 I '18 went to the meeting last night in Logan. The meeting was 19 heavily represented there last night by environmental 20 interes~s, 21 towards development of the road. 22 different motives, different personal interests, some of 23 them personal, some of them environmental, some of them 24 concerned with safety. 25 from people who have specific monetary concerns in the canyon and the interests seemed to be more slanted Everyone seems to have Some interests are monetary, either ) 32. �I, or on either side of the canyon, to see improvement made. 2 I feel that we really need to be responsible to 3 4 we need to be careful to protect the things that we all 7 ., to be made in the canyon. 6 flII improvement. 5 o the future, both for the environment and safety and feel are important. .... But in making those improvements, There is going to be increased traffic. 8 9 Improvements that are going to be made need If we want to see increased use here in Bear Lake, we need to 10 decide who we're trying to attract. 11 Lake is attracting tourists, we need to be careful. 12 we want the tourists to get through on a faster highway, 13 or do we want to attract people who are there to enjoy the 14 scenery? 15 If the economy of Bear There are gives and takes there. Do In trying to 16 attract more people, if they declare 17 route and list it in the Federal Registry, you may attract 18 more tourists; but in doing so, you're going to have to 19 accommodate more people in that canyon, and the roads are 20 going to have to be improved. 21 both ways. 22 th~ highway a scenic There are going to be trades If we decide over here--and I have interests 23 here that I need--I would like to see tourist trade increase, 24 but I'm not sure that faster roads or scenic highway, either 25 one, there's a question that exists there. Which is going . ) 33. �to be in the best interests of Rich County in attracting 2 3 tourists? We need to be careful that this type of forum 4 that we have in getting public opinion does not leave the 5 engineering firm, CH2M Hill, UDOT, with the impression that 6 what they have seen either in support of widening the road 7 or in support of saving the environment and doing nothing-- 8 they're going to be left with an impression there, and then 9 they're going to take that 10 info~mation home and decide what they will do with it and do what they will. 11 the two groups is because each group feels that one group 13 is trying to take advantage of the other group or that the 14 concerns of the environmentalists will be totally served by 15 whomever is going to make the decision, or the concerns 16 of improvements in the road are going to be served over 17 ) Now, some of the polarities that exist between 12 14. the environment. 18 I have a suggestion that I'm not sure what could 19 be done there to insure that both sides are served; and 20 I feel that there is a middle ground that could be achieved 21 without destroying the environment and without changing 22 the canyon, and still improving the road. 23 responsible to the improvements that need to be made. 24 25 . We have to be I mean, I've driven a pregnant wife at 2 o'clock in the morning over that highway from Bear Lake to Logan, ) 34. �with labor pains and two minutes apart, and I know the 2 anxiety that accompanies that. 3 So there are safety concerns that we need to 4 5 forum like this leaves people with a few notions that they 7 will go ba.ck and, . again, as I said, do what they will. 8 there could be a committee put together of interest groups 9 ., o ... same time, I really love and appreciate that canyon. 6 III be .concerned with, that we really need to address. that each have their own interests that could be used as At the A If ~ I[ o "- . 10 11 environmentalists, the Sierra Club may have a representative 12 at that meeting, the Rich Tourist Council should have a 13 representative on that advisory committee. 14 perhaps there should be a way to insure that everyone's 15 ) checks and balances for whatever is going to be done, the interest there is served, and I feel that they can be. 16 17 MR. NUFFER: 18 < u That's all I had to say. MR. LYNN HILLSMAN: I think that Thank you. Yes, sir. My name is Lynn Hillsman, 19 and I have one thing that's just a little bit different 20 than most people. 21 of others. 22 the middle of the road, and there are major problems with 23 the subgrade. 