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Aerial postcard of Montpelier, Idaho, 1908
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Aerial real picture postcard of Montpeiler, Idaho. Written from Anna to her brother William Greaves.
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Greaves, William C.
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Logan (Utah)
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The Falls in Winter. Montpelier Canon, Montpelier, Idaho
��
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The Fall in Winter, Montpelier Canon, Montpelier, Idaho, 1909
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The Fall in Winter, Montpelier Canon, Montpelier, Idaho, 1909. Signed and inscribed on the back from Anna to William.
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Logan (Utah)
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1900-1909
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•
WE NEED YOUR HELP
We anticipate needing increased community
support. Please let us add your name to our
mailing list:
Name:
CITIZENS FOR A SAFE AND
SCENIC CANYON
Citizens for a
. Safe and Scenic Canyon
OUR EARTHLY TRUST:
WE
SUPPORT MAKING
LOGAN CANYON SAFE
• WIDENED BRIDGES
• MORE PULLOUTS
Address:
LOGAN
CANYON
• CLIMBINGrruRNING LANES
Phone:
• PARKING AREAS
MAKE IT SAFE
• MORE SIGNS
• BEITER MAINTENANCE
Please accept the enclosed donation: .
$5
$10
$20
$
I can help with
-----
WE
SUPPORT KEEPING
LOGAN CANYON BEAUTIFUL
• RESPONSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS
IN LOGAN CANYON
• PRESERVING ONE OF THE LAST,
BEST PLACES IN UTAH
Please return this form
and any donation to:
CSSC, Box 3501, Logan
Citizens for a Safe and
Scenic Canyon/CPLC
P.O. Box 3501, LOGAN, UT 84321
KEEP IT BEAUTIFUL
�.
11-- FOR A SAFE
CITIZENS
·
.
AND SCENIC CANYON
WHAT IS CSSC?
COMMON QUESTIONS
Citizens for a Safe and Scenic Canyon (fonnerly
Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon) is
an organization that is dedicated to providing a
safe highway through Logan Canyon while still
preserving its scenic beauty. We support making
the canyon safe by replacing and widening
bridges; constructing more pullouts for slow
drivers; adding several climbing lanes, turning
lanes, and parking areas; and putting in more and
better signage in the canyon . .
• Does CSSC advocate a total hands-otT
approach to Logan Canyon?
WHAT IS THE HISTORY?
NO! There is a real possibility that a wider road
with faster speeds will in fact increase both the
number and severity of accidents in the canyon.
For the last thirty years there has been a drive to
punch a wider, straighter, faster highway through
Logan Canyon. In 1961, five miles of the lower
canyon were "improved"; in 1968, six more--up
to the Right Hand Fork.
Under new federal regulations, UDOT
was required to research the environmental impacts of their construction plans. After a sevenyear study, they have come up with their "preferred alternative." Unfortunately, their study,
in the view of many, has been marked by slipshod
procedures, insufficient and incorrect data, and
lack of consideration for the environment.
Citizens for the Protection ·of Logan
Canyon conducted their own study and prepared
the Conservationists' Alternative, a road construction plan that proposes a safe canyon without
destroying its scenic beauty.
NO! We favor a gradual, go-slow approach to
working on the highway, beginning with the
replacement of dangerous, deteriorating bridges.
• Is the Utah Department of Transportation
(UDOT) "preferred" alternative safer?
• Will the savings in travel time significantly
benefit the neighboring communities?
NO! By their own figures, the "preferred alternative" will only reduce travel time from 48 to 43
minutes. It would take a lifetime of these 5minute savings to equal the 15-20 years of delays
and disruptions caused by this massive project.
• Will an improved highway promote economic development in Cache Valley?
NO! The disruption to the canyon will hurt
tourism, Cache Valley'S major economic asset.
WHAT DO THEY WANT?
Utah Department of Transportation wants to
obtain federal funds for a massive highway
project to tum the Logan Canyon road into a
commercial highway, at a cost to the public of
over $35 million dollars (CSSC's alternative
would cost $15 million)! UDOT predicts that the
project will take at least 10 years to complete,
with the real possibility that it will take as long as
15 to 20 years.
We only have to look at the destruction,
delays, and devastation to Sardine (Wellsville)
Canyon to get an inkling of what this project
In
would really be like in our backyard.
UDOT's plan, the road would be re-routed, on
average, once every three-quarters of a mile
throughout the length of the canyon. Huge cuts
are planned to achieve a straighter alignment and
substantially increased road width.
This massive project will be devastating
to the scenic beauty of Logan Canyon. Roadside
plants and forests will be replaced by unsightly
gashes on hillsides. In .the lower "improved"
section of the canyon, barren slopes have not revegetated yet, though the cuts were made 20 to 30
years ago.
Extra-wide shoulders (clear zones) of
22 feet will destroy the forest on each side of the
road, cutting a wide swath through the cottonwood, riverbirch and box elder trees that line the
river canyon. The river itselfwill be intruded on,
lined by 2,000 feet of "riprap" (chunks of rock
and cement). Logan River's wild and scenic
qualities will be destroyed.
�•
LOGAN c!ANYON:
Summarizing Two "Alternatives"
US-89 LOGAN CANYON
Accompanying this map is a table
comparing key goals of two alternatives
regarding the "development" of Logan
Canyon. These goals are listed by
canyon section.
o
2
•
�Alternative #1
UDOT Plan of Action
•
•
Alternative #2
ConseNationist Plan of Action
Go relatively light on the canyon between Right Hand Fork
and Lower Twin Bridge (4 miles). The road would be left at
its current width and alignment, but curb and gutter would be
added and several curves will be flattened. Burnt Bridge would
be widened to 34 feet, requiring river bank modification. The
road near Cottonwood Creek culvert would be raised 2 feet to
protect the road from occasional damage due to flooding .
I
Essentially leave the canyon between Right Hand Fork and
Lower Twin Bridge (4 miles) as it is presently. Improve signs
signaling advisory speeds and curve warnings. The road would
be left at its current width and alignment. Burnt Bridge would
be widened to 28 feet. The road near Cottonwood Creek
culvert would be widened to 28 feet and raised 1.5 feet to
protect the road from occasional damage due to flooding.
Substantially widen the road from Lower Twin Bridge to just
above Rick Springs (4 miles) from current 26 feet to 40-46
feet. Six curves would be cut and major parking areas would
be built at Temple Fork and Rick Springs. Upper and Lower
Twin Bridges would be moved upstream from their present
position and widened to 38 feet.
2
Move Upper and Lower Twin Bridges towards river to lessen
curve and widen to 28 feet, locating a slow vehicle turnout
where the present road cut goes through. Improved signs
signaling curves and intersection at Temple Fork. Widen road
at Ricks Springs to 28 feet, maintaining existing parking. Add
signs warning of pedestrian crossings.
Drastically widen the road from above Rick Springs to the
Rich County line (13 miles) . TAe road would be widened
from 26 to 47 feet for half the distance (6.5 miles) to allow for
passing lanes, with the remainder widened to 40 feet. Nearly
ten feet will be cut into the vertical rock face located after the
Beaver Creek area (milepost 399.1). There would be five curve
cuts and major construction at the Franklin Basin, Tony Grove,
Red Banks campground and Beaver Mountain turnoffs.
3
Add three climbing lanes and provide a 90 degree
intersection and deceleration lane to Beaver Mountain Road.
Improve intersection at Tony Grove. Replace the Tony Grove
Creek Bridge, Red Banks Bridge, Beaver Creek Bridge, Beaver
Creek Structure, and Amazon Hollow Structure without curve
cuts and widen to 28 feet. Provide signs and approaches at
the Bear Lake Overlook.
4
Improve signs on advisory speeds and curve warnings.
Provide active maintainance for the road. The road would
be left at its current width and alignment.
Essentially build a new road from the Rich County line to
Garden City (7 miles). There would be a continuous
passing lane from near Garden City to the Cache County line
(47 foot width) , 19 curve cuts, and substantial additional
construction.
I
2
3
4
Information cited: US Highway 89 Final Environmental Impact Statement.
�•
June 28, 1994
To: Dave Berg
From: Bruce Pendery
Re: Follow-up to last week's meeting
Enclosed are the "hot spots" we would appreciate receiving
narratives on.
I forgot to get a copy of the letter we sent out
to some of our selected supporters, but will get that to you
ASAP.
I know time may be a problem, but if its possible to get the
narratives to me by July 11 it would be helpful (address: 755
Canyon Rd., Logan, 84321). We will be having what should be our
last outreach program that evening, and the narrative would be
useful. We will be talking (probably via letter)to additional
people (ie, the vast majority of our supporters) after July II,
but that will be more to explain what we've been doing rather
than to get input on what we're doing.
•
•
I will call late this week or next to discuss a couple of things
with you.
I would like to find where we stand with getting a
copy of the ROD. That's critical to us.
I would also like to
discuss how the Forest Service feels about just amending relative
to the bridges, as well as a few other things .
�•
HOT SPOTS
Curve #5 MP 384 and Curve # 29 MP 387. How will the accident
studies be handled and what efforts will be made to reduce the
aesthetic impacts of these cuts while also avoiding the river?
Lower Twin Bridge, The Dugway, Upper Twin Bridge. What efforts
will be made to minimize the size of cuts and associated
aesthetic impacts? What efforts will be made to minimize any
alignment shift to Upper Twin Bridge? How will the cuts along
the Dugway be handled to minimize aesthetic impacts and the size
of the cut?
Temple Fork. Describe how the decision process will work
relative to whether a "short" up-canyon turning lane is possible.
How will impacts to the river and aesthetics be minimized,
considering also the need to "straighten" the angle at which the
Forest Road intersects the highway.
Passing Lanes in the lower Upper Canyon of Section Two (see your
letter of 3/4\94, item 3). Elaborate as much as you can on how,
when, where, if, etc. the decision to put in these passing lanes
will be made.
Beaver Creek, Franklin Basin Bridge, Amazon Hollow Bridge.
Elaborate as much as you can on what efforts will be made to
minimize riparian impacts. Especially describe any anticipated
retaining walls or intrusions on the rivers.
•
Tonv Grove, Beaver Mountain, and Franklin Basin Intersections.
Elaborate as much as you can on what efforts will be made to
minimize the magnitude and/or impacts of these activities.
Passinq Lane Above Beaver Mountain turnoff, especially as it
relates to the old-growth forest and curves 69, 70, and 71. To
what degree can impacts on the forest be minimized; has an
alignment shift been approved? How will aesthetic impacts of
this climbing lane be minimized, especially to what degree will
the climbing lane involve cutting into the hill as opposed to
filling?
Curve 85 Old Growth Forest near Limber Pine. What options exist
to minimize impacts to this area, and particularly can the
passing lane be ended a little sooner--say near the Sunrise
Campground? Be as specific as possible. As I mentioned, this is
a critical site to many people and we will need to discuss it
fully at our next meeting.
How will the old road from the Limber Pine Summit to Garden City
be Handled? That is, people want to know if old sections of road
in areas where a new alignment is created will simply be
abandoned, or will the pavement be torn up and the soil
revegetated?
•
.
�•
•
•
Portion of Section 1b Above Ricks Springs. Describe as fully as
possible how impacts to riparian habitats will be avoided in this
area.
Mitioation. Discuss each of the following a fully as possible:
-What is laydown fencing contemplated in the Tony Grove area
and is it really needed, especially since the Forest Service will
soon own the land and possibly reduces livestock numbers
-Many people are concerned that mitigation is simply another
big construction project with nearly as many impacts as the
construction project prompting the mitigation. How do you
respond to this, and what can be done to alleviate this concern?
-How will rip-rap at bridges be minimized or better yet
avoided altogether.
-To what degree will contractors and especially equipment
operators be given training to ensure they minimize the impacts
their machines can have.
-Could UDOT include the following publication as the basis
for its construction:
"National Cooperative Research Report 221.
Transportation Research Board. Erosion Control During Highway
Construction. Manual on Principles and Practices" 1980. AASHTO
and FHWA sponsored. Or is there a more up-to-date publication
UDOT would specifically use as a guide?
-To what extent will not only native vegetation be used, but
an attempt be made to mimic existing plant communities.
-To what degree will followup be made to ensure mitigation
actually works, and to what degree will UDOT "do what it takes"
to make mitigation work? Especially consider vegetation.
-How will excess rubble be handled.
-How will staging areas be handled .
�•
August 9 , 1994
Mr. Dave Berg
UDOT
Salt Lake City UT
Dear Mr Berg,
These comments are by no means encyclopedic; a brief review
of only scattered sections of these documents revealed so many
problems that I have not even been able to do a through reading
of it. While there is much progress that has been made since last
December, there is still much to be disappointed about in these
documents.
•
The purpose and need section of the ROD (Appendix A)
is
again one of the most flawed" sections of this document.
This appendix presents the first description on how traffic
flows for accident rates were calculated (this information was
never presented in the Technical memorandums); thus this is the
first opportunity for comment (and literally no more than 5
members of the public have had access to this new information).
As we discussed in our August 1 meeting, there are fundamental
problems with the data and the methodology which call into
question whether any accident rate data should be presented in
the EIS or ROD.
•
1.
Traffic flows in the "improved" section (mp 374.64-378)
are artificially inflated by the inclusion of the
14,000 AADT adjacent to Utah State University (outside
�•
Flint comment s
of th e canyon and outside of the lIimproved ll section
mention ed above). This hig h AADT is used in the
weight ed average for this section, thus the accident
rate is ar tificially redu ced . The true accident rate
for this lIimproved" section is likely 3 or 4 times
higher th an what your document shows.
2. The mp 37 8 - 383.3 section had the counter in it
orig i na lly and traffic flow presented in the FEIS is
adjuste d to this location even though the counter is
currently located in Rich county. This is stated on
•
page 3 of the Appendix A, and you agreed that it was
correct. Thus the traffic flow to be used in
calculating accident rates in this section is near 1800
rath e r than over 3000. Simply saying that the AADT is
3000 in the Utah Road Files (Appen dix A p. 3) does not
make it correct. Again, the true accident rate in this
improved section is much higher than that shown in
AppendixA.
3. The ta ble on page 5 of Appendix A has a similar problem:
The true traffic flow is much lower than shown in the
table, thus the fatality rate for the Lower Canyon is
much higher than shown and may be the highest in the
•
Canyon.
2
�Flint comments
3
4. As we dis c ussed in our August 1 meet i ng, there are
•
fortunatel y so few fat alities th a t their distri bu tion
may be s omewhat random. A better perspective on
acciden t severity may be gained by examining the injury
accident rate.
5. An attempt is made on p. 2 of the Appendix to justify
using lower traffic flo ws in recent years to calculate
accident rates even thou g h it is claimed elsewhere that
traf fic is increasing. Rather than dispute this point
by point, let us look at your flow data. In recent
years you have traffic increasing in the Lower Canyon
and decreasing in much of the rest of the canyon. Thus
what you are saying here is that the fundamental
characte~
•
of vehicle use of this roadway has changed;
most of the traffic only drives up into the Lower
Canyon and then turns around and goes back out. How do
you explain this? Isn't it readily apparent that this
oddity is caused by your inflation of the traffic flows
for the Lower Canyon?
To justify conclusions, as in #1 above, we are told that
"standard methods" are used, that they are "accurate" and based
on "professional methods"
(all on p. 3), yet saying this does not
make an incorrect analysis right . this type of pontificating
should be stricken from the ROD; the methods of analysis should
•
�•
Flint comments
4
be able to stand up on their own.
Appendi x p. 2: Here a claim is made that a signing project
was done in '86. A review of the public comments (Lanner letter
page 9-74 of FEI S) suggests th a t the signing was completed in '83
rather than ' 8 6. From personal recollection (since '86 was the
year the EIS started), all I remember happening in '86 was that a
contractor was hired to replace delineators. They were placed
blindly according to some "standard", consequently most de-facto
turnouts were blocked until some unfortunate drivers ran over the
things. Cou ld you provide more details on the signing project?
•
Specifically, check the year a nd describe the project .
We have never received an explanation why the expected
accident rate is higher for the "improved" sections (Table 1-2).
If "improvement" raises the expectation of accidents, then we
don't want t o do it.
I am disappointed that there is still confusion on 4(f) site
#7. Perhaps this confusion would not have occurred if the public
was allowed some input into the 4(f) site selection process.
Appendix A h a s site 7 at 391.6, the ROD (p. 5) says the passing
lane starts a t 391.6. A passing lane should not start at a
heavily used recreational turnout such as this; one can foresee
•
safety problems as different up-canyon vehicles simultaneously
try to pass and make left turns.
�Flint comments
The biological assessme nt in Ap pendix A lists Dr a ba maguirei
as "known onl y f rom Bo x Eld er a nd Heber c ounties" yet Shaw (1989,
Vascu la r Plant s o f Northern Utah) also l i s ts it in Cache County.
Can you ac c o u n t for this d is c re pancy ? Al so, why is there no
mention o f t he newly describe d spec i es of Viola that we mentioned
in earlier cor respondence? It a ppea r s en d emic to Logan Canyon.
In the ROD itself (p. 4) sta tes that the Upper Middle Canyon
will serve a s a transition reg ion to the 40' pavement width of
the Upper Canyon. Note that, wi th the reduction of the pavement
in the Ton y Gr ove flats and Beaver Cr eek areas to 34', this logic
is no longe r v alid.
The RO D (p. 7) states th a t the Conservationists' Alternative
•
would provide 28' wide bridges. As I explained last year at the
transportation commission me et i ng, we initially selected 28'
because your e ngineers selected i t for the spot improvement
alternative. I spent a conside r able amount of time at that
commission meeting explaining that we had no problem with wider
bridges. Did I take a day off work to drive to Salt Lake city for
this meeting and accomplish nothing? Were all the commissioners
and your staff asleep?
The ROD on page 7 also neglects to mention that we proposed
(from the very beginning) that the Beaver Mountain intersection
be improved, along with a right turn lane at Right Fork. Thus the
•
�•
Flint comments
6
Conservatio n ists' Alternat ive prop o s e s 3 intersection
improvement s ye t you only credit us wi th one. You talk of
"unresol v e d s a fety concerns a t Red Ba nks Campground yet we h a ve
never seen an y documentation o f this.
In short, you are trying
to make our al ternative appea r to be vir tually "no action".
We
expressed th es e concerns befo re (s e page 6 0 of Appendix B) and
you put mo re effort into den y ing our concerns than in correcting
the problem.
Appendi x B continues the on g oing i g noring of concerns which
has plagued this EIS since its inception. As an example, on p57,
I spelled out i n great detail how re a listic alternative routes
~
should be considered (the world does not focus on Garden City as
its ultimate destination, as you imply). For this effort, I am
greeted with non-response #4. So was John Carter on p. 79.
Or
look again at my letter at response #3. I asked why the response
PI02 was not reflected in the text of the EIS. This is a valid
question an d i t was ignored. You did th e damage - decision makers
that read the text of the FEIS will not get the information that
was in PI02. How do you make up for this? Or look at John
Sigler's letter. Whoever wrote response #6 doesn't seem to have a
clue how citations are used in technical documents. Or look at
how the det a iled comments of Kate Boyes were ignored with an 8
word non-r esponse .
•
In summary, the problems which we have pointed out before
�Flint comments
still persi st . Rather than point out eac h one in great detail,
let me suggest you go back to the comments submitted throughout
the past 8 ye ars and provide an analysis
rather than a defensive posture.
from an objective
That would go a long way toward
building the trust that is needed for this project to succeed.
Sincerely,
Steve Flint
•
•
�0 -1 :
~ -I FTl
FF'Clll
M E M 0 RAN DUM
TO:
Bruce pendery
FROM:
Appel & Mattsson
DATE:
August 16, 1994
RE:
Time for Filing Lawsuit under NEPA
Introduction
You asked that we determine whether there
limitations
for
f:'ling
a
claim 1
NEPA
to
a
~s
assist
statute of
your
group
in
determining when and if to bring a lawsuit.
The
•
short:
ar.swer
contain a statute
be brought.
See
also,
contain
question
your
Jones v. Gordon, 621 F. S upp.
Sierra
a
club
Oua~ity
( "NEPA and the NFY'A
v.
Penfold,
statute
II
~o~~rts
of
10
(D. Alaska 1985) .
2.20
1307,
1315
(9th
limitat~on.~ );
Citizens
for
do not set
II )
II
Jones, supra, at p. 10.
rout~nely
See also, Park
Inc. v. U. S . Department of Agriculture,
817 F . 2d 609,617 ; lOth Cir . 1987)
•
not
have relied upon the doct.rine of laches to
Coun t y Resource Council,
have
857
'"7,
[National Forest Management Act]
bar stale (NEPA] s·,:i ts .
actions
NEPA does
v. U.S., 731 F . Supp . 970, 992 (D.Colo. 1989)
forth a stat.ute of limitations.
However,
that
NEPA nor the APA [Administrative Procedure Act]
specif~c
Environmental
is
c: limitations (or time limit) by which suit must
("Neithe~
Cir.1988)
to
(lltimelir.ess challenges to NEPA
involved analysis under
the doctrine of
If claims are brought under other st:atutes or laws,
statutes of li mitat:ion may be different..
the
�FF'()fl
0 -1 : 2 -1 F'f"1
11_1
M E M 0 RAN DUM
TO:
Bruce pendery
FROM:
Appel & Mattsson
DATE:
August 16, 1994
RE:
Time for Filing Lawsuit under NEPA
Introduction
You asked that we determine whether ther e
limitations
for
f:'ling
NEPA claim 1
a
to
a
~s
assist
statute of
your
group
NEPA
does
in
determining when and if to bring a lawsuit.
The
•
shor'c
ar.swer
contain a statute
be brought.
See
also,
contain
question
your
c= limitations
Sierra
a
Club
that
not
Penfold,
857
'7,
10
(D. Alaska 1985) .
P.20
1307,
1315
(9th
NEPA nor the APA [Administrative Procedure Act]
specif:'c
Environmental
v.
is
(or time limit ) by which suit must
Jones v. Gordon, 621 F . S u pp.
("Neithe~
Cir .1988)
to
Oua~ity
statute
of
limitat:on.");
Citizens
for
v. U.S., 731 F.Supp . 970, 992 (D.Colo. 1989)
( "NEPA and the NF:VA [National Forest Management Act]
do not set
forth a statute of limitations.")
However,
"co~~rts
have relied upon the doct.rine of laches to
bar stale (NEPA] s ', :i ts. "
County Resource Council,
Jones, supra, at p. 10.
Inc . v. U. S . Department of Agriculture,
817 F . 2d 609,617 i lOth Cir. 1987)
•
actions
have
See also, Park
(lltimelir.es6 challenges to NEPA
rout:"nely involved analysis under
the doctrine of
If claims are brought under other st.atutes or laws ,
statutes of l i mitation may be different.
the
�laches . " )
which,
Laches is defined as neglect t o assert a right or claim
taken
together
with
the
lapse
of
time
and
circumstances causes prejudice to the adverse party.
other
~
Black's Law
Dictionarv.
Laches
According
environmental
to
courts
that
have
addressed
the
issue,
act i.on may be barred by the equi table de fense
an
of
laches if "(1) there has been unreasonable delay in bringing suit,
and (2) the party asserting the defense has been prejudiced by the
delay. "
Citizens for Environmental Quality v . U.S.,
970,
(D.Colo . 1989)
687
992
F.2d 1324,
Colorado
1338
District
731 F.Supp.
(citing Jicarilla Apache Tribe v. Andrus,
(lOth Cir.
Court
In Citizens,
1982).
held
that
there
had
supra,
been
the
neither
unreasonable delay nor sufficient prejudice for the doctrine of
laches
to apply.
The court
determined
that
the
case
had been
brought within a "reasonable time after application of regulations
at
issue
in
case"
rd. ac 993.
government.
Inc. v. U.
[the]
S.
and
there
was
no
prejudice
to
•
the
See also, Park County Resource Council,
DeDartment of Agriculture,
817 F.2d 609,
617
(10th
Cir. 1987).
Courts have concluded that "(l ) aches must be invoked sparingly
environm~ntal
in
~he
cases because ordinarily the plaintiff will not be
only victim of alleged environmental damage .
A less grudging
application of the doctrine might defeat Congress's environmental
pol icy . "
Park Cou::ty Resource Council, Inc. v. U. S. Department of
Agriculture,
817
F.2d
609,
617
2
(10th
Cir .
1987)
(citing
•
�Preservation Coalition, In c. v. Pierce, 66 7 F.2d 851, 854 (9th Cir.
1982).
However, there are instances whe n cou rts h ave precluded NEPA
c laims under the doctrine o f laches .
Andrus,
687 F.2d 132 4 ,
1338
In Jicarilla
(lOth Cir.
1982 ) ,
Apac~e
Tribe v.
the Tenth Circuit
Cou rt of Appeals held that there had been an unreasonable delay by
the Jicarilla Apache Tribe in aSSerting its NEPA claim.
1 13 8.
1d.
at
The Tribe brought suit in April 1976 to contest four lease
sa l es that took place between April
1 9 70
and September
1972.
rd.
This was found to be an unreasonable delay.
The Court also found that the delay in bringing suit resulted
1.n
prejudice to the lessees:
[T]he delay resulted in prejudice to the lessee defendants.
Because they had no notice that anything was amiss with their
Jicarilla leases until the institution of this sui~, they have
invested wel l over $12 million in lease in the fo~m of bonus
payments,
rentals,
administrat i ve overhead costs,
plus
exploration, d~illing and production costs. Were ~hey to lose
their leases ; much of that investment would be lost, not to
mention the :OS5 of future profits based on investments
already made .
•
rd. at 1339.
v.
Hodel,
679
See also, National Parks
F . Supp.
49,
54
&
(D.D.C.
Conservation
1987)
~.ssociation
( laches
bars
the
act io n)
A
similar argument may be made
c itiz ens wait too
~ong
by
to bring suit.
UDOT
You
co"trac':ors if the
mentioned
that
your
group may want to monitor the project and then bring suit if the
project does not meet with your expectations.
UDCT, the
•
.::ontra.:: to~s
The risk is that
and/or the Federa l Highway Adminis:ration may
claim un reasonab le delay and prejudice .
3
�In e v aluating whether to bring suit,
t here are other issues
yo u r group should consider including the pro c ess for bringing suit
and
defenses
available
to
the
defendants
including
standing.
•
ripeness, exhaustion of administrative remedies and mootness .
The Complaint
The
typical
NEPA case begins
wi th
the
Plaint iff
f i 1 ing a
Complaint in federal court seeking both declaratory and injunctive
relief.
The Complaint gener31ly names the various federal agencies
and officials, state officials responsible for actions alleged to
violate
NEPA
as defendants.
Law of Environmental
Protect ion.
§9.01[3)[b).
In
U.S.
NEPA
at:orney represents the federal agency .
Plaintiffs
process.
may
cases. either the Department of Justice or the local
to move
for
an
injunction
Id.
It
1.S
common for
in order to speed. up
the
However, if the Plaintiff loses the injunction, the case
become
moot
9 . 01 (3] [b] (ivJ .
Slnce
It
the
project
will
be
built.
at
•
if orten advisable to consolidate injunction
hearing and. hearing on the merits for that l'eason.
Id.
Venue
Plaintiff can bring suit.
where cause of action arose,
( 3)
(1)
where defendant
resides,
(2)
when real property involved, where
it is si:uated. or (4) where plaintiff resides if real property is
not in"·cl ved.
28 U.S.C.A.
51391(e)
In this case,
suit would be
brought in the Federal District Court for the State of Utah .
4
•
�•
Standing
To bring a NEPA suit, your group (and its members) must have
standing.
To prove standing, members of y our group must show:
(1)
injury in fact and (2) that his/her interests are within the zone
of
interests
intended
to
be
protected
by
the
constitutional provisions on which the claim is based."
Garrett,
971 F.2d 936,
942
statute
or
Specter v.
(3rd Cir . 1992 ) .
Environmental as well as economic interests allow a plaintiff
to meet the threshold requirement allowing him / her to bring suit as
long
as
injury
Complaint
must
is
particularized
state
that
to
those
Plaintiff
plaintiffs.
uses
and
environmental amenity alleged to be threatened .
is an organization,
•
~,
enJOYS
The
the
If the Plaintiff
its members must allege personal threat.
Sierra Club v. Morton, 405 U.S. 727 (1972).
See
But see, Lujan
v. National Wildlif= Federation, 110 S . Ct . 3177 (1990)
(the:r-e must
be an injury in fact and a connection of plaintiff to it.)
Ripeness
A procedural defense often raised by agencies
is not ripe.
This doctrine is generally used to
being brought too early in the process.
1S
pr~vent
that a case
suits from
Ripeness should not be an
1ssue 1n your case.
According
to
40
C . F.R.
§1500.3,
a
lawsuit
should
not
be
brought before a final EIS--"judicial review of agency compliance
with these regulations
[should]
n0t occur befo:r-e any agency has
filed the final EIS or has made a final finding cf no significant
•
impact when such a
finding will result
5
in action affecting the
�enviro nment
injury."
or
P,D';"
T[I
FF'IJr"
IJ8- 1 '=.-1 :<:'14 O.:J : 26Pr']
ta~es
action
that
will
result
in
•
irrepar~ble
See als8, Sierra Club v. MOLTon, 514 F.Supp . 856 (1975 )
(generally challenges to individual pro jects under NEPA can only be
brough t after fina: agency approval of the project ) ; Environmental
Rights Coalition v . Austin, 780 F.Supp. 5844
Ind. 1991)
(S.D.
(EA
not completed therefore case not ripe. )
Inapplicability of NEPA
~lother
NEPA
does
defe~se
raised by defendants sued under NEPA is that
apply.
not
§9. 01 [3J [bJ [viJ [ El
Law
of
En'Ji ronmental
Protection,
Although this defense is rarely successful, it
is a factor to be considered .
Any lawsuit brought by your group '
must state specific violations of law and / or statute.
•
Exhaustion of Administrative Remedies
Government
agencies
have
also
used
the
defense
that
a
plaintiff has fai:ed to exhaust his / her administrative remedies,
but Courts have been reluctant to penalize Plaintiffs for tardily
bringing to an agency's attention what
have known from
Council
v.
i~s
own studies.
See
~he
agency itself should
~.,
Pari-: County Resourc,,=
U. S . . Gepartment of Agriculture, 817 F.2d 609, 619 (10 th
Cir . 1987 )
Mootness
Anot.her de:e::.se used in NEPA cases is mootness.
A
moot when "iz nc :onger presents a justiciable controversy
l.SSUeS
invol vea
Dicticnarv.
If
~ave
:~e
become
academic
or
UDOT project gets toe far
- ..
,
-
...
'::'.u.l. .....
1S
bQca~se
Black's
dead ."
alo~g,
cas~
:'-aw
your group may
of
:-:1OC: ::ess
.
•
�•
Conclusion
In determining when and if to bring a NEPA claim. your group
must weigh competing factors.
If your group decides to bring suit and does not want risk
being
dismissed
based
on
the
doctrine
of
laches,
the
safest
approach is to file suit before the project begins and before bids
are requested .
costly
and
The downside of this approach is that litigation
time
consuming
adversary to UDOT.
any other
filing
suit
you
become
an
agency or person) has violated NEPA or other
regulat~ons
The other
by
Your group would have to prove how UDOT (anci
appropri~te
applicable
and
lS
opt~on
or law.
is to monitor the
fi~st
phase of the
projec~
and to bring suit later if the project does not meet with your
•
approval and expectations.
may find that
the defendants
the~e
The risk in cioing this is that a court
has been unreasonable delay and prejudice
and will
dismiss
your
lawsuit.
The
benef i
~
lD.
waiting is that you may determine a lawsui: is not necessary.
In either case,
if a lawsuit is filed. members of your
gro~p
must be able to show that the violation or action personally
adversely impacts them.
a~d
Without standing. your group's claims wil:
be dismissed.
The third opt ~on is to come to an
~gree;-;'1en~
wi th UDOT (and an:'
other relevant c;.ger.cl.es or pel'sons) by '. . . hich your group would be
allowed to monitor and have some control v'ller the project.
ment ioned that UDeT wants
•
This may be
advisa~le
YOU1-
You
gl-oup to delay bringing a lawsu':'t. .
as long as your
7
gro~p
receives a benefit and
�not lose the right to bring suit in the future.
This is an o ve~view of some factors to consider in making your
decision.
Have yC'...ir group think them over carefully.
have
this,
done
... e
can discuss
the matter
further
and
Once you
jointly
•
determine which ap~~oach is best .
•
•
8
"
-
�,
\
August 12, 1994
Mr. Dave Berg
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, Utah 84119
Dear Dave:
Enclosed are the responses of Bruce Pendery, Steve Flint,
and Shawn Swaner to the working copy of the Logan Canyon Highway
Record of Decision (ROD) that you provided us with. We thank you
for the opportunity to review the ROD before it is signed.
Sincerely,
Bruce Pendery
cc: Nathan Hult
Jeff Appel
EPA Denver Office
EPA Washington Office
FHWA Region Office
FHWA Washington Office
�"
COMMENTS OF BRUCE PENDERY
REASONS WHY A SUPPLEMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT (SEIS)
SHOULD BE PREPARED
The extreme deficiencies in the Logan Canyon Draft and Final
Environmental Impact Statements (DEIS and FEIS) that indicate an
SEIS should be prepared have been brought to your attention
previously (see letters from EPA, Haley and Stolebarger, and
Appel and Mattsson, among others, submitted in response to the
DEIS and FEIS).
More particularly, the letter from Appel and
Mattsson (see Appendix B of the ROD) pointed out that this whole
process has been "out of sync" with what NEPA requires since the
DEIS was essentially a scoping document, the FEIS functioned as
DEIS, and so forth.
This is not a matter of quibbling over details.
At the core
of the NEPA process is a policy that decisions significantly
affecting the human environment will not be made arbitrarily and
capriciously, and will be made with opportunities for informed
public participation.
By placing the whole NEPA process with
regard to Logan Canyon out of sync, UDOT has violated those
fundamental principles, thus the need for an SEIS.
Safety provides a major illustration for this contention.
Safety is a purpose and need identified for this project (see
ROD, FEIS, DEIS).
to the project.
It is not a peripheral concern, it is central
It is not a stretch to say that for many people
the whole Logan Canyon project boils down to weighing
environmental impacts of the project versus safety impacts.
1
Yet
�'.
, ~
the safety data which are used to support and rationalize the
safety purpose and need (and the attendant preferred alternative)
have been and continue to be seriously in error.
As early as a 1986 public hearing, UDOT attempted to present
incorrect safety data to the public as a justification for the
project, despite knowing the data were flawed.
Environmentalists
were forced to point this error out at the public hearing so as
to get UDOT not to use it.
And even at this late date in the
process, the safety data in the FEIS has had to be recalculated
for presentation in the ROD because once again environmentalists
pointed out the obvious flaws plaguing the data presented in the
FEIS (see Bridgerland Audubon Society, Citizens for the
Protection of Logan Canyon, and Ron Lanner letters in ROD
Appendix B).
Thus, the safety data in the ROD is new information
that has never been presented to the public (see Appendix A of
the ROD as well as the ROD itself which have large sections
devoted to explaining what went wrong with the safety analysis in
the FEIS).
Moreover, and most shockingly, the safety data in the
ROD are still wrong, as the letter from Steve Flint, contained
herein, points out.
So at this almost terminal date in the NEPA process we still
have flawed data being used to support a major purpose and need
for the Logan Canyon Project.
And the significance of this is
that informed public participation in this process cannot take
place.
All the hundreds of people who commented on the DEIS and
FEIS were presented with safety information that was wrong, as
2
�the need to correct this information in the ROD demonstrates.
And the ROD--even if the safety data in it were now correct--will
not be seen by the vast majority of people who are concerned
about this project.
ROD's--almost by definition--are not
intended to be vehicles for public participation.
Thus, the
significance of UDOT's out of sync approach to the NEPA process
becomes clear: not only is the process out of sync, but with each
step up the NEPA ladder toward project approval fewer and fewer
people are able to review the project, and those who previously
reviewed the project were presented with incorrect data
purporting to support UDOT's preferred alternative.
Therefore,
an SEIS is needed not only because the data presented have been
repeatedly wrong in the past, but also because each time UDOT
presents the "corrected" data, fewer people are able to
participate in the evaluating the decision the data supposedly
supports.
UDOT tries to avoid the need for preparing an SEIS, with its
attendant wide-ranging public participation, by stating that
certain individuals have been closely involved in the development
of the modified preferred alternative (see, e.g., ROD Appendix B
page 39, but this same statement appears in numerous other places
in the ROD).
But involving five individuals (Bruce Pendery,
Shawn Swaner, Steve Flint, Nathan Hult, Jeff Appel) in this
process--while greatly appreciated and we believe productive-simply cannot substitute for full-scale public involvement in an
SEIS process.
As has become clear recently, public sentiment
3
�regarding this project is simply too diverse and widespread to
believe that the above five people adequately provide for "public
involvement" when a basic purpose and need for the project has
never been adequately presented to the public.
While we are
viewed as knowledgeable about this project in the environmental
community and to some extent are considered leaders, we simply
cannot and do not represent the concerns of the hundreds--perhaps
thousands--of people concerned about Logan Canyon.
If UDOT wants
informed public participation in this NEPA process it must
provide for that via and SEIS.
In addition to the fact informed public participation has
been hampered, UDOT's modified preferred alternative is a
arbitrary and capricious decision.
The DEIS, FEIS, and ROD all
make much of the fact safety will be improved if the preferred
alternative is implemented.
But what basis can there be for that
assertion when the information it is based on has been flawed
since at least 1986 and continues to be flawed?
I have largely exhausted the topic of why an SEIS is needed.
However, I will point out that the same analysis applies to 4(f)
sites and to wildlife.
The 4(f) documentation in the FEIS was
also wrong in a number of instances and a has had to be corrected
(see ROD Appendix A, 4(f) Map section, as well as the ROD
itself).
Likewise, UDOT presented essentially no information in
the FEIS about the numerous sensitive species in Logan Canyon
(see ROD Appendix B pages 28 and 35).
The ROD contains some
information on these species (see ROD Appendix A, USFS Biological
4
�Assessment).
Thus, just as for safety, informed public
participation could not take place in regard to these critical
issues because the information was wrong or absent.
Moreover,
simply presenting the information in the largely nonpublic ROD
phase of the NEPA process does not correct the problem.
CURRENT LEVEL OF ACCEPTANCE OF THE MODIFIED PREFERRED ALTERNATIVE
WITHIN THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY
Repeatedly in the ROD UDOT states that consensus has been
reached with the environmental community with regards to the
modified preferred alternative.
That is an incorrect statement,
which we have made clear to UDOT.
Not only is it incorrect, it
makes it more unlikely compromise will be reached because those
most opposed to the project would deeply resent UDOT unilaterally
announcing that consensus exists.
Let me be clear.
discussions with UDOT.
Since last December we have had a several
The tone of those meetings has been
constructive and positive.
I personally want that process to
continue because I believe compromise is preferable to
confrontation.
However, it is my opinion that a fully acceptable
compromise has not been reached yet.
Let me explain why.
As the modified preferred alternative stands,
conservationists would get most of what they want in 14% of the
canyon (road stays on current width and alignment between
mileposts 383.5 to 387.5, although there could be some curve cuts
we don't believe are necessary).
UDOT gets everything it wants
5
�.
t
in 42% of the canyon (full U.S. highway standard between
mileposts 399.8 to 411.8, with almost 8 miles of that 12 miles
having a passing lane).
Neither UDOT or conservationists get
exactly what they want in 43% of the project area (mileposts
387.5 to 399.8).
At a meeting in early July Dave Berg asked me how far along
toward compromise we were.
Based on the above considerations, I
said I thought we were 75% of the way there.
about where we still stand.
I believe that's
Seventy-five percent of a potential
compromise does not equal compromise, let alone consensus.
Moreover, as we found out at a meeting we convened in July there
is a significant group of conservationists in Cache Valley who
believe we are not even seventy-five percent of the way toward
compromise. This information was conveyed to UDOT in a timely
manner.
To summarize, I believe that a generally acceptable
compromise is possible, but it can only be reached by continued
hard work seeking to narrow the differences that still exist, not
by premature and unilateral statements that consensus has been
reached.
RESPONSE TO BRIDGERLAND AUDUBON LETTER (APPENDIX B PAGE 16)
The Bridgerland Audubon Society (BAS) provided extensive
comments on the FEIS.
I was the author of that letter, although
I no longer hold an official position with BAS.
Unfortunately, I
believe most of the concerns that were raised in the BAS letter
were dismissed with conclusory statements using circular
6
�.,
reasoning.
While UDOT may feel it has adequately addressed this
letter, I hope the FHWA and EPA will make an independent
assessment of these concerns and how well UDOT has responded to
them.
What follows are items related to the BAS letter that I
feel are particularly significant.
It is not nearly an
exhaustive list.
1.
Since AASHTO allows for design exceptions, they are not
genuinely standards.
Thus, the "written-in-stone" portrayal UDOT
has given to the public over the years is incorrect.
Moreover,
UDOT still fails to state what legal authority AASHTO has,
perhaps because it has no legal authority (Appendix B, page 17).
2.
On Appendix B page 25 it is stated that treatment of
clear zones has been more clearly defined in the ROD.
Even if
true, this is yet another case of not presenting the public with
correct (or clear) information until the public is largely no
longer part of the process.
prepare an SEIS.
That is, its yet another reason to
Moreover, BAS Table 3 was correct, what was
wrong was that UDOT had failed to explain what "typical improved
area" means in its FEIS, thus defeating informed public
participation.
3.
On Appendix B page 27, UDOT indicates that recreation
isn't emphasized in Logan Canyon, and that it isn't a recreation
area.
That analysis ignores the Forest Service signs welcoming
visitors to the "Logan Canyon Recreation Area," it ignores the
Forest Service's attempts to get highway enhancement funds to
show off Logan Canyon's many recreational attractions, it ignores
7
�. \;
the brown (i.e., recreational) FHWA or UDOT signs pointing the
way to Logan Canyon, it ignores the clear direction in the Forest
plan that Logan Canyon will be managed primarily for recreation.
Under UDOT's constrained analysis, the Sawtooth National
Recreation Area (also managed by the Forest Service) would not be
a recreation area because its not absolutely only used for
recreation (grazing is allowed in some areas).
I prefer the more
pragmatic duck test: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,
etc., it is a duck.
area.
Under that test Logan Canyon is a recreation
And neither UDOT or the Forest Service can reinterpret the
law in an inappropriately constrained way--and the law makes it
clear that when the managing agency designates an area a
recreation area in its plans, that area must be treated as a 4(f)
area.
4.
On Appendix B page 28 UDOT frets about having to
concern itself with "hundreds" of species.
Only 27 species were
asked about, and now with the public largely removed from this
process something has finally been said about them (see Appendix
A, USFS Biological Assessment).
Moreover, not only does the
Forest Service have to do a biological assessment before a
decision document is signed, it must do the assessment before the
decision is made which certainly has not been the case here.
5.
UDOT says on Appendix B page 29 only a Forest Plan
Amendment will be required, not a revision.
However,
conservationists have long contended a much more significant
revision will be required.
Revisions are required when the basic
8
�output of goods and services from a forest are altered.
I
believe the modified preferred alternative will meet that test by
transforming Logan Canyon into yet another Wasatch-Cache National
Forest high-speed conduit, rather than the singular peaceful and
quiet ride in a major canyon that it currently is.
In fact,
Logan Canyon's beauty is not only of forest-wide singularity, it
is of national significance, as a soon-to-be-released national
article will demonstrate.
6.
Some pages are duplicated incorrectly beginning on
about Appendix B page 29 to 31.
7.
While the Forest Service has evaluated the Logan River
for Wild and Scenic status (Appendix B pages 29 to 31), it has
also said that new information could cause a reevaluation.
Such
information was recently provided by Mr. Drew Parkin who is one
of the nation's premier experts on wild and scenic rivers.
He
concluded most of the Logan River within the highway project area
qualifies as a recreational river.
to the Forest Service.
His report has been submitted
UDOT should more fully consider the
ramifications of such a designation, and not just state that
there will be no effect due to the project.
8.
Appendix B page 32 indicates it would be speculative to
worry about land use changes if the land exchange occurs.
The
land exchange will occur because authorizing legislation has been
passed by Congress and signed by the President.
And to compare
Forest Service land use policy with Utah State Lands Board policy
is like comparing night and day (I'll leave it to you to decide
9
�,
.
which is the benighted agency).
There will be changes in land
management and it is disingenuous to ignore that fact.
In
particular, the need for " laydown" fencing should be reconsidered
because it is unlikely there will be cows to keep off the
highway.
9.
On Appendix B page 33 UDOT responds improperly to the
4(f) issues that are raised.
As indicated above, all of Logan
Canyon is a recreation area, its not a few parking sites.
Moreover, the reason for selecting the 4(f) sites was not to
protect parking, but rather to protect aesthetics, hiking, and
exploration.
These are the protected features or activities (see
Appendix B page 34).
Furthermore, not only is the conservationists' alternative
feasible and prudent, it also does not produce any genuinely
unusual situations precluding its selection.
And when a feasible
and prudent alternative fails to meet transportation needs, the
needs must be reassessed, which UDOT has not done.
Failure to
meet transportation needs does not mean an alternative
automatically causes an unusual situation precluding its
selection.
10.
The concerns raised on Appendix B page 35 are indeed
specific to the Logan Canyon Highway project since these species
occur nowhere else, and failure to address the question runs
contrary to Eugene Kleckley's (FHWA) written assurance that all
of our concerns would be addressed.
11.
Over the years UDOT has repeatedly refused to consider
10
�,.
slow vehicle turnouts as an alternative to passing lanes.
However, these are a practicable alternative to the passing lanes
contemplated between mileposts 391.6 to about milepost 396.5 that
would avoid wetlands impacts (see Appendix B page 36 and ROD
pages 32 to 34).
As we have often pointed out to UDOT, slow
vehicle turnouts are successfully used in several states.
And
UDOT has told us that they have the statutory authority to use
slow vehicle turnouts.
Therefore, they must be used in
preference to passing lanes where wetlands impacts will occur.
Additionally, while UDOT partially responded to BAS's
concerns on Appendix B page 36 by reducing the road width to 34feet between mileposts 391.6 and 399.8, this response was
incomplete.
UDOT fails to point out why it does not plan to
leave roadway width at 26-feet in section 1b of the canyon
(mileposts 387.5 to 391.6).
If 26-feet is a practicable
alternative in section 1a (mileposts 383.5 to 387.5), why is that
not practicable in section 1b, where the canyon is virtually as
narrow and wetlands/riparian impacts likely as great?
Furthermore, UDOT dismisses BAS's concerns about wetlands
mitigation in sections 1a and 1b by saying "the commentor .
. .
felt" (ROD page 33)there was a poor likelihood of revegetation
success.
However, it was not a matter that I "felt" there was a
poor likelihood of success.
Rather, I cited recent scientific
literature--produced by scientists working for the very agency
whose land will be impacted (the Forest Service)--stating there
is a poor likelihood revegetation will be successful in areas
11
�such as sections 1a and 1b (see Appendix B page 37).
If the
scientific literature that I cited is somehow flawed UDOT should
cite "better" information.
That's how science works.
demands the use of good science.
And NEPA
Until then, it appears UDOT has
no scientific basis for claiming it can reclaim the kinds of
wetlands that exist in sections 1a and lb.
Finally, UDOT still feels simply stating best management
practices will be used is sufficient to meet water quality
mandates (Appendix B page 37, see also ROD page 32).
otherwise.
The law is
Moreover, UDOT has failed to adequately coordinate
with the Utah Division of Water Rights (see Appendix B page 6)
which feels UDOT has likely understated the water quality impacts
of the project.
Thus, UDOT is too vague about how it will
mitigate water quality impacts and has likely underestimated
those impacts, yet UDOT wants approval to proceed with this
project.
That is not how NEPA intends environmental review to
proceed.
12.
An inability to do a "before and after" (ie,
cumulative) comparison of wetlands and aesthetic impacts in the
already-widened section of Logan Canyon with the project area
would be unfortunate (Appendix B page 38).
However, I believe
that if future aesthetic conditions of the road can be predicted
in the project area, past conditions in the already-widened
section can also be estimated.
For example, there are certainly
many old photos of the canyon that could be used for aesthetic
comparisons, and many of the old wetlands have left "footprints"
12
�of their existence.
While not an ideal scientific situation, to
simply state that no useful cumulative comparisons can be made
between the project area and the lower canyon overstates the
situation.
UDOT says the Forest Service feels the presentation of
visual quality data was more meaningful when presented in a way
unlike that in the rest of the FEIS (Appendix B page 38).
Why
did UDOT let the Forest Service dictate this approach when BAS-and several others--made it clear in their comments on the DEIS
that this was not a more illuminating approach?
MAJOR FLAWS APPARENT IN THE ROD
What follows are additional major flaws that I perceive in
the ROD.
1.
Again, this is not an exhaustive list.
On page 40 of the ROD UDOT mistakenly thinks only an
irreversible commitment of resources can invoke NEPA relative to
4(f) designation.
Actually the test is whether designating a
4(f) site is a Federal action significantly affecting the human
environment.
The selection--or more importantly, lack of
selection--of 4(f) sites in Logan Canyon meets that test and
certainly warranted at least a FONSI or an EA.
2.
On page 18 of the ROD UDOT says the Forest Service will
issue a transportation easement not the special use permit
described in the FEIS.
What is the significance of that change?
If one of these involves the Forest Service conveying a property
right while the other is merely a license, this is a significant
13
�.
"
change, and the public has not had a chance to comment or be
involved in this decision.
3.
As I have discussed in several of our meetings, the
exact location and size of staging areas must be spelled out.
This is a major project impact that has not been previously
addressed.
4.
I have already mentioned the tendency towards
unwarranted conclusory statements in regards to how the BAS
letter was addressed.
That same problem is particularly evident
in the defensive discussion on purpose and need on pages 27 to 29
of the ROD.
As I said above, the safety data were wrong in the
FEIS, are still wrong, and question begging rhetoric does not
alleviate that problem.
Likewise, the discussions related to
traffic volume predictions, the associated level of service, the
utility of SR 14 as a comparison to u.S. Highway 89, and AASHTO
standards are mostly just defensive and conclusory.
5.
On Appendix A page 7 there is a critical UDOT
memorandum.
First, under the logic developed in this memorandum,
there is little or no safety rationale for the 40-feet wide road
UDOT still proposes in much of the canyon.
All of the remaining
proposed 40-feet wide highway could just as well be 34-feet wide.
UDOT should strongly consider this fact as a means of reaching a
generally acceptable compromise in the canyon.
However there is also a very disturbing remark made in this
memo.
It is stated: n[A]nd given the fact that we would be able
to proceed with the construction of the project .
14
. . n if the
�f
road width is reduced to 34-feet, going to five foot shoulders is
acceptable.
Did UDOT decide to go to a 34-feet width instead of
a 40-feet between mileposts 391.6 to 399.8 because of its goodfaith discussions with conservationists or because EPA and/or the
Corps of Engineers told UDOT they would not get a 404 permit if
they did not make this change?
The sentence quoted above
certainly implies that someone was holding a very big stick over
UDOT's head, and frankly I doubt that it was conservationists.
6.
The letters from the EPA and the Utah Division of Water
Rights on Appendix B pages 1 to 6 are a must read.
In essence,
not only has UDOT failed to insure an approved wetlands permit is
acquired before the project is authorized, it has also put off
significant input on water quality impacts until the as yet
nonexistent design phase.
We mentioned earlier how UDOT has
marginalized the public's ability to participate in this process
by its out of sync NEPA process.
It appears UDOT is doing the
same with expert agencies that should have input to this project
prior to its approval, not after.
A SUGGESTION FOR COMPROMISE
Many of my comments in this letter have been critical of
UDOT's approach to the Logan Canyon project.
That's because I
feel the ROD is as flawed a decision document as were the DEIS
and FEIS.
However, in the spirit of compromise let me offer a
suggested approach.
When the final ROD is issued it should only approve
15
�construction of the bridges, namely Burnt Bridge, and Upper and
Lower Twin Bridges.
These are the "scary" bridges in many
people's opinion, and as I understand it the ones that are in
need of replacement due to their age.
UDOT apparently has
funding to reconstruct these bridges and UDOT has indicated that
replacing these bridges would take about two years.
During that two year period an SEIS could be prepared for
the remainder of the project, wherein the public and concerned
agencies are given a full opportunity to participate before a
decision is made and when it can still have a major effect.
Many
of the major flaws that I have pointed out in this letter and my
letters submitted on behalf of BAS regarding the FEIS and DEIS
could be corrected in this process.
The numerous other flaws
pointed out by other commentors could also be addressed.
The
EPA's deep concern regarding segmenting a project (see Appendix B
pages 1 to 4) might be addressed.
Additionally, the constructive
and positive discussions UDOT has had with conservationists could
continue in a effort to narrow remaining differences.
In any
event, UDOT does not have funding for nonbridge portions of the
project yet, so taking a couple of more years to "get it right"
should not be a major problem for UDOT fiscally.
You will note that I did not include the Red Banks, Franklin
Basin, or Amazon Hollow structures/bridges in this proposal.
There is simply too much controversy associated with them (due to
their extreme width and wetlands impacts) to expect that they
would meet with general acceptance, unlike the three bridges
16
�"
mentioned above.
Moreover, as far as I know, the only "problem"
with these bridges is that they are not as wide as UDOT would
like.
However, they do not seem to be as narrow as the bridges
mentioned above (they certainly are not "scary"), and they are
not nearing the end of their useful life so far as I know.
Thank you for this opportunity to provide these comments on
the ROD, and I hope that UDOT and the FHWA will consider this
compromise proposal so that a generally acceptable compromise
might be reached for the Logan Canyon project.
Sincerely,
~8~~
Bruce Pendery
755 Canyon Rd.
Logan, Utah 84321
17
�...
Shawn Swaner
USU Box 1625
Logan, Utah 84322-0199
August 10, 1994
Mr. David Berg
UDOT Environmental Division
4501 S 2700 W
Salt Lake City UT 84119
Dear Mr. Berg,
I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the preparation of the Logan
Canyon Record of Decision and have several comments on the draft copy of
that document.
I have many concerns about waiting until the design phase to resolve
controversial issues. As we discussed on the August 3 field review, the
RoD is a legally binding document that must be adhered to in design.
However, verbal and informally written commitments could be overlooked
or omitted from final design for a variety of reasons. For the sake of
reaching compromise, I would like to see the RoD become a more formal
record of what is to be done and provide binding guidelines for the design
phase.
The following comments are areas that I feel need more
comprehensive coverage to ensure concerns resolved prior to the
submission of the RoD are not "lost" over time.
Dugway
During the August 3 field trip, there was discussion concerning the width
of the cut at the Dugway . To widen the width of the cut from 4 feet to 12
feet would cause considerable additional aesthetic impacts in this area.
It could result in design changes to the roadway width and number of lanes
in this area. The width of cut and method for making the cut should be
covered in the RoD.
Cost considerations should be evaluated now, rather
than during design.
�,
Lower Twin Bridge
The proposed sloping of the south cut at Lower Twin Bridge would most
likely provide better revegetation and possibly less of and aesthetic
impact.
The removal of the existing bridge support structure should be more
Impact reducing measures such as sawcutting versus
thoroughly covered.
jackhammering are very important considerations and should be written
into the RoD. Also, guidelines should be established for the disposal of
the old bridge.
Temple Fork
The amount of variables at Temple Fork cause for a great amount of
concern. I am grateful for the elimination of the left turn lane. I also feel
that realigning the intersection will provide greater safety. However, the
close proximity of the river and adjoining riparian habitat make it a
sensitive portion of the project. I am concerned about the adding of an
uphill deceleration and turn lane.
Although the additional width will be
cut into the hillside, I urge that extreme care be taken to ensure minimal
construction and post construction impacts on the river and riparian
habitat. Concerns have been raised about the threat of siltation due to
runoff during construction. There are also concerns to aesthetics of this
area.
Once again, clarification of how these issues are to be dealt with
would be justified in the RoD.
Beaver Creek
The Beaver Creek corridor is similar to the lower middle canyon in
narrowness and close proximity of riparian and wetland habitat. Language
similar to that used to describe the Lower Middle Canyon should be used
here. Specific areas of concern are the use of clear zones, total roadway
width in areas to be contained by retaining waifs, and use and type of
protective guardrail.
Specific attention should be given to that habitat of
this section as it has unique terrain that is not conducive to clear zones
within proposed clear zone areas.
�•
Amazon Hollow Bridge
This is an area raised in early 1994 during a field review.
At that time it
was indicated that impacts to the wetlands adjacent to this bridge could
most likely be avoided. Considering that the actual intersection will be
moved farther east, away from the bridge, and that a shorter taper could
be employed, this should be possible. It would seem that a consultation of
maps should answer whether this is possible, or whether it would require
a design exemption. If it requires a design exemption, then that must be
included in the RoD, if it does not then it should be indicated that the
wetlands will be avoided, as Federal agencies have directed. If UDaT does
not feel that avoiding these wetlands is possible, then that should be
made clear so that we can Inform our constituents.
Curves 69, 70, 71
and adjacent forest.
After numerous discussions on passing lanes, I agree that the addition of a
passing lane to the 40 foot roadway section would result in only the
addition roadway width of 7 feet. However, if this additional width
causes a substantially higher road base width or a wider fill, then that
should be the primary focus regarding impacts. Therefore, relating to
these curves, the addition of seven feet of width could cause severe
impacts to habitat and aesthetics by the inclusion of fills. Please
evaluate whether retaining walls could be used to limit the amount of
sliver fills down the steep slope of these curves. Also indicate the safety
device to be used along this section of the road . A five foot shoulder
would nearly double the amount of cut and fill necessary, has UDaT
included the in it's impact evaluation?
Curve 85 Forest Impacts
Impacts to the forest habitat surrounding curve 85 are of prime concern to
CPLC. Several alternatives have been proposed by both UDaT and CPLC.
CPLC has a two fold concern in this area, and no proposed alternative
adequately resolves these concerns. The first and primary concern relates
to the elimination of trees in this area due to curve realignment and
roadway widening . The aesthetics of travelling through this area are a
unique experience in the canyon and as such are of concern. The widening
of the road and the implementation of wider shoulders and safety features
would eliminate the close proximity of these trees, resulting in the lose
�•
of the aesthetic value.
I realize that curve 85 has a high degree of curvature (23 degrees) and the
problem of icing during winter months makes this curve a safety concern .
The proposed alternatives all offer varying degrees of satisfaction for
CPLC various impacts to safety and environment.
I offer the following
comments on the proposed alternatives for this section.
Ending the passing lane above Sunrise Campground
This would reduce the amount of aesthetic impacts to this area but
would not accomplish much unless the curve was maintained on its
present alignment. I realize that safety standards would preclude
the use of this option.
ReRouting of Road from Summit to approx. MP
This is a dramatic change from previous plans and a such I have very
little information on its impacts and also on how the body of CPLC
regards it. I am initially in favor of this proposal, as I indicated on
the August 3 field review, however, we must more thoroughly
examine all aspects of this proposal before myself or CPLC can
formally accept this proposal.
Impacts to habitat should be evaluated, as well as the manner of and
amount of cut and fiJI that would be necessary to accommodate the
roadway. Also, work must be done to show how the realigned portion
would reacquire the original road .
I feel this is a matter of prime concern that must be dealt with in
the RoD. If UDOT wishes to proceed with design changes outlined in
the FEIS, then that should be make clear. This is not an issue that
can be left until final design.
Old Road on Garden City side of ProJect
The draft RoD is suitable regarding removal and revegetation of abandoned
road . However, can the RoD include a statement that no abandoned road
will be left intact above the Garden City Limits?
�•
Impacts
from
Mitigation
CPLC has raised concerns about the impacts from mitigation. These
concerns could be allayed if we could review a mitigation plan from a
similar project. Also, what guidelines are followed, are they published
and if so in what publication. Review of mitigation plans and procedures
should show that those procedures are acceptable and not as impacting as
we believe, if in fact they are not.
Land Use
What is the duration of the planned construction/pose-construction
monitoring plan? Will they have the necessary budget and staff to
revegetate or fix areas of mitigation and revegetation that fail?
What will be the role and extent of communication with agencies other
than the Forest Service? Should not more agencies be included in roles
greater than that of the CAT team?
What Best Management Guidelines will be used in Rich County, which has
now guidelines of its own?
Social
Impacts
While a majority of social impacts, notably those relating to Garden City
residents are outside our primary area of concern, the impacts to
recreation and access in the canyon are of interest.
Despite categorizing
sites in the canyon into 4(f) sites, the canyon as a whole must not be
overlooked as a recreation area. Logan Canyon is a recreation area,
regardless of its designation. There are many more sites beside the
designated 4(f) sites that fit the same criteria. The close proximity of
the canyon's 4(f) sites indicate that the whole canyon is a contiguous
recreation site and as such should be treated as such.
The recreation
value of the canyon is not just a sum of available parking areas and
turnouts. Social impacts are not only loss of these parking areas, but also
the degradation of the canyon natural resources.
�\
•
Water
Quality
Impacts
Siltation of the rivers and streams both during and after construction of
an area of high concern. What guidelines will be used to ensure long term
avoidance of siltation due to road runoff. Plans have been made for the
first four miles of the project, but not much has been said of the rest of
the project. Is there an AASHTO guide for this?
Wetlands and Botanical Resources
As mentioned previously, impacts which can obviously be avoided should
be listed in the RoD. As the actual design may take place several years
into the future, and concerns discussed prior to the release of the RoD
could be overlooked. My inclination (and not necessarily that of CPLC) is
that concessions resulting in less impacts to wetlands and riparian
habitat are of prime interest, and that my emphasis is on these
concessions, rather than concerns in the upper canyon and on the Garden
City side. Hence, wetlands in the Lower Upper Canyon, and the Beaver
Creek corridor are of deep interest. Avoidance of impacts in these areas
are much more important than many other concerns and should be given
thorough coverage.
Water Body Impacts and Wildlife Impacts
What studies are used to justify that
impact wildlife migration?
lay down fencing will not adversely
What measures will be taken to minimize the likely increase of animal
vehicle collisions due to higher vehicle speed?
Regarding clear span bridges, what guidelines will be followed to
minimize construction impacts to the river from the close proximity of
the spans, noting that those spans will not be in the river, but in very
close proximity. Does the erosion control plans mentioned in the RoD also
cover bridge construction?
Is there enough information about fisheries in the canyon to adequately
determine what mitigative measures will be undertaken? Why not do a
study prior to construction to determine the current state of fisheries?
�•
Construction
Impacts
Please include information regarding the potential air quality
bituminous processing plant. What permits would be required
Should these permits not be included in the RoD? Can a plant
the canyon if the impacts of such a plant where not covered in
prior?
impacts of a
for this?
be built in
the FEIS or
Construction detours could represent an additional substantial impact.
What will be done to minimize the use of detours, where will detours be
prohibited, who has final decision over use and location of detours?
Another impact that has been previously overlooked is staging areas. The
construction of staging areas on sites previously mapped as untouched
create a new impact that was undocumented in the environmental
documentation.
Comments on the FEIS
Overall, I feel that UDOT's handling of public comments has been very poor
and is a major contributor to current feelings of mistrust towards UDOT
from CPLC members and the public. Better handling of comments could
have greatly improved relations and led to better cooperation on this
project.
The dismissal of concerns and comments is certainly realistic, but
dismissal without adequate explanation is unacceptable to the
commentator. The replies to comments in the FEIS and the RoD indicate
that UDOT has little regard for the publics input and if it was evaluated at
all, no mention of how those suggestions where incorporated or dismissed
was given .
Regarding
consensus
CPLC and
consensus
process to
not.
the statement in the last sentence of page 29 of the draft RoD,
has not yet been met. Representatives from FHWA, Garden City,
within UDOT have expressed concerns that would indicate that
has not been reached. It is damaging to the consensus building
declare that consensus has been reached when in fact it has
�Traffic and
Safety Data
In the August 1 meeting, UDOT stated that accident and traffic data was
"garbage." It would seem that if improving safety and level of service
were the intent of the project, then accurate data would be required to
justify that purpose and need. Since the traffic and safety data is
inaccurate, it would seem that purpose and need should be altered to
include only level of service and substandard design.
Conclusion
I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the development of the
Record of Decision. As a representative of CPLC, I look forward to
continued communication on the many issues surrounding the Logan Canyon
project.
Sincerely,
GP,'-/
s:'.....,g....uz
Shawn Swaner
�
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Various papers commenting on the Logan Canyon construction project, 1994
Description
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Various papers commenting on the Logan Canyon construction project, 1994. Included: Citizens for a Safe and Scenic Logan Canyon summary of UDOT plan of action and Conservationist plan of action, time filing lawsuit under NEPA, and comments on Logan Canyon project from Bruce Pendery.
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Pendery, Bruce
Flint, Stephan D.
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Berg, David
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Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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1990-1999
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, MSS 314, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon/Logan Canyon Coalition Papers, 1963-1999
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MSS314Bx1Fd5.pdf
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http://highway89.org/files/original/44186100bae44ec54de6b2fd8e6ae351.pdf
919eb952a79f67e37e2cbbb839d5930e
PDF Text
Text
Dec rob r 2, 1961
Dr. Daryl Chase , President
Utah state University
Campus
D
r Presi ent Ch. s :
ttached are fifte
copi s of our printed list tement on Road Construction ~nd Resource Use". We suggest
th..l.t copies be for rd d with your card to the Utah
congressional del gation--Senators Moss and Bennett, nd
epresentatives King and Pet rson. Also to S cr tary
' of Commerc Luther Hodg s , Secretary of griculture
Oe ville Freeman, and Secretary of the Interior stewart
Ud 11.
I
m today transmitting copies to bure u chiefs
within these dgencies.
Sincerely yours,
J. Whitney Floyd, Dean
College of For st , Range ,
and Wildlife Management
JHB:ep
Attachm nts-lS
�
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Title
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, December 2, 1961
Description
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, December 2, 1961 discussing the Statement on Road Construction and Resouce Use and its dissemination to the Utah congressional delegation.
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Floyd, J. Whitney
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Chase, Daryl
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Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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Correspondence
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
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1960-1969
20th century
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
Type
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Text
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application/pdf
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 5.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/2e888296eca409e02326889d21e36640.pdf
0ef547ce94e904223ead108032730516
PDF Text
Text
COOPERATIVE EXTENSION WORK
IN
AGRICULTURE AND HOME ECONOMICS
STATE OF UTAH
EXTENSION SERVIC E
UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY
u.
AND
LOGAN. UTAH
S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
COOPERATING
M E M 0
To:
M
rs. -ladys Harrison
Fro~:
Mr . Jeck H. 8·
rr~an
\G...
J.\ttochcd Ejr~ t wo copi s of Road Constr uct· on c . d
ResDur c8 ~se , a contrlbutiofiCif £he Ext ens i on--
S_tvic
~
and th _ Cn lege of Forest,
R3ng~ ,
nd
'ildl if 8 r·1a n ngem~nt , ,lubIluhnd joi ntly F~S Exten-
sion Circuler 297; olso as no . 3 in
entanninl Oiemo d Jubilse Geri~sD
th~ L ~nd
Gr8nt
Thio is th G ctement that fi ttr a ct ed 80 much newspaper pub lici ty hen rol l~sed in typed arm in
sarlV No vember.
It i s a vaila Ie for dintributio n through the publicat iuns room of ,he Extens i on :-erv · C8S in -- he
Agricultu r ~ l ScienCES Building.
JH8:js
~
cc: Dean J . ~hit n ~v Fl oyd
Dean Culms8e
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1749">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1749</a>
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Title
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Memorandum from Jack Berryman to Gladys Harrison, No Date
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from Jack Berryman to Gladys Harrison about copies of the Road Construction and Resource Use statement.
Creator
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Berryman, Jack H.
Contributor
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Harrison, Gladys
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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Administrative records
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 6.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/42c9ee243341c20effea01d43d00362c.pdf
9949b0181a1da1a66dd22d1086f04bec
PDF Text
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DATE:
[tee.
TIME:
7 :00 - 9:00 PM
1994
PERSONS PRESENT:
Lauren keller, Ka~ny Gilb ert, Shawn
Swaner, M
ark Bowen, Nathan ~uit, Dianne Sigirled,
Gordon SteInhoff, Merv Coover
1. Shawn discussed t ne upcomIng Transportati on CommIssion MeetIng on
Dec. 15 in Salt Lake City. He agreed to be the spokesperson for CPLC at
tne mee~lng. He was asked by UDOI ~o present our position. Todd
Weston, a memoer 0+ tne Transportation Commiss Ion naG presented hIS
preference for tne Preferreo AlternatIve at tne Cache County CounCI l
meetIng on Dec. 13. weston wan~ed the council's support for the
Preferred Altern ative to ensure federa l nighway fundIng . The counCI l
vo~ed (S-2! for the modified ROD as negotIated bv CPLC w I~h UDO I In
order ~o get tne project mOVIng.
2. KeVIn kobe, Dan MI ll er, Lil l lane Bowen oresented the Dositlon of t ne
Logan Canyon Coai ltion. Their POS I tion was to coooerate fully wlth CPLC
ana no~ to JepOrdlz e ~he bargainIng POSItIon of CPLC. They dIG no~ wan~
to stop th e project but WISneG ~o pursue other Issues such as a tores~
service appeal when ~he Forest SerVIce Issued a modIfIed forest plan In
oraer for tne road construction to Oegln. Thev would I Ik e to get more
compromIses from UDOT . They left the meeting after tne i r presentatIon.
Laure n ied the discussion ior Incorporation. The fo l lOWIng were
agt-'ee,j upon:
a. we would Incoporate as a non-p r ofIt, educatIonal organization .
O. the board would conSlS~ of 9 members.
c. board terms would be staggered witn 2 year terms.
d. aC~lng offlcers were e lected as out! lned by the procedure In tne Nay.
17tn mInutes. ChaIr - Shawn Swan er, Vice-Ch aIr - Lauren Kei Jer,
S e cre~ary - ~a~hy GI l bert
e. ~he meetIng was adjourned before all the Items for lncorooration were
dIscussed. It was agreed ~o complete thIS bUSi ness at the Jan. j 9~
meeting.
4.
1'1EE;TING i~AfL?C:HfDU_LEQ.. £OR.;.. JAN. 12,_J. 1 9j AT 7:00 f'i"l . H
I
The agenda will Include:
"t"f..IE NEXT BOARD
kATHY'S hOUSE.
a. the remainIng items for IncorporatIon.
b . selectIon of the CAT team member.
c. plannIng for general memoershlp mee~lng.
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1748">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1748</a>
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Minutes of the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon, December 15, 1994
Description
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Minutes of the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon, December 15, 1994
Creator
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Swaner, Shawn
Kobe, Kevin
Miller, Dan
Bowen, Lilliane
Keller, Lauren
Contributor
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Gilbert, Kathy
Bowen, Mark
Hult, Nathan
Sigfried, Dianne
Steinhoff, Gordon
Coover, Merv
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Minutes and proceedings
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Department of Transportation--Utah
Medium
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Agendas (administrative records)
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1990-1999
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, MSS 314, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon/Logan Canyon Coalition Papers, 1963-1999
Is Referenced By
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View the finding aid for this collection at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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MSS314Bx1Fd3.pdf
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http://highway89.org/files/original/01723bfef9f895dc5d9636bbf030460d.pdf
e456f8d9505df07bbf3d18156a7be93b
PDF Text
Text
I
i
Logan Canyon HighwJy
For the second time in nine years, the Utah Department of Transportation
(UnOT) is proposing an expansion and reduction of curves to the 6.7-mile
stretch of U.S. Highway 89 from Right Hand Fork to Ricks Spring in Logan Canyon.
Environmental groups and concerned citizens, including the Sierra Club, the
Bridgerland Audubon Society , Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon and
o thers, view this expansion as highly unfavorable a nd as a threat to the
beauty and quality of the Logan Canyon Recreation Area.
General Summary
*
Major impact
011
both environmental '\lnd visual quality of canyon.
* Project cont radict s national energy , concern.
* 80-90 percent of the project requi r ~ s cutting into e~isting banks and
vegetated areas.
!
* "Waste poses a major engineering pr~ blem." (Quote from project engineer)
Traffic Growth Factors
*
*
*
*
UDOT uses an unrealistic expontential model.
A linear growth model better fits daily traffic data.
Traffic data used by UnOT are limited to one busy section of the highway,
yet are used to describe the whole road.
Need for highway re-al ignment not documented by current data.
Safety Factors
*
*
*
*
Suggested danger of Logan Canyon "Section III" is not supported by current
data.
A major discrepancy exist s between accident rate data and traffic volume.
1977 accident rate figured by the Utah Highway Patrol does not agree with
unOT report.
Statistical significance of acciden t data used is suspect.
Environmental Factors
* Numerous spills would encroach into Logan River from planned fills.
* Silt deposits in the river would 4estroy trout habitat and breeding cycle.
* Loss of riverside vegetation needed by trout for 100/ light intensity.
* Creation of any culverts would impair spa't<.>ning success of trout.
* Los s of vegetative barriers lessens the quality of fishing experience.
* Major visual impacts \"ould result from the cuts pla nned, especially the
two major cuts at the Temple Fork area, which lI.T()uld be, according to the
engineer's r eport, 75 feet deep and as much as 150 feet across.
II
IT'LL NEVER BE WORTH AS MUCH AS WE'VE PUT I NTO IT (the project) ALREADY."
--Gary Lindley, project engineer.
�January 20, 1989
SR-89, Logan Canyon
~9.~_IJ.£1_.~J:te r..n.~.:t:..t.~.~.
Meetings, discussions and field trips between representatives of the Forest
Service, Federal Highway Administration and UDOT have led to an agency
alternative proposal. Impact upon aquatic, riparian and visual resources were
considered as well as highway needs concerning safety, capacity, passing
opportunities, structure conditions and roadllJay alignment.
The following elements of the agency alternative proposal were selected, based
upon needs. Impacts were held essentially to visual resources except for the
Beaver Canyon area of Section 2. Visual, riparian and aquatic resources are
of great value. Visual resources are considered to be more readily mitigated
with proven techniques, to the extent that restoration can be achieved . The
effect and success of visual resource mitigation is relatively simple to
demonstrate, as compared to the mitigation of aquatic or riparian areas . The
erosive capability of water at high-flow volumes can quickly damage the best
of mitigative techniques in the aquatic or riparian environment . The Forest
Service anticipates that some elements of the agency alternative will alt~r
resources to the extent of non- compliance with the Wasatch- Cache Forest Plan
and will require that the plan be amended.
Elements of the agency alternative were selected from among the various
alternatives, as prepared by UDOT's consultant and suggestions recommended by
UDOT, FHWA and USFS. Each element is intended to stand on its own merits with
regard to capacity, safety, nationally recognized standards, principals of
good engineering practice, impact upon the environment, highway maintenance,
and user's of canyon resources. Use of the map supplement, alter'native "0" as
prepared by UDOT's consultant will be useful in locating the various elements
of the agency alternative in relation to canyon topography, Each element is
identified by milepost, generally to the nearest one- tenth mile. This
location identification is only intended to be a general locator and may not
specifically identify the location of any selected improvement,
Various curves throughout the project corridor are selected for flattening
(longer radius). This flattening is expressed in degree of curve according to
standard engineering practice. The degree of curvature stated for each
affected curve is only approximate, and may change slightly during the
detailed design process because of local topographic or geologic constraints,
related alignments, or other factors.
Visual, riparian and acquatics were considered to be the areas of most
significant impact in the canyon environment; and the elements of the agency
alternative were selected in an effort to minimize the impact upon these
resources. Impacts upon wetlands are created by some elements of the agency
alternative. Wetland impacts are considered to be mitigatable accor'ding to
the following schedule, if the wetland area cannot be completely avoided:
(1)
(2)
Adjust highway alignment or location,
Consider retaining walls in terms of economics and affects, and
(3)
Consume wetland in element construction and replace in accordance
with Army Corps of Engineers' requirements.
�-2--
The following elements of the agency alternative are recommended by the
three-~ember committee to the lead and cooperative agencies:
A clear zone requirement is associated with the improvement alternatives
listed below, according to the schedule: 35 mph - 18 feet; 40 mph - 18 feet;
50 mph - 22 feet. This dimension is measured from the
tr'affic lane/shoulder line to a hazard (rock, tree, slope, etc.). Any hazard
lying within this distance should either be removed or protected by barrier
(guardrail). Although many items (trees, rocks, etc.) are located near enough
to the roadway to warrant protection, only the most severe and extreme hazar'ds
will be protected. Severe hazards are defined where a serious accident could
occur if a vehicle left the roadway, i.e., the Dugway area. The clear zone
dimension also affects guardrail length and flare rate in connection with
protecting bridge parapet walls. Guardrail will be the preferred barrier type
for this project. Other acceptable barrier types may be considered if their
impact is more favorable than conventional guardrail. Guardrail placement
will be carefully evaluated in respect to hazard type, canyon environment,
design speed and other site conditions. If a specific hazard warrants
protection, roadway embankments may require extension to provide adequate
space for guardrai I plac~~ment .
Various parcels of right--of-way are required to construct the below listed
widenings, curve flattenings, realignments, intersection improvements or other
features. On National Forest lands the UDOT will obtain a Department of
Transportation easement to all parcels required to contain the roadway and cut
and fill slopes according to provisions of the Highway Act of 1958. Title to
private properties will be requested through regular right-of-way
proceedings. Parcels no longer required for right-of.!-way will not be retained
by the UDOT.
Vertical alignment throughout the project corridor is generally adequate for
the intended design speeds. All roadway sections throughout the project
corridor are intended to be reconstructed to meet the strength requirements of
a twenty-year design period. This pavement reconstruction is intended to
apply to all areas even if no widening, realignment, or curve flattening is
intended. The pavement reconstruction oper'ation is to provide adequate
strength while leaving essentially unaffected present pavement elevation.
Techniques, such as in place recycling or total pavement excavation, may be
utilized. All pipe culverts will be replaced . Drainage ar'eas will be
evaluated to determine pipe culvert diameters, Some additional culverts may
be requ ired.
All project sections will be subject to highway signing and delineation
upgrade, Feature signing for campgrounds and other points of interest may be
included, Curves will be signed as appropriate with advisot~y speeds.
Culver'ts will be marked with delineators for identification. Milepost and
destination signing will be provided. Highway delineators will be installed
in an acceptable manner in consultation with the Forest Service and the
Federal Highway Administration.
�-3Traffic control during construction periods will be provided so that at least
one-lane of traffic for alternating one-way traffic is available at all
times. Traffic will be returned t6 the normal two- lane, two -~ay operation to
the extent possible during no construction periods. Under no conditions will
the contractor be allowed to prevent traffic flow in the canyon for extended
periods. Time of construction of selected operations will be scheduled to
allow for maximum protection of the environment, such as periods of fish
spawning or other sensitive events. However, sufficient time and opportunity
must be available to the contractor to build the improvements following good
construction practice.
Consideration will be given to constructing cut or fill slopes entirely on one
side of the present roadway. Generall~, the preferable area of distu r bance
will be the side away from the river, wetland or toward the area which can
absorb disturbance with the least impact. Cut and fill areas will be
constructed as flat as practicable in accordance with good engineering
practice. In all disturbed areas topsoil and native plantings will be
restored according to good landscaping practice.
1.
Section lA: Project beginning (Milepost 383.47, Right Hand Fork) to M.P.
387.47, length 4.0 miles. This section is referred to as the "parkway".
Present design speed and posted speed will remain unchanged; roadway
width 26 feet (existing width). Maximum degree of curve - 26 0 . Curves
showing high-accident location will be flattened to a degree similar to
adjoining curves if it is concluded that flattening can be achieved
without severe environment al impact. Clear zone requirement - 18 feet .
No features outside existing roadway will be disturbed, except as
provided below. Sections of the roadway having design speeds lower than
the present speed limit will be appropriately signed.
a.
Flattening of Curve #5 at Milepost 384 from 25 0 to
15 0 . The curve is the site of an unusually
high-accident r·ate. Flattening the curve wi 11 move the
alignment away from the river. Excavated material will
be disposed of in an acceptable manner. New cut slopes
will be contoured, topsoiled and revegetated. Accidents
at this location typically involve vehicles leaving thE!
roadway due to excessive speed for the curve . Records
show approximately equal numbers of up- canyon vehicle
accidents as down-canyon vehicle accidents. A speed
which is apparently safe for down- canyon (as well as for
up canyon) vehicles is too great, in some cases, to
safely negotiate this curve. Therefore, flattening the
curve should lead to a reduction of accidents rather than
encour'aging faster trave ling sp~~eds. An amendment to the
Forest Plan for visual resources will be required
�-4-
b.
China Row Picnic Area (Milepost 394.4). Accor'ding to
Forest Service recommendations, this area will not be
maintained as a picnic ground, and access fl~om the
highway will not be provided.
c.
Replace Burnt Bridge (Milepost 385.5) with a new single
span structure on the same alignment. Structure width
shall be 30 feet (four feet wider than the approaching
roadway). A detour is required as the present bridge
must be entirely r'emoved before a new structure can be
constructed. A detour and temporary bridge will be
placed i~nediately downstream of the present bridge.
Vegetation removal and river bank modification are
required. The temporary bridge will be single-span,
creating minimal impact upon the river. The detour will
allow two-way traHic at a 15 mph design speed if extreme
excavation and grading are not required. otherwise, a
single lane between with adequate traffic control devices
will be provided. Following construction, all contours
and vegetation will be re-established. An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
This element also impacts the riparian and acquatic
environments. Appropriate changes to the Forest plan
will be necessary.
d.
A grade increase of three feet will be constructed at
Logan Cave (Milepost 386.2) for a length of 1,000 feet.
The grade elevation wi 11 allow the roadway to move toward
the mountain several feet and help to somewhat flatten
Curve 22 (26 0 ). The river bank will be protected with
large ripr'ap and revegetated as appropriate. An
amendment to the Forest plan for work on the river bank
will be necessary. Separate walkway and pedestrian
facilities to Logan Cave will not be a part of the
proposed alternative at the request of the Forest Service.
e.
Replace Cottonwood Creek culvert (Milepost 386.4) on the
same alignment. A detour is not required as the new
culvert can be placed one-half at a time. An amendment
to the Forest Plan for visual resources will be required.
�-5-
f.
Raise roadway elevation in the area of Milepost 386.6 for
500 feet to a maximum amount of 18 inches. This action
is to eliminate occasional flooding of the roadway
created during freezing conditions of the river or other
high-water events. An amendment to the Fore8t Plan for
visual resources will be required.
Other features of the parkway section are as follows:
a.
Parking turnouts will be placed wherever possible to
attain at least three parking stalls with adequate sight
distance and tapers. Exact locations will be determined
during final design and in conjunction with Fore8t
Service recommendations.
b.
Habitat of endangered or protected species in this
section wil l not be affected by this proposal ..
c.
Placement of concrete curb and gutter, or gutter only,
along one or both sides of the roadway in portions of the
entire length of the parkway section. Curb and gutter
placement will be a subject of final design and the
location will be evaluated and care fully considered with
respect to impacts on the following highway factors:
1.
Roadside drainage channels.
2.
Maintenance operations, including snowplowing, removal of
talus (waste) material, and other activities (sweeping,
painting, etc.)
3.
Protection of roadside hazards.
4.
Access requirements.
d. Certain effects may occur if curb and gutter is c6nstructed as
li sted be low: .
1.
Delineation of roadside edge, and vegetation could grow
to the curb.
2.
Control of access. Vehicles could only park off the
roadway in des ignated areas and access campgrounds in
selected locations.
�-6-·
3.
Wider Roadway. Approximately 1 to 2 feet could be gained
by placing the curb and gutter in the present gravel
shoulder. This is necessary to provide an equivalent
lane width due to the proximity of the curb and gutter.
Some minor fill may be required to create grade to
maintain a constant roadway width.
4.
Roadway drainage. Discharge from curb and gutter catch
basins into wetland areas will be preferred over direct
discharge into the river. Good outfall design will be
required.
2.
Section 18: Construction of a 34-foot roadway section
(except as modified by a passing lane) from Milepost
387.47
to end of Middle Canyon Section, Milepost 391.6. Length
- 4.13 miles. Design speed 35 mph, maximum degree of
curve - 15 0 30'. Clear zone requirement - 18 feet.
Milepost 387.47 marks the beginning of a transition from
the 26-foot of Section iA width to a 40-foot roadway of
section 2. For down canyon traffic section 18 will
prepare drivers after leaving the 50 mph design speed of
section 2 for the 35 mph Parkway section (section 1A).
Traffic moving in both directions will travel a variable
width roadway through the heavily vegetated and very
scenic area of section iA to the less vegetated terrain
of section 2 or visa versa. Section 18 limits were
defined as an area which could absorb more impact of
roadway widening with less negative affect than section
1A. However, a 40-foot section with 50 mph design speed
would cause impacts greater than could be tolerated in
this section. An amendment to the Forest plan will be
required on all widened areas on National Forest Lands
with respect to visual and wetland resources.
Features of this section include the following:
a. Flatten Curve #33 (Milepost 387.7) to 80 by removing
rock material and creating a new cut. The existing
roadway cut can be partially backfilled and
revegetated when the new alignment is put in
service. This curve together with site (b) below are
high-accident locations . An amendment to the Forest
plan for visual resources will be required.
�-7-
b. Replace Lower Twin Bridge (Milepost 387.76) on new
alignment immediately upstream of the present bridge
clearspanning the river. The present bridge will
remain in service until the new structure is
completed. The new structure will be 47 feet wide to
provide for a passing lane as described below. The
present structure will be removed when the new
structure is placed in service. An amendment to the
Forest plan will be required in respect to visual,
aquatic and riparian resources.
c. Construct a passing lane from Milepost 387.5 to
Milepost 388.4, including transitions to and from the
new 34 foot roadway width. This section is through
the "Dugway" section. Roadway width will consist of
three 12-foot lanes, one 5-foot downhill shoulder and
one 2-foot uphill shoulder for a total width of 43
feet of paved width. ~etaining walls are required.
Walls will be aesthetically compatible with the canyon
topography and of a variable height. Wall locations
may be entirely uphill or entirely downhill of the
present roadway, or a combination of both, as deemed
appropriate, from an engineering and geotechnical
analysis. Impact upon the acquatic or riparian
environment will not be permitted. An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
d. Flatten Curve #35 (Milepost 388.11) from 16 0 to
15°-30' for a 35 mph design speed, which requires a
very minor realignment.
e. Flatten Curve #37 (Milepost 388.5) from 19 0 to
15°-30' by creating a new excavation into the
mountain. Design, construction and mitigation will be
similar to Curve #33. An amendment to the Forest plan
for visual resource~ will be required.
f. Replace Upper Twin Bridge (Milepost 388.76) on new
alignment immediately downstream of, and 10 feet higher
than, the existing bridge. This site is a
high-accident location. The present bridge and roadway
will serve as a one-lane detour during construction.
Embankment mat~rial used to obtain an elevation
increase and abutment footing will be placed onto the
down canyon lane and retained from spilling onto the
up--canyon lane by a concrete barrier 30" high. Thi s
concept provides the following:
�-8-
1. Minimum shift of roadway alignment.
2. Attainment of higher structure elevation,
improving wintertime maintenance.
3. Accommodation of traffic through the work zone.
4. No realignment or filling into the river channel.
When the new alignment is completed, the
remaining unused roadway will be backfilled,
regraded, and revegetated to an original
condition. Most, if not all, of the present
structure will be removed, dependant on any
portions being required to support new
embankment materials.
Some tree removal downstream of the present
structure will be required. Tree removal will
be held to a minimum and a retaining wall will
be constructed if substantial tree savings can
be realized. An amendment to the Forest plan
will be required with respect to the visual,
aquatic and riparian environment.
g. Flatten Curves #39 and #40 (Milepost 388.8) to 15 0 .
Curve #39 may be flattened to less than 15 0 ,
depending on how the realignment of Upper Twin Bridge
is designed. An amendment to the Forest plan for
visual resources will be required.
h. Temple Fork Intersection (Milepost 389.2). Improve
Temple Fork Road intersection by n~grading access road
to a maximum grade of 2%. This intersection will be
modified to provide maximum safety of access.
i. Temple Fork Parking Area (Milepost 389.3). Construct a
parking area at Temple Fork between the roadway as
realigned in (j) below and the Logan River. The
parking area wi 11 be made as large as possible in
accordance with Forest Service recommendations and
safety of access, without encroaching upon the roadway
or the river. An amendment to the Forest plan for
visual resources will be required.
j. Flatten Curve #43 (Milepost 389.4) from 20 0 to
150 . This realignment will move into the area of
shade near Milepost 389.3 (down canyon side of
highway). The widening or realignment will not affect,
or move closer to, the river. An amendment to the
Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
�-9-
k. Rick Springs Area (Milepost 389.8) - Roadway width of
34 feet will be constructed and the Ricks Springs
structure replaced. An al igrllnent shi f't toward, but not
impacting the river or riparian area is recommended.
Parking areas will be provided. Material will be
removed and/or retaining walls constr~cted in
accordance with good design practice to provide a
maximum parking area. All improvements will be
consistent with USFS reco~nendations. This area is
recorded as a high-accident location. . An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
1. Flatten Curve #45 (Milepost 390.1) from 16 0 to
15 0 • Maintain existing passing lane from Milepost
390.1 to 390.7 except for the addition of paved
shoulders. An amendment to the Forest plan for visual
resources will be required.
m. Raise roadway elevation in the area of Milepost 390.2
and Milepost 391.1 to a maximum of 18 inches to
eliminate occasional flooding of the
roadway created during freezing conditions of the river
or other high-water events . An amendment to the Forest
plan for visual resources will be required.
n. The remaining distance to the end of Section One
(to Milepost 391.6, or 1.5 miles) will continue to be
upgraded to the 34-foot r'oadway width and 35 mph design
speed on the present roadway alignment. Areas of soil
excavation and backfill are required, and will be
mitigated as described in l.a above. An amendment to
the Forest plan will be required with respect to
visual, and wetland environments .
3.
Section 2: Construction of a 4o-foot paved roadway width,
except as modified by passing lanes, and 50 mph design speed
from the beginning of Section 2 (Milepost 391.6) to the Bear
Lake SUl1lmit (Milepost 404 . .,5). 13.15 miles. Maximum degree of
curve is 6 0 45'. Clear zone requirement - 22 feet.
Milepost 391.9 to 392.0 is a high accident area. In locations
where the stream channels are placed in a curvert or otherwise
affected, fish passage through the affected segment will be a
design consideration . An amendment to the Forest plan will be
required on widened areas on National Forest Lands with
respect to visual and wetland environments.
�-10-
a. Construct passing lane from Milepost 391 . 6 to Milepost
393.3, including pavement width tapers, length 1.7
miles. Pavement width will be as in (g) below. An
amendment to the Forest plan will be required with
respect to visual and wetland environments.
b. Construct fencin9 in open range area from the cattle
guard near Milepost 391.6 to the Franklin Basin area
near Milepost 397.2 along both sides of the roadway.
Fence type will be of a double-steel post and barb wire
of a design which can be laid down during non-~razing
seasons. The fence is laid down by the cattlemen's
association to prevent damage due to snow. The fence
may be located a distance from the highway to avoid
visual detection.
c. Tony Grove intersection (Milepost 393.7 - Provide left
turn deceleration and storage lane for up-canyon turns
into Tony Grove area.
An amendment to the Forest plan
for visual resources will be required.
d. Replace Tony Grove Creek culvert (Milepost 393.8) on
original alignment. This is a high- accident location.
New crossing will be 4 feet wider than the approach
roadway or 44 feet. Appropriate guar'drai I prot~~ction
will be provided. An amendment to the Forest Plan will
be required with respect to visual, aquatic and
riparian environments.
e. Bunch Grass Creek Culvert (milepost 394.2). Check
culvert for hydl~aulic capacity and structural
condition. Provide a culvert which will meet the
requirement for fish passage. An amendment to the
Forest plan will be required with respect to the
visual, aquatic and "riparian environment.
f. Replace Red Banks Bridge (Milepost 394.5) on original
alignment. Structure width will be 44 feet unless
tapers for campground widening run onto bridge.
creating need for additional width . Guardrail with
appropriate flare rate is required. A detour for
traffic and a temporary bridge are necessary. The
detour (for tl..,o-way traffic) will be located just
downstream of the present crossing. After the new
structure is completed the temporary bridge and detour
will be removed and the detour alignment restored to
original conditions. An amendment to the Forest plan
will be required with respect to the visual, aquatic
and riparian environment.
�-11-
g. Red Banks Campground (Milepost 394.6). Improve
campground intersection as in (c) above. An amendment
to the Forest plan for visual resource s will be
required.
h. Begin climbing lane at Milepost 394.9. End climbing
lane at Milepost 396.5, 1.6 miles. Roadway width wi ll
consist of three 12-foot traffic lanes, one 8-foot
shoulder (downhill lane) and one 3-foot shoulder
(up-canyon direction) Total width is 47 feet.
Milepost 394.91 to 395.00 is a high- accident location.
An amendment to the Forest plan for visual resources
will be required on National Forest land.
i. Replace Beaver Creek Structure at Franklin Basin Road
(Milepost 396.9) on original alignment. Pavement width
transitions will affect total structure width,
requiring a minimum width of 58 feet. Guardrail with
appropriate flare rate is required.
j. Franklin Basin Intersection (Milepost 397.0). Improve
this intersection as in (c) . above . This is a
high- accident location . The area from Milepost 397.0
to 399.0 is referred to as Beaver Canyon.
k. Replace Beaver Creek Structure (Milepost 397.5)
Replace on same alignment . New structure width is 44
feet. Guardrail with appropriate flare rate is
required.
1. Rechannel Beaver Creek (Milepost 398.1). Relocate 300
feet of creek to up-canyon (easterly) side of highway
in original channel as present channel is required for
roadway widening. New locations will lengthen the
channel and reduce gradient . . Two crossings of the
highway will be required. Concrete box culverts or
other suitable culvert type will be used. An amendment
to the Forest plan will be required on National Forest
land with respect to the visual, aquatic and riparian
environment.
m. Rechannel Beaver Creek (Milepost 398.3). Relocate 700
feet of creek to up- canyon (easterly) side of highway
in original channel. Conditions are the same as (1)
above. An amendment to Forest plan will be required
with respect to the visual, aquatic and riparian
environment.
�-12n. Rechannel Beaver Creek (Milepost 398.6). Roadway
widening will be placed on the up-··canyon (easterly)
side of the present roadway to the extent limited by
the nearby canyon topography. If sufficient widening
cannot be obtained, a portion of Beaver Creek will be
placed in a culvert and/or relocated to the west to
obtain roadway width. A design consideration will be
for fish passage through the culvert. A maximum length
of 400 feet of channel could be affected. An amendment
to the Forest plan will be required with respect to the
visual, aquatic and riparian environment.
o. Rechannel Beaver Creek (Milepost 39B.9). Relocate 500
feet of creek to up-canyon (easterly) side of highway.
Conditions are the same as in (1) above. An amendment
to the Forest plan will be required with respect to the
visual, aquatic and riparian environment.
p. Replace Amazon Hollow, Stump Hollow and surrounding
area drainage box culvert (Milepost 399.6). Widen box
culvert to accommodate wider roadway and pavement
transitions for the Beaver Mountain road intersection.
An additional width of 20 feet from the shoulder lane
to the headwall on each side is required to avoid
guardrail protection. Generally a better approach is
to eliminate a hazard rather than provide protection.
An amendment to the Forest plan will be required with
respect to the visual and wetland environment.
q. Realign and channelize SR- 243 (Beaver Mountain ' Road)
intersection (Milepost 399.75). This is a
high-accident location. Realign 150 feet of SR-243 to
create a conventional right-angled intersection.
Provide left lane deceler'ation and storage lane with
appropriate tapers. Total length of SR-89 affected is
1500 feet. An amendment to the Forest plan for visual
resources will be required.
r. Begin climbing lane at Milepost 400. An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required
on National Forest lands.
s. Realign through Curve #69 and #70 (Milepost 400 to
400.5). Realign 2700 feet of roadway a maximulll of 1.50
feet from the present alignment to attain 50 mph design
speed curves. The portion of the present roadway
removed from service will be obliterated, topsoiled and
reseeded with natural vegetation. An amendment to the
Forest Plan for visual resources will be required on
National Forest lands .
...
�-13t. Flatten Curve #71 from 80 to 60 30' (Milepost
400.6) to attain design speed. Highway widening f~om
Milepost 400 to 402 will be obtained by removing rock
material on the up-canyon (noy·therly) side of the
present roadway.
u. Flatten Curve #76 (Milepost 402.2) from 10 0 to 60
30' to attain design speed. An elevation decrease of
at least 4 feet is required to achieve sight distance.
The present 1,500 feet vertical curve will be increased
to 2,600 feet. An amendment to the Forest plan for
visual resources will be required.
v. Highway widening from Milepost 402.5 to Milepost 404.7
will be obtained by filling the down canyon (westerly)
side of the present roadway. An amendment to the
Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
w. Flatten Curve #80 (Milepost 404) from 100 to 60 30'
to attain design speed. An amendment to the Forest
plan for visual resour~es will be required .
x. End uphill passing lane from Garden City at Milepost
404.6. End uphill passing lane from Beaver Mountain at
Milepost 404.9. Between Milepost 404.6 and 404.9 the
maximum roadway width will cDnsist of two 12-foot
traffic lanes, two 12-foot climbing lanes, and two
3-foot shoulders; total pavement width of 54 feet.
Width transitions are included . An amendment to the
Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
4.
Section 3A: Bear Lake Summit to Bridgerland Subdivision
intersection (Milepost 404.75 to 409.4) 4.6 miles. Design
speed 40 mph, maximum degree of curve 11 0 15', nominal
roadway width 40 feet, two 12-foot traffic lanes, two
8-foot shoulders. Roadway width with passing lane - 47
feet (three 12-foot traffic lanes, one 8-foot shoulder and
one 3-foot shoulder). This section will have a continuous
uphill passing lane. Clear zone requirement - 18 feet
measured from the traffic line/shoulder line to nearest
roadside hazard. Elements of Section 3 are as follows:
An amendment to the Forest plan for visual resources will
be required on widened areas on National Forest lands.
a. Limber Pine Trail Head (Milepost 404.8). Provide
single access into parking area. No other specific
roadway improvements. Internal modifications will be
constructed as recommended by the Forest Service. An
amendment to the Forest plan for visual resources will
be requ ired.
�-14--
b. Flatten Curve #85 (Milepost 405.1) from 23 0 to
110. This action will move the centerline 80 feet
and require a new fill secti6n. The existing roadway
alignment will be removed and original contour
elevations and vegetation restored. Tree and brush
removal will be held to a minimum amount, and fill
slopes constructed to a slope rate acceptable for
revegetation . Retaining walls will be considered in
view of economics and tree savings. An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required .
c. Curve #86 (Milepost 405 . 2). Retain present alignment.
Roadway widening will be constructed on the downhill
slope. Tree removal is required. Retaining walls will
be considered as in (b) above. An amendment to the
Forest plan for visual resources will be required.
d. Sunrise Campground (Milepost 405.5). Provide single
access into campground without specific roadway
modifications. A left-turn lane from Garden City is
not proposed and would require more roadwa.y width in
addition to the passing lane of 4 above and be of
questionable value. An amendment to the Forest plan
for visual resources will be required.
e. Bear Lake View area (Milepost 405.5). Provide single
access to view area in Curve #88, located to obtain the
best sight distance possible. No specific roadway
modifications for the access will be provided. Regrade
(raise elevation), enlarge and relandscape view area
according to Forest Service recommendations . An
amendment to the Forest plan for visual resources will
be required.
f . Flatten Curve #88 (Milepost 405.7) from 18 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline shift of about
200 feet with accompanying earthwork (excavation)
required. The present alignment will be removed and
regraded to provide improved access for (e) above. An
amendment to the Forest plan for visual resources will
be required.
g. Flatten Curve #89 (Milepost 405.9) from 20 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline shift of about 50
feet is required with accompanying earthwork (fill)
required. The present alignment will be removed and
original contours and vegetation restored upon
completion. An amendment to the Forest plan for visual
resources will be required.
�-15-
h. Flatten Curve #92 (Milepost 406.2) from 20 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed . A .centerline alignment shift
of about 70 feet with accompanying earthwork (fill) is
required. The present alignment will be removed and
original contours and vegetation restored upon
completion. An amendment to the Forest plan for visual
resources will be required.
i. Flatten Curve #94 (Milepost 406.9) from 16 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline alignment shift
of about 340 feet with accompanying earthwork (some cut
and fill) is required. The present alignment will be
removed and original contours and vegetation restored
upon completion. An amendment to the Forest plan for
visual resources will be required.
j.
Flatten Curve #95 (Milepost 407.2) from 20° to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline alignment shift
of about 60 feet with accompanying earthwork (fill) is
required. The present alignment will be removed and
original contours and vegetation restored upon
completion . An amendment to the Forest plan for visual
resources will be required.
k. Stabilize landslide area (Milepost 407.5) . An existing
unstable landmass will be stabilized by application of
appropriate geotechnical techniques. An amendment to
the Forest plan for visual resources will be required
on National Forest land .
1. Flatten Curve #98 (Milepost 407 . 9) from 27 0 17' to
11 0 to attain design speed. This area is a
high- accident location . A centerline alignment shift
of about 670 feet with accompanying earthwork
(excavation) is required. Roadway gradient steepens to
about 10% in this area as a result of the curve
realignment. The present alignment will be removed and
original contours and vegetation restored upon
completion .
m. Highway widening from Milepost 408 to Milepost 408.7
will be obtained by excavating into the downhill
(westerly) s ide of the pY'esent roadway . Guardrai 1
protection on the uphill direction will be considered.
n. Flatten Curve #101 (Milepost 408.3) from 23 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline alignment shift
of about 30 feet with accompanying earthwork (fill) is
required. Portions of the present alignment will be
removed and original conto~rs and vegetation restored
upon completion.
