1
50
2
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/14543bf93259e4823ef80bb976b0030c.mp3
3fdb21748d70982420ec86c054943f9d
http://highway89.org/files/original/2f15c9695e5c5e3b877f54072b0607e1.pdf
341343064e93ff303bacc9460407d016
PDF Text
Text
LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
William Daly Hurst
Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center in SLC, Utah
Date of Interview: 11 February 2009
Interviewer: Barbara Middleton & Thad Box
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Radio Shack, CTR-122
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Chelsea Amdal
Randy Williams, 4/23/2009; Bill Hurst; Randy Williams, 7/12/11
Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences on the Forest Service and in Logan
Canyon: Cache National Forest.
Reference:
BH = Bill Hurst
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
TB = Thad Box (Interviewer; former Dean USU College of Natural Resources
and Emeritus Professor: Range Management)
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are
not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal
papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 2: A]
BM:
This is Barbara Middleton and I am here interviewing Bill Hurst with Thad Box and we
are both here to talk on the second part of the interview with Bill Hurst. It is Wednesday
February 11th 2009; it is about 11 o’clock in the morning and we are here in Salt Lake
City, Utah. As you remember from the first tape we started off with Bill’s biographical
sketch and now we are going to start with Bill’s relationship with Logan Canyon and
where that started with the Cache National Forest. So Bill…
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
1
�BH:
I first became acquainted with the Cache National Forest when I went to Logan to enter
Utah Agricultural College in 1934. Our professor, mainly Ray Becraft, took us on a
number of field trips into Logan Canyon to study plants and the effects of grazing on the
vegetation and talk to us about forestry in general. At that time there were only four
professors in the School of Forestry. One of them was T.G. Taylor who was head of the
School of Forestry. The School didn’t have a Dean at the time. Raymond Becraft taught
range and some range related plant identification classes although we did take botany in
the Botany Department from Bassett McGuire. The other professors there at the time
were Paul M. Dunn who later became Dean when the School of Forestry was founded. A
man named McGlochlin and J. Whitney Floyd, who later became Dean, made up the
primary faculty in 1934-35. Slim Hansen, a graduate student they brought back to help
teach this rather large class of foresters that started in 1934. The Forestry School at Utah
State experienced a large increase in students in the fall of 1934, as did many other
Forestry Schools around the Country. The Civilian Conservation Camps had a lot to do
with this I believe, since many of the Camps were located within the National Forests and
young men became acquainted with the forests and the Forest Service. At any rate, that
was the faculty in the 1934-35 Forestry School. So that was my first relationship with
Logan Canyon and the Old Juniper, the monarch of the forest.
[Omits information about moose encounter from tape.]
BH:
[Later in this paper I will tell you about my first encounter with a moose which took
place in Logan Canyon.]
TB:
You mentioned being up Logan Canyon quite a bit. Did they have a normal Summer
Camp or did they just take you up in classes? How did they get you up there to
understand the land?
BH:
[Utah State had no Summer Camp at the time. Their first Summer School was held in
August of 1936 in Logan Canyon. During my freshman year,] Dr. Becraft took us on a
number of one day field trips. One day we climbed to the top of Mount Logan stopping in
each vegetative zone where our teacher explained to us how elevation influences the
vegetation in each zone. We went on a number of field trips with him. He loved the field
trips and was a really excellent teacher. I attended the first forestry summer camp at Tony
Grove in Logan Canyon in the fall of 1936. The Camp lasted about six weeks as I
remember. It was held in the old CCC Camp. I think there were about 35-36 of us. Thad,
when you were Dean, I gave you my pictures of that camp so they must be at the
University some place.
TB:
Yes. I think they are there somewhere. We’ll dig them out.
BH:
At that time, Whit Floyd was in charge of the camp. He was a pretty seasoned guy in the
University and handled a lot of different camps. Art Smith was a member of the faculty
and helped with the Summer Camp, as did Dr. D.I. Rasmussen, head of the Wildlife
Department and E.L. Stoddart head of the Range Management Department.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
2
�BM:
Bill, can I ask you a question? You mentioned the camp was in the fall of 1936? And I’m
familiar with camp being in the summer. Could you explain a little bit of how that
worked into your school year?
BH:
The Fall Quarter would start sometime after the middle of September. Summer Camp
would start sometime in August. The year I attended Summer Camp we moved directly
from Camp into the class rooms at the University. As far as I know a similar schedule
prevailed throughout the history of the Camp.
BM:
Most of you were working summer jobs and then coming off of those summer jobs right
into forestry camp?
BH:
Yes. I quit herding sheep in mid August and went directly to Summer Camp
TB:
When you were talking about the faculty you mentioned Art Smith. I’ve had other
students tell me that Art broke colts while he was teaching up there, was that true?
BH:
I wouldn’t be surprised. His uncle, who lived in Idaho; had one of the most highly prized
stallions in the State of Idaho. Art lived with his uncle I understand, so I’m sure he was
riding his horses.
TB:
I had several students tell that while he was teaching range classes he’d be breaking the
colts at the same time.
BH:
Yes, that could be true. I’ve never seen the horses with Art, but he was at ease around
horses. I’ve never seen him riding any bucking broncos however.
BM:
So after these six weeks in Summer Camp, then pretty much this crew of camp students
would start classes in the fall.
BH:
Right. And as I said, 1936 was the beginning of that program. I enjoyed summer camp.
We had a man and his wife who did the cooking. Their name was Cooley. They did the
cooking for many years at the Summer Camp. And I mean they put on a feed at every
meal.
One of the indelible memories of the camp was a truck wreck we had on the Beaver
Creek road east of Summer Camp. The Forestry School had a stake bed a one and a half
ton truck. A four and a half foot rack was in place on the truck bed. There were no seats
on the truck beds however. When traveling, the occupants would stand up holding onto
the racks. One afternoon about half of the camp students and two Professors, Whitney
Floyd and Professor Barnes, loaded in the truck to drive out about 10 miles to a study
area. The two teachers were in the cab with the driver. All of the students were in the
truck bed holding on to the racks. As we paralleled Beaver Creek, a stream laden with
willows, a couple in a red sedan came toward us from the opposite direction and failed to
yield space on the narrow road. The right hand wheels of our truck went over the edge
and the truck fell topside down into Beaver Creek. Only the willows prevented this from
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
3
�being a tragic accident. They cushioned the landing in the creek bed. However, there
were many cut faces and arms and some with body cuts. As soon as transportation was
available we were all taken to a Logan Budge Hospital [200 North and 300 East] and
examined. All but two of us, Virgil Peterson and Clyde Lowe, were returned to Tony
Grove Camp for the night. The other two remained in the Hospital for a night or two.
TB:
Did he destroy the truck?
BH:
I don’t remember; I don’t think it destroyed it because it landed in the willows also. But
the willows were thick enough that it was upside down propped up.
TB:
The reason I ask, when I started teaching Summer Camp in 1959, we had a 1936
Chevrolet truck, a green one, and two old army 6X6’s. That’s what we took the students
out in. I just wondered if that was the same truck or a replacement.
BH:
Well it could be. It could be the same truck. But that was our thrill for the day. In those
pictures that I gave you Thad, Virgil’s still had a bandage on his head.
TB:
Hum.
BM:
So in a group like that, were you mixing forestry, wildlife, range; was there a wide
assortment of students in that camp?
BH:
In that day, especially during the first two year of Collage, we didn’t consider ourselves
different. We were first and foremost students in the School of Forestry. . Most if not all
of us had taken classes together during the first two years of Collage. However, I think in
1936 they had Dr. Stoddart on board; he was head of the Range Department. And they
had Dr. Rasmussen on board and he was head of the Wildlife Department. And Paul
Dunn, I don’t think they called him a Dean yet, but he was head of the School of Forestry
Range and Wildlife, in effect the Dean. At Summer Camp, we were exposed to all of
these disciplines. The students were broken down into two or more units. Each unit
would then go to the field or class room and study one particular field. The crews would
then rotate until all had been exposed to the entire field of study.
BM:
What time did they get you up in the morning and when did the day end?
BH
As I remember, we would get up about 6:00 AM and be ready for field work or study by
8:00 AM. I think dinner was around 5:30 or 6:00PM. Lunch would be at noon. We
would take lunches to the field and this happened often.
BM:
And were there evening lectures then?
BH:
Yes, we had some evening programs but I don’t remember much about them. After a day
in the field hiking and climbing hills we were usually tired in the evening.
BM:
Is it Doc’s Hill?
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
4
�BH:
Yes, yes Doc. I’m trying to think of his name.
TB/BM:
Daniel?
BH:
Oh Doc Daniel yes. He hadn’t arrived at Utah State in 1936.
BM:
So that was Benchmark Hill.
TB:
Yes, Benchmark Hill.
BH:
Yes.
TB:
Bill, do you have recollections of what the country was like in 1936 up Logan Canyon? As far as
you mentioned range conditions that Stoddart was teaching you, as compared to what it is now or
other times in your career?
BH:
Well, no I really don’t. I really don’t. However, during that same period of time I was
herding sheep on the Dixie National Forest. I herded sheep the summer before I went to
college and the first summer after I started college. I couldn’t get a job so I herded sheep
One day I killed a mutton and checked the stomach to see what it had been eating. I
found a leaf that looked like a holly leaf. I can’t think of the name of that plant now. It
was a heavy leaf with little prickly around the edges
BM:
Like an Oregon grape?
BH:
Yes. Well, something like an Oregon grape.
BM:
Utah Holly maybe.
BH:
Yes, it looked like an Oregon grape or holly. However, on the chart then being used by
range survey crews the plant had no palatability whatever. A few days after I had killed a
mutton and found an Oregon Grape leaf in its stomach, here comes the range survey crew
of guys I knew. They came in to have dinner with me. We got to talking about what’s
palatable and what isn’t. I think it was Oliver said “Well, they won’t eat this and they
won’t eat that,” and so forth. He pointed to the little holly plant and said “They won’t eat
that.” I said “I’ll bet you they will.” Then I showed him the leaf taken from the sheep’s
stomach. We had a good laugh over this and agreed the sheep made a mistake when it ate
the Oregon grape leaf. So we were thinking about what’s palatable and what isn’t in those
days. My sheep herding experience served me well after I got into the Forest Service.
BM:
How so?
BH:
Well, I learned what livestock could do if not properly taken care of and what the herder
had to do to protect both the sheep and the land they were using. I learned that it wasn’t
easy to get even utilization of the country. And I learned that herding sheep isn’t a lazy
man’s job. With only one herder with the sheep it’s a 24 hour a day responsibility.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
5
�I gathered plants when time permitted and identified and pressed them. I carried a plant
book with me most every day and had a plant press in my camp.
Through the sheep herding experience I gained a better appreciation of the problems of a
stockman. I think that helped me more than anything else. Their [stockman] life isn’t an
easy one.
Now to go back to Thad’s question of comparing what land looked like in 1935 to what it
is today. To attempt to answer this question I’m going back to my sheep herding days in
Southern Utah where I did make an eyeball sixty year comparison at the request of the
Supervisor of the Dixie National Forest, Hugh Thompson. To quote from my Memoirs
which were completed at the end of the year 2000 [A life Recalled: Memoirs of William
Daly Hurst by Williams Hurst.]
On July 17, (1995) VerMon Barney (my Brother in Law) and I trailered
horses to Castle Valley to spend two days riding with Supervisor Hugh
Thompson, Ranger Ron Wilson and Range Staff Officer Dale Harris on
the Houston Mountain where I herded sheep the summers of 1935 and
1936. Our ride took us to the old Jenson Sawmill on Houston Mountain, a
mill that operated in the very early part of the century and perhaps before.
After sixty years, I believe there is more grass in the dandelion cover and
more fir in the aspen stands. The country looks beautiful, as it did 60 years
ago. The ground cover is now probably better. A herd of sheep were
grazing in the area during our visit. We located my name on an aspen tree
dated 8/1/36.
On July 18, 1995 we were joined by Ranger Wilson and Range
Conservationist Randy Houston. Our day’s ride took us over Dry Valley
and onto Blue Springs Mountain. The complexion of Blue Springs
Mountain has changed because of logging roads. I feel certain however
there is more fir in the aspen stands. The young firs are less than 60 years
old so most of them have come in since I worked there. The country is still
beautiful and in good ecological condition. After my two day ride I felt
good about the management the area has received. I rode Diamond, my
former saddle horse, on both days of the ride.
My personal opinion of the area is this: When the area was first grazed
with domestic livestock, probably in the 1880s it was used by both sheep
and cattle and probably heavily grazed. This resulted in depletion of the
original grass stand which was replaced by dandelion. In 1936 dandelion
occupied almost 100 percent of the ground. Once over by sheep and the
ground was bare. Subsequent lighter use has permitted the grass to slowly
return. Very early fires, of which there is now little evidence, could have
removed the original forest and replaced it with aspen. That fir is now
replacing the aspen there is little doubt. Regardless of what happened in
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
6
�the past, in my eyes, the area is healthy today and still supporting sheep
and wildlife plus a charming landscape.
In closing this subject on sheep herding days I would like to quote from my Memoirs a
paragraph about my faithful companions, the mule Jody and the dog Pal.
Jody could be either ridden or packed. I used him mainly to pack, since
Luke was much better to ride. Luke was a very good saddle horse. Jody
had the patience of Job. One day I had my camp on him and was in the
process of moving to a new location. For a reason I no longer remember, I
was interrupted in the moving process and had to leave Jody tied to a tree
for a couple of hours. On returning, Jody was in approximately the same
place under the tree but the pack was under his belly. In fact, the top of the
pack was resting on the ground. This didn’t seem to bother Jody at all. He
just patiently awaited my return. Many times over the years, I’ve wished
some of my mules and horses to, had a disposition more like Jody.
The dog Pal was also incredible. He continually amazed me. Besides
being wonderful company and providing me with a sense of security both
night and day, he would on command, go around a herd of sheep as far as
the eye could see. Best of all I felt confident that he had gotten them all.
TB:
At the danger of messing up Barbara’s tape, I’m going to ask you a question because now
most of our students come from cities, have none of this experience. Do you have any
ideas of what the modern day natural resources or Forestry College, how can they teach
these things to their students?
BH:
I don’t know. Very few in my day had the experience I had. But it’s an important
experience. I believe that the three years I spent with the Hatch Brother’s Ranch paid big
dividends in my career with the Forest Service.
TB:
You mentioned that most, or many of the students at your time, didn’t have that
background with livestock, did Summer Camp help fill them in? Or where did they learn?
I know a lot of them went on to be distinguished foresters, they must have learned
something somewhere.
BH:
The reason I feel that my experience with ranch and farm activities paid off is because of
the positions the Forest Service selected me to fill. From Assistant Ranger through
Regional Forester the jobs were heavily range and wildlife management orientated as was
my position in the Washington Office of the Forest Service. I’m sure most people in the
organization didn’t know of my earlier experiences but some did. And most important of
all, my earlier experiences made me feel more comfortable in the jobs I was selected to
fill. Many farm and ranch raised forestry students, such as Ed Cliff and Basil Crane, did
very well in the Forest Service as did others in land management agencies as well.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
7
�TB:
Well, unfortunately none of us can answer that. We’re still arguing that in education now
how to teach the practical things to our students.
BH:
Yes.
BM:
Well, and also the transference from what happens at field camp into the classroom for
that whole academic year. And when you think about that—what did you take from field
camp that you bridged into the classroom?
BH:
Well, we learned how to survey land for example. We learned what fish were eating by
catching a fish and examining stomach contents. We learned how to mark timber of
different species and how to determine forage utilization by cattle and sheep. We learned
how to use portable radios and how to fight forest fires among many other things
TB:
You mentioned you had on snowshoes when that moose chased you up a tree. Was that
an assignment or just you?
BH:
Oh no.
[Tape 1 of 2: B]
BM:
Bill Hurst [continuing from tape one side A].
BH:
Dr. George Kelker’s Wildlife Management class was on a one day field trip in Logan
Canyon during the winter. We were between Tony Grove Ranger Station and Tony
Grove Lake. The snow was deep and we were all wearing either skis or snowshoes; I was
wearing snowshoes. When we reached the area Dr Kelker had chosen for study we broke
up into smaller groups each assigned to a different area. My partner was Virgil Peterson.
He was wearing skis. In the vicinity of a lake (the name of which I don’t remember), we
crossed some huge tracks.
TB:
Pipeline Lake?
BH:
Perhaps, but I really don’t remember, But we crossed large tracks. Dr. Kelker said “That
looks like a moose to me.” Neither of us had ever seen a moose so we continued on our
way. Virgil and I walked into an opening in the aspen and there he stood. [Laughing]
That’s when we took the snowshoes and skis off and climbed a tree. In a minute or two
the moose left and we went on our way. We saw that moose again the same day on the
plowed out Logan Canyon highway near Tony Grove. A week or two earlier Art Smith,
Ben Haywood and J. Lowe Sevy, all Wildlife Management students from Utah State, had
seen, what we think was the same moose, swimming in Bear Lake, from east to west.
.
BM:
Well, now you mentioned boys in that moose story. Where were the girls?
BH:
There weren’t any girls.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
8
�BM:
No girls in Summer Camp?
BH:
No, there were no girls in forestry school at that time. The enrollment in the Forestry
School was large but I remember no girls.
TB:
The first women went to Summer Camp in the summer of 1970, but that’s another story.
BM:
Well, let’s look at some other relationships with Logan Canyon as far as school. You
were talking about some field trips and Summer Camp as far as the time period that you
stayed up there and you explored around. When you graduated from Utah State, did you
leave northern Utah for awhile?
BH:
Yes. I left Logan for the summer of 1937 and worked until October on the Grantsville
Division of the Wasatch National Forest near Grantsville, Utah. After my senior year,
1937-38 at Utah State I returned to this same job in May 1938 and remained connected
with the Wasatch National Forest until June 1941. In the summertime, I would be
working on the Grantsville Unit. During the winter I worked in various timber jobs on the
Kamas and Evanston Ranger Districts of the Wasatch National Forest. During the pre
World War II years the Forest Service operated on a very lean budget. A couple of times
I was placed on furlough during the winter months. One winter I worked a couple of
months at a sawmill before being put back to work with the Forest Service.
BM:
Where was this?
BH:
It was down there.
BM:
In the Ashley?
BH
No, it was in southern Utah where I was raised. My cousin was a Barber and had major
interest in a Ford Motor Company. He also had a small sawmill which wasn’t in
operation. Railroad ties were in demand so a group of us put the sawmill in operation and
sawed railroad ties. I went with the sawmill for a couple of months acquiring an up
graded automobile and a little cash.
BM:
Well, and different in that you also have those certain time of year where you’re always
going to be laid off.
BH:
No, this just applied to those who didn’t have a permanent appointment with the Forest
Service and at the time I didn’t
BM:
So how did you get to the Logan Ranger District?
BH:
I worked as an Assistant Ranger and District Ranger after I left school. In the latter job
we lived about four years in Manila, Utah. I then served in the Army for two years
spending one year in Japan at the end of WWII. After being released from the military
the Forest Service assigned me to the Cache National Forest in Logan, Utah as Staff
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
9
�Officer to the Forest Supervisor. At that time the Forest Service was in the process of
purchasing Wellsville Mountain and adding it to the National Forest System. That’s the
big mountain out west of Logan.