24 up the road just to even maintain it. 25 improvement and still try to maintain it? o Z \/I 101 I[ "- I drove that canyon today, like a bunch ...: \/I 101 ~ (; « z " a. 101 To my idea, there is water coming up through To redo this, you're going to have to tear So why not do some \ ) 35. �But with the subgrade and the drainage the way 2 it is, there's something drastic has to be done with that 3 road to keep it to where you can drive on it. 4 you're doing it, do it right. 5 That's all I have to say. 6 MR. NUFFER: 7 MR. DON HUFFNER: So while Yes, sir. I'm Don Huffner. I wasn't 8 going to say anything tonight, but Ray reminded me of 9 something that happened to me. I used to be on the Highway 10 Patrol. 11 in Logan Canyon, it was probably me that gave them to you. 12 In fact, 20 years ago if any of you got tickets Ray said that he has driven Logan Canyon with an expectant wife. 14 somebody else's expectant wife, and it's no easier when 15 it's somebody else's wife. 16 ) 13 trying to tell the father how to deliver that baby. 17 Well, I've driven Logan Canyon with It's hard to drive that canyon I've got some recommendations here, or at least 18 things, as I look at the presentation and look 19 a little more specific 20 maybe Alternative C was all right. 21 looked at it, and Alternative D, they have changed the road 22 just below Ricks Spring and cut out an area there that in 23 my opinion, my experience, it is quite a bad area. 24 made a lot of other improvements here, too. 25 like the difference between C and D is this cut just below On at the maps the first section I thought that But then the more I They But this looked ) 36. �1 , ) 1 Ricks Spring that eliminates an area where the banks are 2 very steep and in the winter time the sun never gets down 3 to the road--well, seldom gets down to the road--not because 4 of clouds, but because of the mountains shading it. 5 quite a dangerous area in my opinion. Now, Alternative C I believe would be fine other 6 7 That's than that. On the next section, on Section 2, I thought 8 ' 9 10 they would like to see the road brought right up to snuff, 11 put a brand new road in there, because in 15 or 20 years 12 ) Alternative B was satisfactory. NOW, some have said that we're going to need it, or maybe even sooner. 13 possible. That's But ' economically speaking, I don't know that-- 14 15 I'm afraid we're going to choke the horse if we try to feed 16 it that much and that we need to be realistic on our needs 17 now. 18 <: u We've got other areas, other routes of getting 19 in and out of the valley. 20 too, to develop those along with this. 21 summer people that have cabins here on the lake that come 22 from Salt Lake, well over half of them--well over half of 23 o I think we need to work on those, them--from the Salt Lake area come through Evanston already. Z III III It: IL 24 25 Already of the Now, as more people learn of the Evanston route, there will probably be more and more people come that way. ,. ) 37. �') And that's not all bad to have several accesses into our 2 area. The last section, again, there are some very 3 4 bad curves there, and I think that they need to be looked at. I think Alternative D would be the one that I 5 6 would recommend. It eliminates the bad curves without 7 realigning the road drastically, and I think we could get 8 along with that. Thank you. MR. NUFFER: 9 Is there anyone else here that would 10 care to testify? 11 want to that changed their mind? Now is your chance. Well, with that, do any of the UDOT people want 12 13 Anyone that came thinking they didn't to say anything in closing? MR. 'WESTON: 14 I was ready to go at 10 after 8: 00, 15 but since we've talked some more, let me make one thought 16 or two in conclusion. 17 through our previous meetings that Logan Canyon itself means 18 different things to different people. 19 all going to agree upon what Logan Canyon means to us. 20 think we've found out that it's a very sensitive area. I think 'we've found out tonight and I don't think we're I I think we already know that the Forest Service 21 22 desires to keep it a scenic highway, and I think that's 23 fine. 24 25 I think that can be done. I think we need to remember a few things, and I think I need to answer a question of Commissioner Brown's. ) 38. �I think it deserves an answer. That is, what's to be gained 2 3 study. I don't think we've lost anything by three times. 6 that this better be the last study before we do something 7 CIO And I've told you previously that this is my third 5 . asked. 