�-16o . Flatten Curve #102 (Milepost 408.5) from 14 0 to 11 0
to attain design speed. A centerline alignment shift
of about 20 feet with accompanying earthwork
(excavation) is required.
p. Close access to Bridgerland Subdivision (Milepost
408.6) All subdivision access shall be provided as
described in (r) below.
q . Flatten Curve #103, 104 and 105 (Milepost 408.8) to a
single 11 0 foot curve or flatter, depending on the
alignment shift of (r) below . Earthwork quantities
appear to be minimal.
r. Relocate alignment from C~rve #105 to Curve #109
(Milepost 409.4). Also , construct an intersection for
the Bridgerline Subdivision with additional pavement
widening for protected left and right- turn movements ..
This is a high-accident location. The present
alignment will be removed and restored to original
contour and vegetation.
5.
Section 38: Bridgerland Subdivision to Garden City (Milepost
409.4 to 411.75) . Increase design speed to 50 mph, maximum
degree of curve 6 0 45', roadway width - 40' (47 feet in
passing lane areas.) Clear zone - 22 feet. This alignment
will follow an alignment similar to 63 as prepared by the
consultant. Roadway widening in this section will consist of
approximately equal amounts of cut and fill areas. Guardrail
protection will be considered on the downhill side of the
roadway.
a. Flatten Curve #109 from 80 to 6 0 (Milepost 409 . 7)
to attain design speed . Some excavation will be
required.
b. Flatten Curve #110 (Milepost 409.8) from 100 to 60
to attain design speed. Some fill will be required .
c. Flatten Curve #111 (Milepost 410.0) from 12 0 to 60
to attain design speed. Excavation is required.
d. Flatten Curve #112 (Milepost 410.1) from 12 0 to 6 0
to attain design speed. Embankment will be required .
e. Relocate access at Milepost 410.6 by closing present
access and providing a new access from another public
street, if possible. If the access cannot be closed,
then relocate to an improved location, providing the
�•
-17best design possible. A combination with the access at
Milepost 410.7 may be practicable. The access at
Milepost 410.7 will be considered according to the same
criteria as the access at Milepost 410.6.
f.
Begin uphill climbing line at Milepost 410.6.
g. Flatten Curve #116 (Milepost 411.2) from aO to 60
to attain design speed.
h. Redesign access at Milepost 411.2 to attain the best
design possible.
i . Redesign end of project intersection with SR-30 at
Milepost 411.75. Left and right-turn lanes will be
provided.
0169W
�ADDITIONS 'ID CONSERVATIONISTS' ALTERNATIVE FUR U. S. 89, FEBRUARY, 1989
The Conservationists' Alternative of August, 1987 was designed to be
in agreerrent with the folla.ving staterrent rmde in the Forest Plan for the
Wasatch-cache National Forest:
standard than exis ting . "
"The road will not be raised to a higher
This has always been the Conservationis ts' position,
and will rermin so.
The Conservationists' Alternative was designed to solve specific problems
wi th minimal environrrental irrpact.
The Agency Al ternati ve set forth in
LTanuary, 1989, except where it appears to spare 4 miles of the M
iddle Canyon,
represents nothing nore than adherence to arbitrary standards, without regard
for consequences, whether they be environmental (the proposed channelization
of Beaver Creek, for exarrple) or related to safety (the proposed 10% grade
in the Rich County section, for exanple).
The Agency Alternative atterrpts to
raise a facade of improved safety while in rea lity pronoting high speed travel.
The Conservationists' Alternative has enphasized that the entire route between
Garden City and Logan should be considered as a unit; thus it stresses the
safety value of keeping highway speeds as consistent as possible.
Alternative says to drivers, in effect, "Speed up."
The Agency
But the consequences of
high-speed traffic entering the Middle Canyon are i gnored.
In keeping with the overall philosophy of the 1987 Conservationists'
Alternative, we propose the following changes for evaluation:
1.
Logan Cave:
raise roadbed and nove road away from the river,
as per Agency Alternative
2.
Mileposts 386.6, 390.2, 391.1:
Agency Alternative.
of fill.]
raise roadbed as described in
[Contingent on availability
�Adell tions to Conservationists'
Alternative for U.S. 89 -- p. 2
These changes are proposed for evaluation in the DEIS; this evaluation
will determine whether they will be included in the final al ternati ve we
present to the public.
The follOtJing corrections need to be entered in our 1987 draft:
When
treating areas in the Upper Canyon (turning lanes, for exarrple), the reference
should be to "B2" rather than "Bl."
When treating areas on the Rich County
side, the reference should be "B3" rather than nOBl."
RICH COUNTY SECTION:
The Conservationists' Alternative for the Rich County portion of the route
is as follOtJs:
Maintain the present alignrrent.
Irrprove signing at the Bear Lake Overlook and at milepost 407.9.
The rationale for the Conservationists' Alternative in this portion of the
route is as follc:ws:
safety, aesthetics, and erosion control.
The Agency
Alternative proposes a high-speed design, thus creating an impetus for unsafe,
high speeds over the rerrainder of the route.
The Agency Alternative proposes
radical grades, as high as 10%, which constitute an obvious safety hazard.
The Agency Alternative would leave a rrass of scars over the hillside involved,
and would create numerous highly erosive cuts.
The Conservationists' Alterna-
tive contains none of t.l1ese flaws and works toward inproved safety by inproved
signing at areas of potential danger.
�\
February 14, 1989
Jack, Steve, Bruce:
I propose that we add something like the enclosed to our Environrrentalists'
Alternative on US 89. v-7hat do you think?
�[DRAFT]
Environrrentalists' Alternative for
u.s.
89, Logan canyon:
Rich County section
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------v propose that the alignrrent of U. S. 89 between Garden City and the
ve
surrmit of Logan Canyon be kept exactly as it is, and that signing be improved for the scenic turnout near Sunrise campground and the turnout at
M
ilepost 407.9. Improved signing at 407.9 will make the area safer; relocating the highway 670 feet away on a 10% grade, as the "Agency Alternative" proposes, would increase the danger in this area very considerably.
Keeping the same alignrrent for the Rich County section, and improving
the signing at points where traffic enters the highway (such as noted above),
will help keep speeds rrore uniform throughout the Garden City-to-Logan route,
thus improving the safety of the road. Altering the alignrrent on the Rich
county section will increase the speed there, thus decreasing the safety, and
will have the added negative effect of creating an inconsistency in speed over
the whole route. 1iIe consider a high speed highway on the Rich County section
to be an unfortunate impetus for higher speeds in the rest of the route. The
proposed steepness of the "Agency Alternative" is also a safety hazard, particularly in winter.
Keeping the same alignrrent for the
the line on the aesthetic damage on the
naintain erosion rates at their present
leave a nass of scars over the hillside
Rich County section would help hold
east side of the rrountain, and v;ould
level. The "Agency Alternative" v;ould
and would create highly erosive cuts.
�-- - - - --
To~
, I ..., ",..+~
J~
,
"",&,
+I..~ ~
c... ill ";,,. s....,
Jt.
..
)
'~f",7.c./ -I• ....... ~.~..
(.....~ .Iy/.;1-~rl~-'4r;I
h.".,'yll. ~*,II>'
14(),r -h
,.t
c'fif'1
0+- -It,;,. .ff#"...-I"'~.
1-4 ..... -t.u ,,+ s......i?
--
�Conservationists' Alternative for the Logan Canyon Road
between Right Fork and Garden City
(submitted to UDOT February, 1989)
This alternative is designed to solve specific problems with
minimal environmental impact. This is in contrast to the Agency
Alternative,
where the main
goal
is to increase the highway
design speed on all
except the 4 miles
between Right
Fork and
Lower Twin Bridge. To make a
point-by-point comparison of this
alternative with the Agency Alternative, you may obtain a copy of
the Agency Alternative from:
LynY"1 Zoll i n~1et~
Utah Department of Transportation
PO Box i.:::7L~7
Ogden, Utah 84404
399-5'3i:::1
Add additicn'"lal
war~Y"liY"l g sigY"1
such as "Nar~r~ow WiY"ldiY"lg Road Next 7
Miles". Tht~oughout
the eY"ltit~e
t~oute ptlt
up specific cI.wve
signs with advisory speeds where needed.
jC:ldd s i ~V'IS
fol'~ S i del'~oads
such c.'.\s
"R i ~~ht Fot~k 1 / L~ mil e".
signs will be needed at Wood Camp, Temple Fork, etc.
Cr,~
a 100' paved tapel'~
i l"lt 0 Right FCIl'~k.
fc,l'~
-±-lCIst .::i l l
u p-caY"IYOl'"1
tl'~affic
Simi
lal'~
wishiY"lg
Plow parking area in the winter.
Pave
downcanyon
pt~eseY"d;
from
bridge,
si gY"ls.
Replace Burnt Bridge on
spal"l bl'~ i d ge.
I~a
i se
present alignment
wi th 28'
wide c 1 ei:\'r~-
3' for 1000'; this removes an erratic bend
t~oad bed
away from the
from the road and allows the road to be moved
river. Contingent on availability of fill.
Prohibit parking on curve.
CONSERVATIONISTS'
ALTERNATIVE
1
�For cave access, pave two parking
areas immediately downcanyon
from Cottonwood
Creek: one
150' x
20' on
the river side,
arlothEn~ 100'
x 35' (taper~irlg
to 20') at the locatiorl of old
Cottonwood Creek road. Plow in winter.
A/1-',,(
/
Fot~est
vetl uY·lteer~
Serv i ce
groups
f '
j
"5.
con s truct
t o cave
(erd:;r~ arlce.
Replace structure on pres ent alignment with 28'
Raise roadbed
approx. 18" for 500'
on availability of fill).
wide structure.
to avoid flooding
(contingent
Replace bridge with
wide
bridge immediately
upstream from present bridge. This involves a new cut at the
downcanyon edge of the
bridge.
Rubble could
be
used to
provide a slow-vehicle turnout downcanyon of the bridge.
Provide recreational parking at upcanyon edge of the bridge.
Notj£=
Her~e
the A~]erlcy Altet~rlative pr~ oposes a 3
larle br~ idge, a
climbing lane nearly a mile long,
and the
beginning of the
wider, straighter, higher design speed highway.
Replace
\.'Ji th
wide clear - span bridge immed i ately
downstream of present bridge.
Sigrl "NO PASSING".
Replace structure on present alignment with 28'
Raise
r~oadbed
appr~ox.
18"
to
avoid
availability of fill.
CONSERVAT I ONISTS'
ALTERNATIVE
2
wide structure.
floodirlg.
�mp
3'32
Pave multipurpose turnout on side opposite river,
~9te:
plow in winter.
Hel"~e
the A~~eYlcy
Alte?t~native iYlcr~eases the l"~oad width even
more, increases the design speed, and begins to add frequent
pass i Ylg 1 aYles.
Add turning lanes.
Replace structure on present alignment with 28'
wide structure.
Replace str ucture on present alignment with 28'
wide structure .
Pave multipurpose turnout on river side of road;
Replace
bl"~idge
i.~
pt~eseYlt
1 i gnmeyd;
plow in winter .
with 28'
wide clear-span
bl"~idge.
Construct climbing lane from milepost 3'35 to cattleguard.
Replace bridge on
bl°~ i d geM
pr-o
esent
aliqnment
with
wide
clear~-span
Replace structure on present alignment with 28'
wide structure.
Replace structure on present alignment with 28'
wide structure.
~§?a y..§?l"~
Mc~!::.!ni
ai
1"1
I Ylt er~sec"!! i 01"1
(fI1 P
3'3'3. 75)
Add turning lanes.
CONSERVATIONISTS'
ALTERNATIVE
3
�Construct climbing
lane from milepost 401.5
fill) to mp 402.1.
(above Amazon Hollow
Construct climbing lane from 404.1 to short of Sinks Road.
Ret air, pl"~ese'(",t alignment; add
improved
signing
t '-n~r,e:.ut s.
Place cli mbing
lane sections
t '-n~ r, o ut s only where cutti n g
would
not
p . .~oblems.
Not~.:
c'-n~ve!:-3 a · d
....
slol-'J-vehicle
cause el"~osie:.r,
fe:'l"~
Ol"~
Hel"~e
the Ager,cy Altel"~r,ative emphasized speed by l'~ealignir,g
curve s and steepening the gradient to
up to
10~.
They also
plan a
conti nuous climbing
lane .
Initially we took no
position on modifications to this section because much of it
is not
on National
Forest land. However, the potential for
ma ssive erosion
problems
from
the miles of excavation
proposed in the Agency
Alternative forced
us to take this
new pe:.!:; it ion.
50
CONSERVATIONISTS'
ALTERNATIVE
fl, 'J
4
�If
Conservationists' Spot Improvement Alternative for Sections 1 and 2,
Logan Canyon
August, 1987
we
consider the most important issues involved here to be safety,
scenic values, and ecological integrity.
Our alternative is based on
the premise that rrodifications which alone or in the aggregate VX)uld
appreciably increase traffic speed in the Middle Canyon must be avoided.
we
relieve that increased speed in this section would be likely to lead
to more (and more serious) accidents.
The construction involved in
increasing the traffic speed would seriously disrupt the scenic values
for which this canyon is nationally k.n<:Mn, and VX)uld seriously degrade
the ecological integrity of the canyon, particularly in the riparian
zone.
Our goal is a highway that fits into Logan Canyon with minimal
ecological disturbance and maximum safety, rather than a highway that
purports to move the greatest number of people through the area at the
highest rate of speed.
Consistent with this emphasis, we strongly recommend enforcement of
speed limits and substantial improvements in signing as an important part
of our proposal.
As a corollary, changes in the roadway in the Upper
Canyon should not re so drastic as to encourage high speeds in that area
and thus a possible difficulty of driver adjustment to the lONer speeds of
the Middle Canyon.
we
have identified several gravel turnouts which should
re paved, and plowed oonsistently in winter, to aid the Utah Highway Patrol
in pulling over speeders and to aid in the passage of the occasional
emergency vehicle.
�LOCATION
RATION
ALE
PP0P0SFD AcrION
IMPAcrS AND PROBLEMS WITH
REJEX:TED ALTERNATIVES
Right Hand Fork
100' taper from bridge;
sign: "Right Fork 1/4"
safety
curve at 384.0
preliminary sign:
winding road next 7 mi.";
advisory speed sign;
specific curve ootation
(no change in alignment)
safety
visual sensitivity;
erosion into river;
spoil disposal
safety
visual sensitivity (6);
inpacts on river
Haguire Primrose
threat to threatened
species
W
ood Camp turoout sign: "Wood Camp 1/4";
and
plow parking area in
winter
Camp,
slow veh. turnout
00
change
downstream of
Burnt Bridge
pave present gravel
turnout; plow in winter
Burnt Bridge
widen to 28' on same
alignment; clear span
structural integrity
sign: "dangerous curve";
sign: "no parking"
sign: advisory speed;
no alignment change
safety
Logan Cave
Cottonwood area:
(a) structure
law enfo rcement;
vista; parking distressed
vehicles
not applicable
not applicable
visual sensitivity;
damage to river
safety
widen to 28' on sarre
alignment
damage to river;
visual sensitivity (7)
!
(b) parking
pave bNo areas: one on
visitor access to cave
river side downstream \
from structure, 150' X ~O;
one on rrountain side at (Old
Cottonwood road, 100' X 5',
tapering downstream to
100' X 20'. Plow in
winter.
Forest Service and volunteer groups construct
trail to cave entrance.
above Cottonwood
no alignment change;
replace 20 mph advisory
sign
(386.6)
safety
damage to river;
spoil disposal;
visual sensitivity
----------~-+_------------- ----~ ·-·----- ll__·-----------~----- -------+-------------
above Cottonwood
(387.1)
no alignment change
safety (avoid
speed)
erosion from loose
ma.terial
�PROPOSED AcrION
LCCATION
beloW Lower Twir
Bridge;
Lower Twin
Bridge
R<TIONALE
M
ove roadway wax. 20'
toward river before cun Ie
begins; widen existing
cut so alignment meets
new bridge parallel to
present bridge.
28' width; no pier in
river
I
IMPAcrS AND PROBW1S v,lITH
ALTERNATIVES
~D
I
I
replacement of bridge
wi th least environmental damage, consis- l
tent with safety
visual impacts;
excessive spoil
I
I
I
place downstream of
above Lower Twin
Bridge--slow veh. bridge, where present
road goes through cut
turnout
less cutting; rrore sight
distance
visual impacts;
excessive spoil
-----------------;------------------------+---------------------------~-------------------------
Dugway climbing l:me
N Change
o
prevent excessive speed
damage to river;
damage to visual
quality
- ---------------_._---- --------------+-----------------+----------------- --top of Dugway
1'-0 Change
prevent excessive speed
damage to visual
quality; excessive
spoil
_ --+------ - --+- - - - - - t - -- -- -
--Upper -TWin
Bridge
widen to 28' on new
structural integrity;
alignment immediately
safety
downstream of present
bridge. No pier in rive
~_.....-_-==____:::::__;_t_--- ---------- - - - - --r-.---- - .--------'--------f.---------------- - above Upper TwiI
Bridge (387.7)
damage to visual
no change in alignment
safety
1
quali ty ; excessive
add signs: curve; icy
road
spoil
I
I .
I
Temple Fork
intersection
advance signing:
Fork 1/4"
Ricks Spring are,,:
(a) bridge
28' on sane alignment
(b) alignment
(c) parking
~
"TemPl~
add sign: "N Passing"
o
maintain as is (both
sides); add signs:
"Ricks Spring 1/4"
"Pedestrian Crossing"
safety
safety
safety
safety
vehicles crossing traffic
lanes to park
______________~~-_--------------------1-.------.----------------- .-----------------------
"Table 2-5," B-1:
bridges and struct ~es
28'
maintain uniformity of
bridge widths
alignments:
1:elow North Sink
no change
safety
encourages excessive
speed
below M
iddle Sin '-
:00
change
safety
encourages excessive
speed
�PROPOSED Ac:r:'ION
lOCATION
RAT IO}1ALE
JMPACTS AND PROBLEMS WITH
REJECTED ALTERNATIVES
"Table 2-5,"
continued:
Intersections:
~a) Tony Grove
as in B-1
(b) Red Banks
00
(c) Franklin Basin
(d) Beaver
change
insufficient traffic
no change
no need (wide enough as
is)
as in B-1
i
safety
would necessitate 3-lane
bridge over Beaver Creek
Climbing Lanes:
(a) Red Banks tp
near Franklin
Basin road
(b) Stump
Add climbing lane
from m.p. 395 to
cattle guard
Add climbing lane
from just above Amazon
Hollow fill (401.5) to
402.1.
Hnlln17
to maintenance
shed
(c) to surmnit
Add climbing lane from
404.1 to short of Sink::
Road
I
safety; minimize cut;
safeguard river and
riparian zone
Safety problems with
high-speed traffic
approaching both Red
Banks and Franklin Basin
turooffs; damage to
river and riparian zone
safety; minimize cut
visual quality damage
safety; minimize cut
excessive spoil; danger
at snowmobile parking
area
Note: Passing lane
;t end short of surmnit, and
there must be .::l", ~'.::lte signing, regarding the
transition back tp 2-lane road, to safeguard
the Limber Pine 'I~ail turooff.
Signs: "Sinks Roa~ 1/4"; "Limber Pine Trail 1,114"
Table 2-6:
Sunrise
LLLP:JLuLnd
OVerlook
00
change
safety
2 skewed approaches as
in B-1 (sign & stripe)
multipurt=Ose
parking:
(a) m.p. 392
pave; plow in winter
(on side opp. river)
safety
(b) Bunchgrass
pave; plow in winter
(on river side of road)
safety
added sign:
below Ricks
Spring
"Narrow winding road
next 7 mi."
safety
driver confusion
possible
�...
-....
TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN LOGAN CANYON
AN ANALYSIS
The Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) asserts the Logan Canyon
highway is dangerous, with a significantly higher accident rate than an
average Utah highway. This assertion is used as a reason for undertaking
highway reconstruction and realignment in the section of the canyon between Right Fork and Ricks Spri'ngs . This assertion, however, i~ in fact
not supported by traffic accident and traffic volume data supplled by UDOT,
Division of Safety and office of the Engineer for Transportation, respectively. This is analyzed in the following discussion .
Data. The number of traffic accidents for any period is easy to obtain and is quite accurate (it comes directly from investigating officers
reports). Accident rates, however, are reported on the basis of each million miles of vehicle travel (MVT) and require good estimates of the average daily traffic (ADT) in a particular section of the highway. There is
only one perm
anent counter in the canyon, located at Card Guard Station,
located approximately at mile post 10 in the canyon. Values of ADT for
other sections, which differ considerably, are estimated on the basis of
temporarary counters, spot checks and extrapolations from the permanent
counter (UDOT, e.g., made a check of relative volumes of traffic in the
canyon at various locations for one week in June, 1976. Many of their conclusions are based on this inadequate sample). As a result, there is considerable uncertainty (error) in the numbers, an uncertainty that may invalidate in some cases the conclusions based on the data. This caveat must be
kept in mind at all times when examining the data.
Accident Rates. UDOT has divided the canyon into 7 sections, and reports accident rates for each section as found in table 1 for the 7 year
period, 1971-77 inclusive (data from update to "Preliminary Proposals
and A
lternati ves SR-13 (U. S. 89) Logan to Garden City, UDOT, 1977", provided by Gary Lindley, Project Engineer):
Table 1 UDOT Accident Rates
1971-77
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Section
Logan City to Dewitt Campground
Dewitt Campground to Right Fork
Right Fork to Upper Twin Bridges
Upper Twin Bridges to Tony Grove
Tony Grove to Beaver Mtn. Road
Beawer Mtn. Road to Summit
Summit to Garden City
distance
4.8 miles
4.3 miles
5.1 miles
5.3 miles
6.1 miles
5.1 miles
7.0 miles
average
State average, 1971-77, all highways,
Accident Rate per MVT
3.40
2.90
6.10
5.80
3.40
2.15
5.00 .
4.1T + 1.52
3.85
It thus appears sections 3 and 4 (the proposed project includes all of
section 3 and part of section 4) have a significantly higher accident rate
than the state average, and that the distribution of rates is biased towards
higher values in these sections.
�Our analysis of the data, based on the best ADT figures and a
number of consultations with the UDOT Engineer for Transportation, gives
lower values for the accident rates in all sections of the canyon for the
6 year period, 1973-78 (table 2):
Table 2 Accident Rates in Logan Canyon, 1973-78
Section
Accident Rate per MVT
l.
1.99
2.
1.64
3.
4.98
4.
5.61
5.
2.60
6.
2.97
7.
5.28
3.56+1.64
average
3.85State average
It can be seen the average accident rate in Logan Canyon is slightly
lower than the State average. Sections 3 and 4 appear to be higher. This
difference, however, is not significant statistically for section 3, as
determined by a standard statistical test ( t test, 6 year average vs. state
average, 90% (or higher) confidence level), while the difference for section
4 is just barely significant at the 90% confidence level, but not significant at higher levels. It may therefore be concluded section 3 is not
significantly more dangerous than the average Utah highway , while the evidence for section 4 is inconclusive.
Another statistical test that may be applied measures the significance
of a distribution, in this case accident rates by section, vs . an expected
frequency if all sections have equal rates. The results of this test (chisquared test)show the distribution of both tables 1 and 2 have a probability
between 60-75% of being random: that is, the apparent difference in accident
rates by section for the whole canyon has a 60-75% probability of being due
to random statistical fluctuation, and not to any real bias in favor of high
rates for sections 3 and 4. This test supports the conclusion that the Logan
Highway is, in fact, no more dangerous than an average Utah highway .
Fatal Accidents. In the period 1971-78 inclusive (8 years) there were
26 fatal accidents in Logan Canyon, distributed as follows (table 3):
Table 3 Fatal Accidents
Section
Number
Death Rate per MVT
. 174
1
8
.030
2
1
.1A4
3
4
1
. 042
4
5
0
.232
6
4
.339
7
8
Death rates were calculated in the same way as for accident rates in table
2. Combining the death rates for sections 1 and 2 (improved sections) and 3
and 4 (propesed project) gives identical values , 0.105 MVT . Drawing conclusions from such small numbers of data is statistically suspect ; the death rates
�for the improved and proposed project sections do suggest that improvement
of the highway (sections 1 and 2) does not improve the death rate (sections
3 and 4). If these numbers have any significance, they indicate improving
the highway from a 35 mph speed to a 50 mph speed, the relative speed
limits on the improved and proposed project sections, has no effect on
the death rate. Similar results can be anticipated for sections 3 and 4
if the project is undertaken. Again, any argument based on death rates
for the two sections as support for the project is invalid.
Conclusions. The results of this analysis of all available data are
clear. Logan Canyon highway is not more dangerous than the average Utah
highway, assertions to the contrary by UDOTnotwithstanding. Considering
the highway is a winding mountainous road, often covered with snow and
ice during Winter months in the upper sections, the accident rate is surprisingly low . It would be of interest to compare Logan Canyon with similar highways (Sardine Canyon, Soldier Summit, Little Cottonwood Canyon,
e.g.) with respect to accident rates. Similar arguments used by UDOT based
on Logan Canyon highway death rates are equally false: improvement of
the highway has no effect on death rates. The proposed construction
project for sections 3 and 4 cannot be justified as an improvement in
safety of a dangerous highway.
�Accidents and Traffic Volume in Logan Canyon
UDOT asserts a definite relationship exists between the accident rate
and volume of traffic in Logan Canyon . Since the volume of traffic becomes
quite large on a few weekends in Summer , it is argued by UDOT the highway
needs improvement to prevent excessive accident rates during these periods .
This assertion may be tested statistically by plotting accident rates by
month vs. traffic volume per month (data from UDOT report "Preliminary
Proposals and Alternatives, SR 13 (U.S . 89) Logan t~ Garden City , 19771~,
p. 23 and p. 41). The coefficient for this plot , r , is a measure of
the cor elation be ween accident rates and traffic volume . Such a plot
gives r 2 = 0. 37 (r 2 = 1.00 for a 1:1 correlation , and 0 for no correlation;
values less than 0.90 are suspect). Clearly, no significant correlation
exists between accident rates and traffic volume in Logan Canyon , and
such an argument cannot be used by UDOT to justify the project.
/
"
�TRAFFIC FORECASTS FOR LOGAN CANYON HIGHWAY
UDOT assumes an exponetial growth rate of 4% annually for traffic
volume in Logan Canyon. This growth rate is used as an argument to justify the proposed highway improvement project in sections 3 and 4 (Right
Fork to Ricks Springs) of the canyon. An analysis by Dave Schimpf based
on UDOT average daily volumes of traffic (ADT) indicates the growth is
better expressed by a linear relationship than the exponential relationship used by UDOT, at least through 1975. This gives a significantly lower
prediction for traffic volumes than the exponential model .
More importantly, however, recent data for 1975-79 indicate
traffic volume peaked in 1977, and has in fact declined in both 1978
and through July, 1979 (last data). Clearly, the effects of fuel prices
and potential shortages have not been taken into account by UDOT (table 4):
Table 4 Changes in ADT, 1978-79
Date
2.4 % decrease from December, 1977
December, 1978
July, 1979
3.0 % decrease from July, 1978
data from Card Guard Station, Logan Canyon.
Clearly, in contradiction to the forecasts of UDOT, traffic volume
in Logan Canyon has decreased significantly in the last 2 years. If this
trend continues, and considering the world petroleum situation this appears
probable, future use of the highway will be less than at present, and any
argument seeking to justify construction of the proposed project on the basis
of projected increases in volume of traffic is invalid.
�
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Alternatives to proposed Logan Canyon construction
Description
An account of the resource
Several alternatives to the proposed construction in Logan Canyon including: concern over the expansion and curve reduction in Logan Canyon, Agency Alternative, Additions to Conservationists' alternative for US 89, Environmentalists' alternative, Conservationists' alternative for Logan Canyon Road between Right Fork and Garden City, Conservationists' spot improvement alternative, traffic accidents in Logan Canyon, and the traffic forecast for Logan Canyon Highway.
Creator
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Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Administrative records
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1980-1989
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, MSS 314, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon/Logan Canyon Coalition Papers, 1963-1999
Is Referenced By
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View the finding aid for this collection at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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application/pdf
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MSS314Bx1Fd2.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/fa672d65e76caf9ce2d084aff995456b.pdf
5e5fc2d36374c29656e02963ef263214
PDF Text
Text
655 Canyon Road
Logan, UT 84321
August 22, 1994
Mr. Dave Berg
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84119
Dear Mr. Berg,
As a charter member of Citizens for the Protection of Logan
Canyon and a longtime activist on the Logan CanyonlU.S. 89 question,
I have recently had the opportunity to study the preliminary draft of
the Record of Decision. I write now to tell you that in my opinion,
the ROD manifests the same errors and oversights, and the same
fundamental mispapprehension, that so unfortunately characterized
the DEIS and the PElS.
The basic problem with the ROD is that the purpose and need
for the project have simply not been established. The traffic-flow
projections and th~ safety argument are still being based on deeply
flawed data. The ROD admits problems with the data but goes right
on to assume the essential correctness of all assumptions flowing
from the faulty statistics. Without rigorously collecting and checking
traffic flow data over a period of time, maintaining consistent check
points, how can UDOT make any believable projections of flow for the
future, and how can UDOT present any accident-rate analysis at all?
The fact is that there is no traffic problem in Logan Canyon,
and no particular safety problem other than the slow deterioration of
three bridges.
The ROD skims over this huge and glaring hole in the project's
rationale. It then proceeds to handle the comments, questions, and
opposition of the public with what must be called pure arrogance. To
the very serious objection that no study was ever done on people's
values and perceptions concerning the Canyon, the ROD devotes only
eight dismissive words. To the often-proposed idea of using turnouts
instead of passing lanes, the ROD has no substantive response at all .
To the detailed and specific critiques of UDOT's traffic and safety
numbers, critiques offered by several highly qualified scientists, the
response is simply that UDOT used standard and professional
methods of analysis. This is not a response.
To the concept that
•
•
•
�Logan Canyon is as much a destination as a route of travel to
somewhere else, and thus should be treated in a special way, the ROD
simply says the canyon is both a destination and a route, and then
goes ahead to treat it as a route only.
I believe an objective observer must conclude that UDOT has
never truly considered the objections to this project. They only
conducted an EIS when forced to. They hired a consulting firm that,
to judge by the evidence, gave them what they wanted--a green
light. They absolutely ignored overwhelming public opinion against
their "preferred alternative" and in favor of the Conservationists'
Alternative.
They continue to use, and possibly abuse, flawed basic
data in order to justify their project. The conclusion appears
inescapable: UDOT wants to build this project, and will let nothing
stand in their way.
If I may offer a suggestion: Issue a ROD on the three bridges
(these have never been a point of contention), and then, while the
bridges are being rebuilt, conduct a genuine Environmental Impact
Statement process and issue a Supplemental EIS on the remainder of
the project.
Sincerely,
Thomas J. Lyon
�February 10, 1989
Dale Bosworth
Supervisor, Wasatch-Cache National Forest
125 South State St.
Salt Lake City, Utah, 84111
Dear Dale:
I regret I was unable to attend the meeting concerning the
Logan Canyon Highway Project on February 3. Unfortunately, it was
necessary for me to be out of Logan.
I have read the latest (Jan. 20th) version of the Agency Alternative for the project, and I am greatly concerned. I do not wish to analize it in detail here, but only to give you some general comments:
1. This is basically the high speed alternative in the preliminary
DEIS. We appear to be just about where we were over two years (and
endless amounts of time and energy) ago.
2. The middle section of the Canyon has been reduced to only 4 milesfrom Right Fork to lower Twin Bridge; we regard the middle section as
the entire distance from Right Fork to Ricks Springs. This redesignation,
with the attendent upgrading of the road to a 35 mph design (probably
50 mph signing) from Twin Bridge to Ricks Springs is unacceptable, since
the consequent environmental damage will be severe.
3. The high speed design of the upper section will result in unacceptable environmental impacts, particularly in the Beaver Creek and
Summit sections.
4. There are several safety concerns vlith respect to the placement
of passing lanes, especially in the Dugway and near the Limber Pine
turnout.
5. The implementation of this alternative requires 45 (!) ammendments to the Forest Plan, surely a new worlds record for any forest
plan involving a single project. The cumulative effect of this large
number of ammendments is such that a major change in The Plan will
be required - a revision, with everything that implies. Attempts to
get by with an ammendment will certainly be appealed.
6. The Agency Alternative has little detail, making analysis of
its impacts by citizens not throughly acquainted with both the area and
the previous history almost impossible. If it appears as such in the
EIS, the EIS will be challenged as not meeting NEPA criteria.
7. The cover letter sent with the alternative, bearing the signatures of the three agency engineers, attempts to disclaim the alternative as a "preferred" alternative. This is, to say the least, disingeneous. Any alternative that is endorsed by a Forest Service rep-
�presentative is clearly destined to become the "preferred alternative."
I wish to repeat something live said in previous meetings with you: we
accepted the Forest Plan on the assumption it was to be taken seriously
by you. It states, e.g., that liThe road will not be raised to a higher
standard than existing." (Chapter 6, p. 236). Other places in the plan
are clear about maintining the scenic quality of the highway (VQO classification, e.g.). You have recently designated the highway as a "Scenic
Byway". If the Plan had proposed the kinds of changes found in the Agency
Alternative, it certainly would have been appealed. To abandon the Plan
now, under pressure from UDOT and FHWA, is to break faith with the environmental community and reduce Forest Service credibility to a new low.
Stn+:erely,
•
.--,
-7
Jack T. Spence
Dept. of Chemistry
Utah State University
Logan, Ut 84322
cc: Dave Baumgartner
Tom Lyon
Dick Carter UWA
Steve Flint
Bruce Pendery Bridgerland Audubon
Rudy Lukez Utah Chapter, Sierra Club
,
�tate 0
UTAH DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
EH. Findlay
.
Director
G Sturzenegger, P .
ene
.E
Assistant Director
H. H. Richardson,P .
.E
North Wall Avenue
POB 2747
. . ox
Ogden. Utah 84404
169
SamuelJ. Tay r
lo
Chai rman
W eSW
ayn . inters
Vice Chai r man
JamesG. Larkin
February 2, 19MaunCox
Tdd G. Weston
o
Elva H. Anderson
Secretary
Disl.ri cl Directo r
To Whom It May Concern:
The attached document is an alternative for improvements to SR-89 in Logan
Canyon. Elements of the alternative have been carefully examined by
representatives of the UOOT, FHWA, and USFS. This document should not be
considered as a preferred alternative, nor as completely addressing impacts of
the suggested elements, but as one alternative of many possible alternatives.
If the environmental impact on an element by element, and total element basis
is acceptable, as analyzed in the environmental impact statement, then the
elements of this alternative should be pursued. This alternative will be
included in the Environmental Impact Statement.
Various groups may wish to meet with agency representatives to discuss this or
other improvement concepts. Arrangements can be made by contacting Lynn
Zollinger at 399-5921.
Sincerely yours,
Richard Harris, P.E.
USFS, Forest Engineer
LRZljw/0924J
an equal opportunity employer
n Silver, P.E.
, Area Engineer
n R. Zo lnger, P. E.
Preconstruction Engineer, 0-1
�655 Canyon Road
Logan, tIT 94321
January 17, 1989
Dave BaUTIBa:r tner, District Ran er
U ..
Fores t Service
860 N. 1200 r: .
Logan, UT 84321
J
.
Dear Dave:
Stew Flint provided Ire vlith a ooPY of tJ'1e "agency alternative"
on the Logan Canyon Jigrrway, and. I presume you might t:e interested in
having ccmnents on it.
The dOC1..ltmnt represent:.S no significant change frQ"ll tJDOT' ~' 1979
p lans for Logan ('",,'lIlyon. It reflects absolutely none of the I.D. team' s
input, delivered in bA16nty-two meetings, each of several hoUrs' duration.
It reflects no environrrental consciotl."3ness at all, but i s Jasically an
en1]iI1eering statement. It makes the old, thoroughly discredited ar<Jl!frent
ti'.at flattening curves (t.l)ereby increasing speeds) is sorreh<:Hl going to
inprove safety. In sum, this document tal<.es us back to s qu8le one in
the whole process. It a.:OlJI1t'3 to a declaration of \iar against the canyon
and against the p...~ple defending it.
'!'he rrost g laring p rocedural flat., in this OoCllInf'..nt is that it offers
onl y vague inforrration on just ",hat cons truction is contemplated, in
s:pecific places. It defers consideration of specific construction plans
until a later hearing--later than the hearings for the DElS. If I am not
mistaken, this is not )EPA Folicy.
This dccurrent calls for 49 amendments to the Forest Plan. vJhy not be
straightforward about it and say that the Forest Plan, as it applies to
logan Canyon, is totally irreleva.1'1t? The cumulative effect-s of 49
J:nPJ1ts surely add up to a revised Forest Plal1.
It seem..g apparent that the
Forest Service has in eff~"Ct ded.ded that Logan canyon i s in fact !'lot any
kind of a special scenic resource i so let's revise the Pla."'1 to reflect the
actual assessment of the Forest Service.
"
The re-channeling of Eeaver Creek is an enviro11l:!'ental outrage, and I
believe it itlill be seen this TNay by sportsnan's groups as vlell as by anyone
generallv concerned \vl. th the environi11E:mt. The extraordinary number and
- passing lanes in the upl?6r canyon ".,ill silt~)ly invite high spgeds,
of
t..'1u~ reducing safety.
rrh.e three engineers ~'lho drew up t..'1is doCUi1Ent do
not appear to realize that flOv within a system cannot be faster t.~an its
l
slCY.Nest single point ~ their p lans for Logan Canyon vlOuld have areas of
very high speeds suddenly funneling dO'VTI to areas of lo,..er speeds. This
could be calaITlitous.
I will save deta:i..led <::x::lII'!.rent~ on each mile or tenth of a mile for a
future opportunity. \ t present I will only Sllnmarize by saying that the
ph1.1of'"ophy behind this "agency alt.emative" is only too clear. vf uat dis"
tresses me alrrost equally with the contemplated envirol1I'l'ental destruct.i.on
is the Forest Service's apparent acquiescence in it.
~
c mcere1y,
·
Thomas J. Lyon
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R-234
RECEIVED
MAr 29
emoran um·
UTAH DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATIC1N'987
.CH2 M HII.J..
DATE: May
TO
. Those listed Below
•
19,~~7
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FROM
: R. James NaegI '
.-, "1!; lnee f
Location and Enviro~ ental Studies
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SUBJECT: Logan Canyon,
u.s.-84
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Study
Biological Assessment
•
Atta ~ hed
is a copy of the Biological Assessment done by
Stanley L. Welsh, Endangered Plant Studies, Inc., of Orem
Utah.
The Maguire Primrose found in the project vicinity is
the object of the Biological Assessment.
If you have questions or comments, please contact John Neil
of our office at 965-4227.
Thank you for your cooperation.
RJN/JNeil/ps
Attachment
cc:
~~
Robert Ruesink, U.S. Fish & Wildlife
Daniel Dake, FHWA
s.tan.. Nuffer, CH2M Hill
Eduardo Norat, UDOT
John Neil, UDOT
•
•
�•
•
ENDANGERED PLANT STUDIES, INC.
129 North 1000 East
Orem, Utah 84057
(80n 225-7085
18 May 1987
James R. Naegle, P.E.
UTAH DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, Utah 84119
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Utah Department TranlpOnallori
location & Environ. Sludies
This report is in response to your letter of 5 May 1987 delivered to EPS
Dear Mr. Naegle:
•
MAY 1 9 1987
from the Utah Department of Transportation on 7 May 1987 regarding a
biological assessment of a segment of the highway in Logan Canyon
' (Project No. 1371163, FO; Authority No. 5988).
An on-site survey was conducted during the period May 11-12 on a segment
of the Logan Canyon highway adjacent to and east of the Wood Camp
Trailer Park to the vicinity of milepost 385, a distance of
approximately 1000 feet, and for another 1000 feet east of there to
assure coverage of a second population of of Maguire primrose (no. 5 of
the attached map).
Prior to the on-site survey a literature review was undertaken.
Specific references were sought concerning present knowledge of the
distribution of Primula maguirei, a species listed as threatened under
stipulations of the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended.
Literature reviewed included status reports by Welsh in 1979 and the
Utah Native Plant Society (Padgett 1987). The latter report is
sUlmnarized in an Apri 1 1987 report to the Utah Department of
Transportation by CH2M Hill, which was made available by your office.
The Maguire primrose is apparently a calciphile, restricted to Laketown
and Fish Haven dolomite formations. It js likewise a mesophyte, growing
where moisture is available at least through the flowering period, which
apparently is from early April to after mid-May. Plants in more arid
and exposed sites flower first, followed later by those of the more
protected and shaded areas.
Proposed highway modifications, alternatives 81, C1, and D1, were
considered. All are essentially within the area of concern for a
principal population (designated in reports as population 4) of the
Maguire primrose. The plant occurs on outcrops of limestone south of
the highway, beginning at a point approximately 700 feet west of
milepost 385 and extending east to a point approximately 350 feet west
of that milepost. The population, estimated to contain 176 clumps of
•
Maguire primrose (Padgett 1987), occurs in small aggregations on exposed
boulderlike outcrops at the west edge of the population. The initial ,
ano
(westernmost) occurrences are about 40 to 50 f'eet above the h
about that same d
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the limestone is exposed as a cliff-forming unit and the population is
largest in the area where it is most exposed to ~h.f= li i,gb!.Jay, • ..aO u.L ,550...
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feet west of milepost 38.5 - At that most developed and deeply shaded
__
exposure the plants occur in profusion, beginning at a point estimated
at about 30 feet above the existing road. Eastward the exposure trends
upward in elevation and the population follows that exposure to perhaps
a hundred feet above the roadway.
The second population in close proximity to the proposed modification
(population 5) begins some 400 or 500 feet to the east of the east end
of the area of concern. The plants are more remote from the highway and
the plants are more scattered. There does not seem to be any potential
impact of the present proposal on that population.
Three other plants were noted in the CH2M Hill report indicated above.
They are Erigeron cronQuistii, Musineon lineare, and Penstemon
compactus. All are currently cited as Category 2 plants in the Federal
Register, indicating that they are possible candidates for future
listing processes. Of these species only MusineQn was noted within the
proposed construction site. The species is a corrnllon component of the
limestone cliffs plant couullunities in Logan Canyon. It is growing with
the Maguire primrose at the population 4 site. The proposed action is
not thought to constitute a significant threat to the Musineon or t o the
other category 2 species.
•
•
Two concerns were stated in the CH2M Hill report for the Maguire
primrose, especially at population 4. Other populations (2, 3, and 6 )
known for the species are considered by me to be too remote from the
construction site as to be threatened by the proposed action. The
concerns involve cold air drainage down Logan Canyon, and the moderating
effect of canyon bottom vegetation on adjacent cliffs serving to buffer
the existing populations of Maguire primrose. To these can be added a
third concern -- dust from construction activities. Dust might overlay
stigmas thus providing competition for pollination and reduced seed set.
err?
tu( 'Concern
I
number one, cold air drainage, does not seem to be significant.
The draina e of cold air is expected to continue atGUt- as i n th e pasf ,
regardless of highway modifications. The second concern is probably
more lmportar.t, but, it s 0 rd be 0 ed, that the best developed part of
the population of Maguire primrose at pop~lation 4 is on the most
=7
exposed portion of the cliff system (i.e., there is little or n~
~
screening ve etetation betwe
e 0 ulation....and-the road). _However,
in pow of action all possible care should be given to preventiOn of
wholesale removal of the remaining screening vegetation. Only that part
of the canyon bottom vegetation apsolutely in the way of_construction
should be removed. The third concern, dust, can be mitigated by waiting
until the flowering period is over prior to corrmencement of construction
activities, i.e., construction should commence no earlier than June.
" -- - - --
The nearest approach of the construction is at the bend of the road at
the westernmost edge of the population 4 site. It is understood that as
•
much as 10 feet of the toe of the ridge might have to be removed to
allow proper alignment of the roadway. This sho~ld cause no problem to
the PQ,Qulation if the rockwork is
dertaken I-lith s~re. Blasting shou l d
be kept at a minimum and proper barriers constructed as to prevent
•
�uphill scattering of debris.
--
--
If the recommendations cited above are followed there should be minimal
or no 'mpiilc-t- to- the_Magui re primrose PQpulation 4. The other
populations will not be adversely affected.
,
With best regards,
Sincerely yours,
.
,
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Portion of the Mount Elmer 7.5
minute quajrangle map s~owing
the approximate boundaries of
populations 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.
'~25
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�45 ~~ - 400 W
Logan, UT S4321
24 .January, 1989
Dear Dave,
Since we last t<11ked, Lynn Zollineer has g iven us the oppor tunity
to reviJe the conservationist's proposal. We have decided to take
advBn tage of tLi s oH)ortuni ty. 'Nhi Ie we do not plan 8 Y1.y maj or change s
in our plan of a year and a half ago, this will p€rmit us to
rc: sp~nd once again wi th our cOIJ.Jerns over UDO'l" s al-'parent preferred
a 1 terYla ti ve. We can a Iso update t h e few 10ca ti ons w!lere thin["s
have eh8.nged.
As I m enti~n ed last week, the a gency altel~ative seems to be the
D alter~ ative fer all except 4 miles. We share your concerns ttat
the environm
ental analysis w!lich we have seen is weak. The desires
of UDCT to put much of this (eg. rubble disI)osal) off un. til the
"design hearings" is particularly worri some.
We will be in touch when we produce this reviseo draft. If UDCT
would be willing to meet with us now we can once again try to
expl.ain our concerns.
Sincere1..y,
/U~ 2-:-e~:r
Steve Flint
•
Copies: Tom 1,";on /
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Jacij:kSpence
B'ruce Pendery
•
P. S. It is also disappointing to note that, despite the national
recognition which the Forest Service has given to the scenic
qualities of Logan Canyon, UDOT has put off all ~ention of
turnouts until the design hearings. I worry thc:.t "Sight distance
and tapers" will be difficult to include, so we will end up
with no turnouts.
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Dear Dave:
T
--In gene ral t his plan ." t ··l'l""".:.'
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January 22, 1988
Editor, The Herald Journal
75 W 300 N
Logan, Utah 84321
Dear Sir:
As a member of the 10 team responsible for preparation of technical information for the Logan Canyon highway project EIS, I am
appalled at the recent decision by UDOT to pursue the maximum development alternative.
•
If this alternative is implemented, most of the canyon from
Right Fork to Ricks Springs (as well as major sections of the upper canyon) will be severely affected. Much of the free running
river will be channeled within retaining walls, the river bed itself will be altered, the riparian zone (on which the wildlife
depends) will be destroyed, the fishing and water quality will
be degraded, the river will disappear beneath cantilever structures,
the lovely riv~rside rock ledges will by dynamited, huge cuts
.
in the hillsides will be made, thousands of cubic yards of fill
will be dumped into side canyons, large amounts of conifer forest
and other vegetation will be bulldozed and Logan Canyon as we
now know it will be gone forever.
UDOT has made this decision in spite of the overwhelming public opposition to this alternative expressed in the scoping meetings, in spite of a legally binding Forest Service Plan which designates Logan Canyon as a scenic highway and prohibits the destruction consequent to the project, and in spite of the best efforts
of environmental representatives on the 10 team in endless meetings over more than two years to achieve a reasonable compromise
which protects the canyon and also allows necessary improvements.
In fact, the UDOT decision prepresents a no compromise position,
essentially identical to their position in 1980. In short, UDOT.
in their incredible arrogance, has listened to no one and has
learned nothing. Two years or work and over $600,000 of taxpayers
money have been wasted. Preservation of the scenic beauty and the
environmental quality of Logan Canyon is of no apparent concern
to this public agency.
Many people have asked me what they can do to protect the canyon. Telephone calls and letters to James Naegle, Utah Department
of Transportation, 4501 South 2700 West, Salt Lake City, 84119
protesting the decision, and to Dave Baumgartner, U.S. Forest Service, 860 N 1200 E, Logan supporting the Forest Service Plan are
needed. Later, there will be an opportunity for both oral and
written comments when the DEIS is released. Additional information may be obtained by calling 753-8548. Only a concerned
citizenry can preserve Logan Canyon from the mindless destruction planned for it by UDOT.
Jack T. Spence
361 Blvd
Logan, Ut 84321
-
�January 11, 1988
Mr. James Naegle
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 So. 2700 West
Salt Lake City, Utah 84119
Dear Jim:
Thank you for your recent letter concerning my efforts in the
Logan Canyon DEIS study.
•
While I appreciate your comments, I find them inconsistent with
your actions. After spending the better part of two years attending meetings, reading documents, checking calculations, etc., I consider it an insult not to be provided with a copy of the preliminary
DEIS. It cost us (Sierra Club, Audubon Society, Utah Wilderness
Association) $20.00 to duplicate the Forest Service copy, which I
understand was made available to us only reluctantly and at the insistence of the Forest Service. So much for the good faith of UDOT.
I also wish to make some comments on the role of the 10 team
in this study. It was agreed early on that all technical memos
would be approved by the team. This has not been done. It was
my understanding the DEIS would be approved by the team. This is
clearly not to be done. Finally, it was also my understanding the
10 team would make recommendations concerning a preferred alternative. Again, this is clearly not to be done. I regard this as
a breach of faith by both UDOT and CH2M Hill.
The preliminary DEIS has several major problems:
1.The Spot Improvement Alternative must be considered as encompassing all 35 spot improvements. It is a violation of NEPA
requirements to present a shopping list, with UDOT selecting some
number of improvements from the list at a later date.
2.In view of this, there is no environmentally acceptable
alternative in the preliminary DEIS except No Action.
3.NEPA requirements have not been met with respect to a range
of alternatives. The Spot Improvement alternative with all 35
projects at the level described is essentially the same as Alternative C.
Unless our alternative (now in the Appendix), or a reasonably
similar alternative, is included as a legitimate alternative, we
will oppose all alternatives except No Action, or request that the
DEIS be rejected as not meeting NEPA requirements. Legal action
with respect to this request may also be pursued.
I regret the culmination of two years of effort has resulted
in this situation. The environmental representatives on the 10.
team have repeatedly tried to convince UDOT and CH2M Hill that
�their concerns need serious attention. It is clear we have failed.
and the present situation must be regarded as adversary.
Sincerely,
/;"1, ~--:
, ??
"
;
/
cc:Dale Bosworth
Dave Baumgartner
Lynn Zo 11 i nger
Stan Nuffer
UWA
Rudy Lukez, Sierra Club
Steve Flint, Audubon Society
.
, I?;/ .
C
/ Jack T. Spence
v'
361 Blvd.
Logan, Ut 84321
�• •
I Izens
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Wilson
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21 September, 1987
ret ... -eJfe.-/ 1-4 f-€>e-J;
From: Steve Flint ~~-k .'5!/{ -;f: <
He: ~gan Canyon highway project
·~ e ...,
F..nclosed are the ~errestrial Resources Technical Memorandum and
the biological assessment for Primula maguirei. This biological
assessment is referred to in the tech. memo as "Welsh 1987".
One of the most glaring faults of this tech. memo is the failure
to adequately discuss the disposal of waste material. Table 2 (p. 21)
lists a few locations (but does not address impacts), but does not
admit that these locations will only accolnodate a small portion of
the waste which the action alternatives will generate. CH2MHill's
refusal to discuss site-specific impacts contributes to this problem.
Table 1 (p. 18) shows the high percentage of the riparian zone
which would be impacted. Most of this impact would be retaining walls
at the edge of tl1e river, destroying all vegetation on one side of
the stream.
This document downplays the impacts on P. maguirei. One of our
concerns, which is not mentioned in this document, is the proposed
location of & slow vehicle turnout adjacent to population 4. We believe
this location is unacceptable as it would remove too much vegetation.
In addi tion, there is a "collection" danger: the primrose is attractive
1IIlhl?n it blooms in the sprine:. We fear people may not know of its
status and attempt to remove plants for their gardens. A related
problem is the display of papulation locations in Figure 1 (p. 8) •
We believe this is proprietary information which should not be included
in a document such a3 this which is available to the public. Much of it
is not even necessary for this study: populations 2 and 6 are outside
the study area, and population 3 is across the river from the highway.
The biological assessment dismisses the impacts to the primrose
by speculating on its physiologival performance. It should be pointed
out that nothing is known about the species' physiology; all the
speculation is based on its habitat. In addition, while the author
(Welsh) has considerable experience in taxonomy, I do not believe he
has much background in physiology.
Other tech. memos will follow shortly.
Note: Despite the fact CH2MHill had provided UDOT with a
draft of the EIS, they have not produced a final
version of the Terrestrial Resources tech. memo.
This June '37 version is the most recent draft.
p.o. box 3580 logan, ut 84321
Of
•
�• •
-
Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon
P. O. Box 3451, Logan, Utah 84323 - 3451
April 5, 1995
Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon on
Thursday, March 30, 1995, filed a lawsuit against
Cache County and its County Council for not complying with the laws of the State of
Utah and the ordinances of Cache County when they issued a Special Permit to the
Westons permitting their sign in Wellsville Canyon. As an organization and as
individuals, CPLC has a long-standing interest in Cache County and its canyons. It is the
sentiment of the organization that permitting the sign, in direct violation of state and
county laws, set a dangerous precedent for Logan Canyon, as well as for all of the
canyons in the county.
Business signs are presently prohibited in Forest/Recreation Zones under the current
County Land Use Ordinances. Application for a Special Permit for the sign was first
submitted to the Cache County Planning Commission, which unanimously recommended
against the proposed sign because it was not in keeping with the Forest/Recreation Zone.
The Planning Commission suggested an alternative more in keeping with the Zone. The
County Council, which in the Ordinances has reserved to itself the final decision, granted
a Special Permit for the sign, which, in the meantime, had already been erected by the
Westons without a permit.
By filing this lawsuit, CPLC hopes to make certain that all county agencies follow legal
procedures when making decisions about public lands, including all canyons within
Forest/Recreation Zones.
CPLC could use your help in defraying the expenses of this lawsuit. If you have not sent
in your membership dues, please take this opportunity to do so. Or, if you are already a
member of CPLC, please consider making an additional contribution.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------please print legibly
CPLC MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION
Name
Address
City
State
Zip
Phone: Hom e_ _ _ _Work_ _ __
Areas of Expertise/ Willingness to Volunteer___________________________________
Regular Member ($10)
Student Member ($5)-:--_
I wish to make an additional contribution of: $10
$25
$50_ $100_
Other
-Send to: CPLC, P.O. Box 3451, Logan, UT 84323-3451
-----------------------------
•
�-, ,
,
•
Citizens for the Protection
of Logan Canyon
P.O. Box 3501
Logan, UT 84323
October 27, 1994
Mr. David W. Berg P.E.
Chief Environmental Engineer
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84119
Dear Mr. Berg:
With our thanks to you personally for your willingness to hear our
case, and our appreciation for being included in the process of
modifying the Logan Canyon ROD, we wish to communicate our
provisional and conditional approval of the revised ROD. Specifically,
this approval refers to agreements between UDOT and representatives
of CPLC, arrived at in meetings taking place from December, 1993,
through October, 1994, as to what the final Logan Canyon ROD should
contain. We understand and accept the "quid pro quo" nature of those
negotiations, and the following represents the present CPLC position.
General Issues of Utmost Concern to CPLC:
With the exception of the need for replacing bridges, CPLC is not
persuaded that the project's overall purpose and need have been
demonstrated.
(2) CPLC remains concerned with the accuracy and statistical reliability
of both traffic-flow and safety data collected by UDOT. Before CPLC
could agree to any accident-dependent curve-flattening (for example,
curve #5 in Section 1a), the organization, as part of the CAT team, would
need to study the data being presented.
(3) CPLC restates its deep concern for the protection of any and all
wetlands and riparian areas along the project route, and its concern for
the longterm disposition of these sites.
(4) CPLC restates its deep concern for the intactness of the visual and
aesthetic resources of Logan Canyon, and restates its support of the
Wasatch-Cache National Forest's Forest Plan of 1985, which states that
there shall be no degradation of the Canyon's visual resource.
(1)
�•
•
CPLCIUDOT
October 27, 1994
p. 2
(5) CPLC strongly supports the hiring of an independent consultant, to
be actively engaged in the design and construction phases of the project,
and to have site-specific stop-work powers during construction. CPLC
strongly supports the preparation of a detailed monitoring plan by
UDOT, which will spell out the qualifications, independence, and range of
specific powers of the consultant and the consultant's team, and will
detail the frequency and length of time of on-site inspections.
Point-by-Point Discussion:
[The following are specific issues of demonstrated concern to CPLC
members. Other issues may arise during the project's design phase.]
Roadway Widths
(1) CPLC understands that the roadway width from the beginning
of Section 1a to Lower Twin Bridge will be 26', and the roadway width
from Lower Twin Bridge to the end of Section 1b will be 34'.
(2) CPLC understands that the roadway width in the Lower
Upper Canyon -- specifically, from the cattle guard at Milepost 391.6 to
the Beaver Mountain turnoff -- will be 34'.
(3) CPLC remains concerned with the projected 40' roadway
width from Beaver Mountain turnoff to the Bear Lake Overlook.
A.
B.
Alignment
(1) CPLC continues to question the need for realignment of curves
in the project.
(2) CPLC strongly supports the present alignment for Curve #5 in
Section 1a.
(3) CPLC supports the proposed northern alignment for Curve #85.
Passing Lanes
(1) CPLC supports the use of slow-vehicle turnouts as preferable
to passing lanes, specifically through Section 2. CPLC remains concerned
with the number, location, and length of passing lanes proposed by
UDOT in Section 2.
C.
D. Bridges
CPLC understands that bridge replacement will the first
construction undertaken in the project.
(1)
�'.
0 '
•
,
.
••
CPLCIUDOT
October 27, 1994
p. 3
E.
Riprap and Retaining Walls
(1) CPLC strongly supports minimizing all uses of riprap and
retaining walls. Natural banks should be retained wherever possible.
F.
Location of the Batch Plant
(1) CPLC recognizes the complexity of environmental trade-offs
involved in the location of a batch plant for each specific phase of the
overall project. However, CPLC strongly supports the use of one batch
plant, located at the state equipment sheds, for all phases of the project.
G. Future Activity of CPLC
(1) CPLC looks forward to participating on the CAT team during
the design and construction phases.
(2) CPLC reserves its normal constitutional right to seek legal
redress in the event of noncompliance with the revised ROD, violation of
environmental law, or noncompliance with the 1985 Wasatch-Cache
Forest Plan.
. ..
Sincerely,
The Steering Committee
Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon
Mark Bowen
Katherine Gilbert
Nathan Hult
Lauren Keller
Ronald Lanner
Thomas Lyon
Paul Packer
Gordon Steinhoff
---
-
----------
Sean Swaner
Christine Hult
�.'
.'
Citizens for the Protection
of Logan Canyon
P.O. Box 3501
Logan, UT 84323
October 27, 1994
Mr. David W. Berg P.E.
Chief Environmental Engineer
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84119
Dear Mr. Berg:
With our thanks to you personally for your willingness to hear our
case, and our appreciation for being included in the process of
modifying the Logan Canyon ROD, we wish to communicate our
provisional and conditional approval of the revised ROD. Specifically,
this approval refers to agreements between UDOT and representatives
of CPLC, arrived at in meetings taking place from December, 1993,
through October, 1994, as to what the final Logan Canyon ROD should
contain. We understand and accept the "quid pro quo" nature of those
negotiations, and the following represents the present CPLC position.
General Issues of Utmost Concern to CPLC:
With the exception of the need for replacing bridges, CPLC is not
persuaded that the project's overall purpose and need have been
demonstrated.
(2) CPLC remains concerned with the accuracy and statistical reliability
of both traffic-flow and safety data collected by UDOT. Before CPLC
could agree to any accident-dependent curve-flattening (for example,
curve #5 in Section la), the organization, as part of the CAT team, would
need to study the data being presented.
(3) CPLC restates its deep concern for the protection of any and all
wetlands and riparian areas along the project route, and its concern for
the longterm disposition of these sites.
(4) CPLC restates its deep concern for the intactness of the visual and
aesthetic resources of Logan Canyon, and restates its support of the
Wasatch-Cache National Forest's Forest Plan of 1985, which states that
there shall be no degradation of the Canyon's visual resource.
(1)
�CPLClUDOT
October 27, 1994
p. 2
(5) CPLC strongly supports the hiring of an independent consultant, to
be actively engaged in the design and construction phases of the project,
and to have site-specific stop-work powers during construction. CPLC
strongly supports the preparation of a detailed monitoring plan by
UDOT, which will spell out the qualifications, independence, and range of
specific powers of the consultant and the consultant's team, and will
detail the frequency and length of time of on-site inspections.
Point-by-Point Discussion:
[The following are specific issues of demonstrated concern to CPLC
members. Other issues may arise during the project's design phase.]
Roadway Widths
(1) CPLC understands that the roadway width from the beginning
of Section 1a to Lower Twin Bridge will be 26', and the roadway width
from Lower Twin Bridge to the end of Section 1 b will be 34'.
(2) CPLC understands that the roadway width in the Lower
Upper Canyon -- specifically, from the cattle guard at Milepost 391.6 to
the Beaver Mountain turnoff -- will be 34'.
(3) CPLC remains concerned with the projected 40' roadway
width from Beaver Mountain turnoff to the Bear Lake Overlook.
A.
.
-
-
Alignment
(1) CPLC continues to question the need for realignment of curves
in the project.
(2) CPLC strongly supports the present alignment for Curve #5 in
Section 1a.
(3) CPLC supports the proposed northern alignment for Curve #85.
B.
C.
Passing Lanes
(1) CPLC supports the use of slow-vehicle turnouts as preferable
to passing lanes, specifically through Section 2. CPLC remains concerned
with the number, location, and length of passing lanes proposed by
UDOT in Section 2.
D. Bridges
CPLC understands that bridge replacement will the first
construction undertaken in the project.
(1)
�•
CPLCIUDOT
October 27, 1994
p. 3
E.
Riprap and Retaining Walls
(1) CPLC strongly supports minimizing all uses of riprap and
retaining walls. Natural banks should be retained wherever possible.
F.
Location of the Batch Plant
(1) CPLC recognizes the complexity of environmental trade-offs
involved in the location of a batch plant for each specific phase of the
overall project. However, CPLC strongly supports the use of one batch
plant, located at the state equipment sheds, for all phases of the project.
G. Future Activity of CPLC
(1) CPLC looks forward to participating on the CAT team during
the design and construction phases.
(2) CPLC reserves its normal constitutional right to seek legal
redress in the event of noncompliance with the revised ROD, violation of
environmental law, or noncompliance with the 1985 Wasatch-Cache
Forest Plan.
. -Sincerely,
The Steering Committee
Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon
Mark Bowen
Katherine Gilbert
Nathan Hult
Lauren Keller
Ronald Lanner
Thomas Lyon
Paul Packer
Gordon Steinhoff
-- --------Sean Swaner
--
Christine Hult
�[DRAFT]
Citizens for the Protection
of Logan Canyon
P.O. Box 3501
Logan, UT 84323
October 20, 1994
Mr. David W. Berg P.E.
Chief Environmental Engineer
Utah Department of Transportation
4501 South 2700 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84119
Dear Mr. Berg:
With our thanks to you personally for your willingness to hear our
case, and our appreciation for being included in the process of
modifying the Logan Canyon ROD, we wish to communicate our
provisional and conditional approval of the revised ROD. Specifically,
this approval refers to agreements between UDOT and representatives
of CPLC, arrived at in meetings taking place from December, 1993,
through October, 1994, as to what the final Logan Canyon ROD should
contain. We understand and accept the "quid pro quo" nature of those
negotiations, and the following represents the present CPLC position.
General Issues of Utmost Concern to CPLC:
CPLC is not persuaded that the project's overall purpose and need
have been demonstrated.
(2) CPLC remains concerned with the accuracy and statistical reliability
of both traffic-flow and safety data collected by UDOT. Before CPLC
could agree to any accident-dependent curveMflattening (for example,
IS iff ~edicni: 1a), the organization, as part of the CAT team, would
Hud "' "tidy the data being presented.
(~, ClYte testates its deep concern for the protection of any and all
\f,t1flnd8 tiiid riparian areas along the project route, and its concern for
th' imtgtefm disp()jition of these sites.
(4) CftLC restat~s its deep concern for the intactness of the visual and
ae~thede res911tc~~ of Logan Canyon, and restates its support of the
Wa§a·t~h-Ca£he National Foreses Forest Plan of 1985, which states that
there shall b~ no degradation of the Canyon's visual resource.
(5) CPLC stroftlly iiUppOtts the hiring of an independent consultant, to
be ~eHv"l)' enga86td ifi the design and construction phases of the project,
iUld to tUlve ~ite"specific stop .. work powers during construction.
(1)
�CPLC/UDOT
October 20, 1994
p.2
Point-by-Point Discussion:
[The following are specific issues of demonstrated concern to CPLC
members. Other issues may arise during the project's design phase.]
A.
Roadway Widths
(1) CPLC understands that the roadway width from the beginning
of Section 1a to Lower Twin Bridge will be 26', and the roadway width
from Lower Twin Bridge to the end of Section 1b will be 34'.
(2) CPLC understands that the roadway width in the Lower
Upper Canyon -- specifically, from the cattle guard at Milepost 391.6 to
the Beaver Mountain turnoff -- will be 34'.
(3) CPLC remains concerned with the projected 40' roadway
width from Beaver Mountain turnoff to the Bear Lake Overlook.
B.
Alignment
(1) CPLC strongly supports the present alignment for Curve #5 in
Section 1a.
(2) CPLC supports the proposed northern alignment for Curve
#85.
(3) CPLC continues to question the need for realignment of curves
in the project.
C.
Passing Lanes
(1) CPLC supports the use of slow-vehicle turnouts as preferable
to passing lanes, specifically through Section 2. CPLC remains concerned
with the number, location, and length of passing lanes proposed by
UDOT in Section 2.
D.
Riprap and Retaining Walls
(1) CPLC strongly supports minimizing all uses of riprap and
retaining walls. Natural banks should be retained wherever possible.
E.
Location of the Batch Plant
"
.
(1) CPLC recognizes the complexity of environmental trade-offs
involved in "the location of a batch plant for each specific phase of the
overall project. However, CPLC strongly supports the use of one batch
plant, located at the state equipment sheds, for all phases of the project.
�CPLCIUDOT
October 20, 1994
p. 3
F. Future Activity of CPLC
(1) CPLC looks forward to participating on the CAT team during
the design and construction phases.
(2) CPLC reserves its normal constitutional right to seek legal
redress in the event of noncompliance with the revised ROD, violation of
environmental law, or noncompliance with the 1985 Wasatch-Cache
Forest Plan.
[signed]
�Peter W. Karp
•
Forest Supervlsor
Wasatch-Cache National Forest
Mr. Karp,
We are writing to you to request a rev iew of a previous
decision by the Wasatch-Cache National Forest. Recently, you
ammended the Wasatch-Cache National Forest Land and Resource
Ma¢hagement Plan to provide interim protection to the Stillwater
Fork for possible inclusion in the nation's Wild And Scenic River
System.
It is our opinion that both we and your River Inventory Team
believe that at least one river segment on the Cache National
Forest, and probably two, should be eligible as a "recreational"
river under the national Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. These
segments are the Logan River (Lower Twin Bridge to Beaver Ck.)
and the Right Hand Fo rk of the Lo gan River. There is currently a
proposed improvement of u.S. 89 by the Utah Department of
Transportation (UDOT). The proposed improvement might harm the
river's flee-flowing nature. Therefore it is important to
consider the Logan River (Lower Twin Bridge to Beaver Creek) now,
before said construction takes place.
We have evaluated this segment o f the Logan and found it is
free-flowing and outstandingly remarkable (see attached
documents). Your wild and Scenic River Inventory Team appears to
agree with us on the latter point. Co nsult Appendix D of the
recently amended Forest Plan. You will find that the
Identification Team ( IDT) found this segment might possess
outstandingly remarkable characterists in five (5) categories.
The IDT found the Stillwater Fork, which you set aside for
interim protection, might possess o utstandingly r e markable
characteristics in o nly one catego ry.
The problem may be that the IDT did not conside r the segment
free from roads because the Scenic Byway, U.S. 89, parallels the
river along this segment. However, we would call your attention
to the section of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act for assessing
the free-flowing nature of a recreational river, it states,
"roads may parallel the river for much of its length as long as
much of the road is unobtrusive or well-screened."
We request that you and your Identification Team reconsider
this segment of the Logan. We would prefer assessments of the
Logan from the source to Beaver Ck., Lower Twin Bridge to Beaver
Ck., the Right Hand Fork of the Logan R., and Beaver Ck. (source
to Logan R.). We believe all of these segments may qualify as
recreational rivers under the nati o nal Wild and Scenic Rivers
Act.
Sincerely,
Citizens for the
Protection of
Logan Canyon
�655 Canyon Road
Logan, UT 84321
June 23, 1987
Mr. Stan "luffer
CH M I-'ill
2
Box 8748
Boise, ID 83707
•
Dear Stan:
First, thank you for this opportunity to comment on the drafts
of the technical memoranda and alternatives for the Logan Canyon DEIS.
I consider this a genuine opportunity to (possibly) save a great deal
of many people's time and energy.
If the DEIS reflects these memoranda,
in content and bias, I think I can assure you there will be an extremely
strong public protest.
As was mentioned yesterday at the meeting in Brigham City, the chief
problem with the memoranda, with the exception of the one on aquatic
resources~ is their very obvious bias toward a major road project.
For
example, the socioeconomic memo devotes many pages to the dependence of
Rich County upon Logan for various goods and services. The clear thesis
of this document is that an "improved" road through Logan Canyon is vital
to Rich County':s continued life and to its future development--at one point
even industrial development is mentioned as a future possibility for Rich
County, on the assumption that an "improved" Logan Canyon highway would
make such a thing possible. The fact is that Rich County exists and has
existed without serious hindrance caused by the two-minutes-slower Logan
Canyon highway of the present. The assumption that some kind of industrial
development would be good for Rich County is rank speculation, and judging
from the experience of ' places like Evanston and Rock Springs, is untrue.
But to set this kind of chamber-of-commerce dreaminess forth as a real
item of probability, in a technical memo, is nonsense.
It is also highly biased. We are all aware of the number and strength
of the comments given at the Logan scoping meeting. But these comments DO
NOT APPEAR IN ANY FORM AND ARE NOT REFERENCED ANYWHERE in the documents
supplied so far. They have been completely ignored. The memo on visual
resources is a strange effort to quantify perception and aesthetics, and
results only in fragmenting and obfuscating the real situation into a bunch
of numbers. The fact is that the natural appearance of Logan Canyon is,
along with the ecological health of the river, the absolute primary matter
in hand. I can assure you that perception and the aesthetic sense are not
satisfied by numbers--they are based in an entirely different mode of
awareness.
This brings me to what may be the central problem in documents of this
nature. They attempt to state qualitative issues in quantitative terms.
A wise man once said that to do this is like judging the "Mona Lisa" by
weighing the paint. In the present documents, it is blithely stated that
if native trout are killed by construction, well then we can plant some
�Stan Nu ffer
June 23, 1987
page 2
hatchery rainbows "to supplement angler catch rates," [po 38] and everything
will presumably be all right. But this is not so. There is a very great and
widely perceived difference between fishing for wild trout and fishing for
stocked trout; as a matter of fact, this very difference is the basis for the
Logan River's attractiveness as a qual tty trout stream. And it is a primary
reason for the Logan River's being a "million-dollar" fishery. This difference
between quality and quantity cannot be mitigated. It is a basic fact of
existence.
In the same way, you cannot mitigate a road-cut across a hillside. It is
simply there, and it destroys the wholeness of the scene which arouses the
qualitative sense of beauty. This is what the people in the Logan scoping
meeting were trying to say, one after the other. The issues are beauty and
wholeness. You can't fragment these things into a bunch of numbers and expect
people to be satisfied, just as you can't substitute a flabby hatchery fish,
raised on food pellets and habituated to a looming human figure bringing food,
for a wild and wary trout in a natural stream.
The documents presented so far clearly indicate that none of the alternatives
preserves Logan Canyon. "Spot Improvements" was supported by a number of
people at the Logan meeting, including mysel f; but now "Spot Improvements" has
ballooned into a major realignment of the highway in several crucial and
environmentally sensitive sections, and cannot be supported any longer. It
is decidely misleading, and even deceptive, to place "Spot Improvements" next
to "No Action," because it is emphatically not the second-least-damaging
alternative.
.
The documents presented so far are biased individually and in the
aggregate. For just one example, "Aquatic Resources" mentions millions of
dollars being spent on the Logan River by fishermen, but this money somehow
does not appear in the socioeconomic memo. Why not? (If we get down to arguing
dollars and cents, which again is not the central issue here, I wonder if all
the alleged Rich County dependence on Logan amounts to a sum comparable to that
spent by Logan River fishermen.)
For another example, which appears again and
again throughout the documents, it is alleged that the present highway is unsafe
and that flatter curves and higher speeds would be safer. No documentation for
this assumption is ever presented, and my conclusion is that if there were any
such documentation in existence, it would have been brought forward very
prominently by now. I doubt that a wider, faster, flatter-curved road is any
safer than a narrow, slow, curvy one. People adjust their speed to the circumstances. Logan Canyon is a canyon; it cannot be made into something other than
a canyon. If there is a road in it, it will need to be a narrow and winding
road and people will have to drive at slower speeds on it. That's IF the
intactness and beauty of the canyon are to be saved.
I realize that your firm has spent a good deal of time and work on this
matter, and so I hesitate to say the following. But it is clear that the entire
set of documents needs to be redone and written without bias. The "Alternatives"
chapter is so biased as to be for all intents and purposes worthless; it too
needs to be entirely redone. "Spot Imp IOvements" in particular is a travesty.
Sincerely yours,
rhvmAA
Thomas J. Lyon
�
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Various correspondence from the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon, 1987-1994
Description
An account of the resource
Various corresponence from the Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon, 1987-1994. Most cover the topics of the agency alternative improvement suggestions, the biological assessment of Logan Canyon, and the endangered plant study from Utah State University.
Creator
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Lyon, Thomas J.
Spence, Jack T.
Harris, Richard
Silver, Duncan
Zollinger, Lynn
Flint, Stephan D.
Naegle, R. James
Pendery, Bruce
Welsh, Stanley L.
Contributor
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Berg, David
Bosworth, Dale
Baumgartner, David
Lyon, Thomas J.
Nuffer, Stanton S.
Naegle, James
Karp, Peter W.
Wilson, Wes
Subject
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United States Highway 89
Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
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Correspondence
Administrative records
Spatial Coverage
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
Language
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, MSS 314, Citizens for the Protection of Logan Canyon/Logan Canyon Coalition Papers, 1963-1999
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View the finding aid for this collection at: <a href="http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458">http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv63458</a>
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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MSS314Bx1Fd1.pdf
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a1bf1c740a1843b8a72b0a2392ae6f00
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Text
Whitney Floyd
MEXORANDUM TO:
Dean J.
FROM:
Jack H. Berryman
DATE:
November 28, 1961
SUBJECT:
statement on Road Construction' and Resource Use
I would not want to see this College or University embarrassed. In that
spirit I recommend we do not delete the reference to Logan Canyon in the introductory section as has been suggested. For the record, these are my reasons:
1. The statement has been released with the explanation that it
would be printed with only minor editorial change. It is in the
hands of the press and agencies. It must have been duplicated
and circulated widely J as we have requests from allover the
country. It is now in page proof.
2. The reference to Logan Canyon has been quoted widely. Its
deletion would be noticed immediately and interpreted as a back
down. This would reflect adversely upon the University, damage
the cause we wish to serve and undermine the position of the
U. S. Forest Service.
3. The sentence is true. Damage was done. This can be authenticated. The Logan Can.ron road did stimulate our project. It
is the focal point and in future years will give added meaning
to the statement.
4.
Our supporters -- the state press (in fact everyone but the
Highway Department and the Cache Chamber) would be keenly disappointed i f they learned we yielded on this point.
,. We have already deleted every other reference to utah and
corrected an acreage figure that was misleading. We have assured
the ' Governor, the Chamber, the agenCies and the press that we favor
completion of the project.
6.
The passage referred to is introductory.
can only mean that we hit tlpay dirt".
The keen interest
There are other good reasons. Suffice it to say, I think we are not being
unreasonable. To modify the sentence might well be our undoing. I am fearful
a change would be used against us in the press.
�
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Title
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Memorandum from Jack Berryman to J. Whitney Floyd, November 28, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from Jack Berryman to J. Whitney Floyd, November 28, 1961. Notes on changes to the Road Construction and Resource Use statement.
Creator
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Berryman, Jack H.
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Floyd, J. Whitney
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan (Utah)
Medium
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Administrative records
Correspondence
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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(
WHAT SHOULD WE BUY WITH THE HIGHWAY USER ' S DOLLAR?
What should we buy with the highway user ' s dollar ?
u***
road buil d i ng
is an important activity, having far-reaching impacts upon people a nd resourc e
use."l
This is a statement which I personally endorse , and which I am s ure
expresses the opinion of the citizens of this State, not only as ev id e nc ed by
the creation of a State Road Commission in 1909, but also as evidenc ed by a c ts
of the Territorial Government in highway matters practically from the instant
of c olon ization by our pioneers.
It is also an opinion, which I am
sure ~
is
not unique to this State , nor is it recent in origin, as evidenced by national
legislation in the highway field, the most notable being the creation of the
Bureau of Public Roads and the continued interest of our elected
representa~
tives in good highways by the continued enactment of : Federal-aid to highways
1egis1ation o
I can concur with the statement that the College of Forest, Range and
Wildlife Management has a keen interest and responsibility
i~
the philosophy
of land and resource use, but I cannot and will not accept the inference in
your Committee's report that the Utah State Road Commission, and its Highway
. Department, has no interest except in the engineering concepts of highway
design and construction, and has made no
effor~
to determine economy and
social needs in the location and design of our State highways.
last five years, we have
spent ' ~lmost
thre~
million dollars
During t he
($2,821 ~ 910 . 00 )
through our Research Department, in-. cooperation with the U. S . Bureau of Public
Roads, and have sought the assistance of several consulting engi neering firms
of national reputation, as well as the University of Utah and the Utah St a t e
1Dary1 Chase , President , Utah State University
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University, in studying social and economic needs for the improvement to
existing highways and the location of new highways.
direct expenditures of the State Highway Department.
This represents only
It does not include the
cost to national organizations, such as the National Academy of Sciences ,
National Research Council, Highway Research Board, Automotive Safety Foundation,
American Association of State Highway Officials, and the Bureau of Public
for special studies on the national level.
Roads ~
These studies, as well as numerous
studies by other states and private engineering groups, findings of which where
applicable~
are being used as guides in our own highway policies.
It must be remembered that the State Road Commission and its operational
arm, the State Highway· Department, were created by acts of the State
~~gislature
and charged with certain responsibilities relating to highway matters.
As
such, its primary responsibility is to all of the citizens of this State and
is not limited to the small interests of special groups.
that the Commission has a
clos~d
This is not to infer
mind to the opinions and recommendations of
any economic, social, or geographical representation; but, in the final
analysis, it must be
re ,~ognized
that the Commission action is a matter of
judgement bas,e d .on the studies which have been made, in which such suggestions
must be evalu?ted in terms of maximizing road-user benefits and minimizing
road-user cost.
That such judgement is not arbitrary or capricious is borne
out by the amount 'of money spent on research to develop facts upon which
sensible decisions may be made for the orderly development of roads
and highways in the State of Utah.
on the type of generalities as
3
streets~
These studies are factual and not based
e~emplified
in the statement that
"')h'd c
the
new Federal Highway program alone requires 30 acres per mile of highwayo
will consume the equivalent of 11,000 Utah farms of 160 acres each."
It
It is
a matter of simple arithmetic, assuming that each mile of the Federal-aid
�- 3 -
Interstate System did take out of production 30 acres of land , that this
would be the equivalent of only 175 of Utah farms of 160 acres each, not
11,000 farms.
As a matter of fact, over one-third (328.4 miles) of this
highway is being built on the existing location.
Also, as a matter of fact,
many miles of this highway being built ' on the 605.2 miles of new loc a t ion are
being constructed on land which is not productive farm land or even grazing
land-~at
least I haven't seen much vegetation on the Salt Flats between Wendover
and Knolls.
The 1959 farm census indicates a total of 16,543 crop land units
of all sizes in the 29 Utah
routes.
Counties~
- There are 16 counties with interstate
The crop land units of all classes for these counties account for
10 , 637 units of the State total of
1,.2J~ , ?19 /w~
I
.
It, therefore , appears tha t
a deliberate attempt to mislead has been made in the Committee's report.
Less
than 10 per cent of the Interstate mileage on new location affects in any
degree productive farm acreage.
acres per
mi1e~
the t otal
a~reage
Assuming the 10 per cent to t .a 1 did c onsume 30
affected would be only
1 ~ 800
acres.
Using
the Committee's figure of 160 acres per unit, this would resul t in only 11.25
units rather than the
11 ~ 000 ~tated. .
If I wanted to generalize instead of
waiting for the factual da t a which will be developed from the American Fork
Impact Study being researched by There1 R.
~lack,
Department of Sociol ogy, and
Vernon Lo Israe1sen , Department of Economics, of the Utah St a t e
University ~
which I am confident will substantiate the generality , I could say that the
resulting economic benefits to the farm units
adjacen ~
to the Intersta t e
System, by providing greater utility from the improved transportation fa c ili t y,
will far outweigh any social-economic loss occasioned by tJe withd r awal of
such a meager productive acreage.
The me t hod by which the bes t of several
possible locations for highway improvements is determined , the Benefit-Cost
Ratio, assures that the minimum in land value compatab1e with highway se r vice
�(
- 4 and construction costs will be selected for final route location.
By inference the Highway Department is blamed in your Committee's report
for the roadside or fringe type of development that has, in some instances
in the past, followed the construction of a highway, especially on new
locations.
This is not a new problem to the Road
was recognized a long time ago.
Commission~
and its existence
It was a problem that was also recognized by
the State Legislature with the enactment of the Limited Access
permits the Highway Department to limit or control access.
Law~
which
For obvious economic
reasons such action has usually been limited to construction on new location.
The Highway Department never has had authority to zone or restrict land-use
on private land.
Actually, adequate legislation is already provided for local
government sqch as the cities and
count~es~
to provide such control by zoning
ordinances.
Such a statement as "These frequently become the sites for
junkyards~
shoddy developments, and other land~wasting areas" can only be refuted in
general, becc;tuse "frequen t ly" it is hardly measurabo
le
mile, one per 10
miles~
one per 100
~iles? :' O~~
0
Does !it mean one per
unfamiliar with Utah's high-
ways would receive the impression that our more than 6,000 miles of State
highways
~re
lined from State bqrder to State border with these conditions.
This is h~rdly ' a fact~ but even , if it were, it is beyond the legal ability
of the State Highway Department to control.
I agree that "BasicallY3 highways serve a strictly utilitarian
their function is to get people o nd materials
a
fr~m
one , place to
purpose-~
another~'t'~('~'(',"
and I adm:i t, in fact, I am proud of the progress : that has been made in this
State in providing highways to serve this basic need, but I believe the
responsibility of the Road Commission is first to provide for this basic need
and then to consider aesthetic values in terms of cost.
In the past it has
�- 5 -
been proven that Utah has not had sufficient funds to even adequately supply
these basic needs, let alone provide for aesthetic values with construction
dollars.
However, I would like to point out that when the funds are available,
as in the case of the Interstate System , that due consideration has been given
to landscaping and rest
areas~
and selection of highway loca ti on where extra
cost would not be excessive, that would preserve the natural beauty as far as
possible--for example, the ' Interstate location through Silver Creek Canyon
where the design provides for minimizing the cuts and fills by letting the
creek itself be the traffic barrier rather than a four - lane shelf with an
artificial median.
The accusation has been made , and I quote, "Rarely has the impact upon
I
land-use and human population distributions received adequate attention."
Of
courses I don ! t know just what measure this Committee had in mind when they
said "Adequate".
Surely , t hey must be aware that the Utah Sta t e University
had been employed to make an impact study on the effect of the Interstate
Highway in American Fork and that this study was designed to serve as a model
to mea sure such impact on the 19 urban areas of similar popula ti on size.
Perhaps they can be excused , because the Road Commission does not seek publicity
through
sensa t ionalism~
for not knowing the Road Commission has spent about a
half million dollars, in cooperation with the local planning agencies of Salt
Lake City and County, Davis County, and Bountiful ' in which economic and social
factors~
in terms of
land-use~
are a major part of this research project , or
that work has already been initiated to carry this same field of research into
North Davis and Weber Count i es and is planned for the Utah County area o
The
total area under study inc l ud es approximately 75 per cent of the population of
this State.
Also, our work program for the period July
l ~
through 1962
initiates the beginning phase of a St ate -wide Transportation Study in the
�(
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economic--including land-use--and social factors with relation to the total network of highways without reference to administrative system, to be coupled with
a fiscal study to be related to over-all highway needs.
Perhaps it is redundant to comment again about the accusation that "the
Highway Department has in effect become the land-use planning
without personnel competent in the many
~sp~cts
of land-use."
agency~
generally
I again wish to
emphasize that land-use planning is not a responsibility of the State Highway
Department, but at the present time is the prerogative of the local governmental
agencies; I also wish to emphasize again that the study of land-use, both
existing and planned, is a part of the State Highway Department's field of
investigation, and that advice and cooperati'on of the local planning agencies
are sought not only informally but py fQ~mal contracts in many instances.
In the field of highway literature reports replete ,with research studies
and information in this field are constantly being used ' as reference material
by the Highway Department, and are also available for the information and
instruction of your Committee o
I am including a bibliography of some of the
more recent and more important reports in this field.
Many of the criticisms containeq in the Committee's report are so
vague and of such a general nature that they hardly warrant item by item
attention.
Such statements as "these frequently have an adverse effect,1t
"this may spread," "many engineers," (highway engineers?)
are examples of
what I have in mind.
Basically, I believe that our problem is one of misunderstanding rather
than disagreement.
Without question, all of the items ,mentioned in your
Committee's report merit consideration, but in the final analysis, the
cost ~
in terms of highway user ,'s dollars, of providing all of the remedies recommended
by your Committee must be evaluated in terms of the existing and potential
highway needs, and economic and social loss to society resulting from long
�(
(
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delay in providing needed highway construction compared to the loss which may
result by not complying with recommendations in your special and limited field
of interesto
The Highway Department is the custodian for the highway user's
tax dollars to the extent that the Legislature has seen fit to make this
source of revenue available to it, and its primary responsibility is c learly
defined in the State Code.
In the final ' analysis, what your Commit t ee advocates
is the diversion of the highway user's tax dollar to non-highway use and the
assurance that such diversion will take place by the creation of a dictatorial
group separate and distinct from the highway engineering field with powers to
arbitrarily dictate and enforce such diversion o
At the same t ime we recognize
the needs" and desires of the segments of socie ty which may be benefit ted or
adversely affec t e d by highway improvements and construc tion.
However ~
we
firmly believe that t he proc edures are already established for hearing and
considering the objections ,a nd recommendations of these groups, bu t we still
maintain that we have
dec isions
that~
right. in the field of highway matters t o make those
th~
in ou r op i nion 9 and as directed by St ate
legislatiori ~
be~ t
serve the public good .
nt
I would like to make an addi tional comme_ or two to reply to each one
of the four recommenda t ion s of y pur Committee:
(1 )
We are already making use of the special t alen t s of Utah ' s universi-
ties, and we
Highway
believe ~
Departmen t~
c onsidering the amount of money available to the Sta t e
t ha t we have an exc ellent research program; for reasons of
flexibili t y an over - all highway research program should r ema.in under t he
jurisdiction of the St a t e Highway Depar t ment o
(2 )
There is
alrea~y
Federal and
S t at~ legislatioh~
requiring coordin =
,
ation of certain agencies.
Perhaps more is
needed ~
bu t in any event , there
must be some authority resp onsible for making final decisions o
I can ' t ~elp
�(
- 8 -
but wonder how the Board of Regents and the University administrators would
react to a suggestion that all of their decisions would be subject to review
and confirmation including the final decision for funding and expenditure of
the University's educational dollars by self-selected groups with little
knowledge of academic problems and procedures who might have some interes t
in the research and graduates.
(3)
We believe that the authority to review and reject highway design
proposals can best be accomplished under the presently established Road
Commission and Highway Department, just as we believe that the ' aims of the
College of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management of the Utah St ate University
can best be served by personnel who have the education, training, and experience
in this specialized field
(4)
o
Legislative recognition of this recommendation is the prerogative
of the duly elected representatives of the people, but if such legislation
were enacted, would be the responsibility of the. State Highway -Department.
�(
BIBLIOGRAPHY
1 0 Arizona Highway Department, "Economic Impact o'f the Proposed Interstate
Program in the Phoenix Area, 1957.
2 0 Better Roads, "Planning Is Essential for Orderly Development, July 1961, pp . 28 .
3.
California Highways and Public Works, "Planning" Volumn 39, November-December,
1960, Numbers 11 and 12, page 40 .
4.
Colorado Department of Highways, "Economic · Impact Study '1, Planning and
Research Division, October 1958 .
5 0 Harrison, ·J oseph ·W. ) Highway Ee01:lOmi:-sc-, ·J'ffieon-omi-c · E-ff·eets ef-:. · Limi ted Aecess
Highway and By-pass, University of Virginia, 1956 .
6.
Highway Research Board, Special Report No . ·28, "Economic Impact of Highway
Improvement, Publication 541 . 1957 - :S~ssion I - The impact of Highway
Improvement on Land Val, es . .- Session II - Impac t of ..Highway Improvement
u
on Land Use .
7*
Highway Research Boa17d, I'Fo.r e.castin;g. f<;lr
7 6,6 .
8.
Highway Research Board, "Highway and Economic · Development", Bulletin 227,
~ublication 687, 1959 ~
.Hi$hw~ys",
Bulletin 257, Publication
9 0 Highway Research Board, "Highway Needs .a nd Programming Priori tie- ,
s"
Bulletin 249, Publication 7.38, t960 .
10 .
Highway Research Board, Highway Needs StlJdy, 1957, Bulletin No . 158,
Publication 497 .
11.
Highway Research_~oard, "HigJ::lway Needs ' StudieS. - 1958", Bulletin No . 194
Publication 620 . _
12 .
Highway Research Board,
13
Highway Rese a rch Board, "Highway Planning", Bulletin No . 31, 1950 0
;
"H~.ghway
Planning II , Bulletin No . 17 , 1948 .
I
0
1·4 .
Highway Research Board, "Highway Planning and Urban Development", Bulletin
64, Publication 249 0
15 .
Levin, David R, "The Highway Interchange and Its Adjacent Land Use",
1960 Proceedings, Institute · of Traffic Engineers, Department No . 6, pp . 232 .
l6 ~
Lovoca, Phyllis, "New Roads Proving An Economic Boon", Highwa:r Highlights,
November-December 1960, page ; i2 '~
17 0 Highway Research Board, "Roadside Development - 1957", Publication 496 .
18 .
Highway Research Board, "Roadside Development", Bibliography No . 26,
Annotated, 1960 .
�I
I
(
19.
Highway Research Board, "Some Economic · Effects of Highway Improvement ft ,
Bulletin 67, Publication 256, 1953.
20.
Highway Research Board, "Some Evaluations of Highway Improvement Impacts",
Bulletin No. 268, Publication 801.
21.
Stanhayen, William H., "Highway Interchanges and Land Use Controls",
Highway and Land Administration, Chief Laws, Research Project.
22.
Stewart, C. L., "Farm Land Values as Affected by ' Road Type and Distance",
Journal of Farm Economics, 1936, page 724 to 735.
23.
Taylor, Maurice C., "The Beneficiaries of Highways and Their Responsibility "
Associate Professor, Agricultural Experimental Experiment State, Montana
State College, Bozeman, Montana.
24.
Taylor, Maurice C., and Infanger, Carl ton A., "Benefi ts From Highway
Development - User and Non-uset!', Department of Agricul ture and Economics
and Rural Sociology, Montana State College, Bozeman, Montana.
25.
Zettel, Richard M., "Effect of Limited Access Highway on Property and
Business Values", Institute .of Transportation and Traffic Engineering,
University of California, 1953.
This bibliography represents only a very minor portion of the research projects and studies that have been conducted in this field that are available for
reference.
�
Text
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Title
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What should we buy with the highway user's dollar?
Description
An account of the resource
Essay detailing the importance of road building. Includes bibliography.
Contributor
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Chase, Daryl
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roads Improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Essays
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1960-1969
1970-1979
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 37.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/48c2d3ff0b4bc974e359d0c041d99fe6.pdf
f2be8d23559be5f5901d72a334c16183
PDF Text
Text
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
FOREST SERVICE
INTERMOUNTAIN
REGION
ADDR E SS REPLY TO
REGIONAL FORESTER
FOREST SERVICE BUILDIN G
AND REFER TO
OGDEN, UTAH
November 28, 1961
Whitney Floyd, Dean
College of Forest, Range and
Wildlife Management
Utah State University
Logan, Utah
J
0
Dear Whit:
Because of your interest in the protection of the multiple resources of the
national forests, we are enclosing a position statement and clipsheet of
news items and editorial comment that we believe will be of interest to you.
The Logan Canyon Highway construction project in Utah raises an important
and basic issue that involves these resources on the Cache National Forest.
Logan Canyon is known throughout America as a major scenic attraction. The
beauty of Logan River and the fine trout fishing and recreation it provides
have similar renown.
The Forest Service recognizes the significant contribution to resource
protection that the highway engineers have made through modification of the
original design for this project . However, after very careful study by
qualified individuals representing a number of different profeSSions, we
have determined that additional changes are needed to meet minimum requirements for protection of scenic and fisheries valueso The decision has
therefore been made to insist that these modifications be incorporated in
the highway design as a condition for the issuance of a permit for highway
construction through these national forest lands.
Our purpose in furnishing this information to you is to insure full recognition of the basic issues at stake in this case. Among public land managers
and conservationists throughout the country there is growing awareness of the
adverse resource and scenic impacts of highway construction. Especially is
this the case when the approach has typically reflected a philosophy of single
rather than multiple use. The basic conflict is brought to focus in Logan
Canyon.
�Whether the threat be from road construction, as in this case, excessive
livestock use, big game numbers beyond the capacity of the range to support,
or fire, the end result is the same. Deterioration of the vegetation, loss
of soil and destruction of mountain streams is too great a price to pay.
Under a sound multiple-use approach the resources of Logan Canyon can be
protected.
The Logan Canyon Highway should be improved to meet present day traffic
requirements on this section of the Federal aid primary system in Utah.
(Fbr this project the proportionate cost share is 18% Federal and 22% State
funds.) Improvement, however, cannot be allowed to result in resource impacts
that can reasonably be avoided. An informed public, alert to the need for
protection of the basic resources of public lands, will not allow this to
happen - - - in Logan Canyon, or elsewhere in America.
Sincerely yours,
E. M. BACON
Assistant Regional Fbrester
Division of Information
and Education
-2-
�
Text
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Title
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Correspondence from Bill Bacon to J. Whitney Floyd, November 28, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from Bill Bacon to J. Whitney Floyd, November 28, 1961 about the Logan Canyon Highway.
Creator
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Bacon, E. M.
Contributor
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Floyd, J. Whitney
Subject
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
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Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 42.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/333431b145713a118e251437bf624e46.pdf
c2b98e11075f7615db0446dbe27a9e5b
PDF Text
Text
November 25, 1961
OPEN LETTER TO :
Mr. C. Taylor Burton , Director, Utah State De pt. of Highways
Mr. Harold S. Crane, Direct or, Utah State Dept . of Fish and Game
Mr. Floyd Iverson, Regional Fore 3ter, U. • Forest Service
f~r. Gran t E. Meyers, Division Engineer, Bureau of Public Roads
The College of Forest , Range and W
ildlife Management of Utah State
University recently issued a statement on Road Construction and Resource
Use. The statement has been closely associated with the road controversy
in Logan Canyon. As a consequence , the committee responsible for its
preparation has been asked by the Cache Chamber of Commerce to intercede
in an effort to bring an end to an apparent impasse among the agencies
involved.
The statement and all previous actions of the committee have dealt
with principles of broad application - - Lagan Canyon and elsewhere_ The
Lagan Canyon controversy existed long before the statement was issued.
The committee assumes full responsibility for proposing an d supporting
principles of good land use. It cannot, however , involve itself in administrative decisions nor assume responsibility for those decisions
Obviously , the road in Logan Canyon should be completed. W
hether
it is completed, and the nature of construction is the responsibility of
the agencies involved . Completion" satisfactory to all concerned, would
be of credit to those agencies and of benefit to the greatest number of
Utah ' s citizens
We feel the only way we can intercede is to express the hope that
the agencies legally charged with responSibility in these matters will
find a solution -- a satisfactory design ., adequate finanCing, with minimum
damage to the natural resourc es affected
The Committee :
Jack H. Berryman , Chairman
J. Whitney Floyd
Arthur D. Smith
John M Newhold
.
Frank W Kearns
.
cc - Gov. Geo . D. Clyde
w J~y Gar rett, Chacha Chamber of Commerce
.
Pres . Daryl Chase
For the Committee
Very truly yours~
J. Whitney Floyd , Dean
�
Text
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Title
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Open Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd, November 25, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Open letter to C. Taylor Burton, Harold S. Crane, Floyd Iverson, and Grant Meyers referencing the College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management of Utah State University and the Road Construction and Resources Use statement.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Floyd, J. Whitney
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Burton, C. Taylor
Iverson, Floyd
Crane, Harold S.
Meyers, Grant E.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Highway 89
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 39.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/778d15b7aa9021ca4c601277dac7c292.pdf
f28b5907eb631bad05272e091ce8e7e0
PDF Text
Text
,.
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�ov. 7, 19 1
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vi
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by AU9u
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Text
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Title
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Memorandum from Jack Berryman to Files, November 7, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from Jack Berryman to Files on November 7, 1961 regarding the position of the Forest Service and the College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management on the road construction and resource use in Logan Canyon.
Creator
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Berryman, Jack H.
Contributor
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Chase, Daryl
Floyd, J. Whitney
Merrill, M. R.
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Administrative records
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 34.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/59e438adfc6ab890d16609206f3dbf86.pdf
2f9d6d4bb6bd30eb77dfcc20c2c62a1d
PDF Text
Text
COOPERATIVE EXTENSION WORK
IN
AGRICULTURE AND HOME ECONOMICS
STATE OF UTAH
UTAH STATE U N IVERSITY
AND
U . S. DEP R f[MI!JN tD
at
AGNII:[)J LtrLl$E
EXTENSION SERVICE
LOGAN. UTAH
COOPERATING
To : President Daryl Chase
From : Jack H. Berryman
Date: September 1, 1961 .
Subject: Logan Canyon Road Construction.
I have the copy of Mr. Burton ts letter to you concerning the
Logan Canyon roadwork .
In the absence of Dean Floyd , I shall take the liberty of providing
you with the background information and suggestions on a reply.
For the past two years the College has been very interested in
the roadwork and named a committee to study the Logan Canyon road
and also prepared a statement on the impact of highway planning and
construction on resource use . I have served as Chairman of this
committee and have represented the College before the Cache Chamber
of Commerce and at highway planning meetings on several occ8sions ,
including the June 27 discussions mentioned by Mr. Burton.
We have expressed our position through letters from Dean Floyd
t o Regional Forester Floyd I verson and Mr . Burton , copies of which
are attached. Attached also is a dr af t of our proposed College
statement which has now been reviewed twice by the sta f f and is in
the process of final editing.
We have consistently taken this position : obviously roads and
road 1mprovements are necessary but planning shotild take into account
the impact upon al l resources and , 1n the case of Lagan Canyon, the
very important scenic , recreational and f ishery resources. W have
e
attempted to develop the prinCiple that cost of protecting these
resources should be a normal cost of road building . In view of Mr .
Burton's letter , we have been partially successf ul . To us the issue
I n Logan Canyon goes far beyond this immediate area.
I think a reply to Mr . Burton would be appropriate . I think ,
however, we must be cautious 1n endorsing the plan 8S revised
because the Forest Service has not yet issued a special use permit
and an endorsement by us would weaken their position as well as that
of the Fish and Game Department . Fu r ther, we have confined ourselves
to principle without reference to the specifics of engineering design .
With this in mind , may I suggest something along the following lines:
Thank you for your let t er commenting on the present
studies of the highway pl anning in Logan Canyon and also for
conSidering the philosophy of this University in designing the
highway .
�- 2 -
President Daryl Chase
September 1 , 1961
Obviously the decisions concerning the specifics of
acceptable design are the responsibility of the agencies
involved, namely your
the Fish and Game Dep artment ,
and the U. S . Forest Service. Our concern has been with the
principle--that highway planning must consider the impact upon
all other resources and that the cost of protecting these
resources should be a normal cost of highway construction.
We recognize that the deSign for the second phase of the
road has been modified to a considerable extent and th a t costs
ha ve been increased substantially _ To us this represents
progress in the establishment of an important principle that
goes beyond Logan River. Your cooperation is much appreciated
Q
I would apprec iate the opportunity of discussing this matter with
you .
JH8:jwt
c . c. Dean J . Whitney Floyd
�
Text
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Correspondence from Jack H. Berryman to Daryl Chase, September 1, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from Jack H. Berryman to President Daryl Chase, September 1, 1961 about Logan Canyon Road Construction.