BM:
And what was going on in Wellsville Mountain that they wanted to incorporate it into the
National Forest?
BH:
Wellsville Mountain is a big beautiful mountain that was outside the National Forest and
had been heavily used by livestock, particularly sheep. Accelerated erosion was common
in many of the drainages. In the mid 1930s I believe, Congress placed the entire mountain
within the National Forest System and authorized the Forest Service to purchase the land
from the private land owners.
The governor of Utah at the time, [Henry Hooper] Blood appointed a committee to look
into the cause of the floods. One of the people he appointed was George D. Clyde, Dean
of the School of Engineering at Utah State Agricultural College, who later became
Governor of Utah. Another was Reed Bailey, a Geologist and later became Director of
the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station. Another was A.R. Croft, a soil
scientist I think, from Utah State Agricultural College. He joined the Forest Service and
stayed with them until retirement. I think there were two more on the Committee whose
names I’ve forgotten. These five men were all very talented people. They studied the mud
rock flood problem and wrote several bulletins on the subject. Convincing evidence led
the Committee to the conclusion that denuding the high elevations of a watershed and
exposing it to torrential rains was the root cause of the problem. Furthermore, overuse by
domestic livestock caused the loss of the protective vegetation. When these watersheds
were perched above high population centers they posed a real threat to the population and
property below.
During my stint on the Cache National Forest I carried this program forward under the
direction of the Forest Supervisor. A substantial part of my work in the Watershed field
was in land appraisal and land acquisition. During my three and one half years on the
Cache National Forest I also became well acquainted with Logan Canyon through
assignments I had there particularly in range and recreation management.
BM:
Can I ask before you move on to range, could you talk a little bit about what it was like
working on this acquisition and this Wellsville initiative?
BH:
Yes.
BM:
Well, you know what’s interesting to me is you are saying that, and you’ve used the word
several times, that the public demanded that the federal government come in and do
something.
BH:
They did. They pushed us hard on it. And it’s interesting to note that really the National
Forest (now I’m stepping back now in time oh 30 years or more), many of the National
Forests in the United States were created not for the timber but for the water they
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
10
�produced. There was damage being done to streams and springs and it wasn’t so much
mud rock floods as it was the consequence of excessive animal concentration around and
in the water people depended on to sustain their lives.
TB:
I want to ask a little bit more about this Wellsville Mountain. It’s my understanding that,
and it may have been before your time, in the early days the local people actually raised
funds to buy land to give to the Forest Service and that the county commission was
actually behind the acquisition. Is that true?
BH:
It is true and not too far back either. I have seen petitions in the Cache National Forest
files wherein people petitioned the Forest Service to purchase watershed lands above
their communities to protect their water supplies. This was also done at an early date in
the history of the Forest Service for watershed land on the Manti National Forest in
Central Utah. At a later date petitions from people in Ogden, Utah and other communities
and from people around the Wellsville Mountain resulted in efforts that have placed
thousands of acres under federal control. The Weber County Watershed Protective
Association and the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association were both the
results of local people’s action to secure protection of their watersheds. A.G. Nord,
former Supervisor of the Cache National Forest was instrumental in achieving federal as
well as local support for watershed programs in the intermountain area.
To pursue Thad’s question of public involvement in the watershed land acquisition
program and the role the public played in this effort, I think it would be worthwhile for
Barbara or one of her staff to review the files of the two private organizations deeply
involved. One was the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association which
once was head-quartered in Brigham City, Utah and the other, the Weber County
Watershed Protective Association which had its offices in Ogden, Utah.
If pursued, I suggest starting in the Forest Supervisors Office of the combine CacheUinta-Wasatch National Forest in Provo, Utah. Perhaps they can tell you where the files
are located.
A discussion of land acquisition and watershed management on the Cache National
Forest as well as other locations wouldn’t be complete without recognizing the positive
role Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson played in this effort. The Secretary was a
Republican, a party opposed to the expansion of federal ownership. The Secretary on the
other hand supported public ownership on land that was serving a public need. Under his
leadership the political aspects of land acquisition were substantially diminished. He also
supported the Forest Service in many other ways all of which I thought furthered the
cause of conservation.
BM:
So with you working on the Wellsville issue and you’re, I’m assuming, meeting with the
public to understand what’s going on. What other kinds of issues are going on the Cache
Forest at the time?
BH:
We did meet often with the Watershed Associations mentioned above. We also kept in
close touch with other watershed activities In addition to the land exchange work on
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
11
�Wellsville Mountain and in the Ogden River watershed, there was an active land
exchange effort underway with the Deseret Land and Livestock Company on the
southeast side of the Cache National Forest. Much of the land owned by this Company
was situated in a checker board fashion over a vast area. The intermingling land was in
large part National Forest land. Both parties agreed that it would be in the best interest of
all concerned if the scattered land could be consolidated. The land would fare better also.
Accomplishing the consolidation would take time both on the part of the rancher and the
Forest Service. I’m not sure that it has yet been completed.
The Deseret Land and Livestock Company was formally owned by the Mormon Church.
I believe it was during the period of which we speak. It is now in private ownership. The
Church also owned a Ranch in Skull Valley on the west side of the Stansbury Mountain.
While in Church ownership it once was used as a sanctuary for a Leprosy colony.
BM:
And the objective of getting rid of the checkerboard ownership was what?
BH:
Was to create conditions more favorable to management both from the standpoint of the
private land owner and the Forest Service. It is difficult to manage 640 acres of range
land when it is surrounded by land of another ownership. So there were benefits to be
gained by both parties that was getting out of Logan Canyon but that was the work I had
to do.
BM:
So you met with the Deseret folks at the time and you looked at different value and
trading parcels?
BH:
Most of my work on this case was independently done. Our District Ranger, Clark
Anderson, was active in identifying land that would be most beneficial to acquire as well
as land that could be disposed of with least impact on National Forest interests. My two
primary contacts were with the Ranch Manager, Dan Freed and their Attorney who had
his Office in Salt Lake City, Laurence McKay. I didn’t meet with them too often. I think
Thad knew Dan Freed. Thad, Dan and I were active members of the Society for Range
Management.
The Deseret Land and Livestock Company eventually went private. Except for
occasionally meeting with their attorney and Dan Freed, I didn’t spend a lot of time with
the Deseret Land and Livestock Company; although all of the acquisition cases would
clear my desk before going to the Forest Supervisor for approval.
TB:
Just when you were making exchanges like that, how much did current condition enter
into your thinking? And how much potential? How did you reconcile those two? Say one
block of land was, had been really abused and the other was in pretty good shape. And
they both had similar potential, how did you [evaluate it]?
BH:
I don’t think we took current condition into consideration. I didn’t in land I personally
appraised.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
12
�TB:
That was my impression.
BH:
Yes. The senses of values were quite interesting. A fellow well along in years, who lived
in one of those little communities on the west side of Wellsville Mountain, came to the
Supervisor’s office and told us he had a section (640 acres) of land on Wellsville
Mountain which he wanted the Forest Service to have. We told him we would like to
have it, that we would appraise the property and get back to him. I did the appraisal on
this property and it came out to about $10.00 per acre. This was in the late 1940s. After
my Supervisor’s approval I went back to the man’s home and gave him the results of our
appraisal. He insisted that $10.00 per acre was too much. We finally settled for $l.00 per
acre. He really wanted his land to become a part of the National Forests.
[Tape 2 of 2: A]
BM:
This is tape two with Bill Hurst and side one. Ok, we are continuing with tape two and
we are talking with William Hurst and we have Thad Box with us. And I posed the
question based upon the Wellsville acquisition in terms of the nature of public perception
and this idea that the public approaches the Forest Service to want to have their lands
either sold to or donated to the Forest Service. And I wonder if you could give us a little
more of a context for that in terms of the public views of the Forest Service and that
relationship.
BH:
There are several areas in the Intermountain Region that I’m acquainted with where land
was placed in public ownership [chimes] with the support of the local people; in fact in
some cases, it was the request of the local people. The Wellsville Mountain is a case in
point. However, long before that, back in the early history of the Forest Service, some of
the Cache National Forest was placed in public ownership at the request of local people.
They weren’t thinking about using it for timber or for recreation or grazing. They were
thinking about it from the standpoint of maintaining healthy watersheds. And I think that
the watershed issue was the driving force behind the creation of not a majority, but a
substantial part of the National Forest system.
Even though the public in general supported the movement, both early on and in later
years, to expand the National Forests or manage those in existence to enhance water
supplies, strong leadership was required. In the case of the Wellsville Mountain this
leadership came through the Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association with
Robert Stewart of Brigham City at its helm supported by a capable Board of Directors
from Cache and Box Elder Counties. In Weber County the watershed movement was
directed by a citizens group under the name Weber County Watershed Protective
Association with Julian Heppler at its head. Both groups had authority to buy and sell
land within their area of responsibility and they often did with the Forest Service being
the purchaser when money was available. This arrangement made it possible to take
advantage of land sale opportunities which might otherwise be lost. During this period of
time, the 1940s, the annual appropriation to Cache, Weber and Box Elder Counties was,
as I remember, only $120,000. Despite this modest amount the Corporations seemed to
find ways through donation to keep an energetic land acquisition program going.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
13
�BM:
But the debt that those two corporations then [had] that you are talking about, the debt
incurred, could that have gone on until the forest had enough money.
BH:
Yes, it’s maybe still going on. Yes, they carried over, but it was the Associations that
made this possible. The transactions didn’t get into government funds at all. The
Corporations would buy the land and then donate or sell it to the Forest Service
BM:
But the primary concern of these watershed corporations was the protection of the cities
from the mud fl, it could be stated that way, or the primary objective of the corporations
was to get this land into government ownership, so they could manage it.
TB:
I think one of the reasons you asked “why did this happen?” There was in a number of
communities that had people there that [were] old enough to have seen what it was and
how it had been deteriorated and how it was stripped off. And it was really amazing how
denuded these lands were. You can look at some of the old pictures there and you can’t
find a sprig of grass or anything. And so there were a number of citizens in almost every
community along the mountains that became concerned. Bill said that the mountain had
come sliding down on them. But I don’t think it was totally the fear, it was that they
could just remember it, that the land had been better than that. And so they wanted
somebody to take care of it, and they knew that each little individual land owner couldn’t.
The Forest Service was a mechanism that could do it.
BH:
They wanted the Forest Service to manage the land. Now there was opposition to this
from certain factions of the public. For instance, some in the livestock industry didn’t like
the general idea of public ownership of range land. However, in some cases it was the
livestock people who joined with the movement to place critical watershed lands under
public jurisdiction
TB:
Another reason that there was, I think, considerable public support, was that most of the
land wasn’t fenced in individual plots, it was open.
BH:
Yes, it was open.
TB:
It was open. And so it was essentially a commons that anybody that had livestock could
turn them out on that area. So even if you were a land owner and had a 40 acre plot or
something up there, you had no way of really using it.
BH:
Right, no way protecting it. That’s a good point.
BM:
Thanks for the clarification.
BH:
Those two Watershed Protective Associations mentioned earlier, may yet be in existence.
They did a wonderful job when they were active. Their support went far beyond the
communities they served.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
14
�TB:
I’m glad you brought this up Barbara because this is a good model that we ought to be
looking at in public/private cooperation. Where the private citizens decide they want
something done, and then form a cooperation to contact a government agency and then
get it done.
BH:
Yes they did. In my opinion, it would have been difficult if not impossible for the
government to acquire the critical watershed land in the Weber River drainage and the
Wellsville Mountain without the two Watershed Associations. Their reach was wide and
it extended into some deep pockets
BM:
It was demonstrating effort too from the public. When you think of a huge federal entity
like the Forest Service and how it’s growing at that time. For local communities to feel
like they have some kind of public input, you know, this is way pre NEPA. So the kinds
of input that they could have, and working on that partnership, as a way to either move
land through into ownership or move money or especially, importantly, the protective
management of that landscape. I mean that must have been a tremendous feeling to have
that kind of connection with Washington.
TB:
What I would like Bill to comment: in those days before the Forest Service wasn’t just
something in Washington (we were fighting Washington) they knew Bill Hurst, who was
down on Main Street in Logan Utah. They knew that the Forest Service personnel stayed
in one place, a good amount of time, they got to know the people and the people know
them. They were part of the community. So the local people, when they started forming
these corporations, weren’t necessarily working with the big bureaucracy in Washington,
they were working with people that they knew.
BH:
Yes, the people in the two Watershed Associations were well acquainted with Forest
Service people and had a good understanding of the Forest Service’s mission. The
Associations were holding public meeting semi-annually in communities like Brigham
City, Ogden and Logan to keep people informed of their activities and to get feed-back
from the public. Of equal importance, the Associations wanted to know what the people
were thinking. These meetings were usually well attended too.
BM:
You know one of the things that I read in your memoir, and I wish you would expound
on it a little bit when you talk about this relationship with the public, you mentioned
actually going out and riding and spending days out on the forest on horseback, with
other staff, but also with the public, some of the land users. I think some of them were
sheep herders and there may have been cattle people too. But you talked about that
relationship, how important that was, and that was something that was, I think you said
established with the nature of the way activities needed to be done in your District Office.
Could you talk a little bit more about that and with the Forest Service in Cache [National
Forest]?
BH:
A long time before I started, the Forest Service had on the Forest level, Livestock and
Timber Associations whom they would meet with annually or semi-annually to discuss
problems or situations of mutual concern. Later, multiple use associations were created
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
15
�on many National Forests. Their purpose, of course, was to facilitate the transfer of
information between the Agency and the public and visa-versa. Such organizations are
not uncommon today. I think they’re probably more active now than they were back in
the period we are talking about. The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960 has
probably broadened the scope of discussion.
In that regard I’d like to refer to Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson. He was
writing a letter to members of a Cattle Association whose grazing permit had been
reduced. His reply was very interesting. He explained the mission of the Forest Service
and then he went on to say something like this “the National Forests are not timberman’s
lands, they are not the recreationalist lands, they are not the water user’s lands, they are
not the cattleman’s lands they are public lands belonging to all the people of the United
States and must be managed with this fact in mind. The Secretary had it right.
TB:
Bill, you were Washington staff along about that time. When the Secretary writes a letter
today he has dozens of speech writers, drafters and so on. That letter for instance, how
did the Forest Service input get into the Secretaries’ letter then? Did you write the letter?
BH:
No I worked on it.
TB:
I suspected that. [Laughing]
BH:
I worked on it but others did also. The statement on “who the land belonged to” came
from the Secretary. He didn’t pussy-foot around when stating his opinion. While I
worked on a number of letters which he signed the Secretary usually discussed them in
the formative stage with the Chief or Deputy Chief who was Ed Cliff. The Secretary was
very fond of both men. I did accompany Mr. Benson when he met with some livestock
interests in the field and took him on a five day fishing and sightseeing trip into the High
Uinta Primitive Area. In my opinion he was a great man and an excellent horseman. As a
fisherman he wasn’t so hot. So I put him on a lake where he couldn’t miss. In later years
my Grandson would say, “Grandpa taught the Prophet to fish.” In the Mormon Church
the Church President is our Prophet.
BM:
Well, a question I have for you is: do you remember a favorite place in Logan Canyon?
BH:
Logan Canyon is all special to me. It’s a beautiful canyon. The stream is just
unprecedented. I do remember a couple of incidents about Logan Canyon though, that
always impressed me. One of them had to do with the stream itself. The Bureau of Public
Roads wanted to upgrade a portion of the road through the canyon. That was, I think the
time you [Thad Box] were at Utah State and I was in the Ogden Office of the Forest
Service. The Bureau of Public Roads hadn’t at that time come around to recognize the
value of streams and what might damage them. They wanted to build a road where it was
the least expensive and the best alignment from the standpoint of automobile traffic. On
the other hand, the Forest Service and the University people, led by Dr. L. A. Stoddart
wanted the stream to have first priority. I should also mention Dr. D. I. Rasmussen. He
and the entire Forestry School faculty were deeply involved. They wanted the road to go
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
16
�where it would have the least impact on the stream, but still make an acceptable road
through the canyon. This developed into a first class battle between the Bureau of Public
Roads being on one side and the Forestry School faculty and the Forest Service on the
other. Eventually the latter prevailed. The decision was a popular one with the public as
well.
TB:
The publication that came out of that “Road Construction and Resource Use” is the only
paper that I know of that every faculty member in the College of Natural Sources signed
up on. I mean in the whole history of it. And it started as you say, with L.A. Stoddard and
Jess Lowe went up the Canyon to go fishing one day and found a bulldozer parked in the
river where they were going to fish. And they came back down and got a hold of Dean
Turner and said “We got to do something about this.” And so they got the whole faculty
together and we had meetings, and I was just a young guy on the faculty there. But we
had a number of meetings and came out with that publication. And like you say, there
was a battle there. And it’s still going on.
BM:
What’s the time period you are talking about?
TB:
This is about 1960 as I recall that that publication came out.
BH:
It was somewhere between 1958 and 1962. But I’ll tell you, the Forest Service was sure
glad to win this one. It posted a sign that all road construction interests paid attention to.
[Tape 2 of 2: B]
BM:
We are on tape two, side two with Bill Hurst and Thad Box.
BH:
In reading this you must remember this road issue stretched over two or more years. It
didn’t happen while I was on the Cache National Forest. I was in the Regional Office at
the time as was Dr Rasmussen.
TB:
I think there’s a point here that it is important to get, whether we are talking about the
Wellsville or Logan Canyon, it’s important if there’s a problem that people see and agree
on. And the Forest Service and the University have no problem coming together to study
Logan Canyon and the river; if they say that there’s a common problem. And you don’t
worry about budgets, you don’t worry about personnel, you just go out and do the job.
BH:
Yes. That’s right.
BM:
And the perception of the public at that time too, of these two agents working together.
Can you tell a little bit about that?
TB:
Well, the perception of the public, I was just a young faculty member then and don’t
remember. But the public mostly wanted that road constructed.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
17
�BH:
Oh, yes. The public definitely wanted the new road. However, I don’t believe they
realized the impact it would have on Logan River if constructed to the original design.
TB:
I think if you’d put it to a vote, the Forest Service and the University would have lost
because people wanted to drive faster over to Bear Lake. It was something that was going
against public opinion at the time.
BH:
I agree; there is no question about it. And that’s the case on so many issues that come up
when public land is involved. There’s a certain group that’s really pushing and their voice
seems overwhelming until you expose the entire picture. Then, if your position is logical,
it changes and sometimes radically. I think most everyone now appreciates more than
ever the value of Logan River, values that would have been lost had the road been built
just to accommodate speedy automobiles.
Well, one other point of interest that took place in Logan Canyon more recently was the
Range Wars of the 1950s. The Forest Service reduced the amount of grazing by 20
percent on the Logan Canyon Cattle Allotment. At the same time there were reductions
being made on other National Forests in the Region. While many people applauded the
actions of the Forest Service many did not. The Forest Services actions were appealed in
a number of cases in both Utah and Idaho, some of them going to the Secretary of
Agriculture for a final decision.