4 o ... by an additional study? I think that's the question he in Logan Canyon . study~ng it But I do think that the time has come now l: II: I say that from the standpoint that we now have 8 o "- 9 -got some structures up there in the canyon that have got 10 to be repaired or replaced quite drastically. I can see 11 some problems if we don't repair those bridges; and if we 12 try to do it on the existing alignment, on the existing 13 bridge, we're going to have to build a route around those 14 bridges for the traffic to go through that may be more 15 detrimental to - the highway than some of the things we're 16 talking about. I just want to say this much, that we have got 17 18 19 do something on the bridges is quite obvious to most of 20 you here. 21 of our study. 22 Transportation is not flush 23 the Legislature recently passed a 5 cent gas tax increase, 24 the needs that we have, I've got to say in all honesty that 25 <: u to do something on the bridges. - The reason we've got to 5 cents more gas tax is a drop in the bucket to our needs. o z II) 101 II: ... What we do over and beyond that is the purpose But I do know this. The Department of with dollars. Even though ) 39. �We have to rely on the federal highway people 2 to help us fund primary road systems. Logan Canyon Highway, 3 Highway 89, is more than just a road for Cache County. 4 more than just a road for Rich County. 5 federal highway; and as long as we're going to have a primary 6 federal highway going through that canyon, we've got to 7 keep it up to certain standards. It's It's a primary 8 Now, if the time comes that there are enough 9 feelings that that shouldn't be a primary highway, then 10 I guess we'll address that at that time; but it presently 11 is, and we're required and obligated in our responsibility 12 to the highway system of the State of Utah' to do certain 13 things on that highway to make it reasonably safe and usable 14 for the traveling public. 15 to do it. 16 it's our judgment as a Department of Transportation, that 17 there will be no money spent up there, even on bridges, 18 until we complete an environmental impact study in depth, 19 like we're doing now, and there will be a chance to have 20 you come to a hearing on our draft environmental impact 21 study, which will be ready sometime this fall, hopefully; 22 and at that time you can make the decision, help us make 23 the decision, on what we're going to do with Logan Canyon. 24 But I do know that the study has got to be done. 25 We need federal highway dollars The federal highways, I can tell you now, and When I first came on the Commission, ·1 was the ) 40. �\ i first one to go to the rest of the Commissioners and say, 2 "Why are we spending half a million dollars up there to 3 study something we already know?" 4 statement as Commissioner Brown made. You know, the same 5 6 ., I since have become a little older and a little wiser, and I know that we've got to complete this document . 7 and consider every option and consider everybody's feelings 8 and examine every portion of it and now do anything in that 9 ell o canyon until we're satisfied that we're doing the right III ~ II: o ... 10 thing. 11 to release any money and Dave Baumgartner and the Forest 12 Service are not going to support us if we don't do the job 13 And I know the federal highway people are not going -and do it right. 14 Now, that's the reason for the study. You have an opportunity to give us input. You 15 16 consulting team up until April 6. 17 has the address you can mail those to, if you have things 18 < u will have written comments that can be written to our to say that you didn't say tonight. 19 if you want to get your name on the record, you send that 20 in to the people and express yourself. o You have - a handout that Even if it's repetitive, Z III W II: ... I don't think numbers are going to be things 21 22 that make the determination. I don't think numbers ever 23 was the determining decision-making process in any valid 24 decision. 25 good solid concrete suggestions on what you think we ought But we do want your input, and we want to have 41. �to do. Thank you. MR. NUFFER: 2 3 Jess, did you have a follow-up on that? MR. JESS ANDERSON: 4 I just have a question. Can 5 you do anything with the area around Logan Cave? 6 make that parking or something? 