Creator
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Berryman, Jack
Contributor
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Chase, Daryl
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 31.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/1e45fb9dc88ea0077d539d0081843325.pdf
3dfc009eba6858bd560db74d9e466d3e
PDF Text
Text
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Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1732">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1732</a>
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Title
A name given to the resource
Memorandum from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, November 14, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from J. Whitney Floyd to President Daryl Chase on November 14, 1961 about a meeting with Governor Clyde, November 13, 1961.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Floyd, J. Whitney
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chase, Daryl
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Administrative records
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
Is Part Of
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
Format
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application/pdf
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 35.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/2e0ec822801706dae8d62828cab8e29d.pdf
b9990a0fd0ec3ebd33a2117ea2bc21bb
PDF Text
Text
A... ITANT DIU CTO
D•• (TO. 0' .. I....A"
101f," W. GRiFf iN
C. TAYLOR IURTON
RULON J . BALLA RD
J . [OWARO JOHN TO
ITATt O"ICI IUILe •••
Utah State Department of Highways
Salt Lake City 14, Utah
1
... 'relideaC
Utah ItAte UGiv.rli
LoI_, Utah
Ilr.
IUBJICI:
P-02l-1()
Lo an Can on
Dear Kr. Cba.e:
laference il
to our
ti I ift Lolan, Utah. OIl J
27,
alre d to conllder certain .edificationl in t
1961, at wbich tl
,lao lubaitted at thi.
etifta. After car ful conlideratl
of t
, .. 11 I 1 • in t
four-1
•• e ion of hi h
•
ha
reduc d t
of t .e lan a by Itartia the u -hill pa •• ing lane at Station
464 aDd
it at tation 490.
ar Itartinl t
paillna 1
at Itation
t r.tnatin it at 477+81, Whic 1••
coalidera 1. ductioD ia total le th of pa.l1al lane ••
Itudied the 'i.h
G
Ca..d •• i '. propo.ed .edificatlOil of t
lUah y
n Itation
and 5 5. Ihould _ move t
lUSh--, 10 feet north 1 to t
1011d roc , it will re.ult 1n a additioaal
7,23' cublc yardl of rock to be bl.lted out and hau1.d a di.tance of
f1ft 1I11el
t
ri t
fork c YOD.
r .tl_ted COlt for the
exca.at1oe of ,011d rock 1. t1.50 per cublc yard,
t
e.ti. .ted COlt
f
It · t
rock 1. 150 a ya 1I11at or a to 1 of 90e
r cubic 7ard
..tlna a total of t2.50 per C ic yard, or • total ollar COlt of f18,095.
ftU. adctlti al re1ocatiOil of t
hil., into .o11d rock vill relult ia
a ut nduetion of chamal eDCr
nt by 185 e.t.
After revlev11l1 the ady_t •• lain d,
185 f •• t 1•• 1
of C
1 eacroac
at
c will . 1&1 d at a total co.t of
au of , b1le loed'
t
load
•• lOD do ot
llev thi. 1 •
... le Ju,tlficatloa for t
addlti a1 co.t invo1 d.
I
a1.0 1 ., l •• ted
effact t t.ovi
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Text
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Title
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Correspondence from C. Taylor Burton to Daryl Chase, July 12, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from C. Taylor Burton, Director of Highways, to Daryl Chase, Utah State University, on July 12, 1961, about passing lanes on highway and the Fish and Game Commission's proposed modification of the highway between Station 565 and 595.
Creator
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Burton, C. Taylor
Contributor
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Chase, Daryl
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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application/pdf
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 32.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/561ec586d6aad58a38b2c9c18186de96.pdf
bbd0778cd7e5b1a11fdf409fa28bf7a1
PDF Text
Text
UTAH STATE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS
1
1
,"f
•
�UTAH STATE DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS
--
I
�
Text
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Title
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Correspondence from C. Taylor Burton to Daryl Chase, November 20, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from C. Taylor Burton to Daryl Chase, November 20, 1961 about highway construction and the Committee report.
Creator
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Burton, C. Taylor
Contributor
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Chase, Daryl
Subject
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Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Correspondence
Administrative records
Spatial Coverage
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 36.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/c43414c5a9fa57f484e723879feb97ef.pdf
479ccc20cf4acf4b50e1675aa3be56e3
PDF Text
Text
August 8 , 1961
M E M 0 RAN 0 U M
To: Dean D. F. Peterson
From : Dean J . Whitney Floyd
Subject: College Statement on Road Construction
and Resource Use
Attached 1s a manuscript which 1s self-explanatory .
It is now being reviewed bV our entire staff .
rollowing
staff review , we will make a decision on printing and
distribution .
Meanwhile I would appreciate any comments
you wish to make.
jwt
�
Text
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1728">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1728</a>
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Memorandum from J. Whitney Floyd to D. F. Peterson, August 8, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from Dean J. Whitney Floyd to Dean D. F. Peterson, August 8, 1961 about reviewing a manuscript.
Creator
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Floyd, J. Whitney
Contributor
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Peterson, D. F.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
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Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 25.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/3ff189f3a2085809e47bf1295f658de4.pdf
6bbc47dd805ba58271652c916b1287e9
PDF Text
Text
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Pr ••i4
CQIMIo"".
Daryl
2, 19 1
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Text
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Title
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, June 22, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd, College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management, to President Daryl Chase, June 22, 1961 referencing the Director of Highways.
Creator
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Floyd, J. Whitney
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chase, Daryl
Subject
The topic of the resource
Traffic engineering
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 26.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/a9223971dd6ac5ea2402d09145aca7b4.pdf
4ac6542617bf576c971131c12ab149d4
PDF Text
Text
('
(
UTAH
STATE
UNIVERSITY
DARYL CHASE, PRESIDENT
LOGAN,
UTAH
COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE
August 10, 1961
W. H. BENNETT , DEAN
J. Whitney Floyd, Dean
College of Forest, Range and Wildlife Management
Campus
Dear Dean Floyd:
I have read the statement on Road Construction and Resource Use prepared
by your College Committee on Road Construction with considerable interest.
This statement is well prepared and shows the results of considerable
thought and effort. I commend the committee members for the thorough job
that has been done.
I have some reservations about recommendation five on page 12 which recommends that local community organizations be developed to consider all
matters relating to resource use. In my opinion we are already overorganized and a lot of time is spent in trying to coordinate things, but
coordination might be taken care of as a matter of course if things were
on a simpler basis. I think we should work through the existing organizations and endeavor to create a greater awareness and consciousness of
the importance of resource use.
I also feel that recommendation number five is too broad and could lead to
organizations giving consideration to many diverse and unrelated aspects
of resource use. Perhaps the wording of recommendation five could be .
modified to mention specific things in keeping with the title and content
of the statement.
Once again I desire to commend the committee for the thorough, excellent
job that has been done. It certainly points out problems and conditions
that are important enough to warrant the best planning that can be done.
It is written in such a way that I think very few people could take
exception to any part of it.
Very truly yours,
Dean
WHB/cm
p.
s.
The word "stronger" in the second sentence of the second paragraph
(first complete paragraph) seems to be out of place. I am wondering
if the word should be "weaker" rather than "stronger."
�
Text
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1724">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1724</a>
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Correspondence from W. H. Bennett to J. Whitney Floyd, August 10, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from W. H. Bennett to J. Whitney Floyd, August 10, 1961discussing the Road Construction and Resource Use statement prepared by the College Committee.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bennett, W. H.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Floyd, J. Whitney
Subject
The topic of the resource
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Traffic engineering
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 24.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/a934d3bad6364950f7331bc78480c392.pdf
871fdea5b3f4ccc480593ce8fcc87ae3
PDF Text
Text
(
UTAH
STATE
EXTENSION
UNIVERSITY
SERVICE
IN COOPERATION WITH COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
AND U . S. D EPA RT MEN T 0 FAG RIC U LT U R E
LO GAN, U TA H
September 26, 1961
Dean J. Whitney Floyd
Campus
Dear Dean Floyd:
I enjoyed reading the fourth rought draft of the
statement on Road Construction and Resource Use, prepared
by the faculty of the College of Forest, Range and wildlife
Management, which you were kind enough to send to me. This
statement is well written. It contains some very interesting points which are usually overlooked by the common
ordinary citizen.
I donUt believe I have any suggestions for improving
this manuscript.
VlV trUl'A~
~
"'"~
Carl Frischknecht, Director
Extension Services
Utah State University
CF:lm
�
Text
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1721">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1721</a>
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1547336671
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Title
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Correspondence from Carl Frischknecht to J. Whitney Floyd, September 26, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from Carl Frischknecht to J. Whitney Floyd, September 26, 1961. Utah State University.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Frischknecht, Carl
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Floyd, J. Whitney
Subject
The topic of the resource
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Traffic engineering
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
Format
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 23.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/2406b956e4acf7930b50aae2e5988367.pdf
c675028977bd86e95d9655ec5c9ff0e7
PDF Text
Text
TO:~~ _--#__ ~
~
_ __
This material is being forwarded to you by
President Chase, on the assumption that it
may be of inter ost to you.
�December il, 1961
Dr. Daryl Olase, President
Utah State University
Losan,
Utah
Dear Dr. Chase:
We would like to g1 y, our strollS endors ment to the h1ghv~ construction
report issued by the College ot Forest, Range and Wild11fe Management.
Perhaps the State Road Commission teels that they are doing an excellent
Job, but those who do not like to see the ruthless detacement ot torest
and landscape teel otherwise. Wh never one ~vocates a vise conservation
principle in Utah, it i8 bound to be attacked by a tev highly vocal
anti-conservationists. As an institution of higher learning USU baa
v1aely perm1 tted the publication of unbiased studies such as this, in
the tull tra.dl tion of academic treedan. In addition, these conservation
studies are appreciated by a great number of state citizens, perhaps a
-Jority, who, 11ke ourselves, rarely have time to otter congratulations
tor a job well done.
Sincerely yours,
J. Calvin Gl44ins-, President
W
~t
�
Text
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1720">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1720</a>
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322770230
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Title
A name given to the resource
Correspondence from J. Calvin Giddings to Daryl Chase, December 11, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from J. Calvin Giddings of the Wasatch Mountain Club to Daryl Chase, Utah State University President, and forwarded to Dean Floyd.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Giddings, J. Calvin
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chase, Daryl
Floyd, Dean
Subject
The topic of the resource
Utah State University
Roads--Design and construction
Roadside Improvement--Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
Is Part Of
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
Format
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 10.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/0e024c8e49d722d11bc11523add4f232.pdf
e001e7dc616baab35a70d06a09846e7a
PDF Text
Text
Collea.guE~S
to all 0
it
1
~lD.oe]:-e.ly •
err111
1
�
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1714">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/highway89/id/1714</a>
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Title
A name given to the resource
Correspondence from M.R. Merrill, November 6, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence from M.R. Merrill, November 6, 1961to his colleagues.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Merrill, M.R.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Berryman, Jack H.
Floyd, J. Whitney
Smith, Arthur D.
Neuhold, John M.
Kearns, Frank W.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Correspondence
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1960-1969
20th century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Special Collections and Archives, phone (435) 797-2663.
Is Part Of
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Highway 89 Digital Collections
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Text
Format
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 16.pdf
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/6a4c06c81888f47595bce09ae7a7cff8.pdf
603191ed9d0bb8c5106ffa7f74f87411
PDF Text
Text
UTAH
STATE
UNIVERSITY
DARYL CHASE, PRESIDENT
LOGAN ,
UTAH
COLLEGE OF FOREST, RANGE , AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT
March 15, 1962.
J . WHI TNEY FLOYD, DEAN
Frank S . Bunker ,
Amb er ,
WaShington .
Dear Sir:
Attached is a copy of "Road Construction and
Resource Use" which I hope you will find of
interest . It is a joint contribution of this College
and the Extension Services aimed at improving land
use planning , specifically as it relates to highway
construction ..
-,It is our hope that the publication will throw
light on one aspect of the many complexities of
highway planning and res ource use .
~~VJ. YOJ~ ~
'
q~ .
Whitney loyd , D an
College of orest , ange
and W
ildlife Management
jwt
Enc .
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to Frank S. Bunker, March 15, 1962
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd, Dean College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management, to Frank S. Bunker, March 15, 1962.
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Floyd, J. Whitney
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Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Design and construction
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
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United States
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1960-1969
20th century
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eng
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 2.pdf
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http://highway89.org/files/original/86f4cd084dfe4805d036788f81dce02d.pdf
a2023b8d1a07c22ba43379b41a01710e
PDF Text
Text
November 3, 1961
Dr. Daryl Chase, President
utah st'ate University
Campus
De a r President Chase:
Following our discussion we have released draft copies
of the statement on roa d construction and resource use to the
Utah state Department of Fish and Ga me , state De partment of
Highways , U. s.- ~orest Service., and U. S. Bureau of Public
Roads. These ag~ncies have expressed an interest in receiving
the statement a t an early date. We are also transmi t ting a
copy to Governor Clyde. A copy of the letter to him is attached.
We -'are releasing copies to the P r ess today , coordina ting
our efforts with Mr. Allred. We are also meeting with Dr .
Frischknecht and hope to have the statement in published form
and ready for general distribution in the near future.
Sincerely yours ,
J. Whitney Floyd, Dean
College of Forest, Ra nge,
and Wildlife Management
JHB:ep
cc: Dr. M. R. Merrill
Dr. Ca e l Frischknecht
Attachment.
�
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, November 3, 1961
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd, College of Forest, Range, and Wildlife Management, to Daryl Chase, Utah State University, on November 3, 1961.
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Floyd, J. Whitney
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Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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Cache County (Utah)
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1960-1969
20th century
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 18.pdf
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http://highway89.org/files/original/608809bc993b149fcc450dc0dd1f98f9.pdf
b2084c30c5eeb741ce495ebb4c9e0caa
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�
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to George Dewey Clyde, November 3, 1961
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Correspondence from J. Whitney Floyd to George Dewey Clyde, November 3, 1961
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Floyd, J. Whitney
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Clyde, George Dewey
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Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1960-1969
20th century
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eng
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Memorandum from J. Whitney Floyd to Daryl Chase, October 25, 1961
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Memorandum from J. Whitney Floyd, Dean, to President Daryl Chase, October 25, 1961
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Floyd, J. Whitney
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Chase, Daryl
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Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Traffic engineering
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
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20th century
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, 14.7.17 Box 8, College of Natural Resources, Dean's Files
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Text
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Memorandum from Jack H. Berryman, November 7, 1961
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum from Jack H. Berryman to files, November 7, 1961, about the College of Forest Range and Wildlife Management.
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Roadside improvement--Utah--Logan Canyon
Logan Canyon (Utah)
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Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
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1960-1969
20th century
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14717Bx8Fd20_Item 15.pdf
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Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Bill Petersen
Place of Interview: Mr. Peterson’s home
Date of Interview: 14 April 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Rebecca Smith
Rebecca Smith
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Chelsea Amdal
Randy Williams (2/23/09; July 2011), Bill Peterson (3/09)
Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Peterson talks about growing up in Hyrum, Utah; his
father’s ranching and farming operations; working with his families’ sheep ranching operation in
Cache National Forest and in Box Elder County. He talks about getting out of the sheep business
due to a mysterious event that killed over 300 sheep in the mid 1950s that also caused many of
the sheep to become sterile. After this, the family got out of the sheep ranching business. He
also talks his education at Utah State University and University of Utah and going into the real
estate business in Bear Lake. He also talks about local land conservation issues.
Reference:
BP = Bill Petersen
RS = Rebecca Smith (Interviewer; USU graduate student)
MP=Mary Peterson
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets.
At the end of the transcript is information on “Willard Petersen and Sheep Creek Cove” supplied
by Bill Petersen.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
RS:
OK Bill, I would like to start by asking what your full name is.
BP:
My name is Willard Reed Petersen.
RS:
When and where were you born?
Land
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�BP:
I was born in Logan, 11/22/1926
RS:
How long have you lived here? Have you lived here this whole time?
BP:
I lived in Hyrum ‘til about 20 years ago.
RS:
Ok, so you were born in Logan.
BP:
I lived in Hyrum ‘til I was . . . no it was longer than that I guess. I lived in Hyrum for say
forty years and balanced a life here, in Bear Lake. 30 years here.
RS:
What was your earliest memory of Logan Canyon?
BP:
My earliest memory of Logan Canyon was driving up in the canyon with my father when
I was probably eight to ten years old, delivering supplies to the sheep, which were raised
in Logan Canyon. We had four permits on the Cache National Forrest. One in Dip
Hollow, one in Boulder Mountain and one in Mount Logan, and one Pete’s Hollow.
RS:
In Pete’s Hollow? Ok. What was your father’s name?
BP:
Willard Petersen. They called me Bill and him Willard.
RS:
And so you grew up, you say, in Hyrum? And you spent some of that time going up into
the canyon with your father?
BP:
Oh a lot. Yeah we would go up Logan Canyon; a lot in Blacksmith Fork too. We had a
private range up Blacksmith Fork Canyon and then we’d drive, we’d range the sheep
from Blacksmith Fork Canyon over, drive them over into Logan Canyon for high summer
mountain grazing.
RS:
I’m not really familiar with a lot of the canyons, so I’m trying to figure out where your
father’s land might have been. You don’t happen to have a map of that area do you?
BP:
Oh yeah I’ve got them.
RS:
Ok let me pause this and maybe we could look at a map. Do you have them really
accessible? Or we could do it afterwards.
BP:
Let’s do it afterwards.
RS:
Ok
BP:
But anyway, the private range that we would go up to in the spring and early summer was
south of the Hardware Ranch. And we would be there in the springtime and out in the
desert or out on the Spring Range in Box Elder County. And we would truck the sheep,
or trail them. Earlier we would trail them and later we would truck them, from Box Elder
Land
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�County into Cache County and up onto the forest range. And the sheep from Rattlesnake
Mountain, Box Elder County would either go to private range or directly to the forest
depending on the time of the year or what’s going on.
And our private range was 7 miles south of the Hardware Ranch. This is where it started
and we extended through another 7 to 10 miles along the Aunt Valley road. And then in
the first of July when the forest permits became active and we could go to the forest, we
would trail the sheep from our private range there over to the Hardware Ranch, stopped at
the Hardware, Curtis Creek, Rock Creek and then Left Hand Fork; and, then into our
different permits.
RS:
What was that like growing up helping your father?
BP:
What was it like what?
RS:
What was it like to help your father with the sheep when you were growing up?
BP:
It was just like a summer or year round vacation being with the sheep. I loved being in
the mountains or in the desert.
RS:
Were there different aspects that you liked more than others?
BP:
Oh, I liked actually being out herding the sheep in the summer time, but we didn’t get
much opportunity because there was farm work to do. We had a farm that helped support
feed the sheep. And we would raise hay and alfalfa and grains for the sheep and the
horses and later on cattle that we had.
RS:
Was that in Hyrum?
BP:
That was in Hyrum, our base in the summer. Our base in the fall and early spring before
we got up here was in Hansel Valley out in Box Elder County. We had land with sheds
and a cabin, we had kind of a head quarters there.
Then in the winter time we went clear out to Nevada to Ely: between Ely and Wendover.
Trailed our sheep out to there, we had a permit out there and then we had one in Utah,
close to Snowville, towards the Utah Nevada Idaho border, out in that area.
RS:
What were your families’ land use traditions? Were there any annual or periodic events
that you did?
BP:
I still don’t get the question… [Trail the sheep from summer to winter range; trail back in
the spring.]
RS:
Are there things that you or your family did, or continue to do today on an annual basis,
or like special events.
Land
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�BP:
Yeah, we go up to the forest. Forest permits would open up on the first of July. So that
was an event that we would keep in mind and would plan our activities so that we go to
the forest on the first of July. We came off; our permits would expire about the 15th of
September, if I remember right. And we would have to be off the forest, well, the 15th or
the 30th, I can’t remember exactly, but we’d be off of the forest at that time. And go back
over to our private land for, oh ‘til October, just for deer season. We’d try to be out of
Blacksmith Fork Canyon down in the Cache Valley, away from the deer hunting.
Because the deer hunt was quite dangerous up there for the sheep, the hunters would
shoot them. So we’d try to get out of the canyon before the deer season started.
RS:
Ok, so let me just make sure I understand. Your family had a farm in Hyrum. And you
had land in the canyon, where you would allow your sheep to graze. And then during the
time of the year when you could get permits for the forest, then you would trail your
sheep to different forests and let them graze there.
BP:
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] After the summer season we trail the sheep
out of the canyon. We would rent fields (farm ground) down through Wellsville,
Mendon, over to Fielding, Garland, Blue Creek and finally end up on our private range
on Rattlesnake Mountain. After staying on our private ground a short time we would
continue on the BLM trail to our private range on Pilot Mountain. We would stay there
for a short time, and then continue to our winter range. This would take about 45 days.
RS:
Were there other members of your family that took part in this trailing the sheep?
BP:
My father; and I have two brothers and they would occasionally help.
RS:
And what are their names?
BP:
Howard Clark Petersen, he lives in Nibley Utah. He has a dairy farm there. And then
there’s Stanford B. Petersen and he lives in Salt Lake.
RS:
Were they older or younger?
BP:
Younger.
RS:
Can you tell me what your hobbies or recreational pursuits are?
BP:
Oh I love to fish. I used to golf. I always hunted: many outdoor type activities.
I like to watch the Jazz now.
RS:
(hehehehe) How are they doing?
BP:
Good. Just got back; just went down and watched the game night before last, down in
Salt Lake. Just got back yesterday, spent the night down there, it was fun; a good chance
to get away.
Land
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�RS:
Sounds exciting. Can you tell me about your profession? I know you’re retired now, but
what your profession…
BP:
After we had our problem with the sheep and I got out of the sheep business, I did have
an education. I graduated from Utah State University. And I, along with range classes and
stuff I took, political science, and I had a good background in law. [I] went to law school
for two years down at University of Utah. And that gave me a background to where I
could go into the real estate business pretty easy, and I went into the real estate business
and became a real estate partner at a firm here in Logan. And eventually a real estate
broker.
RS:
How did you decide to go to school at Utah State University?
BP:
Well, my mother always believed in education. And living in Hyrum, that’s the place to
go.
RS:
How did you get interested, when you enrolled, how did you get interested in range
classes?
BP:
Well, that being, having my father having farms and ranches. I decided that’s the place to
spend part of my time anyways. So I did. I didn’t major in animal husbandry or range
management, but I took enough I could have minored in range management. Had a
number of classes from Dr. Wayne Cook; [he] was very good. And he had a graduate
assistant and they did range work out on our—some of our BLM ground permits in Box
Elder County. And I got to know them quite well. And I enjoyed their company and
enjoyed taking their classes.
RS:
And you were also studying Political Science at that time?
BP:
I majored in political science and minored in economics and business and stuff. I had all
kinds of minors.
RS:
All kinds of interests. So then how did you get interested in real estate?
BP:
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] With the problems we were having at the
sheep ranch, I could see the writing on the wall, that our sheep ranch would not be viable
very long. I could see that it was not going to be economically possible to keep it going.
I started looking around for other employment options. We started selling parcels of land
to cover expenses. One of the gentlemen who handled the sale of our property was real
estate broker Mel Squires. The land he sold for us extended from North of Richmond on
the foothills extending to the Idaho border and up to the forest. I admired the way he did
that. Selling caught my interest and I thought “I think maybe I could do something like
that.” I had a friend who was a real estate broker and I asked him if I could join his firm,
he said yes and that is how I got started in real estate. Some years later I became a
partner in the firm. We later dissolved our partnership. I became a broker and took over
Land
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�an office we had in Bear Lake. It worked out good for both of us. It was an enjoyable
profession.
RS:
Ok, so when you were talking about your profession and you went into real estate, you
said that’s because there was a problem with the sheep, so could you talk about that?
BP:
Well in about, let’s see 1947 or ‘48, I’m not sure about the exact date. But I was in law
school at the time and we were trailing the sheep out to the desert as usual. We were out
just north of Rabbit Springs which is right close to the Nevada boarder. And the sheep
were coming through a pass and my father was going to meet us out there. I had been out
to the head quarters at Hansel Valley, spent the night there, and one of the ranch hands
and I were gonna meet dad. He went from Salt Lake around the south end of the Great
Salt Lake up back. And we went around the north side of the lake. From our Hansel
Valley, anyway we were going to meet out at this Rabbit Springs and count the sheep.
And we got there before day light and we met and had breakfast. The sun started coming
out. We looked out and we saw a bunch of dead sheep. And we had never seen anything
like it before. We couldn’t tell what it was. But we looked at them, tried to figure it out.
There was nothing we could do, they were dead. It was at least 300 of them dead. Their
heads had kind of swollen up and lost some hair around their head. And they looked
terrible. And we could not figure out what it was.
We took 3 or 4 carcasses into Utah State University, who had a poison control center and
the best one in the western United States. And I asked them to tell us what has happened.
And they sent back a report saying it was inconclusive. They couldn’t tell us. After
looking and watching and thinking about the situation 20 years too late, we kind of
figured out that it was radiation from one of the atomic bombs that they were testing in
the Nevada test site. And it killed about close to 300 give or take some. The rest of the
sheep were sterile but we didn’t know it. And they went on their way, went out and we
wintered them out there of course. Some died during the winter and we had a higher than
normal, quite a bit higher than normal death rate that year. But then the spring came; we
had a new lambing shed, best of facilities, and we couldn’t get 50% lamb crop. And
usually you get a hundred and twenty percent in a shed environment. Well, without a
lamb crop and with expenses still coming in, there is no way you can still continue the
sheep business.
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] Finally we had to sell our sheep and get
out of the business. We had no idea what was causing the problem. We had never heard
of radiation at the time and the government never told us about a problem. The fellow we
sold the sheep to went broke, no lambs. He never figured out the problem either. After
all was said and done and much reading the only conclusion I could come up with was
the problem was caused by radiation. The sheep herders who were with the sheep both
died of cancer. My father and I both had cancer. We are pretty sure that it was a radiation
caused incident but there is [no] proof after this much time.
RS:
And you were in law school at that time? So how old do you think you were?
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�BP:
About 23.
MP:
I think Bill was more like in ‘54, because we got married in ‘48 and we lived up on the
hill and Pat was born in 50. I think it was more like in 1954 than in‘48.
BP:
Well I graduated…
MP:
You graduated from Utah State in 1950.
Yeah, you’re right because ‘55 out of, in 1955 I would have graduated from law school,
but before I would have graduated from law school. So it would have to be 1953-4.
RS:
Ok. And so how did that impact your family then, your father?
BP:
Nothing you can do.
RS:
Did he keep using the land for his livelihood?
BP:
Well, we had quite a debt load so we had to unload most of our properties. You have to
pay your bills, and the only way you can do it is to sell the land. One time he was the 2nd
largest tax payer in Box Elder County. Petersen Land & Livestock Inc. was the 2nd largest
and we were one of the larger ones in Cache County. We had about 12,000 acres of
private property in Cache County. And we had about 50,000 acres out in Box Elder
County.
RS:
So going back to talking about your profession, what were some of the major influences
that helped you choose your profession?
BP:
Which one? Ranching or real estate?
RS:
Let’s start with ranching.
BP:
Well, I love to be out in the mountains, and I love to… I didn’t like the farming part of it
as much as the ranching part and we had both. Plus then my brothers took over the farms,
and I took over the sheep. And one of my brothers still has the dairy farm, in Nibley that
was part of the operation. And my other brother, he didn’t like to dry farm, we had dry
farms and he didn’t like that as well, so he sold those and he went into real estate: in
apartments and motels in Salt Lake City. And he’s still doing that, he’s still a real estate
broker. In fact when I retired I transferred my license over to his company and I’m a
licensed real-estate agent now with his company. And we just had to go our merry ways
without the ranching part of the operation.
RS:
You said your brother was working, did you say dry farms or dairy farms?
BP:
Both. One was a dairy farmer, one went into dairy farming. We had farms in out of
Hyrum, well Hyrum was the main area. We had farms in Mount Sterling and down in
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�Hyrum’s north field, which is quite close to Nibley. Actually in Nibley right were the
dairy is now, where his dairy is now. And he still has that; still runs the dairy. He runs
three hundred milk cows out there now.
RS:
And what’s a dry farm?
BP:
The Nibley Farm was irrigated. You have irrigation water out of the Blacksmith Fork
River that irrigated the Nibley area. The dry farms were out in the Mount Sterling area.
And they were like the name implies: dry. They didn’t have any irrigation rights. So they
call those dry farms. And we had dry farms out in Box Elder County; had a number of
them out there. And that’s where my 2nd brother was but he didn’t like the dry farms too
well so we sold those off.
RS:
In terms of the ranching, are there people who were mentors to you in this or who
influenced you in terms of your hobbies/interests?
BP:
My father of course, yeah.
RS:
And how did he do that?
BP:
Well, he took me with him. He took me with him when he’d go up to the canyon to the
different sheep herds to deliver supplies, when he’d go up to count the sheep, when he
would do any of the work up there, I would always ride in the truck with him. And I got
to enjoy the mountains and that’s how I got started.
RS:
So how long was your family running sheep?
BP:
My dad started with his father when he was, he was actually out in the mountains, up on
Mount Logan, herding sheep when he was 12 years old, ALONE.
RS:
Your father was.
BP:
And he’s been with the sheep on and off ever since. And he died at 97. But he, after we
lost all those sheep we got out of the sheep business, it kind of, he was getting old then
anyway. He was 65 or something.
MP:
No he was 60 when we got married. He was in his 80’s.
BP:
Ok, he was probably 75-80 when we…
RS:
when he stopped with the sheep.
BP:
Yeah.
RS:
And what was his father’s name?
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�BP:
Lorenzo.
RS:
Lorenzo Petersen. Ok for the next question, are you a member of a religious community?
If so how does your religious affiliation affect your land use beliefs?
BP:
I’m not a member of a religious community. [I told you we are “Mormons” but we really
are Christians.]
RS:
Ok. Do you think that your religious or spiritual, if you don’t have religious beliefs, do
you think that there’s been some influence whether it’s spiritual or not?
BP:
Some influence on what?
RS:
Some influence on your beliefs about land use?
BP:
No. I believe land use is governed by laws of nature. I believe land use is a science to be
studied and learned.
RS:
Ok, in what areas of Logan Canyon, I know you talked about some of the areas, but
maybe you could talk about other areas where you were also active.
BP:
Well, along with the ranching, I’ve always liked to fish. And I’ve always fished Logan
Canyon and Blacksmith Fork Canyon, both. I’ve fished on the Curtis Creek, Rock Creek
and Left Hand Fork. They were all really good little streams when I started out fishing,
along with Logan Canyon. At the present time, I still like to fish Logan Canyon. I used to
fish the river all the time, but not now I’ve switched to were I can sit down and fish from
a chair in the dam.
RS:
What kind of fish do you get out of there? What kind of fish do you catch?
BP:
Oh we catch trout, either German brown or rainbows. Used to catch a lot of red cutthroats
but they’re kind of a thing of the past.
RS:
I know you said that you like picnic there as well. Were there other places in the canyon
where you would go for that sort of activity?
BP:
Yeah, we still picnic up there. We take our family and go up at least once, twice, three
times a year. Take our great grandkids and go up and have a picnic and fish and every
one of the kids has caught a fish in Logan River, grandkids have caught, great grandkids
have caught a fish in Logan Canyon. And we usually go up to the 2nd Dam and the picnic
areas where it’s real nice and we can fish and picnic and keep the kids occupied there.
[In our younger days we used to go up to Tony’s Grove when we were younger.]
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�Left Hand Fork is really good up Blacksmith Fork too. We used to go up there, some real
nice little place up there, it was quite secluded and a little stream going by there; and real
nice fishing up there.
RS:
How have those places changed over the years? The places that you and your
family—when you were a kid—visited. Are those the same places you visit now or has
that changed?
BP:
The facilities are much better now. Earlier there wasn’t areas for camping and picnic
tables, there wasn’t fire pits that they have now. They are a lot better. The major change I
can see though when I started with dad in the sheep business, they had started permits.
And before it was just open. And they could run sheep wherever they wanted, when my
father started. And that meant that with a lot of sheep on the easy access areas and it was
over grazed. But when they started the permit use, they cut the sheep numbers down and
the forest has recovered a lot. You can see the improvements from when I started, shortly
after they got the permits until we quit. I can see a big difference. Ranchers were required
to take care of their permitted area.
RS:
How has it improved?
BP:
Your vegetation is allowed to grow up and to germinate. And grasses are coming back,
much more prevalent than they were before. Your forbs are in better shape. Just your
whole growth pattern in the whole forest is better. There was better distribution of
livestock
RS:
What’s your favorite place in the canyon?
BP:
Oh I’ve spent time in a lot of them. But probably one of my favorite places is a White
Bedground up on the Mount Logan permit. Right close to there is an area about 15 acres,
10-15 acres, of great big tall beautiful yellow flowers! And I don’t know the name of the
flower, should have checked it out, but they are absolutely beautiful. And they are very
good forage for sheep and elk and deer. But when we first went there, there wasn’t too
many elk. The elk population has increased since. And they may have killed those 15
acres out. I’d like to go up there this summer just to check it out and see. But that was
quite nearer this spring which is just South of the White Bedground. And there was a big
meadow there just of flowers, and that was one of the prettiest sights I have ever seen.
Those flowers were 6 foot tall.
RS:
6 foot tall yellow flowers?
BP:
Yeah, gold, kind of beautiful. In fact we have some same type out on the side of our
house. And they are beautiful in the summer.
RS:
How do you think that you or your activities have contributed to land use changes and
policies in Logan Canyon?
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�BP:
Well, the land use policies are already determined by the foresters. And by following the
rules and regulations that they lay down I think it’s improved the general welfare of the
canyon and are befitting for all of the people, for the recreation users, which I am one,
and for the grazers, for which I was one. I think it’s improved it for everything. I think
they are doing a good job with multiple use.
RS:
How have land use changes impacted you?
BP:
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] I think that without land use changes the
quality of water we have in Logan City and the surrounding area would be much lower,
that we would be more prone to flooding in our canyons and waterways.
RS:
What was the erosion like before?
BP:
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] The stream banks, waterholes and easily
accessible ground was overgrazed. The Forest Service did not have the money to fence,
make roads and fix the springs to get good distribution of the livestock. Most of this
work was done by the ranchers. The fences separated the sheep from cattle. This made it
possible to have accountability for permitee’s. We fixed the springs on our allotments.
We would dig out the spring, lay in perforated pipe, cover it with gravel and hook it to
galvanized pipe. This would lead to ponds or troughs for the livestock and wild life to
drink from. Because of increased water sources, trailing to water was not necessary
erosion of trails and riverbanks was reduced. Vegetation was not trampled down.
RS:
Did you have just sheep up there?
BP:
Yeah. That’s another good thing. Before there was cattle and sheep all mixed up. Now
they have separated the cattle and sheep into different allotments. So everybody’s
responsible for their own individual area. And that makes for better management for both
cattle and sheep. And it separates them from the stream users which is good.
RS:
So what is your overall impression of how land use policies are determined in Logan
Canyon in the Wasatch, Cache, Uinta National Forests?
BP:
Well, they are determined by professionals. Professional foresters whose job it is to make
sure that the forest is used to its best potential. And I think they are doing a pretty good
job of doing it.
RS:
What has been your relationship with forest service personal?
BP:
It’s been very positive all the way through.
RS:
And other land managers in the canyon have you had relationships with other ones?
BP:
[This paragraph was revised by Mr. Peterson] The Soil Conservation Service has always
been very helpful. I had a closer relationship with their representatives than with Forest
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�Service of BLM employees. They worked closely with the ranchers explaining and
showing us the results of different grazing programs.
RS:
How has land use policy influenced change over the past 50 years?
BP:
I think their realizing that recreation is a larger part of what the land use should be aimed
at and are developing the parks and developing the picnic areas which is a good thing.
And separating the cattle and the sheep from the riparian areas, I think are real good. It
should be done and its being done in a pleasing manner that is acceptable to the stream
users, picnickers, and to the livestock owners.
RS:
What changes have you seen in the land use policies in the canyon in the last 50 years?
BP:
Like I said the main thing I can see is permits and the separating of the sheep and the
cattle and getting the permits and keep them off the waterways. I think all that is going to
improve the canyon.
RS:
What other aspects have influenced land use policies in Logan Canyon?
BP:
Well, there’s always wilderness areas. Wilderness in Logan Canyon I don’t think is a
viable option. Looks to me like the best use is a multiple use and when you create
wilderness areas, if they expand the wilderness areas like some people want them to do, it
could be a disaster for recreationists and the livestock industry too. I think the wilderness
area is limiting the recreation use, to where a person my age can’t get up and use the
ground. It’s much better to have it opened up to motorized vehicles so I can get up and
see Mt. Naomi. If I could go up on a 4-wheeler I think it would be really great. And I
think a lot of other people would go there if there was an improved trail for A.T.V.s so
you could go up there and take a look. I think it would be a wonderful thing. I think
wilderness is ok in its place but I don’t think any wilderness expansion should be taking
place and maybe some areas declared wilderness should be eliminated.
RS:
Ok so do you have any personal involvement in land use or management in Cache
Valley?
BP:
Not at the present time, no.
RS:
Have you in the past had an involvement in making decisions about land use or
management?
BP:
Well I was President of the Cache Wool Growers for years… which consisted of the
wool growers that ran sheep in the Cache National Forest. I was president of the Logan
Board of Real Estate for two years. When I was in the real estate business, I wanted to
develop a Planned Unite Development. I helped write a PUD ordinance for Cache County
and put in the first PUD development, Sheep Creek Cove.
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�RS:
Have you had personal involvement in land use or management in other areas not in
Cache Valley?
BP:
No.
RS:
Are you a member of any associations that are involved with decision making?
BP:
No.
RS:
Have you ever tried to influence government actions, possibly thru an organization or
writing letters, going to meetings?
BP:
No. Well, I did when I was president of the Cache Wool Growers, and I was director of
the State Wool Growers for a number of years. Most positions I would write letters and
try to influence public opinion.
RS:
And what was that like?
BP:
Well, we just wanted to make sure all of the rights of permit holders were recognized and
it wasn’t a real active campaign but it was in case a wool bill or a tariff bill or something
came up we’d be interested in writing letters to a congressmen.
RS:
Do you have any special stories to tell about that? Any gains that you made while doing
that?
BP:
I don’t. I, we didn’t make too many gains.
RS:
Who were some of your most influential people in instructing you in your field, in the
ranching?
BP:
Wayne Cook and Halie Cox. Oh and Ben Haywood. Benjamin Haywood. He was good.
He was with the Soil Conservation Service.
RS:
Ok let’s just start with Wayne Cook. Is that C.O.O.K.?
BP:
Yeah. He was the professor of Range Management at USU.
Halie Cox was a graduate student. And he was a ranger, he was a graduate student when
we were running sheep and did experiment work on our range in the deserts. And he was
quite influential in my thinking about range management.
RS:
And then you said Ben Haywood.
BP:
Ben Haywood was a range specialist for the Soil Conservation Service. He worked
mainly with private ground. He had real success in showing ranchers how to improve
grazing practices. And how to get better returns from practices.
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�RS:
So he worked toward…
BP:
He worked for the Soil Conservation Service.
RS:
Can you tell me again why Halie Cox was so influential.
BP:
He was doing experimental work out there and I just got to know him and he would
explain things to me and help me out.
RS:
What kind of experiments would he do?
BP:
Grazing experiments on range use and plants and [?] the different grazing levels and
lower grazing, things like that.
RS:
Ok and Wayne Cook. Why was he so influential?
BP:
He was my professor that taught me range management courses that I took.
RS:
Who influenced you the most to continue in the ranching business?
BP:
Probably Ben Haywood.
RS:
What was the most critical policy that was enacted while you were working in Logan
Canyon?
BP:
I think the most critical thing was keeping the cattle and the sheep off of the riparian
areas of the streams. That’s when that started. And improving the watering holes so that it
was better distribution of livestock.
RS:
And was that the land management policy that impacted your operation, your land use the
most?
BP:
Mmm Hmm.
RS:
Do you have any other particular stories you would like to share?
BP:
Not that I can think of at this time.
RS:
Are there any books or writings that influenced either your land use beliefs or your
management practices?
BP:
Not that I can think of right now.
RS:
What world events have had the most impact on your professional life? What world
events have impacted your professional life?
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�BP:
Probably that sheep kill was the most important.
If you have any other questions don’t hesitate to call.
RS:
I will. I don’t want to be here too long today and I will take a look at what we have and
see if I did a good job or not since it was my first one. I appreciate you talking to me
though!
BP:
Well no problem at all! And anytime you need some more information if I can help don’t
hesitate to call.
RS:
Ok thank you very much!
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�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/340">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/340</a>
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Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
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2012-02-10
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Title
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Willard (Bill) Reed Petersen interview, 14 April 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Mr. Peterson talks about growing up in Hyrum, Utah, his father's ranching and farming operations, working with his families’ sheep ranching operation in Cache National Forest and in Box Elder County. He talks about getting out of the sheep business due to a mysterious event that killed over 300 sheep in the mid 1950s that also caused many of the sheep to become sterile. After this, the family got out of the sheep ranching business. Additionally, Peterson talks about his education at Utah State University and University of Utah and going into the real estate business in Bear Lake Valley, as well as, local land conservation issues.
Creator
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Petersen, Willard Reed, 1926-
Contributor
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Smith, Rebecca (Interviewer)
Subject
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Petersen, Willard Reed, 1926- --Family
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Sheep--Utah--History
Sheep industry--Utah
Sheep ranchers--Utah
Sheep ranchers--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Sheep--Feeding and feeds--Utah--Hyrum
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Land use--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Grazing districts--Utah--Logan Canyon
Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Canyons--Utah--Cache County--Recreational use
Ranching--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Farming--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Fishing--Utah--Cache County
Cache Wool Growers Association
Petersen Land & Livestock, Inc.
Range Management--Utah
Allotment of land--Utah
Natural resources--Management
Rangelands--Utah--Cache County
Rangelands--Utah--Box Elder County
Sheepherding--Utah
Petersen, Willard
Petersen, Howard Clark
Petersen, Stanford B.
Sheep--Mortality--Utah--Box Elder County
Real estate business--Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Land use--Law and legislation--Utah--Logan Canyon
Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae
Rangelands--Multiple use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
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Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)
BearLake County (Idaho)
Rich County (Utah)
Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah)
Hardware Ranch (Utah)
Box Elder County (Utah)
Rattlesnake Mountain (Utah)
Curtis Creek (Utah), Rock Creek (Cache County, Utah)
Left Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 4
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Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
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Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
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audio/mp3
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FolkColl42bx4fd4BillPetersen
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14 April 2008
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2008-04-14
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/1ea510c15a238ccf9fa7358fcb64fc32.mp3
f78c986a0fdab62b3571ef694644db75
http://highway89.org/files/original/cdd79f69f24af51026686026396d0e40.pdf
a76a08d31a66f0f33e03b8cae68995c3
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Ted Seeholzer
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office, Logan, Utah
November 19, 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Brad Cole and Clint Pumphrey
Brad Cole
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Randy Williams (2 March 2009 & July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in
Logan Canyon. He speaks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his
family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He
also talks about interactions and his relationship with the Forest Service and Utah School and
Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years.
Reference:
BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries)
CH = Clint Pumphrey (Interviewer; USU history graduate student)
TS = Ted Seeholzer
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 1: A]
BC:
Hi. This is Brad Cole from Special Collections and Archives at Utah State University.
Today is November 19 [2008]. And we’re in Logan, Utah visiting with Ted Seeholzer at
the Beaver Mountain Office – Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office. And also accompanying
me today is Clint Pumphrey, a [graduate] student at Utah State University.
Ted I always like to begin my interviews from the very beginning, [so] if you could tell
us when and where you born?
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�TS:
I was born in Logan, Utah – 1932; January 29, 1932. Seventy-six years ago.
BC:
And who were your parents?
TS:
Harold and Luella Seeholzer. They were both – my mom was born in Wellsville; my dad
in Logan.
BC:
And had they lived in the valley for quite some time?
TS:
All their life. Dad served no military time. And the furthest dad got away from Logan; he
went to New Zealand to help on the temple over there.
BC:
And your mother was from Wellsville you said.
TS:
Wellsville, yep. And her dad actually started the service station business in Cache Valley.
You can see the old – there used to be a service station between 1st and 2nd North, on the
east side of the road kind of where the Royal Bakery is there.
BC:
Um-hmm.
TS:
He started a service station there. One hundred years ago or more. I don’t have the
pictures handy here, but we do of course have them of that. So he was instrumental. He
also meddled in the horticulture business with Utah State many years ago. So our
family’s been active, not just the kids.
BC:
Um-hmm. So did you have a greenhouse then?
TS:
He had a cellar. That’s all they had was a cellar over there. They’d plant the trees, of
course harvest the apples and store them in there. At one time there was lots of orchards
in Wellsville; lots of orchards in Wellsville. I remember as a young person going over
there – the orchards. And he also had a cellar – it was a (what do you call them when they
have) a co-op type thing. And then he also had his own cellar that he would use for his
apples; and then he raised chickens at the same time. And I can still remember as a young
man and watching them count all the eggs and this, that and the other. He was a very
energetic old chap. You know, he was a “Svede” – Swede.
[Laughing]
And Grandma was a Dane. And they had their coffee every morning with their lumps of
sugar. I can still remember that. You know, maybe I’m getting off the subject here, I
don’t know.
BC:
That’s fine. So what were their names?
TS:
They were Brobie.
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�BC:
Brobie.
TS:
Don’t ask me Grandma Brobie’s name before she was married, I don’t know that. I don’t
recall that.
Did you got to school at Logan High?
BC:
No, I’m actually from Pocatello.
TS:
From “Pocaroostie”?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Can I give you a little more history there. My granddad’s brother had a cobble,
shoemaker, right across Logan High there on the corner – 100 years ago back in the ‘50s,
the old fellar did. You know, my family’s got quite a history here in the valley.
BC:
Sounds like it.
TS:
Yeah, yeah; a lot of history.
BC:
So what were some of your memories of growing up in Logan in the 1930s I guess?
TS:
Yeah. I know that my dad’s a plather by trade, okay. He’d put lath on it for you, plaster.
Of course during the Depression they did anything they could. He talks about working
with the Forest Service on the PWA [Public Works Administration agency of New Deal]
type stuff: going and roofing buildings, or whatever they could do to make a dollar. Dad
also trapped. His dad was a game warden at that time: muskrats and beaver, that’s where
some of the income was. I was born on West 3rd South and at that time Dad raised foxes
and mink for market. Shortly after that the Russians came in with all of their furs and of
course the mink markets went to the deuce [devil]. Dad was forced to sell and then
continue with his lathing. He still trapped rats; we still have some of the traps they used.
And like I say, his dad was a Fish and Game man.
I remember stories about Old Ephraim. Dad and his brothers chased Old Ephraim; the
same as the Crookston stories that you’ve heard. And I can’t remember the gentleman’s
name that finally ended up catching Old Ephraim. [Frank Clark; see USU’s digital
collection of Old Ephraim materials online.]
I know that our family lived on game: deer and elk and fish and ducks and pheasant;
[these] were extremely important to our meals. Dad used to illegally hunt ducks for
market. Dad was a pool player I guess. Down at the old Dee Woodall Pool Hall he’d
bring those ducks in there and throw them in the corner; you could take two for a dollar,
put the money on the counter. That’s what Dad bought shells with and whatever else he
needed. But I do remember that as a young person.
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�But I also remember the old automobiles and our trips to the canyon. [Getting choked up]
This canyon is pretty important (excuse the tears), but it’s been alive forever. I started
helping my folks [inaudible] when I was six years old and we’re still here. We are the
longest family owned ski area in America. I’m proud of that; pretty proud of that.
Anyway, I’ll try and collect myself here. But it’s touching. And you’ll find that the more
you dig the more it means to me. So anyway, that’s what I recall.
We did move from there on South Main, Logan River was right in our backyard. We
could fish anytime when the stream was open. And we always hunted ducks and
pheasants and those types of things. Dad got involved in the ski area in 1936 when it was
at the Beaver – and then it went from there up to the Sinks. Now, if you know where the
Sinks are, [they are] about a mile and a half above the state sheds up on the summit. It
was there from, oh, we finally came back to the Beaver in 1947 when money was
appropriated for the road through the county and the Forest Service and the state. Then
the Forest Service was very instrumental in bringing the water to the area. It was in ’39
that my dad and another gentleman took over the ski area and made it go [and we’ve]
been there ever since.
BC:
Who was the other gentleman?
TS:
Don Shupe.
BC:
Don Shupe.
TS:
Don Schupe was an auto body man. Shupe Auto body – it’s now (it’s no longer Shupe) –
shoot on the corner of 10th North and Main.
BC:
Oh, is that Miller’s?
TS:
Millers! Don Shupe was a first cousin to Charlie Miller, or brother-in-law or whatever the
situation was. And Don was there a couple of years and his back gave out on him and so
he had to bow out of the picture. Jane Johnson, who was married to Max Johnson
(LeGrand Johnson’s son) – it was her dad. (I mean just to give you a little relationship to
people that are still alive.) And we see Jane once in a while and we kind of kid about it a
little bit – what might have been, you know. So anyway, that’s the story. And I don’t
know how far you want to go along with this.
We came back in 1947; we put a rope-tow in. And then in 1948 we put in a T-bar.
There’s a big picture around here somewhere of it. Put in the T-bar and that run there for
a lot of years. That was kind of a make-shift – there was chairlifts in those days, but
money wasn’t available for us to do that. There wasn’t enough skiing public, lots of
things you can say why it wasn’t necessary. The size of Cache Valley wasn’t – the
population that skied was very small (and it’s still not very big in relationship for a major
business).
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�CP:
So who were most of other people who came to Beaver Mountain? Were they from the
Valley?
TS:
That started it?
CP:
Just to ski there?
TS:
Yeah. And it still is. We probably have less than – unless you want to call it college
student as a vacation skier or a transient or whatever word you want to use – then we
have about 1 to 1.5% of our people are out of state or transient skiers or vacation skiers or
whatever word you would attach to it. And we don’t see many of those. We’re seeing
more because of developments at Bear Lake. Wasatch Front is where a good share of
them come from. But we do have people who have timeshares and once they have come
and skied here we seem to get them back. The problem with that is the duration of the
sport that you do, that you’re real active in it: three years, five years, ten years? How long
did you play tennis? How long did you play golf? How long did you play badminton?
See, so this interest span, you have to have new all the time to replace the guy that’s
dropping out. That’s a pretty big deal actually in our sport.
You had a question?
CP:
Yeah. Just to go back to when you first started working at the ski resort – what kind of
responsibilities did you have then?
TS:
Up at the Sinks – now I’m five, six, seven years old; I was born in ’32, so ’39 is what?
[I’d be seven?]
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Dad built a building there out of weedy-edge siding. I don’t know if you know what that
is or not – that’s the edges when you cut timber, you don’t cut the bark off? Okay, that’s
weedy-edge. Dad built a small building down there – I think 12 by 14 or 12 by 12 – I
can’t recall. And Mother – that building was to serve as a warming hut and food service.
Now I forgot the question you asked me.
CP:
What did you do? What were you responsible for?
TS:
Oh, what did I did do? Okay, alright. Our function as kids of course was to, of course we
weren’t running lifts in them days, but we would bring the food service from up on the
road, down to that building for Mother – the foods were all fixed at home: the chilies, the
barbecues, that stuff was all fixed at home. And we’d carry it, all in boxes. Dad pulled a
trailer behind the car (brown ’39 Chevrolet), I can remember just like it was yesterday.
And then we would take that stuff down there and then we would bring it back. Sure, we
had a little snow to shovel, but you know, six-seven year old, you don’t get a whole
bunch out of them other than lip service. Then as we got older, 12 year old, 13 year old,
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�we were running – I was running a lift then. Today they would put you in jail if you did
that.
BC:
Now up at the Sinks, there weren’t any lifts then?
TS:
We had this cable (we called it a rope tow); it was like a rope-tow except it was a 9/16”
cable. And we had some hooks (I don’t have one here) that you would hook on the cable,
wrap it around you and it would pull you up the mountain. Now, how did you keep that
cable from burying you in the snow? Well on the highest spots we’d go cut an aspen, lay
it on the high spots and the cable would run on that. Of course, then we only skied
Saturday and Sunday, and there was a heck of lot more snow fell then than there is today,
I’m here to tell you. Talk about global warming, talk about whatever you want: we don’t
have the snow today we used to have. So it was always a big deal then to dig out of our
buildings, we left shovels outside – couldn’t get into them if we didn’t have a shovel! So
then those were the type things that Norm Mecham and I (Norm, he lives in Arizona or
somewhere now). But that was our responsibility to go up and dig it out.
My brother worked when he was older – he was almost eight years older than I am – so
he had more responsibilities. Then he went away to school and blaty, blaty, blah. But he
went in the military is where he went. ’42 he went and Uncle Sam joined him up.
And then in 1947 we came back here [Beaver Mountain]. But in those days ski crowds
were different than they are today. Utah State used to have a big winter carnival deal up
there. And when you go up there if you look on your left-hand side going up – it’s pretty
steep mountain there – and they used to build huge snow sculptures. I don’t mean these
snowmen kids make out in their backyards; I mean 12, 15, 18 foot high snow sculptures
of like the pyramid stuff is what they would build; or horse and buggy-type thing.
Literally shape them. It was a big deal. Somewhere I have those pictures. I don’t have
them now.
BC:
And that would have been in the 1940s?
TS:
That would have been in the ‘40s, yep. But see to prior to that Utah State held their
winter carnivals down at the old CC Camp [CCC: Civil Conservation Corps], right there
on that hill. Yeah. And Logan High used to hold a winter carnival down there also.
BC:
And the CC Camp, that was at the Sinks area?
TS:
No, The CC Camp is – do you know where the road to go to Tony Grove is?
BC:
Um-hmm.
TS:
Okay. Right across the street from that, they call it USU Training Center now.
BC:
Right.
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�TS:
But that’s the old CC Camp. And of course that come out of the Depression, like the
PWA did. And Utah State held their winter carnival – because it wasn’t until 1939 that
the road to Logan Canyon was open to Bear Lake; ’39 it opened to go to Bear Lake and
that’s what permitted us to move the ski area from down where it was, up to the Sinks.
Because we had to walk in; we parked down on the highway down there and walked into
the ski area.
BC:
At Beaver?
TS:
At Beaver, yeah. We didn’t go around the road – we cut through, you know; walked
across the creek and walked through the draw I’m telling you where the rock deal was?
That’s the canyon we went up. Now I’m jumping all over, but my feeble mind doesn’t
always work in a straight [line]!
CP:
Yeah, well since you mentioned the road, maybe we could talk about that a little bit. In
the early days – in the ‘40s when you first started having a big role in managing the ski
resort – what was it like getting up to the ski resort through the canyon from Logan?
TS:
In most cases the road was plowed like it is now. Of course, let’s be honest – the plow
trucks then probably went 20 miles an hour; today they’ll go 40-plus, or 30-plus,
whatever the turns will permit them to. The roads were in good shape, but what would
happen was the road would narrow and narrow and narrow because they didn’t have the
quality equipment to blow that snow off the side 100 yards or 100 feet or whatever. And
they did not use graders (patrollers with the wing on them) where they could come along
and slice the top of that off so the next time the truck come it could blow it over the bank.
And I’ll guarantee you they’ve made strides in building roads to help winter. Because
you never build a road lower than the sub-grade out the side. Because when the wind
blows, all the snow goes on the road. So you elevate the road so the snow blows crossed
it. And they have done that in several places in the canyon. But the road equipment today
is far superior. You have better tires on your automobile; you also have more four-wheel
drives. So driving today is much easier than it was then. But in conversation with a lot of
ladies that drive, it’s a terrible road! It’s unsafe! It ought to be closed! My goodness lady!
[Laughing]
CP:
So what was the condition of the actual road in the ‘40s when you first started working?
Was it paved all the way?
TS:
It was paved all the way – it was paved to Garden City. But it was much, much narrower.
Over the years they have been able to widen the road in various places. Environmental
restraints stop the road, like in the Forks, on up through there – environmental restraints
have inhibited the width of that: right, wrong or indifferent it depends on which side of
the fence you’re on. My complaint about the narrow road is that one tree blown across
the road can stop traffic and I’m saying, “Wait a minute. Is this modern times or is this
horse and buggy stuff?” And that’s one little complaint I have about some of the
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�restrictions. I am very environmental. But I’m also on the safe side for you and I to travel
the roads.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
That’s where I’m coming from on that. We could do things to ruin that ski area, but we
won’t do it; we won’t do it. Because once we take all the trees, once we push all the
brush off and those things, now we’ve ruined the aesthetics and you’re probably not
going to come up there. At least that’s our thinking; now maybe our thinking isn’t good.
But that is our thinking on it. We’re in need of some more parking lot but we don’t have
any place to go other than start cutting down trees. We’re not very enthusiastic about that.
We’re in conversation with the state to use some of the flatland down below and they’re
not very enthusiastic about that! Because of aesthetics. So what do you do? You say
okay, we’ve only got parking for 800 cars and when anybody else comes, we send you
home? Is that what you do? I guess it is. When the restaurant is full you sit down and wait
until somebody leaves, don’t you?
BC:
Yeah, that’s true.
TS:
And that’s the only answer I have right now because my wife is part of this; one daughter
and one son and their significant others. And I think they feel like I do, that we’re not
willing to cut down trees to make a place for you to park: right, wrong or indifferent. So
anyway, I keep getting off the subject.
CP:
That’s fine. I just wanted to ask you I guess during the 1960s they started to widen some
of the road down here closer to Logan; and then during the ‘70s and ‘80s it was kind of in
a gridlock because you know, they had to do the environmental assessment on the rest of
the road to see if they could widen it further or straighten it further. And there was a lot of
discussion I guess, in the valley and elsewhere, about how they should go about doing
that. And there were some people I guess who were very, very much for the straightening
and widening so they could get back and forth to the ski area, to Bear Lake –
TS:
Well not just ski area, but Bear Lake, but consider one other thing; think about one other
thing besides you and I to ski and to camp and that. This guy that lives in Bear Lake – he
doesn’t have access to a quality hospital. He has access to an ambulance, he has access to
an ambulance – but he is 40 miles away if he lives in Garden City, from a quality
hospital. Now do we deprive him of that privilege?
CP:
Right.
TS:
He’s got a hospital in Montpelier that’s like this one down here was 10 years ago. See. So
there’s more to it than just a place for you and I to drive; there’s other people to think
about to in the use of that –
CP:
So when all that debate was going on, did the people at the ski resort at all get involved
with the discussion with the –
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�TS:
I sit on the board on Logan Canyon to decide – not decide – put input into the decision to
do what we do with the highway. We are restricted extremely by the Corps of Engineers.
The Corps of Engineers will decide what you’re going to do. Let me give you one
example of what our group did just on the last section from the dug way – from the twin
bridges – up.
Okay originally there was a design on that big cut right at the top of the twin bridges, to
take and cut that side off and go out around the side where all the timber is. We sat there
and looked at that and said, “What kind of a fool’s trick is that? Why don’t we go this
way, move the bridge downstream, we’ve got a barren hole here that we could lay the
sides back, whatever degree you want. We’re going to cut down a few trees, very few,
and you pull the road out of the shade and you put it up here on the hill and you don’t cut
down all this old forest.” Well imagine that! Somebody else can think just a little bit too!
So it’s just things like that, that they have people like me on the board because we all
have tunnel vision occasionally.
BC:
And that board – you called the Logan Canyon Board?
TS:
I’ll think of the name of it in a minute. There’s ten people sit on it. And you know what?
I’m the only one that doesn’t have my hand in the county or state’s pocket. I’m the only
person that doesn’t draw a paycheck from a government agency.
BC:
So that was a sort of inner-governmental board?
TS:
Yeah, it’s still there. It’s still in effect. I would be getting called in – they’re getting close
to doing a piece from the Beaver on up over to the Summit. My mind is getting weaker,
but I’ll think of the name of that board in a minute. There’s ten of us on there but I’m the
only one that doesn’t belong to a government agency.
BC:
So how do you feel with all the input and push and take – how do you feel like the road
project came out?
TS:
I think it was good. See, had you been here 30 years ago that road from the head of the
dugway was going to have cut right across the mountains and come in at Ricks Spring. It
would have crossed the river twice. See the thinking on roads has changed so much in the
last 50 years or 40 years. Years ago it was a straight line was the shortest route and the
best route. Well, in some cases yes, but many cases, no. That would have been a hell of a
mess if we’d have cut through and built a bridge across the road there and then cut that
mountain and crossed the river again to come in at Rick’s Spring. And see you’d have the
same thing at Hattie’s Grove. Instead of going around the bend and up – cut a chunk on
the upper end of Hattie’s Grove off and Bear Hole, then up to the cattle guard. To me that
wasn’t an appropriate route in those days – or even today even. So by getting more
people together and talking about it – and you’re always going to have conflicts. No, I
think they’ve done a good job on the road.
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�Mr. Weston who used to sit on the State’s – he used to sit on the UDOT Board [Utah
Department of Transportation] (he used to be the president – they have a committee just
like everybody else, the state does). He thought, “Well,” he said, “We’re going to get this
middle section of the road done. We’re going to get that done eventually.” He says, “Now
what we have is an hourglass. We’ve got good road on this end. We’ve got good road on
this end, and we shrink down in the middle.” He thought that the public would demand
that they do something through there. Well guess what? It won’t be in my lifetime. It
won’t be in my lifetime that that will happen. And there’s not much in my mind that they
can do there. Where do you go? You’ve got [a] steep mountain here and you’ve got river
there. Where are you going? Are you going to put an overhand over the river and let them
drive out there?
[Laughing]
You going to put up on the mountain 100 yards to get 10 more feet of road? I don’t think
so. The only thing that I can see that gets obnoxious is that they elevate the road, raise the
road up itself and leave the mountains. That ain’t gonna happen either. See, that’s what
they were going to do in Little Cottonwood Canyon because of avalanches.
BC:
Hmm. They were going to elevate it?
TS:
No. What they were going to do is they were going to build a wall here and build a bridge
over the road – just the opposite – and let the avalanches go over the road. Oh yeah!
There was a big study on that. Because it’s big dollars! Huge dollars! And believe me,
money talks! If you don’t think so, look at the last election.
[Laughing]
Let’s not get into that one. But anyway, you know we’ve done a lot of things at the resort
and a lot of changes take place. Roads are important; I’ve been screaming for seven or
eight years now that they get our entrance to the Beaver changed. And I finally got it this
summer. Because see, what was happening there when you came out of the Beaver you
would start a right hand turn – here comes the highway and you couldn’t see back up the
road to see if anybody was coming because the snow was piled too high. And let’s be
honest – the State can’t be responsible for every little piece of snow that you and I can’t
see over; they just can’t do it. And so by making it come straight out at the road, now you
and I can see up and down the road. Built a passing lane. Good. We haven’t had many
accidents – to my knowledge we’ve never had a real serious accident there; we’ve never
had a death. So maybe it wasn’t all that important. I’ve been cussed by a couple of people
because it is a little inconvenient to turn and then have to get down, whereas the other
way they’d be on the turn. But that’s okay, they’ll get over it. I think it’s a good thing. So
yes.
BC:
So after you moved back down to Beaver when did the first major lifts come in? You said
you had a rope tow and T-bar?
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�TS:
We had a rope-tow and then we put the T-bar in. Put the T-bar in ’48.
BC:
Um-hmm. And how far did the T-bar go up the mountain?
TS:
Okay. The T-bar went up about 1800-1900 feet. That was in ’47-’48. Then in 1960 we
put the first chair lift in. That would be the Face Lift. It’s still there and it’s still in the
same place. It hasn’t been remodeled; it does have a new drive; it does have new bull
wheels top and bottom. Still use the same chairs, new rope; same terminals. So it’s
basically the same place.
The ticket office that’s there now was built in ’47. One of these days we’re going to find
enough money to get it out of there. And in 1964 we put the Little Beaver Lift in. And the
same year we put that in we built the Lodge. Now the Lodge has only been remodeled six
times since we originally built it. And we’ve got a big addition going on it right now.
And then in 1967 we put the T-bar in – which neither one of you I think has seen run. It
was one of them good ideas that didn’t work. [Laughs] And then in 1969-70 we put the
Dream Lift in. And then six years ago, whatever that was, we put Marge’s Triple in. Then
we built a tube hill and that was another one of those good ideas that didn’t work. The
only thing that we salvaged out of that is the yurt and the yurt deck. We turned that into –
well we rent it out during the summer, okay. But now it’s rented every weekend in the
winter (with family groups or birthday parties or whatever; some are a few weddings,
things like that, family reunions, church groups, scout groups). But the yurt wasn’t a
terrible investment, but the lift [to tow tubers up the hill] was. Of course we were able to
sell that so that wasn’t too serious.
CP:
So when – I guess maybe we’re jumping ahead a little bit – so when snowboarding first
became popular was there any discussion at all about what Beaver Mountain would allow
and what they wouldn’t?
TS:
No. In the original – when snowboards first came out they had an organization (don’t ask
me the name of it) that they had for boarders and had a gentleman from Salt Lake that
would come up here, a young person. And he would watch you with your board and see
what you could do with your board. And when he decided that you had the ability to get
on the lift and off the lift with your board then he would give you a piece of paper or slip
that said we may sell you a lift ticket because you now have the ability to board and get
off the lift.
Okay, at first we restricted them from Little Beaver. Why did we do that? Because we felt
that the ability of a boarder to handle his board, we were concerned about mixing two
beginners. We also used to keep them off the ridge for the same thing. And all that
happened there was it created a big argument between our ski patrol and the boarders,
because the boarders were always deaf to the ski patrol, to see if they could get down
there without getting caught. But then what happened about the third year with boards – I
jumped over this – boards did not have medal edges. Just like skis didn’t used to have
medal edges. And so the industry said, “Wait a minute. You have got to have medal
edges.” And why? Control, control. And so then they started to put medal edges on them
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�and I think probably better bindings and blaty-blaty-blaty-blah. And today it’s – I think
there’s only three ski areas in the United States that don’t permit them and two of them
are in Utah: Alta and Deer Valley.
And that’s a business decision they’ve made. So I don’t think you ever will see them at
Deer Valley; I think someday possibly at Alta. And the reason I say that – these kids, the
skiers and snowboarders now – they hang together, they all come up in the same car or
whatever. They’re not like before, in my recollection of snowboards is that they were one
bunch and skiers were another bunch; they didn’t co-mingle, but they do today. They ski
the mountain together, they ride the same chair and eat lunch and all that. So Alta
(between us girls) is actually losing skier days. Finest ski area in America, there ain’t
nothing better than Alta.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Bar none. It’s the best. Their older set that skied there forever – the Spence Eccles and
those types – do not want to mingle with the snowboarders because they’re a little lower
grade of people.
[Laughing]
That’s the philosophy! And they have convinced Donald and before him Chick Martin,
that Alta would be a better ski area without them. I do know of some things that we have
problems with boarders. One is visibility, and we do have more collisions with boarders
than we do with skiers. That is a problem. They’re smart-mouthed (boarders), but you
know what? There are smart-mouthed skiers too!
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
It doesn’t all – just because you’ve got a board on you you can use bad language because
you could put skis on you and use the same language. That’s kind of a far-fetched deal
there. But no, boarding has changed a great deal and it’s probably 47-50% of our
business. We haven’t done a little survey in a while. Depends on the day; depends on the
day how many boarders we get. I think boarders are becoming more acceptable than they
were 15 years ago, or 10 or five even. I have concerns over some over the other
gimmicks that we’re using: bicycles on the mountain on snow. I have concerns over that.
We talk about – I don’t know if you’ve ever – do you ski?
CP:
I do.
TS:
Okay. Have you seen them up there on their – they’re not a bicycle with tires but they sit
on it, yeah. I have a problem with them in that they don’t have anything on their feet.
And so when they get on and get off the lift they can leave bad marks in the snow.
CP:
Right.
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�TS:
I think they have good control. Most of the people I’ve seen on them are a little older set.
100 years ago when Merlin Olsen and them guys were skiing we had what we called a
“sit ski” and it was very similar to these. And my hell, when them guys would fall they’d
leave a crater a size of this room!
[Laughing]
And not just him; I just can remember – I’m trying to think of the other guy that used to
play football same time Merlin did. Both of them skied. My hell they’d get in the chair on
the Face Lift together, the chair would almost come off the rope! [Laughing] Because,
you know, they were both big people. But we don’t have them to rent and we probably
won’t. How many things do you let on your mountains? You know? I think there’s a limit
to what should be permitted on a mountain to have fun with. If somebody else wants to
do it, that’s fine. And that’s Alta’s thinking on the snowboard and that’s Deer Valley’s
thinking on the snowboard: let them go someplace else. There is a place for them so,
there you go.
CP:
So I assume you’re a skier yourself?
TS:
Yep.
CP:
How long have you been doing that? All [of] your life?
TS:
Yeah. I won my first race at Alta at the age of 12.
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
I won at Snowbasin at the age of ten, before they had a lift. I won a metal at the NC2A
[NCAA].
CP:
Okay.
TS:
So, been around a little bit; been around a little bit.
BC:
So have you tried to snowboard?
TS:
No!
[Laughing]
No, something we ought to have at our resort is we ought to rent padding for first-timers.
[Laughing]
And thumb restraints. Because that’s what we’re hurting; we’re hurting thumbs, elbows
and shoulders with boarders.
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�BC:
Um-hmm; right.
TS:
The thing about boarding – a boarder the first day and a half, two days has more trouble
than the skiers. But by the third day he run off and hide from skiers. It’s a faster learned
sport. At least that’s what we’re seeing; even with or without lessons, it doesn’t seem to
make that much difference. I don’t know why it’s easier to stand on a plank with two feet
than it is to have two feet out here. I don’t understand that. But they do, they just run and
hide from skiers. Yeah.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
The demand that we have now for board use – we entertain a lot of schools. Last year I
think we had 32 different schools. Some of them came twice, but not many – and the big
demand was for boards. It cramps us to have enough boards for all the kids that want
them. Another thing that’s happening in the ski industry in the last three years really has
been strong is the helmets. And we have some helmets to rent, but on the weekends we
pretty much rent whatever (I don’t know we’ve got 12 or 15 of them). When these kids’
schools come, every kid wants a helmet.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
Are they necessary? I don’t know. I think there’s a deterrent with them. If you’re not
going to fall and hit a tree, I don’t think you need one. If you’re going to hit the tree the
next turn, then I think you better have one on!
[Laughing]
But they don’t solve all the problems; I’m sure they solve a hell of a lot of them, but they
don’t solve them all. Like the girl that hit the tree up at Beaver last winter and broke her
neck. But she hit – I mean I’m sure she had good speed – but it just pshh and that was it.
If she’d had a concrete block on there she would’ve still done it; it’s just one of those
things. And they happen. Thank goodness that’s the only second one in our ski area
career, you know we feel good. We don’t feel good about it; we feel good that we’ve
only had two.
BC:
Could you tell us a little bit about your relationship with the Forest Service? How does
the ski area work within the National Forest? I assume you don’t own all the land, but do
you own some of it, or . . . ?
TS:
None.
BC:
None. Okay.
TS:
Incidentally right now it is not owned by the National Forest. It’s owned by the SITLA.
You know SITLA is the School Institute for Trust Land.
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�BC:
Right, okay.
TS:
Years ago, early, early in life doing business (and I’m talking now when I’m 15, 16, 17
years old) listening to my dad talk to Owen Despain and all the other Forest Rangers that
we’ve had; and MJ Roberts and on and on – Dave . . .
BC:
Baumgartner.
TS:
Yeah. Until environmental thing became strong we could do about whatever we wanted.
In other words if we wanted to cut a trail here, we could cut a trail there; if we wanted to
build a road here, we could build a road here. And then as the environmental movement
got stronger, now we were more restricted; we had to do assessments and blahty-blahtyblah. And I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but you asked about the association.
BC:
Right.
TS:
Life with MJ Roberts, when he was Ranger up here, became almost unbearable.
BC:
And when would he have been Ranger?
TS:
Dave Baumgartner replaced him.
BC:
Okay. So Dave came at about 1990 –
TS:
Yeah, 1990-something. But see MJ Roberts had a long, long span. MJ Roberts and I did
not get along; at all. I guess we were both too hard-headed.
BC:
[Laughing]
TS:
Dad got along with MJ. But I couldn’t. MJ insisted on – we wanted to drill for water –
MJ wouldn’t let us drill for water. You know why? Because he didn’t want a ski area on
the National Forest. We had to have water! We were getting two gallons a minute from
the Logan Canyon side through a pipe that was buried that deep [gesturing]. We had
winters that that froze up – then what did we do? We hauled water up there in milk trucks
and pumped up to the reservoir and then feed it back in during the day for our restrooms.
There was things that wanted to go on Mount Logan that MJ – that would take power up
there to run the microwaves and stuff that’s up there – MJ about had a fit! He wouldn’t
let them put them on the poles because that was visible, and he also wouldn’t let them dig
a trench because of erosion. So he was kind of anti-everything. The forest itself I don’t
think was that way. You have to understand that every Forest Ranger runs his own
district as if he owned it.
BC:
Um-hmm.
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�TS:
Then when Dave Baumgartner got in – and others – life became a little easier because
they could see all they was doing was tying our hands. There is a demand for skiing;
there is a demand for picnic grounds; there is a demand for motor bikes. We have to have
sacrifice areas. It can’t all be trees and cows and deer and elk. That forest is used by
everybody; we all own it. We can’t destroy it; we can’t destroy it, but wise use. The
difference between an MJ Roberts and Dave Baumgartner was let’s see what we can do
and do it right.
Fred Lebar was my mentor and he was Assistant Ranger under MJ Roberts. Fred Lebar
could see – if I told you where we took the material on top of the mountain to build the
Dream Lift, you’d call me a fibbing liar. I mean we pulled everything on top of the
mountain behind dozers up roads that were that steep. Because MJ didn’t want a road
built (which would have been much nicer). You go up there in the summer, you look up
the rig and you see that road.
BC:
Yeah, huh.
TS:
We wouldn’t have had to build that road if he’d been not so dang hard-headed. So what
happens? You build a road straight up a mountain – which way does water run? Straight
down. You can build [in] all the cross members you want; until the sheep lay in them and
knock them down and then you’re right back where you started again. But anyway, after
Fred Lebar came in, I talked some sense into Fred; he talked MJ into letting us drill for
water. He talked him into building better roads; a road that was out of sight out of mind
to the top of the mountain. You can’t see it from the highway anywhere, and we could
use it without all the watershed problems, this, that and the other. Then President Clinton
made the Escalante Staircase down there a National Monument.
BC:
Monument, yeah.
TS:
Underneath that evidently is a lot of coal. And of course SITLA owned that land, but
when they made it a National Park now SITLA was booted out. So in order to satisfy
SITLA to replenish their income, they gave SITLA the privilege of choosing the land that
they would like to own to replace what they had lost down there. Well that went on for
two years and the attorneys fought and fought and finally the President stepped in and
said, “Hey this is bullshit. You take what you need without disturbing the forest and the
forest will relinquish it and do all these trades.”
Well SITLA owned 17,000 acres of land in Franklin Basin. SITLA has one thing in mind,
and that’s to make money. That’s their sole function is to make money. They were
making somewhere between $2500 and $3000 a year leasing that out to sheep and cows.
Not very much is it? The first year they claimed and took over Beaver Mountain they got
a check for $30,000 – which would you rather own?
[Laughing]
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�You know? You don’t have to be too bright to figure that one out. The difference
between SITLA and the forest is that SITLA wants you to do things that make money,
because if you make money, we make money. Now, we run stuff by SITLA – we just had
a meeting with them here a while ago. We’re up against a master plan; the county says
we got to do a new one. So we met with SITLA and told them of things we wanted to do
and they pretty much approved everything except a parking lot down on the road. Well,
okay if they’re not willing to do that then we’re going to have to restrict people (some
days) that want to come skiing. That’s just the way it works. Other than that, we pretty
much have a green light. We do need more water if we ever want to make snow. We have
enough water to give you a drink and flush the toilet. But if we ever want to make snow
we do not have enough.
SITLA would love to take all that land down there and develop it. I think it’s a ways off.
I think it’s a long ways off after seeing – well we’ve all seen. We have some friends in
Bear Lake that want to do some things with us up there to try and entice people to buy
their property. And I talked to them the other day and they said, “Forget that for awhile
because there isn’t any money.” There isn’t any money.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
But that’s the difference. One wants you to do things to make money, the other was more
apprehensive about growth, about growth. We never see SITLA. The only time we see
them is when we send them a check!
[Laughing]
BC:
So when you worked with the Forest Service did you actually have to buy a lease from
them? Or how does that -- ?
TS:
Okay. SITLA and the forest – it used to be that we could get a ten year lease, then it went
twenty, okay? Large ski area that have to borrow millions and millions of dollars, the
banks wouldn’t loan them any money. So it took about six or seven years of the National
Ski Area Association to go to Congress and say, “Look, we have got to extend the lease
that permits on these ski areas because these people can’t grow. We need the long term to
borrow money. We don’t need more land until we need more.” I mean you know how
that works, you know?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
I don’t need more potatoes until I empty my plate you know? And so finally they got the
Forest Service to give us a 40 year permit; 40 year permit. SITLA doesn’t like it. I don’t
care whether SITLA likes it or not! If I’m going to spend millions of dollars I want to
know that my permit is safe; I want to know that my permit is safe. I’m not going up
there to invest millions in this place and some attorney in Salt Lake that sits on SITLA’s
board and says, “That’s too long of a lease.” I don’t give a damn what he thinks! You
want to put your money into it Jack? So they’ve been pretty good.
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�They have wanted to re-write it. We have two permits there because at one time on the
Beaver, on the Dream Lift – there’s 31 acres there on a run we call Gentle Ben that
belonged to the forest. So (this is after the land trade) then we had to get another permit
for that. Wait a minute, maybe I’m telling you the wrong story here. That was state land,
that’s right. That was state land when it was forest because that little piece in there
belonged to the state. The state owned the other side. So we had to get a permit from
SITLA to use that 31 acres. Well now we’re still carrying that 31 acres and we’re
carrying the other one for 1000 acres. And they’re kind of holding that over our head a
little bit. Instead of putting both of them together (it would save us a little bit of money,
but no very darn much). They want to re-write the permit and go from a 40 year permit
(we’re good until 2038). And see then what we want in a permit is an automatic
extension for five years and five years. Now, how good is our permit? I don’t know.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Until somebody really tests it and somebody wants to own Beaver Mountain and wants to
kick us out, I guess that’s the day we’ll test it. My personal opinion is, the way it would
really be tested if somebody came in and wanted to develop all this down here, wanted to
take this 3000 acres and they wanted the ski area to do it and so they put the bite on the
state, says, “We won’t do it unless we own the ski area.” Then I think you’d start to see
some fur fly. I think that’s when it would get down dirty and ugly. But that’s not going to
happen in my lifetime. Because the money isn’t out there to buy. Bear Lake’s got what?
500 lots over there to sell?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Why would you buy one at Beaver Mountain? If you wanted to use Bear Lake’s you’ve
got the 12-15 mile travel; you could own one at Bear Lake and sit on the lake in the golf
course, if you want to go skiing you drive your 13 miles, go skiing and come back to your
place. That’s what I think. To me, Beaver Mountain is not a very attractive place, unless
that’s all you want to do and have a summer home. Then Beaver Mountain is not a very
attractive place. Whoever does it has a got a big row to hoe: they’ve got to bring more
power in. Now sewage is the big problem; we can bring power in and we can drill for
water – but something’s got to happen to that sewage.
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
And if you come in there with a 500 unit development or 200 unit development – that’s a
hell of a lot of sewage.
CP:
You can’t just get a septic tank, you know.
TS:
That’s BIG septic tank! We have seven septic tanks. We have seven septic tanks and we
pump them twice a year. Knock on wood, our drain fields are still holding up. See, a lot
of that land up there is clay.
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�BC:
Yeah.
TS:
And clay doesn’t take water. Well, when we hit a rock bed we just jump up and down!
We just jump up and down. But you know, I don’t think it’s going to happen for awhile.
But that was SITLA’s mission: to make money for the state of Utah.
BC:
Right.
TS:
And they do make a lot of money. They do make a lot of money for the state. They have
coal fields and that down there that are generating $100,000 a month! That’s a lot of
money for the school systems! A lot of money, that’s fine. The only thing I object to is
that Cache County charges us property tax on that land – not on the lift and that (they
charged on that, and that’s fine), but they are charging us property tax on that (I call it
real property) –
BC:
Right.
TS:
Okay, as if we owned it as developable property. They’re saying out of this 1,000 acres,
800 of it is developable. And I’m saying, “Bullcrap.”
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
It’s not developable! You’re not going to build on 32% slopes!
CP:
[Laughing]
TS:
And I haven’t been able to convince them (and I haven’t taken them to court) over the
fact that we really don’t want to give you $30,000 in taxes for something we don’t own.
BC:
No.
TS:
Now, it ought to be one or the other: we either ought to pay the state or we ought to pay
the county. One of the two, but not both, at least that’s my thinking. I’m sure I’d get some
arguments over that. [Phone ringing] Yeah, that’s my wife. Excuse me, please.
CP:
Sure.
[Stop and start recording]
CP:
Make sure it’s going there. Alright, we’re back. So we were just talking about your
relationship with government agencies and things that you have leases from and
everything, for the ski area. Just to kind of maybe get a base line here – we talked about
SITLA and the Forest Service; there’s some state land that you all lease from right now.
When you first started working at the ski resort was the land ownership different than it is
today?
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�TS:
Well the land ownership when we first started, either up at the Sinks or down at the
Beaver, was all Forest Service land. Either place it was. And then – hmm, I’d have to
look it up, but probably nine years ago it was turned over to SITLA, which is the School
of Institutional Trust Lands and they became the landlords. Their function is to develop
the land and make money for the school systems. So it’s just been the two different land
owners; both of them with very different missions – not different missions, but different
attitudes. One wants to make money and the other doesn’t care whether they make money
or not because they get a blood transfusion every July. But SITLA needs to make their
own money for themselves, the people that run it and also for the school systems. So that
in essence is the two different people that we do business with.
We do have to account to Cache County for all building permits, for taxes, for building
inspections, for food service inspections, for water testing, all of those types of things. So
we’re just like any other. We’re almost [like a] city in that we have to adhere to all the
rules and regulations almost that Logan City would have to adhere to. Safe drinking
water, fire prevention, water systems for fire – you name it. We do have ambulance
service up there, we do have ski patrol that has excellent facilities to take care of injured;
we do not have the ability to shock a patient in case of some heart problems from
afibrillation – we do not have that, but almost that good of communications with them.
As soon as the county gets this 800 megahertz [MHz] in, then we will have direct support
from the hospital to run some of this equipment that we do not have – oh, you get 100
people and somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing, but with the direct support from
the hospital and this 800 MHz comes in will be a good thing. It will also mean that the
Fire, Sheriff’s Department, Police Department can talk all the way through Logan
Canyon without the help of repeaters. They’ve tested it; they can talk right from Third
Dam to Garden City from the top of the Beaver. And this side is being developed; they’ll
build it next year which will be a good thing. There’s no site up there for cell phones;
there’s a little difficulty there going on between the state and federal government because
the state wants it on their land because they make a lot of money off of cell phone towers.
CP:
Um hum.
TS:
SITLA has given the state the right of way over the land to get to Beaver Mountain. But
also written in that right of way is the fact that they will not be permitted to put cell
phones on their tower.
CP:
Ah.
TS:
Right, wrong or indifferent, when you have the power you can do what the deuce you
want, you know?
CP:
Right.
TS:
If you have to ask permission you do what you are told usually. That’s the way it works.
So, it will be a good thing.
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�CP:
So, can you think of any government policies: national, local, state policies that have had
a major impact on your operations over the years?
TS:
The big thing was when they made our permits to the National Ski Area Association they
made the permits for forty years. But also within that system is the fee system; it’s locked
in for forty years. With so much based on income; as you make more money you pay
more. It’s based on a million income, two million, three, four, five up to a hundred
million dollars: which some ski areas would do; some of your large Colorado areas. And
it is all predicated on the dollar’s worth. When the dollars up it costs us a little more and
when the dollars down it costs us a little less. It is something that set in concrete so small
little resorts don’t have to go negotiate that with our Forest or the state or whoever owns
the land.
If you are on private land then that is something else. But we do pay income taxes on
every dollar that comes in like anybody else. We do pay sales tax. We do have a small
exemption on sales tax and that is for the lifts, our snow making equipment, our snow
grooming equipment. Now why did the state of Utah do that? Because Colorado has no
sales tax on lift tickets; so we compete directly with Colorado for skiers. (Not Beaver
Mountain so much but the Salt Lake resorts.) So the Utah Ski Association met with the
legislator a number of years ago and said “Hey look, we are at a disadvantage; we need
something to kind of offset this sales tax on lift tickets.” So they did give us the
exemption on the purchase of ski lifts, on the maintenance of them and on snow making
and on snow vehicles: over the ground vehicles. But that is the only break we get.
CP:
So how has the environmental movement changed what you do at the ski area? Have
there been any laws enacted or anything like that or environmental laws that have
changed how you [do things]?
TS:
Not that I am aware of. The state is not immune to the environmental movement. But
they are immune to . . . In other words if SITLA did not want to adhere to Cache County
rules they wouldn’t have to. They’d just tell the County to go jump in the lake. They may
end up in court. I’m not saying they wouldn’t do that. But, I remember a statement that
the director of SITLA [made]. He came up here I took him around and introduced him to
all the [Cache] County Commissioners and Lynn Lemon and all those people that’s
involved in that, our state representatives when this thing was taking place. And the lady
who was chairman of the County Commission asked this person “Well, would you adhere
to County zoning?” And he said “Yes, if it doesn’t interfere with what we want to do.”
What did he tell her? “Yeah, if you don’t bother us, we’ll go along with you.” You know.
CP:
Right.
TS:
So that’s between the state and the county. Our deal with the county, we have a master
plan: we work on a master plan. We have to submit drawings, we have to get building
permits. Blah de blah de blah; so nothing’s really changed.
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�CP:
So aside for that one forest ranger that you mentioned, your relationships has been pretty
good with the government?
TS:
They have, they have. You have to give and take. You can’t be overly demanding, but
you have to go in and – See the difference between the Beaver Mountain and the Forest
Service: we have to make money because we don’t get a blood transfusion every 12
months; we have to make our own money. And if they make life so miserable and so
expensive that we can’t make a profit and then we cease to exist. So they have to be (I
don’t know what word I want to use here) but they have to be sympathetic to our needs
because Beaver Mountain entertains more people on that 1,000 acres of land than the
Forest Service does – not on the whole Cache – but on the Cache/Blacksmith fork/Logan
Canyon and then up toward Richmond. We entertain more people than all the
campgrounds and that put together on this part of the Cache except maybe during the
deer hunt.
CP:
Whoa.
TS:
So as far as campers, trailers, hikers, bikers, horse riders; we entertain more than they do.
We entertained last year 87,000 people.
CP:
So what kind of – you know, 87,000 now – what kind of increase have you seen since
you started working at Beaver Mountain?
TS:
When I was a kid and we were up at the Sinks, lift tickets were $1 a day. And I can
remember when $39 was a big day.
CP:
Wow!
TS:
This book right here you saw me digging out?
CP:
Uh-huh?
TS:
That book, that book is one that my folks kept that tells what money income was at the
ski area. For example, (let me go back) – [flipping through pages of a book]
CP:
This is a ledger?
TS:
Yeah, this is a ledger.
CP:
With the date?
TS:
This is the date: on December 15, 1956 we took in $47.25 on the lift and $13.30 on the
shelter, in 1956.
CP:
Uh-huh. Yeah.
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�TS:
So how many people is that? I don’t know what lift tickets were at that time. This doesn’t
tell me. For the month of December we generated $1,128; in the food service we
generated $331.
CP:
That’s where the money is, or was then.
TS:
Yeah! I mean, you know. And here it says it started a lift December 19, 1954. December
19 they did $41.25 on the lift and $12.80 on food service. The month of December we did
$175.50 on the lifts. That’s not very much money!
CP:
No, no. Especially now, with passes being a few hundred dollars, so.
TS:
And this goes back – I talked to you about the Mount Logan Winter Carnival; Mount
Logan Ski Club Carnival – here’s all the people that raced and the times. And a lot of
these people are still alive, like Jerry Wallace and Max Sears, John Croft – these are
people that are my age. Eldon Larsen’s dead, but I mean that doesn’t mean anything to
you, but my dad kept records of everything.
CP:
Yeah. So what years, what time periods does that book cover there?
TS:
[Looking in the book] March 10, 1946. And here’s the cross country, the snow sculpture I
talked to you about snow sculpturing.
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
American Vets Rotary Club Mountain something, somebody – I can’t remember. (Some
of the book’s had water spilled on it.) But this book here, this little one, gives all the
times that our people worked. This one is not so old here; who worked, how many hours
and what their pay was. It’s kind of fun to dig back in that when we paid people $2.20
and hour.
CP:
Right, right.
TS:
You know, kids in high school.
CP:
So how have people’s demands changed? Skiers’ demands changed over the decades?
TS:
Well.
CP:
I’m sure what skiers expect from Beaver Mountain is much different than something they
might expect somewhere in Park City, or –
TS:
Right, right. It depends. Skiers today want lifts that run good, lifts that are comfortable;
they would like high speed lifts. Beaver Mountain can’t afford high speed lifts for a
couple of reasons: first of all the expense in buying them; and second of all, the expense
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�in hiring the qualified people to run the electrical system in them. See you would need –
on high speed lifts – you have to hire EEs (Electrical Engineers).
CP:
Really?
TS:
What would you have to pay an Electrical Engineer? $50, $60, $70,000 a year? Psh.
Maybe $80 maybe $90? That’s a lot of money!
CP:
Right.
TS:
Where we can get guys with the lifts we have now, we can hire them for 35-$40,000.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
But the public does want the faster lifts; they want better groomed ski runs (which we
have the ability to do); they want good food, fast; they want a place to lounge (which you
can’t always supply – you get 1,000 people, you’re lodge holds 300 you know,
somebody’s going to have to leave) that’s a problem for us. We do not have the problems
with our clientele that the Salt Lake resorts do. Why? Most of our skiers are local. 85% of
their skiers are out of state, probably people that make a little more money who seem to
be more demanding. Now somebody don’t misunderstand what I just said, “seem to be.”
You can talk to the guys and gals that work at Alta on the lifts and they’re very happy
when spring comes because they’re tired of putting up with people who are demanding.
CP:
Right.
TS:
The Deer Valley will tell you the same thing; Park City will tell you the same thing. We
have a totally different – not totally – but pretty much different clientele than they have.
So a ski area ought to be a fun place to work, because whomever’s there is having fun;
they want to have fun. They’re there for enjoyment. Maybe they only take one ride and
go out and tailgate the rest of the day.
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
But that’s their entertainment! That’s what they do! Who says that because you buy a lift
ticket that you’ve got to make 15 runs a day? It’s an activity, it’s a sport, it’s a recreation,
it’s a happening.
CP:
Yeah, yeah.
TS:
And we’re seeing more and more of that all the time. We’re selling, oh 4 or 5,000 season
passes. Do you think them people are going to come up there everyday and beat their
head against the wall and run, run, run? No. They’re there for the experience; they’re
there to have fun; they’re there to socialize.
CP:
Right.
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�TS:
That’s good. That’s the way it should be; that’s the way it should be. Sure we have young
people that come up there (and older ones) that they got to get as many runs as they can
get because they spent $38 for a lift ticket and “by God, I’m going to get my money!”
Fine, fine. You can ski just as dang hard as you want. It doesn’t bother me. If you want to
go out and tailgate on your parking lot and fix whatever you fix – fine with me! Just don’t
leave your mess! [Laughing]
CP:
So then back in the ‘40s, you’re saying that basically the people just wanted a way to get
up the mountain and –
TS:
Okay. Back in the ‘40s we had a different ski area than we got today.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Back in the ‘40s you had the outdoor, mountaineering-type person – that was rugged (I
don’t like that word), but the rugged type individual. Today what have we got? The sick,
the lame and the lazy!
[Laughing]
Included with these others.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Who would’ve ever thought back in 1940 that you would have had adaptive scheme for
somebody that didn’t have his legs.
CP:
Mm-hmm.
TS:
Or somebody that didn’t have any arms; or somebody that couldn’t stand up that had to
be in a wheelchair. Who would’ve ever thought of that in 1940? We’ve got them
everyday up at the Beaver!
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
Thank the good Lord there’s people that are willing to do that for those people.
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
We, at Beaver, try to make life easy for them. We donate lift tickets to those people. And
here again, what I just said, the sick, the lame and the lazy. And I don’t mean that
derogatory, but that’s how it’s changed! We don’t just have a fur coat that we pull on and
go skiing, we got underwear and we got clothing that would keep you warm at 40 below!
CP:
Right.
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�TS:
And doesn’t have to be six inches thick like the old suits we used to wear. And the big
awkward shoes and four layers of socks! Now we wear one layer of thin socks and keep
warmer than the days when we wore six pair of socks!
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
So things have changed. Our equipment has gotten better; the lift has gotten better, the
food service has gotten better, the lodging has gotten better. Not just at Beaver Mountain,
at ALL resorts.
CP:
So have you ever tried to actively draw any of the crowd from Salt Lake City?
TS:
No.
CP:
Never tried? Never had any desire.
TS:
Well, okay. We do a little of it. But why should I solicit you if I don’t have a place for
you to stay?
CP:
Right, right. I mean you’ve got your niche, so.
TS:
Yeah, we’ve got a niche!
CP:
Right.
TS:
We think that if we ever get Bear Lake organized – have you been to Bear Lake lately?
CP:
I have!
TS:
Have you been there this winter?
CP:
I haven’t been this winter. Last time I went was – well, actually last time I went was this
summer.
TS:
Okay, there was a few food places open, a few places to go eat weren’t there?
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
A couple of service stations, weren’t there?
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
Do you know what you’d find if you went over there now?
CP:
What’s that?
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�TS:
You’d find three food services open – one of them’s just Thursday, Friday, Saturday; the
other one’s open seven days a week and the other one’s open five days a week. Is there a
grocery store? Well, not as big as this office we’re in.
[Laughing]
See. You got a place to go to a movie?
CP:
Uh-huh,
TS:
Do have a place to go bowling?
CP:
No, none of that.
TS:
Have you got a bar to go in? What have you got? Nothing. So would you want to take a
vacation and go and stay at Bear Lake with nothing to do after seven o’clock at night?
Probably not. So why should I solicit you to come to a place that I don’t have a place for
you.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Now, let’s be honest. I think there’s people out there that we could solicit and tell them
honestly what we are that would come and stay at a hotel/motel in Logan, and travel the
30 miles to the resort. Why? Mon-ey! They can stay down there for 40, 50, $60 –
whatever it is – they can ski for $40.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
That’s a damn cheap ski trip.
CP:
A good deal.
TS:
It is! But you have to be willing to relinquish the assets that are at Deer Valley or Park
City.
CP:
Right.
TS:
You have to say, “Well they’re not of value to me.” I don’t have them, I don’t have any
money to pay for them either.
CP:
So has anyone in your business actively tried to encourage development of Bear Lake at
all, or is that kind of outside your –
TS:
I think they need a large convention center over there; they need a decent grocery store
over there. They need some entertainment over there. But what I can understand, that of
the people that own homes in Bear Lake, Garden City, all that area – that maybe 5% of
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�them use them year-round, and the other 95 are used for a few weeks out of the year
when Bear Lake is handy or if they came from the Wasatch Front, come up here and take
over the Christmas Holidays. We do get quite a few people from the Wasatch Front over
Christmas because they own places over there.
But for us to go out and solicit large groups of people to come to Beaver, it might work
once, but you’d never get them back. You’d never get them back because we are not that
kind of a ski area. We’re that kind of a ski area, but we’re not that kind of a facility ski
area (if that makes sense to you).
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
People say “Well look at all these people that go to Park City!” I said “My Lord! Look at
Park City! It’s a mile long with stores on every side: hotels, motels, bars, eating food, rent
skis, buys skis, buy a fur coat, buy a diamond ring, what do you want?!”
CP:
[Laughing] And they got a airport, you know, not very far away, so.
TS:
Yeah! See, so that what I think most ski vacationers want. Not all, not all.
CP:
Convenience. Yeah.
TS:
Convenience! I was in Ketchikan five years ago. And at Ketchikan these –
CP:
Alaska?
TS:
Alaska. Ketchikan, Alaska. Where these ships come in from these people that are on
these cruises; cruise ships come in there. There were two cruise ships come in there that
would hold roughly 4,800 people a piece. They both pulled up to the dock; long as a
football field; four stories high – I don’t know how big. And we’d sit in there waiting for
an airplane out of there, we had a day to loiter. And the town there at Ketchikan is about
four blocks long, (the whole thing it’s a lot longer than that). Those tours were totally full
of those people coming to buy stuff to take home. You think those locals didn’t know it?
You could walk there at 10 o’clock and there would’ve been nobody in the store, but at
11 it would have been full of people taking your money and people shopping. And they
would blow the whistle and all those people would leave and they’d go back on the boat
and it was a ghost town again. So people will spend the money if you’ve got a place for
them to spend it. And you don’t have that at Bear Lake. Now, summer pretty good;
winter, not so good.
CP:
Well I just wanted to go back and ask you one more question about an environmental
policy that’s come up in recent years, and just was wondering if it affected your business
at all. Just the debate over motorized versus non-motorized transportation: snowmobiles –
TS:
It hasn’t got onto to us because we so far have been able to keep the snowmobilers out of
there in the winter: because skiers and snowmobilers collide.
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�CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
If they go up there on the mountain and they dig a deep hole and some skier falls in it,
hurts himself, who’s responsible? I don’t know where that guy is that left it with a
snowmobile. Those are things that we get concerned about when we groom, that we don’t
leave bad places for you to drop a ski or a board in and get hurt. Those are things that we
try to avoid. No, we have stayed out of that fight between the cross-country skier and the
snowmobiler. No, it hasn’t affected us because we’re a different – no, we don’t permit
them to park in our parking lot; we need it for our people. There’s a parking lot down
there, go use that and if it’s not big enough, don’t bother me go to the state. That’s their
concern, not mine.
CP:
Right.
TS:
See, what happened with the environmental movement – when we first started to develop
in the ski area in 1977. We had to do a big master plan: that was it. (Fact it was before it.)
So what we did, we hired some people to make all the lines and the circles, and write the
write-ups. And we had two meetings and we invited all the politicians, we invited all the
environmental community, of course the Forest Service, ski groups, anybody else. And
we met at the ski area. We had a few hundred people show up and we had about eight
tables. And we had a chairman at each table: he talked about power, or he talked about
whatever it was – cutting trees, or putting up ski lifts, or parking lots, or whatever. And
so all of these environmental groups, they came and they got their input, they got their
input to what they thought ought to happen. And those inputs were considered and then
we wrote up the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) and those things were put in
there weighed against something else. You know what? We never had one complaint
from the environmental community because they were invited to have their say. Now if
we would’ve done that without including them, they would’ve found reasons to block it
or get our master plan. But because they were involved, they had input into it, they were
happy with that. So, we’ve done a couple of things right.
CP:
Right, right. I just wanted to ask another thing about how the ski area has changed over
the years. How has it changed in terms of summer use?
TS:
Okay, years ago – of course when we were in the Sinks, we had nothing. We come into
Beaver in ’47, we had nothing. Then about 12-15 years ago we decided to try summer
activities. And so we planted three semi loads of grass out around the deck at the lodge so
that it looked nice. We cleaned up all the brush and the rocks, we cleaned all that up. I got
pictures to show you what it looked like, the devil. And so then we put the RV hookups;
put in 15 of those. And slowly we started renting them. So now 15 on the weekends, 16 is
not enough. So we put people on what we called the “upper side” and they can run a cord
and get power; they don’t have sewer, they don’t have water. And then we have tent sites;
six tent sites. Some of them one tent, two tents; some of them 7, 8, 9, 10 tents. We have
permanent pitch tents. We have four, ten-man tents that are permanently pitched that you
can rent for whatever you want. And you have water there, but no power, no sewer. But
we do have toilets, temporary toilets. Then we have the yurt, we rent the yurt out. That’s
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�rented out a lot in the summer. The day lodge, we rent the day lodge out. So we’ve gone
from doing nothing, to finding everything we’ve got at the resort where we can put a tent,
where we can put an RV spot. Now we can build some more RVs in the upper parking
lot, we can do that and we will do that. But we’re looking for a little more demand
because you understand in economics if you build and they don’t come, you still get to
pay for it.
CP:
That’s right.
TS:
But when there’s enough demand and you build and you know they’re going to come,
then you’re fine. So maybe our financial philosophy is different than the others: we don’t
like to borrow money. We don’t borrow money. Beaver Mountain has not borrowed
money since 10, 11 years ago when my wife and I bought my brothers and sisters out, we
didn’t have the money so we had to borrow it. Since then we’ve been able to do whatever
we’ve done, on our own money. And that’s good because we do not build, we do not
spend before we’re sure of our return. That’s the way it works. That’s the way it should
work! It’s worked for us.
CP:
So then, just to kind of sum up everything we’ve talked about – what do you feel is the
future of Beaver Mountain? What do you think will happen after, when you pass it on to
someone else?
TS:
Well, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but what I hope happens – two of our kids
and their significant others are in the business with us. Our son Travis is around 50-ish;
Jeff [son-in-law] is around 57, 58. Travis doesn’t have any boys; Jeff’s got two boys. At
the present time they’re not very interested in the business. Will they become interested?
Will the girls take it over and run it, do the man’s work? I don’t know, I don’t know. I
would like to see it stay in the family; I’m sure my folks would, you know? What
happens with development down below? Are they going to find an opportunity there to
sell it and walk away from it and make a lot of money? Or will they cherish it like we
have and say, “No, I don’t need the money, I don’t need the money”?
I think the ski area will grow more. I think there will be a couple more lifts put in; there’s
going to be some lodge additions, those types of things. We know that there’s going to be
more food service put in up towards the other side of the ski patrol building. There’s
going to be some buildings put in over at Marge’s Triple for food service and for
restrooms; that’s going to happen. So I see the ski area staying together, unless, as we
talked earlier, that the state finds a buyer for the whole thing and the only way he’ll buy it
is if the ski area’s included and they find a way to boot us out of there.
So that’s my hope. Now are you the one that asked about a mission statement?
CP:
No.