The primary issue was the question of what land on the National Forests could be grazed
in a way that was compatible with other resources on or adjacent to the land being
grazed. The issue boiled down to a determination on each grazing unit (allotment) of the
land that could be grazed on a sustained program without damaging other important
values. The term “suitable” was selected to describe such land. Other regions in the
Forest Service were using the word “useable.” This word was unsatisfactory in our
opinion because most land can be used by livestock if other values are ignored. Our
definition of “suitable range land” was, “Land which can be grazed on a sustained basis
without damage to the area itself or to adjacent areas.” With this definition being applied
the issue of suitability became the crux of the grazing problem. It was decided this issue
was worthy of a research effort. We welcomed this as did Utah State University and
many in the livestock industry. Wayne Cook from the School of Natural Resources at
USU was especially supportive as was Weldon Shepherd of the Research Branch of the
Forest Service. Logan Canyon was chosen as the location for the research project. Ralph
Crowell, Supervisor of the Cache National Forest and Wayne Thorne, Director of
Research for USU would provide direction for the research. Wayne Cook from the
School of Natural Resources, USU and Weldon Shepherd, Director of Range Research
for the Intermountain Forest and Range Experiment Station would design the program
and give direction to its application. The Forest Supervisor, Ralph Crowell, appointed
Hallie Cox to represent him on his study committee. The Committee and the range
management scientists who helped them, put in about two years on the study of rangeland
suitability for livestock grazing. When the studies were completed the issue of suitability
seemed to evaporate. It is my opinion that people on both sides of the issue were
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
18
�convinced that the cost of capturing the forage in an acceptable way from these difficult
to reach or sensitive areas was far greater than the benefits gained.
BM:
So did suitability then become more of a policy?
BH:
Yes, in Region 4 [Forest Service ‘regions’] they still use the term “suitability.” But in
Region 3 where I later worked, I could never get them to use the term.
TB:
You couldn’t?
BH:
No, I couldn’t. The Chief’s Office used the term “useable” rather than “suitable” and it
had become so ingrained in their thinking and in their instruction that it is difficult to
change. I believe the use of the term “useable” is one of range management’s major
problems. A cow goes where she has to go to get her belly full. She has no concern for
the damage she might cause in getting there.
TB:
Well, I learned something. I thought it [suitability] was in common use everywhere.
Because I came in right at the end of what Bill is talking about. I got my appointment
right at the end of that study. And all the classes I taught, I used suitability. And it’s in
their text book and I thought it was the widely used term now. I didn’t know Region three
still or Region four.
BH:
Well, I believe Region 3 still uses the term “useable” while Region 4 uses the term
“suitable” which in my opinion is by far the most descriptive of the message the user is
trying to convey. I think I understand Thad’s frustration also. He came into an area where
“suitable” was the acceptable term and one he was most apt to pick up.
TB:
So the basic argument was that suitability is a subjective thing. It depends on the three of
us here. We would each have a different opinion. Or usability, you could measure. But I
don’t buy that. As a policy of directive and I think suitability makes a lot more sense.
BH:
Yes, “suitability” is much more acceptable in my opinion.
BM:
Does suitability eventually have criteria?
BH:
Yes, it has criteria.
BM:
. . . that soil and water and re-growth and vegetation …
BH:
Yes. Suitable for grazing means the forage on the land can be harvested by livestock
under a level of management the livestock owner can afford, without unacceptable
damage to other resource values The ‘adjacent areas’ is critical in the definition because
that means the areas that are otherwise suitable for use can not be reached without
unacceptable damage to other areas of land.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
19
�TB:
To answer your question more specifically, the criteria and standards were developed by
individual agencies. So they would differ and I’m finding out that even within them, the
agency, and the society for Range Management has tried a time or two to try to get a
standard criteria across all the private and public lands, and they haven’t been able to do
it.
BM:
That’s interesting. Alright, we are going to end this tape today. It’s about 2:30 [PM] on
Wednesday, finishing the interview with Bill Hurst. To be continued.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (2)
Page
20
�
http://highway89.org/files/original/2d91a674268b6fda189b31097293174c.mp3
327a305adc5052d9eab210fc2fbee3c5
http://highway89.org/files/original/8dbcab859972dcec96cc98d5ccab4eb4.pdf
cefb28e8ef37235dbabff71707d5b4db
PDF Text
Text
LOGAN CANYON ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
William Daly Hurst
Place of Interview: Bill Hurst’s Room, Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center; SLC, Utah
Date of Interview: 16 April 2008
Interviewer: Barbara Middleton
Recordist:
Barbara Middleton
Recording Equipment:
Radio Shack Cassette Tape Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Chelsea Amdal
Randy Williams (4/15/09), Barbara Middleton (4/24/09), Bill
Hurst, Randy Williams (7 July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: Bill Hurst’s experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where
his father was the forest ranger; his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah
State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon.
Reference:
BH = Bill Hurst
BM = Barbara Middleton (Interviewer; Interpretive Specialist, Environment &
Society Dept., USU College of Natural Resources)
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets. Mr. Hurst reviewed the transcript and made a few changes; however, these changes are
not indicated, so the transcript and the tape may not match at all times. Mr. Hurst’s personal
papers are located in USU’s Special Collections MSS 362.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 2: A]
BM:
We are here on Wednesday, April 16th [2008]. My name is Barbara Middleton; I am one
of the interviewers for the Logan Canyon Land Use & Management Oral History Project
of Utah State [University]. And we [Thad Box and Barbara] are here visiting with Bill
Hurst at the Cottonwood Creek Retirement Center and we are in his room which is just
full of Forest Service memorabilia and artifacts and we are here to capture some of his
stories from the Logan Ranger District as well as some of the other areas. We’ve got
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
1
�about thirty minutes on this first side and then we will stop and take a lunch break and
come back and continue. So you are going to be my timekeeper Bill. Ok?
BH:
Ok.
BM:
What I’m going to have you do is introduce yourself with your full name and your birth
month and year and tell us where you were born.
BH:
My name is William Daly Hurst. I was born in Parowan, Utah, Iron County on October
the 5th 1915. My father was a forest ranger on the Dixie National Forest at the time I was
born. And he was, a year or so later after my birth, he was moved to Panguitch Utah and
given a job on the Panguitch Lake Ranger District. He put his entire career on the Dixie
and what used to be the Powell National Forest. They are combined today.
BM:
The Powell National Forest and the Dixie?
BH:
And the Dixie, but mostly on the Dixie. He worked on the Powell before I was born. And
he never moved and he lived in his home in Panguitch. He built the home. And he and
mother lived there all of their life. And my dad worked for the Forest Service for about
38-39 years.
BM:
So you grew up as a child of a forest ranger?
BH:
Right. And another distinction that I like quite well is my grandfather was a Forest
Officer also. He had an interesting beginning. He joined the Forest Service in 1905 and
he was an engineer by training. Born and raised in Scotland. In 1905, Gifford Pinchot, the
first forester in the United States, and President Theodore Roosevelt were instrumental in
establishing the National Forest system. And of course they were looking for people that
could survey land and I think that was the primary reason grandfather was selected early
on—because he had his early training in engineering, so he could run boundary lines and
survey that and map it out.
[Stopped tape]
BM:
Ok, I just stopped the tape for a moment because we want to back up a little bit and we
are talking about, Bill’s talking about his grandfather who was born and raised in
Scotland. Would you give us his full name?
BH:
My grandfather’s name was William Radkin Hurst. And my father’s name was William
Miller Hurst. And my name is William Daly [Hurst]. And I have a son named William
Johansen [Hurst]. The Williams carried down and they’ve always given--the middle
name has always been the mother’s [maiden name] of the person being named.
BM:
So Johansen is your wife’s family name.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
2
�BH:
My wife was a Johansen, so our son is named William Johansen. [Chimes in the
background.]
BM:
Now your grandfather, you said, came from Scotland and as an engineer was valuable for
with what was needed in the Forest Service.
BH:
Right. When I say he was an engineer, he had some training in the use of engineering
equipment. And he wasn’t a graduate from a college of engineering if they in fact had
those in that day. This would be before 1905.
BM:
Right.
BH:
But he was skilled enough that he was a Beaver County Engineer. So he was selected;
and back in those days I understand that Gifford Pinchot played a role in the selection of
that first cadre that came in. So my grandfather was known quite widely as a ‘Pinchot
Man’. I think Pinchot actually made a contact with him in those early days of Forester
Service. My grandfather . . . we’re really talking about surveying boundaries of the
National Forest. You understand, Barbara, I am assuming some of this stuff because he
never told me. But I do know that he surveyed a lot of the boundaries of the National
Forest when they were first selected.
BM:
Was it mostly down in the southern Utah area then?
BH:
Well, it, most of it was in the Southern Utah area. And I think that was a skill that got
him involved in the Forest Service. He stayed, my grandfather, stayed with the forest
service until 1913, and during that period of time he was a supervisor of the Beaver
National Forest, which was headquartered in Beaver [Utah] and that’s where he lived.
Later the Fillmore National Forest headquartered in Fillmore, Utah, was added to the
Beaver National Forest. He became supervisor of the two forests. Then later on in 1913
they added those two forests to the Face Lake National Forest, which was headquartered
in Richfield, Utah.
BM:
Ok.
BH:
And they asked grandfather to be supervisor of that forest and move to Richfield. He told
them that with 12 children he couldn’t make it on a supervisor’s wage, which was very
small. And he said at Beaver “I have a little farm where I keep the boys busy. They raise
a lot of our food and get our wood that we used to heat the house and so forth.” So he
resigned from the Forest Service and he went back to his job as County Engineer for
Beaver County and that was in 1913.
BM:
Ok. So your dad grew up the child of a Forest Service family also?
BH:
Yeah he did. And my father William Miller Hurst he joined the Forest Service in 1910,
after he passed the rangers examination. He was stationed on the Dixie and Powell
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
3
�National Forests. He worked about 38-39 years in the Forest Service and retired—in I
think he retired in 1948 or [19]49.
BM:
And he was mostly in Southern Utah. You said he was in the area of Parowan,
Panguitch?
BH:
He was District Ranger in Parowan, Utah when I was born. Then about 18 months later
he was transferred to Panguitch, Utah. And he lived his career out in Panguitch, Utah.
But while he was there he was ranger on three different Ranger Districts; they transferred
him around.
BM:
So your love for forest, the Forest Service, the outdoors, is in your genes.
BH:
It is. I think that’s right.
BM:
For many generations. Now with your, with that kind of experience, was there any other
choice, did you have any other fields of interest? Because I thought I read something
about a medical possibility somewhere along the way.
BH:
No.
BM:
No, ok.
BH:
No, that was never in my plans. However, my oldest son, in fact both my sons started out
in the school of natural resources up in Logan. Neither of them stayed though, in that
field. The elder son, I think spent 2 or 3 years at school forestry up in Logan. And the
younger son has spent 1 or 2 years in that field. And the oldest son went into biology, so
that he’d qualify for dental school or medical school. The other son worked for the Forest
Service a couple of years while he was going to school of Natural Resources, but he quit
that and thought there was a brighter future in Computer Science. So he went into
Computer Science and that’s where he makes his living.
BM:
Probably a good choice.
BH:
Yeah. He worked for Hewlett-Packard. And he lives here in Salt Lake City.
BM:
Ok, so you have mentioned two sons. One that’s a dentist in Bend, Oregon another that is
at Hewlett-Packard. Are there other children?
BH:
I have three other children. I have a daughter who is second child in my family of five.
And she lives east of here in a town near Heber, Utah, [called] Midway. She’s a graduate
of Weber State College [now Weber University] and she put in a career in Education.
Most of her career was in the public schools. She became an Assistant Superintendent of
the Utah County School District. And then she left that job and went and taught at BYU
for three or four years before she retired.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
4
�BM:
Ok. And she’s number two.
BH:
Yeah.
BM:
So number three?
BH:
I was going to tell you a little more about number two. She was…
BM:
What’s her name?
BH:
Her name’s Kathleen. She married a fellow named Hughes. She was very active in the
Mormon Church and she was selected by the president of the Church to be the 1st
counselor to the President of the Relief Society—that’s the woman’s organization. And
she served a five year stint as 1st counselor to the president of the Relief Society and that
really placed her on the General Board they call it, and is a top level administration. You
may know more about this than I do?
BM:
I don’t know that much about it so…
BH:
It was really quite a special calling for her. And then number four.
BM:
Oh wait, we missed number three. Who’s the third in line?
BH:
Oh yeah, number three. Number three is another daughter and her name is Linda. And
she married a man named Bryant Nelson. He was a Utah State graduate. And they live in
Hewitt, Texas near Waco. Both of them work in retail business. I’m not sure the name of
the people they work? Bryant works for a big store complex in Texas, it’s similar to
Walgreens (Walgreens would be here). His wife works in a business that supports that
group. I think her job is setting up displays in the store around the country.
BM:
She must be very creative. And then number Four?
BH:
Four is another daughter and she is another graduate of Utah State.
BM:
A lot of Aggies here. That’s great. [Bells chime]
BH:
Yeah, there’s four Aggies.
BM:
And her name?
BH:
Her name is Helen. She married a fellow named Tom McKay. She teaches school in
Edmond, Oklahoma. Her husband just retired from the Fish and Wildlife Service. He was
a biologist.
BM:
And so number five.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
5
�BH:
Number five is a son Carl.
BM:
BH:
That’s Carl? [pointing to a picture]
His name is Carl Johansen. And he’s in computer science.
BM:
That’s the computer person.
BH:
Yeah and he’s at Hewlett-Packard.
BM:
Well, from what I’ve read in your memoirs, these names are going to come back through
because I think it was your first, now where’s your first son? What was his name, the
dentist in Bend [Oregon]?
BH:
His name is William, William Johansen.
BM:
I think there’s a horse story somewhere along the way that we want to hear, about one of
his horses.
BH:
Yeah. He’s got all kinds of horses.
[Stop tape]
BM:
Alright, so we have the children, so how about your wife?
BH:
My wife was living in Grantsville, Utah. Her name was Emma Johansen. But everyone
called her Dolly. She went by that name her entire life. I met her when I was working on
the Wasatch National Forest out in Tooele County. I spent four, parts of four years, out
there and became acquainted with her and married her in 1941. She was with me 41 years
before she passed away of liver cancer, which took her fast.
BM:
So you mentioned the nickname Dolly. Do you know how she got that name?
BH:
I don’t really know how she got that name except that, you know family stories. She
came from a family of, first place her dad was an immigrant from Scotland [thinking,
correcting self] Sweden. From Sweden, he was a Swede. And he married, he wound up in
northern Utah and how he found her [Dolly’s mother] out in Grantsville I don’t know, but
he did and they were married oh about 1905 or] 6 I think. They had seven children and
my wife was the last one; she was the 7th. The story they say about her, about the name
Dolly, is that her mother was so glad to see this little girl come into the family that she
called her “My Dolly.”
BM:
Oh that’s sweet. So were all the other siblings’ brothers?
BH:
Oh there was one girl up near the front. One big sister that was about the 2nd one in the
family I think and then Dolly wound up being the 7th.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
6
�BM:
Five brothers to grow up with.
BH:
Yeah, five brothers.
BM:
Ok so what we have here is we have Swedish descendants and we also have Scottish
descendants. You said that your, just to finish up this side in the family, your grandfather
came over from Scotland. And do you know any geography in how he got to Utah? How
did he come in?
BH:
Yeah I do. He came with his parents, my grandfather Hurst, when he was about 18-19
years old. He came to Utah as a Mormon convert with his mother and dad and two
sisters. When they reached the United States the church [Church of Latter Day Saints] of
course, met them, I guess at New York, and they sent them to Utah. They sent them here
to Salt Lake City; there was a mother and father and the one son and two sisters.
BM:
How did they travel?
BH:
When they got to New York I think they traveled by train. Then when they got to Salt
Lake City the Church sent them to Beaver County. I say Beaver County because they sent
them to a little place that was just under settlement then, Greenville, I think they called it.
And my grandfather, he did quite a bit of education and he was picked up right away to
teach school. And that’s where he met my grandmother. She also came from parents who
immigrated as Mormon converts to the Church. And she in fact, she was one of his
students for awhile. They were just two years in age that separated them and they were
married and they had a family of 12 children.
BM:
So a family of 12. And he’s the one that eventually becomes then the engineer.
BH:
Well, he was the one that could do engineering work. Now I don’t know how much
training he had had in it but you know training in those days was a lot different than it is
today. And for doctors it is also. But he raised a family of 12 children which is a big
family.
BM:
It is.
BH:
My mother was raised in Panguitch, Utah. She came from a family of 12 children also.
Her name was Katie May Daly; that’s where I get my middle name. She was a school
teacher in southern Utah. She got her education in Cedar City, what is now the College of
Southern Utah [Southern Utah University], but in those days it was just a two year
institution. She met my dad who was a forest ranger in the Parowan/Panguitch area and
they were married in 1914. They raised three children which I’ve already described. My
mother came from a family of also 12 children.
BM:
Those are big families in those days.
BH:
So we had lots of relatives.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
7
�BM:
Oh, I’ll bet. We’ll we are almost finished with the end of the tape so let’s stop here and
then we will go on to the next section.
BH:
Ok.
[Tape 1 of 2: B]
BM:
Ok, we are continuing on tape one side two with Bill Hurst. It’s just after a lunch with
Fred and some of his other friends and we are going to continue on with Bill’s [story],
how he got to USU, the influence of USU in his early training, and also within those
college years some of the work that he did in the summertime, which was very important
for later on. So Bill, would you tell us a little bit about how you decided to go USU and
some of your influences there?
BH:
I think that I had in my head a long time before I went to college that I was going to Utah
State Agricultural College. The reason I say that is that I don’t remember ever thinking
about going to either BYU or the University of Utah. Why I didn’t think of that I don’t
know, but I didn’t. I always looked forward to going to Utah State. I think one of the
reasons I was attracted to Utah State was that quite a few of the young foresters who
would show up on the Dixie National, the Powel National Forest, the area’s where I
lived, had been graduates of Utah State. And I admired them and the work they were
doing. I think I mentioned earlier that I had engineering in mind and I did right up until
almost the last moment too. I even took engineering classes that I didn’t need to take,
because of the influence [chimes] of the Dean of the School of Engineering, George
Clyde. But nonetheless, I wound up in Forestry and majored in Range Management.
BM:
Now were there some influential people as far as either professors or other folks that
[influenced you]?
BH:
There wasn’t any particular person that got me interested in Utah State or forestry for that
matter. Although, looking back my dad and my granddad had an influence on me that I
can’t deny. Even though I didn’t look at it that way at the time, but they were both
foresters. And they loved the Forest Service and they just had to have an influence on the
choice I made. Although I had some very close relatives who had done very well in
engineering and they pointed me in that direction also. My dad’s younger brother,
Howard, he was an engineer out of the University of Utah, and did very well in life.
In the 1930s when I started to college, we were in a big depression in this country.
Thousands of men were out of work and jobs were very scarce, particularly in small
communities like Panguitch. So there weren’t many opportunities to find a job and so I
took a job with Hatch Brother Sheep Company in Panguitch, Utah. The first summer
which was 1934, which was the year I graduated out of high school, they used me mainly
in their fields and with their haying crops and irrigation and to herd their buck sheep.