7 in a snowstorm in the middle of the night, and there's not 8 much room on that corner. That's what these experts are going MR. NUFFER: That's one of the areas we're going to tell us. 11 12 You come through there MR. WESTON: 9 10 Can you to take a good close look at. A VOICE: 13 Just on the time frame fot the 14 environmental impact study, how long does that need to 15 proceed? MR. NUFFER: 16 Well, if all things go reasonably 17 well, we hope to complete the draft environmental impact 18 statement this summer, which will give you the environmental 19 datq to accompany these alternatives that we have identified where. 21 One more question. 22 A VOICE: I'm a little uncomfortable with the 23 monologue type input. I feel a little better with the more 24 dialogue type input. 25 says something, another person says something, and it's What's been happening is one person ) 42. �tough for both parties to get together. What my question 2 is, ultimately who makes the decision, and how is that 3 decision going to be made on what is actually done in the 4 canyon? 5 6 '" III o 7 MR. NUFFER: Does Howard or Todd care to answer that question? MR. HOWARD RICHARDSON: This draft environmental N ~ II: 8 impact statement will contain an inventory of all of the 9 o "- resources and the values that all parties have identified 10 in the canyon; and a recommended design will be recommended 11 or proposed, considering all of those things; and where 12 impacts or problems are perceived to take place, mitigations 13 and recommendations will be supplied in the environmental 14 impact statement containing what will happen. 15 There will be a public hearing that will be held 16 17 < o on that proposal and on those recommendations and on the 18 U that will contain the comments of people who wish to comment proposed mitigation. 19 U. S. Forest Service and the Federal Highway Administration 20 will make a determination of whether the environmental issues 21 and safety issues have been properly addressed and whether 22 that represents a reasonable and proper and prudent solution 23 to the problem at hand. After that has been heard, then the Z VI 101 II: "- ..: VI 101 ~ o 0{ I!) Z 101 II. 24 25 So the agencies, the sponsoring agencies are the ones who will make the final decision. It will be made 43. �only after a tremendous amount of input, of which these 2 meetings last night and tonight are only a part of. MR. ELLIOTT: 3 Another question. Is there a 4 possibLlity of having a citizens' advisory to that decision? 5 Has that been done? MR. RICHARDSON: 6 Well, I don't think that's--it's 7 possible to have that done on an informal basis. 8 would be simply a measure to help structure and make sure 9 that the problems are identified and the concerns were 10 properly put into the environmental document. MR. ELLIOTT: 11 12 But that Could you take that into consideration? MR. RICHARDSON: 13 Yes, I'm sure that will be taken 14 into consideration. 15 that. 16 meeting for several months, there has been 12 to 15 meetings 17 by the interdisciplinary team. 18 of varied interests of the resources and the values in the 19 canyon. 20 place. 21 22 23 On the The team and I were thinking about interd~sciplinary , team that has now been That represents a composite So there already is a type of that thing taking Yes, there is. MR. ELLIOTT: Is there any way of getting a record of what transpires next? MR. RICHARDSON: Well, those minutes are public 24 information, and minutes have been kept of all of those 25 meetings, and CH2M Hill are the guardians of those things. ,) 44. �~) They manufacture them and make them and circulate them for 2 each of the meetings, so that everybody knows what was done 3 last time, and they are reviewed and approved and discussed. 4 And, yes, those things are not secret. 5 for everybody who wants to look at them. 6 III o 7 MR. NUFFER: 8 ., . MR. ELLIOTT: MR. DAVE BAUMGARTNER: 9 They are available Thank you. Dave Baumgartner. As a suggestion to us all--and I haven't talked to Howard nor to Stan nor the 10 CM2H folks about this, the original design of that 11 environmental study is unique, and it really didn't operate 12 like we had thought it was going to at . the beginning. 13 had invited some members of the environmental community 14 to sit on that, because they had the major concerns with 15 the program. We 16 17 o needs that legitimately ought to be done on the highway. 