TS:
Oh, I got another meeting at 12:15 or something with somebody else on similar stuff.
They want to talk about bicycles and summer bicycle rides and where’s your mission
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�statement? Where are you headed? Well, I think mission statements are for a little bigger
company than we are. I think if you sat Jeff in that corner and Travis and the rest of them
in these other corners, you went around and asked them, “What do you think is going to
happen to Beaver?” I think almost without exception you would get the same answer,
because we’re a small company and we have meetings and get-togethers all the time and
discuss where we’re going, so. Anyway, we’ll see what he wants to know.
CP:
Right. So you think it will stay –
TS:
A “Ma and Pa”?
CP:
Yeah a “Ma and Pa” that caters to a local crowd?
TS:
I think so.
CP:
Think so.
TS:
They say Logan is going to double in the next 20 years. Maybe, maybe. We do have
room up there to build more day lodges and that if we need. We hope to build one now,
we got problems with the ski shop, we got problems with the ski school, we got problems
in food service. We need more room. We need more locker space, if you want to rent a
locker. Our lockers are totally booked, and they have been. People they keep them and if
they decide they’re not going to stay, they turn it over to somebody else.
CP:
Do you think that the warmer climate is going to affect the way that your business is run?
TS:
I read an article here awhile ago that scared me to death because they predicted that by
2038 it would not snow – and that’s the last year of our permit with the state. How
expensive would that be? Yeah, I’m concerned over the climate. But the thing that
bothers me is Congress or whoever, the Environmental Protection Agency, is not willing
to let business do things that we hold down the greenhouse gases. They’re still running
their coal-fired generating plants, when they could put nuclear in, that puts out one-tenth
the emission.
CP:
Right.
TS:
And probably safer, if the truth was known. They said we would have to have two
Chernobyls a week to be any more than dangerous than the coal-fired plants. Do you
think we’re going to have two of them a week? I don’t think so. Three mile island? I
don’t think so. Now, they’re talking about the down-winders. Yeah, that was probably a
mistake. No, I don’t know. I think sometimes people do these things and say these things
to try and get some notoriety. I wish they had a little more technical data to tell us about
before they opened their yip. You know? Everybody wants to be up here; everybody
wants to be the knowledgeable guy or gal and I think sometimes the stuff they throw at us
is total bullcrap. But it is a concern because we do not have the snow now that we had
when I was a kid. We do not have that, I know that. I know that.
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�CP:
What kinds of measurements do you remember?
TS:
Well, that’s been so long ago. I can remember years of 120 inches of collected snow. We
can get 350-400 inches of snowfall, but it settles down;120-140. But now, if we get 80 or
90 it’s pretty good.
CP:
Right.
TS:
It’s pretty darn good. I can’t remember what last year’s was, I’d have to – let me write
that down in the book that I don’t have here.
CP:
It was pretty good last year.
TS:
Oh the skiing was good, yeah! It was slow coming. We didn’t open until the 22nd of
December!
CP:
Right.
TS:
I remember one year, ’77 or ’79 we opened the 23rd of February and closed the 15th of
March. That wasn’t too prosperous; we didn’t make too much money that year.
CP:
Um-hmm, right. So you save your money during the good years for when you have lean
years?
TS:
Well some people save for a sunshiny day and we save for a rainy day.
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
But you know, it’s been good to us. And so I’ve been wise with our money, we’ve tried
not to overbuy; we’ve tried not to over-speculate. Yeah, we’ve made mistakes; will we
make more? Oh yeah, I’m sure we will. If we do anything we will, if we do anything
we’ll make mistakes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the – wish I could look
back on this in 10 years and remember what we talked about. But I think the ski area will
continue to grow, as long as we have winter. As long as we market it right and treat our
people right – and that’s part of marketing – and provide a fair service for a fair price.
That’s what it’s all about. If you didn’t like hotdogs you got a Joe’s, you wouldn’t go
you’d go somewhere else won’t you?
CP:
That’s right.
TS:
Yeah, that’s right. And our transportation any more, yeah it’s kind of expensive, but it’s
not very far to Powder Mountain or Snowbasin, or Wolf Mountain, or you get a little
further down into Salt Lake. But it doesn’t seem like it bothers people to drive that far
anymore.
CP:
Yeah, well is there anything that you’d like to add?
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�TS:
No, I’ve probably said more than I got knowledge to say. But if you have any questions –
why, the phone’s here. Don’t be afraid to call.
CP:
Sure.
TS:
Don’t be afraid to call. And I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of stuff, but you know, you can’t
live a lifetime in two hours.
CP:
Right, right. Well, it was good to talk to you.
TS:
It was good to talk to you and good luck to you with what –
[Stop recording]
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�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337</a>
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Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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2012-10-17
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Title
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Ted Seeholzer interview, 19 November 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in Logan Canyon and talks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He also discusses his interactions and relationship with the Forest Service and School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932-
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cole, Bradford R.
Pumphrey, Clinton R., 1984-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Interviews
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Family
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Career in the Ski Industry
Beaver Mountain Ski Resort (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Fishing--Utah--Logan River
Hunting--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Shupe, Don
Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Ski resorts--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Seeholzer, Harold
Seeholzer, Luella
Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Snow and ice control--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon--Citizen participation
Skis and skiing--Utah--Beaver Mountain
Snowboarding--Utah--Beaver Mountain
Utah. School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
United States. Forest Service
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Winter festivals--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes
Skis and skiing--Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Mount Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 5
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Ted Kindred
Place of Interview: His home in Hyrum, Utah
Date of Interview: 13 August 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Darren Edwards
Darren Edwards
Recording Equipment:
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Express Scribe Transcription Software
Glenda Nesbit
Elaine Thatcher, January 2009; Randy Williams
(1/13/2011 & 7/13/2011)
Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau,
his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his
local history efforts.
Reference:
DE: Darren Edwards (Interviewer; USU graduate student)
TK: Ted Kindred
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and
stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted
with brackets. The interview is broken into five-minute tracks, which are noted in the
transcript.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Disk 1, Track 1]
DE:
This is Darren Edwards. I’m here with Ted Kindred at his home in Hyrum, Utah,
for the oral history of Logan Canyon Project. So what’s your full name?
TK:
What?
DE:
Your full name.
TK:
Theodore J. Kindred.
DE:
And when and where were you born?
TK:
Kansas City, Missouri, 1918.
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�DE:
So how did you get from Kansas City to Logan?
TK:
Oh, I was out here with Thiokol when they first started. I was a management
consultant. And, I don’t know. When they first called me to come out here I asked
them where it was at and they said Promontory. I said “You’ve got to be kidding.”
I said, “There’s nothing out there but sagebrush.” And they said, “No we’re
building a big plant out here.” So I came out and I stayed. Been here ever since,
this is home.
DE:
You decided you liked the sagebrush.
TK:
Oh, I love it here. I didn’t want to stay on the other side of the mountains [Box
Elder County]. So I wanted to come over here. And now it’s getting too crowded.
DE:
So what’s your earliest memory of Logan Canyon?
TK:
The very earliest is at the mouth of the canyon. It was a two-lane road at that time.
And the trees made a tunnel over the canyon there at the mouth. And you drove
that way almost to Malibu and Guinavah in that. Of course then when they
decided to widen it all the trees came out. No more up there. But, we used to go
camping up there and then later up at St. Anne’s. I used to go up there.
Monsignor Stock [of the Catholic Church] looked after it [St. Anne’s Retreat
when it was] left to them. And he only had a small parish here, and I was one of
the few in that. But anyhow he was trying to look after it, and so I sort of took
over half of it to look after. And oh, did a lot of repairs and things up there. And
then there used to be a tremendous amount of vandalism done up there because,
there are all kinds of stories you’ve probably heard and that. But it was basically
used as a, we [Catholic Church] called it retreat. But it was a vacation place for
the Holy Cross Hospital [in Salt Lake City] and the Benedictine Hospital in
Ogden, for them to come up and spend a week or two. But I don’t know. After
winter when it was closed up, they [vandals] used to break in and the furniture
was getting torn up and burned in the big fireplace and stuff. And I don’t know,
maybe you’d like some background of that St. Anne’s.
DE:
St. Anne’s is the Catholic retreat just up Logan Canyon? Yeah. Background
would be great.
TK:
Well some of the background: That land originally belonged to the Hatch family.
And they gave it to the Forest Service for lifetime lease on it. They kept it forever.
But Boyd Hatch took over and built, oh, a nice place up there. And I don’t know I
don’t believe a whole lot’s known here about him other than the Hatch Room up
to the University in the Library. That was donated by them. But he had a partner
at the Atlas Corporation: Floyd [Bostwick] Odlum. And he and Floyd, I’ve
always said, were the first conglomerate people. They had the RKO Studios and
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�Bell & Howell Camera, United Fruit, Bonwit Teller department stores: a whole
group of things.
But they would bring people in [to the St. Anne’s Retreat, then called Pine Glenn
Cove or Hatch's Camp or Forest Hills. It was placed on the national Register of
Historic Places on 28 December 2006]. They had a large closed-in porch,
screened in. And they’d fly people in from New York and Los Angeles, friends.
They had barbeques down by the river. And then on that porch they’d have big
name orchestras out of the, like RKO Studios. Bring them in for dances here and
things.
But [Track 2] anyhow, Boyd was going to build a Tudor mansion in Providence
up on the, up where Edgewood Farms is there. And he had a heart attack and died.
So all they ever got done was the foundation. [The furnishings for the library for
this mansion were donated to Utah State University and are now housed in the
Hatch Room in the Libraries’ Special Collection & Archives.] But then, they
Hatch and Odlum were both married to sisters: the McQuarrie sisters.
[Speaking of St. Anne’s Retreat]: Boyd died. Mary Anne [his wife] gave the
lower Hatch part to Monsignor Stock for the church. And later Hortense
[McQuarrie] Odlum she’d be up there by herself. She decided there’s no use her
coming up there anymore because Floyd had got a divorce and married Jackie
Cochran, a jet flying woman, jet flying ace. And so she called and told him
[Monsignor Stock] he could have hers, too. So they had the whole thing. But it
was a wonderful place. I used to clean out the pool up there, the swimming pool.
DE:
What were the names again of the people that donated that land?
TK:
Boyd Hatch and Floyd Odlum. It was actually their wives, Mary Anne and
Hortense.
DE:
Mary Anne and Hortense.
TK:
Hortense. Uh huh
DE:
How do you…Do you know how to spell that?
TK:
HORTENSE I think it is: Hortense. But there’s an interesting thing about that.
They were sisters – McQuarrie sisters. And their father died and Boyd’s [Hatch]
mother died—Eastman Hatch’s wife; the older one. And they met each other and
they got married. That made Boyd and his wife step-brother, step-sisters. It’s
interesting, it’s complicated.
But anyhow that covers pretty well what that was [history of St. Anne’s Retreat].
They finally, the nuns wouldn’t go up there anymore because there were too many
people trying to get in there. And they just didn’t want to be up there bothered at
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�night especially. So anyhow they had it for oh, the kids, needed places to go you
know, on that. And it didn’t last very long and they weren’t taking care of it. So
the church sold it; got out of it. But anyhow, aside from that the sisters still
wanted a place to go. And I had bought a place at Beirdneau; and I let them use
that place. They could come up there, small groups of them. It wasn’t big like St.
Anne’s. But they’d come up and I’d take vegetables and things up for them to
have while they were there.
DE:
Where was that again?
TK:
At Beirdneau.
DE:
OK; Beirdneau.
TK:
And I don’t know if you ever knew Tom Lyons? [He] taught English here at the
[Utah State] University for years.
DE:
Must have been before my time.
TK:
Well. Yeah, it was. He lived next door there [at Beirdneau]. They lived there the
year round. I don’t know what all you want me to tell about this. But I’ll tell you
an incident that I was involved in. They had three little boys. And we had six
children, some of them about the ages of those kids. Of course they were up there
by themselves so they would come over as soon as they heard the car come up to
our place, to have somebody to play with. Well, one time they came over and they
were turning handsprings and things. And they asked me if I could do that. And I
said, not any more. I said, “I practice yoga.” And they said, “Oh we’ve got an
Indian teaching us yoga comes up to the canyon.” I say, “Well, I tell you what,
next time I come up I’ll dress, everything on for that. But you got to be quiet
when I go.” Well I had a Chautauqua outfit. Years back those traveling operas and
things. It was a brocade and velvet outfit, you know; spangles all over it. I don’t
know all kinds of stuff. And I had a fez, and I had a pair of turned up boots, or
shoes, like the Turks. I had those on [Track 3] and so the kids caught on what I
was doing and they had all kinds of garbs to go with me up there. Well, when they
got up there, their lands were gone. I and told them there’s no use wasting that.
And in the front of our place there’s a bend going around in front of Malibu and
Guinavah, just a slight bend. Well, we . . . out on the end of that and it was open.
So the wild phlox was all in bloom. And we had our dog Gabby with us and we
picked phlox and put in his collar. And the kids had him, we’d go down to the
corner, a car came around we’d give them a peace sign and throw phlox out, you
know. [Chuckling] Two weeks later there was a rumor going around town that a
hippie family moved up Logan Canyon. But it was fun.
DE:
And you guys were the hippie family?
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�TK:
Yeah. But anyhow we used the place we had up there; we’d use it the year round.
We had a big fireplace in it and we had a wood/coal stove like that. Go up there in
the winter and build a fire in the stove and the fireplace, heat it up. The kids
would go snowshoeing or sliding up there. And have hot chocolate and things for
them to warm up with. But I don’t know. On up the canyon in the early days, we
used to cut Christmas trees up at the Sinks. And I’ll never forget that. Our two
oldest ones weren’t too old then, that we had. It was quite a lift, must be a half a
mile across the land there to get over to the trees. There was about three feet of
snow on the ground. I went over, I cut a tree and took, the two older ones wanted
to go with me. Well, by the time they got over there they were tired and they
wanted to be carried. And I had that Christmas tree and those two kids to get out
of there. Well, a friend at that time, Jim Cannon, worked for the Forestry. And he
arrived with a snowcat just as I was getting back off of that. And I said, “Why did
you have to wait until now to come up?” [Chuckling] He’d have got me out of
here. But that’s the only time I ever cut a tree up there. Never went back to get
another one.
DE:
Where was that again?
TK:
At the Sinks.
DE:
Okay.
TK:
That’s, you turn at Beaver to go up and you get about half way up the slope, it
was down in the Sinks. All down there, the low part.
DE:
So just past Beaver in those sinks there?
TK:
Yeah, uh hum. But you had to go clear across that to the trees. And that’s where
they issued permits to cut them. And we used to like to go up to Sunrise
Campground, up there and camp. We’d do that a lot. But it’s hard to get into any
of those places anymore. There’s everybody wanting in them.
DE:
Yeah. Now when you say “we” is that you and your family?
TK:
Yeah.
DE:
Your kids and wife?
TK:
Yeah. We did a lot of camping before, well even after we had our summer place
up there. We liked to go up the Wind Rivers. But anyhow back to Logan Canyon.
It had the most beautiful view [at Sunrise Campground] coming up, looking down
on the blue there at Bear Lake from the outpost there. But also I think a place they
forget about--there where they turn off to Temple Forks in Logan Canyon there’s
a privately owned place right there that looks like oh, a nice brick ranch house
built down there with a boat. There’s four acres or something in there. And there
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�had been a juniper place in there they called it Juniper Inn. You’d go up there and
eat and things. And it burned down. And it was a long time ago. Anyhow, I
inquired about that land up there because they have water rights, everything for it.
And at that time the forester, M.J. Roberts, he was looking for it too. Well, I
found the guy he was in the army over in Germany. [Track 4] And I contacted
him. He wanted $26,000 for that. I wished I bought it now.
DE:
So did M.J. buy it?
TK:
M.J. Roberts. That was the Chief Forester at that time. Everybody knows him,
he’s been around …
DE:
So did he end up buying the land?
TK:
No.
DE:
No.
TK:
I wouldn’t tell him who it was [that owned it]. [Chuckles] No, that’s private—
they built that ranch house up there on it. And they have water rights and
everything for it, on both sides of the river.
DE:
That’s a good setup.
TK:
Yeah. It was a good deal. But I don’t know. There’s been such a change in the
canyon itself because everybody’s in a hurry to get up to Beaver or Bear Lake in
the summer. And even Bear Lake, I remember that. Gad, when Ideal Beach was
the place to go, and we used that a lot too on weekends. But I don’t know if you
want to cover anything that was that far up.
DE:
That’s good; whatever you want to talk about with Bear Lake or Beaver or any of
that.
TK:
Well I can tell you a couple of good stories about it. My son was in the Civil Air
Patrol. And often in the summer they would sponsor members coming in from
other countries here, spend a week or two. And one year they had boys from
France. And we had them up the canyon; they used the cabin up there to stay in.
But I wanted to take them up to Paris, Idaho. [Chuckles] And we went up there
just to show them the town. As we came back the north beach was crowded, it
was on Sunday; people all over the beach. And they saw it. And they wanted to
know if we could go in there, turn in there. They wanted to, the minute we turned
in there they stripped clothes down, they were going swimming. And in those
jockey shorts, it, if they get wet, they may as well have been naked, you know.
Well that was long before we ever had them here. But then that’s what they had
on. Everybody was staring over at them. But they had a good time up there
swimming and all.
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�But then another time we had them at our place from Denmark. And everybody
said, “Oh we’ve got to have the return missionaries come up so they can,” I said,
“We don’t need that they speak English.” I said, “We don’t, but they speak more
than one language over there.” So anyhow, I don’t drink, but I thought they do
because the water’s bad there you know. And it’s gonna be hot. It was in July. So
I had a guy bring up a few cases of beer. And I had a little stream running down
by us that come out of the springs and I had them set them in there, cooling. So
when we got up there, why, they had, they had the interpreters with them. That is
the other people that was with them. And I asked them when they got up there if
they were thirsty. Oh yeah, they are. I said, well, over in that stream, I said there’s
cold drinks over there. Gad, [laughing] they did away with all of them. They were
all gone. But I don’t know this.
I made a few notes here… Oh another thing. We had a very dear friend who was
James Holy Eagle from Pine Ridge Reservation.
DE:
Now that was James
TK:
Holy Eagle
DE:
Holy Eagle
TK:
He used to come and spend summers here. And, oh, the kids they just worshiped
him. He was their grandfather as far as they were concerned. But he liked to
spend all the time he could up at our place there in the canyon. And he, what we
call dogwood, they call that red willow. And he’d cut off pieces of that and let it
kind of dry. Then he’d scrape the outer bark off and then the inner bark he’d
scrape and save. And when it dried he’d grind it all up and that’s what they call
kinnikinnick or tobacco. He’d mix a few little, real tobacco in with it. He had one
cigarette every night for visions up there out of that. But I thought that was
interesting to find out what we call dogwood they call red willow and made their
tobacco out of it. But [Track 5] he’d wander around up there. He loved being up
there and that. And the kids loved having him up there, too. I was a special guest
for the first Sun Dance they had that was legal back in ’72. And I was able to take
pictures of all that. There was a porcupine up there.
DE:
Now when you say the first Sun Dance what was that?
TK:
That’s a very holy dance for them. They put a pole or a tree in a circle and then
their, whoever they’re going to dance for, they make kind of a rope that they
weave that’s tied up to that. And then they’d pierce themselves here and put that
rope in it. And they’d dance and that until, four days, until they’d pull that out
finally. And for the, in order to have the whatever they’re dancing for was done.
But I don’t know so many things. There’s something. I’m getting off of…
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�DE:
You’re okay. You’ve mentioned your family a couple of times. What were their
names?
TK:
My family? [Wife was Patricia Kindred.] I had six children. I just lost my
daughter [Jennifer Treibe died 22 July 2008]. She lived right across the street; the
only one that still lives here. [She] had liver cancer. But anyhow, my oldest was
Timothy Kindred; then Rebecca Kindred and Kathleen Kindred and Patricia
Kindred, Jennifer Kindred and Lindy Kindred. Most of them had a, only one
graduated from over here at USU. But they all had an introduction over there.
Some stayed and some didn’t. My youngest one she’s, teaches graduate students
in Bloomington, Indiana, in theatre. In fact she was a designer for Shakespeare
Festival, not this year, but the two years before.
DE:
Just here in town?
TK:
Salt Lake. But anyhow, I was trying to think what else I could tell you about…
DE:
Well, really to get just a little more on you. During all this time what was your
profession, what did you do?
TK:
Well, I was a jack of all trades, I guess. Out here, for instance, I was hired as
consulting, management consulting person. And I traveled quite a lot. More for
corporate than I did from the Wasatch Division, because they had other interests
that they’d call me for. We had, oh; we had a place, for instance, in Georgia, St.
Mary’s, Georgia. And they were going to build a big booster down there. But it
didn’t work out. So they started building ammunition down there and there was an
explosion. So it killed several people. So they sent me down there to get it started
again. And then they were in the rug-backing business. And that wasn’t working.
So they sent me here, there and yonder. They had, oh they must have had 25
places that made ‘em. But it didn’t take long to find out what was the matter.
They weren’t organized. But I spent time down at Virginia – at Waynesboro. That
was for the one that I, the main one was on it. And I don’t know. Then I spent a
year in Chicago when the wind tunnel at Calahoma [?], the Air Force. Somebody
left a ladder in there and they turned it on and destroyed it. They had to rebuild it.
And part of it was in Chicago. They weren’t building it very fast so I spent a year
commuting in there. But that was mainly what I was sent. But since I’ve retired
it’s been oh, history, local. [Track 6]
In fact here I think it was I don’t know [19]’96 -’97, I belonged to the Mormon
History Association. And they established the Thomas Caine Award and I got that
the first year they issued it. That’s for a non-Mormon doing Mormon history.
DE:
Now what is the Thomas Caine Award for?
TK:
The Thomas Caine? I collected all this data, local data and maintained it. I don’t
know they’d send people from everywhere here for information; anywhere in the
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�Valley here practically. Elaine Thatcher, her father was a really good friend of
mine – Ted Thatcher. And his mother was a very dear friend of mine: Hannah
Thatcher; Frank Thatcher’s wife. But she was a 106 years old when she died. She
lived a good long life.
DE:
And Elaine told me (Elaine Thatcher is one of the people who is over the project)
she said that you were quite a historian; that you had done a good deal of local
history work.
TK:
Well, her grandmother was not Mormon, and her grandmother’s father John oh…
I’m pushing 90 and I have, I don’t get instant recall of names. What was his last
name? Anyhow he was director of music. He came from Wales. He was director
of music out here in Benson Ward for different wards out there. Went to church
there all the time; but never joined the church.1 And he was the first Postmaster
out there. And his, he had to make a name for it. Wasn’t Benson then; he called it
King. And I have postcards from there that were never used. King, Utah.
DE:
Before it was called Benson it was called King?
TK:
King. Uh hum. Yeah. But I don’t know. I was trying to just think of other things
that maybe…
DE:
Some of the things that we’re looking into are the land use policies. The way the
canyon has been used. What are some of your views on land use policies?
TK:
Well, they put a stop on issuing any permits for homes up there. And they would
like to get rid of all of them. But that’s going to be a hard thing to do. I know they
had a committee a number of years ago do a massive study on that. And there
were some 98,000 summer homes on government land [all over the country]. And
they recommended that Forestry sell that land to the people that owned the places
and get out of the business. Don’t do it anymore.
Well, poor old M.J. Roberts, he had to call a meeting on that, you know. And I
kept asking when he was going to get to that part. And finally he was getting
angry about me asking him. He didn’t want to get it. He said, “You couldn’t
afford to buy it.” He said, “We want $3,000 an acre.” I said, “I’ll give you a check
right now for it.” [Laughing]
But they never did do it. They never sold them. They still lease the land. And it’s
high now, but the lease is not as high as the areas put on taxes, things like that,
you know, and insurance for up there. And I don’t know the taxes have gone skyhigh. There was hardly any taxes on those places [in earlier times]. They never
1
Note from Elaine Thatcher: Hannah Mathews Thatcher was 105 when she died in 1990. Her father, John
Mathews, was choirmaster for St. Johns Episcopal Church in Logan. He would walk to Logan from Benson
to serve in this capacity. I don’t think he ever attended the LDS Church unless it was for a wedding or
funeral.
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�did anything for them. But now the county, I think, on just a little place up there,
be $600-$700 a year on it. And they used to let students live there the year-round.
But not anymore; they got to be out of there, they close it.
DE:
You mentioned earlier some of the ways that you’ve noticed the way people use
the canyon has changed. [Track 7] You said it used to be a lot slower, and now
everybody’s in a rush to get to Beaver or to Bear Lake. Can you talk a little bit
more about that? How the way people use the canyon has changed in your life.
TK:
Well, yes. It used to, you know, you drove slowly up there because it was a
narrow road. And you could enjoy a trip up there. You weren’t hanging on to the
steering wheel wondering who’s gonna hit you next, you know, or something. But
now it’s a speedway going up there. Well, it’s getting to be the same way going
from Logan to Preston since they widened that. That’s 60 miles an hour now and
they go 70-75-80 on it. But it used to be an enjoyable trip to go up there. But I
don’t know; I don’t like it now. I go up to the Emigration Canyon going from
Preston over. Because it’s a bad road there, it’s narrow yet. You can go through
there and really enjoy it, going through, enjoy the whole place. And then there’s
Ricks Springs up there. I don’t think it’s even open anymore.2
DE:
Ricks Springs?
TK:
Uh hum. Everybody’d always stop there and get a drink. But I guess it was
dangerous to pull off there now. Or maybe it didn’t have no parking there after
widening it. I don’t know.
DE:
So it seems like widening, the widening of the roads and the making of the speed
limits faster has changed things a lot.
TK:
Yeah. The whole bit. And they had to widen the bridges. Then there’s that one
bridge up used, you kind of worried about even crossing it when somebody’s
coming the other way, ‘cause it was just real narrow.
DE:
And where was this bridge at?
TK:
Oh it’s after you . . . it’s quite a ways up there. I’m trying to think what the, it’s
when you’re going up high and there’s a deep canyon all around there. In fact a
fellow pushed a car off with his wife in it up there.
DE:
When was this?
TK:
Oh, a long time ago. Yeah. I think he went to prison for it. Because that must be a
150 feet down.
2
Note from Elaine Thatcher: As of this writing (Dec. 18, 2008), Ricks Spring in Logan Canyon is still open
and has pull-out areas for cars, interpretive signage, and a boardwalk for people to walk on going up to the
pool.
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�DE:
Now was this back when the bridge was narrow?
TK:
Uh hum. Yep.
DE:
So in dealing with the land use and the policies governing land use, have you, did
you personally have any hand it those? In creating policies? Or was there ever
something that you lobbied for?
TK:
No. The things that you used to argue about. They came up one time, for instance,
at me. I kept the lawn nice, because we had small children. And you have snakes
up there, you know. We’d have a rattler every once in awhile out there go across.
But I kept in down and one of the rangers told me I shouldn’t do that I ought to let
the grass grow. And I said well I’m not going to do it. I didn’t, either, because I
didn’t want my kids running out there to play you know, and stepping on a rattler
and get bit; because you never knew for sure.
But that brings up something else, you know, that… The students used that the
year round. They’d stay there the year round. And there was a couple of them.
One of them still lives over here in Logan. But he was kind of a real
environmentalist. And in fact he was against the North Slope pipeline in Alaska
coming down. But after we had the shutdown on oil coming in here for a short
period a long time ago. Well, he went to Alaska and he did write ups on the
pipeline. And he made quite a lot of money doing them. And he came back here
and he opened his own business here. I often have thought of him. He made all
the money writing all these things, you know. But I think he was hurrying them
up to get oil in, too. But they’d [Track 8] park in my lower parking and it’d be
muddy and they’d made ruts in there. So I called them one day, the three of them
up there and I said, you guys bring your rakes over here and clean up the mess
you left on my parking. They says, like what? And I said, “You’re all
environmentalists,” and I said “Look what you did down here.” I said, “You made
these deep ruts.” [Chuckles] But those same guys, I get, they used to come up and
we’d have, I had a fire pit and we’d do pit barbeques up there.
That’s something else I did too. When they used to have the Western Writers
Conferences here, I always knew who was coming and I’d do a pit barbeque up at
our place for the ones who were going to take part in it. Not the audience, but the
ones that were, and I met all these people, and I’d always have their book so they
could sign them. But I don’t know. They’re wonderful people, you know. The
only one I didn’t like, well, I guess he was alright. But he was different, was
Edward Abby.
DE:
Edward Abby?
TK:
Yeah. He was kind of foul-mouthed. But he’d have a couple of drinks, and start
in. But I don’t know. Wallace Stegner, he was a wonderful person. He just, they
were over to the house here, he and his wife two different times to visit.
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�But also this, the same ones, the environmentalists that I was telling you about,
one winter we went up to Mammoth Springs in Yellowstone and stayed up there
with a project officer and then the next day went over to, oh, what’s the, oh, that’s
awful when you can’t recall right quick. Anyhow it’s Windows Flat in the valley.
And we went over there and snowshoed in to get pictures of wildlife in there. Oh,
it was a beautiful thing. But they were worried about me. I was the oldest one of
them and they were afraid I was going to fall. But I made it. And oh, shoot. But
anyhow, we had lots of experiences like that. I feel I’ve had a good life. You
know, getting involved in all these things.
DE:
Had a lot of activities and things go on.
TK:
Well, in the early days. Now this is something else I guess I could tell you about.
We were very active with the foreign students. And back in the early 60s up ‘til
early 70s they had several thousand here.
DE:
The foreign students?
TK:
Uh hum. And a lot of them were from Iran, Iraq, and places like that. Arabia,
Egypt. But the main ones that came was from South America. And places that
don’t like us like Venezuela. The ones that turned on us, you know. But we had
lots of students. They used to call this house the Latin American Embassy. But
anyway some students were leaving to go home then they would bring students
coming in over and introduce them. So it was constant turnover coming in. But
we’d take them up the canyon. I don’t know, have barbeque and stuff up there.
And entertain them. But I don’t know. Do you have more things there that you
could . . .?
DE:
A couple of things that I would like a little, if you can elaborate a little bit more
on, with the writers project; when the writers came in. Can you tell us a little bit
more about that?
TK:
Well, yes, it was a fabulous thing to me. They had quite a large attendance for
that. And, of course, the big names of all of them that came in. I know our son’s
name was Timothy Shane. And Frank, [Track 9] I’m trying to think of his last
name just off hand. That wrote the movie, the story Shane. [A.B. Guthrie wrote
the screenplay for Shane.] He was here. And when he found out our son’s name
was Shane he wrote a whole page in the book and gave to him. About Shane and
all. But oh, Guthrie, and here a while back, I can’t get the names, I can’t recall
them real quick for you. But those, some of those people still come for other
occasions here.
Like when they have the Leonard Arrington lectures. Every once in awhile I’d go
and here’s an old face comes in. And there’s one from Yale, he was here a while
back and I went down to talk to him. We had a nice visit there for a while.
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�Because he had the old memories of having a pit barbeque. He’d never seen one
before. But it’s been a wonderful life here you know, and stuff.
DE:
Are there any ways you can think of that the writers project, and having those
writers come in and share that Logan Canyon, and experience Logan Canyon, that
affected the development of Logan Canyon? Or the land use of Logan Canyon?
TK:
Well, we used to use up all the parking spaces up there at Beirdneau when we had
these. But I think the people enjoyed them. Like Tom Lyons lived right there, he
was from the University. And I don’t know but Ken Brewer. Ken was a
participant in that. And then there was another one that died not long ago – Mark
Sorensen. [Omitted part of interview at this point.]
In fact there were other things they had, too. They used to have the
Lawman/Outlaw Group. And they had all the western stuff. It used to all be
published here. But they’d just last so long; it was almost like the Heritage Farm
out here. Most of that was up on the campus and they moved it all out there now.
But I was involved in that when they first started out there. The first manager was
from here, Sven Johnson [Johansen?]. But I think they’re doing a better thing out
of it now, over there.
DE:
That’s the Heritage … Was it the heritage ranch you’re talking about?
TK:
Farm
DE:
The Heritage Farm.
TK:
Yeah. Out there by Wellsville. Yeah. [Ronald V. Jensen Historical Farm]
DE:
What can you tell me about Austin Fife?
TK:
Austin Fife. He was a real good friend. He and his wife used to come over every
once in awhile. And they always had these wonderful stories.
There’s something that I never did see documented that over here in Wellsville
they had, one of the families that came in from the east brought slaves with them.
And when the slaves were released they took their name of Brad what, it will
come to me in a minute. Anyhow one of them was Pokey. And over here in Mt.
Sterling he squatted on a piece of land. And they had a quarry in there. And a lot
of the rock that went into these Wellsville homes [Track 10] came out of that
quarry. And they have the cemetery over there. For the centennial I got people out
of range science to come and clean that up, because there’s still a lot of people
buried there. And when I, they put something in the paper about it. And I said that
I was worried about two places there. Said I was wondering if there had been
slaves that were buried there. Because they had sunk in; and Wilma Hall over in
Wellsville, she’s the historian for there. She called me up and she says, “What do
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�you know that I don’t know?” [Chuckles] That was under their control then. I
said, “I don’t.” I said, “But they didn’t make tombstones for them when they
died.” I knew that. And I said, “I’m trying to also get more information on it.” But
I said, “Most of them migrated to Salt Lake.” And I said “I have the phone
numbers of them.” But how do you call and ask “Are you black or are you
white?” To talk to them. So I said I haven’t done it. But I don’t know. There’s so
many things that they have up there.
Now Malibu, right across from where Malibu is the area called Malibu. There
used to be a large, oh, dance hall built in there. And later became a scout place.
And then finally they just tore it down, got it out of there. Then down where the
Stokes Center is. That was originally a scout place. And then the Legions had it
for a long time.
DE:
The who?
TK:
The American Legion.
DE:
American Legion.
TK:
Uh hum. And now, of course, it was kind of abandoned because the Legion was,
well, ‘cause they were dying off from World War I and II. That was the day. Not
going to be around too long.
DE:
Is there anything that you could tell me about Hardware Ranch?
TK:
Yeah. I love the Hardware Ranch up there. In fact, there’s a book on it called
Twenty Eight Years on the Anderson Ranch by Leon Anderson. And a number
of years ago when they had a young ranger up there, and they wanted to start
having an elk festival. So I called all over to find out who could give me
authorization to republish that book. And I found Leon’s son in Hawaii and he
gave me permission to publish a thousand of them. And we printed them for $3.00
apiece; we were selling them for $10 using the money for that up there to help
with that. And when I first came here the Legion in the wintertime had a trailer
that they’d park at the entrance up there and they sold hot chocolate and coffee
and hot dogs and hamburgers and stuff to people. Used to be a lot of people went
up there in the winter. And I don’t know that’s the way they raised funds for it.
But then the first year that they had this elk festival.
DE:
What festival was that?
TK:
Elk Festival
DE:
The Elk Festival
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�TK:
Yeah. Dan Christensen is the Superintendent up there. And he’s doing a lot of
new things. What’s his . . . Thad Box.
DE:
Thad Box
TK:
Yeah. He was the first speaker up there. I like him. He’s really a neat fellow. Even
at his house, the house he lives in there on Center Street. I had a call from Barbara
Howell one time, wanted to know if I’d come over and tell her about some light
fixtures that she had. And I went over and they were art deco style. And she was
showing them to me and wanted to know what they were worth. And I told her.
Well, then I was on the committee for places that we give awards to for
maintaining. [Track 11] And Thad’s house came up and we went down to take a
look at the house, and I looked at it and I said, “Oh, those fixtures, you got those
from Barbara Howell.” And Thad says, “You’re the culprit that told her what they
were worth.” [Laughing] But I get involved in a lot of stuff like that. I don’t
know.
But anyhow, I was afraid they were going to try to do away with Hardware
Ranch, maybe sell it or something. And so I’ve encouraged Dan to do everything
he can, you know. He’s doing a lot of new things up there now. And I know this
one time, the first year they had the festival later. They had an all day, oh, kits that
they got from Lowe’s and the Home Depot to make bird houses and things. And I
stacked up a whole bunch of bird seed. And the kids would put those together up
there for something to do, you know. And they began to draw a pretty good crowd
up there to that. And I loved driving up. But that’s another canyon where it’s all
privately owned up there now. Yeah, when I came here you could walk anywhere
you wanted to you know. It was privately owned then, but people didn’t, there
was just one place up there, the Adams Homestead.
DE:
The Adams Homestead?
TK:
Uh huh. It’s still there too. In fact, it’s still in the Adams family. He was the
principal here at the high school. And they homesteaded up there, and I think this
is the third generation now, has it up there. The house is still there and all. But it’s
a, I don’t know, it’s a—when I used to come over the summit up here and look
down I could tell every little town because there was just a block or two of lights.
Now the whole valley’s lit up. Everything, you know, just…
You know I gave, this is off the subject, but, I gave . . . after my wife passed away
I was going through things she had. And I had two years of newspapers bound
like they used in the newspaper office. And I thought they ought to be over where
somebody could use them, because the age of them and all. And I took them over
to Ann Butters and gave them to her.
DE:
Who’s Ann Butters? [USU Special Collections’ Western and Mormon Americana
Curator]
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�TK:
She was over Special Collections.
DE:
Okay.
TK:
At that time. Anyhow, she was amazed because they were from, there was a
Boston Record it was 1818 and 1819. And it was still very legible. No
deterioration on them. But they had all the stuff in there about slave ships coming
in, and missionaries going off from a hundred different churches. Everybody was
sparked with religion then. But then I don’t know, just other things I gave them. I
had, let’s see, Campbell. Yeah, Thomas Campbell and his wife they were the first
Presbyterian ministers up at Mendon. And it’s their wedding pictures, oh, that
high and that wide, you know. It was left here when they left. I don’t know if they
left in a hurry or what. And this house next door to me, it used to be the Methodist
Church here.
DE:
And now it’s a home.
TK:
Yep. I’m getting off the canyon for you.
DE:
I noticed when I was walking up to your house. You have a lovely house here.
You’ve got this great old wood burning stove behind you that we talked about
earlier.
TK:
Yeah. That came out of Park Valley [Utah, in Box Elder County].
DE:
Oh did it? Out of Park Valley?
TK:
Uh hum.
DE:
It’s a beautiful old wood burning stove.
TK:
It’s usable. I keep that wood out there. When I’m sitting here in the evenings, I
put a stick or two of wood in there and light it. And then it’s a [Track 12]
different warmth and that. And then the kids, I have two grandchildren who live
across the street. They’re 19 and 22. They like to go camping, so they come over
and swipe a few to take with them for fires when they’re up camping.
DE:
Well, I guess probably one of my last questions for you with talking about, you
know, you have this very strong connection with Logan Canyon, with the
outdoors and in working with the writer’s project, and, you know, you had some
great experiences with that. Was there any piece of literature, any piece of writing
that really affected your connection to the land?
TK:
A writing of it?
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�DE:
TK:
Uh hum. Well…
Well, like Old Ephraim. That story lives on and on. I can tell you a story about
that too. Scott Bushman, one of the Rangers…
DE:
Uh hum, Forest Rangers
TK:
Forest Rangers. He wanted to fix up for the centennial an exhibit there in the
rangers shop. And he wanted to get use of the Old Ephraim’s skull that they had
at the University [in Special Collections, on permanent loan from the
Smithsonian].
DE:
Uh huh.
TK:
This is bad. I told, I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what,” I said. “That really belongs to
the Smithsonian. But, I said, they let the University use it here. And I said you
call, I had the Director of Government Affairs for the Smithsonian, she’s a friend
of mine.” I told him, call her. And I said, “She’d give you permission.” He called
her and she said, “Old Ephraim’s skull. We’ve been trying to find out where it’s
at.” [Laughing] Anyhow, he told her who told her to call. And so she gave him
permission to use it. But that was funny you know that they were upset that they
didn’t know where it was. But that’s records I guess.
DE:
Now what’s the story behind the Old Ephraim.
[For information on Old Ephraim go to USU Special Collections digital collection
at http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/Ephraim]
TK:
Well, supposedly, this fellow was almost attacked, and he’d been watching for
him because he knew he was big. And he came in as a sheep herder type. And I
don’t know they give that lecture here all the time. They love to give that to scout
troops and all, you know, the ones that read it. But he was buried and was over
nine feet tall, on it. But, I don’t know, it gets overused maybe.
But I think of Yellowstone. I don’t like Yellowstone anymore, because, when I
used to go up there, you could stop, the bears never bothered you. They’d come
right up and you’d give them something, you know. I was more concerned about
moose those days than I was the bears; because the bears were smart. They could
get a handout. But now there’s more foreign people up there than there are United
States citizens. And, besides its speed [limits] changed, widened the highways.
And now around Old Faithful, you used to set up fairly close and now it’s all
gravel; a great big area that’s graveled.
DE:
Well, are there any last stories that come to mind that you’d like to share?
TK:
Well, I got lots of stories, but they’re not all about the canyon.
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�DE:
[Laughing] Well, we’ll narrow it down to any last stories about the canyon.
TK:
Yep. I don’t know. When they, when this American Heritage group were meeting
out at the farm out here for a long time. And I was involved in that. But then they
got to the point where, well, in four months I’ll be 90 years old. That’s getting
pretty awkward you know, to try to keep up with the younger people in this stuff.
And I drive, but I don’t like to drive at night. I’m just apprehensive. I don’t want
to cause an accident. But I was involved out there and I loved it. In fact I was
[Track 13] involved with the whole thing out there when it first started. I helped
to get it going. I used to furnish stuff for the June wedding; things that you never
see around there anymore. You know what bone dishes are?
DE:
Bone dishes? Uh uh.
TK:
Well there like a, they’re shaped, there’s some over there in that thing. But, they
sit beside your plate. And when you ate chicken you put the bones over there.
DE:
So it’s kind of like almost banana shaped dish that you would put the bones in.
TK:
Yeah. Well those and butter pads and knife rests. Two knobs with a thing. They
had a plate so the knife wouldn’t get on the tablecloth. Stuff like salt cellars with
little dips, for salt shakers and things like that. I’d take them out there and special
types of linens and things clear back then. But it’s getting to where it’s just too
much effort to do it anymore. I have Indian things though. I was telling you Holy
Eagle used to come here.
DE:
And what was Holy Eagle again?
TK:
James Holy Eagle. He’d spend a full summer and he’d have his mail sent here.
And he’d go up to the post office every afternoon to get the mail. The kids would
go with him. Everybody in town knew him, him being here all summer. But
they’d stop at the, had a drug store up there then, on the way back and get a candy
bar or ice cream or something for each one of them. Well this one day it was
raining, the kids said it’s time to go get the mail. And he said, No we’ll wait till
2:00 and it will quit raining. Well, 2:00 came and it quit raining. So he went and
got the mail and came back and it started raining again. Well, they figured Holy
Eagle could do anything, anything at all. [Laughing]
But I don’t know, he went to school here one fall to the high school. And, well, it
was up at Sky View, before Mountain Crest was here. And they had him on the
stage for all the whole school and audience there in the auditorium. And he kept
going on and on and we had Indian kids in front of him and his big arms stretch
out and emphasizing everything. And it was so quiet in there and finally he was
going way past time. And I asked the principal, I said, you want me to stop him?
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�And he said, No, not on your life. He said, they’ve never been a piece where it’s
been this quiet. Let him keep right on.
DE:
Now do you remember was he Shoshone?
TK:
No, he was Sioux.
DE:
Sioux.
TK:
Hunkpapa-Minneconjou, a mixture. But he was a grandson of Sitting Bull.
DE:
Of Sitting Bull?
TK:
Yeah, very interesting. But I don’t know my daughter that passed away [Jennifer
Treibe]. She has an oil painting of him upstairs that she did. But I got lots of
pictures of him. He was mistaken a lot of times for the fellows in the movies. Has
long hair, white hair, chief. I had him down to the airport one time and this fellow
facing the other side from us. I told Jim, I said, you better smile a little bit that
fellow’s going to take your picture. He was getting the camera way down there.
He was just gonna see it. After he took it I asked him, I said, “You wanna know
who he is?” He said, “Well, is he the one that’s in the movies?” And I said,
“Nope. It looks like him, but it’s not him.” But he was, he was in World War I
and he went to Parallel school in Pennsylvania when they sent the Indians out for,
but he was a wonderful person.
[Disk 2, Track 1]
DE:
Well, thank you very much.
TK:
Say what?
DE:
I said thank you very much. You’ve done a great job as a historian. Sounds like
you’ve done a lot of great work and lived a very wonderful, interesting life.
TK:
Well, I love this stuff. You know doing this. And, I don’t know, there’s times they
talk about maybe I ought to be in assisted living. And I said, No, I’m going to die
here, because everything that I love is right here.
DE:
You’ve got it all set up in the kitchen here.
TK:
Yep. And I’ve, I was in the throes of passing this stuff on to my daughter; because
she was my sidekick for this history and stuff. And we discovered she had liver
cancer. And so some of it’s over at her place and I’ve got boxes of stuff that I was
giving her. And I’m not sure what I’m going to do now with it. There was a
fellow here a while ago, Ray Anderson. He lives down at, just out of Cedar City.
And he grew up here in town. And typical, there was a big family. There were 13
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�children and they were poor. And they were kind of pushed around. But now he’s
writing stories about the town. And he comes to me for information. But there are
things, I don’t know if you want, if you’re interested in things that you won’t find
in a history book.
DE:
Oh sure.
TK:
Well, Hyrum had a dairy up at Hardware Ranch, in that area. In the early days it
was called United Order dairy: For butter, cheese and stuff. Well, I often
challenge people when they tell me Peter Maughan was the first settler here.
DE:
Peter Maughan?
TK:
Yeah. I say that’s not true. The first one here was Thomas Garr, when he drove
cattle up from Antelope Island: [LDS] Church cattle and their cattle into the
valley. And over in Millville they built the, there were three different ones. Each
one built a cabin over there. The other two left and went back, but he didn’t. He
stayed. And he never married, but he had an affair with a Shoshone. They call her
Susie. Now whether that’s the right one or not, nobody knows. Anyhow she had a
baby. And she left it with him. And he was known as Jack Garr: Indian Garr. And
he found out the church hadn’t filed on the land that the dairy was on. So he went
over and filed on it and made them move it. And that’s not in the history books.
They had to move it. And that became what is Anderson Ranch today, was
established by him. That’s where the church…
DE:
So Anderson Ranch was established by Garr.
TK:
Yeah. By Jack Garr
DE:
Jack Garr
TK:
And Jack would come in to Hyrum, he’d drive his wagon and horses in, you
know. And he’d proceed to get kind of drunk. And on the way back one time he
went to sleep and the horses got off to the side of the road and it turned over and it
killed him. And so there was a big lawsuit. There’s a schism in the Garr family
over this, that don’t believe that really Garr, you know Indian Garr. And the ones
that are. But Jack Garr’s grandson lives over in Millville and he’s an old fellow.
He’s well educated. His name is Jensen. Monroe Jensen. Nice old fellow. I go
over and visit with him every once in a while. But I’ve got the whole history of
the Garrs and the lawsuit and everything on it. But to me it’s interesting that its
history but they don’t want to document it: unwritten history.
So, and there’s a lot of that. There’s another one here, the reason I got interested
when I retired was [Track 2] I found photographs done by Hugo Peterson. And
he was born with one arm off at the elbow. But he was an artist and a, well, did
everything. Photographer. And anyhow, I was looking for pictures that he had
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�done: photos. And I got quite a few of them I found. I knew where he was born
over here, where he grew up. I called a fellow that lives in his house. And it was a
log house but it’s had additions to it and covered with sheeting now. Anyhow, I
asked who he bought the house from and he told me. He said, this fellow. And I
said, “Do you know how to get a hold of him? Oh, he’s an old man and he’s
dead. Well, I didn’t take that. Went to the Salt Lake phone book and I found this
Frank Boyd down there and I called him. And that was him. And he was a
grandson of Hugo Peterson. And he came up here. And I had a lot of information.
In fact I had their grandparents’ photos: big ones. And I just recently gave them to
his sister so they’d be in the family. But I don’t know; we became very good
friends over this. And I get a lot of data from them on it. But it’s just things I’ve
done.
In fact I can tell you the story of how I got the data on them. I had a fellow, there
was a Grover Christensen here in town. And I knew he had died and he had no
children. He had adopted a boy, the boy died before he did. And his wife had
died. And he married a May Nielson. And when May died, I wanted to find out
what she did with his documents and things. And they told me she gave them to a
woman across the street, a Mrs. Huron. So I went over to Mrs. Huron and asked
her if she had them and she said, “I have.” And she gave them to me. But she said,
“I wasn’t a relative. So I gave them to Mrs. Croshaw over in Brigham, a cousin.”
So I knew Mrs. Croshaw; So I went over to see her. And I said, “Do you have
those?” “Oh yes,” she says, “I’ve got all that stuff.” I said “Could I borrow some
to reproduce some of it.” And she goes and gets two great big cardboard boxes
and these two big pictures. And I said, “How much of that can I borrow?” She
said, “You can have the whole damn thing.” She said, “I didn’t like him.”
[Laughing] I waited for her to say something else. She said, “He’d come over here
and we had fruit farms.” Said, “He’d get cherries, he’d get apricots, he’d get
peaches.” And she said, “He’d never pay for them.” She said, he’d look me in the
eye and he’d say, “If you think you’re getting any of my money when I die, you
better think again.” And they were cousins.
But anyhow, here I have all that data, you know. And there’s a lot of stuff I’ve
never published, you know, on it. Because I’m telling things that maybe…
DE:
Is there any of the kind of unwritten history stuff about Logan Canyon that you
feel comfortable talking about?
TK:
Well, I don’t know whether there is or not. This fellow that just wrote the recent
book from National… well, teacher [referring to Michael Sweeney and his book
on Logan Canyon that was published by National Geographic: Last Unspoiled
Place: Exploring Utah's Logan Canyon.]
DE:
The journalism professor.
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�TK:
Yep. He was going to come over and talk to me about St. Anne’s. But then I think
he decided there was too much controversy over it. And he didn’t want to get that
in his book. But I have his book here. But I don’t know. I don’t know. Are you
LDS?
DE:
Uh, yeah.
TK:
Well, I’m Catholic. But I have to tell you. I told you I got the Caine Award for
that. But also they’re going to tear down the old stake house; it’s on the corner
here. It’s abandoned now. And a lot of people came to me about what could I do
about that. I said, “Nothing.” But I did do something. They were gonna tear it
down, [Track 3] but I took the initiative to call the Director of Temporal Affairs
in Salt Lake and asked if they would consider donating land to Hyrum for a little
children’s amusement park. And I think they’re going to do it. So it’s a two level
park. And it would just be ideal to get trees in there and have it; it’s not big
enough for too many things. But we don’t have any parks on the west side of
town. And so I called the Stake President and the Bishop and told them. They
were amazed that I talked to that level. I think they were afraid to.
But I figure if you talk to the head honcho. Just say, when we had foreign
students, Dr. Chase was president of the University then. I called him one day and
I said, “Dr. Chase, Eduardo Zapata, they’re not going to let him register for next
year.” And I said, “I don’t know why. I think you ought to know that his family in
Venezuela are the head of the Christian Democratic Party. And that could get
serious, not letting a son register here.” Oh, he said, “I can overrule the board on
that.”
So anyway I called him back later. And he says, “Well, I found out, he flunked
everything except one, you see, and he’s got an A in that.” And then I says, “Well
what was that?” And he said, “Soccer.” And I said, “Let him go home then. Tell
him to reregister as a tourist to come in and get things started again.”
And Eduardo went home and he called me from there. He was upset, he couldn’t
get back in. [Chuckling] But there’s so many. We had some high ranking people
here for things. I don’t know if you want to know. Maybe I shouldn’t tell those
things. The University and Venezuela were going to establish an irrigation college
in Caracas. And we were so heavily involved with foreign students from all over
there that they asked if we would work with Dr. Grant Reese and his wife for a
reception for the ones coming in. And I said, “yeah, that would be great,” you
know, so we were making all the arrangements and some of them arrived on
Sunday and they called up here about how did they get to Logan. And I said, “Just
cool your heels. You’re not supposed to be here until Monday.” Terrible, you
know. They were Ambassadors from the OAS. Well, they get here and they put
them up in the Metro Motel, it’s just the motel, the old one there on, up by
Frederico’s is it.
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�DE:
Okay. So kind of right as you’re heading out towards the canyon.
TK:
Yeah.
DE:
The hotel there.
TK:
Well, anyhow. They put them up there and they’re calling for room service. They
said, “We don’t have room service.” They wanted drinks, you know. And the next
thing, they go to the meeting and it’s in, we call it United Nations Room. It’s got a
horseshoe shaped table they all sat around. One of them was smoking a cigar, and
so he had to put it out. Another one wanted to know if they had coffee. I said,
“We don’t have coffee here.” Finally one of them gets up he says, “I thought this
was a joint venture thing.” He said, “I’m not staying here, if it’s one sided I’m
going home.” And oh, he broke the meeting up. Well they told, called Grant in
and told him, they said, “Don’t get involved in that reception, leave it alone.”
So I said “Well, we’ll have it anyhow.” And I called these Latin students and I
said, “We’re gonna have two bowls of punch.” I said, “Bring whatever you’ve
got.” Because they’d have rum and everything you know. And I said “We’ll have
sin and some: some with and some without it.” And then Sunday, what do you get
them? Pizza. No place open. So I order a whole bunch of pizzas there. We had
tables set up nice. But they had interpreters from Washington [Track 4] here.
And one of them came up to me and said, “Does the University always do things
like this? Oh no! I said, “This is very, very unusual.”[Laughing]
So anyhow they got straightened out and they went ahead with it and got it going.
And it turned out they put Hermano Scotegi [?] (he was from Caracas; just got a
doctorate degree at the University), and he was the first president of the college
down there – Joint Venture College. But I don’t know. It’s always been
interesting living here.
DE:
Very interesting. Well, this has been Darren Edwards interviewing Ted Kindred.
Here in his home in Hyrum, Utah. Thank you again for your time. The date is
August 13, 2008.
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�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/334</a>
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Ted Kindred interview, 13 August 2008, and transcription
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Mr. Kindred talks living in Logan Canyon at Beirdneau, his work with Thiokol as an engineer, his family activities up Logan Canyon, and his local history efforts.
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Kindred, Theodore J., 1918-
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Edwards, Darren
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Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Interviews
Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Family
Kindred, Theodore J., 1918---Career in Consulting
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Vacation homes--Utah--Logan Canyon
Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Camping--Utah--Logan Canyon
Sun dance--Utah--Logan Canyon
Holy Eagle, Chief, b. 1889
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon
Entertaining--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes
Western Writers' Conference
Congresses and conventions--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes
Hardware Ranch (Utah)--History
Old Ephraim (Bear)
American West Heritage Center (Wellsville, Utah)
Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)--History
Garr, Jack
Students, Foreign--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Hardware Ranch (Utah)
Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah)
Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Beirdneau (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Malibu (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Guinavah (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Sunrise Campground (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Ricks Spring (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Utah
United States
Hyrum (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1960-1969
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 7
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/d341243978d7f1d7086309a7471e26ef.mp3
1010d040329266f228f303f415248229
http://highway89.org/files/original/d0b6f76d4fe93ebd64933ed0299cc05a.pdf
cf2c2934900274c42333de1c0b255a39
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Dave Baumgartner
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Mr. Baumgartner’s home in Lewiston, Utah
5 May 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Brad Cole
Brad Cole
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross, 20 July 2008
Brad Cole; Randy Williams 15 March 2011
Brief Description of Contents: The interview contains information on the childhood, education
and the career of Dave Baumgartner as a forester, the various positions held within the Forest
Service and his views on management. There are many anecdotes from his personal experiences
in managing in the Logan Canyon and Logan District of the Forest Service, including his
attitudes regarding the road expansion up Logan Canyon and his idea to include land users when
making decisions.
Reference:
BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries)
DB = Dave Baumgartner
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcript. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 1: A]
BC:
Hi, this is Brad Cole, from Utah State University Special Collections and Archives. It’s
Monday, May 5th, 2008, and we’re visiting today with Dave Baumgartner on our Logan
Canyon Land Use and Management Oral History Project. Dave, I’m going to start off
where I usually do and ask you when and where you were born.
DB:
I was born July 29, 1942, in Salt Lake City.
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�BC:
Growing up in Salt Lake City, what are your memories of that?
DB:
A lot of open, abandon farm fields. My dad had a little tiny place with a big chicken coop
in the back that he raised a lot of chickens. Then on the rest of the property he grew
pansies for sale, and little junipers for landscaping. Behind our house from there all the
way to Great Salt Lake were just a few farm buildings and such, so we roamed that
country a lot.
BC:
And who were your parents?
DB:
My dad’s name is Heber Baumgartner. My mother’s maiden name was Allen. My
grandpa came from Switzerland when he was two years in 1898, I think it was. He and
his little family are my only relatives in Salt Lake City.
BC:
Really? Interesting. And then as far as you mentioned the landscape of Salt Lake, do you
think that affected your future?
DB:
You know, ever since I was a tiny kid, I can never remember wanting to be a policeman,
fly airplanes, or a fireman. I always wanted to be a forester from as far back as I can
remember. That’s what I wanted to be.
BC:
As a family, did you spend much time in the outdoors, growing up?
DB:
My grandpa was an arborist and a horticulturist. He was the primary caretaker for
Memory Grove, which is just off the hill from the State Capital, for most of his adult life
is where he worked, there. And so he was kind of a man of the outside anyway. And so I
remember growing up – we didn’t do what I would say is a ton of camping, but we did a
lot of it. And we usually fished a little bit wherever we went. We hiked a lot in Big
Cottonwood Canyon, up around Brighton, up to the lakes that are, you know, above
Brighton there. In those days it wasn’t really busy. [Laughing] Not like it is today!
BC:
Do you have any special memories of that period at all?
DB:
You know, not really. It was a happy childhood, we had a good time. Even from our
young ages we were allowed to go out in those fields. And we used to hike from my
house all the way out to the Salt Lake Airport. They had an old airplane dump out there
and we used to fly the old World War II torpedo bomber carcasses that they had laying
around in that place! [Laughing]
Then we hunted rabbits – I mean there wasn’t anything there, we could walk all the way
to Great Salt Lake if we wanted to, but we usually ended up by the Surplus Canal, fish for
carp and shot our .22s at whatever wiggled.
My folks weren’t extremely wealthy, so we had, you know our, I remember, coal stoves
and climbing into the house to get coal to put into the coal cook stove. That’s what heated
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�the house too, for a lot of years. But you know we were just typical kids. We played
football, we hiked a lot, broke our bones. Stuff like that.
BC:
You mentioned that you kind of had the goal to be a forester from a young age –
DB:
Yes.
BC:
When did you did you start pursuing that?
DB:
In high school there were classes that were optional, like botanies and zoologies, and
those kinds of things. You didn’t have to take those, but I took them all. I took all the
natural sciences that the high school offered. Which was basically those two, and
chemistry and a few things like that. I wasn’t very good with chemistry, but the other
stuff we were pretty good with.
BC:
And which high school was that?
DB:
I went to West High School in Salt Lake City.
BC:
And from there, where did you pursue your education after that?
DB:
Utah State University; graduated from there 1969.
BC:
And that was with a bachelor’s degree?
DB:
I had a bachelor’s degree in Forestry and also – it’s not a degree, but I took enough extra
classes that I also qualified as a watershed specialist or a hydrologist. I wasn’t an
engineer hydrologist, but a wildland hydrologist. When I actually got hired by the Forest
Service, I was hired as a watershed specialist, not as a forester. I spent three and a half
years on the Pike National Forest in Colorado as a watershed specialist. And then I knew
that wasn’t where my career wanted to go. I wanted to work on the districts and in the
woods, and not in the supervisor’s office. And so I spent my time there, you know,
getting acquainted with the Forest Service, but as soon as I had an opportunity to go out
to the district I took it.
So I lasted there about, a little over three years, and then I went to the Shoshone National
Forest in Wyoming. I spent in two places seven and a half years on that forest; three years
at Dubois and three and a half in Cody. And then from there we moved to the Sawtooth
in Idaho. And I actually spent seven and a half years there. And then I was the ranger
here in Logan until [19]’93, and then in ’93 I had to go to the regional office! [Laughing]
And I spent, I should put quotes around this, I spent from 1993 until year 2000, I retired
at the end of the year 2000. They were fun years in the regional office, they were
interesting years, but they were really discouraging years too as you saw the Forest
Service begin to unwind as to what it used to be. As to what it once was into what it was
becoming, and it was sad to see that change coming.
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�BC:
Maybe explain that a little more, like you know, what it once was and then what it—
DB:
Well, when I started with the Forest Service in 1969, through the late 60s and through the
early, well even through the 70s – and you’ll recall this – there were many people that
made and awfully lot of money writing books on how to run a successful company.
Those books were really good books. I was convinced when I read them that if I had an
opportunity to lead a unit, and I could use the characteristics that you read about in those
books, that we would be more successful than not. The Forest Service in those days was
just coming off the peak of its glory, so to speak. Those writers and people in that field of
management were selecting on an annual basis, you know, the ten top companies or
organizations in the country at that particular time, and the Forest Service, surprisingly
not, was one of them. It had a great spirit about itself; there was a great décor about the
people that worked there. It was a good job. We enjoyed being out in the woods working
with people and all those kinds of things.
I don’t know what changed, to be honest with you. We started to bring in more people
that were not necessarily forest, range kinds of folks. All the “-ologists”, the specialists
that began to come in there in the name of diversity – I wasn’t sure how to react with that,
but their attitude about work was different than the people that preceded them. There was
not as much of a tendency to work long hours. You know we averaged 9-10 hours a day
and never thought about overtime for a second. You’d leave early in the morning to go
someplace in the woods that required time to get there and it required time to get home,
so you’d get home at 8-9 at night, you know, and it was no big deal. But those employees
that started to come in, in my opinion, in that time -- they had a different ethic. I don’t
know that you could say they loved the woods -- it was a job in the field that they trained
for – but whether it was their perfect job or not, I can’t say. But it did begin to change the
Forest Service.
One of the traits of really good companies is that most of the operating money is at the
ground level, where the work’s done. And you saw a tendency in the Forest Service to
start to take more and more of their budget and put them into supervisor’s office, which
funded the specialists that all the supervisors thought they had to have. It was a time in
the mid-80s when all the forest planning stuff started to become the big emphasis and
they all thought they had to have specialists in order to write their forest plans.
What was interesting about the forest planning process, in my opinion, is that the
Congress never intended the Forest Service, when they passed that law, to get as intense
in forest planning as we got. There were times, I recall, when some of the planners
wanted us to actually document the number of times we were going to clean an outhouse,
that would be part of the forest plan to give us direction. I heard one staff officer say one
time, “The reason we’re doing that is because you rangers aren’t getting the job done!” In
other words, our campgrounds weren’t as clean as they should’ve been – and that part’s
true, but that wasn’t the way to fix it. And so our plan started to get deeper, and deeper
and deeper, and it took longer, and longer and longer to get them approved. It was
interesting to me that by the time the process got from the start until somebody approved
the plan at the end, many years had gone by and the issues had changed! And yet, we
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�were operating with a plan that now wasn’t up-to-date. And you know you just saw our
effectiveness being eroded away. People were spending way too much time in the office,
doing planning, in a plan that wasn’t going to be current when it actually went out on the
street. And so, I guess, a long story short is that it was wasted energy. The issues had
changed and the plan wasn’t necessarily addressing what the current issues needed
addressing. And yet, you were theoretically bound by the old plan when you needed to be
in a different box, and the plan kept pulling you back to this box because that’s what’s
written there – but time has changed and you needed to be over this one. And the
arguments of trying to get back and forth between what’s real and what was old. I think it
was wearing people out.
Another interesting thing about that is that, and this again is my opinion, a specialist,
when they came to work for the Forest Service (an “ologist” of some sort), with the
exception of wildlife biologists (many districts had wildlife biologists, the ended up being
an issue by themselves) the specialists in the supervisor’s office had no objectives. They
were supposed to advise us in the woods from time to time. You know, we were
supposed to go ask their opinion about cause and effect of some management activity we
were involved in, and they would write an opinion. Whether we agreed with it or not
didn’t matter, we did what needed to be done on the ground. It frustrated them greatly
because some of them were more swung to the environmentalist side of things and they
saw, timber activity for example, being very anti to the good of the forest. They were
often opposed or very restrictive in their comments in how we would go about doing that
business.
As a side note, despite the fact that we’d been managing timber stands since 1905, all of a
sudden, you know in the 1980s we couldn’t do it right anymore. With the caveat that it is
true that in the 1960s there was way too much emphasis in the Forest Service and in the
political processes for harvesting timber, that’s true. And many ranger districts and
people working on their districts did some really dumb things that generated justifiable
controversy, and justifiable reaction. The solution wasn’t the right solution. The way we
went and tied up our hands so much that you couldn’t manage at all. And many of the
“ologists” contributed to that confusion because of their backgrounds and where they
came from and so forth, they would’ve been really good Park Service employees because
that’s what the Park Service does. But that wasn’t the mission of the Forest Service, by
law it wasn’t their mission. It got to the point where it was just a big argument to get
things done. The effectiveness of the organization, I think you could plot an accurate
curve that shows the Forest Service effectiveness declining as a result of those years.
To this very day I’m not convinced, well I am convinced the Forest Service is just
another government bureaucracy now, it has lost the prestige and the accuracy and the
wisdom that it once had. Now we’re managing by a book instead – forest management is
not an exact science, there has to be a lot of intuition and lot of creative thought that goes
into managing those woods. When you try to do it from a book it’s not nearly as
effective. I listen to a lot of my old compadres that are still working with the Forest
Service and I know it’s not the same, and I don’t know that they’re as happy as we once
were. It seems to be a struggle.
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�Even in the fire organization we used to escape to fires – what a wonderful experience
that was! Not that the forest was burning, that’s not the point; but you had one objective,
it didn’t matter what you got paid, what your salary was, what your position in the Forest
Service was – you went away to a fire and you played a role and you focused on an
objective. I might be supervising – at the time I might have been a GS9 [US Federal
General Schedule (GS) Classification System], supervising GS13s – you know, the
bosses! And I’m their boss on a fire, kind of thing. But nobody cared. That was never an
issue! You never had to get out of your chair because some GS13 walked into the room,
for example. But that does happen in some agencies, but it never happened in the fire
organization. You just went, you did your duty, you put the fire out and you went home
feeling good about it. But now they’ve got so many rules that those guys have to pay
attention to, and so many checkmarks on a form they have to put on, you know, before
they can proceed anywhere. They look at you and they say, “It’s just not fun. It’s just not
working.” There are just too many handcuffs put on people now days. Anyway.
BC:
You mentioned you were the district ranger in Logan. What exactly is a district ranger?
DB:
This is what made the Forest Service the organization it was. World class organizations,
according to the people that study this, only have seven or less line positions -- the Forest
Service had four! World class and then some: a chief, a regional forester, forest
supervisor, and a district ranger. The district ranger was the number four position in that
organizational scheme. Everyone else who worked for the Forest Service, with the
exception of the research branch, (in my day – it’s different now – but in my day) worked
for one of those four positions.
Generally speaking, at the National Headquarters there was the National Forest System
(and that’s the side I worked for), then there was a research part that you know, that was
an organization separate from the National Forest organization. Then there was a state
and private organization that dealt with the laws and what have you that dealt with the
government’s assistance to states in forestry kinds of issues. Those three basic
organizations had their own organizations. So we’ll just push those two over to the side
(the state and private and the research guys, because that’s not what I was) and I worked
for the National Forest system side of things, and there was only four people in the chain
of command. And everybody else on that side worked for one of those four people. So it
was decentralized. As a district ranger I actually had more authority than the
superintendent of Yellowstone National Park, in the context that they could not sign
environmental documents in the days I worked around the Park. They had to go to their
next level to get approval for all of this stuff. You’d ask the ranger, I could sign those
documents up to you know, any environmental analysis that was done on a district the
ranger had the authority to sign those in those days (it may have changed now today, I
haven’t kept track of it), but in those days you know. We wrote the environmental
statements and the supervisor would sign those. We had a lot of authority to do the
business and it was a very effective way to do business.
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�So the district ranger’s responsibility is to, the National Forest system is organized into
forests, of course -- the regions forests and districts. There are nine regions (although we
have a number ten because that’s what Alaska is but there’s a region missing in there – I
don’t think there’s a region seven – anyway, doesn’t matter). The regions then are
organized into National Forests. Region four regional office is in Ogden, we don’t need
to count them, but I think there’s about 16 or so without counting them up, National
Forests attached to that regional office: in Utah, Idaho, western Montana and Nevada.
That’s the area of the region. Then the forests are usually organized into, depending on
the forest, into four, five or six ranger districts. Each ranger district then has the
responsibility of management on – anywhere between 250,000 acres – I was on one
district where the district area was a half a million acres. The ranger has the responsibility
of the activities that take place on that district. Usually has, depending again on the
district size, Logan had three assistant positions: a clerk, an assistant clerk, and some
long-term but temporary positions. I think we had three of those. Then in the summer the
workforce could expand, depending on what kind of budget was available to 30, 40, 50,
60, 70, 80 seasonals that would come on and work during the summertime. We had the
responsibility of all of that; their welfare, you know, their work assignments, the
management planning that took place on the district. We did that. The Logan budget ran
anywhere between, 600 to $900,000.
BC:
Wow.
DB:
Depending on the year. So you’re responsible for the budget and the money, and how it’s
spent and all the physical integrity of all of that sort of thing. If somebody makes a
mistake it’s always the ranger’s fault, that sort of thing.
BC:
[Laughing] When you started in Logan, what year was that?
DB:
I came here in 1984 as the ranger.
BC:
Okay. And what was the condition of the forest when you arrived?
DB:
I followed a dear old man, by the name of MJ Roberts, who had been the ranger here at
Logan for nearly 20 years. MJ grew up in a period when the Forest Service was doing
some interesting political things that, in hind sight, was probably not the wisest thing for
us to do. So it would be easy to criticize that generation for the work that they did, but
they did a good job based on the circumstances that they [had] to deal with in those days.
The problem was what they left was hard. For example, during the 1960s and 70s,
especially in the 1960s – and this carried over into the 70s as well – Congress was not
funding the Forest Service as well as they had in the past. The Forest Service’s influence
in Congress wasn’t as strong as it had been previous to that, and some of the funds were
getting a little short. Congress had different things in mind: timber was one of them,
watershed was one of them, and recreation wasn’t one of them. So as a strategy we
decided that we wouldn’t put as much emphasis on our campgrounds either. We would
let them just go downhill a little bit, and then Congress would recognize they needed to
put more money there, and therefore they would! But they didn’t. So by 1984 when I
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�came, the condition of our campgrounds was, they were in pretty bad shape. Our roads
were in pretty bad shape; our trails were in bad shape. We were just out doing things, but
we weren’t accomplishing a lot. My recreation crews, for example, I discovered – they
would go to a campground and they would paint one table, then they would drive 20
miles to another campground and paint one table! We were making no progress and we
were going basically downhill on those things. So when MJ finally retired and I had an
opportunity to come here, I actually made a promise I would not say anything for six
months, until I knew that my premonitions were accurate, and they were.
So the issues that we had, especially in Logan Canyon, was the condition of our
campgrounds and picnic grounds; the condition of our roads; the condition of our trails
were a big concern; off-road vehicle traffic. We were getting about 12 new miles of
unauthorized, new trails and roads created every year just by the off-road vehicle traffic.
They were going into places they shouldn’t be going to, we had trails starting up all the
ridges and up all the canyons that didn’t have roads in them. That was a big concern. And
then in Logan Canyon itself we had a horrendous litter problem. I mean it was almost
embarrassing to drive up the canyon sometimes and see all the messes that the general
public had to look at. It was our responsibility, theoretically, to keep things neat and
clean, and we weren’t doing a very good job with that.
During my whole time on the district, those five issues drove most of what we were
doing, with the exception of one other area that we can talk about later. The other area
involved the whole district and not just Logan Canyon. And so with a limited budget and
limited people, the great dilemma was, “how are you going to make progress in all of
those areas?” That was the great dilemma. Another issue that raised its head, during my
tenure there anyway was Logan Canyon highway. That wasn’t an issue when I first
started, but right in the middle they decided they wanted to improve the highway for
another section. After having put one phase in and then lost on the second phase, I think
is the way the history goes, the environmentalists took them to court and the court shut
the state down. They backed away from trying to improve the canyon. And then came
back while I was there with yet another proposal that got very, very controversial for
awhile. Really for some silly reasons – it didn’t have to get that way. We as government
workers sometimes don’t make the wisest decisions all the time.
So anyway, that’s what we were dealing with -- those five things. I was there for eight
and a half years and those issues didn’t change.
BC:
What role did the Forest Service play in the Logan Canyon, the road highway?
DB:
Well, probably more than we should have could have or legally could have because the
easement for the highway obviously was under the control of the state of Utah and the
Federal Highway Administration. But technically once you got outside of the right of
way, any impacts to Logan Canyon was an issue to us. We felt very strongly that we
should have some input into the plan to improve the highway.
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�At the beginning I found out that UDOT was going to propose some improvements to the
canyon from the newspaper – they didn’t even call us to tell us. And so they left notice of
a meeting, I went to the meeting; I listened to what they were trying to do. When they
were finished I walked up to the highway engineer who was a nice, cooperative fellow,
and I said to him – his name was Lynn Zollinger – and I said, “Lynn, you’re talking about
writing an environmental impact statement on a highway that you only propose to replace
three bridges.” (The bridge at Right Hand Fork had deteriorated to the point where they
needed to replace it; the next bridge up was too narrow; and then the big bridge at the
dugway – I mean if you try to pass a semi truck coming this way, if you remember, and
you were not too tight against the edge, mirrors could actually click past each other, it
was that tight.) And they wanted to write an environmental impact statement and I said to
them, “Why? The bridges are in place, they have to have maintenance. If that’s all you’re
proposing, why are you going to spend $500,000 and write an environmental impact
statement on something that doesn’t matter?” He says, “What do you mean?” And I said,
“You could write an environmental assessment for less than $10,000, and replace those
bridges.” And he blinked a little bit and said, “Really? I’ll even volunteer to write them
for you.”
So they went back to the Federal Highway Administration, and what an interesting
experience that was! The Federal Highway Administration, their regional office for this
area was in Salt Lake City, and they said to UDOT, “No, by golly! You said that this
program was controversial, it’s controversial and you’ve got to write an impact
statement!” So I went down there one time and I said to the engineer down there, I said,
“If all they’re going to do is replace bridges you don’t need to spend $500,000 of the
taxpayer’s money writing a document that doesn’t matter.” And the guy turned to me and
he said, “What right does a forester have telling an engineer how to do his job?”
[Laughing] And I said to him, “I’m not trying to do that, I’m just trying to save you some
time, energy and money.” He says, “No. The state said it was controversial, it is
controversial, therefore, and they’re going to write an environmental impact statement.”
So they wouldn’t back off of that position. It was their money that the state needed to do
the job, of course. So they came back and said, “We’ve got to write the impact
statement.” So I told them, and this in hindsight might have been bad advice, I said,
“Then write the environmental impact statement for the whole canyon. One project for
the next ten years, and then you’ll only have to do it once. We’ll do the bridges, you’ll do
passing lanes and other kinds of things that you might think are important and so forth,
and it will work fine.”
This is the interesting thing. (A side note on what I thought management and the public
ought to be like.) I’ll tell you a little bit later on another issue why this is important. We
knew the public was interested in what we were doing. And we knew that they were mad
at us for not listening to them. So I told my staff, “Folks, we’ve got to go out of our way
to talk to these folks and to discuss what the issues are.” So I went to the
environmentalists who were opposed to anything in Logan Canyon, and I said, “Folks,
they want to replace four bridges. They have to widen them a little bit because they’re
deteriorating and we need to do something up with the dugway, it’s just absolutely too
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�narrow.” And they basically didn’t disagree with that, but they didn’t trust UDOT. And
so I said, “Okay. If I can get a member of your group to sit on a committee with the
engineers that are planning all of this and if UDOT will agree that they will not proceed
until they have an agreement in this committee, what will you do?” And they said, “Well
if we can have a say and they will listen to what our issues are, we can’t oppose; as long
as they’ll be a little bit flexible.” And so we had the solution. Except at the very first
meeting where all of these people met, UDOT had hired CH2MHill as their primary
contractor, and the CH2MHill engineer who was in charge of the project got up and said,
“We are going to make the decisions.” And I thought, “You can’t do that, we didn’t agree
to that. You’re going to lose the environmental community if you do that.” And they just
would not back off of that. What they said was, “We’ll make the decisions, then you can
review it. And if you don’t like those decisions, we can talk about it.” But they were
never willing to talk about it in the sense that we could change it.
And the environmentalists – they came to several meetings, and then the wall went up
and it was not going to be possible to coordinate and to cooperate. We were that close! I
had my fingers parted about 3/8 of an inch to having that controversy settled and to get
the bridges fixed and then we would negotiate just some passing lanes somewhere. And it
went from there to, you know, to the concept, “Well this is a highway, we have to have
highway standards. We’ve got to have eight feet outside the white line, even in the
middle part of the canyon.” That was the argument that started. We came back with
arguments like, “But in Yellowstone National Park they don’t have eight feet on the other
side of the white line. You concur that you can do other kinds of things but if you go that
way, then you’ve got to fuss with the river again.” That was my biggest concern. I’m a
fisherman.
When I went to school here at Utah State University, I can remember in one of the classes
that we went up Logan Canyon, on the old highway (before the first improvement section
was actually done – because they built that just after I graduated) they had a famous hole
they called “The Big Hole.” The road kind of looped right around it this way. And in that
hole was a 15 pound cutthroat that they’d shocked out of there one day. In those days you
could catch three or four pound rainbows and occasionally a large cutthroat and a large
brown out of the river. It was a good stream.
But when they built that second section, they began to straight-line the river. Their fill
slope went right down to the edge in one area, which I’ll illustrate an issue it caused here
in a second. But the Big Hole became a controversy in that first phase that they put in
there. People were objecting that they were going to run the river straight down the edge
of the highway and cut that meander out of the river totally. UDOT finally compromised
and said that they would protect the hole. So they built two bridges that they didn’t want
to build. The problem was they built the bridge to pass floodwater, but not in a
hydrologic-compatible way to protect that corner. What they did was they built a coverted cement box and put the bridge over it. It would allow the river to go through it
alright, but it constricted it greatly. So when you constrict water and blow it out the other
end it’s going to come out in a great philosophy. And so it came out, was able to pick up
the bed load and move it someplace. Just down stream from the Big Hole is the other
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�bridge, which the fast water backs up against and slows down, and then shoots out the
other side of it. But while it slowed down it dropped that bed load right in the middle of
that Big Hole. And it’s gone. The river goes through there, but the prime habitat that was
there for that one big fish, from a 10-15 foot hole went to two feet with water running
over it. You know, the fish is gone of course.
This cut-slope issue became an issue in about the spring of 1984 when I got here, that
winter of ’83-’84 there was a lot of snow in the woods. When the water came out, it came
out hard. Well, when the river comes up it spreads out over its little floodplain and there
are no issues. We have summer homes here, here and here, scattered everywhere up and
down that river, and there was enough floodplain that flooding of those summer homes
wasn’t an issue. When that highway slope came down to the edge of the river in some
places, and the water had no place to go except off the other side -- where all the cabins
were -- we had water going through many of the cabins a foot deep through their front
rooms and all that sort of thing. Anyway, we knew those kinds of things were going to be
issues; they were issues in the past. And what they had done in the canyon caused some
of those issues. We were hoping that we would learn from the past and do better things in
the future. But the engineers that were working on that at that time – I’m telling you that
they’re good men – but they’re engineers. As a forester I can say this, because there is a
controversy between foresters and engineers on who knows best of how to do things.
Engineers are good at building things, but foresters have a little bit better sensitivity to
the land. If engineers had that same sensitivity there wouldn’t have been a controversy up
there.
So anyway, through the middle part of the canyon there was attempt to get the road wider
and wider and wider. And there’s no place to widen the road in there without massive
cuts up the side of the hill and/or straightening out the river or massive concrete bridges
that cantilever over the river so they don’t have to do any damage to the stream channel –
which they do anyway because the flow’s not the same. That project, for those kinds of
reason, just escalated and escalated and escalated until there wasn’t a whole lot of
cooperation. UDOT was doing what they would do as engineers. To the credit of some of
them though, they knew that there had to be some compromises there and they were
working a very delicate balance between the compromises and what the Federal Highway
Administration was going to require of them. I felt sorry for them like that, but they
began to make decisions in closets and then coming out and trying to justify them in
public. If you have time, I’ll tell you why that doesn’t work, and so forth.
Bottom line of the long story is that they improved Logan Canyon highway and they did
a remarkably good job doing it. Yes, they backed off of some of the things they wanted to
do, but they were able to do some of the things that the environmental community
opposed, thinking that it was bad, bad, bad. Once it was built you could see that they
really didn’t do any damage and they really did improve the highway. We have some
passing lanes where there weren’t passing lanes before on some flat country. You know it
worked out really, really well. I think the bottom line of all of it is that UDOT was able to
improve that highway just about as well as they wanted to and could’ve done. The issue
was they could have done it at the beginning, $500,000 cheaper had they just realized that
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�they had a public that was concerned. If they would’ve worked just a little bit differently
with the public and listened to them a little bit, responded in a positive way, they
wouldn’t have had to spend over $1,000,000 to complete the document. The $1,000,000
would have built all three bridges. [Laughing] And would’ve done a lot to improve their
highway, and yet they put it into the paperwork, and then still had to spend the money to
do what they probably could’ve got away with anyway had they managed it just a little
bit differently.
Now I get criticized sometimes for criticizing UDOT that way. I don’t mean to sound
critical of them, but I’ve been through the experiences that they contributed in the canyon
issue. And I knew what could work and what couldn’t work. The sad thing was is they
just couldn’t or wouldn’t listen and respond well enough to allow those kinds of things to
work in their favor. So they’ve got big walls built, their thick, hard steel reinforced
concrete walls – anything they do in that canyon now they’re just not going to get any
cooperation from people that might oppose them automatically because they don’t trust
the highway engineer -- which is a shame because like I said earlier, there are some really
good people there. They don’t deserve that kind of criticism. But on the other hand, they
brought it on themselves just by being too autocratic in the way they did their business.
Logan Canyon ended up being one of the most interesting and the most difficult of all the
assignments that we had. The Forest Service isn’t clean in this either. The supervisor got
tired of UDOT engineers complaining that our district was requiring them to do too many
little things. I stood right in the middle of them and told them they weren’t going to do
this and this and this, they had to consider this. And they kept asking me what authority I
had to do this. I don’t know if I had any authority or not, I just said it. They finally put the
Forest Engineer in charge of the Logan Canyon issue and backed the district off a little
bit, which I thought was a mistake. It further built the walls a little bit thicker. Our Forest
Engineer was able to work with the highway engineers, but so could we. But it was
engineer to engineer instead of a different disciplines trying to work out, you know, a
“better vision” so to speak.
But again, the bottom line is they built what they could have built, they built what they
needed to build. They could’ve done that in the beginning had they been a little bit more
open with the public, in my opinion, and we would’ve saved the taxpayers several
hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. I think that’s what bothers me the most. I
knew they were going to build what they were going to build. And I knew that it was
okay, what they were going to do. It didn’t need to cost so much extra money just in the
process of getting it approved, in my opinion.
BC:
You described kind of a process where you tried to get all parties at the table in the
beginning of that. Did you successfully use that same system on other, like travel plans,
and things like that?
DB:
Yes. Travel plan is probably one of the things I think the district should be the proudest
of all of their accomplishments during the [19]‘80s and early ‘90s. It came to pass in the
most interesting way. My whole career goal, for example, I wanted to be a district ranger.
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�I didn’t want to be a forest supervisor, I didn’t want to go to a supervisor’s office, I didn’t
want to go to the Washington office; I wanted to be a district ranger. I’m not egotistical
when I tell you this, and I’m not boasting when I tell you this either, but that’s what I
trained for. I read management books that lots of people read, and I read them several
times. I knew what it took. I knew what successful organizations did. I knew what
successful bosses did. I tried very, very hard – these aren’t my ideas, they’re other
people’s ideas – but I was impressed with them enough to think that I needed to try them.
Most changes in management styles take three or four to five years to implement. And if
you get discouraged in that timeframe and don’t get to the fifth year, they’ll throw them
out saying it was a bad idea when it really wasn’t. You just have to be able to stick to it
for that long.
One of the things that makes an organization successful is their exemplary customer
service, I mean they bend over backwards for their customers. The Forest Service
customer is the person that uses the woods: the camper, the hunter, the fisherman, the
person that drives up and down the road just enjoying the scenery. Another trait is that
the boss managed by wandering around. He knew what was going on. He didn’t sit in an
office and have people report to him and then make decisions on somebody’s spin to an
issue. He was there; he knew what he was looking at. So I spent an extraordinary amount
of time in the woods. My supervisor used to get after me, “I want you to this meeting!” “I
can’t be to this meeting, I am going over here.” And I resisted going to meetings a lot.
And/or when she called on the telephone I was never in the office. And she said, “I know
you’re out there doing your duty, but I need you!” I couldn’t do that. Our district motto
was “The highest quality money could buy.” And our mindset wasn’t there. That’s why I
told you about painting the tables. One in the campground and one in another
campground doesn’t make the campground look good.
So I knew what the crews were doing and I knew what the people in the woods were
thinking, because I went and asked them. During hunting season I would get in my
pickup truck and I’d stop at every hunting camp and I’d walk in the hunting camp.
Sometimes it was hostile. But this is the way I learned about what I’m going to explain to
you here in a second. I walked into a hunting camp one time in Temple Fork. They had
their campers parked with their rear ends out over the creek, and they were beating up the
bank (not any worse than the cows had done, but you know) they were in the wrong
place. I wanted to ask them if they would be really mad if we rocked an area 10-20 feet
off the edge of the creek so they couldn’t park quite so close. But before I ever got that
out of my mouth, the guy says, “What are you doing here?” And I said, “Well I just came
to visit and give you a garbage bag and talk about picking up litter and keeping off-road
vehicles on the roads, this sort of thing.” He said, “I want you to know you’re in hostile
territory.” I said, “Why is that?” The guy was angry, but he wasn’t mean, you know? And
he said, “Let me tell you this story. My family, extended family had been camping in
Logan Canyon for 50 years.” (This was in the late [19]80s, so it goes back 50 years from
there.) And he said, “A couple of years ago.” (Just before I got there.) “You closed our
camping place.” It was just a dispersed spot. They drove down an old road and there was
a little flat they camped on every year, three or four, five, six times a year, and then hard
during the hunting season. We were closing roads because we were getting too many of
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�them, you know, unauthorized. So they moved to another location and they hadn’t been
there two months before a sign went up saying “This area is closed to camping.” They
moved to another area and we did the same thing (and this is over just a couple of years).
And they moved to another area and we did the same thing. And then they ended up here
on Temple Fork. And they said, “If you’re about to tell us that we’re going to move one
more time,” he said, “I’m going to shoot you.” [Laughing] But he was kidding! But he
was making his point. And I said, “That is really interesting.” And he told me some other
families that were having the same issues. And so I went to those families, actually went
to their houses, and I talked with them about that. And sure enough they had the same
concerns.
At that same time we were starting the travel plan process. And we had to identify all the
roads we wanted to leave open and all the roads that we were closing. We potentially had
300 miles of road roughly I think we figured out, that we were going to close. We kind of
had it in our mindset which ones they were too, because they were all the unauthorized
ATV roads. And so when we visited with them, we got the notion (I did anyway) that
they would like to have a say in this. The typical Forest Service method of travel
planning was we’d go back in the office and the district personnel would draw the roads
on the map. And we’d say, “Well leave this one open and we’ll close this one.” Then
we’d go to the public and try to justify it. They had no say in it and the first time they saw
it on the board was at the public meeting. They would look at it and of course they were
opposed; their favorite road’s being closed and nobody could tell them why.
So we did it differently. We took our map and we took every road off the district. We just
took the whole road system and took it off the map; there were no roads on the district at
all. Then we put the obvious main roads back on – the ones that we’d spent hundreds of
thousands of dollars putting in and maintaining over the years and our access to the
woods kind of roads that would be there no matter what. Then we did something that no
other district did as far as I know. We invited the public to come in over a long period of
time and we asked them to tell us which roads they would like to see back on the map -with four criteria; and the public bought off on the criteria before we even opened up the
process. Any roads you put back on can’t affect water, the streams; it can’t affect
vegetation; it can’t erode the soil; it can’t affect wildlife; and we can’t have more than 1.5
miles of road per square mile. And the public said, “Those are fair criteria.” So it was a
piece of cake. People walked in the door. The old families that said, “I’ve camped on this
spot” (and point to the map) “and drove down this little road, it goes down a rocky old
ridge to this little campsite; I would like you to open that road or leave that road open.
It’s just one road.” They didn’t care about the rest of the district, just the one road. You
went through those five criteria. If there were no issues with those five criteria we said,
“Okay.” And they would blink and some of them would say, “You’re kidding!” No! It
met the criteria, that’s what we agreed to, so we drew it on the map.
By the time eight or nine months had gone by (we left it open that long), we had the road
system on the district that most interested the people in the district. That was the
important point. I mean, 100% of the public didn’t come in – maybe only 20% came in,
but those were the ones that would cause the most issues if an issue were to be had.
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�Rudy Lukez – do you remember Rudy?
BC:
Um-hmm.
DB:
Rudy who was the local Sierra Club leader? Worked with us day and night on that thing.
I respected Rudy a lot, he was fair. And when we got to the end of it and said, “Rudy, this
is what it looked like.” He had no argument except for one little motorcycle track around
Logan Peak. He said, “I want you to close that,” and I said, “Rudy, why?” “Well
because--” the criteria comes to effect, it doesn’t affect any of those kinds of things. The
folks who ride a motorcycle do need a place to go. And he reluctantly said, “Well,
perhaps. But don’t be surprised if I don’t appeal your plan.” Anyway, there was a little
idle threat there. So we said, “Okay Rudy. You do what you need to do.” We published
that; put it out to the public. We never had one appeal on it, not one, not even Rudy. We
were just tickled to death! I mean, the process worked! You listen to the public, you
respond to them in ways that are positive. If you can implement some of their ideas and
kind of work with them on some of their concerns, they’ll support you. And they
supported us.
We didn’t get one appeal. Every ranger district around the Logan District: Montpelier
District, Ogden District – eight, nine, ten, 12 appeals apiece; takes months and months to
get them all resolved. Then you’ve got a travel plan that’s still controversial because
people still aren’t supporting you. They tear your signs out, they drive behind the barriers
anyway because nobody’s going to tell them what to do. We had a minor problem with
that on the ranger district here in Logan. Some of our signs did come out on a regular
basis, but we made it a priority that this is one of our important things – the travel plan
was – if it’s going to work we’ve got to enforce it fairly. So we all carried signs in our
trucks with us. We all knew which roads were supposed to be open and closed and if the
sign was missing we put one up. The first year we probably lost one a month, the same
sign every month on a road. The next year we might’ve only replaced it twice. By the
third year we weren’t replacing them at all. The public was beginning to support us. Most
of the activists in the valley were supporting us, in their club meetings and stuff they
were telling people that they needed to behave and so forth. And it was working. We
were really proud of the way that it was working.
If you were to interview Garth Barker, for example, I think he would say (maybe I’m
being too bold in saying this), but I think he would say that during that timeframe they
were comfortable and very, very pleased with what that process did for them, and were
really comfortable with it up until about maybe 1995-96 when one person on the Logan
District said, “We are going to review the decisions in the travel plan and the Forest
Service will do this process and then we’ll take it to the public.” And I can remember
Garth writing in the newspaper, or somehow I heard some background on it, “no, that’s
not we agreed to.” And the Forest Service did it anyway. And they’ve been gradually
losing the public ever since which is sad to me because it doesn’t have to happen but it is
happening. Anyway, that’s the travel plan thing.
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�BC:
Seems much more contentious now when you read about it in the paper.
DB:
Oh yeah. The walls are very, very deep and they’re very, very thick. Cross-country skiing
and snowmobiling are two controversial things that occurred even during that time there.
I knew it was an issue, I came from the Sawtooth NRA [National Recreational Area], and
just before I got there snow machiners and cross country skiers were having a hard time
getting along with each other. Somehow, (I don’t know who organized the meeting) they
came together and they made some agreements that worked for them. The snow machiner
needed early snow and the early snow of course is in the high country. But once it snows
up on the Sawtooths, the whole valley is full of snow and the snow machiners can go
anywhere and they agreed to back off the high country when sufficient snow was in the
low country. Then the cross country skiers (there were a lot of downhill cross country
skiers in those days there) would be able to ski off the road edges and down to the road
below and drive back up and do their thing. You know, it worked marvelously. So I knew
they could get along.
And so we already had wildlife closures in the travel plan and they weren’t controversial
they were protecting a few elk winter areas and the snow machiners knew that was
realistic and it wasn’t an issue, they could get around them without a problem.
Bunchgrass wasn’t an issue in those days because we wouldn’t let it become an issue.
The cross country skier wanted the snow machines out of Bunchgrass. But no, the cross
country skier was there before you guys were and you still can get off and out of their
way. In fact you ski up their track and you ski down their track. But they’re not going
where you’re going so we’re not going to worry too much about that right now. But the
maintenance shed area was controversial. They were not getting along very well there.
And I had both groups come into my office, not together but one at a time, and complain
about the other one. I told them, “You’re not going to make this into a controversy and
you’re going to have to get along because I’m not closing it to one way or the other, for
these reasons: the snow machiner goes up the road, up to Swan Creek and back and that
country up in there, and they basically make a track for you to get to the deep, powdered
snow on north slopes that you can ski down without – the snow machine can’t go there
because it’s too soft, they don’t like to go there. They’re going to do the south slopes.
Except for the day after a storm, the south slopes are going to crust over two or three days
in bright sunshine and it’s hard to ski south slopes on cross country skis, as the
technology was in those days. And the snow machine guys are just doing their thing.
They’re looping, looping, looping and climbing high up on the hill and having a good
time and coming back down. And both of you are using the same country but you’re not
in each other’s way. Is that not true?” Well they had to admit that. “Well we don’t like
their smell and we don’t like their noise.” Be that as it may, it’s not really an issue
because they’re not in the same place anyway. So I wouldn’t let it become an issue, and it
didn’t.
I feel bad that it is today, it’s a major issue today. And so is Bunchgrass a major issue
today. But in my opinion, the reason it is is because the Forest Service again made the
decision without talking to their public first. They tried to make a decision and then go
sell it, and that is the worst way you could ever do anything in the Forest Service. If a
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�ranger makes a decision and tries to sell it to the public without any public involvement,
that’s what he’s calling public involvement – he or she. That’s not public involvement.
That’s telling people what you’re going to do and they have no input in it. If it is gets
controversial you may not carry it out, but you also won’t implement good things that
people could enjoy if it were otherwise.
BC:
I’m kind of curious; you talk a lot about the interface with the public. When you were
becoming a forester and went to school was there any education on how to do public
management? Because it seems like that’s a big part of the job now.
DB:
It’s a major part of the job and no, you know we came out of school as technically trained
foresters. We were going to go to the woods and manage timber and wildlife – if you
were a wildlife biologist – and cows and sheep and goats. But not necessarily people. If
you were a forest recreationist and had a degree in forest recreation from Utah State
University you had more of that kind of training, but you were also designing
campgrounds and people flow patterns and trail maintenance standards and stuff like that.
BC:
How about, were you here when the Utah Wilderness deal went through--?
DB:
Yes, yes I was.
BC:
And—
DB:
I came after the negotiations were mostly done and just before the law was passed.
BC:
So how did that process, was it similar kind of -- ?
DB:
Again, it’s one of those sad examples of the public and the Forest Service not being able
to talk to each other in a positive way. The boundary for Mount Naomi wilderness, for
example, is in some places is not a manageable boundary. It has too many little wiggles
in it to say that it’s wilderness here, but then the next little squiggle in it it’s not and then
it’s wilderness, and so forth. And all the little cherry stems they put up the canyons, you
know, so you can drive to a trailhead deep inside the wilderness that comes down both
sides of the cherry stem.
I was in one meeting with Tom Lyons (who represented the environmentalists at the
time) and we were talking about a boundary in Green Canyon, down by Logan. The
boundary comes down the Logan Canyon-Green Canyon ridge in a very narrow little
stem that comes west towards Logan from the main part of the forest. In places you could
almost throw a rock from the wilderness boundary to wilderness boundary. The forest
supervisor and I were meeting with them in a meeting one night. The forest supervisor
was trying to convince them that, “Let’s just draw the boundary across that little cherry
stem and not worry about it.” And Tom would not buy it for a second. He said, “No, we
agreed on ‘x’ number of acres for the wilderness. If we cut that out we lose 5,000 acres
and we’re not willing to do that.” But he said, “It’s not manageable.” And Tom said,
“You see all those trees” (picture Green Canyon, have you been in Green Canyon? So
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�you know on that north slope as you drive up the canyon that you’ve got a cliff, some
trees, cliffs and trees, cliffs and trees as it goes up that north-facing slope.) Tom was
convinced that we were going to go cut those. I said, “Tom there’s not even any way we
can put a road up there, even if that were a possibility.” He said, “No, we don’t trust you.
You’re going to cut those so we’re not going to deal with you on this boundary change.”
It was no big deal, we didn’t push it beyond that meeting and congress passed it the way
the map was drawn and we’ve been dealing with it ever since.
It’s a little interesting because, in my opinion, wilderness should be wilderness. You
shouldn’t have a road in wilderness that Richmond city, for example, can drive their
pickup trucks over to get to a well-developed water system that’s inside the wilderness
boundary. To me that doesn’t seem wilderness-y. Or to have a road that goes so far up the
middle of it for, you know, for whatever reason. But that’s the way it was passed so I
guess that’s what we deal with.
I don’t know if it’s one of the first, but it’s one of the early wildernesses new in the 1980s
that did have those little extenuating uses allowed inside the boundary; mostly for
municipal water systems. Some miners had access to patented mining claims inside the
wilderness (not ours, but you know, others).
BC:
And then the other big issue that came along during that period was the STLA Lands?
DB:
Yeah, that came after I left.
BC:
After you left? Okay.
DB:
We were involved a little bit in the beginning. I took the Seth Allen (who was then the
Cache County – what do they call it?)
BC:
Commissioner?
DB:
No he wasn’t a commissioner. He was what Lynn Lemon, the executive –
BC:
The county executive, that’s right, yeah.
DB:
Yeah. Seth Allen was the county executive and we toured the country a few times talking
about those kinds of issues. But I left before the decisions were made to change them
around.
But you can ask – what I thought about them? [Laughing]
BC:
What did you think about them?
DB:
It’s very efficient to block up ownership so you don’t have the state sections inside the
National Forest. If you can eliminate those kinds of things it just makes management for
both agencies a lot easier. But the way it came to pass, you know, the political-ness of the
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�thing was a concern to me because the state’s objective is to use state lands to make
money; which means that if summer homes made them more money than cows then they
would develop summer homes. Or if there was a mine, some minerals, they would be a
lot more open to managing the minerals because it generated funds for whatever fund
benefited from that activity. And being in National Forest ownership I think we had a
little bit better handle on making forests, forests and not open to golf courses and you
know, more recreation cabins and so forth.
So I was a little disappointed that something different wasn’t done around Beaver
Mountain. We weren’t ever going to allow condominiums and that kind of development
to take place up there. But with the state now in control of that stuff it can be a
possibility, I’m not saying they’re thinking like that. But it’s a possibility. We wanted to
purchase that 400 acres at the mouth of that highway that goes up to Beaver Creek. On
the south side of the highway there’s 400 acres, 440 acres I think, of private ground in
there. We wanted to pick that up really bad just to keep the urbanization of Logan
Canyon to a minimum. I believe the county ordinances won’t allow much development in
there right now, but of course they can change. I just think it would be sad to drive Logan
Canyon and all of a sudden have to drive through a community, you know. That’s my
opinion.
BC:
The other thing I wondered about – it seemed like in the early 1980s is the time period
you saw a lot more women moving into the Forest Service and U.S. Wildlife Service and
stuff. Did that happen with you and how was that change accepted or?
DB:
Well it wasn’t just women, it was women and minorities and specialists. All three of
those were kind of in the same box, so to speak. I think that’s an interesting question and
my answer is probably somewhat biased.
I believe that the forester, whether it is a man or a woman or a minority, it’s not what
they were, it’s what they are: a forester. Most of the foresters in the Forest Service, range
conservationists as well, at that time were white males. It’d been 80 years getting to that
particular point and to suggest that we automatically change the agency overnight to be
this marvelous balance was 1) in my opinion, not fair to those people who’d already spent
15, 20, 30 years working and growing and learning and were most qualified for some of
the leadership positions (not in every case, but generally speaking their backgrounds
would allow them to take the next step up the ladder, so to speak). And to be replaced by
a woman or a minority that had been in the service for five or six years didn’t ever seem
fair to me. They didn’t have the experience; they didn’t have the background and so
forth. So I had some fairly strong concerns about that.
A forest supervisor came to me one day and said, “I want you to take one of your GS3
summer positions, and I want you to fill it with a minority.” And I told the supervisor I
wouldn’t do it. He’d never been told that before, I don’t think, because the look on his
face was of quite surprise. But what I had working on the Logan District at the time were
people that had been on the district for a minimum of 10 years and many had been on for
15 years. And I wasn’t about to take that kind of an experienced person and put them out
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�to pasture to tell them when they came back from whatever they were doing that they
didn’t have a summer job because I was going to put a minority in that position, I
couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t do it. But I told the supervisor, I said, “But you watch this
district and I’ll bet you within a year we have a better percentage than any other district
on this whole forest.” Because I knew the staff was working in that direction. They were
picking up people that were qualified that would help the district succeed, not meet some
quota. And yet at the end of the year we had a higher percentage of women and
minorities working on our district than any other district on the whole forest. And we
weren’t forced into it and we didn’t wave our red flags to see how great we were
(whereas some of the other rangers were getting points for all of the attention they paid to
that). We spent our time focused on the woods. And we hired people that could help us
meet those objectives. And if a good young lady or a minority of any kind were qualified
to help us do that we sought them out and we got them and we did get them. They liked
working for the district. Then our percentages were higher than anybody else’s. And you
know what? We never got one ounce of recognition for that.