Their buck sheep were kept away from the female sheep all year long until the fall time
when they were turned with the ewes for breeding season. Somebody had to look after
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
8
�the bucks during the summer when they were grazing on local ranges. To make sure they
were in at night and not straying. So that was one part of my job, but hay and irrigation
comprised a big part of my work.
BM:
Now let me ask you a question on that because that sounds different than some things that
I am familiar with. But you are saying that as part of a sheep range grazing, they are out
during the day but then they are brought into an area at night?
BH:
Yeah, the bucks. That’s the buck sheep. The reason that’s important is that if they get out
they might wander off to where there’s a herd of sheep; then get into the ewes’ too early
and they have to be pretty exacting on when they do the breeding because that affects
when they shear and when the lambs are born and when they do the docking of the lambs
and everything else.
BM:
So it’s very timed?
BH:
Yeah it’s very timed. In fact it was almost the exact date every year when they turned the
bucks with the ewes’ and then the lambs would all come about the same time.
BM:
What time was that?
BH:
Well, the lambs would start to come in the last of February the first of March. It was what
they call ‘range lambing’ in those days. The lambs weren’t, I mean the ewes’ weren’t put
in sheds or barns to have their lambs. They were, they dropped the lambs right out in the
open range. They couldn’t have a lot of real severe weather that would freeze the little
lambs. So it was a pretty exact science as far as breeding was concerned. And that’s why
they had to keep control of the bucks. Nonetheless, I wound up looking after the bucks a
part of the year and helping with the hay crops and the irrigation of the alfalfa fields with
the Hatch brother’s sheep company.
The first summer after one year of college, I went back and they put me out on the range
with the herd of sheep. And I spent the month of June what they call lambing the sheep.
And that’s when the ewes’ were having their babies. By the first of July the lambing was
over and they went through a process of two or three days they’d take the lambs and all
the sheep to a corral. They would dock the lambs, which meant cut the tails off of all of
them. If they had ear mark, they do marked the lambs. They would castrate the males and
put a brand on all the ewes; put a fresh brand on all the ewes. And that took a couple
three days. And after that process was over the sheep would go to the summer range. The
summer range that I was on for two years was, most of it, was quite a distance from a
road. I’d have to take a pack horse along with my bed and groceries and I had a saddle
horse to ride. And of course I had a dog; it was a wonderful companion
BM:
And was that Pal?
BH:
That’s Pal. I can’t believe how much help he was. I was sleeping in a tent way out alone.
Well most of the time, I never worried a minute about him coming in the tent. Pal slept
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
9
�right along the foot of my bed. And if anything happened he’d growl and wake me up.
And he did that quite frequently when a coyote came near the sheep.
BM:
BH:
So some of the hazards would be coyote, what else would be worried about?
Bear. We were worried about bear. However, I never had a bear get in my sheep. But I
did worry about it because that occasionally happened and usually a bear would inflict
big time damage on the lambs. They seemed to kill them just for the fun of killing them
you know.
BM:
Ok, not necessarily eating them
BH:
No they weren’t eating them. The coyotes would just have a little bit. But usually a
coyote would eat it, eat the lamb or drag it off some place.
I thought of a story. One night in the middle of the night my dog had waken me with a
deep growl and I picked up the lamp and put my clothes on and he kept walking outside a
little ways and then he would come back in the tent. The hair on his back was standing up
and he had this deep growl which I seldom heard him make. I thought for sure a bear was
out there in the sheep; although the sheep weren’t moving. You can tell when they move
because the bells will tinkle. The bells that were on the sheep—[the ones] that had bells
on them. And they weren’t tinkling which indicated that the sheep weren’t moving. But
old Pal continued to bark and walk ahead of me a little bit and then come back. And that
hair was still standing up on his neck which indicated something pretty bad.
BM:
Were you nervous?
BH:
I was quite nervous. I took my 30-30 rifle. And I walked down the trail. We were a long
ways from the road. I went down the trail and this dog would walk ahead of me a little
ways and then come back and then walk ahead, come back, all with that deep growl.
Finally, about a mile from camp, I heard a faint call say “Bill. Bill.” and then I knew
someone was trying to find me. But I knew it wasn’t a bear. [laughing] I was relieved in
that respect, but I was more concerned because what in the world would somebody be
looking for me at 2 o’clock in the morning? And I thought “my folks.” I thought
something’s happened to my dad or mother or my sister. And they’re trying to find me.
What in the world would they be out here in this time of night if it wasn’t something
serious. And so that made everything else like bears, coyotes, seem trifle.
So I kept walking down the trail and the voice came louder and louder and finally we
met. And it was a friend of mine from Utah State University that had a summer job with
the forest up at that country. He had been out marking timber. He left early in the
morning from Panguitch Lake and went out to mark timber. He broke down, his car
broke down on the way home and he knew that I was in the vicinity. His name was Bill
Thompson. Finally, I ran into him and he told me his story. Well we moseyed back up to
the tent and both of us crawled in the bed and went to sleep. And got up the next morning
and had breakfast after the sheep were settled. Then I took him, I had a mule and a horse
there and we saddled both [chimes] of those animals up and went back to the highway
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
10
�where his car was. And it still wouldn’t run. So we waited until a car came through and
he got a ride to Panguitch Lake. And I went back to the sheep herd.
BM:
Now, I want to go back to a part of that story because you made a comment about the
sheep having bells. But only certain ones had bells. Who do you decide to put the bell
on?
BH:
Ya know, I don’t know. I never put bells on any sheep myself. They were already on the
sheep when I took over, so I can’t tell you that. But I do know that bells were very
important for two reasons. One is the dingling would tell you where the sheep were. And
then if, I think they had a bell on about a 1 in every 50 sheep. And there were 1200 sheep,
so you would have 24 bells. And in addition to that they kept so many black sheep in the
herd. And the black sheep were kept in the herd to facilitate counting them. It would be
difficult you know, for anyone to count 1200 sheep plus the lambs and there’d be more
than 1200 lambs because a ewe usually has two lambs. So there would be 1200 plus. But
these belled sheep and the black sheep are what are known as counters. So when the
herder brings the sheep in to bed them at night, he’ll count. He’ll count the blacks and
he’ll count the bells if he can do it. Sometimes you can’t count the bells because they
might be in lie down so you don’t hear a tinkle. But you have the bells that you count
sometimes. But you always count the blacks. If you have say 24 blacks in the herd and
you count 24 blacks you can be reasonably certain you got your herd. If you are missing
one, you better go look, hunt. You know you got a job the next day, trying to find the
other black.
BM:
So it’s kind of like sampling.
BH:
Yeah it is; it’s the same thing. And so that’s the reason they have blacks and bells. And of
course the bells tell you where the sheep are too. They are valuable in that respect.
BM:
Interesting. So these were, this was the Hatch Company was your summer job. Was this
each summer that you went home from college?
BH:
I’d go right to the sheep when I got home, maybe stayed home for overnight or
something like that. They were anxious for me to come because they were in the middle
of lambing and they needed the [help], you know if I was going to work for them all
summer they needed the help right now.
BM:
But you were put out with the herd and you were responsible once the lambing was done
and some of the other things that you talked about with castrating and some of the other
jobs. Then you were put out with the herd in a meadow?
BH:
Oh no, not the meadow. It was just mountains just like these mountains.
BM:
So tell us about the landscape you covered.
BH:
The what?
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
11
�BM:
The landscape that you were in.
BH:
Well, it was a mountainous landscape, there was lots of aspen, lots of pine trees, quite a
lot of spruce and fir and there was some quite large and deep canyons. Mammoth Creek
went right through the area. It was well isolated. The Hatch brothers had three herds and
one herd was on the south of me, one herd was one the north of me. The herd on the north
of me was headquartered in what they called Castle Valley and that had a road running
through it. And the sheep foreman had a sheep wagon there and he’d bring his wife and
his little girls up to stay with him during the summer time. And he would move that
camp. It was a big valley, a big, great huge valley, that had plenty of area that were the
sheep could graze all summer long. So he’d be there and take care of the sheep. But he’d
be home every night. And once a week at least he’d ride over to the camp I was in, and
the camp that my partner was in, the same man both years, was in the other camp. And
he’d ride over to make sure we had salt; we had to salt the sheep at least every two days.
BM:
And why is that?
BH:
Well, they just needed salt. A lactating female will die if she doesn’t have salt.
BM:
So it was just a common nutrient that they need.
BH:
Yeah, well, that’s an ingredient of milk you know. And milk cow you have to have salt
before her all the time because, as I said, if they don’t have salt they die. So he had to
make sure we had salt every couple of days and he’d come over at least once a week and
sometimes more often and bring us salt. And he’d bring us groceries. And on each trip
that he’d make to our camp he’d say “what do you need now for the next week in the way
of groceries” and you’d always have an inventory ready for him.
BM:
So what kind of things did you order?
BH:
Well, they were quite limited. They didn’t include candy bars or anything like that. We
made sour dough bread. That was made out flour and baking soda and put a little sugar in
it. And this fermented flour and sugar thing and you know what sour dough is?
BM:
Yes, I love it.
BH:
Yeah I love it too. That was a basic thing and we always had bacon. And they tried to
keep us in eggs. And we had, we ate lots of beans and we ate lots of rice. Rice and
raisins was a favorite dish.
BM:
A hot dish?
BH:
Well, it could be either cold or hot. You’d cook the rice and put some raisins in it and
they’d swell up. You know. It made really a good dish, I still love it. Put a little salt in it
and usually it was cold. Then you’d put some canned milk on it and we’d always have
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
12
�canned milk. Oh it was good food; I loved it. I still love it, cheaper food. And
occasionally we’d kill a mutton. They had a few, oh a mutton and they were males that
had been castrated and they’d let them live over a year so they were a year old or better.
When we would kill a mutton the camp herder would usually split it three ways: he’d
take part of it and give the other herder part of it and me part of it so we could eat it
before it spoiled.
BM:
Because I was going to say you would have to store that some way.
BH:
Well that was kind of a unique thing too; we used to put it in a seamless sack in the day
time and rolled it up in the bed. Then at night we’d hang it up. Have a rope on it that was
up over the limb of a tree if there was a tree around, and hang it up above the fly line and
flies don’t go way high. We’d drag it up and let it hang out all night. And the nights were
at that elevation, 8,000 to 9,000 feet, would be quite cool. Then bring it down in the day
time and put it in a seamless sack and wrap it up in the bed again. So it would go in the
bed quite cold and stay pretty cool all day. We had good mutton to eat. And I don’t know,
my mother used to send me up cookies once in a while when somebody was coming in
my direction.
BM:
What kind of cookies?
BH:
Oh she was great on the sugar cookies. And I don’t know if she ever made chocolate chip
or not. I don’t remember. But I’d like that. And dad would bring some apples once in a
while. We ate pretty good at the sheep camp.
One of the owners—it was three brothers that owned these sheep. And one of the owners
had a son named Delosh, and once in a while his dad would bring him up and let him stay
over four or five days with me. He was quite a lot younger than I, but he’d come up and
have a good time. Incidentally, he called me here not a week or two ago, but a month or
so ago. He was up here with his sister. And we thrashed over the old sheep herder days.
BM:
What fun to catch up like that!
BH:
Yeah, he lives in Canada. Well, that’s about the way the sheep herding went. I had that
job for two summers. In the 3rd summer I started working for the Forest Service.
[Tape 2 of 2: A]
BM:
This is tape two side one, April 16th [2008] and we are here with Bill Hurst continuing
our interview and we are talking about sheep herding as a summer job in college. Bill,
you mentioned two years with sheep herding and then in the summer of [19]36 is your
forestry camp?
BH:
I had herded sheep that summer [1936] and the summer camp, the first summer camp that
Utah State University forestry school held was in 1936, the fall of 1936. It was about a 6
to 8 weeks camp; I’ve forgotten the exact length. It started about the first of September.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
13
�BM:
So I had to leave the herd, sheep herding job, a little early that year to get up to Logan
and go to summer camp. Then, immediately after summer camp of course, school started.
So I entered my junior year of college.
Would you tell us a little bit about summer camp since some of us don’t have the
experience of that.
BH:
Well, it was really quite an enjoyable time as far as I was concerned. I think there were
35 to 40 young men there. They had a wonderful cook, a man and wife team and their
name was Cooley: Mr. and Mrs. Cooley. He was an excellent cook and so was she. And
she was a motherly type lady; she was appreciated by all the boys you know. They liked
to visit with her and tell her their troubles and their experiences as well. It was a very
helpful camp also because we were out in the field and we were doing things that we’d
probably have to do if we went to work for the Forest Service; like survey pieces of land
and put out forest fires. Radios were just being adopted that were two way, two-way
radios. We learned how to operate the two-way radio and we learned how to mark timber.
BM:
So was that timber cruising?
BH:
Well ‘cruising’ is where you estimate the volume of the timber. We did that also yeah.
Then we learned which trees out of the stand you would mark in different species of
timber. Where we had access to different species of timber, we’d actually go out and
select the tree that we thought should be cut and mark it somewhere. We didn’t do any
cutting or anything like that. We just learned which trees out of a stand should be cut,
depending on their new crown and how large they were and how thick they were, and cut
them so that you’d release the smaller trees and get the old trees out that weren’t putting
on any further fiber. So in many respects it started preparing us for the work that we
could expect to do in the years ahead, if we were in forestry. We also learned how to
estimate utilization on grasses and forbs and learn which of those plants cattle and sheep
would prefer. Just a general review of Forest Service activities, out on the range, in the
forest.
BM:
Can we go back to when you say estimate utilization of the range. Explain that to a nonrange person when you say that.
BH:
here are several ways they do that. One is, and the most accurate job anyway but one that
takes time, is to have a cage out at strategic locations, and they called these key areas.
That’s key areas where the livestock generally go to graze. Have cages out there that
prevent the livestock from eating that grass, [like exclosures to keep animals out of a
particular area]. These might be 3 feet in diameter, sometimes they have permanent
fenced areas that are about a rod square: 16½ feet square. A lot of those are put in
permanently so they are never utilized. But they use a lot of cages out that are just
annually put down. And then the animals will eat around them. The most accurate way is
to take a pair of scales out and clip the residue on the outside down to what you think is
proper level and weigh. Then clip the similar area inside the cage and weigh that. And
compare the two and you get a percentage utilization that way. If you do this enough you
can make fairly accurate estimates of utilization just by walking through the country.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
14
�When I was ranger I did very little clipping, I’d just go out and look at a piece of country
and could tell almost as well by estimating how much was gone. Because I knew that the
heavy stuff would be on the bottom and the lighter stuff would be on the top. And if they
take it down within two inches you know they haven’t gotten half of it yet. And so you
do a lot of estimating. But that’s the way they determine plant utilization. A lot of people
say “well that couldn’t be very accurate” but I disagree, it is quite accurate. Livestock
people and the forest ranger, whoever’s doing work for the Forest Service, they get pretty
good at estimating the percent of forage that’s gone from an area. Each vegetative type
usually has a maximum and a minimum standard. So if they get down to the minimum
standard you know they’re taking too much. And the maximum maybe they’re not taking
as much as they could. That’s the way she’s done.
BM:
Now this is the college of forestry at the time?
BH:
Yes.
BM:
And you were at forestry summer camp, so is there also an area [of study] that is helping
you look at watershed or wildlife or some of the other aspects that I think of today that
are part of the college. Where was that kind of thinking?
BH:
We took classes in that. The only difference, well by the time we got to the period we are
talking about we had a division, I mean a School of Wildlife Management and a School
of Range Management as well as a School of Forestry. Now they got a school of
Recreation and other things and Watershed Management and so forth. But when I started
school in 1934-35, we just had the School of Forestry. It was headed over by the head of
the School of Forestry by the name T.G. Taylor, doctor. We had Paul Dunn, he taught the
forestry classes. And Dr. [can’t remember his name] oh dear, anyway we had a fellow
that taught range management and he also taught dendrology, like the study of trees. And
he taught some classes in—[remembers name of professor] Raymond Becraft. He was the
other professor. Those three fellows pretty well handled the School of Forestry which
existed in those days. Sometimes they’d get graduate students to come in and help, like
teach some of the classes. You’d go to the botany building to learn about plants, identify
plants and all that stuff. And you’d go to soils building, where they specialized in soils to
learn about—to take your soils classes. So it was a pretty well rounded out program, even
before they divided the School of Forestry into these three divisions. When we got Dr.
Rasmussen for wildlife, he created a Wildlife School that was just one of the best in the
country. And Dr. Stoddard: Ely Stoddard, he set up the school of Range Management
which also was widely recognized as being an excellent school. That’s the one that I
chose to graduate in. Since then of course they’ve expanded that and they have this
School of Watershed Management now. And they have some others.
BM:
The wild lands, which range and forestry are incorporated into that, and wildlife is in that
also.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
15
�BH:
Yeah. That’s kind of like it used to be when I first joined, they were teaching them all and
they were all meshed in together.
BM:
Well when you talk about that several times in your book, you talk about the importance
of understanding the inner relationships.
BH:
Yeah, you have to do that.
BM:
Some of it was from a predator-prey standpoint. And some of the others were just the
watershed standpoint with grazing, grazing management and watershed systems.
BH:
The watershed condition is the key to good management. If you don’t have control over
your watershed you don’t have good management on the land. So they give a lot more
attention to watersheds now than they used to. Although watershed has been important,
you know that’s what you’re talking about when we talk about all these flash floods that
came off these mountains. That was just watershed management.
BM:
And that was a strong part of what was going on in the landscapes around you that you’re
seeing as a student.
BH:
Yeah. All those big floods, and I say all of them, not all of them by any means, were
taking place during that period of time. Some of them were taking place during that
period of time. And they were terrific floods and, of course, they don’t happen as often
anymore as they used to happen. And that’s really because they have better watersheds.
BM:
So some of the places that were infected were like Ephraim and where else?
BH:
Well, there were a lot of them up on the Wasatch Front, between Ogden—well let me
see. It was that country—it was north of Salt Lake City and between there and Weber
Canyon.
BM:
Layton area?
BH:
No, but maybe Bountiful and through there. There were a lot of those floods taking place
down around Manti and through that country where the Great Basin forestry range and
experiment station, through there.
BM:
And that would be Ephraim right at the bottom of that canyon. Now at that time also with
the camp experience, how many students are we talking about being enrolled? What was
the class size like at summer camp? [chimes]
BH:
Oh at summer camp? Well, I think I mentioned that earlier and I’ll probably contradict it
now. But, I don’t remember the number I gave you before but, I think it we had around
40 students up there the first year.
BM:
So you’re camping in the old CCC buildings that are there.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
16
�BH:
Right.
BM:
And you are using quite a large area of Logan Canyon, of the upper Logan Canyon, are
you using primarily right around the camp?
BH:
Primarily right around the camp; although we took excursions out from the camp,
different places. The University owns a big section of land up there. A lot of it was taking
place that was right behind the old CCC camp where we were staying. We’d hike up and
over the top of that hill and do a lot of our training work up right within, well, inside of
the camp.
BM:
Is that now called the Ted Daniels Forest?
BH:
Yeah I think it is.
BM:
Alright.