18 < u I think most people recognize that there were 'And our thought in the beginning was to bring in those people 19 who had adverse views to that and help us work through the 20 process, so that that would go a little bit smoother. Z 'II W II: ... ~ 'II W ~ 21 But it's changed a little bit in its organization. o 0( z " 22 I would suggest to us who were on that team that we do what 23 he suggests and invite a responsible member from either 24 this side of the hill or however we want to do that, in 25 order to provide that balance that not only he, but several W IL 45. �others have suggested. I think we ought to consider that. 2 That's more of a statement to these guys than the crowd, 3 but I think it's a legitimate thing to bring up. 4 MR. NUFFER: 5 (At 8:43 p.m., Wednesday, March 4, 1987, the . 6 7 Thank you. meeting ended.) -000- 8 9 10 11 12 ) 13 14 15 16 17 18 .1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ) 46. �r - - - - - - - - - - - -- ------- - -..-_ . C L ! -~ r 'T' I 2 3 State of Utah county of Salt Lake 5 I, Ronald r . Llul.1.;;trd, 01 0 here!.. '.' certify that I ,un a certified shorthand reporter in ano [or the ~~t() te of Utal'lt 7 8 proceedings, and that tlLi : ; 9 correct record of said proceedinqs. 10 11 Dated a t of 12 ()~r~ Sal t Lr -· ll l~i cr..i.pt L.'1J:(~ C ity, ..i. :.~ ,l Lull, true, Utah, tlnd day 1986. (R~&.~..2__ 13 '~ '. !lon.:lld F . 14 IIubbilrd - 7.30 LTudCJ(~ J1.ui lc1in'J Salt L ~lk.C City, Utah (301) 355-1611 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ::-) L___ _ �. . .- ....' () LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SeOPING MEETTNGS . 3« 1987 ~o§aD Utah 4, 1981 - Gar-en city, Ut~ March ~rch ) \~ /V2) �, I LOGAN·CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING -MEETTNGS I March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 1987 - Garden City, Utah NAME REPRESENTING r/\~ t>-Av DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? j!cJ~ } r. I �LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING . . - "\ 1 I ~ \ ....J . ~NGS March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 1987 - Garden ' City, Utah I ; NAME REPRESENTING DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK? �•• I LOGAN · CANYON STUDY - PUBLIC SCOPING MEETINGS March 3, 1987 - Logan, Utah March 4, 19~7 - Garden City, Utah DO YOU WISH TO - ). � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/55">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/55</a> Purchasing Information Describe or link to information about purchasing copies of this item. To order photocopies, scans, or prints of this item for fair use purposes, please see Utah State University's Reproduction Order Form at: <a href="https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php">https://library.usu.edu/specol/using/copies.php</a> Digital Publisher List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online. Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library Date Digital Record the date the item was digitized. 2013 Conversion Specs Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, at 800 dpi. Archival file is PDF (800 dpi), display file is JPEG2000. Checksum 372804673 File Size Size of the file in bytes. 29603450 Bytes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public scoping meeting for the Logan Canyon environmental study Description An account of the resource Transcript from the public scoping meeting for the Logan Canyon environmental study held at City Hall in Garden City, Utah on March 10, 1986 where several spoke and answered questions. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hubbard, Ronald F. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mattson, Otto Brown, Ken Johnson, Dee Negus, Barry Peterson, Val Nielson, Bryce Seeholtzer, Ted Stringham, Bryce Flannery, John Preston, George Currel, Russ Wahlstrom, Owen Webb, Cathy Elliot, Ray Hillsman, Lynn Huffner, Don Weston, Todd Anderson, Jess Richardson, Howard Baumgartner, David Subject The topic of the resource United States Highway 89 Logan Canyon (Utah)--History Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Administrative records Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-03-10 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Garden City (Utah) United States Rich County (Utah) Utah Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1980-1989 20th century Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Sierra Club, Utah Chapter Archives, 1972-1986, COLL MSS 148 Series VIII Box 27 Folder 11 Is Referenced By A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource. View the inventory for this collection at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv03390</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Highway 89 Digital Collections Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MSS148VIIIB27_Fd11_Page_1.pdf Highway 89;