BC:
Huh. [Laughing]
DB:
But we didn’t care. That’s not what we were seeking. We knew it was the right way to
go. We knew it was the right thing to do. People needed to have opportunities to grow.
They need to start somewhere, and we were willing to give them an opportunity to start,
but it was on our terms not on somebody else’s quota. But it worked. I was really proud
of the staff and the way they went about that. We had Native Americans, we had women.
It was cool.
BC:
I had a couple of questions going back to when you went to school here at Utah State
University. Who were some of your favorite professors when you were there?
DB:
I laugh because when I started forestry school, I started in 1960, and I went one year and
I went on an LDS mission and came back in 1963. In 1960 there was Doc Daniels and
Ray Moore – the two famous professors. When I came back there was still Doc Daniels
and Ray Moore, Carl Johnson (and a few other names that I could think of but I’m not)
there; a very small faculty and not very many students. And so we got to know Doc
extremely well and we got to know Ray extremely well, really well. And then you can’t
help but thinking back on those days about those two old rascals. Yeah, they were good
guys.
Doc was harder than nails. He was a hard professor. Unless you were extremely articulate
and absolutely perfect he gave very few “A”s. But he loved us and then we respected him
a great deal too. We knew he cared about us he just wanted us to perform the levels that
we sometimes couldn’t reach! [Laughing] But Ray Moore was my advisor, I think for
most of the whole time I was in school. I got “C”s out of Doc Daniels until all of the
required subjects were over and then he taught some other classes that weren’t required
and I took them anyway because they would help us in our background. And I got “A”s
in those. He said, “If you’re dumb enough to take me after three years of silviculture” he
said, “I can’t help but give you an ‘A’!” [Laughing]
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�So anyway, those are the two guys I remember the most. There are others but those stand
out. Both have gone now too, haven’t they?
BC:
Um-hmm. What about any influential writers or books you’ve read that stand out?
DB:
Gifford Pinchot wrote a book on the Forest Service; I’ve read that book twice. That’s
probably the most influential book I’ve read about the philosophy of the Forest Service. It
focused my mind on certain principles. But other than that, you look at our text books;
they were all (let’s see I don’t even remember the name of them now. I remember the
titles but I don’t remember who the printer was). I can tell you they were red books with
the tree symbol on the front of them and they were the technical manuals that we all used
in those days. I still have some copies out in the garage somewhere I think. But as far as
books go, you know influence goes, I was more influenced by the writers of management
systems; what makes good companies good companies and what makes good leaders
good leaders – than I was by the books we were exposed to while we were in school.
I’ll tell you one story though that’s interesting to me, that helped shape some of my
background thinking too. When I graduated, as I said earlier, I spent three years in
Colorado Springs doing watershed studies basically. The Forest Service had a lot of
watershed money in those days, and I’m glad because I got hired off that money. I
walked all over Pikes Peak for three years just doing type lines around vegetative cover
types and so forth. But when I finally got back to the district I was assigned to the Dubois
District on the Shoshone National Forest. Now I was the main timber sale administrator
and I’d never administered a timber sale before let along read a timber sale contract. And
yet I was dealing with Louisiana Pacific, 50 million board feet supply lines – 12, 20, 30
million board feet timber sales – and I had no clue what was going on there. The ranger at
the time, his name was Harold Wadley, a legend in the Forest Service. That man could
get more things done than anyone I ever knew! He convinced United States Plywood and
then Champion Paper that they weren’t going to get 30 million board feet off the Dubois
District anymore, they were going to get 1.8 million board feet and they did it without
complaint. He was a marvelous guy.
I told him one day, I said, “Harold, I have never administered a timber sale.” He said,
“Doesn’t matter, I’ll tell you what to do.” He said, “You just go up to the woods and you
take your crew stick and you measure stumps.” I said, “Measure stumps?” The contract
required a stump height of 12 inches – you can’t be any higher than that, you can be
lower. And he said, “You’d be surprised what happens.” So I went up there and I kicked
the stump and I’d put my ruler by it and I’d measure it and I’d wonder on. I had no clue
as to what I was doing. But later I discovered that the skid trail lines were now straight
and on the line they were supposed to be, the roads being built where they were marked.
The loggers were dropping things so that they could skid them out without knocking all
the other trees over. And I would come back and it would be a mess and I’d start kicking
stumps again and everything would just smooth out; a wonderful lesson. I remembered
that ever since.
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�But I had marked a spruce stand one day. About 30 acres worth and this old logger had
been sawing trees for probably 50 years – asked me one day to eat lunch with him and I
said, “Sure.” After a little while he said, “Would you mind if I told you something?” And
I said, “No!” He said, “I understand exactly what you did with these spruce trees, but I
can’t cut them down. And the only way to get them to fall so that the cut off tree doesn’t
fall on somebody unexpectedly is I have to go over to this next tree. I have to cut it and
drop it into that clump of trees that you marked and knock everything down, including
the good trees. And that’s not what you want.” And I said, “No, that’s not what I want.”
(Just as a little background – spruce can grow as individual trees or sometimes they’ll
grow in clumps. And if they grow in clumps, the outside trees are all wind firm but the
inside trees aren’t. So if you cut out the outside trees the inside ones all fall down or blow
over in the wind. So I marked all the inside trees to leave the wind firm ones on the
outside. But the wind firm ones on the outside held up the trees on the inside and they
wouldn’t fall down.)
So he said to me, “Can I make a suggestion?” And I said, “Sure.” And he said, “Why
don’t you just mark the whole clump, and then don’t mark the next clump, and so forth.
And then you’ll still have that scattered tree system about here. They’ll all stand up. I can
cut the trees down, we can get them out of here and we won’t do any damage.” And I
thought to myself, “What a marvelous idea!” I’d never thought of that. And so that’s
what we did and it worked out fine.
Six months later from Colorado State University the main Forest Service researcher in
Engelmann Spruce management came out with what was a brilliantly written marking
guides for Engelmann Spruce. And guess what his suggestion was for clumpy spruce?
Almost word for word with what that old man told me.
BC:
[Laughing] Maybe he talked to the same guy!
DB:
I don’t know! But I learned a great lesson from that old man. You know, there are people
around here that know a lot more than you do, even though they haven’t been to college
and you would do well to listen to them. That set my thinking about listening to the
public too, in that point in time.
BC:
Um-hmm.
DB:
One short, other example. In Logan Canyon at Rick Springs, we used to have a flush
toilet there. It was a big pain in the neck because the water system wouldn’t deliver
reliable water supply. So it was always shut down and then people were relieving
themselves in front of the doors and behind it, you know. It was just a stinky mess. And
so the engineers came back to us and said, “Well, your water system doesn’t meet state
standards and so we’re going to spend $75,000 to put a new water system in.” And I said,
“You’re going to what?!” $75,000 of the taxpayers’ money to put an inch, basically
inside diameter water supply to an outhouse that is broken down more than it functions! I
said, “I don’t think we should do that.” Well the engineers thought that was their decision
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�and not mine. I told them, “No it’s not your decision, it’s the district’s decision and we
don’t necessarily think that’s what you ought to do.”
So I went up there one day to ask the public what they thought. “If we tore that toilet
out,” was the question, “what would be your response?” And the only two people in that
parking lot were two ladies laying on top of their car sunbathing, scantily clothed. The
kid with me said, “You’re not going to go up and ask them that question, are you?” I said,
“Certainly I am!” So I went up there and I knocked on the side of the door and of course
they jumped up startled and looked at me and I had my uniform on and stuff and they
said, “Uh, what did we do?” “Well you didn’t do anything; I just want to ask you a
question.” So I asked them the question. And there in all of their suntan glory said, “No,
we don’t think you ought to do that. It seems like it’s too much money for what it’s
worth.” So we asked a few other people around. Most of the local don’t use that. What it
was used mostly by were the bus companies on tour from Salt Lake, or wherever they’re
coming from, going over to Bear Lake and then on over to Yellowstone. That was just a
stop. So we didn’t ask them, but we tore it out anyway and we never heard a word and we
never spent $75,000 of the taxpayers’ money putting in a water system that probably
wouldn’t work anyway.
Anyway, so that’s kind of the way we managed the district. We went out and asked and if
somebody had a better idea than we did we would implement the idea. And it really
confused people. They didn’t think that a government agency would listen to anybody but
we tried really hard to do so.
BC:
One quick question on the fellows name Wadley? How do you spell that?
DB:
Harold Wadley was W-A-D-L-E-Y I think was the way they spelled it. Wadley.
BC:
Okay. That will help when we transcribe it.
DB:
Yeah. He was an interesting guy. He was a super patriot! Took leaves of absence and
fought in Korea and then in Vietnam. And he was wounded badly in Vietnam but it still
never slowed him down any. He couldn’t raise his (I don’t remember which arm it was),
he loved to hunt, but he couldn’t raise a gun up anymore so he shot it from the hip!
[Laughing]
BC:
And then somebody had mentioned that you were involved in trying to have some of the
summer home leases pulled, or?
DB:
Yeah. When I got here – not generally the whole bunch, but when I arrived in 1984 a
cabin at what we call Red Bridge (which is half way between Stokes’ Nature Center and
Second Dam, there was a cabin at Red Bridge). Now the kids use it – there’s a big rock
behind where the cabin was and they use it to rock climb and practice on it now. But it
was owned by a guy by the name of Chase Peterson from Tremonton. And ten years
before I got here Chase had signed an agreement that he would give up his rights to the
cabin. It was in the wrong place. You know that trail went right through his front door
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�almost, that’s up there now, and the public and he were having a few problems and so
forth. He agreed to give it up. So I happen to arrive the spring that the ten years were up.
So the decision had already been made to take it out. But Chase didn’t think that the
Forest Service would go through with it. I don’t know if I was being unreasonable or not,
but I mean he agreed and so we said we were going to take it out and there was no room
to renew it. So come June or July that year he was supposed to go, he wouldn’t go. He
was supposed to go, he wouldn’t go. He went to the Regional Forestry, went to the Forest
Supervisor. Bless the hearts of those two men, they backed up the district’s decision. So
Logan City was fussing with their water line at the time and agreed to take a ‘dozer up
there and knock it over and put it in a dump truck and take it out to the dump. The day
we’d planned to do that Chase shows up and stands in front of the bulldozer. I mean he’s
an older guy!
BC:
Yeah.
DB:
So we went up there to try and negotiate the situation. Of course he’d called the
newspaper and the newspaper was there. I believe they had a picture of me standing on
the guard rail with one foot up on the guard rail and my head hung down like this and
Chase jabbering in the background. Eventually we tore it down that day and it left and so
did he, and that was the end of the controversy.
The summer home issue and the Forest Service is interesting in my opinion. Way back in
our history there was a fairly political debate as to who should be the recreation supplier
in the country: the Park Service or the Forest Service. The Secretary of Interior wanted
the National Forest for recreation and of course the Secretary of Agriculture wanted the
National Forest for the multiple uses that it was supposed to provide.
And so in order to compete with the Park Service, the Forest Service got in the recreation
business. We built campgrounds and summer homes were one of the recreational uses
that were permitted on the forest at that time. A number of National Forests across the
west especially have summer home groups, some have many of them (like we do in
Logan Canyon, you know, not top to bottom but there are several summer home groups
in there). That’s where they came from. Their fees were very minimal. They were only
recreation cabins; they couldn’t establish a residency in them, etc., etc. Although over the
years many have tried. But as government has seen in our lifetime experiences, different
ways they can make money, they’re looking at summer home groups to say, “Well, their
fees are way below market value and so we’re going to raise them up.” And every time
that comes it causes a major controversy. They go to the congressman, the congressman
come down and beat on the Forest Service, you know, it’s like rabbits. They go through
this cycle where there are a lot of them and then it’s quiet for a while and then there’s a
lot more of them. That seems to be what’s happening with the summer home group. It
gets controversial and then it cools off, then it gets controversial, but it’s almost always
over the fee or some of the tendency of the some of the permittees to want to make
certain improvements to their properties and make them a little bit more urban than they
were designed to be.
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�But Chase is the only one that we actually terminated. [Laughing]
BC:
How do you see the future of the Forest Service?
DB:
Oh, I wish I didn’t have to answer that question!
Again, I grew up at the tail end of its glory, in my opinion. But I’ve seen the policies in
the Forest Service become more complex and more of them, more rules, more
regulations. Not necessarily coming from congress either. I see people in positions that I
don’t think ought to be in the positions they’re in because of egos, because of power, you
know. The things that people seek high positions for sometimes. I don’t see us spending
as much time on the ground as we ought to be spending. We’re spending way too much
time in political issues, at least some of the folks are. And I don’t see a bright future for
the Forest Service. I wouldn’t be surprised in five, ten years there isn’t a Forest Service
anymore. There will be some kind of gigantic agency that manages all of the, you know
the natural resources: parks, wildlife refuges, forests, you know, BLM lands all in the
same agency. And I’m going to be one of the firsts that would say it’s not going to work
effectively for the good of the American public. I think it will be a very bureaucratic kind
of thing, like many government agencies are, and I don’t think it will serve the public like
the agencies in the past have. People can accuse me of being an old thinker, I don’t care. I
have seen too many evidences where that kind of thinking does not work.
I can give you a couple of examples if you want to take the time to listen to them.
BC:
Sure.
DB:
The average ranger district, for example, even say 1984, consisted of regular staff but it
had what we called a business management assistant. It was a well-trained, usually a
lady, that managed the business of the district. She did the hiring, she paid many of the
bills, she had access to a fund where we could take and go down to the hardware store
and buy a hammer and nails if we needed to do that kind of stuff. It was very efficient;
the store owners got paid in a timely way. She completed all the paperwork that needed
to be done; some required a forest supervisor’s signature – she’d get it all ready, send it in
and manage that process. We hired our own people on the district. We could pick the best
workers because we knew who they were. We hired a lot of farm and ranch kids because
we knew they knew how to work and they loved outside, you know, the land and so to
speak. But gradually over the years all of those responsibilities that that business
management person has changed from being able to complete the work, to just being the
pusher of the paper. In other words they can fill out the form but somebody somewhere
up the line has to approve it.
I don’t know how many years ago it was; probably eight, nine, ten years ago, for
example, the personnel business that we were all involved in at one time became a central
organization. It’s in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Try to hire a person from a person who
is doing the approval in Albuquerque, New Mexico – obviously it takes a long time. And
it does. We would hire, for example, (I don’t know if this means anything) a GS3 (basic
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�clerical position). That person would blossom in that particular job to where they were
worthy of a higher pay. And at one time we could generate a higher pay to pay for their
value without any problem at all – well, a little problem – but not a major problem. Now
days, if I understand what I hear people talking about around the Forest Service that I
keep in contact with, it’s a major operation to get it done IF it comes to pass in the first
place. You have people saying, “We didn’t hire them for their brains, we hired them for
their hands! All they’re supposed to do is know how to type!” But this lady is calling
Yellowstone National Park to find out if a campground is open or if a road is open so
they don’t drive 200 miles and find that everything’s closed. She thought about that
herself. You know, people walk out of the office with smiles on their faces because they
don’t get the buck passed. “That doesn’t matter. We only hired her for her fingers. She’s
not supposed to think.” It’s that kind of stuff that drove me nuts, you know.
Last example: when I worked in the regional office, I knew I didn’t want to go to the
regional office; I really knew I didn’t want to go there. I went there anyway. I went there
because my boss wanted to have a forest planner as a district ranger and not a district
ranger in the woods. So she arranged a transfer for me to the regional office. I worked in
state and private forestry there for a long time and our boss was in Missoula [Montana]
(because they combined our two offices) and he wasn’t always in Ogden and so I would
go to meetings for him once in a while.
I went to a meeting where the regional forester’s staff – and when we called them staff
officers that meant something, but when they changed their name to “board of directors”
they lost the whole confidence of the Forest Service. But they didn’t see that. Board of
Directors; that means you’re elevating yourself above everybody else. They said, “Yeah.
We make all the decisions. You don’t do anything unless we make the decision.” I
thought weird. Anyway, I struggled with that name. We went to this meeting and they
had been talking for months about ten or so issues that were affecting the region. And at
this meeting they were going to talk about these. I thought this was interesting.
So I went to the meeting and they started to read down this list of all ten items. And,
Brad, this was really interesting. They were talking about stuff that we’d talked about 20
years before, honest! I went to meetings as an assistant ranger and as a zone manager –
which was the same thing as a ranger on the Sawtooth – where we talked about these
same issues in 1981 and 1982. The list, I put them in my drawer. And then sometime in
about the [19]‘70s we went through a program called “Choosing by Advantages” and
“Management by Objectives” and “Total Quality Management” – we went through all of
those kinds of things and developed issues and they’re exactly the same as we did in
1982! And when I saw those listed on the door, I thought, “Those look familiar to me.”
And I looked on my list and they were almost word for word to the stuff we developed in
1982 and nothing had been done about them. Nothing! And they were things that the
regional forester’s office probably ought to be working on because they had the authority
to make these changes, and yet nothing had ever happened. And I thought, “That’s
incredible.”
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�And I’m sitting there listening, listening, listening and they got down to the last end and
then the guy moderating the meeting said, “Very good! We’ve all done really good work
now the meeting is over!” And before they could get up out of their chairs I raised my
hand and I said, “Wait a minute.” I said, “All of these issues are really, really cool. And
they’re really important, but when are you going to do anything about them?” The room
went dead silent. And I knew I’d said the wrong thing because I’m only a GS12 talking to
GS13s, 14s, and 15s! And then one of them said, “I don’t think we’re so bad, why we
worked really well together on this!” (They had retreats where they went away, you know
for themselves, and did all of this.) And that ended the meeting. And I actually went out
of that meeting a little sick to my stomach because I couldn’t believe that this level of
intelligence would be so naïve to think that was their original thought – it wasn’t! We
thought about that in 1981 and ’82 and you know, a few other times during the year. So I
stayed on for another couple of years before I retired, so it must’ve been in about 1998.
And you know, until that very day that I walked out of the office nothing had been done
about those ten issues -- nothing.
BC:
Hmm. Amazing.
DB:
So, to answer your question shortly: no, I think the Forest Service has changed. I feel bad
that it has. I just don’t think they’re going to be as effective as they had in the past with
the policies and the way they manage people now and all those kinds of things – I don’t
think they can get back to the way it was. It’s too political in my opinion. We’re too
much focused in on environmental documentations and documents which I don’t think
the law requires us to be that intense, but we are. I don’t see rangers in the woods a lot. I
see them at meetings, but not in the woods. I see their staff in the woods, but then the
disconnect is between quality and ideas: this person is doing their own thing, the ranger’s
going to meetings all the time. But where is the district going? I have a hard time
sometimes seeing where that is going.
What we did on the Logan District that made Logan Canyon and everything else work is,
like I told you earlier, our campgrounds were in really bad shape. So what are you going
to do with a budget that’s static to get from a really bad level of maintenance to a level
that you’re proud to invite the public to come out to see? How are you going to do that?
Well I told my staff that it wasn’t painting one table at a time in a campground! And then
I asked the question, “How are you painting the tables?” “We’re painting them with a
four inch paint brush and a gallon can of paint.” Well if you’ve painted a little bit of your
house you know that’s slow. There are faster ways to do that. So I just asked a dumb
question, “Why don’t you buy a commercial paint sprayer and spray the whole
campground at once? You could spray the whole campground in the time it takes you to
paint one table and drive 20 miles to paint the second table. In other words you can do a
whole campground in a day.” We only have 12 campgrounds. You could get all 12 of
them done in 12 days if you had the resources to do it. Well we didn’t have the resources
to do all 12 of them, but we had a little bit to do some. So they went out and bought a
$300 and some odd paint sprayer and sprayed all the campgrounds lickety split. They
started to look pretty well, we didn’t increase our budget any.
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�A group of people – the city forester in Salt Lake City – was planting thousands of trees
across these parks in Salt Lake City for pennies. How does he do it? He’s hiring the high
school football team. He’s paying them $500-$1,000 to plant 10,000 trees (which if you
contracted it would be close to $10,000, you know). So for $500-$1,000 he’s getting all
of this work done. What’s in it for the football team? Well they need money for pads and
for helmets and for special equipment that the school district isn’t funding them for.
Loved it! You get these big, husky kids out there digging holes fast – so why don’t we try
that?
Our campground grates, for example, they were all broken apart. We were replacing them
one at a time with metal ring fireplaces, which is a pretty good deal but we weren’t
making any progress. So why don’t we hire a football team to come and do it? So we did.
We brought Skyview’s High School football team to come in and do it. We paid them
$1,000. They replaced almost all of our campground rings in Logan Canyon in a very
short period of time. Saved us thousands of dollars and yet got our campgrounds up to
one more level for just pennies.
BC:
Um-hmm.
DB:
That worked out really well. We did it again and again. And they came with their own
supervision; they came with their busses. We didn’t have to pay for anything except for
that little fee we agreed to. They bought helmets – it worked out perfectly for them.
So how are we going to take care of the litter problem? Because that really bothered me.
The crews would go through a campground and they would pick up stuff and within a
day it looked like they’d never been there. A really sad thing for Cache Valley because I
thought people would be much more sensitive than they were. I was disappointed in that.
But how are we going to do it because we’re not going to get any more money to get any
more people to pick up garbage? Do you know the name of Don Yonker?
BC:
I know some Yonkers out in –
DB:
Gordon. You know Gordon Yonker?
BC:
Yeah.
DB:
But Don Yonker is an older man now. He owned a bunch of land up against the mountain
in North Logan, but north of Green Canyon. Don was a scouter and he came into the
office one day he was concerned a little bit, as I was, that Eagle projects were being
refused on the district right and left. And I couldn’t understand why we kept turning away
free help.
BC:
Um-hmm
DB:
“Well, we don’t have time to go out and set up the project. We don’t have time to do this
and that.” In a way that’s a legitimate – but not really – because you know, we could take
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�the time if we wanted to. What were we doing that was more important? Probably
nothing. But Don walked in the office one day and he said, “I’ll help you manage that
program.” He said, “I’ll help supervise the Boy Scouts.” And so the next Boy Scout that
came in wanting an Eagle project, we said, “Yes.” And then we got more, and we got
more and we got more and pretty soon Don was managing a whole bunch of Eagle
projects. They were out doing a quarter mile of trail here, and you know, a half a mile
here; picking up here; doing all kinds of stuff. We got ourselves up one more little notch.
Actually we were having a little bit of pressure about using more volunteers on the
district, you know, because it was a political thing to do. We got points for doing that.
But we didn’t want to do it just because we got points. We needed help. So we instituted
– at the time Lady Bird Johnson had the “Take Pride in America” program – and we kind
of spun in behind that and we said to the public through different means, “We need some
help, folks, picking up in the canyons.” We got so many volunteers that we could have a
family go pick up a campground once a week, to be backed up by another family and
another family and another family; so we were actually getting things picked up really a
lot. Every trail, every road, every campground had numerous families that had signed up
to go pick up litter. And we went up another notch. I mean the forest started to look really
nice. The problem was still there, but it was getting picked up on a regular basis.
The district went back to Washington D.C. four times in a row and they won the top
honors for that category in “Take Pride in America” just because of the work of Don and
couple of his replacements and some other folks on the district that, you know, dedicated
a little time and energy to that program. It was a wonderful program. It did wonders for
the district, and here our budget’s not increased one dollar. But you know what happened
from all of that is, is that people in the forest supervisor’s office and elsewhere began to
see that Logan District knows where to spend money because we did. If we had extra trail
money we knew what trail we wanted to put it on. If we got an Eagle project we knew
where we wanted to put it, it wasn’t a guess, because we’d done some planning that way.
So they would come in, we’d say, “Sure. You’re going to go to that trail and do this
much.” And they’d go do it. And we’d just add, add, add, and the trail gets maintained
and it was perfect.
And so that’s what we did. And yet those folks began to say, “Wait a minute. They’re not
just throwing money away.” No we’re not. We know where we’re going with it. So we
got grants like $30,000 came in from this fund; and $40,000 from this and $10,000 from
this and $5,000 from this because they knew we knew where to spend it. And we did –
we spent it where we needed to spend it. And so the district took a way heavy step that
way. We figured it would take us 15 years at our existing budget in Logan Canyon and
the whole district in general to get all of our campgrounds up to a standard that we
thought was acceptable. And we almost got there in eight years because of the extra
money.
Now why do I think the Forest Service is struggling a little bit? Because that’s all
undone.
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�BC:
Yeah.
DB:
We’re not there anymore and we’re not making the kind of progress that was made in
those years. I’m not claiming credit for it. I got to sit back and put my feet up on the desk
and smile. But the staff guys that were doing the work were just doing a marvelous job
and it was working really well.
When I left (I better be careful how I say this). When I left, I predicted that it would be
within, oh at least as short as a year and perhaps two or three years that the district would
be almost back in the same condition it was before we started all this stuff, and I’ve pretty
well come close to that prediction. And I’m not boasting about that, you know.
All I contributed to all of this stuff that went on in the forest was I said that we had to
produce the highest money can buy and we’re not going to be functional. The fire crew
can’t have their separate vehicles and their separate tools from the range crew, from the
trail crew – we’re all part of the same district. It took about four years to get that mindset
into people’s heads. And what that did when they got there, when they finally figured out
that somebody cared about what they did, they acted together. The trail crew driving
down the road would see a crooked sign they would stop and straighten it up instead of
just drive past it saying, “That’s not my job, that’s the recreation guy’s job.” The
recreation crew, if they saw cows where they weren’t supposed to be they didn’t think,
they would tell the range folks that, “There are cows over here.” And the information
flowed around the district. If a sign was missing, if they didn’t have it in their pickup
truck, they put in there and put it up the next day. It wasn’t their job, but they were going
that way. So they started all working together, they started to coordinate together a little
bit. They authorized “fire personnel only” signs came down; locks went off the cabinets.
We all contributed to the tool supply instead of each one of the groups having to horde
their own things. It was really cool; but that all disappeared within two years after.
I kept it going; I would admit that I preached like a preacher never preached before on
that concept. Like I said, it took four to five years to get everybody agreeing that that’s
what we were going to do and working together. But without that preaching it went away
in a short period of time. I feel bad about that. I try not to get involved with the Forest
Service today because I know, number one I would be disappointed; I would get sort of
angry. I feel sorry for where they’re all at, I really, really do. But I don’t know if they’ll
ever recover from, you know from the bureaucratic box they seem to have built about
themselves.
I think we could’ve had diversity; I think we could’ve had – not only in people, but in
occupations and skills – if we would have just lead and exercised some leadership in
there. I could go forever and ever you know. I have a real passion about this.
One of the major mistakes a good company does that causes a failure in a program almost
every time, is when you get a leader that stands up there and preaches the greatness of
this new thing that you’re going to try and do and then the next day assigns it to a staff
group to implement. It will never work, I don’t care how good the idea is, in a hundred
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�years it will never work! For one, the staff guy doesn’t have the authority to do
everything that needs to be done; for one it’s not his idea, it was just given to him; for
another the boss sometimes won’t give him the autonomy they need to go make it work.
And for those reasons it will not work. That’s what the Forest Service has done in many
of these things that are good ideas that we’ve tried to implement, but almost every case
they delegated it to a staff person to implement. I knew that when I came to the district
and I would not do that; I would not delegate the responsibility of creating that
management picture. I couldn’t do it because I knew it would fail; and it did when I left. I
knew it would because the other rangers – good people as they are (and they’re good
people) – had a different way they want to manage. They didn’t want to manage that way.
But they’re not making as much progress as we were making either, that’s the only boast
I’ll make.
BC:
Um-hmm. Yeah.
DB:
There are several writers (and I don’t remember all their names), but their writings are all
classically the same: you manage people this way and you do these things a certain way,
this is what good companies do and you’ll succeed. And I read their books, over and over
and over again. I tried to do that on the district. And I believe they were right. I really do.
I believe they were right; because we made progress.
BC:
I always like to end with the question, if you could go back and change anything about
your career and your life, would you?
DB:
If the conditions of the day I started with the Forest Service were true today I would do it
over without hesitation.
BC:
Um-hmm.
DB:
I still love being a forester. I still love being called a forester. I still smell pine scent on
the breeze when I think about it enough, you know. I love the woods and what it
represents. I see the woods being different than what the politicians see it. It’s not just a
money making kind of thing, but there’s a whole organism out there that requires – in our
day and age – some attention. We call it “management.” In the old days when the Indians
set fires to burn holes in timber so they could put their horses in there, or to bring the elk
and deer and bighorn sheep and that sort of thing, down into the openings (because they
really were attracted to those); the lightening things that burn for months and months in
the summertime and all that fire influence, in the West anyway, had a major influence on
what the vegetative types, mosaics and all those kinds of things developed around. And
each stage in their development benefited something else at that particular point in time.
Unlike what the environmentalists wished would happen – that we do nothing to the
woods – is not wise because the end result of all this vegetative development on its own,
without any influences turning it back one way or the other (you take fire out of the
system, if you take the bugs out of the system, and so forth), you end up with a pure stand
of some old tree that has litter on the ground this deep with very little ground vegetation
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�and therefore, not much to offer for the other varieties of – the wildlife and birds and so
forth that call that home. The biomass itself might be high in vegetative types, but animal
wise and the other kinds of critters that you normally think to find there, aren’t there
because their habitat is not there. So I don’t know, for whatever wisdom you know, fire
kept things in different stages scattered about the countryside and the re-development of
the vegetative type’s history back up toward its climax – kept things in variety.
Well in 1905 when the Forest Service thought – it was even true when I graduated from
college – that fire, insects and disease were the enemy of the woods! And we had to do
whatever we could to minimize those things. If you’re talking pure timber, that’s the
concern of course, because that’s where the value of whatever your product is. But if
you’re talking about ecosystems, that’s not wise because the periodic disruption in the
community is what keeps it viable and the variety there. And so I always thought in my
scheme, the land needs to be managed and it needs to be wisely managed. People need to
use it but they can’t abuse it. You can cut some trees but you can’t cut too many of them;
you can graze some cows, but you can’t graze too many of them, and so forth. If you
were able to strike that balance in being able to manage a district like that, or even a
forest like that, that the benefits to both the landscape and to the user of the landscape
would be about as good as you could do it. If we could do that, then this job would be
very, very interesting to continue on with it. It really would.
But knowing what I know today and knowing what the Forest Service is like today –
would I do it again? I would think about that a little bit harder. I don’t know what I would
do different but I would would think about it a little bit harder. I think I would be a
specialist and get away from the politics. I am really interested in fire and spent a lot of
time in that particular box and I would easily want to become as expert as I could ever be
in the whole fire management issue. I could find some joy and happiness in doing that,
but not leading it. Again because of the politics and policies that seem to be controlling
everything in ways I wish it wouldn’t.
BC:
Um-hmm. Alright, well thank you very much Dave, for –
DB:
Did I talk too much?
BC:
No, it was great! And we could probably go on for a long time.
DB:
Yeah, I can get real passionate about management. I really, really can.
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�
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2012-08-22
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Dave Baumgartner interview, 5 May 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
The interview contains information on the childhood, education and the career of Dave Baumgartner as a forester, the various positions held within the Forest Service and his views on management. There are many anecdotes from his personal experiences in managing in the Logan Canyon and Logan District of the Forest Service, including his attitudes regarding the road expansion up Logan Canyon and his idea to include land users when making decisions.
Creator
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Baumgartner, Dave, 1942-
Contributor
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Cole, Bradford R.
Subject
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United States. Forest Service
United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees
Foresters--Interviews
Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Interviews
Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Family
Baumgartner, Dave, 1942---Career in Forestry
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction
Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon
Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon
Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Public relations
Utah. Dept. of Transportation--Public relations
Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Management
Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Travel
Environmental protection--Utah--Logan Canyon
Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest (Agency : U.S.). Logan Ranger District--Officials and employees
Volunteer workers in camp sites, facilities, etc.--Utah--Logan Canyon
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Oral history
Interviews
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Salt Lake City (Utah)
Utah
Cache County (Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Lewiston (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 3
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Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
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Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
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FolkColl42bx2fd3DaveBaumgartner
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5 May 2008
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2008-05-05
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/6c0494b3102cbdb8ac9feef5c11a1070.mp3
1eda16ac17d7fc51187ea7bd5dee80b6
http://highway89.org/files/original/790e78acba7c8721b35f2fb27b213c3a.pdf
06eda37c1313d5ef77ccc9238375a4d7
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
John Neuhold
Place of Interview: John’s home in Logan UT
Date of Interview: April 11, 2008
Interviewer: Lyra Hilliard
Recordist:
Lyra Hilliard
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Express Scribe Transcription Software
Transcribed by: Glenda Nesbit
Transcript Proofed by: Elaine Thatcher, Randy Williams (2011) and John Neuhold
(July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: personal background, but mostly his professional life
and education, his mentors, his work in Wisconsin, but mostly in Utah, including project
with the Deseret Livestock Company (intensive grazing), working with fisheries, dealing
with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89
through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at USU and
politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references
to the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists. Work creating and work as first
director of USU Ecology Center and participation in the Utah Democratic Party.
Reference:
JN = John Neuhold
LH = Lyra Hilliard (USU graduate student)
NOTE:
Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and
starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcript. All
additions to transcript are noted with brackets. Tracks 1-3 are preliminary
to the interview, sound testing, etc., and not transcribed.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
LH:
This is Lyra Hilliard with the Logan Canyon Use and Management Oral History
Project. And we are here with…
JN:
My full name is Matthias Johann Werchnig Neuhold –it is different—A KA John
M. Neuhold. I was born at an address on Cherry Street in Milwaukee, Wisconsin
on May 18, 1928, my mother’s birthday. Both my mother and father were
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�immigrants from Austria and they came to this country right after World War I.
And shortly after that I was born.
My earliest memory of Logan Canyon is when I came out here and I left the
University of Wisconsin to come out here to attend the, then, the School of Forest,
Range, and Wildlife Management. I drove down Logan Canyon with two friends,
Ed Harvey and Gene Holenstein. Ed was from Milwaukee and Gene was from
Rice Lake, Wisconsin. And it was on June 11th we came down from Milwaukee
with our jaws agape because we were just absolutely fascinated by the scenery.
We had come across the United States on US 30, Highway 30, the Lincoln
Highway, and deviated from it to 30 North and crossed into Utah. What was then
basically a dirt road came down Low Canyon. Saw Bear Lake again, we were
astounded and then climbed the mountain and came down Logan Canyon and
found lodging on 4th North. And in the morning when we got up there was four
inches of snow on the highway on June 12th.
My family’s land use traditions really started with my grandfathers, both by
grandfathers, who were game keepers in Austria. And my maternal grandfather
had a farm in a valley called the Valley of the Gailtal, Austria, and worked for one
of the estates. At that time it was still a royal estate. And he was a game keeper
for the royal estate. My other grandfather was killed in a mountain climbing
accident when he was serving as a game keeper; he was killed on Mt. Dobratz in
southern Austria, which is right on the Italian border actually.
The land use traditions actually continued although. My father got work as a
construction worker in the Milwaukee area. He loved to hunt and fish and the
family always was out on weekends or when he had vacations. Why, we took off
into northern Wisconsin and out there. And of course as I grew older I was farmed
out and began to work as a farm hand in southeastern Wisconsin on several
different farms.
I came out here as a student from the University of Wisconsin in the area of, I
thought initially, as forestry. And then began to deviate from that into the wildlife
area and gained my degrees in Wildlife Management, Fishery Management and
then finally Aquatic Toxicology. My Ph.D. was in Aquatic Toxicology.
My hobbies and recreational pursuits followed my father’s lead and that was
basically hunting and fishing, expanding into such things as skiing, outdoor
hiking and basically just taking advantage of the outdoors. I’m an outdoor person.
Let’s see we got through the professional part of it.
LH:
So that first day that you drove through Logan Canyon, that June 11th, coming
here to, as a transfer student, to go to school.
JN:
Uh hum.
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�LH:
Were the other two people with you?
JN:
Yeah.
LH:
They also were students?
JN:
Yeah. They were students. Yes. We came out here, at that time the School of
Forest, Range and Wildlife Management. We didn’t have a college at that time.
This was still called the Utah State Agricultural College. It was still called the
Utah State Agricultural College at the time. And that was in 1950. The students
that were present, we came out here to attend summer camp which was held up
Logan Canyon, where I became introduced to a variety of things.
I should point out that before I left University of Wisconsin, my mentor or
professor at the University of Wisconsin was one Phillip Whitford who was a
student of Curtis’s and whose area was ecology – plant ecology. And I worked for
him; I took classes from him of course. But then I also worked for him doing a lot
of forest surveying, identifying trees in the winter time. He was laying out
basically plots for forest growth, woodlots and farms and that in southeastern
Wisconsin. And my job was there was basically to go out and identify trees and
plot areas and measure the sizes of the trees and so on. And we were doing that
winter and summer. So I became very adept at identifying the vegetation in
southern Wisconsin. But I came out here in the summer camp. We of course were
introduced to the plants out in this area. Most of which I knew so that was not
much of a problem. And that was really a very interesting time for me.
Then when I was out here after summer camp, Dr. Ted Daniels and Ray Moore
hired me, along with Sam Jackson and Sterling Rickman, to do some plot layout
work for them on the school forest. And again their concerns up there was looking
at forest growth and the way we did that was basically to lay out the plots along a
line that we used with a chain, that we measured with a chain. And then identified
the trees at the end of, I think it was a hundred meter chain. Yeah, it was a
hundred meters. We identified the trees in that particular area. Measured them,
took their DBHs. That is diameter-breast height-and estimated the height of the
trees and the species of the trees in the area. That was my introduction to the
forest part of the area.
And then I got into the wildlife management. That’s where I did my Bachelor’s
degree was a matter of two more years of training in that area. And then my
Master’s degree was in fishery management. And then I went to work for the
State of Utah Fish and Game Department at that time. And I had, I was hired by
the Assistant Federal Aid Coordinator: Jay Udy in Salt Lake City, along with Bill
McConnell who was a fellow student of mine. And we were put to work. We,
basically what we did was design and implement the Stream and Lake Survey in
the state. And that was really a marvelous experience for me because I went to
work with crews. We hired crews. Most of the work was in the summertime when
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�we could hire students to help us work on the statewide lake survey, part of it. But
it took us into every corner of the state. And our procedures were basically to do
sections of streams and lakes. We used electro fishing to find out what kind of
fish were present in the streams and we used nets in the various lakes and
reservoirs to identify the lakes. And it was the first time that an inventory was
taken of lakes and streams in the state. The most interesting part of that, well there
was a lot of interesting parts to it really. One was getting acquainted with the rural
part of Utah and the people living in those areas, which was really quite
interesting. The area, the people there, of course, were mostly all Mormons and
part of the culture, but unlike the . . . let’s say they were not as rigorous down
there as they were up here in Cache Valley or in Utah County. It was . . . you
could have fun with them. It seemed that the higher in the mountains they got, the
less strict they became.
It was something that . . . actually it was a comment that was made by Frazier
Darley who happened to be a British, English ecologist who made a tour of this
country. And when he got to Utah he was hosted by three of the state’s worst
reprobates: Lee Kay from the Fish and Game Department, Rasmussen from US
Forest Service, and Art Smith from the Utah State faculty. They guided him
around the town and he’s the guy that made the comment that he recognized that
he understood that the Mormons were strict teetotalers, but it seemed that the
higher in the mountains they went the less strict they became, and out came the
bottles. I worked with all three of those guys and they were a lot of fun. They
were all Mormons but they were backsliders basically.
LH:
So you were talking mostly down in the southern part of the state?
JN:
Oh all over the state.
LH:
All over the state.
JN:
Yeah, all over the state. We, I was with the Department for a four year period and
during which time I had finished my Master’s degree and I led that Stream and
Lake Survey for a four year period and then when I left it was taken over by
another student of mine who at that time was working for the State of
Washington. Albert Regenthall, who happened to be from New Jersey, he took
over my position here and then the other fellow that took over was Don Andriano
who was also a former student, and a fellow student, who happened to be from
Iowa originally. And he became the Chief of Fisheries here in the state where
Albert became kind of all, basically in the waterfowl area. After my four years
with the Fish and Game Department I came back to the University and did, I did
my work on my Ph.D. and finished that up in a two year period, after which the
University hired me as an Assistant Professor in 1958. And I’ve been with the
University ever since that time.
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�A lot of the work that I did with my students was done in on the forest. A good
deal of it was done in Logan Canyon on the Logan River. And it, well, it dealt
mostly with fishery management questions and aquatic ecology in the river. And
since my doctorate was in aquatic toxicology I did a lot of work with basically
testing the various species that we had in the area for their susceptibility to the
various different kinds of toxins. We did have at that time a lot of fluorides being
emitted to the environment by the steel mills down in Utah County and by the
phosphate fertilizer plants up in the southern part of Idaho. And a lot of the
fluorides would be part of the stack emissions which would settle down on the
watersheds and then when we did have a freshet come on through, a rain storm of
one sort or another was washed into the rivers and we’d suddenly find a lot of fish
kills. And so we tracked those questions down quite a bit. That led on to quite a
lot of work. I should maybe continue on.
A group of us got together on the campus, all faculty, and began to discuss the
things that we had in common relating to the ecology of the area. So we had
people from agriculture, and people from the, by this time we were a university so
it was the College of Agriculture and the College of Science and College of
Natural Resources. All the faculty that were involved in these lunch meetings
were ecologists or were working in ecological areas. And from that stemmed the
concept that what we needed on the campus was a thrust in ecology. So we made
a proposal to the State Legislature and to the National Science Foundation to
create an ecology program.
Initially it was the Center of Excellence in Ecology. We did have what we
considered to be a sizeable group of people that worked in the area, in all aspects
of the area, autecology and synecology. And felt that we deserved recognition as a
center. Well, the National Science Foundation didn’t consider us quite that good
yet. However, they suggested that we apply for a departmental program in
ecology, which we did. And we won that. And the same time the state allocated to
us a biennial sum of continuing support in, I think it amounted to $200,000 per a
biennium: $100,000 a year which was matched then by the National Science
Foundation. We created the Ecology Center here. And I was named the first
director of it.
And as a director of it I got into a wide variety of things. Obviously one of the
things that I was mostly concerned with was trying to build expertise that we did
lack in the area. So I managed to talk David Goodall, an Australian ecologist who
was at that time at Riverside, California, at the University of California at
Riverside, to come to this campus and with the monies that we had built the
faculty portion of the program.
We were successful then in obtaining a big grant from the National Science
Foundation in the International Biological Program. And our program here was
desert ecology. So we basically built the consortium of universities from
California, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, and Utah. We had some 60 different
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�faculty members involved at these institutions. And the program was a multimillion dollar program and that’s, we started off with that. And it was a very
successful program. And we made a pretty good name for ourselves in this area.
The Ecology Center persists and it’s under, it’s now under the direction of Jim
McMahon who is the Director and who is also working to get a program that’s
dealing with, basically dealing with mapping and changing ecological structures
in the United States, or in North America, really, when you get right down to it.
And that’s been going on now since… let’s see the Ecology Center was initially
formed in 1956 I think we got our initial appropriation from the state and in 1957
we got the initial appropriation from National Science Foundation. And so on. So
we’ve produced a lot of students from this in the ecological area in, mostly in
desert ecology, but also in aquatic ecology.
A lot of my activities, because of that, became involved with the National Science
Foundation; I took a two year appointment with NSF and spent some time as a
Program Director for Ecosystem Analysis in Washington. After which I became a
consultant to the Department of Energy and their board of consultants as an
ecologist. And, I served on the EPA Science Advisory Board for a period of 22
years. Basically in the ecological arena, but I also served on their central
committee which basically guided, or I should have said guided by giving advice
to the agency concerning ecological involvement in the environment and how
their charge basic regulation of environmental aspects infringed upon the
ecosystems. So that was basically what I did until I retired.
Then when it comes to my activities here on the Cache – Cache National Forest, I
think perhaps one of the major things that I was involved in was road construction
– highway construction on US Highway 89 going through the canyon. We were
very much involved in trying to keep the engineers at bay. They were basically
concerned with putting a highway through and not really caring a hell of a lot
about what’s happening to the river and this sort of thing. So we went to work on
that and the primary worker on that incidentally was Dr. Bill Helm – William
Helm.
I suggested at one time the lower portion of the highway should have been named
after him because he did --- he did a lot of work on it. And actually was
threatened by the highway people. They got to the governor and the governor
came down and wanted to have him fired. And thank goodness the president that
we had at the time refused to accept that and the governor finally backed off. But
yeah, we were concerned with basically what was happening to the highway. And
the thing that was happening from a policy point of view in the forest was the fact
that it had been utilized basically as grazing grounds for cattle and sheep. And as
a matter of fact when in the early 50s (you can still see the trails on the side of the
mountain) the sheep were being grazed on the face here and they’d also trek the
sheep down the canyon. Now they have to, they have to truck them down. But at
that time they trekked them down and you can see the trails – trail markers that
they made walking on the face. You can still see along the face here that where
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�they would, where the sheep would basically create a trail a little bit, kind of like
terracing going up and down. Here you can see some of it back here. That was all
private land incidentally. And it hadn’t been fenced at that time yet to keep the elk
and deer out of the area.
LH:
And that was private land?
JN:
Well, it was private land then but it hadn’t been fenced. So they’d come off the
forest and come on the private land and down through this area. That was only in
the fall when they’d take them off the mountain, or in the spring when they’d put
them up in the mountain. Because they’d start to unload them here and then take
them up the mountain. They’d trek them up the mountain instead of trucking. The
amount of grazing that’s gone on has really been reduced drastically. Mostly,
because the area has been basically converted over to a recreation area. So it’s
basically outdoor recreation, hunting and fishing, camping, hiking, all sorts of
things that would lead to the recreation aspect of the Forest Service’s charge.
LH:
Do you consider that a loss that it’s not so much grazing anymore?
JN:
Oh yeah. Grazing has been reduced a lot – a tremendous amount actually.
There’s, I think, only about two or three sheepherders on the mountain now and it
amounts only to some 10,000 sheep something like that where there used to be up
in the hundreds of thousands of sheep. And there’s still cattle grazing going on up
there, but it’s a small amount – relatively small amount. And in my opinion it’s
still too much.
LH:
So it’s good that there’s less grazing.
JN:
It’s good that there’s less grazing, but I think because of the change of emphasis
in the people’s use of the area, I think. I feel personally that there’s still too much
grazing going on up there. There’s also certain aspects of recreation that there’s a
little bit too much of which I disagree with; a lot of motorized access to the area.
ATVs, all terrain vehicles, and in the winter time, snowmobiles have taken over a
big portion of the area, and the people that use it, that use ATVs for example, a lot
of them are pretty responsible. But there’s always a portion of them that want to
make the place into a motorized playground so they like to drive up hills and they
gouge the hell out of things. You go up the back of Mt. Logan and you can see
where they, they just basically devil the hell out of the place. And it’s unfortunate
but that does happen. And in the wintertime of course, the snowmobilers do, like
they infringe upon the wilderness areas which you shouldn’t be doing. And
actually the current ranger in the area, I think, has been a little bit too sympathetic
with the motorized folks and not enough with the hikers and the horsemen in the
summertime. And in the wintertime the skiers, the snowshoers that I think cause a
lot less damage to the area than do the motorized vehicles.
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�LH:
You were talking about testing, sampling the fish in the area for the toxins from
Idaho and from Utah County. And you were talking about we’d get a big rain
storm and flushing those toxins into the water, which led into quite a lot of work.
Well, before we get there we should back up a little bit and I don’t know if you
wanted to talk more about that and what you found and if people didn’t like what
you found.
JN:
Well, one of the things that we did find was that the source of the toxins hit the
watersheds and of course rained into the river. But when they were on the
watershed they were also exposing grazing animals to the area. So we found a lot
of fluoride intoxication, for example, in cattle and in sheep, and also in some of
the wild animals: the sheep and elk and so on. And our findings basically caused
the Environmental Protection Agency and the state environmental agency to put
limits on what could be done in that particular area so that the steel mills had to
put up capture devices to keep the fluoride from going out. And the same thing
was true up here with the phosphate plants. So that you know, that was
successfully taken care of.
LH:
And when was this? When would this have been?
JN:
Oh this was back in the 1950s basically. And by the end of the ‘60s, the start of
the ‘70s, most of that had been pretty well taken care of. Fluoride intoxication
was pretty well put under control. Let’s see what other things did we have?
LH:
Well, I wonder about attitudes and changes over time. I mean, when I hear “Well
we were looking at this in the 50s and by the end of the 60s and the early 70s
most of that was under control.” And I think of just nationally, anyway, a shift.
Thinking about environmental consequences, and I’m only assuming, of course,
that there was this national shift. But I don’t know if it was as pervasive, if it took
longer a time in some areas. If people were resistant to the ideas.
JN:
Oh, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. That’s no question with that. But the
federal government, the Congress did pass some very important legislation
concerning the quality of the rivers and well, basically the waters of the United
States. And I served on the, as Chairman of the Ecological Committee for the
review of the legislation that came out in this area. The, I forget now the name of
the act. But it had to do with the quality of waters that came out. And then, and
some of the things that this act did was basically gave the charge to the
Environmental Protection Agency, the charge to regulate the quality of the waters
in the . . . For example, the Ohio River back in the 50s and 60s was basically an
open sewer, and somebody estimated that the water that was taken out of the river
for drinking purposes at Cincinnati had passed through someone’s bladder about 4
or 5 times. So there you go. The quality of the fish in the river was really
something. You know, it was basically introduced carp in a river that at one time
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�held some very important types of game fishes. And when the Act was finally
enforced those game fishes came back.
So you got up there to Pittsburgh, that was basically an open sewer and you can
find black bass and muskellunge and things like that occurring now in the river.
But they had been completely eliminated from the area before. So a lot of that
work was really fairly important. And it was a substantial change in the way
people looked upon their own waters. You know. The Environmental Protection
Agency has done an awful lot in that particular area at that time. Until the Bush
administration came on and then things went to hell again.
Well, I shouldn’t say went to hell-- they became so damn lenient in allowing
continued air pollution, for example, that caused a lot of the lakes in the US
northeast in the New England states and New York to acidify. A lot of the waters
in the lakes up there acidified to the point where it killed off a lot of the plants and
animals in those waters. That was mostly a result from all of the manufacturing
activity that was going on in the Ohio River area. The Ohio belt and the steel belt
– the Rust Belt they call it. And up until the time the Bush administration came
along there was substantial progress being made in trying to clean this up. Trying
to clean up the air pollution in the area and so on. And when the Bush
administration came in, why, they relaxed a lot of the rules for emissions or
relaxed a lot or didn’t enforce them, basically is what it amounted to.
LH:
This is the current Bush administration. Not 1988, but 2000?
JN:
Yes, the stupid man that we have leading the country now [George W. Bush].
LH:
Now were rivers out here in the, I mean we talked about the Ohio River, but were
there rivers out here in the west that were . . .
JN:
Oh sure. We had the Bear River was a real open sewer for a pretty long time:
starting up in Idaho and coming on down. The Bear River is an interesting river. It
starts in Utah and comes on down and goes through Wyoming and then comes
back into Utah, goes back into Wyoming, goes into Idaho and then comes back
into Utah and ends up in the Great Salt Lake. But it starts up in the Uintah
Mountains. And so there was a lot of activity that affected the water; number one
irrigation diversion. A lot of that came apart and then grazers were allowed to hit
the river and the river banks to a point where the river became fairly silt laden. A
lot of silt was dumped into the river and that has slowly improved. The irrigation
diversion has not, but it has slowly improved other than that. And grazers have
been somewhat more careful about doing things on the river banks and in many
areas the river bank has been fenced so that the cattle don’t get to it except at very
specific areas where they could get to the water and so on.
LH:
Because of course that contributes to erosion.
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�JN:
Yeah. Well that was – erosion was the result. When an area became overgrazed
why, the erosion became pretty drastic.
LH:
Right.
JN:
And a lot of mud came into the rivers on that basis. We had, our graduates went to
work for the Deseret Livestock Company which is a huge operation. It’s got 325
square miles of property on the Utah; I think it’s mostly all in Utah, border here in
the eastern – northeastern part of the border. And they have a big chunk of land in
the Uintah Mountains and they have a big chunk of land out in the West Desert.
But the training that the people who went to work there got from Utah State
University, the land managers that they hired really did a lot of things to improve
things.
Where, prior to really regulating the grazing, especially in the sump area and wet
areas, the grazing basically stopped water production in those area. Now Deseret
Livestock came in and they basically ponded many of those areas so that they
have little lakes now up in many of these washes. And with a certain aspect of
controlled grazing of cattle in the area, the way they do it now is basically put the
cattle into an area and allow them to graze intensively for a very short period of
time and then move them onto another area. That allowed some of those springs
to come back up again. So where the springs have been completely dried up
because the area was compacted by the grazing, the year round grazing was
actually producing water once again. And so that sort of thing has improved
substantially.
Oh, one other thing that I should mention. This was done experimentally. Dr.
Wayne Cook who was a professor in the Marine Science Department was trying
to improve the grazing aspects of the watershed where many of the grazing areas
were overgrazed, and when they were overgrazed a lot of the undesirable plants
came in; like mule’s ear for example. Wyethia [mule’s ear] was a plant that came
in and basically crowded out the grasses that the animals would normally graze
upon. And Wayne’s idea there was to cover the area with a pesticide or with an
herbicide I should say, to kill off the Wyethia. Being one of the nasty plants, one
of the most nasty plants up there. And allow the grasses to come back in. Well,
that worked fine except that the herbicide that he put in also was washed down
into the Logan River where we used to have a really good stonefly population in
the river. The so-called salmon fly. It wiped those out almost completely. Well it
did wipe them out completely to a point where Trout Unlimited – members of a
Trout Unlimited chapter here in the valley got together and gathered stoneflies
from over in Blacksmith Fork River and reintroduced them into the river and I
think that’s been fairly successful. That was done over the last 5 or 6 years.
LH:
Wow.
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�JN:
Well, I mentioned the aspects that influenced policies in the Logan Canyon were
basically the force of recreation use in the canyon basically crowding out the
grazing use. That was a change of land use in that respect. There’s still grazing
going on in the canyon but it’s been much reduced.
LH:
Since, I mean gradually over the last…
JN:
Well, gradually over the last few years. Yeah. The Wellsville Mountains over
here on the west of us was really badly grazed. And we went over into the
mountains back in the 1950s, the bare ground. There was virtually no vegetation
growing on it other than the big shrubs. The oak, not oak but maple and conifers,
so on. And a lot of that was being washed away, the ground underneath that was
being washed away down into the valley bottom. Well, the Forest Service finally
cut out the grazing in the area completely. The area, it’s a very steep mountain,
and, matter of fact, in the United States it’s the steepest mountain range that we
have any place in the United States. So they cut out the grazing on the darn thing
and allowed it to recuperate. And as a matter of fact now it’s a wilderness area:
The Wellsville Wilderness Area.
LH:
Hmm. So recreation is…
JN:
Recreation, I think, is probably the most important thing that’s going on in the
area. And depending upon who the ranger is and his background that comes in to
take care of the area, why, it tends to increase more and more toward recreation. I
think the last ranger, the current ranger that we have in the area is a little bit more
lenient on motorized use in the area than I would like to see happening. They’re
supposed to, the Forest Service is supposed to open up any land use decisions to
public discussion. And they try to get away from that. Of course the
Environmental Protection Agency has a love of . . . let me call it the, well before
a policy is put into action a study has to be made of the area that is being affected
from an environmental point of view, looking at the specific impacts of it. And
coming up with a decision as to what those impacts are and if the policy is one
that would impact the environment too much, that lays the Forest Service open to
suit. And many of the suits that have been brought against the land use
management agencies, Forest Service, BLM, Indian Service, and so on, have been
brought by basically recreational use, people like the Sierra Club, people like
Trout Unlimited, various other land use agents or interest groups, have
successfully knocked down some otherwise disturbing policies that could be
taking place. So I think the agencies have become a lot more aware of the impact
that whatever policies they make does have on public lands. And try to avoid,
they try to avoid the suits as much as possible.
LH:
It’s different out here. You know just how much land is public land and who’s
land is it.
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�JN:
Well, in the State of Utah 80% of the land in the state is public land. And that’s
you know, there’s probably more public land in the State of Utah than any other
place except Alaska.
LH:
Hmm.
JN:
[Reading question:] Have I ever tried to influence government actions?
Yes I have. I became very active as a Democrat: ran for office three times for the
State Legislature. Twice as a representative and once as a senator; and was
defeated three times. I was chair of the Democratic Party here in Cache County
for a number of years and a member of the state central committee as a Democrat.
But this is, we are, the Democrats here who are very strong on land use issues
have been defeated most of the time. But the State Legislature is really a
dictatorship of the Republican Party. And most of the land use issue is really that
is basically for land use. They would love to see the Forest Service and Bureau of
Land Management all privatized. And we’ve always been against that; that’s one
of the reasons we don’t get elected to office.
LH:
So how do we affect policy in other ways?
JN:
One example is, I was appointed to the-- can’t name the, remember the name of
the committee I was appointed to. It was a land use policy committee that looked
at the utilization of state lands. When Utah was created a state the state was
allocated, I think it was one section of land in each township. And so we have
blocks – the state has blocks of land all over the state; checker boarded basically.
And those lands were really misused. Number one a lot of them were in the
middle of federal land so that a lot of them were in Forest Service lands or Bureau
of Land Management lands and were really unaccessible to state management
control. And where they were accessible the state really blew it. The state sold off
the property in such a way that the state didn’t make much money. The monies
that were supposed to have been made off of those were supposed to go to the
school fund and support basically schools for the state.
And when I served on that particular committee to look at this and come up with
suggestions as to how this might be improved, the amount of money that was in
the school fund was only like about $600,000; whereas, in the state of New
Mexico it was almost a billion dollars. And we came up with a scheme that
allowed the state, the State Land Board to the school trust, it’s called School Trust
Lands Board now. [This] allowed them a good deal of latitude so that they could
sell or consolidate their land so it could be more easily managed. And those
proceeds that come off the sale of those lands or the utilization of them for
grazing purpose and this sort of thing, that would build the School Fund, and the
School Fund has been built now. It’s up into the millions of dollars where, over
the last 20 years. I think it was about 20 years ago that we did this thing. And that
was I think a fairly important move.
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�One of the things that happened on the Cache, for example, was that school trust
lands existed in the Forest Service areas that the Forest Service agreed to trade off
lands so that where the school trust land had been surrounded by school forest it
could be blocked off into a different area and the area that had been school trust
land would be reverted to Forest Service land. So in other words, there was a
trade made and they’d trade off Forest Service land for School Trust lands and
vice-versa. And a batch of trust lands was centered around the Beaver area, the
Beaver skiing area that was basically taken advantage of as a recreation area now.
So that they can develop recreation aspects of that particular area, which includes
some summer home development and so on that the monies that are made off of it
would then be reverted to the school trust lands. And that I think was a fairly
important thing that I was involved in.
We covered how the policies have been changing over the years. And I hope it
continues to change in that aspect. I think one of the things that I would like to see
happen is the Logan River and the Blacksmith Fork Rivers being considered as
Wild and Scenic Rivers. And they’re still talking about putting dams up here in
the canyon. That would be terrible if they did that. It’s a poor place to put up a
dam anyways. The area is basically Mississippi and limestone which is really
subject to water solution so that the area is undermined with caves and whatnot
that leakage from a dam built in that area would be tremendous. And put my little
house here in danger of a catastrophic flood if it should break. We are as it is,
we’re in danger of a 500 year flood, which is pretty rare. That’s why I built here.
LH:
Wow this scenic river. Now that’s been proposed, I imagine, or are there…
JN:
Well yeah, we have proposed it as a Wild and Scenic River but the Forest Service
has ignored us on that and I don’t know why. They should be really looking at it
from a recreation point of view. And that would be a recreation thing. Of course I
think the fact that it has some dams on it now, these basically run the river dams
of our generation. And the highest one is up here at the Third Dam. But the river
up above that could certainly qualify for a Wild and Scenic River. And it should
be. And there are other rivers that come into both the Blacksmith Fork and into
the Logan River.
The Right Hand Fork is another one that could be classified as wild and scenic.
Temple Fork would be wild and scenic. And that is basically being treated as
such. There’s an interesting thing about Temple Fork and Spawn Creek that goes
into Temple Fork. The Trout Unlimited has worked hard to preserve the Spawn
Creek as a spawning creek for the native Cutthroat Trout in the area. [It] has
prevailed upon the Forest Service to allow us to fence the river, Spawn Creek,
away from grazing. And when the grazers come up in there they have a rider
that’s supposed to be up there guiding the grazing. But they seldom do. They,
would like to get them down to the green grass as much as possible. And they
mash the hell out of the Spawn Creek to the point where it actually endangered
spawning in the area. It’s a tiny little creek and it’s hardly any wider than this
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�room in a lot of areas and the cattle were grazing right up to the end of it, right up
to the bank and into the river, the creek itself.
And the net result was that what had at one time been grass was turned over to
various kinds of rushes that are not palatable to plant, to the cattle or the sheep
that use the area. And so we prevailed upon them to fence it and they did. That
was nice. Temple Fork is another one that the, I don’t think they’ve fenced that
one yet. But they may end up putting some kind of obstruction on it. I know they
wiped out the road that went along side of it and moved the road up on the
mountainside a little bit further away from the river, which was important because
the road was built over some pretty permeable soil and it washed into the creek. It
should not have.
[Reading Questions:] Let’s see what else is? Who were some of the most
influential teachers that I had in the area and stuff in your field.
Oh, there were quite a few actually. Starting back in Wisconsin it was Phillip
Whitford who’s now dead unfortunately. But he really perked my interest in
ecology and that’s where I became basically an ecologist even though I went to
work as a fish manager initially and then later on as a aquatic toxicologist. But the
aquatic toxicology part, well, both of them. Fish management did rely much on
the ecology of the area and so on. And the toxicology part of it was basically an
autecological approach to the populations that lived in these aquatic
environments.
Then out here, when I came out here, I think the major, one of the major men was
William Sigler who was Head of the Wildlife Department and also my major
professor in my graduate degrees and also a very close friend that we maintained
through the years until he died. He was very important. Then I had two other
mentors here on the campus that I felt were extremely important. They were not
even in the College of Natural Resources. One was Wynn Thorne who was in
Agriculture. He was an agronomist, a soil agronomist, but he was also head of the
experiment station and he was just a marvelous scientist and he was a person who,
you know, I just loved to associate with him. He was just such a neat guy. And the
other one was Dean Peterson, who was Dean of Engineering. And he and I
became very close friends and again he was a very open-minded sort of an
engineer. Although he was a Republican and I was a Democrat. [Chuckles] That
was the only difference we had between the two of us. But he influenced me a
great deal, especially in the administrative areas. Those were the three I think
most important guys that were my teachers.
Then among my colleagues there were, well there was Bill McConnell who was
my compatriot in the stream and lake survey stuff. He ended up being a professor
at Colorado State University and we maintained the long friendship and peer
relationship over the many years. He died here a couple of years ago. And then a
lot of the people that were my peers are dead. I mean they died.
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�Oh I should point out that I had, I put together every year a group of alumni and
we meet up in Bear Lake. We call ourselves the Mossbacks. They come from-Bill Mcconnell was one of them--from Colorado State, from Wyoming, from
Idaho, from the state of Washington, from Alaska, from Arizona, and throughout
Utah. There’re about, at our biggest number I think we had about 16 guys that
used to go to get together up at Bear Lake. I used to rent a house up there and then
some units, some motel units and then I did the cooking, and we’d sit around for
two days and in addition to renewing the acquaintances we’d always have
something to talk about. We were mossbacks so a lot of it was basically
curmudgeon type talk, but a lot of it was also dealing with, discussing various
land use policies, and in a very informal sort of a way. We’d sit around in the
living room and then talk about these things, take walks and talk about them. And
there were always some musicians in the group and we’d also play music and sing
about them. That’s still going on. I’ve got the group getting together on May 9, 10
and 11th up at the Ideal Beach again this year. And I’m preparing an Austrian
kraut dinner for them for one dinner and the other one is, oh it will be a beef
dinner of some kind.
LH:
Nice.
JN:
Breakfasts are sour dough and quiche. Sour dough pancakes and quiche. Doing all
the [cooking], you know that’s part of the old man’s thing.
[Reading questions:] Particular stories. What do we have?
Well, the critical policies that were enacted in the canyon was the creation of
wilderness areas. We had the Swan Peak Wilderness Area, not the Swan Peak, the
Gog Magog area up here and then the Wellsville area. Those were important
policy changes that took place.
Highway construction: we did have a big impact on highway construction in the
area. And with Bill Helm’s initial phase in the lower portion of the canyon and
then when they began the work on the upper portion, up above Right Hand Fork,
we were very active there to make sure that they didn’t encroach upon the river in
anyway. And the cost of building the highway was increased substantially. But we
did manage to get the beauty preserved in the canyon. So that was an important
policy thing that we were involved it that. And that was basically a citizen
originated, well, I should say a citizen, it was not official input. Let’s put it that
way. It was not agency input that was basically individuals. Although some of us
were associated with the university, it was on our own volition that we went to
work on this and tried to change the way of doing things. And we were
successful. They increased the cost of the highway but it was well worth the
expense.
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�LH:
JN:
It sounds as though the Legislature has always been, you called it dictatorship, I
believe earlier. Like just this Republication bastion of …
Well yeah. I am down on the Republican Party here in the State of Utah because it
is ultra-conservative. It is use oriented, development oriented, and all of this sort
of thing. And there are members of the party that are much more liberal, I should
say, they’re not as conservative. And as a matter of fact, one such, [David] Hogue
from Salt Lake City, he helped us a great deal when we were working to get a fish
disease policy board established.
That’s another story that was kind of long. A fish disease control was handled
basically by Ron Goede in the Fisheries Disease Laboratory here west of town.
And the private growers became incensed that some of the rules and regulations
that were created by the laboratory. And Ron was extremely effective in getting
this established nationally, not just as, within the state of Utah. So that various
barriers were established disallowing any diseased fishes from going from one
state to another.
And the growers here in the state of Utah, the private growers, became incensed at
that so they prevailed upon the Legislature to take that away from the Division of
Wildlife Resources and put it into the Department of Agriculture, the State
Department of Agriculture. And when they did that initially, they created a system
that was dominated by private growers and basically under the dictatorship then,
it was basically that dictatorship of the Department of Agriculture.
Well we were incensed by that and began a movement to create input by the,
continuing input by the Division of Fish and Wildlife—the Division of Wildlife
Resources into disease control issues. And so we went to work and had this fish
disease policy board created. And Hogue was very instrumental in that. He was a
Republican but he was very instrumental in helping us do that. And he got so
incensed with the conservative nature of the Republican party that he quit the
party and is now running as a Democrat. So some changes like that have taken
place in, and I’m going to send him some money so that…
But at any rate we were beset upon again by the fish controllers. Which is a
$600,000 a year business. And recreation fisheries is a $600,000, 000 a year
business here in the state of Utah. And the main bone for contention is the spread
of whirling disease, which we have been controlling very nicely in the state
because of the fish policy board as it was created. But now the private controls
prevailed upon the legislature to loosen that up substantially. And a guy by the
name of Mike Noel from Kanab, who doesn’t have any water near him at all, is
the guy that is responsible for following the dictates of the Farm Bureau in
creating a program that is not very good right now. It’s in bad shape again.
But you have these sorts of things going on politically in the state that are really
difficult to handle from a really wise land use policy. And it pervades, it goes
beyond the fisheries area. I mean it goes into virtually all aspects of land use. The
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�ranchers, they feel like they have a special interest on the federal lands
surrounding their area of operation and only their opinion should count; this sort
of a thing.
Mike Noel is a rancher from down in Kanab and with the State Legislature and
he’s one of these people that does that sort of thing. When I sound bitter about
politics in the State [Utah] then it’s because I am. One of the particular stories that
I like to share, God, I’ve got so many of them.
And I pointed out that I am politically active. Or at least I was. I kind of retired
from it because I’m getting too old and my back hurts me too much to get out and
do stumping.
LH:
We’ve covered a lot. Do you want to close with a little story or a little hope?
JN:
Well, I know one of the favorite stories I like to tell is when I left Wisconsin to
come out here, before I left I went to say goodbye to a friend of mine who ran a
sporting goods store just a few blocks away, half a block away from where I lived
at the time. And as I walked in to say goodbye to him, he was talking to a
customer there who just happened to mention Utah. Well, God, when he
mentioned Utah my ears perked up since I was coming out here. And I bust into
the conversation and asked him if he was, where he was in Utah. And he said, oh
he’d just graduated from Utah State, he said. “Oh my God,” I says, “that’s where
I’m going.” And this was . . . I asked him “Is there any good fishing out in that
area?” And he says, “Oh yeah.” He says, “Right in the city of Logan,” he says,
“or the town of Logan you can walk to some very good fishing.” And he
described a spot. He says, there’s a beautiful spot with a nice fishing hole just
above a fox farm. Well, there used to be a fox farm right across the river here. The
farmer Liechty, he was raising fox and mink and the hole was right up here. And
lo and behold, ten years later I bought a lot on the property and built my house on
it. So that was from a story that occurred in Milwaukee of all places.
LH:
What luck.
JN:
What other stories. Well, a lot of the stories that we had were related. My early
stories were related with my stream and lake crews. And we used to go out and do
things. At that time the State Fish and Game Department, we were paid $2.50 a
day per diem and that was, that was to buy our lodging and food and everything
on the road. Well you couldn’t do that for $2.50. So we camped out all the time.
And we would buy groceries and we’d, and then we’d make do with that. And
we’d supplement our groceries with anything that we could catch that was edible.
Or we thought was edible. So our crews would go out and we’d bring back to
camp rattlesnakes that we’d skin and section and fry, cook, eat. Grubs that we’d
dig out of logs and we’d roast those and eat those. Locusts; we’d catch those and
fry those and eat them, that is, the grasshoppers. Oh, boiled owl. We’d catch an
owl and boil it. You know what a boiled owl tastes like?
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�LH:
No
JN:
Boiled owl. Yeah, we’d do all kinds of things like that. And then of course to
entertain ourselves we’d, well, one of the guys would go out and we’d rob
sparrow nests and bring the fledglings back to camp. And then train them to go
falconing with. But you falcon with, we’d go after grasshoppers. Put them on your
finger. They were a little bird. They were only about that tall; tiny little thing. And
we’d go, “Kill, kill.” It’d go after a grasshopper and then we’d go and pick up the
grasshopper from, and that worked out pretty well actually.
LH:
Did it really.
JN:
Yeah. And the other thing we had, we caught a big old golden eagle one time,
which now is illegal. You can’t do that. We caught a golden eagle that had been
stuffing himself on road kill jack rabbits. It couldn’t fly. So we put a fish net over
his head and brought him back to camp. And then we’d feed him. We’d put him
on a perch there and feed him. And we had a little sparrow hawk that shared the
perch with him. This was a little sparrow hawk – like that and a great big old
eagle like this. And the sparrow hawk, we put a piece of meat down between the
two of them. The sparrow hawk would go like this and go peep, peep, peep. And
the big old eagle looked down and go peep, peep. The little sparrow hawk would
fox out the, bluff out the eagle, got the piece of meat.
LH:
Wow.
JN:
Oh and we’d have altercations in the field. Bill McConnell and I also took on a
lake rehabilitation task that was basically done in Panguitch Lake and Navajo
Lakes in Southern Utah. Why, those lakes were taken over by Utah chub and they
were basically trout lakes. And we couldn’t, they couldn’t support trout anymore
so what we did was to go in there and reclaim the lake by poisoning out the chub.
We’d use Rotenone which is a toxin that was taken out of the cubé root of the
cubé plant in southern or in South America. It would be powdered up and then
dumped into the water with an emulsifier of some kind. And it would kill all the
fish that were in the lake. And then we’d start over by putting in just straight trout.
And in doing that, let’s see, how many times was I accosted? I was accosted three
times in the state of Utah by rifles. One guy had a pistol. And trying to get work
done and I remember one, down at Panguitch Lake, there was a spring pond that
had to be cleaned out and it happened to be on private property, and the cabin was
on it, and it was inhabited. And I went up there and the guy knew that we were
doing this apparently. And he came to the door with a 30/30 and put it in my
chest. And I had to talk like a Dutch Uncle before he finally allowed me to clean
out the pond. And the other time was on Strawberry Reservoir when I was, had a
crew out there. We were building a fish ladder so that we could access a stream
for spawning purposes. And it happened to be right through a fishing camp that
was built there. And the owner of the camp was really getting nasty with my crew
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�out there. So I, I told him to layoff. And I told him if he didn’t layoff he would
end up getting a bath in the river. And he came out with his pistol and he
threatened me with his pistol. And I went over there and tried to grab him by the
collar and he turned around and ran.
LH:
So there.
JN:
I was a big guy. Well, I was a big strong guy. I was a paratrooper during WWII
and was strong as a bull so I could do a lot of things like that and get away with it.
I was a big person.
LH:
[Laughing] Wow.
JN:
Oh. There’s so many stories that I could tell. Here in the Cache most of it was
really pleasant. I hunted a lot up here and fished a lot in the stream. And of course
I had my students fishing in the streams up here, or working in the streams up
here. I had a lot of good times.
When I was an Assistant Professor here I used to, I had a laboratory in the old
part of the Natural Resources building, that is the blue panel thing that was there.
And I was the first person to move in there. And then I had a laboratory down in
the basement of that building. And a bull pen that I housed my students in and
we’d, every morning we’d get together and spend most of the morning hashing
one thing over or another. There’d be half a dozen students and myself. And it
was basically a kind of a free forum. Discussed just about everything, you know.
It was fun. We learned a lot. And the thing is that the students also, because of
that kind of a communal arrangement, partially because of it, and the fact that I
was pretty liberal about letting them do things that they liked to do, they’d help
each other out a lot in the field. The guys would get out there and help one guy up
at the, working over at Hyrum Reservoir was trying to, gill net fish out of it, so a
group would go over and help him with the gill nets. Some guys working up at
Bear Lake and they’d do the same thing you know, and so on.
And every once in a while we’d have a party; we’d hold the party up at Guinivah.
One of the guys would get a beer keg from over in Wyoming, and then we’d if we
caught a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and at this particular time you caught
a lot of fish out of Hyrum Reservoir, and bring those over and we’d clean those
up and fry those and my wife Ruth would end up making a bunch of potato salad
and other wives would bring, it would be kind of a catchall of everything. We
used to have a marvelous time. And that was a little bit different than what it is
now. The students up here now tend to be pretty much independent, they don’t
tend to help each other a lot. At least that’s the way it seems to me. Of course I’ve
been away from it for pretty long. I retired 19 years ago.
LH:
Wow.
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�JN:
Well, retired is one way of saying it. But I went on emeritus status in 1989 and
then for the next three years I worked pro bono for the university writing
proposals.
LH:
All right.
JN:
So there you go.
LH:
They lure you back.
JN:
The reason I came out here in the first place, I guess, was kind of an interesting
one. I was president of the Forestry Club at the University of Wisconsin in
Milwaukee. And as president it was my responsibility to bring together once a
month a speaker, and one of the speakers that I brought together was, or brought
to the University was the Regional Forester for the US Forest Service in that area,
in the central part of the United States. And after he gave us a talk about how nice
it is to work for the Forest Service and all that sort of stuff, I took him aside and I
said “Where would you suggest would be a good place to go to school in the
forestry or the natural resources area?” And he said, “Well, you ought to consider
my alma mater,” he says, “Utah State.” And he says of the nine regional foresters,
seven of them are Utah State graduates, and the head of the Forest Service in
Washington is also a Utah State graduate.
So I said, “My God.” With that kind of a reputation I’d come out here and go to
school. And I did. Well actually it was a very tiny school. At that time it was, let’s
see. Faculty members, in the Wildlife Department there were three faculty
members. In the Range Science Department there were three faculty members,
and in the Forestry Department there was one, two, three, four faculty members.
And so it was. And then there was a Dean of the College: Dean Turner (Louis
Turner). That has grown into, oh my goodness, I don’t know how many faculty
members we have now, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 or 50, something
like that. And you know a big student component. Actually we were the first
college to produce a doctoral student in the entire university.
LH:
Really?
JN:
Kim Wolfe was the first Ph.D. And he was in the aquatic, he was one of Dr.
Sigler’s students. Bill McConnell was the second Ph.D. earner and I was the third.
And this was in the entire University. So we kind of were pioneers in developing
the graduate program at Utah State University. Oh I should say another mentor of
mine was Stewart Williams who was the Dean of the Graduate School at that
time. He and I became really good friends, and he was a geologist and I’ve always
had a kind of an abiding interesting in geology of this particular area in particular.
And so he took pride in the fact that he was Dean when the first PhDs were
offered by Utah State University and they were offered in our department.
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�LH:
That’s nice.
JN:
High jinks; had a little student high jinks. We did; a lot of students here. But I did
my undergraduate work here. My last two years on it, sophomore and senior as an
undergraduate student. And we always had a battle between the engineers and the
foresters. We called ourselves the foresters at that time. And we’d play all kinds
of high jinks on each other. The engineers who used their engineering talent at
one time turned a bunch of chickens and sheep loose in the old forestry building,
which is now gone, it’s no longer here. And then they bricked up the entrance of
it. This was during the night. And we came there in the morning. We had to break
down the brick walls to get into the building. And then found it was loaded with
sheep and chickens.
And then of course we did the same thing to them. Some things were kind of
cruel. Like the cruelest thing that we did, I wasn’t involved in that because I
couldn’t have done it. But they took a horse in the engineering building; an old
nag that was over at the mink farm, and then killed it in the men’s room. They had
to drag a dead horse out of the building. But those things don’t happen anymore.
LH:
Oh!
JN:
So you got enough?
[Reading question:] Oh, books or writings that influenced the land use.
LH:
Oh yeah.
JN:
Well of course there was always Leopold’s.
LH:
Sand County?
JN:
Well no. He wrote initially a book on wildlife management. [Game Management]
That was the important book actually. The artsy book was his Sand County
Almanac. He did another one that was finished by one of his sons. Moon River
[Round River] I think it was called.
LH:
Oh yeah.
JN:
That was one book that influenced me a lot. Then there was a book on animal
ecology. There were not very much written about ecology at that time. The book
on plant ecology by Üosting from Duke University was available. There was a
Weber and Clements that was written by Weber at the University of Nebraska and
Clements who was part of the Ally, Emerson, Park, Park, and Schmidt book that
was written on animal ecology out of the University of Chicago. And that was
about it.
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�Oh, there was another thing that I did in ecology. I looked into the origins of
ecology on the Utah State University campus. And that was, I looked into our
archives and wrote a little piece on the origin of ecology. [Ecology Center review
documents: USU Special Collections 17.12:63 NO. 20] It turned out that there
was a professor that was hired from Cornell University in 1902 that taught the
first course in ecology on the campus. And it was fairly short lived because he
wasn’t here that long. I think he was here only about three or four years. And then
when he left the course was no longer taught until I think the late teens, when, I
can’t recall his name right now. But he started, he was in range management and
he started and taught a course in plant ecology. And that kind of persisted, I think,
through the years until we got the first dean and then the school of Forest, Range
and Wildlife Management was created in 1926. And the dean of that school later
on became the Chief Forester of the United States. And he was followed by Ed
Cliff who was from Heber City and a graduate of this institution who became the
Chief Forester. (He was the Chief Forester when the Regional Forester told me
that I was, or that this was one of the best places to come because of the
reputation of the Regional Foresters and the Chief Forester.)
And Ed Cliff was an interesting guy. He was a Mormon; he was from Heber City,
Utah, and graduated from this institution when he became the Chief Forester.
Well, he was a forest ranger here first. And he, he and his wife spent their
honeymoon at the Forest Service cabin at Tony Grove. The cabin is still there.
And so actually it’s a historical site now. And it’s still active. It’s still being used
as a, by the Forest Service as a base of operations of one sort or another. But it
was a very primitive thing, you know. They had a wood stove in there that served
as a cook stove, these big wood ranges. When he [Ed Cliff] came back and looked
at, when he was Chief Forester of the United States, and he came back to visit the
ranger [up at Tony Grove] that was present at the time [thinking of his name]. (Oh
god, he’s retired down in New Mexico now. I can’t remember his name either
again.) But anyhow, he happened to be the ranger out there and they had replaced
the wood stove with a gas operated, propane stove and so on. [Chuckles] And
when Ed came out there and he saw this and he said, “That’s unmentionable. You
should not have a gas stove. There’s got to be a wood stove.” And he ordered
them to take the gas out and put the wood stove back in. So it’s still there. It’s a
wood stove and if you want to cook back there you have to cook on the wood
stove.
LH:
That’s awesome.
JN:
There were a lot of colorful people that came out of this institution. Well, many of
them worked here initially as, related to the forest, or they worked on the forest.
In the late 1920s and through the ‘30s the CCC, the Civilian Conservation Corps
was really active here. And a lot of the people that became well known in the field
were part of the CCC operations. Ken Wolfe who earned his first, was the first
Ph.D. granted out of the Utah State University was a bad boy in Chicago. See, he
was from Chicago. He was a bad boy. He was given the choice by the judge to
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�either go to jail or join the CCC and he could come out here and do some work
out here. So he opted to come out here. Well, he not only came out here and went
to work for the CCC, he met his wife out here, got married and when he got into
the service he became a Lieutenant in the service, discharged. And when he was
discharged he came here and earned all three of his degrees here at Utah State
University. And he became a world-renowned virologist, especially in the aquatic
area. He worked out of Leetown, West Virginia [Leetown Science Center]. Wrote
a number of books on virology and was the first to develop a cold water cell line
that they could deal with in the laboratory.
LH:
The bad boy from Chicago.
JN:
The bad boy from Chicago. Yeah. When I started off school here back in the late
40s we were all, all of these students were returned veterans. And it was quite a
different bunch. They all became, upon graduation they all achieved leadership
positions one way or another in the field. We had Bud Phelps was one my costudents, he became Director of the Fish and Game Department here in the state
of Utah, and then later on was Director for Ducks Unlimited.
And Don Smith was a football player here. And he became Director of the Fish
and Game Department here. I think most of the directors of the Fish and Game
Department that we had here were graduates of ours. But then we had [graduates
that became] Directors of the Fish and Game Departments in many other places.
Iowa was another one that was one of our graduates. Ohio was another one that
was one of our graduates. Nevada was . . . he was a graduate. He was a football
player and Director of the Fish and Game Department in Nevada and one of our
graduates. And they had a relatively big impact on the development of educated
natural resource managers in the State.
Up until World War II most of the resource managers that we had in the United
States were basically patronage type people. They’d come up through the ranks as
Fish and Game wardens of one sort or another, or when they went to work for the
Forest Service, why, they were basically field hands to begin with and so on. But
once the programs got started and they started educating people in the scientific
way of managing the resources . . . why . . . A great influx came right after World
War II when the veterans came back and the GI Bill allowed them to get an
education in this particular area. So the field, the Fish and Game Departments, the
Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, all of those Federal agencies
and state agencies became permeated with our graduates. And we were, Utah
State was one of the biggest institutions developing these. There were other
institutions that were doing the same thing but I think as far as really making an
impact early on, Utah State was probably one of the biggest contributors in this
particular area. So that was nice.
LH:
That is nice.
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�JN:
It was nice to be part of it, too.
LH:
Yeah. Well.
JN:
That was kind of rambling but…
LH:
I like rambling. I’m sure I get the good stuff. Well it’s all good. Thank you so
much. I think we’ve certainly touched on all this. This is such a rich, rich
interview. Thank you.
JN:
Well, I’ll be happy to go over any part of it with you and clean it up somewhat if
you want me to.
LH:
That would be great. And, well, I don’t know that I’ll be doing the transcribing. I
hope to a little bit. But no matter how it happens you’ll get a CD so you can listen
to yourself and the transcript as well.
JN:
Okay. And make necessary changes or additions.
LH:
Yeah. Sure
JN:
Sure.
LH:
Thank you. Well then I will sign off of this. It is nice. It is 11:00 and closing the
first interview with John. Thank you.
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�
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John Neuhold interview, 11 April 2008, and transcription
Description
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The interview includes some personal background information, but mostly discusses John Neuhold's professional life and education. He also talks about his mentors and work in Wisconsin, but mostly his work in Utah, including a project with the Deseret Livestock Company, working with fisheries, dealing with impact of various activities on rivers, including the construction on US Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, development of departments in Natural Resources at Utah State University and the politics of natural resource management and the legislature. The interview also references the Mossbacks group of retired natural scientists.
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Neuhold, John M.
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Hilliard, Lyra
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Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Neuhold, John M.--Interviews
Neuhold, John M.--Family
Neuhold, John M.--Career in Ecology
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Plant ecology--Research
Fishery management--Research--Utah
Lake ecology--Research--Utah
Stream ecology--Research--Utah
Utah State Agricultural College--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews
College teachers--Utah--Logan--Interviews
Utah State University. Ecology Center--History
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction
United States Highway 89--Design and construction
Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Environmental aspects--Utah--Logan Canyon
Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon
Recreation areas--Utah--Logan Canyon
Environmental toxicology--Research--Utah
Water--Pollution--Law and legislation--United States
Water quality--Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Public lands--Utah
Environmental policy--Utah
Neuhold, John M.--Friends and associates
Fishes--Diseases--Law and legislation--Utah
Utah State University--Students--Anecdotes
Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae
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Oral history
Interviews
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Logan River (Utah)
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Bear River (Utah-Idaho)
Rich County (Utah)
Uinta Mountains (Utah and Wyo.)
Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Wellsville Mountain Wilderness (Utah)
Navajo Lake (Utah)
Panguitch Lake (Utah)
Spawn Creek (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Blacksmith Fork Canyon (Utah)
Right Hand Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6
Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 6
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Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/e043b6437fe21a9b953f92381903b6ef.mp3
b402d958140ac2ac17780e155c737cd4
http://highway89.org/files/original/b26ba0bf286f3df603e1dbd3ada0d5d0.pdf
191f30876a7d6afb212f7828b447a85e
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Jim Kennedy
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Quinney Library, College of Natural Resources, USU
May 4, 2009 & May 5, 2009
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Radio Shack, CTR-122
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Barbara Middleton 25August 2009; Randy Williams, 12 July 2011;
Becky Skeen, Fall 2012
Brief Description of Contents: Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and
feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest
Service and as a professor), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and
worldview.
Reference:
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JK = Jim Kennedy
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops in
conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with brackets.
Tape four was never turned into the USU Special Collections for deposit or transcription. At the
end of the transcript is Professor Kennedy’s 2005 CV.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 3: A]
BM:
This is Barbara Middleton, and we are here on the USU campus with Jim Kennedy on
Monday, April 4th. It’s about 2:00 in the afternoon, and we’re in the Quinney Natural
Resources Library, recording for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project.
So, welcome Jim.
JK:
Thank you.
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�BM:
Why don’t you go ahead and start off with your –
JK:
Do you just want me to follow the script? Pretty much, until I get down to my – yeah, let’s
just do that.
BM:
Why don’t you start with your full name and then a biographical sketch?
JK:
I’m James Joseph Kennedy, III. I was born in Philadelphia in 1940; it was about four weeks
after Hitler invaded the Benelux Countries. My first memories are of the city. I was a first
child with my grandparents. And the only person that wasn’t involved in the war effort was
my grandmother, who pretty much raised me. My grandfather worked in the steel mills and
was a Labor Union organizer (which is deep in my DNA, in my social values and the way I
look at the world). My father was in charge of building altimeters, eventually for B29s and
RCA. My mother was the executive secretary for a firm that suddenly became hugely
important in developing fire extinguishing foam systems for aircraft carriers.
I remember when the war ended. I remember the black shades on the windows. I remember
the sense of, you know, everyone working hard to do something to defeat evil. The first
Christmas present I can remember asking for at age three – excuse me, age four – was a
wagon, so I could go collect tin and paper and recycle stuff to help defeat evil.
But after the war was over we moved up to central Pennsylvania. My favorite place in
Philadelphia were always the parks, even when they put gun emplacements up on Fernhill
Park, next to Midvale Steel in Philadelphia (you know, in case of supposed bombing or
attack or anything on that important industry that proved a large portion of the metal for the
Philadelphia naval yards). I always spent time in the park, even when they tried to keep
people out of that. I bartered with the guards to let me go in at certain times in that restricted
territory, just to be out where it was green, and trees and birds, and even garter snakes in
that part of Philadelphia. My favorite place to go was to go to the zoo. I always loved the
wild lands.
And so after the war when my father had to change jobs and move up to central
Pennsylvania, we moved on to a farm. We rented the farm and the family (a huge family,
with probably an average of maybe 7th grade education, with about their nine children)
rented the land, 300 acres of the farm that we were living on, renting the house on. They had
a smaller, less prosperous adjacent farm, and that wild land and those fields, and also the
open-heartedness of these (and in no disrespect say “simple”) people.
Probably one of the persons that had one of the greatest impacts on my life is still alive at
probably 95; one of the young men there, never married. He took to us kids and we followed
him, he started paying us a pittance to work for him. I learned never to whine, you know,
never to complain; never to blame anyone. It just didn’t benefit you. I learned a work ethic. I
learned that’s how you got respect from adults, by doing what you’re told without whining
and doing it well. But also being able to have a sense of humor and irony and fun at what
you were doing. And a person that probably didn’t graduate from junior high taught me that
as much as anybody. And also, just how to live off the land – which they did legally and
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�illegally with great skill; had been doing so for generations. I don’t think any of those
people, other than maybe a brother that was strapped into the war had ever been more than
50 miles from where they were born. It was a very rural, rural area.
Someone once described Pennsylvania as Philadelphia to the east, Pittsburgh to the west,
and Appalachia in between; and I was raised in Appalachia.
BM:
What was the town?
JK:
It was called Montgomery, Pennsylvania. Then we moved a few miles to less of a middle
town (though all those towns were middle towns, and would now be called “rust bucket”
areas). Then we moved into town, bought a house. That was the first house my parents
owned, and that would have been 15 years of marriage (I just turned 12), and we moved to
that little town. We had been going over there to the Catholic Church, so I knew some
Catholic kids there. Our graduation class was only 49, of which three of us got PhDs, and
about a third of us went to college (which is really astounding when I think of it).
But when I moved, it was very much a small town. Everybody knew you almost to a fault,
and especially even a smaller subset of our community of 2500 people within a church and a
school. But it was a good place to grow up. I was, again, much closer to the floodplain and
the tributaries of the Susquehanna River – which was just like, you know, Huckleberry Finn,
Tom Sawyer’s playground and growing up an adventure place for me.
I spent a lot of time in the forest and woods. I always liked getting up early in the morning,
even if there weren’t cows to milk, or traps to check. But I was always involved in trapping,
hunting, fishing and getting up early in the morning. I was an ADHD kid, so I was
hyperactive, easily bored, short attention span, hated being cooped up inside of buildings
(whether it was for church, for family reunions or for school). And by getting out early in
the morning and releasing some energy and feeding my spirit and having some control over
my life independently of the adult world, I was ready to face the adult world at 8:45 when
the school bell rang. And I found it was wonderful therapy for me. So I always went to the
woods, and went to the fields and the streams.
BM:
You mentioned trapping. Would you tell us a little bit about that?
JK:
Well it’s as brutal of a relationship as you can have with nature, maybe with the exception
of bull fighting. And at the time I knew that. One of the earliest things I had to wrestle with
as a child was my sensitivity to animals and lots of stuff that wasn’t okay for boys in the
‘40s and ‘50s to have. If you brought up as a topic it was usually shunned and ridiculed or
laughed at, so you rarely did that. The only people you might be able to talk to with were
girls, and that wasn’t cool at that age in that era either. And so I remember that I never, ever
missed going out to check my trap line. I remember one time my mother trying to lock me
in when I had a 103 fever. The chances of finding a muskrat in the traps that I set, the way
we set them alive after five minutes when the trap would bite them and they would dive in
the water for protection, they would drown; maybe one out of 20 of the muskrats we took
out of our traps were alive, which was increased torture. I always considered that really
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�important, and mortal sin to me would’ve been, you know – some people do not check a
trap line for two, three, or four days. That, to me, was just unpardonable. So in a perverse
way it did develop a certain ethic. And you know, my feelings that 4:45 or 5:10 in the
morning when it was raining outside wasn’t the issue, damn it. You had a job to do and if
you want to engage in such a brutal activity, you had to have at least some standards
involved in the process. A lot of the animals we were trapping had bounties on them, such
as fox and weasel.
When I first started trapping, at probably age 10, the state said they were bad and gave you
money to prove it – there was a certain sense of – you know everything was, you know,
most beliefs were accepted with zero tolerance. This was it, period; whether it was your
being educated in your religion, your politics or in school. And if you had feelings against
that, especially as a man, you were supposed to get a hold of them. And the fact that
shooting animals, or trapping them especially, would bother me and continued to do so was
troublesome to me. And I thought somehow that I was wrong. Most the other adult males
and boys didn’t seem to have that problem at all.
But I loved the mornings. I must say that I probably enjoyed trapping more than anything; I
was usually out by myself. And later as I became a teenager and we got automobiles with
my trapping buddy (we’re still very close) – he went right into the steel mills after high
school, and we still talk and respect and love each other very much. So for about three years
I did it with a person who I became very, very close to. Plus it was earning money, which
was really important. And earning money was a badge of manhood, and adulthood, and
responsibility and accomplishment. And we earned money from it; we were very, very good
at it. And we worked hard at it, and fast, and checked our traps (you know, we were out
there twice a day). The number of animals we caught per trap, per year was astounding;
maybe the average would be three and for us it was 30!
BM:
Wow.
JK:
Because we moved them everyday, you know if they didn’t catch anything. And moved fast
through a stream, and then came back over it a month later, for example, just to get a high
probably sets with your traps. And I hunted and fished; all of that stuff as well.
BM:
Just in terms of setting your traps, you’re saying they’re in wet areas?
JK:
Well, obviously fox and weasel weren’t; but for mink, raccoon and primarily muskrat.
Muskrat were the most abundant, the easiest to catch and they were, you know you could
average $1.50 per pelt – which today would probably be $10.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And if you caught, you know, 500 of them – well, we’d catch about 350 a season. So you
know, multiply that times $10 – for some kids to do something. Well we’d get 350 when we
had a car, with about 45-50 traps. And of course you had to skin them; you know, skin them,
scrape them, cure them. And it was a lot of work, and a lot of effort, and a lot of skill. There
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�was a blood and blister intimacy with everything that you did in that rural environment in
the ‘40s and ‘50s; whether it was recreation, whether it was work, whether it was
hunting/fishing, and whether it was you getting paddled by the teachers or something, you
know. It was much more intimate and direct than today.
BM:
The money that you earned, was that to help support your family?
JK:
Well, saving money for college, so indirectly yes. But also, you know anything you wanted
you had to – anything extra other than Christmas presents and birthday presents – you had to
get for yourself. And if you broke a birthday present, you know, that was tough. You had to
replace it. And so it was you know, the money was important. When we lived on the farm
we weren’t that wealthy. I was the first Kennedy in my family to go to college. I bet you I
killed and we ate cottontails and squirrels, probably 200 year, for the family. That’s quite a
lot of protein. In fact a columnist used to call squirrels “meat that grew on trees.” On the
other side of the Mississippi, here’s a rodent that didn’t hibernate, and didn’t burrow under
the snow like mice – it was always up in trees, it was always visible, and it kept a huge
number of families from starving over the winters. They were always abundant.
BM:
How did you prepare it?
JK:
Oh you know, you usually par-boil them, and then roast them, bake them. You can make
squirrel stew; they’re very tough meat, but they’re very good, very succulent. It’s unlike
rabbit, you know. Rabbits are easier to vanish; squirrels are very muscular, but very good
protein and very good food. And woodchucks, you know. All sorts of stuff we’d eat, and
lots of it. And of course we’d always kill a couple of deer. So we had huge pit freezers, old
ice cream freezers that would hold three times the amount that a normal freezer would
today, that we would keep in a special room because they took up so much space.
BM:
And by a pit freezer, you mean a deep freeze?
JK:
Yeah, that’s right, yeah. And so I grew up – my brothers didn’t – but I grew up as the oldest,
you know, doing a lot of that providing for the family. Then we moved more to a town
where they cut grass and worked in grocery stores (all of which I did too) in the summer.
But I worked just about every day, and with a trap on you worked – it was weekends and
everything.
BM:
Sounds like having a dairy cow.
JK:
Yeah. And I milked cows by hand when we lived on the farm, until I was 12. And then I
worked on farms in the summer, but by then the farms that employed us were milking with
automatic equipment, and milking 100 cows a day; big, big operations. And I liked that too.
I like the smell of fresh hay, I like using my muscles, I like being out in the sun, I like being
on the farm. By then, using heavy equipment before you could drive at 16 you could be
driving powerful machinery, and very dangerous equipment on the farm; and I liked that. In
fact, if my father had owned a decent farm, I might have never gone to college or certainly
wouldn’t have left afterwards.
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�I liked the rhythm of farm work, and I like the smells and the connections and the meaning,
the depth, and the – I don’t want to call it spirituality, but the meditativeness of it all. It was
very meditative work; I never had more time to think than when I was plowing. You don’t
have that much time to think around a university. Much more time to think when you’re
doing something – all you had to do is every five minutes just lift the plow, spin it around
and drop it. I loved plowing at night, in the spring with the odors and the smells and the pull
of the plow. Before I left the farm in Montgomery at age 12, they wouldn’t let me around
heavy equipment. But the farmers, they were so poor, they didn’t have much equipment. I
used the last two draft horses they had in a couple of generations, they could remember the
names of all the draft horses: Tony and Burt because they were safe. And I would harrow
corn with Tony and Burt and do things like that, that were slow and boring – while they
would be on the expensive equipment, and the high status equipment, the tractor (and the
more dangerous equipment).
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And the smell of horses, and being around horses that weighed then, probably ten times as
much as I did as a skinny ten year old. And that gentleness and that power and that
predictability and that loyalty: both literally and figuratively. Draft horses are, you know,
deep in my memories – symbolically as well as just fond memories. When people talk about
ice skating and horses for fun – I just associate that with work, you know. Once the ice
would freeze on the Susquehanna River, I’d go out and I’d skate five miles before school,
just checking the muskrat traps through the ice. So ice skating and horses, that was work
(not un-fond memories), and of course trucks too. And now trucks are these, you know,
“boy toys.” You know, I can remember pickup trucks in the ’40s that were rough, nasty,
uncomfortable, and there were dozens of parts on those trucks that have developed a taste
for human blood; they would bite your fingers around the tailgates, and they were sharp, and
nasty and mean! Nothing cozy about a bloody truck.
Well and there’s nothing cozy about Holsteins either, and a measure or a mark of becoming
an urban world is how people romanticize Holsteins. You know, after the first 10% of their
life Holsteins aren’t very playful, you know, it’s hard to have much of a relationship with
them. They just line up and you pull the milk out of them, and then shovel away all their
crap and put it in the manure spreader in the spring (which was really back-breaking work),
shovel the food into them. And most of it became manure; about 5% of all the silage and
hay you’ve worked so hard to store up for them and feed them, ended up in milk. Most of it
ended up in back-breaking feces to haul out and put on the field. But you know you learned
the rhythm of working a fork and using your back and spinning your body. And I must say
when we’d come back from Sunday Mass often, as a kid in the winter when the cows were
in underneath the barn in a (mostly) covered barnyard –
BM:
Bank barns?
JK:
Yeah. It was a big – you know Pennsylvania barns – this was a serious barn. There were a
couple of cows, probably 30, they milked by hand. And I’d put some fresh straw down and
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�bring them over on the south side where there would be a window; and you know, they
would plop down and I’d lie against the cows and read – they generate so much heat.
There’s never nothing going on inside a cow’s belly. I mean it is like New York traffic at
noon! I mean there is bubbling, and gurgling, and gas, and belching; they are always
chewing, and farting, and gurgling. And it’s really kind of content to just lay on Sunday,
when you didn’t have to work (until you had to milk them by the time the sun went down).
When it would be sleeting and nasty outside, to lie against a cow and read; and I would do
that.
BM:
Your comments and your stories are so sensuous in a way that is not just milking the cow,
but everything associated with it. You know, it’s no wonder you have such connections with
natural resources, with the kinds of feelings and emotions that you have in just explaining
life on the farm.
JK:
Um-hmm.
BM:
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it described quite that way.
JK:
Well, even milking cows by hand – I mean I still have the forearms of a hand cow-milker or
a piano player. That’s about the two ways you really get gripping forearms that way.
There’s almost nothing physical that I ever would shut down on than milking. You can only
milk a certain point, and then your hands would cramp up. You’d go in for breakfast and
you couldn’t hold a spoon. Your hands would just be knotted. And that would be on the first
cow and a half or two cows; it takes incredible grip and strength to hold and strip those
teats. And if you’ve ever looked closely to the back of a cow – the hind, where the hams
meet the stomach cavity, there’s a piece of skin, and you can pull that down and put your
head up underneath there when it’s really cold. And you can put your head up right next to a
cow, and of course your ear is right next to its stomach –
BM:
Right.
JK:
And you really, it’s like listening to the earth’s core. I mean, seriously. There’s just a lot –
with all the fermentation that occurs in the digestive process, and all the double, triple
chewing, you know, and all the gases (methane gases) are created by that process. Cows
really – a cow is never quiet. Gurgling and it’s kind of interesting. And it was kind of
meditative; you could hear the milk hitting the can: bing, bam, bam. And then the milk
would fill up and it would change tune. And your head would be warm; you’d be against
this animal that (some of them you had to put kickers on to milk by hand).
BM:
What was that?
JK:
They were chain kickers – you would put them around the back two legs, you’d just wrap
them around. It was kind of a clamp that was on their hamstring, their Achilles tendon, if
you will. You put it on a clamp and you just wrap the chain around. And it was loose, but if
they kicked, it thwarted that; it stopped that.