BH:
Yeah that’s it.
BM:
Were you at the University when Ted was there?
BH:
No. He came after. I used to have fun with Ted. He was ours for many years you know.
He was a really permanent fixture at the University. He was recognized and honored
quite a few times. I’d kid him once in a while and say “Yeah I remember when you
came.”
BM:
When he was a young guy.
BH:
Yeah. So I remember when he came, and I can too. Yeah I was graduated before he
came.
BM:
And he made that one hill famous. What did he call it? Benchmark Hill?
BH:
Yeah, that’s Benchmark Hill. You’re right. Well, the hill’s named after him now isn’t it?
Ted Daniels Forest Hill. Yeah he’s quite a guy. He did a lot for the school of forestry too.
BM:
Bill, you’ve been talking about your USU experience and summer sheep herding and
your forestry camp experience. We are going to finish up for today, so would you
summarize for us the importance, the experience, some of the ways that USU prepared
you for your first job in entering into a profession in forestry and range?
BH:
I started to work for the Forest Service in the summer of 1937. That of course was before
I graduated. I worked until the latter part of September that year and then I returned to the
Utah State University to graduate in the spring of 1938. I went back into in June of 1938,
I went back into the same job that I’d left the previous fall.
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
17
�BM:
And what job was that?
BH:
That was called administrative guard on the Grantsville division of the Wasatch National
Forest. It’s out west of Salt Lake City towards Wendover. I was on Stansbury Mountain,
which was an isolated mountain standing out in the desert, but it runs from lake level
which is about 4200 feet to 10,000 some odd feet in the air above timberline. It’s a
magnificent long mountain; it has all of the life zones clear from, oh south desert, desert
shrub to tundra, above timberline. So it was a wonderful place to work. There was no
timber to cut on the forest, there was timber, but they didn’t cut any of it except few poles
and things like that. But it was a big range management job and the country was alive
with deer. So I gained a lot of experience in range management and wildlife management
while I was on that district.
After I returned in 1938 they assigned the Vernal Division of the Uinta National Forest to
me and it later became a Ranger District. A few years after I left, they consolidated this
Vernal Division and this Grantsville Division, which I’d been on. They consolidated
those together and made a ranger district out at Tooele, Utah. Since that time, it’s been a
part of the Wasatch National Forest. Now I understand they’re going to put all three of
those forests together.
BM:
Right. The Cache, Wasatch, Uinta.
BH:
Yeah. So I enjoyed another three years on those units. I should say however that there
were periods when I would be laid off. During the next three years there were periods
that they’d just run out of money to pay someone. And when that did happen they would
put me over on the main part of the Wasatch National Forest out east of Salt Lake up
around Kamas and Evanston and Granddaddy Lakes and [I would] work mainly in
timber. Selling lots of timber crops in those days: that’s mining crops.
Then there were huge insect control job projects going on. I worked on those and became
superintendant of a 200 men crew up in insect control one year. In fact, I had that job
when I got my permanent employment with the Forest Service.
BM:
What kind of insect control were you doing?
BH:
It was the mountain pine beetle. It was in lodgepole pine well, mainly lodgepole pine.
There were tremendous attacks and killed a lot of lodgepole pines. But they’re still going
on you know? Colorado’s complaining all the time now about insects taking all their
trees. I’ve about reached a conclusion that that isn’t too bad. We can’t use it; the forest
has to turn over and that’s the way that nature has for turning them over.
BM:
Uh huh.
BH:
The only trouble, and the thing that bothers lots of people, is they’re burning up a
valuable resource that you can make gasoline out of now. And then big fires get into
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
18
�them, into this dead timber, and sweeps out of the dead timber and into live timber, you
notice those downsides to it, too. But on the other hand, the forest is turning over. We just
never have been able to use all that timber, no matter how much or how badly we’d like
to see it utilized. You got to have a place to use it. And then, I’m jumping ahead quite a
few years now, but when I was supervisor of the Ashley National Forest we sold the
largest crop timber sale that was ever made in the United States. We were so proud of
that. We thought, boy this is really going to make an inroad into all this old rich
lodgepole pine. You know those trees that don’t grow too big in diameter but they grow
up straight and you can cut a lot of crops out of them. Well, we just got that timber sold at
a good price—not only the largest sell but it brought the biggest amount of money. They
got to bidding for us and they went way high, the timber operators did. Within ten months
they had invented what they call the screw bolt process, I mean a plate screw process.
Where they take a big old square piece of heavy iron and they’d run a couple of holes
through that then they’d put that up in the top of the mining shaft and screw bolts through
these holes and up into the crevices of the coal. Then [they] take huge wenches, they had
down there, and tighten them up and put that plate right up solid against the coal mine,
the top of the coal mine. That protects it as well as those mining props were doing and a
lot cheaper. The bottom fell out of the [timber] crop sales. People who had bid these big
high prices, we had to make some adjustments and do it fast. And cancel a sale under,
you know you’re not supposed to do that really, but we were forced to do it. Like when I
say we were forced, what could a poor guy do? He can’t sell his crops.
BM:
It lost it’s economic value.
BH:
Yeah, well, yeah it lost it’s economic value. Well, that only compounded the problem that
we had and have an overabundance of this over mature stuff. So what are you going to do
with it?
[End of first interview]
Logan
Canyon
Oral
History
Project:
William Daly Hurst (1)
Page
19
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/33</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Radio Shack Cassette Recorder: CTR-122
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-10-17
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William Daly Hurst interviews, 16 April 2008 & 11 February 2009, and transcriptions
Description
An account of the resource
In Bill Hurst's first interview, he discusses his experiences with the Forest Service: (father and grandfather both worked for the U.S. Forest Service in Utah), including Hurst's service in the Logan Ranger District and the Cache National Forest in Logan Canyon. Then in the second interview he shares his experiences growing up in Panguitch, Utah, where his father was the forest ranger his experience working for a sheep outfit, schooling at Utah State Agricultural College, and work with the Forest Service, including in Logan Canyon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hurst, William Daly, 1915-
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Middleton, Barbara
Box, Thadis W.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Interviews
Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Family
Hurst, William Daly, 1915---Career in Forestry
Logan Ranger District (Utah)
United States. Forest Service--Officials and employees
United States. Forest Service
Hurst, William Radkin
Hurst, William Miller
Forest rangers--Utah--Biography
Mormon converts--Utah--Biography
Utah State University--Alumni and alumnae--Interviews
Sheepherding--Utah
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp--Anecdotes
Forests and forestry--Fieldwork--Utah--Logan Canyon
Forests and forestry--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan
Utah State Agricultural College. School of Forestry
Watershed management--Study and teaching--Utah--Logan
Range management--Utah
Forest reserves--Utah
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Becraft, Raymond J.
Benchmark Hill (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Grazing--Utah
Watershed restoration--Utah--Citizen particiapation
Deseret Land and Livestock Company (Utah)
Public lands--Utah
Wellsville Mountain Watershed Protective Association
Forests and forestry--Multiple use--Utah--Citizen participation
Benson, Ezra Taft
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Design and construction
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon--Public opinion
Grazing--Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
Grazing--Research--Utah--Logan Canyon
Utah State University. School of Natural Resources--Research
Forest ecology--Utah--Logan Canyon
Range management--Utah--Logan Canyon
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral histories
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Iron County (Utah)
Beaver County (Utah)
Dixie National Forest (Utah)
Panguitch (Utah)
Utah
United States
Salt Lake City (Utah)
Salt Lake County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
2000-2009
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 3 Fd. 4 & 5
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx3fd5WilliamDalyHurst
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
6 April 2008
11 February 2009
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2008-04-06
2009-02-11
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections
-
http://highway89.org/files/original/1ea510c15a238ccf9fa7358fcb64fc32.mp3
f78c986a0fdab62b3571ef694644db75
http://highway89.org/files/original/cdd79f69f24af51026686026396d0e40.pdf
a76a08d31a66f0f33e03b8cae68995c3
PDF Text
Text
LAND USE MANAGEMENT
TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET
Interviewee:
Ted Seeholzer
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office, Logan, Utah
November 19, 2008
Interviewer:
Recordist:
Brad Cole and Clint Pumphrey
Brad Cole
Recording Equipment:
Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription Equipment used:
Transcribed by:
Transcript Proofed by:
Power Player Transcription Software: Executive
Communication Systems
Susan Gross
Randy Williams (2 March 2009 & July 2011)
Brief Description of Contents: Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in
Logan Canyon. He speaks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his
family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He
also talks about interactions and his relationship with the Forest Service and Utah School and
Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years.
Reference:
BC = Brad Cole (Interviewer; Associate Dean, USU Libraries)
CH = Clint Pumphrey (Interviewer; USU history graduate student)
TS = Ted Seeholzer
NOTE: Interjections during pauses or transitions in dialogue such as “uh” and starts and stops
in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript are noted with
brackets.
TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
[Tape 1 of 1: A]
BC:
Hi. This is Brad Cole from Special Collections and Archives at Utah State University.
Today is November 19 [2008]. And we’re in Logan, Utah visiting with Ted Seeholzer at
the Beaver Mountain Office – Beaver Mountain Ski Area Office. And also accompanying
me today is Clint Pumphrey, a [graduate] student at Utah State University.
Ted I always like to begin my interviews from the very beginning, [so] if you could tell
us when and where you born?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
1
�TS:
I was born in Logan, Utah – 1932; January 29, 1932. Seventy-six years ago.
BC:
And who were your parents?
TS:
Harold and Luella Seeholzer. They were both – my mom was born in Wellsville; my dad
in Logan.
BC:
And had they lived in the valley for quite some time?
TS:
All their life. Dad served no military time. And the furthest dad got away from Logan; he
went to New Zealand to help on the temple over there.
BC:
And your mother was from Wellsville you said.
TS:
Wellsville, yep. And her dad actually started the service station business in Cache Valley.
You can see the old – there used to be a service station between 1st and 2nd North, on the
east side of the road kind of where the Royal Bakery is there.
BC:
Um-hmm.
TS:
He started a service station there. One hundred years ago or more. I don’t have the
pictures handy here, but we do of course have them of that. So he was instrumental. He
also meddled in the horticulture business with Utah State many years ago. So our
family’s been active, not just the kids.
BC:
Um-hmm. So did you have a greenhouse then?
TS:
He had a cellar. That’s all they had was a cellar over there. They’d plant the trees, of
course harvest the apples and store them in there. At one time there was lots of orchards
in Wellsville; lots of orchards in Wellsville. I remember as a young person going over
there – the orchards. And he also had a cellar – it was a (what do you call them when they
have) a co-op type thing. And then he also had his own cellar that he would use for his
apples; and then he raised chickens at the same time. And I can still remember as a young
man and watching them count all the eggs and this, that and the other. He was a very
energetic old chap. You know, he was a “Svede” – Swede.
[Laughing]
And Grandma was a Dane. And they had their coffee every morning with their lumps of
sugar. I can still remember that. You know, maybe I’m getting off the subject here, I
don’t know.
BC:
That’s fine. So what were their names?
TS:
They were Brobie.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
2
�BC:
Brobie.
TS:
Don’t ask me Grandma Brobie’s name before she was married, I don’t know that. I don’t
recall that.
Did you got to school at Logan High?
BC:
No, I’m actually from Pocatello.
TS:
From “Pocaroostie”?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Can I give you a little more history there. My granddad’s brother had a cobble,
shoemaker, right across Logan High there on the corner – 100 years ago back in the ‘50s,
the old fellar did. You know, my family’s got quite a history here in the valley.
BC:
Sounds like it.
TS:
Yeah, yeah; a lot of history.
BC:
So what were some of your memories of growing up in Logan in the 1930s I guess?
TS:
Yeah. I know that my dad’s a plather by trade, okay. He’d put lath on it for you, plaster.
Of course during the Depression they did anything they could. He talks about working
with the Forest Service on the PWA [Public Works Administration agency of New Deal]
type stuff: going and roofing buildings, or whatever they could do to make a dollar. Dad
also trapped. His dad was a game warden at that time: muskrats and beaver, that’s where
some of the income was. I was born on West 3rd South and at that time Dad raised foxes
and mink for market. Shortly after that the Russians came in with all of their furs and of
course the mink markets went to the deuce [devil]. Dad was forced to sell and then
continue with his lathing. He still trapped rats; we still have some of the traps they used.
And like I say, his dad was a Fish and Game man.
I remember stories about Old Ephraim. Dad and his brothers chased Old Ephraim; the
same as the Crookston stories that you’ve heard. And I can’t remember the gentleman’s
name that finally ended up catching Old Ephraim. [Frank Clark; see USU’s digital
collection of Old Ephraim materials online.]
I know that our family lived on game: deer and elk and fish and ducks and pheasant;
[these] were extremely important to our meals. Dad used to illegally hunt ducks for
market. Dad was a pool player I guess. Down at the old Dee Woodall Pool Hall he’d
bring those ducks in there and throw them in the corner; you could take two for a dollar,
put the money on the counter. That’s what Dad bought shells with and whatever else he
needed. But I do remember that as a young person.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
3
�But I also remember the old automobiles and our trips to the canyon. [Getting choked up]
This canyon is pretty important (excuse the tears), but it’s been alive forever. I started
helping my folks [inaudible] when I was six years old and we’re still here. We are the
longest family owned ski area in America. I’m proud of that; pretty proud of that.
Anyway, I’ll try and collect myself here. But it’s touching. And you’ll find that the more
you dig the more it means to me. So anyway, that’s what I recall.
We did move from there on South Main, Logan River was right in our backyard. We
could fish anytime when the stream was open. And we always hunted ducks and
pheasants and those types of things. Dad got involved in the ski area in 1936 when it was
at the Beaver – and then it went from there up to the Sinks. Now, if you know where the
Sinks are, [they are] about a mile and a half above the state sheds up on the summit. It
was there from, oh, we finally came back to the Beaver in 1947 when money was
appropriated for the road through the county and the Forest Service and the state. Then
the Forest Service was very instrumental in bringing the water to the area. It was in ’39
that my dad and another gentleman took over the ski area and made it go [and we’ve]
been there ever since.
BC:
Who was the other gentleman?
TS:
Don Shupe.
BC:
Don Shupe.
TS:
Don Schupe was an auto body man. Shupe Auto body – it’s now (it’s no longer Shupe) –
shoot on the corner of 10th North and Main.
BC:
Oh, is that Miller’s?
TS:
Millers! Don Shupe was a first cousin to Charlie Miller, or brother-in-law or whatever the
situation was. And Don was there a couple of years and his back gave out on him and so
he had to bow out of the picture. Jane Johnson, who was married to Max Johnson
(LeGrand Johnson’s son) – it was her dad. (I mean just to give you a little relationship to
people that are still alive.) And we see Jane once in a while and we kind of kid about it a
little bit – what might have been, you know. So anyway, that’s the story. And I don’t
know how far you want to go along with this.
We came back in 1947; we put a rope-tow in. And then in 1948 we put in a T-bar.
There’s a big picture around here somewhere of it. Put in the T-bar and that run there for
a lot of years. That was kind of a make-shift – there was chairlifts in those days, but
money wasn’t available for us to do that. There wasn’t enough skiing public, lots of
things you can say why it wasn’t necessary. The size of Cache Valley wasn’t – the
population that skied was very small (and it’s still not very big in relationship for a major
business).
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
4
�CP:
So who were most of other people who came to Beaver Mountain? Were they from the
Valley?
TS:
That started it?
CP:
Just to ski there?
TS:
Yeah. And it still is. We probably have less than – unless you want to call it college
student as a vacation skier or a transient or whatever word you want to use – then we
have about 1 to 1.5% of our people are out of state or transient skiers or vacation skiers or
whatever word you would attach to it. And we don’t see many of those. We’re seeing
more because of developments at Bear Lake. Wasatch Front is where a good share of
them come from. But we do have people who have timeshares and once they have come
and skied here we seem to get them back. The problem with that is the duration of the
sport that you do, that you’re real active in it: three years, five years, ten years? How long
did you play tennis? How long did you play golf? How long did you play badminton?
See, so this interest span, you have to have new all the time to replace the guy that’s
dropping out. That’s a pretty big deal actually in our sport.
You had a question?
CP:
Yeah. Just to go back to when you first started working at the ski resort – what kind of
responsibilities did you have then?
TS:
Up at the Sinks – now I’m five, six, seven years old; I was born in ’32, so ’39 is what?
[I’d be seven?]
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Dad built a building there out of weedy-edge siding. I don’t know if you know what that
is or not – that’s the edges when you cut timber, you don’t cut the bark off? Okay, that’s
weedy-edge. Dad built a small building down there – I think 12 by 14 or 12 by 12 – I
can’t recall. And Mother – that building was to serve as a warming hut and food service.
Now I forgot the question you asked me.
CP:
What did you do? What were you responsible for?
TS:
Oh, what did I did do? Okay, alright. Our function as kids of course was to, of course we
weren’t running lifts in them days, but we would bring the food service from up on the
road, down to that building for Mother – the foods were all fixed at home: the chilies, the
barbecues, that stuff was all fixed at home. And we’d carry it, all in boxes. Dad pulled a
trailer behind the car (brown ’39 Chevrolet), I can remember just like it was yesterday.
And then we would take that stuff down there and then we would bring it back. Sure, we
had a little snow to shovel, but you know, six-seven year old, you don’t get a whole
bunch out of them other than lip service. Then as we got older, 12 year old, 13 year old,
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
5
�we were running – I was running a lift then. Today they would put you in jail if you did
that.
BC:
Now up at the Sinks, there weren’t any lifts then?
TS:
We had this cable (we called it a rope tow); it was like a rope-tow except it was a 9/16”
cable. And we had some hooks (I don’t have one here) that you would hook on the cable,
wrap it around you and it would pull you up the mountain. Now, how did you keep that
cable from burying you in the snow? Well on the highest spots we’d go cut an aspen, lay
it on the high spots and the cable would run on that. Of course, then we only skied
Saturday and Sunday, and there was a heck of lot more snow fell then than there is today,
I’m here to tell you. Talk about global warming, talk about whatever you want: we don’t
have the snow today we used to have. So it was always a big deal then to dig out of our
buildings, we left shovels outside – couldn’t get into them if we didn’t have a shovel! So
then those were the type things that Norm Mecham and I (Norm, he lives in Arizona or
somewhere now). But that was our responsibility to go up and dig it out.
My brother worked when he was older – he was almost eight years older than I am – so
he had more responsibilities. Then he went away to school and blaty, blaty, blah. But he
went in the military is where he went. ’42 he went and Uncle Sam joined him up.
And then in 1947 we came back here [Beaver Mountain]. But in those days ski crowds
were different than they are today. Utah State used to have a big winter carnival deal up
there. And when you go up there if you look on your left-hand side going up – it’s pretty
steep mountain there – and they used to build huge snow sculptures. I don’t mean these
snowmen kids make out in their backyards; I mean 12, 15, 18 foot high snow sculptures
of like the pyramid stuff is what they would build; or horse and buggy-type thing.
Literally shape them. It was a big deal. Somewhere I have those pictures. I don’t have
them now.
BC:
And that would have been in the 1940s?