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�And I worked on farms during my teenage years, even though I could’ve worked in grocery
stores for half the time and as much money. And I worked with some real jerks too, on some
farms. Men had damaged little boys inside them that were just jerks; weren’t happy, weren’t
content, weren’t peaceful. And even though they had the potential – they weren’t inherently
evil or vicious if you gave them the benefit of the doubt – by their behavior they often
looked that way. I still liked working out with my body, rather than working in a grocery
store. And I liked the smells and feels out there, compared to being in the grocery store, or
in a garage, or in the mills (which money drove me into when I started going to college).
And I worked in the mills – you know cabinet mills, with all the smell of lacquer and
sawdust, all the noise and toxic you know, steel mills with all the danger and noise and
banging. And that I never, never liked. But I could make money; I could make serious
money there.
I didn’t start out in Forestry, you know. Being the first Kennedy to go to college, I wanted to
be an artist, but my parents wouldn’t hear of it; especially my mother who was very
emotional, and very insecure, and very status-driven, and upwardly mobile (what the
neighbors think). They want me to be a doctor or lawyer; when I first said I liked to be an
artist, you know, “Glory be to God! Jesus, Mary and Joseph you’re never going to make any
money, you’re going to be living with some Protestant girl in Greenwich Village you’re not
married with!” You know – I wouldn’t do that. “You’re going to be broke! We’re not going
to work our fingers to the bone to send you to be some artist.” And I said, “Mom, I can be
an art teacher until I make it.” “No, no, no!”
So I had a really close friend to the family, unlike some of the men that I worked for that I
told you about – but he was a dentist in Scranton, Pennsylvania (we called him “Uncle” but
he wasn’t, he was just a good friend of the family). He was sweet; he was one of the first
men that was really sweet and seemed to be okay with it and everyone else was – he was
just a nice guy. And his son didn’t want to be a dentist and he said, “Be a dentist Jimmy, and
you know, you’ll come on by the time I can start you in my practice; you’ll give me some
time off and I’ll just give you the practice after you work there for five or six years.” You
know, it was job security and a good income and a house in suburbia, but I was having
nightmares about putting my hand in people’s warm, red mouth. Now I’m an adolescent and
I’m sure Freud would have a field day with that!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
But I would wake up full of sweat, just terrified, thinking, “Oh my god! I’m going to be
reaching in mouths all day!” Inside a dentist’s office always smelled terrible, and you cause
pain to people. And so I went up to Penn State to interview, and they gave me (this would
have been the summer of ’58), they gave me the test of what I would be good at. It was this
pimple-faced (probably Master’s) grad student psychologist, you know, that has to do the
grunt work after the meeting with the parents. But my parents were such ‘40s product, you
know, early 19th century product, and [he] looked official; they gave them the benefit of the
doubt, to a fault.
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�So he’s looking through my results and said, “You don’t score very high here, being a
dentist. Why do you want to be a dentist?” And I said, “Well, I really don’t.” And he said
(he was very official at first), and then he sent my parents out and then he asked me that
question. He said, “Why are you doing it?” And I said, “Well, my parents want me to and
I’d be working, blah, blah, blah.” And he said, “But are you going to be happy doing that?”
I said, “No, I don’t think so, but I’ll just spend the weekends hunting and fishing and doing
stuff to compensate for that.” And he said, “Well what job would you really like to do?”
And I said, “Well, I’d like to be a forester.” And he said, “Well, look right here, you score
very high on the success chart for that.” And he said, “We have a very good forestry
program here.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And he said, “Well, I tell you what. Why don’t we
talk to your parents?” And so my parents came in and he brought that up, my mother, “Oh,
glory be to god! He’s going to work out in a fire tower and be living with bears, and we’ll
never see him, he’ll never make any money, he’ll just be a hermit and I’ll never be a
grandmother!”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
But my father said, “Well, why do you want to do that Jim?” And I said, “I think I’ll be
happy.” “Happy? Happy, what’s happy have to do with it, for god’s sakes?” [Laughing] So,
the guy said, “Listen, I have to take a break.” So I remember we went out at the HUB, you
know – I think it was the Hetzel Student Union –
BM:
Hetzel Student Union Building.
JK:
And we leaned on the railing, looking down, across campus towards the town, you know, in
that direction (I remember the direction we were looking at, down towards DU, which was
the fraternity I was in when I went to school there). And dad said, “Why do you want to do
it?” I said, “I think it will make me happy, Dad.” And he said, “Well, happy hmm?” He said,
“Well, I haven’t been very happy in what I’ve done most of my life, so if you want to do it,
I’ll support you. I’ll manage Mom.”
And that was the most intimate – my father was very spoiled, very self-centered; the only
child of an Irish immigrant (she didn’t get married until she was in her 30s, and been a
domestic until that point); spoiled him rotten. But he was a nice guy, but you had to – one of
the reasons that I learned to hunt and fish is that was the only way I could spend time with
him. You had to do what he wanted to do. And long before I could carry a gun, I was his
beagle. I skinned all the animals, cleaned the fish, you know, take care of his fly lines, dry
them. I mean I was his page, you know if you will. And he, you know, for a gentleman that
was quite appropriate. But we did spend time together and we got to like and know each
other. But that’s one of the only times where I really thought he understood me and came to
my rescue. So I switched into Forestry and never regretted it.
Although I was getting into Forestry because I thought I could escape a complex world by
working in the trees and not having to deal with people and feelings, and check on my trap
line on the way to mark timber, or something out west. Seldom would be heard a
discouraging word. I never knew I would have to work with people; I was terrified of
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�speaking. I was pretty insecure too. I was running away from things getting into forestry, as
much as I was drawn to, you know, thinking it would be a good thing to do; it would be a
noble area that I would be involved in public service.
BM:
So tell me what it was like studying forestry at that time, in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s?
JK:
It was very much like getting ready for your confirmation. You know, you were taught
Forestry like the Baltimore catechism as a Catholic. This is truth, get it dummy, and don’t
forget it. Fire is bad; you put it out by 10 o’clock, end of story. No debate; there was no
room for ambiguity, much less a sense of humor with my professors or imagination. And the
image of what they were training you for was a driver’s license, rather than a learner’s
permit. I mean, there was none of this continuous learning imagery and what we talk about
now, today, in any stage of education: imagination, taking risks, confrontation, all that stuff
– it’s more talked about than practiced. And it still isn’t as embraced among colleagues as
much as you would think it would with all the lather about it. And I resisted that, you know.
I wasn’t a very good student. I was a C+ student until my junior year, when I said, “To hell
with it! I’m killing myself; I’m working 60 hours a week, you know. I’m smoking a couple
of packs of cigarettes a day; I’m not having any fun.” By the end of my sophomore year we
went to summer camp in central Pennsylvania, I still had yet to go work for my first forestry
job. I’d got back and work –
[End Tape 1 side A, begin Tape 1 side B]
BM:
Side 2, with Jim Kennedy. Sophomore year.
JK:
Yeah, I said, “The heck with it. I’m going to join a fraternity; I’m going to start having fun.”
I went out for lacrosse. I cut back my studying to 40 hours a week, you know, and my grade
point average – I started dating girls. My grade point average jumped. Probably jumped
from a 2.3, was my grade point average at the end of my sophomore year – which was 60%
of the total credits in those days, the way that they would cram so much in the first two
preparatory years – and my grade point average jumped to 3. And I started feeling better
about myself. I think my colleagues, my fraternity brothers voted me into leadership
positions: as Rush Chairman, Social Chairman, Vice President (that I didn’t think I could
do, didn’t want, and was stunned why they were so stupid to entrust me to do that!).
[Laughing]
BM:
[Laughing] What fraternity is this?
JK:
Delta Upsilon.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
And I did well. And that probably saved me more than anything. And ironically, rather than
my grade point average going down for feeling better about myself, it went up. I lettered as
Lacrosse Manager at Penn State my senior year, for a wonderful coach – Pensick. Pensick
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�was the Lacrosse coach; lovely young guy. Probably he was only about 28; I really loved
and respected him. And I didn’t feel that way about most of my university professors; they
were pretty rigid, humorless. I don’t know. Pennsylvania then, forest products were not the
values of Pennsylvania forests in the ‘50s, and they behaved like it was. They were still
treating them like a tree farm, and I knew better than that. And it was no spirituality about it,
far from it. That was considered touchy-feely crap. And so again, even at that stage I
couldn’t think openly and discuss openly my relationship with forests.
BM:
So how did – with Delta Upsilon –
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
How did that start to change? I mean, were there mentors there? Were there people that you
looked up to, or?
JK:
I had some good brothers (as well as some real jerks). You know, we went through a brutal
pledge process a humiliating pledge process. But you know I knew how to do that stuff. And
as a result, afterwards when we went into the Forest Service and all the male rituals that
would, you know, intimidate and anger some of our male students (and especially the
females), I knew that stuff. I knew it didn’t last forever; I knew it was, you know, kind of
cheap rituals that males tended to do in initial bonding activities. So I went through that.
But no, it gave me a community in a huge, impersonal place like Penn State. And you know
how important that is. And I think it did that, and it gave me a sense of confidence that I
could be as good as these guys in almost anything, and they all came from (seemed) better
backgrounds than me. I came from as lower-class as probably, a lower class than 80% of my
fraternity brothers and pledges. And yet, they thought I was more than okay. And you know,
so for leadership and confidence, that was a real boost to me. As again, I wasn’t a very good
undergraduate student.
There was one professor at Penn State who saved me, by the name of Bob McDermott, who
appreciated a sense of humor. Most of my professors did not like being questioned, where
Bob just loved questions and kept, you know – like my educational method is just begging
students, encouraging students, teasing them, confronting them to open up and get involved
in some kind of a dance, rather than sitting around like a bunch of toads, taking notes. And
he became one of my champions and he got me back into a master’s program at Penn State.
My grades, even my success in the last two years hardly pulled me up. And a lot of the
professors still identified me as a trouble-maker and an annoyance, where Bob respected
me. And he had clout – he was Assistant Department Head by then – and he got me back
into, after three years working for the Forest Service in Oregon, got me back in.
Now the first summer I had was my junior year. It was at Rogue River National Forest, on
the ranger district where I became permanent. And when we came back, driving back (two
of us in a – it would have been a 1953 Oldsmobile) we plotted a course that brought us
through Cache Valley. We were driving six hours on, and I ran into two Utah State
graduates: one was a summer job person; the other one had graduated three or four years,
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�five years ahead of me and was a permanent employee on the district I was in in Oregon.
And so I heard about Utah State University and about Ted Daniels stories and everything.
And so my buddy was asleep, and I had such low expectations of Utah – when we came
over from Tremonton we didn’t take the cutoff, so we went to Brigham City.
When I came up Sardine Canyon, I was trying to wake my buddy up. It was in September
and there was a little bit of snow up in the high country and the aspen had changed. And I
had expected sage brush and salt flats, and I was stunned! You know, we had just come
across the Snake River Valley in southern Idaho (which is not nearly as impressive as this
mountain range). And then I saw the university and I drove around and I couldn’t wake my
buddy up, he was out of it. We, by that time, probably been driving 20 hours from Crater
Lake. And then I went up the canyon, it was a beautiful day. I was just astounded at how
gorgeous it was. And there was water running in the streets, water running down the canyon.
And then when we finally got to Bear Lake, it was in all it’s blue glory, I finally pulled over
at a view point and got Bob up – put a cigarette in his mouth to wake him up!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And I said, “Look at this!” And so I just thought, “If I ever have a chance to come back to
this place, man I am going to take it!” So I think of that, oh, 10-20 times a year. And here I
am retiring from Utah State University. But it really had a profound impact on me.
I remember when I was back about three or four years later, after I got a permanent job on
the Rogue River and then I was back at Penn State. We were sitting around in an Ag-Econ
class, after an Ag-Econ class a bunch of went to get a cup of coffee at the lounge in the
building and we were talking about great places. And I said, “Bear Lake, Utah.” And there
was a student there whose parents were raspberry farmers, who was from Utah State (he was
getting his Master’s degree). And I remember how he perked up, because we hadn’t talked
about much of anything – he was a pretty quiet guy. “I live there!” You know, yeah. So I
fell in love with this part of the country.
But I got a Forestry degree also so I could come out west, you know. My class of people
never came out west unless you were getting paid; never went to Europe unless you were
wearing a military uniform, you know. So I wanted – as much as my imagination could take
me, in terms of seeing a part of the world – it was coming to the west. I mean I dreamed
about the west from all the hunting magazines.
In sixth grade I was fortunate to have a teacher – she never married – in the summer she
would come out west (by herself or with a friend) and tour the parks. And she subscribed to
Arizona Highways, which in 1954 is colorful and is imaginative and as beautiful a magazine
as you could hold in your hands. It was gorgeous! And I would just dream; and if I did my
work quick, and early, and as prudently and fast (which I could do when I concentrated), it
was a little nook that had cushions on the floor. You could get up and go back there and read
what you wanted to read. And she’d always have her magazines there. So that had an
influence on me wanting to come out west. And I decided that by, well before I was 12.
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�BM:
Hmm. And that would be probably original art on those Arizona Highways because color –
JK:
Well it was color photography, it was incredible.
BM:
Oh was it? Okay.
JK:
Oh, for the ‘40s you couldn’t see the color photography. I mean National Geographic was
still all black and white.
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
You know Saturday Evening Post didn’t have nearly the – Life magazine didn’t have as
many. It was great color photography.
BM:
Hmm.
JK:
Called Arizona Highways.
BM:
Absolutely amazing.
JK:
It was really great. And so that just haunted me, those pictures haunted me. And of course
all the sunlight and red rock; such a different country. So I wanted to come out west. And I
never considered a job any place else; I was offered a job for Pennsylvania State Forests and
that was nice, but that was backup.
BM:
And you mentioned Rogue River National Forest and you said Crater Lake. Is that the
Crater Lake District then?
JK:
Well it was up next to Crater Lake. The Rogue River goes down stream and then it jumps
over to Ashland and places like, yeah Ashland and it jumps around, like a lot of those
forests do. The supervisors’ office was Medford; our first son was born in that hospital in
Medford. I just loved that forest out there. There were times I felt guilty. I was a bachelor
for the first year out there and it was just wonderful.
I was the youngest Scout Master in Oregon and we had about 12 loggers’ kids (maybe one
or two might have been Forest Service boys). And you know I’d take them out at least three
times a month in the summer. We roamed all through those hills and it was just wonderful to
work, wonderful to be there. A bit lonely because Kathy and I had been pinned before I
went out there. And then she came out for a year. And I took a year’s leave without pay
(educational leave). Happily they kept us on medical insurance because we had our second
child. We didn’t realize we were pregnant with our second child or we might not have left.
But I went back to get a Master’s degree in Outdoor Recreation because I could see that was
important.
BM:
And that was at Penn State?
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�JK:
Um-hmm. I could see that very few people knew what they were doing, and even less of
them seemed to care about the value of recreation. I realized, working on the Rogue River,
that I knew lots about silviculture and ecology but very little about people. And that was
beginning to fascinate me. Plus my girlfriend and wife was a psychologist and brought out
all of her Freud books and everything about psychology – which I never would have read as
a forester. But there was not much to read in that little logging town of Prospect, Oregon
(there was about 800 people): one bar, one grocery store, and one gas station, and a high
school. And I just got interested in that.
Then in the ‘50s and ‘60s as far into the social sciences you were allowed to go in natural
resources was economics and micro-economics, at that – which is even less involved in
people than macro or developmental economics. So I didn’t really want to be an economist,
but I was so naïve, I didn’t know that. You know, so I just dutifully followed – and
economics is so demanding with all the mathematics and conceptual thinking that you didn’t
have much time to wonder whether this was it when you working so hard just to understand
it. But by the time I got my PhD I was ready to branch out more. Even though I got my PhD
in Economics, I wouldn’t have gone to Virginia Tech (it was called VPI then) unless I
trusted my major professor; and we had a verbal agreement that he’d let me take Planning
and Sociology and other courses, which he did.
BM:
Um-hmm. And who was that professor?
JK:
That was Larry Davis, who I ended up talking him into coming out to an interview at Utah
State in my last year and a half of my PhD program. When the dean was hounding him to
apply and come out for an interview, he said, “Who in the hell wants to go to Utah?” I said,
“Larry! Logan!” I was just passionate in these descriptions in what a great place it was. And
then he gets up – we’re in a Rough Rider bar in Washington National Airport – and he
walks out into the hall and calls Thad Box at Utah State. And I’m sitting there looking at our
two beer mugs going, “You dolt! Here you are talking your major professor into going out
to interview. He’s going to leave you! What the hell’s going to happen? This is really poor
career planning.”
But we loved and respected each other, even when I was a grad student. And our families
were very, very close. I’m coming back through here in July to go up to his and his wife’s
50th wedding anniversary at Flathead Lake. Ironically, they live in Spokane, not far from
where our son lives. Because our kids were raised together; our kids are as close to their
kids as, you know, as either family’s cousins. We spent a lot of time together. Even when a
lot of his colleagues and my fellow grad students said, “How do you pull this off?” You
know, and it was the old ROTC dichotomous, mechanistic thinking: you don’t shoot and
fraternize with the troops, especially if you’re going to send them out to battle – whether it’s
with a machine gun or standing up in front of your dissertation committee, you know!
[Laughing] You couldn’t mix rationality with feelings. Which is just dumb, and we never
bought into that. We’ve always been close and he was a very tough – he had four PhD
students and only two of us made it through.
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�BM:
Whoa.
JK:
Yeah. That was pretty standard in those days; the survival rate was not that great.
BM:
So what year are we talking about when you finally finished your PhD?
JK:
That would’ve been ’69. I was on the faculty there for two years then came out here.
BM:
You came directly to Utah State from there?
JK:
Yeah. And I’ve never gone any place else. Now eight of the 38-39 years I’ve been at Utah
State, I’ve been out of here; and usually on foreign assignments. So it’s given us an
opportunity to go see other parts of the world and come back to your country and your
university different than when you left. And seeing the place you’re returning to differently,
for better or worse.
BM:
What are some of those places you visited?
JK:
Well, the first sabbatical was a year with the New Zealand Forest Service, on a national
New Zealand fellowship. Then I got a Fulbright at Trinity College, Dublin; and that was the
last year that we were together as a family. Both of our sons were students and Kathy was a
research assistant. The university started in 1605 – oh excuse me, 1590. So that’s about 15
years before Jamestown Colony. And it feels that way. It feels like going to school in the
Vatican: ancient university, wonderful place. And a wonderful city – in ’83 Ireland was still
very much a peasant society. They called it “Dublin town” then, and it felt like a town. (As
did Washington D.C. when we first started going there in the ‘60s, before it became so big,
fast, impersonal.) But, no it was a wonderful place to be.
And after that I went to the Wageningen University in the Netherlands in ’85. Then I did a
sabbatical – I was a special assistant to Mike Dombeck with the BLM. Then they asked me
to stay another year, so they just bought out my contract. Then we went back to Wageningen
for my last sabbatical, for a year. In I think it was something like ’03 or ’05 – something like
that.
BM:
How do you spell that university?
JK:
W-A-G-E-N-I-N-G-E-N. It’s Wageningen. The “g” is a [makes guttural sound].
Wageningen.
BM:
And in all these places, as far as a sabbatical, was it primarily economics that you were
working on?
JK:
No, no. I’ve never been a very disciplined economist. I taught it and did it because I had to.
But I’ve always been interested in organizational behavior and the ability and inability of
traditional cultures, like foresters in the Forest Service, to adapt to changing realities of an
urban, post-industrial society. That valued non-market goods, which really made my
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�economics less and less potent. And I never was a good economist. So many economists are
so anal and so judgmental, they’re kind of intellectual Jehovah’s, you know. They really talk
and think like they know what the hell they’re talking about, which makes me suspect of
any group like that.
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And I didn’t find them very good company, you know. They were so anal, and so sure of
themselves, and so narrow and so irrelevant that I just moved in another direction. I used to
call myself an economist of sorts, and often introduce myself as a forest economist that’s
been in recovery for 12 years or something! [Laughing] I didn’t want to be an economist,
but I didn’t know that. And I trusted my elders too damn much. But they gave me their best
advice, they were even more ignorant than I was and didn’t realize it. So, no economics just
got me started and allowed me to get in a university and earn my keep for the first five
years.
BM:
So go back to that, you mentioned coming to Utah State. Tell us what that was like. And the
year again --
JK:
Well I came here because this was a multiple-use oriented school. Timber wasn’t king here
– look out the window. I mean Utah State could never justify itself on board feet; maybe red
meat. And as a result, I think the first outdoor recreation course in the world was taught
here; certainly I think the first in the country. They were very multiple-use oriented.
I also came to Utah State because they weren’t under the thumb and the influence of an
agriculture college, which was so conservative and so reactionary, and so inflexible in their
inability to adapt. Plus, they were always the ones out, you know, throwing the stones at the
people protesting the war and other things that I believed in. And so when we came here, the
College of Natural Resources was the most liberal college on campus, including HASS
(Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences) – with such wonderful people like Aldo Leopold’s
last grad student, Stokes, which was really ironic for a northern Utah cow college. Of course
“liberal” is always relative here. But that was a big attraction. And there were a lot of
refugees here from large universities that came to Utah State as professors for the right
reasons: they were tired of the universities of Wisconsin’s or Penn States, regardless of their
supposed qualities and rankings.
You know, this last weekend we graduated one forestry student – we had to limit for every
two people that applied to summer camp, we could accept one. We could only hold 30
students and 60 would want to go to summer camp – this was just Forestry. And we were an
academy for the agencies; we trained range guys, wildlife biologists and foresters for the
federal agencies. And we wouldn’t have thought that, but we behaved very much like a
WestPoint. It was a much more liberal WestPoint than most. And they were good people,
and it was a good community, good departments, a good college.
BM:
What departments were there at that time?
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�JK:
Well, there were three: there was Range, there was Fisheries and Wildlife, and there was
Forestry (that soon became Forestry and Outdoor Recreation).
BM:
And were you responsible for teaching some of those Outdoor Rec courses at that time?
JK:
Ironically, no. They had a huge Recreation contingent here, which really attracted me. I was
an economist and I was a bridge between economics and outdoor recreation for them. I
taught Policy and Economics, primarily, and Principles of Forestry because I always taught
Principles of Forestry as a social science. And nobody wanted to teach that, plus I could get
to the students early in their career, when their minds were open and when they were was
still romantic idealists; and give them confidence and context to stay that way throughout
their rational education.
BM:
And Principles of Forestry is like a freshman level course?
JK:
Freshman or sophomore.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
We had five Principles courses: Principles of Wildlife, Forestry, Range, Outdoor
Recreation, and Watershed.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
And I taught Forestry, which was the biggest. It was a general education course also,
because there was enough social scientists on the general education committee to recognize
what a broad course it was. I used to fill the business auditorium – which was the biggest
auditorium (well maybe there was a bigger one in Old Main). But it was almost 300
students. I’d have a whole flock of TAs.
BM:
And the breakdown was university-wide?
JK:
Yeah, but you know, all the forestry students had to take it and a lot of the other natural
resource majors took it. And about half were natural resource majors, half were across
campus.
BM:
Wow! That is different. You know, when I think of Principles of Forestry from other places
I’ve been at, and in talking with other instructors, it was very much –
JK:
I always taught it as changing relationships between people and forest ecosystems, and how
important culture was in shaping your relationships – as my rural culture in the 1950s was
shaping my relationships with traps and hunting. And I was teaching in the ‘70s and some of
my students said, “Well you don’t look like a hunter! How could you hunt? Blah, blah, blah.
Didn’t it bother you?” “Well yeah, sure!” And also you know, I said, “I was learning life
skills. I didn’t know if I’d ever live through between 18 and 24 – my draftable age. I fully
expected being able to shoot squirrels might save my life and the life of my buddies, plus
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�keeping the world free from evil.” I couldn’t remember years when there wasn’t a war: we
were either finishing one up or talking about the next one. I remember when the Korean
War broke out, I counted on my fingers, you know. I was eleven when it broke out, how
long would it have to last before I could be drafted into that place. And they just didn’t get
that, you know. I mean they thought that they could avoid killing other people in the name
of their country – which has its bright side and its blessings of course. But I thought I was
going to end up shooting people; and do it efficiently, without letting my emotions get in the
way. So if I couldn’t pop a deer, what was I going to do when people were shooting back at
me and my friend was screaming because he had his shoulder blown off? So, you know,
they didn’t get that. They get it less today.
BM:
So this Principles course that you taught – that’s a fascinating approach as far as the
relationship and not just the products –
JK:
Well, I got into forestry because of relationships. Even the very pragmatic, technician types
in forestry – most of them got into forestry out of romantic relationships. And yet they had
that beaten out of us, we couldn’t respect and nourish it, and even elevate it, throughout our
education and our professional development. And I tried to get ahead of that. And every
principles class I’ve taught has always had a strong element of professionalism woven
throughout the whole course; a major tapestry, you know, cross strain and pattern. And I’d
say that professionalism is three components: a trilogy of caring, knowing and doing.
For the first day of all those Principles classes, including the last two I just graded here a
couple of days ago, the first day I’d ask them to define professionalism. I’d ask them, “How
many of you in this class plan to be professionals in four, five or six years?” All the hands
go up. This is the way I seduce them and co-op them. So I’d say, “Well, you want to be a
professional? How many want to be a good professional?” And all the hands go up, you
know. And I say, “Well, what’s a good professional? Most of you have met good ones and
bad ones, so tell me the characteristics of professionalism.” And they’ll throw about 20 of
them at you. 80-85% of them will be characteristics of good people in our culture:
trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly – you know the Boy Scout characteristics of a good
person. But the difference between a good person and a professional is confidence, and
that’s in their mind of things they keep mentioning. And I’ll talk to them about, “Well,
would you rather have a dentist you like or one that can put fillings in your teeth that don’t
hurt and stay there?” Well, alright, you know. “How many of you have had teachers?”
(Because that’s a big role model, positive and negative role models that you’ve experienced
as professionals.) “How many of you have had teachers that were good guys and gals, but
weren’t competent? How many of you have had jerks, but really did teach you something?”
Alright, so we’re back and forth on that. And so I say, “Alright, how do you want me to
treat you people? As post-high school students or as emerging, young professionals? How
many of you want me to treat you as post-high school kids?” [Pause] “How many of you
want me to treat you like emerging, young professionals?” You know, some of the hands go
right up like this. And I say, “Okay. I’ll do that, I want to do that.” Quite honestly I’d do that
even if you told me you didn’t want it. But I said, “You know, this requires more of me and
more of you, if you want me to treat you with that respect and with that kind of information.
And it has higher expectations than you might otherwise get.”
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�So within the first week then, we’re defining professionalism as these three characteristics.
And I said, you know, “Most of you here want to care more. You’re here to really increase
your competency in caring, or knowing, or doing.” You know, and it’s the “knowing” part,
the cognitive part, the rational part. And I said, “The ‘doing’ we don’t actually teach you
much anymore, with field trips and stuff that I had ad nausea as a kid, as a forestry student.
You’re going to get that by summer jobs. And we’re really going to encourage you to do
that; it might be uncomfortable, you might not make as much, blah, blah, blah. But you’ve
got to do that.” And whether it’s teaching summer schools or camp if you want to be a
teacher; if you’re an engineer, getting out and doing various things in engineering or natural
resources. Because again, at least half or more of the students aren’t natural resource
students.
And I said, “Then there’s ‘caring’. We don’t teach you how to care here.” Usually it’s the
opposite. But I said, “That’s important. How many of you know what profession you want
to be, you know? How many of really care?” We talk about caring and I confirm how
important that is. And how, if you’re not careful in all this pursuit for knowing, especially if
they’re taught the traditional male rationale of dominating everything – that you could
squeeze the caring out of you; don’t let that happen, that’s precious. And I’m telling you and
I’m honoring your already moving quite forward. I ask them, “How many of you feel
competent as an emerging, young professional?” Most of the hands go up. I said, “Well
look, here’s the caring part. You told me you were caring and that’s huge! You’re not
recognizing and respecting that. You have to do that, because we will not do that in
academia. So this is your personal responsibility, you cherish that. Not only that, that’s
going to drive what direction you go and more important than that, it’s going to keep you
from burning out, you know. It’s not going to be the ‘knowing’ that’s going to cause you to
burn out and give up; it’s going to be the caring and how you manage your feeling
relationships and your passion, and your forgiveness and your tolerance. And that’s huge for
adaptability as well.”
And I wanted to get to them early on that, because by that time I’d realized how important
that is. And you get into nursing, police work, teaching, engineering usually for caring. And
most of you, if you get into it just for the money – that’s not very romantic in a way – but I
don’t find that the case in most people; even accountants can be romantic about it!
[Laughing] God knows how, but they seem to.
And so I want to recognize that, endorse that and enforce that. And I want them to think
broadly and liberally too. So it was a very conscientious attempt for me to teach the courses
that nobody wanted to teach: the introductory course. I wanted to subvert – I couldn’t
change my college way of thinking, but I could help put students into their class that would
make my colleagues think and teach differently. But it’s a long-term process. But I’ve
always been in long-term processes, certainly as a forester every tree you plant is a huge act
of faith.
BM:
Right.
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�JK:
So it’s kind of, you know, that’s why I took those big, general education courses. You got
no professional rewards or respect from your colleagues, or university rewards; you did that
in spite of the reward system – which romantics tend to do. And I’ve always accepted my
romanticism as cherished, personal property.
[Stop and start recording.]
[Tape 2 of 3: A]
BM:
Okay, we’re continuing on Tape 2, with side 1, with Jim Kennedy. And he’s just finishing
up his discussion on why the general ed courses that he taught at Utah State were so
important and influential in terms of his vision and his idea of where he wanted to go with
education, and with students, and with colleagues.
So go ahead, finish what you were –
JK:
It was subversive, but first impressions last. I hadn’t been to the graduations for the last
couple of years (because I’m usually out of here, down at the ranch by the time graduation).
BM:
And the ranch is in?
JK:
Tropic, Utah.
BM:
Alright.
JK:
And the dean, you know, put out a memo, “Please come.” Plus this might be the last time
I’m on campus in May, so I went. And the valedictorian said that she graduated from high
school in California (this is our college valedictorian), and she was so sick and so
disillusioned with academia/school was going; she went to Mexico and was going to just be
a bartender in Margaritaville for a couple of years. She ran into a friend of hers that was
coming up to Utah State, and talked to her into coming up. And she took my introductory
course and she said her life changed. And I turned her on to thinking, and feeling, and
excitement. And seeing that finding a profession that feeds your soul, as well as your wallet,
can be – in our society, the way it’s constructed for better or worse – is an opportunity for
joy, and fulfillment and growth; or an opportunity for despair, or in between: just boredom.
You’ve got to choose, what do you want to do with your life? And that’s a big decision.
She’s gone on to graduate school, so that was kind of cool.
BM:
And what area of CNR did she graduate in?
JK:
Shupe escorted her down the isle, so I think it was – you know, I don’t remember. But I
mean she was one of just the general ed students that came in and then switched to our
college.
BM:
That’s amazing.
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�JK:
And that happens, and that’s as close to miracles as you can get. There are lots of theories of
education, but that result that I experienced on Saturday, supports my inoculation theory,
you know. Where you sneeze on them, like with Swine Flu, or with Jesus of Nazareth
breathing on them, “Who’s sins you shall be forgiven,” and they don’t think they’re getting
a cold. I remember one time a student walked into my office – this was in the ‘70s – and
said, “You son of a bitch. I came out here to ski and I ski every Tuesday and Thursday, and
I’ve taken your class on Tuesday and Thursday and I thought I’d cut it.” He said, “You’ve
turned me onto school! The damn snow is melting and I haven’t been skiing!”
BM:
[Laughing] That’s hilarious!
JK:
He said, “You have really screwed up my life!” He said, “Damn! I am really turned onto
this stuff and I’m becoming responsible. And my parents and I don’t know really what
happened!
[Laughing]
JK:
That was the plot. I’ve developed a very humble image as myself as an educator. I used to
see myself as a lightning rod, but you’re really a seed crystal. You know, the solution has to
be charged for you to make major changes in people’s lives. Now, for better or worse, they
usually give you too much damn credit because they feel their lives – the valedictorian put it
(Sivvy was her last name – I forget), but she said, “Her world pivoted” on that course. So
pivotal points is a nice image, you know. For physics or for a ballerina, a pivot point and
angles over pose – that’s nice imagery to me. And you know, part of what you teach you are
a role model and a life force and all the intellectual crap, especially is so important in
economics. You become a positive or negative role model. I used the verb “educate” and
“role model” almost like in one breath. Because you ask people – I’ve interviewed a lot of
people – five, ten, 15 years out of the contact with teacher. And they never remember the
theory, they always remember the person. And as a role model: positive and/or negative, or
both. So you know I figured that out pretty early.
I’m much more humble. And usually when students write me about what an influence I’ve
had in their life – I’ll always say, because I think it’s the truth, not just cause -- I can accept
compliments in my old age now (I couldn’t when I was younger). But I said, you know,
“You came into my life with all of that and more. And I just happened to enforce it, nurture
it, confirm it. And you’re giving me more credit than I deserve, which I’ll take, but I know
and I want you to know that I think you’re giving me more credit. And I’d like you to take
more credit for yourself.” And I was glad there to be the catalyst. A catalyst I think is
accurate and good image. I was glad I was there and I was glad I was the catalyst. But you
had to be ready for a catalyst. And when you look at it, a catalyst is usually not much of the
weight in a solution; it’s a small amount. But the other mass there ready to receive it.
So you know being an educator really requires receptive people. And it might be asking too
much of 19 year olds that have so little life experience. They just don’t have anything to
make it relevant, the things I’m talking about. But many of them do, and they’ll never be
able to come back to me and say I didn’t tell them so.
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�BM:
There is a tremendous passion when you talk about what you do. And it’s not just because
you like the woods, you know, like you hear a lot of foresters talk. You obviously have
talked about liking to be outside and how that, you know, with your ADHD and all of that,
those kinds of behaviors. But I think that’s something else that is just like a thread through
all of what you talked about. There’s that passion for what you do in caring about people
and how that comes out in your teaching – over and over again I hear from students how
stimulating that is. And that is something that not a lot of us have been exposed to. You
know, some of us have had that lucky series of teachers –
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
But that’s, I think a very important quality that you put into all the teaching that you’ve
done.
JK:
Well, if you teach natural resources not as sacred stuff, but as human-ecosystem
relationships, based on what you know – knowing and caring about parts of ecosystems. If
you study natural resources you’ve got to learn about yourself, because it’s relationships.
And you’re pivotal in that relationship and so are the people. And you’ve got to be
empathetic with other people, because without relationship there are no natural resources,
you know. And occasionally when I really want to berate my colleagues here, I tell them
you know, “It’s like you’re saying, ‘We’re the college of traditional marriages.’ And for
95% of the course we teach the husband side of marriages. But in the end we give them a
course in the wife side of natural resources – the wife side of marriage.’” That’s like saying
you teach natural resources here and you give them a human dimension course at the end?
And in wildlife, often that human dimension course is law enforcement? Better give them
zero, than to give them the relationship of the enforcer, you know.
The Conan the Barbarian for right and truth. I said, “No wonder you turn out such
dysfunctional, damaged professionals.” You’ve got to focus on relationship and you’ve got
to learn about yourself if you see yourself in a relationship. And you’ve got to take
ownership for that. If you fear rattlesnakes, you’ve got to take ownership for that, it’s not
the rattlesnake’s fault, you know. If you want change, you better change because the
rattlesnake isn’t. It’s your perception and response and behavior around them – and that’s
true with just about everything. Living in a bureaucracy, living with a crappy provost or
whatever, you know. You’ve got to take responsibility for your feelings about that, and
manage that. You probably can’t change him or the war, you know. That’s not to say you
don’t do something about it; stoicism is only one response, or denial is another that is even
less justifiable than stoicism.
So I really focus on the relationship part and that you’ve got to take responsibility for that.
And I do that in class too. I said, “I expect you to come prepared. You expect me to come
prepared, and damn it, you should. I’m a professional, I’m proud of it and I’m going to
prove to you I’m a good one. But I expect you to come doing the reading. If you don’t come
having done the reading, I’m not going to sound that organized; I’m not going to sound that
profound. And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that; I’m not! I’ve given you
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�the readings, spoon fed them to you. It takes a half hour – most of you spend that much time
getting your hair ready to go out in the world. If you can’t do that, you’re really not an
emerging, young professional that has much of a future ahead of him.” So I beg them, I kid
them, and I’ll confront them. But I can do that fully justifiably and I get away with that.
I grade every one of their exams. They come to see me, not a TA; there is never a true/false
or multiple choice questions in it. That really gets their attention because they know that
weekend before I give them back their exams, I’ve spent 20-30 hours doing their exams;
comments in the margins. That gives credibility normally you don’t get when you don’t
deserve it. You really invest yourself and that counts. They hear so much talk: “I love you; I
respect you, blah, blah, blah.” Show me the beef, you know. Your involvement with them
and your willingness to read – some of them wish you wouldn’t read their questions and
make as many comments as you would and just give them an ‘A’. It doesn’t work that way.
BM:
Well, and you have a vested interest in them. They’re not just [inaudible] sitting in your
classroom: they are living, breathing organisms that are going to go out and change the
world.
JK:
Yeah. And it goes back to the non-intellectuals, the farm guys I knew that taught me that, in
terms of I want to see it raw. I want to see it and wanting to spend time with me or work me,
or do something with me, you know. And get up early in the morning and do it and not
whine about the weather or whatever other things you’re using to limit yourself or protect
yourself. So that’s a form of vulnerability in a way.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
But it’s also a form of accountability that seems to be diminishing, especially in the way we
grade them too.
BM:
What do you mean?
JK:
The greening of the grading system: everybody gets a three-point anymore.
BM:
Hmm. So influence wise – you’ve mentioned a few names along the way – who would you
recognize as your mentors?
JK:
Well, Bob McDermott who saved me as an undergraduate student really did. And he loved
questioning, he loved debate; he had a sense of humor, he was open-minded, he laughed. He
was involved with life in the classroom and in his mind as well as when (I suspect) being
out with friends – which maybe some of my other stick-in-the-mud professors were, but I
never could sense it.
A lot of people that I’ve read, you know. And you know, sometimes it’s a personality defect
for a person that’s talked as much about mentoring and being a mentor, and studied
mentoring as I have – there have been no real saviors other than Bob McDermott in my
undergraduate. And I only had two classes from him: Outdoor Recreation and Range; really
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�the only multiple-use classes I had at Penn State. I was fortunate to be his TA when I back
for my Master’s degree too.
Larry Davis, my major professor and department head here was a wonderful guy; really
bright, intellectual guy. And I think he also saw me as a different personality and thinking
type, and he embraced me for that. Because I think I made him better, and he made me
better. I think we taught each other values and relationships and all the “knowing” part of
the three parts of a professional.
BM:
Um-hmm. Which two are the essence of a mentorship and relationship.
JK:
Yeah, sure it is.
BM:
You’re both giving and sacrificing and pushing each other.
JK:
Yeah, yup. Yeah, and I had some people in some individual classes like Speech class I
stumbled into at Penn State, where the person really forced me to confront my insecurities
and help me – I used to have bladder control problems standing up in front of a group. I
came across some good, positive role models as an educator, but for every positive role
model as an educator I had ten negative ones; but they taught me something. I mean, that
didn’t teach me what to be, but it taught me what I didn’t want to be. And they taught it to
me solidly; and I was sure I didn’t want to be like that. So that really helps you decide what
you want to be.
And there was just a whole bunch of people. I’ve been exposed to a lot of people. My father,
in some ways, was a negative role model; but he taught me stuff even by that – in terms of
relationships with spouses and children – as well as the positive ones. So I’ve always been
blessed by the negative ones. Some of the greatest shocks in my life and disappointments in
my life. Well Thad Box, when he was dean, turned me down for a full professor the first
time I went up. I mean my full support of my committee and my department head.
As a result of that, I turned to the agencies that really needed me in the mid-1980s to put
their diverse, professional and gender recruits, in their post-NEPA [National Environmental
Policy Act]
culture. And we developed short courses where I was – with all the teaching I
did on campus, even when I was teach large classes, I often had more contact hours with 30
and 40 year olds in the Forest Service and BLM, in these one week short courses with
people like Jack Thomas. And these people are ready to learn. Whoa! You talk about a
charge – and that really made firm in my concept and confidence in this catalyst model of
being an educator really was convincing there. Plus, going out on a limb and taking the risks
to deal with feelings that were involved and the emotional, spiritual elements of their
frustrations and successes allowed me to come back and risk doing that with more
confidence back on the class here, when students would laugh or say, “Oh crap, what’s that
all about?” Because these 19 year olds don’t have that much context. Sometimes it’s like me
giving a terrific lecture on retirement planning to 3rd graders over at Edith Bowen
[elementary school on USU campus], you know. No matter how good you do it, I mean they
just don’t care! They’re not ready for that.
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�But these 25, 32, 40 year old combat biologists who weren’t being very successful, and
getting beat up in the agency and often weren’t taking responsibility – talk about a miracle
worker in a week. I mean, we had people come unglued, I mean that just had to really reevaluate their whole context of who they were and what they were doing. Because they were
behaving as these kind of Robin Hoods out there, and they weren’t very affective; and they
were alienating the community and the resources that they gave a damn about weren’t being
adequately protected (as they could and should be). Plus, they were working themselves out
of stomach linings, and marriages, and everything. I mean they really needed to reconsider
their life as a person and a professional, and as a change agent within the Forest Service.
Most of them, of course, didn’t see themselves as change agents, didn’t want to be change
agents, didn’t study to be change agents; they wanted to do it, didn’t know how to do it.
But you know, NEPA put them there to be change agents, I mean geez! And NEPA put
them in there to change the power relationship within the Forest Service. And most of them
didn’t think they were into power – which they all were, they were just in the closet, even to
themselves. Of course power is your ability to change the world, change things; that’s what
power is. And most biologists and these specialists think that power is something that
capitalists and generals and people that they don’t admire and care about are in to, like the
Forest Supervisor.
But just intellectually, and emotionally, and relationship wise to confront them, that was
hugely important to me because it made me work hard. And these 30 and 45 year old,
frustrated, very powerful, intellectual, caring, romantic, idealistic, hard-working people –
they did not tolerate bullshit for long, you know. They would come right at you. And so you
had to be relevant and you had to be true. I mean you had to be true and honest with them,
even though initially they would rebel against it and didn’t like it. And I was; and the team I
put together was.
You know I just threw away the plaque that the Forest Service gave me for doing that – put
it in the trash can. You know, it’s just a piece of wood and brass. But you know [inaudible],
I’ve got the memories.
BM:
Right.
JK:
But kids aren’t going to experience it. It was signed by – Max Peterson signed it. Anyhow,
I’ve always seen myself as a change agent and a revolutionary, but I’ve done it indirectly,
like planting trees and things. I plant seeds and stand back and watch them grow. But that
was really powerful. You could see impact and people would, you know, tell you how you
changed their life. But the only requirement was we wouldn’t take anybody into that short
course unless they had worked for a year (or preferably three). We wanted them to really be
frustrated and be experienced and have context, and be ready to take ownership for their
successes and their failure and frustrations. And it did. It worked, it worked and it was great.
And it allowed me to come back and teach in a different way on campus. And even 19 year
olds, that I wouldn’t have had the courage to do, given the criticism and lack of respect for
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�that from my colleagues. And it annoyed a lot of the undergraduates. If I show you my bio,
you know, my true bio – I describe myself as “Coyote the Trickster.” And my students
know that. Three or four times in a lecture I’ll say, “Okay, I’m going to be playing Coyote
with you.” Which means it’s not on the exam and I’m going to be confrontive and I’m going
to be playful, and I’m going to be flipping things on them. I’m going to flip them; I’ll lead
them down a path and wham! I’ll t-bone them with this idea, without airbags and they know
it. So I often tell them, “Hold on to your seat now, I’m going to play Coyote with you.”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
And so I think that’s really important. I think one of the most important things you can give
people in an era of complexity and change (like our world is), is haunting metaphors. Never
let them be comfortable with what they know – which was the absolute opposite the way I
was educated, you know. This is it, this is truth, and it’s going to stay that way forever, and
it’s on the exam. But to give them haunting, relevant metaphors I think is great. And one of
the reasons when I think back I don’t see any critical mentors, most of the things that broke
me free to think were often novels and experiences in my past that haunted me.
BM:
Name some novels.
JK:
Oh, god! Everything from The Heart of Darkness to plays like Ibsen’s play An Enemy of
the People. I mean things that were really haunting. Well actually, Miller’s re-writing (or
getting ready for the stage) of Ibsen’s Enemy of the People is a lot easier: it’s like
Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov without the second coming part; or Bernard Shaw’s
Superman without when they go to Hades. All of those things haunted me and I think about
them over and over again. And all of a sudden the relevance to me and my profession just
leap out at me. So I’ve got a lot of kindred spirits that are dead and some that are alive as
well. And I think that’s critical for a professional. And to feel that you can speak to the dead
and the dead can speak to you, I think is a powerful, spiritual connection; and humbling.
So I always was a reader and still am. But good novels – I’m looking forward to reading
everything Joseph Conrad wrote. Lord Jim is a perfect example of a romantic, written
beautifully by a person who English wasn’t his first language: he was Polish. And he did
Heart of Darkness, which is – ah! You never recover from reading that little book. Have
you ever read The Heart of Darkness?
BM:
I haven’t.
JK:
Joseph Conrad.
BM:
Hm-mm.
JK:
You’ll never get over it. Apocalypse Now [film] was based on that and actually the making
of Apocalypse Now,
if you’re a movie person, rent it. It’s called “The Heart of Darkness”
[Hearts of Darkness: a Filmmaker's Apocalypse].
Coppola’s wife put it together while they
were making it. The making of the film – they were all drugged and in that tropical
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�rainforest. It’s no wonder that creepy, haunting, operatic movie came out. And it is operatic:
full of tragedy, and ambiguity, and uncertainty, and blurry edges. It’s an impressionist piece
rather than, you know, an etching. So those things really affected the way I think and feel.
BM:
How are you thinking on the eve of your retirement?
JK:
Well, you know, it’s just something that’s always been in my job description. I knew it was
coming, I’m glad I lived long enough to do it and I still have some health and opportunity
ahead of me. And I’m focusing mostly on being. When we go down to the ranch, we just get
absorbed by that place. It owns us as much as we own it. And Kathy and I like each other’s
company and we’ve been nomads with all of our sabbaticals. And so we trust our ability to
get along together and manage and live in a place and live well. We’ve always done that. So
we’re much less uncertain than some of our colleagues are. And people keep asking us what
I’m going to do. And that’s just the wrong question, you know. I’m focusing on being. I’ve
been doing a lot, and I’ve accomplished a lot. But just being is different than that. And so
often the tragedy of retirement is so many people have their whole self-identity and life built
around “doing” that they don’t know how to “be.” And once you do that, take away the
doing that they’re comfortable with, their lives fall apart. So we’ve got a beautiful place to
go be. And after almost 50 years of marriage we still like waking up together, so that’s
important too.
BM:
Um-hmm, it is.
JK:
And that’s the most annoying question I get asked in my life is, “What do you do down
there?” Well, they’re already off on the wrong footstep if that’s the way they frame the verb,
frame the question!
BM:
[Laughing] Right, right.
JK:
A lot of times I’ll make up stuff just to give them an answer they’re comfortable with.
Because when you start talking about being together, after three minutes their eyes glass
over; they just don’t get it or they’re not interested. “What? You sit in bed for two hours and
drink coffee and tea and talk?” “Yeah.”
BM:
Well having lost the art of relaxation and just that chance to just –
JK:
Yeah. Well the land will absorb you, that’s part of the relationship: you’ve got to let the land
talk to you as much as you talk to it. And I don’t carry a weapon around anymore when I go
out in the woods. And when I see deer – I remember the first time I saw a big buck when I
watched it. And after watching it disappear, realize for the first time ever I didn’t have a
cross-hair on my pupil. You know, I was always watching the deer where I would shoot it.
BM:
Sure.
JK:
I was focusing exactly on that spot. Even when I had no intention of shooting it and had no
means to, or never mind the desire. So that was kind of liberating.
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�BM:
So one of the questions on this long list of questions that is here –
JK:
We can’t go too much longer.
BM:
Oh my goodness! Yeah.
JK:
Because it’s 3:20 already.
BM:
Yeah, okay. Let’s finish this side of the tape and then we’ll stop for now, or stop for this
afternoon.
You know, in looking at – this is just so rich with relationships with people, with students,
with colleagues, with mentors or people who you admire that aren’t even alive or maybe
you’ve never met. You know, part of this project is looking at that relationship with the
place called Logan Canyon (right out here).
JK:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And I wonder if you would just share a few of those memories before we sign off for today.
JK:
With Logan Canyon?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
The first relationship I have with Logan Canyon was that surprising afternoon I drove
through here. Tired and boy, it just woke me right up. I never forgot it, and I was just
astounded. Again, any kind of satisfaction or response to any kind of event is heavily
influenced by our expectations. And as I qualify that, my expectations were so low, the
shock was magnified.
BM:
You mentioned sage brush, and –
JK:
Yeah. I mean I was really impressed with Crater Lake, but I kind of knew it was going to be
spectacular.
BM:
Right.
JK:
Still took my breath away when I first looked at it. But reading the diary of Pinchot’s front
man who went up here in 1895 – what was his name? Copies of his diaries are in the Special
Collections. Have you read them?
BM:
Uh, no.
JK:
Shame on you! You have got to read that! In fact, there’s one great section he says, he’s up
there and he says, “There’s no trees of value up on the mountain, it’s just all aspen.”
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�BM:
Oh!
JK:
Now we’re trying to get it back and worried about aspen coming back. Oh man! I used to
have that as part of my Principles of Forestry course. And he’s got articles written about it,
and people have written – and the Special Collections librarian is a really neat guy.
BM:
Is that Brad?
JK:
Brad, yeah.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
He’ll know who I’m talking about.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
He was working for the Forest Service, he was looking at this public land before it became
National Forest; you read his description of Logan too on a weekend, it’s kind of cool. He
wasn’t from the local culture. But people like that – I never liked history in high school, but
it was never about people and relationships: it was about dates, and deaths, and wars and
stuff like that. So you know, that’s a wonderful opportunity to walk in his footprints up
through this canyon that looked a bit like “All Quiet on the Western Front.” It had all been
lawned off and grazed. It literally looked more beat up than it does now. And I bet you Thad
Box said that when he first saw Logan Canyon about 20 years before I did. You said you
were interviewing Thad. You know, you look up there now and it’s probably in better much
ecological condition than it was 100 years ago.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
I first started just fishing it. But we’d take the kids up there; we’d go cross-country skiing.
We’d use Green Canyon and we’d go up here and ski after school, on real quick day trips
after work was done. We’d tube down it – the canal comes right out at the back of our
property. We’d tube down it in the summer 50 times – day and night. Sometimes 11 o’clock
at night you’d come back, or 10 o’clock at night you’d come back from a party and the kids
would be watching television; it would be a full moon and it would be July and they’d say,
“Let’s go tubing!” “Oh man! Just came back from a party, it’s been a tough. . .” “Come on
Dad!” “Oh, what the hell!” And up we’d go. Kathy would drop us off.
BM:
[Laughing] And you’d come down in the dark?
JK:
Oh yeah. But you know the dark here is so light. From back east, I never could understand
how nocturnal animals made it. Out west, you could see – I could be a nocturnal predator,
damn near, most of the days of the month! But mostly it was fishing, and cross-country
skiing it. We would go up to Bear Lake and come over and we’d come back down Mink
Creek, come back down, you know, down through the next –
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�BM:
Emigration Canyon?
JK:
Emigration Canyon, yup.
BM:
Yup.
JK:
That’s a wonderful loop. We’d do that every season. And my most intimate relationship
with the canyon in a way, was when I was the first person to run summer camp after the
originals: Ted Daniels and Ray Moore ran it all through World War, you know, through the
‘30s and World War II. And I took it over from them in, probably about 1970 maybe,
something like that. And I was the first, you know, guy to do that. I mean the first person to
do that; just when women were starting to come in up there. And I’d ride my motorcycle –
[Stop and start recording.]
[Tape 2 of 3: B]
BM:
Tape 2, side 2 and we’re continuing with Logan Canyon.
You’re on your motorcycle.
JK:
Well, you know, just driving up through there on a motorcycle at 6 o’clock in the morning.
So you’d get up, you’d eat and finish eating breakfast by 7:30 so I could get some leftover
eggs and a cup of coffee by the time I got up there. Early in the morning, quiet, nothing
there – ah! It was gorgeous with a motorcycle.
But you know, most of my memories of course with summer camp are running that old
facility and dealing with young people and all the things that went with it.
BM:
Like what?
JK:
Oh, you know, just feeding them and manage them, and dealing with the issues. You know
the first year I was in charge of it – they always allowed dogs up there. We stopped that
about the second year I was in charge of that because the kids were less responsible with
everything, including their pets. And one of the first Forestry students had became pregnant
and had a baby without a husband here, and she came to me and said, “I’d like to come to
summer camp.” And I said, “Well sure, you have to.” And she said, “But I don’t have a
babysitter and I’m breastfeeding my child. Could I bring my baby to camp?” And in those
things you should go check with the department head and go check with the dean I guess.
But it was just a sense of justice that just hit me, from mostly reading and other things. And
of course being raised as a shanny Irishman too, we always focused on justice and we were
treated unfairly, you know. But anyhow, it occurred to me – I was going to go check with
the leadership – and I thought, “Wait a minute. If we allow people to bring dogs there, how
could we ever say ‘No?’ I mean I don’t have to go listen to these people. And the fact that
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�they told me to qualify it or say ‘No.’ I resented and resisted. And they might tell me that
and I’d have to enforce that stupid decision.” So I said, “Certainly you can do that.”
Well, when the word got out, everyone was you know, upset. And even some of the
students, well. That baby was passed around and in the first week it didn’t know who it’s
parent was, you know. It was part of the group. When she had to do stuff there was always a
willing hand to put that little baby in their backpack or underneath their jacket. We’d take it
out in the snow and everything. And it really had an influence on the culture, as did women.
BM:
How so?
JK:
Well, I mean it made us more human. When male cultures dominated, there was always a
goat. I mean males I think were so insecure they had to put a benchmark, like a brass bench
marker to know what the elevation was, so they could feel taller. And with the women up
there – I remember, this was the first year – I could see the goat that they picked out within
a day or two. And I mentioned it – there were three very powerful women there – and I
mentioned it and I was going to have to intervene. And one of them, God bless her (and I
can’t remember her name) – when one of the alpha males was putting this kid down, she
said, “What needs are being fulfilled when you put another human being down like that?
When you hurt another person, how does that make you feel good?” “Well, I’m not hurting
him” [Inaudible] You little punk, you know, you little shit. “Yeah, yeah I am.” “Ah, I’m not
really. Well I don’t really mean to hurt him.” She just – and then he got red and flustered.
And he made such a fool of himself that [snap], the sport was off!
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
I mean that really, that really hit me. And I just looked at her and she looked at me, and I
had such respect for that woman. And by having a baby there and I remember all the
concern when we were going to bring women up to camp. You know, there was, “Oh! How
are we going to pee in the woods together?” Crap, you know that stuff!
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
You know it was so absurd to have a bunch of PhDs sitting around the damn table, talking
about such irrelevant, peripheral rubbish! “Well we won’t get to tell jokes together. What if
we’ve got to fart around girls?” You know that kind of a thing. [Laughing]
This was really cute, you’ll appreciate this. And I don’t even mind if it’s on tape. We got
there and we had a huge snow storm. In fact, you can still see mature aspen trees that bent
over from getting about 16 inches of wet snow. And this was in the quarter system, so this
would have been about the 10th of June. It was huge! And most of the young people didn’t
bring adequate footwear. So it was a serious storm and all the trees were bent over. And we
couldn’t even drive out – you know we’re not that far off the highway. The highway crews
weren’t ready for it, everything was shut down. We’re eating breakfast and they’re wading
through snow (this is the first week of class), “Well, we’re not going to go out are we Prof?”
“Certainly we are! We’ve got everyday scheduled, you’re going out. What do you think is
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�going to happen when you’re working in the field? Certainly you’re going to do that.”
“Well, we don’t have shoes.” You know, I had more wool socks, I think, then anybody. So
we started sharing socks. We took all the bread out and used bread bags. I said, “You put
that underneath your sneakers. You mean you came up here without boots? You know, I’m
sorry. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for you. We’re not going to put you where your life’s
at risk, and we’re not going to let your feet freeze off, but they’re going to be bloody cold.
And you’re going to have to take responsibility for that.” “Well, you were such a nice guy in
Principles class.” “Well, this is a different learning experience.”
So all of that. And about two or three days later when we had a chance to go down and get
boots, there was still snow as we’re going up to do our first day of cruising. And the guys
were trying to tell jokes and were on the edge and with caution. And it was awkward, it was
kind of cute. And walking up through the snow – we drove in open trucks then. So we drive
up and someone was telling jokes (I don’t remember that part). But I remember it was
within the first week or ten days and they were trying to learn how to deal with women
colleagues (as we were) with women students. And we’re walking up deep in snow, and one
of the women tripped up in the front and said, “How is getting screwed by a Forester like
spring snow?” And everyone freezes, and then no comment. She said, “Well you can always
count on it being sloppy, but you never know how many inches you get, or how long it’s
going to last!”
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
Well, I went crazy. I just started laughing, my knees buckled. The guys thought they had to
laugh – I mean that really hit them where it hurt. [Laughing] The guys thought they had to
laugh, but it sounded like rusty plumbing. You can hear them all going [imitates forced
laughter]. They weren’t having fun at all. And I just laughed. And then I felt badly because,
you know I was embarrassing the guys too much. But after that – I mean all the ice got
broken, you know. And it just made better people out of everybody. And a lot of the
stereotypical bullshit got knocked, you know, which was a huge learning experience for
everybody.
But it was exactly the learning experience they needed to go work in a post-NEPA culture in
the agencies. And most of all professors weren’t getting that education; they were stuck in
the old, traditional molds. And they didn’t expose themselves to the agencies. By me being
turned down as a full professor, my reference group shifted. Where what the chief of the
Forest Service and a half a dozen Forest Supervisors I respected, or a colleague that I was
teaching short courses with (like Jack Ward Thomas) – what they thought of Jim Kennedy
as a person, professional meant so much more than Thad Box (or even my department head)
thought. And so that really liberated me from this place, where I could do what I wanted to
do for better reasons.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
And it was about that time when I started to recognize the validity and empowerment of the
puppet model, you know. I never liked people calling me “puppets” for reading the Bible, or
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�calling me a “sheep” you know. I was anything but a “sheep,” damn it. And a “puppet?” No,
by god, I was in charge! Nobody was a puppet master to me. But when Thad really messed
up my life for a couple of weeks after he rejected me as a full professor, I was obviously a
puppet and he had strings. And my only way of dealing with that was to let go of the damn
things. You know, the only way a puppet master has any control over you is you hold on to
the other end of the string. You let go of the string, whew! You know, he’s just flipping a
piece of string in space, which isn’t very satisfying to puppet masters.
And so I decided I was a puppet and a lot of strings were up there, and too many of them I
was holding on to and I didn’t have to do that. But I still recognized I needed respect, and I
still recognized I needed self-respect. But I just went other places to gain that, more than I
did in the past. So I became much more annoyingly independent of this group, than I had
my first 20 years here. But it allowed me to go into the agencies and really do some
powerful work and pivotal work. You know, you have an impact on a student you’ve got to
wait a long time. When you have an impact on a frustrated professional, six years in the
Forest Service (and half of them were women), you know you can see an immediate
response.
And a lot of the reasons the women were having trouble was they were blaming too much of
their frustration and their failure on their gender. Which, you know, wasn’t necessarily it at
all. I didn’t fit into the Forest Service as an early professional. And if I was a woman I’d
have used that to blame too. I’m sure I would have. But having them consider that maybe
the reasons they’re not fitting in and not being effective as a role model, and being
perceived as an ugly American in a foreign culture like the Forest Service – as they would
be if they were in Zambia – behaving like a goddess that knew what was good for wildlife
and was going to bulldoze over anyone that she could to do god’s work, and do it right and
get all the credit herself. And that just may be why you’re failing. It’s just the way you’re
trying to execute; and the image you need to make yourself feel comfortable as a rebel, as
someone that confronts people. And when people don’t respond to you, it’s obviously
because they don’t care or know enough to be as good as you, you know. Which is a great
escape clause – then you don’t have to deal with your consequences (which isn’t very
mature and very effective in the long term).
All sorts of issues like that we had to deal with. Which were hard to say, and really hard to
receive. But boy, I’ll tell you, unlike teaching undergraduates – you always got contact. And
I used to fear as a young educator, negative contact with me: anger, rejection, fury. I did not
seek that out, but that’s contact. That’s intimacy. And unlike the students sleeping in class,
or not showing up, or looking up at the ceiling, or not getting it – just taking notes just to get
a grade. And so I no longer felt fear of that. Because in order to do your job in a week with
these frustrated, inter-disciplinary professionals, you had to make contact quickly. And they
were so primed you could hardly avoid it even if you wanted to. And some of the people
that we first brought in tried to avoid it because they didn’t know how they could handle
that, they didn’t want to disturb people. But by Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, even the
tougher ones just often came around to take personal responsibility for what they were
doing; much more so than they were. And to be more forgiving of themselves, as well as the
system, and not be blaming – exploiting blame rather than keeping it where it belongs. And
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�even if it doesn’t belong with you, even if you’re treated shabbily – like you could probably
consider you were with what you’ve put into environmental education with your job. The
only way you can empower yourself is your response to that.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
The decision has been made, regardless of the jerk or the situation. The only way you can
come out of that whole and more whole, is to decide on your best responses to that. To keep
you going and to be the person and professional you want to be.
BM:
Um-hmm. And it makes you reach further. It makes you reach further than what you think
you have. I’m sure the students felt the same way with forestry camp too. That you know,
we’re being embarrassed here but it makes you look inside and say, “What do I have and
how do I respond to this? And how do I be the better person?”
That metaphor of the puppet strings – that’s perfect. We just hang on to those and –
JK:
Yeah, it’s amazing, especially when you look at the data. For example, we were getting – in
those days inflation was 5%. If you did well, everybody got a 2% raise. Then you had 1% to
divide up for performance, which usually came out to maybe another 2-3% more salary a
year. God! Even if you’re in the money, that’s such chicken feed. When I was being a
consultant, I was making three times as much as a raise in a week; which was really helpful
financially because both of our kids didn’t stay in Utah. One was at Whitman College
(which was really expensive) and one was at Georgetown. So it helped us put both kids
through really expensive schools.
And that really was a test for me, as a human being as well as a professional, to deal with
those very human problems and not pander to them; to just be tough love. But they always
knew that we cared about them and we cared about the Forest Service. You know, Jack was
part of the Forest Service and I, in my heart, never left the Forest Service and never left the
National Forest (which I cherish more than the agency that’s the steward in this point in
time).
So that failure was really one of the best blessings I ever had. Now, as it worked out Thad
took a retirement buyout, Joe Chapman became our dean and he was on my committee who
recommended that I be a full professor. So the first months of his reign, he came and said, “I
want you to go up for full professor.” And this was a year after I was turned down.” I said,
“I’m too busy. Besides, you know what Joe? I don’t give a damn about it that much.”
[Laughing] “I don’t care if I ever have a full professor.” You know, in those days you never
got a raise for it. There was no money. And the year that I became a full professor, there
were no raises at the university – so I got zero! In fact, I said, “I’m going to turn it down and
go for it again next year.” “You can’t do that. Once they give it to you that’s it!”
But anyhow, I mean all that stuff was really important at the time, but it’s like being stood
up for the Junior Prom: at the time it’s really a serious issue! [Laughing] But you know,
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�BM:
within a few months or a few years it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. And now it’s just
kind of funny.
Yeah. Well they say, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”
JK:
Yeah, that’s Nietzsche. That can be taken too much.
BM:
Right, right.
JK:
Yeah, and everything that Nietzsche says I take with a grain of – I always take with
qualifications. He was twisted in a way; real bright, brilliant.
Anyhow, that’s some of my summer camp stories and these young professionals. Plus the
other thing (issues) is just dealing with if they were going to be drinking and managing
damage control. You know? “I don’t want anybody driving! I am serious! I’ll be all over
you if I find out a bunch of you went out, you know, got half drunk here and then went up
without a designated driver. I’ll be the damn designated driver, but I do not – do you
understand that? I mean I’m going to be in your face, I’m going to beat you over the head
with a stick when you’re hung over! I am never going to trust you again, do you got that?” I
mean I was just really clear.
[Laughing]
So that the kind of stuff that you just did not want tragedy. And it could easily happen with
that much youth, testosterone and death machines around. But once they got that, and it was
legitimate, they knew that was also an expression of caring.
Okay, I’ll do a little bit more of this some time this week, but my voice is running out on
me.
BM:
We’ll stop for today.
JK:
It’s the allergies too.
BM:
Thank you so much.
JK:
Do you often have to break in these interviews?
BM:
No, not too often.
Okay, so we’re going to finish your interview today with the first part of Jim Kennedy.
We’ll come back later on this week.
Thank you, Jim, for meeting with us.
[End tape 2: B; Begin Tape 3: A]
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�BM:
Okay, we’re here with Jim Kennedy. We’re doing our second day of our interview on Logan
Canyon Land Use Management Project. I’m Barbara Middleton and it is Tuesday, May 5th.
We’re here again on the campus of Utah State University. Continuing onto tape 3, side 1.
Jim.
JK:
Okay. I guess we’re starting with religion and spirituality, although I never separated
religion and spirituality early in life. I was raised in a very, very religious family. And I’m
still God haunted. And probably if I had to classify myself as anything I’m a “Jack
Catholic.” And that’s out of some good experiences I had. I consider all religions human
creations, with people with feet of clay: both those who create it and those who continue it.
And so I never ask for perfection in a religion of anyone I knew – my neighbors or myself.
My grandmother and my mother in my parochial school years had an influence on me. In
terms of my relationship to the land, a lot of the religion training I got in the classroom, and
being required to go to confession once a week when you were seven years old (and you
almost had to make up sins just to have an interesting conversation with the priest). Those
were kind of rituals and a lot of times I couldn’t find spirituality there. Yet, I could come out
of Mass in the spring and hear honeybees up in a fresh, blooming apple tree and just take off
my good clothes and scamper up there and lay in the branches covered with white and pink
and odors and bees and sunlight – and you know you just melt all the barriers on your heart
and in your mind. And you could become part of something much bigger and much more
wonderful than yourself.
So in some ways, searching for spirituality and religion, and often being disappointed
(although not always, but when I was younger, pretty much most of the time), it had me
look elsewhere for spirituality. And I usually almost always found it in nature and solitude
usually – not activity. And out in nature was one of the few places I could slow down and
was captured and interested enough with my ADHD qualities, to find spirituality there. My
first considerations as professions, as a young boy in Philadelphia, were three Ps. They were
to be: a policeman, a politician or priest. And I had good role models in all of them; good,
honest, caring people who had a sense of social service and a sense of self bigger than who
they were, and sense of purpose. So I never had any bad run-ins with any negative role
models in those areas. More with teachers and neighbors and people like that.
And I also stay in my current religion, mainly out of a sense of loyalty. I’m still a Democrat,
I’m still a Catholic, but I’m not a baby boomer. My two brothers and my sisters are baby
boomers; they’ve all become Episcopalians and Republicans and have become embarrassing
wealthy – seriously wealthy. I’m talking tens of millions of dollars. We were all upwardly
mobile I guess, and climbing. I just never wanted the traditional – all the professions I really
(other than my initial kind of pressure to consider being a dentist), I never was attracted to
status or money or fancy cars or fancy clothes or power – in a sense of power in an
organization. I wanted power to change the world when it came to the way we used and
abused the land. And I wanted some power and influence over my own life too. I wanted to
be, what you call today, empowered.
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�But it saddens me that my siblings have betrayed their history. And I don’t know what
they’re going to, but I’m certainly not going to turn my back on a religion that my ancestors
have fought and died for for hundreds of years. To do a makeover on myself, or be more
presentable to my peer group I’m trying to impress. And you know, I wouldn’t change my
political party either. My grandfather had scars all over his body from being beaten with
bicycle chains with fish hooks in them when he was a labor union organizer. And so that
also ties with my orientation with policy.
Although I worked at the policy level, being a special assistant to the director of the BLM,
and being very close friends and respected by a couple of the Forest Service chiefs – I never
was comfortable or impressed or felt in place on top of Mount Olympus in Washington, or
at the regional level in Portland, or down in Ogden with the Forest Service. I always liked
being with the working class, you know. The foresters, the wildlife biologists, the
technicians; they’ve always been my identification group, my peer group. That’s where life
and interest in action occurred. So if anything, I switched from being an economist to
someone interested in organizational dynamics, organizational behavior, organizational
change. Although, you can’t put that on your letter head; no one gets it. You know, if you
say, “administration,” that immediately puts you down with the secretaries. I don’t mind
being there with status, but it’s just plum inaccurate. So I always would put “policy” there
because I didn’t – it would just keep them from asking me embarrassing, annoying
questions. And “policy and economics” – people would salute that and just let you be
yourself.
BM:
So at the time you’re talking about, with the BLM, again – give us the date.
JK:
That was in the first Clinton administration.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
I think it was – I’ll have to check for sure. But I know it was the year before the Republican
takeover of Congress. When that happened, the BLM was so rattled. And ironically, the
Congressman Hansen was the new head of the Natural Resources Committee in the House.
And he and I got along okay; I mean I liked him as a person. I would have even been happy
to have him as a grandfather. As a policy person values – his views on our values, how we
should think about the value and manage of public lands was very much opposed to mine.
But Mike Dombeck, the director of the BLM then, asked me to please stay on a year. So like
a baseball player or something, USU let them buy out my contract and kept me there to
pitch hit for them. Mainly because I was trustworthy and Jack Ward Thomas and Mike
Dombeck liked and respected me, and I could run back and forth between Interior and the
Ag building and we could cut a lot of deals, and they could do it with confidence. They
could come up with an agreement, and they’d just turn to me and whoever was representing
the Forest Service and said, “Well we’ll let Kennedy and Barb, you know, work out the
details.” And you and I, for example, would get together and work out a memo. I never tried
to get a penny for them for research or anything special, and they knew that. So they knew I
wasn’t trying to get into their pocket or exploit the influence and friendship we had together.
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�But even doing that with the BLM, a lot of times I was out in the field doing stuff, if I could
do it. I mean I would look for reasons to get out and work with universities that were
historic, black colleges they were working in partnerships with to try to diversify their
culture, issues.
BM:
In the natural resources area?
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JK:
Well, yeah. But they were geology, but even engineers (any skills the Forest Service could
use) public affairs, for example. It’s much easier to find an African-American interested in
public affairs in eastern shore Maryland, than one of the traditional black colleges there.
Queen Ann: Queen Ann of Maryland or Queen Ann of Virginia? But they were interested in
recruiting people and I was an academic and had respect. And so I would go do a lot of
work for them in that way, just to keep in touch with what was going on out there.
BM:
And did you see that change in the time from then until now?
JK:
Well it was changing then. My immediate supervisor was the assistant director for the BLM
– it was a black, woman, wildlife biologist. Really tough as nails, Brooklyn gal, that I loved
and respected. And she would cringe at using those words. She was a street fighter; although
she had a good heart, but she didn’t like herself very much. She tried to define herself by
what she was doing, and that’s pretty hollow. She loved film and didn’t like going out to
film by herself as much, or going out to eat afterwards alone – and she was a loner. And my
wife was taking care of her father and going up to New Jersey a lot. It was kind of spooky
and some people got the wrong idea, but Denise never came across that we’d be involved!
[Laughing] And anyway, it would insult the promises we made to people that mattered, but
we spent quite a bit of evenings out together having fun and talking about life (as much as
she would do that).
So yeah, I would live a long time at Utah State University before I work for a black wildlife
biologist woman.
BM:
Right. So in looking in your role; I’m trying to understand that a little bit more so that
people that are listening to this get a feel for when you go back to Washington and you are
doing some of these special assignments. That sounds fascinating to me to be able to go out
and look at the kinds of young people that are coming through the program and encourage
people from other diverse cultures, religions, races, whatever; to be able to come to the
field. What do you say to them? How do you attract them to something like natural
resources?
JK:
Well, you try to find out number one, if they have a passion about being a professional, or if
they’re just in the rank and privileged and other things like that – then they want to be a
lawyer, or business person. And usually you can’t capture them because their needs are
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�different and they probably wouldn’t be very good if I did capture them. But people that
want to make a difference, that have some pioneering spirit, that have some attachment to
the land. But an awful lot of African-Americans see the land as the enemy; that kept them in
chains as much as any political, social or cultural stuff. You know, working in the swamps,
logging under miserable, dangerous conditions, working in the mills, working in the mines,
working in the fields.
BM:
Yep.
JK:
I have fond memories about my attachment to the land, but we kind of own some of the
land, or a few people that I knew and cared about did own the land; but it was a big
difference. And it was always a round-trip ticket: if I didn’t like being abused, or come
football season or school, I’d be out of there. And they didn’t have that option. So that was a
hard sell. That was really a hard sell with blacks, especially in the southeast. And some of
them wanted to get out of urban areas, and you could sell them on that. But I looked for a
spark of professionalism and wanting to make a difference. And those who want to entertain
a surprising option that they hadn’t really thought about. And a lot of the people I talked to
were single moms in those traditional, black colleges. And you could talk about the security
that we get and the support that they wouldn’t find in industry. And so I was actively
recruiting them, as well as talking to the people who – when I’d leave would hopefully
continue or increase that activity.
BM:
Were there programs actually growing at that time in D.C. with these agencies?
JK:
Oh yeah. Like Haskell Indian School [Haskell Indian Nations University] in Kansas. And
they had some formal, signed partnerships, and some Hispanic schools in New Mexico –
heavily populated Hispanic schools.
BM:
And you were also seeing then, the nature of the culture in Washington changing with the
personnel that were hired. You mentioned Denise, the black wildlife biologist. What other
kinds of entities within the Forest Service were seeing more diversity?
JK:
Well, I mean initially it was at the entry level and that was part of the problem. The cultural
diversity was gender, ethnic and professional. That’s how I got involved with the wildlife
fisheries biologists in the Forest Service because in the ‘70s when they were starting to hire
women (well NEPA forced them into hiring professional diversity). Presidential
proclamations motivated them to hire gender diversity and ethnic diversity. And often the
only jobs that were available then were not more foresters it was all of a sudden they needed
to hire a lot of wildlife/fisheries biologists. And so without intention and without
recognizing the consequences, they got double whammies: they would hire a black woman
or Hispanic woman biologist, and they’d score triple points, like in Scrabble. However, that
was three often stress points with a person with triple uniqueness trying to fit into the
agency, especially moving the line by being successful on the ground. They were change
agents in three ways; and most had the attitudes and skills, or the expectations of that, and
they were just thrown into the whirlwind and didn’t know it.
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�And many of the line officers and their peers wouldn’t have hired a woman, an ethnic or
professional diversity, if they weren’t forced to. And NEPA and all those legislations were
change agent legislations; they were social experiments. And these poor people didn’t know
that they were being dropped into an organization. They thought they were going to go out
and count beaver or birds or something and wear hip boots for the ten years and shocking
trout. And then when they found threatened and endangered species, their peers would
congratulate them for completely changing their professional lives by making it much more
complex, and slowing down projects.
And they didn’t know how – they didn’t want to do it. They didn’t want to be political; they
didn’t want to be change agents. They didn’t have the right table manners to do it; they had
lousy expectations. So before I went to Washington, mostly as a carry on for my passion as
an educator, I started to look around and the Forest Service (especially line officers at the
Forest Supervisors and Regional Forester level) by the mid-late ‘70s were seeing this dropout rate. And these young people were having such conflict fitting in and being effective in
the Forest Service; they were like very unsuccessful Peace Corps workers.
BM:
Stop for one second. I’m concerned about this tape. [Stop and start recording] We’re fine.
JK:
So I was with a Regional Forester. We used to have a lot of connection. Of course many of
the people down in the Ogden Region 4 office were USU grads. So once a year we would
have a banquet down in Ogden. (Now this is a quick, 15-20 years ago.) I was down there
with a Regional Forester and he was talking about all the new people they were getting:
hiring more people with Master’s degrees, having more science in the Forest Service. And
he also had been talking about the difficulty it was for them to hire and keep good women
and biologists really (many of which came from Utah State University).
And I said, “Well you know, you have science, your science has improved. Let’s take
recreation for example, when I left you guys you were not applying science to recreation;
now you’ve got some of the best recreation researchers on the planet in the Forest Service.
You are doing all sorts of things. But you know much more about the hikers in the high
Uintas than you know about how and why young people come work for the Forest Service
in these new ‘-ologist’, non-traditional positions, how and why they are not effective, how
and why they stay or leave.”
BM:
Um-hmm.
JK:
I said, “You’re not doing any research on that, it’s a folk art. And so you don’t have a
chance until you start finding out how and why that system’s failing. And so don’t tell me
you’re scientific there.” And I said, “And really, does it mean you care more about high
Uinta hikers than you do your own people?”
BM:
So what was their response?
JK:
Well you know, we were having beer and having a lot of fun. And he said, “You know,
you’ve got a point there.” And something else came up and I brought it up again, and he
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�turned – one of those serendipitous things – and he turned to his administrative officer and
said, “Can you give a couple thousand bucks to Kennedy so he can do some research and we
can shut him up?” And he said, “Yeah, I think we could do that.” So I immediately got back
and called Region 6 in Oregon (I had a contact there), and said, “How about if we compare
foresters with your entry-level, one to three years in permanent positions, your entry-level
foresters, range cons, and wildlife biologists, and men and women? Let’s see how and why
they’re fitting into the culture.”
And it really was that often women wildlife biologists had more trouble because they were
biologists than because of their gender; although it’s hard to separate out the two. Wildlife
biologists were seen as obstructionists; they were always telling the foresters and the
engineers and the range cons what they couldn’t do; why they had to spend more money and
more time doing something different, or doing what they normally did a little bit differently,
or make 180 degree turn. A lot of the biologists and a group and individual self-image –
they call themselves “combat biologists.” The Nez Perce said, “Screw negotiations, go for
the throat.” And they had this wolverine with a rabbit by the throat, combat biologist on the
Nez Perce. Well that just set up conflict. And so they were having conflict and they were
taking no ownership for that.
And so I was a forest economist, and not a Forest Service person and not that well known in
the agency, so I recruited Jack Ward Thomas. Because he was a highly respected Forest
Service professional, very good politically and loved and respected throughout. And we hit
it off. And so we developed a one week training session. Well we did the research – I could
give you the reprints – which was the only research done in that area that I know of, in
natural resources; then or since. And of course it just broke my heart to see some of my best
and brightest students come back one, two, or three years after being in the agencies, failing
as a person and a professional, and as an employee. Being miserable, being unsuccessful,
not really helping the land or their people or future generations, and not taking any
ownership for their failure: blaming it all on evil, external forces, men, politics, the damn
foresters and engineers. And that just broke my heart. I mean that was worse than watching
the land erode. And you can’t have healthy land without healthy people managing it.
BM:
Right, right.
JK:
So that’s what really changed my career. And I got involved in studying cultures and the
interaction of culture, cultural change and changing power. And so we developed this
training course that really ran about 80% of the current entry level; within five years the
entry level wildlife/fisheries biologists through that program. And it was known, in some
regions, as Peace Corps training for biologists.
BM:
Did you have a title for that training program?
JK:
Yeah. It was a formal training program; part of the formal wildlife/fisheries biologist
training program, called “Entry Level Training.”
BM:
Okay.
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�JK:
We usually went out and held it on the sites or among the forests, rather than bringing them
to the universities.
BM:
And most of them were in the Pacific Northwest region?
JK:
No, all over – eastern regions –
BM:
Oh, okay.
JK:
And it went to New Mexico; a couple in Region 4 did come up to Utah State; one in
Montana, a couple in Alaska.
BM:
You know, it’s interesting that you make that comment because I remember in Oregon,
when I was there the group that was really being crucified were the archaeologists.
JK:
Them too. And landscape architects and the soft scientists – those “ologists” that didn’t have
any kind of entry level training like that suddenly started showing up at these short courses.
As did an awful lot of mid-career biologists that really hadn’t gotten over the pain from the
way they were treated in their involvement with the Forest Service. And in some cases some
of the people who should have quit and left were those who didn’t. Usually you lose your
best and your brightest in the first three years. Those that stay in often stay in and cope in a
stoic, bitter way. And sadly they become toxic mentors when we send our summer students
out, or young, permanent people or co-op students.
You know, because some of these isolated, ineffectual biologists can be interesting
characters. They’re like Robin Hood stuck up in the Nez Perce – no one likes them but
that’s because no one can handle their vision and truth and devotion to the land. And they’re
all dog loyal to the agency, where I care about the land and the birds and birds and the
cougars. And you can come with that encased, glorious, victimization image of yourself.
And there are always plenty of whining support groups you can get around with alcohol,
especially, to help convince you that you really are the pure of heart and the agency and the
politics and the stupid locals just don’t appreciate you. And that’s how Peace Corps
volunteers become ugly Americans and dysfunctional, and really betray the faith of that
position that they’re in Zambia or Uganda. And we use those examples all the time.
BM:
Hmm. Now was this during a time when the group in the Forest Service (and I don’t know
the exact name), but the environmental –
JK:
Exactly.
BM:
Employee ethics?
JK:
The Forest Service for Employee Ethics. Yeah.
BM:
Yes.
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�JK:
And the current president and CEO of that is one of our PhD students who never finished,
Dave Iverson, from the regional office. Who took all of his coursework at Utah State
University – in Ecology at Utah State University.
Yeah, that was a splinter group that broke off because of the frustration and anger they had,
and sense of betrayal with the Forest Service. A lot of it though was their personal,
professional betrayal. Because we never talked about career development; we talk about
managing all these precious resources out there and the ecosystem – your career is pretty
precious too, and it’s a non-renewable resource if you’re not careful. For example, an awful
lot of these people had this image of promotion of the “Cinderella” model: they were going
to go out and keep their hands pure of politics, they were never going to kiss anyone’s ass or
snuggle up to any line officer; they were just going to work hard, work Sundays, work their
ass off, do good work and their Prince Charming was going to come down in a clean truck
and pluck them up out of the stream and say, “What can I give you? Come to the
mountaintop and pick your career.”
And when you put it that way they’d all just kind of look at you. And some people would
even start crying. And they say, “That’s stupid!” And not only that, it’s arrogant. Because
when you put yourself in that position you set yourself up for a lose/lose position. Because
if you’re not picked up by your Prince Charming, it’s not your fault, you’re being pure –
you’re being a pure Cinderella or Cinderello (if you’re a male). And the whole fault is in the
ignorant, insensitive, bureaucratic, political system. And so not only do you feel betrayed
and unappreciated, but there’s no way you can fix it because you won’t get involved. And
it’s just this death spiral for people and professionals – it’s a tragedy that Shakespeare would
recognize and would make much more poetic than me. But I saw it and it bothered me, and
a few other people did too.
And so ironically when people like Mike Dombeck and Jack Thomas end up in high power
positions, so did a lot of other wildlife biologists. They were so ready (talk about the seed
crystal), they were so ready for us – whether they realized it or not, most of them didn’t
realize it. And initially they thought we were a setup to bring all these wildlife biologists
together for a week at a nice ski resort that wasn’t being used in May; play nice so they
would lay down and let the rock trucks roll over them. And they came in with cohesive and
ready to – “You just try to teach me something, you just try!” You know, you’d see the body
language at the opening night. And normally, when I was younger that would’ve terrified
me, I’d had wet my pants. But I learned that was engagement, and what I always seek in a
group is engagement. And I get less engagement with undergraduates than I do with anyone.
You can’t avoid engagements with serious, involved professionals; they just challenge you.
And if you can rise to that challenge, that’s really cool. And again, it really allowed me to
come back as a much more confident peer among my other peers (who still have Cinderella
models), and often directly and indirectly project that and teach that to their students: don’t
get involved in politics, don’t compromise—all of that stuff that’s just dysfunctional.
BM:
Well and that also follow with then, don’t even come to the table and negotiate; don’t even
bring your ideas and don’t feel like you’re part of a team.
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�JK:
That’s right.
BM:
So how does that eventually affect the perception of yourself, and your whole role within
that agency?
JK:
Yeah. Well, you become disempowered.
BM:
Yeah.
JK:
Bitter. And it’s tragic; it’s a tragedy. We were pretty effective on that, plus we had a lot of
fun. We really did. I am more confident that I changed more lives per capita that way than
with undergraduates.
BM:
Um-hmm. Can you recall one of the good arguments that somebody brought to that
workshop? I mean it sounds like an incredibly engaging week – like an energy drain too.
Whew!
JK:
Yeah. You could think it through and when you represent it in the Cinderella model and you
have Jack Thomas and I doing that, you know, and you get them laughing; and sometimes
we’d act it out. You’d get them; you’d play “gotcha” the whole time. But they knew Jack
and I really, really cared about them and the future of National Forests, and wanted them to
be an effective part of it. We wanted to empower them. And they all considered themselves
scientists – and you would show them the numbers – there were a lot of numbers on this to
look at the failures. And we’d look at the interviews and the survey research results that I
got my studies with the Forest Service. And many of them were part of those studies, and I
made sure the results got back to the participants.
We were playing coyote, you know. That’s when I first started developing this image of
myself in a bio as “Coyote the Trickster,” who I love. That is such a wonderful image and a
god. Christianity is so bereft of the power of having an image like that. I mean, actually
Peter was always one of my favorite apostles because he was so ADHD and wacko! He
wanted to walk on water . . . and what Jesus of Nazareth was just smoking when he saw
that guy as a rock!
[Looking for files] I’m looking for – I had to change all my files around because they’re
kicking me out of this space. And I don’t know where my bios are. Hmm. You keep me
going; I want to find those even if I didn’t want to immediately give them to you because I
know where in the heck they were. That’s normally where I kept them. Huh.
BM:
I’m going to stop the tape.
[Stop and start recording.]
BM:
We’re back on.
JK:
He’s always being caught for his hubris (as the ancient Greeks would call it).
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�BM:
This is the Trickster you’re talking about?
JK:
Yeah, Coyote the Trickster. And we would say to them, “We’re Coyote the Trickster. We’re
here to cause you to wonder, to question things. We’re here to annoy you. We’re not here to
play nice. We’re going to be confrontative; we’re going to be honest. We get away with this
in the short courses because “it will be abundantly clear to you that we really care about you
and we want you to succeed and we want you to figure out ways to finesse and to use Judo.
To know how the organization works, and rather than Sumo wrestling.”
I mean most of these people were the Sumo wrestler model: they were going to squat down
and run up against the bureaucracy. All the engineers and foresters; all the damn men were
reactionaries and they became road kill. And they’d get up valiantly and wham!
[End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B]
BM:
We are on tape 3 and we are on side 2, continuing with Jim Kennedy. Just talking about
Judo versus Sumo wrestlers in how we approach things.
JK:
Well, you know, all things are a relationship. And your relationship with an organization is
huge. And I know this from experience. I don’t know this from self-help books; I mean I’ve
been road kill. I’ve acted out against authority. Back in my bedroom bureau I probably have
40 Purple Hearts from serious injuries in combat with bureaucracies. And they always win,
you know, especially if you confront them with impatience and arrogance. But that’s how
heroes were trained: from the comic books, with our professors, with movies. You know,
this is my alternate – I have my bio here – but on the back I said:
I have an alternate, more honest and descriptive Jim Kennedy bio sketch. I
am Coyote the Trickster. I’m here to annoy and stimulate you to doubt,
wonder, search, so you and I might be more aware and wondering learners
together. I’m not here to teach you to know more or better. I’m here to
annoy and stimulate you to be a learner and not a knower, and as such I
honor your inherent wisdom. As an insecure grad student I didn’t want to
be Coyote at this stage in my career. I dreamed of being White Eagle:
mature, wise, proud, mighty and unassailable, sailing safely above you and
the messiness, complexity and wonder of life, raining truths down to teach
you, with neither of us being learners, not much. Happily I failed at that, it
never worked for the things I considered worth learning, including myself.
I am Coyote the Trickster down here with you and immersed in our own
messy, complex, and mysterious world. And as such I honor you, myself
and together what we search to learn more about.
And you know, I’d give it to them and I’d tell them, like I do my students (I give this to my
undergraduate students) and I say, “I’m going to play Coyote with you now.” And they’d
relax, they wouldn’t feel the confrontation. And I’d use myself and Jack Thomas, we’d use
ourselves [as] examples. We would laugh about it; they’d laugh at me and with me. And all
of the sudden you’d feel them, they’d get had. They’d go, “Oh my god! That’s what I’m
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�doing! Oh, that is really dumb; I have to consider changing!” And that’s huge, to get people
to do that five or six times in a week. But it was going on with people all around them. I
mean people really had “falling off the horse” experiences on the way to Damascus. But
they couldn’t do that unless they had gone through the pain and frustration and be ready to
change. And they weren’t ready to change fresh out of college. They just didn’t have the life
experiences.
BM:
Right.
JK:
And so that was the most powerful educator experience I ever had.
BM:
But you know that comes when you talk about being at the right time to change and having
that experience, but also of being of the mentality to be open to change. Like being open to
learning and realizing that each one of those is a learning experience, and you know, “What
did I learn? Or I’m going to go and repeat this again and again until I finally learn.”
JK:
Yeah.
BM:
You know, so it’s recognizing it and also having found that those years on your feet that you
recognize the experience contributing.
JK:
Yeah and we’d use all sorts of metaphors and examples. For example, we said, “Look, in
America today you all expected to learn about being an effective bureaucrat with soul and
spirit, and a long term resilience on the job. You’re as poorly trained in that as you were in
sex. We don’t formally train you in sex in our country it’s on the job experience. And often
it’s pretty tragic and high risk, but especially if you don’t have the right attitudes to be an
effective on-the-job learner; whether it’s sex or in the bureaucracy.” Most of them don’t
realize that that’s their job. When you go to a foreign country – Kathy and I have spent a lot
of time in foreign countries or as a Peace Corps worker – you’re going to have to do most of
your learning there. But it’s absolutely essential that when you go there that you have
functional attitudes and strategies to be an effective on-the-job trainer. We give them neither
of that here, other than the ENBS programs, some of them. We just give them science and
throw them out in the bureaucracy, usually with the attitude that politics is bad.
Many of our students have the same attitudes toward politics my grandmother had about
sex, you know, it was very Victorian: you only did it as means to an end, you weren’t
supposed to enjoy the process, take a shower afterward, you never talked about it, you didn’t
study about it. And so they would only engage in politics if they felt dragged into it; many
of them would feel dirty afterwards. I mean the attitudes we have about politics and
politicians are the attitudes we had about “dumb blondes” and “niggers” when I was young.
It is biased and bigoted and it’s poisonous to our culture. And we can joke about lawyers
and politicians now, with the same impunity that you used to be able to joke about “dumb
Pollack’s” or “Irishmen” or “dumb blondes” or “black men from the south” or something.
You can’t joke about those things anymore, praise god. And so we have a terrible,
dysfunctional, black hole in the way we disempower our young people in the education we
give them.
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�And not only that, our professors (but our professors don’t know it), they’re like, in many
cases, a bunch of celibate Catholic bishops who are talking to people about sex, you know.
They just don’t get it; I mean they have never had the on-job experience. That’s why they
are often in universities. And look how bitter and how easily some of our professional
colleagues burn out because the bureaucracy doesn’t work in their Cinderella, Robin Hood
mythology that’s totally unrealistic and unfounded. They hold to that because they don’t
have anything else rational. And they don’t consider that a rational part of their thinking in
life. They respond to that emotionally and glandularly: where they use their intellect in a lot
of parts of their personal and professional roles (say with professional colleagues here), but
they haven’t been aware that there is science out there in this and they shouldn’t figure it
out. I mean we were treated the same way when we were trained to be educators as
professors. We had no formal training in that, that’s on-the-job the same way we had our sex
training. We had some good role models and some bad role models, and we bumble around
and try. We don’t monitor it and measure it; we don’t try different learning practices that
much. And it’s not an area where we apply our science. I mean the studies that I did on how
and why entry-level professionals were succeeding and failing in the Forest Service, you
know part of their failure was the poor, dysfunctional way they were educated and role
modeled. So we have to take credit for that.
BM:
So today, if you were working with the Forest Service and you had that job back again, what
kinds of training would you recommend?
JK:
Well to continue what we’re doing. The problem is in all this wanting to get together there
was real suspicion about different professional groups going off by themselves, they thought
they were becoming clannish and not part of the mainstream and identifying too much with
a particular specialty.
BM:
So what are the different professions? Biology [inaudible]
JK:
Engineers, foresters, yeah, and watershed, soils people. And so they pretty much – plus
that’s expensive: it’s a full week. It’s hands-on; it’s expensive. And many of the training
programs have been gutted and reduced and thrown into big groups where they have a lot of
motivational people come in, at one extreme, and a lot of agency line officers come in at the
other end of the extreme, and talk to them about policy and stuff which is pretty boring. And
in terms of life skills and survival skills and really getting in touch with their humanity as
well. I mean that was part of it too. We focused a lot on that. And really you have to love
yourself to be able to love and care about others. You have to take care of yourself if you are
going to have anything left over to care for the land and care for some of your colleagues.
And be a person in the agency that is a healer, rather than a slasher or a “salt on the
wounds,” or someone who just ignores people and walks on the other side of the road to
Damascus when you see someone in a ditch. Because you’ve got your head up in the air, in
theory, or you’re doing important things. So someone is having marital problems or is
obviously having alcohol addiction problems in the way they’re showing up or not showing
up. And just deal with that because that’s good work for groups of people and human
beings. So you can’t separate that from being a good biologist or an engineer. You can, but I
don’t think it’s functional or healthy or sustainable.
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�BM:
So when you talk about the difference in training here at Utah State with the College of
Natural Resources, we’re separated into Wildland Resources and Watershed, and then we
have Environment and Society.
JK:
Yeah. And the whole core educational program that I worked so hard to pull off, where we
were in the vanguard of the world (not just North America), by having core courses and
bringing all of our young people together in initial courses and talk to them about the dark
side of their professional: myopia and pride and arrogance. And we’ve balkanized, you
know. We were Yugoslavia, like Yugoslavia was from the ‘70s through the mid-90s, and
now we’ve balkanized just like Yugoslavia. And we have the Serbs and the Croats and the
Bosnians, you know. We have the same thing with the hard sciences and the soft sciences.
When I really want to confront my colleagues (and I can get away with it as an economist
and as male), I talk to them about the erect sciences and the flaccid sciences.
BM:
[Laughing]
JK:
Some of them just squirm. But I’m playing Coyote with them; because it’s often at that level
and that level of intellectual foundation. It’s at the glandular level: hard science, soft
science, social science, true science. Calculus versus college algebra; how you’re not worthy
unless you go through that. It’s more sinister than substance in that. But it’s very powerful
and it’s a deep undercurrent.
BM:
Let’s bring it a little bit closer to home then, to Logan Canyon in terms of as someone who
is living here and working here, some of the policies that you saw impacting the canyon and
some of the activities that were going on here. You also mentioned that you recreated with
your family up there. So could we talk a little bit also about some of those special places,
and maybe how policy sort of changed those?
JK:
Sure. Well the biggest policy battles I’ve been involved with Logan Canyon from the early
‘70s has been always the highway; UDOT eventually wanting to put four lanes of concrete
up through that place. I think. Maybe, maybe we’ve slowed them down enough – you know
that’s one of the last canyons that doesn’t have major highways slashed through it.
Most of the other stuff is that with all the times I’ve been on sabbaticals, with all the
traveling we’ve done in the summer, I haven’t staked a claim on a watershed or an area
where I’ve become a defender of it. I love skiing on Green Canyon and I really respected
them closing that off. There used to be four wheel drives and snowmobiles up there all the
time. And making it an urban, short day use recreational area for families and everything.
To be able to work a fulfilling day and be in cross-country skis twelve minutes after you
close the door in your office, and ski to the darkness of the evening and turn around and still
see the red glow as you come down; gravity brings you down that canyon. We used to go up
there and ski at night a lot; just a wonderful gift for me.
Most of the areas that I really used are just that beautiful basin below Third Dam, off to the
south. We’d go up towards that glacial circ up there, that beautiful area. I mean that is such
a beautiful area! And it’s just so quick and easy to get to. You know, we’d go up to Tony
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�Grove and we’d hike up there and things like that. When I was director of summer camp and
staying there at nights, I would run at night up through those old logging roads and dirt
roads up behind camp. It was just gorgeous country. Again, I think the land up there is
healed up more and it looks better (and probably functioning better) than it did years ago –
ten, 20, 30, 50 years ago.
BM:
And what would you attribute that to?
JK:
Just less timber harvesting, more controlled wood scrounging, and especially grazing: better
grazing management. And really the market system has really cut down on the motivation to
graze sheep up there, you just couldn’t make money. Plus the labor costs and scarcity of
labor for the shepherds, took care of a lot of battles with the sheep, in a very quiet way that
is much more acceptable than political battles in our culture (for better or worse).
Listen, why don’t you shut this down a bit.
[Stop and start recording.]
Well and the context – so much of my responses to your questions on policy and
involvement in the Forest Service is ironic, but I’ve had probably the least impact on Region
4 (this region) that I’ve spent almost 40 years in, than the rest of the agency. I’ve spent
much more time and have been much more accepted and welcomed into the Region 6
[Pacific Northwest Region] culture; I think they’re more liberal and they’re more mobile.
Region 4 is pretty homestead, you know. Folks usually stay within the region and don’t
leave. I don’t know. You only have so many places to punch your dance card. My phone
would be ringing and I’d be saying, “Yes” to go to Milwaukee and to go to Portland and go
to Juneau, and be driving in the snow past Ogden – coming or going – to catch a plane. I’d
be thinking, “What are you doing? Are you nuts Kennedy?” As a result, that filled a lot of
my needs to do that. And on the weekends often we would go some place, especially after
the kids grew up. I didn’t spend that much time involved in Logan Canyon.
And with some people, like the high Uintas we used to hike in when the kids were young, to
manage my guilt I would just support the high Uintas preservation group with Carter and
some of those folks – to be a spokesperson for me.
BM:
So that was one of the groups you were involved with?
JK:
Well, yeah initially, when he left the Wilderness Society and started that group.
BM:
And who is this person?
JK:
Dick Carter. [See Folk Collection 37: Box 3 & 4]
BM:
Dick Carter, okay.
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�JK:
Yeah. And he was one of my early students so I had a lot of respect for him. He was always
an activist, it was in his blood. Some students you just see in the audience and you know
that they’re going to be involved up to their elbows in that stuff.
I’ve been involved in surveys and I was involved in public meetings and things on their
planning, at the request of the district rangers (who I tended to know, but I haven’t known
the last two or three). So that’s kind of sad in a way, in my own backyard I’m the least
involved and probably the least known.
BM:
But it’s interesting in the perspective of the fact that it’s not that they’re behind the times
here, it’s that the culture is different and they are – how would you say it? They look at it
through a different lens?
JK:
They’re more entrenched, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. But I mean, really they
haven’t had the pressures that Oregon and Washington had in so many ways. And the values
were less environmentally oriented, so the populace hasn’t had a ground swell as they had in
those areas. Now that’s changing, happily. Of course Oregon has so many more people and
so much more money, and they needed so many more biologists because they had so much
mitigation work to do with all the activity they were doing up in the hills, for better or worse
(and often for worse). I spent an awful lot of time in Region 6, was well known in Region 6.
And loved going there because it was a different environment, and a different place; and you
go to a different city, like Portland. And sometimes Kathy would go with me. I spent a lot of
time there.
BM:
So what was it like to come back here then and watch what was going on here, knowing
what you saw in other places, as well as the kind of work that you were doing?
JK:
Well, I didn’t have the time and energy to mope about it too much. I tend to have faith that
things change, and I’m patient. [Laughing] I’ve learned patience. And yet I knew some
people and I respected them, and they respected me, but they wouldn’t ask me to be
involved as much because I usually would stir up action and excitement. That’s bothersome
to some people. Again, I don’t want to sound arrogant about them. Just by fate there were a
couple of regional foresters that we had a great personal and professional relationship with.
None of them have ever been in this region. Regional foresters trust you as an outsider;
they’re always calling you to do things. And it’s the same way with the chiefs, you know.
All the really sensitive national studies where we looked at the soul of the Forest Service, I
was in charge of. And they never edited me. I mean they just gave me a scalpel and rib
separators and said, “Here, we’ll support you. We want you to sample 15-20% of our people
and you just crank open their rib cage man, and you poke around in their heart.” They
trusted me to do that, and they never were betrayed.
BM:
And you did that through interview and surveys?
JK:
Yeah. I was the one that challenged them to look at their values and reward system. The
biggest heartburn and conflict at all state, especially the entry-levels of career, is when
people’s values are not consistent with the values that Forest Service rewards. And it’s the
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�same with the university. I’m not saying it’s not consistent with the values they mouth, the
values and their vision statement. What they say at the university or the Forest Service is
rewarded, is often much more consistent with what the values young people entering into
the profession hold dear and want to be rewarded. The real hypocrisy and the corrosive
effect on the agency culture, spirit and respect is when the agency says they reward values
that professionals endorse, and then they don’t. They reward other things. And the
university is the same hypocrisy, you see.
BM:
Oh, and I bet it’s true in other industries.
JK:
Oh yeah, but I think that’s true with most organizations. And it’s true with many families
too. “Oh we really care about our children. I really care about my spouse.” But put a
pedometer on their ankles or on their brain and their heart and see where their heart and
mind and ass spends most of their time. You’ll see that what you see and what you do is
often very, very different and hypocritical and dysfunctional in the long term; especially
when you don’t recognize or admit it.
And so the last study I did for the last kind of Vatican gathering of the council of the Forest
Service is – here I’ll show you. I just have to go over here and pull one off. I may even have
an extra.
Part of my not spending that much time in Logan Canyon, [was] of course [because], for the
last 15 years we’ve had a ranch in southern Utah, and every time I want to get in touch with
land I run there. I’m not the best person for the last 20-30 years about having an intimacy
with Logan Canyon. Most of the joy and thrill and contact I have with that National Forest
is just basking in its beauty visually and spiritually in the morning and the evening. And
waking up to it or looking out my window or facing a class and walking over to BNR314
and looking at the sun coming up over the mountain after the students thunder out, or the
sun setting on it and the snow turning pink. Thinking how blessed I am to live in this valley.
So it’s the ambiance, the indirect relationship I have with that. And I’ve hiked up on Mount
Logan – I just look up at it and remember that I’ve been there and know what it looks like
up there – and can still feel a joy walking over to my 3:30 class Wednesday, my Econ class
that’s two hours over in the Business Building. When I go have coffee I always sit at the bar
and face out the window. Even if I’m reading the paper, I’m looking over the top of the
paper all the time at that mountain. So you know I do cherish it. That’s one of the reasons
I’m here and came here. I haven’t had a hands-on relationship with it for quite a while.
BM:
But there’s also that being able to enjoy it from a distance, and those memories that are a
part of it. As well as you know, you think of how does that help regenerate you and just recharge you for the kinds of things that you need to go and do.
JK:
Oh, it’s a very spiritual relationship. Just as some people walk past a stain-glass window or
something, it has all those qualities.
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�BM:
You wonder if, you know, when you talk about just that simple act of being able to enjoy
the canyon from here, and you wonder how many people actually do that. Especially the
students – when you think of this incredible setting we’re in and it hits you in the face all the
time.
JK:
Yeah, yeah.
BM:
And in the changing light of day, you know, highlights the different parts of that
mountainside to the east. You know, how many people really think about that?
JK:
Yeah. Oh in the last two weeks it’s been some of the greenest I’ve ever seen it since 1970. It
looks like Ireland; it’s gorgeous! Maybe 10% of the last 30 years the soil has been that
saturated with moisture; it is amazing. Plus with the cool spring, we’ve put off the growth
spurt until the day length really is long. And man, those plants are like race horses: been
delayed in the starting gate for 15 minutes – they can’t wait to get out. And you can just see
them grow; you can just hear it almost.
BM:
The green up is amazing; it just really catches your eye. Ah! Let’s stop for a second.
[Stop and start recording.]
Okay, we’re back.
JK:
Now all the research that I did was never funded by the research money – not a dime. It was
always out of operating. It was line officers that had problems, had questions; had issues.
And they really wanted me to come in. That’s why I could never have many graduate
students – they wanted me to come in and be a consultant. And they wanted the answers
next week. I mean I’d say, “Over the summer I can find a good grad student, and we’ll study
it for two years, we’ll have a publication.” “No way.” That was not their time dimension.
They were in a hurry and they had real issues. Now it was sad that I’d hire people that were
on campus for six months, or six weeks, to do something and that was grand. But I never
developed a cadre of PhD students and things like that because I could never get long-term
funding. And these folks kept me so busy doing things I thought were important and were
immensely rewarding.
The nice thing about that though is you never lamented them not using your results. In fact
they over-used them sometimes. They would, you know. I would say, “Wait a minute! This
is only two regions, this isn’t a national study.” “No, no, no; let’s put it in place, we’ll start a
program!” You know, and you’re around these people that are actionary people – they were
so much different than researchers. And their time dimensions, their sense of urgency and
often their personal bonding – I mean they didn’t want to lose another woman wildlife
biologist. It was too hard to recruit them, and the last one that left broke their heart because
she had a lot of potential. And they saw it as a real failure and an accident that they would
like to avoid. So that was pretty heady and rewarding.
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�I did respect the Forest Service social scientists. Hendee, Stankey
and Lucas were some of
the best social scientists on the planet in the area of natural resources.
BM:
Could you – you’ve got the first name?
JK:
Hendee, Stankey and Lucas – they were the last names. You’d all know them? [John
Hendee, George Stankey & Robert Lucas. ]
BM:
George Stankey?
JK:
Yeah. They all came up with the first studies of wilderness areas and boundary waters canoe
areas; and the landscape architects in the Forest Service coming up with all the visual
management stuff. People in Europe, that’s what they wanted to get from us. I mean they
thought they knew all they needed to know about silviculture (and chances are they did), or
game management in Germany or New Zealand. In the early 1900s if there were floppy
disks, Germany and France could’ve given us floppy disks on how to manage our forests,
how to create a National Forest Service, and how to educate our forestry students. We
essentially just took that and put it right into our (metaphorically) computers in 1900, and
just followed them like a blueprint. But what we gave back to that area of the world and the
rest of the world when we started being innovative was NEPA, really.
From the ‘60s and ‘70s on, we were ahead of all the rest of the natural resource agencies in
the western world and planet. Because the previous ones – this whole machine model of
conservation: sustaining the flow of (primarily) commodities – was designed for an
industrial state with a large part of the population still being rural. They were able to have
that kind of blood and blister relationship with producing commodities. But in a restrained
way (and that’s what sustained was – it was a bridle on us race horses or plow horses out
there) to manage the land in a way that wouldn’t destroy the long-term productivity. That’s
the way the laws and the philosophy always was; but as we became an urban, post-industrial
society (and I’ve written extensively on that) there was a different relationship with the land.
It was urban and it was much more romantic and idealistic; much less blood and blister. And
I have nothing against romanticism – I’m a romantic and I’m going to die one. I’m even
romantic about death.
The Danish Forest Service, they were still stuck in a rural, industrial model of society’s
relationship with their natural resources. And society just was not there. And we thought it
was society’s problem. Look at all the effort Weyerhaeuser invested to try to get the public
to love clear cuts, you know. No way. And maybe we can get people to love root canals. I
mean they just don’t like it, you know. And it looks bloody ugly; and don’t tell me it’s going
to look good in 50 years! I’m already 50 and I’m not going to be here! And that’s not
renewable as far as I’m concerned, buster.
And in many ways it’s always been the case that the public are libertarians and foresters and
wildlife/fisheries biologists, we’ve always been communists. We look at the stand, and the
population, and the long-term. And that’s a very impersonal, abstract relationship where
people don’t cut that tree or those trees along that stream in a very libertarian way. And we
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�respond like communists, “You’ve got to think in the long term, lady. Don’t get emotional.
You know this has a purpose; we’re going to plant it back. It’s all going to be back and
you’ve got to focus on the masses, not the individual. And don’t be bleeding heart about it;
you’ve got to be a bit abstract.”
That’s the argument I used to have with my classmates at Penn State in the ‘60s and ‘70s.
And so there’s a built in conflict between the public and natural resource managers. We are,
by our nature and by what society really expects of us, dealing with the long-term
productivity and sustainability of systems to look at it in a larger, more abstract way. Some
people think it’s impersonal, where we love the system. You know, Stalin would probably
say he loved the masses of Russians, as he was killing about 5% of the population every
decade. It just didn’t fit into his image. It had to be done to cull the stand, to get rid of the
weed trees. You know, to manage it for long-term, abstract goals – which sustained yield is,
or sustainability is a pretty abstraction too. And it’s a much more organic model.
[Stop recording.]
[Tape 4 of 4: A]
Susan needs to pick up from here and finish the transcript with the last tape I have sent over.
Thanks, Barbara
Randy Williams: I do not have the fourth tape. Sent email to Barb on 1/7/2011 and again on
7/12/2011 about it.
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�
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Jim Kennedy interview, 4-5 May 2009, and transcription
Description
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Kennedy discusses his childhood experiences in nature and feelings toward nature. He talks about his professional career and relationships (with the Forest Service and as a professor at Utah State University), and how those have helped him form his current perspective and worldview. The transcript for tape 4 is not included as of 10/10/12
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Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940-
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Middleton, Barbara
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Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Interviews
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Childhood and youth
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Family
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Career in Forestry Education
Trapping--Pennsylvania--Montgomery--Anecdotes
Farm life--Pennsylvania--Montgomery
Dairy farming--Pennsylvania--Anecdotes
Delta Upsilon Fraternity
Utah State University. College of Natural Resources--Faculty--Interviews
Forestry teachers--Biography
College teaching--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes
Mentoring in education
Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes
Box, Thadis W.
Ecology--Study and teaching
United States. Forest Service
United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees--Training of
Career education
Occupational training
Kennedy, James Joseph, 1940---Religion
Natural resources--Law and legislation--Utah
Multiculturalism
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (Association)
Recreation--Utah--Green Canyon (North Logan)
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Cache Valley (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Bear Lake County (Idaho)
Rich County (Utah)
Philadelphia (Pensylvania)
Pennsylvania
Mink Creek (Idaho)
Emigration Canyon (Idaho)
Mount Logan (Utah)
Green Canyon (North Logan, Utah)
Idaho
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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eng
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 6
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/0057aec5e49ff98be54dc955f758ee12.mp3
475bd1becfcac6cbe06837883a6c651a
http://highway89.org/files/original/2ff5831c9365bee55920e58d6c6717b0.pdf
03f6ac5e6ec24f8075f3f1f3008b96e4
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
John K. Hansen
Place of Interview: Garden City, UT
Date of Interview: 12 March 2009
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Radio Shack Tape Recorder, CTR-122
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Randy Williams, 6 July 2011; Becky Skeen, Fall 2012
Brief Description of Contents: Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah on his
families’ cow and sheep operation, including yearly cycle of ranching: haying, feeding cattle and
sheep, moving animals, protecting lambs from predators; his earliest memories of Logan
Canyon; three years in the South Pacific during World War II; 18 years in highway construction
with WW Clyde and Company in Springville, Utah; returning to Garden City to take over family
sheep ranch.
Reference:
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
JH = John Hansen (Interviewee)
NH = Noreen Hansen (Interviewee’s wife)
BH = Bonnie Hansen (Interviewee’s daughter)
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 3: A]
BM:
I’m going to watch the tape every now and then.
This is Barbara Middleton and we are here in Garden City. And this is tape 1, side A.
And we are here in the home of John --
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�JH:
BM:
John K. Hansen.
John K. Hansen. And we are just getting started on the first interview with John. So I am
going to have him start off with talking about when and where he was born and a little bit
of his background. John.
JH:
Okay. I was born right here in Garden City, about a mile west of Garden City in my
grandfather’s home. The old home still stands there. That was August the 16th, 1924. As I
say, that home still stands there. As you go up the highway toward Logan from the last of
the service stations, as you begin to climb the hill it’s on your left down off the grade.
You can still see that white home down there, it’s still there.
BM:
So this is Highway 89?
JH:
Yeah, uh-huh.
BM:
Up the canyon, okay.
JH:
Yeah. And I still have a cousin and his wife living there. My grandparents moved out and
moved over to Logan at the outbreak of World War II. And they owned a sheep ranch
there. They had three sons that worked on that ranch and they all had different things to
do. After I grew up enough to be of much help to them I used to help with the haying and
with one thing or another. Most of my life was spent right here where we’re sitting except
for I spent nearly three years in the South Pacific during World War II. That was from
one end of the Pacific to the other, with a few stops in between. Then I spent 18 years in
highway construction with WW Clyde and Company over down in Springville, Utah.
Then I came back here when my brother had passed away; my dad had been gone for
several years and had this ranch here. When my brother passed away he was running the
ranch for mother. So I had to come back and I had to quit construction and come back
here to help her out. And I’ve been here ever since. I don’t know whether it was a good
thing or a bad thing!
[Laughing]
JH:
Today, with the way things are why there just isn’t much in farming and ranching. There
isn’t anything here in Garden City anymore. There is so much development; there isn’t
what you could call a stable farm or ranch here that would be in full production, like there
used to be.
BM:
So let’s talk a little bit about that, in terms of you started out with sheep ranching and
haying and of course have seen a lot of change. Would you go back and talk a little bit
about the early years of that sheep ranching and what the haying was like?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And how old were you at that time?
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�JH:
Well, when I got old enough to be much help in the hay fields – the hay at that time was
all put by a horse plow, with horse drawn mow machines and hay rakes and everything
else. They just started using overshot stackers. Well, that was quite a job to work on the
pull-up with a team of horses.
BM:
That’s where the horses --?
JH:
Yeah, the horses pulled it up on what they call an “overshot stacker” and I had the job of
driving the team to put the hay on the stack.
BM:
So it was a team of two horses that pulled out?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. A regular team.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And then I had the job also of raking up the scatters which was a job for me because you
didn’t trip the hay rig with your foot like you did later on, you did that with a lever. And
sometimes in heavy hay that lever would just about yank you right off of the hay rig.
[Laughing]
JH:
And I wasn’t very big anyhow, so [laughing]. But that was my job to start out with.
BM:
You know, I have seen that. And that’s a pretty quick operation.
JH:
It is.
BM:
You had to be fast.
JH:
You have to know what you’re doing and if you’re on that pull-up on the stacker that
reaches the top, you can tip the stacker right over on top of that hay stacker over on top of
them stacking hay, if you’re not careful. But they usually had it chained down with stakes
driven in the ground to keep that from happening. But you had to hit that hard enough, let
your team to hit that hard enough up at the very top so that hay would shoot off, and then
you would back your team up just a little bit and let that momentum carry the stacker
head back.
BM:
And how high did you build these hay stacks?
JH:
They were up about, some of them 18-20 feet.
BM:
So this hay was stored out in these big piles, and just left open to the rain and such?
JH:
No, no. We stacked all of our hay right here – we had a big field out here in the south of
town where we had our wild meadow hay. And all the hay that was in here we stacked
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�right here behind the barn. Generally we would have about four stacks of hay – real good,
big stacks of hay when we’re done. And then it would be fenced in. Out in the meadow
we did the same thing. We had stockyards built out there, because if you didn’t you
always fed your livestock out where the hay was, so you had to fence those yards in or
you wouldn’t have any hay left!
BM:
[Laughing] So you had these stacks at two different places?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Out here, when are you going out and feeding your animals? Is it once a day?
JH:
Ordinarily we always fed our cattle and sheep twice a day, both of them.
BM:
And how do you get out there?
JH:
In the wintertime with a hay rack and a team and sleighs, and you went out and opened
the gate and drove in beside your haystack and pitched a load on and hauled it out in the
field and strung it off to the animals. Whatever you were feeding: sheep or cattle; you
never fed the two of them together.
BM:
Hmm. And why not? Why won’t you feed them both together?
JH:
Because the cattle chase the sheep off.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
They would eat – they were just too rough on the sheep. And by the time in the
wintertime, why your ewes would be getting heavy with lamb, and it was just too
dangerous. So you fed them separate.
BM:
Um-hmm. So you have them in pastures, fenced in different pastures –
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah.
BM:
And you have to get the sleighs into both of these pastures –
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
To come and feed them. Were the animals waiting for you?
JH:
You bet, standing there at the gate [laughing]. And one thing that I haven’t saw in this
valley for years – all while I was growing up as you remember – well our winters, we had
snow over here that you couldn’t see the fences.
BM:
Oh, wow!
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�JH:
You couldn’t see the fences. A lot of times we would just drive our teams and sleighs
right over the fences and go right out to the stockyard. And I don’t know why, but the
stock just stayed there – you would have thought they would have followed the sleigh
roads back.
BM:
Right.
JH:
But they didn’t. They stayed pretty – that’s why we fed them twice a day (that’s one
reason why). The other reason why, my dad always had a lot of consideration for his
animals and it fell off on me too. You know, in bitter cold weather an animal needs to
have some feed for it in the mornings – just like you want to have suppertime –
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay, so did they. And they did better and it didn’t take as much hay either. You would
think so, but it didn’t. It didn’t take all that much hay extra. In the springtime then, your
animals are ready to go out on the range when it comes time to go and if feed was a little
short (which it generally was), why then they could get by a whole lot better until the
feed began to come up better so they could get a mouthful, you know?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
We always came in with a top weight on our lambs and our calves. And your animals do
so much better and they didn’t resent you and you could work them a whole lot better,
which just made the work so much easier for the persons that are working them. In the
past I have worked for other cattlemen where they fed their cows whether they need it or
not. Come calving time you had a mighty tough time with the calving process. The poor
old cows had an awful time. And you would pull more calves than you could shake a
stick at.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
And the same way with the sheep. In other words, a weak animal is nothing to have. So
we always got by that way and did just fine. And that’s what we did when I took this
place over, come back to it. We didn’t have the sheep – my dad sold the sheep when the
War came on.
BM:
Um-hmm. Now before you go into that – you just went through almost a whole year of
your cattle-sheep cycle. Let’s break that down a little bit, because there are some
interesting things there. To me, as far as having them contained and then you’re getting
them out onto what I assume was the Cache National Forest?
JH:
Well, we could always go on the forest on the first day of July. And then on the tenth day
of September, your time was up and you came off the forest. And then you had to have a
spring and fall range to go with that.
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�BM:
Now, did the cattle go one place and the sheep go another?
JH:
Yeah. Well, pretty much so, pretty much so. In the earlier years, back in the Depression
years when things were really tough, why they had the sheep and the cattle pretty much
together. They just put them out – with the sheep, they were herded. If you didn’t, you
would wreck that grazing land (wherever it was – on the forest or your own), you would
wreck that grazing land right quick.
BM:
Um-hmm. And is that because of them eating down close to the ground?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm, yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
So that’s one thing I would like to stress if it’s your dealing you say with people who hear
about these things and without a doubt you too yourself have heard about the old sheep
and cattle wars where the cattlemen wanted to run all of the sheep out of the country, and
vice versa. And they couldn’t get along. Well my dad never did put his herd out in the
morning in the same place they grazed yesterday.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And he would go back over that and he would evaluate what those sheep took yesterday
because different feed, and the sheep will get on a barren hillside with nothing but white
gravel on that thing, and feed for hours at a time! And you’d wonder, “What in the world
are they eating rocks for?” So you ride your horse over there and sit there and watch for
an hour what they’re doing. And then you’re going to get off the horse and walk over
there and move that sheep out of the road – our sheep are just about as gentle as they
could be – and here is a rock about that big around that was sticking up and all around it
was gray moss. That’s what they were eating! A cow would never eat that, so the sheep
man he always got blamed for dropping out the forest. And some of them did, don’t get
me wrong. Because there were some men who overgrazed in other words, and that’s one
thing I never saw my dad do or my grandfather.
BM:
Um-hmm. So your grandfather and your dad both started that business and you were the
third then, in your family that continued that? Third generation?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. I didn’t do sheep. Like I say, when World War II came along, Dad sold
the sheep because he figured my older brother would be going into the service right
quick. I was a junior in high school, at that particular time, and he didn’t figure that he
could get along with me, with the sheep. And him trying to be down here and get the
irrigating done and everything else that goes with a ranch, you know.
BM:
So then he became just a cattleman?
JH:
So he took the money and went and bought cows instead.
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�BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And he bought himself one heck of a job! [Laughing] Because the cattle that he bought
were wild, dirty stinkers!
BM:
Really?
JH:
Yes, they were! I’ll tell you what!
BM:
Where did you go to buy cattle at this time? I mean are you talking about buying cattle in
the valley?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So there are other people that are selling off their herd?
JH:
Yeah, well the cattle he bought was right down there in the same town –
BM:
Ovid. Okay, Ovid, Idaho.
JH:
And the man he bought those cows from – his last name was Olsen. They were the
wildest bunch of miserable animals you’ve ever seen!
BM:
So how did you get them here? How did you bring them from Ovid?
JH:
They trucked them up here.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
Yeah, they trucked them.
NH:
And the kids down there were the same!
[Laughing]
BM:
So when you got the cattle on the land here, how were they wild?
JH:
Oh, you just have to be around a sheep outfit, but never had any cattle. You’ve got sheep
curls about that high, and they was nothing to a cow! They would just go through her like
a Sherman tank!
[Laughing]
JH:
Down here on this lake shore below us, clear along here for oh, half a mile – just a solid
line of sheep sheds where they lambed all the sheeps. Now my dad’s brother had a herd,
and they ran them together – so that’s where they would lamb them out down here in the
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�early spring. They would start lambing right around the 15th of April and that’s where
they would do it.
BM:
Was there a certain weather condition that they needed?
JH:
The warmer, the better; the warmer the better. And, the drier the better.
BM:
Is it warm here at that time of year.
JH:
It was pretty warm.
NH:
It was!
[Laughing]
BM:
What’s the temperature April 15th? What do you remember?
JH:
Back then? It was kicking right around 40 degrees.
BM:
And snow? Did you have snow?
JH:
Yeah, there would still be a little snow, not much snow. There would still be a lot of ice
on the lake.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
That was one of my jobs when we had the sheep. I’d come home from school and hook
up a team of horses and go around – this is all slough down here clear over to my uncle’s
place. I had to go around to his gate and back around with my team and hook them on to
a sled. We had four open top, 50 gallon barrels on there and there is a good spring right
below the sheds. I’d go down there with a bucket – 5 gallon bucket – and fill those
barrels full. And I’d come up and go through those sheep sheds and water the sheep at
night.
BM:
Oh! So they were in and they were waiting for you to shear them?
JH:
Well, they generally didn’t shear those sheep until, oh around the 10th of June – it was
just too cold.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
My dad and his brothers – spring and fall range was over on this side – you’ve seen
where that little segment of “R” on top of the hill?
BM:
Um-hmm.
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�JH:
Well, their spring and fall ranges were immediately below that.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
There were about four sections of land in there that the two of them had together and they
ran on, that they homesteaded. So that’s where they take them over after they got through
lambing out, why they would put the two herds together and then they would trail them
over. It would take them about three days to get them over there with all them young
lambs in the bunch.
BM:
And what are they trailing them through? What’s the landscape like? Is it dry at that
time?
JH:
Yeah. It’s pretty dry. You would be getting spring rain storms, you know, off and on
quite a bit. Most generally it was pretty nice weather.
BM:
Okay. And then, is that where you sheared them then?
JH:
Yeah, we sheared them over there.
BM:
Okay. So if your job was shearing, were you actually –
JH:
My job was right here with my mother. We had five or six milk cows.
BM:
Ahh.
JH:
And I had to go them night and morning and help her milk them milk cows.
NH:
[??]
[Laughing]
BM:
What time did you get up for that job?
JH:
Oh, we’d get up right around five o’clock on average. From the time I’d get those milk
cows milked and get them took out to pasture, why it was getting along towards eight
o’clock. And then when I come home at night, I had to go get them again and help her
milk them again!
[Laughing]
BM:
That’s a busy job. That’s another regular kind of thing you have to do every day.
JH:
Yeah. It’s an every day process – there’s just no getting away from it.
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�BM:
So then when it was shearing time, in between the milking of the cows were you down
there helping them with the sheep shearing?
JH:
Nope, no. That was all done across the lake over there on the east mountains. I just had to
stay here and help her and help her plant the gardens and stuff like that.
BM:
Sure because the weather was planting time.
NH:
Did you help lamb the lambs, when they were down -- ?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
So tell us about that – so that’s right across the street here.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay, tell us about the lambing.
JH:
Oh, that was a terrible job! [Laughing] That was a clock around job. You always had a
night shift to go on. They would hire a couple of guys and most generally, why they were
my dad and my uncle’s nephews that just lived around the corner there and they was both
married. They’d come over and one of them would come to work just as it was beginning
to get dark at night. And they would always pull a sheep camp down there so they’d have
a place to stay in all the weather. And then the other one would come over and relieve
him right shortly after midnight. And he would go until like six o’clock in the morning –
most generally five or four o’clock my dad was down there. And they’d hire those guys
to help them out that way.
And there was a job of having to feed those sheep down there off the hay rack. Those big
corrals we had down there – we had to board up the side of the wagons clear to the
ground so the ewes and the lambs couldn’t get under and get run over. And I fell under
that job more times than not! [Laughing] That was first thing in the morning, but when I
come home from school – lo and behold them milk cows were still staring me in the face!
BM:
So when are lambs typically born? Are they often night, or?
JH:
Anytime, any day. You could always tell when the pressure dropped you would get a
bunch of lambs. If the pressure dropped, why you’d have lambs all over. That was
another little job I had to do. They had a sheep boat it was just on a pair of skids (like that
water skid I was telling you about), only they had a little box on that thing. I would go
out through the corrals and generally either dad or my cousin or my uncle would go along
with me and we would gather up the lambs and ewes and put them in that thing. We had a
lot of space where we could put the ewes and the lambs in a pen to theirselves. And then
you had to constantly shift them and make room for the next go around. It was quite a
deal. And then if you weren’t watching real close, you could get those lambs mixed up
and then boy, there was all heck to pay!
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�[Laughing]
BM:
A lamb can lose it’s mom?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Huh. How do they know their mother?
JH:
They have their own smell, their own scent. Each one has their own scent. And that’s
how the mothers can tell their own lambs apart.
BM:
So when the mother gets sheared two months after the lamb was born, the lamb still
knows mom because she still smells the same even though she might look a lot different.
JH:
Um-hmm, yep. Oh yeah! That don’t bother them lambs. They know where that bottle of
milk’s at! [Laughing]
BM:
Don’t lambs have twins?
JH:
Yes.
BM:
And triplets sometimes?
JH:
Twins and triplets and sometimes four lambs – I’ve seen them have four lambs. But I
hated to see triplets, I just hated to see triplets. Because mama most generally didn’t have
the milk for them.
BM:
Oh!
JH:
So you would have to go through the herd and find a mama that only had one lamb. And
then the trick was to get mama to take that lamb. And until you could get her milk going
through that lamb, she wouldn’t have nothing to do with them.
BM:
So how do you do that?
JH:
You just tip the ewe up on her hind end and you suckle that lamb until he filled up and
then you put them back in the pen together. And if she got mean with him, why you’d
have to put him in a little side pen next to her. And then you always let that little lamb get
just a little on the hungry side – there was tricks just like there is in all trades [laughing] –
you just had to be able to figure out, you know, what was going on and understand your
animals. So you would let him get good and hungry and then you would take her lamb
(because she had one lamb), you would take her lamb and put him over in that pen with
the bum lamb. Then when you come back to feed those lambs, then odd lamb (to her),
he’s hungry enough to hang up the bottle and so is her lamb hungry enough. So then you
had to get a hold of that ewe and make her behave herself, and put a lamb on each side.
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�And every time she tried to reach around her to bump that spare lamb, why you just
popped her on the nose and let her behave herself.
BM:
So how many like, triplets did you have in the season? That’s a lot of work!
JH:
That is a lot of work! Thank heaven there wasn’t too many of them! [Laughing]
[End Tape 1: A; Begin Tape 1: B]
BM:
Tape 1, side 2. And we’re continuing with the sheep and the bum lamb and getting it to
take to a different mother.
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah. Okay, so you made her behave herself and made her keep standing up so
both lambs (on each side) could suck. A mother will always turn around and stick her
nose right back under that lamb’s tail. That’s how she identifies that lamb, is by her milk
going through that lamb. So that’s why then once you can get her to behave herself and
get enough of her milk going through the bum lamb. And then if she don’t want to stick
her nose around there and recognize him, you bend it around her and make her do it. You
could save little lambs that way.
BM:
How do you bend a sheep around? I mean aren’t these sheep pretty big?
JH:
Yeah. The average of my dad’s sheep – they were big old Columbia ewes – and they
weighed around 150 pounds. And I’ll tell you what, you’ve got a job to do.
BM:
And how old were you at the time?
JH:
Oh, I guess I was about 14 when I would help them down there. Then I would go through
their corrals with them and help them that way when I could. In later years here I had a
little herd of my own here on the place. I would lamb them right here and sheared them
out right here. So I knew all about how to handle them.
BM:
Now one other thing, before you go on to that: you were mentioning that sometimes the
mother didn’t take to the – what did you call it? Bum lamb.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So there were times when you had to supplement and feed yourself.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Could you tell us a little bit about that?
JH:
Well, if you was worth a hoot, you could make her take that lamb.
BM:
So it was pretty successful?
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�JH:
Yeah, it worked fine, it worked real good. We made that ewe stay in that pen until she
took that lamb, until she let that lamb suck. And then we would put her out in the bigger
pen with a few more ewes and their lambs and watch her, until you knew that she had the
lamb, she recognized the lamb and she would feed the lamb. And she would keep track of
it. But it was all the other lambs that came along like that – whether it was triplets and
you didn’t have any place to put two of them – why you bottle fed them. We’d keep them
around, we’d bottle feed those little beggars all summer.
BM:
Is this cow milk your?
JH:
Just cow milk, yep. Just cow milk. [Laughing]
NH:
It wasn’t that much of a job! [Laughing]
JH:
The only problem I had, you would have a bum lamb and a bottle – those little beggars,
they liked to get a hold of that nipple on the end and they would just start chewing on that
and sucking on that, pretty soon they would back up and pop the nipple off. The milk
would go out! Then they’d run around in middle of the corral and spit the nipple out and
you would have to go find it and wash it off! It was a job, you know. It could try your
patience sometimes, but we always had some real good bum lambs to sell when the sheep
would come off the forest. Ordinarily my dad’s lambs weighed around, oh, around 90-95
pounds. Which is a real good lamb.
BM:
And how old would that lamb be?
JH:
That would be an April born lamb.
BM:
Okay. So when were the sheep and the lambs turned out on to the National Forest? When
did you turn them out for grazing?
JH:
That’s on the first day of July of the year.
BM:
Okay, so that’s July. So they are on the ground, they’re being born in April, so April,
May, June – they’re only like three months old.
JH:
Yep.
BM:
So how big is this lamb at this time? Is this like a loaf of bread? Is it -- ?
JH:
The newborn lamb?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Some of those little fellars would weigh, oh, I guess about six or eight pounds. I hated to
see that – I liked to see a smaller lamb more because it will get up and it will go. If
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�they’re any heavier than that in the cold weather, the little beggars will lay right there and
freeze to death if you ain’t right there.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
And then they get lazy and they don’t want to follow mama. If you’re moving them, like
on a range, why they won’t get up and follow mama, when she leaves them – goes and
begins to feed why they lay right there and then that ewe will have to go clear back there
and get that confounded lamb. A lot of time she can’t find it because the little cuss won’t
answer her. If the herder don’t know where that’s happened – if you ain’t watching your
herd in other words – why, that can happen you lose a lot of lambs. If it doesn’t happen
that way then the coyote gets them or the cat.
BM:
So that would have been one of the predators that –
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
Mountain lions or coyotes.
JH:
Or coyotes, yup.
BM:
Were there pretty healthy populations of those?
JH:
Oh, there was a lot of coyotes! There was a lot of coyotes. A lot of times we’d have to get
up in the night and go run them off. Over on the east side of the lake when they first got
up there in the spring – take the old lanterns and hang lanterns all around the bedding
ground. You never let them sheep just sleep anywhere, you put them on the bed ground
so you could watch them.
BM:
Huh! And you put lanterns around the edge?
JH:
Um-hmm. Put lanterns all around your bed ground and that would help keep the coyotes
out of them. But a lot of times you had to go out there and run the dang things off.
BM:
So you’re on horseback running –
JH:
No. No, you’re on foot at night.
BM:
Oh.
JH:
You just go out there and when it’s dark you can’t see nothing anyhow – you just go out
there and run them off the best you can.
BM:
Um-hmm. Did you yell?
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�JH:
Yeah. You just had to holler and be careful how you done it because if you got to yelling,
why the next thing you know your whole herd got off the bed ground and gone out in the
sagebrush somewhere!
BM:
Holy smokes! So how many of you are doing this? How many of you are watching the
bedding grounds as well as running off – how many people are managing? One.
JH:
Um-hmm. Just the herder.
BM:
And that’s you?
JH:
Well, sometimes it was. After we got out of school in the middle of June, why there was
no school so I would go out and let my dad come home and do some things that he
needed to do. Over there, you know, there are some nasty looking rattlesnakes, and out in
the dark with them sheep. You could get pretty snaky! [Laughing]
BH:
So Dad, was that the common way most sheep herders did? Was just one sheep herder?
JH:
Yeah. Well, not too much. Pert near all the sheep men around here -- and there was a lot
of them in Rich County. Over here right across from us and clear up into Idaho, there was
eight herds of sheep over there.
BM:
Clear up would be like –
JH:
Up there at Mud Lake – east of Mud Lake.
BM:
Gotcha.
JH:
There was eight herds of sheep over there, besides what was over here. Nine out of ten of
them had a Mexican herder. A big part of them had a Mexican herder.
BM:
Hmm. And why was that?
JH:
Didn’t have to pay them so much.
[Laughing]
BM:
Cheap labor.
JH:
Yep, cheaper labor.
NH:
And the [inaudible] didn’t make them herd sheep.
BM:
Oh, okay.
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�JH:
But you know, where the bulk of those old Mexican herders, they were the nicest people
you’d ever want to be around. For example, if we picked up some of their stray sheep,
we’d come out of our herd and then we’d take them over (with their brand on them, you
know, we knew which herd they went to) so quick as we got a chance we would take
them over there to that herd. And then you could sit there and visit with – if you could
understand that Mexican. Most of them, they could talk broken English pretty fair, you
know. He’d ask you if you’d want, “How about a cup of coffee before you go back?” or
something like that, and you could talk about things.
Most of the herds that was right here came from the Nebeker Ranch right over here. We
was right by them. So if they had any problem at all over there – and all those herders
rode mules – the orneriest bunch of contemptible animals you’ve ever seen in your life!
[Laughing]
NH:
Now he could have said something worse!
[Laughing]
BM:
Oh, tell me about these mules!
JH:
Yep, they were good. They were good mountain animals to ride if you could stay on
them! Yeah. You had to ride them with a breast strap on your saddle and a britchen on
the back end to keep the saddle from sliding over his ears.
BM:
Right!
JH:
And when you’re going up hill the breast strap kept the saddle from coming back and
sliding off the tail end!
But anyway, if they happen to get or something, why they would come over to our camp
and we didn’t have much of a problem to get down here, the Nebeker Ranch, and let
them know about it.
BM:
Now why mules? Did the Mexicans that worked the sheep – did they bring mules with
them, or is that something that was locally used?
JH:
Nope. Nope, that was just what was locally used on some sheep outfits.
BM:
And why not horses?
JH:
Well, mule don’t take as much feed and he’s got a lot of good stamina; and I guess
mostly that was probably the reason why most of those sheep men furnished mules
survived.
BH:
Dad, were horses more expensive than mules?
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�JH:
You know, they were to go buy a good horse.
NH:
Well a mule would eat what a horse wouldn’t eat too, wouldn’t they?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
So they eat less and they eat a different kind of feed?
JH:
Well, they eat the same thing as far as that goes. I’ve seen them go strip the bark off
cedar trees and eat the bark off of cedar trees.
BM:
Ooh. Well it also sounds like you’re in some pretty rough country, if you need to both tie
your saddle off on the tail and with a breast collar – you’re going up and down some
rugged hills!
JH:
You do! You do over there! Back here on the forest it’s even steeper than that! We had to
use breast straps and troopers on all of our back horses because you couldn’t keep a pack
on there right. One thing about that job, if you didn’t know how to throw a square cinch
tie, you was in trouble! You could never keep a pack on a pack saddle. So when I was
with my dad, why I learned how to tie that knot. [Laughing] You use what they call
“swing cinches” to work on that knot. I’d crawl up on top of that load and roll the square
end so he could hook the other end of rope through it; and when you pulled it down to a
cinch, it would just pull a square knot just about that big. And that pack didn’t move.
BM:
Hmm. Could you still tie that knot today?
JH:
I don’t know whether I could or not! [Laughing]
NH:
I think he could.
JH:
I don’t know whether I could or not!
[Laughing]
BM:
So when you were tying this up – it sounds like you’re going out to stay for awhile with
supplies for a sheep camp?
JH:
Yeah. Well every time you moved camp – and you had to move, ordinarily we would
move camp up here about, oh nearly every other day. Like I say, the easier you took it on
your feed allotment up there, the better feed you had next year. And your water supplies,
your spring supplies – it is amazing at how much it helped those spring supplies!
BM:
What do you mean by that? Tell me more about how the grazing helps the spring.
JH:
Well, you know you’ve seen where the grass is burned in the summer months, burned
right to the ground – where it’s never had anything. It hasn’t had enough water all
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�summer long. Well that’s what it looks like if you over-graze it. Well there is nothing
there to hold the summer rains that comes; to revitalize that feed and keep your water
supply up. So over-grazing hurts that range more than anybody could ever think.
Anybody that does that is doing nothing but hurting their own self and their animals.
BM:
Um-hmm. And you probably saw some of that?
JH:
Oh, I’ve seen too much of it.
BM:
So what makes that change? Were you and your dad and your grandfather – was the
permit system already in place then in the forest?
JH:
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh I don’t think I was much more than, what – maybe five years
old – when my dad – well my grandfather came into this country with the first herd of
sheep that came into Bear Lake Valley.
BM:
When was that?
JH:
I can’t tell you the year – he was a very young man himself, and he herded sheep for a
big sheep company out west of Ogden. [Thinking out loud] What in the heck is that little
town out west of Ogden?
BM:
Were you around Lucerne? In that area?
JH:
No, this is right straight west of Ogden –
NH:
It’s not Roy –
JH:
No, no.
BM:
But you’re west of town and east of the lake then?
JH:
Oh yeah, yeah. I’m just telling you where he grew up. He lived in that town. No.
NH:
No, Milton’s over in Cache Valley.
JH:
No. Well anyway, that’s where he was from. That’s where he was born and raised there.
When he was around, oh about 16 years old (oh, I guess he was 15 years old), he went to
work for one of those big sheep that’s out west of Ogden – Plain City!
BM:
Oh, okay: Plain City.
JH:
Plain City. That’s where he was from, Plain City. And then these big sheep outfits was
out toward the north side of Salt Lake. And they brought the first herd of sheep over in
this valley and he came over as a camp jack.
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�BM:
Hmm. What is a camp jack?
NH:
Cook! [Laughing]
JH:
No, he was just an all-around –
NH:
Handyman.
JH:
Handyman, yeah and a cook.
NH:
Except for your dad, he had to do his own! [Laughing]
JH:
My dad, later on after he had gotten married, he bought some sheep and he came over
and homesteaded that ranch up here. And part of that ranch is up there where you are
coming down the canyon, you know and making loops around?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And all the buildings back there? Well, that belonged to him and it went over north of
there, oh about a mile and a half. And it come this way almost over above the middle hill
over here. He homesteaded and bought; that’s where his spring and fall range is that. And
his summer range was all over Swan Creek Peak up here.
BM:
So tell me some of the landscape features. Before we turned the tape on you mentioned
some hollows and some areas. Take us like from the south end to the north end of where
he worked his sheep.
JH:
Well, our grandpa had his sheep over here on Swan Creek. His summer range was all
over Swan Creek; it was a sweet setup. You didn’t have to trail anywhere to get on the
horse. And it didn’t have very far to come off the horse. And most generally it had to be
off the Cache National by the 10th of September, they had to come off. Most of the guys
had to come off anyway to cut their lambs out and ship their lambs.
BM:
And who checked to make sure that you were off?
JH:
Hmm.
NH:
Forest Rangers.
JH:
Forest Rangers. I don’t know, I don’t really remember having them come and check us
off. I know right up here west of the golf course, over the top of the hill, they had what
they called the “Counting Trail” where you took your sheep on, on the first day of July.
And the ranger sits there on his horse and he counted your sheep on. And if you had more
in that herd than you was supposed to have, you had a problem on your hands trying to
keep that many sheep out of your herd and then finding a way to get them down home!
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�So you was pretty darn careful about going on that forest with the same amount of sheep
that your permit called for.
BM:
Does your permit change from year to year, as far as the number you can take?
JH:
Nope. Ours didn’t, some of them did.
BM:
And that would depend upon what?
JH:
That depended on that Forest Ranger. He’d come, oh generally he’d get around our herd
about, oh right around the first of September (some time in there) and he’d ride that
whole summer range: Dad’s whole allotment. And check the whole thing over. And that
was one thing my dad was always proud about, he had the best allotment of the whole
bunch because he didn’t overgraze.
BM:
So he sounds like he was very responsible with it.
JH:
He was. You never saw a more honest man in your life. I can blow about him!
[Laughing] I don’t think he would steal a six penny nail from anybody. But he knew
livestock, he knew what they were about and he knew what he had to do to keep them to
the point where they was going to make him some money.
BM:
And it sounds also like taking care of the landscape for next year’s grazing and –
JH:
Exactly, um-hmm. That’s right. Your watersheds – that was another thing that the old
ranger we had up here. I could remember him, he rode and old white horse. And he
would come over to our camp every Tuesday when he was up in there. Our range was
clear up – you know where the Beaver Mountain ski lift is? Okay, the actual Beaver
Mountain is not there. The actual Beaver Mountain at that time (and it still is) right across
Beaver to the north east. That big old mountain back in there –
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay. Our allotment went right up to the flats, the Beaver Flats. You go up through that
narrow canyon there, right up to the Beaver Flats. And there was a saw mill up there a
little ways and dad’s allotment ended right by that saw mill.
BM:
Do you remember the name of the saw mill?
JH:
I’m trying to remember. The man that owned that saw mill lived down there in St.
Charles. Hmm.
NH:
[Inaudible]
[Laughing]
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�JH:
Yeah, oh I’ll tell you my memory is just –
NH:
Oh about the saw mill and about St. Charles. Was it an Allred?
JH:
No. He had that mill up on the Beaver Flat.
BM:
Well, maybe we’ll think of it as we’re chatting.
NH:
I’ll go get the phonebook and go through it – that’s what I’ve done before!
[Laughing]
BM:
That’s a pretty big allotment.
JH:
It is. It wasn’t very wide. It came down as you come up above the Beaver turnoff and you
start making them turns, you know that kid has always had saddle horses in there.
BM:
Hmm, um-hmm.
JH:
And that’s one guy I’d like to take a boot to!
[Laughing]
BM:
Because?
JH:
He treats his horses like, I’d better not say it.
NH:
He does not feed them. He does not take care of them.
JH:
He stands those horses in the hot, boiling sun with a saddle on them, waiting for
somebody to come along and rent them. What in the world is wrong with that pine grove
behind them – taking them over there and tying them in the shade so they got a place at
least they’re not burning up!
BH:
Sometimes when we’re down that way, you know, I have to hang on to him so then
there’s no stopping and going out there and turning them horses loose!
[Laughing]
JH:
Well, I love a horse. You can’t beat a good horse and the only way you have a good horse
is to treat that horse like you would treat your own self. You know? I’ve always had a
horse that will work for me and the danged horse, just like a buddy.
BM:
So you had horses too? On the ranch?
JH:
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
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�BM:
So you didn’t have mules?
JH:
No. We didn’t have any mules, thank heaven! [Laughing]
BM:
So the horses then you used when you went out with the sheep in the summer time? You
would pack horses?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay. Do you remember any of the names of your horses?
JH:
Oh yeah! We had Old Lass and I had a little mare that I’d bought from an old fellar out
here (he had sheep and this was years and years later). The horses he used to put on his
sheep camp and I herded sheep for him a couple of years out here anyway, out on his
spring and fall range up on the top of south of Lake Town.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And he had some horses that were so old, they would start to stumble with you and
before they’d quit stumbling they’d be 100 feet down the road with you. They were just
wore out. So his son-in-law got a chance to buy some young mares that came off the
Carter desert out here in Wyoming.
BM:
The Carter desert?
JH:
The Carter desert.
BM:
So is that around Kemmerer?
JH:
It’s east of Kemmerer and a little bit north, kind of over towards Piney area.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
That’s where them horses come from. So the son-in-law, when we came off the summer
range that fall (and I wound up herding his sheep that time out here on the spring and fall
range). So Paul rounded up all but that one horse that I was riding – a big old black horse
(he could stumble over his own shadow) and he rounded up those old sheep camp horses
and he traded them to this guy that had bought a bunch of those little Morgan mares.
[End Tape 1: B; Begin Tape 2: A]
BM:
Tape 2, John Hansen and Side A.
Go ahead with the Morgan thoroughbred story.
JH:
[Laughing] Well, anyway, Paul he traded those old, wore out sheep camp horses. They
were in good shape, they were fat and so they brought a lot of money. They was buying
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�them for fox feed. And so Paul, he just made a trade with them for some of those little
thoroughbred Morgan mares.
BM:
Okay. Hang on – for fox feed, who is raising foxes? In the Valley?
JH:
Yeah. There was (I can’t remember his first name), but he was a stock from down here at
Fish Haven. He used to have foxes. But I think he’d gone out of business by then. But
most of the foxes came from over east of Preston, Idaho.
BM:
Okay. And they’re raising foxes for what particular industry?
JH:
Fur; for the fur industry.
BM:
Fur? So coats and other -- ?
JH:
Yeah, just for their coats, just for their fur. So when the boss seen them little mares, he
really blew up. He cussed that son-in-law up one side and down the other one and he
said, “Nothing but a bunch of junk!” He says, “Ain’t worth nothin’!” He says, “they’re
not even worth having on the ranch! Just load ‘em up and get ‘em out of here!” he says.
And he says, “We’ll go somewhere and find some horses!”
Paul told him, he said, “Well, we can go find you some horses Tom, but you’re going to
pay around $1,000 a piece for them horses if you expect your riders to get anything done
on this ranch.”
“Well what did you sell them others for?”
“Because,” he said, “they had run out from under us too many times. They get right down
on their knees,” he said, “and plow their nose in the dirt. You’re going to kill some of
your men one of these days!”
So they argued and argued and argued and no sir, Tom, he wanted them horses, them
little mares. (What was it I think – there was five of them, five of them.) So the boss, he
was going on like that and I had my eye on one of them and I just thought, “Well, you
know, I’ll betcha I could get that mare for 50 bucks.” So while he was going on, “It ain’t
worth nothin’, it ain’t worth nothin’.” When he stopped, I just, “Tom, I’ll just give you 50
bucks for that little mare right there, if you will sell her to me right now.”
“Get her outta here! You’re on!”
[Laughing]
JH:
I hadn’t even talked to her! We were a little short on cash anyhow!
BH:
Was this Snooks?
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�JH:
Yeah.
NH:
Yeah, this is Snooks.
BH:
This is Snooks that nobody could ride except when Dad came home, she would saddle up
to Dad. I remember her.
JH:
So anyway, I rode her out that winter. There was never a time she ever bucked with me. I
just made good friends with her and once in a while I’d sneak her a little sugar
[laughing], and a little extra oats or something, you know. And we got along just
wonderful. And then when I quit herding sheep and went back to punching cows, that
thing turned into the best cow horse we ever had on this place.
BM:
But you were the only one that could ride her?
JH:
Yeah.
NH:
Yes.
BH:
She ran away with me on her.
BM:
Oh!
BH:
I was coming down with Uncle Stan [he] was bringing the cows down, and I was up there
with him and I begged him to get on her. And he thought, well if he had a hold of her
bridle maybe I could. So he gave in and let me get on top of her, and she got away from
him and ran away with me.
BM:
Oh my! How old were you Bonnie?
BH:
Oh, about nine I think, right around there.
NH:
I think, yeah.
BH:
And we were headed for the highway.
BM:
Oh!
BH:
And there was a fence at the bottom of the pasture there. And I could see that fence
coming – I don’t know what happened, but I fell off of it, right in the middle of a cow
pie!
[Laughing]
JH:
Soft landing! [Laughing] Soft landing!
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�BH:
And Uncle Stan said, “Don’t you tell your mother that I let you get on that horse!”
[Laughing]
JH:
He didn’t like to ride her very good because she got out from under him a time or two.
She’d turn with a cow. I just talked to that little mare and she just picked it up as a
natural, you know. She’d lay that shoulder right into a cow and that cow got ornery and
tried to go around her, why she’d just – and that cow would just over. And the cow would
generally go on her knees, you know. But when that cow got up that little sorrow mare
had her right on the loop of the tail that sticks up – POP! She could take the hair right off,
and that cow would bellar, man! She’d get back in the herd and she’d stay here!
[Laughing]
JH:
But what I’m going to tell you about, you’re not going to believe, I know! That’s the only
cow horse I rode from Goodwin’s. The only cow horse that I ever seen that you could get
a cow in a fence, going down that fence and trying to get by you, and you’d reach over
and grab that cow by the nose and make her back up, you know. She’d get over there in
the fence. When that cow tried to get between her and that fence again, she planted all
fours and run them back, sure as the cow on your right. You just take your rope, once that
brass horn [clapping hands] banged her on the nose and she behaved herself. That cockeyed horse was running backwards almost as fast as she could front ways! [laughing]
The first time she done that with Stan, he wasn’t looking for it (and I’d warned him about
her; I said, “when your tailing cows with her, she will run backwards if that goes to go by
you and she don’t want it to, she’ll plant all fours and run backwards with him and she’ll
leave you sittin’ right there on her nose!”)
[Laughing]
And she did, a time or two!
BM:
So how old, when you picked this mare out and said, “That’s the one I want.” How old
was she when you got her?
JH:
How old was she? Three.
BM:
Okay. And what made you choose her, when you looked at her?
JH:
Just her confirmation, her build, her legs and up here between her ears is where I always
looked. If there’s a bump up there, get rid of them; but if there’s a good roll, a good roll is
a smart horse.
I’m going to check my horses when I go back home! If any of them have a bump, they’re
in trouble!
BM:
[Laughing]
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�JH:
If they’ve got a big bump, they can be ornery son of a guns.
BM:
All be darned.
JH:
Anyway, I’ve ridden some nasty cow horses that would get dried out from under you.
BM:
So you had to replace Snooks when? How long did you have her?
JH:
I had that little mare for, oh gee, I guess 10 years or more.
NH:
A good ten years.
BM:
And you eventually retired her because?
JH:
Yeah, I had to. I had her over on the east side of the lake, rounding up one fall. I was
trying to get them through a fence. I had quite a herd of cows and I was all alone and
trying to move them over into another pasture where the last ten days that I was going to
be over there with them for the season. And they was giving me a bad time, that little
mare she just worked so hard. Finally when I stopped to let them get through the gate,
why as usual, some ornery old heifers broadside the gateway and nothing could go
through. And that’s when my brother come along, about that time, him and a couple of
his buddies. (No, that wasn’t my brother that was Randall.)
NH:
Yeah, that was Randall our oldest son.
JH:
It was late in the afternoon, well quite late because he’d come from college over here and
he brought his girlfriend with him. They all jumped out of the car and run over there
hooting and hollering and got the cows a going. So when they got through the gate I got
off to go shut the gate of course and I looked around – I could always drop the reins and
that mare would stay there when I came back if it was an hour – went over and shut the
gate, come back and she was just a quivering. So that was the last work she ever done for
me. When I put her in the pasture here at the place, and she died here.
BM:
Ahh.
JH:
So.
BM:
Oh, I bet that was a hard loss.
NH:
Oh it was a sad day.
JH:
It was.
NH:
That was a sad, sad day.
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�BM:
So she was about 18-19 – no, how old was she? She worked 10 or more years, so she was
probably about 15.
JH:
Um-hmm. Yeah, she would have been right around 15 I guess when she died.
BM:
Those are probably big hooves to fill.
JH:
No.
BM:
No?
JH:
Nope. That’s another reason why I chose her. It didn’t cost the cock-eye much to shoe
her; she was easy to shoe. I never had a problem putting a shoe on that mare right from
day one. She always wore a double odd shoe. It didn’t take much to put shoes on her and
she could get through brush for the bigger horses, but take half a day. But you had to be a
rider to ride her in tall sagebrush, because she would go over the tallest of it! She’d just –
like that.
BM:
Oh, just jump it.
JH:
Yeah, she’d jump it.
BM:
Holy cow. And you were hanging on!
JH:
I’ll say I was hanging on!
[Laughing]
BM:
So who did you replace her with?
JH:
Randall, our oldest son, he bought a horse from (now I can’t remember his name, over
there, he would live in North Logan) – no, no. He would be in North Logan now, but he
had those American saddle horses.
BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
He had this three year old – a real pretty, sorrow horse, with three white socks and a blaze
face –
BM:
Another mare?
JH:
No. It was a gelding. And he bought that horse and –
NH:
[Inaudible]
JH:
Yeah, Loy Robinson was his name.
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�[Inaudible chattering in the background]
JH:
Anyway, he bought that horse from him and he was just halter-broke. And he brought
him over here and we saddled him up and warmed him up walking him around the corral.
And I got on my horse and just snubbed for him a little out here in the field; got him over
there behind where Randall’s house is now and I just reached over and unsnapped the
halter rope and turned him loose.
[Laughing and chattering]
JH:
Well that horse just stopped, you know. So I just turned around and headed back down to
the corral. And the horse he just (we named him Mac, well I guess I did), and the horse,
he just followed us for a little ways. And then pretty soon that horse hit a running walk
and he never stopped until he got to the barn door. And that’s the way that horse was for
all the time we had him here on the ranch. You could get him up in the morning, jump
him out of the truck over there when you was going to round up or move to another
pasture, to get him out of there (just about the time the sun was coming up and by about
six o’clock), that night you could aim him back to the truck and he would hit that running
walk and that sucker was there until he got to the truck. He just had that much guts to
him. He was just an all around good horse. He was fast, you could rope off of him.
Randall never really rode him a heck of a lot!
NH:
He wasn’t here!
JH:
Well, that’s right, he was. He was in college most of the time.
NH:
College and on a mission, and –
JH:
Yeah, and then he went on a mission, didn’t he? Yeah.
NH:
Yeah. He got one year of college and then he went on his mission.
BM:
But this is a horse that other people could ride, unlike Snooks who -- ?
JH:
Well, I wouldn’t have put a kid on him. I wouldn’t have put somebody on him that, you
know, wasn’t very used to riding for the simple reason if you got him around a cow, you
better be ready to ride because he’s watching. If you’re just riding by a cow, if he figured
that thing was going to turn and go somewhere, he wanted to go right now. You know, a
typical cow horse, cutting horse.
I only rode one other horse that was better than he was for cutting cows and that was
Ross Jackson over here at Randolph one spring (the spring I got out of the Army). He had
this American saddle mare – beautiful thing. Solid black, four white socks and a white
blazed face and she had kind of a light mane and tail. He gave me her to ride in my
stream and he says, “That’s been my personal horse, you take care of her.” And he says,
“She’ll get your work done, but boy you better be ready to ride!” Well, he wasn’t
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�kidding! That horse knew more in a half-book second about what a cow was going to do
than I would know in all the year. First thing we did, went down to the field. That was in
the last part of April, when it was nice and slick down there with slush on the ground. We
gathered up a bunch of cows with little calves and riding around them, got them all
bunched, ready to go up to the corral so we can put them in the corral above the road, so
we could brand the calves tomorrow. Well first thing that happened: here goes a little
calf, gone across the field – bam! That mare had that calf so cock-eyed quick! She caught
that calf and spun and me just still hanging out there! I had to grab hot air!
[Laughing]
I wasn’t looking for it. Well, for one thing it was so slick, you know, I was afraid she was
going to go out from under me. But he had some pretty good shoes on. They used horse
shoes in those days, not these little pressed plates that will go out from under you. And so
they had toe carts and heel caulks for them, and that’s the only thing that saved Dave!
That cock-eyed mare had that calf back to mama right fast. And me hanging for dear life
just trying to be there too! When I learned how to ride her, I knew what she was, you
know. So I was watching her and we got along like two peas in a pod.
We went out that spring and rode over to – well that was on the edge of the Carter desert
where you had about 200 head of cows with unbranded calves that he’d just pulled off of
a feedlot over there somewhere and set them up. And we had to go get them the next day
and trail them clear back through Kemmerer then pert near to Randolph over here in the
Crawford Mountains. And that was the nastiest spring I’ve ever seen. The first day,
everything was peachy; it was nice and warm coming across that alkaline desert. I didn’t
know where we was going, and the other rider that was with me – and to top it all off, to
make it even nastier, we had 100 head of yearlings in there and they wanted to go home.
And the cows was taking it pretty easy and it was hot. So he was riding the point and I
was back on bringing up the tail end. And you couldn’t see your nose in front of your
face for the alkaline dust flying. The next day the boss went and borrowed a sheep camp
from a sheep man over there to put behind his truck to follow us through and then he had
to take all of them mountain roads around to meet us here and there. In the middle of that
night, the wind come up and it got cold! Man, it did get cold! And the whole herd got up
and monkeying around so we had to get up and keep them together. And by about four
o’clock that morning, here come the sleet. And man!
I had a real good pair of bull hide chaps and I had it treated – what the old Mexican sheep
herders told me to treat them new chaps with. They were roughouts. “Don’t put oil on
them, don’t put oil on them – make too cold; when come time for cold weather, no bed,
no bed. You get fur hung up under horse belly and get throwed and hurt.” Well what are
you going to treat it with? “Go find yourself a big pine tree, with lots of pine gum. Take
big ball of pine gum,” then he says, “you go put that in a pot and then get some minks
foot oil and you put with pine gum; heat it good and mix it up real good. Go buy yourself
a new wash rag if you have to and use that wash rag to put that on your chaps. Lay them
out there on something flat and work that in.” He says, “It’d take you three or four days.”
And I said, “Well, pine gum, that will make those chaps so stiff I can’t get into them at
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�all!” “No rain go through, no rain go through and it will do cold, it will do cold,” he says.
“You fix them chaps like I tell you and you be mighty glad you did.”
Well that was one time I was mighty glad I did. The chaps, they stayed just right – they
were fairly stiff you know -- just to hold their shape. And I could sit on a horse and I was
covered down to my in steps on my boots and the water run off them and never got
anywhere near damp inside at all. When we road for four days and four nights on that
trail in the most miserable, cold storm you ever wanted; calves going in every direction
on the tail end and me trying to hold them. And every time Casey come back to try to
help me, the yearlings would take off and run. So we’d have to bunch the works together
again and lose time a doing it.
BM:
And how many are you moving at this time?
JH:
We had, I think there was 215 head of cows with new calves. Well the calves was
probably about like a month old calf. And then there was 100 head of those miserable,
lousy yearling heifers.
[Indistinguishable]
[Laughing]
JH:
We battled and fought that through and out in that country, in that desert, there is washes
to beat the band; and I wish I could remember the name of them. Because when you
picked up some of these books and read them – he’ll tell you about some of them places
you’ve been.
There was two washes: one was a big, deep, wide wash and another one was smaller.
And I read his books where it’s mentioned both of those washes right out here in
Wyoming, by name. When we’d cross those things with that herd, that was all alkali
country and just as slick as it could be.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
And you’d get down in those cock-eyed things and you’d have a time of getting out.
Then when I’d come along on the tail end, invariably I’d have about 30 to 40 head of
them cock-eyed little calves on the tail-end, and ma up there bellering on the other side,
and them calves trying to run back. And that mare just worked herself silly to keep them
calves from getting away. If you ever wanted to see a smart animal – brother, there’s a
smart animal: a horse.
Well, we finally got through those washes and up the other side and finally, oh I guess
about 4 o’clock in the afternoon why, it quit sleeting. It kind of shot off, you know, and
then oh man, did it cold. And then Keith come riding back to me and he said, “We
haven’t got very much farther to go John,” he says, “we only got about ten miles so we’re
going to be coming up on Old Lady Wheeler’s ranch. Now that’s a big ranch, they’ve got
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�great big cattle corrals in front of that big, old house. The house, it’s a two-story house,
it’s got a veranda clear around the top story and around the bottom.” And he says, “When
we get there,” he says, “we gotta be careful.”
[Remembering] Zeeler! Zeeler. Old Lady Zeeler! That was her name! [Laughing] That’s
what he called her anyhow! Old Lady Zeeler. “Now,” he says, “you could tell her for a
mile off, you can see her for a mile off; she sat big. And she’ll have a great, big, old,
black coat on from the top of her head, right down dragging on the ground.” And he said,
“If she comes out here,” he says, “you better come help me stop them. Because,” he says,
“I don’t think the boss is going to get over there in time to go talk to her. She’ll take a
shot at you!” Oh my Lord! I said, “Well where is Frank?” And he said, “He’s going
around there right now, he ought to be around there pretty quick now.” He says, “He’ll be
there by the time we get there, I’m sure. Let’s just hope that he gets to talk to her and get
permission to get these cock-eyed cows in that corral tonight so we don’t have to night
ride.”
Well, we kept a going and we kept a going, and I didn’t think we was ever going to get
there. I could see that one black spot, see that big, old ranch house sitting over there. And
there was a little grove of willows in a little creek just between us and that ranch house
and the willows weren’t very tall, but I could see the top of that house and there was that
black spot. And I watched that black spot get bigger and bigger [laughing]. And I just
could see old Keith – now he was holding the leaders up all he could, but he just about
had them all. One time we got almost over there and then she stood up on the porch and
you know what she had in her hand? A double-barrel shotgun. She pulled out from under
that big, old, black coat and she aimed that right -- , “Let’s pull it up, let’s pull it up.”
And boy, everything come to a halt. And Keith, he was sitting on his horse and
wondering whether he was going to get shot or not, and so was I! And here come the boss
– he finally made it there! Drove up into the yard, and then she knew who he was. So he
talked to her and asked her, he said, “We’ve just had an awful time in this storm. I
wonder if we could put these cows in corral tonight?” He says, “These guys, they’s give
out, so’s their horses. They’re wet and cold. If we could just put them cows in the corral
tonight,” he says, “we’ll be out of here at daylight in the morning.” “Well…I recon you
can,” she says, “if you know how to open that gate. Is there any one of the three of you
that knows how to open the gate?” Oh and Frank says, “You bet! I’ll get it open.”
[Laughing]
That old corral was made out of poles – I guess it had been there forever, you know. And
that gate was, oh I guess almost 20 feet wide! A pole gate. Old Frank, you’d just about
have to have a saddle horse and lariat rope and pull that gate around to get in, you know.
And old Frank, he just worked on that until he was almost black in the face and I hollered
out, “For Lord’s sake! Go over and help him get that gate open! These calves are going to
get away from me!” So he did; he went over. He just dropped the rope on the end of the
gate and helped Frank pull that gate open. And then we got them in and put them in that
corral that night. You know what happened? He pulled that cheap cap right down there in
front of that old girl’s –
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�[End Tape 2: A; begin Tape 2: B]
BM:
Side 2. And we’re continuing with the Zeeler Ranch story.
BH:
The sheep wagon?
JH:
Those two guys, they just jumped in that truck and they said, “We’ll see you in the
morning John.” And left me there.
BH:
With Lady Zeeler?
JH:
Yeah! So I had to get old Keith’s saddle horse and then she was still standing up there
with that shotgun tucked under her arm, you know, watching the whole thing.
BH:
How old were you, Dad?
JH:
I don’t know, how old was I?
BH:
Were you married?
JH:
No! That was before we got married. Just about – we got married on the 16th day of May
of –
NH:
I think that was – around the last part of April –
JH:
It was, it was.
BM:
This is after you got home from the war?
JH:
Oh yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
That was the only job I could find. You couldn’t even buy a job when I got home. And
me and my buddy, we had quite a stinker pulled on us out there. But that’s not the story!
Anyway –
BM:
So wait, she’s got the shotgun, she still has it in hand and you’re alone on the ranch with
her.
JH:
Yeah, that’s right. So I looked up at her and I went over and got that horse. She had a
heck of a nice barn that hadn’t caved in yet. She had all kinds of sheds you know, all her
sheds were all there, her colt sheds but they’d all caved in. And I didn’t know whether I’d
dare go put the horses in the barn or not. Finally she said, “Well, are you going to go get
the horse and put him up or just stand there?” “Yes ma’am.” [Laughing] So I went and
Keith’s horse and took him over to the barn and she says, “I guess you can tell a barn
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�from a lean-to?” “Yes ma’am.” “Now put them in there, make sure you give them some
hay. There’s some hay in there. Them horses have worked all day and they look like it.”
Anyway, I took care of the horses and come back over the camp and she said, “You got
any dry wood at that camp?” I said, “I hope so.” And she said, “Enough to keep you
warm tonight?” “Well, I think so.” “Alright,” she says, “alright, I guess you better get at
it.” And she turned around and went in the house. And I went over and climbed in the
tent and built a fire and got myself some supper and climbed in bed and had one hell of a
bad sleep all night, worried about her and that double-barreled shotgun.
[Laughing]
And those two jerks never got back over there until 7 o’clock the next morning and we
had a 20 mile trail to go yet! Thank heaven it had quit storming.
BM:
But the cow, you were able to put in a fenced enclosure so you don’t have to worry about
them?
JH:
Yep, didn’t have to worry about them. Oh boy, I’ll tell you what! That was a life saver
for me. When those guys got there and then we had that 20 mile trail to go and that was
back toward that highway that comes from Evanston over to Kemmerer.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
Not in the middle of it, we would come up from the Zeeler Ranch and hit that highway.
And then once we hit the highway, we had about 10 miles to go towards Kemmerer. And
then there was a big cattle outfit just west of the highway there, and that’s where we went
with them. And we took them up there and that man was a good friend of Frank’s, so he
let us put in to pasture there for the rest of the day. And then he said, “You guys get out
of here and go home. I’ll have my riders bring them out of the pasture,” he says, “if they
need to come out. But I think they’re alright right there until tomorrow morning. Now
Frank,” he says, “where is your branding irons and your tools and stuff?” Frank said,
“Right here in the truck.” He said, “Well leave them, my boys ain’t got a thing to do
tomorrow and we can take care of them cows tomorrow.” Then he said, “You guys can
come back and help us push them up on the range,” he said, “the day after tomorrow and
settle them down and distribute them.”
BM:
So they brand them and then they’re going to disperse them up here on the Cache?
JH:
No. Over in the Crawford mountains.
BM:
Oh, Crawfords.
JH:
Uh-huh. So that’s what we did. And the next day, why we was back over there. No! Next
day they branded them and then it was the day after that we went over. And he had, oh,
he had eight cowboys on his ranch. He had a big old ranch there – he had eight cowboys,
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�and then there was just me and Keith and Frank joined them. We put the whole mass –
I’ll bet we, well we had over 2,000 head of cattle.
BM:
Oh!
JH:
In that herd. And we pushed them up on that summer range of theirs over in the
Crawfords. But then we had to pair up a lot of them to get different bunches. Then we
just took them out and put them in different places over in there, in different pastures.
Took all day.
BM:
And so you moved them and then you got them up and then had a day and then you
moved them up into the Crawford Mountains. And then did his cowboys pretty much stay
with them and work with them for the summer?
JH:
Well, a lot of the fellows over here in Randolph and Woodruff run cattle up in there and
they all work together. So come roundup time, they all rounded at the same time. And I
guess, according to that young son of ours (our youngest son, Mill), I guess come roundup time they had gala outfit going up there: work all day, then drink all night and play
cards.
[Laughing]
NH:
They still do!
JH:
Yeah, they still do. Our son-in-law runs cattle out there, and he’s a bishop – I don’t think
he joined in with the boozing though. I don’t think he ever did much of that anyway!
BM:
Now was that the same time period – because you talked about getting the animals off the
forest up here by September 10th. So were the Crawfords about the same time?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm, ordinarily.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
There was a reason for that, it was a good one. Because you know, ordinarily your deer
hunt came along in October, about the middle of October. And so to bring them off of
there, by that time your feed is pretty well gone anyway. I’ve seen my dad come off the
forest ten days quicker than that, just to make sure that he wasn’t going to have to go
back over something they’d been over.
They would come off about that time to get out of the way, so they would have time to go
back up and ride for strays. He always got a good two weeks up here to get – and then
you’d never get them all out. The snow has to drive them out. That was one of the
reasons why we had to come off on the tenth day of September. Because they’d figured
you’d had enough time to graze those animals, then you had time to go back up and make
sure and ride for strays, because you’re always short.
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�BM:
Now you mentioned going in that the foresters were there checking your numbers for
your permit.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Were they also there when you came out?
JH:
There were times I ever saw when we came off that they counted us off.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
They never did count us off, no. I don’t know what they did with the other guys, the other
herds of sheep; it was the same way with the cattle. No, they would count cattle, but
ordinarily when I rode for this old fellow out here (I managed his ranch for a while) and
he runs cows up here above the ridge. The forest ranger would come and tell you which
gate to put them in on the forest reserve line fence.
BM:
Now which ridge is this that you’re talking about?
JH:
This is Long Ridge.
BM:
Long Ridge, okay.
JH:
Uh-huh; right above the Sweetwater Park.
BM:
Now, so the forester was there to direct you where they should go – which was the best
pasture at that time?
JH:
They gave you a pasture to put them in. And that pasture was the one that you had for the
summer. It was up to you to ride that pasture and make sure that your stock was there.
You all worked together – you always had cattle get out and go on another guy’s pasture
– so you worked together. And you’d go over and you’d pick up their strays in your
pasture and take it back to them, and they’d bring theirs over to you. And they had a
regular rider for the summer and he kind of watched out for that and helped you out, and
then he did all the salting – they’d put all the salt out.
BM:
And how often was the salt put out?
JH:
Just whatever was needed. Now, that’s another thing that these people need to know. It’s
crucial to a cattle operation – it’s not so bad for sheep because you carry your salt with
you and put it in boxes for a night, you know. And then you’re not leaving a tromped
down place. Well same way with those salt areas for cattle. That rider would go distribute
so many blocks out in one pasture, because quite often he was always moving from one
pasture to a new pasture. So he’d go and put that salt out – so many blocks that he figured
that those cows was going to take for so many days. Then when it comes time to change
that pasture, he’d go check on those salt grounds and if there was any salt left, he moved
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�it. And moved it ahead to where he was going. And if you had a real good rider, why you
know, you didn’t have to worry about it. You knew your cows had the salt in front of
them that was needed, and there wasn’t excess stuff to bring excess cattle in at one time.
BM:
Now he’s carrying this on a pack horse?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And these are blocks? Like 50 pound blocks?
JH:
Um-hmm, yep. Regular, 50 pound block of salt.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And if a certain cattle man wanted his cattle to have access to iodized block, he got the
iodized block, and that particular cattleman furnished the block.
BM:
Oh, okay. So would the cattleman drop off the blocks and then the cowboy would come
and pick them up and take them?
JH:
Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. He’d distribute that right up here – I’m talking about, have you
ever been up Temple Fork?
BM:
Yes.
JH:
Okay. Right up on the flat, right up on the flat they had a pretty good corral back there;
made of poles tight enough so the livestock couldn’t get in, not even the elk or the deer.
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
The association would deliver the salt and whatever else was needed, to that point. And
then that summer that range rider would go there to pick up what he needed.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And if he had to go like south of there, you get over to (what’s it called?), Mud Lake? Or
towards the Hardware Ranch?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Why, he’d have to bring his Jeep up (most generally they had the same rider there for
years), knew what he was doing, he had a Jeep; he’d go load up the salt that he wanted to
put on those other salt grounds and leave it there and then he’d come and get his horse
and his pack horse and go distribute from there. Because it was too far to carry that salt
on a horse’s back. Salts mean to blocks of salt to carry. And I’ve seen it wear a hole right
in a horse’s back.
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�BM:
Ooh.
JH:
So that’s the way they did things up there and it worked out good. This guy I worked
with – it was KB Hansen that bought this old ranch out here. And I worked for him for
four years. And he ran cattle down – and this is where I got to know a lot of the Cache
Valley boys over there. I rode with them for three seasons up in there; all up in Temple
Fork area and all through Tony Grove and all that area. Better bunch of guys I’ve never
worked with.
BM:
So when you were up in those areas, what other kind of people did you see up in Logan
Canyon and Temple Fork and Tony Grove?
JH:
At that time, I rarely saw anybody. Of course I wasn’t up there all of the time. I did go up
and help that rider occasionally when he’d need some help; I’d throw my horse in the
truck and go up and help him. If he had something that had got away and he needs some
help, why I’d go up and help him and generally there would be a rider or two coming
from Logan up.
BM:
A rider that was working cattle or sheep?
JH:
Yeah. One was salt man, one was a cattle owner. And we would get together and we
would go get them put back together again for him. They were just a nice bunch of guys
to work with. There was only one or two. One of those guys, you probably remember.
Had all that trouble there west of Logan out there by the ball goal where that crossed the
slough and got hit and killed that woman?
BM:
Yes! That was just in the last few years.
JH:
Yeah, about what? Two, three years ago?
BM:
Right, right.
JH:
I rolled with him all one fall – we just happened to get on the same crew at round-up
time. And I’d never met a nicer guy than him! My gosh, you know! And when I read
what was going on, what happened to him in the paper, I couldn’t believe it. And I got to
thinking (because I didn’t know him very much) about that big, wide ball pit I guess you
could say down that side of that road. And I’d see them cattle over in there – knew where
they was – I even hauled a load of these cattle down at round-up time I guess it was last
fall that I was up there and rode with them. He had one load too many that he could load
and they would have had to stay there in the corral up there all night and half the next
day. So I told him, I said, “Well, I’ve only got five head up here.” And, I said “Criminy I
can load them myself when I come back. I’ll just throw them in the truck and follow you
down there and we’ll have them down there.” Well, you’d have thought I’d done him the
biggest favor in the world! I don’t know that I did. I just came back and loaded our two or
three in the truck, it was a simple matter. We had a real good corral there. Of course I was
all alone, and then I had to lock up everything before I left! [Laughing]
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�BM:
Where was this corral again?
JH:
What is it they call it? It’s down towards the bottom of Tony there. You know where the
new highway ended off?
BM:
Um-hmm.
JH:
Okay. Then you go down the road there about, oh what? About three quarters of a mile.
So on the right-hand side of the road, and I want to call it Bunchgrass, but the Bunchgrass
pasture is back up toward the north –
BM:
So you’re not in Franklin Basin are you?
JH:
Nope, not quite. You know where Red Banks picnic ground is?
BM:
Oh sure! Sure.
JH:
Okay, well Bunchgrass is just south of that picnic ground, back up in the timber there.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
They’re quite a ways up there. It goes clear back up there almost to Tony Lake.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
That Bunchgrass, sometimes you could hardly ride a horse through the cock-eyed stuff.
Anyway, that’s where their corral was at. And I guess I haven’t seen it for years and
years and years, but they still use it I know in the fall of the year.
BM:
Can I ask you a question about predators? When you were working with cattle and if
there was a problem with predators and what they might have been? And did anybody
help you with predator issues?
JH:
Not with cattle. We didn’t have any predator problems. In earlier years, before Dad got
into range cows, when there was so many coyotes the cattlemen over there – where the
highways hits just before you get to Bear River there’s Sage Creek Junction.
BM:
Yes.
JH:
Well okay. Some of those cattlemen there was having as much trouble with the coyotes
and their newborn calves as we was having with the coyotes up there and the sheep. Oh
man, there was coyotes anywhere you wanted to look. And the government, they had
trappers out. There was two old men here that trapped coyotes for years; I can remember
them both. They trapped coyotes, they’d shoot them, whatever it took.
BM:
Um-hmm. Did they do something with the skins?
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�JH:
Yeah, yeah. They’d skin them out and they sold those coyote pelts – this was back pretty
much in the days of the Depression when (just to give you an example), my mother used
to give us kids one egg a piece when we went to school in the morning, once in a while.
And the Hodge’s Cache Store was right across the road from where the church office still
is. Well, she’d give us an egg a piece and we’d go in there and we could get a nickel’s
worth of candy.
BM:
[Laughing] And trade for the egg?
JH:
Yeah, in place of the egg. So now, there’s what you were faced with here. Her [wife] and
I, we lived through that. This is something else that these same people that you’re talking
about, don’t know the first thing about. And you know, when I stop and think about it
now, the people here worked together. All of them are farmers and they all had gardens.
All the women, right down to some of the smallest little girls you’ve ever seen that
couldn’t twist a lid on a bottle, knew how to bottle deer meat, or anything else. And they
all worked, you know. I got one of them out here – that’s how she learned to bottle. She
lived through it same time I did. If Mom and Dad didn’t teach that to them kids, you
know (and I know they did). If those kids nowadays, that were kids then don’t teach that
to their kids, they ought to have a hold of your head. Because at least you can live.
We’ve got a real bad situation on our hands here. And you know and it’s going to get
worse. Just as a little example, buying my groceries down here to Montpelier and in three
weeks what I used to buy down there, the same articles that cost me $50 bucks, right on
the scratch, yesterday cost me $71.63. That’s how much they jumped down there. Well,
that’s where we’re going and you know, you talk about these people that need to know
how to take care of your ranges and boy, I couldn’t agree with you more! And thank
heaven we’ve got people like you who are willing to teach them. You know, if we were
taught more about how we went through that in those days – my dad was one of the
handiest men you ever saw (I know I’m bragging about him).
BM:
He was a good person though.
JH:
He could do just about anything. He built this home for us. He was a good carpenter; he
was a good blacksmith shop; he could forge weld. He could build horseshoes from
scratch – just whatever you wanted. He taught me and my brother everything that he
could teach us.
BM:
And you’re probably very proud of what he could do too.
JH:
I’ll say. And he was awful particular about his work. That’s where we’re at today. We
need more people to pass that lesson on to their children and their grandchildren. Now
I’ve got granddaughters – two of the best articles I ever wanted to have canned: corn is
one and deer meat the other. My mother used to cut the corn off the cob and I used to
help her. And I right behind my house here that my grandmother used to use for the same
purpose was a summer kitchen, with a big, old wood stove in it, you know.
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�BM:
Um-hmm, sure.
JH:
And she did all of her canning out there. And Mother would take the sheets off of her bed
and put on the top of that roof (it had a little gradual slope to it). And we cut the kernels
of corn off of them cobs of corn and by the bucketful she would take it up there and
spread it out. And then I had the job –
BM:
So she would dry it in the sun?
JH:
Yeah. Sun dried. And then I had the job of keeping the magpies off!
[Laughing]
JH:
Oh man!
BH:
How did you do that?
JH:
Well, we had to pick of rocks out of the corn a time or two – [laughing] I used a flipper
on them. I was a dead shot with a flipper, I’ll have to admit! [Laughing] She sun-dried
that corn and then she put that corn in a bottle, screw the lid on tight and then come deer
hunting time, why dad would always get a deer. And she took that meat and cut it up in
little squares (about so square) –
BM:
Uh-huh.
JH:
And then she bottled. Well, you never had a better combination of something wonderful
to eat – she took that corn and made gravy out of it and then she mixed that deer meat
with it. And she would pull that deer meat apart with a fork. And oh, boy! You could just
bust!
BM:
Oh, that sounds excellent.
JH:
It was really good you know. Those people in those days knew how to live.
BM:
They did; very talented.
JH:
You know what we got today – I know this is going to be a little bit off of what you were
wanting, but I have to bring this to your attention. You know, I had a lady in here the
other day; she’d bring us quilts for Noreen to hem. A real nice gal – she’s a little bit older
than I am. I am coming 85 and I think Marie would be probably like about 87.
(Whispering: One of the most staunchest democrats you’ve ever seen in your life.) And
she sat here talking to Noreen. And she got to talking about what was going on here with
President Obama. And I was just sitting here in the chair watching her. And finally I said
to her, I said, “Well,” (she was talking about the fighting between the democrats and the
republicans). I said, “Well you know Marie the best cock-eyed” [tape ends]
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�[End Tape 2: B; begin Tape 3: A]
BM:
Three, side one.
Alright finish with the democrat.
JH:
She said, “What did you say?” I said, “Marie, the best thing that ever happened to this
nation was World War II.” [She said] “I can’t understand how you can think that! Look at
all the people and our boys from home that was killed and mangled in that war.” And I
said, “Marie,” I said, “I was right with them.” “Well how do you figure that?” And I said,
“You tell me this, Mrs. Democrat,” [laughing] I said, “When did you ever see the
democrats and the republicans get along better than they did then?”
NH:
Oh, you said the wrong thing to him there!
[Laughing]
JH:
And she thought and she thought and then she looked at me and she was waiting for me, I
guess to say some more. I told her, I said, “You’ve never seen politics go out the window
so fast in all your life. You’re going to have to admit it. Democrats worked with
republicans and republicans worked with democrats because they didn’t have no choice
in the matter! We was broke, just like we are now, and a whole cock-eyed world to fight
this war in and how are you going to do it? Everybody pulled together. Everybody,
because it was death staring them right in the face.”
So I said, “And I hate to think that’s what’s going to happen here, but I’m just scared to
death if they bring them kids out over there now those murderers are going to follow
them right to our shores and we’re going to be worse off than we ever was!” That’s
what’s scaring me. “And one of the biggest problems there,” I said, “now we have got a
lot of people at the head of our government” (just like these young people that you was
talking about), “that think they know, but they haven’t got the experience to handle. So
the rest of us are going to have to get behind them and do something about it.”
BM:
Um-hmm. And they haven’t been destitute; they haven’t been challenged in that way.
JH:
Yeah.
NH:
We’re all going to have to get together and find a boat of some kind and put Obama on it
and send it across the ocean –
[Laughing]
JH:
And a few more people to go with him!
[Laughing]
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�BM:
Okay. Let’s stop there for – it smells like lunch to me.
[Stop and start recording]
BM:
Okay we are continuing with our tape after lunch, here with John Hansen in Garden City.
And we’re going to continue with some of his earliest memories of Logan Canyon. So,
John.
JH:
I guess the earliest that I can ever remember of Logan Canyon was a mighty long time
ago. I think I was probably right around six or seven years old. But the earliest thing I can
remember about Logan Canyon, down the canyon very well, would have been right down
at the bottom of the canyon where you come around that first sharp curve where the city
water line used to come down and cross the road there.
BM:
So this is on the Logan side?
JH:
Yeah, uh-huh. They had just started to widen the road out and they had a steam shovel
there working (and some other equipment). And I’ve been trying to remember the name
of that company. They were a Logan company that was there. It wasn’t Johnsons, but it
was another company from Logan. We’d been to Logan, been downtown and was
coming home and we come around that curve and there was that steam shovel working
there. And he was loading a truck. So we had to stop and wait for him to finish loading
that truck so we could get by him.
At that time, most of the rest of the road clear through the whole canyon was nothing
much more than a wagon track, it was so narrow. Most places you had to pull over and
stop and let the other guy go by you. And on the curves, the same way: you’d go around
those curves awfully slow. I can remember that road up through there so well, and
especially that particular time because that was the first time in my life I’d ever seen a
steam shovel. I’d heard about them, you know, going to school and all that.
BM:
Wait a minute, before you go on. The road, the texture of the road at this time was dirt?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And one lane?
JH:
Well, you could call it about a lane and a half [laughing]. And it was all the way through
right down to Garden City. So many places you just have to stop and move over and let
the other guy go by you, or some places or a lot of places of course, why you could pass
each other but you had to be awful cheerful about it.
BM:
How did you get through in the winter time? Wasn’t it muddy?
JH:
It was closed. That road was closed all winter.
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�BM:
Oh, okay.
JH:
They never started keeping that road open (now don’t quote me on this, because I can’t
remember for sure), but when they first started keeping that open I think it was right
around 1938 when they first started to get the equipment to keep it open. For one thing,
they needed those snow throwers real bad because the canyon would close so quick. They
were in short demand and so that kind of hampered the opening of the road, you know, to
keep it open. The first workers from Garden City that worked for the State of Utah on this
side, kept that road open through the winter from Garden City, down to the Temple Fork
(let’s see, it would’ve been down below Temple Fork by quite a little bit); right down
where the new wide highway goes on down the – that’s where the guys from this side had
to keep it open. Because the machinery on the other side – from there on down into
Logan – had all of Logan and Logan area to do. The two men in Garden City was Ross
Hodges and (oh, what the heck was his name?) and Lamont Schofield. They were the two
first men to go to work for the State to keep that road going through the winter. And they
would work all day until late at night and then they would hope that they could get back
up to the road shed to get it open in the mornings.
BM:
So they stayed in the road shed at night?
JH:
No, they came home.
BM:
Oh, they did?
JH:
Um-hmm, yeah they came home. And then they found out that wasn’t going to work very
good. So then they had to put on a second crew from Logan that came up. And then
they’d change shifts. They had people working that road the clock around. They had
people getting hung up in the drifts before these guys could get back the next morning.
And a time or two they couldn’t even get in, they had to walk.
BM:
Where did they walk to?
JH:
Well, they could generally get up to where the overlook area is. They could get that far in
that area with their cars, and then they had to walk from there, clear down to the road
shed. In all that deep snow, that took a lot of time. So they put on two shifts. And that’s
the way it’s been ever since and I think they have done an immaculate job on it all the
time. I don’t know of anybody that’s ever had a lot of problems. You’re going to get
snow blowing across that road and some of those cuts in no matter what you do. So I’m
sure those fellows have had both hands busy to keep that road open, you know. I think
that they did a good job. Of course they’ve had several different crews since that time.
But to get back down to the canyon itself, why I can remember coming up through there
in a car when I was of a young age, you know. Going through to Logan and back, or
wherever. Especially after a rainstorm or in the fall of the year, the mud (because there
was no surface on it, just a gravel road), you could get stuck pretty easy. But I can
remember doing that.
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�And in much later years, why I didn’t have all that much to do down in the canyon itself
for a long time, until after we was married I guess. Our next door neighbor over here and
I, we just love to fish. And we’d put our families together on a Saturday night or a
Saturday morning and take our eats and stuff and go over there just above the Red Banks.
You know where they built that new house crossed, on the west side of the highway?
BM:
Right.
JH:
Well there was a good little campground there and we had fixed up a place, dug a fire pit
and rocked it all up right nice, and Noreen and our good neighbor over there, those two
women would get together and Dad still had a couple of his Dutch ovens left. And I’d go
get them and we’d go up there to fish. And we would fish right from, well from above
there, quite a ways above there; almost up to the confluence of the Beaver and the Logan
rivers. And we’d fish clear down below the Red Banks. And then we’d go back up there
and then ordinarily we’d have all the fish we was entitled to. And then sometimes when
things got crowded there, why, we went down there one time (he and I just went the two
of us), that was on Saturday; I’d see that little creek coming in down there just above the
Red Bank (which was White Pine and I think you mentioned that).
BM:
Um-hmm, um-hmm.
JH:
And I was standing there where that was flowing in to the river and all of a sudden I
could see some pretty nice fish going up. About like that, just real nice pan size. And I
got to wondering how far up there those little suckers would go. So I told Dave about it –
he was on the other side of the creek. So he came across and we started up there (and this
would have been about four o’clock in the afternoon I guess, when we started up White
Pine); we was getting more fish than we had any right to have at all, so we was just
throwing them back. And we got to wondering just how far up there it did go. Well we
didn’t know it went all the way up to White Pine Lake. So by the time we got up there it
was getting pretty close to dark and going up across that little sagebrush flat – just below
– why, that channel was so deep. I guess it would have been about waist deep on me if I
would have fell in it. And there was them cutthroats about like – you could dangle
anything you wanted to put right down on their nose and they would just not pay any
attention to that at all. I don’t think we caught one fish up there.
[Laughing]
The next time we went up, we went all the way up and the same thing happened, right at
the same place. I don’t know where all them fish was getting all their feed from, but boy
there was big, fat ones and you couldn’t get them to bite! No sir. So I tried the treble
hook just to see if I could get one. And I finally did get one. And boy, it was a nice fish
and just as fat as he could be. And that’s the only fish we ever got out of there!
BM:
The only fish, oh! And that was a cutthroat trout?
JH:
That was a cutthroat trout, yep.
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�BM:
Okay. That’s a very special population up there.
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm.
BM:
Wow, those are beautiful fish.
JH:
But talk about beautiful country, boy we’ve got it in this state. Anywhere you want to go.
And it just seems so nice to be able to get in a place like that, you know and enjoy
yourself.
BM:
And so close to your home.
JH:
Yeah, right. Close to home. And then we got acquainted with quite a few of the boys that
came from Logan to fish up there – from just anywhere in Cache Valley. A whole lot of
the fishermen that we saw were Japanese people. Just a whole lot of them.
BM:
Hmm. Why was that?
JH:
Well, that fish and rice are the major food stuff that the Japanese people over there eat.
Fish and rice. I guess you could smell a Japanese soldier a good 20 feet away from you.
You could smell him. And I guess maybe that a lot of bearing on the case. Now rice in
the Philippines is one of their major crops. And they harvest that rice – they thresh it, just
like we did wheat here, same old thresher. And the Japanese they would take that away
from those people. They grow that and they would wait for that rice to ripen to the point
where it was ready to thresh. They even stacked it in round stacks like we used to do
here. And pull those old separators up the side of them. Gosh they had those big, old rice
patties just covered with them. And the Philippine people got very little of it.
Now there’s one thing I would like to tell you about and I don’t know whether you’d like
to include it in this.
BM:
Let’s look where we are here. Good to go.
JH:
What I saw over there –
BM:
Over there, you mean in your World War II –
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
What I saw over there, it would break your heart. Did us. I got shot up a little bit and I
was sent back to a hospital. The other major Philippine island is Lety. Our people had
already cleared Lety Island.
BM:
Now how do you spell that?
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�JH:
L-E-T-Y (I think that’s it). I think it’s L-E-T-Y.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
And they had set up a real big area base hospital there. Well that’s where I wound up;
they flew me clear down there – me and a plane load of other guys. We’re right on the
south side of that – now this hospital is sitting right down on the beach. And there’s a big,
high chain-linked fence. I bet that thing was a good 20 feet high. When we came in there
in those ambulances and we got out, why that chain-link fence was about 50 feet away
from the military hospital. And I’m bringing this to your attention so you can get an idea.
Now there were MPs walking up and down that fence. And I was wondering, and I seen
these signs and wanted to get out of the ambulance. I was close enough I could read one
of those signs and it says, “Do not feed the prisoners. Do not feed the prisoners.” In big,
bold, black letters. You couldn’t miss it. I went, “Prisoners? I didn’t know they would
have a prison down here.”
Now at that same time our boys had come into Manila. And what had happened, they had
got into that big Japanese prison camp and they had freed all those people that are inside
there. And 99% of them were women and children. And that was inside of that
compound. And looking at what was over there would break your heart.
That’s one thing I need to tell you is that the old American soldier has got a heart bigger
than a lard bucket. And if anything is going to get to him it will be what is happening,
especially to little children. There’s nothing but a bunch of skeletons walking around over
there. You see every bone in their body. And had we fed them, had we gave them so
much as chewing gum, it would have killed them on the spot. Because they had not been
there, but just a matter of hours at that particular time (is the way they explained it to us).
They made sure they we wasn’t going to be giving them anything because up in our battle
zone when we’d run across them little kids, you know, we used to get those tropical
candy Hershey bars (about that long and about so wide) and them little kids up there, they
would come around and just, “Chocoletto-zho, chocoletto-zho.” And they were in our crations. So we’d give them a candy bar once in a while, you know.
So that’s what I saw down there. I was down there for (what was it?), nearly three weeks
before I could get this leg back under me.
BM:
Which leg was injured?
JH:
This one.
BM:
Okay, your left leg.
JH:
Uh-huh. Bullet went right down here and come out down here. My buddy stepped up
behind me and took the sole off his boot, went through my leg and clipped the under sole
off of his boot – he stepped that close to me.
Wow.
BM:
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�JH:
Then that was the only place in all my three years that I ever saw the LDS Church
advertised.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
That would be quite a little story, so you probably wouldn’t want to hear that. I get to
church, but I had to wait a [inaudible] to do it.
[Laughing]
JH:
And I’d only been there for four days, something like that I guess, when that happened.
BM:
Wow. I can’t imagine coming from a place like here and being raised on a farm, and your
family around you and the kinds of things you saw here – even though it was during the
Depression – and then having that kind of experience.
JH:
It was horrible. It was one of the most horrible things. But that was only half of it. I saw
some of the worst of it, right up there in the Nagoya, Japan.
BM:
Mm-hmm.
JH:
After we had gotten settled, we were using Japanese quarters and everything, and
kitchens – their buildings. And so you’d go to chow and go through the chow line with
your mess gear, and you’d pick up your chow and go sit down to a table. And when you
got through they had eight open-top barrels with planes under them outside. Well there
was four of them that you scraped your mess gear out in those barrels, and then on the
end where the boiling water was and everything, there’s where you washed your mess
gear and then took them back to your quarters and hung them up to dry.
Well, we got there (it was just, I guess somewhere around the fifth of September when
we pulled in there), so it was pretty good weather. Well the first time we ate and came out
there to scrape our gear out and wash them, all four of those open-top barrels had little
Japanese kids standing there going through what used to be pig swill. Their clothes hung
on them like there was just nothing but a pole inside. No shoes on their feet and nothing
on their head. And then here would come the adults and run a competition and they were
fighting over the contents of the barrels, what we would scrape off in there. Enough to
turn your stomach, those poor little kids.
Well, we hadn’t been there very long, the next thing you knew the mess sergeant was
complaining he was having to go through too much food, too many groceries. So the
company commander, he decided he better find out what was going on, so he went into
the mess hall, collected all the KPs and the table waiters and the cooks and he really had
a chat with them. Well, they were putting it out where they were supposed to, and putting
on the mess gear as we would come through the line. Well, yeah, but those guys are
loading up their mess gear more than they ever did before. We never seen them load it up
like that in our lives. And those little kids would come over you know, with just about
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�any kind of a plate or something that they could find. And so we would go along and we
would just scrape off half of what we had. When the Army found that out, boy I’ll tell
you, they brought that to a halt in a hurry! So then they put up a big, high chain-link
fence to keep them out. And later on when it started to snow, the first time it snowed it
dropped a foot of snow.
BM:
Oh, gee.
JH:
Here was them kids over there, coming down to those barrels and hanging their little
fingers in those chain-link fences and looking over there so . . .
[End Tape 3:A; begin Tape 3: B]
BM:
[Tape 3: Side] Two. Go ahead.
JH:
There go battle-hardened soldiers standing there with tears running out of their eyes and
dripping down off their chin. So we all of us got in touch – well all of us non-coms we
got a hold of the company commander and asked him to have a talk with him, which we
did. What can be done about it? And he said, “This is military gentlemen. You know as
well as I do,” and he says, “we’re having trouble. There’s enough trouble and expense of
getting food in here to you guys to get the job done. If you’re going to part with food like
that, we just can’t afford it for one thing.” And he says, “You’re never going to fill them
kids up.” Well who is? [And, he said] “That’s the Japanese people’s problem and you’re
not to mix in it.”
Then when I’d go out on my tour of duty, my riot patrol, we’d go by some of those little
grade schools, you know, and see the same thing: them little kids. And the teachers just
come right out and gather them little kids up and push them up to the school house. When
you’d see them, why they’d be out just like our kids, you know, for recess. And it took
almost three weeks before I could stop my squad from beside that fence and get those
teachers to say one word to me. We had a whole bunch of those cock-eyed little bars –
BM:
These are the chocolate bars?
JH:
Yeah, the little chocolate bars. I’d gone over to the kitchen and swiped a couple of
cartons.
BM:
[Laughing]
JH:
I did. [Laughing] I wanted to make friends with them kids, you know. My squad
contained eight men, plus myself. And six of them was back in that squad truck behind
me. I made them stay there, and my Jeep driver – I made him stay in the seat of the Jeep
and I got out and walked over there with my pocket full of them.
This one teacher – she’d seen enough of us and we hadn’t done any problems there, so I
talked to her. I said, “Did you happen to speak English?” I knew a little Japanese, but I
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�you know, I didn’t know all that much. And she said in just as plain of English as you
could get, “Yes, I do.” And so I told her, I said, “I have some of our rations, little candy
bars. They’re Tropical Hershey’s candy bars and they’re made by Hershey company. I’m
sure you know about Hershey’s chocolate bars.” And she said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “Well I
would like to give them little kids one of these bars.” I guess there must have been about
30 little kids that was in that class.
The next thing I knew, here come two more teachers down there. I guess they got to
wondering what was going on, you know. So they come down to see what was going on.
So them three got their heads together and they decided to let me pass out a bar to them
kids. So I got in the back of the Jeep and opened up one of them boxes and took it over
there. And I passed out a little candy bar to each one of them little kids and then I handed
all the teachers one. I ate one myself, to start with so they would know it was alright to
eat. Well after that when I’d go by, “Chocoletto-zho.”
[Laughing]
BM:
Were you able to do that again? Sharing chocolate with them?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Oh, that’s nice.
JH:
Yeah. I got my squad all together and I said, “Now it ain’t right that we just go and steal
these chocolates over there.” So we pooled our money and bought them. And that wasn’t
the only school. On that 40 square miles there was about four little grade schools on it
and one high school. But around that high school I never saw anything but a little bit
older Japanese boys that would’ve been maybe 14. But you didn’t see a girl, not a girl. It
was quite a thing.
BM:
And this was in Nagoya, Japan?
JH:
This was Nagoya, Japan. Yeah.
BM:
So you were in the Philippines first, and then in Nagoya –
JH:
Um-hmm.
BM:
And then your job in Nagoya was what again?
JH:
I was a riot patrol sergeant.
BM:
Okay. Which means what?
JH:
Huh?
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�BM:
Which means what? What does it mean? What’s the job?
JH:
Oh. To make sure that there is no riots going on in the area. Because we didn’t know, you
know, how they was going to receive us. For a long time you still didn’t know what was
going on, especially in that area where they’d use those incendiaries and burn everything
to the ground. You know, you’d have to naturally consider the fact that feelings wasn’t
going to be very good about you. So that’s what the deal was. We never did have any
problems.
This boy that I showed you here (my old buddy) – he had a squad, you know. He had a
different district than I had. He ran in to the same thing that I did. He had just an open
heart as I did. Then we had another buddy from Iowa, that the three of us were occupying
the same room together and all three of us were riot patrol sergeants and they had their
district, same as I did. We all had similar kind of situation. The Japanese people could
speak better English than we could.
BM:
Hmm.
JH:
The whole big bunch of them. There were very few of them you ever ran across that
couldn’t speak much English.
BM:
Um-hmm. How many people were from your area that you were over there with? From
Utah –
JH:
From Utah?
BM:
Or even from this northern Utah area?
JH:
Well, from Utah there was seven of us in that one assault battalion. And we spearheaded
every lousy battle that we had in there in Luzon. We was the first ones on [inaudible]
beach head. One of them was from Moab, down here. The other one was from Manila –
they’re both gone. The one from Moab, he wound up – his family is down here in Sandy.
And he passed away here, it’s been not quite a year now since he’s been gone. And the
other one has been gone a year. And those are all I know of from around here anywhere.
BM:
Were they coming from similar backgrounds? When you think of the people you served
with, were they similar kids as far as farm boys or ranch?
JH:
Yeah, quite a bit of them. Most of them were. Most of them in that outfit were. The outfit
we belonged to was a 25th Infantry Division. And their home base is Schofield barracks
within a 15 minute bicycle ride of Pearl Harbor. That division is regular Army. And we
was sworn into the regular Army and they can keep you just as long as they think you’ve
got anything that they need. My commander wanted me to ship over for two more years.
And I told him, “Nope.” I said, “I’ve had enough of the Army. I’ve had enough of the
fighting. I’m going back home over in that little valley that I know of and the surrounding
areas where they grow the most beautiful girls you’ve ever seen. I’m going to find me a
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�mate, and the next thing I’m going to do is I’m going to get me a horse. And get that
sucker so I can climb up in that seat and look in between his ears and get out on a range
where nobody can bother me.”
BM:
[Laughing]
JH:
And he looked at me. He was from Texas, he was from Dallas, Texas and he came off of
a ranch too, the louse. Well, that’s when we was coming home on points. I think I had 58
points.
BM:
Wait. So what does on “points” mean?
JH:
Well, points they give you for your accomplishments in the military anywhere. Chiefly
your battles that you were in, and your citations. I had three Bronze Stars; I went from a
PSE to a Buck Sergeant in 15 minutes. And that was under a heavy battle. I was still
packing a radio.
BM:
Because you were in communications?
JH:
Pardon?
BM:
Because you were trained in communications?
JH:
Yeah, um-hmm. I was still in communications. When we went up to Luzon to battle, I’d
never seen a radio before, but I’d seen machine guns and I’d been around machine guns
in basic training. So they attached me to a machine gun squad. And on this particular time
I’d been with that squad for a couple of months. The squad leader got shot through the
neck (right there, a bullet). Just shot him wide open while I was standing right there
talking to him with my radio in my hand to transfer a message from him to the company
commander. I was standing there trying to talk in it, all of a sudden pop! And something
hot hit me, went down my throat, and all in my eyes – I couldn’t see. I couldn’t hardly
hand on to that radio receiver, and I couldn’t imagine what in the sam-hell had happened.
And Dave, he just hurled. And then I realized what had happened, you know. “Pressure
point, pressure point, pressure point Hansen!” I tried to find it up there, couldn’t find it. I
had to go up on his fatigue jacket and get up here in his armpit and I was lucky enough to
find it. And then I was screaming and hollering for an aid man because he was bleeding
so bad.
Now I was having to hold him and tried to move him over so I could get him to go down
so that sniper wasn’t going to get us again. Here, a brand-new squad of fresh little high
school seniors that had come up to that squad that morning and didn’t know doodlysquat about combat. Nothing. Both guns sitting out in the wide open in a bad place and
we had a banzai attack coming down the hill up there, 500 yards away. Well, anyway I
hollered at those kids and told them to get them guns pulled back and get them up where I
was standing and they just stood there and looked at me. About that time the captain
come on and he said, “Hansen,” (it was a rare occasion you ever heard that man swear,
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�but boy he had some choice words that morning!), “what in the blankety-blank-blank is
going on up there?” And so I told him what had happened. Now he said, “You listen to
me and you make damn sure you listen carefully. Because what I’ve got to tell you,” he
said, “is going to mean that you’re going to have to dig in here. Get that radio,” he said,
“take over that squad immediately, and get them a moving. Even as I speak,” he said,
“you have a battle line under fire promotion from PFC to Sergeant. That’s your squad
from here on out buddy, and you make it work!”
BM:
And did you still have this guy?
JH:
I still had him, trying to get him down. Well at that time the K Company’s aid men heard
me and he come a hoofing up there. One of their first lieutenants (he was only about 20
feet away from me) and he had both hands full with his people. Then he dropped them
and come up to help me get him down. So anyway, got that all took care of. And him and
an aid man took David over and took him down. We were working on a real rocky,
awful, nasty spot. We called it the “iron head.” You couldn’t dig a hole.