TS:
That would have been in the ‘40s, yep. But see to prior to that Utah State held their
winter carnivals down at the old CC Camp [CCC: Civil Conservation Corps], right there
on that hill. Yeah. And Logan High used to hold a winter carnival down there also.
BC:
And the CC Camp, that was at the Sinks area?
TS:
No, The CC Camp is – do you know where the road to go to Tony Grove is?
BC:
Um-hmm.
TS:
Okay. Right across the street from that, they call it USU Training Center now.
BC:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
6
�TS:
But that’s the old CC Camp. And of course that come out of the Depression, like the
PWA did. And Utah State held their winter carnival – because it wasn’t until 1939 that
the road to Logan Canyon was open to Bear Lake; ’39 it opened to go to Bear Lake and
that’s what permitted us to move the ski area from down where it was, up to the Sinks.
Because we had to walk in; we parked down on the highway down there and walked into
the ski area.
BC:
At Beaver?
TS:
At Beaver, yeah. We didn’t go around the road – we cut through, you know; walked
across the creek and walked through the draw I’m telling you where the rock deal was?
That’s the canyon we went up. Now I’m jumping all over, but my feeble mind doesn’t
always work in a straight [line]!
CP:
Yeah, well since you mentioned the road, maybe we could talk about that a little bit. In
the early days – in the ‘40s when you first started having a big role in managing the ski
resort – what was it like getting up to the ski resort through the canyon from Logan?
TS:
In most cases the road was plowed like it is now. Of course, let’s be honest – the plow
trucks then probably went 20 miles an hour; today they’ll go 40-plus, or 30-plus,
whatever the turns will permit them to. The roads were in good shape, but what would
happen was the road would narrow and narrow and narrow because they didn’t have the
quality equipment to blow that snow off the side 100 yards or 100 feet or whatever. And
they did not use graders (patrollers with the wing on them) where they could come along
and slice the top of that off so the next time the truck come it could blow it over the bank.
And I’ll guarantee you they’ve made strides in building roads to help winter. Because
you never build a road lower than the sub-grade out the side. Because when the wind
blows, all the snow goes on the road. So you elevate the road so the snow blows crossed
it. And they have done that in several places in the canyon. But the road equipment today
is far superior. You have better tires on your automobile; you also have more four-wheel
drives. So driving today is much easier than it was then. But in conversation with a lot of
ladies that drive, it’s a terrible road! It’s unsafe! It ought to be closed! My goodness lady!
[Laughing]
CP:
So what was the condition of the actual road in the ‘40s when you first started working?
Was it paved all the way?
TS:
It was paved all the way – it was paved to Garden City. But it was much, much narrower.
Over the years they have been able to widen the road in various places. Environmental
restraints stop the road, like in the Forks, on up through there – environmental restraints
have inhibited the width of that: right, wrong or indifferent it depends on which side of
the fence you’re on. My complaint about the narrow road is that one tree blown across
the road can stop traffic and I’m saying, “Wait a minute. Is this modern times or is this
horse and buggy stuff?” And that’s one little complaint I have about some of the
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
7
�restrictions. I am very environmental. But I’m also on the safe side for you and I to travel
the roads.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
That’s where I’m coming from on that. We could do things to ruin that ski area, but we
won’t do it; we won’t do it. Because once we take all the trees, once we push all the
brush off and those things, now we’ve ruined the aesthetics and you’re probably not
going to come up there. At least that’s our thinking; now maybe our thinking isn’t good.
But that is our thinking on it. We’re in need of some more parking lot but we don’t have
any place to go other than start cutting down trees. We’re not very enthusiastic about that.
We’re in conversation with the state to use some of the flatland down below and they’re
not very enthusiastic about that! Because of aesthetics. So what do you do? You say
okay, we’ve only got parking for 800 cars and when anybody else comes, we send you
home? Is that what you do? I guess it is. When the restaurant is full you sit down and wait
until somebody leaves, don’t you?
BC:
Yeah, that’s true.
TS:
And that’s the only answer I have right now because my wife is part of this; one daughter
and one son and their significant others. And I think they feel like I do, that we’re not
willing to cut down trees to make a place for you to park: right, wrong or indifferent. So
anyway, I keep getting off the subject.
CP:
That’s fine. I just wanted to ask you I guess during the 1960s they started to widen some
of the road down here closer to Logan; and then during the ‘70s and ‘80s it was kind of in
a gridlock because you know, they had to do the environmental assessment on the rest of
the road to see if they could widen it further or straighten it further. And there was a lot of
discussion I guess, in the valley and elsewhere, about how they should go about doing
that. And there were some people I guess who were very, very much for the straightening
and widening so they could get back and forth to the ski area, to Bear Lake –
TS:
Well not just ski area, but Bear Lake, but consider one other thing; think about one other
thing besides you and I to ski and to camp and that. This guy that lives in Bear Lake – he
doesn’t have access to a quality hospital. He has access to an ambulance, he has access to
an ambulance – but he is 40 miles away if he lives in Garden City, from a quality
hospital. Now do we deprive him of that privilege?
CP:
Right.
TS:
He’s got a hospital in Montpelier that’s like this one down here was 10 years ago. See. So
there’s more to it than just a place for you and I to drive; there’s other people to think
about to in the use of that –
CP:
So when all that debate was going on, did the people at the ski resort at all get involved
with the discussion with the –
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
8
�TS:
I sit on the board on Logan Canyon to decide – not decide – put input into the decision to
do what we do with the highway. We are restricted extremely by the Corps of Engineers.
The Corps of Engineers will decide what you’re going to do. Let me give you one
example of what our group did just on the last section from the dug way – from the twin
bridges – up.
Okay originally there was a design on that big cut right at the top of the twin bridges, to
take and cut that side off and go out around the side where all the timber is. We sat there
and looked at that and said, “What kind of a fool’s trick is that? Why don’t we go this
way, move the bridge downstream, we’ve got a barren hole here that we could lay the
sides back, whatever degree you want. We’re going to cut down a few trees, very few,
and you pull the road out of the shade and you put it up here on the hill and you don’t cut
down all this old forest.” Well imagine that! Somebody else can think just a little bit too!
So it’s just things like that, that they have people like me on the board because we all
have tunnel vision occasionally.
BC:
And that board – you called the Logan Canyon Board?
TS:
I’ll think of the name of it in a minute. There’s ten people sit on it. And you know what?
I’m the only one that doesn’t have my hand in the county or state’s pocket. I’m the only
person that doesn’t draw a paycheck from a government agency.
BC:
So that was a sort of inner-governmental board?
TS:
Yeah, it’s still there. It’s still in effect. I would be getting called in – they’re getting close
to doing a piece from the Beaver on up over to the Summit. My mind is getting weaker,
but I’ll think of the name of that board in a minute. There’s ten of us on there but I’m the
only one that doesn’t belong to a government agency.
BC:
So how do you feel with all the input and push and take – how do you feel like the road
project came out?
TS:
I think it was good. See, had you been here 30 years ago that road from the head of the
dugway was going to have cut right across the mountains and come in at Ricks Spring. It
would have crossed the river twice. See the thinking on roads has changed so much in the
last 50 years or 40 years. Years ago it was a straight line was the shortest route and the
best route. Well, in some cases yes, but many cases, no. That would have been a hell of a
mess if we’d have cut through and built a bridge across the road there and then cut that
mountain and crossed the river again to come in at Rick’s Spring. And see you’d have the
same thing at Hattie’s Grove. Instead of going around the bend and up – cut a chunk on
the upper end of Hattie’s Grove off and Bear Hole, then up to the cattle guard. To me that
wasn’t an appropriate route in those days – or even today even. So by getting more
people together and talking about it – and you’re always going to have conflicts. No, I
think they’ve done a good job on the road.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
9
�Mr. Weston who used to sit on the State’s – he used to sit on the UDOT Board [Utah
Department of Transportation] (he used to be the president – they have a committee just
like everybody else, the state does). He thought, “Well,” he said, “We’re going to get this
middle section of the road done. We’re going to get that done eventually.” He says, “Now
what we have is an hourglass. We’ve got good road on this end. We’ve got good road on
this end, and we shrink down in the middle.” He thought that the public would demand
that they do something through there. Well guess what? It won’t be in my lifetime. It
won’t be in my lifetime that that will happen. And there’s not much in my mind that they
can do there. Where do you go? You’ve got [a] steep mountain here and you’ve got river
there. Where are you going? Are you going to put an overhand over the river and let them
drive out there?
[Laughing]
You going to put up on the mountain 100 yards to get 10 more feet of road? I don’t think
so. The only thing that I can see that gets obnoxious is that they elevate the road, raise the
road up itself and leave the mountains. That ain’t gonna happen either. See, that’s what
they were going to do in Little Cottonwood Canyon because of avalanches.
BC:
Hmm. They were going to elevate it?
TS:
No. What they were going to do is they were going to build a wall here and build a bridge
over the road – just the opposite – and let the avalanches go over the road. Oh yeah!
There was a big study on that. Because it’s big dollars! Huge dollars! And believe me,
money talks! If you don’t think so, look at the last election.
[Laughing]
Let’s not get into that one. But anyway, you know we’ve done a lot of things at the resort
and a lot of changes take place. Roads are important; I’ve been screaming for seven or
eight years now that they get our entrance to the Beaver changed. And I finally got it this
summer. Because see, what was happening there when you came out of the Beaver you
would start a right hand turn – here comes the highway and you couldn’t see back up the
road to see if anybody was coming because the snow was piled too high. And let’s be
honest – the State can’t be responsible for every little piece of snow that you and I can’t
see over; they just can’t do it. And so by making it come straight out at the road, now you
and I can see up and down the road. Built a passing lane. Good. We haven’t had many
accidents – to my knowledge we’ve never had a real serious accident there; we’ve never
had a death. So maybe it wasn’t all that important. I’ve been cussed by a couple of people
because it is a little inconvenient to turn and then have to get down, whereas the other
way they’d be on the turn. But that’s okay, they’ll get over it. I think it’s a good thing. So
yes.
BC:
So after you moved back down to Beaver when did the first major lifts come in? You said
you had a rope tow and T-bar?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
10
�TS:
We had a rope-tow and then we put the T-bar in. Put the T-bar in ’48.
BC:
Um-hmm. And how far did the T-bar go up the mountain?
TS:
Okay. The T-bar went up about 1800-1900 feet. That was in ’47-’48. Then in 1960 we
put the first chair lift in. That would be the Face Lift. It’s still there and it’s still in the
same place. It hasn’t been remodeled; it does have a new drive; it does have new bull
wheels top and bottom. Still use the same chairs, new rope; same terminals. So it’s
basically the same place.
The ticket office that’s there now was built in ’47. One of these days we’re going to find
enough money to get it out of there. And in 1964 we put the Little Beaver Lift in. And the
same year we put that in we built the Lodge. Now the Lodge has only been remodeled six
times since we originally built it. And we’ve got a big addition going on it right now.
And then in 1967 we put the T-bar in – which neither one of you I think has seen run. It
was one of them good ideas that didn’t work. [Laughs] And then in 1969-70 we put the
Dream Lift in. And then six years ago, whatever that was, we put Marge’s Triple in. Then
we built a tube hill and that was another one of those good ideas that didn’t work. The
only thing that we salvaged out of that is the yurt and the yurt deck. We turned that into –
well we rent it out during the summer, okay. But now it’s rented every weekend in the
winter (with family groups or birthday parties or whatever; some are a few weddings,
things like that, family reunions, church groups, scout groups). But the yurt wasn’t a
terrible investment, but the lift [to tow tubers up the hill] was. Of course we were able to
sell that so that wasn’t too serious.
CP:
So when – I guess maybe we’re jumping ahead a little bit – so when snowboarding first
became popular was there any discussion at all about what Beaver Mountain would allow
and what they wouldn’t?
TS:
No. In the original – when snowboards first came out they had an organization (don’t ask
me the name of it) that they had for boarders and had a gentleman from Salt Lake that
would come up here, a young person. And he would watch you with your board and see
what you could do with your board. And when he decided that you had the ability to get
on the lift and off the lift with your board then he would give you a piece of paper or slip
that said we may sell you a lift ticket because you now have the ability to board and get
off the lift.
Okay, at first we restricted them from Little Beaver. Why did we do that? Because we felt
that the ability of a boarder to handle his board, we were concerned about mixing two
beginners. We also used to keep them off the ridge for the same thing. And all that
happened there was it created a big argument between our ski patrol and the boarders,
because the boarders were always deaf to the ski patrol, to see if they could get down
there without getting caught. But then what happened about the third year with boards – I
jumped over this – boards did not have medal edges. Just like skis didn’t used to have
medal edges. And so the industry said, “Wait a minute. You have got to have medal
edges.” And why? Control, control. And so then they started to put medal edges on them
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
11
�and I think probably better bindings and blaty-blaty-blaty-blah. And today it’s – I think
there’s only three ski areas in the United States that don’t permit them and two of them
are in Utah: Alta and Deer Valley.
And that’s a business decision they’ve made. So I don’t think you ever will see them at
Deer Valley; I think someday possibly at Alta. And the reason I say that – these kids, the
skiers and snowboarders now – they hang together, they all come up in the same car or
whatever. They’re not like before, in my recollection of snowboards is that they were one
bunch and skiers were another bunch; they didn’t co-mingle, but they do today. They ski
the mountain together, they ride the same chair and eat lunch and all that. So Alta
(between us girls) is actually losing skier days. Finest ski area in America, there ain’t
nothing better than Alta.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Bar none. It’s the best. Their older set that skied there forever – the Spence Eccles and
those types – do not want to mingle with the snowboarders because they’re a little lower
grade of people.
[Laughing]
That’s the philosophy! And they have convinced Donald and before him Chick Martin,
that Alta would be a better ski area without them. I do know of some things that we have
problems with boarders. One is visibility, and we do have more collisions with boarders
than we do with skiers. That is a problem. They’re smart-mouthed (boarders), but you
know what? There are smart-mouthed skiers too!
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
It doesn’t all – just because you’ve got a board on you you can use bad language because
you could put skis on you and use the same language. That’s kind of a far-fetched deal
there. But no, boarding has changed a great deal and it’s probably 47-50% of our
business. We haven’t done a little survey in a while. Depends on the day; depends on the
day how many boarders we get. I think boarders are becoming more acceptable than they
were 15 years ago, or 10 or five even. I have concerns over some over the other
gimmicks that we’re using: bicycles on the mountain on snow. I have concerns over that.
We talk about – I don’t know if you’ve ever – do you ski?
CP:
I do.
TS:
Okay. Have you seen them up there on their – they’re not a bicycle with tires but they sit
on it, yeah. I have a problem with them in that they don’t have anything on their feet.
And so when they get on and get off the lift they can leave bad marks in the snow.
CP:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
12
�TS:
I think they have good control. Most of the people I’ve seen on them are a little older set.
100 years ago when Merlin Olsen and them guys were skiing we had what we called a
“sit ski” and it was very similar to these. And my hell, when them guys would fall they’d
leave a crater a size of this room!
[Laughing]
And not just him; I just can remember – I’m trying to think of the other guy that used to
play football same time Merlin did. Both of them skied. My hell they’d get in the chair on
the Face Lift together, the chair would almost come off the rope! [Laughing] Because,
you know, they were both big people. But we don’t have them to rent and we probably
won’t. How many things do you let on your mountains? You know? I think there’s a limit
to what should be permitted on a mountain to have fun with. If somebody else wants to
do it, that’s fine. And that’s Alta’s thinking on the snowboard and that’s Deer Valley’s
thinking on the snowboard: let them go someplace else. There is a place for them so,
there you go.
CP:
So I assume you’re a skier yourself?
TS:
Yep.
CP:
How long have you been doing that? All [of] your life?
TS:
Yeah. I won my first race at Alta at the age of 12.
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
I won at Snowbasin at the age of ten, before they had a lift. I won a metal at the NC2A
[NCAA].
CP:
Okay.
TS:
So, been around a little bit; been around a little bit.
BC:
So have you tried to snowboard?
TS:
No!
[Laughing]
No, something we ought to have at our resort is we ought to rent padding for first-timers.
[Laughing]
And thumb restraints. Because that’s what we’re hurting; we’re hurting thumbs, elbows
and shoulders with boarders.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
13
�BC:
Um-hmm; right.
TS:
The thing about boarding – a boarder the first day and a half, two days has more trouble
than the skiers. But by the third day he run off and hide from skiers. It’s a faster learned
sport. At least that’s what we’re seeing; even with or without lessons, it doesn’t seem to
make that much difference. I don’t know why it’s easier to stand on a plank with two feet
than it is to have two feet out here. I don’t understand that. But they do, they just run and
hide from skiers. Yeah.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
The demand that we have now for board use – we entertain a lot of schools. Last year I
think we had 32 different schools. Some of them came twice, but not many – and the big
demand was for boards. It cramps us to have enough boards for all the kids that want
them. Another thing that’s happening in the ski industry in the last three years really has
been strong is the helmets. And we have some helmets to rent, but on the weekends we
pretty much rent whatever (I don’t know we’ve got 12 or 15 of them). When these kids’
schools come, every kid wants a helmet.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
Are they necessary? I don’t know. I think there’s a deterrent with them. If you’re not
going to fall and hit a tree, I don’t think you need one. If you’re going to hit the tree the
next turn, then I think you better have one on!
[Laughing]
But they don’t solve all the problems; I’m sure they solve a hell of a lot of them, but they
don’t solve them all. Like the girl that hit the tree up at Beaver last winter and broke her
neck. But she hit – I mean I’m sure she had good speed – but it just pshh and that was it.
If she’d had a concrete block on there she would’ve still done it; it’s just one of those
things. And they happen. Thank goodness that’s the only second one in our ski area
career, you know we feel good. We don’t feel good about it; we feel good that we’ve
only had two.
BC:
Could you tell us a little bit about your relationship with the Forest Service? How does
the ski area work within the National Forest? I assume you don’t own all the land, but do
you own some of it, or . . . ?
TS:
None.
BC:
None. Okay.
TS:
Incidentally right now it is not owned by the National Forest. It’s owned by the SITLA.
You know SITLA is the School Institute for Trust Land.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
14
�BC:
Right, okay.
TS:
Years ago, early, early in life doing business (and I’m talking now when I’m 15, 16, 17
years old) listening to my dad talk to Owen Despain and all the other Forest Rangers that
we’ve had; and MJ Roberts and on and on – Dave . . .
BC:
Baumgartner.
TS:
Yeah. Until environmental thing became strong we could do about whatever we wanted.
In other words if we wanted to cut a trail here, we could cut a trail there; if we wanted to
build a road here, we could build a road here. And then as the environmental movement
got stronger, now we were more restricted; we had to do assessments and blahty-blahtyblah. And I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but you asked about the association.
BC:
Right.
TS:
Life with MJ Roberts, when he was Ranger up here, became almost unbearable.
BC:
And when would he have been Ranger?
TS:
Dave Baumgartner replaced him.
BC:
Okay. So Dave came at about 1990 –
TS:
Yeah, 1990-something. But see MJ Roberts had a long, long span. MJ Roberts and I did
not get along; at all. I guess we were both too hard-headed.
BC:
[Laughing]
TS:
Dad got along with MJ. But I couldn’t. MJ insisted on – we wanted to drill for water –
MJ wouldn’t let us drill for water. You know why? Because he didn’t want a ski area on
the National Forest. We had to have water! We were getting two gallons a minute from
the Logan Canyon side through a pipe that was buried that deep [gesturing]. We had
winters that that froze up – then what did we do? We hauled water up there in milk trucks
and pumped up to the reservoir and then feed it back in during the day for our restrooms.
There was things that wanted to go on Mount Logan that MJ – that would take power up
there to run the microwaves and stuff that’s up there – MJ about had a fit! He wouldn’t
let them put them on the poles because that was visible, and he also wouldn’t let them dig
a trench because of erosion. So he was kind of anti-everything. The forest itself I don’t
think was that way. You have to understand that every Forest Ranger runs his own
district as if he owned it.
BC:
Um-hmm.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
15
�TS:
Then when Dave Baumgartner got in – and others – life became a little easier because
they could see all they was doing was tying our hands. There is a demand for skiing;
there is a demand for picnic grounds; there is a demand for motor bikes. We have to have
sacrifice areas. It can’t all be trees and cows and deer and elk. That forest is used by
everybody; we all own it. We can’t destroy it; we can’t destroy it, but wise use. The
difference between an MJ Roberts and Dave Baumgartner was let’s see what we can do
and do it right.
Fred Lebar was my mentor and he was Assistant Ranger under MJ Roberts. Fred Lebar
could see – if I told you where we took the material on top of the mountain to build the
Dream Lift, you’d call me a fibbing liar. I mean we pulled everything on top of the
mountain behind dozers up roads that were that steep. Because MJ didn’t want a road
built (which would have been much nicer). You go up there in the summer, you look up
the rig and you see that road.
BC:
Yeah, huh.
TS:
We wouldn’t have had to build that road if he’d been not so dang hard-headed. So what
happens? You build a road straight up a mountain – which way does water run? Straight
down. You can build [in] all the cross members you want; until the sheep lay in them and
knock them down and then you’re right back where you started again. But anyway, after
Fred Lebar came in, I talked some sense into Fred; he talked MJ into letting us drill for
water. He talked him into building better roads; a road that was out of sight out of mind
to the top of the mountain. You can’t see it from the highway anywhere, and we could
use it without all the watershed problems, this, that and the other. Then President Clinton
made the Escalante Staircase down there a National Monument.
BC:
Monument, yeah.
TS:
Underneath that evidently is a lot of coal. And of course SITLA owned that land, but
when they made it a National Park now SITLA was booted out. So in order to satisfy
SITLA to replenish their income, they gave SITLA the privilege of choosing the land that
they would like to own to replace what they had lost down there. Well that went on for
two years and the attorneys fought and fought and finally the President stepped in and
said, “Hey this is bullshit. You take what you need without disturbing the forest and the
forest will relinquish it and do all these trades.”
Well SITLA owned 17,000 acres of land in Franklin Basin. SITLA has one thing in mind,
and that’s to make money. That’s their sole function is to make money. They were
making somewhere between $2500 and $3000 a year leasing that out to sheep and cows.
Not very much is it? The first year they claimed and took over Beaver Mountain they got
a check for $30,000 – which would you rather own?
[Laughing]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
16
�You know? You don’t have to be too bright to figure that one out. The difference
between SITLA and the forest is that SITLA wants you to do things that make money,
because if you make money, we make money. Now, we run stuff by SITLA – we just had
a meeting with them here a while ago. We’re up against a master plan; the county says
we got to do a new one. So we met with SITLA and told them of things we wanted to do
and they pretty much approved everything except a parking lot down on the road. Well,
okay if they’re not willing to do that then we’re going to have to restrict people (some
days) that want to come skiing. That’s just the way it works. Other than that, we pretty
much have a green light. We do need more water if we ever want to make snow. We have
enough water to give you a drink and flush the toilet. But if we ever want to make snow
we do not have enough.
SITLA would love to take all that land down there and develop it. I think it’s a ways off.
I think it’s a long ways off after seeing – well we’ve all seen. We have some friends in
Bear Lake that want to do some things with us up there to try and entice people to buy
their property. And I talked to them the other day and they said, “Forget that for awhile
because there isn’t any money.” There isn’t any money.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
But that’s the difference. One wants you to do things to make money, the other was more
apprehensive about growth, about growth. We never see SITLA. The only time we see
them is when we send them a check!
[Laughing]
BC:
So when you worked with the Forest Service did you actually have to buy a lease from
them? Or how does that -- ?
TS:
Okay. SITLA and the forest – it used to be that we could get a ten year lease, then it went
twenty, okay? Large ski area that have to borrow millions and millions of dollars, the
banks wouldn’t loan them any money. So it took about six or seven years of the National
Ski Area Association to go to Congress and say, “Look, we have got to extend the lease
that permits on these ski areas because these people can’t grow. We need the long term to
borrow money. We don’t need more land until we need more.” I mean you know how
that works, you know?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
I don’t need more potatoes until I empty my plate you know? And so finally they got the
Forest Service to give us a 40 year permit; 40 year permit. SITLA doesn’t like it. I don’t
care whether SITLA likes it or not! If I’m going to spend millions of dollars I want to
know that my permit is safe; I want to know that my permit is safe. I’m not going up
there to invest millions in this place and some attorney in Salt Lake that sits on SITLA’s
board and says, “That’s too long of a lease.” I don’t give a damn what he thinks! You
want to put your money into it Jack? So they’ve been pretty good.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
17
�They have wanted to re-write it. We have two permits there because at one time on the
Beaver, on the Dream Lift – there’s 31 acres there on a run we call Gentle Ben that
belonged to the forest. So (this is after the land trade) then we had to get another permit
for that. Wait a minute, maybe I’m telling you the wrong story here. That was state land,
that’s right. That was state land when it was forest because that little piece in there
belonged to the state. The state owned the other side. So we had to get a permit from
SITLA to use that 31 acres. Well now we’re still carrying that 31 acres and we’re
carrying the other one for 1000 acres. And they’re kind of holding that over our head a
little bit. Instead of putting both of them together (it would save us a little bit of money,
but no very darn much). They want to re-write the permit and go from a 40 year permit
(we’re good until 2038). And see then what we want in a permit is an automatic
extension for five years and five years. Now, how good is our permit? I don’t know.
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Until somebody really tests it and somebody wants to own Beaver Mountain and wants to
kick us out, I guess that’s the day we’ll test it. My personal opinion is, the way it would
really be tested if somebody came in and wanted to develop all this down here, wanted to
take this 3000 acres and they wanted the ski area to do it and so they put the bite on the
state, says, “We won’t do it unless we own the ski area.” Then I think you’d start to see
some fur fly. I think that’s when it would get down dirty and ugly. But that’s not going to
happen in my lifetime. Because the money isn’t out there to buy. Bear Lake’s got what?
500 lots over there to sell?
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
Why would you buy one at Beaver Mountain? If you wanted to use Bear Lake’s you’ve
got the 12-15 mile travel; you could own one at Bear Lake and sit on the lake in the golf
course, if you want to go skiing you drive your 13 miles, go skiing and come back to your
place. That’s what I think. To me, Beaver Mountain is not a very attractive place, unless
that’s all you want to do and have a summer home. Then Beaver Mountain is not a very
attractive place. Whoever does it has a got a big row to hoe: they’ve got to bring more
power in. Now sewage is the big problem; we can bring power in and we can drill for
water – but something’s got to happen to that sewage.
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
And if you come in there with a 500 unit development or 200 unit development – that’s a
hell of a lot of sewage.
CP:
You can’t just get a septic tank, you know.
TS:
That’s BIG septic tank! We have seven septic tanks. We have seven septic tanks and we
pump them twice a year. Knock on wood, our drain fields are still holding up. See, a lot
of that land up there is clay.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
18
�BC:
Yeah.
TS:
And clay doesn’t take water. Well, when we hit a rock bed we just jump up and down!
We just jump up and down. But you know, I don’t think it’s going to happen for awhile.
But that was SITLA’s mission: to make money for the state of Utah.
BC:
Right.
TS:
And they do make a lot of money. They do make a lot of money for the state. They have
coal fields and that down there that are generating $100,000 a month! That’s a lot of
money for the school systems! A lot of money, that’s fine. The only thing I object to is
that Cache County charges us property tax on that land – not on the lift and that (they
charged on that, and that’s fine), but they are charging us property tax on that (I call it
real property) –
BC:
Right.
TS:
Okay, as if we owned it as developable property. They’re saying out of this 1,000 acres,
800 of it is developable. And I’m saying, “Bullcrap.”
BC:
Yeah.
TS:
It’s not developable! You’re not going to build on 32% slopes!
CP:
[Laughing]
TS:
And I haven’t been able to convince them (and I haven’t taken them to court) over the
fact that we really don’t want to give you $30,000 in taxes for something we don’t own.
BC:
No.
TS:
Now, it ought to be one or the other: we either ought to pay the state or we ought to pay
the county. One of the two, but not both, at least that’s my thinking. I’m sure I’d get some
arguments over that. [Phone ringing] Yeah, that’s my wife. Excuse me, please.
CP:
Sure.
[Stop and start recording]
CP:
Make sure it’s going there. Alright, we’re back. So we were just talking about your
relationship with government agencies and things that you have leases from and
everything, for the ski area. Just to kind of maybe get a base line here – we talked about
SITLA and the Forest Service; there’s some state land that you all lease from right now.
When you first started working at the ski resort was the land ownership different than it is
today?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
19
�TS:
Well the land ownership when we first started, either up at the Sinks or down at the
Beaver, was all Forest Service land. Either place it was. And then – hmm, I’d have to
look it up, but probably nine years ago it was turned over to SITLA, which is the School
of Institutional Trust Lands and they became the landlords. Their function is to develop
the land and make money for the school systems. So it’s just been the two different land
owners; both of them with very different missions – not different missions, but different
attitudes. One wants to make money and the other doesn’t care whether they make money
or not because they get a blood transfusion every July. But SITLA needs to make their
own money for themselves, the people that run it and also for the school systems. So that
in essence is the two different people that we do business with.
We do have to account to Cache County for all building permits, for taxes, for building
inspections, for food service inspections, for water testing, all of those types of things. So
we’re just like any other. We’re almost [like a] city in that we have to adhere to all the
rules and regulations almost that Logan City would have to adhere to. Safe drinking
water, fire prevention, water systems for fire – you name it. We do have ambulance
service up there, we do have ski patrol that has excellent facilities to take care of injured;
we do not have the ability to shock a patient in case of some heart problems from
afibrillation – we do not have that, but almost that good of communications with them.
As soon as the county gets this 800 megahertz [MHz] in, then we will have direct support
from the hospital to run some of this equipment that we do not have – oh, you get 100
people and somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing, but with the direct support from
the hospital and this 800 MHz comes in will be a good thing. It will also mean that the
Fire, Sheriff’s Department, Police Department can talk all the way through Logan
Canyon without the help of repeaters. They’ve tested it; they can talk right from Third
Dam to Garden City from the top of the Beaver. And this side is being developed; they’ll
build it next year which will be a good thing. There’s no site up there for cell phones;
there’s a little difficulty there going on between the state and federal government because
the state wants it on their land because they make a lot of money off of cell phone towers.
CP:
Um hum.
TS:
SITLA has given the state the right of way over the land to get to Beaver Mountain. But
also written in that right of way is the fact that they will not be permitted to put cell
phones on their tower.
CP:
Ah.
TS:
Right, wrong or indifferent, when you have the power you can do what the deuce you
want, you know?
CP:
Right.
TS:
If you have to ask permission you do what you are told usually. That’s the way it works.
So, it will be a good thing.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
20
�CP:
So, can you think of any government policies: national, local, state policies that have had
a major impact on your operations over the years?
TS:
The big thing was when they made our permits to the National Ski Area Association they
made the permits for forty years. But also within that system is the fee system; it’s locked
in for forty years. With so much based on income; as you make more money you pay
more. It’s based on a million income, two million, three, four, five up to a hundred
million dollars: which some ski areas would do; some of your large Colorado areas. And
it is all predicated on the dollar’s worth. When the dollars up it costs us a little more and
when the dollars down it costs us a little less. It is something that set in concrete so small
little resorts don’t have to go negotiate that with our Forest or the state or whoever owns
the land.
If you are on private land then that is something else. But we do pay income taxes on
every dollar that comes in like anybody else. We do pay sales tax. We do have a small
exemption on sales tax and that is for the lifts, our snow making equipment, our snow
grooming equipment. Now why did the state of Utah do that? Because Colorado has no
sales tax on lift tickets; so we compete directly with Colorado for skiers. (Not Beaver
Mountain so much but the Salt Lake resorts.) So the Utah Ski Association met with the
legislator a number of years ago and said “Hey look, we are at a disadvantage; we need
something to kind of offset this sales tax on lift tickets.” So they did give us the
exemption on the purchase of ski lifts, on the maintenance of them and on snow making
and on snow vehicles: over the ground vehicles. But that is the only break we get.
CP:
So how has the environmental movement changed what you do at the ski area? Have
there been any laws enacted or anything like that or environmental laws that have
changed how you [do things]?
TS:
Not that I am aware of. The state is not immune to the environmental movement. But
they are immune to . . . In other words if SITLA did not want to adhere to Cache County
rules they wouldn’t have to. They’d just tell the County to go jump in the lake. They may
end up in court. I’m not saying they wouldn’t do that. But, I remember a statement that
the director of SITLA [made]. He came up here I took him around and introduced him to
all the [Cache] County Commissioners and Lynn Lemon and all those people that’s
involved in that, our state representatives when this thing was taking place. And the lady
who was chairman of the County Commission asked this person “Well, would you adhere
to County zoning?” And he said “Yes, if it doesn’t interfere with what we want to do.”
What did he tell her? “Yeah, if you don’t bother us, we’ll go along with you.” You know.
CP:
Right.
TS:
So that’s between the state and the county. Our deal with the county, we have a master
plan: we work on a master plan. We have to submit drawings, we have to get building
permits. Blah de blah de blah; so nothing’s really changed.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
21
�CP:
So aside for that one forest ranger that you mentioned, your relationships has been pretty
good with the government?
TS:
They have, they have. You have to give and take. You can’t be overly demanding, but
you have to go in and – See the difference between the Beaver Mountain and the Forest
Service: we have to make money because we don’t get a blood transfusion every 12
months; we have to make our own money. And if they make life so miserable and so
expensive that we can’t make a profit and then we cease to exist. So they have to be (I
don’t know what word I want to use here) but they have to be sympathetic to our needs
because Beaver Mountain entertains more people on that 1,000 acres of land than the
Forest Service does – not on the whole Cache – but on the Cache/Blacksmith fork/Logan
Canyon and then up toward Richmond. We entertain more people than all the
campgrounds and that put together on this part of the Cache except maybe during the
deer hunt.
CP:
Whoa.
TS:
So as far as campers, trailers, hikers, bikers, horse riders; we entertain more than they do.
We entertained last year 87,000 people.
CP:
So what kind of – you know, 87,000 now – what kind of increase have you seen since
you started working at Beaver Mountain?
TS:
When I was a kid and we were up at the Sinks, lift tickets were $1 a day. And I can
remember when $39 was a big day.
CP:
Wow!
TS:
This book right here you saw me digging out?
CP:
Uh-huh?
TS:
That book, that book is one that my folks kept that tells what money income was at the
ski area. For example, (let me go back) – [flipping through pages of a book]
CP:
This is a ledger?
TS:
Yeah, this is a ledger.
CP:
With the date?
TS:
This is the date: on December 15, 1956 we took in $47.25 on the lift and $13.30 on the
shelter, in 1956.
CP:
Uh-huh. Yeah.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
22
�TS:
So how many people is that? I don’t know what lift tickets were at that time. This doesn’t
tell me. For the month of December we generated $1,128; in the food service we
generated $331.
CP:
That’s where the money is, or was then.
TS:
Yeah! I mean, you know. And here it says it started a lift December 19, 1954. December
19 they did $41.25 on the lift and $12.80 on food service. The month of December we did
$175.50 on the lifts. That’s not very much money!
CP:
No, no. Especially now, with passes being a few hundred dollars, so.
TS:
And this goes back – I talked to you about the Mount Logan Winter Carnival; Mount
Logan Ski Club Carnival – here’s all the people that raced and the times. And a lot of
these people are still alive, like Jerry Wallace and Max Sears, John Croft – these are
people that are my age. Eldon Larsen’s dead, but I mean that doesn’t mean anything to
you, but my dad kept records of everything.
CP:
Yeah. So what years, what time periods does that book cover there?
TS:
[Looking in the book] March 10, 1946. And here’s the cross country, the snow sculpture I
talked to you about snow sculpturing.
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
American Vets Rotary Club Mountain something, somebody – I can’t remember. (Some
of the book’s had water spilled on it.) But this book here, this little one, gives all the
times that our people worked. This one is not so old here; who worked, how many hours
and what their pay was. It’s kind of fun to dig back in that when we paid people $2.20
and hour.
CP:
Right, right.
TS:
You know, kids in high school.
CP:
So how have people’s demands changed? Skiers’ demands changed over the decades?
TS:
Well.
CP:
I’m sure what skiers expect from Beaver Mountain is much different than something they
might expect somewhere in Park City, or –
TS:
Right, right. It depends. Skiers today want lifts that run good, lifts that are comfortable;
they would like high speed lifts. Beaver Mountain can’t afford high speed lifts for a
couple of reasons: first of all the expense in buying them; and second of all, the expense
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
23
�in hiring the qualified people to run the electrical system in them. See you would need –
on high speed lifts – you have to hire EEs (Electrical Engineers).
CP:
Really?
TS:
What would you have to pay an Electrical Engineer? $50, $60, $70,000 a year? Psh.
Maybe $80 maybe $90? That’s a lot of money!
CP:
Right.
TS:
Where we can get guys with the lifts we have now, we can hire them for 35-$40,000.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
But the public does want the faster lifts; they want better groomed ski runs (which we
have the ability to do); they want good food, fast; they want a place to lounge (which you
can’t always supply – you get 1,000 people, you’re lodge holds 300 you know,
somebody’s going to have to leave) that’s a problem for us. We do not have the problems
with our clientele that the Salt Lake resorts do. Why? Most of our skiers are local. 85% of
their skiers are out of state, probably people that make a little more money who seem to
be more demanding. Now somebody don’t misunderstand what I just said, “seem to be.”
You can talk to the guys and gals that work at Alta on the lifts and they’re very happy
when spring comes because they’re tired of putting up with people who are demanding.
CP:
Right.
TS:
The Deer Valley will tell you the same thing; Park City will tell you the same thing. We
have a totally different – not totally – but pretty much different clientele than they have.
So a ski area ought to be a fun place to work, because whomever’s there is having fun;
they want to have fun. They’re there for enjoyment. Maybe they only take one ride and
go out and tailgate the rest of the day.
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
But that’s their entertainment! That’s what they do! Who says that because you buy a lift
ticket that you’ve got to make 15 runs a day? It’s an activity, it’s a sport, it’s a recreation,
it’s a happening.
CP:
Yeah, yeah.