And I turned and those kids were still standing there. This one kid I said, “If you don’t
get them guns back up here, you’re going to wish to blankety-blank that you did. You see
them Japs coming down up there? You’re out in the wide open!” And two of them had
came in the night before and it was the only two that he had in his squad at that time. The
other five had come up that morning. This one kid stood there and he said, “Well, I don’t
know who you think you are,” he says, “I had military training in high school, I just
graduated from it,” he says, “I don’t know why you can throw over at me.” And I said,
“Mister, one more word out of you without I see action and you’re going to find out
about it. Get a move on!” And he just stood there, just cocky – I couldn’t let him get
away with it. When you’re under orders when that happens, you take action, you take that
man out. So I pulled my .45 out, jacked her back, calm, walked down, knocked his
helmet off, smacked him right on the side of the face there. And I mean I put him down.
You’re told to kill them, don’t monkey with them. Well, I didn’t want to do that, but I
knew I had to get him out of the way. When I did that I got some action out of the rest of
them!
BM:
You got everybody psyched.
JH:
Yeah. So we got both guns back down where I could get a feel of the fire form, and then I
had to go drag him out along the way, because he was right square where I had to have
that ledge to go along the ground when he crawled up on you. Well I walked up to him
and hoped he didn’t get hit, backed up and got my arms under his boot heels like that and
under my arms, and I just dragged him down to where the rest of them were, his head’s a
bouncing. I thought he was dead and took him down and the K Company’s lieutenant
says, “Is he dead?” And I said, “I don’t know, and I don’t much care. I haven’t got the
time, I’ve got to get these guys set up.” And then I just pulled my canteen out (and that’s
one thing you very rarely had, was enough water). I just dumped that canteen in his face
and started washing him. And pretty soon he started showing some signs of life. The
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�lieutenant, he walked over, took the cork off his and dumped it on him. And between the
two of us we got him a going.
Well, to make a long story a little shorter, he turned out to be the best man we had in the
squad. When I left I recommended him to take my place.
BM:
Oh. That’s great. Well you’re a leader and a teacher with that, you know.
JH:
Well, that’s your job and boy, you better do it because if you don’t, they will.
BM:
Yep. And then you came back?
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
And you got back on your horse? And got married?
JH:
Yep, I did. I did.
BM:
What is the date of that?
JH:
Well we were married on the sixteenth day of August, 1946.
BM:
Oh. Okay.
JH:
I don’t think I’d been home – I don’t think I’d been home much more than a month. And
the funny part of it is I hadn’t ever dated her! I graduated school down there, the same
school she was and one of my best buddies that lived in Ogden come up here and he was
dating her when he come up. And I was dating her best buddy!
[Laughing]
BM:
The old switcheroo there!
JH:
Oh, yeah! [Laughing] Interesting!
BM:
And then you both moved in here.
JH:
Yeah.
BM:
Okay. Well I think at this point, what we ought to do is stop because we’re just about at
the end of this tape. And what I’d like to do is next time we get to talk, I’d like to pick up
from that point.
JH:
Okay.
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�BM:
Okay? And then we also want to interview a little more on, definitely on the veterans and
the World War II. I want to separate those two. But I am going to stop you here just
because we’re about to run out of tape, and I am out of tapes!
[Laughing]
JH:
You’ve got as far as you can go, I don’t want to overrun you!
BM:
You’re fine! You’re fine. This has been wonderful. Is there anything you want to say in
closing, before we sign off for today?
JH:
Well I would have this to say to your students, as I understand it. Listen to your teacher
and listen to your old people. Go and ask them some questions; don’t be afraid to go ask
them questions. When I came home, nobody knew anything about – well, they knew
where I’d been, but I just couldn’t talk about it. I didn’t talk about it until I had half of my
children here. And then the thing that knocked me to, was the simple fact: history wasn’t
being taught. Sports had all of a sudden taken place of history that these people nowadays
need to know about. Because I am just scared to death their going to take a good look at
her. And if you don’t know anything about it, you’re the first one’s to run. So I would say
to them, learn all you can from your elders and your teachers; if they’re willing to teach
you, listen to them. Then you’ll be a whole lot better off, and so will the nation.
BM:
Okay.
JH:
I guess that’s it.
BM:
Well thank you very much. This has been delightful. To be continued.
JH:
To be continued? Okay!
[Stop recording]
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�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/322</a>
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Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
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2013-01-17
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Title
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John K. Hansen interview, 12 March 2009, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Mr. Hansen talks about growing up in Garden City, Utah, and his earliest memories of Logan Canyon, three years in the South Pacific during World War II, 18 years in highway construction with W.W. Clyde and Company over in Springville, Utah, returning to Garden City to take over family sheep ranch.
Creator
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Hansen, John K., 1924-
Contributor
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Middleton, Barbara
Subject
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Hansen, John K., 1924---Interviews
Hansen, John K., 1924---Family
Garden City (Utah)--History
Sheep ranchers--Utah--Garden City
Sheep--Utah--History
Sheepherding--Utah--Rich County
Sheepherding--Utah--Logan Canyon
Ranching--Utah--Garden City--History
Ranch life--Utah--Garden City
Grazing--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon
Cattle herding--Utah
Cattle herding--Wyoming
Ranchers--Utah--Biography
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maintenance and repair
Fishing--Utah--Logan Canyon
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Medium
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Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
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Bear Lake (Utah and Idaho)
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Tony Grove (Utah)
Plain City (Utah)
Randolf (Utah)
Woodruff (Utah)
Temple Fork (Utah)
White Pine Lake (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Garden City (Utah)
Rich County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 3
Is Referenced By
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Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
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Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
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Sound
Format
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audio/mp3
Identifier
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FolkColl42bx2fd3JohnKHansen
Date Created
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12 March 2009
Date Modified
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2009-03-29
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/993bcca0830449a0c737649a3f49ab5b.tiff
e60067b8b7feb22d15c0651e10a088a2
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/319">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/319</a>
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Modified by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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2011-11-09
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Title
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Logan Canyon National Scenic Byway - U.S. Hwy. 89
Description
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Modified map of U.S. Highway 89 through Logan Canyon, Utah, from Logan, Utah, to Bear Lake, Utah and Idaho. Taken from Cache Valley Visitors Bureau's pamphlet entitled "Guide to Logan Canyon : national scenic byway."
Creator
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Cache Valley Visitors Bureau
Subject
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Logan Canyon (Utah)--Maps
United States Highway 89--Maps
Scenic byways--Utah--Logan Canyon--Maps
Medium
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Tourist maps
Spatial Coverage
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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2010-2019
21st century
Language
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eng
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the Cache Valley Visitors Bureau, (435) 755-1890 or 1-800-882-4433
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Image
StillImage
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image/jpeg
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LoganCanyonMap
Date Created
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2011
Date Modified
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1905-07-03
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/20ed8043a21f1ca4f2fb1f80780ee0b1.pdf
9a3ab79b19297e3ed816b1e1e6f27e2b
PDF Text
Text
About this collection:
By Thad Box
Logan Canyon runs east from the lush Cache Valley, which supported Shoshone families for
hundreds of years. Beavers raised their broods in the streams and marshes. The first Europeans,
mountain men and fur traders, gave rivers and canyons French names. Mormon pioneers
established farms and towns in the valley, cut mountain forests for lumber and railroad ties,
developed dairies and beef herds in the canyon. Landless, migratory sheepmen brought flocks
from afar. By the late 1800s, the land in canyons and mountains was barren. Sheep herds could
be counted from Logan by the clouds of dust they raised. Logan River and its tributaries were
polluted by silt and debris.
Utah Agricultural College was established in 1888 as Utah's land grant school. The Cache
National Forest was created in 1902 at the request of local citizens who feared mudslides from
denuded lands. These local citizens wanted the landscape rehabilitated. For the next 100 years
scientists, engineers and land managers conducted research, applied what was learned and rebuilt
the abused land. In so doing, hundreds of scientists, scholars, land managers and local citizens
helped reclaim the areas in and around Logan Canyon into a special place of beauty. They
gradually rebuilt its productivity. Hundreds of thousands of people come through the canyon
each year. The canyon has become more than a beautiful mountain canyon; it is a part of people's
lives and an icon of their culture.
Some of the earliest work at Utah Agricultural College and the Utah Agricultural Experiment
Station was stabilizing land to prevent landslides and improving overgrazed and overcut
mountains. Curricula were developed in the emerging fields of forestry, ecology, range
management, watershed management and environmental engineering. Managers were trained in
Utah, but worked worldwide. Academic units in the College of Natural Resources and the water
program developed reputations for land care. Their research was applied all over the world.
In an effort to document these efforts, Special Collections and Archives in the Merrill-Cazier
Library have the personal and professional papers of many of the scientists and land managers
who helped rebuild Logan Canyon. More are being added. These collections form a valuable
reference for anyone interested in land management and policy. These include papers from
pioneer academics such as Laurence Stoddart and Arthur Smith, forest ecologist Lincoln Ellison
and forest manager William Hurst.
Beginning in 2008, Utah State University’s Special Collections & Archives, the Mountain West
Center for Regional Studies and the College of Natural Resources Department of Environment
and Society collaborated to collect the oral histories of key land use managers and users. Trained
interviewers from The Logan Canyon Land Use Management Project gathered oral histories of
people who have worked in or enjoyed the Canyon during the last century. In these interviews,
available in audio and transcript form, people talk about what Logan Canyon meant to them. The
stories of ranchers, recreationists, scientists, activists, scholars, foresters and sheepherders add
cultural depth to the work of scientists, engineers and academics. This growing collection of oral
histories and personal papers from those who have worked in Logan Canyon is fast becoming a
major resource for others interested in rehabilitation, land management and policy. These oral
recollections form a basis for understanding policy in one area. Principles from them can be
applied to broader land areas.
�
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Where else is this found?
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/318">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/318</a>
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Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
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2012-10-16
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Title
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About this collection
Description
An account of the resource
One page essay discussing the importance of Logan Canyon to area residents through its many uses and the benefits of collecting oral histories, photographs, and other historic materials that document those interactions.
Creator
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Box, Thadis W.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Logan Canyon (Utah)--History
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Land use--Law and legislation--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range Management--Utah--Logan Canyon--Research
Reclamation of land--Utah--Logan Canyon--Research
Utah Agricultural College--History
Medium
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Essays
Color photographs
Spatial Coverage
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache Valley (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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2010-2019
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Type
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Text
Format
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image/jpeg
Identifier
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ThadBoxEssay
Date Created
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2011
Date Modified
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1905-07-03
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/c2bc879d31d909054da0909fac666fd0.mp3
f11ca2547bc83c84e9f284d11fe38961
http://highway89.org/files/original/c04b495f403d87adfcda6bcbb5de4ca5.pdf
b1d280c0cf16d53ff3274533349f23a2
PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Temple Sawmill
In Spring 1877, Brigham Young, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, decided to build a temple in Cache Valley. The locals looked to the canyons to the east for the
resources they needed to complete this huge task. By summer of the same year, Thomas X. Smith and
C. O. Card located an appropriate site in Logan Canyon, a side-canyon then called Maughan's Fork.
This was a very competitive time for lumber. Nearby, the Utah & Northern Railroad was being
constructed, and Coe and Carter, a company that supplied railroad ties, had scouts looking to the
mountains of northern Utah to supply the wood they would need. Upon receiving news of this, the
locals took immediate action to secure the stands of trees they had chosen for the temple. Card sent out
a team to begin construction of the new sawmill, and not a moment too soon. Historian Marion
Everton wrote, “When the Coe and Carter outfit arrived some forty-eight hours later they found the
first logs laid out for a big sawmill and men busily engaged in constructing shelters, but not too busy to
tell visitors that they intended to continue the occupation of Maughan's Fork with the exclusion of any
and all other outfits.”
Work progressed quickly, and on November 4, 1877, the mill sawed its first board. In 1878, the
side-canyon where the sawmill was located began to be called by an appropriate name: Temple Fork.
The sawmill proved to be overly capable, producing more wood than was needed for the new
temple. Contracts were made with the Utah & Northern to cut the extra wood into railroad ties, and,
ironically, the project that once rivaled the temple became a project that helped fund its construction.
The sawmill operated for 9 years, producing more than 2.5 million board-feet of lumber, 21,000
railroad ties, and many other wood products. It was closed down in 1884 and put up for sale, but there
were no buyers. In 1886, the sawmill met its end when it mysteriously burned down. Two sets of
men's footprints in the snow led to and from the site, which led people to suspect arson. However, no
clues indicating who set the fire, or why, were ever found.
Sources:
Simmonds, A. J. In God’s Lap: Cache Valley history as told in the newspaper columns of A. J.
Simmonds, A Herald Journal Book. Herald Journal, 2004.
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/312">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/312</a>
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2012-05-24
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Temple Sawmill
Description
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The sawmill that provided lumber for Cache Valley's LDS temple survived fierce competition, had a productive life, and then met its mysterious end. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
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Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
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Thatcher, Elaine
Subject
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Temple Fork Sawmill (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History
Temple Fork (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History--19th century
Sawmills--Utah--Logan Canyon--History--19th century
Medium
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podcasts
Spatial Coverage
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Temple Fork (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1870-1879
1880-1889
19th century
Language
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eng
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
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Sound
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audio/mp3
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Podcast9TempleSawmill
Date Created
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Feb. 22, 2011
Date Modified
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2011-02-22
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Witch's Castle
Located about 900 feet from the canyon floor, the Wind Caves represent thousands of years of
weathering by wind and water. The result is a beautiful cave-like formation with three delicate arches.
This limestone formation bears the local name “The Witch's Castle.” The resident witch is
known as Hecate, the name of an ancient Greek goddess associated with witchcraft and the underworld.
According to legend, if you venture into Spring Hollow, just across the highway, and chant the name of
the witch, she will appear. Sometimes she appears with her son, and sometimes with her dogs. She
often appears with long white hair, wearing a long pale dress. It is said that she has the ability to kill
car engines.
Some believe the legend dates back to the 1920s when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints built a girls' lodge at a nearby location. Or it could have come about simply as a result of
imagination and inspiration spurred by the unique natural architecture.
Whatever the origin, the legend has been preserved in the many so-called documented sightings
of Hecate over the years. In one sighting, a man named Clyde was driving his pickup through Logan
Canyon. His truck unexpectedly died near Third Dam, and there was a woman standing in the middle
of the road. The woman was wearing a long gray coat. Clyde frantically tried to restart the engine as
the woman walked around the truck, looking into the window. When she walked behind the truck, it
started up again, and Clyde drove off, watching in his rear-view mirror as the woman slowly followed
him. Only as he exited the canyon did she disappear.
If you are up there at night, you may hear Hecate's dogs howl. The sound is real. As the night
canyon wind blows through the caves, it could easily be mistaken for the howling of a supernatural dog
with a witch companion.
Sources:
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
Logan Canyon National Scenic Byway website: http://www.logancanyon.com.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/303">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/303</a>
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-05-24
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Title
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Witch's castle
Description
An account of the resource
The Wind Caves, a beautiful natural formation in Logan Canyon, has inspired stories of a supernatural resident, a witch named Hecate. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
Creator
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Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
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Sidwell, David
Subject
The topic of the resource
Wind Caves (Utah)
Wind Caves (Utah)--Folklore
Legends--Utah--Logan Canyon
Folklore--Utah--Logan Canyon
Hecate (Greek deity)
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
podcasts
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Wind Caves (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
2010-2019
21st century
Language
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eng
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
Type
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Sound
Format
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audio/mp3
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Podcast6WitchsCastle
Date Created
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Jan. 31, 2011
Date Modified
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2011-01-31
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Road to Recreation
When the Mormon pioneers were first settling in Cache Valley, recreation was very limited.
Not only did the pioneers have little time to devote to recreation, they had fewer options. The canyon
road at this time was not in the best shape, and recreating far up the canyon was difficult. Logan
Canyon was used primarily for the resources it provided. Most of the people who ventured into the
canyon were loggers, herders, hunters, or explorers.
On July 4, 1873, an LDS stake led by Apostle Brigham Young Jr. spent a day of rest and
recreation in the canyon. This may have been the first purely recreational use of the canyon by the
pioneers. The first published account of recreation in Logan Canyon showed up in the Ogden Standard
on August 17, 1888. The article stated: “Rev. Samuel Unsworth, rector of the Church of the Good
Shepherd in this city, returned yesterday, in company with his brother, from a pleasure trip to Logan
Canyon. Their appearance proves that the few days resticating have been of great physical benefit to
them.”
After this, the canyon began to receive increasing mention in the local press as a place for
recreation. It is likely at this time a group of Logan’s leading citizens began to make frequent trips to a
spot about six miles up Tony Grove Creek. The flowery meadow sprinkled with trees made an idyllic
setting for fishing and camping.
To those who used the canyon for work only, the sight of people camping just for fun invoked
envy. They began referring the area condescendingly as “Tony Grove.” The word “tony” was slang for
cultured or high-brow. This name was repeated so often, that it stuck…and grew to include the creek
and eventually, the lake that feeds the creek. Today, Tony Grove is one of the most popular hiking and
camping locations in Logan Canyon.
Sources:
Simmonds, A. J. “A Mountain Grove for the 'Tony Set.'” In God’s Lap: Cache Valley history as told in
the newspaper columns of A. J. Simmonds, A Herald Journal Book. Herald Journal, 2004.
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/300">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/300</a>
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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
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2012-05-24
Dublin Core
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Title
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Road to recreation
Description
An account of the resource
In the 1870s, Logan Canyon began to be used for recreation, a novel idea that led to the naming of one of the most well-known areas in the canyon, Tony Grove. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
Creator
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Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Thatcher, Elaine
Subject
The topic of the resource
Recreation--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Recreation--Utah--Tony Grove--History
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Tony Grove (Utah)--Name
Tony Grove Lake (Utah)--Name
Tony Grove Creek (Utah)--Name
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
podcasts
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Tony Grove (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
2010-2019
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
Type
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Sound
Format
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audio/mp3
Identifier
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Podcast11RoadToRecreation
Date Created
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March 8, 2011
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2011-03-08
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Old Ephraim
One of the most famous residents of Logan Canyon was a grizzly bear named Old Ephraim.
Old Ephraim was big even by grizzly bear standards. He was said to stand 9 feet 11 inches tall and
weigh approximately 1,100 pounds. However, since grizzlies normally range from 225 to 670 pounds,
this estimate is quite possibly an exaggeration used to make a good story even better. It is safe to say,
though, that Old Ephraim was intimidatingly large.
Like other bears, Old Ephraim was considered a nuisance by the sheep herders grazing their
flocks in the canyon because he had a tendency to eat their sheep. Many Logan Canyon bears were
hunted and killed by sheep herders trying to protect their flocks. One particular sheep herder named
Frank Clark was no exception. Beginning in 1911, Frank took his sheep into Logan Canyon every
summer. In the 45 summers he grazed his flock in the canyon, there were only two summers that he
failed to kill at least one bear.
In 1913, Old Ephraim began to visit Frank's flock. For 10 summers after that, he continued to
eat Frank's sheep. And for 10 summers, Frank used traps and guns, attempting and failing to rid
himself of the clever and unwelcome visitor. When Frank found Old Ephraim's wallow, a muddy
shallow pool of water where the bear spent time, he thought victory was close. He set up a bear trap in
the wallow. But Old Ephraim was very clever and picked up the trap without setting it off, dropping it
nearby before getting into his pool. Frank tried more traps in the following years with the same result.
The conflict between Frank and Old Ephraim continued until 1923 when the grizzly created a
new wallow. Frank decided to try his old trick at the new location. The next night, Old Ephraim fell
into the trap. One mile downstream, Frank awoke to, in his words, “an awful roar and scream” of
“mingled pain and misery.” Frank grabbed his rifle and ran through the dark to the wallow. There, he
saw Old Ephraim lunging about on his hind feet. Ephraim's right front foot was caught in the trap and
wrapped with 14 feet of chain. Still on his hind feet, the bear began to walk up the bank towards Frank.
Terrified, Frank fired his rifle, hitting Ephraim with several shots. The giant bear fell dead. Frank
described the death of Old Ephraim in these words. “I sat down and watched his spirit depart from that
great body, and it seemed to take a long time, but at last he raised his head just a mite, gasped and was
still.”
Frank then ran off to find his nearest neighboring herdsman in the canyon, and when he
returned, they skinned the bear and burned the carcass. Then, Frank buried the remains at this site now
called Ephraim's Grave. Later on, a Boy Scout troop went to the grave site and took the 15 inch skull.
They sent it to the Smithsonian, who confirmed that it had belonged to a grizzly bear. In 1978, the
skull came back to Logan on a long-term loan from the Smithsonian. It now resides on display in the
basement of the Merrill-Cazier Library at Utah State University.
Only later did people realize that Old Ephraim was Utah's last grizzly bear. When telling his
story afterwards, Frank Clark expressed regret over killing the bear. Today, Old Ephaim's grave stands
as a tribute to the grizzly bears that once roamed Logan Canyon.
Sources:
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
Recorded account of the killing of Old Ephraim written by Frank Clark at the request of the Forest
Service. Can be accessed on Utah State University's Merrill-Cazier Library website:
http://digital.lib.usu.edu/u?/Ephraim,78.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/294">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/294</a>
Date Digital
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2012-05-24
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Title
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Old Ephraim
Description
An account of the resource
The legendary conflict between sheepherder Frank Clark and Old Ephraim the giant grizzly bear is one of the most widely-told stories of Logan Canyon. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
Creator
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Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sidwell, David
Subject
The topic of the resource
Old Ephraim (Bear)
Grizzly bear hunting--Utah--Logan Canyon
Clark, Frank, 1879-1960
Grizzly bear--Utah--Logan Canyon--Folklore
Medium
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podcasts
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1910-1919
1920-1929
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
20th century
Language
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eng
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
Type
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Sound
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audio/mp3
Identifier
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Podcast8OldEphraim
Date Created
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Feb. 14, 2011
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2011-02-14
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
St. Anne's Ghost
Everyone loves a ghost story. Young people in Logan grow up hearing stories about the
ghost at “the Nunnery,” a story inspired by St. Anne's Retreat, in Preston Hollow.
In the early 1900s, Hezekiah Eastman Hatch, a prominent Logan businessman, built a
cabin at the location. His descendants expanded his cabin into a recreation camp for the family.
Over time, the camp grew to include 21 structures: two main lodges, six smaller cabins, a
playhouse, and several other buildings. Outside, there is a fire pit, fountain, bridge, and
swimming pool.
In the 1950s, the property was offered to and accepted by the Catholic Church. It became
a summer retreat for nuns and was renamed St. Anne's Retreat. At some point after this, the
ghost legend was born.
There are several versions of the legend. According to one, a nun staying at St. Anne's
Retreat became pregnant. To keep the birth a secret, the mother drowned her baby in the
swimming pool. Some say that you can hear the voice of a child coming from near the pool.
Others claim that the ghost of a nun haunts the retreat, eerily emerging from the forest.
Sometime she is accompanied by two white Doberman Pinschers with blood-red eyes. Others
have reported seeing a woman dressed in black who appears out of nowhere on the highway near
the retreat. And beware if you are a first born son, for if you see St. Anne's Ghost, your own
death is imminent!
Unfortunately, vandals visited the retreat from time to time, causing a great deal of
damage. As the ghost stories circulated, vandalism increased. The nuns became alarmed and
eventually no longer wished to stay at the retreat. So the Catholic Church sold the property.
Visitors, please note that it is private property. Please be respectful.
Sources:
Browning, Diane. “A Haunted Retreat.” The Herald Journal 26 Oct. 1986.
Moore, Carrie A. “Legends surround St. Ann's Retreat.” Deseret News 22 Jul. 2006.
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/291">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/291</a>
Digital Publisher
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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Date Digital
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2012-05-24
Dublin Core
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Title
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St. Anne's Ghost
Description
An account of the resource
According to local legend, a mysterious presence haunts St. Anne's Retreat in Logan Canyon. Voiced by David Sidwell. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History and Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sidwell, David
Subject
The topic of the resource
Saint Anne's Retreat (Logan Canyon, Utah)--Folklore
Medium
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podcasts
Spatial Coverage
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Saint Anne's Retreat (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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2010-2019
21st century
Language
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eng
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
Type
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Sound
Format
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audio/mp3
Identifier
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Podcast10StAnnesGhost
Date Created
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March 1, 2011
Date Modified
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2011-03-01
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Beaver Mountain Ski Area
Harold Seeholzer loved the outdoors, snow, and skiing. He and his wife Luella wanted to create
a place for family recreation during the winter, so in the late 1930s, Harold and other local ski fanatics
installed the first lift at Beaver Mountain, a single rope tow. There was no road to Beaver Mountain, so
skiers parked on the highway and hiked about a mile to get there. Because of this inaccessibility,
operations were moved to the Sinks area a few miles farther up the canyon, but this area had its own
problems, and little potential for growth. So in 1945, ski operations at the Sinks shut down.
Beaver Mountain still had great potential, despite its problems. Thanks to the efforts of county
commissioner El Ray Robinson and others, money was obtained to make the site accessible, and a road
and parking lot were built. Further developments came to Beaver Mountain with the help of pledges
made by the Mt. Logan Ski Club, the Forest Service, Cache Chamber of Commerce, and Harold and
Luella Seeholzer. In 1949, a new tow rope was added, and in 1950, a 2,700 foot T-bar was installed.
In 1961, Harold and Luella along with their four children officially formed a corporation. They
continued to improve the resort, adding more lifts and buildings. Although the resort was a great and
expanding success, one dream remained unfulfilled. From the beginning of his skiing career, Harold
Seeholzer dreamed of having a chair lift that went from the base of Beaver Mountain all the way to the
top. Harold died in 1968 without seeing this dream realized. However, his family continued to pursue
the idea, and in 1970, a 4,600 foot double chair lift was installed at Beaver Mountain. Appropriately, it
was named “Harry's Dream.”
In 1997, the ski resort came under the care of Harold’s son Ted, his wife Marge, and their
children: daughter Annette and her husband Jeff West, and son Travis and his wife Kristy Seeholzer.
Each family member does their part to keep the place running. From plowing and grooming the snow
to selling tickets and working in the shop, the Seeholzer family operates the resort. Marge manages the
ticket office. Jeff and Travis help out wherever needed. Ted oversees the entire operation. Company
meetings consist of six family members. And the operation continues to grow.
After 1997, the Seeholzers added a new maintenance building and a beautiful lodge addition to
accommodate the increasing number of skiers. They converted Harry's Dream into a triple lift, and in
2003, they put in a new lift, which added 400 acres to the resort. They named it Marge's Triple Lift. In
2009, they added a conveyor lift, similar to a moving sidewalk, which has been helpful in teaching new
skiers. The Seeholzers have future projects already in mind, and continue to dedicate themselves to
making Beaver Mountain Ski Area grow and prosper.
In the winter months, an average of 740 skiers per day enjoy the slopes of Beaver Mountain.
Today, Beaver Mountain Ski Area encompasses 1,100 acres and is the oldest family-run ski operation
in the country.
Sources:
Ted & Marge Seeholzer.
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
Beaver Mountain Ski Area website: http://www.skithebeav.com.
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/285">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/285</a>
Date Digital
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2012-05-24
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Title
A name given to the resource
Beaver Mountain Ski Area
Description
An account of the resource
Beaver Mountain Ski Area, the oldest family-run ski operation in the country, began with a single rope tow. Voiced by Val Grant. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
Creator
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Stokes Nature Center
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Grant, Val
Subject
The topic of the resource
Beaver Mountain Ski Resort (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History
Ski resorts--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Family-owned business enterprises--Utah
Seeholzer family
Seeholzer, Harold
Seeholzer, Luella
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
podcasts
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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2010-2019
21st century
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eng
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Podcast13BeaverMountainSkiArea
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March 21, 2011
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2011-03-21
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Power Struggle
In 1895, the Hercules Power Company built a plant at the mouth of Logan Canyon to provide
power for Logan. Households were charged per 40 watt light bulb used. The first bulb cost $1.25 per
month, and each additional one cost 50 cents per month. Since there were no other power providers in
the area, Hercules had a monopoly and charged what they wished.
At a special election in 1902, citizens voted in favor of a $65,000 bond to allow the City of
Logan to build a municipal power plant to provide power at lower rates. The city constructed a new
hydroelectric dam, which today is called Second Dam. They charged 35 cents per light bulb or 3 lights
for $1.00.
The Hercules Power Company was not pleased at having competition. During the summer of
1903, in the middle of construction of the city's new power building, Hercules raised their dam 5 feet,
which flooded a greater area, including where the new building was being constructed. Water flooded
across the brand new floor of the building.
Since the rights to the river were owned by the federal government, Logan City filed a federal
application attempting to claim rights to the site, but Hercules had beaten them to it, filing an
application only ten days before. After a heated debate, the federal government made a compromise
and authorized both Hercules and Logan City to operate dams on the Logan River so long as they didn't
interfere with one another.
The monopoly was broken and Logan residents had two separate power providers competing
for their money. A rate war ensued. Rates dropped to 20 cents per light, then to 10 cents. Running a
power plant with less and less revenue became problematic. It was made worse by the fact that this
was a time before metering. To determine their customers' bills, power companies would send a person
called a “checker” to visit each house and count the number of lights and other electric appliances, such
as toasters and irons. People paid per light and appliance, not for how long they used them, so no effort
was made to conserve electricity. Furthermore, people were not always honest when checkers came to
call. Appliances like toasters could be hidden away and, therefore not paid for.
Electric metering helped solve many of these problems. And despite the difficulties of high
demand and intense competition, Logan City's power plant has survived throughout the years. Today,
about 10 percent of Logan's electricity is produced by the city’s hydroelectric power plants like the one
here at Second Dam.
As for the Hercules Power Plant, it is no longer in operation. Ownership of the plant changed
hands several times over the years, and it ceased operation in 1971. In 1973, it was sold to Logan City
for a public park.
Sources:
Portraits in Time: Logan Canyon, a Historical Guide. Published by Bridgerland Travel Region and the
United States Forest Service Logan Ranger District.
Cache Valley Visitors Bureau website: http://www.logancanyon.com/index.php?id=17.
Logan City website: http://www.loganutah.org/Light%20and%20Power/Plants%20and
%20Substations/index.cfm.
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
�The History of a Valley edited by Joel E. Ricks 1956
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/282">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/282</a>
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2012-05-24
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Power struggle
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The first two plants to provide electricity to Logan utilized the Logan River, a power struggle over resources and customers ensued. Voiced by Val Grant. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
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Stokes Nature Center
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Grant, Val
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Hydroelectric power plants--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Hercules Power Company (Logan, Utah)--History
Logan City Light and Power (Utah)--History
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podcasts
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Logan River Second Dam (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1890-1899
19th century
1900-1909
1910-1919
1920-1929
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
20th century
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eng
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Podcast5PowerStruggle
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Jan. 24, 2011
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2011-01-24
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
Stokes Nature Center
History & Lore of Logan Canyon Podcast Series
Forest Army
When President Franklin D. Roosevelt entered the White House, he faced an economic crisis of
extreme proportions, the Great Depression. The Civilian Conservation Corps, created in 1933, was one
of Roosevelt's New Deal programs. It had two major goals: to help provide relief from unemployment
and to protect natural resources nationwide. The Civilian Conservation Corps, or CCC, provided
training and work for 2.5 million young men and succeeded in helping to protect, provide access to and
direct attention towards America's wild places.
CCC workers were paid a wage of $30 per month, $25 of which went to support their families
back home. When Cache County was allotted 113 spots in the program, 275 men applied.
Beginning in 1933, uniformed CCC workers labored throughout Logan Canyon. That first
summer, they built a camp at Tony Grove, called Camp F-1. The camp included a mess hall, recreation
hall, barracks, blacksmith shop, hospital, and several other buildings. CCC enrollees in Logan Canyon
worked on projects such as planting trees, building dams and bridges, fixing roads, cleaning and
repairing campgrounds, stocking fish, repairing soil erosion, and fighting forest fires. In their free time,
they made belts out of snake skins, played baseball, and pranked newcomers by sending them on
nighttime hunts for the “snipe,” a mythical creature which was rumored to inhabit the canyon.
According to an article printed in the Herald Journal in September 1933, "One of the most
completely successful of all the items on the New Deal program seems to be the forestry work of the
Civilian Conservation Corps. . . So well is the project working out that a person is inclined to wonder if
it might not be a good thing to make this forest army a permanent affair. . . All of this of course would
be pretty expensive but it might be money well spent. . . certainly the question deserves serious
consideration. This forest army is too good an outfit to be discarded off-hand."
The Guinavah-Malibu campground amphitheater, completed in 1936, is part of the legacy of the
CCC. The amphitheater boasts a stage of limestone surrounded by rows of benches, enough seating for
up to 1,000 people. Today, the amphitheater is used for lectures, concerts, religious services, and local
nature and history programs, such as those sponsored by Stokes Nature Center each summer. It also
remains a standing tribute to the CCC, a group that left a lasting legacy both through their conservation
work, and in the hearts and minds of Americans.
Sources:
Portraits in Time: Logan Canyon, a Historical Guide. Published by Bridgerland Travel Region and the
United States Forest Service Logan Ranger District.
Utah.gov History to Go website: http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/from_war_to_war/the
civilianconservationcorps.html.
Sweeney, Michael S. Last Unspoiled Place: Utah's Logan Canyon. National Geographic Society, 2008.
Utah State History website: http://history.utah.gov/research_and_collections/photos/ccc.html.
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/273">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/273</a>
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2012-05-24
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Forest army
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The Civilian Conservation Corps of the 1930s left a lasting legacy, both nationally and locally, including a well-known landmark in Logan Canyon. Voiced by Elaine Thatcher. Part of the Stokes Nature Center's podcast series History & Lore of Logan Canyon where each podcast is linked to a specific site in Logan Canyon. Includes transcription.
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Stokes Nature Center
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Thatcher, Elaine
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Civilian Conservation Corps (U.S.)--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Conservation of natural resources--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Forest conservation--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
New Deal, 1933-1939--Utah--History
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podcasts
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
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1930-1939
20th century
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eng
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of Stokes Nature Center, (435) 755-3239.
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Feb. 7, 2011
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2011-02-07
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Logan Canyon Reflections
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PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Ron Goede
Place of Interview: Ron Goede’s home in Logan, Utah
Date of Interview: 16 October 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Elaine Thatcher and Brad Cole
Elaine Thatcher
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Power Player Transcription Software:
Executive Communication Systems
Transcribed by:
Glenda Nesbit
Transcript Proofed by: Elaine Thatcher, Randy Williams (3/09; July 2011); Ron Goede
reviewed (27 July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: Ron discusses his family life, education in Nebraska in a
German and Russian German communities, undergraduate work University of Nebraska,
involvement with the Air National Guard as an aircraft mechanic, graduate studies at
Utah State University in fisheries, and his career in fisheries in Utah.
Reference:
ET = Elaine Thatcher (Interviewer; Director, USU Mountain West
Center for Regional Studies)
BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries)
RG = Ron Goede
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and
stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are
noted with brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
DISC One
ET:
This is Elaine Thatcher and Brad Cole. We are with Ron Goede at his home in
Logan. And it is October 16, 2008. And it’s about 2:15 in the afternoon. And so
we’re going to talk with Ron about his career in fisheries and whatever else comes
up in the conversation. So Ron, why don’t you start by stating your full name
your birthday and birth place?
RG:
Okay. Well my full name is Ronald William Goede. G O E D E. I’ve gotten used
to that all the time now. So I remember. I was born in Columbus, Nebraska on
April 4, 1934. Let’s see what all do we need now.
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�ET:
No that’s all I asked you for.
RG:
Do you want me to just proceed with that.
ET:
Well if you just want to give us a quick rundown on... did you grow up there?
RG:
Well I was there until I was twelve. It was; I don’t know it was a German thing.
And I was raised in a German neighborhood. So my father was a German
Lutheran Minister. And spoke German. And we moved to Lincoln. And then I
grew up in a German Russian immigrant culture. He took over a church there.
And that’s kind of where I grew up. So a lot of my, a lot of my cultural
background, even though it’s not my blood background. I was Prussian, you
know. But my background actually was more German than Russian.
ET:
So did you grow up speaking some German?
RG:
Oh yea. Yea
ET:
You still speak it?
RG:
Yea. Not like I did before. I’m getting self-conscious about it.
BC:
What was your dad’s name?
RG:
Herman Martin Adolf Gerda
BC:
And your mother?
RG:
She was Irene Lavern Hahappold. HAHAPPOLD. And she was from a farming
community. I had an intellectual side with my father’s side and she was from a
big German farming community. Ronald Grandion, Nebraska. So on those two
were big in my background. I learned to have a lot of consideration and respect
for both the intellectual and the working side. Thought a lot of both of them; and
that’s kind of stayed with me, always has.
ET:
What was your education like?
RG:
Um. Well of course I went to public school in Columbus up to the sixth grade and
then went to high school in Lincoln: Lincoln High School. And then I graduated.
And then [in] 1952 from there and then I started to attend [the] University of
Nebraska in Lincoln. Started in engineering but didn’t like it. Stayed with it for a
couple of years and then got out of it and went into arts and science. And that was
a real turn on for me. So after the engineering I majored in botany. And then also
I had a major in Botany and also one in Zoology. And I got a degree out of
Lincoln: a bachelor’s degree.
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�ET:
So you had a double major?
RG:
Yea a double major.
ET:
Botany and Zoology.
RG:
At that time they asked you to have one major and two minors or two majors.
And so I was really into the biology period. So anyway I also got involved at this
time in the military was hanging over your heads pretty hard. So I ended up, while
I was going to University of Nebraska, I joined the National Guard. And I was in
the Air National Guard and I was trained as an aircraft mechanic. So I worked up,
went through one enlistment there. And then I ended up with about a year of
active duty there too in the Air Force.
At that time you had to have eight years in some combination military. The more
active duty you had the less reserve time you had to do. So I was in there until I
was going to be until for that eight years. And then I let’s see. I came to school up
here at Utah State. I didn’t know what I wanted to do with biology so I applied for
graduate work at: Duke and British Columbia for forestry; and Missouri and Utah
State for fisheries; and Wisconsin and Purdue for pathology. And I figured well
I’ll let them wade it out you know. And I got accepted at all of them. And so then
that didn’t help. So I decided, actually one of the reasons I came to Utah was
simply because I’d never been to Utah before. I could have easily gone any one of
those directions because I was interested in all of it. But with a degree in Botany
and Zoology, a bachelor’s, the only job offer I got was with the – was a fruit
inspector in a post office in Kansas City. And I decided well I’d better rethink
this. That wasn’t one of them things I had on my plan.
ET:
So you were still doing your time in the National Guard when you got accepted
here?
RG:
Yea, that’s right. I would have just been finishing it here: the National Guard.
And then when I came here there wasn’t an Air National Guard unit at that time
close by here so I went into the standby’s reserve. I was still doing my eight year.
And then let’s see, I finished the degree well somewhere in there. Let’s see in
1958 I went to work for River Basin Studies for the Fish and Wildlife Services
River Basin studies in Alaska; and [I] did biological surveys on the Sisitna and the
Yukon.
ET:
Was this after you got your masters?
RG:
No, this was between, about half way. I didn’t have any money. And I hitchhiked.
I did about a year here and I was advised I had to get some money somewhere.
And I hitchhiked to Seattle. And then from Seattle the Fish and Wildlife Service
paid [for me to travel to Anchorage]. And then I had to live in a warehouse; I was
just gonna go right to the boondocks, rather than get an apartment. I just lived in a
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�warehouse: a Fish and Wildlife Service warehouse and slept on a sack of seines
[fish nets]. And I had that little stove in there and they’d bring. The guys that
worked the commercial fish stuff would bring me little catches every day. I had
shrimp and things like that. But it wasn’t too . . . couldn’t have many guests. And
then went out to start doing their surveys. And they hired me primarily for my
botany because they wanted me to do complete biological surveys in
impoundments. They were talking about putting three major impoundments on
the Mississippi River. And they wanted to know everything that was alive
basically in that proposed impoundments area up to everything that was going to
be impounded. So I worked the length of the Susitna. And I finished the project.
ET:
And you were identifying plants at some point.
RG:
Everything. Fish and anything I could get. But plants are the one they were
worried about; because it tied in so much to the game forage and everything else.
And the streams were pretty heavily fed by the glaciers; by the Susitna Glacier.
So it looked a lot like a sidewalk, you know, gray, the Susitna. And the salmon
couldn’t make it up, the water was too rough. They had an area called Devil’s
Gorge; the salmon couldn’t even get by there. In fact we lost a person. We lost a
person in Devil’s Gorge. But I finished that project.
And then I decided I had to make some decisions. Of course I couldn’t spend
anything because I gave the banks of power of attorney because I wasn’t in town.
There was no place to spend it. And so they just kept depositing it. That got me to
where I could afford to go back to school. So I came back to Utah State. And I
had a master’s project. I wrote a project up for and it went to Bill Sigler [he] was
my major professor. He was in charge of the Fisheries program, the wildlife
department then. And I wrote one [mater project] up on the effects of sodium
fluoride. Fluoride was a big issue then: fluoridization. And so I had a project on
the effects of sodium fluoride on primary productivity of a stream. I worked it out
on the Logan River. So when I finished that. That took a couple of years. That
was a slow process. In those days you didn’t get a lot of money for [graduate
work?]. A matter of fact I built my experimental unit out of an old airplane
canopy; one that Sigler had from surplus. It was a plastic airplane canopy and I
had to cut it and I molded it in my oven in my apartment; burnt the hell out of
myself. And it worked and then they decided to go ahead and build some for me
– have them built.
ET:
So these were what?
RG:
They were microcosms. They were tubes where I could put samples of algae and
so forth in there and then run the water past and collect the gasses and so forth.
And then I would measure the chlorophyll in the plants to give an idea of what the
productivity was. And that would go up or down, depending where the fluoride
level was.
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�ET:
Did the fluoride have a negative effect on the growth?
RG:
Not too much. It actually got a little. They got a kind of a carbon dioxide gush
when you treat them with the fluoride. So it had an impact but we never, with that
particular study we didn’t work out whether that was bad or not. But it was, it
was. We didn’t have calculators then either. Except the big Marchant and Fridens
[calculators] you know. We had to wait in line to use the calculators. You could
have never set that on a table because it went ka kink, ka kink, ka kink. Finally it
would slosh over. So anyway that was when I got a job. I started to work on a
Ph.D. but it was just. I simply needed to find a way to make some money again.
And I was kind of burned out with the whole process anyway.
So I got a job with Missouri; the State of Missouri, and started to work for them.
And I worked for about I think I went to work for them like in June of ’61. And
then in October of ’61 yea October of ’61 they had the Berlin crisis and I got
activated because I was still in the reserve. I only had about three months left on
my eight years and I got activated. So of course then I’d joined a unit in Ohio and
then they decided they didn’t have a crisis. But you couldn’t get out, you know.
They didn’t have a crisis but they couldn’t let you go either. So I spent a year
there just volunteering for temporary duty anywhere I could, just to keep it
interesting. So I flew all over. And I was still a mechanic. And I was flying all
over the country. So then when I got [out] Missouri had to [give me a job again].
[They] gave me a leave you know; they had to when I got activated. Except the
same job wasn’t there [when I got out, so] I had to take a different job. And when
I got to back to Missouri, I was working for their research group under Slim Funk:
John L. Funk, out of Columbia, Missouri and then I took over.
Just before I went to the service I had taken over the paddlefish study. This was
the reason I was interested in Missouri in the first place. Of course I didn’t get
that back. But I was also doing small bass mouth reproduction studies. And I kind
of lost, lost those projects. And I ended up in lakes and impalement studies and I
finally took over their public use – management in their public use areas like St.
Louis and Kansas City and places. And then they started, they sent me to
Stutguard, Arkansas to a workshop that Fred Meyer had. Fred Meyer was a
parasitologist with the Fish and Wildlife Service. And run it at the fish farming
experiment station in Stutguard. And that was a two-week class. And that really
turned me on. That was a really it was . . . it wasn’t strict fisheries, it was more
fish health. And Fred told me that in about ten years ago fishery biologists would
be a dime-a-dozen. But fisheries biologists with a special deal and I said, Wow
that’s heavy. So I went back to Missouri and I wasn’t back there long. And I gave
several papers, reports on the class. And I enjoyed doing that. That was fun.
And I still like to do things like that. Like to talk, I like to talk to a crowd. Just
like the Bridgerland Folk Society. But anyway while I was doing that, they asked
me that their Chief of Fisheries, P.G. Barnacle in Columbia and he was, would
have been. I mean yea, Chief of Fisheries. And he worked out of Jeff City,
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�Jefferson City. But he asked me if I was interested in, well he wanted me to take
a tour of their, the state fish hatcheries which were directed by AG George Morris
who ended up being. I would class George as another one of my mentors. But he
was a native Hillbilly: a very good fish rater.
ET:
Fish what?
RG:
Fish culturalist. And Missouri, well a lot, well a lot of the culturists in those days
were locals. You know the people that have a knack for it are real savvy of doing
it. They didn’t know why they were doing some of those things. But when I was
taking the tour he had another man Harvey Willoughby was along. And he was
chief of hatcheries for the Fish and Wildlife Service out in Minneapolis. And I
had a good time with them. I could really relate to Harvey. And so Harvey and
George both became really good friends. And they were until they died. I was
always in touch with those two. But George and Harvey were both inducted into
the Fish Culture Hall of Fame, they call it in Spearfish, South Dakota. A Fish and
Wildlife - there’s a national program.
ET:
I never knew it was there.
RG:
Yea. And they have. So those two both made it into the [Hall of Fame]. And so
they would good ones to draw to you know. Then they asked me if I would.
What?
ET:
The Fish Culture Hall of Fame? And it’s with what the state fisheries up there?
RG:
No. It was actually started by someone. Actually a friend of mine, Arden
Trandell, who was Fish and Wildlife Service.
ET:
Arden Trandell?
RG:
Trandell. Yes. And then he retired. But he’s, in fact I think Arden’s in there too.
And then he ran it; took care of it for them for awhile, after he retired. And
they’ve got the biosketches and CV of everybody’s that’s gotten. I’ve got all
those. They ran it kind of through the American Fisheries Society. Then after I
took that tour Harvey got his degree. Harvey Willoughby. I’m just, I’m pointing.
This is a nondescript point. Amorphous. I guess. But anyway Harvey got his
degree at Montana State with C.J. DeBrown. And he had two thumbs. From this
joint down there were two little thumbnails.
ET:
Oh my word.
RG:
Just on the one hand. And I learned fairly early on that he would distract you that
way. When you were arguing with him, he’d fool with that thumb. And I’d tell
him, “Damn it Harvey, put that in your pocket.” And he’s says, “Well it works
sometimes.” And I’d say, “Well I bet you can pick both nostrils at the same time.”
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�ET:
But he was just a wonderful guy. He finally retired in oh Grand Junction. And
he’s dead now.
And his name is Willoughby?
RG:
Willoughby. W I L L O U G H B Y. Just a great guy; he ended up being Chief of
Hatcheries for the Forest and Wildlife Service out of Washington. And really did
a lot of work with new species of fish in Europe oh like the Samo Hucho hucho.
The big Danube trout that they tried [and the] Lake Horid trout that they brought
over here and tried in this country. Neither one of them worked all that well. But
he was just a real
ET:
The Danube trout and the what?
RG:
Lake Horid. I think its H O R I D trout. It was from Central Europe. From the
Alps. But Harvey was a shaker and a mover you know. He was a good advocate
of culture and disciplined culture. And I thought a lot of Harvey. And George
was. Old George Morris was a great, had a great influence on me. And I had my,
when I was trained.
When I got out of the Air Force this last time; after then they gave me a discharge
you know. Then I was finished with it. But I had nine years by this time. But
while I was an aircraft mechanic I got an enormous respect for preventive
maintenance. And I was a crew chief taking care of the aircraft, you know. And I
was working with fighter aircraft. I had the F-80’s and 86’s and 84’s. And, but
that stayed with me. I still feel that way. And I carried that became part of my
professional credo. You know that take care of it before it breaks. And don’t let it
break with it’s up there. The pilots take issue with that. They don’t like that.
When they were going down they looked to see who signed the paperwork. So
this all, this all comes down to where I kind of. Where I went and why I went
there, and what I did when I got there. You know. I started in Missouri I got really
interested in the fish health was a big part of it. And the fish diseases. And while I
was working for Missouri they sent me to Lee Town, West Virginia for about
eight months to study and Dennis Snieszko, who was kind of one of the world
leaders in fish pathology in the world.
ET:
What was his name again?
RG:
Snieszko. S N I E S Z K O: Dennis Stanislas Snieszko. He came here, he was
educated in Poland and came here to get away from Hitler. And because they
wanted him on their bacteria warfare; and he wouldn’t do it. So he came here and
went to work for Kent Dietrich which was bacteria warfare in this country. But
that was okay as long as it wasn’t Adolf. And he didn’t like it. He was a gentle
man. And I had, I had it [?] So I got those three. I had four mentors in my life.
My father was one and then Snieszko, Bill Sigler and George Morris. People that
had that kind of impact on me. A lot of people were teachers, but I always add a
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�little extra for the mentors. They really get down inside. And I guess Dennis
Snieszko is dead now. But boy I had a huge respect for him. Um, let’s see.
ET:
How long were you there?
RG:
About eight months; it was training, a formal training. They would only take four
people a year. So then I was one of the four and it was very intense. Eight hours a
day. You had four hours in a lecture and then four hours in the lab. All just, every
day of the week. And you know, you were, you had exams and all that business.
So it was formal. And Snieszko made a comment. He had been criticized by some
of his peers for taking time out for to train from a research program. And his
response to that was, there’s no point in building the bricks if there’s no one to
build the houses. I still get choked up with this because he really meant a lot. And
that stuck with me. And I never got that out of my system. So I did all my career a
lot of training. But always I did it at the University here. But I did a lot of
workshops. And when I developed that autopsy system I taught that to around
1500 people in 32 different states. And so that was a heavy, heavy part of my
program was to pass on what we were finding to people, other professionals. So
and I just. There were just us two. About two years ago. Two or three years ago I
got the Snieszko Award finally. For distinguished service from the American
Fisheries. And it’s interesting. You know one of the other scientists there, which I
got to be really good friends with and was also, is a world famous pathologist.
He’s dead now too. But it was Ken Wolfe. And Ken got the first Ph.D. here at
Utah State.
ET:
Really
RG:
Not in fisheries. But the first. That was right after they went to the, at University
from Ag College to University. He was the first Ph.D., Bill McConnell got the
second one and John Neuhold got the third one. So, but Ken was a. He started the
work with cell culture and stuff with, in fisheries. And so they could do. He was
the first, developed the first cold-blooded cell line. So they could do the work
with viruses. And I used his methods when I came here I found virus in Kamas;
at the Kamas hatchery: the IPN virus. And started his cell culture here in my lab.
But I was close friends with Ken until he died too. And Glen Hoffman was kind
of the big. Did a lot of the early work on whirling disease. He was there too.
These guys were all world class fish pathologists, men very well known. Hooked
into. n Italy everybody came there to see those guys, you know. So you got to
meet all these people and talk to them. And a lot of them spoke German.
ET:
So you got along fine.
RG:
Yea. It was funny how many of them did speak German; they weren’t all
Germans. But German for awhile was kind of the technical language, scientific
language. So anyway, so that’s where.
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�Then I came back to Missouri and I built their first disease lab, fish disease lab
that they’d had. Down in southeast Missouri, down near Cassville Missouri. Not
too far, about sixty miles out of Springfield. At a stake park down there. And had,
and started working with fish quality. I liked that. I took it a step beyond the
health and or disease and decided I was interested in the quality in a more general
attack. And disease was just a part of that. And that’s kind of, that kind of
became my thrust, all through the rest of my career. Was the fish quality and of
course a lot of work with disease. But always in the context of quality.
ET:
So about what year are we up to now? When you came back to that
RG:
When I came back… I came to Utah after. I came back to in ‘62 after the air
activation. And then went to Missouri for about eight months. And then came …
I had worked before. I had to work. I went to work for the hatcheries there after
Harvey. Had that meeting with Harvey, tour with Harvey Willoughby and
George Morris. Apparently I didn’t know that but I was being assessed or
evaluated. To see, because they were worried about putting a technical person
with these old guys. You know. They weren’t happy about me being there. Those
old guys. They had. Then you had a college graduate they stuck a couple of
adjectives in there too. But Harvey maintained that since George was kind of a
hillbilly himself. But Harvey said he didn’t know many people who would, who
would get along with those guys. But he thought I would. And so the very first
job I had there was working. And so I went to work as a hatchery biologist. And
very first job I had there was a disease case. I never forgot. I still use this in
lectures and stuff. But the, he didn’t want me there. That was pretty obvious.
And he was very nervous about me being there.
ET:
Harvey didn’t?
RG:
No this old guy that was the hatchery superintendent for the Roaring River
Hatchery. Bob Price. And we ended up being really good friends too. But he
asked me. I said, “Well in the first place in Missouri you don’t just sit down and
get right at the subject. You’ve got to get over to it, you know. Talk about the
weather and everything else, you know.” And I finally said, “Well I understand
you’ve had some trouble here.” Oh, he says, “they’re dead. But I don’t think it’s
anything serious.” And he was serious. He was serious as hell. But I knew just
exactly what he meant. But I was really struggling to keep from laughing you
know. And that’s always stuck with me. That there’s being serious and then
there’s being serious. You know. He was worried about it wasn’t going to be
serious for him. He knew the fish were in trouble. He didn’t know whether he
was.
ET:
They’re dead, but it’s nothing serious.
RT:
Yea. But I don’t think it’s anything serious. And so I started picking up a lot of
their jargon. Well we cut it off twice, but it’s still too short. And then I’ve. I had a
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�pretty active program there. And I started the kind of an inspection of the stations.
Boy I spent an awful lot of time on the road, sitting there drawing stuff on napkins
in the coffee shops, trying to figure out how we’re going to approach this. I
always used to. I always used the approach of what are we going to do? I never
did say, “What can I do for you?” And I think that made a big difference for
them, because I made sure that. Because they knew a lot of stuff about fish that I
just. I knew how to. What we were going to have to call some of it. But they
didn’t know. They knew what to do. They had a system for, when they had a
leaking dam board and a raceway. You just can’t seem to stop it from leaking.
They used horse manure. They called it super seal. But it’s the. And it didn’t
work as well from cows because their ruminants and they break the fiber down
too far. But horses they put, it’s dry. It has to be dry of course. They’ll put that in
there and it sucks that in to those boards. And then it swells and it’s obsolete.
ET:
Oh for heaven’s sake.
RG:
And so. The first time I ever went looking for. Up at Kamas they were having
leaky boards. And we went out and got some. I had a tech, one of the techs that
was working for me. We walked: a gal. We walked out and got. I said I got a
bucket and we went out and got some horse manure. And we came back and the
assistant Superintendent Ron Russell. He said, what have you got? And he looked
in there and he say’s I’m not sending you out for strawberries again. But they got
a kick out of that. And so they started calling it super seal too. Now you can’t
find horses. So there was a lot of those kinds of things. I had to take that and
understand why it was working and try to bring it down into some kind of a
quantifiable thing. And I loved it. I really fell in love with the work then.
Because I felt that they needed me and I needed them. And then that’s always
stuck with me. And it was with me when I came here. Bill Sigler recruited me
down here. He called me and said that this job was open out here and that this lab
was built in 61. They started building it in 61. George Post. And so he said, he
wanted me. He was assigned, or asked by the State of Utah to find somebody.
And so Sigler thought that I would be a good one for that. And so I came. And I
thought then. I hated to leave Missouri but this was a whole new, whole new
thing here.
ET:
What year was that?
RG:
That was ’66 when I came here. I was. Sigler called me in 65, the spring of 65 and
I told him I wouldn’t do it unless I had at least three months to get somebody in
place and trained to do the job there. So then they gave me that much time. And
then I came here. But I always, quality, fish quality was central to my program.
So that in 1967 I found the virus in Kamas in the Kamas hatchery.
BC:
And where’s Kamas at?
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�RG:
It’s up by the Jordan[elle], by the Heber and Kamas and Midway. Kamas is on
the Provo [River].
ET:
It’s up on the Wasatch back.
RG:
Upper Provo River yea.
ET:
You found whirling disease up there.
RG:
No IPN virus. It was one of. It was actually. He was losing everything. In little
brook trout. And I looked at those fish and I says, that’s. And I wasn’t even set up
for it yet. And I said “that’s got IPN written all over it: Infectious Pancreatic
Necrosis.” And so I had a friend in Hagerman, Idaho who was at the Federal
Hatchery there. He was a hatchery biologist who had been through and had
already set up some cell culture. And so I took samples up to him and we ran it
through the lab there. And it came out positive. And then I, then I started. It took
me awhile to set that all up here and the get the equipment I needed. And then I
started the inspections. I started inspecting all of the stations.
ET:
So where was the lab here that you set up? Was it on campus?
RG:
Yea. No it was out at the experiment station across from the landfill there.
BC:
On second north?
RG:
Yea. And that’s. You know I had a little office. Merlin Olsen came out to see me
and he didn’t even fit in my office. I told him Merlin we got to go outside.
ET:
That’s still a fisheries office isn’t it?
RG:
Yea. And it’s, it’s re-expanded a lot. It’s a full. That was about 1967. Well it was
‘68. I had basically a full service pathology lab going there. I had the cell cultures
and we had the bacteriology and everything. And it stayed that way. Then in [?]
cause now we’re starting to get down to here you know. This was the formative
stuff that got me into all this. They were having a lot of trouble. You have to back
up here now a little bit and realize where fisheries were at that time. You know.
Like in the ‘50s still, fisheries was pretty trial and error. Especially in Utah and
places like Utah because they were damming all the. Putting it would be the large
central Utah project dams or small irrigation dams. But it was getting where they
didn’t have fish for that. This was, there were no lakes in Utah other than the
Uintas which didn’t have fish. And so you couldn’t just dam that up and hope that
the fish that are there are going to take over. Because it was a different habitat.
And so, and they were doing a lot of trial and error. There wasn’t a lot of sense.
Just put barracuda in you know. Oh let’s try those. They’re pretty. And then you
know. Piranha you don’t have to feed them very often, you know. Oh look,
you’d put a hand. Put a sign there that says keep fingers out of water and you’d
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�have it made you know because that’s an invitation to. Wouldn’t have to feed
them. And this was a research program. The experiment station was primarily to
develop fish culture techniques and methods and equipment to get better fish and
more fish. Primarily more fish. And so I took issue with that whole, that whole
idea. And I told them, I can’t buy. I don’t want to go for more fish. I’ll go for
better fish. And that’s more of a sensible goal than as many fish as I can raise. I’d
rather get the best fish I can raise. And then also decide what you’re going to
plant; what species, when you know. When do you plant them, how many do you
plant. And feed. They were still feeding a little meat when I got here. You know.
In Missouri I had that too. I developed diets. But that was. You would feed livers.
Get a lot of livers. And they’d dye them green so that you wouldn’t sell them for.
And that was the law. And nothing like
ET:
And you fed that to the fish huh?
RG:
Nothing like grinding up a bunch of green liver you know. God, that’s awful stuff.
And then the. Those old superintendents told us. Always figured you couldn’t
raise a trout without liver. And so a lot of times they just almost beg you for more,
some liver. Because they said, I know this is going to do it. And so I’d go ahead
and I’d recommend a little liver for them, just because it made them feel good. It
never did do any good. But anyway the upshot was, part of this is the fact that
there were no diets for trout like the pellets. Like we feed now. And we were
feeding some pellets, but the diets weren’t well worked out. And they would
break in 40-50 days you know. They would have trouble. They would have to
feed a little meat. And everybody, there were several serious programs in the
country working on diets. So a good part of my first year or so was testing,
developing and testing diets. I had mixers and pelleters and everything here. And
then I’d have to. In order for anybody to bid on our feed contract, it might be a
million pounds of feed. They would have to, we would have to test the feed. But
all of this was part of that quality. A lot of the diseases; the bacterial and virus.
The microbes that we had were there because of the feed wasn’t good enough.
They made them very susceptible to everything that was trouble. And so we had
to work. Then we so that’s program. We even had one that we worked out with
Paul Cuplin who was Chief of Hatchers for Idaho. Paul and I worked up a
program on jogging, fish jogging. We’d have them pull. Take the, in the
hatchery, lower the water so that the fish would have to swim harder. And let
them swim for about an hour and then fill it back up. Get ‘em ready.
ET:
Fish exercise program huh
RG:
We called it jogging. And we also had programs for stamina. And stamina was a
big thing. And this gets in the whole idea of fish quality which was. But the fish
stamina, we had a stamina tunnel out here where you would. It would be about
eight foot long and a big. I think it was an 8 inch plastic Plexiglas tube and
reservoirs. And you’d put fish in there and then you would. You could pump
water through it at a given velocity. You measured fish swimming speed in body
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�lengths per second. And you would swim them at a given body lengths per
second for a given time and find out what the. Then you could measure. A lot of
times they would simply start to drop out of the picture, because they couldn’t
hold. They could hold for awhile and then they’d get tired. And you couldn’t tell
whether they were sweating or not. Hard to do with a fish you know. But
anyway so then you measure how long it took them to fatigue and then, and then
how long they could. You would have to let them rest and put them in it again.
But in the streams they don’t always have a choice. So but that all became part of
what you had to evaluate in order to evaluate what the quality of the fish was.
ET:
And was this work applied throughout Utah. Or mostly up here in the North
RG:
No it was. But that was the thing. My program was basically state-wide. And it
was the only program. So they were beginning to pretty much do what I wanted
them to do.
BC:
Was it a program just for the state hatcheries, or does it cover the commercial
hatcheries?
RG:
No, the commercial. We started doing it for the commercial hatcheries later.
They were hard to work with. I had a long history with White’s Trout Farm out
there. [Speaking to Brad Cole] Your neighbor [at White’s Trout Farm]. Clark
White had , Grant’s dad or uncle was the first one. But they’ve had meat and
stuff for a long time. So there’s nothing grosser than that, a big old plop and it’d
float out then [?] and then the fish just coming roaring in there to eat.
ET:
Really. I had no idea. So now at this point did you ever get your Ph.D.?
RG:
Nope. I never [did]. No. In there when I was. That’s why I came back. That
was one of the reasons I came back here. But while in that time I got par planitis
in my eye. They didn’t know what it was for quite a while.
ET:
What was it called?
RG:
Par planitis is a part of the eye. And it was a sterile inflammation; wasn’t a
microbe. And they worked on that for quite a while. Keith Gates was my eye
doctor; it took him quite a while to diagnose it. And he finally said. Discovered
that in England where they have socialized medicine they keep a lot of these
records in one database you know. And he said. “A hundred percent of the par
planitis sufferers were smokers.” And I smoked then. And that was good enough
for me you know. That didn’t mean that everybody that smoked couldn’t get par
planitis. But everyone that had par planitis was a smoker. And I told him, well
that could just be because of you know, that always changes things with the
smokers. They get vassal construction and that sort of thing. So I quit that. But it
did a lot of, a fair amount of damage and I was on steroids for about two years:
Prednizone.
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�And I backed off. I asked him what I was facing. And I said I don’t quite
understand now what route to take in my career. It looked like I probably was
going to loose the sight in that eye. And he advised me to just, it might be well to
look for more administration. And that wasn’t what I wanted to do. But I dropped;
I basically just gave up on the. I just decided I had some things I wanted to finish
while I still had enough eye to do it. And I dropped the Ph.D. program. And still
did a lot of work on it. And the funny part is I had, I already had the class work
and I had taken the comps. I just, I just had still a fair amount of work to do on the
research. And then it probably wasn’t smart to drop the thing when I was already,
had two legs on you know. But I’ve never regretted. It never did, never made too
much difference to me. I just kept. I’ve always kept. I still even now, and it’s
been. I’ve been retired for eight years now. And I still read like I did when I
hadn’t retired yet you know. I keep up with the professional stuff because that’s
where my interests always were. I don’t ever read. Lisa [wife] can’t understand
that because I’d be laying there reading. She thinks I’m reading a novel and I’m
reading up on the history of western thought. She says, “You mean like west.
Like Box Elder?”
BC:
Is there any?
RG:
There’s no thought over there. They haven’t got that far yet. But I’ve always
been. I’ve loved information. I’ve just never been much of a novel reader. But
I’ll read Garret Harden’s Tragedy Commons or something like that. And I love
that stuff so.
DISC Two
RG:
But the quality control is so important; and that all is brought into play. But what I
was trying to point out was we had to develop all these other things before we did.
First you had to know how to even measure the quality. We worked that out with
the. We set up quite a physiology lab up there. But that was where my big
interest was: measuring stress and quantifying stress you know. And measuring
the same things you do in people; the same steroids and so forth. And define what
the stress is and therefore help you define which were the stressors. A stress is a
response and a stressor is what causes the response. So stress is good. The actual
response that’s one of your ways your body has of keeping up. It’s when it has to
do it too long why then it goes to distress and maladaption rather than adapting.
And so then I worked up a system for quantifying that and quantifying health. I
hated when we started to do the inspections for the diseases and the certification.
We killed a lot of fish then just to take just to do the surveys. And I hated just
coming up just whether they had these diseases or not. I wanted, if we’re gonna
kill them let’s get some information out of them. And so that’s what. And so I
developed what they call the HCP: the Health Condition Profile. And that’s the
one I taught. That really caught on finally. I published that in the American
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�Fisheries Society. And that come on. That’s the one I got, people were asking me
to teach that all over the country and in Canada and in Mexico.
ET:
RG:
So some of the work you did helped changed policies at the state and national
level
Yea, very much so. And I was always a member of the fisheries staff down in Salt
Lake. Went to all the staff meetings and I always had a heavy impact on what
they did and the directions they took. And so I knew also what the frustrations
were with the legislature and a lot of times I would have to do battle with them.
They didn’t. That never bothered me too much. There were a lot of times when I
couldn’t come down and couldn’t make it to the staff meeting in Salt Lake. And
they’d do something they knew I wasn’t going to agree with. And then they’d
have to draw straws to see who had to tell me it. The secretary followed me out
into the parking lot one time up there and she said, “Wait I got most of your
comments, but how do you spell sucks.” You know.
So the thing is that the Colorado River Wildlife Counsel asked in 1967. They
asked for me to come up with some idea on. I accused them of dangling fish and
that was the term. I got Harvey Willoughby going on that. I said, “You’re into fish
dangling that’s what you’re doing.” And he says, “What do you mean?” And I
said, “You call and say, we got IPN do you want them. Do you still want the
fish? We’ve got IPN virus.” And I knew a lot of people who were really in sorry
need of the fish. They’d go ahead and take them anyway. Even though they were,
they carried this virus.
And I said, “No.” I said, “I’m just telling you, you’re dangling the fish.” I said,
“Look you can have these.” And so they actually asked me to come up with some
kind of a way to how do we approach fish dangling. There were seven states in
the Colorado Wildlife Council: the seven states on the Colorado. I was so
involved this is hard for me to put this all in one dimension like that. But I
started. It took me three years actually. I came up with the first meeting I had with
them after we talked about the need to do something about this. Then I told them
what I thought was going on and I wanted to, I said, “We need to start looking for
this stuff. And I found out that the ones that were fighting it. I finally realized that
they were afraid they already had these things, and what happens then. And I told
them, “Just don’t bury the horse until you know he’s dead,” you know. “Let’s see
where we are with this thing. We’ll do a survey.”
We had a list of diseases; I put that together. And so they said, they appointed the
Colorado River Wildlife Council fish disease committee. And we worked. And
that was composed by design, one fish, federal pathologist, one state pathologist,
one state fisheries manager and one state fisheries administrator. So that we got
all those elements to argue it out before hand in committee and then go talk to the
larger technical committee and then the council itself.
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�And boy I had a real round. The first meeting then, it was in Paige, Arizona. And
I really got into it with them over there in that. They used parliamentary trickery
to get the floor away from me you know. And they asked if they could ask a
question so they gave the floor up. I gave the floor up so they could ask this
questions. And then they wouldn’t give the floor back to me. And I blew my cork,
you know. And I told them, “My God, you’re gonna listen.” And they says,
“Well.” They said, “We got to study this thing.” And I said, “It’s only . . . this
isn’t the communist manifesto. It’s a three-page policy.” And I said, “I assumed,
I guess I was misinformed. I assumed everybody could read. Everybody that
comes to this meeting can read. And I really got nasty with them. And they finally
agreed to read it and we come in the next day and they passed it. Now as far as
that committee was concerned, and then that goes on back to each of the seven
states and they decide whether they’re going to. They all have to ratify what the
policy that we had developed.
BC:
And what was the policy exactly?
RG:
The policy was that basically you couldn’t, wouldn’t be able to introduce fish into
the Colorado River drainage unless they’d been inspected and certified by
somebody. Which they really sadly needed. They all had their own kinds of
statutes. So this was the policy, they would use their statutes however they had
them set up in order to comply with that policy.
ET:
So did this have to be accepted by legislators, or just through . . .
RG:
No they could do it. Well some of them did it through the legislature but some of
them already were. Like Utah was enabled. We had already been enabled by the
legislature to write rules.
ET:
So this just went to the Fish and Wildlife Service then? Or the Fish and Wildlife
Department.
BC:
Division
ET:
Division. Whatever it is at the state level?
RG:
Well the fish. Oh at the state level. Yea.
ET:
That’s what you’re talking about.
RG:
Yea, each of the local. That’s what the council was. The council didn’t have the
Fish and Wildlife Service. It only had the states. And they all agreed. They just
didn’t they didn’t know how to approach it. And that’s what I had to do. But at
this time, at this time we found out that the. Well I found out that we didn’t have
standard methods. So if you’re going to inspect and have. You got to have some
kind of standard methods and people acceptable to use them.
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�ET:
Now when are we talking about? When did this happen?
RG:
This was [19]67. It took me ‘67, ‘68 let’s see. No ‘67 was when I did it for Utah.
‘69 I did it for. I was asked to go to Colorado River Wildlife Council and then
that took basically it took then through ’70; let’s see ‘68, ‘70. Yea it took me two
years to get it all set up so that they would all take. And we finally passed it and it
went into effect in [19]73. And from ‘73, I was on the committee for nearly 20
years. And we basically met every year and we would, we had forms they had to
fill: had inspection forms that had to have standard methods in order. And people
that were on our list as acceptable to do the inspection. And we had to put that all
together. And then we would meet periodically to fine-tune the thing if we had
problems. But it worked well.
ET:
Is the Logan River part of that drainage?
RG:
No
ET:
It doesn’t ago into the Colorado River does it?
RG:
No but the states all, what the states all did that was just [like what] that council.
The states all passed it for their whole state. So that once we did that then it was
the same for the Logan River and the Bear River and as it was. This is all the
Great Basin here so. And the Colorado River is. Well a lot, a lot of, about half the
states in the Colorado River drainage. And it’s the same way with the upper
Colorado States: Idaho, Colorado and Utah kind of sit at the top of the drainage.
But it was difficult because we did. And then also all this time I was also working
with the American Fisheries Society.
And I set up Jim Warren. We started to work on the disciplines in sections. We
were trying to create a fish health section. American Fisheries Society was
geographic, you know. You had a western division, a central and so on. And the
states each would have a section, chapter in those divisions. But there was nothing
for the disciplines. And the disciplines were too dilute. And so Jim and I
worked/did the changes in the constitution of the American National, American
Fisheries Society that set up the formation of discipline sections. And then when
that passed, we became the first discipline section to form under that. And so we
had the fish health section of the American Fisheries Society. And then fly fish
culture and pollution and so forth. All these started to form. And then part of our
mission was to police our ranks and to come up with standard methods. And, so
we had technical procedures committees and all that stuff, you know, and
certification board.
And they had an unassembled exam kind of thing. What their criteria, their
education and their experience. And they had to meet criteria in order to be
considered a certified inspector. And this was all part of the. So, but I actually had
done this for the most part before we ever got to, before they ever got to that;
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�because I’d done it through the council. And when it passed the council, Colorado
River Wildlife Council, it really was quite a stir because that’s the first regulations
in the country. And the Great Lakes Commission filed suit. They called and they
wanted some information. This was all of the states on the Great Lakes and
Canada. And everybody that was on the great lakes. And so they used the Great
Lakes Commission and did something very similar with little odd and end
differences depending on geography and so forth. But it was the same thing; each
state [province] in Canada ratifying a policy. And then the eastern seaboard states
followed suit and then finally the Columbia [River]: the Columbia drainage. And
so within about four years we had the biggest. We had basically the trout and
salmon of North America covered.
ET:
Wow
RG:
All starting from this. For all purposes I started what they call the drainage
concept of fish disease control. And so drainages mean a lot to me you know.
When I was taking a test after my accident, in the LDS hospital they were giving
me these little tests to find out if I was with it or not; or how I was doing. And
they wanted me to name the capitals of the states. And I just boom, boom, boom,
boom, boom, boom all the way down. And she says, “How do you do that?” Lisa
said too. She thought there’s got to be a mistake there. And I said, “No.” I said,
"I know where the drainages are. That was so much a part of who was doing
what, where and when that I never even had to think about it.” I said, boom,
boom, boom. I knew what rivers they were on there, what the drainages were and
where the capitals were.
ET:
So basically it sounds like once you got the Colorado River Wildlife Council to
read your proposal
RG:
Yea
ET:
They got right on board with it.
RG:
Yea
ET:
So you didn’t have to fight that battle that much once they read it.
RG:
No. I set up a. You say you’ve got this centered more around the tape. I’ve got a
copy of [the] resolution, very first; a resolution for their consideration. And why
we should be looking at this, you know. And they bought that. They approved that
one, that finding in ‘72.
ET:
Because there weren’t any political enemies of this policy?
RG:
No. There was more fear. They really were. That was serious business if they had
to close hatcheries, because it meant destroying the fish. You might have to
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�destroy 100,000 pounds of fish. And so, Nevada was hard. And Nevada said you
can’t close. Willow Beach had IPN virus: that big national hatchery down there
by Lake Mohave. I remember well we had a big knock-down drag out over that
too. And I said, “If we close Willow Beach we’re not going to have fish for a
season, for a whole season, which hurts. You know licensing and that type of
thing.
And so I said to them “Well so handle it. Handle it.” But I told them, “No I think
what I would like to do then, if that’s the case. Is that the only reason you’re not
going for this.” And they said, “Yea, we simply can’t. We can’t handle
destroying that many fish because we won’t have fish to satisfy our program.”
And I said, “If most of these programs are like ours, they’ve got surplus fish. And
so let’s talk to all of these seven states and they’ll, see if we can get enough
surplus fish out of all of those states to cover your needs for the loss of Willow
Beach.”
And that’s what we did. So it’s all having a heavy impact on Utah too. And you
know we destroyed for IPN we destroyed the Kamas Hatchery and destroyed the
fish: disinfected. You have to disinfect it with chlorine. You know and start over.
And we did it with Springville; we did it with Logan hatchery here and the one at
Loa. But [we] didn’t have to do them all in the same year.
ET:
So did that result in wiping out IPN?
RG:
Yea, never got it back again. And I had also been pushing for fish quality so hard
and measuring stress that I started selling the idea that it’s a game of inches. I call
it incremental degradation. Colorado says, “We call that incremental
aggravation.” And I said, “How about incremental defecation.” And we was
teaching that if the fish, the hatchery is properly managed, properly loaded and
the fish are properly handled, you’re not going to have these diseases. Even if you
have them, it won’t be too serious. We just can’t afford to have them go with that
disease out where the wild fish are going to get clobbered.
Let’s see I retired in 2000. Yea it was 2000. Then we had, we used to feed a lot
of antibiotics you know on a grand scale. And after I started that we did the
bacterial diseases and so forth. We hadn’t since 1972. Since from ‘72 to 2000 we
only used antibiotics twice in that whole, that whole period. Because it was a
proper approach and disciplined approach to the raising of fish that made the
difference. And then when they finally, the FDA started passing laws that said
you couldn’t use these drugs: antibiotics. Or you couldn’t use the stuff even to
just clean the gills up you know. And I said, “I don’t.” Boy they were afraid to
drop some of that stuff. And I said, “I don’t think you’re going to have, just keep
doing what you’re doing and you won’t have, you’re going to have a very minor
problem.” And that’s what they did. . . . But it was, we just never let up on the
game of that business you know; you can’t. And then when I went to work. When
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�I retired, Colorado asked me to come and talk to them. They had a problem with
their fisheries managers were not agreeing with, particularly whirling disease.
And I wasn’t working for Utah anymore. Eddy Coachman, who was their Chief of
Fisheries; I had never been on his Christmas card list. We were kind of enemies.
Because I’d never agree to what Eddy was doing. Anyway he’s the one that asked
me to come and talk to them, which made me suspicious; probably going to hang
me or something. But they paid the way, so I agreed to go. And for three days I
fielded questions from them. Eddy just says, “I’m gonna let you handle this.” He
says, “I’m, I have nothing left to say to them.” So I fielded a lot of really tough
questions. That’s when they said the incremental aggravation. Anyway I told
them, “You guys, you’re losing track of what, of what you’re all about.” And I
told them. And I still. And I gave this lecture to Utah a number of times too. But
I said, “We have, our mandate is to be stewards of the natural resource.
Agriculture mandate is to be stewards of commodity. Production of commodity,
they’re not always happy playmates.”
And I said, “What makes it tough for us in this business, for the state fisheries
programs, is that when you. A lot of ours is pure recreation. The rainbow trout
and stuff that we plant, that’s in a sense it’s a commodity; because we’re selling
our licenses and so forth.” But I said, “The rest of the part, the wild cut throat and
all of this stuff. All of the [?] the least chubs and the humpback suckers and stuff
like that in the Colorado.” I said, “That’s stewardship. And they hadn’t thought
about that.” And I said, “You can, you can. The further you get away from
stewardship. Over here with the rainbow, we can. There are a lot of things we can
do with the rainbow. We can put them back. But over here you can’t go out and
kill out all the cut throat because some of them are endangered species, you know.
And in fact you couldn’t even if you wanted to.” And they had not thought about
that so. I had sold all that to Utah years ago. And you’ve got, you’ve got to be
concerned. The rainbow we can do something anytime. It would be costly but we
can do it. But over here you’ve got these wild cut throat and there’s nothing we
can do. And so that’s it. You know.
ET:
So your approach with the wild fish is habitat
RG:
Habitat, yea. Habitat and making sure that if there are any fish. I also classified all
the streams in the state. And I had help from the managers to do that. And they
gave them how I wanted them ranked you know. So that would go in our
computer database so if this says you’re gonna plant more rainbow trout in
Gunnison Lake and that’s not supposed to be there, the computer will flag that.
And, so we don’t run the risk of just inadvertently putting them where we
shouldn’t.
And that had all become part of the operation. And so I say it’s hard because what
we did had an impact on the whole state and all of the fisheries. And when we
started to decide, when we wanted to say when we discovered. We didn’t know.
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�When I first got here our ideas of a cut throat trout were relatively primitive
including mine. No mine, yea mine were pretty primitive too. It’s nice to be
primitive every once in a while.
But anyway a cut throat was a cut throat was a cut throat trout you know. We
knew. We knew about the Colorado River Cut Throat and the Bonneville Cut
Throat and Bear Lake Cut Throat and so forth. But we didn’t treat it that way.
We were getting eggs out of the Yellowstone Lake. Finding a lot of Yellowstone
cut throats and then we would take a few locally. But we weren’t managing that
way. And then we discovered, we found a pure strain of Bonneville cut throats in
Trout Creek or in Deep Creek mountains on the, like on the Nevada border. And
then we were convinced they were pure, pure Bonneville cut throat. And this
point we started analyzing all the DNA and all that other stuff so we could
actually identify the Bear Lake cut throat is actually a Bonneville cut throat. And
that all is because this was, this was Lake Bonneville. And over on the other side,
it’s the Colorado River cut throat. The Colorado cut throat they call it. And, but,
so we had done so much damage through bad management and so forth. And so
the certification law added a whole new wrinkle. And so if I wanted to put, I
wanted to reclaim cut throat water through like . . . And we got a lot of streams
like that. Where the cut throat, the cut throat are. There were cut throat up in the,
really high waters. And … but you couldn’t put anything up there. You want to
start it again. Get cut throat up there. But it’s got to be the right cut throat going to
the. And it’s got to be a Bonneville cut throat going into Bonneville cut throat
water. And then we had management populations and also recreation populations.
You had to . . . that was part of the management. You often didn’t even allow
fishing. But you would use that as a source to get some of the other stuff started in
another place. But you had to have that all certified, those populations.
And it took a couple of years to certify a population. And we would do that here.
We would certify the populations. And then they were free to take eggs or fish.
Usually they would take eggs. And then move them to another drainage and let
them hatch in another whatever other stream. And, so that all became part of a
kind of a routine operation. And we’ve, we kept the Bonneville’s off just recently,
off the rare endangered species. They were, they wanted to list them as
endangered species which would have: we could kiss the management good bye
then. Because then you can’t do anything. But, that all becomes part and parcel of
that whole. And then the system that HCP: Health Condition Profile system.
That’s probably the one that I, that I’m best known for is the Health Condition
Profile. And we just call it HCP. But I used to call it autopsies. And then I found
out that’s not what I was doing. Did you know that?
ET:
Necropsies.
RG:
Do you know why?
ET:
No
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�RG:
An autopsy is of your own species.
ET:
Oh
RG:
So fish don’t autopsy themselves. So a human can autopsy another human; that’s
an autopsy. But it is necropsy. And I told them, “But fish don’t have necks. We’ll
call it necropsy.” Well they don’t have knees either. But and then I started that
and that’s. When I quit or retired I had around about a thousand of them done in
the state and I kept track of both the hatchery ones and the wild ones.
ET:
So the HCP was done on a dead fish
RG:
Yea. You would.
EG:
Okay
RG:
Yea. What it is. In an infinite population, more or less, a big population I would
have to have 20 fish. But I could, I could take from the 20 fish and say especially
if they were the same year class. I could take and I can tell what’s wrong, the
condition of the whole water with those 20 fish statistically. And I had, I had done
the program. I’ve got a book out on it. And I wrote and designed a computer
program for it. So you entered your data and it would calculate it and then type
the report form.
ET:
Wow
RG:
And so I taught that. And just, just everyone, they’re still using it. I thought
probably that it would disappear. But Lisa and I went through the lab in Seattle,
that big fisheries center they got up there. I know a lot of those people. And they
introduced me as we were going. The gal was doing some work with one of the.
And they introduced me and she says. She’s calling it the Goede index. And I
said, “You didn’t get that from me.” It supposed to be the Health Condition
Profile. And that’s, apparently that’s what they’re starting to call it: the Goede
index. And now whether it’s a big research project or what, it’s just one of their
tools. Even if you look at one fish, if you catch it up at White Pine, you can open
that fish and you can get some idea where he fits in this scheme. You know,
whether it’s something you should be worried about. And so, but I have people
tell me that I was the chief source of mortality in the states too. I sweep down
there in the north and kill all the first born and things like that once a year.
ET:
So I want to know if you have been inducted into the Fish Culture Hall of Fame.
RG:
Nope, not yet. One thing you have to do there is get someone to
ET:
Nominate ya.
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�RG:
Nominate you. I was surprised when I got in the Sneszko Award because it’s
kind of the same kind of thing but for pathologist. You know.
BC:
I met a guy in Flagstaff that nominated himself for a Pulitzer Prize.
RG:
Well someone’s got to do it.
ET:
We’re not going to have much time left on our card I think. Doesn’t this last
about an hour and a half on the high.
BC:
I don’t if you’re on the high end or not.
RG:
Is there anything that you wanted me to concentrate on.
ET:
You’re doing great.
BC:
We might have to do another session sometime.
RG:
There’s just so much.
BC:
I was sort of curious about. Tell us a little bit about Bill Sigler.
RG:
Okay. Well you’ve got the Mossback book. [Mossbacks by Ron Goede and Lisa
Duskin-Goede: Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives: 925
G551]
ET:
Well I was going to ask you. Has Lisa. Has Lisa done the Mossback’s work.
Has she, did she interview all the guys.
RG:
She interviewed them, yea. And she helped; she didn’t finish that whole study.
(That was one of those things that, what was her name? Kathy Pearcy (was it
Pearcy) in Humanities or something—for someone else. [Lisa] was doing that
when she was doing gerontology and all that stuff. She thought that would be a
good Ph.D. program.)
ET:
Well just briefly maybe you ought to mention who the Mossback’s are since we
brought it up.
RG:
Okay. But, you have, we gave you a copy of . . .
BC:
Yea, I have a copy of that.
ET:
Just mention who are the Mossbacks.
RG:
Okay. The Mossback’s were: it’s a little hard to define because it started
informally, you know, when Bill Sigler retired in 1974. And he was bummed out
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�about retiring he didn’t like that. And, so we had a kind of a get-together. A lot of
his old students got together and had a little seminar: a little symposium. Anyway
that didn’t start the Mossbacks, but it got them talking about it. Well these guys
are all, they were. The mossbacks were originally were old Bill Sigler’s, older
students. And Sigler came out of the, retired from the war, WWII. These guys
were mostly GI’s and most of them out of WW II on the GI Bill; a lot of them
combat veterans. And that was a little different, not your average college
freshman, these guys. A lot of them had things they still won’t talk about.
So anyway, we decided to get together. About three years in a row we got
together and then we just decided that you had to be in this business for a while
before you got to do this. And we call them mossbacks. Because you have to be
there long enough until you’ve got moss on your back. And but they’re, they’re
all over. They’re not just Utah though. They’re all, most of them, are from within
reasonable [distances], like Fort Collins.
McConnell was from Fort Collins. He got that second Ph.D. Bill McConnell he
taught at Colorado State until he retired. Bob Behnke wrote the book; this new
book on trout and salmon of the world: great book. And Jay Udy is in his 90s
now. And he was in mapping before the war effort: cartography and that sort of
thing. Stacy Gebhards, he was here and he’s got a number of good books out. He
was a good biology and he was Chief of Fisheries for a while for Idaho. He’s
written a book called Wild Thing: [backcountry tales and trails] it’s about his
career. He took Arthur Godfrey. There were three: Arthur Godfrey, Walter
Hickel and there was one other. He took them all on a float trip down the Salmon
River. I was kidding him. You know, Hickel was the one that said you can’t let
nature run wild.
ET:
Wasn’t he Interior Secretary?
RG:
Yea
ET:
Yea
RG:
He was Governor of Alaska too.
ET:
Alaska
RG:
Anyway. So anyway these guys, Fred Eiserman. Fred was just inducted into the
Wyoming Hall of Fame, along with Jim Bridger. I’m going wow! You’re, that’s,
isn’t he a little older than you. I said, “I don’t think I’ve met him. He is a
mossback?” No I’m serious. It’s in the, I’ve got the magazine and they had a big
ceremony. It’s a serious award. There were four people that were inducted. It’s
the Wildlife Hall of Fame or something. It’s not a Fish and Game type of thing,
but Wilderness Hall of Fame. And Fred got his degree here.
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�ET:
Fred?
RG:
Fred Eiserman and he worked for Wyoming. But Wylie is a good friend of mine
and he’s the youngest one. And Stew Clark just died. Eight of them are gone now.
So that’s one of the problems with this kind of a group. So we have every year
when one of them drops out, we have a toast. And break the glass you know. The
first year, well Sigler was still alive when Bud Phelps died. We threw the glass.
We decided to throw, just throw them in. Let’s do just like they do in the movies
and we’ll throw the glass in the fireplace. But I found out only about half of them
could hit it. We had glass everywhere, boy. It took us about an hour to clean up all
the glass. So we started putting a rock in a garbage can and we’d throw them in
the garbage can then finally.
But there is Al Regenthal: he is about 87 now. No he’s older than that. Anyway,
most of them are up there. And, I basically, when I wrote the little prologue that I
pointed out that we: one thing that occurred to us as we were doing all this. And
of course I was a part of that from the beginning. But these guys were the
vanguard of a very young profession. They were the first ones out there actually
doing some science and not just empirical wisdom. And it was kind of interesting.
They were born in the depression, tempered by war. And it was serious. Some of
them had some pretty tough times. So and they went into school probably
couldn’t have done that if it hadn’t have been for the GI Bill. Regenthal and
Essbach and McConnell all came out here together from New Jersey. And
Raganthall’s still with Utah, Arizona. Essbach went to Arizona, working for their
fish and game. And McConnell was at Colorado State teaching. And McConnell
just died.
ET:
So it sounds like your career kind of, and theirs spans the transition from folk
wisdom to scientific-based. Scientifically-based
RG:
Yea. That’s probably a good one. I haven’t used that, that’s probably a good term.
I always called it empirical wisdom. You know. Just because it, a lot of it was
empirical it wasn’t scientific. But a lot of it was good stuff. And a lot of the early
stuff before those guys was just terrible. And it was, if it was wet it was a quality
fish. So but that’s when you carp and everything else you know. So, it’s pretty
important I think. But their level, I think we were good for the, our effort was
good for . . . . And I’ve been told that several times by people who’ve retired
since. That he felt that, that our effort through the experiment station and so forth
elevated the fisheries and brought it to a different plane. And it’s hard. They
didn’t have good hatchery people. I was their technical advisory because I was
coming up with all the new stuff. But they had Chief of Hatcheries too, but the
guys didn’t know anything. And they were regional. And this was a big thing that
I changed. They were, each region like the northern region in Ogden, would have
somebody. Their Chief, their fisheries manager would be in charge of the
hatchery. It was a line staff organization. And I told them. I said, “These guys
don’t know anything about culture.”
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�So I wrote a fairly involved definition of culture. And told, let’s see Bill Geer got
to be Director at that particular time, Bill Geer was director. And I told him, “We
would like to, I would like to see you centralize the hatchery; because they’ve got
to be working for someone who actually understands hatcheries.” And so the rest
of the organization is still strictly line staff. But the hatcheries were centralized.
And then there was a Chief of Hatcheries in a Salt Lake office who came out of
the culture scenario. And then I knew a world-class fish culturist, Joe Valentine,
who was wanting out of the Fish and Wildlife Service. He already had 18 years
with them. And so, I got them to hire him. He was willing to come. Joe started
the work for them. And I liked Joe. And Joe and I got along really well. So that
was a big help too. So we, we had a good staff. And I think Utah led the way on
fish health management because nobody had that. That drainage concept really
brought the thing to the range of possibility. We’d failed many times because
there was just too many, you couldn’t draw something up for Utah that fit Florida,
you know, because it’s just a whole different ballgame. In the southeast water,
something they pump out of their basement. And here it’s the lynchpin of survival
you know. So anyway it’s very important and I felt good about it and Sigler.
I point that out in the Mossback book that one phrase he always used that I coined
is: That it was a privilege to serve. And so I . . . . there’s just a few things that I
get emotional about. And that’s where it was: a great bunch of people. And that’s
not easy to maintain that level. I don’t know if they’re at that point anymore.
ET:
When you say it was a privilege to serve. That’s sort of an old-school approach to
public service
RG:
Yea.
ET:
So you felt, you felt the weight. I’m asking I guess. You felt the weight of the
public responsibility on your shoulders?
RG:
Yea, this was our mandate to steward the natural resource. And do a decent job
of it. And a lot of the battles were just sheer ethics. You know. Yea, boy I had
some tremendous . . . Boy I remember one big battle I had with them. I got up and
left the meeting. And I still had to drive back to Logan. And I was furious. And I
said “I’ve bent over backwards to do a lot for this outfit. But I[‘ll be] damned if
I’m going to bend over forwards.”
ET:
And that was with whom?
RG:
With the fisheries staff. And then when, over whirling disease when the Leavitt’s
were, when . . . that was, those were black days.
ET:
Yea, we haven’t even talked about whirling disease.
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�BC:
Yea, we haven’t talked about whirling disease.
RG:
Oh wow. Well those were. That was the end of a lot of things. We got bad hurt
on that: a lot of people lost their jobs.
ET:
Do we need to schedule another session?
RG:
Yea I think if you’re. Because now you’re ready to really get into some of those
Things . . . There are some things there that are kind of funny too. And I even
have, I got along with the Leavitt’s and then I didn’t get along with them you
know. Dane Leavitt, the Governor’s brother [Mike Leavitt]. I like Dane. He’s a
lawyer in Cedar [City, Utah].
BC:
Did they ever try to sell insurance for the whirling disease or?
RG:
The Levitt Group. Yea, no. Mark who . . . they were always covering up for
Mark. He was the one that was screwing things up. Young Mark. And he’s one of
those guys that would always answer the phones in an important meeting and just
sit there and talk. And that just really hacks me off when people do that. And so I
called him, and I called his brother Dane in Cedar. Said, you know, “I said I want
Mark’s phone number, cell phone number.” And he was suspicious right away
because he knew I didn’t like Mark. And I told him what he was doing. And of
course that even irritated Dane. And he like that so much he set it up. He decided.
He had somebody call. I told him what I wanted is that we got a meeting on
Thursday and I want someone to call Mark at that meeting and ask for me. And so
that’s what they did. Dane set it up and Mark picked that phone up and he says,
“Hello.” And then he says, “Oh.” He says, “Oh.” He says, “Here it’s for you.”
Oh yea. I don’t know whether Mark ever found out that that was Dane.
ET:
Well let’s, why don’t we stop here. It looks like we need to talk about
whirling disease, some of your ethical battles. You want to talk more about Bill
Sigler?
BC:
I’d be curious to talk just about Logan and stuff and that.
RG:
Yea.
ET:
So we need to have another session with you I think. We don’t want to wear you
out all in one.
RG:
Yea.
ET:
Are you doing okay?
RG:
Oh yea. It’s just that. When Eisner read that little bio sketch I did for the
Mossback book he said. He said he could see. He said I could see reading that
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ron Goede, 16 October 2008
27
�BC:
that you had a calling. And it’s actually true. That idea of quality really was stuck
in doing something. And I’ve always been very public service oriented, service
oriented. I’m not interested in the other stuff. I don’t really care about the
material stuff that goes along with it, because it usually doesn’t. But anyway it
was so. It is hard to talk about that without setting that foundation.
Yea. That’s good.
ET:
That was great. This has been a great session.
BC:
I’m afraid to turn this thing off that I’ll erase it or something.
RG:
You know when we joined, when we became the. Oh! When we became the
Natural Resource, Department of Natural Resources and the Division of Wildlife
Resources under the department, that was not a happy day either. You know.
That was back in the ‘70s. Bud Phelps was Director then, and Phelps was a good
friend. And the people, the guys, all the parks and forests, everyone became part
of the . . . and there were, they shared a coffee room. It was the old DWR coffee
room. But they said, Bud said, they were sniping at each other, always just under
their breath. And Bud Phelps came out with a directive then that said, “They’ll be
no sniping in the coffee rooms.” It was a directive. And so I went out in the hall
with him and I said. “You know he used to have a wall committee. You couldn’t
put anything on the wall unless it passed the wall committee.”
BC:
We had one of those in Flagstaff.
RG:
Oh hey.
BC:
The Classics committee is what they called it out there.
RG:
Well I told Bud. “Well you know now you’re gonna have to, now your gonna
have to form a snide comment committee.” And he says, “What do you mean?”
And I said, “Well someone’s gonna have to decide in whether a snide comment
has in fact been made.” And he sat there and stared at me. And I said, See right
now you’re wondering if I’ve made a snide comment.
ET:
That’s one of the things I like about you Ron, your sense of humor.
RG:
That’s the only thing that keeps you up and running.
ET:
Well, do you have a calendar available? Do you want to try and set up another
appointment now or later?
BC:
I don’t have a calendar with me but I’m usually pretty open.
ET:
Let me grab mine.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ron Goede, 16 October 2008
28
�
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/270">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/270</a>
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Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
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2012-11-12
Dublin Core
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Title
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Ronald William Goede interviews, 16 & 28 October 2008, and transcriptions
Description
An account of the resource
In Ron Goede's first interview he talks about growing up in Nebraska, earning a bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Lincoln, joining the Air National Guard in Nebraska, attending Utah State University to earn a Master's Degree in fisheries, and his work in various fisheries throughout the United States, especially in Utah at Utah State University. In his second interview Mr. Goede talks about his work as a fish pathologist in Utah, whirling disease in fish, water stewardship, politics: his fight to get good science into the Utah fisheries and water legislation.
Creator
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Goede, Ronald William, 1934-
Contributor
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Thatcher, Elaine
Cole, Bradford R.
Subject
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Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Interviews
Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Family
Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Career in Fisheries
Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Childhood and youth
Fisheries sciences--Research--Utah--Logan River
Fisheries sciences--Research--Missouri
Goede, Ronald William, 1934---Friends and associates
Willoughby, Harvey
Morris, George
Snieszko, Dennis Stanislas
United States--Air National Guard
Doctoral students--Utah--Logan
Fishes--Diseases--Research--Utah
Fishes--Quality--Research--Utah--Logan
Fishes--Quality
Fish hatcheries--Utah--Logan
Fishery policy--Utah
Colorado River Wildlife Council
Fishery policy--United States
American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section
Sigler, William F.
Mossbacks (Club)
Whirling disease--United States
Whirling disease--Research--Utah
Whirling disease--Research--West Virginia
Utah. Division of Wildlife Resources
Utah--Politics and government
Fishery management--Utah
Trout Unlimited
Fishery research stations--Utah
Fisheries--Utah--Monitoring
Fishery scientists--Professional ethics
Utah State Agricultural College. Wildlife Dept.
Mentoring in education--Utah--Logan
Student contests--Utah--Logan--Anecdotes
Women in fisheries--Utah--Logan--History
Medium
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Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
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Nebraska
Logan (Utah)
Alaska
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Colorado River
Lostine River (Idaho)
Utah
Colorado
Kamas (Utah)
Madison River (Wyo. and Mont.)
Strawberry Reservoir (Utah)
Scofield Reservoir (Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
2000-2009
20th century
21st century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 2 Fd. 10 & Box 3 Fd. 1
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
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Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
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Sound
Format
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audio/mp3
Identifier
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FolkColl42bx2RonGoede
Date Created
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16 October 2008
28 October 2008
Date Modified
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2008-10-16
2008-10-28
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/4487ff3096af2659b596ba6b042d3ed8.jpg
857b58901f2aa8d4ab127b122886e931
Still Image
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/265">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/265</a>
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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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2011-11-02
Dublin Core
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Title
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Logan Canyon road with rock formation on the side of the road (2 of 2)
Description
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Logan Canyon, Utah. Canyon road with rock formation on the side of the road. Black and white photograph (8 x 10 in)
Creator
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Somers, Ray, 1917-
Subject
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Dirt roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs
Logan Canyon (Utah)--Photographs
Medium
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Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1890-1899
19th century
1900-1909
1910-1919
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324 05:01:15
Is Referenced By
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Inventory for the Raymond C. Somers photograph collection can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv34503</a>
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
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Raymond C. Somers photograph collection, 1865-1993, P0324
Type
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Image
StillImage
Format
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image/jpeg
Identifier
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P032450115
Date Created
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between 1890 and 1940
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1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/c668b3cb4d93b77836e6731ccac2ffc1.jpg
76fc5216a5d653c2b710e882bab41420
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/263">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/263</a>
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2011-11-02
Dublin Core
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Title
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White Pine Lake, Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1910 and 1920 (2 of 2)
Description
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White Pine Lake. Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white photograph (3 x 5 in)
Creator
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Crookston, Newell J., 1890-1976
Subject
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White Pine Lake (Cache County, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
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Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
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White Pine Lake (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
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1910-1919
1920-1929
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130 1:034
Is Referenced By
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Inventory for the Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv9026">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv90267</a>
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
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Mae Crookston Wennegren photograph collection, 1910-1920, P0130
Type
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Image
StillImage
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image/jpeg
Identifier
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P013010734
Date Created
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1910-1920
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1910
1911
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/d2a55cf2429ed5382701273930a48902.jpg
7af131fe1df93bc0e60accd3573237e4
Still Image
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/262">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/262</a>
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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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Scanned by Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library using Epson Expression 10000 scanner, 8-bit RGB, at 600 dpi. Archival file is uncompressed TIFF (600 dpi)
display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
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2011-11-02
Dublin Core
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Title
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Members of Logan Scout Troop 5 sitting on a large log on a wagon up Logan Canyon, Utah, between 1915 and 1925
Description
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Members of Logan Scout Troop 5 sitting on a large log on a wagon up Logan Canyon, Utah. Black and white (2.5 x 4 in.)
Creator
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Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)
Subject
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Log transportation--Utah--Logan Canyon--Photographs
Boy Scouts of America. Troop 5 (Logan, Utah)--Photographs
Medium
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Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
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Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1910-1919
1920-1929
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364 40:02
Is Referenced By
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Inventory for the Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album can be found at: <a href="http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746">http://uda-db.orbiscascade.org/findaid/ark:/80444/xv43746</a>
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
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Logan Boy Scout Troop 5 photograph album, 1915-1925, P0364
Type
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Image
StillImage
Format
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image/jpeg
Identifier
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P03644002
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
between 1915 and 1925
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/95f4eeaf46828ec07866ca2476836085.jpg
79b5356003aeeb3bd3d8df536d903c5d
Still Image
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<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/261">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/261</a>
Digital Publisher
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Digitized by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
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display file is JPEG2000
Date Digital
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2011-11-02
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Logan River just above First Dam at the mouth of Logan Canyon, Utah, near the Utah Power and Light Company Plant, 1920s
Description
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Logan Canyon, Utah. Views. 1920s. Site just above First Dam
near Utah Power and Light Company Plant. Black and white photograph (6 x 8 in) mounted on board
Subject
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Logan River (Utah)--Photographs
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Black and white photographs
Spatial Coverage
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Logan River (Utah)
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1920-1929
20th century
Language
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eng
Source
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Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections and Archives, Historical Photoboard Collection, A-3144
Rights
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Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Libraries Photograph Curator, phone (435) 797-0890
Is Part Of
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Historical Photoboard Collection
Type
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Image
StillImage
Format
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image/jpeg
Identifier
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A3144
Date Created
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1920s
Date Modified
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1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
Is Version Of
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Logan Canyon Reflections