TS:
And we’re seeing more and more of that all the time. We’re selling, oh 4 or 5,000 season
passes. Do you think them people are going to come up there everyday and beat their
head against the wall and run, run, run? No. They’re there for the experience; they’re
there to have fun; they’re there to socialize.
CP:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
24
�TS:
That’s good. That’s the way it should be; that’s the way it should be. Sure we have young
people that come up there (and older ones) that they got to get as many runs as they can
get because they spent $38 for a lift ticket and “by God, I’m going to get my money!”
Fine, fine. You can ski just as dang hard as you want. It doesn’t bother me. If you want to
go out and tailgate on your parking lot and fix whatever you fix – fine with me! Just don’t
leave your mess! [Laughing]
CP:
So then back in the ‘40s, you’re saying that basically the people just wanted a way to get
up the mountain and –
TS:
Okay. Back in the ‘40s we had a different ski area than we got today.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Back in the ‘40s you had the outdoor, mountaineering-type person – that was rugged (I
don’t like that word), but the rugged type individual. Today what have we got? The sick,
the lame and the lazy!
[Laughing]
Included with these others.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Who would’ve ever thought back in 1940 that you would have had adaptive scheme for
somebody that didn’t have his legs.
CP:
Mm-hmm.
TS:
Or somebody that didn’t have any arms; or somebody that couldn’t stand up that had to
be in a wheelchair. Who would’ve ever thought of that in 1940? We’ve got them
everyday up at the Beaver!
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
Thank the good Lord there’s people that are willing to do that for those people.
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
We, at Beaver, try to make life easy for them. We donate lift tickets to those people. And
here again, what I just said, the sick, the lame and the lazy. And I don’t mean that
derogatory, but that’s how it’s changed! We don’t just have a fur coat that we pull on and
go skiing, we got underwear and we got clothing that would keep you warm at 40 below!
CP:
Right.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
25
�TS:
And doesn’t have to be six inches thick like the old suits we used to wear. And the big
awkward shoes and four layers of socks! Now we wear one layer of thin socks and keep
warmer than the days when we wore six pair of socks!
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
So things have changed. Our equipment has gotten better; the lift has gotten better, the
food service has gotten better, the lodging has gotten better. Not just at Beaver Mountain,
at ALL resorts.
CP:
So have you ever tried to actively draw any of the crowd from Salt Lake City?
TS:
No.
CP:
Never tried? Never had any desire.
TS:
Well, okay. We do a little of it. But why should I solicit you if I don’t have a place for
you to stay?
CP:
Right, right. I mean you’ve got your niche, so.
TS:
Yeah, we’ve got a niche!
CP:
Right.
TS:
We think that if we ever get Bear Lake organized – have you been to Bear Lake lately?
CP:
I have!
TS:
Have you been there this winter?
CP:
I haven’t been this winter. Last time I went was – well, actually last time I went was this
summer.
TS:
Okay, there was a few food places open, a few places to go eat weren’t there?
CP:
Uh-huh.
TS:
A couple of service stations, weren’t there?
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
Do you know what you’d find if you went over there now?
CP:
What’s that?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
26
�TS:
You’d find three food services open – one of them’s just Thursday, Friday, Saturday; the
other one’s open seven days a week and the other one’s open five days a week. Is there a
grocery store? Well, not as big as this office we’re in.
[Laughing]
See. You got a place to go to a movie?
CP:
Uh-huh,
TS:
Do have a place to go bowling?
CP:
No, none of that.
TS:
Have you got a bar to go in? What have you got? Nothing. So would you want to take a
vacation and go and stay at Bear Lake with nothing to do after seven o’clock at night?
Probably not. So why should I solicit you to come to a place that I don’t have a place for
you.
CP:
Right.
TS:
Now, let’s be honest. I think there’s people out there that we could solicit and tell them
honestly what we are that would come and stay at a hotel/motel in Logan, and travel the
30 miles to the resort. Why? Mon-ey! They can stay down there for 40, 50, $60 –
whatever it is – they can ski for $40.
CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
That’s a damn cheap ski trip.
CP:
A good deal.
TS:
It is! But you have to be willing to relinquish the assets that are at Deer Valley or Park
City.
CP:
Right.
TS:
You have to say, “Well they’re not of value to me.” I don’t have them, I don’t have any
money to pay for them either.
CP:
So has anyone in your business actively tried to encourage development of Bear Lake at
all, or is that kind of outside your –
TS:
I think they need a large convention center over there; they need a decent grocery store
over there. They need some entertainment over there. But what I can understand, that of
the people that own homes in Bear Lake, Garden City, all that area – that maybe 5% of
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
27
�them use them year-round, and the other 95 are used for a few weeks out of the year
when Bear Lake is handy or if they came from the Wasatch Front, come up here and take
over the Christmas Holidays. We do get quite a few people from the Wasatch Front over
Christmas because they own places over there.
But for us to go out and solicit large groups of people to come to Beaver, it might work
once, but you’d never get them back. You’d never get them back because we are not that
kind of a ski area. We’re that kind of a ski area, but we’re not that kind of a facility ski
area (if that makes sense to you).
CP:
Yeah.
TS:
People say “Well look at all these people that go to Park City!” I said “My Lord! Look at
Park City! It’s a mile long with stores on every side: hotels, motels, bars, eating food, rent
skis, buys skis, buy a fur coat, buy a diamond ring, what do you want?!”
CP:
[Laughing] And they got a airport, you know, not very far away, so.
TS:
Yeah! See, so that what I think most ski vacationers want. Not all, not all.
CP:
Convenience. Yeah.
TS:
Convenience! I was in Ketchikan five years ago. And at Ketchikan these –
CP:
Alaska?
TS:
Alaska. Ketchikan, Alaska. Where these ships come in from these people that are on
these cruises; cruise ships come in there. There were two cruise ships come in there that
would hold roughly 4,800 people a piece. They both pulled up to the dock; long as a
football field; four stories high – I don’t know how big. And we’d sit in there waiting for
an airplane out of there, we had a day to loiter. And the town there at Ketchikan is about
four blocks long, (the whole thing it’s a lot longer than that). Those tours were totally full
of those people coming to buy stuff to take home. You think those locals didn’t know it?
You could walk there at 10 o’clock and there would’ve been nobody in the store, but at
11 it would have been full of people taking your money and people shopping. And they
would blow the whistle and all those people would leave and they’d go back on the boat
and it was a ghost town again. So people will spend the money if you’ve got a place for
them to spend it. And you don’t have that at Bear Lake. Now, summer pretty good;
winter, not so good.
CP:
Well I just wanted to go back and ask you one more question about an environmental
policy that’s come up in recent years, and just was wondering if it affected your business
at all. Just the debate over motorized versus non-motorized transportation: snowmobiles –
TS:
It hasn’t got onto to us because we so far have been able to keep the snowmobilers out of
there in the winter: because skiers and snowmobilers collide.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
28
�CP:
Um-hmm.
TS:
If they go up there on the mountain and they dig a deep hole and some skier falls in it,
hurts himself, who’s responsible? I don’t know where that guy is that left it with a
snowmobile. Those are things that we get concerned about when we groom, that we don’t
leave bad places for you to drop a ski or a board in and get hurt. Those are things that we
try to avoid. No, we have stayed out of that fight between the cross-country skier and the
snowmobiler. No, it hasn’t affected us because we’re a different – no, we don’t permit
them to park in our parking lot; we need it for our people. There’s a parking lot down
there, go use that and if it’s not big enough, don’t bother me go to the state. That’s their
concern, not mine.
CP:
Right.
TS:
See, what happened with the environmental movement – when we first started to develop
in the ski area in 1977. We had to do a big master plan: that was it. (Fact it was before it.)
So what we did, we hired some people to make all the lines and the circles, and write the
write-ups. And we had two meetings and we invited all the politicians, we invited all the
environmental community, of course the Forest Service, ski groups, anybody else. And
we met at the ski area. We had a few hundred people show up and we had about eight
tables. And we had a chairman at each table: he talked about power, or he talked about
whatever it was – cutting trees, or putting up ski lifts, or parking lots, or whatever. And
so all of these environmental groups, they came and they got their input, they got their
input to what they thought ought to happen. And those inputs were considered and then
we wrote up the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) and those things were put in
there weighed against something else. You know what? We never had one complaint
from the environmental community because they were invited to have their say. Now if
we would’ve done that without including them, they would’ve found reasons to block it
or get our master plan. But because they were involved, they had input into it, they were
happy with that. So, we’ve done a couple of things right.
CP:
Right, right. I just wanted to ask another thing about how the ski area has changed over
the years. How has it changed in terms of summer use?
TS:
Okay, years ago – of course when we were in the Sinks, we had nothing. We come into
Beaver in ’47, we had nothing. Then about 12-15 years ago we decided to try summer
activities. And so we planted three semi loads of grass out around the deck at the lodge so
that it looked nice. We cleaned up all the brush and the rocks, we cleaned all that up. I got
pictures to show you what it looked like, the devil. And so then we put the RV hookups;
put in 15 of those. And slowly we started renting them. So now 15 on the weekends, 16 is
not enough. So we put people on what we called the “upper side” and they can run a cord
and get power; they don’t have sewer, they don’t have water. And then we have tent sites;
six tent sites. Some of them one tent, two tents; some of them 7, 8, 9, 10 tents. We have
permanent pitch tents. We have four, ten-man tents that are permanently pitched that you
can rent for whatever you want. And you have water there, but no power, no sewer. But
we do have toilets, temporary toilets. Then we have the yurt, we rent the yurt out. That’s
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
29
�rented out a lot in the summer. The day lodge, we rent the day lodge out. So we’ve gone
from doing nothing, to finding everything we’ve got at the resort where we can put a tent,
where we can put an RV spot. Now we can build some more RVs in the upper parking
lot, we can do that and we will do that. But we’re looking for a little more demand
because you understand in economics if you build and they don’t come, you still get to
pay for it.
CP:
That’s right.
TS:
But when there’s enough demand and you build and you know they’re going to come,
then you’re fine. So maybe our financial philosophy is different than the others: we don’t
like to borrow money. We don’t borrow money. Beaver Mountain has not borrowed
money since 10, 11 years ago when my wife and I bought my brothers and sisters out, we
didn’t have the money so we had to borrow it. Since then we’ve been able to do whatever
we’ve done, on our own money. And that’s good because we do not build, we do not
spend before we’re sure of our return. That’s the way it works. That’s the way it should
work! It’s worked for us.
CP:
So then, just to kind of sum up everything we’ve talked about – what do you feel is the
future of Beaver Mountain? What do you think will happen after, when you pass it on to
someone else?
TS:
Well, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but what I hope happens – two of our kids
and their significant others are in the business with us. Our son Travis is around 50-ish;
Jeff [son-in-law] is around 57, 58. Travis doesn’t have any boys; Jeff’s got two boys. At
the present time they’re not very interested in the business. Will they become interested?
Will the girls take it over and run it, do the man’s work? I don’t know, I don’t know. I
would like to see it stay in the family; I’m sure my folks would, you know? What
happens with development down below? Are they going to find an opportunity there to
sell it and walk away from it and make a lot of money? Or will they cherish it like we
have and say, “No, I don’t need the money, I don’t need the money”?
I think the ski area will grow more. I think there will be a couple more lifts put in; there’s
going to be some lodge additions, those types of things. We know that there’s going to be
more food service put in up towards the other side of the ski patrol building. There’s
going to be some buildings put in over at Marge’s Triple for food service and for
restrooms; that’s going to happen. So I see the ski area staying together, unless, as we
talked earlier, that the state finds a buyer for the whole thing and the only way he’ll buy it
is if the ski area’s included and they find a way to boot us out of there.
So that’s my hope. Now are you the one that asked about a mission statement?
CP:
No.
TS:
Oh, I got another meeting at 12:15 or something with somebody else on similar stuff.
They want to talk about bicycles and summer bicycle rides and where’s your mission
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
30
�statement? Where are you headed? Well, I think mission statements are for a little bigger
company than we are. I think if you sat Jeff in that corner and Travis and the rest of them
in these other corners, you went around and asked them, “What do you think is going to
happen to Beaver?” I think almost without exception you would get the same answer,
because we’re a small company and we have meetings and get-togethers all the time and
discuss where we’re going, so. Anyway, we’ll see what he wants to know.
CP:
Right. So you think it will stay –
TS:
A “Ma and Pa”?
CP:
Yeah a “Ma and Pa” that caters to a local crowd?
TS:
I think so.
CP:
Think so.
TS:
They say Logan is going to double in the next 20 years. Maybe, maybe. We do have
room up there to build more day lodges and that if we need. We hope to build one now,
we got problems with the ski shop, we got problems with the ski school, we got problems
in food service. We need more room. We need more locker space, if you want to rent a
locker. Our lockers are totally booked, and they have been. People they keep them and if
they decide they’re not going to stay, they turn it over to somebody else.
CP:
Do you think that the warmer climate is going to affect the way that your business is run?
TS:
I read an article here awhile ago that scared me to death because they predicted that by
2038 it would not snow – and that’s the last year of our permit with the state. How
expensive would that be? Yeah, I’m concerned over the climate. But the thing that
bothers me is Congress or whoever, the Environmental Protection Agency, is not willing
to let business do things that we hold down the greenhouse gases. They’re still running
their coal-fired generating plants, when they could put nuclear in, that puts out one-tenth
the emission.
CP:
Right.
TS:
And probably safer, if the truth was known. They said we would have to have two
Chernobyls a week to be any more than dangerous than the coal-fired plants. Do you
think we’re going to have two of them a week? I don’t think so. Three mile island? I
don’t think so. Now, they’re talking about the down-winders. Yeah, that was probably a
mistake. No, I don’t know. I think sometimes people do these things and say these things
to try and get some notoriety. I wish they had a little more technical data to tell us about
before they opened their yip. You know? Everybody wants to be up here; everybody
wants to be the knowledgeable guy or gal and I think sometimes the stuff they throw at us
is total bullcrap. But it is a concern because we do not have the snow now that we had
when I was a kid. We do not have that, I know that. I know that.
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
31
�CP:
What kinds of measurements do you remember?
TS:
Well, that’s been so long ago. I can remember years of 120 inches of collected snow. We
can get 350-400 inches of snowfall, but it settles down;120-140. But now, if we get 80 or
90 it’s pretty good.
CP:
Right.
TS:
It’s pretty darn good. I can’t remember what last year’s was, I’d have to – let me write
that down in the book that I don’t have here.
CP:
It was pretty good last year.
TS:
Oh the skiing was good, yeah! It was slow coming. We didn’t open until the 22nd of
December!
CP:
Right.
TS:
I remember one year, ’77 or ’79 we opened the 23rd of February and closed the 15th of
March. That wasn’t too prosperous; we didn’t make too much money that year.
CP:
Um-hmm, right. So you save your money during the good years for when you have lean
years?
TS:
Well some people save for a sunshiny day and we save for a rainy day.
CP:
Yeah?
TS:
But you know, it’s been good to us. And so I’ve been wise with our money, we’ve tried
not to overbuy; we’ve tried not to over-speculate. Yeah, we’ve made mistakes; will we
make more? Oh yeah, I’m sure we will. If we do anything we will, if we do anything
we’ll make mistakes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the – wish I could look
back on this in 10 years and remember what we talked about. But I think the ski area will
continue to grow, as long as we have winter. As long as we market it right and treat our
people right – and that’s part of marketing – and provide a fair service for a fair price.
That’s what it’s all about. If you didn’t like hotdogs you got a Joe’s, you wouldn’t go
you’d go somewhere else won’t you?
CP:
That’s right.
TS:
Yeah, that’s right. And our transportation any more, yeah it’s kind of expensive, but it’s
not very far to Powder Mountain or Snowbasin, or Wolf Mountain, or you get a little
further down into Salt Lake. But it doesn’t seem like it bothers people to drive that far
anymore.
CP:
Yeah, well is there anything that you’d like to add?
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
32
�TS:
No, I’ve probably said more than I got knowledge to say. But if you have any questions –
why, the phone’s here. Don’t be afraid to call.
CP:
Sure.
TS:
Don’t be afraid to call. And I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of stuff, but you know, you can’t
live a lifetime in two hours.
CP:
Right, right. Well, it was good to talk to you.
TS:
It was good to talk to you and good luck to you with what –
[Stop recording]
Land
Use
Management
Oral
History
Project:
Ted
Seeholzer
Page
33
�
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Where else is this found?
Give the URL for the item, if it is in another respository (like CONTENTdm)
<a href="http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337">http://digital.lib.usu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/LoganCanyon/id/337</a>
Digital Publisher
List the name of the entity that digitized and published this item online.
Hosted by: Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library
Conversion Specs
Recording equipment: Marantz PMD660 Digital Recorder
Transcription equipment: Power Player Transcription Software: Executive Communication Systems
Date Digital
Record the date the item was digitized.
2012-10-17
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ted Seeholzer interview, 19 November 2008, and transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Ted Seeholzer is the owner of the Beaver Mountain ski area in Logan Canyon and talks about the history of Beaver Mountain (which has been owned by his family since its inception), and his varying roles with the ski resort – beginning in childhood. He also discusses his interactions and relationship with the Forest Service and School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) over the years.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932-
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cole, Bradford R.
Pumphrey, Clinton R., 1984-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Interviews
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Family
Seeholzer, Ted, 1932---Career in the Ski Industry
Beaver Mountain Ski Resort (Logan Canyon, Utah)--History
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Fishing--Utah--Logan River
Hunting--Cache Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Shupe, Don
Skis and skiing--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Ski resorts--Utah--Logan Canyon--History
Seeholzer, Harold
Seeholzer, Luella
Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Utah State University. Forestry Field Station Camp
Roads--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Snow and ice control--Utah--Logan Canyon
Roads--Widening--Utah--Logan Canyon--Citizen participation
Skis and skiing--Utah--Beaver Mountain
Snowboarding--Utah--Beaver Mountain
Utah. School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration
Cache National Forest (Utah and Idaho)
United States. Forest Service
Land use--Utah--Logan Canyon
Winter festivals--Utah--Logan Canyon--Anecdotes
Skis and skiing--Utah
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Oral history
Interviews
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Logan Canyon (Utah)
Beaver Mountain (Utah)
Sinks (Logan Canyon, Utah)
Bear Lake Valley (Utah and Idaho)
Mount Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Logan (Utah)
Cache County (Utah)
Utah
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1930-1939
1940-1949
1950-1959
1960-1969
1970-1979
1980-1989
1990-1999
20th century
2000-2009
21st century
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Utah State University, Merrill-Cazier Library, Special Collections & Archives, Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection, FOLK COLL 42 Box 4 Fd. 5
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Inventory for the Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection can be found at: <a href="http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php">http://library.usu.edu/folklo/folkarchive/FolkColl42.php</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reproduction for publication, exhibition, web display or commercial use is only permissible with the consent of the USU Fife Folklore Archives Curator, phone (435) 797-3493
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Logan Canyon Land Use Management Oral History Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FolkColl42bx4fd5TedSeeholzer
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
19 November 2008
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2008-11-19
Is Version Of
A related resource of which the described resource is a version, edition, or adaptation. Changes in version imply substantive changes in content rather than differences in format.
Logan Canyon Reflections